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  • File : 1294853073.jpg-(74 KB, 494x639, SquatsCover2.jpg)
    74 KB Codex :Squats Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)12:24 No.13494279  
    Since the other thread has reached the length that it's not bumping anymore, I'm creating a new Codex:Squats (fandex) thread.
    For the old thread, it's here (until it scrolls off) >>13480642
    And I think someone has archived it already.
    The basics though are this. /tg/ is throwing around the idea of creating a full on Fandex (codex) for Squats to bring them back from the dead, and to then attribute to Matt Ward.

    Since Matt is known for his blatant fanwankery, we should be able to get away with near ridiculous levels of brokeness of the Squats without raising too many eyebrows. But we're also trying to make the Squats a viable and interesting race to play once more.

    Pic is a mockup of the proposed cover for this fandex.

    Let the Squat fun continue.

    Also, Hey, janitor, we need this stickied to the front page as a project for /tg/.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)12:26 No.13494295
    last posts from the previous thread
    >>13492019We need to find some weaknesses, to make it believable. If its one big fanwank, its going to be a dead give-away.

    >>13492030make sure teh title page says "Written by: Matt Ward"

    I think we have the the problem stated, and then solved in the very next post. If they're fanwanked to hell and back and then we attach Matt Ward's name to it then the people reading it will go "Ohhh, this is more of Matt Ward's shit. That explains the wankery. He just really likes Squats. "

    Seriously though, Toughness 3? Strength 3? For a race that has to be able to live on a Heavy Gravity Planet? Bullpucky! Maybe on their homeworlds they'd be that average , but imagine dropping a imperial guard on a heavy gravity world. Would he be able to function as good as a Squat? Would he be as tough as one? Putting a squat on a normal gravity world would be like dropping you or me on a planet with the gravity of the moon. We'd be ridiculously strong in comparison to whatever lived there, and likely ridiculously tough as well.
    So giving them S 4 and T 4 right off the bat would make perfect sense. Just penalize them in other areas or better yet, give them high points costs to reflect the low numbers squats have. Force them to rely on robots and similar when they want large numbers of troops.

    Make them a "drone" using race.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)12:30 No.13494328
    Oh, and that brought up an interesting point.

    If they resettle on other heavy gravity worlds, then we should have rules for how this affects other forces that fight them on heavy gravity worlds.

    Think about it. Drop a normal human (imperial guard) on a heavy gravity world (say 2gs or more) and he is NOT going to perform well at all. Likewise his BS is going to suffer like hell (all his training previously was in near normal gravity so it'll throw off his aim and expectation for target movement)
    I'd say penalties to BS S T and I, would all be appropriate, including for Marines. They may be tough, but they aren't tougher than gravity.

    Fighting a Squat on his home turf should be extra hard.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)12:31 No.13494340
    T 4 is okay, but I wouldn't give them S 4. Although they might be hard, they are not genetically enhanced super warriors.

    >everybody. Bortimus

    No, captcha, they won't go by the name Bortimus.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:06 No.13494653
    >>13494340 Squats not genetically enhanced.

    Actually, yeah they are. They were genetically modified to withstand and be able to do heavy labor in a heavy gravity environment. The fact that their movement, initiative and so forth suffered as a result would be the penalty. So Strong as a Space Marine? Yeah, I'd say that they would be exactly as strong as a Space marine because not only do they have genetic engineering on their side, they've got at least 20 thousand years of biological adaptation that happened naturally to help them. So super dense bones, super dense optimized musculature. Also, space marines get better weapons skills and the whole know no fear crap as well as better init, speed, and so forth. So I see nothing wrong or illogical with S4 T4 for the basic squat trooper if marines have that.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:08 No.13494663
    Just give them a cost to reflect those stats.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:08 No.13494664
    Squats should not be stronger than Orks.
    >> that guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 01/12/11(Wed)13:12 No.13494691
    Concerning what you said about rules for High-G worlds, I'd say that whatever IG regiment is sent to a High-G planet would obviously be prepared for it. Hell, Catachans are born on a high gravity planet, that's why they're so muscular/fuckhueg
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:12 No.13494694
    I'd make the squat trooper rare and expensive.

    Race of engineers and miners who fight with drones and robots. Mining drones and robots.
    >> that guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 01/12/11(Wed)13:13 No.13494701
    I'd say S3 T4 for fairness. They're designed to be hardy, not Superhuman
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:13 No.13494704

    And Catachans are still S3 T3, barring some exceptions like Harker and Straken.

    Squats should have the Ork statline with -1A +1BS and better leadership.
    >> Grimlock 01/12/11(Wed)13:19 No.13494735
    What about Squat WS? Are they bears in close combat, or is their size too much of a hinderance to fight properly?

    competent Alcaliab
    Captcha seems to think they are good fighters.
    >> that guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 01/12/11(Wed)13:22 No.13494754
    T3 S3 is Universal across many armies. It's simply a wide realm of strength/toughness.
    On an individual level, fluffwise, I'm sure a Catachan could easily break a Hormagaunt's neck while a Hormagaunt would turn a Cadian to shit if they got to him. IMHO, the difference between S4 T4 and S3 T3 seems minimal on tabletop but in fluff the difference is amazing.
    >> that guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 01/12/11(Wed)13:29 No.13494809
    They look more WS3 than anything, with possibly I2 and they can keep S4 T4. They look a bit slow to move
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:30 No.13494825
         File1294857034.png-(646 KB, 580x1015, squatcombatsquad.png)
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    I suggest you just use the stats that I have drawn from the original stats RT-era further above:


    Also as Squats your Flak armour, they should have a 5+ save. Don't give them too good armour, give them lots of heavy weapons instead.

    Just look at the old fluff. Pic related.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:32 No.13494839

    Yeah, that statline is good.

    No S4. That's a Marine/Nob/Tyranid Warrior strong, and a basic squat ain't that, high grav origin or not.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:33 No.13494855
    i think they should be cumbersome in CC. You cant kill by a mere wack on the head, but they cant hit you hard back either.
    There is a reason why they love tanks, power suits, big guns etc.

    Fast hitting enemies in CC should be something they DONT want to go up against.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:33 No.13494857
    Would you say...they need to do more squats?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:34 No.13494861

    It is reasons like this that I reckon GWS should switch to 1-20 stat system. That way we could justify Guardsmen as S4, regular civilians as S3, marines as S7 or S8 and Bloodthirsters as S20. GUess you'd have to switch to a D10 or D20 system though, which don't exist anymore in GW gameplay.

    Anyway, I digress. On with the squats!
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:39 No.13494904
    Wait... has anyone even read the entry for guard ratling snipers? They should have WS2 BS4 & Init3 LD7 (for purposes of going up againts grots, which i think should be their main enemy.) Squad should get lasguns and 3 assault weapons or 3 snipers, as they cant carry heavy weapons besides H-stubbers or rocket lanchers or mortars.

    Their BS 4 combined with the 6+ inv save and their low points cost, say; 7-8pts should make them competitive with tau and others. Now all we need is special equipment.
    >> Abuse 01/12/11(Wed)13:40 No.13494910
    First off, call them Demiurg, not Squat. "Squat" is just a bit too silly.

    WS3 or WS4, depending on how much of an "elite" army you want them to be. The change is mostly defensive (not getting hit on 3+ by units in CC), so...

    BS4 seems fine. They're master craftsmen and highly skilled with their weapons. (BS also counts stuff like weapon matinence, etc.)

    S3; even Orks are only S3 when not charging, and as Anon says, S4 is a bit excessive.

    T4; they're tough and bulky.

    A1; they aren't dedicated melee fighters, so any more than that is crazy.

    I2, possibly I3 if you want to stay away from the "slow and steady" theme or don't want them to be too good in CC.

    Ld8 or Ld9. Fantasy Dwarfs are the best-morale army there is in that game, carrying that over to 40K seems like it could be interesting.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:40 No.13494916

    Nice statline, but I disagree with the prolific heavy weapons. With their slow moment, it might already be too tempting to just deploy a ridiculous gunline.

    If every (or even most) member of a basic squad can have a heavy weapons, that a shit load of heavy weapons.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:42 No.13494928
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    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:42 No.13494930
    Try to stay close to the stats of Dwarf Warriors from fantasy; but only for physical traits (S3, T4, W1, I2).

    I agree with the guy that said keep real warriors rare. Most of the army should be miners and heavy vehicles, with low WS and BS but really good guns.

    I'd say a miner should be WS2 BS3 S3 T4 W1 A1 I2 Ld7 Sv5+ with a pick axe (2 handed ccw that adds +1S) and a twin-linked lasgun or a lasblaster (see Swooping hawks).

    REAL warriors would have WS4, BS4, Carapace Armor (vets have power armor), and pulse weaponry, or the like. Maybe bolters that can be upgraded to 24" range pulse rifles.

    The warriors, at least, should have the option of using the Slow and Purposeful rule if they choose. I see them as a relentless wall that either advances or retreats in a highly ordered fashion dealing as much damage as possible.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:43 No.13494945
    Can we have some sort of epic squat servitors?
    >> Abuse 01/12/11(Wed)13:46 No.13494968
    >good guns
    >TL Lasgun or Lasblaster

    Do you even look at what you're typing?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:47 No.13494977

    WTF no, that is heresy, unless you've forgotten BS4 shots and 6+ inv saves are all the power you need.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:48 No.13494982
    A lot of the non-warrior weapons should have a mining or construction theme. So soldering lasers, rocks crushers (CC), ore incincerators etc should be de rigeur.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:52 No.13495019

    They need to pay for these guns obviously if they want to replace the lasgun. Also re-read thatr their most notable aspect is that they can field any number of heavy weapons.

    As for gunlines, that is no good in objective games. Basically a combat squad sitting in cover on an objective should be hard to remove. Conversely, it should be hard for them to reach an objective on the other side of the table.

    But yeah, they are more of a shooty army than close combat in general.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:53 No.13495024
    >Since Matt is known for his blatant fanwankery, we should be able to get away with near ridiculous levels of brokeness of the Squats without raising too many eyebrows.

    What are you trying to "get away" with? No one will think it's an official codex. It will remain a fan codex no matter what you do, and people won't care who wrote it, they're still either not going to use it no matter how balanced it is, or play for giggles and not give a shit either way.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:53 No.13495031

    oops, good gun was meant for warriors. miners should have a shitty gun (but better than a guardsman's) that they pass if the mining camp gets attacked.

    my bad
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:54 No.13495037
    Here's some of my ideas for unit types, and another guys ideas for wepons

    Guildmaster (grants army-wide bonuses somehow)
    Honourmaster (pure fighty warrior bloke, upholds the honour of the clan through one on one combat)
    Warsmith (techmarine/librarian combo? something to do with boosting vehicle performance mid-battle)

    Hearthguard (hard as nails elite troops, can be good at both shooty and choppy)
    Forgenaut (steam powered walker ho!)
    Steelbreakers (infantry specialising in anti-tank)
    Golem (ogryn style robots)

    Squat Squaddies
    Squat Rangers

    Fast Attack:
    Squat Bikers
    Jump Pack Squats

    Heavy Support:
    Land Train (starts with engine, add more carriages on for more points, carriages are immobile unless hooked up to engine)
    Thunderer Artillery
    Shieldbearers (shield unit)

    Bison Transport

    Furnace Gun: S4 AP5 Flamer, but fires like the Hellhound inferno cannon

    Graviton guns cause pinning, with a penalty to the test dependent on how good the enemy armour is. a 2+ save nets you a -4 penalty, for example.

    i also have ideas for the Warsmith "psychic powers." Should Squats even have psykers? they are human offshoots after all
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:56 No.13495054
    guys guys guys
    you are trying to reinvent the wheel. squats do have stats. all you need to do is to adapt them and to balance them towards what the general philosophy of the army should be. and imho opinion that should be guns. lots of 'em. the heavier the better.

    thus my suggestion, based on the 1st squats army list:

    Squat Combat Squad member
    WS 4
    BS 3
    S 3
    T 3
    W 1
    I 2
    A 1
    LD 9
    Sv 5+

    Lasgun, Flak armour, Close-combat weapon, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades

    Options: Meltabombs, replace Lasgun for a heavy weapon, etc.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:56 No.13495060
    Squats should move 5 inches for being slow fucks.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:57 No.13495073
    What about vehicles?
    5th ed is vehicle ed, so Squats would need a little something something to remain competitive. I don't like the idea of "ok guys, guys, hey guys, imperium vehicles but smaller!"
    Maybe some kind of trukk styled vehicles that were adapted to war from mining equipment? Minecar dedicated transports? Or, speaking of minecars, filling one with explosives and strapping rockets to it to make a powerful one shot weapon.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:58 No.13495085

    no living ancestors??? guys, let's all go over the existing army lists and re-use that stuff first please. after all models for these do exist. after that we can plug holes in the army list with new troop choices.

    no rejection of what you have written anon, only pointing out that this order of steps would make more sense.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)13:59 No.13495101

    Slow and purposeful + Relentless? Or would that be too much Legion Of The Damned?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:00 No.13495118

    that should read T4
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:00 No.13495119
    slow and purposeful grants relentless. Having both is redundant.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:01 No.13495134
    shit i knew i forgot something

    here's my idea for the basic Squat statline
    WS3 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 LD8 SV4+

    Part of me wants to go "all Squats should be Relentless"
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:03 No.13495154
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    Yes, i see multi-meltas, multi meltas everywhere!

