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  • File : 1268329054.jpg-(425 KB, 635x900, Koishi Stuff.jpg)
    425 KB The Intelligence/Wisdom psion is an underdog to the Intelligence/Charisma psion. Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)12:37 No.8527306  
    It was suggested that this analysis, originally posted in >>8526666, could use its own thread.

    I have thoroughly examined the psion class entry of the Player's Handbook 3, and I must say, I am profoundly dissatisfied by the Intelligence/Wisdom psion. From a mechanically holistic viewpoint, the Intelligence/Charisma psion is generally superior to it for the following reasons:

    • Targeting Will inherently results in more accuracy than targeting Fortitude and Reflex. Strength and Constitution tend to be the highest ability scores of most monsters, especially the Large, Huge, and Gargantuan creatures that populate supplements. As Peter Schafer comments in page 103 of Dragon Magazine #381, "It never feels right for a dragon to have a weak Fortitude. These are enormous monsters!", connote that anything above Medium size must have a good Fortitude defense. Dexterity tends to be relatively high as well, with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma usually being dumped by many a monster. This results in Fortitude being the highest non-AC defense and Will being the lowest in most cases. This is proven by a set of statistics (www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html) that show that the creatures in the Monster Manual, on average, have Fortitude equal to their level +12.90, Reflex equal to their level +11.54, and Will equal to their level +10.98.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)12:38 No.8527319
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    • The Wisdom-based riders being tied to forced movement is inherently worse than the Charisma-based riders being keyed to penalties. Seldom shall a -6 penalty to an elite or solo monster's attack rolls or defenses be considered redundant, but often shall a 6-square push be overkill, as all that was needed was a 2-, 3-, or 4-square push. A higher Wisdom modifier results in diminishing returns. Speaking of which, the Intelligence/Charisma psion specializes in a myriad range of effects, from attack roll debuffing to defense debuffing to condition imposition to forced movement, whereas the vast majority of Intelligence/Wisdom powers bring to bear mainly forced movement with minor variations.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)12:39 No.8527327
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    • The at-will attack powers of the Intelligence/Wisdom psion are not very potent compared to those of the Intelligence/Charisma psion. As far as level 1 at-will powers go, there is no contest whatsoever between Dishearten and Mind Thrust versus Force Punch and Kinetic Trawl. The former two offer prime control in the form of defensive debuffing and offensive debuffing, whereas the latter two are... a melee 1 power and a ranged power that pulls the enemy closer to the 4-hit-point-per-level controller. Wonderful. Dishearten and Mind Thrust are so effective and economical, in fact, that it would be optimal for an Intelligence/Charisma psion to keep them all the way to level 30. On the other hand, the Intelligence/Wisdom psion must settle for level after level of so-so powers, most of which are forced movement in various stripes and all of which target either Fortitude or Reflex. Burning Flux at level 3 is wonderful Intelligence/Wisdom power, but it is also the level wherein the Intelligence/Charisma psion becomes talented at debilitating forced movement thanks to Betrayal, which she shall keep until level 23, whereupon it is to be replaced by the tricky, potentially dominating power that is Sudden Control.

    • While the Intelligence/Wisdom psion slows, immobilizes, and shoves around with her daily attack powers, the Intelligence/Charisma psion removes threats via dazing, stunning, and domination. It is very difficult to compete with Mind Blast (9), Dominate (15), Thrall (25), and Soul Break (29).
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)12:41 No.8527339
    I suggest that this shit should stay in its fucking thread.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)12:41 No.8527341
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    • The Intelligence/Charisma psion can opt for Far Hand and Forceful Push in place of Distract and Send Thoughts. Forceful Push is currently broken due to being able to negate an enemy melee or close attack, mind you, making it appealing for an Intelligence/Charisma psion. No powers, feats, paragon paths, epic destinies, magic items, or rituals whatsoever call for a specific Discipline Focus, and so there is no harm in selecting Telekinetic Focus and resorting to Intelligence/Charisma powers.

