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  • File : 1300150720.jpg-(1.37 MB, 1999x1464, End of Heresy.jpg)
    1.37 MB Two can play that game Harkan Ironfist 03/14/11(Mon)20:58 No.14243796  
    So, my fellow fa/tg/uys, with the Grey Knight Codex unveiled, we can see the way things are going in 40k. I say, why fight Matt Ward's level of fluff/crunch? Why not embrace it?

    I come to you today with a mission, to make a Chaos Space Marine Codex that can stand toe-to-toe with GK, DE, and SM.

    Many have wanted a Codex: Chaos, that focuses on traitor PDFs, Daemons, and so forth, with CSM only a fraction of the overall picture. That is not the goal of this thread, or any that follow it. IF you want to see a Forces of Chaos 'dex, try your own.

    I, and any who wish to work with me, will consult the previous chaos codices at our disposal, and work to create a dex that honors and improves on the ideals held in those codices.

    IN short, I want Chaos to be varied and frightening. But we must start from the basics. The "humble" Chaos Space Marines themselves.
    >> Anonymous 03/14/11(Mon)20:59 No.14243818
    Bring Daemon Armor and CSM army specializations back.
    >> Alpharius 03/14/11(Mon)21:02 No.14243850
    1. Wait for CSM's 5th-ed release

    2. Realize that all 5th-ed codices are roughly balanced with each other due to the 5th-ed design philosophy being different from 4th-ed (different? HERESY! I should go bitch on the internet!)

    3. Be embarrassed that all your bitching was pointless

    4. die
    >> WanderingTzeenchite 03/14/11(Mon)21:02 No.14243852
    Call it 40k Ward mode. Write fluff about a Greater Daemon who singlehanded orchestrated the death of the Ultramarine's first company with the Tyranids, then proceded to insure that the nids were beaten back before they could take the Macragge so he could begin a series of events that "while convoluted, are predestined to end in the utter destruction of the Ultramarines, to the last man".
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/14/11(Mon)21:13 No.14243971
    IN moving from 4th to 5th, the standard Space Marine gained a few things:
    - a price increase of 1 (15 pts to 16 points)
    - Frag and Krak Grenades.
    - Both a bolt gun and a bolt pistol, instead of having to choose.
    - Free or cheaper upgrades.
    - Tactical variety. (Combat Tactics, ATSKNF, Combat Squads)

    So, our CSM also have to gain while remaining distinct from their loyalist brethren.

    Now, we started with a lead, having the Bolter, Bolt pistol, and CCW for free, as well as the frag and krak grenades.

    So what the CSM need are their upgrades re-vamped, and their tactical utility buffed. Let's focus on tactical utility.

    The difference between codex marines and non-cult CSM is one of trust. Namely, the codex marines have units and support, while the CSM travel in warbands. So in my opinion, we should focus on their singularity. I put forth:

    Self-Reliant: Chaos Space Marines may always attempt to re-group, regardless of remaining unit size OR OTHER CRITERIA.

    -This is a change from codex SM, who always pass unless they are not allowed to roll, whereas this would force an opposing player to worry if at any point those retreating CSM will regroup and assault his herding squad.

    So, let's start off talking about this.
    >> Anonymous 03/14/11(Mon)21:14 No.14243988
    Can I make a special character trapped in the main Imperial palace eluding all authority and killing so many Custodes they just decide to leave him alone?
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/14/11(Mon)21:16 No.14244004

    Honored Primarch, I am not bitching about 5e's design philosophy, far from it.

    However, as rumor currently stands it will be a long time until Chaos is redone with the new rules. Consider this a thought experiment, a chance for the fans to say "This is what we would like"
    >> TerminusEst !!u+uMAzaP9l4 03/14/11(Mon)21:17 No.14244021
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    He'd have to be a World Eater.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/14/11(Mon)21:18 No.14244033
    Could you? Yes.

    However, a Chaos Space Marine should be able to realize that the only way that was possible is that the Emperor, for some unfathomable reason, wanted him there. Thus, he would be serving the Emperor, and should kill himself.
    >> WanderingTzeenchite 03/14/11(Mon)21:18 No.14244043
    But every once in a while, the custodes let him get on a spaceship and fly out to help poor CSM in need. Afterward, he notices he's running out of gas and makes the trip back to refill, only for the ship to get compounded...until the next one.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/14/11(Mon)21:35 No.14244237
    Aspiring Champions would be a 10 point upgrade, as a normal sergeant.

    Now, let us consider Icons.
    To simply discard the idea is to lose a chance of further exploration.
    So, let's try it like this: An Aspiring Champion may take an Icon for X points. An Icon, unless otherwise noted, counts as a CCW.
    Open The Way: Obliterators, Models in Terminator armor, and Daemons do not scatter when Deep Striking within 6" of a n Icon. Daemons do not count Icons of their Rival's god as an Icon.

    Specific Icon Effects:
    Icon of Chaos Glory: The unit may re-roll failed Leadership tests.

    Icon of Khorne's Fury: All models in the unit count as having the Mark of Khorne. This Icon counts as a Power Weapon.

    Icon of Nurgle's Touch: All models in the unit count as having the Mark of Nurgle. This icon counts as a poisoned (4+) weapon.

    Icon of Tzeentch's Cunning: All models in the unit count as having the Mark of Tzeentch. If the model is a psyker, this icon counts as a force weapon.

    Icon of Slaanesh's Excess: All models in the unit count as having the Mark of Slaanesh. This icon inflicts instant death on an unsaved to-wound roll of 6.
    >> Anonymous 03/14/11(Mon)21:40 No.14244294
    That seems like it might shift around costs for Icons a bit, though it could definitely be interesting. The Insta-Death on a roll of 6 seems like it might be a bit too much of a killer. The only other model I know of with that rule is Khan, who's named and an HQ choice. Perhaps it instead reduces models it hits to Initiative 1, regardless of wounds and saves? The target hit is caught in the Ecstasy of Slaanesh for a fleeting instant, like a mini-version of the Blissgiver.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/14/11(Mon)21:56 No.14244497
    That's a good suggestion. I'm mostly just throwing out ideas here, trying to get /tg/'s creative juices flowing.

    As to costs, I'm no good with gear choices. And mild with units. Pretty good at characters, however.

    Now that the ideas for the CSM are out, I unveil my next step: The CHOSEN.

    The Chosen are a slowly dwindling force on the battlefields of Chaos. This is because, to be a member of the Chosen, you must have partaken in the Horus Heresy. These veterans have lived and fought in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years, and still make war against the False Emperor.

    28 points a model
    Statline: As Aspiring Champion.
    Their squad leader is called a Veteran Champion
    Special Rules: Self-Reliant, Ten Thousand Years of War

    Ten Thousand Years of War: The Chosen have fought in countless engagements, in a near infinite variety of terrains. AS such, before deployment, you may assign the unit one of the following special rules:
    Counter-Attack, Infilitrate,or Relentless.

    For 12 points a model, they can wear terminator armor.

    Further Chosen Ideas: Abaddon makes them a troops choice.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/14/11(Mon)22:29 No.14244892

    SO, since we have the base units down, we can expand.
    In my mind the sketch goes

    Cult Troops

    Cult Specials
    Alpha Legion Special

    Fast Attack
    Slaanesh & Tzeentch special units
    Night Lord Special

    Heavy Support
    Khorne & Nurgle Special
    Iron Warriors special

    Daemon Princes
    Special characters. (I'm not sure what I want with special characters. the core 5 of course, and I want support for the NIght Lords, Alpha Legion, & Iron Warriors, but I'd like a couple new cult guys. Sigh.)

    Anyway, since I don't have any pressing ideas on how to change the cult troops, I'll unveil my ideas for the Cult Elites: The Blessed.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/14/11(Mon)23:10 No.14245067
    The Blessed are what remains of the Terminator companies of those Legions that fell to worship of specific Gods. Each is a profane examplar of their god's will, having been shaped by over ten thousand years of depravity and foul worship.

    Few have encountered the Blessed, given their rarity and status within the Cult of their God. When they do come, it is seen as a sign of the God's will. Abaddon frequently pleads with the gods to lend him the strength of the Blessed, but so far no God has allowed it.

    Blessed of Khorne: The Butchers
    Within each of these brazen suits of terminator armor, a Khornate champion resides. Or at least, that is the belief. For as far as any have been able to tell, the armor is full of boiling blood that leaks from the joints and plates, running down the brass form.

    WS 6 BS 3 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:4 A:4 Ld 10 Sv: 2+
    Wargear: Fount of Khorne, power sword.
    Special Rules: Boiling Blood, Fearless, Furious Charge, Khorne's Hate, Mark of Khorne(included in stats)
    Fount of Khorne: a Str 5 AP4 flamer template of boiling blood.

    Boiling blood. Any model that inflicts an unsaved wound on a Butcher takes an immediate strength 4 hit.
    Khorne's hate: All things that live are Khorne's to kill, and the Butchers are the workers of his will. They have preferred enemy against all units.
    >> Anonymous 03/14/11(Mon)23:38 No.14245134
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    I like where this is going
    >> Anonymous 03/14/11(Mon)23:48 No.14245199
    give Lucius the old rule, where he gains as many attacks, as someone outnumbers him in WS
    >funding esentch
    yes captcha, we are funding the essence of chaos
    >> Rawne !Qi28nPZaCI 03/15/11(Tue)00:25 No.14245305
    This thread takes me back to the days when /tg/ could actually come up with feasible house rules. Well done so far OP. A few suggestions:

    >Icon of Slaanesh's Excess: All models in the unit count as having the Mark of Slaanesh. This icon inflicts instant death on an unsaved to-wound roll of 6.

    Or just rending.

    >Self-Reliant: Chaos Space Marines may always attempt to re-group

    This has never been a problem for me, but I run mostly Fearless troops or CSM with IoCG. Perhaps something similar to combat squads or the ability to have three special weapons per squad or something.

    I always liked this, and never was quite sure why they axed it.

    I also like this, but it's almost going overboard...wait, never mind, I just remembered what the current edition is like right now.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)00:35 No.14245373
    HAVE A KHORNE BEZERKER NAME BLOOD WIGHT MC BLOODFISTER /spoilersdon'tworkonteeg/ HE'S A SQUAT /endofnotworkingspoilers/
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)00:35 No.14245378
    wait, scratch that, is should be WIGHT BLOOD MCBLOODFIST
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)00:43 No.14245443
    Allow Marks to be applied to summoned daemons, make Possessed able to take wings
    Daemon Princes being creatures of the warp are immune to Perils of the Warp,
    give Chaos lords Eternal Warrior,
    have Havocs be able to take twice as many Special/Heavy weapons, but a max squad of ten & add 3 pts per model to their cost
    give Obliterators & Chosen + 1 BS
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)00:46 No.14245466
    TSons should also get +1 BS, Typhus should be T 5(6)
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)00:49 No.14245502
    >Chaos Space Marine Codex that can stand toe-to-toe with GK

    Chaos daemon manifests itself on terra. takes a huge shit on the emperors lap. it just lays there for the rest of eternity and no one ever cleans it up.
    Also Doomrider owns one million grey knight terminators every saturday morning to get over his hangover.

    thats about as close as I can get to wardism.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)00:52 No.14245523
    Reasonable, without increasing base points cost, except for the havocs and the the new option for wings, which might as well be standard, since everyone would take it.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/15/11(Tue)00:55 No.14245546
    I don't have solid ideas from this point, so it's where /tg/ as a whole can start helping. Here are my sketch ideas.

    Tzeentch's are the Thousand Sons terminators, so they're very slow, but very tough and lethal. I'm thinking a ranged version of TH/SS termies.
    Slaanesh's are The Terminators of the Emperor's Children. Golden Emperors. Powerful sonic weapons, hard to shake due to ennui.
    Nurgle's Blessed are from the Death Guard. Rotlords, or some such. perhaps their very presence is damaging to enemies.

    Cult troops:
    I want marks to have a little more oomph, maybe as a scaling concept. So say, the Mark of Khorne is +1 Attack for troops, +1 Attack and Furious Charge for elites, and Bloodlust(roll a 6, get another attack) to HQs, but I'm not certain.