    May i present my idea for a special weapon. Its essentially an encinerator, counts as heavy. Cost: 30pts range; 16" (like the guard hellhound tank it can flame distance)

    That aughta deter most assault fags and endeer the gamer community.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:06 No.13495188
    Squats should have some type of gravity weapon. A crushing force beamer of sorts.

    Something they converted from a mining or ore moving tool.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:09 No.13495205
    Look, warhammer fags.

    No squat WS4, just no. They arnt astarties their just guardsmen. What do you expect, them to go all yoda on there asses. If you can imagine it, it can happen, if not then... Their natural strength is firepower not manuverability or melee.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:10 No.13495216
    I got ideas for that:

    24" S6 AP5 Heavy 1 Pinning

    Shit AP because its a crushing weapon. Instead of pinning, it could force the target unit to move as if it were in difficult terrain next turn. That way fearless units dont avoid the crushing gravity
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:10 No.13495227
    I did have an idea for a radiation gun a few days ago. It somhow doesnt kill everyone... maybe some sort of dish.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:11 No.13495234
    I'll go ahead and agree with this. Hell, I might even go so far as to say WS2 to show how much slower they would be in combat(I2 as well.)
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:13 No.13495261
    Again, heresy.

    Gravity weapons are too complex even for forgeworld squats. Only the eldar or tau should have that weapon name. You need something more indescriminate and devestating like this:
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:19 No.13495320
    Scout and Infiltrate from ANYWHERE. Only instead of dropping in they come up from tunnels.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:19 No.13495321
    i don't think we should say "they can't too that it is too complicated". Other reasons sure, but these are the craftsmen, the dwarfs, the artisans of 40k. They should be able to make whatever they want, but won't make something without a purpose.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:19 No.13495329
    Add small blast/large blast?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:27 No.13495415

    in the existing fluff they do have ws4 bs3. this alone will keep them from being perceived as fanboi wank because it cuts into their effectiveness - you pay for an upgrade that does not buff your specialty.

    and we should agree on a basic army philosophy.

    "basic philosophy: an army bristling in heavy arms (and mech) which isn't too shabby in close combat (they are space dwarfs - look at some of the illustrations)

    weaknesses: other armies are better in close combat (nids, BAs, Orks, vanilla Marines); plus it's a less maneuverable army. In a shooting contest with regular Guards, point cost differences should make for a balanced fight"
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:30 No.13495453
    Instead of relentless, I think they should have the option of using the Slow and Purposeful rules.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:33 No.13495489
    >What about vehicles?

    Just pull up some of the old Epic stuff, i.e. flying tanks (no transport), brutal artillery, and ridiculous super-heavies (the landtrain would probably work best for 40k scale, you could even use single cars as normal tanks an include the engine only for Apoc games).

    Why reinvent the wheel? Use what is there already. Then fill in the gaps.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)14:37 No.13495541
    >>Gravity weapons are too complex even for forgeworld squats. Only the eldar or tau should have that weapon name. You need something more indescriminate and devestating like this:

    Bullshit. Squats maintained the technology of the dark age of technology better than anyone else in the imperium did, and Gravity guns fit with their whole "heavy worlder" motif.

    That said, forge world released some rules for a new grav gun I think . It requires a S test to resist it's effect.

    Speaking of all this though... just found out that Ironmonger over on warseer has been working on a squat codex for some while
    Here's a link to it

    This is version 0.6 which is the last one before his final version.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:41 No.13495597
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    >Army of miners
    >Red Faction
    Guys, I think we have some new inspiration material for weapons.
    Fusion rocket launchers, rail snipers, riot shield and flamethrower shock troops, big mining robots, precision rifles, demo charges? Hell yes!
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:43 No.13495612
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    Needs more 'not-Squats' miniatures. If we're doing this, we should at least make the list compatible with the main, modern miniatures for space dwarf types.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:48 No.13495667

    Sure but the first thing we must ensure is that people can play with their old minis.

    So I think we should give the basic squats only flak armour as in the old fluff. The old minis also only wear flak, not carapace.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:48 No.13495668
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    one of the best contenders for space dwarfs is the Grymn range from Hasslefree.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:50 No.13495685
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    to be fair the old miniatures are older than a lot of people on /tg/, and are not exactly easily available, especially the plastic infantry sets that would make up the bulk of any army.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:50 No.13495687
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    Bob Olley even sculpted a lot of the original Squats afaik.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)14:55 No.13495733
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)14:57 No.13495744
    >>13495489why reinvent the wheel.

    Because, friend. This is the opportunity to introduce new stuff rather than just sitting on our asses.
    Think about all the new shit that's been introduced in the new codices for the IG and Space marines in the past couple years. Why should the Squats not get a rework to make them more interesting?
    If you stick with the old for no reason other than that you're a lazy fuck, you're wasting our time reading your post.
    Also there are TONS of things for Squats that never got done. For example the Squat Gyrocopters, The Goliath mega cannon, the various super heavies that they have that are in epic and not in 40k. The Squat Airships and tunnelers. Can you even point me at rules for their Hellbore?
    On the stats, S3 T4 sounds solid. The point someone made about Strength 3 covering a ton of variation is a solid one. However the hardiness of Squats is supposed to be legendary.
    But maybe we're jumping the gun a little on statting out units. We still haven't even addressed the issue of Fluff here.
    Yeah I know, fluff isn't really game related but it does determine the overall aesthetic makeup that goes into the army. So let's hear some suggestions to make them unique among the races.
    Here's my suggestion for making them more interesting: Because of the low numbers of Squats there are, no more than half of your points total can go toward actual "squat" units. Everything else must be spent on vehicles, robots, and heavy weapons.
    This creates an army of Drone and mech use with heavy fire power. Less shots, but more that actually will have a chance at killing the foe.
    As to fluff. I say that the Imperium lured the nids to the Squat Homeworlds and the Squats have learned about it and now have turned on them.
    I think casting them as an enemy of the Imperium, rather than just another abhuman race, and focusing on heavy weapons and drone use makes them significantly different and interesting as a playable race.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:00 No.13495770
    Old Crow do a nice range of 25mm scale (slightly smaller for the convenience of your squatish stature miniatures) vehicles, including some nice halftracks. Chunky sci-fi designs seem pretty appropriate. The separately available turrets just scream at me Tarantula support weapon platforms. Squats sure loved their mole mortars, thuddguns and other assorted support weapons after all.


    How about just robots in general?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:02 No.13495788

    sure but please let's first make rules for the minis that players have bought ages ago and still have sitting on their shelves. then built cool new stuff around this. more importantly then you have a core around which new stuff to spin. right now anon is just flooding nifty ideas. but just having ideas does not get one anywhere. let's do the hard work of laying a solid framework first.

    as for what happened to the squats... i heard there has never been a nid invasion of squat homeworlds at all instead the inquis ZAP!!!!
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:02 No.13495793
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:04 No.13495806
    Now you know why Space Marines were used to bring the Squats in the Imperium.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:05 No.13495814
    Give higher ranked Squats enhanced stats and that jazz. Problem solved.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:06 No.13495826

    That's why you provide squad options, bro. The basic stats are so that oldtimers can play again and you add options ("can replace X with Y for Z pts") so that the new kids on the block can discover the awesomeness of the almighty Squat.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:14 No.13495906
    need rules for riding tanks. double normal carrying capacity for squats but squats can fall off during moves and the guys outside take hits when the tank is being shot at.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:15 No.13495921
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    Pic related
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)15:16 No.13495938
    Holy crap, all those are fucking fantastic minis.

    The battle armor especially.

    Also DAT PLASMA! It looks like what plasma guns should look like. Like the Imperial version is clearly shit tier and that one is godly tier.

    I loved the "the was no nid invasion... it was actually a cover story for the inqui-zap" idea... that's fucking hilarious.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:17 No.13495947
    >Think about all the new shit that's been introduced in the new codices for the IG and Space marines in the past couple years.

    Coming from an Epic 1st/2nd background, an awful lot of that wasn't new to me. It was just transferred to 28mm for the first time.

    >Why should the Squats not get a rework to make them more interesting?

    You misread me. I am not against adding and changing stuff. I am against throwing everything out of the window. If you read my vehicle post carefully you will note that I recommended using existing vehicles from Epic, which had never been implemented in 40k before - basically the same type of 'inovation' you praise GW for.

    Then, when you are done with that - add yet more stuff on top.

    >If you stick with the old for no reason other than that you're a lazy fuck, you're wasting our time reading your post.

    I want to stick with the old, because change for the sake of change can stay with Tzeentch.
    If you write 'SQUATS' on the cover than I expect squats within.
    If you don't want squats but rather 'an army of modern soldiers in 40k who happen to be short', perhaps you should start looking for another name.

    The 'best' (read: most unique) treatment of squats was during 2nd Edition Epic. I would always look there for inspiration - it keeps with existing (albeit old) fluff, gives character, and sketches a good framework for further development.

    What do we have there?

    From my experience, an army characterised by three

    Powerful infantry, possessing excellent staying power but low on mobility (almost no organic transports, not many transport options at all).

    Some fast, hard hitting light troops (bikes, trikes, also gyrocopters).

    Very powerful (super-)heavy vehicles, again low on mobility, but with unsurpassed ranged firepower (most impressive perhaps the artillery).
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:18 No.13495963
    Totally agreeing on the robots.

    With the destruction of the squat homeworlds, their hatred should totally count against tyranids rather than orks, I'd say that'd be a nice and legitimate change of the old dwarfs hate greenskins thing.

    Still, millions if not billions of the short bastards out there in the galaxy away from their homeworlds, wandering around in Imperial armies and so on. But definitely keeping their physical numbers low. Tactics revolving around delay and barrage would be brilliant, to give them a twist on the Tau method of ranged combat. Offboard support seems like a mandatory thing.

    Just reading the old army list gives weapons teams with thuddguns, rapiers, tarantulas and mole mortars. Heavy webbers make an appearance in the weapons lists, I'm pretty sure no-one else has those these days. Conversion beamers would be good, perhaps a little of the old skool crazy grenade variety for the sake of disruption such as tanglefoot, stumm and scare gas, maybe even antiplant or blind. Deploy them from launchers and help stop being rushed.

    Perhaps in a twist tanks are simply not used by them. sure its a fuck over in the game rules terms, but then the 40k rules system is bollocks imho, but with enough robots and weapons platforms they should be able to compensate.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:23 No.13496012

    you need at least rhinos or else you'll never get combat squads to the other side of the table before the end of the game.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:25 No.13496034

    > Powerful infantry, possessing excellent staying power but low on mobility (almost no organic transports, not many transport options at all).

    > Some fast, hard hitting light troops (bikes, trikes, also gyrocopters).

    > Very powerful (super-)heavy vehicles, again low on mobility, but with unsurpassed ranged firepower (most impressive perhaps the artillery).

    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:25 No.13496035
    Even the Rhino has a sodding multimelta on it.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:27 No.13496059
    ws4 bs3 s3 t4 w1 i2 a1 ld9

    USR slow & purposeful
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:27 No.13496061

    That's squats for ya. Extra XP for the good observation roll though.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)15:27 No.13496062
    >>13495947 excellent points
    My sincere apologies there then. I read your post and apparently misread it. I thought you were saying "why should we spend time on redoing the squats when all we have to do is convert what already exists.

