While you can't complain about the income, you do have vaguely unsettling worries about her work; damning souls is all well and good, but you do not think you have /ever/ heard the infernal bureaucracy referred to as 'efficient'. You aren't sure if you wish to allow something similar to be constructed in your realm. Your worries, once voiced, are met with assurances that it could not possibly resemble the infernal hierarchy itself. Even if that's what she was trying to recreate, she explains, mortals simply could not comprehend (or, most of the time, follow) such an elaborate system. You reserve judgment for the moment.

Working with your captive dao and the dwarves, you manage to establish the desired object, a massive series of distillation chambers for magma. It is, if anything, more dangerous than re-igniting the volcano. In particular instance, things go straight to hell as a tunnel warps and collapses in the heat while you're working it- Farrandras is unhurt, returning to the stone, and you are not terribly bothered by the heat, but apparently some of the dwarves were most impressed by you calmly walking out of the literally blistering heat and suffocating fumes and suggesting that you try again. The story rapidly circulates and grows in Mza, though the subject of the actual work you were doing with the dwarves happily vague. Eventually, though, you manage to get the edifice constructed to their specifications, and leave them to learning how to use it.

Asha's children manage to pull off the mission you sent them on, and Kadri demonstrates a gratifying amount of initiative in making sure the objective is accomplished, even if original means prove insufficient. Sarosh, however, died in the process- According to Kadri, because Sarosh refused to obey instructions. Despite the cost, though, Seffestranias' expansion slowly grinds to a halt, and you consider that threat curtailed for the moment as well.

Well, if Scinnari is becoming so paranoid over our daughter I think we had best ask her what exactly has her in such a state.

What about the display of bodies or trip to see the Twice-Bound?

>>14067059
Meh, we don't need assassins who can't follow orders anyway. We still have a fairly large breeding pool, I imagine they are old enough to start second phase breeding right? Let's get them on that. Make sure to draw up a large family tree and catalog the prevalence of both physical and mystical ability.

Finding out more about the Twice Bound is a priority.

I suggest that we build up our resources and army, so we can conquer Freeport on the day our ban is lifted. Deliciously evil, and all that

>>14067305
We could probably conquer it right now, and building up our army and navy is something we do automatically. Not a priority anyway, we have much more pressing issues.

>>14067167
Invent Punnett Squares, too, while we're at it. Let's determine how magic works! With SCIENCE.

>>14067108
Scinnari's probably just being nervous. As for the Twice-Bound, he's chillin' underneath Rhasver's volcano, I think. We're totally immune to molten rock, I think, so we could just swing by at some point.

>>14067334
Probably, but better we ask and it just be nerves than don't ask and it be something serious... like her infernal masters wanting the child or some such.

>>14067108
Ah. Right. Knew I was forgetting something.
####################################

A slow trickle of intruders begins, caught on or around your mountain- Only a very few actually are caught in the mountain, but your lizardmen followers are most enthusiastic about terminating the live ones. Bodies are repaired, where possible, then put on display for a few days in Mza- long enough to drive a point home, you think, but not long enough to rot or otherwise decay.

Sadly, only most of them seem to be random adventurous profit-minded individuals- others are found with traceable items upon them, often insultingly so. As you don't believe Tashzmir spies wear emblems of their rank and loyalty, and that adventurers spying for Aquitaine or the United Cities are not only unlikely to be given (badly forged) contracts, they're certainly not going to be carrying the documents on them while spying, you can't seriously pursue any of their employers, and instead are forced to take solace in the fact that none of them have gotten very far, and almost all of the died with extreme violence.

Research into the Twice-Bound is, of course, a priority. What you find is only arguably helpful.

A colossal red dragon, a titanic creature who might as well have been a scion of the gods themselves. You're skeptical on that part, and suspect the tendency of historians and bards to exaggerate their subject material. Still; the Twice-Bound seems to have been the one responsible for poking holes in the purported 'supreme control' of the bindings- Something for which the Binder was, you suppose, understandably quite upset about. She is reputed to have imprisoned him 'in pain and darkness', beneath what you believe to be the Smoking Mountain of Rhasver. Further information is difficult to find, as most other details seem to differ from source to source, again, something you blame bards and damnable historians for.

>>14067563
I'm pretty sure we already knew all of this about the twice-bound. We've been planning to personally go there and delve into the mountain to meet the guy since no other information was forthcoming.

>>14067563
Remind me what our relations with Rhasver are? Cool? It may be time to work on improving that, or at least finding out what they think of our expansions. A state visit, similar to our visit to Seffy's domain, would give us an excuse to be there and we could (unofficially) visit the Mountain to find the Twice-Bound while we're there.

How are they ruled? Could we perhaps secure allies among the noble class, or whoever it is who has power?

Alternatively, Cibach may have to drop in there.

It's been a while, but I seem to recall that the Binder couldn't kill us, but could revert us to how we were before she changed us back before we arrived in Freeport. Protecting ourselves against that would seem to be advisable before doing something as potenially provacative as visiting the Twice-Bound.

What's the address of the IRC channel?

>>14067770
It's epic magic broski, we aren't getting protected from it without some of our own. Plus, it was the crystal that told us about that. I'm not entirely sure it was telling the truth... after all, what is the point of doing something like that to something so notoriously independent as a dragon? Better than even chance that any color would say FUCK DA POLICE and it would be no threat at all. Thousands upon thousands of dragons have died fighting rather than submit, after all.

Basically, it seems like a completely retarded thing to use as a threat. If this sorceress was so powerful and knew so much about dragons she would know it wouldn't work. It could have been she was just trying to scare us away from messing with the dracolich at the time using the only thing she had... words.

>>14067811
#dragonquest@irchighway.net

>>14067770
I thought finding a way to protect ourselves was why we were visiting the twice bound?

I can't recall any other promising leads.

>>14067770
Man, it's an entire mountain. Just teleport over, use invisibility, and dick around to our heart's content. I don't think we should ask permission.

Besides, what does it take to find this bloke? Are we going to need to go magma-diving, which will raise questions, or just find a little mausoleum leading into the base of the mountain, or what?

>>14067851
How would magma diving raise questions? I mean, who the hell posts guards over the entire surface of a volcano? Especially guards with truesight?

We just need to teleport to the rim and jump in if we want to get inside it. I mean what are they going to do... follow us? Heh.

>>14067877
If Lord Prestor decided he wanted to go dick around in an active volcano, (besides his own,) that might bring certain questions to mind. And if we aren't going to let them know we're doing it, we mgiht as well not let them know we're there at all.

Oh, right, and they probably aren't fond of us for smashing their fleet, a while back.

Remember to chat with Scinnari. I want to know what has her worried and address it if possible. She might see issues that we don't, and even if it's just a case of the nerves I don't especially want a paranoid devil sitting around in our lair dreaming up... who knows what plans.

Plus, she deserves some peace of mind if we can provide it. She belongs to us, but as her owner we have a responsibility to ensure that she's provided for appropriately, which includes allaying worries.

>>14067851
How big is this mountain, anyways? Do we want to have someone else go poking around before we spend a week combing its surface? Send one of Asha's, someone who can detect magic, maybe?

Also they have their adamantium forges there, don't they? So at least some areas will be guarded.

>>14067851
All you need is a 6th level spell to get fire immunity for 24 hours. 7th if you're a sorcerer.

Our public persona is a sorceror king.

>>14067929
Why would we do it as Lord Prestor? Do it as some random-ass form. Or Cibach, if we want. No need to get Prestor involved.

>>14067937
That spell gives you fire immunity, but not the ability to hold your breath for hours like we have. And water breathing does not work on lava.

Also, they wouldn't post guards around the rim of an active volcano. I mean damn, that's just ridiculous. Around the adamant workshops and extraction sure. But the outside is doubtful.

>>14067947
Good idea, but we should excersize caution. Remember how many bodies we've had on display in town so far.

They didn't think hard about exploring a volcano either.

>>14067999
True, but let's be clear here: Those were low to mid level fluffers. We're a red dragon.

>>14067976
Deep Breath(DR314 p46) [Drd1 Sor/Wiz1] Caster’s lungs constantly refill with air.

>>14068032
Too bad that's a dragon mag spell rather than a real standard rules one.

>>14068088
whatever straws you need to grasp, man.

Ioun Stone – Iridescent
Spindle (DMG p260)
Gem that floats around the owner’s head
Sustains owner without air

>>14067563
We need an item that has the spell "Speak with Dead" on it, so we can ask the corpses questions.

Secondly: abuse of "Raise Dead". The soul must be free and willing to return, bit what information does it have about who's raising it? At least some of the souls are going to be looking at a stay in hell, and if they don't know for sure that a return is to our tender mercies they may be all too eager to risk a return. The poor fools.

bump

bump because writer dude is slow as fuck

Bump because Writer-Dude keeps me feeling awesome

Stop with the bumps, you are not adding anything and surely not hurrying him up. All it does is eat postcount.

Asha seems quite disconsolate over Sarosh's death. Predictable, if annoying. Kadri and Taza, though, seem to deserve some sort of reward for their success. You decide that the investigation for Rhasver may be suitable. An easy investigation, with... Oh, you might even be able to part with some generous funding. You'll see...

“Do not be detected; certainly do not be caught. I want you do see what you can find about this “Twice-Bound”, and to investigate the entirety of the volcano, if you can. Obviously I desire survival over thoroughness- make sure you live to report. Understand?”

“Of course, master.” Kadri answers. Taza nods in agreement.

“Very well. Do succeed. I wish to know where to find this 'Twice-Bound', and do not have very much time to waste.” you offer a final admonishment, before sending them on their way, teleporting the two of them far from Mza. They vanish, and you amble over to your crystal ball, to make sure of their safe arrival. A passing thought likens you, in your mind, to a concerned father, and smile ironically at the ill-fitting analogy. But... on that subject...

Having verified their arrival, you teleport down to your lair and revert, intent on pursuing a certain subject with Scinnari. She is, as you had hoped, present. The sweltering heat of your lair, combined with the hot springs that pool near the entrance serve to make it a literal sauna. You'd worry about rust, but the vast majority of your hoard is gold, and of course, no dragon would be without suitable protections for their precious belongings. Which is why your daughter's egg rests near the center of the dais on several luxurious cushions taken from Azdukashen's lair so long ago... Now serving a much better purpose than supporting his worthless bulk. Scinnari rest next to your daughter, stroking the egg absently from time to time.

“Ah. My dear lady, I'd hoped to find you here.” you greet happily. She nods absently. “I trust nothing his changed?”

“I would have called you had it happened.” Scinnari replies.

“Indeed.” you agree. Leaning close, you bring your head down to your daughter's egg, and brush her mind lightly. She stirs, greeting you. Bright, not really intelligent, but getting there... You respond to her greeting in kind, passing along the vision of where she is. It's probably familiar to her now, but she buzzes happily to the image of her 'self' and her mother sitting next to her. You can't resist a a faint smile.

“Which leads me to the next question of paramount import...”

“Yes?” Scinnari says, glancing up. You pause, seeking to phrase it correctly.

“You seem bothered,” you begin, laying down beside them, “upset. And have seemed that way for quite a while. I do not like to push, but... I wish to know what the problem is. Perhaps I can help; you certainly deserve peace of mind. And if it is something about our daughter... Like, for instance, if your superiors had taken an interest in her, I would like to know that too.”

“If that were the case, wouldn't I have /told/ you?” Scinanri snaps back, eyes flaring in the darkness. You pause, as if for consideration, and reply moderately.

“I think you would. If you were able to.” you say reasonably, “And I'm aware that it might not be your choice. Devils place such stock in hierarchies... I must admit, it's one of the reasons I first found you appealing. One of the many. Please, I wish to understand and help if I am able.” She seems to calm down, perhaps shamed over her reaction.

“I am worried about her... And, I admit, worried about that.” Scinnari replies, efforts to control herself evident.

“So you do not know?”

“I do not /know/ that my superiors have /no/ interest in my daughter. That is more than enough to be worried about.”

>>14069197
Hmmm. Tell her that we worry as well, and that she can at least have peace of mind enough to know that the protections around both her and her daughter here are some of the best the mortal plane has to offer... and that she should know as well as anyone how limited the influence of the outer planes are in the prime. To have their way here would likely require expending, risking, and perhaps losing far more resources than they would gain from one child. Such a simple and logical explanation should help calm her.

Ask her what things she fears from them. If she doesn't want to say, gently encourage her. Assure her that we can help keep both her and our daughter safer should we know likely ways they would attempt to strike... be they with physical, mystical or even political or subversive forces.

Basically, sit down with her and spend some time with her talking over possible plots, making plans. The combination of physical cuddling, mental reassurance, and displayed interest in both her and our daughter should do much to ease her nerves. Let's be honest, we've seen what happens when she gets overly paranoid, she makes all kinds of bad calls she wouldn't with a clear head.

>>14069374
Second. Spending time snuggling with our devil is important right now.

If she has telepathy perhaps she can use it to mentally link with us, and then we have a sort of party-line with our daughter? That should help ease her mind too if she gets to actually speak with her daughter since she seemed jealous of that.

>>14069374
Thirded. She can't work efficiently for us if she's distracted.

>>14069181
Let's construct a door between the hot springs and the rest of our lair, yes? Reds like it dry. We aren't some... /bronze/ here!

Plus, eventually the water will cause all kinds of problems with both our hoard and lair. Moisture is bad for all the rich rare tapestries, ancient scrolls, and who knows what else is in our hoard room/lair/sleeping chamber.

>>14069197
>>14069635

Get a sand bath installed over the warmest part of the floor... Why do we not have this already?

“Indeed. I quite agree.” you offer. “That is one of the reasons I desire your help on this matter. You have uncountable experience; I can only defend against what I can expect.” you reason to her, “but, if you assist me in this matter, we could easily construct some of, if not /the/ /best/, defenses on the entire plane.”

“I... I don't know what they would normally do.” Scinnari replies uncertainly, almost nervous, “Perhaps kidnap her, or... attempt to convince her to enter a pact. Anything that would give them leverage over her.”

“A pact? Really? Is there any limit on how young a pact can be made?” you ask, interested.

“Not... really. The only limits are on duress. As long as she can clearly say 'yes', it is considered old enough. However...” she pauses, evidently thinking. “...cases have been made before over whether such a consent can be given if they do not understand the issue at hand. It's rare, obviously, but it has happened.”

“It seems to me like devils often take whatever they can get their hands on provided they can still at least pretend to be within the bounds of the Pact Primeval. “ you observe mildly.

“Such has been occasionally suggested.” Scinnari replies, baring her teeth. “It is generally not an opinion voiced twice.”

“Presumably because devils pride themselves on their rules.” you offer, “And possibly because they consider such suggestions to liken them to demons. My apologies. I miss-spoke. But back to the infinitely more important subject of our daughter...”

>>14070019
Well we do have a magma bath, as appropriate to a red. A sand bath is disturbingly... blue.

The next several hours are spent discussing potential defenses or additions you can make to your lair, and, occasionally, with you serving as an intermediary between Scinnari and your daughter. Your conclusions are many; amulets you can have prepared for your daughter, ones that would allow you to find her and communicate with her across the planes. Other alternatives seem to include protections, perhaps make her untouchable by infernal creatures... obviously, that would have downsides for Scinnari, but it is something to have on hand. Wardings on your daughter herself, perhaps a means of preventing any sort of teleportation seem far riskier, and less reliable.

