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  • File : 1299958961.jpg-(39 KB, 396x258, Traitor_Guardsmen.jpg)
    39 KB Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)14:42 No.14218107  
    Here's the deal, /tg/, I've been toying with the idea of writing a Lost and the Damned Codex for shits and giggles. Up until now I've mostly been doing research and compiling all the rules for LatD GW has released over the years, and I'm just about ready to start writing the actual rules.

    These are the sources I've been using, if you can think of any others, please feel free to share them: Eye of Terror, Witch Hunters, Daemonhunters, Codex CSM (3e, 3.5e, 4.5e), Chaos Daemons, Imperial Guard (3e, 3.5e, 5e), Codex Catachans (3e), Imperial Armour 5-7 (Siege of Vraks parts I, II, and III), a few Rogue Trader books and every codex release of 5e for format referencing.

    I'm at the point where I need to decide what goes in the "book" and what just plain goes. My next few posts will contain a catch all list of just about every unit that could possibly have a place, and where on the force org chart they should go. Note that a few units are my own (shitty) ideas.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)14:44 No.14218118
    HQ: Exalted Champion of Chaos, Exalted Daemon (kind of like a herald, can be upgraded to a Daemon Prince), Militia Command,Alpha Psyker (rogue psyker from witch hunters), Apostate Cardinal, Beastlord, Summoned Greater Daemon

    Elites:Chaos Marine, Mercenary Marauders (veterans), Big Mutants/Ogryn, Death Cult

    Troops: Militia Platoon, Traitor Guard Squad, Cultists/Rabble, Mutants, Beastmen, Zombies, Summoned Daemons

    Fast Attack: Sentinel Squadron (both kinds), Hellhound, Valkyrie/Vendetta, Beastigors, Barbarian Cavalry, Chaos Spawn, Chaos Hounds

    Heavy Supprt: Russ Squadron (limited variants), Siege Tank Squadron, Predator Squadron (BS3), Heavy Weapons Platoon, Defiler

    Dedicated Transports: Rhino, Chimera
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)14:47 No.14218145
    I'd also like to include "Advisors," but I'm having I can't decide how to fit them in. Should they all be Independent Characters, squad upgrades, or old school advisors that permanently join units.

    They would likely be Aspiring Champions (CSM Sergeants), Enforcers (demi-Commissars), Rogue Pyskers, and Apostate Preachers
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)14:49 No.14218160
    I'm not sure about predators. Aren't these very rare outside SM forces?
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)14:52 No.14218184
    Since Special Characters are all the rage these days, a few would have to be included.

    I'm thinking a CSM Sorcerer for Nurgle, a Mutant Sorcerer for Tzeentch, a blood-crazed Beastlord for Khorne, and an Exalted Daemoness for Slaanesh.

    We'd also need a Creed counterpart, of some sort.

    I was planning on giving the CSMs a chance to upgrade to either Alpha Legion or Word Bearers, who would be given special rules like the cult units from the CSM book (berserkers, plague marines). The Exalted Champion would also have similar options, such as being upgraded to a Dark Apostle.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)14:54 No.14218204
    Whats the difference between Mutants and Beastmen? Are Beastmen a Chaos-worshiping Abhuman strain or something?

    Other than that, I think that cutting the Exalted Daemon for just a Daemon Prince and grouping the Witch, Apostate and Beastmaster into the "adviser" role would be best. Maybe turning summoned Daemons into an Elites choice. The codex really should be showcasing the human cultists more than anything else really.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)14:54 No.14218213

    Well, they have been used by regular traitors in at least one Black Library book (the first or second Ragnar one, if I'm not mistaken). Remember that they are supposed to be some of the simplest tanks to make.

    I was planning on having them be crewed by renegades instead of marines, so they would have BS3 for a very small points reduction. I'd only include them if I can make them balanced.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)14:59 No.14218257

    In the fluff, they tend to be anything from a rogue psyker to a CSM. Though a CSM might be unfair as IG doesn't seem to sport SM... But it happens all the time in the fluff.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)15:01 No.14218273

    Good points all around.

    Apparently Imperial Armor 6 (Vraks part 2) had Khornate Beastmen as a unit. The ones in this book would be more vanilla. Looking back at old fluff (when they were still usable by the IG), beastmen were considered abhumans like Ogryns or Ratlings do to the relative stability of their mutations, rather than generic mutants.

    As for mutants, though, I was planning on copy-pasting (with some modernization) the ones from Eye of Terror/Witch Hunters. They would start out cheap, but would have a couple of tasty upgrades that, when stacked, would make them very expensive but very killy.

    As for summoned daemons, I agree that they need to be limited, but I'm not sure how. I was thinking about restricting them by the number of other units in the army; ie, you cannot have more units of summoned daemons than you do other troop choices, that kind of thing, The elites thing might work better, though.

    I'm up for suggestions.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)15:09 No.14218348
    One of the things I'm having the most difficulty with is in separating the different IG ripoffs.

    Traitor Guard would be renegade guardsmen squads, rather than platoons, they would have similar LD and upgrades, but would be 5-15 models per squad

    Mercenary Marauders are something (kind of) of taken from the Tyrant's Legion in IA9. They are veterans (BS4), but aren't necessarily Chaos followers. I'm thinking they would have the same 2-3 special weapons per squad thing, but have something like power weapons counting as special weapons. They'd probably have some sort of "mission" special rule like the IA9 ones/IG Veterans/IG Stormtroopers.

    Militia are weedy PDF kind of guys. Their platoons would only include a command and infantry squads (w/ the combined squads rule). Obviously they would have shitty leadership, but I have to admit I'm rather partial to the random leadership form the Renegades and Heretics list (probably too much rolling though). Perhaps their officers should be like the old Catachan Codex ones, a single model rather than a squad. Their codex entry would be something like: 2-5 Militia Squads, one of which must upgrade its Agitator (sergeant) to a Militia Officer.

    Same problem with the HQ version. Should they be squads like the IG ones, platoons like the old IG/current renegades and heretics list, or Independent Characters?
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)15:15 No.14218405

    You're probably right.

    So, who else is in favor of getting rid of the Aspiring Champions?

    Also, the Renegades and Heretics list has some fun rules for the basic Rogue Psyker. If he suffers a Perils of the Warp, he gets possessed rather than taking a wound (which he only has 1 of anyway).

    Here are some references for the current Renegades and Heretics rules from Forge World. The second one has the "Bloodgor Beastmen Attack Squad" on page 142.


    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)15:20 No.14218445

    The thing with an army list is that it should be familiar as what it is no matter the composition. You need to be able to look at the army and tell from a glance that, "oh yeah, this is X".

    As it is, you could take a Daemon Prince/Greater Deamon and a bunch of summoned Daemons and it would look like a Daemons of Chaos list. You could take a Daemon Prince, max out on Space Marines, toss in the Preds and have only minimal of the troops. If the Daemons remain troops it would dilute it even further.

    So here's how you do it. Take HQ and chop the options down to Exalted, Traitor General and 0-1 Daemon Prince. If you want advisers, they should be Demagogues, Witches and Traitor Marine Lieutenants. Cut the Marines as a unit. Any Daemons need to be Elites. Death Cult can get cut. The ones that don't venerate the Emperor would be indistinguishable from cultists or veterans anyway. For troops, condense the militia and the traitor guard. Both would be poorly equipped/maintained due to current allegiances and would look alike. Condense Cultists and Mutants. Mutations would be squad upgrades. Beastmen and Zombies can stay. Spawn are big and lumbering last I checked. They should be Elite or Heavy. Beastigors should be cut if we are going by the Beastmen=Abhumans assumption. Chaos Hounds are kinda nice but superfluous if you have Chaos Calvary. They serve the same purpose. One of them should be pruned. Predators should be cut.