    I'm a huge Epic fan myself. and have a rather large Squat army. (2 CI, 7 Cyclopes, 8 land trains, and tons and tons of gyrocopters and troops to go with as well as 5 Hellbores and moles and termites) So I'd love to see them get all their units from epic detailed, as well as the ones in the Netepic rules which added significantly to them.

    I would however suggest that even back in 2e the squats were considered something of "joke" race because there was nothing really to distinguish them. I think that adding a genuine theme element might help. Which is why I brought up the possibility of having their forces have to field robots to flesh out their armies. This brings up the possibility of things like Drone control vehicles... Rhinos or similar vehicles that don't enter combat, but instead have a collection of Squats in them that are controlling the robot armies manually. Adapting them to be a drone using race (for when they need to do combat of numbers) as well as a heavy weapons race might be a good way to repackage them to appeal to new players.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:27 No.13496070

    Graviton guns as well. Don't forget the Graviton guns.

    Mole Mortars and Thudd guns are squat invention so definitely need to be in.

    They have to have Mole transports as well.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:28 No.13496086
    As the imperial tunnelers (also available to squats) do not feature in current IG anymore, why not use the Termite as their standard transport?

    (Other option from old (Epic) units doable at 40k scale: Berserker battlecar.)

    Or just force them to rely on mounted units (bikes, trikes) to range on the table and have their other infantry be all footslogging (defensive). This would also capture some of their old feel.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)15:29 No.13496098
    I love the look on the Commissar's face. It's like "Fuck, I hate being here, there's no cowards to shoot" He looks bored.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:29 No.13496099

    flak, save:5+. an option for carapace 4+ since non-gw models are intended to see potential use in the army
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:30 No.13496108
    >They have to have Mole transports as well

    Fucking easy: reverse drop pods.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:30 No.13496112
    Everyone seems to have forgotten the Chaos Squats. They are indistinguishable part of 40k fluff just like the loyalist Squats.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:32 No.13496133

    Distinguishing features? Heavy weapons everywhere, Slow & Purposeful. That's just as distinguishing as dwarfs in WFB.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:32 No.13496134
    They're not riding. Just coming out the top hatch.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:34 No.13496168
    Chaos squats were simply a conversion of the standard list, reducing a few stats (all of which would now fall under a -1 leadership) adding chaos mutations/rewards to squads and characters and letting them have 25% of the army in allies in chaos cultists, marines and orks.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:37 No.13496205
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    But it'd fit, right?
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)15:41 No.13496252
    Comprehensive unit list so far.
    Special Units (Hq/command)
    Ancestor Lord
    Forward Observer
    Grand Warlord
    Living Ancestor
    Mechanist/ Mechpriest
    Slayer Champion
    Zutik Ratling Sniper

    Bodyguards (exo armor)
    Burner/Furnace Lord
    Stone Lord (grav gun team)
    Tunneler (Conversion beamer team)
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)15:46 No.13496306

    Guild Biker
    Guild Trike (various configs for heavy weapons on it)
    Guild Master

    IG walker
    Bomb bots
    Light bots (fast combots designed to get into close combat and kill normal troops)
    Medium Bots (medium all purpose combots, can be tasked as close combat, short, medium and long range weapons)
    Heavy Bots (Heavy robots that carry heavy weapons)
    Mining bots (hastily converted mining bots retasked to use a mix of weapons in combat)
    Munitions bots (a bot that explodes into a minefield sort of like a clusterbomb)

    (more to come)
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:47 No.13496319

    why not divide the list into hq and elite/troops/fast/heavy?
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)15:51 No.13496349
    >>13496306 continued

    Iron shield (heavy armored APC)
    Land Raider
    Retributor (mobile howitzer)
    Thunderfire cannon (a sort of squat version of a german 88, usable for artillery, AA, and direct fire)
    Ram (up armored version of the mole)
    Iron eagle gyrocopter (battle cannon armed)
    Steel Hawk Gyrocoper (multi melta and rockets)
    War Hawk Gyrocoper (guided missile armed)
    Zutik Bomber (Melta rockets, Missiles and battlecannons

    Battle cars for land trains
    Berserker Battlecar
    Bomb Battlecar
    Buoy Battlecar
    Cannon Battlecar
    Carrier Battlecar
    Dragon Battlecar
    Fireshield Battlecar
    Iron Eagle Battlecar
    Morar Battlecar
    Secondary engine
    Skyhammer Battlecar
    >> This is unbalanced Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:55 No.13496390
    Reading all this, it looks like everyone is failing to make these guys tolerably beatable. You want to give them WS4 heavy assault troops along the lines of dwarf berserkers -and- access to more BS4 heavy weapons and tanks than anyone else.

    If the only thing you're prepared to sacrifice is maneouvrability, you need to try harder.
    >> Ekoi !PpcsYfrVrw 01/12/11(Wed)15:56 No.13496396
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    Should I dump the squat pages again, or just put em in a rar for easy access?
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)15:56 No.13496401
    >>13496349 still more
    Light artillery
    Mole Mortar
    Thudd Gun

    Heavy Artillery
    Goliath Mega cannon
    Light offboard barrage
    Heavy offboard barrage

    Observation baloon
    Overlord armored airship

    Hearthlord SHMBT
    Hellfury APC
    Hellworm engine (landtrain variant)
    Land train engine
    Robot Command Vehicle

    Capitol Imperialis

    That's all the units I'm aware of that have been used in Epic, netepic and 40k for squats.
    The praetorians of course would be next to unusable for anything other than epic or Apoc. But I included them for completeness. Also expanded the robots out to logical roles and added the stone lords (grav guns)
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:57 No.13496413
    I am not a huge fan of the 'drone army' myself, robots would be fine sure but I'd rather see them as a support choice than as mainline troops.

    That leads to the question though: How is squat infantry really different from IG?

    Do you think it is sufficient to give them T4 and high Ld? Or should there be something more?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)15:59 No.13496422

    Chaos Squats need sorcerers and Daemon Princes though, this also means inventing new psychic powers.

    Unless we want them to suck like Ahriman and most of the Chaos Marine powers.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)16:00 No.13496433
    Dude, if you just ran down all the stuff marines get, you'd be saying the same thing. Except that Marines have even MORE options of stuff to get.
    Right now we're still working on the concept. As in what will set them apart.

    Placing restrictions and balancing them is when we get into the nitpicky stuff. First we have to establish a theme and backstory that makes them interesting.

    As to the WS 4 and BS4 stuff. Chill. We're going to work stuff like that goes toward balance later. Right now settling on a theme and distinctive traits that make them a fun and interesting army that would attract players comes first.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:02 No.13496449
    The sunglasses-wearing rifleman (or w/e) looks absolutely positively badass.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)16:06 No.13496490
    >>13496413I am not a huge fan of the 'drone army' myself, robots would be fine sure but I'd rather see them as a support choice than as mainline troops.

    Then suggest something. That's what we're starting with. Taking the old material, looking it over, and then trying to rework them as a race so that they are both unique and interesting to play. I tossed the Drone or Robot army thing out there just to get the ball rolling.
    If you're not fond of the idea, you're perfectly justified in not being fond of it and welcome to offer up your ideas as well.

    >>That leads to the question though: How is squat infantry really different from IG?

    Exactly the problem we're trying to overcome. How to take the squats as a group and try to find a way to make them fresh and cool, and not lose that essential squatishness at the same time.

    That's why we've got this whole thread going. So that we can toss out ideas and see what might surface.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:08 No.13496510

    Heavy Weapons. Heavy Weapons everywhere. And lack of maneuverability. These are distinctive features, I believe.

    Squats are supposed to be more of a shooty army, I say. The WS4 and T4 and Sv5+ are supposed to help them not totally suck against real melee armies but should pose no threat to them.

    Conversely, the Tau should be able to outshoot them.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:10 No.13496520
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    When I see this pic, I wanna play pic related squats with a Deathkorp Commissar leading them.

    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:12 No.13496538
    Robots, tarantulas, and rapiers could probably go together as one group of units: robotic weapons (either assault-y ones (robots) or shooty (the others)).

    The easiest way would probably to do them as normal infantry-style units with good saves.

    That would leave an option to perhaps do Exoarmor as vehicles (dread-style), to differentiate it from termies.

    As for stats: I'd keep the entire army at WS 4 BS 3 - I think it's an interesting compromise to have a shooty army with high WS and helps with the defensive styling of the force.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:13 No.13496544
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    If we can't agree on the basic trooper statline, we won't be able to agree on too much else.

    As for why WS4? Pic related.
    >> Anonymous Prime 01/12/11(Wed)16:14 No.13496551
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    I always liked these power armors (I believe these are chaos squats though). Especially the uber-clunky look of the gear. Any way of implementing them in the list? Or are there already units like that?
    They could have evolved from survival suits.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:15 No.13496564
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    Possible robots or just a massive upgrade on the old exoskeleton?

    Starship Troopers marauder suits if I remember right.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)16:16 No.13496567
    >>13496510Conversely, the Tau should be able to outshoot them

    Do you mean "outshoot" in terms of accuracy? or in terms of outpowering them?

    I'd agree on the accuracy thing, but strongly disagree on the issue of power.

    Tau stuff LOOKS super futuristic. But the Imperial and Squat stuff has advanced to the point that it has ceased to care or need to look futuristic to do its job.

    Squats are supposed to be the lords of the heavy weapons. Therefore having the Tau be more Effective in the Heavy Shooty department than them?... No. not gonna happen. Because doing that would take away from the whole point of them being the Heavy weapons specialists.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:18 No.13496591
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    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:18 No.13496599
    BS 3, however all of their weapons are twinlinked.

    That would be lolz worthy for the fluff and on game.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:19 No.13496606
    just rip the old fucking stat line, whatever that was.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:20 No.13496613
    Then the Tau shtick would be what exactly?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:22 No.13496638
    infantry with long ranged rifles, battlesuits and railguns.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:22 No.13496639

    You misunderstand. You are looking at it from the fluff-side, not from the game-side. So let's assume a squat player plays against his friends who has Tau.

    How is Tau supposed to win?

    Surely not in close combat. So against the Tau, the Squats have to use Heavy Weapons cover fire to bring some squads to objective or enemy units to seal the deal.
    The Tau otoh have to keep the Squats at distance and take advantage of their lack of maneuverability.

    Or lack of numbers if we decide to go the "there is only a few squats left" route.

    My 2 cents.
    >> Anonymous Prime 01/12/11(Wed)16:23 No.13496653

    Ha! They already had the survival suit idea themselves I see. Shouldn't be surprised I guess with an army based on mining equipment.
    Thanks for showing me.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:25 No.13496663
    tau are shoot and avoid melee by all means.

    squat should be like: shoot if you can and only enter melee when really necessary.

    one notch less shooty.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:27 No.13496685
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)16:27 No.13496687
    >>13496544 If we can't agree on a basic stat block then no hope

    Fine, let's start with the basic stat block and talk about it.

    WS 3 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A 1 LD9 Sv 5+

    How does that sound for a base?

    For berserkers or Hearth guard, elites whose job it might be to go into close combat or hold a place... WS4 BS3.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:28 No.13496702
    I'd like them to not only be heavy weapon-based, but also with this "mining" touch. So while one part of the army is busy bombing the enemy into oblivion, the other part should dig their way towards enemies and take them by surprise.
    The idea of "reverse drop pods" might be interesting, or something like the tunnels of Skaven gutter runners.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:29 No.13496707

    Look at:
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:31 No.13496726
    >How does that sound for a base?

    Switch WS and BS and we are golden.

    Have them be shooty by their equipment, not by their stats. (And have them be choppy via stats instead of equipment.)
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)16:31 No.13496728
    >>13496639Or lack of numbers if we decide to go the "there is only a few squats left" route.

    That's what we've been saying.

    Squats: Quality of shots
    Tau: Quantity of shots

    Squats hit less, but harder.
    Tau hit more, but softer.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:31 No.13496730
    sounds alright to me.
    also, was there ever a timeline sorted out for the codex?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:32 No.13496735

    >shoot if you can and only enter melee when really necessary

    You mean Eldar.
    >> Anonymous Prime 01/12/11(Wed)16:33 No.13496742
    Guys, guys!



    Morbikes with...

    ...Hold it...

    ... motorbikes with chainsaws attached!
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)16:34 No.13496748
    Fine by me. I'm just tossing out ideas. What do others think about it?

    Should the base trooper for Squats be choppier, or shootier?