    • Intelligence/Charisma psions have access to heroic-tier Resplendent Gloves, a level 5 item that costs only 1,000 gp and applies 2 extra damage onto any attack that targets Will. Intelligence/Wisdom psions do not have an equivalent item.

    • Intelligence/Charisma psions opting for an orb can take up a Crystal Orb superior implement, gaining a +2/+3/+4 bonus to damage rolls for *all* of their Will-targeting attacks that roll for damage, as well as a +1 bonus to attack rolls against Will. Intelligence/Wisdom psions, on the other hand, must settle for the Petrified Orb, which gives them a +2/+3/+4 bonus to damage rolls for *most* of their powers that roll for damage (this does not include Burning Flux, one of the few powers that they have going for them) and, rather than increasing their reliability, adds another square to the forced movement overkill.

    • Intelligence/Charisma psions opting for an orb can gain a bonus to damage rolls through feats such as Dark Fury, Psychic Focus, and Dual Mind Strength. As far as I can tell, there is no feat whatsoever that provides a feat bonus to damage rolls with force powers.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)12:46 No.8527387
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    • Intelligence/Charisma psions can select the Psychic Lock paragon feat, which greatly improves their control potential, as it harasses enemies that they hit with -2 attack penalties. Intelligence/Wisdom psions are instead offered Inescapable Force, which comes into play against only insubstantial creatures.

    • Intelligence/Charisma psions can multiclass into bard for the Life Singer paragon path, which offers them a fabulous set of powers and, at level 16, the ability to reroll attacks against Will, possibly with a +2 bonus for powers such as Betrayal and Mind Blast. Multiclassing into cleric and entering the Divine Oracle paragon path can serve as a lesser substitute. This paramountly outclasses anything that the Intelligence/Wisdom psion could ever hope for with respect to paragon paths.

    • There exist four Intelligence/Charisma races: the changeling, the gnome, the shardmind, and the tiefling. On the other hand, the only two Intelligence/Wisdom races in the system are the deva and the shardmind. More mechanical diversity is given to the Intelligence/Charisma psion in this regard. Also, shardminds are nudged towards the Intelligence/Charisma build due to their Psychic Focus heroic racial feat, which grants them a +2/+3/+4 bonus to damage rolls with psychic powers.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)12:50 No.8527423
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    In summary, the Intelligence/Charisma psion is more mechanically endowed than the Intelligence/Wisdom psion to a concerning degree. The Psionic Power supplement should amend this gap, or so we should all hope. Incidentally, I had prophesied the fate of the Intelligence/Wisdom psion approximately a month and a half ago:
    >Psion Class Feature: Kinetic Focus: I foresee an ill future for this class build. The Telepathy Focus psion is the substantially more well-supported build, thanks to options such as the Mindwarp Staff of Unfailing Talent (see below), Resplendent Gloves, the Phrenic Crown, and the Psychic Lock paragon feat. Additionally, Will has been statistically proven (through analyses of the Monster Manual and the Monster Manual 2) to be the lowest of the three non-AC defenses on average, with Fortitude and Reflex, of course, being the higher ones that the Kinetic Focus psion tends to attack. Kinetic Trawl and Force Hammer are underwhelming at-will powers as well.

    It appears that my prognostication had came to pass.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)13:22 No.8527796
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    Addendum: There is definitely an issue in the design of the Intelligence/Wisdom psion, which is themed around telekinesis and manipulation of force, when its single most effective at-will power throughout the heroic tier and one of its prime power selections at the paragon and epic tiers is a discipline with the *fire* keyword, Burning Flux at level 3.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)13:24 No.8527818
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    It wasn't suggested, but it's fact that this week is NO TOUHOU WEEK, and everyone who uses touhou pictures during the week is a retarded idiot.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)13:37 No.8527976
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    U mad.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)13:40 No.8528010
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    He mad.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)13:56 No.8528202
    Thanks for posting this.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)13:58 No.8528223
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    Touhoufag is fine by me.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)17:27 No.8531130
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)17:56 No.8531618
    >a melee 1 power

    But it's a Force Punch! That sounds a bit like Falcon Punch, right...?

