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  • File : 1266691070.gif-(2 KB, 297x216, Vinland_flag.gif)
    2 KB Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:37 No.8189189  
    Alternate history time, /tg/. The short-lived Viking colonies established in North America don't fail. Instead, they're quite successful and grow into a country called Vinland.

    How does this alter world history?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:39 No.8189202
    The timeline now includes the British kicking the asses of the Vinlanders, rather than the Native Americans.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:40 No.8189210
    >Implying punny Americans would beat VIKINGS!!!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:40 No.8189220
    Vikings destroy the world as soon as they get nukes.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:41 No.8189226
    Plunderan, raidan, tradan, cool guyan all 'round.
    Oh and hopefully they don't become beer swelling hippies like Scandinavia these days.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:41 No.8189229
    Judging by the state of Scandinavia in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, about the time the rest of the world would be getting in the fucking game (assuming the norsemen didn't let those southerners in on the whole New World thing), 'Vinland' would likely be steamrolled by the British at some point.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:41 No.8189231
    Canada is now trilingual.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:42 No.8189234
    Nukes would be dishonorable combat. They'd never use them.

    Maybe as melee weapons, though.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:42 No.8189239
    Could go either way. Honestly I lean towards a slightly different Canada today then before and nothing else different. We are talking about thousand year old colonies. Unlikely they wouldn't have switched hands or be assimilated in the 17th-19th centuries.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:42 No.8189240
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    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:43 No.8189244
    Do they still keep contact with Europe? If so, they colonise most of America and become the richest nation in the world, as they are not hindered by any wars and agressive neighbours. If no, they remain medieval until Europeans rediscover and colonise them.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:43 No.8189250
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    >nuclear melee weapons
    ... this idea intrigues me.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:43 No.8189251

    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:44 No.8189261
    Berserkers now charge into battle lugging nuclear devices. Everyone goes to Odin.
    >> Mouse !ScrJwGuP86 02/20/10(Sat)13:45 No.8189276
    Lol, no, Canada is that pathetic speck of land between Alaska and Vinland, or it doesn't even fucking exist. THAT MEANS NO FUCKING FRENCH, FUCK YEAH!

    Seriously though, being farmers and cowboys of the snowy deserts, they would be the polar opposite of modern Scandinavians. They have no anti gun laws, and they are a world power that rivals the US.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:46 No.8189278
    Let us assume that they do, seeing as how Greenland is near enough to facilitate trade and communication.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:46 No.8189288
    So america would be Winland?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:46 No.8189292

    No, because once they get their lebensraum & danegeld, tha Scandifags are all about getting along. They'll learn English

    It's only the French that are arrogant enough to insist on doing things their way in someone else's country.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:48 No.8189310
    Actually, in terms of warfare, Scandinavia remained rather well abreast of the more central European nations during that era.

    Few remember that the Danes, Norwegians and Swedes enjoyed slugging the shit out of eachother in addition to Russia well into the renaissance era. Sometimes other baltic countries got tangled up in the mess as well.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:48 No.8189312
    >I am from Finland

    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:48 No.8189313

    Vin = Wine
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:49 No.8189321
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:49 No.8189326
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    Hell yes, industrialized first world Vinland!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:49 No.8189331
    I always understood it to mean 'flat'.
    >> Mouse !ScrJwGuP86 02/20/10(Sat)13:50 No.8189341
    Yes, this.

    In real life, the Vikings actually made friends with the Natives where they landed. It would truly become a land of equality as the Natives and Vikings started claiming land further south and west. Also: The would mean little to no British America. The Spanish would not have been hindered though. Texas and New Mexico would still be parts of Mexico.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:50 No.8189342
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    awesome happens.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:51 No.8189348
    ... that's not very constructive.

    Scandinavian effect in warfare during the 15'th and 16'th century? Here, have a read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustavus_Adolphus
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:52 No.8189365
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:52 No.8189370

    Nothing says demoralizer like longboats being hauled across plains by angry vikings.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:54 No.8189383
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    wait, so it would be "flat land"?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:54 No.8189384
    Until the Vinlanders conquered them.

    Also: no African slavery.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:54 No.8189388
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    Made this long ago.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:54 No.8189397

    Meaning none of dem niggers at all.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:54 No.8189398
    Integrated with native tribes and crushed the shit out of would-be invaders from the west. After reverse engineering their left over ship-building technology, the Seven United Tribes begins to conquer and colonize Europe.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:55 No.8189409
    and no african slavery means...the africans stay home? Fund the time machine god damnit!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:56 No.8189416
    That wasn't at all what I was implying.

    So. How would 'contemporary' Vinland compare to the contemporary United States?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:56 No.8189417

    Britain looks like a duck in that last frame.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:56 No.8189418
    They should be too busy fighting over whether Finfag is allowed in the club to even notice Sir Britfag.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:57 No.8189423
    >Also: no African slavery.


    African slavery was practiced in europe as early as the 1200s. The Arabs always did it.