    The specials. I want each of these to focus on a less considered aspect of the god. Maybe Khorne's units are plasma-spewers, since he cares not from where the blood flows. Slaanesh's men fire artillery that does not scatter, because their aim is perfect, etc. (more emp's children, but still)

    The other legions I've only the roughest sketches.
    Alpha legion: something like the new Callidus. "Surprise, I was the enemy all along!"
    Iron Warriors: Some terrible tank.
    Night Lord: A Hurricane. Think a Lone Wolf with Assault Pack

    I'm going to grab something to eat, and get to work on my next idea.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)00:55 No.14245548
    the demon needs a stupid name too, like, bloodspire doomspear
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:00 No.14245582
    >bloodstool doomspear
    fix'd. now we also know how his business looks like.
    >> Dantalaeon !!2TQS185pmIh 03/15/11(Tue)01:06 No.14245626

    >Maybe Khorne's units are plasma-spewers, since he cares not from where the blood flows.

    You're thinking too small, Broseidon.

    They fire blood.

    CURSED blood.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:09 No.14245659
    Actually on the subject of a CSM special character that can attack Terra...
    Why not Doomrider?
    I mean he just shows up wherever right?
    Perhaps you could fluff it so that he occasionally goes to Terra to harass the Custodes.
    Give him a Daemon Weapon, Daemon Bike and Daemon Armor.
    You know what fuck it give him two Daemon Weapons.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/15/11(Tue)01:12 No.14245687
    Excellent, these are the types of responses/ideas I was hoping to evoke.
    Although, as I think on this project, it may become unwieldy. I've got ideas for Khornate Heavy Support, Fast Attack, Elites, & Troops.
    Maybe there is some merit to the "Renegade/Cult" codex split. BUT those are thoughts for another time! First, we gather the tools!
    So, let's try upping one of the Special Characters, ABADDON!
    original 4th ed Abby
    WS 6 BS 5 S:4 T4(5) W:3 I:5 A 4+1 Ld: 10 Sv:2+/4+
    -eternal warrior
    - 4+ psychic save
    -retinue of Chosen
    -Lightning claw/combi-bolter/personal icon
    -drach'nyen: 1 attack per turn, power weapon, outright kill/auto-pen

    4.5/5th ed Ab
    - WS 7 BS:5 S:4(8) T: 4(5) W:4 I:6 A:4+1d6 Ld: 10 Sv: 2+/4+
    -Eternal Warrior
    -double-strength daemon weapon that re-rolls to hit.
    -Personal Icon.

    My suggestion in the next post.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:17 No.14245739
    iron warrior's should have a baneblade, or some artillery tank. maybe a techmarine like ability, increasing cover saves.
    i like the night lords idea.
    alpharius should have a thing similiar to callidus' new ability, where they suddenly are in a unit at the start of that phase or whatever. but it should be cultists not marines.
    word bearers need dark chaplains of course, give them cool leadership based abilities? maybe similar to command like guard.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:18 No.14245746
    Cursed blood that counts as a plasma cannon (Ha ha pun) on a squad that may take a wound to make it a Melta cannon?
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:19 No.14245751
    If we're talking about legion specific abilities, the Night Lords need something to reflect their terror-based doctrine. Maybe force the enemy to pass LD tests or suffer, I don't know, lower initiative?
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:28 No.14245846
    i like this. there should also be things that help armies that stick to one legion.
    so if you're using all iron warriors, you all get a re-roll on failed pinning tests.
    night lords cause lowered initiative on the turn they hit in close combat.
    alpharius allows specialist skills to be bought on all squads.
    word bearers allow aspiring champions to be dark chaplains.
    black legion is default codex style
    world eaters get free bloodletters for every 2 khornate units.
    deathguard gets nurglings as an upgrade for any unit, which increases the wounds of each person.
    thousand sons get flamers, or something
    emps children get a sonic tank, based off predator, uses blast template or something
    >bettft derailed
    actually, we're still on topic
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:31 No.14245872
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    I still like the idea of the return of Doomrider, so here are my suggestions.
    Up points cost.
    2+ save.
    Remove He Comes, He Goes.
    Remove plasma gun, bolt pistol and power weapon.
    New weapon, Partyender.
    Daemon Weapon with two daemons in it.
    Roll 2d6 similar to a Khornate weapon, inflict instant death on wound.
    If the weapon rolls a 1 he goes back into reserve, if it rolls two 1s he departs the game.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:39 No.14245947
    That Daemon weapon is way overpowered, that's a maximum of 17 attacks that cause ID.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/15/11(Tue)01:39 No.14245951
    As long as it has the Gets Hot! rule, it fit my vision.


    WS:8 BS:5 S:4 T:4(5) W:4 I:6 A:4 Ld:10 Sv:2+/4+

    Wargear: Terminator Armor, Drach'nyen, The Talon of Horus, The Mark of Chaos Ascendent, The Planet-Killer
    Special Rules: Fearless, Ten Thousand Years of Command, Only The Best, The Warmaster

    Drach'nyen: This ancient blade uses the rules of a Daemonblade as presented in Codex Grey Knights, except that Abaddon may wield it in one hand, and on a roll of 11-12, replace the Familiar ability with "The Gods' Ire: Any unsaved wound by this weapon inflicts Instant Death." Further, it calls to to the warp, functioning as a Personal Icon.

    The Talon of Horus: This ancient lightning claw allows Abaddon to count as wielding two close combat weapons, as well as having a built-in twin-linked storm bolter.

    The Mark of Chaos Ascendant: Abaddon has been blessed by each of the four Gods of Chaos, granting him power beyond mortal conception. In addition to the marks' standard effects(already calculated in his statline [This may end up changing things]) the mark grants Abaddon eternal warrior.

    The Planet-Killer: Abaddon enjoys watching his foes burn under the assault of his personal Flagship. Count as an orbital bombardment that may be used every turn.

    Only the Best: An army with Abaddon may select Chosen as troops. Abaddon functions as an independent character who may only join units of Chosen.

    Ten Thousand Years of Command: Before deployment, Abaddon may grant d3 units one of the following special rules:
    Counter-Attack, Infiltrate, or Relentless.

    The Warmaster: All warriors of Chaos know who Abaddon is, and follow him, even if they question his tactics. Any Chaos Space Marine unit with line of sight to Abaddon may re-roll failed morale checks.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:40 No.14245960
    How about ressurecting that ancient daemon engine thing that the world eaters used to field, had 2 spoked wheels at the front and caterpillar tracks at the back a whip for an arms and a head like a lord of battle, can not for the life of me remember what it was called. How about instead of cursed blood it's boiling blood or daemon blood? cursed just sounds a bit naff IMO.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:43 No.14245988
    I think they were called Lords of Battle.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:43 No.14245989
    Did you say overpowered?
    Then it is working as intended.
    Also i think its actually 16 max.
    Alternatively, the attacks only cause instant death on a roll of six.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:45 No.14246005
    Charge (+1) + 12 (2d6) + 4 Base

    That ID on a roll of six is better.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:48 No.14246030
    No that was the Epic one. There was a very similar thing but for 40K, it went back to the more developed idea of Khorne as a more complete god of war and killing, a god of martial spirit and pride as well as hacky, slashing, argh! So he also had all the best Daemon forges crafting massive daemon engines, that's why all the Epic Chaos War engines were his. Will try to find it.

    Loving the Sound of the butchers I really want to make the models for those.
    >> snake sex 03/15/11(Tue)01:49 No.14246040
    I never liked the idea that chaos possessed entered the battlefield looking like they do... the mutations should be horribly powerful and unstable and probably unwelcome.

    Maybe we remove the entire Possessed entry and make a new psychic power..

    Mass Mutation - Tapping into the currents of the aeither, the Sorceror summons a host of nascent daemons to possess the material bodies of his warriors (usually without their consent). If a psychic test is passed, a single friendly unit within 12" of the Sorceror undergoes horrifying physical change as their bodies become host to unnameable horrors. The affected unit gains the Feel No Pain, Fearless, and Rending universal special rules, gains +1 WS, S, and A and changes it's unit type to Beasts. They may not shoot, but will always run, and must attempt to charge an enemy unit if within range. Once in close combat, they will eschew any normal close combat weapons they were carrying, preferring to tear away at their foes with their daemonic talons, counting as a pair of close combat weapons.

    The changes wrought by such powerful sorcery are not without price however, and the target unit loses it's ability to capture objectives in their inhuman bloodlust. In addition, in games decided by kill points or victory points, the unit will count as destroyed at the end of the battle, as the warriors will lose their minds and succumb to permanent flesh change, changing forever into mindless Chaos Spawn.

    Just an idea.. solves the problem of why possessed and spawn are such shitty choices when they should be fearsome.. also makes for sweet psychic power fluff.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/15/11(Tue)01:49 No.14246044
    Gentlemen, where I am it grows late, so I am going to sleep now. I will resurrect this thread in the morning, assuming it hasn't 404'd. If it has, I'll start up a new thread.

    Ideas I want to explore:
    -Should we change how marks work?
    -Are we comfortable with doing ~13ish special characters? (Kharn, Lucius, Ahriman, Typhus, Abaddon, Doomrider, Fabius, Alpha guy, Iron Guy, Word guy, Night Guy, and if we do Doomrider, why not do other version of the other 3 cults)

    - How do we ensure that Black Legion/ Pure non-cult is still viable with all the cult options?

    (As a side note, I am all for the revival of Doomrider. Maybe even at the loss of Lucius.)
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:50 No.14246046
    Derp, charge.
    Yes well i am no master of balance like Matt Ward, but i think a 2+ invulnerable save wielding CC monster that inflicts instant death is pretty fair.
    Is entering reserves when rolling a single 1 a fair punishment?
    I figured it was in the spirit of his rules and with the ridiculous invuln save that the daemon weapon wound effect would never apply.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:54 No.14246074
    Sorry I'm a dumb ass, I was thinking of the blood slaughterer which FW has obiously redone, it's just they've altered the models so much you can't reckognise any link between the two.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:55 No.14246083
    I'm sure he'd be used against mobs or troops choices as well as HQ
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)01:56 No.14246094
    i think marks should stay the same. bring back chain axes though.
    black legion should have access to all units, whereas certain armies are restricted to only units that fit within it. no noise marines in a khorne army sorta deal
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)02:03 No.14246138
    Yup definitely, the more themed characterful feel to the armies is a big part of what is lacking in the current codex.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)02:06 No.14246172
    Should Daemon Weapons be redone?
    Should Sorcerors get Daemon Weapons?
    Should Daemon Princes get Daemon Weapons?
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)02:08 No.14246189
    I would enable troop chaos space marines to pick one special or heavy weapon per five dudes. Sniper rifle should be added among the special weapon choices.

    Maybe some sort of expensive obliterotaro HQ who can fire his weapons multiple times per shooting phase.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)02:14 No.14246232
    I haven't seen the new Grey Knight codex... how bad is it? (by bad i mean ridiculously overpowered like the Blood Angels/Space Wolves/etc.)
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/15/11(Tue)02:30 No.14246315
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    Perhaps, rather than functioning as a special weapon the Mark or Icon can determine what special rule the squad possesses. (basically replacing Grey Hunters' special rule.)

    Khorne: +1 attack, Counter Attack
    Tzeentch: Invul bonus, ????
    Slaanesh: +1 Initiative, Stealth
    Nurgle: +1 Toughness, 6+ FNP?

    Also, I'd like it if Chosen had some functionality similar to Wolf Guard as far as spreading around the army as Champs for units and everything. Fluffwise this makes sense, at least to me, as they'd be the glory hounds wielding whatever power they can get.

    Dark Apostles should be similar to, but not the same as Sanguinary Priests. Maybe more offensively minded that Priests... Preferred Enemy and Fleet? (FORWARD! THE GODS DEMAND IT!) Although...there couldn't be Khornate priests... So perhaps Preferred Enemy and another ability determined by their Mark.

    Berserkers can give up a pistol for a second Chain weapon and gain rending. Not as expensive as a power weapon, but a little more nasty.

    +1 to Prince Perils immunity. They should also be able to take Daemon Weapons.