    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)20:29 No.8533702
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    Addendum: Intelligence-based powers with Wisdom-based riders are present in most levels for daily attack powers. These are the powers that Intelligence/Wisdom-based psions are "supposed" to take. Yes, such a psion can opt for Will-targeting attacks instead, but she would not be able to use them to the same extent as the Intelligence/Charisma psion, who is likely to have augmented her talents with psychic attacks with options such as Psychic Lock, a psychic damage feat, Resplendent Gloves, and a paragon path such as the Life Signer or the Divine Oracle. An Intelligence/Wisdom psion can have all of these as well, but then they shall apply only on a small subset of her powers rather than more or less all of her powers.

    As further insult to injury, two daily attack powers of the Intelligence/Wisdom psion target *AC*, Telekinetic Maul (5) and Crushing Bludgeon (15). It is not as though their hit effects justify their low accuracy, as the results of a hit are embarrassingly underwhelming.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:07 No.8534366
    Hi Touhoufag. Thanks for this.

    I don't have a PH3 yet, but I was looking at making a wizard for an upcoming game (DM has not responded to initial nor range of levels). How does the psion stack up in comparison? And is all the errata against the wizard a decisive factor in this (for instance, I hear that using all the errata it's impossible to make a good solo-encounter based wizard)?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:07 No.8534381
    >>Changling mind-bending psion

    Move over changling rogue, you just got outclassed in the "BEST SPY" category.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:19 No.8534612
    TF, you still there?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:23 No.8534678
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    The Intelligence/Charisma psion and the wizard as a whole are roughly equivalent at fulfilling the controller role. Though the Orb of Imposition may have lost its vigor, it can be used to enhance encounter attack powers such as Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation, Orbmaster's Umbral Assault, and Orbmaster's Insuperable Lethargy. Other Arcane Implement Masteries, such as the Staff of Defense and the Orb of Deception, are definitely worth considering as well.

    However, my main issue with the Intelligence/Charisma psion is its lack of diversity. Whereas, say, the wizard has a wide variety of optimized builds available to it, this is what the creation process of an optimum Intelligence/Charisma psion looks like: pick an Intelligence/Charisma race; select Unarmored Agility as your level 1 feat, Superior Implement Training (Crystal Orb or Accurate Staff) as your level 2 feat, and Versatile Expertise as your level 4 feat; purchase Resplendent Gloves for yourself; equip yourself with a Staff of Ruin augmented by a Siberys Shard of the Mage if you had opted for a staff instead of an orb; keep the Dishearten and Mind Thrust at-will powers throughout literally your entire career as a player character; pick out only powers that target Will, preferably ones with the psychic keyword; when you reach the paragon tier, enter either the Life Singer or the Divine Oracle for a paragon path and take the Psychic Lock paragon feat. That is how nearly every fully-optimized Intelligence/Charisma psion is developed, and it is dull, especially the part where you keep Dishearten and Mind Thrust all the way to level 30.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:32 No.8534850
    Thank you. I was hoping that the Psion would prove better than the wizard in terms of fun to play, the same way it did in 3rd edition. However, after reading your post it seems that I'll be playing a wizard for this game--and hoping that Psychic Power brings more decent options for the Psion to the table.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:34 No.8534908
    the wizard still wins out by being able to multiclass/hybrid well with anything that uses the Int. The psionic classes really don't play well as hybrids besides other psi classes... except there is no other Int based psionic classes, so the Psion's shit out of luck, While Wizard can happily make great builds with warlords, artificers, swordmages, warlocks, and invokers.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:35 No.8534927
    Today I was going to do a classic rant on account that its the day The Wench heads back to Canada. But I decided that instead I'd be writing about a fairly classic topic, something I haven't ranted about in a long time: RPG.net.