    Maybe not the huge platations of the Caribbean and the American South, but it's still gonna happen.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:57 No.8189427
    Exactly. They had one of the best generals of all time and their empire stretched to its greatest extent ever... (about the size of Texas)
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:59 No.8189446
    No African slavery in the Americas. Wasn't I clear enough? Or are you being purposefully obtuse?
    >> Mouse !ScrJwGuP86 02/20/10(Sat)13:59 No.8189447
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    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)13:59 No.8189450
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    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:00 No.8189461
    Would Vinland remain largely pagan as the colonists who founded it would not be embroiled in the Christianization of the homeland?

    Or would they follow suit with northern Europe through continued contact?

    Or maybe it would be a pilgrim type deal where the followers of the old gods flock to Vinland to escape the increasing christianization of the old world.

    In Odin We Trust on the vinDollar?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:00 No.8189462
         File1266692435.gif-(832 B, 250x130, anglan.gif)
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    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:01 No.8189471
    You know folks, the Vikings would probably get their asses handed to them by the Natives. Simply because of terrain. North America is not a very conductive land for mass-infantry marches.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:01 No.8189472
    I'd say it'd have followed a similar trend of growing independent of contact with the old world, then getting carved piecemeal in wars with the European states, eventual revolt, emancipation, and unity through a perioid of bloody civil war. Hard to say what the society and population demographics would look like, but I suspect the bible belt would be having some very fun cults rather than the ghost-impersonating, cousin-impregnating bible thumpers the yanks have now.
    >> Mouse !ScrJwGuP86 02/20/10(Sat)14:01 No.8189478
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    Yes, this is what I mean.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:02 No.8189482
    The problem with Scandinavia is that it always lacked the population to be more than a regional power. Unless Vinland was bolstered by immigration or basically absorbed by the natives who then would face the familiar problems, it wouldn't be able to compete.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:02 No.8189487
    Well let's say that unlike the Our Timeline (OTL) discoverers, this particular band of vikings are of the more conventional variety that don't have anything against eating fish.

    They discover the Grand Banks fisheries. Along with the bountiful supplies of timber, the New England/Maritimes region is a goddamn paradise as far as vikings are concerned.

    They need people to do the fishing and logging year-round though, so they bring in families and the resulting large-scale colonization attracts farming families, who eventually range out as far as the Midwest (which some people in Minnesota will swear to this day that they did in OTL).

    Early Vinland as an untouchable viking stronghold helps Norse dynasties carve up the British Isles. Most modern day Vinlanders have a some Celt as well as a some Skraeling in them.

    Maybe Vinland becomes an actual nation by surviving a war against the Swedish Empire and forming a union of Scandic nations with the Viking British kingdoms, the Free Danes, the Free Norse, the Icelanders, Greenlanders, and the Normans?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:03 No.8189506

    If you have the Vikings Vikingize the peoples of the British Isles (which nearly happened in our history), then that should provide significant enough population; right?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:03 No.8189507
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    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:04 No.8189508
    IIRC, The Norse landed in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. I don't believe there are Norse settlements in Maine, chaps.

    Also, Its a bit of a crap shoot as to what happens. Are they Vikings that are RAWR RAWR WARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, or are they Artisans and Craftsmen? Two very different Scenarios for each.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:04 No.8189509
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    >about the size of Texas
    ... I'm being trolled, right?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:04 No.8189515
    So Vinland essentially becomes a Scandanavian stronghold that is home to all the disollusioned northern Europeans while Europe does its whole 1200 - late 1800's insanity?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:04 No.8189518

    >>Lol no I want to fan wank instead of considering actual historical trends involving the European Colinization process.

    'Vinland' would not stop the English expansion. Just postpone it, as it would be an expensive military campaign versus a privately owned corporate venture.

    Also the Netherlands tried to get in the way of the english. New Amsterdam, lol that worked.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:05 No.8189528
    Britain, instead of sending their rabble to Australia, sends it to Vinland, either by force or by trading them as slaves.
    >> Mouse !ScrJwGuP86 02/20/10(Sat)14:06 No.8189531
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    No, they actually got along with the Natives. What happened was, when they found each other, the Vikings treated them to the standard Viking feast for dinner, then they gave the Natives milk. The Natives drank it, not knowing that they were lactose intolerant. They suffered severe pain that night when they got home, and thought that the Vikings had poisoned them. They then proceeded to NOT befriend the Vikings anymore, and chased them off. What the OP is implying is that none of this happened, instead, the Vikings simply met the Natives without incident, thus providing a safe foothold to start their new nation.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:09 No.8189581
    If you want a Vinland superpower, I'm telling you that the way to go is to have viking culture absorb all of Northern Europe (the UK, Scandinavia, Normandy, Germany, the Benelux countries, etc.) in the early dark ages; which could of happened. So yeah, you don't have pureblood Scandinavians, but people who spend hundreds of years under Scandinavian dynasties and adopt the viking way of life.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:10 No.8189590
    North America is not a very conductive land for mass-infantry marches.