In the end, it seems like there is little you can do that would have any certain effect, and that everything you can do can be countered by suitable resources, which you can only assume the nine hells have at their disposal. Which segues into another topic, that of pursuit, should she somehow be made off with. Obviously Scinnari can't give you detailed accounts of Glasya's court itself, (your scales no longer feel like they're trying to crawl off your skin when the Arch-duchess's name is mentioned, but you still don't fancy trying your power against Asmodeus' daughter.), she can give you descriptions of Malbolge itself, as only an inhabitant could know. Not at all, you decide, a place for a daughter of yours to grow up.

[1d100 for eventual results of the investigation on Twice Bound]

rolled 77 = 77

>>14070066
Searchin!

rolled 12 = 12

>>14070066

>>14070066
>and that everything you can do can be countered by suitable resources

The security game is not about making something completely invincible. That's impossible. It's about making it so that the resources they need to use would outweigh the gain.

rolled 6, 58 = 64

>>14070066
We need to do our own research about if we can protect out daughter via consecration or baptism of some kind. The idea may have merit, and Scinnari may not have thought of them out of instinctual revulsion. This should be done quietly, and probably outside our kingdom in a guise other than our own. Our daughter's safety is worth the loss of face that getting divine aid would cost us, if that's all it would cost.

A roll for my idea if it's used and a roll for the volcano investigation.

>>14070219
That was already mentioned. See the part where it talks about wardings against evil and such, and how it would have drawbacks for Scinnari too?

Honestly, I'm not sure if we should do that. It would keep Scinnari herself from being able to protect the child, not to mention touch/hold her own daughter. Don't think it would be worth that level of tradeoff, they could likely find many ways around it and it would inconvenience us more than them.

>>14070219
>consecration or baptism
For our little evil princess? Nay! Against it. We can find other, better ways to protect her.

Like, you know, good parenting and legions of armed guards, traps, and wardings.

>>14070270
I second your points.
Perhaps one of the first things that we should commission from the dwarves is an adamantium golem to act as our daughter's protector? As time goes by and we gain in magical power, we can upgrade it with more enchantments and whatnot.

Warding our daughter against devils when she herself is a half-devil seems like asking for serious developmental problems. Likewise with any divine influence; that's precisely what we're trying to avoid with all the effort that we go to regarding the Binder. Our daughter is ours, and no one else's; none may touch her.

>>14070323
One, those are fuckhueg and not at all practical. Two, it won't protect her from the subtle threats, just the big overt ones... which we already probably have taken care of. Three, it could still be hijacked magically. Four, jesus christ expensive, and I doubt our dwarves could make it. Which means we would have to go to Rhasaver to do it... to make our personal magically keyed bodyguard for our daughter.

Thinking no. We should probably just keep it so that one of us is with her at all times until she understands signing anything without us present is BAD.

>>14070323
One, those are fuckhueg and not at all practical. Two, it won't protect her from the subtle threats, just the big overt ones... which we already probably have taken care of. Three, it could still be hijacked magically. Four, jesus christ expensive, and I doubt our dwarves could make it. Which means we would have to go to Rhasaver to do it... to make our personal magically keyed bodyguard for our daughter.

Thinking no. We should probably just keep it so that one of us is with her at all times until she understands signing anything without us present is BAD.

>>14070351
Thirded/fourthed? Consecration or whatever is a bad plan. Hell, she's half devil for crying out loud!

Perhaps the amulet is best? So that we can teach her to "check in with daddy and mommy" if strange things show up

>>14070493
I assume we will take all practical measures to keep her safe, including a lifeline amulet that can let her teleport back to our lair safely (but only she can use it of course) or call us, or hell... telepathically contact us from anywhere on any plane. Plus the standard suite of mind blanks, physical protections, who knows what else.

Hell, with all the power we pour into it I would be shocked if it didn't turn out to be an artifact eventually. We can try to do all kinds of neat protective things with it.

so what have our scouts reported back?

test

The next week passes pleasantly. You routinely check in with Kadri and Taza, and find that 'Many-Bound' and 'Twice-Bound' have almost worked their way into common parlance in Rhasver. Subtly; a smith called the 'Many-Bound Hilt', a mage's emporium entitled 'Reagents of the Two Bindings', and so on... Encouraging; it suggests that the Twice-Bound is still around, his presence occasionally making itself known... but nothing solid.

Kadri is investigating mundane sources, visiting mages and libraries, while Taza searches the mountain personally. It is fairly heavily guarded, something that makes it difficult, to the point where Taza is actually caught, a few days after they begin their search. She manages to get herself released, with Kadri's assistance, and the proof of their research. You aren't pleased, but they do report promptly.

Further investigation is hampered by a Rhasverian parole officer escorting her on her investigations around the mountain, though he seems more interested in preventing her from entering the dwarven mines rather than preventing her from searching the base and peak. As it turns out, though, he ends up quite helpful- eventually, her conversations with him lead him to suggest a lead.

yea /TG/ is back up

That lead turns out to be a massive door half-buried near the base of one side of the mountain. The inscription is half buried, but apparently well-known among the locals, if never foremost in mind.

“This is not a place to be, for any but the one imprisoned here. His punishment is eternal, and his gratitude is non-existent. If any but the Binder's chosen do try to enter here, you will fail and also be cursed. If somehow you succeed, then do not complain that you entered unwarned, nor bother me with you deathbed prayers. The Twice-Bound's greed is all-consuming, and he considers nothing exempt, be it your life, your loved ones, your soul, or your possessions. Know that many have tried to serve or bargain with him, and none have ever profited from it. Know that you will be no different.“

Apparently, despite the rather dire warning, people have attempted to open it before. Generally, they have failed, though one wizard in the dim past claimed to have bypassed the door somehow, and spoken with the twice-bound beyond. Stories of the wizard are disparate at best, but most seem to agree that no good came of it. The door itself, though radiates significant, if not robust, magic, and does seem to have resisted most wear and tear, despite by all accounts being older than the entire empire of Rhasver.

Allowing your minions a day to examine, and then ordering them to visibly depart, you teleport them out after they leave the city. You arrive the next day, teleporting directly to the heavy vault door. Taking a look at the design, constriction, and location, you decide it cannot be re-opened without a dedicated excavation team. Instead you teleport yourself through the door- succesfully. Your eyes rapidly adjust to the utter darkness of the corridor, and you react with phenomenal speed, catching yourself as you drop several feet onto the stairs. A painful twisted ankle, but otherwise no damage. Hissing between your teeth in annoyance, you lean against one wall and begin digging through one of your pouches for a healing potion.

Several hours of descent later, and with your ankle still having faint echoes of pain, as if it thinks it shouldn't be feeling fine, you are still following the stairs downward. Occasionally, the path is illuminated... by magma behind what appear to be solid diamond barriers. Certainly impressive, though you wonder whether illusions could generate the same impression. Probably. Your mind toys with the idea; perhaps a well-shaft that appears to descend into the magma itself... It would be intimidating, of that you do not doubt.

Ostentatious lighting or no, it does not hide the fact that although the corridor is quite spacious, you are descending deep into the interior of the earth. Thousands of tons of rock above you, and the corridor appears to go even farther down.... At least you're buoyant in magma, you decide.

Hours later, the corridor has grown uncomfortably warm, and terminates in a second massive stone door. This one, though, is not buried, and opens as you approach to examine it.

The platform beyond is illuminated by massive braziers, burning (presumably,) eternally. Beyond that is a gargantuan chasm, in which, what can only be assumed to be the Twice-Bound, is chained. A gargantuan figure, looking a bit odd for a Red, perhaps a side effect of being at least five thousand years old, and presumably well over. His eyes are massive scars, rendering him presumably blind, and the chains bind him down, Binding his appendages, body, and perforating his flesh. Almost excessive, you think, though his title might suggest otherwise.

Though the doors swung open silently, and you have made no noise, the vast creature stirs, and you can hear him inhaling, sniffing the air. He eventually seems to verify your presence, and stares blindly up at you. He does not speak, though, and after waiting a few minutes, you greet him.

“The Twice-Bound, I presume?” you ask easily in draconic, voice echoing disturbingly loud in the silence. Another few seconds pass, and you are about to repeat your question when he finally reacts.

“You... are not the Binder. Nor are you one of the Bound... Unless you are new? But you remind me of the Binder, so /much/ like the Binder... Who are you?” the voice sounds like it's meant to be a quiet rumble, but incredibly loud. Trying to return the dragon's favor, you stay silent yourself.

“You smell like a dragon... A red like myself, in fact. Perhaps not like myself? Not very like myself. But you remind me of the Binder... Binder would not have come, after all these years. No. You are not. A pity. I'd be willing to wait on her... I can out-wait her, certainly I can. I've waited so long already. Hardly any different.”. The Twice-Bound pauses, as if processing something. When he speaks again, it's sounds like he's talking mostly to you, as oppose to mostly to himself.

“So what do you want? Who do you serve? Surely you didn't pass through the outer gates on a lark; who sent you? Watcher? Dead One, that old corpse? Maybe Soulless?” he laughs after the last, as if at some private joke, and it echoes horridly in the chamber. For all you know, he's practiced that. You suppose one might run out of things to do in five thousand years.

>>14071228
"I am...unique in regards to the Binder as far as I know. She - for all intents and purposes - created me, but does not exert control on me. She can unmake my mind, but does not.

I've come seeking knowledge. I think you know what kind."

and additionally,

"What about me reminds you so much of the Binder?"

We could ask him how he evaded the binding. maybe a bit more about himself. maybe information on the past. any information would be useful. Also lets try to disguise that we really want this information. I doubt we will succeed since he is far older than us.

>>14071228
"The Binder is dead. Ironically her soul is imprisoned on the astral plane... bound much like you are. Still, she keeps finding ways to try and be reborn, reawakened, reanimated. Would you see her do so? Or would you keep her from doing so? One of these replies holds, perhaps, salvation for you. The other... well, let's just say five thousand years is not that long in the grand scheme of things. Twenty, thirty, or even fifty thousand years... truly that would be so very dull."

See if we can get him to tell us about himself, the Binder, and the other Bound. Give away nothing if we can. Be aware that he will likely try to pry anything and everything he can from us. He obviously has the ability to sense us even without eyes or... who knows what else was taken from him. We must be cautious, this could be an instant game-over if we play it wrong.

rolled 97, 61 = 158

>>14071254
>>14071228
Yeah, may as well lay it all on the table, factual and to the point.

He'll know what he wants in return, let him ask and we'll negotiate.

>>14071254
HELL NO WHAT THE FUCK!

Don't just hand him this information. This is possibly the most dangerous being we have ever encountered. Dracolich included. We don't just *tell* him anything!

>>14071290
We have to eventually, in order to get the information we want.

>>14071275
No. We don't play any cards until we are forced to do so. I don't trust this guy.

>>14071228
"What I want is simple, a way to be rid of the Binder's influence. Who I serve is simpler, i serve myself."

Since we are a red dragon this is a basic answer. We dont want anyone to be in control of us and we dont say anything about Scinarri and our daughter, so they are safe.

>>14071228
"The Binder is long gone and all but forgotten- but still lingering, trying to return. All too recently, the Dead One almost returned to the Material and I was barely able to stop him. You are here, one of the last vestiges of who she was and what she knew. I need to know all I can of her, or her next plan might be more successful than the last. And I don't think that you would like that any more than I."

Don't tell him that we could be the key to the Binder's return, or that she created us- he'll be able to put together the former from the latter. Play this cautious, get information without giving too much away- we can always come back later if we need more, and this guy might be imprisoned but he's still fucking huge and doubtless an incredible badass.

>>14071299
Maybe, but until that time we don't tell him shit. Get everything we can for free, then move on to being stingy with actual trades. He's the one locked in chains and perpetual hell, remember?

>>14071332
>but he's still fucking huge and doubtless an incredible badass

not to mention the high probablility the he's gone bonkers underneath that mountain.

>>14071228
Flattery, half truths and never lies. We're researching the binder.

Ask him about himself, about the binder, about the dead one, soulless, and watcher. Ask him about his name and how he got it.

Get as much information for as little as we can, but in the end we may have to pay. Maybe he'd like a meal?

Do not tell him what we are. Ever.

wooo dragonquest!

“I believe the Binder would be technically counted as 'dead'.” you reply, trying to sound as if you're more concerned about the precise semantics of her actual condition rather than the gargantuan dragon bound below you. “She endures on the Astral plane, but evidently... 'bound', as it were.” you pause, as if to examine Twice-Bound. “Like yourself, in a way, but less... literal, I think. And no, neither her, nor any of the others you mentioned sent me. She claims to be able to exert control over me. Not a precise Binding, I do not believe, but-” You are cut off by more strangely horrifying laughter. You pause, as it echoes around the chamber- by the echoes, it is a vast cavern.

“'Not a precise Binding, I don't believe,'” Twice-Bound mocks, even his high pitched imitation louder and deeper than your own voice. He breaks off into more laughter, before repeating it again. Then it drops to something that sounds like continents grinding against each other. “You would /know/ if you had been Bound, whelp. Hmm... If you are neither Bound, serving one of us, nor Her directly... Right, of course. You're here to see how you can escape? I can't help you.”

“Tiamat's tail, you can't!” you laugh back scornfully. “Her words with me suggest that she chose me as a... 'promising' young drake, and 'remade' me as her tool. Her threats suggest that she can undo that, and in the process, I would revert to my condition when she first claimed me, including my age, mind, and memories.” you pause, allowing him to comment if he desires. He doesn't, and so you continue. “She desires me to... free her servants, facilitate her release.”

“As ever she would. Has she sent you after Soulless yet?” he asks, pausing, as if tasting the air. You don't suppose he can read your thoughts through his nose, but-

“No, no, you'd respond to Soulless. /I'd/ respond to Soulless. Still, you did respond to something... Watcher? Dead One? Ah... Dead One.” he replies, evidently confident in his guess, or your reaction. Whatever he's reading. “How is the bastard son of a swamp eel?”

“Shall I take it, then, that you were not particularly fond of... it? Him?” you ask cautiously. If they happen to have been friends, you probably shouldn't answer truthfully, and he seems to know enough to guess at lying.

“I have found things in rotting corpses that I was more fond of than him” Twice Bound replies,.“This? “ he asks, twitching one of his claws, evidently gesturing at the spike pinning it to the floor. “I'm more fond of /that/ than him. Which makes me quite pleased that you happen to have done something terrible to the mutated kobold. Do tell.”

“I introduced it to a few kegs of dwarven blasting powder.” you explain, then elaborate. “If the name doesn't give it away, it's a material that tends to expand instantly, and violently when ignited. At a guess, it shattered most of his skeleton, and incinerated or blew off most of his flesh that remained. Which ought to have done him good, because he smelled /terrible/.” you reply.

“And he isn't lying. I would know... and he probably knows that by now. He /does/ know that by now. So, dear Whelp, what do you desire? A reward? My assistance? Hah. As you can see, I am... otherwise detained. See... Can you see? Yes, yes he can see... Or at least he wasn't born blind-? No, you can see, can't you. Of course... I'm afraid I am bound, as the name might imply... You'd be surprised. So /very/ surprised... Imagine having your mind molded and beaten, poured like molten metal, forged like an object...” he says, sounding like he's talking more to himself than you.

“But you /escaped/.” you state. “You are the /one/ to escape. Twice-Bound, the one upon w-”

“I am /MANY/-/BOUND/.” he roars back at you, a deafening sound that forces you to clap your hands over your ears. Even the echoes seem to pound your eardrums, threatening deafness with each rebound. At length, it quiets enough for you to uncover your ears. He continues. “I, I /alone/, am the one who could summon the... /strength/ to overcome a Binding. Two, /three/ Bindings. I am the one proved to her that repetition gained her nothing... That proved that some simply could not be Bound!” His voice mounts as he speaks, and you cover your ears again. The echoes die away eventually, and he continues, “Of course, you bear witness to what that got me.”

