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  • File : 1301370039.png-(266 KB, 820x1060, Shadowrun_Ork_by_Junabelle.png)
    266 KB Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:40 No.14401091  
    How can I break shadow run 4e with 400 points using the point buy system? We have a guy who regularly goes out of the way when playing other games to break them so I want to return the favor. Any help would be awesome.

    pic not related, just some cyber punk girl
    >> LaBambaMan 03/28/11(Mon)23:43 No.14401108
    Can't you not break it? Y'know; be the better man an' all that jazz.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:44 No.14401113
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:48 No.14401157
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    >be the better man
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:15 No.14404490
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    This. Find every single bonus to social skills in the book - include them in your character.

    Make sure you are a Dryad or SURGEd human / metahuman with glamour, max charisma, empathy software, tailored pheromones, etc etc.

    Watch as formerly hostile enemy characters have their brains melt out their ears while people of any race, gender, creed, sexual orientation, political affiliation, alive, dead, whatever - cream themselves at first sight.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:18 No.14404505
    As has been pointed out in several meta-threads throughout the past week, /tg/ is terrible at game crunch for most games. Coming here asking for anything but advice on the fluff is a Bad Idea (tm).
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:31 No.14404546
    ... except that this advice is legit.
    >> Sapient beings will always respond with awe, deference, and kindness to the character
    That's glamour, as well as a +3 to social skills tests.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:34 No.14404559
    This is bad advice, your dm will simply ignore social situations and/or skill roles.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:42 No.14404597
    Face is a legitimate party role, and your G M now has reason to ramp up situational difficulty and get the face to talk to people higher than one step above shit shovellers.

    Don't rag on something just because the G M you happen to be thinking of sucks.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:45 No.14404615
    This is a thread about breaking things.
    If your breaking advice does not work in this situation, then it is bad.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:47 No.14404626
    whatever dude. 1/10

    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)08:47 No.14404629
    I hear someone calling my name.

    Just a second, I'll think of something nasty.

    If you'd like, I can actually make the build, but off the top of my head.

    Body 10 troll, with Heavy Milspec Armour (With ruthenium and thermal masking and every other armour resistance thingy), and ballistic sheild, and rating 4 bone density increases, and a trauma damper with platlet factories.

    You'll have 40 or so dice for damage resilience tests, and the first two points you take each time are negated.

    So if you get all your dice, you'll need to take around 16 or so damage in one go before you take a single point of P damage.

    So looking at arsenal, that's a light cannon. IFV sort of thing. You can also take hits from MBT cannons in a punch.
    >> Loch !!GzWmGH6V4eu 03/29/11(Tue)08:50 No.14404640
    The real problem with Face builds in general is that they're only as good as the person they're talking to. You can have all the charm in the world, but it doesn't matter if the gormless mook you're talking to doesn't know anything. Any baddie worth the name will have armies of goons and control information within his own ranks.

    If you can get access to the CEO of a AAA Megacorp, that's one thing. Otherwise, you're lucky if Tommy the Minion even knows what's on the next FLOOR, and even if you can find his Lieutenant and talk to him, your influence and rapport is only lasts as long as it takes for the man behind him to put a bullet through your windpipe.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)08:51 No.14404647
    That's also without any sort of reaction bonus. With reaction 6 (reaction 4 + level 2 wired reflexes), as well as a synthacardium level 3, along with Athletics ground level 4, you can do gymnastics dodges when you're choose not to attack. You'll have agility 8 (4+rating 4 toner), so that 8 along with 7 gymnastics should be able to dodge at least 4 hits per shot, at least.

    And that's WITH your armour on. Gymnastics dodge would NOT get a penalty, because the agility/reaction debuff for too much armour accounts for that already, and due to your body of 10, you have no penalties from that sector.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)08:53 No.14404655

    Exactly. Social stuff is too easy to cock-block your way through. Same problem with invisible flying instadeath mages.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:53 No.14404657
    Edge 8 - do 8 impossible things each day/run/session
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:53 No.14404659
    You forgot gel packs in your armour, form fitting body armour underneath and either some form of skin armour or cyberlimbs with armour to add to it.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)08:54 No.14404664


    That build's contingent on edge regeneration, and the GM can just trollface up and declare that you get it back when he feels like it, or after attaining significant personal goals, rather than each session.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:55 No.14404673
    Use all the rules in the book that are glossed over.
    Such as the rule where you can pointbuy additional starting money in the form of dice.
    Or the rule about customized cyberware which allows you to get a limb way past 6 without a cybertorso..

    Or just make a mage with high ranks in unarmed combat, and pour everything into the deathtouch spell. Overcast it to hell, take maybe 1 or 2 stun, and deal upwards of 20 damage resisted only by willpower.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:56 No.14404675
    The GM can fuck up every 'broken' build.
    Oh try Binky - but its not possible with 400 BP.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:56 No.14404679
    >> You can have all the charm in the world, but it doesn't matter if the gormless mook you're talking to doesn't know anything. Any baddie worth the name will have armies of goons and control information within his own ranks.
    Your assumption is you waste time talking to gormless mooks. Why, when you're a walking brain loosener? Why don't you have any decent contacts or ability to speak with someone important? Is it because you're building a strawman argument. Yes yes.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)08:58 No.14404683

    >gel packs
    Doesn't stack with milspec, although fullbody + lined coat + helmet is the staple of pretty much every other sammy build I make.
    >skin armour
    Not worth it, essence and cost wise.
    >Cyberware armour
    Can be useful, but stacks with everything else, and takes up valuable capacity you can better use for other things. In most cases, you need it for other stuff, like Spurs, enhancements, customisation, or sensors.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:58 No.14404685
    Close combat, in a setting where a AK-97 is available for everyone. Sounds like a good idea.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:00 No.14404695
    Possession-based mage or simply a connection with 6/6 rating.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:00 No.14404697

    Not true. Remember, we're assuming the GM's going to try to prevent this sort of thing. That's going to throw a lot of problems.

    That, and the errata seriously nerfed pornomancer builds.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:01 No.14404704
    Your invincible troll-tank still falls to magic, screech rifles and the like - just like anyone else.
    Probably easier, considering how much effort you put into making him bulletproof.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:04 No.14404719
    >> Remember, we're assuming the GM's going to try to prevent this sort of thing.

    Nope. I'm assuming the GM isn't a vindictive pendejo, screens builds before sheets are written up and is imaginative enough to run with most given concepts.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:05 No.14404723

    >limb past 6

    Why would I need to do that when I can get my agility to 9 without that crap?

    Close combat is quieter, and it's easier to get through their armour. Sneak up and shiv is often better than sneak up and shoot twice.
    >possesion based mage
    Fuck that, no-one should allow those.
    >6/6 contact.
    I'd be very skeptical about this as a GM, personally. That's like CEO of a AA, easily.

    This is correct. He still dies like a bitch to a stunbolt. Part of the strength of Shadowrun, honestly.

    But that CAN be fixed. Smoke + radar sensors easily block LOS. Personally though, I'd just keep a friendly mage nearby to provide magical cover, and try to frag any mage I see first. He needs LOS to target me with armour-bypassers.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:05 No.14404725
    +1 natural armor

    body 10
    willpower 6

    tough as nails 3 quality +3physical

    cyberskull - armor 1/1 + 1physical
    cybertorso - armor 2/2 + 1physical
    cyberarms - armor 4/4 + 2physical
    cyberlegs - armor 4/4 + 2physical

    ceramic bone lacing - +2 body against damage - armor 0/2

    form-fitting body-armor full suit 6/2

    riot control armor 6/9
    riot control helmet 1/2

    damage roll = 12
    ballistic armor = 25
    impact armor = 27
    physical condition monitor = 22
    mental condition monitor = 11

    you can probably go even higher than that
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:07 No.14404736

    The OP said that he likes to break other games, so I suspect that he WILL be on the lookout for this sort of shenanigans.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:09 No.14404746
    whats this about invisible flying instadeath mages?

    the party mage in the new game im running just took
    Mind Probe
    Improved Invisibility

    should i be worried?
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:09 No.14404749

    I think your troll might have cross over the death threshhold, essence wise. Either way, he'll have inferior stats and no fancy cyber. That includes wires of any kind. You'll also be taking agility/reaction hits. Pretty serious ones.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:10 No.14404758
    >>so I want to return the favor

    So that instead of having one guy in the group fucking things over every now and then, you have two guys taking turns to make sure things are fucked up all the time?
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)09:11 No.14404762
    Don't fuck over the other players cause you're pissed at this guy. If you really feel the need put laxatives in his coffee or something, don't do something that has collateral effects on other players.

    That said, there's a couple of RAW y-u-do-dis builds out there. Go extreme social adept aka pornomancer, go Channeling Qabbalist with Krav Maga, go strength-amped Bowtroll, buy a Connection 6 Loyalty 6 contact and call up Lofwyr on the weekends to go see Deutschenfussball or something. Pack stick and shock ammo and form fitting body armor. Play a hacker that does all your hacking in AR. Take your pick.

    Alternately, visit the Dumpshock forums for like, five minutes. This is what they do.


    You can't ignore social situations in Shadowrun. Ya just can't.


    Surprisingly, it is. Not everyone carries assault rifles around indoors. If you're playing in Phnom Penh or Chicago, your criticism carries weight. If you're running in Neo-Tokyo or Tenochtitlan, melee is where it's at.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)09:12 No.14404771

    Not if he failed to take the Improved Reflexes spell.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:13 No.14404772
    nope essence is still 0,04
    if you got that much armor you don't need wires
    he get's no penalties for armor
    and has still 150+ BP to spent
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:13 No.14404776

    Bahahah, yeah, you're fucked. Mostly. He didn't take enhanced reflexes, though, so you should be alright.

    Actually, hold that thought. If he took sustaining focii, then you're in trouble.

    I have a mage ATM that has 3 force 3 foci, and when we go into potentially nasty situations, he powers them up with force 3 reflexes, levitate, and improved invisibility.

    So everything needs 3 successes on a willpower check to even see the bugger, he doesn't really show himself when he throws near-lethal stunbolts (for almost no drain, 95% of the time), and he can easily stick to cellings, etc, making him a decent infiltrator.

    Honestly though, without invisibility, most mages are pretty squishy. Radar and Ultrasound particularly will fuck him up badly. AOE weapons, flame weapons, astrally perceiving mooks, spirits, etc.

    Don't forget that cover works against astral stuff, including thermal smoke. Every corpsec and solider WILL be trained in how to fight mages. I imagine that it's essential in the 6th world.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)09:14 No.14404780

    Those aren't hax builds, those are awesome builds. I fuckin' love Edgemonkeys. It's BEYOND THE IMPOSSIBLE all the fuckin' time.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:15 No.14404786
    And you think troll-tank is more likely to pass the exam than flying death invisible mage or pornomancer?