    The American Civil War wants a word with you
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:11 No.8189596
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:13 No.8189632
    So, would a viking-colonized Vinland have led to an early golden age of democracy through the scandinavian Thing tradition?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:16 No.8189664
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:16 No.8189677

    Because a Norwegian colony in Newfoundland would stop the Spaniards and Portugese from raiding Africa and growing sugarcane in the Caribbeean, amirite?

    Oh, sorry, slavery bean and ended with British cotton plantations in Dixie. My bad.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:18 No.8189691
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    Vinlands vikings home pet would be bears.
    Its a fact.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:20 No.8189706
    We'd propably still have slavery, actually. Pre-Christianity Scandinavians didn't mind having slaves in the least.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:29 No.8189806

    This reminds me, isn't the name Welsh basically a word for slave?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:33 No.8189867
    ... okay, I hadn't considered that. You win the round.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:35 No.8189889
    The most important thing that would have happened had Vinland stuck around is that the Native Americans would have been exposed to European diseases five hundred years earlier than they actually were. If smallpox had spread through the eastern seaboard a thousand years ago, the population might have had a chance to rebound by the time the British, Dutch, Spanish etc explorers got there... which would make the relations between the early settlers and the natives very different.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:38 No.8189915
    Basically, having Vinland alone become powerful is unlikely because of Europe. But if you just have a generally stronger age of Vikings, then Vikings can influence European culture and you can have a cosmopolitan Vinland, but still a Vinland.

    Like in the GURPS Midgard timeline. It doesn't wank Scandinavia, it just has the exploits of the Vikings be amped up times ten (for instance with inside help from the Varangian Guard they sack Byzantium).
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:39 No.8189917
    The reason why America became so powerful was because of the steady stream of immigrants for several centuries. If there was only a few colonists from the late iron age that created Vinland, it'd be pretty irrelevant in the long run.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:45 No.8189975

    And an age of vikings on steroids could have opened up sea-routes all over the world centuries earlier than in real life. So if you want to depict a large, powerful Vinland make sure to have large immigrant quarters, lots of different languages and ethnicities, etc.

    Just having the vikings being the glue that knits European, Arabian, and Chinese spheres of influence together and provides the routes that get immigrants from all of them to the New World will be Vinland enough; won't it?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:47 No.8189991

    If it becomes too Valuable, then the Spanish or the British would try to take over those trade routes by force. Small, independent colonies wouldn't last long.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:49 No.8190017
    Viking and Indian mercenaries on Dutch vessels rule the seas, gathering mountains of gold, across Scandinavia and the Netherlands.

    The royal houses of the English, French, Spanish and the Portugese fight a brutal spionage and colony war for the resources.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:50 No.8190022
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    This happens.
    >> General Malcolm Granger !tdu/XtyVrs 02/20/10(Sat)14:52 No.8190055
    >war at sea

    yeah, no
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:53 No.8190066

    Vikings squash Britain, Ottomans squash Latin powers; Vinland gets most of North America (and is filled with tons of people from all over the world, meaning Norse no longer rule it but various Norse customs and bits of language remain in the melting pot), the Ottomans get what we think of as "Latin America" and the Carribbean.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:54 No.8190074
    Does the color mean something in this map?
    like alliance or something?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)14:56 No.8190102
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    Fuck yeah.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:00 No.8190138
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    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:15 No.8190308
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    BUMP for great viking justice
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:17 No.8190331
    Oh shi-


    It's from a SA forums lets play of the Paradox games series, starting as the Hohenzollern family in Crusader Kings: Deus Vult. It's awesome, hilarious, and often completely politically incorrect.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:24 No.8190416
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    Another revision.
    >> northern /k/ommando 02/20/10(Sat)15:31 No.8190499
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    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:34 No.8190530
    So, if Vinland is established as a series of Viking colonies hundreds (thousands?) of years before the pilgrimage of the Mayflower, and assuming that they colonized up and down the East Coast, would the Pilgrims that fled England for the New World integrate with the Vinlanders, thus giving rise to all of the 'American' (now theoretically Vinlander) technological innovations?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:34 No.8190531
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:34 No.8190537
    Fennoscandia was here, Vinland is... a cool guy and possibly a powerful ally.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:35 No.8190548
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    ... I dunno man. Can we drop everything east of Germany? They're pretty useless. And the Brits too. They don't really have anything we'd want. Especially in the department of women. They all look like stressed turkeys.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:35 No.8190552
    What kind of cross is that called? It's not a Celtic Cross...

    It's on the tip of my tongue.
    >> The Black Hand 02/20/10(Sat)15:36 No.8190563

    Unlikely, unless Vinland is also a fairly free country.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:37 No.8190579
    Why wouldn't it be? Contemporary Norse countries are ranked as being more democratic than the United States.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:38 No.8190583

    > beer swelling hippies

    Danes are what we like to call them.
    >> northern /k/ommando 02/20/10(Sat)15:39 No.8190588
    and of course, then there was New Sweden.