    Daemon Weapons should work more like the Daemonblade in the Grey Knight codex. Perhaps with varying costs for the Strength of the Daemon inside, allowing for more or fewer rolls on the table.
    >> wallamazoo !r3NZBcC2gA 03/15/11(Tue)02:35 No.14246356
    to cover the Undivided Legions...

    Alpha Legion:
    - Squads infiltrate for 3pts per model as an option
    - Cultists -> Weak meatshields that can hold locations, count as troops, but do not take up a troop selection. 0-3.

    Iron Warriors
    - 0-1 Limit removed from Oblits
    - may take 1 looted Basilisk with Chaos upgrades. Bs 4
    -Aspiring Champions, and Independent Characters may take a Servo Arm for 25pts. Counts as an additional powerfist, repairs vehicles on a roll of a 5 or better when in base contact.

    Word Bearers
    - Dark Apostles instead of Chaos Lord (Cursed Crozius) Power weapon, counts as personal icon. Attached squads re-roll failed hits.
    - May take Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Plague Bearers, or Flamers of Tzeench. (From Chaos: Demons) as troops. Must deep strike.
    - 1 less Fast Attack and Heavy Support for two additional Troop slots.

    - Raptors may be taken as troops
    - Raptors, CSM, Chosen, and the Chaos Lord gain Fleet, and Counter Attack special rules.
    - Terror Grenades (Replace Frag Grenades) -> Offensive. on a 6+, the enemy squad is pinned.

    Black Legion: Vanilla.

    Did I miss anything?
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)02:35 No.14246360
    I haven't read the GK codex, how do Daemonblades work?
    Also you seem to have good ideas.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/15/11(Tue)02:43 No.14246408
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    Also, a question of theme:

    In terms of individual model power, I've always envisioned Chaos Marines as the step between normal Marines and the Grey Knights. Elites but still a semi-numerous force. Less marines than Vanilla but more than the boys in Grey. Anybody else agree/disagree with this?

    On that note, I almost want to propose that Chaos should only be allowed 1 (ONE) HQ slot. (As THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE strong enough to bring the disparate elements together, but that one HQ, Character or otherwise, should be a beast.) but in exchange gain an extra Elites slot to represent a veteran elite based army. (Elites will have to be a competitive slot and certainly balanced by the exceptional Troops choices that they'll have.)

    Lucious should be an Elite Add on for Slaanesh based Chosen. I just can't see him leading armies into battle. He can be joined by Cypher for Undivided based Chosen. Might have to dig up some characters for the other marks.
    >> wallamazoo !r3NZBcC2gA 03/15/11(Tue)02:48 No.14246439
    Two HQ slots (standard for all Armies)
    0-1 Limit of Chaos Lord/ Daemon Prince
    Additional choice of Lieutenant, Champion, or Sorcerer.
    - Lieutenant is a Squad Buff, Champion is a wrecking ball, Sorcerer... well, you know.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)02:51 No.14246456
    Khorne berserkers. Instead of rolling dice to see if you hit and all that womanly bullshit, the two opponents must instead arm wrestle over the game board.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)02:52 No.14246461
    I'd agree with both the initial ideas. I've always seen the CSMs as being better than standard current marines
    A) They have 10,000 years of training/experience,
    B) The fluff often mentions that they're bigger/stronger than the current breed which could be accounted for in terms of geneseed become more diluted/degraded down the generations, even if you discount major geneseed corruptions becoming more prevalent minor corruptions could just make it less effective.
    C)They have the warping power of Chaos working on them, exaggerating them even if they're not mutated physically.
    But this is countered by them being finite in number. There were loads to start off with but that's before 10,000 years of continous warfare.

    I also like the idea that the army should have one clear undisputed leader, he could have a lieutenant but no one of the same level or another character.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)02:53 No.14246466
    stop creating shitpost threads
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)02:54 No.14246472

    But wait, you can take any daemons with you anyway, so why the special rule dictating that?

    Why not just make it easier for them to get Daemons into play, like a bonus on the dice roll or you get to reroll failed dice
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/15/11(Tue)02:55 No.14246478
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    Basically there's a table that you roll on with 2d6 with abilities like
    "+3 to Str" "When the Daemon weapon inflicts an unsaved wound its wielder immediately gains one wound (max 10)" stuff like that.

    I was envisioning various levels of this. your Lesser Daemon weapon costing X points gets you 1 roll. Your Daemon Weapon costing X+ gets you 2. And your Greater Daemon Weapon costing X++ gets you three against the chart.

    If you really wanted you could make the chart a bit larger, with a abilities more akin to specific gods clustered together and arranged in a spectrum like fashion. Certain marks would then Add or subtract from your rolls to make it more likely to get a result flavored for your chosen god.

    But that gets tedious, and doing multiple charts just fills the book with more charts. At the end of the day, Chaos is going to be at least an Assault leaning army. The rolls for one are going to be useful for another. Although then we'd have to avoid psker type stuff...
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)03:03 No.14246530
    Eh, Daemon weapons being more complex and random is lovely, but perhaps just have it be D6 + a god modifier?
    So there are six abilities to be triggered, and some of them are modified by having a certain mark.
    Roll a 1, get "Super Bloodlust rage" get +2 strength, if khorne also get +2 attacks, if slaanesh get always strikes first and no strength. With Tzeentch and Nurgle not affecting this power.
    Lesser daemons could be represented as the current Daemon weapons, perhaps with some nerfs.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)03:06 No.14246546
    Or actually, for better balance perhaps Tzeentch/Nurgle might take penalties on that power.
    So what is a good roll for one god, might be a shit one for another as opposed to universal bad+good rolls.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/15/11(Tue)03:09 No.14246565
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    I suppose that's fair.

    I just figured that it would end up being like Possessed are now. Any one of their random abilities is useful, but since you don't know before hand, it kind of negates some of the strategy and fun of list building.

    But this just being a single weapon wielded by an HQ...any and all of the abilities could be useful, he just might not be popping battle tanks this game.

    Though the idea that if you're lucky enough to roll the right effects and hitting the daemon weapon jackpot is kind of amusing and fun in its own right.

    The powers of Chaos are fickle after all...
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)03:15 No.14246606
    Strange, just yesterday there was a thread about making a Lost and the Damned codex.

    I guess people on /tg/ just really love chaos. There will be so much rage when the new book gets "toned down" because so many people complained about Ward's ridiculous rules and fluff.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)03:23 No.14246684
    Oh and he should have "Crack Grenades".
    Just those GK grenades that make people go crazy and attack each other, but re-fluffed to be filled with warp affected stimulants.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)03:23 No.14246686
    >BA overpowered
    I'm gonna take a moment to laugh at your expense.
    GK are a high powered, point expensive army that can CC like beasts from the fluff and still have some decent close shooty. They seem to lack a fair portion of long ranged firepower, but if and when they close the gap, you have a problem.
    Which brings me to the issue here. GKs are stupidly expensive compared to most armies, arguably as much as they used to be when taking everything together. Would this redone CSM codex also be expensive, or is this an attempt to simply one up other codices without the small things that hold them back?
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)03:27 No.14246718
    Yeah Chaos will be a bit more expensive, since fluffwise there's little competition for them
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)03:30 No.14246745
    The points cost for the special characters and HQs should be beyond stupidly ridiculous.
    For the other units they should be high, but not the highest.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/15/11(Tue)03:31 No.14246756
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    As I said earlier, overall it would be more expensive than vanilla marines, but less than the Grey Knights.
    But another idea. I don't want to go and just steal any and all interesting mechanics from other codicies, but...

    Should Possessed have a buff similar to the DE Fueled by Pain thing? Thematically, I just love the idea of them mutating more and more as the battle takes them and the Daemons inside them slowly take over.

    But there needs to be some independence, and DE certainly deserve their own bells and whistles. But if anyone can come up with an appropriately Chaos-y device I'd love to see it.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)03:35 No.14246781
    Pfft, just have possessed roll a d6 every turn, on a 6 they mutate again.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)03:41 No.14246805
    The current 15pt Chaos Marines could represent (comparatively) recent inductions into the warband while Chosen, cults, terminators, etc could represent the "almost GK level badasses from 10,000 years ago."

    Even Chaos marines have to recruit to stay in business.

    >passant lnevin
    I think captcha wants to play chess
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/15/11(Tue)03:46 No.14246838
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    one final thought before the Sleep takes me.

    Marks of Chaos Ascendant.

    I'm not talking about just handing out Abaddon's special prize, but rather a difference between a normal Mark and an Ascendant Mark for Lords and Princes.

    So while a Mark of Nurgle on your lord will still allow you to take a squad of Berserkers or Noise Marines, it won't allow for Thousand Sons or anything marked by Tzeentch.

    Ascendant Marks, on the other hand, would be the sign of a truly dedicated and proven champion of a particular god. A Lord with the Mark of Nurgle Ascendant would only allow for units and vehicles marked by Nurgle and no one else. This would be balanced by some bonuses granted to units meeting a certain criteria such as getting a free champion or perhaps granting a champion or squad a special weapon(s) choice. (Do we want to bring back the special numbers? I don't think they really added enough to mess with.) Basically, I'm thinking we could have the rules for the Legions or even notable renegades without having to make specific rules for them individually. (or at least make the process a little easier within the context of the book.)
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)03:52 No.14246879

    Or you could use the mark/icon process from the Hordes of Chaos/Beastmen of Chaos books (the out of date ones that could be used together) and have a chart listing what the different effects of the marks/icons are for different units.

    And totally bring back the numbers deal. Since you still had to pay for any fancy gear you bought for Aspiring Champions, you only really got a 10pts discount. And it was fluffy as hell without being game breaking, which was epic.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)04:50 No.14247237

    May I suggest these alternative names for the Blessed?

    Gorelords - World Eater's Blessed of Khorne
    Phoenix Guard(Fulgrim's old bodyguard) - Emperor's Children Blessed of Slaanesh
    Plague Fathers - Death Guard's Blessed of Nurgle
    Scarab Occult(old termie squad of the TS) - Thousand Sons Blessed of Tzeentch
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)05:52 No.14247578
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    i will pray to the dark gods that you are successful my brothers, death to the false emperor!
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)06:29 No.14247751
    I shall redo my Doomrider statline from here >>14245872
    WS6 BS5 S5 T4(5) W3 I5(7) A4 Ld10 Sv3+
    Wargear: Power Armor, Cool Sounding Daemon Weapon, Chaos Space Marine Bike w/ Twin-linked Meltagun, Crack Grenades
    Special Rules: Ménage à Slaanesh, Wheels of Fire, Summoned, Eternal Warrior, 4+ Invulnerable save

    Cool Daemon Weapon: This Daemon Weapon has two daemons in it. It is a Power Weapon. Roll two D6s and add the higher of the two to your attacks, if both roll a 1 then Doomrider departs the battlefield, he does not count as being killed but cannot return to the battle. Wounds caused by this weapon inflict instant death regardless of the target's toughness.
    Crack Grenades: Filled with warp augmented hallucinogenics and stimulants, these grenades drive people mad. Works like those Psyk-out nades or whatever it is that the GK has.

    Ménage à Slaanesh: Doomrider has TWO Marks of Slaanesh, this is represented on his statline.
    Summoned: Doomrider must be summoned to the battlefield in the same way as a unit of Daemons.

    Some fa/tg/uy can surely improve upon this, and i haven't included a points cost. I have probably made some mistakes somewhere but this is my current vision for a Doomrider. Feel free to ignore it and supply your own!
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/15/11(Tue)14:17 No.14251379
    Brothers! We made it through the night!

    Before I begin work again, I must feed my mortal form, but know that I am proud.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)14:22 No.14251439
    rolled 91, 65, 98 = 254

    I was actually about to bump this. Glad to see you're back.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/15/11(Tue)14:48 No.14251699

    These are all ideas I'm considering working with. (Not to say the rest of you aren't having good ideas, these posts just stood out to me.)

    Kjax, good idea on the upgrade character for Lucius, that will help fit all these characters in.

    For right now, I suggest we stick with Daemonblade = Daemon Weapon, at least for Undivided. I like the idea of tiers of Daemonblades, but let's get a more solid footing on everything else first.

    AS to the power of CSM, >>14246805 is the most in line with MY thinking, though that is by no means the end-all be-all.