    Meh. Might as well go with covert ops // high agility. More likely than Stompy the Ruthenium Polymer Tank.
    Unaware == no dodge rolls, attacks are a flat success test.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:16 No.14404794

    Wouldn't that get dull, though? Having a character that doesn't really have a speciality, just waltzes into situations and uses edge to bridge everything?

    >captcha: Simón

    Well timed..
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:16 No.14404796
    that's not broken

    add bad luck and you got max payne
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:17 No.14404800

    Unaware is useful close up, but AFAIK, most sammies are rolling enough dice that it's not a big deal. A lot of the damage comes from the burst bonuses anyway, rather than straight successes. So Mr Sammy with 9 agil and 6(speciality) in his chosen field is probably going to be busting heads even if they have their full reaction.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)09:18 No.14404805

    Their specialty is desperation, which is totally in genre.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:18 No.14404810

    Hah. Actually, I can see that working.

    Actually, reminds me of Rock from Black Lagoon. Fuck me, I'm so doing this.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:22 No.14404831
    >> Every corpsec and solider WILL be trained in how to fight mages. I imagine that it's essential in the 6th world.

    Only if your SR shits mages out like a bad curry. As a matter of fact, your SR sounds very much geared towards supporting your favoured build, which isn't what I've seen in the books or from people who actually play the game & post on the SR forums.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:24 No.14404838
    molly you got skype or steam or something.. need to talk to you about this and my players are all fa/tg/uys
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:24 No.14404839
    Magic is a reality in the 6th world. People know about it. It's powerful enough that people who fight for a living NEED to know how to counter it.

    It's like training soldiers in counter-sniping tactics. It's going to happen at some stage.

    >my favourite build

    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:26 No.14404850

    I do have steam.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:26 No.14404852
    so what is it? :/
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:26 No.14404855
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:27 No.14404863
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    You are playing a roleplaying game.
    A roleplaying game is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development. Actions taken within the game succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.

    You don't follow these rules and guidelines and spoil everyones fun.
    Why is that Leon?
    >> Loch !!GzWmGH6V4eu 03/29/11(Tue)09:28 No.14404867
    Optimizing in SR is all based on how much of it your GM is willing to accept anyway, since if he bloody well feels like it he can destroy anything and everything using just the core book.

    Also, I played a basement-dwelling mage last week. Spent the whole time astral and generally didn't give a fuck about those poor meatsacks on the ground. Why spend BP on Increase Reflexes when you can get 3 IPs by just being a magician in the first place?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:28 No.14404873
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:31 No.14404895

    Because that would mean that you can't affect most things. None of your regular spells work unless you're on the same plane as the target, other than astral perceivers.

    Nice concept, though. You stay safe at least.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:42 No.14404966
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    when I build a character
    I spend more bp on knowledge skills than you get for free
    I take contacts that suit my characters even if they are not beneficial
    I take negative qualities that make sense and actually hinder my character
    I don't take neg. qualities that won't ever affect him
    I don't buy skills at a higher level than what makes sense for the character

    you mad?
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)09:49 No.14405017

    Why shouldn't they be? It's a huge security hole if they aren't. Gangers aren't going to know what to do, rent-a-cops might struggle to remember their training, but anybody more professional than that should have some idea what to do. This isn't the Ghost Dance War anymore, the powers that be have wised up.


    To be fair, it's mostly spellcasting that's impaired. A build geared towards summoning and/or astral combat isn't going to be nearly as impeded. I had a player do this for months of game time, but that was largely to conceal the fact that her character was pregnant (she added that story tidbit basically to heighten the paranoia, and did a masterful job)
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:49 No.14405021
    Sure, they exist, but they're not everywhere or even commonplace. Your average grunt will know to stay out of LOS and a bit more, but beat cops and wageslave sec-officers aren't exactly motivated learners. Most won't see the worst shit - or they'll see it once and die / retire.


    Rock on.
    >> Loch !!GzWmGH6V4eu 03/29/11(Tue)09:50 No.14405025
    Manifesting as an astral form is a simple action. Then you can sling spells at anybody you want and physical attacks can't touch you. Mind you, it's still a bitch when you have to summon spirits just to manipulate physical objects, but it's a small price to pay for personal invulnerability.

    My GM even tried to scare me by sending a Latent-Awakened street sam after me. Poor bugger never had a chance.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:51 No.14405030
    Unless I'm mistaken, he would take -2 to agility and reaction rolls, as his Ballistic armor is 5 points about his body x 2.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)09:52 No.14405038

    Manifesting doesn't work that way. It's not like spirit Materialization, you're still fully astral, you just can communicate with the material. You can't be casting spells at mundanes that way.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)09:57 No.14405070


    Your IMAGE is physical. Still can't cast spells at physical people.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)09:59 No.14405085
    GM actually allows milspec armor somewhere? Here, we could probably take it in char creation, but good luck trying to keep it...
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:02 No.14405112

    Yeah, I personally don't allow it. It's too easy to break.

    And you CAN get it, with the restricted gear merit. Lets you take anything up to AVA 20.

    I usually used it to get good cyberware, or perhaps a good sniper rifle for a shooter-style character.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:10 No.14405162
    armor from cyberware doesn't count
    only worn armor

    actually he could wear another riot armor over his riot armor
    but that would be silly
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)10:10 No.14405164

    Yo dawg I heard you like armor...
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:16 No.14405195
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    mfw 8 dice are a pretty big amount in my group
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:21 No.14405223

    Cyberlimb armour is Levelx5 Ava. So you can't get 4 armour in each limb at chargen. And he has 23 total armour. So that's a -2 to both agil and reaction.

    He's only got 1 IP a turn. He's taking a lot of hits, and can't actually attack all that much. He doesn't have eyes or ears cybered, and his cyberlimbs are still at level 3 for everything.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:23 No.14405235

    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:26 No.14405258
    no, but you can get 2 armor in each limb (exept head)
    cyberarmS obviously means there are two of them
    the limbs still have lots of capacity

    again, cyberware doesn't count for encumberance
    and trolls have infrared-eyes

    IP aren't that valuable if you can't do damage
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:28 No.14405270
    >implying you need all that crap to rock in combat
    1 IP, highest augmented attribute 6, leather jacket and still rockin' bitches
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:31 No.14405283

    Possibly, but if you're fighting an opponenent of comparable skill, and he's wired and auged and you're not, then victory is his, 9 times out of 10.

    IP's are amazingly good, if only for the advantage they bring against multiple enemies, or in surprise situations. Since Shadowrun combat is so lethal, it's best to kill quickly. Something's gone wrong if the combat lasts for more than a few rounds.
    >> Morrowindfag 03/29/11(Tue)10:32 No.14405286

    Either she is huge or that is the TINIEST little Spas-12 I've ever seen.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:33 No.14405291

    Infared. But not low-light, radar, ultrasound, enhanced, magnified, or filtered.

    And damage isn't hard to deal. Any sammy who's spending that amount of points on armour can easily hack out Automatics 4(Assault Rifles), a few decent points in agility, and get an Alpha with some Exex rounds.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:35 No.14405299
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    problem officer?
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)10:36 No.14405307
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    But you can get all your vision enhancements taken care of with external vision augs. The shades, gurl, the shades. Get some ultrasound with your smartlink and go to town.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:37 No.14405311

    Not all of them, the AVA is too high. That's also bulkier, more noticeable, and more fiddly.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:38 No.14405314
    Although a set of shades, implanted or otherwise, is essential.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:38 No.14405317
    not everyone is a powergaming min/maxer you know?

    remember when a troll bodyguard or a streetsam with reflex booster 2 was considered a boss fight?
    probably not
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:39 No.14405326

    Who said anything about minmaxing? That's the rule of the street, omae. Be born better, get made better, train better, talk better or get gunned down.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:41 No.14405336

    Also, you have a standard cyberpunk archtype that makes heavy use of augs. They're not OP, but they're certainly given an advantage in a fight. Doesn't take min-maxing to get that advantage, if you're willing to pay the price in essence and nuyen and psychological health.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:43 No.14405348
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    that's what powergamers actually believe

    the actual rule of the street is: there are no rules
    here have some cyberpunk rules too
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:44 No.14405351
    Nope. But then, I never played SR to the dungeon run template.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:46 No.14405364


    Enjoy your permanent 80s vibe.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:46 No.14405365
    >implying I did
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:46 No.14405371

    You did mention boss fight.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:47 No.14405373
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    Want to break the game? Quietly let the other players know you're going to fuck with the GM. Offer to get food or something for all of them to make up for the time they're about to waste.

    Make a character with LOTS of money, mediocre skills, and a FUCKING TON OF EXPLOSIVES.

    Game starts. You. Detonate. Everything. Kill the party.

    And because of that talk you had with the other players, everyone just calmly shrugs, sets down their character sheets, "I guess game is over," and walks out.

    Game broken. GM will be all like, "WTF?"

    Do this. Look into your heart. You know this is what you want.

    Pic extremely related.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:47 No.14405374
    oh wow
    that's new
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:47 No.14405379
    Good rules to follow ... when you're playing Cyberpunk 2020, or anything pink mohawk. Not everyone does.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)10:48 No.14405388
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    As much as I love the 80s nostalgia, it's one thing to draw on it and one thing to let it chain you. I think SR4 struck a good balance.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:49 No.14405397

    But I LIKE having to make an STD call to hack things.

    Wearable modems, man. That's high tech, right there.

    I usually hide a FA-modded grenade launcher with White Phosphorous when I want to fuck with a GMPC.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:49 No.14405404
    >implying you need dungeons for boss fights
    next you'll tell me you need miniatures to roleplay
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:52 No.14405427
    >> implying you need boss fights in a high tech, low life setting
    Yeah, good luck with that, stranger.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:54 No.14405451

    Bonus points if the GM cries or begs you to come back.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:55 No.14405456
    Agreed. Besides, if I wanted 80s cyberpunk then I'd play something without elves and wizards in it, like CP2020.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)10:55 No.14405457

    We go along with it.

    Although it is pretty amusing to have to plug in a modem at the targets workstation when we need the hacker to hack into their place.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)10:59 No.14405485
    Roy Batty (Blade Runner)
    Street Preacher (Johnny Mnemonic)
    Gunther Hermann and Anna Navarre (Deus Ex)
    Drake (Shadowrun - Never Deal with a Dragon)
    Revolver Ocelot, Vulcan Raven, Psycho Mantis, Sniper Wolf, Liquid (Metal Gear Solid)
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)11:02 No.14405500
    of course you do you moron
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)11:04 No.14405519
    Point is, if it's a boss fight, you've painted yourself into corner with terminology, as far as interactions go.