    >New Sweden (Swedish: Nya Sverige, Finnish: Uusi-Ruotsi) was a Swedish colony along the Delaware River on the Mid-Atlantic coast of North America from 1638 to 1655. It was centered at Fort Christina, now in Wilmington, Delaware, and included parts of the present-day American states of Delaware, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Along with Swedes and Finns, a number of the settlers were Dutch. Some Germans also came to the colony as soldiers in the Swedish army.

    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:43 No.8190654
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    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:44 No.8190661
    just have the Vikings begin colonization of North America before the 10th century and the colonies took a better foothold for whatever reason. When the christianization of scandinavia took place, most of them decided to GTFO over to Odin's new land (which also lets them skip out on the black death).

    They've got a couple centuries to grow a decent population and mingle with the natives before other European colonization would begin further south.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:44 No.8190667
    It's a variant of the Celtic Cross.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:45 No.8190671
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    ... and then the greedy dutch screwed the whole thing over.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:46 No.8190696
    then when they get word of the black death they say it was Loki pissing on the traitors
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:48 No.8190714
    historyfag here.

    a successful vinlandia colony would, in the greater scheme of things have resulted in major shifts in history.

    in the viing era, it would've been fairly limited. norwegian princes would've still tried to take England, the Danes would've raided, Iceland would've been a democracy...

    iceland itself would've likely prospered a bit more, as a staging point in the sail from the norse world, to Vinland.

    the big changes would've come in the post-viking world. The knowledge of the esistence of the northern americas would have spurred the Haseantic LEague to expand from the Baltic westwards, creating trade lanes with Vinland before Columbus' voyage to the Carribbean in 1492. Clinker-build haseantic Knarr, Cog, and Holks would've sailed west along the northern routes, returning laden with furs and the trade goods that 500 years later would've formed the Hudson Bay Company.

    the scraeling indians would've eventually been tamed, allowing steady migration south and inland, through canada into the northern united states in the same time as the first spanish settlers were landing in the americas.

    the resultant trade would've shifted trade hubs from the mediterranean, to the baltic, with trade fingers up the danube and into Rus, and over to vinland. the economic prosperity of the shift from mediterranean focus that came with the discovery of america would've happened earlier, meaning tht the high medieval and early renaissance would've ocurred in britian, germany and denmark earlier, rather than italy and france.

    distant from the controlling powers of Rome, these new trade hubs would've allowed men like Kepler to do their work unimpeded by the catholic dogma, and science would've driven forward in leaps and bounds.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:49 No.8190720
    In this campaign can I play Finn Finnbeard, the Beard Finn?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:50 No.8190725
    please tell me that simplifies to SCIENCE VIKINGS!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:50 No.8190726

    >the Bear Finn

    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:50 No.8190730
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    Red variant. Which do we prefer?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:50 No.8190731
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:51 No.8190737
    i like the green one better
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:51 No.8190743

    Baltic-to-North-America route means the Renaissance happens in Northern Europe instead of Mediterranean Europe.
    >> northern /k/ommando 02/20/10(Sat)15:52 No.8190747
    in short: VIKINGS make everything better.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:52 No.8190751
    The green one. The red one looks kind of nazi-ish.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:53 No.8190759
    It does. It would make the New World the scientific capital of the globe centuries before it would have otherwise.

    How large would Vinland be? Would it rival the size of the continental United States?
    >> northern /k/ommando 02/20/10(Sat)15:54 No.8190766
    >How large would Vinland be? Would it rival the size of the continental United States?
    in time, perhaps.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:54 No.8190769
    well, you also have to take into account the black death fucking progress up a bit
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:54 No.8190770
    Red one for a war flag, blue one for a naval flag.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:55 No.8190781
    I disagree. Mediterranean will remain more important.

    They're getting spices, silk, china from the Mediterranean.

    What does North America have? Fish? Furs? Timber? Not as valuable.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:56 No.8190783
    that depends on what time period we are talking about and we're making the assumption that Vinland stays unified.

    It's still safe to assume that the rest of Europe would attempt to colonize the southern regions of the Americas
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:58 No.8190798

    I meant Beard Finn, but oh well.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:58 No.8190800
    Thanks. Green on it is.

    We like the design, then?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:58 No.8190802
    Vikings, they're like orks, apart from the spore reproduction thingie.

    Heck, lets have the vikings invent a way to reproduce by spores via future SCIENCE!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:58 No.8190806
    agreed, Vinland really wouldn't change Europe much. They'd be mostly ignored until the Renaissances.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:59 No.8190813
    I'd like to take the cross out of it because Vinland isnt christian
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)15:59 No.8190814
    One*. Do pardon the typo.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:00 No.8190815
    how large?