    RPG.net has changed a lot in the past year or so; they've moderated considerably their moderation policy (pardon the pun) and they've gotten rid of some of the worst offenders of the modclique; the clique's power has been broken, it would seem, largely because they saw people leaving the site in droves. In some part it was due to theRPGsite, and the fact that we demonstrated that you can have intelligent discussion that is MORE interesting by virtue of being unmoderated. But it was also, and much more directly, due to the fact that people were just sick and fed up with the atmosphere of total repression on there, where you couldn't say anything meaningful about anything without someone reporting it as a "group attack" or a "hurt my feelings attack", nor could you express any opinion contrary to the "mainstream" (the "mainstream" for RPG.net, namely its modclique) without the modclique coming down on you for being "intentionally obtuse" or a "disruptive influence" that hurts their "emotionally safe environment". In other words, you dared to disagree, so you're going to be banned.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:36 No.8534944
    Those times have passed, mostly, and so there's been less reason to write about RPG.net in recent days. But they're in the process of purging a ton of their old Tangency threads, and that creates some interesting historical information. It gives us a chance to see how the gently caress RPG.net got to where it got with the modclique, how it went so horribly wrong.
    Because there was a time when RPG.net was essentially unmoderated, and where the general atmosphere was one of open flame-wars unlike anything theRPGsite has ever seen. And somehow it went from that to the police state we know now. The question "how did that happen?", how did it get subverted into a place where a tiny minority were in total control of the discussion, the opinion, and the atmosphere of the place come to pass?

    Threads like the "no report pledge" thread where Gareth Michael-Skarka was trying to fight against the rising of the tide present a very clear indication of how things fell apart. By the time that was posted, admins like Cessna had managed to allow themselves to buy into the idea that they needed to bring in people like Darren or Eric Brennan into mod status, and that measures had to be taken to make RPG.net into an "emotionally safe environment".
    So things changed from where people would work things out among themselves by argument or discourse into a situation where "reporting" had become the main past-time of a significant group in the board. This group had influenced things to make it that you could report another poster for hurting your feelings, and they had worked it out so that there would be moderators friendly to them in place to ban said people.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:36 No.8534954
    And then, of course, they set about to using the Report function. By tattling on everyone they didn't like, as often as they possibly could, they were making a concerted effort to purge the boards of their ideological opponents, while those who were believers in free speech were not inclined to report anyone.

    That meant that the free-speech advocates were automatically at a disadvantage of massive proportions; unwilling to report others, they were being reported on by those who hated them for not wanting the board to be moderated. It was only a matter of time until all of these people were hounded out.

    Cessna and Darren have posted to the "No Report Pledge" thread as if it somehow vindicates their moderation policies, Cessna pointing out that allegedly, GMS himself reported a dozen people from that pledge.
    Well, for starters, I'd say that this thread pretty well DAMNS you, Cessna. It shows with such clarity how assholes from what was to become the modclique came in, provoked those who were advocates of free speech, tried to disrupt an effort to speak out against their pogroms and secret policing, and generally tried every trick in the book to manipulate or intimidate those who didn't want RPG.net to turn into what it eventually turned into. It was nothing short of visionary, that thread, in that GMS was trying to argue against a future that most definitely came to pass, one where in the name of "security" NO ONE on RPG.net could safely speak about ANYTHING, unless they had a Mod badge on.
    And then you have the gall to point out that GMS was reporting people? This was like tying one hand behind his back and going out and telling him to fight; then accusing him of dirty tactics because he wasn't standing still when they beat him.
    His reports weren't an effort to tattle, they were self-defense, trying to shout out against the system.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:37 No.8534962

    Way to start spamming and bumping a thread that was dying.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:37 No.8534971
    Finally, theRPGsite, just as it played a part in bringing the Modclique down, has served to vindicate not just all those who were banned in RPG.net but all of those who were argued down with the claim that moderation and reporting and banning were required to create a site where people could have interesting conversations; or where it was claimed that people are incapable of policing themselves and needed a system of reporting and punishment.