    But maybe that doesn't count for shit in your group. Whatever. You don't need to sell me the big showdown.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)11:10 No.14405550
    >you've painted yourself into corner with terminology, as far as interactions go
    don't be silly
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)11:14 No.14405568
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    Picture related. It's you, looking at me from last century. See you if you get here.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)11:28 No.14405644
    I personally like the AR hacking specialist technomancer for sheer fucking around and annoying folks. Mix that with a some heavy duty machne spirits running drones of various types for shits and giggles and it is a laugh to play.

    Not so much a broken character but able to mess with things very well and cause no end to trouble for friends and foes alike.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)11:31 No.14405668
    Ok, i'm pretty new to SR so I have a technomancer question: Do technomancers need glasses/goggles to view AR?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)11:33 No.14405679
    There's an adept hacker posted on the SR forums that does pretty well for itself in AR, too. (iirc)
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)11:36 No.14405702
    nope. many people thought technomancers were simply hallucinating when they first started to manifest their abilities
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)11:36 No.14405705

    Been ages since I played any (just after 4th ed release I believe) but I don't believe so.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)11:37 No.14405709

    Nope, they just trip balls
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)11:41 No.14405732

    Could be interesting. Inefficient, but interesting. There's a lot of useful cyberware avaliable for hacker types.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)11:48 No.14405772
    Efficient as fuck, actually. You get to improve skill at 0,25 essence. You can be god at cybercombat.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)11:50 No.14405788
    battletank adept

    reaction 6 (8)

    pilot ground craft (tracked) - 6 (8)
    gunnery (artillery) - 6 (8)

    improved ability 6 (ground craft)
    improved ability 6 (gunnery)
    improved reflexes 2

    24 dice to tank
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)11:50 No.14405794

    Shit, that's right, it's only .25 for noncombat.

    Christ. That's evil, actually.

    Although BP wise it might get a little hairy. Do you have the BP for gear and magic points?

    Hmm. You could easily have 3 to each hacking skill.

    ..or, 4IP and 6 extra skill in noncombat to throw about. Negates black hammer applications at least.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)11:53 No.14405818

    If he needs BP for gear he can take In Debt. That shit works miracles.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)12:05 No.14405890

    What about the control rig, though? That needs to be implanted.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)12:06 No.14405904

    It's useful, but if you're getting high grade programs, plus other Commlink stuff, it adds up pretty quickly.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)12:09 No.14405916


    p. 187 Improved Ability
    The first paragraph should read:
    “This power increases the rating of a specific Active skill by 1 per level. A skill’s maximum modified rating equals its base rating x 1.5. Improved ability must be purchased for a specific skill, not a skill group.”

    So your max skill is 9. Just use those 6 unuseable points into say, Armorer and Automotive Mechanic (Treaded)

    You also can't start with 2 skills at 6.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)12:16 No.14405957
    I've not read WAR! yet. Did they include much in thr way of Military Vehicles?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:17 No.14405963
    god! look at you powergamers counting dice

    they should've capped everything at 1.5 including modifiers
    so that humans for example can only have a total of 12 dice unaugmented and 18 dice augmented
    nothing more EVER
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:18 No.14405967
    >he pays for programs

    Take a specialization in piracy for your data search skill and all you need to pay for is browse. It'll take you ~2 days to find a VPN (if you didn't take one as a group contact), but after that you're entire kit is almost free.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:18 No.14405969
    you might want to get milspectech for that
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:19 No.14405976

    I don't do this with characters I actually play. I'm about to jump into a game with a shifter occult investigator with no firearms abilities and no body armor. I'll admit my Assensing pool is pretty damn good and I've got a fuckton of Contacts, but I'm not exactly breaking the game.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:21 No.14405986

    If someone was going to try to beat the system like that in one of my games I'd throw it back in their face and pull out the rules from Unwired that I've never used for costs to avert program degradation. But I've never had to do that; I don't understand where you guys find all these players who are just up and eager to violate the social contract of the game table all over the place. Just saying.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:22 No.14405996

    Note that pretty damn good is still in the teens range.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)12:27 No.14406034

    Seriously? Not to sound gamey or anything, but would the other Shadowrunner's really want a person on their team that can't handle themselves in a fight?

    Or am I missing the combat spells he also has?
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)12:27 No.14406043

    For my group, there's THAT GUY. Or at least, he's approaching that guy territory.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:29 No.14406050
    The program degradation rules are a pretty weak disincentive, since patching it up only uses the difference between the degraded and original rating to determine the threshold. Or if you get super draconian and rule that they can only be patching one program at a time, they can just pirate a brand new rating 6 copy.

    In fact, if we're using most of the Unwired rules, this is actually pretty much mandatory, since the only programs which don't degrade are legally registered and basically suicidal to hack with.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:30 No.14406060

    Well, I do have regeneration, so I can hit and run, and astral combat ability. She's a domestic dog shapeshifter using the wolf stats, so she can tear a throat out in melee. It's just at range or if somebody really gets the drop on her she's in trouble.

    I don't intend to have her in the thick of the fight, primarily. She's intended as a legwork expert and an investigator. 32 points in contacts, the ability to get visions of stuff just from hanging around the area it happened in, seriously amped Perception and Assensing pools and an acute sense of smell. So she does have some stuff going for her. It's the lack of body armor that's really the issue.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:31 No.14406069
    you missed "having ideas"
    it really helps, you should try it sometimes
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:31 No.14406071

    I tend to work with people whose /tg/ related experience is quite limited. Just a set of rules that thick would scare them shitless.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)12:32 No.14406077

    Well, that's simple enough to address, if the character was concerned about it. Underbody armour or a lined coat are both easy, cheap, and concealable options. Only issue is of course the shifting thing. Assuming that it's the sort of shifting that doesn't absorb physical stuff along with it.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:34 No.14406094

    Exactly, it's the shifting thing. Woman shifts to dog, trenchcoat (and clothes entirely) no longer fits. If dog wears barding and shifts to woman, that's bad too. This is a problem for regular clothing as well. I'll probably be naked a lot.

    Maybe I can convince the magician, if we get one, to take that Armor spell?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:39 No.14406136
    Could you justify PPP armor on a dog? Or squeezing a woman into dog-shaped form-fitting body armor?

    You should at least try, since both of those are pretty hilarious.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:41 No.14406150

    You know, I wonder if I could get the bonus from a helmet in both forms.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:41 No.14406156

    Those rules sure are a good way to get yourself killed like the idiot you are.

    I think anyone who is trying to GM anything with a criminal under world element should have to be at least savvy enough to have bought drugs and been involved in drug culture. Familiarity or unfamiliarity with this can make or break the believably of your game, especially when your players may be familiar with it and you're not.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:42 No.14406164
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    Ready for action!
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:42 No.14406165
    Here, I'll dump stats and you can lemme know what you think.

    The top lines are for a metamagic at character creation and something I worked out with the GM so I could have innately 2 IPs like the standard wolves in the core book (odd that shifters get only 1 by RAW)

    Domestic Dog Shapeshifter (Wolf stats) 55 BP
    Extra IP 10 BP
    Psychometry 8 BP
    Total for baseline 73 BP

    Body 3 (20)
    Agility 3 (20)
    Reaction 3 (20)
    Strength 3 (20)
    Charisma 3 (20)
    Intuition 4 (30)
    Logic 4 (30)
    Willpower 3 (20)

    Basic Attribute total 180 BP

    Magic 3 (20)
    Edge 3 (20)
    Essence 6
    Other Attributes 40 BP

    Adept Powers
    Eidectic Sense Memory (.5 pts)
    Cool Resolve 2 (.5 pts)
    Enhanced Perception 4 (1 pt)
    Improved Sense (Flare Comp, .25 pts)
    Critical Strike 3 (.75 pts)

    Qualities -30 BP
    Adept (5)
    Common Sense (5)
    Perceptive (10)
    Dependent (-10)
    Records on File (-10)
    In Debt: Mafia, 30K borrowed, owe 45K (-30)
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)12:43 No.14406173

    A compromise might be a sustaining bracelet foci. or a collar, or something. Make it stretchy, and have an armour spell sustained by it.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:43 No.14406175
    Skills 142 BP
    Unarmed Combat 4 (16)
    Assensing 4 (16)
    Astral Combat 3 (12)
    Disguise 1 (+2:Cosmetic) (6)
    Infiltration 2 (8)
    Perception 4 (16)
    Running 3 (12)
    Shadowing 2 (8)
    Swimming 2 (8)
    Tracking 1 (4)
    Intimidation 4 (16)
    Computer 2 (8)
    Data Search 3 (12)

    Knowledge Skills 24 free ranks
    English N
    German 4
    Ojibwe 2
    Interest: MSP Parks and Wilderness areas 3
    Street: Paranimals 3
    Interest: Hunting 2
    Street: Local Area Knowledge (MSP) 2
    Street: Underworld Politics 2
    Street: Shifter policlub activity 2
    Street: Saeder-Krupp operations in the Twin Cities 2
    Professional: KE Police detective procedures 2
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:44 No.14406179
    Contacts 32 BP
    St Kate's chemistry grad student C2:L2
    Veterinarian C2:L2
    SK secretary C2:L3
    Shifter rights advocate C4:L2
    Maccabees ganger C2:L3
    Mafia soldato C2:L1
    Hunter C1:L4

    Gear 43068 Y – 30000 Y loan from Mafia = 13068 Y (3 BP)
    Fairlight Caliban commlink w/Novatech Navi OS 4500Y
    Sim Module +100Y
    Trodes +50Y
    Knowsoft: Criminalistics 5 5000Y
    Analyze 6 600Y
    Browse 6 600Y
    Edit 6 600Y
    Empathy 6000Y
    Facial Recognition 6000Y
    Lie Detection 6000Y
    Forensics Kit 500Y
    Fake SIN 2 (Legal activities, Evo, shifter) 2000Y
    Fake SIN 3 (Human, UCAS) 3000Y
    Fake SIN 2 (Shifter, AMC) 2000Y
    Contact Lenses 50Y
    Image Link +25Y
    Thermographic +100Y
    Vision Enhancement 3 +300Y
    Vision Magnification +100Y
    Earbuds 10Y
    Audio Enhancement 3 +300Y
    Select Sound Filter 3 +600Y
    Calculating her and her human charge's separately, since they don't live together
    1 month 4533Y
    Sadie: Comforts Low 2 LP
    Entertainment Low 2 LP
    Necessities Low 2 LP
    Neighborhood Low 2 LP
    Security 2 LP
    10 LP = 2000Y
    Girl: Comforts Low 2 LP
    Entertainment Middle 3 LP
    Necessities Low 2 LP
    Neighborhood Low 2 LP
    Security High 4 LP
    Not going to take qualities since she's not a runner
    13 LP = 3800Y
    +11000Y tuition a year counting 5000Y aid/12 months = 3800 + 1333 = 2633 Y
    total cost for Sadie to support them both = 4533Y/month
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:44 No.14406180
    >Those rules sure are a good way to get yourself killed like the idiot you are.
    at least I was having fun instead of planning how to not get killed the whole session
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:47 No.14406204
    This means that when you shift back you'll be a naked woman wearing a collar. That's probably not a very good thing depending on the tone of your game.