    I'd say it's fairly unlikely that the vinland settlement would be a massive unified bloc. It s more likely that northern european feudal states would form, probably over large-ish areas, which would trade among each other.
    As the development of scientific principles grows in the northern renaissance, we'd also expect to see industrialisation of the north-eastern seaboard of the US, with the sweedish iron industry being used to create the bessmer process and similar steel-working industries sooner than they actually did.

    Bessmer-bloomery-produced northern european longswords, mass-produced steel, early muskets by 1500, in the elector-states of Vinlandia?

    its more likely than you might think...
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:00 No.8190822
    It's based on the Nordic Cross flags, but I'm willing to take suggestions.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:01 No.8190831

    Well even if it doesn't deter the Meditteranean route, the New World being exploited by the Hansa first would cause a trend of Northern European migration and cross-exchange, wouldn't it?

    And you can have that Northern migration happen at a time when Britain is weak/divided, maybe?

    So Spain and Portugal still get Latin America, but North America is under a Hansa Company long enough to eventually form an independent entity? Maybe have a French colony as neighbors.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:02 No.8190841
    I doubt Vinland would let any of that trickle back to Europe before they managed to come up with it themselves at a later date.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:02 No.8190847
    You're just jealous that I'm swimming in guilders.

    Kekekeke, selling arms to both factions. Ain't it beautiful.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:03 No.8190851
    gb2althistory.com faggot
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:05 No.8190873
    The vikings began their colonization of North America around years 800 to 900.

    European colonization doesn't begin to untill the 1500s.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:05 No.8190876
    Norse (or more accurately, Scandinavian/English/German/Russian) Maritime Canada, New England, and Great Lakes region vs. French Southeast?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:06 No.8190890
    Well if we assume Britain still develops along as it mostly did it might have some colonies around Virginia.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:07 No.8190905

    Isn't the point to save North America from getting British crown colony-ized by having the effects of the Northern route opening up the New World including weakening Britain and making the English just another part of the Northern European migration?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:09 No.8190924
    well, for one, Canada wouldn't be so fucking full of goddamn french half-breed pussies.

    holy fuck do I le-hate canada eh
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:09 No.8190931
    >Isn't the point to save North America from getting British crown colony-ized by having the effects of the Northern route opening up the New World including weakening Britain and making the English just another part of the Northern European migration?

    >Herp, derp, I'm so insecure I have to try to come up with ways to put down the country who built the foundations of my nation....

    fixed that for you, Bubba.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:10 No.8190936

    No, I just mean that British crown colonies aren't gonna be Vinland, whereas if you have a whole bunch of Brits/Germans/Scandinavians/Russians milling around together it could still be Vinland.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:11 No.8190946
    at that point in time, the vikings were the only ones with reliable enough shipbuilding to make the trip through the Northern Route. It wasn't until the 12th century that other European ship designs would have been able to follow.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:15 No.8191007
    well there is Venice at that point, but like hell they would help with anything that would lead to their own importance being diminished
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:17 No.8191030
    All this alternative viking history is great but at the same time heartbreaking if it really could have made things better, feel like a dorf thinking back on glorious time when we weren't so mellow.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:19 No.8191057
    I wonder how the norse religion would change when coming to the americas
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:22 No.8191109
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    put this on the flag

    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:22 No.8191111
    Interesting question. Would they adopt some of the Native animism, do you think?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:24 No.8191130
    It carries neo-Nazi connotations.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:25 No.8191150
    they'd get a long a lot better since they did have a more animistic veiw of things in comparison to Christianity, and the Vikings were a lot more willing to coexist with the natives
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:25 No.8191156

    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:26 No.8191161
    I know, and I have it tattooed on my back. I respect my ancestors, not wank over them with the idea that they were perfect and everyone not them deserves to die.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:27 No.8191178
    yes and? The symbol is all over norse stuff and its a sensible choice regardless of what modern groups are doing with it.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:28 No.8191192
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    viking paganism was already dying out by the time of the first viking raids in the 8th C. by the 10th C, and the norman conquest of britain, Norse Paganism was virtually extinct.

    chances are if vinlandia were to exist, it'd have been settled by the likes of Leif Ericson on his first landings, around the year 1000, and not in the high age of pagan viking raiders, 250 years earlier.

    the settlers woud've been overwhelmingly christian, not pagan.

    so the question should be "how different would that norse christianity have become, completely un-influenced by the papacy in Rome?"

    Pic related. its a viking era stave church.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:28 No.8191198
    I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea.