    I think I'm going try fiddling with Doomrider.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)15:46 No.14252292
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    rolled 7, 94, 96 = 197

    I'm not saying this is a good idea, but what about building on dark heresy's take on daemonic weapons by rolling for its attributes. The table would of course differ from what mark you got equipped. Dark Heresy also got a table for the strength of the daemon trapped in the weapon which decides how many attributes the weapon gets, but if you are to use this kind of table I think it's better to have the strength of the blade be decided by point cost.

    Again, I'm not sure if this works, but I like the idea of not always being able to trust how much a daemon would help you.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)15:51 No.14252336
    If it wasn't clear. The Dark Heresy table is obviously not something that can be used. It was just an example.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)16:08 No.14252511
    A fun idea that I caought on the Intrawebs (not mine):

    "Sacred Numbers" count for combat squads, aka you can combat squad if you take multiples of the sacred number of X god's mark.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)16:35 No.14252818
    Oh good, i will love some input on Doomrider.
    Are you Australian?
    I think you are Australian.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)16:38 No.14252857
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    I think CSM should be more powerful than regular SM but less of them.

    CSM have spent 10,000 years in the eye of terror doing never ending battle against other astartes, clearly they are going to be more powerful than regular SM.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)16:47 No.14252947
    Special Rules:
    Grand-daddy doesn't love me.
    At the start of every turn every unit must make a toughness test, if this test is failed the unit is removed from play and treated as killed as the pent up emotional trauma overcomes the Chaos Marines and they run sobbing to their therapists.

    Sexual Frustration
    Forever bonded to their blasphemous suits of power armor most Chaos Marines have been unable to touch their weenier for 10,000 years. Any unit not bearing the mark of Slaanesh gains furious charge when charging any units containing females.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)16:56 No.14253019
    Some Chaos Marines should be very powerful but not all of them. While it has been 10,000 years in the materium to some Chaos Marines they might have only 10 days. Also Chaos seems to spend a lot of their time doing rather inane shit like building temples and generally doing whatever the fuck they want to do, unlike the loyalists whose life is basically; TRAINTRAINTRAINTRAINTRAINFIGHTFIGHTFIGHTFIGHTTRAINTRAINTRAIN
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)16:58 No.14253037
    5th ed Tyranids would like a word with you.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)17:00 No.14253059
    Its reversed.
    Loyalists go
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)17:02 No.14253075
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    Just add some templates to generic space marines.

    >Plague Marines +5pts
    >Any unit adjacement (about ten or less inches away) from a plague marine is treated as having -1 toughness. (But no less then 1) If plague marines are adjacement to each other, they gain +1 toughness. (But no more then +1 toughness this way. So two is just as good as twenty.)

    >Thousand Suns 0pts
    >Allows you to make an entire infantry of librarian units, each individual unit at -3pts, but cannot use non-librarians, and your librarians cannot use cover. Also must attack space marines if able. (So they're like black templars but magic, durpdurp.)

    >World Eaters +6pts
    >Any world eater unit may re-roll a missed weapon skillcheck.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)17:03 No.14253081
    We don't give in for the same reason we wouldn't give in if the Emperor was turned into a large breasted dickgirl who created Sanguinius as her Shota Angel Sex Slave before Horus got blue balls cause he wasn't allowed to fuck either of them so he turned to chaos and killed them both.

    Because it's fucking stupid.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)17:04 No.14253097
    Mark of Tzeentch grants 2++ save.

    I wish this was overpowered compared to Grey Knights.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)17:05 No.14253103

    Space Marines aren't religious. They meditate and what have you, but it's mostly training. They venerate the Emperor and their Primach, but don't worship them, like the Emperor originally intended.

    This is why they are sometimes at odds with the Ecclesiarchy.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)17:06 No.14253108
    Nah man, loyalists train on the way to war zones then fight, then leave and train on they way to the next fight.

    Chaos sit on their daemon worlds pissing about, even in battle they have to waste time appeasing their fickle gods. Angron might have won the first war for Armageddon if he hadn't spent time building huge piles of skulls.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)17:06 No.14253117
    They did in that one "Space Marine" nove- oh that was the one with the farting.
    >> Naggarothian !!0S4L3hs2lkr 03/15/11(Tue)17:07 No.14253118
    >They venerate the Emperor and their Primach, but don't worship them, like the Emperor originally intended.
    No, the emperor did not intend for there to be worship.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)17:17 No.14253230

    That's what I said. I guess I wasn't clear enough.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)17:19 No.14253247
    Up the stats but up the cost. Simple enough.
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)18:02 No.14253645
    I think you have the Word Bearers confused with actual Chaos forces.
    Waiting on your Doomrider ideas...
    >> Anonymous 03/15/11(Tue)20:57 No.14255556
    Just making sure this doesn't die till that Harkan guy gets back from work.
    I want to see his Doomrider changes.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/15/11(Tue)22:16 No.14256472
    Terribly sorry on the delay, patien/tg/entlemen, my friends in real life convinced me to run a game of Dresden Files for them, and enjoy my spring break.

    Now, for the apparently long-awaited stats:
    DOOMRIDER (He does cocaine!)
    WS: 7 BS:5 S:5 T:4(5) W:3 I:6 A:4 LD: 10 Sv:3+
    Wargear: Warp-Runner, Druh'gee.
    Special Rules: Warp-Touched, Madness Grenades, Where'd He Go?, Mark of Slaanesh(Already included in profile)

    Warp-Runner: None except perhaps Doomrider himself know where he found his favored bike. Perhaps it was a gift from Slaanesh himself, perhaps it is the result of Doomrider's fevered innovation. In any case, it functions as a Chaos Space Marine Bike with a built-in twin-linked Meltagun, and its many blades and toxin-spewing vents serve to grant Doomrider +1 Attack (already included in his profile)
    Druh'gee: This Daemon Weapon is razor-sharp, and prone to wailing as it cuts through the air. It functions as a power weapon, and any model that suffers an unsaved wound from the blade must make a Leadership test. If the test is failed, the model suffers Instant Death.
    Warp-Touched: Doomrider, after millennia within the Warp, is more idea than flesh. He enjoys a 4+ invulnerable save, and never needs to make difficult or dangerous terrain tests. However, Doomrider must Deep Strike onto the field, following the rules for Daemons.
    Madness Grenades: As Psychotroke grenades in the Grey Knight Codex.
    Where'd He Go: Doomrider's attention span is notoriously short, and he is prone to vanishing back into the Warp at a moment's notice. At the end of your turn, roll a d6. On a 1, remove Doomrider from play, and place him in reserves. If he was engaged in close combat, the enemy may re-group. If Doomrider leaves the field after the 5th turn, he does not return.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/15/11(Tue)22:29 No.14256618
    Oops, forgot to throw in that Doomrider may assault the turn he enters the field on Warp-Runner.

    SO now we've "completed" ideas for:
    CSM, Chosen, 2 HQs, and 1 cult Elite. Let's look at either fast attack or heavy support.

    So, let's grab the Raptors. Archetypal unit for the Night Lords, and a Cult unto themselves. But can that be expanded? Is there a place for Chaos Assault Marines of other Cults? Time to dig.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/15/11(Tue)22:45 No.14256823

    Raptors used to cost a premium, but were modified to be less expensive, but less terrifying. Let's try and find a middle road.

    We'll use Blood Angel Assault Marines as our guide.
    For 18 points a model, BA AM get Bolt pistol, ccw, frag and krak, jump packs, & the descent of angels, but suffer the risk of the Red Thirst. (Also known as "Oh no, My Assault Marines have Furious Charge!")

    Chaos Raptors, as they stand, should be terrifying. Here's my suggestion:
    Chaos Raptors
    WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:9 Sv: 3+
    Wargear: Bolt Pistol, Frag & Krak Grenades, Close Combat Weapon, Jump Packs/Wings, Mark of Chaos Glory
    Special Rules: Night Falls, Hit and Run, Nightmarish Assault
    Night Falls: When a unit of Raptors enters the field by Deep Striking, they activate smoke-spewing vents to create a dark cloud to hide in. Enemy units are treated as having a range 6" shorter than standard for targeting the Raptors the turn after they deep strike.
    Nightmarish Assault: When charging an enemy unit, the terrible designs of the Raptors' armor, combined with their hellish shrieks, and smoke leaking jump packs, force the enemy to count their leadership as 2 lower for the purposes of combat resolution.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/15/11(Tue)22:53 No.14256937
    This is the default raptor unit: Undivided, terrifying, fast. (price suggested is for 4 raptors, 1 sgt.)
    This is the unit that I say Night Lords should be able to take as a troops choice.

    But what if the other cults want aerial support? Should that be allowed? I'm personally for it, but would like to hear other opinions.

    At present, I imagine the cult units being something like:
    Blood Eagles: Basically berserkers with Jump Packs.
    Storm Crows: Tzeentchian jump infantry for sorcerous insertions.
    Bloatflies: Nurgle's aerial troops, little more than sapient bombs.
    Hawks of Paradise: Slaanesh's distracting, deadly dancers of the sky.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)02:09 No.14259011
    >Changed Crack Grenades to a crap name
    >No Ménage à Slaanesh
    >The instant death isn't guaranteed like the Slaaneshi Daemon Weapon.
    I am sad.
    Otherwise good job!
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)02:14 No.14259051
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    I like it. I want to say that Slaaneshi Raptors should get Jet Packs more instead of the normal Jump Packs. Fluffwise this could represent their preternatural senses and ability to react even while in the air. Let them be able to replace their Bolt Pistols with Sonic blasters and you have a nice chaos bounce.

    Of course Berserkers with jump packs is obvious.
    Tzeentchen Raptors should get a "teleport" they can use once a game similar to The Gate that SM Librarians have.
    Nurgle Raptors are tougher, but some sort of Plague Grenade would fit. A small blast they can place over any one unit they fly over that always wounds on a 4+

    This is assuming that they lose Night Falls at the least for these abilities. Perhaps Nightmarish Assault as well.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)02:17 No.14259078
    Well, nighttime /tg/ seems unwilling to back this, and I'm low on creativity at the moment. I'll throw out my idea for Lucius the Eternal, check back in an hour or so, and if nothing's happened, call it a night.

    You may replace the Veteran Champion of a unit of Chosen Chaos Space Marines bearing the Mark of Slaanesh with Lucius the Eternal for X points.

    WS:5 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:5 A:3 Ld:10 Sv:3+
    Wargear: Lash of Torment, Power Sword, Armor of Shrieking Souls
    Special Rules:Fueled By Pain, A Worthy Opponent, I Hunger For Battle, I Will Never Die

    Lash of Torment: This whip lashes with a power of its own. It reduces the Attacks of any model in base contact with Lucius by 1, to a minimum of 1.If the lash cannot reduce the Attacks value of a model, it will instead lower the Initiative value by 1, to a minimum of 1.

    Armor of Shrieking Souls: Lucius is cloaked by the souls of all those who have fallen to become him. These souls whirl around Lucius, giving him a 4+ invulnerable save. Further, he may channel the souls into a shooting attack, resolved as:
    Range: template Str:5 AP:3 Assault 1

    Fuelled By Pain: Any time Lucius suffers an unsaved wound, he may immediately may an attack against the model that wounded him.

    A Worthy Opponent: Against opponents with Weapon Skill 5 or better, Lucius's Attacks value becomes 5. Against those with Weapon Sill 2 or lower, it becomes 2.

    I Hunger For Battle: Lucius's martial pride and verve for close combat grants him and any unit he leads the Furious Charge USR.

    I Will Never Die: If Lucius is reduced to 0 Wounds in close combat, he may make a single attack against his slayer. If this attack kills the model, Lucius is returned to play with 1 Wound.

    I'm going to watch MLP while I wait.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)02:20 No.14259107
    i like this, it's the cool ideas from the last two editions. although i wonder about him being an upgrade. it seems too... group oriented for him. he's a pretty vain motherfucker.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)02:26 No.14259157
    It appears I grew disconsolate too soon!

    Your complaints are fair, I just didn't happen to like the "Crack Grenades" name. Though Madness Grenades is no better, in retrospect. And Hallucinogen Grenades is too bland. These are all WIP rules/names.