    Those who argued this were wrong, and many of them were more than wrong, they were intentionally lying about their motives and how far they wanted it to go, as part of an effort to take over RPG.net. TheRPGsite is our revenge against them and how they ruined what was once a fine and free discussion forum.

    Incidentally, if anyone notes any other threads that make a good historical accounting for how RPG.net turned fascist, please point them out.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:38 No.8535001
    Try not being fully optimized for more fun!
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:40 No.8535016
    Guys, the crapflooder is the same faggot it's always been. Report, screencap, email Moot, move on.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:42 No.8535060
    I'd make this an even longer, better organized post, but it's getting late so I'll just put up some random notes I jotted down while reading the thread.

    Concerning where the combat matrices were in 1E - just being in the DMG doesn't mean that players weren't still given that information as a matter of course. Saying that the DMG is for DM's and players should keep their busybody noses out of it didn't mean that all the info in there was "forbidden knowledge". It meant that the players should be letting the DM run the game, not having the players run the DM.

    Don't read too much into the lack of organization and coordination between the 1E PH and DMG. As Gary stated therein this was all very piecemeal stuff being pulled together from various existing sources as well as new added stuff. That is to say that Gary and other DM's had been using a lot of it. But then again, he later admitted that some parts he definitely did NOT use and were included only to appease others who DID want such information. The fact that some stuff that probably SHOULD have gone into the PH instead went to the DMG only indicates that the release of the MM, PH, and DMG were each a YEAR apart - the game was being written AS it was being released.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:43 No.8535072
    The downside of the game being handed over to the players is... the game is being handed over to the players - which means it is gradually being taken OUT of the hands of the DM, in whose hands it had been SOLIDLY placed in previous edtions. With 3E I believe the pendulum swung too far over the course of its printed lifetime from DM to player control, with the DM being seen as subservient to the rules and held IN CHECK by the players manipulation of the rules. In older editions (OD&D and 1E especially) the DM was for practical purposes a "codesigner" who was fully expected to add, modify and delete as he saw fit. It wasn't until the players were presented with practical realities (if not open statements) to the effect of, "These are the OFFICIAL rules, accept no substitutes," that I personally started to chafe as a DM against the shift towards the players.

    In the old days players DID have a different experience when playing the game. By being denied UPFRONT information from the MM and DMG they HAD to approach play from a learn-as-you-go standpoint, and don't expect things to always remain the same. As of 3E it started to become a matter of, these are the rules, the rules do not change, you may as well have access to the lot from the get-go. I feel that much information that has been given over to players IS better left as a mystery to be revealed to them by the DM through active play. That means players should be expected to NOT have access to the MM and DMG.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:44 No.8535097
    If nothing else the downside to the players is that they are OVERWHELMED with information that they are expected to master if they want to be considered as being "good players". I've come to see a lot of complaints from players on the boards about their fellow players ability to "play a fighter PROPERLY" or words to that effect. There isn't supposed to be right/wrong way to play D&D - until there IS because someone wants it to be so.

    A lot of the discussion could be summed up as the continuing struggle of D&D as a rules-heavy game versus D&D as a rules-light game. Both approaches have been tried. The same approach does not work for everyone.

    Rules laywers were a pox on 1E DM's. It only became worse when WotC started treating the rules for D&D in exactly the same way they treated the rules for the competitive game of M:tG. Rules lawyers were given the training, legal precedent, and tacit approval to insist that the DM is not, in fact, ultimately in charge of the game - the rules are.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:44 No.8535108
    I nonetheless have encouraged DM's to be transparant with their rulings and what they do behind the screen. When players know WHY the DM is ruling as he does they have less/no reason to object that he does indeed make the rules.

