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  • File : 1262709670.jpg-(102 KB, 457x598, exalted.jpg)
    102 KB Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)11:41 No.7439241  
    What exactly is wrong with the BoED's fluff, apart from the problem with ravages and afflictions?
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)11:56 No.7439399
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)12:20 No.7439649
    Bump again.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:21 No.7439663
    I won't suffer myself to read through that shit again but from what I recall it had just about the same kind of juvenile shit view on Morals and Good that BoVD had on Evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:22 No.7439675
    >ravages and afflictions?
    Poison and Diseases are good if it only affects the evil guys!
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)12:22 No.7439686
    Well, BoVD did have some laughable moments, but I found BoED to be much better. I suspect that many people disliked it because it harpooned many of their hopes for being a GRIMDARK paladin.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:23 No.7439697
    Doubtful as that's never a complaint i've heard with the book.
    Most of it's been namecalling it "The Book of Exalted Cheese", saying the views on morality was childish and downright stupid and of course Ravages & Afflictions.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)12:23 No.7439700
    Note that that's the part I did find stupid.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:24 No.7439703
    Narrow and dogmatic, more focused on the philosophy of 'good' than y'know actually helping people.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)12:24 No.7439704
    If I could actually have more detail on how things were childish/stupid, it'd be nice.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:25 No.7439714
    I really just hate it because some of the Vows are ridiculous.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)12:36 No.7439809
    Some of them can be a bit overpowered, yes.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)12:39 No.7439837
    Ah? I thought it spent most of its time on finding ways to help people.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:40 No.7439850

    ...that was kinda the point.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:41 No.7439869
    I honestly don't see what the point is.

    BoED is several hundred pages of stating the obvious, BoVD is several hundred pages of disgusting new ideas for really sick players to do. Both are bad.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)12:42 No.7439883
    Because of people selecting good alignments and then playing them like they're neutral, mostly.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:43 No.7439886
    I enjoyed it. It had some good concepts and examples, mainly regarding spells, classes and creatures. I don't even care about the ravages and afflictions bit. Fuckers have different kinds of poisons, nuff said. In fact I found the HURR DURR ANNOYING bits funny and entertaining. Basically it was like reading the BoVD with a PC language machine having gone through it. "Deathless" lol. Can imagine the zombie going:"Dats wacist! I aint undead muddafukka! I'm DEATHLESS, yo!"

    But anyway, only underage faggots, and their mental equivalents get hung up on the "philosophy" of a DnD supplement.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:44 No.7439912
    And, amusingly the 'OP' one isn't the one everyone thinks it is (aka not Poverty).
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:48 No.7439964
    BoVD was obviously a masterpiece that truly showed true EVIL then.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:49 No.7439970
    I didn't think ANY of them were actually any good.

    Poverty _is_ powerful, if you're in a low-magic / no-magic setting. Otherwise - as we discovered in the thread the other day - it's almost precisely on par with someone acquiring magic items according to wealth by level, but without the flexibility you could get with the magic items, and hideous drawbacks. It just has a bad name, because DMs look at it and go AMAGAD IT HAS ABILITIES ON ITTTSs
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:51 No.7439989
    BoVD was basically FATAL philosophy portrayed as evil. I cannot in good conscience disagree.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:52 No.7440002
    That's the joke
    ba-dum tish
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:53 No.7440014
    Vile Darkness gave me tons of ideas for curses and their application. I made a neutral cleric that had curses EVERYWHERE. I managed to lay low the BBEG of that campaign by merely shaking his hand.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:55 No.7440032
    It doesn't take a book to do that. It takes a DM willing to change character alignments to what they're actually playing.

    BoED's silly because it has a PrC that's basically Jesus. Also because it doesn't really add much to the game as a whole.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)12:57 No.7440048
    Well, there was that one spell that was essentially a good version of mindrape. I wish I could remember the name.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)12:59 No.7440067
    Sanctify the Wicked, maybe?

    I find the philosophical clarifications to be useful.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:00 No.7440071
    >Book of Exalted Cheese
    Some of the Vows, yes. But from what I recall there where other stuff. I think it was possible to get insane Bards for example with... Words of Creation was it?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:00 No.7440073
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:00 No.7440086
    You know what I see in this thread?

    >BAAAWWW Moralfaggotry sucks!
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:04 No.7440103
    Yeah, Sanctify the Wicked, that's it. It's a bit off for a "good" spell, I think.