    Ménage a Slaanesh...I originally discounted it because it's too silly. However...if we fluff it to refer to the two Daemonettes he keeps, and his mark becomes a mark of Slaanesh Ascendent...

    I'll look him over again, see if we can reach an accord. He may end up fairly expensive, but hey, drugs ain't cheap.

    I agree that Night Falls and Nightmarish Assault should be traded out for whatever benefits the Cult Assault units get. The problem I have with progressing with the Cult Assault units is that so far, we've not touched on the Cult Troops, of whom I want these to seem a natural extension. (I feel I erred in the structure of that last sentence.)
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)02:28 No.14259183
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    Ah yes this was my next project!

    After doing some digging, I think these guys fit the mold to join Lucius and Cypher as Chosen character upgrades.

    Khorne: Korgha or even Kharne could take this role.
    Tzeentch: Karlsen. I like this guy. Mutated Psyker with a bolter for a hand and tentacles for the other.
    Nurgle: This one was tougher. (no pun intended) But Lothar fits the mold in a way. Ends up becoming Bubonicus.

    If you don't mind Mr. Ironfist I'll leave the initial statting and stuff to you. I just love translating fluff to mechanics.

    But as far as special characters go, we should have far more than enough now.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)02:34 No.14259244
    Hmm. You raise a point. Though this way he's at least more arrogant about who he travels with...
    And I agree with the earlier post that I don't see Lucius as being a commander either..

    Perhaps we should implement an Elite Option: Champion of Chaos. Like the Lone Wolf of Space Wolves, each Cult (and Legion) can have a specific Champion who appears, and fights for them.

    Though I can't locate my Space Wolves 5e file, so I don't know exactly how Lone Wolves work.

    So spending an elite option for a mini-HQ unit...

    I don't know. I'm not fully happy with that idea.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)02:35 No.14259255

    Perhaps, if you want a Slannesh upgrade character you could have Miriael Sabathiel, the one fallen Sister of battle? That would free him up to be a HQ.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)02:37 No.14259284
    I would contribute more than the two Doomrider statlines i did before yours, but i reaaaally don't have enough experience to make much.

    How about dreadnoughts?
    I was thinking give them access to marks.
    Nurgle and Tzeentch might need changing for a vehicle.
    Perhaps the marks could affect the "Crazed" chart in some way? Khorne giving +1 to the roll etc?
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)02:41 No.14259307
    Choke Grenades?
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)02:42 No.14259320
    how about he's an hq unit, but you have to take a lord with a mark of slaanesh first?
    he would be like the warband's champion of chaos
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)02:43 No.14259329
    also, he should be outside the force organization chart, representing his, uniqueness.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)02:44 No.14259331
    They are called Crack grenades because "Krak Grenades". And cocaine.
    Ménage à Slaanesh is meant to be silly.
    But it fits Doomrider better than an ascendant mark imo.
    I think he exemplifies the excess and orgies part more than the perfection part, thus quantity over quality.
    Besides, having two marks of the same god is far less fluff-breaking than most ward stuff.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)02:50 No.14259364
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    I Will Never Die is pretty damn fluffy while not being too over the top, but still has the potential to make him another Yarrick. He seems vulnerable enough to larger numbers of enemies.

    Actually, I have to give in:

    WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A 3 LD 10 SV 3+/3+
    Wargear: Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol, Master-crafted Power weapon
    And They Shall Know No Fear, Gunslinger, The Hunted, Fallen Angel

    Gunslinger: Cypher may choose to fire a single shot from either of his pistols or he may fire them both using the follwing profile

    12" Str 5 Assault 4, Rending

    The Hunted: Any unit, friend or foe, in close combat with Cypher gains the Preferred Enemy special rule.

    Fallen Angel: The unit of Chosen joined by Cypher gains the And They Shall Know No Fear Special rules as long as he is alive.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)02:53 No.14259389
    Give Chaos Raptors back Daemonic Visage and Hit and Run.

    Give Chaos Marines and Chosen back their veteran skills. And give each of the traitor legions back their own special rules.

    Keep the Vindicator. Lose the Iron Warriors Basilisks from 3rd edition.

    And finally, restore Khorne Berserker chainaxes to their 3rd edition rules, where you could only have a 4+ armor save against wounds from a chainaxe. They aren't supposed to be normal close combat weapons.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)02:55 No.14259402
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    I kind of want to second this motion.

    Lucius could be a replacement for the Lieutenant of the Chaos Lord. Same with Kharne I guess.

    Sabathiel would be something new, and far more interesting than Huron as far as fluff goes.

    Make her a high Initiative glass cannon that causes Instant Death.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)02:58 No.14259418
    >Master-crafted Power weapon

    The sword he's never seen using? Even in-fluff? Because it's the broken Lion Sword?
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)03:00 No.14259430
    Lone wolves? Allow me...

    WS: 5 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 W: 2 I: 4 A: 2 LD: 8 SV:3+

    Special rules: Acute senses, fearless, counter-attack

    A glorious death:
    Lone Wolves have sworn solemn vows to die in battle and they concentrate every ounce of their being into fulfilling their oath. They simply do not allow themselves to die until they have brought the fight to the enemy! A Lone Wolf has the Eternal Warrior and Feel No Pain rules. Furthermore, in missions that use kill points. a Lone Wolf does not concede a kill point if he dies in battle.
    Instead, to represent his failure to meet a spectacular end, a Lone Wolf will concede a kill point if he survives till the end of the game!

    Pack of One:
    Other Space Wolves recognize the right of their brothers to seek a glorious end to their saga upon the battlefield. Each Lone Wolf is a one-man unit that cen never join or be joined by other models.

    Beastslayer: Lone wolves typically search out the largest and most hideous enemies they can find in order to win their lost pack's honour. A Lone Wolf may re-roll failed To Hit rolls against walkers, monstrous creatures, and models with a toughness of 5 or more.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)03:01 No.14259437
    Am I the only person that has hated the Rubric of Ahriman ever since it appeared? Thousand Sons armies SHOULD have more chaos spawn, and the standard marines should have mutations!

    Does anyone remember the storys in white dwarf about a Thousand Sons captain with a bolter for one hand a cluster of tentacles for the other? The guy that had to focus on which memories he wanted to keep because he had too many to remember?
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)03:01 No.14259439
    Miriael Sabathiel:
    WS 5 BS 5 S 5 T 4 W 2 I 6 A 3 LD 10 SV 3+
    Wargear: Bolt Pistol, Defiled Blade
    Stubbon, Dark Faith, Die for Me, Mark of Slannesh(Already Included in stats)

    Dark Blade: +2 STR Mastercrafted Power Weapon (Already Included in stats)

    Dark Faith: Any Unit within 12 inches of Miriael Sabathiel may use her leadership for morale and pinning tests. In addition she may treat any squad she joins as a retinue.

    Die For Me: Miriael Sabathiel gain additional attacks at after close combat equal to the dfference in combat resolution. These count towards combat resolution.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)03:01 No.14259440

    He has one in the old codex.

    And it was easier to just add that than have to write a whole new special rule about how he fights with his pistols, and since he has the plasma pistol it counts as a power weapon...

    Though I love the image of Cypher going Gun-Kata on a bunch of ultramarines.

    And the old codex has him at Initiative 8...wow...
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)03:03 No.14259451
    Also, Cypher should never suffer from Get's Hot.
    In addition, Master of Shadows.
    If Cypher is brought down to 0 wounds roll a die.
    On a 4 or 5 Cypher is removed from the board, and does not count towards your opponents kill point total. On a 6, Cypher may be redeployed in any cover on the board with 1 wound.

    (Forgive the wording, I'm crap with such things.)
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)03:04 No.14259457

    Karlsen. He's gonna be the Tzeentchan character upgrade, while Ahriman stays in the HQ slot.

    He's hard to stat without knowing what we got for Psychic powers yet.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)03:04 No.14259459
    Alright. I can work with these. Though, since Korgha's technically dead...
    On the other hand, Kharn makes more sense as a Unit leader than a commander...
    Screw it, I'll write up my ideas for both of them as upgrade Chosen, and if we like Kharn more, we'll make a new Khornate HQ. (Maybe even Harkan Ironfist himself!)
    First up..."Korghas"
    The Slaughterman
    You may replace the Veteran Champion of a unit of Eight Chosen bearing the Mark of Khorne (so, the Veteran and 7 others) with The Slaughterman for X points
    Many are the Champions of Khorne, men devoted to bloodshed and hate. One in particular, The Slaughterman, is notable in that it seems that his face is changed from war to war. Always though, his smoldering glaive is with him, and the path he hews with it unmistakable.
    WS:5 BS:4 S:5 T:4 W:3 I:4 A:3* Ld 10 Sv:3+
    Wargear: Power Armor, Brands of Hate, DaemonGlaive
    Special Rules: Slaughtermaster, Fearless,
    Brands of Hate: Brazen sigils marked on The Slaughterman's Armor grant him a 4+ invulnerable save against shooting or psychic attacks.
    DaemonGlaive: None but The Slaughterman himself knows that the Glaive is the true source of his fearsome reputation. This two-handed power weapon demands Blood, preferably from the faithful. For every wound the UNIT takes, raise The Slaughterman's Attacks Value by 1. He may exceed 10 this way, but every turn that he does, he must make an Strength check or suffer a wound.
    Slaughtermaster: The Slaughtermaster, as well as his unit, gain Preferred Enemy (the enemy), Furious Charge, and Rage.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)03:07 No.14259480
    That's one thing we need. Awesome Psychic powers.
    Chaos needs them, badly.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)03:09 No.14259501
    Blood sacrifice from DoW2 perhaps?
    Unit loses D6 models, get free Bloodletters?
    Perhaps mark that unit, and if it dies the bloodletters spawn.
    So your opponent may choose to simply ignore that squad until the power wears off.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)03:10 No.14259509
    Yeah, something tactical. Like that.
    I'm sick of 'lol shooty attacks'
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)03:12 No.14259524


    Caress of Slanesh: Unit is dropped to init 1 until end of turn.

    Not a fancy power but it would be handy. The nids have a WS and BS version.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)03:18 No.14259570
    I gave the Raptors their tricks. I'm working on fiddling with the chosen, the others are under consideration.


    Alright, so we've got that it works:
    HQ1 lord of X(either a specific cult, or legion)
    2nd HQ- Lieutenant or Champion (here we put like, Kharn, Lucius, a few others.)

    I can work with that.

    So this Mirabel woman is the Slaanesh? I'm all for new blood.
    Hmm. Just read her story. Tricky to convey on the tabletop...
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)03:19 No.14259576
    I tried to roll his crazy survival stuff into the 3+ invul. It's nice and fluffy and everything, but seems...out of place in the newer editions.

    Perhaps instead he can just never count towards victory or kill points.


    Another idea:

    I'm assuming that everyone likes the idea of bringing back the banners, perhaps as an upgrade to the Icons. Obviously, you might as well follow the Space Wolves' lead.

    once per game you can activate the banner etc.

    Khorne: All attacks made by this unit also gain the Rending special rule.
    Nurgle: For every enemy unit killed this round roll a d6, on a roll of a 6, you may place a Chaos Spawn (zombie) into play, 2" outside the combat, under your control.
    Tzeentch: you may reroll any 1's
    Slaanesh: The Unit may act at initiative 10 till the end of the round.

    Obviously costs will have to vary.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)03:31 No.14259649

    Hey, Harkan, are you actually templating this up or just throwing it in a word document?

    I could probably do some stuff in PS if you have a template you want to use or something.

    Either that or I suppose I could do up a diagram of what we have for army organization for...organizational...purposes.

    Or I suppose that boring stuff can be dealt with later...

    Another question for everyone:
    As far as psychic powers go I was thinking something along the lines of 4 for each God and some generics that any Sorcerer would like to have.

    Is this reasonable? I know we'd all like the tables of old for each god, but we should probably rein it in a little bit.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)03:42 No.14259722
    With all due respect to >>14259439, I felt you didn't sufficiently grasp her complexities. So here's my effort.