    Or the absolutely best thing, depending on the tone of your game.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:47 No.14406210

    And he's even got the goggles! I went with contacts instead since I thought that would work better.


    Now there's a thought! I'll look into that.


    Funny story, my players utterly failed at a simple drug deal for that very reason.

    Jukebox, Ojibwe dwarf lesbian razorgirl extraordinaire (player was a straight part-Ojibwe woman from northern MN, so it was totally legit): ...Hi.
    Kane the drug dealer: <turns around from his business conversation, looks at her expectantly>
    Jukebox: I'd like to buy some drugs.
    Kane: ....Who the fuck are you?
    Jukebox: Um...um...<blushes and shuffles off>
    Kane and his business partner: <look at each other, break out in laughter>
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:49 No.14406217

    Presumably she'll have AR clothes up so she's not naked to people in AR? Will that work do you think?

    The character grew up with a human family so she understands that there's a taboo against nudity, even if it doesn't cause her personal alarm one way or another. So she's probably put some thought into this.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:50 No.14406228
    >Dependent (-10)
    >Records on File (-10)
    >In Debt: Mafia, 30K borrowed, owe 45K (-30)

    RAW, you can't get more than 35 BP from negative qualities. If you've worked something out to houserule that, than nevermind.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:51 No.14406236
    >Adept (5)
    >Common Sense (5)
    >Perceptive (10)
    >Dependent (-10)
    >Records on File (-10)
    >In Debt: Mafia, 30K borrowed, owe 45K (-30)
    this doesn't work
    you can only have qualities up to +30/-30
    you have +20/-50
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:51 No.14406237

    I'm pretty sure that's net, isn't it? I mean, I don't think the GM knows or cares either way (considering I taught her SR4 and I didn't know the rule at all when I ran that campaign...)
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)12:51 No.14406241

    Well fuck, maybe I need to reread shit.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:52 No.14406250
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)12:56 No.14406286

    He's correct. 35 positive, 35 negative, separately.

    Also, it's better to take 2 ranks and a specialisation in perception than taking perceptive.

    Get the stealth skill group, because you already have 3 of the skills in it. Should be a bit more affordable.

    This is more game based advice, but possibly examine your magic score. 3 could really be better. Maybe drop a contact or two, you're already very well equipped in that area.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:56 No.14406289
    Does the dog carry the commlink around in it's mouth?

    Maybe you can have it attached to the collar, like the kegs you see Saint Bernards carrying.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)12:57 No.14406299

    It'll work, unless anyone has their AR set to 'slightly transparent".
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)12:58 No.14406301
    Curse you, Aero themes!
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)13:04 No.14406348
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    I just read the Milspectech book..

    What the fuck did I just read? Who put together this crap?
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)13:08 No.14406378

    All sounds like good advice. I partly just kept adding contacts because I kept having ideas for NPCs and how the character might get along with them; I'd flesh them each out a bit and in doing so flesh out the PC. But also I was just trying to get to an even multiple of five so I wasn't a point or two over or under 400, lol.

    Regarding the qualities: ffffuuuuuuu
    I only took perceptive to try to keep the net quality value to -35. I know it sucks, although since it amps Assensing and Matrix Perception as well, both of which the character would use, it sucks less than it might. I'm assuming that the requirement not being net is meant to discourage really schizophrenic character builds; I don't think this is one, so given that, I think, knowing my GM the way I do, she'd rather I pick qualities that describe the character and to hell with the costs, but at the same time I'd like to do this by the book. Maybe I'll reduce In Debt and pay for it with lowering attributes. But I really don't like that idea because with the character's background as a family farm dog (she's running to help the human daughter go to an expensive private school), it doesn't make sense for her to be buying a bunch of shit without outside help. I'll sleep on it.

    The skill recommendation makes sense though. If I'm going fuck the rules, then why take Perceptive? And if I'm not, then I don't need it to counterbalance the negatives anyways... I just don't know how I'd pay to up my magic score at this point.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)13:08 No.14406381
    >Presumably she'll have AR clothes up so she's not naked to people in AR? Will that work do you think?
    sure, but every hacker with at least an ounce of comprehension will block any such access to his AR
    so there are very few people actually affected by this
    mostly hipster teenies with always active ar probably
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)13:08 No.14406382

    Catalyst has been going full retard a lot since the financial troubles.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)13:10 No.14406391

    Their MBT flies.

    FLIES. Fuck me, and it has more armour than anything else out there. They have a body 4 drone the size of an MBT, and a Humvee variant that can't stop a rifle shot.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)13:10 No.14406397

    Honestly, I don't think she'd care if Underworld Hackers On Steroids see her naked. She just doesn't want said teenyboppers calling the cops.


    I kinda figured there's gotta be a way to make that trode net stay on her head. She's part border collie, she should have enough of a mane to affix that shit to somehow. This will, of course, translate into big black 80s hair with a massive white stripe in it in human form. I'm still deciding how big; Pat Benatar size or Patricia Morrison size?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)13:12 No.14406410
    you need to take the astral perception adept power if you want to assense as an adept or mystic adept
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)13:13 No.14406415

    Of course it does, if your rigger is driving it fast enough.

    But hey, that's still an improvement on WAR. I was lobbying for so long for a treatment of the hilltribe war in Laos and Vietnam they dangled in front of us in Shadows of Asia, and at this point I'm kind of happy I didn't get it. That's telling.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)13:13 No.14406418
    I want to get into Shadowrun, but can't get my head around the crunch.
    I don't know anyone IRL that is into this kind of thing.

    Is there any hope for me?
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)13:13 No.14406420

    I get that for free as a shapeshifter. I'm permanently dual natured, I can't even turn it off when I want to.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)13:15 No.14406428

    The chargen is the hardest part. Otherwise it's just dicepools. My whole group learned as we went, and it was rough, but we did learn it. Just don't sweat it if you fuck up, you know? And these were people, I mean, this girl that's GMing now, before my game she'd never done anything tabletop, just LJ RPs.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)13:19 No.14406462
    I want to get into Shadowrun, but everybody at my location plays nothing but 3,5E or Pathfinder.
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)13:19 No.14406470

    Check out daegann's character generator. It's very good, does all the math for you.

    The game itself is basically a more sophisticated version of nWoD.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)13:20 No.14406476
    At least you have that, I have to play all my games online and get like a month of sessions before it dissolves.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)13:26 No.14406539
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    >Underworld Hackers On Steroids

    I know that you are supposed to be total specialist in Shadowrun as generalist suck in general, but is it possible to be badass brawler who can kick troll's ass while being competent hacker.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)13:30 No.14406572
    >I know that you are supposed to be total specialist in Shadowrun as generalist suck in general
    first: that's total nonsense
    second: your grammar sucks supreme
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)13:32 No.14406587
    >is it possible to be badass brawler who can kick troll's ass while being competent hacker
    if the troll is a baby that is
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)13:36 No.14406614
    Been wanting to start up a Shadowrun game since the 90's but I've never known people who wanted to play and I've never learned. Holy fuck, this thread makes me wary about doing so now. I have the 2nd Edition book, but I'm thinking of getting the 20th Anniversary because I heard it was easier to learn/play. Any other things I should know or learn about? Especially on starting adventures, it seems like the ones out there suck
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)13:39 No.14406646
    4E isn't real Shadowrun.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)13:54 No.14406781
    Call the Waaaaamulance and ask where your 80's wires went.

    But seriously, Shadowrun is heavy on the fluff and the combat mechanics, in every edition, are shoddy. Barely balanced, vague, and numerous ways to make a simply unbelievable character.

    But now matter how you break the combat system, no matter what sort of combat master you craft, the DM can have him get gunned down by AAA security choppers the first time his fakeSIN fails to pass the bus station scanner. You might have to send progressive wave of bus attendant, mallcop, lonestar, and military against him until he breaks, but this is a dystopian world, they don't put up with terrorist shit. If the DM wants you dead, you're dead. DUH.

    So play along and try to have fun.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)13:54 No.14406784

    Don't let it dissuade you, I love the game. And 4e is a lot simpler to pick up. It's also less retro in general, whether or not you think that's a good thing.


    Oh no you di'int


    If you don't mind being a script kiddie, it's not hard to just up and buy a good link and good progs. Real hackers will laugh derisively, but you'll be quite well rounded.

    Alternately, there's an offbeat technomancer build out there using some of the echoes...
    Biowire gives you the equivalent of a skillwire system
    Acceleration gives you extra IPs
    And there's one other that lets you bring others into VR with a touch. So yes, you can get a rating 5 Kung Fu complex form, get 3 or 4 IPs in the meat, grapple somebody into the Matrix, and Black Hammer the fuck out of them. You'll still be able to hack, too. It's just a bit Karma/BP intensive, to the point of being quite difficult to make at chargen without having serious attribute deficits.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)13:56 No.14406799

    The combat mechanics are fucking stable compared to the Matrix shit. I haven't had much beef with the combat system other than too many fuckin' dice rolls.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)13:58 No.14406819

    And yes, the starting adventures suck, mostly. I don't think On The Run deserves the hate it gets, though, and I personally have a great deal of affection for the old Ivy and Chrome module, although it requires quite a bit of conversion. For new GMs and players, I'd go with On the Run without too many reservations.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)14:15 No.14406999
    I ran On The Run a week or two ago without much problem.

    Group ended up sticking their fingers in their ears and running back to Johnson the moment they got the disk. No curiosity, no willingness to negotiate with third parties.

    You know somehow, in the long run, I think they'll do just fine.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)16:10 No.14408017
    Read trough War. Guess it had some good stuff. Too bad most of gear introduced is the kind that no sensible GM will let players have.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)16:20 No.14408114
    Throwing weapon adept is a fairly powerful if not super broken build. Basically you can throw anything with the force (though not AP) of an assault cannon. Carry a deck of cards around with you and you are set.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)16:58 No.14408483
    A summoning expert can also be fairly broken, although no sane GM will let you regularly summon Force 6+ spirits.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)17:39 No.14408927

    >go Channeling Qabbalist with Krav Maga

    Jews are so fucking broken.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)20:24 No.14410202
    I only wish it wasn't stupidly expensive now, but I suppose 58 pages isn't that many to print out.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/29/11(Tue)20:44 No.14410358

    So true!


    So did mine. It's almost just there as a diagnostic for player short-sightedness.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)22:22 No.14411208
    This is a great thread and I don't want to see it die, so does anybody have the Attitude PDF yet?
    >> molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/29/11(Tue)22:51 No.14411481

    It's hardly broken. You can do similar damage with an Assault rifle build, easily. That, and his stats will likely be worse.