    Words of Creation can be made to do disgusting things, yeah.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:05 No.7440104
    The good parts of BoVD weren't the vows - it was the handful of other random feats, and the handful of prestige classes that were worth taking.

    Stalker of Khardesh is worth a two level dip for a ranger, for Favoured Enemy: Evil; Champion of Gwynharwyf is a fairly awesome paladin-barbarian PrC; and then a handful of the feats like Words of Creation are awesome.

    Most of the Vows are fairly terrible, and as has already been covered above, the best is probably VoPoverty, but just because it's polished doesn't make it less of a turd.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)13:06 No.7440112
    I think it's fine. It creates more good in the universe and does no harm. What's not to like?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:06 No.7440116
    I think my complaint about BoED is about the same as my complaint for BoVD - there's actually very little good in them, for what could have been very awesome books. They completely wasted a huge amount of potential.
    >> Shirou !lORCIa01Kk 01/05/10(Tue)13:07 No.7440126
    I actually kinda like the books.

    I even think they have a place in Eberron, one of the more morally gray campaign settings.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:08 No.7440136
    It's mindrape with a good bent. The ends don't justify the means.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:09 No.7440140
    It's mind control mind rape. It's just like the evil version, except it turns the subject to completely different direction.

    Are you still good if you do evil for its sake? This spell argues "Yes".
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)13:12 No.7440179
    Actually, nowhere in the BoED, or anywhere, does it say that mind control is evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:12 No.7440182
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    >Childish morality
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:15 No.7440214
    >Childishly following a fictional roleplaying book in all questions of life, without ever thinking with her own brain

    You're insane.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)13:16 No.7440226
    When were we talking about real-world morality? I was talking about why Sanctify the Wicked isn't considered an evil spell.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:16 No.7440227
    What of mind rape, then? Torturing and brainwashing someone until they utterly submit to you?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:16 No.7440230
    At what point did it not occur to you that mind control was a generally horrific thing to do?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:16 No.7440233

    no amount of thought can give you correct ethical answers. might as well follow an rpg book mindlessly.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:18 No.7440253
    If those are the characteristics for a "good" spell in D&D, that's short-sighted at best.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:18 No.7440257
    Nothing really. It focuses on Good's morality. The best part about it is the talking about redeeming Evil people. Which is weird because the best part in BoVD was the corrupting other people parts.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)13:19 No.7440268
    It doesn't count as torture if the spell description is anything to go by.

    It's considered such because of primal fears of losing free will, but that fear is out of proportion to the intrinsic harm done.

    Also, why is the BoED childish again?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:21 No.7440283
    >It doesn't count as torture

    like water boarding, amirite?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:27 No.7440344
    >It's considered such because of primal fears of losing free will, but that fear is out of proportion to the intrinsic harm done.
    Of course, as everyone knows Oceania and Eurasia have always been at war.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:28 No.7440361
    Eastasia. Oceania and Eastasia have always been at war.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)13:29 No.7440372
    That's not actual mind control; that's an attempt to create mind control via crude, harmful methods. Which is different.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:29 No.7440381
    >Which is different.
    And just as evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:30 No.7440391
    And if they had a successful method of mind control, would it be any better?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:32 No.7440410
    Designer of Sanctify the Wicked says:
    "My original intention behind that spell and template was to allow characters to do the impossible - turn a force of evil - a fiend - into a good aligned creature. My secondary motivation behind it was to make it possible for players to play god aligned versions of lesser devils or demons that had been sanctified. I'd been watching a bit of Buffy and Angel at the time it had been designed and it seemed only logical that there should be some good aligned demons in existence. Aside from that, I originally applied the template to a bearded devil, not a red dragon."

    "there should be some good aligned demons"
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)13:32 No.7440412
    If it could be a place in which people were genuinely happy and didn't do any harm? Yes.
    >> Âge the Thread-Bumper !MmGuZRSKpg 01/05/10(Tue)13:34 No.7440423
    I read this as "Osea and Erusia have always been at war" and thought this thread devolved into "Ace Combat: The Pen and Paper".
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:35 No.7440435
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    >If it could be a place in which people were genuinely happy and didn't do any harm? Yes.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:35 No.7440438
    You ARE crazy.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)13:38 No.7440456
    Of course, doing that is almost impossible. Even Brave New World failed at it, so it's not like I'll be supporting any mind-control-ish regimes anytime soon.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:38 No.7440462
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    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:40 No.7440490
    Yeah... that's not why I said you were crazy.