    I'm not of any one preference myself, there's equally good reasons for both sides of the argument the way I see it.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:36 No.13496767

    Percentage-wise I think there will be plenty of old-timers who'll use the book and fewer people who'll start a new 40K army because of it, I think. The first group will not understand why their old squats are now better at shooting than chopping.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:37 No.13496773
    Another thing: Seeing that squat heavy weapons in the illustrations where mostly hv bolters or multimeltas, how about using that 'divide' at more instances in the list? I.e. have units/weapon be big on specialisation rather than generalist (so, your Thunderers can either be anti-infantry or anti-tank, but you cannot give them something like missile launchers to be somewhat capable at both).
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)16:39 No.13496802
    >>13496730 Timeline?

    Yeah there is a squat timeline.
    Also I found this http://www.mediafire.com/?eo49chdzazp2phn
    Ironmonger's newest squat codex. It'd pretty good actually. Done back in 2008

    So there's plenty of fluff to read.

    The thing is, we need to figure out how they survived the Nid attack, whether there even was on, (maybe the nid attack was actually a cover of a covert "cleansing" that the Inquisition tried to carry out) Why the nids attacked them in the first place (I suggested that the Imperium betrayed the Squats and found a way to lure the Hive fleet into the galactic core area to get rid of the Squats) How did the squats escape to become the Demiurge and what are they doing now.

    All this has real possibilities to spice up their background fluff.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:43 No.13496839
    Why not have it in the fluff that they were just chased out (adding specifics later if I have ideas) by the 'nids, but hint at your idea with evidence to suggest about the whole Inquisitorial plot thing (don't state it as fact, but make it hint at it GW style (so much it's glaringly obvious, or just plain confusing)).
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)16:44 No.13496854
    Do it. Break thunderers up into various versions. Just because there is one entry on that list doesn't mean that there aren't variations within it. Show us your idea. Or go into the existing docs and see whats there and if you need to expand it, do so.

    Grab an entry and run with it.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:46 No.13496865

    Or we leave the exact details of what happened open and just have it all be rumours.

    Rumours say the were nearly wiped out by the nids, rumours say that the nids were led there, rumours say there were no nids at all just an inquisitorial death sentence.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:46 No.13496867

    Could just have it that this codex is for the squats who didn't get eaten.

    Surely there must have been a planet somewhere which escaped?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:47 No.13496869
    >The thing is, we need to figure out how they survived the Nid attack

    Simple, have the army based on the millions and millions that were out in imperial armies, trade ships, mines and so on. Have them pull together out of what was left, perhaps establish new homeworlds from colonies.

    It should be very difficult to actually have them wiped out considering they were an integrated part of the Imperium. Just have them take time to pull back together.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)16:48 No.13496885
    But stating it as fact makes it even better. That way instead of still being able to ally with the Imperium, now they hate the Imperium too now. Seriously, the Imperium would do a dick move like that without hesitation.

    But then again, maybe the Eldar gave the Imperium the device that was used to actually lure the Nids and planted the whole idea in the first place. Wouldn't that be just like them? Then they step in and help the Squats escape the nids, just to appear like the "good guys" to the Squats.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:50 No.13496898
    Let's have them flee the hive fleet and now return.

    After all, their worlds were all barren rocks to begin with. When the squats left, there was no biomass for the nids to eat (apart from pesky ork squatters) and so the hivemind left the home worlds alone.

    The squats (little scientific geniuses that they are) knew of this, and planned the whole demiurge fleet venture to be a circle route from the beginning.

    Now, they return to their ancestral places, just to find them crawling with all manners of undesirables (from the usual orks, to filthy admech explorators, to nid rearguard organisms).

    Tada - all set for war on all fronts. Integrating old fluff, the nids, the demiurge, and on top of it giving the 'new' squats good reasons to use all the old stuff from the 'old' squats (because they are right back where they started out).
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:50 No.13496905
    I'd blame the Admech guys tbh. If anyone is going to be a direct rival, they would be.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:52 No.13496922
    You want them to shoot harder than Tau whose signature weapon is S10 AP1 and base infantry weapon is S5 AP5?
    How much harder can it get?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:53 No.13496932
    I actually really like this idea. What's everybody else's thoughts on it?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:55 No.13496946

    My thinking is this: the normal troop choice of Squats should be bristling in Heavy Weapons, right? Especially the Heavy Bolter which Squats supposedly love.

    So what would a Heavy Weapons squad be for Squats? What sprung to my mind was Tarantulas, Mole Mortars, Thundefire Cannons perhaps.

    So I don't understand the concept of Thunderers.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:56 No.13496959
    Perhaps a better idea might be:

    Long range firepower: disruptive barrage stuff, thudd guns, graviton guns, mole mortars.

    Short range firepower: the actual hard hitting stuff. Meltas and so on.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:58 No.13496976

    Ayup. And the real organization behind it was the Admech because of the Squats tech mastery. The Squats don't know it and now wage war against anyone and anything they suspect responsible.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)16:59 No.13496986
    Seems like an interesting idea, but it doesn't explain yet why the 'nids came there in the first place. Personally, I don't think that the Inquisition would do something like that, I'd blame it on Eldar or AdMech. Or it was a chaos squat ritual that attracted the wrong forces. Actually, I like this idea.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:02 No.13497014
    One thing I did in DH when I used the demiurg is give them "glyphs", rune-type symbols that worked on a memetic level to enhance or alter equipment. I thought that felt a bit more dwarfy than just repainted psykers, though glyphmasters did use psychic enhancement to create or use the most powerful symbols.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)17:02 No.13497017
    I'm cool with it. It's as good an idea as any. Maybe we should have a vote or something once we have an actual list of people willing to work on this.

    I'd suggest stealing a name from one of the people working on the codexes from GW for a working name.

    I'll be "Matt Ward", since I'm kinda the instigator of this idea and take the least favorite name of all.

    Then when we have a vote to determine what the fluff points are, we can just vote and let majority rule?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:02 No.13497021
    but the admech loved the squats
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:03 No.13497027

    As a side note, in the free Deathwatch RPG mission Final Sanction, the players in the end find eveidence that a then dead Inquisitor found out that somebody lured the nids to attack the planet the mission was set on.

    So this isn't a so unique plot and I expect FFG to elaborate on it.

    That said, I'd love to see Adeptus Mechanicus involvement.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:06 No.13497046

    I am willing to become CS Goto. Or Bryan Ansell.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:24 No.13497242

    good dig (no pun intended) but we can do better.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:26 No.13497251
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    And they loved being the sole monopolizers of technology more.

    Seriously, I would actually play 40K if squats were a supported army.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:30 No.13497289
    Interesting. So are these glyphs like physical programs or USBs, or do they unlock restricted abilities, or are they just plain machines that run on psychic phenomenon like the Malleus Psycannon?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:32 No.13497298

    nanite dispensor modules perhaps?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:40 No.13497369
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    Huh, if squats had nanomachines that were completely under their control, that would make them one of the most technologically advanced races in 40K. And it's probably Heretek to make it too.

    If squats still have Medic units like back in the old days, Nanomachines could explain how fast they work. They could also allow the techpriest stand-ins to give vehicles regeneration...
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:46 No.13497428

    not under their control, only in their possession? anyway, just an idea that popped up. the thing about nanites is that they would work with about any tek. pop the thing on and the nanites creep in and rewire the inside to work more efficiently.

    otherwise why would the glyph work no matter what it was hammered onto?

    anyway i am not married to the idea.

    > kabledic avoid

    avoid it at all costs, little squat.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)17:49 No.13497450
    Okay, vote time.
    The Fluff is that the nids attacked the Squats and ate them. However there are some problems with this.
    1. Nids go after biomass which the Squat homeworlds are NOT rich in. They are planets near the galactic center and thus are hot barren worlds of iron with magma running like rivers.
    2. It's an amazing coincidence that a whole fleet of nids didn't just attack one or two worlds, but all of the Squat homeworlds pretty much at once.

    This smacks of someone arranging it.

    So let's vote on WHO is responsible. Then we can narrow it down.
    1. The Imperium did it!
    2. The Orks did it!
    3. The Tau did it!
    4. Chaos did it!
    5. The Eldar did it!
    6. The Necrons/C'tan did it!
    7. The Squats did it to themselves?

    Okay, clearly some of these options are lame, but if someone has a brilliant idea, far be it from me to say no.

    If we go Imperium did it, then we can hammer out the details as we go. It'd be enough to say that they did it.

    As to the how... Maybe they kidnapped some larva off one of the motherships in the swarm, like a queen larva or something brain bugish. The Swarm goes after the kidnappers and the culprits use drop pods to land the larva on the squat homeworlds. Instant Nid bait to attract them. Then once they're there, the nids just attack.

    Either that or maybe someone figured out some sort of psychic nid attraction device. If it's activated it draws nids like flies to honey. Soft land a few of those on the Squat homeworlds... mission accomplished.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:50 No.13497457
    >otherwise why would the glyph work no matter what it was hammered onto?

    Stable warp-infused technologies.

    After all, the guild are the only ones to perfect warp-core reactors, are they not?

    So just have them use the warptech stuff the admech is so afraid of.

    And/or let it tie into their ancestor worship/guiding ancestor spirits.

    Probably it's a combination of those.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)17:54 No.13497489
    I, Matt Ward, vote; 1. The Imperium did it!

    The Squats had discovered that they had a long lost STC template archive containing so much lost tech that publication of it would have ruined the Admech and plunged the Imperium back into a dark age of technology. It was our duty to stop them. That and the stunty little buggers kept sneaking into my underpants drawers at night and stealing my fresh clean underware.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:57 No.13497513

    The halflings did it.

    Seriously, I have no idea and am abstaining from the vote. That part of the fluff is the least interesting to me AS IT SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED TO BEGIN WITH.

    Do with it what you think is the most fun, guys.

    But don't forget the
    > ponony fon
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)17:59 No.13497534
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    First of all i need to say that YOU are the best fucking board ever /tg/, so far im liking the idea about the nids "wiping" em off, and it would make sense why the squats survived, but then again that will up to ye fellas to decide.

    Never change /tg/
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:00 No.13497545
    The Chaos Squats did it. (does this count as "They did it unto themselves."?)
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:00 No.13497554
    'nids still did it

    GW even said.

    They were forced underground and regained in strength until they could take back the surface again
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:01 No.13497559
    This guy has the fluff and the old vs. new problems solved. Move on. Write the codex.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:04 No.13497600
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    Leave it out. Focus on the survivors, their talk of 'The Devouring", and the way each faction blames some other race or faction or tactic for the decimation of the Squats.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:05 No.13497606

    Yes, this pleases Bryan Goto too.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:05 No.13497614
    Seconded; this sounds good.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:07 No.13497636
    After thinking about it, I second this. More reasons to fight/collaborate for a short time with everyone.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:08 No.13497651
    How to attract the nids? Unload a trail of Genestealers and Lictors in systems and shit hits the fan?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:12 No.13497693
    I vote for the Tau doing it, staging the death of the Squats so the Squats could secretly ally themselves with the Tau under the name of the Demiurg.

    If that's too stupid, then I vote Imperium, but with orders that didn't include the death of the homeworlds in it's plan, but turned out that way due to a. chaos dickery, b. inquisition dickery
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:13 No.13497710

    Bryan Goto thirds this.

    For some reason (which?) the squats manage to pack up bags and flee, they fly a large circle and return. They cleanse their homeworlds and are now thirsty for bloody, bloody revenge.

    But who to blame for luring the nids? Some say the Imperium, some say Admech (Squats vs Admech woo-hoo!), some say the Eldar. The heated debate went even so far that some squat factions went to war with each other (thus justifying squat vs squat battles or even Admech allies if some player want to maintain good relations with them).
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:18 No.13497744

    Essentially yea, genestealers form cults on words they infect and create a horde of mutant hybrids. They broadcast a low level psychic signal until they build up enough power that the hive fleets pick up the beacon that this world is ripe for harvest. The cults weaken the planet from within and show which worlds are weakest
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:21 No.13497778
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    oh man, i want to make an army of these dudes.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:28 No.13497829
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    yep, thats a cyber war bear.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)18:31 No.13497865
    Okay, sounds good. Then the concensus is... Someone did it(attracted the nids) but noone knows who.

    Maybe say that the only evidence was some drop pods of unknown make, possibly alien in construction. Clearly whomever did it doesn't want their identity to be known, but rumors abound. That it was the Imperium, that it was the Chaos Squats, the Eldar, possibly even the Orks. All that is known is that someone used something that attracted the Nids.