>>14071554
"Then help me stick it to the bitch. I've no love for her. Tell me how it can be done, and imagine her realizing she's trapped for good. Never to return, with the Unbindable to blame."

>>14071554
"Then tell me of her, and of the ones who were not strong enough to fight. It's only a matter of time before she moves to break free again, and I will -not- be her tool."

>>14071554
Knowledge only you hold, of course. The greatest of the Bound, the one who could not be controlled nor tamed. Tell me of the Binder, and of what she did to me if you have any knowledge of it. If she truly can unmake me, I do not much like the idea. If she can try to bind me, I like that even less. Aiding me will be putting a blade to her heart and twisting, slowly. To be locking her away just as she did to you. Wield your legendary knowledge and will against her once more and show her the folly of ever trying to control you."

maybe ask him about himself before and after he met the binder. Also ask him along with the other bound.

rolled 80 = 80

OH SHI- Dragonquest.

"So just sheer will power did it then. That's what you're telling me? Well what in the Nine-Hells am I doing here? I'll leave you to your thinking for awhile then."

Promptly make our way back up the stairs. If he TRULY wants something, he will either call to us, be too prideful to do it then or perhaps call to us later.

I'm voting for asking all about the Bound. Specifically, the Binder's lieutenants or highest servants, or whatever they were. Soulless and Watcher, and the Sage Spinel.

Twicey should know something about them, and Soulless sounds like somebody we REALLY NEED TO KNOW ABOUT, if it would get a reaction out of a 5000-year-old badass dragon like him. I'd put Soulless at the top of the list of "learn more" questions. We could stick Dead One down towards the bottom, maybe. We've already met him, for one, and got at least some sense of him already.

(And lulz at mutated kobold. Bastard spawn of a swamp eel was also particularly good.)

>>14071769
Deadders was pretty nasty, but he doesn't seem anywhere nearly as powerful as Twice or Soulless.

>>14071798
Yes, that's why Soulless is at the top of the "ask who this is" list. After all, if Twicey thinks the Binder will eventually send us after Soulless, I want to know just WHO Soulless is. Remember, it makes Twicey nervous. And that is a very bad thing for us.

“Fine. I desire to be... like you, in that regard.” you state, carefully, “Tell me how you did it.”

“Truly? Very well... Sit yourself down; in a thousand years I might tell you.” Twice Bound replies. “Not that it would help you. It didn't help Lorekeeper; you aren't half the- No, pointless. Hmm...” Twice Bound's strange hum reverberates through the cavern, warping and changing as the echoes bounce. “But I am willing to indulge in some pointless generosity this day, and perhaps it even has a point...” he says. “The Binding is a contest of wills. The ritual itself gives one side an... advantage. Leverage. Oh, quite the advantage.” He pauses, and you wait hopefully for him to continue. “No. No. Nevermind... You're unique, aren't you? Yes... you said that. Think you're unique... Don't we all? Well, with credit where it's due, some of us /know/ we're unique.”

“So it shouldn't matter if you tell me- If you're... unique, it will not help me.” you reason. He laughs again.

“True. But why would you believe anything a crazy old relic like me says? I've been down here for seven thousand years or so. I'm probably insane.”

“Seven thousand?”

“Do you have a better number? I certainly don't know. Counting the seconds while calculating gets boring, eventually. And I hardly know how long I've been sleeping.” he replies, noticeably more lucid than his usual rambling.

“Five thousand seems the order of time that I've found reference to.” you offer, “Now perhaps that's worth a full explanation?”

“Perhaps...” he answers, and subsides. You wait, as the minutes stretch out, and start to think he's resolved to wait a thousand years as he threatened. Near fifteen minutes, though, he seems to awaken again. “Perhaps I may. Greed. You know it; I know it more. If something is... all-consuming, all-powerful, Binding may be temporarily resisted. Stormcaller did it. Watcher could do it. Only /I/ could do it... constantly. Near constantly. Which is why I was placed... out of the way. And now I can't even die... A wonderful little arrangement, if only I were free.”

“Do you think that, perhaps, that could be arranged?” you ask. Careful to promise nothing. He gives one of his abominable laughs again.

“/Release?/ /Me/? You are more amusing than you can possibly have meant. Tell me, does it still bear Her warning on the door?” he wheezes, evidently finding your commend quite hilarious.

“Some was visible; the front door is partially buried.” you reply, deciding not to give the full answer. It is, apparently, not necessary.

“And it /fears/ me. As you should, Whelp. “do not bother me with your deathbed prayers...”. I don't suppose she still masquerades as a god?”

“As she can. She doesn't really seem to be remembered.” you admit. He laughs again.

“I am quite content down here. It doesn't believe me. You shouldn't. Hardly anything to be content about... But I need not answer to Tiamat, as I neither age nor die, I... am sure you are not interested. Suffice to say, while it could be more entertaining, I don't think I would prefer the alternatives... Naturally, you don't believe me. It shouldn't. Still, it must, hadn't it?” he pauses, and you sense a titanic effort, as if he's literally pulling itself together. When Twice-Bound speaks again, he sounds almost perfectly lucid. Not quite, but close.

“The Binding can be overcome, given enough effort. Dedication, devotion, need. As long as you desperately feel with all your mind, all your /soul/ that you must resist, fight, and never give in... Sometimes you can. Stomcaller did it, when Binder ordered her to kill his mate. For a time. Lorekeeper actually managed it. Managed to resist it, resist one order, completely. Fight the Binder, though Lorekeeper could not.”

“And how did you do it?” you ask, as he seems to stop.

“I just /told/ you, whelp. Pure, unmitigated greed. Greed the likes of which this world has never seen. A /god/ could have subsisted off of my greed alone... I fed it, nurtured it, and directed it at everything I desired. Lorekeeper, Stormcaller, they may have touted love as the ultimate defense. They were /wrong/. You might be able to imitate such emotion... temporarily. The moment you waver, the Binding will overcome you. And you will be swept away..... A leaf ripped off by a stream. A leaf... I'd forgotten about them. Until I smelled you...” Twice-Bound trails off and settles down, apparently finished with his explanation.

>>14071769
>>14071872
Still wanting to ask about these. And possibly Lorekeeper now, too. If he had information, we could use it.

Wonderful, more of what we basically already knew. I can't tell if nobody knows ANYTHING in this setting or WD just hates giving us information.

Ask about the bound. Specifically Soulless and Lorekeeper. Soulless because he sounds like a bad dude and Lorekeeper because he sounds like a promising next target to investigate if we want to actually find SOMETHING out.

rolled 22 = 22

Heh, "love" I like how you say that word with contempt. I feel the same, "love," is such a trivial thing. My greed is plentiful as well, however, I am cautious, patient, and don't bite off more than I can eviscerate with my teeth. Perhaps we are much alike in that aspect. My question to you would be this then, /Many/ Bound. Where might I find this one that is known as, Lorekeeper? Also, I'm sure you have met the Spinel Sage. Any advice with that damned thing?"

>>14072003
We need to ask about the other bound, and about the spinel sage.

oh my many bound is an orange lantern.

lets ask him about the other bound starting with soulless and finally the binder herself.

Ask about the Spinel and other Bound.

>>14072003
Twice-Bound, you belong to Agent Orange.

Another question that never got answered

"What about me reminds you of the binder?"

>>14072137
Probably the fact that the Binder rebuilt us in some unknown fashion way back at the start of the quest. It's why we have more spellcasting power than other dragons our age, for example.

>>14072003
Ask about the Binder. Who was she? How does she think? What will she try, locked away as she is? How strong is her hold over her Bound, when she can't easily contact them?

>>14072158
wen don't know that for sure, there's reason to doubt the spinel sage.

>>14072113
With blood and rage of crimson red
Ripped from a corpse so freshly dead
Together with our hellish hate
We'll burn you all, THAT IS YOUR FATE

>>14072181
True, but Twicey confirmed that we "smell" of the Binder, so I'm more inclined to think that it may not have been lying about this, at least.

>>14072003
Well if we're ever bound we'll know what to do.

Lets take care of our family and catch us a gold dragon. After we got her contained we can start taking over her network in freetown.

we still have some more questions after that we proably can go.

After another twenty-plus minutes, you decide he's not going to reply again. You break the silence.

“While I am grateful for your information, there is still more I desire to know.”

“Isn't there always? 'I wonder why, but the world will die...'. Very well. You came here for something specific. Something more... The Bound? Some of the names you've known... You knew Watcher. You'd- No.....” his voice is almost a purr, “/No..../, you /know/ watcher....”. You wonder, with heartfelt urgency, whether he can read your mind. “You'd... heard of... Soulless. As with Stomcaller... and you've /met/ the Dead One.”

“These names... These Bound, what can you tell me about them?” you voice, trying to guide his ramblings. If he's going to be probing your reactions, somehow, he might as well give you more interesting tidbits in the process.

“Really? You find such... /ancient/ history interesting? I am... /honored/.” he says with mock seriousness, Very well... Lorekeeper... an excellent opponent. I must say, I treasured her enmity. As I did few things... A gold, of similar age to myself. My better in a few areas....” he seems on the verge of trailing off, so you shift slightly, trying to draw his attention back to you. Whatever vestiges of lucidity he'd forced upon himself, they have fully departed.

“The one you know as Watcher began as a Brass... Far too... talkative, for anyone's taste. As, I'm sure you have found- No? Will find, then, all Brasses are. Worthless creatures. So worthless, in fact, She found more use for Watcher as a tool, the... crystal? Yes, she's still... minus a body. Soulless's counterpart! As always.... Stormcaller... Well... He was sometimes known as 'Warbringer'.... Who else have you heard of? Of course, that winged, venom-spitting snake, Dead One. He sought escape in lichdom. While it succeeded in making him a more appealing individual, I think it would be charitable to merely call his pursuits a failure. He was wonderfully bitter about it, afterward, though. If you see him again, do ask him how long it's been since he's tasted something... elven. Or- No, nevermind. That would be enough to enrage him beyond- Ah, if that doesn't work, tell him I asked whether he wants borrow any /more/ gems from me.... That will do it.”

“And Soulless?” you ask, trying to keep him on subject. His tone very clearly outlines his fleeting focus.

“Soulless... A despicable white. The least of us all... I'm sure he's nothing for you to worry about. Why, he might even be smaller than you- I'm not certain quite how old you are... Two hundred years? A-”

“Then why do you fear him!?” you interrupt hurriedly, preferring not to let his preternatural 'reading' zero in on your age.

“I fear NO ONE.” Again, his roar is deafening, and your ears ring for what feels like half an hour before you can continue your conversation. Eventually, you can hear his roars again, as the echoing fades from your ringing head. “Certainly not a... /construct/ like Soulless. Just know that he exists, he obeys, is mindlessly intelligent, and will never stop. But no, none of this... Perhaps the binder? The Arcane Queen, the mortal who rose up to oppose gods, to claim dominion over dragons? Interested, but no.... This isn't what you came for, is it? Nor the other Bound... Merely something you thought to go after, while you were here.... Very well. Ask... and be answered. Perhaps.”

“Perhaps? How encouraging.” you snark. Probably not strictly wise, but his bellowing is both intimidating and /incredibly/ obnoxious. “Very well. Does Binding.... Or what she has done to me, as it manifestly isn't Binding, does it affect bloodlines? Can it be... inherited?”

This, he seems to find simply hilarious. So damnably funnny... His raucous laughter extend first one, then five minutes. Eventually, you lose all patience, and turn to leave- A calculated bluff, of course. You need your answers. Almost instantly, he stops laughing, though the echoes bounce chaotically in his wake.

“No. Not... at... all. Your offspring, whatever they may be, are safe from actual control... She may, perhaps, speak to them, but they are not the... /conduit/ that you are for her. She can cajole, plead, and threaten, but it is just that, threats. And she can be blocked form them, if you make the effort. They are... /relatively/... safe. And that... I think that is all you need answered, for the moment, isn't it? Yes... yes it is. Go away, whelp, I shall speak with you another time.”

“I see... Why are you so sure?” you ask, trying to find a chink in his armor of surety.

“Because you will return. Either serving the Binder, or opposing her still... you will return. Perhaps to release me... Haha- Perhaps to kill me. Likely neither. We shall see.... And besides, I would not want to use up the one... One conversationalist I have had in the past hundreds, thousands, of years... I would not wish you use you up all at once. Watcher will answer you questions. Good... day? Another time... Yes, another time, I think, we shall speak again. But for now...”

What is 'for now', you do not find out, as Twice-Bound sinks below, returning to as you found him- seemingly asleep. Another hour passes, and he does not stir, nor respond to any of your wheedling. Convinced that he means it this time, you finally turn to depart in earnest - he's obviously capable of waiting longer than you are.

Well, I guess that's it. We can tell Scinnarri that the Binder should be less of a problem, on par with the devil, solvable with the amulet we will have made, or have already made as the case may be. Also, make a note to self, to tell our daughter, if any voice inside her head she doesn't recognize, tell us or Scinarri immediately. Could either be the devils or the Binder.

>>14072282
Well, time to go back home, then. Probably not appropriate to talk with the Watcher at this point- at least, not right now; there's little point confronting it about what we know when it can still read our mind effortlessly.

Anyway, there are two significant things to do in the immediate future.

First, take good care of our egg and Scinnari. If her communication can be blocked with effort... well, hopefully our efforts laid out thus far will already suffice. But we should explain to our daughter before she hatches that the Binder might touch her mind and is to be ignored or treated with the utmost hostility; hopefully the Binder will not be able to contact her before then, since she's not a dragon.

>>14072344
Second, we have let the Cygnis plan sit too long, when in our last conversation with her she was extremely depressed and lonely- we MUST exploit her current emotional vulnerability and hope that she hasn't patched it. Carve out a couple weeks to go visit her and try to get her as in love with us as possible, then convince her to go on a trip with us- for at least a couple months- and thus set herself up for an absence from her affairs in Freeport. When we leave, hit her with a collar that she can't take off which prevents spellcasting- including wand or scroll use, contingencies, etc.- and shapechanging, except at our explicit command. I would rather hope that we've got this item on hand by now since we've been plotting this for a while.

After that, take her to Mza and do the whole enslavement thing; get her magic items which turn what we say to her into suggestion spells and whisper how wonderful we are and how good it is to obey us into her mind at all times, and supplement them with all the classic evil gloating that we're planning to do to make her as unstable- and therefore malleable- as possible. Throw something on her to prevent scrying and communication with her from any allies she has, and we should be able to pull the whole thing off fairly smoothly.

After a few weeks of our tender handling, hopefully we'll be able to get everything she knows- and if not, well, we can use the Watcher to get it, because even if it lies it can still be useful for this.

>>14072351
Trying this on a Dragon seems like a bad idea to me. Wait until we can Bind her, patience pays off.

>>14072384
I agree, better to be completely prepared (or , as prepared as feasibly possible), in case something should go awry

For the record guys, I'm pretty sure with all these badass dragons who apparently were around and bound... we would rather not tangle with Soulless, no matter what this guy says. He seems a lot more powerful than a "tiny white, the least of us all" would indicate judging by the early commentary. I'm honestly more worried about him than about Lorekeeper or even Watcher. I mean, he is a bound and could have been telling us lies the entire time for all we know. Even about our kid. No, especially about our kid.

That said, not much else we can do at this point other than buy her the best mental protection money can buy and cross our fingers that he wasn't. I would love to get my hands on a library that once belonged to a dragon named "Lorekeeper" though. Delicious knowledge, I must have. Nom nom nom.

Anyway, moving on to warding our daughter as heavily as possible and then finally solving the Cygnis problem once and for all.