    He's more stealthy, but less killy, mostly.

    To the newbie higher up concerned about the system, it's a very stable, generally hard to break. The fluff gives you excellent flexibility in gameplay content, and the combat system is realistic, without being silly.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)23:57 No.14412166
    Yeah, but you can walk easy as you please into damn near anywhere. Gives you a lot of options for secondary build too.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/30/11(Wed)00:25 No.14412424

    Which says to me that its value depends greatly on the setting. In Lagos, where everyone who can walks around with an arsenal, that's not really too much of an advantage. In some cases, it might even be disadvantageous, since the urban predators will start shit if they think you don't look tough enough. On the other hand, in gun-free Neo-Tokyo, that kind of infiltration ability packed with deadly force is a killer combo.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)00:40 No.14412544
    My biggest problem with Shadowrun is you have to buy an enhancement to give yourself more actions. It's not a choice. Because everybody else, even NPC's will have 2-3 actions after a a bit.

    I find it kind of a bad design when everybody HAS to have this upgrade in one variety or another.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)00:44 No.14412572

    Take drugs. That'll get you at least 2. 3, if you start mixing meds, and in the long run, you'll be fine. Ish.

    I've not read the On The Run that comes with the Runner's Toolkit, and I've only thumbed some through Attitude, but the latter is giving me a lot of GOOD Sprawl Survival Guide vibes, which is my favorite 3E sourcebook. Target UCAS being my favorite 2E.

    And there's something to be said about a runner who goes around with a set of high-quality, heavy-stock tarot cards, flinging them with the force of at least a heavy pistol.

    >eaking plato

    Fuck yeah, eaking
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/30/11(Wed)02:05 No.14413324

    I wouldn't say everybody else. Your average gangbanger or rentacop doesn't have Wired Reflexes.


    My favorite 3e book was definitely Shadows of Asia.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)03:22 No.14413983
    Oh shit yeah. Mystic Adept with a Gypsy theme? I gotta throw that shit together.

    Regarding Wired reflexes, it may /seem/ like a requirment since its so useful in combat, but remember, this isn't DnD. You don't always end up in a fight. If you pull things off right (which happens, occasionally), chances are you don't fight at all. Yeah, if you're a combat character it's essential, but the high cost associated with it (in either essense or nuyen) makes it otherwise largely prohibitive. You go up to Wired 3, even with alphaware, and can afford shit else cyberwise. Meanwhile that other guy is stuffing enough chrome into him that he can blow you away wqith the grenade launchers in his cyberarms or the LMG he's got coming out the articulated weapon arm he's got strapped to his cybertorso.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)03:25 No.14414020
    The simple nature of the beast in Shadowrun is that you are going to wind up in combat at some point or another. The game is about corporate espionage, it's essentially an inevitability. Even one extra initiative pass is effectively doubling your efficiency in combat, it simply beats any comparable option for the resources.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)03:29 No.14414064
    You know what always bugged me about Shadowrun (4th edition, at least)? The idea that the characters are somehow unskilled punks or something stupid like that. At the 400 BP base, you're quite easily among one of the most talented individuals in your field, the mechanics of character creation very much encourage you to be so. So why are you being payed peanuts for incredibly dangerous work? Why are you considered an easily disposable asset? It's not like people that can blow Tir Ghosts away like redshirts (and yes, a starting character can very easily) are an everyday occurrence.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)03:40 No.14414181
    No one's forcing you to run. You could always get a nice 9-5 Day Job and live out a comfortable Middle-Class existance if you want.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)03:41 No.14414194

    Thing is, you can BE blown away just as easily, unless you make a specific point of building a tank troll like the one near the start of the thread - and you really aren't that representative of the elite of your field or profession. There are actually a large number of folks as good as you at your line of work - you're not commonplace, but you ARE readily replaceable. That's what all this tech and the relative commonality of magical talent result in - a dedicated person can make himself that good.

    Admittedly, I could stand to see the gap between starting characters and goddamn special forces widen a fair amount. That's definitely a weak point in 4E. But, then, on the flip side, a full-auto burst from an assault rifle will annihilate a Tir Ghost as readily as a runner off the street. Bullets still kill you no matter how much of a badass operator you are. Think Sam Fisher. Except everyone's like that, so it's a bunch of Sam Fishers with different talent sets trying to kill each other.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)03:47 No.14414267

    Actually, expanding on this - this is why I REALLY discourage out-and-out firefights in my games. Stealthy infiltrations, knives to the back, silenced shots, invisible mages, shit like that, that's almost always a superior option than trying to blast your way through a mission. If my players get in a gunfight, they've learned to try to make it a running one - toss grenades, spray suppressive, drop elementals, do whatever it takes and don't hesitate to attack, but don't actually stand and fight. The win condition isn't "the enemies are all dead." Odds are they outnumber you and you're on their turf, and even if individually you're better than their guys, five-to-one odds are still crap and bullets and 'nades will still reduce your badass gunslinger to so much meat. They've learned that if they have to fight to an objective, they should fight TO THE OBJECTIVE, not stop, kill everything and walk in leisurely afterward. Way I see it, four or five well-armed cyber- or magically-augmented people are still people, and most corporate and private security is almost as well-off and have them badly outnumbered. Straight gunfights in Shadowrun just do not make sense unless as a tool of last resort. Like I said - Sam Fisher, man. Sam Fisher and not the Master goddamn Chief.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)03:49 No.14414278
    Actually, come to think of it, you have enough money at character creation to buy a permanent low lifestyle with money to spare, so you could litterally retire day 1.

    And that's ignoring trust fund entirely.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:00 No.14414372
    Except you are special, most characters start with skill 5 in their area of specializing, if not 6 or 7. According to the core book, rank 5 is special forces or rangers; rank 6 is is the best of the best among special forces; rank 7 is fucking James Bond himself. If that doesn't make you fucking special, I don't know what fucking does.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:05 No.14414411
    Really, would it hurt Shadowrun so very much if the PCs weren't treated as utterly worthless? Just calibrate the focus of the game a little bit and pay them a bit better. Send them on shit that aint peanut runs and make them goddamn work for their money.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:06 No.14414414
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    I just thought up my next character. Actually, two. One's a retired (though not old - did a few successful runs, cashed in fairly young) runner who operates primarily away from the party as a face and a connection whore, but in times of dire need, can be convinced to pick up his gear and go target-shooting corporate security for the team, and the other is a technomancer who operates entirely from the Matrix - again, from the comfort of her own home. Not full-immersion lifestyle, too expensive - and again, this character could be a face operating away from the party if need be - but low or middle-class lifestyle and full-time Matrix support from afar.

    I like these ideas.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:10 No.14414450

    And yet, you remain less than unique. A fairly large number of units and factions exist that can deploy people like that reliably, and every Shadowrunner who doesn't get killed in his first three runs is just about that level. You're GOOD, no question - but there's nothing that makes you particularly unique when there are that many others out there similar to you.

    Again, I feel some larger gaps could exist, but on the flip side, a bullet to James Bond's head is just as effective as a bullet to some fuckin' guy's. That's the thing - you can be OPERATOR AS FUCK and still die like a bitch in one round's fire like every lesser mortal.

    In the end, though, I think you can do too much, too easily at character creation. It's easy to make yourself competitive with special forces units from the START, and that's fucking dumb.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/30/11(Wed)04:11 No.14414459

    Not all GMs pay peanuts, first off. I tend to figure if runners could make more money stealing cars, there would be no runners, and pay out accordingly. That doesn't mean it's a monty haul, they do gotta work for that nuyen, but corp/syndicate work, at least, pays off big. If you're hooding or working for low-end rad groups, that's less true.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:15 No.14414495
    I really don't think that's such a bad thing for the game. Sure it's kind of a pain if you were envisioning a game starring a bunch of street punks, but that's as simple as using Karma gen and bumping your starting Karma down.

    Anyhow, what I'm saying isn't that you're something incredibly special that deserves to have megacorps worshiping the ground you walk on. Instead I'm saying that you really don't deserve to be paid peanuts and treated like a disposable thug. Discrete assets with that kind of skill aren't the most common thing on the planet. Decent hitmen in this day and age certainly demand more than 5 grand for a job (as I recall was the sample pay offered for whacking someone) and certainly more than that for infiltrating a heavily guarded megacorporation facility that has resources that can compete with nations.
    >> Richard Motion 03/30/11(Wed)04:16 No.14414506

    That's not how you do it! If they reason they could make more money some other way, like stealing cars, they need to be pushed back into risking their lives for no respect and peanuts.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:17 No.14414517
    That sounds like a pretty shitty way to go about things. It demeans the entire point of playing a roleplaying game (which is being able to actually some element of agency and choice as an individual). I don't play roleplaying games so I can have my arm firmly twisted behind my back to dance to your tune.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:18 No.14414520
    I've got a job bank figured out so I can randomly throw 2-3 run options at my group at a time. It tells them a little bit about what the job involves and a 1-5 ranking of how much they're getting payed. I find it a good way of letting the team balance their financial needs with the sorts of missions they're willing to run. As a result, they generally have the option of a couple of lower-paying runs which are perhaps safer or they could take that juicy corp-run. The amount of money they earn is proportional to their willingness to put the work in.
    >> Richard Motion 03/30/11(Wed)04:22 No.14414550

    Oh, and you gotta throw in security forces that will spend millions of dollars of military hardware to stop the PC's from acting out, but won't stop, say, someone from attacking the PC's, or solve things like murders that you want your PCs to investigate.

    In case you can't tell, I'm actually criticizing this method of play by being sarcastic.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:23 No.14414561
    Ah, you'll have to excuse me in that case. Though I recommend that you consider in the future that inflection and body language doesn't translate well into text.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/30/11(Wed)04:24 No.14414565

    I think he was joking, bro.


    I just ask my players which of my run hooks they'd like to run with. Honestly, in my experience they always took what they found most interesting, regardless of pay, risk or other factors.


    This may have to do with your GM. Are you running with one of those guys who thinks betrayal and Johnson not paying you is an interesting plot twist no matter how often you use it? I'm starting to get the feeling he and I do things quite differently.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:27 No.14414597
    from experience I can say that most shadowrunners actually are worthless
    I played 4 runs at cons
    with longtime shadowrun players
    some of them were official supporters even
    3 of those 4 runs were solved completely by a buddy and me
    the 4th was a railroad ride for one dude who played a hacker who not only wasn't interested in the plot but also happened to be the most annoying asshole I ever met
    personally, not in character (well in-character too, since he was playing himself basically)

    point is
    most people played min/maxed 500BP builds and couldn't do shit except one thing they never did
    my buddy and me rocked everyone with our 350BP roleplay characters

    we even rocked in combat
    in this one run he snipered 7 dudes with called shots by the time the cybered combat monsters arrived and killed 1
    the remaining 3 were run over by me in my car

    they wouldn't even have been able to extract the needed data
    since, though they were cybered to no end, no one had a datajack let alone hacking skills

    even worse
    they already spent their share on equipment before we actually finished the run

    and then they dare to get mad when I sell the whole run (uncensored, including meetings) as simsense recording at two times the amount we got for the run and all they got is no money, one point of notoriety and a wanted status
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:37 No.14414669

    >>14414267 here. One of my regular players, and the guy who GMs the half or so of our Shadowrun games I don't, had a similar thought a while back. He and I built a homebrew organization which was basically a mercenary runner operation - it received jobs of varying nature, difficulty and pay and the runners, recruited into the organization based on word of mouth and merit and such and then sifted into tiers based on number of jobs completed, customer satisfaction, etc., could pick and choose whichever they felt like doing.