    That makes things more elegant and solves any identity crisis that the list would go through
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)15:22 No.14218462

    Codex tyranids allows you for one of the best representations of lost and the damned. Take a look at this.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)15:23 No.14218469
    HQ 395
    Nurgle Deamon Prince (count as hive tyrant) Acid Blood, Armoured Shell, Regeneration, Old adversary 275
    2 Beast of Nurgle Count as Tyrant Guard 120

    Elites 440
    3 Possessed Psykers of Tzeentch (count as Zoantropes) 180
    3 Big Mutants with Big Guns (count as Hive Guard) 150
    2 Possessed psykers of Nurgle (count as venomtropes) 110

    Troops 658
    20 Mutants (Count as termagaunts w Devourers) 200
    5 Deamonettes of Slaanesh (Count as Genestealers) 70
    5 Deamonettes of Slaanesh (Count as Genestealers) 70
    28 Hounds of Chaos (count as Termagaunts) 168
    15 Mutants (count as termagaunts w Devourers) 150

    Fast Attack 63
    9 Furies of Chaos with warp fire (Count as gorgoyles) 63

    Heavy Support 200
    Greater Deamon of Slaanesh (count as Trygon) 200
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)15:24 No.14218477

    The hounds are suppossed to be hormagaunts
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)15:26 No.14218499

    In Gaunts Ghosts (which they fight mostly traitor guardsmen), some units are very well equipped and very well trained. Most notably the Khorne followers (i forgot the units name) who were noted to be actually not suicidal and were very tactically well trained and had better gear than sometimes the IG themselves and had a baneblade to back them up.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 03/12/11(Sat)15:32 No.14218538

    It looks good, I also think the zombies should go. Cult units could be a 0-1 affair which could also work.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)15:33 No.14218545

    You make a strong argument.

    Renegade Guardsmen, in the canon, take their gear with them, including tanks. They are supposed to be much better armed than normal Chaos followers. If anything, the militia should be cut completely.

    I think CSMs should be included, but I agree that their roll has to be reduced. How about we make them a retinue for the Exalted Champion? You'd get one as a troops choice, but only if you take the HQ guy.

    As much as I'd love to agree about the mutants/cultists, I think they are just too different from each other; at least the ones I'm using. The cultists in Chapter Approved (2001) are basically conscripts while the Witch Hunter/Eye of Terror mutants are actually pretty good. Then again, now that I look at it, their base stats are basically the same as the IA6 beastmen, but with a few more options and +1 attack. I suppose it would be for the best to combine mutants and cultists, if only to separate them from the beastmen (if we keep them) that much more.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)15:37 No.14218569

    Or we could go the Ward route and have them available only if you take that Nurgle Chaos Marine character.

    Also, what do you mean by "cult units?">>14218538
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 03/12/11(Sat)15:40 No.14218591

    Them be the Blood Pact, big ass cult that focuses more on the martial aspect of Khorne than lolkillkillkill.

    Im writing a mini-dex for them at the moment actually. Its a varient on an Imperial guard, with +WS and special IG stuff taken out and replaced with chaos, ie the options to take a squad of beserkers, spartians (a cross between beserkers and the emporers champion, a daemon prince hq and gore mages, which can turn one of your infantry units into savage beasts for one turn as a power.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)15:43 No.14218615

    If you want Traitor Legionaries there are other Chaotic factions that could use some representation as well. Crone World Eldar are a very rarely mentioned and few in number but implied to be obscenely powerful force. They could get an HQ slot or something as well. Or at least a special character.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)15:43 No.14218616
         File1299962634.jpg-(146 KB, 750x600, ColouredCultistBlackLegion_1.1.jpg)
    146 KB

    Chaos cultists used to be a unit chaos armies fielded back in the day. Sadly, I can't find them on the offical games workshop site. They are included in DoW1 at least as an entry level unit.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)15:45 No.14218634

    If you think about it, we could always combine the Traitor General, Apostate Cardinal, and Alpha Psyker together. Both the General and Cardinal would likely focus on raising morale and making militia-like units (more) reliable. If we give them the option to take psychic powers, it would also add some narrative as to WHY they went rogue in the first place.

    I like your plan for Advisors. Having both Enforcers AND Aspiring champions was redundant. The Renegades and Heretics Enforcer was only good for the 2wounds and Demo Charge anyway. Plus, it's not like we couldn't give the CSM lieutenant a Summary Execution type rule.

    As for Demagogues and Witches, I very much like that terminology. Rogue Psyker and Apostate Preacher are out (kind of).
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 03/12/11(Sat)15:48 No.14218651

    Beserkers, Plague marines, Thousand sons and noise marines. Say your boss takes an icon and this in turn gives the "blessing" of the god in questions pet forces.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)15:57 No.14218713
    For troops, combine the cultists and militia into a single option similar to IG conscripts. Traitor Guard can be more expensive than their loyalist counterpart but should be able to take boons from their chosen patron and have more CC options.

    There should be an option for generic xenos mercenaries in the elite section that could be very customisable like Inquisitorial retinues in the new GK codex.

    Drop the Imperial armor, sentinels and flyers. Use some of the old Chaos vehicles that were in Epic. Hell talons, Brass scorpions, Cauldrons of Blood or similar. Perhaps bring in Abnett war engines in the form Traitor Legion tanks, walkers and vehicles distinct from their imperial equivalents.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)15:58 No.14218722
    > Beserkers, Plague marines, Thousand sons and noise marines.

    Oh dear, I thought I was being unclear. Looks like I was right. My apologies.

    What I meant was that we sh/could include Alpha Legion and Word Bearer squads, at least as an upgrade; in the same way the cult units have their own rules in Codex Chaos Marines. I don't think they'd fit very well with the army's theme. Alpha Legion and Word Bearers, on the other hand, are always dicking around with renegades/cultists/etc in tow. It's part of who they are. The catch is, Alpha Legion tries to make good use of them while Word Bearers kind of use them as meat shields.

    God dedicated marines should be downgraded to mere Marks of Chaos, if anything.

    Speaking of which, what about Marks of Chaos? What are we going to have the same ones as the CSM book? Khorne: +1A, Slaanesh: +1I, Nurgle: biker style +1T, and Tzeentcn: invulnerable save?

    They'd have to cost a shitton of points since they'd be giving their effects to so many models (in some units).
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:02 No.14218753

    If Cult Units are going to be implemented, than they should be their own unique Human equivalent. Blood Pact for Khorne. Plague Zombies for Nurgle. I can't think of any existing units for the other two. They'd have to be made up. Time for some quick inspiration.

    Tzeentch cult would be the Nephilim. A "cult" dedicated to the pursuit of understanding of the Warp. While some human factions believe that humanity is to enter a new golden age by becoming a fully psychic race, the Nephilim go a step further. They believe that all human suffering can be stripped away should the secrets of elevating flesh to daemonhood becomes a science available to all. Sorta a magical trans-humanism. Their flesh contains an inner luminosity and they are renowned for their sorcery. Essentially works like a Battle Psyker squad a la Codex Imperial Guard.

    I think up something for the Slanneshii cultists later. I cannot think of an equivalent unit to snag from another codex.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:06 No.14218778

    I think cult units should just be implemented with stat changes and/or weapon options and allow people to make their own units/cults/fluff up.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)16:08 No.14218797

    Hmm. Combining the cultists and militia might work. Perhaps they start as cultist squads (say, 3-4pts per model) with W/BS2, but can take W/BS3 as an upgrade? Or perhaps just separate choices in the same platoon?

    "A Militia Cultists Platoon consists of 2-5 of the following: Militia Squad (W/BS3), Cultist Squad (W/BS2). One squad must upgrade its Agitator to a (cult officer?)."

    How about their leadership? I say have the militia have random leadership (D6+4, rolled the first time they need to use their LD) and have Cultists have a base leadership of 7 (as they are fanatics, in their own way). That way, you'd have to decide if you want your dudes to be skilled, but cowardly, or brave but untrained. It's a possibility.

    If we did that, we'd probably have to combine Mutants and Beastmen together. Might as well, really, they were closer related to each other than the normal humies anyway. Plus, this way they could still have extra mutant upgrades like the Witch Hunters ones, but could still be modeled as Beastmen.

    Everyone wins!
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:09 No.14218799
    Suggest making Alpha Legion a separate unit or HQ upgrade, as they're rather "hands-off". Legion cultists are either the usual cultist rabble (not the focus) or well-trained, professionals closer to guardsmen scouts or stormtroopers. In neither case are the Legionnaires really involved as part of the squad; they're generally just behind the training and giving orders. Now an upgrade with Operatives...
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)16:13 No.14218844

    You know what, scratch all that about the cultists and militia. It was a silly idea.