I think we actually saw The Watcher before. Remember the ghost dragon weeping in the underground temple, where we got the spinel sage crystal. I think she is actually The Watcher, and thus not a problem, at least for now.

>>14072384
>>14072396
Don't be silly. It will literally be a thousand years before we can bind her. "Binding" is not something you just do for shits and giggles. We take her now, because waiting for the ability to bind is like waiting the stars to burn out.

>>14072427
Read the post again, he's referring to the crystal. Be prepared for another round of verbal sparring, with the crystal this time.

Cygnis amulet traits:

>Can not be removed.
>We control her shapeshifting completely.
>Can scry on her at will.
Can speak to her mentally at will.
All commands by us can be made to be suggestions.
>She can not teleport or be scryed upon.
>She can not mentally communicate with others.
Permanently charmed towards us.

Ideally we have the time to make ALL of these happen, our first minor artifact. Amulet of Control. But if we can't do that the greentexted ones are vital.

>>14072450
Ah yes, you're right. When i saw that the watcher being called a brass, i assumed that he would be connected to the ghost. Hmm, maybe that's where the Binder smell comes from, we have been in close contact with it for quite a while now.

>>14072396
>>14072384
It will be centuries if not millennia until we can Bind things, if ever. We will not be able to play emotional games with Cygnis indefinitely- not to mention that eventually she'll accumulate enough power that our lovingly crafted items may not be able to hold her. Our odds of success if we wait therefore only go down. Unless we're planning to try and retake Freeport as Cibach- and frankly we don't have the time to act in that persona anymore- there is no point delaying longer.

>>14072484
I doubt it. More likely he just put two and two together and said "Well, he's here and this place is completely restricted. Ergo he has something about him."

Plus he knows the binder well and we're infused with her magical power. I imagine to those who know the binder that intimately and can literally smell magic could tell what we are period.

You depart, and the doors shut behind you as you leave Twice-Bound (or Many-Bound? He seemed to make distinction only when it suited him.... Like some others you could mention.) to his cavern. The stairs stretch up before you, but you feel less than pleased with the prospects of the long walk up. Instead, you teleport. You emerge outside the outer gate, pausing out of a strange desire to observe it, lest you return.

The next week passes slowly- now that the threat hanging over your daughter, or at least, the larges, is clear (more like 'as clear as it can get',), you find yourself impatient, spending time with Scinnari and her, withdrawing almost completely to your lair. It is not something you wish to miss under any circumstance. Despite your efforts, you almost do anyway- You return from Angevis, missing a scheduled meeting with Lady Issa, at Scinnari's frantic call.

####################

Cracks have already appeared in the shell when you arrive. Hairline, but distinct and growing. You stalk to Scinnari's side, and lay yourself down, watching your daughter's emergence. The dark red of the shell slowly fractures before you, and tiny claws tear away the remaining unbroken section. Your daughter slowly rips her way out of the interior, discarding the eggshell around her. Unsteadily, she stands. The first thought that occurs to you is that she's warped, malformed, perhaps even /damaged/... then another part of your mind logically points out that she's hardly /done/ growing. She certainly shouldn't be staying this size, anyway...

>>14072470
You didn't mention restraining her spellcasting at all, and that is very important. This item is virtually useless if she retains the ability to hit it with a Dispel Magic and knock out all its effects for a few seconds.

And she has to be able to teleport, or at least be teleported. Otherwise we'll have a bitch of a time getting her to Mza after she puts it on. Shielding from scrying isn't quite strong enough; she'll also need to be barred from Sending spells and the like, which are normally benign communication but allow two-way and thus could compromise us here.

>>14072538
We can still teleport her, just no teleporting for herself.

And yes, let's just change that "no teleporting" to "no spellcasting" while keeping the "can't be scryed upon" clause. Maybe make it Mind Blank level if possible since we are already going minor artifact.

Near three feet tall, and mostly humanoid, she has a pair of straight black horns pointing up and backward. To your satisfaction, they even twist slightly, like your own. Her feet and her hands have elongated claws, looking almost comically oversized, presumably because claws grow more slowly than everything else will. Her skin looks faintly red in the dim light of your lair, and patches of deep red scales exist on the back of her shoulders, her face, arms, and legs.... Her eyes have the cat's-eye, or rather, dragon's eye pupil, not the human or erinyes version, though that hardly stands out. Her face is angular, somewhat reminiscent of an elf's... or a red dragons, if it occurred to make the comparison. Her tail, too, stands out. A scaled, very draconic tail extends from the base of her spine, much thinner, yet still bizarrely thick for such a small creature. It's scaled, as is the small of her back. And her wings! Oversized, clumsy protuberances, bearing gray and red plumage- a pale gray, but the central vein of each feather as deep a red as her scales....

Despite her elven features, she's already slightly heavier set than an elf, and the scales and horns, not to mention wings, prevent her from appearing to be anything but... unique. While you care, it doesn't bother you in the slightest; first of all, there's magic, should she need to appear normal, and secondly, it's only fitting that /your/ /daughter/ be special. Unique.

“F-father?” she voices with some difficulty as she looks up at your looming form, someone who knows, intellectually, exactly how to speak, but has never done it before. “Mo-other?” her words have the alien quality of someone trying to say a word they've never heard before- that ever-so-slightly imperfect accenting and stressing. Presumably, the only way she's speaking at all is by forcing unused vocal chords to do their thing.

>>14072537
OH FUCK YEA!

“Of course.” you say, a deep and gentle purr. Bringing your head down to her level, (something you realize you rarely do,) you stare at her for a moment before whispering, “I glad to finally see you. Azyra.”

“I'm glad to /see/.” Azyra replies, intent of her words almost lost in her strange phrasing. She steps forward unsteadily, and you reflect that while the cushions were wonderful padding, expecting her first steps to be on /that/ was simply unreasonable. Her teetering threatens to become a fall, and you move your that. She slumps against your snout, and wraps her arms around you. You support her for a moment, as you move you massive claw, and pull the pillows out of her path, then brush the gold out from below it too. She clings to you as you move the things, then stands precariously, leaning on your snout. You allow her to right herself, and then draw back- she steps forward, much more stably, if still without much experience. Scinnari, though you haven't been looking at her, seems to have finally found her tongue.

“Azyra- My daughter...” Scinnari says, almost haltingly. With clumsy fingers, Azyra accepts the robe Scinnari had, draping over her shoulders inexpertly. Scinnari assists, guiding the slit in the robe over Azyra's wings. It settles, and Scinnari seems to waver for a moment, before sweeping Azyra up in her arms, cradling her.

“Moth-ther!” Azyra squeaks in protest, protest that you suspect is mostly feigned. “I ca-an sss- tand-”

“I love you, Azyra. My daughter.” the words seem to be almost reverential. Awkwardly, Azyra returns the embrace.

“I- love you, too, mother... Fath- Father.” Azyra seems embarrassed, her skin is flushing a deeper red... You lean in to join in the hug as much as you can, and Azyra clumsily pats you on the brow.

“Azyra, please, you have nothing to be embarrassed over- Your mother loves you dearly, as do I. You are my /daughter/... My princess.” you reply, nuzzling her very gently. Despite your efforts, Scinnari rocks , and you are forced to halt. Azyra giggles. You pause, and pass over the ring and amulet you prepared for her- the ring to allow you communication, and tracking, and the amulet to interdict any teleportation. She delightedly fumbles the ring onto one of her fingers.

“We both love you very much, Azyra-” you reiterate. As you draw away, you notice that Scinnari's tears, and her expression... sad. Bittersweet. You open your mouth to voice a question, but Scinnari speaks first, her thoughts sounding in your mind.

“Azaladon?” she asks.

“Yes?” you reply, merely answering, as she sounds like she's steeling herself to explain. The silence stretches on, though, and you prompt her. “What can I do for you, my lady?”

“I... I'm sorry.” her communication strikes you as bizarre, particularly for such a... joyous occasion. A moment later, though, she's gone. /Teleported./ The space she occupied is empty, you are alone in your lair, your consort and child vanished.

>>14072572
We will locate and systematically remove the limbs of all those responsible.

Including Scinnari.

>>14072564
Oh shi-

HNNNNNNGGGGGGG...

Such a d'awww moment.

THERE ARE NO WORDS......GODDAMN!

>atiction payroll
yes capcha, action is needed, GET everyone on the payroll. EVERYONE!

>>14072572
Hmmm.

Was it sad that I expected this and am not terribly shocked?

Fortunately the amulet we had prepared possessed a tracking device, correct? I think that was one of the specifications. Scinnari wouldn't actually have known about that if we prepared it, so I would presume we could you know... follow the amulet yes?

>>14072572
Immediately scry and follow. No preparations. DEFEND YOUR CHILD WITH TOOTH AND CLAW AND FIRE.

We should forgive Scinnari she had no choice it sounds like. The people responsible will pay however.

>>14072572
Well. Hrm. I assume that she didn't get that amulet on, or she couldn't possibly have teleported out. But the ring... if she got it on, at least until she takes it off we'll be able to track her. And we are no slouch at teleportation ourselves- while Scinnari has better teleportation abilities, she can only use them to transport herself, not others. That means she's using an item of some kind, which is inevitably more limited. So immediate pursuit should work.

On the other hand. It would be basically allowing ourselves to be drawn into a trap, if that's what's readied for us. Dare we risk it?

...yes. Yes, we dare risk it. Our daughter is, more than any other thing we have, -ours-. She's literally made partly of us. None- NONE- should dare to take what it ours.

>>14072618
Fuck forgiving Scinnari. If she wanted to not do this, then she could have wriggled around whatever was forcing her to it, dropped hints to us so that we could prevent it, done SOMETHING. Instead, tears and an apology before prompt betrayal?

No. It's sad that amongst the first things Azyra will get to see is her father tearing her mother limb from limb, but at least it will teach her a valuable lesson about what the deserved fruits of betrayal are.

>>14072572
Can we contact her? Azyra that is. the ring allows for communication so we can ask her what is going on around her. Provided she's conscious and not warded.

>>14072572
My first thought was to check the hoard.

I suppose I would make a bad father, but I can totally play it off as wanting to make sure all our powerful things are still there. Yeah. For the inevitable tracking. Of course, that's why I wanted to check it.

Also, seconding the amulet-tracing. I mean, come on, surely our meticulous and madness-inducing prep-work will for once pay off, right? Scrying/tracking and universal communication with our daughter through all planes and places were both specifically mentioned.

Plus, I imagine the amount of EPIC RAGE that just ensued will stoke the furnace that is our magical power like woah, shattering all kinds of blocking wards.

>>14072609
Right. We use the tracking device in the amulet, and then start with the well-known wizardly tactics of scry and die, or in this case SCRY AND MURDER EVERYTHING IN OUR WAY.

I'd say even spending a Wish from our genie might be worthwhile.

Also, in the future we really need to get around to setting up either a Forbiddance or a Dimensional Lock around our lair. Preferably both:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm

There are other, more esoteric spells (other books and Dragon magazine), but those are the basic two that we'd need something approximating.

>>14072572
>A moment later, though, she's gone. /Teleported./ The space she occupied is empty, you are alone in your lair, your consort and child vanished.
>/Teleported./
>your lair
Scinnari has compromised our entire lair defense network without our knowledge. We have dimensional locks on all important rooms; that should definitely have included the one where our daughter was hatching. It's possible that she just had it dispelled or disjoined, but it's also possible that the wards have holes in them. I didn't think she knew enough magic for that.

Or maybe she moved the items generating the field somehow, if we were using items instead of having our actual lair enchanted. Can't recall what method we're using.

I knew that this would happen.

In retrospect: We should 've mind raped her (scinnari) to be our loyal slave when we had a chance.

>>14072658
We have things exactly that potent all over our lair, it's just Scinnari was exempt from them.

I say was because I imagine all our defenses get rearranged very quickly. Also, yeah, we still have two wishes left I think. We could go ahead and use one, though it makes me sad.

>>14072658
I think technically we've had it, but Forbiddance, IIRC, allows pre-programed exceptions, which I presume we've been glossing over. That said, yeah, from now on, if Scinnari survives the ensuing... conflagration, her teleporting-in-our-lair privileges are SO revoked.

>>14072683

This. We need to fix the holes so that the only exemption is US.

I assume she took her collar off and tossed it somewhere, but just in case we should try tracking it as well.

On the bright side, before this is over we'll probably be kicking some serious ass in dragon form.

>rage mighty

Yes, captcha. Yes indeed.

heavy.jpg

SCINNARI WAS SPY ALL ALONG.

>>14072719
Sadly, oh so sadly, our breath weapon won't be of much use against devils. But rip and tear goodness can be substituted instead.

...Well. Guess it's time to get our murder on.

Throwing in with the IMMEDIATELY FOLLOW crowd, but first go grab the genie bottle. Depending on what we see at the location we are about to teleport to, a wish to soften up the opposition might be in order.

So did yall really not see this coming? It has only been eluded to since we met her.

I can think of an appropriate punishment for this betrayal.

We lock her away in a cell, bind her with all the appropriate wards and spells to ensure that she cannot escape, and leave her there. Meanwhile, our daughter will grow up, live out her life, and eventually grow old and die. And all that time Scinnari will remain locked in her cell. For what she has done, she will miss her daughter's entire life.

>>14072778
And it's taken, what, 35 threads to get here.

>>14072781
now that's just /evil/. I approve.

>>14072778
Pretty sure everyone here saw it coming, but were hoping Scinnari would choose the path that didn't entail severe dragon-level response. Alas...

Anyway; insta-scry, wishes, ideally a protection from evil spell and massive buffs, plus bringing our elite cadre of mindbroken with us to help out in the fight. They were all mid to high level adventurers after all. Also ULTIMATE MAGICAL POWER FUELED BY RAGE, and suchlike.

>>14072781
Our child may not be subject to aging.

>>14072794
adding to this, i'd say build her cell to look exactly like the tower we first found her in as well.

>>14072801
Then she'll be spending an eternity in that cell.

>>14072801
Then Scinnari will spent rest of eternity rotting in her cell.

>>14072801
Dragons, though they age incredibly slowly, do age, and can die of old age. It's not at all pretty, and most dragons try to find a way out of it (there are actually various draconic suicide rituals to avoid it, in addition to things like lichdom), but dragons do eventually die of old age. Though our child is also half-devil, that doesn't confer immortality.

I don't see why everyone is intent on punishing Scinnari. I thought it was pretty clear that she didnt want to do this.

How this should be handled is the same way that we would handle the theft of any of the horde. Violence on the one responsible, and this case that would be Scinnari's Superiors.

Somebody want to archive this thread?

>>14072801
It would still die eventually. Whether we'd be around by that point as well, of course...

Before that kind of punishment for Scinnari, though, I think we should find out just how much choice she had in the matter. If she was forced to do what she did by orders from superiors who were very, very good at giving orders covering all loopholes and eventualitys... Well, seems a little silly to blame her for that, when we could be setting our minds to messing with the ones giving the orders. Plus, if we could break her away from their control (Wish, perhaps?), she might still be useful.

Of course, if she betrayed us willingly, we have all kinds of ideas, including letting her see us replace her, along with afore-mentioned imprisonment. Or, you know, just selling her to demons. Whatever.

>>14072828
She may not have wanted to, but she still did it anyway. There will be punishment, pure and simple.

>>14072834
Replace her with perhaps Cygnis, or Laressa/Issa as our new consort (and mindbroken slave)?

>>14072833
It's been archived.
>>14072828
She is a TRAITOR. Unwilling traitor who most likely was forced to betray us. But traitor is traitor and traitors (atleast those who don't betray others to us) are punished like traitors deserve.