    I can understand that, but refer to the above.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:30 No.8191226

    yeah. just like the first settlement in north america, which was subject to constant raids.

    just like the contempt and disdain with which the greenlanders regarded the inuit. the greenlanders certainy were christian and there's no reason why the church would not follow the settlers west. the flag that OP is using is a version of the dannebrog, used by all scandinavian christian kingdoms.

    vinland isn't going to be a north american paradise. it's going to be a scandinavian settler society on a par with finland and lapland, where the locals, if they stick around, will be subject to tributes by jarls and petty kings with retinues who can intimidate them. no doubt some of these people will take the long journey east to crusade and come back with some plague rats.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:31 No.8191254
    bah, thats why this is an alternate history

    this time we state that norse paganism wasn't dying out but was quite well entrenched
    >> scared of shadows !!7tJvdfwxbH7 02/20/10(Sat)16:32 No.8191259
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    if you care anything about your heritage, there will always be some shithead that compares you to white supremacists, anon

    better to just bite your tongue instead of hurting them
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:32 No.8191261
    Didn't the golden compass go with that idea?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:32 No.8191267

    There might be a reformation earlier than Luther's time, in such isolation the Catholic church won't be able to put down dissidents. I'd expect it takes the same general direction as in OTL.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:34 No.8191291
    Means foreigner lrn2oldenglish faggot
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:36 No.8191312

    vinland will probably become protestant like the much of the rest of northern europe after luther.

    it may entertain some kind of heresy, but this will be pushed to the margins by newly established bishoprics keen to establish the power of the church in the new territories.

    again: look at what happened in the nordic countries and iceland. these countries were already at the margins of europe. if they did not develop their own strands of christianity, why would vinland do so? like other norsemen, they may believe in crazy things like elves and fairies and house spirits, but the english believed in pixies and elves, and irish believed in fairies and banshees, and this did not have any effect on the domination of the church.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:37 No.8191325
    nonchristian vinland is best vinland

    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:40 No.8191370
    Whaddabout christianity somewhat incluenced by old the old norse religion whatcha call it?
    Thor and Jesus kicking ass togheter with axes and hammers and all that.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:42 No.8191402

    You started it ya crazy Swedish bastard, you know how we are with our colonies.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:43 No.8191409
    agreed - I'd expect that protestantism - or whatever it becomes in the earlier renaissance of such a theoretical baltic-haseantic-centric cultural society - would become the primary defining force.

    truth of the matter is, that a pagan vinlandia would've rapidly been turned upon by the Teutonic Knights, the Hansa princes, and the likes, and forcibly converted, much as pagan lithuania was crushed forcibly by crusades in the 13-14th C.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:43 No.8191419

    it's happened. the old germanic culture has survived in the form of co-opted christian holidays. this has happened across germanic society, to an extent (indeed across all of europe).

    the scandinavians still call XMAS Yule, as do some english speakers. tuesday, wednesday, thursday and friday are named for tyr, odin, thor and freya, respectively.

    old myths survive as folk tales about trolls and witches and demons and what-have-you.
    >> scared of shadows !!7tJvdfwxbH7 02/20/10(Sat)16:45 No.8191432
         File1266702331.jpg-(43 KB, 567x454, John_Bauer-Tyr_and_Fenrir2.jpg)
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    that hurt to read, anon. thor is a very small part of old norse myth

    if I had to mix the white christ myth with old norse myth, wotan would be sieging jesus with an army of jötunn
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:46 No.8191451
    >Whaddabout christianity somewhat incluenced by old the old norse religion whatcha call it?

    that actually happened.
    Baldur was equated to jesus quite regularly, the "white christ", and Odin was an aspect of Jehovah.

    there's plenty of archaeological record of viking burials of people who'd have a crucifix, and a hammer of thor on the same string of glass beads. After all, if one god is good, two gods' blessings are better, no?

    there's actually one string of beads somewhere I seem to recall that's pretty much a collection of everything possible - greek coptic bits, christian, a thor's hammer, another cross, a raven for odin, another cross, another hammer, another cross, etc, etc, each one held apart by a glass bead.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:47 No.8191461
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    In 1107, the King of Norway launched his own crusade, raiding Muslim territories in the Mediterranean and reaching the Holy Land. It didn't make a huge impact on the overall crusading era (the Norwegians ceased to be a part of the enterprise after this), but it met with modest success and bolstered the king's reputation at home.

    King Sigurd was pretty passionate about his holy war, and one wonders if a notable viking settlement in Vinland at that time (about a century after Leif's arrival), still struggling with local American pagans, would have enticed the King to expend his zealous energies elsewhere.

    And thus it was that King Sigurd and his longboats set out for the New World on the Vinland Crusade...
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:50 No.8191496

    Zeon much?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:51 No.8191510

    i'm going on the basis that vinland, being marginal, does not fundamentally alter the course of european history.

    however, your theory does lead to the disturbing prospect of vinland becoming another theatre of HRE warfare and politics in the way the scandinavians were during the wars of religion and gustav adolf.

    there'd no reason why the danes would not end up bringing vinland into the kalmar union and havng them choose sides by being aligned either with sweden or denmark. that will set the stage for centuries of intra-nordic warfare spreading to north america. icelland was small beer, so made little impact (in the same way the north american colonies made little impact in the english civil war), but a large-ish north american kingdom (or kingdoms) might become more of a strategic asset for a danish king or a swedish vasa-pretender.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:52 No.8191513
    Suddenly, vikings raid as Aztec empire.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:52 No.8191515
    >and his longboats set out for the New World