    It's one squad type, but with EITHER BS3 (Militia) or WS3 (Cultists). The "Junior Officer" would be similar and would either be called a Militia Officer (BS4 WS3?) or a Cult Leader (WS4 BS3?). Something like that.

    Should they still be in squads that can group up into large units or should they be just a large blob to start with?
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:16 No.14218883
    Militia should get frag grenade upgrades and start with lasguns/autoguns, cultists get laspistol and CCW?

    There is a difference. Cultists are batshit zealots, militia are slightly trained civilians who got the chaos taint later.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:17 No.14218891
    yea, You could upgrade the CSM HQ to either ALpha Legion or Word Bearers. The former lets you take Alpha Legionaries as a squad leader replacement and Cult of the Hydra cultists as an elite choice (like stormtroopers). Word Bearers lets you take a few Word Bearer csm squads in elites, but restricts your daemon options?
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:22 No.14218931
    >Word Bearers
    >restricts daemons
    >what the hell am I reading

    Maybe force you to take cultists instead of militia, with the IG chekov rule to make up for it? Word Bearers are all about the zerg rush, insane human waves, and black faith...
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:26 No.14218962
    gah, I got their thing for not taking cult marines mixed up with daemons somehow, your ideas a good one tho

    Id say combine those two, Militia shoot better and have grenades, cultists fight better and get chaos mark upgrades. So still separate squads in the same platoon
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)16:27 No.14218969
    Okay. Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and vanilla Chaos Marines. What do we do with them?

    Alpha Legion is generally covert and focus on tactical support.

    Word Bearers focus on keeping the rabble moving towards the enemy.

    Vanilla Chaos Marines are there to protect their Exalted Champion and couldn't care less about the normal mortals in the army.

    I still say we have Legion/Bearers as an upgrade, albeit a costly one; similar in format to Marks of Chaos and chosen at the same time (which would prevent someone from taking Khornate Word Bearers, for example). AL= their "mark" would give them either Infiltrate or Scouts, perhaps w/ their first round of shooting causing pinning. WB= like an expensive mark of chaos undivided, but lets friendly units within 6" reroll failed morale, or perhaps raises it by 1, or something of that nature.

    How about the CSMs in general are not normal ones, but Chosen Marines (they still have 1 attack, after all) with a few fewer options (in terms of gear)?

    What are your opinions on having them be available only as a modern-style retinue for Exalted Champions? Obviously they'd need to take any of the same marks that he did.

    Something similar could be done for Summoned Daemons; have 1 or two become troops if you take a Daemon Prince? Perhaps that could be an upgrade for him: "Herald of Chaos (xx points), allows (xx) units of summoned daemons be taken as troops choices provided that they share the same Mark."
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:30 No.14219000
    Daemons shouldn't be troops. They're terror weapons. On that note, FIX DAEMONS. Make them terrors that are a match for anything 1:1 short of a Grey Knight. There's a reason Daemons are an OH HELL NO moment in dark heresy.

    Rewritten Daemonhosts for "arch-heretic" or sorceror HQs?
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)16:32 No.14219022
    >Militia shoot better and have grenades, cultists fight better and get chaos mark upgrades

    Okay, I like that A LOT. That's a brilliant way to combine the two.

    Still, should they be in platoons or just large squads? I vote for platoons (2-5 squads of 10), perhaps with cultists using the "Combined Squads" rule as mandatory? I still haven't read anyone's opinion on how to handle officers. Should they get their own squad or be forced to join one of the other ones like old school Catachans (I vote for Pedro- I mean this)?
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:36 No.14219061
    Cultists wouldn't really have the organization. They're really just crowds, so...large squads? Mobs of madmen charging to the enemy, hoping to take a Smurf with them and waste ammo...
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:39 No.14219094
    Yea, platoons, where your cultists squads are lumped together (unless you have a Word Bearer or Alpha Legionaire in there to force some order on them). Just give militia a junior officer or sarge or some shit.

    gotta say I like their take on CSM, though I'm at a blank as far as what the Vanilla csm get, though your exalted idea seems solid enough.

    As to daemons, I'm tempted to say take a daemon HQ and get access to the appropriate Codex:Daemons troops as summoned elite options
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:45 No.14219138
    Named unbound daemonhost? Give it sorcery, a special rule that sends the likes of guardsmen running in they get too close, and a "reknit host form" thing from the offical dexes.

    Basically, this thing is rape bound into a host form, and still deadly inspite of it. What daemonhosts should be, not CHAINS AS CLOSE-COMBAT WEAPON LOL.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)16:48 No.14219172
    nice trips

    We've pretty much decided to make Daemons Elites. As for making them better, what do you suggest? I was planning having their base stats be (nearly) identical to the CSM ones, but with some fun unit upgrades (similar to the Daemonunters ones), the option to take Marks, and squad character upgrades like a banner, champ (who could take power weapons, or something), or musician.
    How does that sound?

    As for Arch-Heretic/Daemonhosts, I think the current plan is to combine them all into the Traitor General (we can work on the name) entry. He would be like an IG senior officer, but could be upgraded to a psyker and would have fun wargear options. This would also allow him to serve as a rogue inquisitor.

    I feel like the Mercs/Marauders would be able to fulfill a lot of the rolls currently left open. Let's have them be a combination between Inquisitorial henchmen and IG Veterans in that they can take ogryns, daemonhosts, and a few xenos, but would be made up mostly of BS4 humans. The squad would be allowed to take, say 2-3 special weapons (including power weapons?) and a heavy weapon team. Still, I say keep them as an elites choice.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:51 No.14219204
    Not sold on the daemons...I think the approach to them by GW is flawed. They're ungodly combatants, laugh off mortal wounds, and are grounds for exterminatus.

    On the other hand, they're not really supposed to be here.

    Daemonic instability, but otherwise ungodly stats?

    As for rogue general, daemonhosts in retine maybe?
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)16:57 No.14219249
    the mercs idea seems sensible enough. Defianately no marks, so maybe buyable "specialization" upgrades? (Tank hunters infiltrators/scouts, fearless, ect).

    For making daemons better, I'd say go for codex daemons, but make their roles more pronounced, or give them some crazy god appropriate upgrades

    Righ now we've got HQ: CSM, Trator General (wip name) and Greater Daemon

    Troops: Traitor Guard squad, Militia/cultists platoon/mob, Beastmen, Zombies, (slanesh cult unit), (Tzentch cult unit)

    Elites: CSM squad (?), Summoned Daemons, Mercs, Cult of the Hydra (?), Spawn/Big mutant

    havent really hit HS or FA yet
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)17:01 No.14219285
    Alrighty then, we're making some progress. Here's a tentative look at the army roster as-is:

    HQ: Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion (can be upgraded to a sorcerer?, Traitor General (can be a psyker)

    Advisors: Aspiring Champion, Demagogue, Witch [note that we still need to put number limits on all of these guys; I'll start us off with 0-5 and we can work from there]

    Elites: Big Mutants, Summoned Daemons, Mercs/Marauders (still don't entirely know what they're going to be)

    Troops: Cult Militia Platoon (2-5 squads; cultist HAVE to combine them and have WS3 BS2 w/ CCW and laspistol, can take Marks; militia have BS3 WS2, grenades, lasguns, and heavy weapon options?), Mutants (beastmen as basic profile, can take upgrades)

    Fast: Sentinels, Hellhounds, Chaos Spawn

    Heavy: Russ Squadron, Siege Tank Squadron, Heavy Weapon Platoon

    Units in Limbo: Chaos Marines (including or not including Word Bearers and Alpha Legion), Daemonhost HQ (sort of what I was originally going for with "Exalted Daemon," only this idea makes sense), Barbarian Cavalry/Chaos Hounds, Zombies

    As for the Barbarian Cav, I say we combine them. Unit consists of 5-10 Horsemen (guns + weapon options) and 0-5 Chaos Hounds (which would have good fightin' stats, possibly rending), and maybe even some sort of large beast. The unit would basically be like Deldar Beastmasters, but sort of reversed.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)17:04 No.14219302
    defianately give the Trator General a daemonhost option for his retinue, maybe have it take up two slots as a balance tho?