    Miriael Sabathiel, Sister of Slaanesh
    You may replace a Veteran Champion in a Unit of Chosen Space Marines with the Mark of Slaanesh with Miriael for X points.
    WS:4 BS:5 S:3 T:3 W:3 I:5 A:3 Ld:10 Sv:3+
    Wargear: Blackened Blade, Power Armor, Bolt Pistol
    Special Rules: The Trap is Laid, Black Faith, I Have Plans For You.

    Blackened Blade: This Power weapon, once a holy relic, is now a dark emblem of Chaos. It counts as an Icon of Slaanesh, and a force weapon.

    The Trap is Laid: You do not deploy Miriael or her unit as normal. Instead, select a piece of terrain, and mark on a piece of paper hidden from your opponent.The terrain cannot be in the enemy's deployment zone. When the enemy first enters that terrain, reveal the paper, and place Miriael's unit in close combat with the enemy unit. If the enemy has not entered the terrain by the beginning of your fourth turn, reveal Miriael and her unit.

    Black Faith: Miriael's faith in the Emperor has, by Slaanesh's foul corruption, been converted to sorcery. Miriael is now a psyker, and knows [Arbitrary Slaanesh power A] and I Have Plans For You.

    I Have Plans For You: Activate this psychic power after a round of close combat in which an enemy model was removed, and Miriael's unit is not full. If Miriael passes the Psychic test, add a Chosen Space Marine to her unit. This Marine may not take any special weapons.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)03:48 No.14259747
    4 for each God sounds good.

    And as to how I'm saving it: So far, everything I have thought of has been written in here. Once I thought the thread had died down, I was going to copy and paste it into an Open Office document, cut out anything not useful, and start a new thread another day.

    If you want to get template/organizational stuff going, be my guest. As I alluded to in >>14245687 I'm mainly viewing this as a first-draft/brainstorming thread, sifting through the input I had assigned to a later day.

    Of course, I learned today I'm going to be busier than I anticipated the rest of the week, but that hasn't stopped me before.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)03:51 No.14259758
    You know what? These threads are probably made by lazy GW employees farming the nets for good ideas, good fluff they can appropriate, and actual rules.

    We're doing the bastards' jobs for them.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)03:53 No.14259767

    Fair enough. I just usually get brainwaves while I'm trying to work on something else.

    And I know all about being busy, hence me being in a thread at 3 in the morning.

    Off to write psychic powers...and probably sleep.

    Hope the thread is alive when I get back.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)04:16 No.14259855
    While I have no proof to my claim, I can tell you I am not a GW employee. I'm a college student, at home for Spring Break. I have two other tabs open to flash games and My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, respectively.

    Well, since I can't write Karlsen without know psychic powers, and since Kjax said s/he was going to write up the powers, I guess that means
    I write up the new elite option:

    ULTRA-MARINES (Alpha Legion Agents)
    "Death to the Enemies of the False Emperor!"

    Statline: As Chosen
    Veteran Sergeant Wargear: Teleport Homer
    Special Rules: Unleash the Hydra, Ten Thousand Years of War

    Unleash the Hydra: The Alpha Legion Agents start the game in reserves. Once you roll they enter, select an enemy unit that consists of more than one model. That unit takes d3 strength 4 hits, and you place the Veteran Sergeant within 6" of the unit. The rest of the unit Deep Strikes around the Veteran sergeant.

    Perhaps the best part of this write-up is the potential for all the Agents to have been infiltrating the same unit.
    "ALL of my retinue were Alpha Legion Subverters!?"

    Although I feel they need something more...
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)04:38 No.14259988
    Entombed Elite.
    Eternal Dreadnoughts.

    Take up an Elite slot. There's one for each god, and an Undivided one.

    Anterious: Bloodtomb of Khorne

    WS:6 BS:4 S:6 F:12 S:12 R:10 I:4 A:2(3)


    Anterious is armed with twin dreadnought close combat weapons. In addition, Each is either fitted with a Heavy flamer (10 points) or a combi-bolter (5) points.

    -Smoke Launchers

    Special Rules

    No rest, Only Slaughter!
    Anterious treats all crew stunned results as crew shaken.

    The Grinder!
    Due to many enhancements made by the Dark Mechaincus over Ten Millenia, Anterious' demonic shell can breach the limits of it's material frame. Once per game, at the start of the assault phase Anterious may move 2d6 inches. Any model, friend or foe, that is in base contact with Anterious during this movement counts as being hit by 1 DNCCW.

    After doing so, Anterious cannot move, fire or assault next turn, and counts as being hit in the rear armour by melee attacks.

    Tell me what you think, if anyone's still listening.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)04:44 No.14260019
    My only complaint is that I'm always leery of options on a named character. Otherwise, I like the concept, and the execution.

    Though, could it be a Heavy Support option? We're kind of overflowing the Elite Slots as is.

    I'm becoming more and more amicable to the idea of two separate codices: Chaos and Cult Legions.

    Though the need for both codices to support one another would be troublesome...
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)04:48 No.14260041

    The Ashen: Dustbtomb of Tzeentch
    WS:5 BS:5 S:6 F:12 S:12 R:10 I:1 A:1

    The Ashen is armed with 2 twin linked Inferno flamers.

    -Smoke grenades

    Special Rules

    Inferno Flamers
    Blessed by Ahriman himself, these arcane Flamers fire with the following profile.

    S 6 Ap 3 Assault 1

    All is Ash!
    Once per game, The Ashen may vent searing warp flame from many armatures on his adamantite shell.

    Place an ordinance blast template on top of The Ashen. All models (Excluding The Ashen) roll as if wounded by an Inferno Flamer.

    All is dust...
    The Ashen ignores all Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned results.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)04:50 No.14260057
    I'm really an amateur at this, but i really like dreadnoughts, and I think Chaos dreadnoughts need to be more than, SM dreads but worse...
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)04:51 No.14260064
    It's Dusttomb, not dust bomb, though...
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)04:55 No.14260094
    Morguterian: Fleshhive of Nurgle
    WS:5 BS:5 S:6 F:12 S:12 R:10 I:1 A:2

    (I don't really know what to put as this, probably something similar to Typhus, beyond that I'm not sure.)

    If anyone's interested, I might try my hand at the fluff for these guys, or maybe just the special dreadnoughts themselves.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)05:12 No.14260194
    Dischord: Crucible of Slaneesh.

    WS:5 BS:5 S:6 F:12 S:12 R:10 I:5 A:3(4)


    Dischord is armed with twin dreadnought close combat weapons. In addition, Each is either fitted with a Sonic Blaster (15 points) or a rave cannon (20) points.

    -Extra Armour
    -Intensifier Grenades
    -Agony Array

    Special Rules:

    It's Feels So Empty Without Me!
    Dischord may deepstrike, as following the deepstrike special rules. In addition, he may assault the turn he deepstrikes.

    Intensifier Grenades
    Forgoing the defensive grenades of most of his brethren, Dischord has had his standard smokelaunchers replaced with chemical dispensers filled with some of the most powerful hallucinogenic concoctions known to Emperor's Children Chemartists.

    When deployed, all models within 2d6 inches of Dischord take double the wounds inflicted this turn.

    Agony Array

    This sophisticated sonic array is tuned to the psychical sensation of pain. Not only that, but it is capable of inflicting terrible wounds on anyone within it's wide range.

    The agony array is a heavy weapon that can fire with the following profile.

    S 5 Ap 3 Heavy 3 Blast 36"
    or S 8 Ap 3 Heavy 1 48"

    Or, if it has not been used before, the Agony Array can fire a single beam of Pure Discord. It cannot be fired again after using this setting.

    S9 ap 1 Heavy 1 72"
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)05:13 No.14260202

    Keep on trucking, my friend.

    However, it's 2 AM for me, so I'm going to tuck it in for the night, hope this thread survives until the morning. If not, I've saved it all until this point. (16 pages!)

    ...Actually, I suppose I can try Archiving it, at least for reference.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)05:15 No.14260207
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)06:41 No.14260568
    Iron warriors should get an obliterator character, or specialty
    Oblits that have better stats and get their own models. It works with the fluff.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)07:07 No.14260652
    I say we split the codexes up.

    1 is Codex: renegades

    and the other is Codex: Legions
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)09:15 No.14261112
    I'm sorry I'm late for this, but I've been thinking of perhaps making your HQ be able to take a sort of "I hail from here" ability. There would be one of these for every legion, and it would give tangible effects to the rest of the army. Only 1 of those allegiances may be taken per army, of course, and it would affect everything.
    F'rinstance, 'World Eater Commander <name-x>' would be something like 5pts+MoK price, include MoK, and force a World Eater army limitation upon the rest of the army... Nothing without being Khornate, everyone has the MoK and other benefits apply in replacement of the regrouping rule (as they're now fearless).

    Each legion would have its own abilities and stuff, as well as turning the FoC around just a little.
    But to make this feasible, the Undivided force (or Black legion) needs to have a limit on just how many things it can take from each God. Sure, mark whoever with whatever, but Cult units are Elites. Cult specials would need looking into. But if you have a HQ choice with a mark, Cult units of that mark are also Troops.
    Lord with Mark of Slaanesh then has Noise Marines and Chaos dudes as Troops.

    Obliterators and Raptors should not be markable, they weren't meant to be that way IMO. But raptors COULD possibly be just standard, and Obliterators return to 0-1 and have Relentless as opposed to Slow as shit? I dunno. If you take a legion alliegance, maybe make Raptors OR Obliterators a 0-1 choice (one of either, none of the other).

    >> <E!_Mance> 03/16/11(Wed)09:45 No.14261280
    Mark of Malal. +5pts each man (or +25pts with an Icon if you want it that way).
    Effects: Fearless, +1S, Preferred enemy (Chaos Space Marines, Any Space Marine Chapter)
    Demon weapon special effect: Ignore Invulnerable saves rather than Armour.
    Favoured number: 5
    >> !ZAax4CLxaM 03/16/11(Wed)10:10 No.14261465

    I was thinking for Alpha Legion's special, give them current Chosen's infiltrate and point costs/gear choices, but instead of moving them to a piece of terrain immediately after deployments are done, choose a piece of terrain anywhere on the board, but don't deploy yet. Basically choose to pop out Alpha Legion when you feel like it from that terrain, a nice surprise strike move against your opponent.

    Iron Warrior's heavy slot is easy, give them back the Basilisk, give it Chaos Options (posession and whatnot).

    Night Lords, special jump infantry that causes pinning with their normal bolter shots and/or forces an enemy that loses assault and fails their LD test to not be able to break, just sit there at WS 1 Initiative 1.

    Not sure on the other units.
    >> <E!_Mance> 03/16/11(Wed)10:37 No.14261676
    I know it's late, but can I run this idea by you guys?

    Force chart:
    0-1 Chaos Lord (Disallow Daemon Prince)
    0-1 Daemon Prince (Disallow Chaos Lord)
    Lieutenant of Chaos
    Sorcerer of Chaos
    Aspiring Champion retinue (Chaos Lord and Lieutenant of Chaos only)

    Chosen (Veteran team. Can be marked and have many upgrades)
    Khornate Berserkers (Derp. Better than just marked but not by too much)
    Plague Marines (Derp. Better than just marked but not by too much)
    Noise Marines (Derp. Better than just marked but not by too much)
    Thousand Sons (Derp. Better than just marked but not by too much)
    Blessed (Terminators)
    0-1 Obliterators (Derp. Not 0-1 for Iron Warriors)
    Possessed (Can buy set abilities, no other upgrades)

    Chaos Space Marines (Can be marked)
    Summoned Daemons (Can be one of the 5 standard types: Bland, Daemonettes, Plaguebearers, Bloodletters, or Horrors)
    Chaos Spawn (Not scoring and shit as they are, but they’re not fast attack, that’s for DAMN sure)

    Fast attack
    Raptors (Not 0-1 for vanilla or Night lords, but they are for everything else. No marks)
    Bikers (Can be marked in SOME ways)
    Alpha Legion Marines (Turn 1 Deepstrike or Infiltrate & Scouts? no marks.)