    Fortunately there was time to respond. The Squats embarked on huge mining ships that had been built to carry squats offworld in the event of a world being trapped in a warp storm for too long. These were the Demiurge. Leaving the nids to scour their homeworlds clean of orks and other infestations, the Demiurge embarked on a circular path of travel around the inner core, picking up survivors where they could and surveying new planets and dropping seed ships to establish new strongholds . They took the lack of imperial response to the invasion of their space by the nids to be an admission of possible involvement and cut off ties to the Imperium.

    The Squat fleet eventually circled back around to their homeworlds, which the nids had scoured clean and left... leaving behind only a token few of their kind to check for any hidden pockets of biowealth. The Demiurge ships landed once more and reclaimed their homeworlds, only now, they stand alone, while those responsible for nearly destroying them lurk somewhere in the stars. Was it the Imperium, was it some alien race striking from the shadows. Noone knows, yet. But as always, the Squats will endure and overcome them and their treachery.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:35 No.13497910
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    welp guys, generally what i am seeing in this thread is make them tough, make them miners, make them what they are

    my suggestion is, why not make them a slow moving demolition type army

    give them good toughness and focus their weaponry on demo charges and rocket launchers

    give the bulk of the infantry not lasguns but what are being suggested as heavy ordnance, except for the bulk
    are nice, as well as the nail rifle i saw earlier

    and give them shotguns if that isn't already a sweet theme goin for them
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:36 No.13497916
    As an outsider, someone who doesn't play 40k, but reads these threads....

    Why the fuck are the Squats gone again? Yeah their homeworld is gone, but you can't tell me there aren't pockets of them that weren't there. Here or there.

    Couldn't there have been Squats off on different planets somewhere?

    Wouldn't the Squats have, (with the whole space travel and everything), realize that having every last squat ever on ONE planet is a really bad idea?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:40 No.13497948
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    Why squats actually died:


    List of available squat minatures:

    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:40 No.13497958

    much of this must remain optional. one central design goal must be allow players with the old minis (which have lasguns and heavy bolters, etc) to play with the new rules.

    anything hillarious and extra-cool must be on top of this as gear options and so on.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:41 No.13497960

    They didn't sell.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:43 No.13497976
    precisely, give them cheap ass wargear options and perhaps a nerf to the range of the weapons (i dont know the codex or anything, just suggesting my help) plus it is easy as hell to glue a grenade or something to his hip
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:43 No.13497983
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    Except you can't GET the old minis.

    Why not focus the dex on the stuff you can get?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:45 No.13497992
    Terrible sales because they were a poorly executed concept.

    Many 40k races were poorly executed concepts but sold well enough to warrant further development. Squats did not.

    Technically, they survive as Demiurg that hang around the Tau regions of space.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:46 No.13498000
    > I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

    Nothing stopping you except GW employees.

    > Painers warrants
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:47 No.13498021

    for the record: in the old fluff the squat squads all had frag, crack and meltabombs. Sounds like a wrecking ball commando to me.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:48 No.13498025
    Bollocks did they. They sold as well as the SoB do now.

    Read this, and next time, actually read up on the topic.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:50 No.13498048
    How many people will start an entire squat army based on our codex?

    I find the concept of having the basic equipment based on the old fluff with enough options to replace with gear for current models best of both worlds.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:51 No.13498056

    Except I don't buy it.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:54 No.13498078
    So? You're just some random git on the internet, whereas GW have trotted out there version of events repeatedly and have little reason to lie about.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:54 No.13498082
    i will i have ideas and love to do conversions... i just hate painting...

    possible to use ork arms and just shave them down a bit and replace the hands with ig or sms
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)18:55 No.13498105
    >Why the fuck are the Squats gone again?

    Because GW said that Squats sucked, that they couldn't make them interesting or playable, and that instead of asking outsiders for new ideas they just said "Oh... the nids ate them" and gave thousands of fans who HAD bought squat figures the finger and told them "you can't play those figures in our tourney's as squats anymore".

    >>Yeah their homeworld is gone, but you can't tell me there aren't pockets of them that weren't there. Here or there.

    There are, but not like on their homeworlds. And pockets of them don't provide enough numbers to make a playable racial army.

    >>Couldn't there have been Squats off on different planets somewhere?Wouldn't the Squats have, (with the whole space travel and everything), realize that having every last squat ever on ONE planet is a really bad idea?

    That's the thing, they weren't all on one planet, but GW had given up on trying to figure out how to make them awesome and crank them up to 11 like they had the other races and said "umm yeah the nids hit every squat world at once". That and partially because back in 1e and 2e the game designers were all about doing "in-jokes" and not being grimdark and stuff so the jokey squats didn't "fit" with 40k's new image. Instead they had Squats portrayed as cigar chewing biker dudes with big beards. (Sort of squished down versions of ZZ top) which sucked. And thus didn't sell well.

    We're trying to create a rework of the whole concept and make them playable, interesting, and unique enough to attract genuine interest in playing them. Then blame the whole project on Matt Ward.

    Basically to show /tg/ can get shit done and do what they said couldn't be done. A good reintroduction of the Squats that make them a playable and fun race for 40k. That or just a lark for the hell of it.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)18:57 No.13498122

    Well, if that's what I am, so are you - so what's the point? I don't believe that story, I think it's sales-based, that's it.

    On with the programme.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:02 No.13498175
    I can sort of see why they took them out. Space elves you can get away with - the idea of an ancient, wise, yet dying race is a familiar one is sci-fi.

    But the moment you put space dwarves into your setting it immediately makes it into a parody of fantasy. It's just a step too far.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:03 No.13498183

    Do you know anyone who bought SoB?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:05 No.13498215
    > That and partially because back in 1e and 2e the game designers were all about doing "in-jokes" and not being grimdark and stuff so the jokey squats didn't "fit" with 40k's new image. Instead they had Squats portrayed as cigar chewing biker dudes with big beards. (Sort of squished down versions of ZZ top) which sucked. And thus didn't sell well.

    Yet they kept the Orks? Uh-huh, that makes like totally sense. Because the Orks are totally grimdark and haven't remained silly caricatures of "real" orcs?

    Orks are loved because they are silly. Just as dwarfs/squats are loved for their silly rough and tough guy act.

    As far as I am concerned our squats can't get enough bang. Demolitions is on the right track. It can't make BOOM loud enough.

    And as real tough guys make up rules for riding up on a rhino.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:06 No.13498223

    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:11 No.13498262
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    demiurg concept sketch

    look to be more like gnomes than dwarves
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:11 No.13498267

    Orks feel different somehow. They're alien enough. But you have humans, and space elves, and now space dwarves, people are gonna notice that this is just a generic fantasy setting in space with an extra helping of grimdark.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:13 No.13498278
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    I can see that. Pic related.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)19:13 No.13498285
    I'm not disagreeing with you. Orks are silly caricatures of rowdy football hooligans. (just look at how they're characterized as talking) I'm just explaining how GW thinks about Squats. That their name is silly, they didn't take them seriously, and that they essentially gave up on them because they didn't know how to make them fit.

    /tg/ however, look at all the ideas that we're throwing out there that would genuinely make them fun and interesting to play.

    >u go go buddhists

    Captcha is being interesting today
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:15 No.13498304
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    needs moar ZZTop
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:18 No.13498336

    They should have just rolled with it. Squats are cool after all. Where Orks are hooligans, I see Squats more as gritty, bearded war veterans that like to blow up stuff. Repeatedly. Especially if it's Orks.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:20 No.13498347
    Anyway can we get a vote on WS 4 or BS 4? I vote for WS 4. It fits the old fluff and gives a nice twist of having a shooty army that hasn't maxed BS but WS.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:24 No.13498392
    Squats are a bit hard to give a flavor to. The only real significant difference between them and humans is that they are short. I mean, that's not much to work with.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)19:24 No.13498396
    Well I gotta take a break from posting for a bit (things to do) I look forward to see what /tg/ gets done while I'm away.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:28 No.13498439
    BS 3 means that the Squats can be absolutely brimming with heavy weapons. If you bump them up to BS 4, you're going to have to cut back a little in the name of balance.

    On the other hand, it seems difficult to justify why they have such high WS, while a high BS seems reasonable.

    On the third hand (kill the mutant) ws 4 bs 3 is more in keeping with the old statline, which is something we should strive for.

    I'm for WS 3 BS 4
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)19:39 No.13498559
    >>13498347 WS 4 BS 3 vote?

    I think we all kinda agreed WS 4 BS 3 a while back.

    >>13496726Switch WS and BS and we are golden.
    Have them be shooty by their equipment, not by their stats. (And have them be choppy via stats instead of equipment.)

    >>13496748 Fine by me

    This way they are shooty by equipment not stats and hard as fuck to get rid of once they have claimed a tactical objective.

    Or do we need a vote for it?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:42 No.13498583
    > WS 3?

    >> Abuse 01/12/11(Wed)19:44 No.13498616
    BS is a lot lower in Fantasy (BS4 is basically characters-only), and old 40K was a bit weird that way also. I would go WS3 BS4 or WS4 BS4.

    If you want to give them lots of heavy weapons, just tone down the stats on those guns. Letting four guys pick a Heavy 3 S4 AP4 gun isn't really broken, all things considered. It's mostly the high-str/low-AP guns that you need to limit.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)19:51 No.13498698

    We're about to give the Squats Slow & Purposeful though, which means they can move and shoot the Heavies.

    The basic army philosophy right now is: shooty but not as shooty as Tau, can do a bit of close combat too, if charged. That is the niche we are aiming for right now.

    That's where WS4 and T4 would come in handy. And shooty because of the sheer amount of firepower a basic squad should bring to the table.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)20:08 No.13498888
    Gentlemen, if the codex is being attributed to Mat Ward, his name should at least be spelled correctly
    >> Dispatch !!aJVJUGc5KHf 01/12/11(Wed)20:58 No.13499494
    So mechanically we have agreed on a slow, heavy weapons army. How is this for a basic layout?
    Warlord - combat character
    Ancestor lord - psyker or support
    Guildmaster - basicly a techmarine

    Exo-suit squad - 2-3 plus save, linebacker squad or deepstrike
    Thunderer Squad - High ap or high at
    Tyranic war Veterans - access to bolters with hellfire rounds

    Warrior squad - basic infantry, 1 or 2 heavy weapons
    Engineer squad - similar to ia krieg engineers (inc hades drill)
    Spotting team - one per warrior squad, off-map artillary or boosted accuracy for on map guns

    Fast attack
    gyrocopter - basicly a vulture gunship
    Bike squad -squats on bikes, reaction unit, objectivr taker
    Heavy trike - large weapon on a single trike like a conversion beamer
    Sentinal squadron - same as ig

    Heavy support
    Heavy weapons squad -4 or 5 heavy weapons
    Thudd gun battery
    Thunderfire gun
    Land raider spartian - ed 2 land raider, give special rules

    land train and ordinatus for apoc

    What do you guys think?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)21:02 No.13499529
    I'd suggest replace thudd guns with mole mortar, and add in termite boarding drills in Apoc, and look at creating a number of drilling/mining/industrial-based items for vehicles to tie into the miner style.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)21:09 No.13499600
    >>13499529 replace thudd guns with mole mortars.

    Dude, thudd guns AND mole mortars were invented by the squats. In fact they originally required that squats were used to man them . You did know this, right?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)21:16 No.13499676
    Troop: Squat Hearthguard,

    WS:4 BS:3 S:3 T:4 I:2 A:1 Ld:8

    Standard Equipment: Furnace Rifle, CCW & Krak grenades.

    Up to 4 members of the unit may upgrade to Heavy Bolter, Meltagun, Gravaton Gun or Demolition Pack.

    The entire squad may pay X to be equipped with meltabombs.

    Slow and Purposeful.

    Furnace Rifle (need more awesome name) 18" S:3 AP:4 Rapid Fire. - Fluffed out as the bastard child of a lasgun and a mining cutting laser.