    Also, an Apostate Cardinal, Bestigor warrior, and Dark Mechanicus aid? Limit two, each one gives you a different bodyguard option other than trator guard vets maybe?

    Cardinal gives you god appropriate bodyguards, Bestigor veteran beastmen, Mechanicus a few different flavors of servitor.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)17:04 No.14219305
    Perhaps make the Mercs have 'Contracts', which work similarly to IG Stormtrooper 'Special Operations'...

    For example...

    Contracts: A Mercenary Marauders unit may pick one of the following contracts before the start of the game...

    1) Tread Detail: 'The Mercs have been hired to take care of enemy armour, and have been equipped accordingly. They gain the Tank Hunters USR, and Meltabombs.'

    2) Pillage, and Slaughter: 'The Mercs have been hired to sow discord amongst the civilian populace, and use violence to draw out enemy forces, only to have them run into a larger force than expected. Liberal amounts of loot are taken in the process of course...

    The Mercs gain either the Scouts or Infiltrate USR's, and Move through Cover.'

    3) Bodyguards: 'The Mercs have been assigned to protect and important individual in the uprising... So long as they remain within 6 inches of an HQ choice, one per turn if that unit is fired upon, this unit may fire with a single shot (even if they would normally fire multiple shots) at the firing unit, provided the weapon has range.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)17:07 No.14219321
    Summoned Lesser Daemons: 13pts WS4 BS0 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD10 Sv5++

    Wargear: single close combat weapon

    Options: Marks (CSM prices); Chamion (+1A +3BS) can have power weapon and/or shooty attack; musician (+1 combat res);

    May take one of the following:
    Poison (4+)
    BS3 + Gun (codex daemons one)
    Cause Fear (pinning test, 6-12", -1 leadership)

    Still an early work in progress.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)17:07 No.14219322

    Just fixing some grammatical errors...

    >3) Bodyguards: 'The Mercs have been assigned to protect and important individual in the uprising... So long as they remain within 6 inches of an HQ choice, one per turn if that unit is fired upon, this unit may fire with a single shot from each weapon (even if they would normally fire multiple shots) at the firing unit, provided the weapons have range to the target.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)17:12 No.14219371

    I think it would be easier just to have the general's bodyguard have options for different bodyguard types, rather than options that unlock other options (gets confusing)

    I believe he should be like an Inquisitor, w/ his bodyguard being similar to a Henchmen squad. But that might make them too close to Marauders; the only real difference being Marauders take missions and Bodyguards can take Marks and cultist type units.

    Difficult decision.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)17:15 No.14219394
    replace "Bodyguard" with something like:
    3) Battle Command. The Mercenaries have been hired to give order to the poorly trained rabble.

    The Mercenary Squad may be split up as independant characters attached to any cultists or militia squad. (Mercenary gains commisar style rules for keeping order as well perhaps?) and you have a deal.

    Allow up-costed CSM as an elite, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers as upgrades. It is common for CSM to be behind revolts after all...

    As to the horsemen, I like the two units combined. Hounds/mutant hounds (2 hounds per rider, 1 mutant/upgraded hound per 4 normals)
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)17:17 No.14219415

    Instead of having them guard an HQ (since Daemon Princes are Daemon Princes, Exalted have Chaos Marines, and it looks like Generals are getting a bodyguard unit), how about having them guard an objective?

    Make them stubborn as long as they are within 6" inches of an objective and give them overwatch (if someone tries to charge them while they are within 6" of the objective, each model may fire 1 shot from any single weapon they carry at the charging unit).

    Maybe if the objective is contested at the end of the game, they CLAIM is on a D6 roll, or something? That might be too OP, though
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)17:21 No.14219444
    >The Mercenary Squad may be split up as independent characters attached to any cultists or militia squad.

    We kind of already have have Advisors, though. Good possibility, however.

    Once again, I totally agree about he CSMs. I still say they should be an Elite choice, possibly as Chosen w/ fewer options, and I just think having Alpha Legion and Word Bearers as upgrades would be easier than making a whole new unit.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)17:24 No.14219469

    All good suggestions to change it. Also, there's nothing that necessarily limits it to three choices, but I would say no more than four options.

    3) Battle Command: 'The Mercenaries are crack troops, but with the rest of the uprising being a veritable rabble, they have been assigned to take charge... This unit becomes a group of independent characters that MUST begin the game attached to a Militia, Cultist, or Traitor Guard unit. The unit gains +1 leadership, and may always regroup regardless of the remaining models in the unit.'

    4) Objective achieved Sir!: 'The Mercenaries are experts in seizing control of areas, or items of tactical importance, and making sure they stay firmly in their contractors hands... While within 6 inches of an Objective, the unit gains the Stubborn USR. In addition, if fired upon, each model in this unit may fire their weapon once at the unit that fired at them.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)17:27 No.14219502

    Oops, Troops should be: Cult Militia, Traitor Guard Squad, Mutants

    The jury is still out on Zombies (you know you want them).

    And we really need to settle the CSM thing, though.

    Also, should we allow ANY way for Summoned Daemons, even a few of them, to be taken as Troops?
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)17:30 No.14219533

    I still don't like them joining other units, that what we have advisors for.

    Let's have Battle Command give them a radius in which friendly units can use their Leadership, or at least gain +1LD. That wouldn't be as good as some of the other options, though, and that's more or less the ability I was thinking the Word Bearers would have.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)17:31 No.14219535
    Hell yes zombies should be troops! Some sort of nurgle psyker to lead them for an upgrade (maybe zombies have frenzy, but the psyker lets them act as normal?)

    And no, CSM shouldnt be allowed outside elites unless you take the appropriate HQ upgrade, Daemons should never be allowed outside elites ever. period.

    As to CSM, I guess up-costed exalted could work. Alpha Legion gets scouts, infiltrate and move through cover. Word Bearers get fearless, and maybe provide a 12" teleporter homer effect for daemons?
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)17:35 No.14219578

    Scrapping Battle Command then, since it seems to be fufilled by other units...

    3) Headhunters: 'Commissars, Captains, Priests of the corpse god? All must die... If this unit scores a killpoint by killing either an HQ or an Independent character, the player that controls this unit scores an extra killpoint. This ability may only be used once per game.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)17:47 No.14219660
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    eh, too scenario specific.

    Whered Bob go? dumping with cultists to keep the thread alive
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)17:55 No.14219735
    Let's work on the named character a little bit. We'll need one for each of the chaos gods, a Traitor General that actually is a traitor general, perhaps an apostate cardinal character, and we might as well FINALLY give the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers someone with a name.

    Nurgle: Necrosius, CSM sorcerer from IA7 (vraksIII), buffs Zombies: you can find him on pg 136 using the go to page funcion

    Khargoth the Bloodbeast: Khornate beatstick, probably using the profile of a fantasy Beastlord. Give furious charge to all friendly units within 12"?

    (insert strange name here) Tzeentchian psyker, mutant, can use 2 powers per turn and knows all of the non-god specific powers, +a unique power or two, possibly giving cover saves or something to nearby units

    Lady Yarythe (thank you captcha) the Demoness. Slaaneshi character. Once human, now a demon, but not a Demon Prince. Is an Independent Character w/ an invulnerable save, high WS/I, rending, and forces enemy units to take a LD check at -1 to direct attacks at her (they can still attack other people).
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)18:02 No.14219788
    We still need to work out the Heavy Support and Fast Attack choices. They seem rather bland at the moment.

    Feel free to share your ideas for named characters as well, even if it's just a basic premise.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:04 No.14219806
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    bumping with stalk tank
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:08 No.14219849
    I was thinking of using regular CSMs in a kind of a Space Wolf Wolf Guard sort of way. My reasoning is that regular marines are supposed to be so far superior to ordinary guardsmen that an Aspiring Champion might be considered a waste to be put into one of these forces by the higher powers in chaos.