I think that before we go charging into a trap that has, no doubt, Scinnari's intimate knowledge of our abilities planned for we should get some help. Cygnis is out, clearly. We would have to explain way too much. No, the help I am thinking we should get is Seffy.

Hear me out now! We could teleport over there VERY quickly and demand an audience. Ask to be left alone, reveal ourselves, and then say we need her help and would be willing to pay handsomely... in addition to being a strong ally in the future should she need it herself. She will probably agree, though it might be painful to pay what she asks.

Then we teleport in with TWO dragons, one VERY experienced at combat. Scinnari, for all her planning for our tricks, would never ever expect us to do this. We have to do something that she would never expect, and with her privvy to almost everything we have this is our best shot.

>>14072839
Actually, a few things occur to me- We weren't there when she started to break. Scinnari could have just grabbed Azyra and teleported as soon as she hatched. Instead, Scinnari called us in, and gave us enough time to give Azyra the ring and necklace. Perhaps she was helping as much as her orders allowed? If so, and we can break her free of her superiors, then that seems like a good course of action. If we can't, of course, she'll have to be dealt with. She should understand, she would still pose a threat to Azyra, and Erinyes are supposed to be good parents, after all.

>>14072879
>We weren't there when she started to break
When Azyra started to break out of her egg, I mean.

>>14072875

Why stop at Seffy? I'm actually wondering if we should call in ALL our favours and (potential and otherwise) allies. This is our daughter. We're not going to go after her, we're going to go and GET her. She's coming home with us.

>>14072879
I am thinking that she allowed all that tracking gear and such to be put on. But then why cry?

I think that her orders might not have involved the child at all. Knowing how protective the Erinyes are it's likely they wouldn't even ask her to do that, and there are probably laws regarding it. No, I think that her task might instead be to lure us in. After all, what is a child to the hells? Almost nothing, and the hells hate the binder anyway. But a red dragon... now that's a prize. If we go charging in there without preparing any shocks of our own then we could be in trouble.

>>14072899
I don't see how we could bring Cygnis in on this. We could try to get help from Tashz, but I doubt we will have more than a very small window to track our daughter before she's lost for good. They know our magical abilities, after all. They know them very well.

Seffy brings the most punch for the least hassle to the table. Bringing her and using a Farrandras wish should be enough.

>turn off scinnari's teleporting priveledges
>use second wish to wish this event never happened.

problem solved.

>>14072914
Oh, not Cygnis. That would be serious trouble, considering that it would require us to either reveal ourselves as red (not gonna happen) or avoid our dragon form (not gonna happen if we're going into the combat we probably will be). And we'd have to deal with conflicting covers and identities either way, since Cygnis doesn't know us as Varian Prestor.

>>14072900
Why cry? Gee, because she's betraying us right in front of us, at an incredibly sensitive moment, after we've had an agreement in place to be honest with one another and she's still lied to us directly when we asked her about devil-related plots involving our child, etc etc. I mean, I doubt she had a choice, but we are a red, and they aren't exactly known for being understanding, even if we are unusually... stable, so she's probably thinking she's just lost her place she's held for the past few decades.

That said, I agree that it being a trap to lure us in is quite possible, though I doubt that Azyra would be let go even if she's not the main target. We need to do some very careful scrying before we jump in, and possibly use a wish.

>>14072781

"Now, I am nothing if not reasonable. In recognition of your many years of service to me, I'm not going to skin you alive.

Instead, I have a task for you. You will remain here in this cell, and while you are here there is something I want you to think about. I want you to remember that every minute you are here is another minute of our daughter's life gone by. Every day you are here is another day she will spend without you. Every year you are here is another year that will dull what few memories she has of you. Every century you are here is another century closer to her dying, having never known you. Our daughter's entire life will come and go, and you will miss all of it. By the time you are free she will be gone, forever beyond your reach.

Ponder that for me, won't you? I doubt I will have much time to think on it. After all, I have a daughter to raise."

>>14073218
No no no. Replace
>After all, I have a daughter to raise."
with
>After all, I have children to raise."

>alurat STRICTLY
Um, I'm not sure what you want us to do here, captcha. Is this "Alurat" a parenting technique, or a torture for captives, or...?

Well.

Fuck.

Cygnis can wait. (I don't know why we're still concerned with her aside from a pair of eyes in freeport). We have a daughter to find.

>>14073690
Well of course she can wait.
But a good reason to still be concerned with her, assuming Scinnari turns out to have willingly betrayed us (ie, not just "well, you couldn't help it and I can't break you free, so I'll kill you" but "you sneaky bitch, you've horribly betrayed my trust, I'm going to torment you now") is that we can then corrupt Cygnis (either through breaking her or through some kind of One Ring-style mindfuckery item that erodes her morals and leaves her open for us to convince her that we're the only good thing in her life and everyone else she's ever known or loved has left/betrayed her (What we don't tell her: we killed several of them. Trollface.jpg), either way bringing her firmly under our control), then let Scinnari know she's been replaced. By a Gold. Yes, a Red would rather have a Gold for a breeding partner than her. Oh, and she'll never get to talk to her daughter again (though maybe we'd show her a few snatches of what she is missing. Maybe if she reveals some info on her superiors, we give her a few minutes watching her daughter, though no contact, for instance.

>>14072930
This is excellent. There are actually spells that will turn back the clock for the caster; a Wish should be able to handle it. If we can use it within the next fifteen seconds or so.

>>14074135
Yeah, though... We would need to be able to stop it from just happening again, plus they may well have a backup plan. Could work, though.

Just finished reading this in the morning. Reaction?

>>FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

I really hate to use a wish to undo potential plot like that, seems really cheesy but also extremely practical. The other option of chasing her down sucks.

>>14074135
>>14074340
Oh shit, I had forgotten about that aspect of wish.

Yeah, as long as we use it before any real amount of time elapses we can pull a "NO, THE FUCK YOU DIDN'T" out of this. Snap backwards a minute or two at this point and we can forcefully put the amulet on our daughter before Scinnari ever touches her and dimensional anchor Scinnari herself before she can go anywhere.

Then a long, long conversation will happen.

>>14074135
Remember that Wishes must be worded VERY carefully otherwise the universe will buttfuck us if we use it.

>>14074866
Yes, but I assume that with our rather high intelligence and wisdom scores we can handle it.

Reality-breaking magic: For when simply nothing else gets the job done.

You know, I have to wonder what Scinnari was thinking. She knows how brutal and cunning we can be. She knows how badly we took the entire Asha fiasco, and that our punishments are anything but light for betrayal. And lastly, I somehow feel positive she could have managed some way to inform us of this despite any rules placed on her had she really desired to do so. There is /always/ a way to get around rules.

She had to know that by doing this she was going to piss us off so very much that not even retreating to the ninth layer and personal protection of Asmodaeus would stop us. So that means that if she knew it, she was planning for it. The only question is if she was planning for it to off us or planning for it some other way.

Wish rewind at this point seems the best course of action. If that fails we then call on anything we can. Seffy, see if the Binder can supercharge us (yeah yeah, but we have time to deal with that situation), we could even use Cygnis if all else fails. She trusts Cibach after all, we might be able to get her to blindly jump into a fight with a promise that we can't tell her why, just that we need her help desperately. Call in that saving the life favor she owes us, golds take that stuff seriously.

>>14072937
Reading over our chat with Scinnari before, we should also use the ring to tell our daughter that, no matter what, she is not to sign anything or agree to anything. Even if it's mommy who tells her to. Trust daddy, daddy loves you, ect. ect.

I just finished reading what happened.

I'm leery of using the Wish to turn back time; if this plot was in motion for as long as it appears to have been, then our enemy likely knows that we have Wishes available to us. I doubt they would have failed to come up with a contingency plan.

Also, pic related.

>go to bed during broken 4chan
>wake up, read thread
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

I say pull all the fucking stops. Seffy first, Cygnis second (we could tell her that that dragon that helped us free her the first time has come to collect on favours due and that we are unable to respond and are calling on favours due from her. Problem will of course be Scinnari but FUCK THAT), Lizardmen fanatics... Let's go on a crusade.

If all else fails, I figure that a 5000+ year old dragon would be more than a match for the daughter of Asmodeus...

>>14075098
This plot does not seem to have actually been in motion for all that long. Not too long ago she was actively worrying about the child's public face in Mza, and other such completely mundane things that wouldn't matter if she was planning to steal her all along.

No, this looks like something much more recent. Likely since the delivery. Hopefully this means that we won't need to involve the others and can just pull a NOX. If that fails we still have incandescent fury to fuel our mystical powers personally, plus a host of allies to call upon.

We can probably get Seffy in via alliance, revelation, bribery, or whatever. Cygnis as well. All we will have to do for Cygnis is tell her that we need her help to save an innocent child abducted by devils. Totally true. Tell her that we have called in favors from two other dragons, both Reds, and to please be aware of that and don't fight them, they are also working to save the child. This absolute moral imperative combined with us cashing in the favor for saving her life should get her on board.

If we really need to we can call upon Tiamat and tell her that in exchange for us ruling openly as a dragon we would like for her to throw a monkey wrench into things on the hells-side. Finally, if all else fails we can try to contact the Binder and swear that we will aid her if she aids us now. Of course, that leaves out the fact that we would also work against her still, completely invalidating all the aid. But we don't tell her that.

my reaction.

The many-bound said he didn't want to be freed, didn't he? See if we can't convince him otherwise. Tell him about how great the surface is, all that. Then offer to cut him loose in exchange for helping us out maybe?

I'm assuming that our family is being kept by Scinnari's superior, who may or may not be in the Infernal Palace. So:

Plans on storming the Infernal Palace. GO.

>horrible event occurs
>objective is hidden and probably well-guarded
>we must go and collect allies before launching a suicide mission

I fucking love Mass Effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYzYrMHWZ2s&feature=related

This, but with dragons and devils.

>>14075429
I don't think we need to even THINK about releasing the Many-Bound unless they've somehow spirited her away to Malboge in under a minute.

In which case...

SPLIT YOUR LUNGS WITH BLOOD AND THUNDER!

CRACK YOUR BACKS AND BREAK YOUR OARS, MEN IF YOU WISH TO PREVAIL.

>>14075206
Come, let's not do anything rash.
We must approach this in a calm and relentless manner, to ensure that our daughter is returned to us unharmed, that Scinnari is made ours, and the fools who thought that they could handle antagonizing us are made to regret ever thinking of such folly before we rend their very souls into oblivion.

Seffie, I can see as a useful hireling. But Cygnis should be kept well away from this.
As for the Many-Bound, while I would love to free him so he could take out 5,000 years of pent-up rage on our foes, the magics required to free him would take far too long.

First and foremost, I believe we must contact our daughter through the ring and warn her to not agree to anything, and we must find her current location.

On the subject of using the wish: Don't devils have wishes? Aren't wishes often prime ingredients in sealing soul pacts? Ultimate magical power, or to (hehe,) save your daughter in exchange for your soul?

No, don't look at me like that, I'm just saying that they may have wishes to counter ours, though ideally they wouldn't consider it worth it.

My thoughts:

Seffy: Really? Get her help? Are you crazy? Wait.... it might just be crazy enough to work. She currently shouldn't know we've been actively opposing her, and she is supposed to be quite the combat badass (And presumably has experience with fighting people immune to fire, if only adventurers)

Cygnis: While devil-smiting and saving an innocent little girl will probably appeal to her, it will be really, REALLY goddamn hard to explain. Seriously, how do we do it?

Maybe she trusts us enough that we could get her to assist us. But it would start ringing alarm bells in her mind, without a doubt.

Lezzy: I don't think we have any favors there to call in. Maybe we could hire them? They're pretty mercenary, as I understand it, but... Well, I'm skeptical.

Other: We met that bronze down south. Didn't seem like a bro, but seemed decent enough- Don't think he seriously would help us, and we CAN'T explain anything to his satisfaction, but "save the innocent little girl stolen by the devils" is a classic Good Guy quest.

Final thoughts: If we use enough Wishes from our Dao, doesn't that free him? Quite possibly, undoing all the things he's done for us in the process? I want us to REALLY leery of using any wishes... 'I'M FREE, LOL! EVERYTHING I'VE DONE FOR YOU IS CANCELED. LATER SUCKERS.' seems like a probable and bad outcome.

http://instantbutton.me/buttons/fus_ro_dah_20110227001225.html

I felt this was appropriate.

>>14075557
Eh, really, it was a bad idea in general for them to try and steal the daughter of someone who could even think about releasing world-destroying beings that can stand as equal with the gods.

I mean, what did THAT board meeting sound like?

Pit Fiend 1: "So, alright. Here at Devil Inc. we are failing to meet our quota for pissing off the few beings in the universe who can play with powers capable of harming us. What's on the menu?"

Pit Fiend 2: "Well sir, see, we just got a report from one of our field agents. Apparently she's going to have the child of someone directly linked to a being who was able to stare down both the gods and the hells at the same time. How does that sound?"

1: "Brilliant! I wonder if we can provoke him into packing our shit in by releasing ancient horrors best left sealed?"

2: "It's a distinct possibility sir, from our estimates his power has been growing exponentially."

1: "Great! Get on that. Be sure to try and use the mother of his child to piss him off as badly as possible. We wouldn't want to go through all this trouble and /not/ get assaulted by a cosmos-raping being of horrific power."

2: "On it sir!"

>>14075592
>But Cygnis should be kept well away from this.
fuck that. Cygnis < Azyra

Step One: Gather Allies
Step Two: CRUSADE
Step Three: Bind Scinnari
We will not remove her fully from Azyra's life, that would not be fair to Azyra, but any and all free movement privileges are revoked. Bind her to an onyx, she will be a literal jewel in our collection

Should step 2 fail: point out to Many Bound that hell will probably have literal tonnes of loot, then break his bonds.

>>14075641
Amusing as that scene is, I suddenly have a dreaded feeling that we are about to get ourselves involved in planar, or at least infernal politics, whether we want to or not.

Oh boy.

>>14075617
No, they don't. Well, I mean, nobody below the Archdukes had a ready supply of wishes. Not even Pit Fiends have access to that kind of punch. Wish is some serious shit.

The power comes from the infernal damned souls they harvest and is supplied by reality itself in accordance with the Pact Primeval.

Also, yes, traditionally if we use all three wishes he is free. But also traditionally they are fulfilled to the user's specifications without all the shitty caveats that doing them yourself would do, nor do the genies attempt to cancel out the wishes afterward. That's just asking to be re-bound for eternity. They grant the wishes for freedom, after all.

Might be good to find out how far the hierarchy this plan has been executed in the first place. We may not be in over our heads that much. I recall an earlier thread where the hells didn't care for the binder running around binding souls since it disrupted their activities. Maybe making such an agreement to get our daughter back for a limitation on our activities in that regard may be a smart idea?

>>14075641
Maybe they kidnapped our daughter as a means to manipulate us IN ORDER TO release said horrors?

Maybe our aid is necessary to resurrect the Binder, and she's been pulling strings down in the hells?

>>14075722
Hopefully we only are fighting a minor noble of hell. I mean, that's still quite a fight but she's not even a Pit Fiend, and her resources would hardly be enough to stop us if we brought out the big guns.

>>14075722
fuck that, that is not how we do business.
If they had come to us with a deal that put a cap on our soul bindings I would have considered it.

Azaladon does not negotiate with hostagetakers. He kills them or binds them in eternal torment.

>>14075762
The hells absolutely hate the binder, though. And the binder hates the many-bound, which is the only one we can probably release at this point.

True, let me rephrase it then. We kick the shit out the immediate superior who thought of the plan and then make a deal with their superior for causing them to lose one of their subordinates.