    Graviton Gun: 24" S6 AP5 Heavy 1. Any unit hit counts as in difficult terrain during their next movement phase.
    >> Dispatch !!aJVJUGc5KHf 01/12/11(Wed)21:18 No.13499702

    Sounds good. Perhaps a leman russ/chimera variant, it makes sense considering its a standard stc design for a dickload of civilian vehicles.
    or just add the option for melta cutters instead of a hull weapon to existing ig tanks

    arnt mole mortars a standard heavy weapon?
    >> ‹|RAT|› !.konOS3Rf. 01/12/11(Wed)21:19 No.13499719
    For a good characteristic basis there was a squat that was a main character in a 40k book(inquisition war maybe) he was an excellent engineer and his vehicles of choice were bikes ( tri-cycles tobe praticular).
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)21:27 No.13499811
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    yes, I do, because I was a gamer when squats had'nt been squatted.

    however, what you need for a good game design is characterisation, and the tunneling/underground mining feel of termites, mole mortar, and mining equipment is what's needed for a graphic design "family" of equipment to characterise the squats as being different to other IG units.

    that's what's called "design". you do know that, right?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)21:28 No.13499821
    40k noob here,

    What are squats? They look pretty cool but I have no clue what's their story... Anyone care to explain?
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)21:29 No.13499839
    Well, I'm going to get this started.
    Living Ancestor/ Ancestor lord
    WS 5 BS 5 S4 T 5 W 4 I 2 A 4 Ld 10 Sv 5+
    70 pts

    Composition 1 living ancestor
    Unit type infantry
    War gear :Flak armor, laspistol, force rod, psychic hood, frag and krak grenades
    Special rules :Stuborn, Independent Character, Preferred Enemy:(special), Psyker, Slow and purposeful.

    Psychic powers: A living ancestor has any two of the following (an ancestor lord has all 4)
    Mental Fortress
    Force Dome
    Hammer of Fury

    dedicated Transport:If the unit numbers 10 models of less the unit may be mounted in;
    Termite +40 pts
    Rhino +35 pts
    Options Upgrade to Ancestor lord 50 pts
    Replace las pistol with
    Bolt pistol or bolter 1 pt
    Flamer 3 pts
    Plasma pistol/gun 15 pts
    Power Fist 25 pts
    Power Sword 15 pts
    Storm Bolter 3 pts
    Thunder Hammer 30 pts

    Mount in a sidecar with a guildmaster trike 18 pts
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)21:30 No.13499851
    Hammer of Fury
    A Living Ancestor may use Hammer of Fury as a psychic shooting attack, or
    at the beginning of an assault phase. Place the large blast marker so that the
    centre of the marker is directly over the Living Ancestor. Any enemy model
    touched by the marker takes a S5 hit with an AP of 5. In addition place the
    models 1” directly away from the blast marker in a line from the marker’s
    centre. Models moved in this manner must take a pinning test.
    Mental Fortress
    The Living Ancestor and all friendly models within 12” of the Living
    Ancestor gain a 5+ invulnerable save against any damage done by a psychic
    shooting attack until the end of the opposing players following turn.
    A Living Ancestor may use Domination as a psychic shooting attack with a
    range of 12”. The target unit must take a leadership test at -2 (see
    Characteristic Tests in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook). If the unit fails the
    test they cannot move, run, shoot, assault or use any psychic powers until
    the end of the opposing player’s following turn.
    Force Dome
    A Living Ancestor may use Force Dome as a psychic shooting attack with a
    range of 24”. Place a marker by the affected unit. That unit is automatically
    pinned (even if that unit were normally immune to pinning), gains a 4+
    invulnerable save, and cannot be assaulted. Monstrous Creatures and any
    unit larger then twelve models cannot be targeted with Force Dome.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)21:36 No.13499926
    >>13499811however, what you need for a good game design is characterisation, and the tunneling/underground mining feel of termites, mole mortar, and mining equipment is what's needed for a graphic design "family" of equipment to characterise the squats as being different to other IG units.

    Dude, that's the THINNEST excuse for an... excuse I think I've ever seen.

    You're actually suggesting that we shouldn't use thudd guns because they aren't part of a "mining" theme? Land trains aren't mining related, are you suggesting those should be counted out too? How about the Iron Eagle gyrocopters? Shoot, Land raiders and rhinos aren't mining related, maybe ditch those too.
    I'm full well aware of what goes into good game design, and overly simplistic, chuckle headed thinking is generally not something that goes into good game design.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)21:39 No.13499973
    How has this thread not been candle-you-know-whoe'd into oblivion by the squat-killing boogeymen? Has /tg/ finally broken the longstanding curse?
    >> Dispatch !!aJVJUGc5KHf 01/12/11(Wed)21:40 No.13499978

    I like where your going but its a little overkill you think?
    I wrote one up myself but I cant be fucked typing it on a phone, ill post it if this up when I get home
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)21:40 No.13499989
    >>13499821 what are squats

    When 40k came out in the 80's (Rogue Trader was 1e) the various fantasy races of Human, Elf, Ork, and Dwarf were converted to Sci fi equivalents.
    Human knights became Space Marines
    Elves became the Eldar
    Orks became... space orks.
    and Dwarves became the Squats.

    Over time things like the undead became the Necrons and the Squats (because they didn't sell well and because GW has a lack of imagination) gradually got forgotten by the people at GW. Eventually they grew tired of all the "when are you going to give us a new Squat codex" questions at cons and GW killed off the Squats claiming they couldn't come up with a way to do them justice and keep them interesting and unique, and said that the Tyranids ate them.

    Hope that helps.
    >> ‹|RAT|› !.konOS3Rf. 01/12/11(Wed)21:41 No.13499993
    Its been noted on multiple occasions that squats enjoy orgyns, any chance for them being ork friendly?
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)21:46 No.13500062
    >>13499978like where your going but its a little overkill you think?

    If we're going to do this like a genuine Codex, why fuck around? Do it right the first time. Like a boss.

    >>13499993Its been noted on multiple occasions that squats enjoy orgyns, any chance for them being ork friendly?

    Not likely at all. Squats hate orks because of the great ork invasions they've suffered.

    However, in the Living ancestor entry above, notice I put the Preferred enemy special rule?
    I'm thinking that since we don't know who the people are that lured the nids into Squat space are, that each clan will have various "Grudge feuds" declared on who they think is responsible.
    Thus a clan can declare Orks or Eldar or whomever to be their preferred enemy and get bonuses in game for fighting them. (make it a dice roll thing so that you can't just choose who it is based on what your opponent chooses to play.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)21:47 No.13500077
    Yes, we're breaking the curse through /tg/ getting things done.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/11(Wed)21:50 No.13500106
    Squats were killed off because they were the brainchild of GW's THAT GUY.

    When THAT GUY left, GW looked at the Squats and for multiple reasons they stopped to continue the Squats, and yes, for some part that was probably because THAT GUY was a bloody fuckin' cunt.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/12/11(Wed)22:00 No.13500213
    >>13500106 Squats killed off because they were a brainchild of THAT GUY.

    Here's the wiki comment on the why
    A statement on why the Squats were dropped was given by games designer Jervis Johnson on 28 July 2004. In a Squat-themed thread on a popular Warhammer 40,000 message board, he posted an official response to the Squat Question. Summarizing, Johnson said the race was removed from the Warhammer 40,000 universe for the following reasons:

    * The designers felt that they "had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation", and that the Squats were more of a joke race.
    * There existed a design disparity with the Warhammer 40,000 and the Epic-scale renditions of the race, which prevented there being a cohesive vision of the race.
    * Despite the efforts of the design team, they were unable to think up ways to revitalize the concept
    >> Dispatch !!aJVJUGc5KHf 01/12/11(Wed)23:47 No.13501419
    Finished an pre-alpha list, will post it once im home
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)00:32 No.13501848

    When you say THAT GUY, who do you refer to?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)01:08 No.13502237
    0-1 Warlord

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    6 4 3 4 3 3 3 9 5+

    -Flak Armour
    -Bolt Pistol
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    -Power Weapon 10pts
    -Power Fist 15pts
    -Plasma Pistol 5pts
    -Krak Grenades 2pts
    -Meltabombs 5pts
    -Carapace Armour 5pts
    -Squat Trike 20pts

    Special Rules:
    -Independent Character
    -Warmaster: units within 12’ of the Warlord are Stubborn. Also No 0-1 on Tyranid War Vets


    0-1 Ancestor Lord

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    5 4 3 4 3 3 2 10 5+

    -Flak Armour
    -Psychic Hood
    -Bolt Pistol
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    -Power Weapon 10pts
    -Power Fist 15pts
    -Force Weapon 25pts
    -Plasma Pistol 5pts
    -Krak Grenades 2pts
    -Meltabombs 5pts
    -Carapace Armour 5pts
    -Squat Trike 20pts

    Special Rules:
    -Independent Character
    -Psyker: The Ancestor Lord has 2 psychic powers
    Hammer of fury: R: 24’ S: 4 AP: - Pinning, Large Blast
    Any affected squads count their next movement phase as being in difficult terrain.
    Mental Fortress: If successful, all friendly models within 12’ of the Ancestor gain a
    5+ Invun save against psychic attacks until the players next turn.
    -Keeper of Honour: All units within 18’ of the ancestor Lord may re-roll leadership tests.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)01:09 No.13502249

    0-1 Engineer Guildmaster

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    5 4 3 4 3 3 3 10 3+

    -Power Armour
    -Bolt Pistol
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    -Power Weapon 10pts
    -Power Fist 15pts
    -Plasma Pistol 5pts
    -Krak Grenades 2pts
    -Meltabombs 5pts
    -Servo-harness 30pts
    -Squat Trike 20pts

    Special Rules:
    -Independent Character
    -Blessing of the Omnissiah
    -Keeper of the Forge: The limit on Exo-Suit Squads and Heavy Trike Squads is removed.

    Command Group
    If a character is not mounted on a bike he may be accompanied by a command group and forfeits the Independent Character Rule.

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    Squat 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 7 5+
    Master 4 4 3 4 2 3 3 9 5+

    1 Forgemaster
    4 Squats

    -Flak Armour
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    -Power Weapon 10pts
    -Laspistol free
    -Bolter/Bolt Pistol 2pts
    -Plasma Pistol 5pts
    Melta Bombs 5pts
    -Krak Grenades 2pts per model
    -Carapace Armour 5pts per model
    2 of the following:
    -Grenade Launcher 5 pts
    -Meltagun 10pts
    -Plasma Gun 15pts
    -Heavy Bolter 20pts
    -Missile Launcher 25pts
    -Multi-Melta 30pts
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)01:11 No.13502261
    0-1 Exo-Suit Squad

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    Squat 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 8 2+
    Sergeant 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 8 2+

    1 Sergeant
    4 Squats

    -Exo-Suit Armour
    -Power Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    +5 Squats xxpts per model
    Melta Bombs 5pts
    -Krak Grenades 2pts per model

    Thunderer Squad (needs filling still)

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    Squat 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 8 5+
    Sergeant 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 8 5+

    1 Sergeant
    9 Squats

    -Flak Armour
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    -Power Weapon 10pts
    -Laspistol free
    -Bolter/Bolt Pistol 2pts
    -Melta Bombs 5pts
    -Krak Grenades 2pts per model
    -Carapace Armour 5pts per model
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)01:11 No.13502271
    0-1 Tyranic War Veteran Squad

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    Veteran 4 3 3 4 1 3 2 8 4+

    5 Veterans

    -Carapace Armour
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    +5 Squats xxpts per model
    -Power Weapon 10pts
    -Bolter/Bolt Pistol free
    -Plasma Pistol 5pts
    -Storm Bolter 15pts
    -Melta Bombs 5pts

    -Krak Grenades 2pts per model

    Special Rules:
    Hellfire Rounds:
    Preferred Enemy: Tyranids
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)01:13 No.13502284
    Warrior Squad

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    Squat 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 7 5+
    Sergeant 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 7 5+

    1 Sergeant
    9 Squats

    -Flak Armour
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    -Power Weapon 10pts
    -Laspistol free
    -Bolter/Bolt Pistol 2pts
    -Melta Bombs 5pts
    -Krak Grenades 2pts per model
    2 of the following:
    -Grenade Launcher 5 pts
    -Meltagun 10pts
    -Plasma Gun 15pts
    -Heavy Bolter 20pts
    -Missile Launcher 25pts
    -Multi-Melta 30pts

    Engineer Squad

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    Squat 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 7 5+
    Sergeant 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 7 5+

    1 Sergeant
    9 Squats

    -Flak Armour
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades
    -Krak Grenades

    -Power Weapon 10pts
    -Laspistol free
    -Bolter/Bolt Pistol 2pts
    -Melta Bombs 5pts
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)01:15 No.13502310
    Really should be hating tyranids by default, with the option to hate orks, eldar or imperial forces.