    So instead have regular squads of CSMs as Elites with the 5-20 man squads as normal for chaos marines, but then have regular marines leading Traitor Guard squads too. The marines have advanced communications so Vox is unnecessary, and all of the squads (up to 20 or 25 men? I don't know what a good size would be) would use that marine's Ld of 9 (which I think would be their greatest asset to the army.)

    I don't know the Alpha Legion or Word Bearers fluff on the subject. This is just my opinion on what I think would happen. I think that marks could be good for guardsmen too. it'd cover a lot of guys, but it'd only increase one stat by 1.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:11 No.14219876
    Some kind of 10/10/10 fast buggy/technical vehicle with autocannons and shit.

    Stick with regular hellhounds and some different version of the banewolf with focus on plague stuff rather than just regular venom.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:11 No.14219878

    Thorin Moloch, Rogue Psyker.

    What I'm thinking for this character, is something along the lines of a physically frail individual, supported by many thralls... Let me explain.

    WS3 BS2 Str3 T3 I3 W2 A2 Ld9

    Unit Composition: Thorin, and 5-20 Thralls.

    Thrall statline

    WS 3 BS 2 Str 3 T 3 I 4 W 1 A 1 Ld -

    Equipment: Laspistols and and close combat weapons.

    Armour: Assorted flak armour, 5+ armour.

    Special rules:

    Mindless: Thorin's thralls are assumed to automatically pass any leadership test they are required to take. In addition, such is the state of these individuals that they have the FnP USR.

    It's not very fleshed out, but I'd say it's a decent start. We always hear about rogue psykers using psychically mind-controlled individuals, so why not have a character that does just that?
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:13 No.14219905
    Alrighty, Psychic Powers time. We need a chart of 6 for the Witch and a list of good ones for Psyker Generals/Exalted sorcerer/daemon princes. Plus thee more, one for each god.

    If we decide to keep the possession thing for Witches (and who wouldn't?), I believe that instead of a 1 resulting in "no usable power," which is lame, it should instead automatically mean the Witch gets possessed. I mean really, these are the "bad guys," a turbulent warp isn't going to scare them out of blowing shit up (besides, they'll get killed if they don't), so getting possessed is rather plausible.

    Here's the Renegades and Heretics one. I think we need to work on the powers a bit; but the possession rules seem pretty solid.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:15 No.14219924
    When Thorin suffers perils of the warp, do you sacrifice D6 thralls instead? If the number rolled is higher than the number of thralls available then Thorin must pass an invulnerable save or takes a wound? Just a thought.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:17 No.14219936
    Blood Pact, and later the Sons Of Sek, a rival organization within the Chaos front.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:17 No.14219938
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    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)18:21 No.14219979

    That name sounds familiar. Wasn't he a bad guy in the Ravenor series?

    Looks great, btw
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:22 No.14219999

    One thing we could do is to actually introduce one of these guys:

    Codex Eldar 2e p.20

    >Of all the servants of Chaos there are few as truly damned as the Eldar Chaos Champions, nor any as utterly at the mercy of their Chaos masters. They are lost to the Eldar race, unacknowledged and forever forgotten by their kinfolk, their souls eternally barred from peace.

    Chaos Eldar army would be dumb as they'd be even fewer in number than the Harlequins, but one could be put in as a special character.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:24 No.14220004
    I always wondered, how do you guys think running a traitor guard unit directly from the IG codex, all conversions being just atheistic, would go?
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)18:27 No.14220033

    Take Straken and a Primaris Psyker for your HQs, Battle Psyker Squads (and possibly ratlings) for Elites, and just about anything you want from the troops. Avoid the fliers, but the rest of FA is open territory. Same with Heavy.

    Not quite sure how it would do, but against another fluffy army it would be loads of fun.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:30 No.14220057
    >all conversions being just atheistic
    I don't think you meant that.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:32 No.14220070
    I'd do that, but then I'd be losing such goodies as daemonically possessed vehicles, marks of chaos, summoned daemons, all of those little things that make chaos what chaos is.

    Also I dislike how as it stands most of the traitor guard stuff you find is Nurgle. What people are working on here is towards chaos undivided. That is awesome.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)18:32 No.14220074
    nice quads

    Very interesting, maybe this could be Lady Yarythe (though she wouldn't be a demon). If an Eldar falling to Chaos is horrible, one falling to SLAANESH would be mind rapingly delightful.

    Though I don't think she should be a psyker, it might be fun to have it/her have a Runes of Warding type rule, maybe with a range restriction, to represent how much weaker the fabric between the materium and the warp is around her (cause Slaanesh takes such a keen interest in her). Of course, she would still be a badass in CC. That's a given.

    What do you think.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)18:35 No.14220091
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    Well, to be fair, a Nurglite traitor guard army might have this guy as the general.

    A one horned one eyed flying purple people eater.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:36 No.14220107

    All Eldar are somewhat psychic, but yeah that would work.

    Although seeing as this would be an Eldar in a predominately human/mutant/warpworshipper xeno army, it could also make sense to make him/her a standalone special character like Mephiston or the Sanguinor, so Infantry but doesn't join squads.

    That would also require giving good saves and Eternal Warrior, but a chaos champion dating from the Fall should be powerful so those are justified fluffwise.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:37 No.14220112
    Uh, I blame the spellcheck. Aesthetic
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:39 No.14220126
    Yeah, I agree a traitor guard codex would be the height of awesome, but as it stands there isn't one you can use in a tournament. Saying that, I can't wait for this project to develop.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:39 No.14220128
    But he's eating my his own army! (very chaosy.)

    I like how in Codex CSM you can have possessed, and those Enhanced by Fabius Bile. The uncertainty of what you're getting and chance for losing your own guys is almost orky. In the new IG codex there's those Penal Legionaries who I think also roll on a chart to see what they do (can't find my IG 'dex right now). We need units like this in the Traitor Codex.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)18:48 No.14220182

    Perhaps the Tzeentchian character can be a Bile ripoff instead of a super-psyker (which would free up that role for the Slaaneshi Eldar character, btw). Maybe give him some sort of extra mutation chart that he can use on certain units (for a small price).

    It opens up some interesting possibilities.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)18:52 No.14220210
    >Project: Codex Traitor Guard.
    >Codex TG
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)18:55 No.14220240
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    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)19:13 No.14220347

    How's this for a profile?

    Lady Yarythe Points 240(?)
    WS8 BS6 S5 T4 I10 A5 Ld10 Sv 3++
    Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Aura of Acquiescence, Soporific Musk, Fleet, Move Through Cover, Dark Rebirth, Damnation
    Soul Eater

    Aura of Acquiescence and Soporific Musk: As in Codex: Chaos Daemons (offensive&defensive grenades, hit&run)
    Dark Rebirth: Some of the most depraved of the inhabitants in the ancient Crone Worlds were spared or recreated by Slaanesh to serve her dark purpose after the Fall. In addition to her enhanced physique, Yarythe is utterly steeped in sensational excess, to the point where the most grievious wound feels like a clumsy caress. She has the Feel No Pain universal special rule. [Needed, she can't hide in squads, thus small arms will easily kill her otherwise]
    Damnation: No servant of Chaos is as utterly dependant on the mercy of their Chaos masters as the Eldar Chaos Champions. Yarythe cannot use her invulnerable save against wounds caused by Perils of the Warp.

    Yarythe is a psyker and can cast two psychic powers per turn. She knows Slaaneshi psychic powers and the Warptime and Phantasmagoria psychic power.

    Phantasmagoria: Cast in the beginning of user's Shooting phase. With a complex sign, Yarythe summons illusionary creatures who flit and broil across the battlefield, their promises of fulfillment distracting and bewildering the hapless foe. All enemy units roll an extra d6 while taking Leadership tests of any kind, disregarding the lowest result rolled. Lasts until the start of caster's next shooting phase. [A Slaaneshi spell from WHFB pretty much directly ripped off].

    Soul Eater: Master-Crafted Power Weapon. Models that suffer an unsaved wound from the Soul Eater must take a Leadership test, if the test is failed it inflicts Instant Death.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)19:30 No.14220477
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    Interesting. I was about to say we might as well make her a Daemon Prince (so she could ignore armor), but I see she already has a very nice power weapon. If the rest of /tg/ likes it, she's in.