    The low-end recruits got the crap jobs because, well, the qualifications to get into the organization honestly weren't that high - the people running the show figured "Hell, best screening process is to have 'em run a few shit jobs and see who dies, who fucks up and who does it properly. Promote the latter, keep the fuckups on as grunts and hire 'em out as dumb muscle or something."

    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:38 No.14414678
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    The mid-tier and specialist runners (people with recognized skillsets and particular niches) got more varied, difficult and substantially more profitable jobs, and the guys at the top either had lucrative ongoing deals for corporate security consulting against non-aligned runners, substantial stock investments or the occasional ultra-high-end job paying them their millions - what made these guys unique is that their whole pseudo-Board of Directors were god-tier runners themselves.

    The whole thing is based on the corp-like organization of the Cutters gang, as described in the criminal underworld sourcebook whose name I can't presently recall. The runner "corp" is a significant presence in all our games and several generations of our runners are NPCs with them now. I think it's been our best idea, at least as far as Shadowrun-related stuff goes.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)04:43 No.14414733
    >>When I sell the whole run (uncensored, including meetings) as simsense recording at two times the amount we got for the run and all they got is no money, one point of notoriety and a wanted status.

    ... damn. You know what? The character I'm running right now is now running side-ops for extra money. This will be one of them. I've got a full cyberware suite. I'm just recording my runs and selling the product.

    Hell, I should probably expand my weapon-modding operation on the side. What's the point of Armorer and Weapon Design if you don't use 'em, right?

    I like making characters who have a life outside of running and partying. My runner is a goddamn entrepreneur.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)05:02 No.14414869
    whats a full cyberware suite?
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)05:07 No.14414906
    I would assume in this case a Simrig. Though it may include a Eye Recording Unit, Ear Recording Unit, Touchlink, Olifactory Booster, and Taste Booster as well. I'm really sure as to the limitations of the Simrig.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)05:09 No.14414923
    Come to think of it, it may refer to the Zeiss SenseSation Line of Cyberware Suite (Aug 49), also.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)05:37 No.14415118
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)06:41 No.14415573
    If you're doing a Simsense star as a character, consider taking Fame and Dayjob 1. Gives you 3k a month and the dayjob can represent the time required to edit stuff and post it on the 'trix.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)10:05 No.14416645
    question: what are touch links good for?
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)10:07 No.14416660
    I think they are like an implanted version of AR gloves
    I could be wrong though
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)10:08 No.14416664
    aren't they required for using skin links?
    like in smartgunned firearms and stuff?
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)10:14 No.14416724

    "Skinlink: With skinlink, a device is adapted to send and receive
    data transmitted through the electrical field on the surface of metahu-
    man skin. Though limited to touch, skinlink communication has the
    advantage of being protected from signal interception or jamming."
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)10:18 No.14416748
    Sorry to break it to you, but Shadowrun ended after third edition.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)10:23 No.14416773
    Do you still watch movies on VHS tapes?
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)10:23 No.14416775
    Stop trying to break Karl's Game.
    >> Awake !!5frcmwAIRBT 03/30/11(Wed)10:36 No.14416861
    I got drunk and built Gene from God Hand as a punching adept once. He lasted longer than any other Shadowrun character I've ever had. Nothing beats running around the future, punching mooks in the face with the force of an assault cannon and wearing an armored duster.

    Many good times were had, like the time he had the rigger hijack a helicopter so he could locate and punch his mortal enemy, a mage with a tendency to spam spirits. Nothing says SURPRISE like a pissed-off dude dropping through the roof on a flaming helicopter, preparing to punch your magic in the face.

    He lasted until the campaign ended a year ago. He died doing what he loved; punching fools in the face, and fighting spirits.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)11:11 No.14417138
    Be some kind of Troll, a Fomori for instance.
    You want rating 10 body minimum.
    Then you make sure to get two heavily customized, obvious cyber arms with strength 15 and agility 7 or something, and try to max out the body rating of them as much as possible as well.

    Take skills in unarmed combat, the aptitude skill to max it further if possible. But most all, aim to get the martial artist quality introduced in the Arsenal book.
    Focus most of everything on wrestling and subdual combat. But make sure to not neglect the martial art maneuvers, like the Finishing Move for instance which enables you to pick someone up to subdue them, and damage them in the same IP if you choose to.
    And your inherent strength of 15 will make up for quite the burst damage. But that is still just the small stuff of what you should be able to do with this build.

    To get back to the cyberware, The arms if possible, should both be optimized for unarmed combat. The pain editor is worth gold as it can keep you from going uncouncious while your stun track is filled.
    Give IP enhancement a rest, just take some drugs if a situation really calls for it, or just have the team mage cast a little IP enhancing spell on you to turn you into a massive combat monster about twice as mean as everyone else.

    When possible, you should get some military grade armor and rack up its strength enhancement and other available upgrades, as well as some autonomous pilot controled weapon mounts among other things. But even without that stuff, make use of your body rating and max out your available armor rating. That is, don't forget form fitting body armor, vitals protectors, and pretty much anything that stacks.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)11:12 No.14417149
    But the rule regarding Redlining is the real killer here. It enables you to take an action to increase one of your attributes of your limbs. Redlining can increase an attribute with as much as twice that of the original rating. That is, with rating 15 strength, you could potentially raise the strength by an additional 30, resulting in a crazy strength rating of 45.
    The downside of redlining however, is that by the end of each turn you are redlined, you suffer twice that of which you have increased, as stun damage by the end of each turn. That is, with an additional 30 strength through redlining, one would suffer a horrendeous 60 stun damage a turn, something one couldn't possibly resist.

    But keep in mind, with the paineditor you can still take over 20 stun damage without even going unconcious, and you can certainly 30 or perhaps even 40 damage if you don't mind going into overflow. (The nanomachines that can stabilize you and the ware that enables you to be in overflow aren't bad for that matter)

    But essentially, you can without doubt be the guy that can catch a speeding truck going right for you, getting into position, and then throw up the entire truck into the air and breaking it in half in the same IP.
    If you take some points into throwing, you should also be able to pick someone/somepeople up and throwing them on others in the same IP, or turn.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)11:59 No.14417475
    >But essentially, you can without doubt be the guy that can catch a speeding truck going right for you, getting into position, and then throw up the entire truck into the air and breaking it in half in the same IP.
    Picturing this gave me a slight erection.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)12:19 No.14417630
    Don't be modest ...

    AR gloves kinda suck arse when they just function as expensive trodes, though.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)12:27 No.14417697
    Any news on Attitude and Parazoology?
    I am very interested in Parazoology myself.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)12:28 No.14417705
    you know what's the actual real killer here?
    the gm can cap every dice pool at 20
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/30/11(Wed)12:30 No.14417731

    At that point, as a GM, I think I'd play the "your arm is super strong, but your body is not. You dislocate your arm" card.

    There's a point where it's better to play exated. Punching through a wall I don't mind. Playing catch with garbage trucks is another.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)12:31 No.14417737
    I call bullshit
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)12:33 No.14417758
    a cybertorse is required if a cyberlimb has more than +3 strength
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/30/11(Wed)12:35 No.14417775


    In stuff like DnD, you're at the beginning of your story. In nWoD, you're just some schmuck thrown in at the deep end. But not in Shadowrun. You're an "ex" something in shadowrun.

    Ex-military, ex-ganger, ex-specops, ex-corporate rigger, ex-hitman, etc.

    Yes, you do have a 6 in your primary skill, and 4's in your supplementary skill, but hey. That's the sort of game it is. You don't get unskilled people getting called Shadowrunners. They're elites.
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/30/11(Wed)12:38 No.14417804

    True. Doesn't mean said torso is strong enough to support a 3-5 tonne weight.
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/30/11(Wed)12:42 No.14417833

    >over 20 damage
    >not unconscious

    It converts into phys if you fill up your stun gauge.

    10 boxes of stun, plus say, 15 of phys, at most.

    40 damage is going to kill you outright.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)12:45 No.14417860
    Note the "can". The anniversary edition includes it as a suggestion -if- the group is either bothered by, or simply can't roll high dice pools.
    It is in no way -the- definate way to play the game.

    To further prove this point, it has been no secret that dice pools can reach over 20 with the previous books, and nowhere has high dice pools been discouraged. But most of all, despite all the critique the later books, War! even discusses high dice pools, and it was written after Anniversary.

    My personal viewpoint is, if the dice pool is higher than we have available dice, use one of our SR dicebots on either one of our phones or laptops.
    I would also argue, that although not always as relevant, capping the dicepools at 20 can more easily than not, mess up the balance of the game, especially when if introducing creatures/things on par with dragons.
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/30/11(Wed)12:48 No.14417883


    Is rolling really appropriate for that sort of threat, though? By that stage, you've really gone beyond the scope of what Shadowrun's about.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)12:57 No.14417939

    you'd rather have 4 in primary and 2 in supplementary skills
    shadowrun characters tend to be overpowered from the beginning because people min/max like hell

    connections? nah my characters knows a rating 6 fixer
    he can get anything he could possibly want from him alone
    he doesn't need friends
    he doesn't need any extra knowledge either
    that only costs valuable points I'd rather put in shooting
    oh and I better take those 35 points on flaws
    of course something that doesn't really hinder me
    that'd be stupid
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)12:59 No.14417954
    Truth be told, I didn't recomend the truck thing as "the way to go" so to speak. But I do believe you should be able to do it, and have a semi-decent chance of surviving. But I wouldn't be suprised if one would fall over afterwards.

    Regarding the rules and the body thing.
    There are the cyberlimb enhancements, and the customized cyberlimbs.
    Customized cyberlimbs are a lot more expensive, and harder to get. (raises the availability of the entire thing) But Customized Cyberlimbs are limited by the persons inherint attribute ratings and maximums, that is, a troll can have heavier customized limbs than an Ork, and an Ork can have heavier customized limbs that say a human, simply because their bodies are supposed to be able to take it as they are made to simulate their actual potential physique.