    Probably not hate tau or chaos though. chaos squats yes, but chaos like tau would rather absorb than destroy.

    On a question to all though, just how are we feeling about the trikes? personally I've always felt they worked better in EPIC (like every other light vehicle ever, but then in every edition its a better game than 40k) but there are plenty of good light armoured vehicles out there like sci-fi halftracks and so on that could feasibly operate under the same or similar rules for the mobile fire support element. Really though if any element was going to be got rid of for the sake of a more cohesive whole, trikes would be it.

    In the case of off-board barrage, could we have this, simply as a 'arrives on this turn in this area' thing rather than a targeted effect.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)01:17 No.13502334
    Are you calling for the elimination of the Living Ancestor? The reason I ask is that you're downgrading the Ancestor lord significantly from the old one.

    Living Ancestors are weaker versions of Ancestor lords. They have 2 psychic powers where Ancestor lords have historically had 4.
    Also Ancestor Lords should preclude the use of non squat forces in the army list.

    So if you have a Living ancestor in the army, you can have other races in the army. But if you have an ancestor lord, you can't.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)01:22 No.13502370
    Troops cont

    Spotting Team
    Max 1 per Warrior/Engineer Squad

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    Squat 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 7 5+

    3 Squats

    -Flak Armour
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    +2 Squats xxpts per model

    Special Rules:
    Spotters: May spot for off map artillery: R: 36’ (spotter) S: 9 AP: 3 Ordinance Barrage, Large Blast
    Or half scatter for on map gun. R: 36’ (spotter)
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)01:23 No.13502384
    Fast Attack
    Hades Breaching Drill

    BS Fr Sd Rr Type
    Hades 3 Tank


    Special Rules:
    “Deep Strike” 2 Squads

    Iron Eagle Gyrocopter

    BS Fr Sd Rr Type
    Gyrocopter 3 11 10 10 Skimmer



    Special Rules:

    Attack Trike Squad

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    Squat 4 3 3 4(5) 1 2 1 7 5+

    1 Sergeant
    4 Squats

    -Flak Armour
    -(Bike: Twin-Linked Bolter)
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    +5 Squats xxpts per model
    -Power Weapon 10pts
    -Laspistol free
    -Bolter/Bolt Pistol 2pts
    -Melta Bombs 5pts
    Any bike may take 1:
    Heavy Bolter 5pts
    Multi-Melta 15pts
    Plasma Cannon 20pts

    Special Rules:
    -Gyro-Stabilised: May move and fire heavy weapons.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)01:24 No.13502391
    Heavy Trike

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    Squat 4 3 3 4(6) 1 2 1 7 5+

    1-3 Heavy Trikes

    -Flak Armour
    -(Bike: Twin-Linked Bolter)
    -(Bike: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter)
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    Any bike may take 1:
    Twin-Linked Missile Launcher 5pts
    Twin-Linked Plasma Cannon 10pts
    Conversion Beamer 20pts

    Special Rules:
    -Gyro-Stabilised: May move and fire heavy weapons (except conversion beamer).

    Sentinel Squadron
    See Codex: Imperial Guard
    -Plasma Cannon: 20pts

    Heavy Support
    Heavy Weapons Squad

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    Squat 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 7 5+
    Sergeant 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 7 5+

    1 Sergeant
    4 Squats

    -Flak Armour
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades

    +5 Squats xxpts per model
    -Power Weapon 10pts
    -Laspistol free
    -Bolter/Bolt Pistol 2pts
    -Melta Bombs 5pts
    -Krak Grenades 2pts per model
    4 of the following:
    -Grenade Launcher 5 pts
    -Meltagun 10pts
    -Plasma Gun 15pts
    -Heavy Bolter 20pts
    -Missile Launcher 25pts
    -Multi-Melta 30pts
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)01:24 No.13502408
    Thudd Gun Battery
    See Imperial Armour: Siege of Vracks
    With squats...

    Thunderfire Gun
    See Codex: Space Marines
    With squats...

    0-1 Land Raider Spartan

    BS Fr Sd Rr Type
    Spartan 3 14 14 14 Tank

    -Hull: Heavy Bolter
    -Sponsons: Lascannon (2)
    Pintle-Mount Bolter

    Pintle-Mount Meltagun 10pts

    Transport: 16

    Special Rules:
    Ancient Relic:
    Land raider Achilles no-melta thingo...
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)01:26 No.13502421
    I was looking through and was about to ask about the land trains. I remember reading an older version of Second Armageddon that mentioned the Squats bringing in some of those to turn the green tide, but don't really know what they do or what they're capable of. I have to assume they're intended as their version of a Baneblade, but I could be wrong.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)01:29 No.13502446

    Its only an extreme barebones (some units are basicly empty), but feel free to pick at it, anything to add/change, etc.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)01:35 No.13502511
         File1294900512.jpg-(43 KB, 800x300, _squat_land_train_2.jpg)
    43 KB
    maybe if you strung a whole load of baneblades together.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)01:39 No.13502556
         File1294900772.jpg-(71 KB, 900x514, 1183404005567.jpg)
    71 KB
    >> Dispatch !!aJVJUGc5KHf 01/13/11(Thu)01:51 No.13502676
    Far better off as an apoc unit I figure, same with termites
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)04:53 No.13504022
    So is there any good fan made "Squat" codex's that aren't space dorfs on bikes?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)05:09 No.13504094

    Bro, I appreciate your work. However I thought we had agreed that Squats have Ld 9 as basic value. Ties in with the stats in the old fluff.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)05:11 No.13504107
    Also Heavy Bolter is the favourite heavy weapon of squats. This should be cheaper, perhaps?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)05:27 No.13504188
    Okay, repost of dispatch's basic layout:

    > Hq:
    > Warlord - combat character
    > Ancestor lord - psyker or support
    > Guildmaster - basicly a techmarine

    Except that it should read Living Ancestor - accepted.

    > Elites
    > Exo-suit squad - 2-3 plus save, linebacker squad or deepstrike
    > Thunderer Squad - High ap or high at
    > Tyranic war Veterans - access to bolters with hellfire rounds

    Not sure about the Thunderer Squads. First they sound like WFB, secondly... this would be a good slot to do something completely new and hilarious. Maybe we should have a look at newer non-GW Space Dwarf models and come up with something fancy.

    > Troops
    > Warrior squad - basic infantry, 1 or 2 heavy weapons
    > Engineer squad - similar to ia krieg engineers (inc hades drill)
    > Spotting team - one per warrior squad, off-map artillary or boosted accuracy for on map guns

    Just fine.

    Fast attack
    > gyrocopter - basicly a vulture gunship
    > Bike squad -squats on bikes, reaction unit, objectivr taker
    > Heavy trike - large weapon on a single trike like a conversion beamer
    > Sentinal squadron - same as ig

    Looks good too. Do we need the Sentinels?

    > Heavy support
    > Heavy weapons squad -4 or 5 heavy weapons
    > Thudd gun battery
    > Thunderfire gun
    > Land raider spartian - ed 2 land raider, give special rules

    > land train and ordinatus for apoc

    Okay, general question: as for the mech with which theme do we roll? Robots? No or few tanks? Lots of artillery?

    Personally I am undecided except that I'd love to see lots of heavy weapon teams with mole mortars, thudd guns, thunderfirew guns and the like.

    I would also like to see a return of the bombots but that's another thing.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)06:18 No.13504414
    Personally I think it makes them too much of an immovable object at Ld 9, 8 is probably the best option for Troops, therefore Elites 9 and Characters 10

    Its mostly a placeholder, but the idea was toyed with to make them 4' movement but able to move and fire heavy weapons, given that, it probably needs high points to stop spam.

    I will probably add the lite choices for all three 'heroes' and the powers thing will be changed
    Thunderers will specialise in either anti-personell or anti-tank, and will (in hindsight) probably replace the Heavy Weapons Squad (Still being an elites chioce)
    Sentinals are to give some mobile support to the army and to tie them in with the Imperium for fluff.

    Also, what are Bombots and mechs?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)06:26 No.13504443
    Alternative working suggestion:

    Squat Combat Squad

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    Squat 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 9 5+
    Veteran 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 7 5+

    1 Veteran Leader (Fancy Title can be determined later)
    9+ Squats (additional can be bought)

    -Flak Armour
    -Close Combat Weapon
    -Frag Grenades
    -Krak Grenades
    The Veteran Leader has additionally:
    - Melta Bombs

    Veteran Leader
    -Power Weapon 10pts
    -Laspistol free
    -Bolter/Bolt Pistol 2pts

    Replace any number of Lasguns with the following
    -Grenade Launcher 5 pts
    -Meltagun 10pts
    -Plasma Gun 15pts
    -Heavy Bolter 10pts
    -Missile Launcher 15pts
    -Multi-Melta 15pts
    -Plasma Cannon 25 pts
    -Lascannon 30 pts

    In that sense the basic Squat troop formation would work similar to a SM Devastator squad, except they have lower BS and no Power Armour. This also carries the limitation that if you mix Heavy Weapons some of them might be wasted attacking a particular foe. Optionally restrict the number of non-Heavy Bolters that can be had.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)06:31 No.13504455

    Just doing some reading, this is essentially how 2nd ed Thunderers work, unlimited special/heavy weapons.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)06:34 No.13504464

    Mech is short for Mechanized Infantry. In a general sense it stands for all kinds of heavy vehicles, APCs, Tanks, etc.

    Bombots - here have a look at this:

    They have a really interesting Codex Squats btw. Everybody participating should have a look at their work.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)06:57 No.13504543
    It's pretty alright.
    I'm a little let down by the lack of any unit entry besides Heavy though.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)06:59 No.13504553

    Quite a good list, some good ideas.
    I like the idea of limited transport options however. Hades Breaching Drills can deploy squads where you need them, but once they are deployed thats it.

    Bombots are similar to Grot Bommaz for my Grot Rebellion Army in the works. Would probably be easier to give Squats access to Cyclops Demo Vehicles.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)07:05 No.13504570
    The question is this: we want to be different, right? In what way?

    My thinking is this: we build a standard old-school squat army as foundation and added hillarious stuff on top of it.

    And yes I want to see rules for squats riding on top of tanks. That would be just in the spirit of what I just suggested. That and lots of explosives.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)07:07 No.13504575
         File1294920435.jpg-(83 KB, 750x600, angry5.jpg)
    83 KB
    slogan "think of them as little angry marines"
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)08:30 No.13504872
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)09:44 No.13505198
    i think this should be an army using lots of blast template weapons
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)11:20 No.13505815

    > appear aturcis

    yes, appear!
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)12:58 No.13506688
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/13/11(Thu)13:01 No.13506707
    Well, I see that we've got some movement on things. Interesting.

    But we're still casting about looking for something specific to make Squats unique and interesting.
    So let's create a list of the things we've heard so far.
    1. Robot/Drone users
    2. Squads with unlimited Heavy weapons
    3. meltas and multimeltas everywhere.
    4.Slow and purposeful everywhere
    5. BS 3, however all of their weapons are twinlinked.
    6. 5 inch move
    7.motorbikes with chainsaws attached!
    8. slow moving demolition type army
    9.slogan "think of them as little angry marines"
    10.i think this should be an army using lots of blast template weapons''

    If I've missed some theme ideas, please point them out so I can add it to the list. The thing is we need to nail down what makes Squats different.

    Now, there is one thing that I'd like to suggest for Squats to help reconcile the WS BS debate. (that some people want WS4 BS3 and others want WS4 BS4 for base troopers.
    Why not use the fluff here, that because Squats are... well... kinda short and stocky and clumsy looking when moving (and slow) that when on the move they are WS4 BS3, and when stationary they are WS4 BS4. Maybe call it a special rule (Stalwart defender or something) That when on the move their short stocky stature hurts their BS, but when they've occupied a position (and aren't moving around a lot) they can focus on their task of firing with precision. Maybe have it affect their close combat too.
    It's just a suggestion... and does sort of play into their theme of being strong stationary defenders, but not as good when it comes to lumbering around.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)13:26 No.13506934

    Really, check out this link, it's good:

    I think this should have an impact on our codex. We should try to make it stand out. Which means we need some good ideas.

    > 1. Robot/Drone users

    No problem with that.

    > 2. Squads with unlimited Heavy weapons


    > 3. meltas and multimeltas everywhere.

    I like melta weapons but i don't see people getting all these melta squats. as an option maybe.

    > 4.Slow and purposeful everywhere

    It's a simple way to make them slow using existing rules.