Also on finding out what's happening, wasn't their another devil Scinnari ran into in the recent past associated with her hierarchy? Maybe that demon is still around where she found them?

>>14075617
>Cygnis: While devil-smiting and saving an innocent little girl will probably appeal to her, it will be really, REALLY goddamn hard to explain. Seriously, how do we do it?

Cibach was an adventurer known to take and give favours in exchange for favours owed.

Azaladon, the dragon that aided us in saving her from the cult, took Scinnari off our hands and now calls upon us for a favour. Unfortunately we are unable to respond in a timely manner due to our investigation in the cult so we ask her to fill in for us. A favour repaid or gained from us and a favour owed by Azaladon.

Owing a favour to Cygnis is a small price to pay fro her aid in this and it will give us a chance to interact with her in dragon form, see how she reacts to a friendly Red.

I see there's some talk of releasing the many bound.

Think for a minute, he's a great deal stronger than us, he's also a great deal bigger than us. We know nothing of his motives, save for his greed.

That may or may not include several things that could be of some great importance to us. However, he could simply aim to kill us just for knowing as much as we do. It's not safe to use tools or cronies that are stronger than us.

Especially when we know so very little about the tool in question. There's also the risk of his will being dull after 5000 years, and the binder using him the second we take him outside that vault.

This isn't guaranteed or anything, but think more carefully about this whole thing, okay?

>>14075871
I think everyone here agrees it's an absolute last resort if we are outmatched in every other way.

By by damn, if we have to shatter the world itself to get our daughter (and maybe Scinnari) back then we will. One way or another by the end of next thread this situation will be resolved. Either QUEST OVER or we have the girls back.

>>14075871
Well, it's the nuclear option.
Should the crusade fail, we go MAD on the world.

It's an absolute last resort but I prefer it to negotiation with the hells.
Let the world burn, the flames won't singe me.

>>14075871
Appeal to his greed. In exchange for helping us free our consort and daughter, we'll release him from his bonds AND let him keep all the loot from a lady of Malbolge.

That's gotta be a lot of loot.

Speaking of Glasya, maybe we should be considering what on earth she wants with the girl? For all we know, this is some elaborate setup to get acquainted with her son-in-law and by using him to off some disloyal middle-management. Or something. Fookin' infernal plots!

>>14075935
Problem is, what's to stop him from taking everything we have after? We just blatantly showed we aren't capable of defeating the threats he can.

No, if we release him we will probably be forced into a subservient role, giving him everything we have and acting as his right hand as he reorients himself in this new 5000 year older world. Or die. Either way, it's bad... but better than letting the hells get away with this.

>>14075970
I really doubt Galsya herself is involved here. I mean, that's way too over the top even for the kind of stuff WD likes to throw at us. An archduchess would be a literal force of nature and railroad plot device. We could do nothing other than spit into the wind and end the quest out of spite by attacking her.

Without it being a shouting match, what's everyone's general opinion on what should be done with Scinnari?

I mean, no matter what she did betray us. By orders or what have you, it was still done. There's not likely ever to be any trust there again, no matter how well things may add up becuase who knows when it would just be undermined again.

I know a lot of people are waiting for more information before passing judgment. But given the chance she could spin whatever story she'd like to to make herself like redeemable.

Anyhow, just a show of hands, if you would.
And for the record, I'm with the rip and tear camp. Personal insult, and all that..

>>14076009
Seconding RIP AND TEAR

>>14076009
She served us faithfully for twenty years. She's the mother of our child. And she seems broken up by the idea of this act of betrayal. I say that she should at leat be given the benefit of the doubt. Who knows? Perhaps some sorcerer learned her true name and compelled her to act against us- it's not like a demon to be so... chaotic.

>>14076009
We could put her in a Zone of Truth (or some similar spell) and question her.

She was so happy about the child, but only got upset near the hatching. My guess is a more powerful devil has coerced her into this somehow. I don't think she's a willing traitor. If this is the case, I would be forgiving. After all, our daughter would hate us if we punished her mother too harshly.

If she manipulated us from day 1, then rip and tear.

>>14076009
>>14076041
Rip and tear will just banish her to the hells for/in a hundred years. Pointless.

If we're going to NEVER FORGIVE, NEVER FORGET, we ought to end up imprisoning her somewhere in punishment. Possibly with live-feed as her daughter slowly forgets her, and we replace her.

>>14076057
You mean devil. It's exactly like a demon to be chaotic.

>>14076009
I really don't know. I want to pardon her because of the fact that she likely /could not/ go against the wishes of her infernal masters. But I temper that with the niggling knowledge that says if she had really wanted to she could have found some way to get around it and warn us.

It's theoretically possible she did all she could by telling us of "possible" defenses with the ring and amulet, then letting us put the ring on our daughter before teleporting away. Really, what it comes down to is if she has prepared her devil masters to withstand us with all of her knowledge. If she has held back and turns on them during the fight, well, I could see a pardon and possible rebuilding of trust. She did everything she was physically capable of to resist it in that situation.

Anything short of that, however, merits some serious punishment the likes of which she probably has a sick feeling in the pit of her stomach about already. She knows how we reacted to Asha, and we specifically said that the only reason we would turn against and replace her is betrayal.

>>14076009
If she was forced: (relative) painless death.
If she betrayed us willingly: torture to death.

I like the idea of leaving her in the exact same position the Many Bound is in. Save for the fact that is should be MUCH harder to find and enter. Stop any and all forms of travel into her vault and let the entire universe forget she even existed.

>>14076084
>>14076009
I thought devils were lawful and demons were chaotic?

Ah Dragonquest- so blood thirsty and so quick to avenge a slight to imaginary honor above all else.

Remember, if her masters used her true name there would have been no way for her to do anything other than passively try and make things easier for us. True names force that level of obedience. This whole situation looks like she did everything she possibly could to help us track them both down and retrieve them.

It could, of course, be that ol' devilish playing both sides of the field strategy. Judgement is reserved until after we see the overall situation, but I'm of a mind to spare her if it turns out she couldn't do anything about it. It's not a trust issue then so much as a "Give me your true name so this never happens again, if you trust me."

>>14076009
I would be rip and tear if it was not for Azyra. She deserves a chance to know her mother.

No longer the crowning jewel of our hoard, no more special privileges, true name gettan, bound in some trinket and added to hoard, etc...

>>14076111
You are correct. Devils are lawful evil, demons chaotic evil.

Scinnari is an Erinyes, which is a type of devil.

>>14076082
I thought killing an outsider on their own plane killed them permanently.

>>14072585
We will tear down the very walls of hell to reclaim our daughter.

WD hasn't posted in a while. I assume the thread is over?

rolled 54 = 54

Some preparations for the trip ahead.
A. Get Seffy in on this.
B. Use Farrandas to see what his wishes can do in terms of reversing this foreseen catastrophe.
C. If it can't be outright fixed, see if he can wish up an item that basically says, "Any planar creature that is in range of this item acts as if it is bound to a plane. Therefore making it so that if said planar creature dies in range of said item, it dies permanently....."
This is the most important one to me. When we teleport in, MURDER, RIP N TEAR a few devils they will realize that they are ACTUALLY dieing permanently. This way, they know we mean business.
D. This should probably be A. Contact our daughter and tell her not to agree to ANY of their Infernal Damned offers or requests, they are most likely trying to pact her to use her as leverage for her.
E. Bring all of our big gun weapons, items, mentality, and help. This includes Seffy or Cygnis, one or the other, Asha is still a decent mid level adventurer, that one wizard that lives on our island would be useful too if we can convince him, I also wonder about seeing to it if we can reach and hire on those two blue dragons or perhaps see if the Ex-Sultan can pull some strings appealing to the fact we are trying to save our daughter like we did his.
F. Once we do this, we go in guns blazing. If all goes well, we will have 4 dragons, all around our age that are all powerful enough to rip through at least a few pit fiends each with a bit of difficulty. Also the fact of the matter is that we will have an item that will make devils second guess whether or not to fuck with us.
G. ALSO, at the moment, I can see that Tiamat has no beef with us and vice-versa, unless of course Tiamat is the one who arranged this. See if we can't contact her to see if she can get this resolved. Obviously this won't come cheap, but this is the possibly the easiest way to do it.

This
Shit
Just
Got
Real

>>14076199
Yeah, but that would require chasing her to the hells, and I think, if we're invading the location of freakin' evil, we're already somewhat screwed.

Either way, she's probably beyond any redemption. At all. Because we can't be sure that she won't do it again, or is totally free from all superior's control.

One option might be to kill her on the Prime and banish her- Azyra would have a mother, she would even be able to write or visit her, but Scinnari would have no capacity to directly meddle in our or Azyra's life.

>>14076342
see
>>14072572
He always uses that image as his last post

>>14076344
We should probably get Cygnis before we get Sef. Sef is probably going to try to stab us in the back, or at the very least take this as a sign of weakness and milk us for all we're worth.

And, I think, the best way to rectify this situation in the future is to learn Scinnari's true name

>>14076150
I'm in agreement with this poster.

If it was a matter of True Names, then disobedience is impossible.
But I also agree that for this, Scinnari's special place in our hoard, and all of her special privileges are revoked. Not even as a punishment; if someone has her True Name, unless we get it ourselves and kill permanently anyone else who knows it, she is a major security risk.

Can't we just use a wish?

>>14076344
Good ideas all around, but how do we get the other dragons' aid? Cygnis might, MIGHT take it up as a favor owed. We'd be indebted to everyone else. Seffy would probably demand our assistance/loyalty to her "empire".

If she was completely unable to do anything more than she did the has earned forgiveness. I don't want to be lolevil and punish her for something she did everything she possibly could to stop.

BUT if one of her superiors has her true name then, even if we get it, the most recent command given with a true name is the one that takes precedence. Which means that unless we are the only one who knows her true name then she is a security risk.

If she was bound only by the devilish hierarchy and still did whatever she could to resist then she likewise has forgiveness, and she retains her full status provided we get her true name to keep this from ever happening again. Or, perhaps, a binding agreement from the hells that recognized Scinnari as ours and not to be meddled with while we yet live. I would approve either one.

So it goes like this:

Unforgiven: Complicity or active participation.

Forgiven: True name.

Forgiven and reinstated in our good graces: Bound by devilish laws and relinquishes her true name to us as a sign of trust, sorrow, and security.

rolled 100 = 100

>>14076415
Seffy would want our assistance in expanding, after all, she DID just have her expansion grind to a halt. Say we will assist in her taking the United Cities(errr whatever it's called) and it will be hers instead of us taking a cut like we normally would demand.

>>14076458
If we can I would prefer to settle it with the following methods, in this order:

1. Personal skill and resources.
2. Wishes.
3. Cygnis.
4. Seffy.
5. Tiamat
6. Binder
7. Twice-Bound (Nuclear option)

>>14076382
>second
she will be our bird of paradise in a gilded cage, but a cage nonetheless

>>14076449
Since it's a custom universe true names could work differently. We need to wait and see how they work before deciding that.

In general I agree with you though. We obviously can't trust her as it is, even if it's not her fault. If she wants the position she formerly occupied we need a way to have that trust again.

>>14076458
If we're any indication for how a red dragon bargains from a position of strength, she'll probably demand our kingdom and a yearly tithe on top.

>>14076513
The only way she can regain our trust would be to give us her true name and for nobody (or relatively nobody, such as nobody who gives a shit about her) to know it. Sad but openness and complete trust are needed for her to be as deep in our planning as she had been.

>>14076526
If she asks too much we can say no. We have other methods that won't cost our kingdom.

rolled 24 = 24

>>14076526
Ah, but we also bargain within reason. We might be a red dragon, but that is why such a demand would be ridiculous. We may "love" our daughter, but our Greed, with a capital G, is kind of outweighing that in that regard. Besides, we will make the expansion thing as the counter offer and she will probably accept with maybe one ore two added on things. If anything, this bargain should go something similar to the dwarf adamantium agreement we had.

It occurs to me that WD utterly crushed any sort of waifu plot with Scinnari by doing this, forever. If we can't trust her she can't be a waifu.

Like
>>14076548
said, the only way we could ever trust her again after this is to have a complete and utter hold on her that a TN gives.

>>14076616
Or to buy her off of the hells.

>>14076616
Well we still have Asha. And Cygnis. And that one princess. Maybe we can get one of them fill the gap for Scinnari.

>>14076647
Eh, he is sort of forcing us to reevaluate our plans with Cygnis if we want a reliable waifu. Scinnari was perfect, except for the devil thing. Sadly it worked out like this. I hope against hope that this is fixable, but I'm not betting on it. Azaladon is a practical dragon, and while he may <3 his Scinnari he needs trust in a mate.

rolled 56 = 56

>>14076647
Asha....too oooold
Cygnis.....Gold Dragon.....yeh no
Princess.....perhaps, then we could use that as a position to rightfully inherit Tashz, just need her brother to die is all......

>>14076647
They will never fill the gap in our heart!

Craaaaawling in our scaaaales, our wouuuunds require elixerrrrrr!

>>14076647
>Well we still have Asha. And Cygnis. And that one princess. Maybe we can get one of them fill the gap for Scinnari.
Asha - Mind-broken slave. Not fit to be a consort.
Cygnis - A Gold. On top of that, will need to be mind-broken first.
Princess - Not even worth entertaining.

Scinnari had value, not just because of her abilities, but because she willingly became a part of our hoard.
When we wreak our vengeance upon those that masterminded this plot, we do it not just because they dared to move against us, or our daughter. No, we do it because they TOUCHED OUR HOARD!

I still think a thing with Cygnis can work. Just don't do any baby eating evil around her and she shouldn't have much of a problem

>>14076753
God, this reminds me of Immortal Regios.

The protagonist is the ultimately powerful overlord of the world. He fell in love with an evilish woman who was also out for power, but eventually at the climax of the entire thing she betrayed him. He defeated her and sealed her away, eternally locked in pitch darkness and locked within her own mind, behind wards even the most powerful beings in the universe can't get past. He then went on to marry a beautiful, kind, capable empress who he never really loved and had a son he never really cared about... and always goes back every so often to sit and stare at his bound love, wishing things had been different.

Uh, spoilers I guess.

>>14076700
I'd say the biggest problem with Cygnis is that she's almost as powerful as us. If we can somehow turn her evil like us, she'd be awesome exotic-waifu material. Or, you know, mindraep, but I've always disliked that as stupid-risky when applied to dragons.

>>14076753
Hahaha OH WOW.

>>14076772
Please, of course it is! After all, our family is part of our hoard. and even beyond that, it's just terrible form to steal someone's children. I mean, come on.

>>14076801
Doh, Immortal Regis. Not Regios. I was confusing the name with Chrome Shelled Regios.

>>14076815
Hrmm. You know, turning Cygnis evil- or at least neutral might be pretty good possibility actually. She seems to be of a more pragmatic predilection then anything else

>>14076801
;_;

I wish to avoid that if at all possible, though it's looking sadly likely.

rolled 33 = 33

Uh guys, all this talk about Cygnis is gonna start "that" again. Also, WD already made it clear that we are unique, that is why our decisions don't resemble that of a typical red dragon. We are different, the only reason why we have the options we have in our moral compass. It is not clear or even remotely mentioned that other dragons are the same. So far, all other dragons have met and filled the quota on their predesignated alignments. Therefore, Cygnis = lawful good. We = pragmatic evil, there fore Cygnis = incompatible.

>>14076801
What can chaaaange the nature of a devil?

>>14076897
The mighty have fallen before....