    The Cyber Limb enhancement things are a lot cheaper, but take up mod slots rather than raising the availability of the thing. They are also capped at 3 without getting a cyber torso.
    They are in most ways, better in every way, it is just that you need a torso for higher levels wheras Customized limbs are supposed to be able to simulate what your race could get with flesh limbs.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:03 No.14417985
    >You don't get unskilled people getting called Shadowrunners. They're elites.
    that's not how you spell one-trick-pony
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:06 No.14418010
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    Is it viable to play non-SURGEd mundane human face?

    If not I am gonna play troll intimidating adept...
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:06 No.14418018
    A lot of people get trapped in the Prime Runner syndrome with Shadowrun. Their starting characters need to be able to tangle with elite corpsec and thus they make really focused death gods.

    The problem is that if you already start off at the top end of the game you are cutting off a huge amount of potential gameplay. Furthermore in order to be challenged long term the GM has to throw even more ridiculous foes at you all the time. Milspec cyberzombies, dragons, etc.

    I'm not saying that type of game can't be fun but sometimes it's worthwhile starting as merely competent like a ex-cop or ex-ganger with lower dice pools and more a generalist build.

    You get to play around with more concepts early on without using the sniper assassin kill-team set-up every single game.

    The grimy and gritty aspects of Shadowrun are just as fun as playing the bleeding edge, in many cases moreso because you can start out as a disposable thug and eventually become a prime runner but starting out as a prime runner who falls on hard times and becomes a disposable thug isn't as fun of an arc for most gamers.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:10 No.14418042
    The stun and physical tracks are 8 + half their corresponding attribute rounded up.
    Say you have 11 in each track, and doesn't go unconscious by losing your stun track, then you can surely take 20 damage and still have your head up and running, to some extent.

    The 40 damage thing? Yes, that would really be pushing it. But as stated, that would be when accepting overflow damage. But it may be worth noting that wIth the right augmentations you can still go on for an half an hour to hours in overflow.

    But you have a number of overflow boxes equal to your body rating. If you have 10 body, then you will still have at least 10 overflow boxes. If you have 11 stun boxes and 13 physical boxes on top of that, it would still be 34 boxes. So taking 30 boxes is actually something you could do without dying.
    But yes, 40 would really be pushing it, but if you were to use edge, and resists enough damage, perhaps even with some ware being capable of shaving off a point or two by itself, then if lucky, you could possibly survive that as well, even though it would without doubt have been pushing it.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:12 No.14418066
    why shouldn't it be?

    I played a troll face once
    good fun
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:18 No.14418129
    When I adjust difficulty I rarely simply increase the power of the enemies, or at all.

    I usually play with the team's teamwork, number of skills necessary, number of objectives and time available etc. That sort of stuff. I usually also play with security and that, granted that focused anti-security runners can slice through thick security like butter, if many things are to be done at the same time, and things requiring many different fields of expertise, it still increases the chances of someone messing up, with something, somewhere, during a run. And no matter how good of a runner you are, you usually don't want to be caught, unless you can turn completely undetectable and survive on air.

    I usually prefer this approach, because it always gives the players their oppurtunities to really shine with their characters' strong points, while still having to struggle with tougher/trickier things (stuff outside of the team's main scope of expertiese), while trying to do all the objectives in the desired/required time frame(s).

    Say you have 4 or 5 players with 4 or 5 fields they are absolutely the best in. Let all of them shine with what they do and completely rule the action for a moment, but it should get trickier when they need to do stuff outside of their 4-5 fields, especially if time is a factor to be considered as well.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:23 No.14418167
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    Well, I play with a bunch of minmaxers, who are going to think that I am threat to their success, because my character lacks the extra 5 or so dice he could get if he was a dryad.

    Well,maybe I could get some move-by-wire II and let group's quadruplegic hacker upload my guy with any skillsoft currently needed so my dude would at least look usefult, problem is that there's a razorgirl has this implant...
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:29 No.14418232

    Tell them Shadowrun doesn't have to be run like CharOp D&D. As long as you are competent and aren't going with a special snowflake build then there is a lot of room to play in besides god-like elites and disposable wastoid
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:35 No.14418299
    It's not mundane, but you could always play a Technomancer face.
    Just rev that ressonance attribute up to 6, max out all those sensory softwares as complex forms, such as Empathy and all that shit.
    Be good at threading, so that you can rev that 6 up to a 12, and have registered sprites capable of jumping in and in order to increase the rating even further by their own rating, for an additional 6 rating or so. If you would happen to havve more than one Sprite, you could even have one of them with the Empathy form as an optional power, enabling you to do a teamwork tests with your sprite for some additional dice.
    And this still isn't coutning in your own capabilities, and there are some other sprite powers that could be situationally helpful for specific tests as well. And not to be speaking of submersions and available echoes like crafting widgets.

    Perhaps not the typical face, but you should be able to read others like open books. And this build is also mostly race interchangeable.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:36 No.14418310
    But these people enjoy minmaxing, that's the problem. They are pretty good at it adn generally manage to avoid being crippled by their overspecialization.

    Well, I guess troll adept with high intimidation skill and few power points wasted on intimidation is it then. Considering trolls get situational bonuses against most people they try to scare, he shoud be good at keeping random gangsters away and extracting information out of captives.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:36 No.14418314
    >You don't get unskilled people getting called Shadowrunners. They're elites.
    shadowrunners aren't the guys from ronin!
    or the mission impossible team!
    not even the a-team!
    they're crooks

    large dicepools don't make you elite
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:40 No.14418340
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    Does being cyberzombie make you "an elite"?
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:41 No.14418348
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:43 No.14418358
    What about being a motherfucking great dragon? Is it elite enough for Shadowrun?
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:44 No.14418371
    everyone can roll up a dragon
    there's nothing elite about that
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:46 No.14418380
    Not to shatter your expectations or antyhing. But to really minmax a troll intimidation adept, you should still Surge your character, get the omnious quality that makes people feel at unease next to you, as well as a few negative qualities such as picasso face or hunchback to get you an additional freak status.
    That is like, +8 dice right there I believe, if it wasn't more.

    But I think it is perfectly fine to not play min maxed characters, but if your friends were to call you out for not being a min maxed face, then they might call you out on not being a min maxed intimidator.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:47 No.14418388
    >everyone can roll up a dragon
    Irrelevant. The important thing is that not everyone in the setting is one.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:50 No.14418407
    Freak status isn't all that good as it means you also take distinctive style without any bonus points.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:50 No.14418413
    On second thought the freak status gave additional intimidation dice, but the picasso/hunchback thing was to give you an even greater boost than ordinary freak status.
    So combined with the omnious thing, I believe it would be more than 8 dice.
    I don't have my books on me though, so I can't really look it up.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:52 No.14418422
    not everyone is but everyone could
    believably playing one however is something not everyone can do
    same goes for elites

    >implying you could believably play a great dragon
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:52 No.14418428
    >You're an "ex" something in shadowrun.
    Only if you choose to make your character that way. The majority of my characters have always been novices.

    >The grimy and gritty aspects of Shadowrun are just as fun as playing the bleeding edge, in many cases moreso
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:55 No.14418446
    not everyone in the setting is playing a ball of arms man either
    however that doesn't mean playing one makes you elite
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)13:58 No.14418477
    >You're an "ex" something in shadowrun.

    Challenge time: be ex-highschool kid without being mage, adept, mystic adept, hacker or technomancer
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)14:01 No.14418500
    >Challenge time: be ex-highschool kid without being mage, adept, mystic adept, hacker or technomancer

    Okay, Decker
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)14:02 No.14418507
    remember when the protagonist was always the fastest/strongest/toughest?
    that's right

    there will always be someone better at what you do
    exceeding them through wits and creativity is what makes you elite
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)14:06 No.14418537
         File1301508393.jpg-(1.34 MB, 1940x2946, class_of_nuke_em_high_1_poster(...).jpg)
    1.34 MB

    be a graduate of nuke'em high
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)14:10 No.14418558
    Actually I made a college student once, or rather a student who had gotten to quit school.

    But I made him into a kind of a Spiderman on drugs type of characters specialized in armorer, gadgets and chemistry. And I also made him a helmet packed fully with all kinds of state of the art sensory hardware/software, as well as personal tacsofts.
    And I had him have his own ballistic grade form-fitting body armor weaved from his own web, from his own spiderglands. And I had him build webshooters, ala traditional spiderman, that way I could store up "web" ammo by having it grow from the glands, and store them in specialized casks used as ammo for the webshooters. And the shooters enabled him to shoot further, and with more power, or to spead it out to gain web shaped nets.
    And by mixing the web with various compounds in the ammo caskets, I could have some be stickier than others etc.

    He could jump about 5-10 meters upwards from standing still, 10-20 meters forward from running, and he could stick to walls thanks to the gecko ware. (And of course, swing around from shooting his webs at the right locations)

    He was a great special ops character, and his sensory helmet was awesome.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)14:19 No.14418620
    >You know what always bugged me about Shadowrun (4th edition, at least)? The idea that the characters are somehow unskilled punks or something stupid like that.

    The characters aren't supposed to be unskilled, even if they have a street/punk background.
    The game doesn't claim this anywhere and people who want to run lowlife campaigns usually start out with less than 400BP (although i'd prefer building such characters with the normal BP value, which works fine if you do it right).

    >So why are you being payed peanuts for incredibly dangerous work?

    PCs shouldn't be payed peanuts.
    If you don't earn out 20k+ per run, the game simply doesn't work at it's best.
    Not only for plausibility reasons, but also because the sams won't be able to upgrade their ware and compete with awakened characters.

    >Why are you considered an easily disposable asset?

    Deniable isn't exactly the same as disposable.
    If runners perform well and act professionally, they can easily become "developed assets", working for the same corp on a regular basis.
    There's well-known examples in the fluff where corps go to great lengths to keep a valuable runner operational after he has been messed up badly.
    You don't throw someone like Hatchetman away when he gets shot up, you put a fuckton of experimental cyberware into his dying body to keep him walking.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)14:27 No.14418696
    >Challenge time: be ex-highschool kid without being mage, adept, mystic adept, hacker or technomancer

    Take a high-rating group contact and Famous Family Name at the start of game.
    You are now playing as the son of a AAA megacorp exec who is a runner poser in his freetime.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)14:38 No.14418802

    This thread:

    >Troll Tank Guy

    While yes, the Troll Tank Guy dominates a brawl and the Pornomancer dominates conversation, the True Master of Shadowrun is the Initiated Manipulation Mage.

    Troll is strong? MM makes and animates a Golem.
    Troll is tough? MM gestures and the ground rises up to shield him. With enough dice, he can attack and shield at the same time.
    Troll Make Door? MM can sculpt anything.