    Heavy Support
    Havocs (Can be marked)
    Predators (No annihilator variant. Can be possessed)
    Defilers (can be marked like a Dreadnought, stay as is. Is nice)
    Land Raiders (Transport capacity 12, like in Ultramarines Dex Be possessed for cheaper than Pred)
    Dreadnoughts (Random roll for actions, options akin to Loyalist Dread, more WS and option for 2 CCWs)
    0-1 Vindicator (Can be possessed)

    Or something to the effect?
    >> !ZAax4CLxaM 03/16/11(Wed)11:54 No.14262338

    Allow the option to field more vindicators, as well as allow Basilisks and servo arms to bring back the flavor and feel of Iron Warriors legion.

    Also we need cultists back, a cheap spammable unit that can claim objectives and screen more important units.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)12:04 No.14262410
    There was another thread about Chaos where we had an interesting take on it. Cultists/Miltia. Militia get +1 BS over cultists, Cultists get +1 WS and options for Marks or somesuch. Aspiring Champion Chaos Marines were absent.
    >> !ZAax4CLxaM 03/16/11(Wed)12:11 No.14262458

    Would be interesting, would also give those who want to do Traitor Guard a way to do it as well.

    Anything that gets a codex more options is ok with me. It is why I love the Grey Knights codex, its basically two armies in one, Inquisition and then Power Armored.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)12:19 No.14262520
    I think you mean Daemonhunters...Grey Knights went full-Slaaneshi on the non-PA options for daemonhunters.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)12:21 No.14262537
    Well, I look at the Chaos Vindicator and Defiler, and see a better siege warfare weapon in it. It's only 25pts more expensive and can fulfill a good defensive role. I mean, who'd wanna charge one of THOSE? Higher BS so it can be on par with the other tanks if possessed, of course.
    If I was part of Perturabo's legion, I'd want to have range and distance. A Vindicator's 24+/-2d6-4" (16-32" range) just doesn't seem as ideal to have lots of. Sure, maybe 1 or 2 in an army, but with S8 AP3 72" range ordnance available?

    BUT! As I said before, I was thinking of adding an Allegiance to a legion as an option for a Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince. It makes the FoC change a bit as so:
    Allegiances taken by Lords (pricey):
    Alpha Legion (Alpha Legion Marines are Troops, Only have Mark Undivided or none otherwise. No cult units)
    Black Legion (Chosen are Troops. Otherwise act as normal)
    Death Guard (Only Nurgle units may be taken. Plague Marines are Troops)
    Emperor’s Children (Only Slaanesh units may be taken. Noise Marines are Troops)
    Iron Warriors (Only Undivided troops or unmarked may be taken. Siege specialists)
    Night Lords (Only Undivided troops or unmarked may be taken. Fear specialists)
    Renegade Chapter (Predator Annihilator variant and Raptors not as good but allowed, no Defilers, Cult units, or Marks)
    Sons of Malice? (Only Zhuvassin units may be taken. Overdriven true chaos)
    Thousand Sons (Only Tzeench units may be taken. Thousand Sons are troops)
    Word Bearers (Daemons don’t take up FoC slots, Daemon spawn do. All marks but no Cults)
    World Eaters (Only Khorne units may be taken. Khornate Berserkers are Troops)
    >> <E!_Mance> 03/16/11(Wed)12:30 No.14262602
    Cont. >>14262537
    By siege specialists, I meant that the big explody stuff and such are more common, so Vindicators have the 0-1 limit removed. Also, Lords, Lieutenants, and Chosen Champions get that Servo-arm and techmarine ability. Techmarines aren't very common in Space Marines armies, so I figure limiting them to HQ and Elites works out well.

    Terror specialists will Ld rape the enemy and such. There will also be a sort of stealth USR and night-fighting combo similar to the Shrouding of olde.

    Zhuvassin units are typically any non-cult unit that are yet to be developed. It was just an idea for now.

    Also, a renegade Chapter is to represent people like Lugft Huron and such.

    And with Cultists, Maybe give an option to take 1 Imperial Guard platoon with only access to basic squads and the Infiltrate rule as an Upgrade?
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)12:56 No.14262788
    While much of this stuff has good ideas I feel like it's a little too much. Especially in a Codex that's looking like it will need a full page for entry...it's just too much.

    Named Dreads are cool and all, but we're already overloaded on special characters as it is. Not to mention Elite slots. I'd personally rather see an options heavy Dreadnaught entry that is able to create most of the deliciousness you added here.

    And while being able to remake any specific legion would be grand, I like the idea that you could still make your own renegade chapter or otherwise. I'd propose the compromise of some more generic Doctrines system that your Lord or Prince can take on top of the mark/Ascendant mark system. We've already proposed bringing Chaos Marines up to par with Grey Hunters and giving them a special rule based on their mark. So it would be easy to add something like this:

    Stealth Doctrine: Undivided Marks cost +X, and any unit bearing the mark gains the stealth or infiltate special rule.

    Daemonic Assault: Undivided Mark costs +X, any unit of Daemons deepstriking within 12" of an icon do not scatter

    Siege Specialists: Undivided Mark costs +X, Infantry units bearing the Mark may have the Tank Hunters special rule. Vehicles bearing the mark, and firing ordnance weapons may re-roll the 2d6, but not the scatter die, when rolling for scatter.

    etc. etc. etc.

    I think with something like this you could at least get the feel without having to add pages and pages of specific rules for each legion and still allow for something along the lines of a Renegade Raven Guard or Imperial fist Chapter. And since there's the 0-1 on the Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord you're limited to one per army. This also kind of keeps the feel of special Characters unlocking army choices. Chaos just gets it in customizable form.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)13:00 No.14262823
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    >Alpha Legion
    >No cult units
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)13:08 No.14262884
    He's referring to stuff like Plague Marines and Thousand Sons.

    as far as actual Cultists go...

    I'd say they should be a stripped down entry with little to no options. 0-X, where X is the number of Dark Apostles in your army. (it should be a marine focused book after all.) With maybe a doctrine to modify that...
    >> !ZAax4CLxaM 03/16/11(Wed)13:20 No.14263029

    I agree, I'm thinking guardsmen stats 6+ armor save and a laspistol with close combat weapon.

    4-5 points a pop, keep them cheap, let them be crap make them troop choices.

    Just this gives so much flavor to chaos imo.
    >> <E!_Mance> 03/16/11(Wed)13:21 No.14263048
    see >>14262884
    And Cultists are a forgotten part of that line.

    Overall, the allegiance entry would take up a page or three, sure. But with 9-10 different sets described in a nutshell (and still well enough to be understood, Malal willing), it ends up smaller than the large-scale 13-page monster it was. And didn't we just LOVE that monster?
    Coupled with marks (marks ascendant are a bit difficult to work with if you include the allegiances, so if it's more wanted that way, I'll back off with this), it will allow some versatility previously only seen in the Space Marines Ultrabro 'dex. And you won't need to take one specific character to give it to the army. You can just make up the character's gear to suit the army and then *plonk!* You're actually Death Guard rather than just Nurgle worshippers and the occasional Plague Marine.
    Then you can take Typhus. But he's probably a Lord.

    This is patently simple if you consider and compare along with the overall mixed-up nature of FoC entries these days (THIS is now a Troops choice and THIS is now a Heavy Support).
    >> <E!_Mance> 03/16/11(Wed)13:25 No.14263099
    Replace Chaos spawn with them, do you think?
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)13:31 No.14263164

    nah spawn have their own fluffy place to be. I want cultists because it shows what Chaos truly is, it is crafty. Cultists would be a great way of showing that corruption affects normal humans, I mean in the fluff there is a lot of chaos cults all over the galaxy, a large amount are just regular humans. So why not show this in the rules?

    A few Legions use cultists as canon, so why not just allow them for people who want to use them? They wouldn't be broken since they get no real weapon options, and even in assault they wouldn't be too hot, which makes them perfect in my eyes.
    >> <E!_Mance> !PmqM6b1Vqg 03/16/11(Wed)13:38 No.14263235
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    While I was only meaning for the legions that have access to Cultists, I see your point.
    And I like the expandability they have, but they'll need numbers. Delicious numbers.

    Also an undying faith in their MAS-TOORHs. Stubborn if within 6-12" of a CSM squad? If we give them Ld7 it won't be all that big a deal.
    >> <E!_Mance> !PmqM6b1Vqg 03/16/11(Wed)13:41 No.14263276
    Also, if I let my typing fingers get too far ahead of me, I might end up making a fandex in the next 12-24 hours. In case I do, and you're all interested, watch this trip... or name... or whatever.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/16/11(Wed)13:52 No.14263390

    I see what you're saying. I guess it's just a question of vision.

    I was just thinking of them as layers of Leadership. An Ascended Nurgle mark coupled with a Infantrymen's Doctrine creates a Death Guard Army. While an Ascended Nurgle with a Daemonic Assault doctrine becomes another monster entirely. And that sort of army tailoring is what endears the idea to me.

    I would have no problem with a two page spread that detailed the old legions and how they'd work out. Example:

    Alpha Legion: May only bear the Mark of Chaos Undivided must have a Lord utilizing the Stealth Doctrine. Cultists lose their 0-1 restriction. All vehicles gain a 0-1 limitation.

    Something quick and simple like that to differentiate them further. Is this reasonable/make sense?
    >> <E!_Mance> 03/16/11(Wed)14:07 No.14263531
    Yes it makes sense. It, plus a small blurb just for the fluff's sake, was how I envisioned it.
    The majority of the Legion's fluff would probably have to be described in the fluff component and in the lurking of the tubes.

    Also, when I mentioned the backing off, I meant with the allegiances. The ascended mark, while a good idea, wasn't mine. If it's more desired...
    >> Fistberg 03/16/11(Wed)14:22 No.14263678
    The names are in no way final or something I'm happy with, but here's my take on some psychic powers:

    Granted by Nurgle:

    Disease cloud: Psychic shooting attack, 12" - Blast
    The Sorcerer summons a deadly cloud ridden with all kinds of imaginable diseases. Models hit by the cloud must take a Toughness test or die.
    (Think jaws of the world wolf, just with added Nurgle)

    The Sorcerer belches a praise to the great grandfather as the world around an enemy unit starts to rot.
    This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". Place a marker next to a unit of your choice.
    In the next round that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain as both difficult and dangerous.

    Mysterious veil:
    All units within 6" of the Sorcerer benefit from a 4+ cover save.
    >> Fistberg 03/16/11(Wed)14:25 No.14263704
    And by take a toughness test or die I actually meant that if they FAIL the toughness test they die.
    >> <E!_Mance> 03/16/11(Wed)14:50 No.14263978

    Oh, and:
    0-1 Chaos Lord 110pts
    WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv3+/5++
    Wargear: Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Power armour, Bolter, Bolt pistol, CCW
    Rules: 5+ Invulnerable save, Independent Character, Fearless, Overlord of Chaos
    Options: May take any of the following:
    Demonic Visage +5pts
    Meltabombs +5pts
    Demonic Strength +10pts
    Demonic Aura +10pts
    Demonic Icon +10pts
    Demonic Armour +15pts
    Demonic Essence +15pts
    Flight +20pts
    May replace either the Bolt pistol or CCW with:
    Power weapon or Plasma pistol +15pts
    Power fist +25pts
    May replace both Bolt pistol and CCW with:
    2 Demonic talons or Poisoned blades +5pts
    Lightning claw +15pts
    May replace Bolter with:
    Twin-linked Bolter +5pts
    Combi-bolter +10pts
    Lightning claw +15pts
    Daemon weapon +25pts
    May take one of the following:
    Mark of Chaos undivided +10pts
    Mark of Khorne +15pts
    Mark of Nurgle +10pts
    Mark of Slaanesh +10pts
    Mark of Tzeench +15pts
    Mark of Zhuvassin +15pts
    If the Chaos Lord doesn’t have Flight or the Mark of Nurgle, he may take either a Chaos Steed or Chaos space Marine Bike for +30pts
    May replace all wargear with Terminator armour, Power weapon, and Twin-linked Bolter for +25pts
    If the Chaos Lord has Terminator armour, he may not select any of the other options unless they have the word Demonic or Mark in their name.
    Chaos Lords in Terminator armour may replace their Power weapon with:
    Lightning claw free
    Power fist +10pts
    Daemon weapon or Chain fist +15pts
    Chaos Lords in Terminator armour may replace their Twin-linked Bolter with:
    Combi-bolter +5pts
    Lightning claw +10pts
    Power fist +20pts
    One HQ in your army may take an allegiance. See the ‘Allegiances’ section for details.
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)15:06 No.14264143
    What of this?
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)15:08 No.14264165
    I'll consider this, and give it a try.