    > 5. BS 3, however all of their weapons are twinlinked.

    not my cup of tea but no strong opposition.

    > 6. 5 inch move

    See 4.

    > 7.motorbikes with chainsaws attached!

    Chainsaws? Chainswords!

    > 8. slow moving demolition type army


    9.slogan "think of them as little angry marines"


    10.i think this should be an army using lots of blast template weapons''


    Not sure if going through it bullet by bullet helps though. The whole is more than the sum of parts and all that.

    First thing is: what slot do we want them to occupy? If it's: less shooty than tau but very shooty, we have one theme.
    We'd have to ask ourself: shooty in what way and the general consensus seems to be that it's heavy weapons.

    So what heavy weapons? Heavy Bolter is a must as they are the favourites in the old fluff and some people will have a number of those in their possession. But what else? Melta? Or rather some template weapons? Flamers, Plasma Cannon, Frag Missiles?

    And after that? What do we build around a core of gritty, slow moving, angry dwarves with lots of heavy weapons?

    Whether we use bots or tanks or lots of artillery, (or all of it) that should be determined by the general feel of the army.

    > Sufferin energy

    They must.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)13:33 No.13506999
    >1. Robot/Drone users
    I think robots should be included, but barely.
    >2. Squads with unlimited Heavy weapons
    Unlimited as in no limits on how many models per squad can be upgraded with a heavy weapon? Imokwiththis.jpg
    >3. meltas and multimeltas everywhere.
    I like the idea, but maybe not everywhere as such, but have them featured more often than most armies.
    >4.Slow and purposeful everywhere
    I like this idea.
    >5. BS 3, however all of their weapons are twinlinked.
    Not sure about this one if I'm honest.
    >6. 5 inch move
    Yes! It makes perfect sense.
    >7.motorbikes with chainsaws attached!
    >8. slow moving demolition type army
    I like this one, how would it work?
    >9.slogan "think of them as little angry marines"
    I need artwork on the Angry Squats.
    10.i think this should be an army using lots of blast template weapons''
    I agree with this one, to a degree.

    An idea I had, is why not make every unit upgradable with a variety of different shields with varying effects (and they reduce movement by an inch)? For example, one could give an invulnerable save, another could give a really good armour save against shooting attacks, another could work like a good armour save against shooting AND slow down enemies in combat with noxious fumes etc.... Just an idea I'm throwing in, probably just another throwaway one though.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)13:48 No.13507149

    How much tanks?
    How much bots?
    Hot much cannons and stuff? (Mole mortars, thudd guns, etc)

    As for little angry marines, the idea of various squat factions hating various other factions has been thrown around. How about this: the new squats have preferred enemy (whoever). They blame whateve forces they oppose for having a hand in the tyranid invasion or allying with/supporting those who are responsible. Might sound op but let's not forget the idea that they close combat mainly through good stats and won't have many fancy weapons. The usual weapon will be a close-combat weapon (axe, sword).
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)13:48 No.13507150
    If you want all the weapons to be twin linked your looking at 20 points a melta-gun, plus it effectively gives them BS 4.5.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)14:19 No.13507365

    Perhaps not all but only a general option for all melta weapons? That way every melta could be made into twin-linked. At a cost.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/13/11(Thu)14:58 No.13507646
    How about this....
    You can upgrade every member of any squad of regular squat troopers to have a heavy weapon, and then pay MORE and make it a twin linked heavy?

    The appeal of this should be obvious. Massive shooty with an effective increase to chance to hit.

    Plus, holy shit the possibility of massive damage becomes hilarious. They might not have great armor, but holy shit can they hit HARD.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)15:06 No.13507732
    well, I vote for few bots only, tank spam as an option but if so they should be slow and hard-hitting and steamrolling the enemies, cannon spam should be a common option.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/13/11(Thu)15:07 No.13507745
         File1294949271.jpg-(448 KB, 1072x1502, squat army list.jpg)
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    Here's the original RT entry for a squat combat squad (see pic) in it we can get our

    WS 4 BS 4 S3 T 4 W 1 I 2 A 1 Ld 9 Sv 5+ that we've pretty much settled on for your basic warrior squat.

    And in here we get automatic crag, crack and melta bombs (which make sense, these are a fucking demolition army)
    1 leader 7 troopers, and we see that you could give each squat as many heavy weapons as you want.

    I'd change the squat standard weapon to a Bolters though. Las rifles just make no sense for squats.

    I'd say give a cost for upgrading the basic weapon to any of the following.
    Conversion Beamer
    Grenade Launcher
    Heavy plasma
    Heavy Stub
    Las Cannon
    Missile Launcher
    Grav gun
    and then give a cost to then upgrade each further to twinlinked.

    End result would give them an interesting and unique feel for the table top
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)15:11 No.13507779

    old minis have lasguns though. and we need additional cheap bodies to soak incoming fire if we treat them like devastators.

    how about veteran units with more advanced weaponry?
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/13/11(Thu)15:16 No.13507818
    err WS 4 BS 3 sorry about that.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)15:17 No.13507829

    Conversion Beamer should be reserved for HQ.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/13/11(Thu)15:23 No.13507875
    >>old minis have lasguns though. and we need additional cheap bodies to soak incoming fire if we treat them like devastators.

    I'll address the las guns in a sec. But for the cheap bodies to soak up hits... make them cheap before you upgrade, and give the option to add shields or better armor to let them soak up hits.
    If you don't upgrade them, they shouldn't cost much.

    >>how about veteran units with more advanced weaponry?

    You mean hearthguard and thunderers? That's kinda the point to them.

    But I get what you're saying that's why I put up that huge list earlier in the thread of possible units.

    One thing though, we need to have BOTH Living Ancestors and Ancestor Lords. Every other race with psykers has at least two levels to them a lower and an upper level psyker. So having LA and AL's is a must.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)15:25 No.13507886
    squat lasguns should be s4 ap-
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)15:26 No.13507902
         File1294950399.jpg-(45 KB, 360x480, img20091027235432937.jpg)
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    >>glance through thread
    >>all pictures from 20+ years ago

    here's some recent squats
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)15:27 No.13507911
         File1294950460.jpg-(52 KB, 540x360, img20090529233707454.jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)15:28 No.13507913

    no prob. the way is see it, the standard is lasguns because they are cheap mixed with heavy weapons which will be a point sink. how do you address the issue of mixed heavy weapons? if a lascannon and a heavy flamer shoot at the same target, most likely one of them will be wasted.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)15:30 No.13507930

    good stuff. want 5e rules.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)15:30 No.13507932
         File1294950611.jpg-(50 KB, 360x480, img20091203004905462.jpg)
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    could see it as a...

    ws bs s t w i a ld sv
    4 3 4 4 1 3 2(3) 10 -
    two ccw's
    furious charge, feel no pain, rage, fleet
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)15:31 No.13507941
         File1294950671.jpg-(84 KB, 640x327, dreadnought_06.jpg)
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    not squats, but the guy also has a dorfs army
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/13/11(Thu)15:34 No.13507969
    >>13507886 squat lasguns s4 ap

    took the words out of my mouth.

    They're known for their use of age of strife tech. Give them las guns with higher power ratings.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)15:34 No.13507978
         File1294950895.jpg-(49 KB, 360x480, img20091014012728558.jpg)
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    and a suspicious commissar
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)17:13 No.13508902
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)17:17 No.13508952
    A theme that has been kicking around my head is that Squats don't have a lot of long range direct fire weapons, but are devastating up close, (meltas everywhere, upgunned las rifles) but also have ordinance out the wing-wang. Thud guns, mole mortars, and offboard artillery. Perhaps instead of sentinels as Fast Attack they have a true mining suit walker with deep strike. Pops up almost anywhere with short range weapons, but once deployed is tough to move.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)17:24 No.13509015

    Yeah but if one weakness of them is low maneruverability and you give them short range weapons, they'll get pwned and playing with them won't be lots of fun.

    Perhaps that's the best way to approach the theme issue: what way of playing Squats will be most fun? I would say: shooting at your enemy with heavy weapons while they are away and blowing them up with grenades and meltabombs, etc when they come close.

    How will the enemies have fun playing against squats? By outmaneuvering them and by charging them and ripping them slowly apart in close combat.

    My 2 cents.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)17:28 No.13509065
    Also I am against Tyranid War Veterans. Two reasons:

    a) We decided that the Squats had evaded the nids.
    b) Nids are on the armies the Squats should struggle against (close combat monsters)
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/13/11(Thu)17:38 No.13509190
    >>13509015Perhaps that's the best way to approach the theme issue: what way of playing Squats will be most fun? I would say: shooting at your enemy with heavy weapons while they are away and blowing them up with grenades and meltabombs, etc when they come close.

    >>How will the enemies have fun playing against squats? By outmaneuvering them and by charging them and ripping them slowly apart in close combat.

    That pretty much nails down what we're trying to put together for Squats. The thing is, how to make them flavorful as a race for play.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)17:43 No.13509258

    let's keep the lasguns for now tho. id like to see a conversion of the old army list into the new organizational structure first.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)17:46 No.13509287

    I agree, kind of. I'm saying they should have long range attacks, longer than most, but it shouldn't be direct fire. They should have excellent long range ordinance that is very difficult to defend against. Leave the direct fire ordinance to the Tau.

    I should also say that when I say short range weaponry, I mean 24", not 12" or 6". Get with the little bugger's zone of contol and they'll mess your stuff up, outside it, and it's raining steel.

    Just my 2 Eagle's worth.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)17:47 No.13509305

    So what's the thought on the above?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)18:19 No.13509648
    I like it. Sounds fun to play.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)18:35 No.13509855
    Oh gods, I remember the last thread. Nice to see it continuing on.

    Godspeed, space stunties! Godspeed
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/13/11(Thu)18:48 No.13509997
         File1294962527.jpg-(32 KB, 438x370, thunderhawk001.jpg)
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    Some new possible units.

    Squat Thunderhawk fast assault bike.
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/13/11(Thu)18:53 No.13510052
         File1294962793.gif-(135 KB, 236x250, sfogre.gif)
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    Ogryn Bone 'ead. Squat ally.
    >> Dispatch !!Th7c6TGosKf 01/13/11(Thu)20:46 No.13511443
    Added lesser hero units and replaced heavy weapons squad with Mortar Squad (3-5 mortar teams). Also made Hades 1-2 per FOC slot.

    So replace them with veterans or Guild Warriors perhaps? I would like to keep Tyranic War Vets though, possibly as a special character type unit.

    Another thing, I was thinking that instead of firing all heavy weapons on the move, we can just give that to Heavy Bolters (ala Deathwatch), because firing AT weapons or the move doesnt sit right.

    >> Anonymous 01/13/11(Thu)21:57 No.13512168
    I love it when /tg/ gets shit done!
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)00:29 No.13513861

    Well, I wouldn't try to veto Nid Vets. Just saying that I am personally not too fond of them and why. Also they smell too much like Ultramarines.

    More later.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)02:37 No.13515174
    i was thinking about giving the cannons, mortars, etc the option of some kind of force field for protection. just like in 1e.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)03:49 No.13515673
    Looking through http://n.1asphost.com/squats/codex/armoury.html , I'm curious what do purity seals or bionics do as there are no mentions of them in the current SM codex.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)05:17 No.13516138
    it's from 40k 3e.

    purity seals allowed you to roll an additional d6 on fallback and choose. bionics essentially allowed you to roll a d6 at the start of your next turn for each casualty with bionics. on a 6, the model came back to life with 1 wound.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)09:10 No.13517400

    Busy today, more later?
    >> Ifuritasfan !!wGT+m5Wy6r3 01/14/11(Fri)10:59 No.13518130
    I'm thinking that a veto on Nid war vets isn't such a bad idea.

    The idea we've all settled on is that the Squats avoided the Nids. So why would there be squat vets of that war?

    For one, if their race left their homeworlds, then that'd leave any defenders MASSIVELY short (pardon the pun). Meaning noone running the munitions factories to provide them news ammo, noone manning the hospitals to heal them, noone even growing food to feed these armies. You have to think logistically and logically about this.

    So anyone left behind would have to have lots of supplies and a reason to be there.

    Finally, if they were there, then for there to be vets, they'd have to have beaten the Nids that attacked their worlds, or had run away from them. And where would they run to if the rest of their race had already taken off?

    Simply put, nid vets need to be able to make sense, and kinda don't.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike the idea... but we need a reason why it would work.

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