    Pornomancer is charisma? MM simply Jedi Mind Tricks his way to success and riches. Admittedly, not as well, but...
    Pornomancer is persuasive? How about controlling the emotions of a room, or flat out Mind Control. "Put your gun in your mouth, pull the trigger" Mind Control.

    What else? How about also having incredible Summoning powers, in whatever for you choose. Being able to gain most of the power of a Pornomancer as well, if you want.

    The Manipulation Mage: Proof that while Shadowrun magic is very well balanced, they put too many fantastic effects in one school and many DM's don't actually understand how that power is balanced.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/30/11(Wed)14:42 No.14418838

    I know my PCs won't get out of bed for less than five grand each.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)14:50 No.14418904
    Anyone know which book the Krav Maga martial art is in?
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)14:53 No.14418933
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)14:55 No.14418948

    Ta muchly.
    >> monotreeme 03/30/11(Wed)15:22 No.14419179
    rolled 22 = 22

    you know...the DM can counter-break you, no matter what you build...

    thats the fun of Shadowrun...
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)15:27 No.14419215
    Are the new Shadowrun books like extra encrypted or something? Or have people's attitudes toward sharing changed?
    >> monotreeme 03/30/11(Wed)15:36 No.14419269
    rolled 52 = 52

    you want the runners toolkit?

    I got those...just a sec while I load them...
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)15:37 No.14419281
    Actually, I got that.
    There is the Parazoology book and the Attitude book however.
    >> monotreeme 03/30/11(Wed)15:41 No.14419326
    rolled 51 = 51

    yeah, I wouldn't mind getting those too....

    here's the runners tookit piecemeal for anyone that wants it in any case...

    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)17:08 No.14420152
    They are pretty bad, mostly rehashed contend from earlier releases.

    Apparently it sells bad, which us suprising to me considering that Germans cream themselves in extasy when they see SR sourcebook.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)17:57 No.14420613
    Germans prefer to cream over the sourcebooks they put out on their own nowadays.
    "They" being a pretty small subgroup of us that consists of about 3000 collectors.
    The average player doesn't seem to care about anything beyond the core sourcebooks in either country.
    On top of that, SR in Germany always had tons of casual players who never bought books anyway. In the 90s, SR was the Rhineland's equivalent to D&D.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)18:05 No.14420693
    What is the main difference between Parazoology and Running Wild?

    Running wild seems to be more of a "wild life of the world, and the city world's view on it!" than a beastiary.
    So is Parazoology more of a beastiary, or is it something else alltogether? (Or is it the same thing again?)
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/30/11(Wed)19:59 No.14421967

    Mostly they blow enough none of us sought them out, I think. I'd still like to see Attitude, though.
    >> monotreeme 03/30/11(Wed)20:43 No.14422366
    rolled 77 = 77

    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)21:37 No.14422831
    Prime Runners are the elites. Starting runners are just "good".
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)21:45 No.14422915
    Then your main problem is that you're a social battering ram and very distinctive in combat.

    Neither of those fly well here.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)22:36 No.14423423
    Am I the only one stoked for the Fist Full of Credsticks adventure line? We've seen that Horizon is up to bug-city level creepy shit and I'm eager to see it resolved.

    Personally my bet is on one of the old 3rd Edition AIs coming back as some kind of super-AI.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)22:38 No.14423444
    One of the things that bugs me about Shadowrun is that theres no good reference for how much the runners should be getting payed.

    What's fair for what kinds of work? Is there a formula or system I can use? I don't want to give my players too much, but at the same time I don't want to chump them over either.
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/30/11(Wed)23:12 No.14423684

    The example characters in the core book disagree with you.

    Lets have a look:

    He's got 3 IPs, 7 agility, 6 reaction, 7 strength.

    He's got 5 in Automatics, and 3 in all athletics skills. 4 in pistols, 5 in unarmed, 4 in blades (he's actually very much a generalist fighter).

    Dodge, heavy weapons, negotiation and infiltration.

    Now compare him to the example gangers.

    He is very clearly an elite. Shadowrunner's aren't some low level goons. They ARE elite. Even if they're poor at times.
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/30/11(Wed)23:15 No.14423714

    Fantastic. You now have a city scouring the place for you.

    You're a shadowrunner. You're a goddamn professional, and part of that is limited body count. Lone Star sits up and takes notice when that sort of shit happens. Magic's a big deal, law enforcement wise.
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/30/11(Wed)23:22 No.14423788

    Dude, those examples are pretty much textbook what shadowrunner's are.
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/30/11(Wed)23:24 No.14423811

    I would say it would vary with how the players work.

    In the CP2020 game that I play in, we always find ways to skim of the top, and sides, and bottom. There's always extra cash to be made.

    In my Shadowrun group, they tend to be a bit less imaginitive, so higher pay grades are needed.

    Basically, tailor it to your guys.

    But yeah, as the guy said, 5 digit payouts are reasonable if the sammy needs to stay current.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)23:26 No.14423829

    Only once did he make a reference to using powers to kill someone and even then it could just be rephrased as 'Unload your weapons and throw them on the floor, then handcuff yourself.'

    Just saiyan.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/11(Wed)23:28 No.14423850
    Molly's right.

    In any case, PCs and major NPCs in *any* highly-lethal setting, whether you're talking about Shadowrun or about D&D (remember, a housecat with lucky rolls can kill a 1st-level commoner) are going to be noticeably head and shoulders above the average, because the ones who aren't and still throw themselves into dangerous situations are dead before chargen even happens.
    >> Anonymous 03/31/11(Thu)00:06 No.14424237
    The mention of a "runner corp" makes me think of the Raven's Nest in the Armored Core games - an organization of elite mercenary mecha pilots who hire themselves out for corporate assault/defense/espionage purposes. Geerally, you always play a Raven in the games, though the details vary (in For Answer, for example, you "go rogue" and assault the corps directly); it's not unusual for boss fights in missions to end up being against another Raven who was hired by the "other side".
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/31/11(Thu)01:18 No.14424919

    I am so down.


    I think that's intentional, so you can scale it for what kind of game you want. But even then it wouldn't hurt to have guidelines for high-paying, mid-paying, and low-paying games, you know?
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/31/11(Thu)04:27 No.14426626
    You know, it occurs to me now, for my character, I probably don't even want armor. I can't regenerate Stun damage, so I probably want to make sure those bullets actually tear flesh.
    >> Anonymous 03/31/11(Thu)04:48 No.14426750
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    Maybe it's just me but everythinng seems to be a bit tooo cheap in Shadowrun.

    Middle lifestyle costs you 5000 money every month. Wired Reflexes 2 cost 32000, that 6,4 months of worth of the money you spend on rent, food and other shit. Pretty much everybody with decent job can afford them with a bit of efford, so I really don't see gangers from gangs that aren't complete failures not having at least Wired Reflexes I instaled. Well, the nly reason why mundane ganger might not posses them is because he's currently saving to get the operation. Considering how much this boost their efficiency and survivability, prettty much everyone who expects to see combat should have them inclkuding soldiers and policemen.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 03/31/11(Thu)05:44 No.14427040

    This is true. It's something they comment on in the fluff, actually, how cyber has become old enough tech to filter down to the lower echelons. That said, your average car stealing jackass still probably doesn't have 32 grand lying around. Might have enough for used, though. I'm not sure about cops, unless you're talking about SWAT (I'm sure they do), but frontline soldiers, I imagine a good many if not most of them do have WR in developed countries' and corps' armies. So yes, your interpretation of the effects of the costs is supported.

    That said, availability will vary depending on the area. I doubt you'll see them as commonly in, say, Lagos. Also culture will play a role; there's a stigma against cyber in some Awakened cultures.
    >> Anonymous 03/31/11(Thu)06:06 No.14427130
    The only reason not to put ware that grants extra passes in every dude is to avoid making combat last few hours of gameplay IMO.
    >> noko 03/31/11(Thu)06:09 No.14427143
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    I'm just scanning through quickly, but it looks like no one suggested making a Dwarf with maximum Willpower.

    I don't have the build handy, but a Mage with maximum legal willpower should be able to cast his spells forever. I think you should be able to do a stun bolt every round, and if you're creative, maybe lethal damage every round.
    >> Anonymous 03/31/11(Thu)06:38 No.14427292
    Because nobody plays dwarves. They are american asians of shadowrun. You know that they exists as a minority but you don't really notice them untill it's too late.
    >> Magus O'Grady 03/31/11(Thu)07:18 No.14427499
    I had a dwarf shaan in 3rd edition SR that did just that. Menehune Dwarf subrace (+2 Will) albino (+1 will) Bat Shaman (+2 dice on all Manipulation and Detection spells, -2 dice on all magical actions in sunlight, stacked with albino penalties) specializing in lightning spells. Could consistently lay down a pretty powerful lightning bolt and take no drain from it. Unless he was in sunlight, of course
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/31/11(Thu)09:31 No.14428193

    They're not as good as elves. Remember that drain is stat + willpower.

    Dorfs get +1 WP. Elves get +2 charisma, which is the drain stat for Shamans and other intuitive types.

    Dorfs do get some pretty sweet other advantages though.

    IIRC, it's mentioned a number of times that 'ware won't make up the difference between skill and tactics. It doesn't let you dodge bullets. In a gangland environment, sure. But in the military, being in the right place at the right time is better.

    It'd be a massive expense, not to mention the psychological and logistical problems.

    'wires don't let you dodge mortar fire, or the fire of 4 guys with automatics.

    Specops, sure. But the average rifleman isn't that much better off.
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/31/11(Thu)09:33 No.14428200

    Very hard to do well in 4th.

    Lightning bolt is (F/2)+5. So you need minimum 15 drain dice to avoid all damage. For a physical spell.

    Contrast against stunbolt. (F/2)-1. You can cast it at force 3 with only 1 drain. You can cast it at force 6 for only 2, which any mage can easily take. Beautiful little spell, and a stun's as good as a death in most fights.
    >> Molly !P4yus5IzL2 03/31/11(Thu)09:34 No.14428207

    >(F/2) + 3
    For bolt. My bad.
    >> Anonymous 03/31/11(Thu)10:51 No.14428627
    Whats the point in doing physical damage with spells instead of mana damage? Isn't mana damage much harder to resist than physical damage?
    >> Anonymous 03/31/11(Thu)10:54 No.14428647
    Oh wow. Autosage reached. Good job guys.
    >> Anonymous 03/31/11(Thu)10:54 No.14428650
    I didn't say Shadowrunners are low level goons, so keep your words in your text box, and while you're at it, treat examples as what they are - examples. They don't cover the spectrum of possibilities, and they're not supposed to.

    >> Every once in a while, player characters will encounter a memorable NPC who is their match, or better.
    They're not all superhuman, but if you want someone that can tangle with a group of PCs as an antagonist - if you want someone that needs teamwork or exceptional circumstances to defeat (or is beyond the group's capabilities to defeat) ... that's what a Prime Runner is.

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