    On an unrelated note, I have good news, and bad news.

    The bad news is that there is already a LatD PDF that is legal in "Tempestus Fugitive" events (I don't know what those are). It seems very different from the one we are working on, and though it has some interesting ideas that I'll likely borrow (ie, steal), I don't quite like the overall book. It just doesn't seem like its own entity, too much referencing other books for units for my taste. It's also 3 years old. It does have Stalk Tank rules, though.


    As for the good news, I have archived this thread. Not much of a story, eh?

    Also, here are the profiles of Mutants (from the Witch Hunters book) and Beastmen (IA6, Vraks II).

    As you can see, save for a few differences in LD and number of attacks, the two units start out nearly identical. Me might as well just combine the two, and have a "Beastmen" upgrade that increased their WS, or something. I also like the "Mutant Boss" having 2 wounds, but that would probably have to be a one per army deal.

    We could also give them a Fleet upgrade/mutation that makes them a Fast Attack choice.


    Anther good name, captcha? I'll try to fit it in somewhere
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)19:37 No.14220522

    good, but wouldn't she get stranded out in the middle of no where easier? Mephiston has a psychic power that at least gives him a jump pack (I think)
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)19:41 No.14220552

    True, maybe give her 12'' charge range like Fiends of Slaanesh have or give her wings (Jump Infantry).
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)20:05 No.14220744
    So here's what we've got so far.

    HQ: Daemon Prince, Exalted Champion of Chaos (allows 1 CSM squad to be taken as a troops choice, can be a psyker), Traitor General (still needs a better name, guys; can be a psyker, has a bodyguard unit)

    Advisors: Aspiring CSM Champion (0-5), Witch (0-5), Demagogue (0-5)

    Elites: Chaos Marines (do they stay or do they go? Can be Alpha Legion or Word Bearers), Big Mutants (like anyone is going to use them), Mercenary Marauders (many different upgrades/contracts/model types), Summoned Daemons

    Troops: Cult Militia Platoon, Traitor Guard (have the best equipment, single squad of 5-15 per slot), Mutants (beastmen-like base stats), Zombies

    Fast Attack: Chimera, Sentinels, Barbarian Cavalry (including Chaos Hounds), Chaos Spawn

    Heavy: Russ, Siege Tanks, Heavy Weapons platoon.

    I think we need to make a new transport vehicle as well. I'm thinking something bases on this pic. It would have shit armor and be open topped, but could hold 20 models and would represent the renegades using civilian vehicles when they run out of real military ones.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)20:18 No.14220822

    Wait, I've been operating under the misconception that the Traitor General was an Independent Character. He'd work way better as an IG style unit, with guys like Cardinals , bound daemonhosts, etc as IG style squad upgrade units.

    I feel dumb now; this is probably what everyone else thought he was to begin with.

    Speaking of Apostate Cardinals, I think they should be a 1 per army dealy that counts as a Holy Relic. What other chaotic advisors could we give him?
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)20:42 No.14221014
    Working on a rough draft of the Cult Militia platoon entry right now. I don't think we ever decided on what LD we should give them.

    At first I had wanted to to give the militia squads a LD of D6+4, but all in all I think that would be too much to keep track of and far too much rolling. I think the Cultists should have a higher LD than the Militia, but I'm not sure where to start with.

    I'm thinking LD6 for the militia, and 7 for the Cultists and Agitators, and 8 for the Cult Leader/Militia Officer.

    What do you say?
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)20:55 No.14221114
    I'm thinking low Ld for the Guardsmen (around 7), but using the Ld of the CSM assigned to lead them. That would be based off the idea I posted earlier about squads of CSMs being elite and individal CSMs leading traitor squads.

    If Cultists replace IG Militia, then I'm thinking lower leadership (6?) but make them Fearless due to blind faith in chaos. Large squads will soak up the deaths due to losing in close combat.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)21:03 No.14221176
    What about adding a special bodyguard upgrade for the Traitor General ala Desolane, the life-ward, from the Gaunt's Ghosts book of the same name? I'm thinking it shouldn't be placed on the tabletop unless the TG gets into close-combat in which case it would take the TG's place (and move him out of cc range) strike like a skaven/darkelf assassin. Otherwise it would confer a 3 or 4+ invulnerable save from shooting/ranged attacks while it lives. Good description here, page 23: http://www.scribd.com/doc/27075303/Dan-Abnett-Gaunt-s-Ghosts-08-Traitor-General
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 03/12/11(Sat)21:04 No.14221196

    Are Sentinals, leman russ tanks and hellhounds still 1 per traitor squad?

    Civilian vehicles are easy.
    Technical -40 Points (Cult/milita only)
    BS3 10-10-10
    open topped, no weapons, D6 firing ports or all can fire but at bs2 or something along those lines. keep it simple so conversion remains simple seeing as any player would take a few.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)21:23 No.14221350
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    Chaos Footsoldier Platoon, still needs work.

    That's the same LD as normal Guardsmen, remember, these guys are the bottom of Chaos's barrel, they're not that good!

    Also remember that there are also regular traitor guard in squads of 5-15. They have the Flak Armour, and heavy/special weapons from when they were IG; and can take a chimera. They'll likely be 6pts a model, and will be able to take krak grenades to compliment their frag grenades. They can also take Icons.

    Essentially, my idea of Traitor Guardsmen is that they are the "Blood Pact" kind of infantry, but are more expensive. Militia and Cultists are just warm bodies, though they can certainly kill something if they try hard enough.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)21:25 No.14221379

    Sentinels no, they are 1-3 per squad. I'm on the fence about Russes though. It's been part of how they operate (on the table) to only let them have 1 single tank since at least 3e, but I just don't think that's gonna cut it anymore.

    I was planning on limiting them to normal Russes, Demolishers, Vanquishers, and Annihilators, instead.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)21:25 No.14221381
    Yeah, I can't find my IG codex. I'm seriously this right now. --> :(
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)21:28 No.14221400
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    That sucks, I hope you find it dude.


    Goddamnit, Captcha, stop eating my pictures!
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)21:29 No.14221414
    Seconding this idea

    I feel like unbound deamonhosts should be heavy support instead of an HQ upgrade due to their flavor and raw power:

    1-5 Unbound Daemonhosts
    WS5 BS5 S6 T6 W3 I6 A4 Ld10 3+ Invuln save
    Demonic, 12" move, Psykers, Immune to Perils of the Warp, Maybe a -1WS debuff vs everyone in cc who's not fearless or a S2 aoe attack every round ala the warhammer rule for monstrous creatures.

    I don't have the bound daemonhost stats/costs in front of me but obviously they should be similar but improved.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)21:35 No.14221482

    Those are... Greater Daemon stats. Tone it down to S/T 5 and a 4+ invulnerable save, at best. Instead of giving them psychic powers AND immunity to PotW, just give them a gun or two like in the Daemons book.

    If you feel they aren't survivable enough, either give then a FNP option or the ability to regenerate wounds.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 03/12/11(Sat)21:44 No.14221538

    Ive writen a functioning (but not playtested) Blood Pact Codex if you want to add that as a secondary list to represent them, all it needs is fluff pages.

    The blood and bones of it is an IG list without specialist troops and khornes extras with 3-4 unique units. Spartans, Gore Mages and Blood Wolves.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)21:51 No.14221608

    What I meant was that Traitor Guard squads are going to be comparable to large IG squads (well trained, effective, not stupidly fanatical), not that they are literally going to be Blood Pact (although one's with an Icon of Khorne might work to represent them).