    Damn, I now have the KLF "America: What Time is love" in my head.

    my GF is actually in the video for that, too.
    (yes, I'm an oldfag.)
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:55 No.8191552
    Atleast we don't pussy out of wars the second the terrorists threatens us with terror.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:58 No.8191587
    Tru, tru.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)16:59 No.8191608
    hrm, not sure, I think it would fundamentally shift the focus of northern european history, though it would likely not make major changes, but instead bring major shifts to happen a little faster than they did in reality.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:02 No.8191638

    Depending of course of the relative strength of the North American kingdoms, which by the time of Kalmar union establishment would be three centuries old. If we assume migration from Scandinavia only they likely wouldn't be much at that point however.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:05 No.8191662
    A stronger native resistance

    Learning the brutal ways of the vikings and leeching off their technological advancements at the time would provide the natives a way to at least counter the Vinlanders and eventually bring themselves to viking level technology.

    They're be backwards by the time of Columbus and Cortez but not as much. Plus they'd have some immunities to european diseases.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:06 No.8191670
    Depends if the skraelings/vikings ever ventured down to South America, anyway.

    What would the continent America then be called?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:08 No.8191701
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    Not Zeon enough.

    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:10 No.8191725
    I like to imagine the Vinlanders allying with the Natives and having a couple centuries of inbreeding by the time the continental Europeans show up to start colonizing.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:11 No.8191744
    intermarriage is the term you are looking for
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:12 No.8191762
    >Learning the brutal ways of the vikings
    >leeching off their technological advancements

    At least in the sagas, the Skraelings are capable of being just as "brutal" as Karlsefni and his settlers. In addition, without knowledge of local supplies of iron, the Norse settlers - like in Greenland - would have had only a small supply of iron weapons and little to no mail armor.

    If anything, the Norse would have adopted the native way of warfare. The Norse had never used massed archery, thinking of the bow as a skirmish weapon before the shield walls clashed (at best), but this was ineffective against masses of Skraelings with bows (even without iron arrowheads). Any successful Norse colony would probably have "gone native" and adopted Skraeling warfare almost whole-cloth.

    The Skraelings also had their own interesting weapons, apparently:

    "When they clashed there was a fierce battle and a hail of missiles came flying over, for the Skraelings were using catapults. Karlsefni and Snorri saw them hoist a large sphere on a pole; [one manuscript here adds "it was the size of a sheep's stomach,"] it was dark blue in colour. It came flying over the head of Karlsefni's men and made an ugly din when it struck the ground. This terrified Karlsefni and his men so much that their only thought was to flee, and they retreated farther up the river."
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:14 No.8191789
    >>8191762"When they clashed there was a fierce battle and a hail of missiles came flying over, for the Skraelings were using catapults. Karlsefni and Snorri saw them hoist a large sphere on a pole; [one manuscript here adds "it was the size of a sheep's stomach,"] it was dark blue in colour. It came flying over the head of Karlsefni's men and made an ugly din when it struck the ground. This terrified Karlsefni and his men so much that their only thought was to flee, and they retreated farther up the river."

    it was filled with bees
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:16 No.8191814
    Awesome idea, i`ll suggest this scenario to God next time i meet her.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:18 No.8191838
    If the knowledge of America and it's primitive pagan inhabitants became widespread, there might have been quite a few trans-atlantic crusades on their way between 1200's and 1300's. With the likelihood of Black Death also affecting the area, the natives couldn't have survived very long anyway.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:18 No.8191846

    >romania as a major power

    AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAAA What? He was serious? Let me laugh even harder.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:19 No.8191861

    >implying controlling those areas would make someone a major power.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:25 No.8191950

    >Implying the mere existence of romania between austria, russia, and byzantium isnt wishful thinking itself

    Also, they got both moldova and transsylvania
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:29 No.8192024
    >>8189341In real life, the Vikings actually made friends with the Natives where they landed. It would truly become a land of equality as the Natives and Vikings started claiming land further south and west. Also: The would mean little to no British America.

    Snorri took a deep hit of the peace pipe, and passed it back to his host.

    "No way, you like Wolves too??" Snorri said to the black haired, bronze bodied man dressed in skins. "I love wolves!"

    "Yes, they are my animal totem." The red man spoke in his firm, resolute manner. After exhaling a puff of smoke, his eyes bore into his visitor
    "Would you like to see my wolf related artworks?" the native propositioned.

    The viking's answer could be read even before he opened his mouth "By Odin, yes!"

    "Just this way, into my wigwam" he said, opening the flap to his humble, yet cozy wooden abode.

    Snorri could not believe his eyes, the inside of the bark lined wigwam was adorned with all kinds of wolf paintings, wolf carvings, wolf everything. Here hung a wolf tooth necklace, there lay a wolf tail. So enthralled was the viking by the wolfing and the hits of peace pipe that he did not notice the absence of his host.