We should immediately use our wish to "pull a Nox" as a previous poster put it. A wish, even with the attendant loss of the dao, is not a significant cost to us at this point compared to the potential loss of our daughter.

Obviously we cannot trust Scinnari anymore, but if she fails to capture our daughter in the first place we're in a position to forgive her, once we aquire her true name. This incident could in fact be just the opening we need to get that key item.

We should use the wish for a do-over, get to the egg, stand between it and her, and say "I know".

>>14077774
First alter the wards so no teleportation is possible. THEN say "I know."

You guys are weird.
It is obvious that Scinnari didn't really want to do this.

She even let the jewelry to be put on the daughter before they vanished.
Heck, she probably still has her choker on which we can track.

Before setting up grand plans of revenge lets try to get to the bottom of the truth.
Anyone know if she had contact with the Crystal lately? Maybe we can ask it?
Maybe she even deliberately made contact with it so that we can ask it details.

Either way, stay cool, Red, stay cool. You can't say that this comes to you as a total surprise. And in hindsight, you might have invested in total teleportation wards for your lair (even if that meant you couldn't teleport there)

And forget all this talk about Cygnis please. She can't help us, and even if she could, we shouldn't go to her.
How the hell are we gonna explain everything?

>>14078012
Obviously.

But the consensus seems to be that she didn't really oppose it as much as we think she could have, had she felt any real loyalty. Plus, there's the fact that we don't think we can trust her anymore, as this could happen again. At any time.

That said, being a purely reasonable and genre-savvy villain has it's downsides. Why not keep her? Obviously, we won't be keeping her as a lieutenant, nor will we be keeping her as your consort-prime, but we can still keep her as the mother of out daughter, powerless but present. (And besides... we might have lingering affection for her. Maybe.)

>>14077941
That seems.. epic, and creates an aura of omniscience we should totally capitalize on. I'm just wondering whether a Wish is worth it; if we can get Azyra back by teleporting and FUCKING. DEVILS. UP. That would be far cheaper and more satisfying.

Plus, it would be a good opportunity to get friendly (no, not FRIENDLY, just friendly) with Seffy, if she thinks we trust her and consider her a valued ally.

Just random thoughts, though.

>>14078337
Better to use a wish while we still can than wait and find out the devils have a trap planned for us, which they probably do.

We can't hold back the hands of the clock forever. Even a wish has limits, despite being as close to epic magic as you can get. Ten minutes, maybe 20 just to really "pull a Nox."

I would like to keep her around and trust her without even needing her true name. The problem is, where would that trust come from? If she really did everything she could have, no true name was involved, and we buy her off from the devil hierarchy then I could see it. It's possible they just gave her specific enough binding commands (they are old and have been doing this for a long time after all) that even without a TN she was completely locked out from telling us. It could be that slipping us the hints about what kind of things we could protect from, calling us to be present for the hatching and slip on the ring, and wearing her collar would be the most she could do. She did seem nervous when we were asking her about how to prevent them from abducting her, much like she seemed nervous when telling us (indirectly, bending the rules) who her superiors were. Se could easily have been bending them at that point too.

I think we should rewind as far as we can and teleport in early. Screw with the wards so she can't get out via teleportation. (note, this is not sensed until one tries to teleport from our past experiences) Then afterward we walk into the chamber and sit down with her and talk. Tell her how we care about her and know she will be a good mother, and we've decided to take her as a mate, ect. ect. Really lay on the emotional stuff. See if she tries to confess it some way.

Then if she doesn't we just play it out like we did originally at the hatching. The only difference will be the lack of our confusion and after the final "I'm sorry." a big look of shock or satisfaction on her face depending on her loyalties. It's beautiful.

>>14078337
>But the consensus seems to be that she didn't really oppose it as much as we think she could have, had she felt any real loyalty. Plus, there's the fact that we don't think we can trust her anymore, as this could happen again. At any time.

Well, to be fair, we don't know exactly how much she opposed them or not yet. She /may/ have been still loyal in calling us back before the hatching, or it /could/ have been part of the plot to lure us in. She /may/ have not covered the fact that we have available wish(es?) when talking to her superiors, leading to what seems to be an easy situation for us to resolve, or she may have been forced to mention them and they have a backup plan/a way to deal with wish, or she may have gleefully conspired with them to cover all possibilities (though I personally think this one is unlikely, given she is basically throwing away a position that is very good for her, plus Erinyes are supposed to be dedicated parents). Hell, she may well have been giving us other hints we didn't manage to pick up on, for instance her "work" in the end of the OP and the start of the next one, or the stuff from
>>14069181
>>14070029
>>14070066
So yeah, I'd like more information before we start jumping to conclusions.

Cont.

>>14078648
Arguably, this /could/ be solved with the use of two wishes. (Do we still have two? We started with three and used 1, right? *Not sure*)
Assuming we a) wish for Scinnari's true name (assuming Writer-Dude's setting allows for this, and that true names are powerful enough to be useful here)
and b) Fuck with time,
we could grab her true name, go back to a bit before she jumped out, stop her from teleporting, and start with the true-name assisted interrogation. Depending on what we find, we could then do anything from offing her (in such a way as to not upset our daughter, preferably), imprisoning her for horrible torture, imprisoning her till we can deal with whatever was ordering her about, or (say if some mortal working against us managed to find out her true name, hence the betrayal) ordering her to stay in the volcano while we go dragon form on the foolish meatbag.

>ice broph
Captcha reminds us that we must be cold, hard, efficient, and (for some reason) bro-ish.

>edaycycs peel
It also suggests we find someone with an odd name and flay them. I'm not really sure where it's going with this, tbh.

>>14078544
Yeah, this is the kind of thing I was going for. Hells, if we can do it that way, we may be able to get her to /tell/ us her true name, rather than waste a wish on it. Of course, then we'd need to confirm that it really is her true name, and that this wasn't all planned out (by either her or her superiors) to make us think we have a total grip on her, only to have us betrayed at some later date, or...

Fuck, I hate dealing with devils.
>ConfusedPsyduck.jpg
My paranoia /should/ make it easier, but it just confuses me moar...
*Weeps*

>>14078544
Wow that's exactly what I was thinking of but culdnt put into words. Second

Fuck the devil.

Scinnari gets to exist as a gem around her daughters neck if we are feeling merciful.

As a gem sunk in a lead block at the bottom of some peasant's outhouse otherwise.

>>14079091
If it comes to it, be throrough.

Bake the lead into a brick or shape a stone block around it. Find a chuch under construction, lay it in an inconspicuous location, where it won't be worn by wind and rain. Enjoy eternity in consecrated soil.

I'm also for giving her the...'relative' benefit of the doubt. She was cajoled into doing this, at least it seems so, so tormenting her likely isn't necessary.

However, it's quite evident that whoever is ordering her around places her beyond our trust and control, so...well. We obviously can't have her in any position of power anymore. We'll need to bind/enslave her, or otherwise defang her.

After we get our daughter back, obviously.

>>14079091
>>14079163
Only support this if she actively betrayed us or was complicit in the deal. Then yeah, I could see getting a priest to consecrate some random cell in the middle of nowhere, sticking her soul in a gem, sticking the gem in the cell, then flooding the cell with molten rock and letting it cool.

Talk about "hell" for a devil. We could even dig her up every decade or so and tell her that her how much her daughter loves "mommy" and by mommy I of course mean whoever we replace her with.

>>14079233
If we can pry her loose from the clutches of the hells then she will be effectively defanged without all those harsh mental control aspects. That seems the best plan to me, if we can do it. Second up would be getting her to tell us her true name, followed by just not giving her any important position again.

>>14079290

Yeah, because she's just going to give it to us, isn't she?

And somehow getting her out of hell will...what? Prevent her from following her king/quenn/Lord/Lady's orders? How does that work?

>>14079343
Are you retarded? I mean, really. Do you have any idea of the things of which we speak? Because it seems like you don't.

>>14079290
It pains me, but she knows too much: we need to buy or steal her freedom from the hells or she needs to be permenently killed or imprisoned.

I would love to see her free of the hells and on our side, but we just saw the cost of half measures! This is an all or nothing issue.

>>14079393
Agreed. We somehow win her complete freedom or have to permanently silence her. There's no longer a middle ground. I think we just got our hand forcibly dipped into infernal politics.

Which, sadly, might have been the objective all along.

>>14079370

So in other words you have no answer. You can't tell me how getting her out of hell will stop her from following her orders, and you can't answer me on why she'd just give up her True Name to us either.

The two above me are right; we gotta go at this all or nothing; whether we like it or not. And we don't.

I'm...not advocating the gem-jail though.

A potential solution:

Assuming we can Timewarp back:

Watch Azyra hatch. Get our lovey-dovey on.

Casually cast spell. [Dimensional anchor]. Target Scinnari, if it won't alert her. otherwise just area-interdiction.

Allow her to work herself up to betrayal, and fail to make the escape. Savor her terror.

Use that Soul Trap spell someone else has been touting for a while. Stuff her in a black sapphire or diamond or something. Gift it to Azyra- Her mother is with her, but unable to betray any of us. We can almost certainly count that above all, Scinnari will at least take care of Azyra, and train her to the best of her ability.

Take Azyra to dinner. Apologize for the necessity of what she witnessed. Ask her what she wants for a birthday present.

Good end.
[other option coming]

Alternately, if we can't timetravel, or want to save the wish, I think we can make just as good a showing by:

Get Seffy on board. She's greedy, she's bitchy, but frankly, I think we can trust her not to turn on for the lulz. AND she seems like someone worth having watching our back, if we're going to go mix it up with devils. We reveal ourselves to her privately, request her help, and I think we can just buffalo through with the surprise of our reveal, and the obvious emergency-conditions of the request. She'll probably be doing a double take on us, and re-assessing. She'll agree to come along to check us out, and we'll let her do so for her assistance.


Teleport to devils, rip and tear. Kidnapping little girls is hugely evil. Rip and tear their huge evil.

My personal guess is that they've retreated to Malbolge. If we pursue, let's remind the inhabitants why it's called Dungeons and *Dragons*, not Dungeons and Devils. We are bold as brass, arrogant as hell, and will not back down from anyone up to and including Tiamat herself. Two adult dragons can probably handle anything up to a few pit fiends, and if we do end up against something we can't take (coughcoughGlasyacough), we'll do our best to take it down anyway. Chances are, though, that rapid reaction can successfully pursue our daughter, retrieve her before she's passed into the hands of anyone truly powerful, and escape.


Thinks I'm willing to pay to Seffy: Up to all the gold we have. Seriously, Azyra is far more important. That said, I'd consider up to three hundred thousand gold to be reasonable, obviously with high prices accruing Seffy less favors and good karma from us. Magic; we can provide as much magic as we want. Favors: We can assist her in expanding her empire, or securing what there is.


Thoughts?

>>14079489
No, I'm saying you are stupid and completely clueless as to how the hells work.

If we buy her out of the infernal hierarchy that would be it, she would no longer answer to those masters. Could not, in fact, answer to those masters. Nor could they use her in their schemes.

As for the true name, it's a matter of trust, loyalty, blah blah. There's a good chance that lacking any other option she will, in fact, tell us. Valuable position, lots of power, lots of luxury, daughter, loving dragon husbando, ect. If she doesn't then wow, we wasted a whole ten minutes trying to convince her.

I also agree that it has to be all or nothing. We free her from the commands of the hells or nullify her as a threat. Middle ground time is over.

>>14079290
Well, while I agree that if we can get her away from whoever is manipulating her (the hells, obviously, plus possibly someone knowing her true name. Unlikely, but Tiamat has already told a blue about us, so she seems to be holding a grudge over something. She may have instructed another dragon to find out Scinnari's true name and set this up to set us against the hells and possibly get us wiped out/weakened/forced to ask her for help. Food for thought.) and she didn't willingly betray us, we probably don't need to go all "terrible mind rape" and shit, but I think as it stands, we need to know her true name (assuming we aren't just going to destroy her, say if she did willingly betray us), if only so that we can check in every so often on whether anyone else has tried to command her.

>>14079526

Ohhhhh THAT 'get her out of hell'. I see. Sounds good.

...If we could. And we might not be able to. But still.

>>14079525
>>14079510
That's paying way too much to Seffy. Cygnis would do it for free.

The wish thing has already been covered, but you're being a little extreme in instantly soultrapping her after we lock her down. There's a solid chance we can pursue other options if she has, in fact, been loyal. Which most signs point to, albeit in a restricted sense.

>>14079526

Y'know, you could be less of an asshole and explain things more clearly next time. Because you are and you didn't.

>>14079525
I seriously doubt they have gone back to the hells. It's an enormous investment to get devils into the prime. ENORMOUS.

They wouldn't just go back. No, I'm pretty sure she's still on the prime somewhere. We can find out where via ring or collar.

>>14079525
>If we pursue, let's remind the inhabitants why it's called Dungeons and *Dragons*, not Dungeons and Devils.
>mfw I read this

That said
>We are bold as brass,
We are not Brass. We are Red. Kindly refrain from comparing us to inferior dragons. Particularly metallics.

>>14079526
This. Plus,
>As for the true name, it's a matter of trust, loyalty, blah blah.
>Valuable position, lots of power, lots of luxury, daughter, loving dragon husbando, ect. If she doesn't then wow, we wasted a whole ten minutes trying to convince her.
>lots of luxury, daughter, loving dragon husbando,
>daughter
>Erinyes
Very important.
Though, as mentioned before, we need to make sure that it actually is her true name she tells us, not just giving us a name she uses sometimes or something. Now, depending on the specifics of the setting, giving a fake "True Name" may be impossible, particularly since we can scry and shit, but we really, really do /not/ want to take any chances. But then again, we should know this shit in-character, so yeah.

>>14079525
>She'll agree to come along to check us out
Because the great Azaladon is the handsomest of dragons.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

>>14079558
Nah... Well, Cygnis would, but I think it might give her enough information to make our planned date, mindrape, enslave affair much more difficult. Plus, you know, Seffy has demonstrated her ability to curb stomp armies; Cygnis is... a sort of mediocre cleric-type. Maybe. She could have just been a librarian. Even if we have to pay ludicrous amounts (which we may be able to retrieve via backstab), I'd prefer to have Seffy covering us. (I swear that wasn't deliberate.)

I had a vile though. A dastardly, villainous, horrendously evil thought. If we could convince Cygnis to go with us... we could trade her for our daughter. I don't have the image, but the lawful evil poster of "I think I sold a woman, once."? Yeah....

>>14079688
If all we want is our daughter back we can use a wish to snatch her from anywhere she is, provided we know her and her name. Which is sort of a given. It's stated right there in the spell descrip.

No, the only way I can see this deal going down is time-rewind and us replaying that moment with a few alterations, like making all our wardings in our lair completely impervious to teleportation beforehand. Then shit will get real and we can get to the bottom of what has been going on, as we will be holding the cards.

>>14079581
She was summoned there by a wizard in the first place, and if they are still on the prime, they will be far less... safe, for want of a better word (maybe secure? Well, we certainly aren't going to harm Azyra, so safe isn't quite right, but you get my point, I hope) from an angry red than they would be back in the hells.
Plus, they may be hoping to get Azyra to make a pact, as Scinnari suggested. Ugh.

>>14079664
I was suggesting a "Fuck you. You want to stop me? Bring it, hellspawn." attitude, not comparing us to a Brass dragon. I think you knew that.

>>14079558
>>14079581
Alright, any better ideas on what would be a reasonable limit for what we'll concede to Seffy to back us up in this venture? As I suggested, I think she'll do it mostly out of her curiosity.