    That being said, I would LOVE to see your Bloodpact Codex. It sounds awesome
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)22:14 No.14221853
    We still need the following: a chart of 6 Witch psychic powers, normal (good) psychic powers including god specific ones, definitive rules for the CSMs, unbound daemonhosts (if we include them, likely to be a HS choice), some more named characters (Traitor IG general, religious one, possibly a mutant one) and rules for existing ones, rules for summoned Daemons

    There are a few others, but these are the main ones (concept wise) we need to be worrying about.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 03/12/11(Sat)22:15 No.14221872
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    This is the V1. Fluffwise they seek the strongest adversaries (represented with the gauntlet rule) to increase with their power and khornes favor. Weaklings are of no consiquence. Im trying to channel the Honour and glory side of khorne, which nowdays only exists in fantasy. If you have any inputs id be happy to hear it
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)22:16 No.14221884
    4+ invuln sounds good; also: 2 wounds each. I still feel S6/T6 is appropriate; lasguns and small arms should be laughable to an unbound. S5 may be appropriate if the shooting attack is strong enough to warrant them being a HS choice (ie being able to take out vehicles).

    If they have a ranged attack it should be a standardized "psychic" attack in the shooting phase rather than holding a gun b/c they wouldn't be using any equipment or armor.

    I was throwing around the idea to have buffed stats but having a single unbound be the choice instead of a unit of weaker ones.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)22:32 No.14222031

    Well, what I meant by "gun" was that they could have a shooting attack that works like a psychic power (ie, no weapon is modeled). The Chaos Daemons book has a bunch of "Gifts" that for all intents and purposes are psychic tests that you don't have to test for. There isn't a single model with a psychic power in the whole book.

    A HS unbound daemonhost should probably have two shooting attacks: one for anti-tank, one for anti-infantry.

    I still recommend S/T5.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/12/11(Sat)22:36 No.14222060

    Awesome. What program did you use for that? Excel?
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)22:58 No.14222292
    >> Blue Gobbo 03/12/11(Sat)23:04 No.14222350

    Sounds good to me. This is all coming together very nicely. I like forward to seeing the finished product.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 03/12/11(Sat)23:25 No.14222566

    Certianly is
    >> Anonymous 03/12/11(Sat)23:42 No.14222716
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    >> Renegade Bob 03/13/11(Sun)00:09 No.14223062
    That's probably going to be it from me tonight, everybody. Before next time I'll work on the CSMs; two versions, one with separate entries for normal ones, Alpha Legion, and Word Bearers, and one where they're all together and the legions are upgrades.

    We'll decide what we like better, then.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 03/13/11(Sun)00:29 No.14223334

    look forward to it
    >> Renegade Bob 03/13/11(Sun)01:21 No.14223921
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    Remember when I said I was done for tonight?

    ...I lied.

    This is the combined profile version. The separate version would be identical, except the legions would have the special rules listed at the bottom of this entry in their basic profile.

    Note that there is no cost for the Legion upgrades at the moment. I have no idea how much they should cost, or if the rules I've given them are appropriate.
    >> Anonymous 03/13/11(Sun)01:42 No.14224166

    Damn. You can get 15 more marines for 15 points? Score!
    >> Renegade Bob 03/13/11(Sun)01:45 No.14224211

    And that's why we have the editing process. Thank you for catching that.

    It's supposed to be 16pts for 15 more marines.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/13/11(Sun)03:21 No.14224577

    That was a joke, by the way.
    >> Anonymous 03/13/11(Sun)12:50 No.14227861
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    >> Anonymous 03/13/11(Sun)12:51 No.14227869
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    >> Anonymous 03/13/11(Sun)12:51 No.14227870
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    >> Renegade Bob 03/13/11(Sun)16:56 No.14229936
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    Updated Chaos Footsoldier Platoon entry. This one seems more streamlined and easy to follow.

    I'm not sure about the Freighter rules, though. The prices seems iffy to me and I can't decide whether or not to let the Cultists have them. Once they are finalized they'll be transports for Footsoldier Platoons (as a vehicle unit), Traitor Guard, and Mutants.

    I would love to hear your input.
    >> Anonymous 03/13/11(Sun)20:47 No.14232276
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    pic unrelated
    >> Renegade Bob 03/13/11(Sun)21:29 No.14232759

    Whoops. The option for Cultists to take icons was supposed to mention that if any squads take one, they all do (it also has to be the same mark.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/13/11(Sun)22:30 No.14233358
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    Fixed that little error.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/13/11(Sun)22:34 No.14233401
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    I also got a rough draft of the Traitor Guard entry done.
    >> Blue Gobbo 03/13/11(Sun)23:25 No.14233830
    I don't know if the left column is intentional but on the right side there are two different costs for the icons if you take a 10-man squad.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/13/11(Sun)23:42 No.14233952
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    Actually, one set of costs (the lower one) is for squad of 5-10 while the other (more expensive) is for squads of 11-15. My reasoning is that a large squad is much more dangerous with a Icon upgrades than a small one. I've seen in other LatD dexes outrageous pricing (80+ pts, if memory serves) to make up for the potential of very large squads to kick ass. However, this almost forces you to take very large, unwieldy units if you want any mark at all.

    To counter this, I gave the Traitor Guard list two Icon options (they can only take one), one for small squads and one for large ones. No one would pay 45pts to give, say, 5 guardsmen +1T; but it doesn't seem like too bad a deal for 15 dudes.

    In the Cultist Platoon I each squad to pay a fairly cheap price for icons, reasoning that since ALL of the squads have to take one, the build up of cost covers the largest mobs you can take without punishing you for giving Icons to smaller ones.

    Overall I like both concepts, but there is always room for error and just about anything can be changed if it doesn't work.

    pic mostly unrelated (you have no idea how hard it was to not add the 40k version into the book, if only for the lulz)
    >> Blue Gobbo 03/13/11(Sun)23:55 No.14234060
    I gotcha but you may want to change the wording to "If there are greater than 10 models..."

    Otherwise looks good!
    >> Renegade Bob 03/14/11(Mon)00:29 No.14234402
    Here's what I've got for mutants so far. It's not going as easily as I had hoped so I'd appreciate any thoughts you may have.

    I plan on having the unit size be about 15-40 per squad, with sergeants getting 2 wounds but costing a fairly large amount of points. I think this is a nuetral enough number to field anything from a horde of weak mutants to a stong cadre of tough ones.

    As for the mutations themselves, I was thinking that the starting profile should be roughly human with 5-6 basic upgrade options (+1T/S/WS, 4+ armour save). You'd be forced to take at least one and as many as... 4ish? I dunno, but there would also be some much better upgrades that you can only choose one of (become beast, jump infantry, fleet, or get rending cc attacks); the better ones might possibly change which slot the unit uses (beast/jump infantry as FA, rending as elites, that kind of thing).

    The main problems are points costs and weaponry. I think they shoud start with a single ccw and have the option to take lasguns/pistols and "improvised grenades" with a special weapon or two, that kind of thing.

    So, what mutations/weapons should they have the option of taking, and how much should they cost?
    >> Renegade Bob 03/14/11(Mon)00:38 No.14234467

    On second though, "sergeants" will probably just have one or two mutions that only they can take, but limit them to one of them. These would be really good, like +1, 3+ armour save, and invulnerable save, feel no pain, +2S, maybe even a warlock styled psychic power.

    I want mutants to be the most customizable unit in the book; with the possible exception of Marauders and Traitor Generals.

    And speaking of generals, I think there should be 4 or so broad catagories (although there would of course be some mixing and matching): Actual IG traitors (who would give tactical advantages), Mutant leaders (possibly enough to end up with beastlords if you tool them right), Religous (cardinals and so forth, greatly improve morale and inspire greater fury), and daemonic (those on their way to daemonhood).
    >> Blue Gobbo 03/14/11(Mon)01:09 No.14234769
    I'm thinking mutants shouldn't have very sophisticated weapons; cultist level at best. Laspistols sound good as standard equipment but I see them using their bare mutated hands/claws/whatever instead of holding weapons. Here are some sample basic upgrades:
    Extra arms; +1 Attack = +1 pt
    Mutant strength; +1 S = +2 pt
    Gifted senses; +1 I = +1 pt
    Scaly Hide; +1 to save = +1 pt
    Bestial speed; +Fleet of Foot = +2 pt

    As for weapons I'm thinking up to 2 flamers or melta guns while the sergeant has access to melta/plas/bolt pistol. I don't know whether your mutants are BS2 or 3 to figure points costs but considering the max size of the units each of these should be a little higher than the same compared to a guard squad b/c they'll have a lot more meat shields before the fancy weapons are removed as casualties. Alternatively you could take the Ork boy route and use "for every 10 models in the unit you may take an x, y or z at the points cost below"
    >> Blue Gobbo 03/14/11(Mon)01:13 No.14234805
    Scaly hide should be +2 or +3 points depending on the base statline. Sorry, tired.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/14/11(Mon)01:36 No.14235021

    You're right, they should have shitty weapons. Las pistols should cost a pretty penny as well (since it adds +1 attack if they start with 1 CCW). They'll probably be getting BS2. Their LD value is another problem, half my sources say they run away from kittens while the other half says they are comparable to guardsmen.