    A long shadow fell over Snorri under the dusklight. Snorri turned to see a figure, body covered in furs, head fully enclosed by a wolf mask standing in the doorway. A wolf tail swaggered between it's legs. Snorri felt his mind feel clouded as this surreal image sauntered towards him.

    "Hey yellow hair" the voice of his host called to him
    "wanna yiff?"
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:32 No.8192065
    And thus, were the Vinland Wolves created.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:35 No.8192105
    I'd guess there'd be a schism between the Christian Vikings in the homeland and the pagan Vikings in the colonies (they were still pagan when they colonized Vinland, right?).
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:39 No.8192159
    >>8192024A long shadow fell over Snorri under the dusklight. Snorri turned to see a figure, body covered in furs, head fully enclosed by a wolf mask standing in the doorway. A wolf tail swaggered between it's legs. Snorri felt his mind feel clouded as this surreal image sauntered towards him.



    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:39 No.8192168

    Lief Erikson was a Christian
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:40 No.8192176
    Well, in that case, nevermind. I'm not much for Norse history.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:48 No.8192318
    The big thing to consider:
    Do the Vinlanders stay in contact with Europe despite the encroaching ice?

    If they do then history would indeed be massively altered as the great Columbian exchange would take place much more gradually and with many more benefits for the Native Americans. Remember that whilst the vikings did have a technological advantage over the Americans it would not have been sufficient for them to simply dominate the natives and they also had a dominant trade culture. All of this would be great news for the Meso-American civilisations which I believe they would have made contact with as a people of great explorers.

    Past that and guessing at what might have happened becomes even more impossible as it impossible to say how trade with Europe would have stimulated native American culture.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:49 No.8192336
    Look Snorri, trolls!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:54 No.8192410
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    Bump for more discussion.

    Also, does anyone have any more design suggestions for the flag? I tried to draw that triangle knot but couldn't manage it.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:56 No.8192442

    Some were, some weren't. Leif and Karlsefni were, as were (probably) most of Karlsefni's settlers. There were some pagans, most prominently Freydis Eriksdottir, who is portrayed as a bloodthirsty bitch who murders people left and right. As the sagas were written by Christians, it's quite likely that her character was negatively exaggerated. They do give her one unquestionably badass scene, though:

    "Freydis came out and saw how they were retreating [from the Skraelings]. She called out, "Why run you away from such worthless creatures, stout men that ye are, when, as seems to me likely, you might slaughter them like so many cattle? Let me but have a weapon, I think I could fight better than any of you." They gave no heed to what she said. Freydis endeavoured to accompany them, still she soon lagged behind, because she was not well [read: she was pregnant]; she went after them into the wood, and the Skrælingar directed their pursuit after her. She came upon a dead man; Thorbrand, Snorri's son, with a flat stone fixed in his head; his sword lay beside him, so she took it up and prepared to defend herself therewith.

    "Then came the Skrælingar upon her. She let down her sark and struck her breast with the naked sword. At this they were frightened, rushed off to their boats, and fled away. "
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:57 No.8192462
    >Some were, some weren't.

    Were Christian, I meant to say.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)17:58 No.8192483

    boy, never in my life did I expect to see VikingxNative American gay furry erotica
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)18:12 No.8192702
    Welcome to 4chan.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)18:19 No.8192809

    Cool Monarchist propoganda there, but everyone knows that it is the League that won the Great War
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)18:56 No.8193388
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)19:10 No.8193588
    To make all this possible there would have to be some pretty amazing leaps in navigation and ship building tech as to cross the North Atlantic with anything before the advent of the advances in ship building of the 1300s (in the Mediterranean, slowly spreading north) would be pure fluke to do successfully.

    So if the Vikings do manage to advance in a way that gets them say, the compass and the astrolabe, and ship designs that can handle the long crossings reliably, what happens if the rest of northern europe adopts the methods?
    Considering the French had the biggest population in Europe for the entire middle ages, there'd probably be quite a few french, spanish and possibly english (if they could be bothered to stop fighting themselves/the french) colonies being set up.
    Theres also the possibility that with enough recovery time from the diseases due to the early start, what about the meso-american empires, what if they start coming over to europe, or using their traded-for technologies and such to start expanding out more into north america?.

    Assuming that the inhabitants of north america are human and will try to adapt useful things for their own use, things could get pretty damn interesting.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)19:13 No.8193616
    The vikings actually did manage to reach North America, just the settling that didn't go so well.
    Apologies if I misunderstood you.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)19:17 No.8193687

    OPs original flag works. It's the design that screams "This is a Scandinavian country".

    (Screams very politely, because, you know, Scandinavians.)
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)20:07 No.8194391
    Someone has saved this thread... right?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)20:08 No.8194409
    Doubt it.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)21:30 No.8195701
    Thread is archived on sup/tg/ now.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/10(Sat)21:39 No.8195836
    >How does this alter world history?

    The rest North America becomes like the Mid-West. Bunch of swedes went there a few hundred years ago, became fat and ugly.

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