I'd consider a hundred thousand gold to be the minimum fee she'll demand before I get suspicious. Maybe fifty thousand, if she seems to be planning to charge us at a later date. Like above, though, if she's willing to do it for relatively cheap, I think we owe her some good will/favors, and should adjust her standing in our books appropriately.

>>14079784
How about we ask first. She might ask much less than we think once she knows we are a fellow red. Throwing out prices like that is really just pie-in-the-sky.

Ideally we will never need to recruit her, but yeah. Also, Cygnis might be much less experienced in fighting but she's still a dragon.

Rewinding time is Expensive but far safer and, most importanly, involves the least risk for our daughter.

Once we're bak in place and we plug the teleport holes though, can we cast a spell to scry out where Scinnari was trying to go?

If we're gonna show up and rape face, it's better to leave the daughter at home. We find out the location, trap Scinnari in a gem, scry the location, and land on them like the proverbial ton of bricks.

Our place is HEAVLY warded against scrying, so they won't know when exactly to expect her. So we have time to seal Scinnari away (temporarily, maybe) and gather all our assasins, and scry on the target quickly.

For everyone prepared to use Seffy for our own ends, several things to consider:

1. We're blowing the sorcerer lord card the minute we reveal ourselves, she has no sense of subtlety and we may as well consider that we are out in the open the minute we do this.
2. We also just revealed the easiest way to influence us or gain an advantage over us in any situation based on the way we're going to react to this abduction.
3. If she lives through the events....we're totally going to be sleeping with her within the next hundred years. Don't know how or why, it'll just happen.

>>14079782
Getting our daughter back is no problem. Getting Scinnari back to do some 'splainin, as well as talking to her superiors and getting this shit called off. Now THAT is going to be the real trick. The 10-minute rewind lets us do that. Plus, can you think of any better way to troll than a slight draconic grin and "Going somewhere, love?" after she says she's sorry and fails to teleport.

Plus, it just enhances us in her eyes. We seem almost omniscient. We not only knew about the plot but found out in a way that she never even suspected! Let it go without saying that we never bring up we used a wish to back up time.

>>14079884
Why would we trap her in a gem, seal her away, or any of that? If we are bargaining for her purchase I honestly would want someone who both knows infernal law and has a vested interest in making the purchase succeed with us. She can be bound in other ways. Hell, she might not even need to be bound at all. Once the plan fails we probably can just calmly ask her to arrange a meeting with whoever is in charge.

Devils are orderly creatures. When the plan fails and they get a request to meet on neutral ground where we can discuss the matter they will take it.

>>14079997
>>14079884
Got it!

Bind Scinnari into gem.

Hide gem inside tome labeled 'Expert's Guide on Infernal Law'.

Keep on a desk in our office.

You know you want to.

>>14080052
Cute, but no. Scinnari is better soft and fleshy, as strange as that sounds for a red. If we do have to take measure like this it would be pretty tragic.

This seems like the perfect time to let our rage and go terrorize small villages to blow off some steam...if we didn't already control everything within 25 miles...

>>14080231
greater teleport does wonders for that...
I've found that you need something that can take a proper beating to release aggression on though. Weak things just tend to make you frustrated and unsatisfied

>>14079784
Yes, yes, I knew what you meant, I am familiar with the expression. I was just pointing out (indirectly) that that expression, under the circumstances, would be like calling a demon hellspawn, or calling a devil a demon. Though, now I want to slip that into talks with a chromatic sometime in the quest. Hmmm...

>>14079907
>>14079911
>>14079997
Agreed, especially about not mentioning we used the wish for this. No need to show the audience how it's done, after all... And yes, I think we should scy /quickly/ before using the wish, so that we get a better idea of what's going on. Hell, if it /does/ turn out to just be some other dragon Tiamat tipped off, or something like that, we may not even need to use the wish. Though it could be worth it just for the whole "BEHOLD, MY OMNISCIENT AWESOMENESS!" factor.

>>14080052
Must... resist... bad... idea... But... such... good trolling... GYAH!

>>14079997
The problems are these:

It may not even have been the hells. Any caster who siezes one of Scinnari's superiors could have arranged this, so we can't assume it's someone as willing to negotiate in good faith (Ha!) as even the hells. We have other enemies known and unknown.

Whoever did this tried to kidnap our daughter. We shouldn't negotiate with this person. We can negotiate with their superior, if they turn out to even represent the hells. We kill the kidnapper in such a way as to prevent ressurection. That balances the crime of attempting to kidnap our daughter and alows us to negotiate from a position of strength.

If we let them live and attempt to pay them off, we're paying tribute. If we kill the offending party first, we're simply trying to buy something it's turned out we want: Scinnari.

It's no different than if a nation sent a fleet after us: we negotiate AFTER sinking it.

Scinnari has her choker on, and our daughter has the ring on.

Contact the daughter and tell her not to listen to anything anyone tells her, including her mother. Explain things as best we can to a newborn child.

Then we detect their location through the items. Our actions then are determined by their location. If they're on the Prime, then we can use our mortal army to go reclaim our family. That's a perfectly legitimate reason to send out an army in fantasy worlds.

>>14080502
Could be a bit awkward if any of the non-fanatical part of the army see her, though. Still, there's always coverups.
I agree about the possibility this is not organised by the hells. We need to be certain about this. However, the wish still seems like the best way of dealing with things, /after/ we scry on where they are.

Also, we really should have added some "I can teleport you back to me whenever I want to" functionality to the choker/Azyra's stuff.

Come to think of it, we should probably get that for all our high-value agents, it might be handy to be able to extract them in a hurry/gather our forces rapidly in the future. Something to look in on.
Hell, we could even use the wish to do something like that, and trollface as Scinnari/Azyra/anyone nearby is suddenly teleported into the middle of our fanatically loyal army. See how well they anticipate /that/ little move.

Alright. Here's them breaks, updated:

Assuming timetravel:

Scramble for the good Dao. Wish ourselves back in time ten minutes, twenty minutes, whatever. Teleport away, modify our interdiction spell, show up, [daughter hatches, Scinnari tries to abscond, fails.]

"Problem, devil?" (Alternately, "Going somewhere?"). Use Trap the Soul to seal her into a gemstone. (Any votes as to what kind? I was thinking maybe an emerald?). Go out, spend our first day with our daughter, perhaps introduce her to our lizardmen worshipers, maybe even to Mza itself as Lord Prestor's daughter. It should be made clear that NOBODY gets to fuck with her.

Fast forward. We'll chat it up with Scinnari (we imprisoned her, so we should be able to chat with her while she's imprisoned.). If she was doing everything she could to resist her orders, she gets to stay there for a while and stew while we work on freeing her. If she wasn't, if she was complicit and willing (if reluctant), we taunt, torment, and torture her, eventually either taking a field trip to the hells to kill her for good, or sealing her gemstone (or, hell, even out of gemstone,) in solid rock. (If the later, obviously enchanted so that she can't teleport or be summoned.)

Then, we proceed to hunt down her co-conspirators and destroy them. Freakin' DESTROY them. If it was the hells, we brutally execute her superiors, then declare that we will forgive THEIR superiors if they will renounce all claim to Scinnari. Phrase that in a way that doesn't admit that they had any claim to her to begin with.

>>14081277
I dislike waiting any amount of time before wreaking bloody ruin upon our foes. That's a whole day for them to plan an alternate attack or know they've been warned.

No, we need to interrogate Scinnari as soon as she fails to abscond. We then need to immediately move against the perps before they reorganize. Shock and awe will be our biggest asset.

I still vote to try an emotional assault before the hatching (after securing the place) and see if she changes her mind. That alone would prove that we absolutely can't trust her if she changes, and if she doesn't change then it will only dig the emotional well deeper for having her want to help us.

If we can't wish them back, or if we simply wish to save the wish (entirely reasonable, they're valuable.):

IMMEDIATELY start telepathing Azyra. Warn her against full devils, and promise that we'll come to save her. Tell her we love her.

If we're fast, (and with twenty, thirty-something int, we should be fast on our mental feet.), we can communicate before Scinnari removes the ring. Next, contact Scinnari. She's obviously feeling both terrified of us, and guilty as hell. Let's reinforce that, throw her off her game, etc.

Next, crystal ballan'. We scry them so hard, like the fist of the north star. We can also scry Scinnari's collar and Azyra's ring, but those are less likely to pay off; she'll dump those first thing.

Once we locate them (Some devil cult on the Prime, a base or Glasya's court in Malbolge, or some random wizard's tower are the most likely locations.), then we go and get some allies. We're going in there, and we're going to kill some devils. Painfully. (Or wizards, if it wasn't an infernal heist.) Go and get Cygnis and Seffy to help- as previously stated, Seffy ought to be interested in us, (This may lead to, as >>14079907 , lead to hot dickings. That's totally irrelevant at the moment, as currently the end of "Daughter safe" justifies anything, but I would like to point out it could be worse.) And Cygnis should help us based on her trust for Cibach, and we are the, if not totally good, honorable red dragon that assisted Cibach in freeing Cygnis originally. She'll be worried about working with Seffy, (and us,), but she'll come along anyway.

Meaning: We have an adult gold dragon [CR 16, I bet Cygnis has some items or abilities of her own to buff that.], two adult red dragons [CR 15, but Seffy is described as a grade A badass, and our magic ought to make us the same. More like CR20.], and are capable of cub-stomping anything we could reasonably think about going up against in the hells. We could even take down pit fiends easily. And, in a worst-case scenario, it may be possible, as >>14079688 mentioned, sell Cygnis out if our situation seems dire.


this can also double for the plan of attack once we've located Scinnari's masters, assuming we DO use the rewind, and are intent on annihilating all who engineered this betrayal.

Can anyone suggest improvements?

>>14081569
Um, yes. While it is possible, though not certain, that Cygnis will work with Seffy and us, it is far less likely that Seffy will work with Cygnis. Also, having Cygnis along will pretty much break all our plans with her, and bringing Seffy along will either a) let everyone know we are actually a red dragon or b) get us blackmailed. Either way, not good.
If, however, we go the "Scry, then wish, then imprison (at least temporarily) Scinnari, then interrogate" route, we are in a much better position. If we can break Scinnari free of them, we can possibly get useful info for an attack. If we can't, then we've gotten in a scry they don't know about, since we rewound it, plus they won't know for certain what's going on, unless they can penetrate the defences on our lair, in which case we are pretty much fucked anyways. Now, while we may have to call on Cygnis and/or Seffy anyways, that is a really, really bad decision to have to make, and if it comes down to that, we're going to risk being heavily fucked over by those we try to recruit. The last thing we need is to be distracted from trying to deal with whoever is behind this by being mugged by a Gold/exploited by a Red.
Hells, it could /be/ Seffy behind this, Tiamat has already given us away to one Chromatic so far, if she told Seffy "Yeah, that Prestor guy is actually a Red called Azaladon, oh and he's the one working against you" something like this might be the result. I mean, I can't really see another Red, particularly one as... well, dumb as Seffy pulling off something this subtle, but you never know. Hells, she might be being manipulated by something else, for all we know.

>>14081818
How the hell would Seffy get a hold on Scinnari? It's more likely that she's fleeing with the child for its safety than working for someone other than her masters.

I still think it's the hells, but her leaving to protect her daughter from the hells makes more sense than some random person suddenly getting their hands on Scinnari.

>>14081569
sounds good, let's not forget to bring along some of our stronger lizardmen though, footmen might count in the end. We should also check in with the alchemist that lives on Mza, he might have something of use he'd be willing to part with.

I vote we don't use the wish since we're going to go through with the assault anyway. Having Azyra there might even be more beneficial in the long run since she'll learn not to trust anyone but us (and even that trust should be removed before she is fully grown, we want her to be daddy's little girl and that means manipulating and pragmatic)

>>14081818
really doubt that anyone except Scinnari's superiors are behind this, that egg was a quite well-guarded secret. Only we , Scinnari and a few lizardmen knew about it

>>14081887
Dude, we'll be going through the assault, but after we use the wish to prepare for it first. Going in blind is just... ridiculous. Rewind is vital, as is the shock factor of a quick strike after they are unprepared.

>>14081963
yeah, yeah, intel is important and time means having more time to gather allies but wasting a WISH on a tiny time reversal?

plus, this is a great lesson for Azyra.

maybe we could do a longer time reversal and gather allies BEFORE we need them? then come in guns blazing minutes after Scinnari?

The time wish is key, as it puts our DAUGHTER outside of the area of the upcoming battle! The fact that it allows us and a load of assasins and lizardmen to arrive in her place, as a surprise is just a bonus!

We should wish ourselves back a bit then confront Scinnari in our lair, on our terms. Our daughter never needs to leave the lair. She's the primary immediate concern here, at this point Scinnari is very little direct threat to us.

The indirect threat is high though, she could have told whoever is forcing her to act anything, if she's even being forced. We need to scry things and get what information we can from Scinari. We need to put all our minions on high alert for spies or raiders. Finally we need to scry those who are at her destination, and decide how to ruin them.

Most of all, at this point, we need to contain the damage and find out what's going on, so that when we act we act corectly!

>>14081881
>>14081887
I doubt it's anyone but her superiors too, and I doubt Seffy would be capable of pulling this off, but given that we are a... thing... of the Binders, and Tiamat has already fucked with one of our plans by giving info on our identity, the possibility that it is in fact another dragon/a powerful caster in not something we can discard out of hand.
As such, I would not consider it a good idea to start pulling in semi-reliable (if that) "allies" before we know who is behind it (hence the scry before rewind), particularly not one who
a) we have been actively, if subtly working against,
b) has the power to fight us themselves,
c) has ties to a god who has reason to hate/fear us and has revealed info on us in the past, plus
d) probably has the resources to find out Scinnari's True Name if tipped off by Tiamat (you know, what with ruling a kingdom that probably has at least some high level casters, plus being a reasonably powerful sorcerer herself).
Again, I think it doubtful she has anything to do with it, but then anyone who is capable of finding out about our egg while it's hidden in our lair and commanding our consort who knows about many of our operations would probably make it a priority to find out about any of our activities messing with other powers and tip them off to distract us from coming after them with the fury of ten thousand suns, no? So we should probably be a bit cautious about our goings-on in the world even after we deal with this situation.

Cont.

>>14082208
you need to think long-term. It's better if Azyra is there, she's not JUST our princess. We need to raise her strong and smart, showing her first hand just how bad this world can be if you let your guard down is a great start for that.

besides, I highly doubt that Scinnari would let anything really bad happen to her

>>14082293

Oh, and
>that egg was a quite well-guarded secret. Only we , Scinnari and a few lizardmen knew about it
Plus, of course, anyone that noticed the fact that Scinnari was obviously pregnant when she was at the the royalty thing in Tashz. You know, the biggest event in arguably the greatest nation currently in the setting. Given that /at least/ some of the blues there knew we were a dragon... *Cough cough*

>>14082073
Lulwot? The whole /point/ of the time reversal thing is that Scinnari won't be going /anywhere/, except straight to our dungeon, and that whoever is responsible will have no idea we've scried on wherever she teleported to because hey, guess what, for them, we didn't. Muahaha.

>>14082208
YES, THIS! THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT I MEAN!

>>14082296
>besides, I highly doubt that Scinnari would let anything really bad happen to her

You mean, like, getting her kidnapped?

Oh, and sure, we'll need to teach her a lot of shit, show her the bad stuff that happens, all that stuff. Maybe, though, we should let her learn to WALK AND TALK AND SHIT LIKE THAT FIRST? Gee, even some BASIC SELF DEFENCE?

>>14082359
Technically, Erinyes are supposed to be incredibly protective mothers. (As they'd have to be, raising children in the hells.)

Really, if it had been with our permission, it might have been something we'd want to allow, but obviously, we can't let them steal her away.