    Their baseline stats will be WS3 BS2 S/T3 W1 A1 Sv5+. Like I said, i'm on the fence about LD, and I can't decide between initiative of 2 or 3. I'm thinking that would cost about 4 or 5pts, considering that they HAVE to buy at least one mutation, which would raise the price from the word go.

    Should we give them marks? They'd have to be pretty balls expensive considering how large of a unit it can be; and having a different cost for different unit sizes won't work in this case (there'd have to be 3 or 4). Maybe a "1 in 10" kind of thing, but with the restriction that you HAVE to take one for every 10 guys you have, like Cultists.

    As for the "special one per unit" mutations, I'm liking the idea less and less. Unless they are only available to 15 model strong units, things would get... unwieldy rather quickly.
    >> Blue Gobbo 03/14/11(Mon)02:17 No.14235350
    If you decide to include the rule about a regular CSM leading the unit as an upgrade to the sergeant then their low Ld won't be bad in-game. This upgrade should be bit more expensive than the same upgrade in another unit b/c of the Ld boost. Alternatively, CSM may think themselves above leading mutants and as such a demagogue or ruinous priest could boost the Ld without the combat awesomeness of a CSM.

    I'd skip the marks for this particular unit; these guys represent the general mutating effect of chaos rather than intelligent devotion or earned gifts ala chaos marines.

    I hope more people start chiming in, I'd like to read more opinions on these units.
    >> Anonymous 03/14/11(Mon)02:35 No.14235511

    >squads of god-specific fanatic cultists

    >Blood Pact for Khorne
    >zombies for Nurgle
    >soul-bound psykers for Tzeentch

    May I suggest the Slaanesh-themed squad to be a squad of sadistic coked out sex addicts?
    >> Anonymous 03/14/11(Mon)02:38 No.14235532

    One of the more dreadful Space Marine novels I've read at lunch break describes Slaaneshi soldiers having had their brains rewired (through magic, I guess) to send pain impulses into their "pleasure centers" instead.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/14/11(Mon)02:47 No.14235594

    He was referring to the CSM cult units (Berserkers, Plague Marines); and no, they aren't going to be included.

    However, Blood Pact can be represented by Traitor Guard with an Icon of Khorne. We ARE including Zombies, so Nurgle should be happy. Tzeentch gets mutants AND witches (an advisor unit). Slaanesh is fucked. But it's into that, a couple of units can take an Icon of... it. The Slaaneshi character is also pretty badass, so far.

    Some of the other fun treats so far include: Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, unbound daemonhosts, and a fun unit of barbarian cavalry that can take Hound of Chaos (including MUCH bigger ones).

    Also, any other ideas you (or anyone else) may have are quite welcome.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/14/11(Mon)02:59 No.14235677
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    No, wait, yeah, he was talking about normal human counterparts to the CSM cults. My bad.

    In other news, I finished the (very) tentative rought draft of the Mutants entry!

    If possible, I'd like to add more basic and uncommon mutations. If anyone has any idea for a good uncommon mutation that would make them a Heavy Support choice, I'm all ears- or, eyes. I was thinking about giving them an upgrade to BS3 or 4 and then giving them some good guns, or something.

    Oh, and none of the points costs are anywhere near final; I just needed to put something where they would go. And the mutants' initiative is intentionally left blank. I don't can't decide between I2 or I3 for them (I3 would raise the +1I mutation to 2pts/model; or something like that).
    >> Anonymous 03/14/11(Mon)03:05 No.14235711
    A good slaneshi Special Character would be the one fallen Sister, Miriael Sabathiel. She would make a good combat monster HQ, or possibly a morale boosting one, having cultists being willing to die for her without a moments thought.
    >> Renegade Bob 03/14/11(Mon)03:14 No.14235765

    Tempting, but we've already decided (mostly) that the Slaaneshi character, Lady Yarythe, will be an Eldar fallen to chaos. She's daemon(ish), but we haven't decided upon her rules yet.

    I wanted her to be an Independent character that hides in units, forces enemies to pass a LD test (at -1 LD) to attack her in CC, and brainwashes her own dudes into protecting her with their lives (not sure how to do rules for that).
    Much like your idea, actually.

    However, most of the people in the thread seem to want her to be a daemon-prince with Lash type psychic powers and enough defensive buffing to make her survivable alone.

    We'll see what happens.

    Oh, and I don't think I ever posted the supt/tg/ link. Here it is:

    btw, Yarythe was named by captcha; which also just gave me ANOTHER interesting name, "Zhizn." Maybe the name for the Tzeentchian character?
    >> Blue Gobbo 03/14/11(Mon)03:33 No.14235846
    High-Magister Zhizn, the Unfathomable
    Lord Zhizn, the Inconsistent
    Zhizn the Featureless
    Zhizn the Prophet
    >> Renegade Bob 03/14/11(Mon)03:41 No.14235893
    Any of those would work!

    Speaking of the Tzeentch character, someone earlier in the thread mentioned how they like the random effects tables from the CSM book. I personally disagree, but since just about every Chaos related thing has something random in it; we should honor the source material and include some of our own.

    I've aluded earlier to my intention of having the Tzeentch character be a mutant with a Bile-esque rule. Well, how about this? Mutants can take any number of basic mutations, but suffer some sort of randomly determined penalty for doing so. Or, he give other squads in the army mutations, but they become subject to an "Animosity" like chart to represent the insanity the may gain from being mutated in such a way (a chart w/ a bad enough negative result could also justify the mutation upgrades being free! or at least very cheap).

    What do you say?
    >> Renegade Bob 03/14/11(Mon)04:03 No.14236074
    You know what, I've got class tomorrow. I'm done for tonight.

    >> FRD 03/14/11(Mon)05:34 No.14236698
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    Just putting this out there, undead chaos ig loves this thread

    Svog 227th Infantry Platoon II

    ersuart regular.
    >> Blue Gobbo 03/14/11(Mon)12:26 No.14238586
    I thought of two possible rules for this guy last night:
    1) Changer of Fate - You get D3 rerolls per turn, rolled at the start of the turn. You may never reroll a reroll and for Ld tests you reroll both dice instead of just 1. You may force your opponent to reroll a single die roll or test. Zhizn may not reroll his Changer of Fate roll or save rerolls to his next turn.
    2) Deja Vu - If your opponent gets a reroll for any reason (including Changer of Fate above) and rolls the same result (ie a 5 to hit, rerolled a 5 to hit) then the model if question takes a S4 hit with no armor save (Invulnerables may still be taken). If this wounds the model then Zhizn regains one wound immediately. Vehicles will never take damage from Deja Vu. In the event of Ld tests, the model whose Ld is being used (or squad leader otherwise) will suffer the hit.

    As for the mutation idea, perhaps you could borrow from the Warhammer Chaos Altar that provides a single random mutation to a single unit within range every turn?
    >> Anonymous 03/14/11(Mon)13:52 No.14239200
    The Mutants at least need the option to take an Icon of Chaos Glory. Also, why don't they have Infiltrate?

    Why don't most of these units have infiltrate? That's supposed to be a very large part of the army; that they are all around and attack en masse as a surprise.
    >> Blue Gobbo 03/14/11(Mon)18:14 No.14241843
    I feel like Infiltrate makes sense for Mutants but I'd put a limit on the size of the unit. Maybe 15< so that they wouldn't be able to take an uncommon mutation as well.

    Alternatively, "Chameleon Aura" could be added to the uncommon mutations to allow Infiltrate. This would probably upgrade the unit to Elites though.

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