    However, fellow servitors of Chaos, real life makes more demands on my time, so I shall be away.
    >> <E!_Mance> 03/16/11(Wed)20:04 No.14267349
    Naggarok, the First infected.
    WS4 BS5 S6 T6 W3 I3 A3 Ld10 Sv2+/4++
    Wargear: Obliterator weapons, 2 Close combat weapons.
    Special rules: Monstrous creature, Evershifting form, Fearless, Deep strike, Viral Demigod, Feel no pain.

    Obliterator weapons: Naggarok can fire any two (or two of) the following weapons in the shooting phase thanks to being a monstrous creature - TL Plasma rifle, Plasma cannon, TL Meltagun, Multi-melta, TL Flamer, Lascannon.

    Evershifting form: Nagarrok's body is always changing in shape as his insides wrest for control over which guns he is forming on the outside, as such he only moves 1d6" in the movement phase and cannot run.

    Viral Demigod: Naggarok is so deeply infected that anyone in contact with him risks infection with the Obliterator virus, and even a moment's contact with ammunition forces a change in his physical state. Naggarok may take a single Obliterator cult as a retinue if he wishes, taken as normal from the Codex. If he does so, he must stay in coherency with the squad. Also, Naggarok has Eternal Warrior and when he suffers a wound (saved or not) he may add that weapon to the list of weapons he may use. If he copies an ordnance weapon of any kind in this way, he may not move the turn he fires it, and must not fire another weapon that turn.

    Waddya all think?
    >> Anonymous 03/16/11(Wed)22:25 No.14269235
    Leave it to what they did in the last codex, not this bullshit with the icons. This shit and the lack of what they do pisses me off to no end.
    >> <E!_Mance> 03/16/11(Wed)23:32 No.14270042
    Hey dude. I'm using Icons to summon demons only. The marks change what the Icon does and it'll count as a CCW, replacing a Bolter or CCW that's already on the model, so he tunes himself for close combat (good place to summon Daemons near) by still having a Bolt pistol.

    The Mark exists seperate. Any model can hold the Icon, just choose to give it to the Asspie champion like in the old times. Now it acts as a CCW, too.
    >> Harkan Ironfist 03/16/11(Wed)23:52 No.14270286
    A good idea. Sadly, my internet, for reasons I cannot fathom, has gone to shit, so my suggestion was cast to the winds.

    It's been spotty all day, so It looks like I'm screwed for this round of construction.

    Terribly sorry, all.
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)06:35 No.14273484
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)11:03 No.14274595
    Just making sure this thread lives.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)14:31 No.14275951
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    Alright the laying out the psychic powers I came up with. Some might need some work.


    Dark Secrets Revealed: At the beginning of the turn, the sorcerer may target any unit within 12” and reduce their leadership by d6 until the end of the of the turn.

    Bolt of Change: This power is a shooting attack with the following profile
    12” Str 8 Ap1 Assault 1
    Should this attack kill an enemy model be killed by this attack, roll a dice. On a 4+ make another attack against the same unit with Strength equal to the toughness of the model killed.

    Tzeentch’s Ward: Used during the shooting phase. Place a Large Blast template in base contact with the Sorcerer. Any enemy units caught under the template must move so that there are no models under the template and may not assault in their next assault phase.

    All is Dust: Used during the shooting phase. Target unit within 12” must make a Psychic test (even if there is no Psykers in the unit!) If the test is PASSED, the loses models equal to the amount the test was passed by. As no wounds are taken, saves do not apply.
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)14:33 No.14275966

    That last power is just derp, plus it has greater likelihood of killing Grey Knights than conscripts.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)14:45 No.14276103

    That's kind of the idea. The fluff description would describe the psyker opening up the target to their full psychic potential and the ensuing torrent of Warp energy tears them apart.

    Who would've thought Tzeentch sorcerers would good against other Psykers...
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)14:48 No.14276131

    Except that it's not only good vs psykers, but everything with high Ld, including C'tan and Khornate daemons (even with blessing of the blood god they get no saves).

    It's a dumb power and vastly more powerful than jaws of the wolfwolf or the like, with 33/36 chance to kill any Ld10 model instantly.
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)14:49 No.14276142

    So...it kills high leadership models more easily than low? Not sure that's really the best option.

    Though that may be me not liking it making my Cannoness vanishing instantly from a single power.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)14:54 No.14276175
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    But on 2d6 on average you're going to roll a 7. Which means the loss of three models which seems about average for Jaws or even Blood Lance. And since the units owner gets to pick I doubt they're just going to kill off their characters or sergeants. So you have a reliable chance to kill a model...I don't think it's really all that bad.


    Caustic Fog: Used at the beginning of the Turn. All armor penetration rolls made against vehicles within 12” of the Psyker get a +1 bonus. Additionally, the armor saves of any unit not bearing the Mark of Nurgle are reduced by 1.

    Plague of Flies: Used at the beginning of the turn. Until the beginning of your next turn all friendly units within 12” of the Psyker gain a 5+ cover save, even while in the open. Additionally, all enemy units within 12” move as if in difficult terrain.

    Acid Burst: Used during the shooting phase, can be used while in close combat. Place a small blast template in base contact with the Psyker, must make an armor save or suffer instant death.

    Touch of Death: Used at the beginning of the assault phase. All models in base contact with pyker are reduced to toughness 1 until the end of the phase.
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)14:56 No.14276192

    Except it makes little sence fluffwise. People with the willpower to resist the warp are LESS resistant?

    It will also wipe any lone independent cahracter off the board in one shot. A cannoness may have a 2+ inv save but if that gets through the shield of faith, she's gone.

    Same with monsterous creatures. Gone in a single hit.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)14:57 No.14276197

    I can see where sniping characters would be problem... But you can aim Jaws and the other similar powers in the same way. Where as with this you don't get to choose your targets within the unit.

    I guess I wouldn't mind adding that it cannot target single models.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)15:00 No.14276221

    Again, fluffwise I reason it as that the common guardsmen has less latent psychic potential than a marine or any other example of high leadership unit.

    I suppose if it was reversed to how much you failed by their would be a great synergy between Dark Secrets Revealed and All is Dust.

    And this is why I like to have an outside opinion. (And why GW should do more playtesting...)
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)15:02 No.14276232

    Jaws has a 1 in 3 chance of killing a marine, 1 in 6 of killing I4+ monstrous creature or most characters since those are I5+.

    But that power would make elite units worthless.
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)15:03 No.14276240

    Yes but this turns an advantage into a disadvantage. It penalises high leadership, something that logically would make one more resistant to it. JOTWW is a 4+ for a guardsman, only getting crazy with things like carnifexes. This is 33/36 for any leader or high leadership unit.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)15:04 No.14276245

    yeah, yeah, I'm changing it. I like the idea of it working better with the other power.

    This is assuming that Tzeentch sorcerers can still make an extra psychic test each turn.
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)15:04 No.14276246

    And a Necron Lord? He's Leadership 10.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)15:08 No.14276266
    All is Dust: Used during the shooting phase. Target unit within 12” must make a Psychic test (even if there is no Psykers in the unit!) If the test is failed, the loses models equal to the amount the test was failed by. As no wounds are taken, saves do not apply.

    There. See? I changed it.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)15:45 No.14276561
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    Ecstasy: Used as a shooting attack. Target unit within 24” must pass a toughness test or go to ground.

    Perfection: Used during the assault phase. The psyker sacrifices all his attacks to make a single attack against a target enemy in base contact. If the attack succeeds, it ignores all armor and Invulnerable saves and causes instant death.

    Nightmarish Beauty: Used at the beginning of the turn. Until the beginning of your next turn, the psyker and any unit he is part of gain the benefit of defensive grenades and any unit wishing to assault them must first pass a leadership test.

    Excess: Used at the beginning of the assault phase. The psyker and any unit he has joined, as well as any unit they are locked in combat with gain the Preferred Enemy special rule until the end of turn.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)15:58 No.14276684

    Warptime: Just fine as it is.

    Daemonic strength: Psyker gains d3 strength until the end of turn.

    Dark Sacrifice: Used at the beginning of the turn before reserves are rolled. The psyker may remove models in any friendly unit within 6” of the psyker. For each model removed this way the player may improve his reserves roll by one to a max of 2+. May not be used turn one.

    Dark Portal: Remove the psyker and any unit he is a part of from the table and place them anywhere in accordance to the Deep Strike rules. If the unit already has the Deep Strike special rule, they may still assault this turn.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)16:39 No.14277029
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    Think this could be a semi decent layout. Not finished obviously, but just an example of organization.

    Any feedback or Drawfags willing to do generic Chaos looking border art would be awesome.
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)16:41 No.14277053
    For reference, maybe use the 4th edition codex? Whatever its faults, the border art was pretty chaotic.
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)16:46 No.14277095
    For possessed, the mark they take is representative of the daemon possessing them, i.e. possessed with the mark of tzeentch are possessed by horrors, nurgle possessed have plague bearers etc.

    Khorne: Possessed recieve Furious Charge and +1 WS.
    Slaanesh: Possessed recieve Rending and +1 I.
    Tzeentch: Possessed can take a physic power and have a 6+ invulnerable save.
    Nurgle: Possessed recieve Feel No Pain and T:(5).
    Undecided about Undivided.

    Obviously the points cost of the marks would reflect the new abilities.
    And you can select specific mutations for each marine, like wings (jump pack), third limbs (adds +1 attack), acidic blood (enemies take a single str 2 hit for every wound taken by the squad, tentacles (reduces target's attacks by one for each tentacle).

    etc etc.
    >> Fistberg 03/17/11(Thu)17:32 No.14277494
    >Acid Burst: Used during the shooting phase, can be used while in close combat. Place a small blast template in base contact with the Psyker, must make an armor save or suffer instant death.
    Disease cloud: Psychic shooting attack, 12" - Blast
    The Sorcerer summons a deadly cloud ridden with all kinds of imaginable diseases. Models hit by the cloud must take a Toughness test or die.
    (Think jaws of the world wolf, just with added Nurgle)

    I'm not trying to be all OMG CHOOSE MINE OH MY GOD EUGH. What I'm doing with this is attempting to do a side by side comparison.

    What do OTHERS think of these? They're practically the same, but as an ork player I'm never fond of taking armor saves. Hell, I have bigger chances to survive jaws of the world wolf than this. Taking a toughness test would give most units a maybe too decent chance of survival.
    >> Anonymous 03/17/11(Thu)17:37 No.14277532
    >Tzeentch: Possessed can take a physic power and have a 6+ invulnerable save.
    1 in 6 chance of avoiding damage.

    >Nurgle: Possessed recieve Feel No Pain and T:(5).
    1 in 2 chance of avoiding damage

    Great blancing there.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)18:23 No.14277955

    Really, I guess, it's designed that way. It's supposed to help against hordes as opposed to the Tzeentch or Slaaneshi equivalents.

    Originally, I had written it as a toughness test, but if everyone just gets a Jaws, then Jaws isn't as fun or interesting anymore.

    The combination of Dark Secrets and All is dust, I think, would be particularly devastating against Tac squads. Slaanesh has perfection which is really geared towards sniping special characters. Either that or you can pop Excess and hope that Higher initiative can save you.

    So I geared Nurgle against hordes. Where nurgle falls is against smaller units of well equipped elites since power weapons can negate FNP and such.

    Feel free to poke holes in my reasoning.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 03/17/11(Thu)18:29 No.14278007

    So possessed become slightly lesser cult marines...

    If you really want to go down the road of God influencing Mutation it should be more drastic.

    Nurgle: +2 toughness, Slow and Purposeful
    Khorne: Preferred enemy, Rage
    Slaanesh: Fleet, Dangerous terrain tests everytime they run
    Tzeentch: ...got nothing at the moment...
    >> Fistberg 03/17/11(Thu)18:29 No.14278010
    I would say that it's not "just another jaws" because it's a difference characteristic test. It's not a huge difference, but the way it's done by using a blast template instead of a line makes its uses very different. By making it an armor save it becomes a cheap ap1 power.

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