    The discussion has reminded me that in 1E we came to refer to the PH as, "The Book of Common Knowledge." Mostly it was just as a reminder that players do still need to have a reliable source to refer to that their characters operate under, and it was the one thing the DM couldn't tell them not to look at. At the very least if a DM was going to change/omit information from it there should be a hard copy for players to refer to.

    In 3E the players and DM eventually came to be expected to be held strictly to the same set of rules - which I hold to be total bunk.

    I'm also reminded that during the big runup to the release of 3E and just after I said (a LOT) that 3E should be judged according to how 3E did what it did, not according to how 2E or 1E did it. That is, just because it did things differently didn't make it either superior or inferior. Judge each version of the game by its OWN merits, by what IT purports to do (or doesn't purport to do but does.)

    Lastly, yes it's true in any edition that the DM can make up his own monsters, but that's one of the great fallacies. The DM shouldn't HAVE to make up his own monsters due to the players being GIVEN complete access to monster dat
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)21:45 No.8535124
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    An optimized psion is certainly less diverse and mechanically intriguing to play than an optimized wizard. Alternating between augmented Disheartens and Mind Spikes, with the occasional Betrayal, is not a riveting experience.


    Psions multiclass just as well as wizards, as they are both staff-wielding, Intelligence-based classes, and the Psionic Conventionalist power swap feat allows a psion to cherry-pick implement powers from other classes should she wish to spend a feat slot to do so. The "potential" of the hybrid wizard is not so much a selling point for the wizard itself as it is for the hybrid wizard and whichever hybrid class it is paired with. I do not consider the wizard to have strong hybrid potential due to it retaining low hit points and cloth armor proficiency and losing out on Arcane Implement Mastery (which can be restored only by a feat), a trained skill, and a powerful ritual casting capacit.
    >> キタ━━━━━━(゚∀゚)━━━━━━ !!!!! !!KKQXAky/Sxz 03/11/10(Thu)22:04 No.8535521
    Jesus fuck Touhou, you blew my mind
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)22:55 No.8536620
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    I had ostensibly misread the racial entry for the githzerai, who receive +2 Wisdom and either +2 Dexterity or +2 Intelligence. The third bullet point in this post is to be replaced with the following:

    • There exist four Intelligence/Charisma races: the changeling, the gnome, the shardmind, and the tiefling. On the other hand, the only three Intelligence/Wisdom races in the system are the deva, the githzerai, and the shardmind. Shardminds are nudged towards the Intelligence/Charisma build due to their Psychic Focus heroic racial feat, which grants them a +2/+3/+4 bonus to damage rolls with psychic powers. More mechanical diversity is given to the Intelligence/Charisma psion in this regard.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/10(Thu)23:10 No.8536942
    Good stuff, at least now I won't try a psion that isn't Cha-based.

    Or likely, since they're not flexible, not try one at all.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/10(Fri)00:11 No.8538173
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    You would not receive much more versatility from an Intelligence/Wisdom-based psion. In fact, as explained in the >>8527327, your powers would be both dull and relatively ineffectual. The Intelligence/Charisma psion, at least, wields strong powers to make up for the monotony of Dishearten and Mind Thrust.
    >> HaRoLd ThE PERVY PERV !VHXNnmBapY 03/12/10(Fri)00:16 No.8538273
    >> Anonymous 03/12/10(Fri)02:32 No.8540368
    Hey, Betrayal is pretty fun to use.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/10(Fri)06:32 No.8542721
    Touhoufag, I'd like you a lot more if you posted hentai with all of your exercises of futility.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/10(Fri)07:11 No.8542971
    Sure is balanced in here.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/10(Fri)12:07 No.8545435
    I, for one, find it retarded that the best of the TK utility powers (Intellect Fortress) runs off Charisma.

    Seriously, what.

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