    Tell me. If mind control is so awesome, and people being afraid of it is just a primal fear, and once we've tried it a bit it would seem like awesome and logical... why do people always want to break out of it, and never want to go back when they do, in just about every single work of fiction?
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)13:43 No.7440516
    Fiction is mostly written that way because of the primal fear.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:44 No.7440520
    All right, so how about we mind controlled people into thinking that being locked in a small room all the time was fucking awesome? Wouldn't that be great?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:45 No.7440530
    It's probably a feature of the brain. Once it's been in a state for a certain amount of time, there's a hidden trigger to "wake up" and ascend to another state of consciousness.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)13:47 No.7440555

    Exalted, are you that blind? Do you seriously think that mind control is not an evil act simply because it's for the greater good? Completely changing one's way of thinking through the use of magic is indeed very, very evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:48 No.7440558
    How about I mind controlled you being my pleasure slave? Of course you might resist the idea, but that's just your primal fears talking.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:48 No.7440564
    It'd be very enjoyable if you were mind controlled into thinking it was, too. It's really a win-win situation.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:49 No.7440567
    Mind Control is pretty much the same thing as murder.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:49 No.7440569
    Permanent mind control is, at least.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)13:49 No.7440570
    If you can do it correctly, fine.

    It doesn't say so anywhere in D&D. Not in the PHB, not in the BoED, not in the BoVD. Of course, if this is one of the reasons the BoED is childish, I'll accept that.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:50 No.7440577
    Mind Control is only evil if it is used for evil purposes, otherwise it is neutral
    >> Thannak 01/05/10(Tue)13:51 No.7440582
    Fuck it, I like supplements for the fluff.

    Draconomicon>all other supplements. It had the most fluff.

    Faerun main supplement is a close second.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:52 No.7440598
    There was a problem with ravages and afflictions?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:53 No.7440604
    the DCs suck
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:53 No.7440605
    Most people (myself included) think they're a silly work-around to keep poisons evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:53 No.7440609
    Poison and Diseases that only affects evil people!
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:54 No.7440614
    >BoVD is several hundred pages of disgusting new ideas for really sick players to do.
    Did you ever READ the book?
    It was mainly for DMs only.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:55 No.7440623
    Any book that's for DMs only is going to find its way into the hands of the players.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:55 No.7440628
    And it was hilariously juvenile.
    The books good for nothing but a laugh.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)13:56 No.7440639
    This I mostly agree with.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)13:57 No.7440643

    If you're not a troll, I really feel sorry for you. This sort of mentality is the very thing I hate about my DM. His idea of morality and the whole scheme of Good vs. Evil is very black and white. No, the book doesn't say Sanctify the Wicked is outright evil, but that doesn't mean a damn thing.

    In D&D, you're generally an adventurer who conducts an act that is no better than graverobbing. Adventurers are praised for their heroic acts killing entire societies of other races, in some cases simply because they are afraid of them.

    By using Sanctify, you're completely changing the thought process of an individual with a different outlook on life against their will.

    Just because it turns "evil into good" doesn't mean it's truly good. It's not like an evil society steps outside every morning and says: "Being evil sure is fun. I can't wait to slaughter innocent people today." It doesn't work like that. An evil person or society functions the way they do because that is what works. To have a good aligned person magically change their outlook instantly is absurd, and not to be taken lightly.

    Stop thinking that good is simply good because it has the word good in it. Read between the lines, and put yourself in the shoes of the person being effected by Sanctify the Wicked.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)13:58 No.7440657
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    Obviously, the Fiend Folio was better.
    >> Thannak 01/05/10(Tue)13:58 No.7440659
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    <<< Combine BOVD and BOED and what do you get?
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:03 No.7440722
    I personally don't consider grave robbing to be evil either. It's not like the dead need their stuff. As for the rest of it... the BoED does cover that, saying that launching preemptive strikes on people just because they're evil isn't a good act. You have to be acting in self-defense or defense of another.

    Finally, those under the effect of StW don't have such a bad time of it. Altering one's moral viewpoint is difficult, of course, but once it finishes, they're likely very happy about it.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:05 No.7440736
    Why is it every time someone brings up the Book of Exalted Deeds I am reminded of the book Villains by Necessity?
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)14:06 No.7440748
    >Altering one's moral viewpoint is difficult, of course, but once it finishes, they're likely very happy about it.

    Bullshit. Seriously. 1984, motherfucker, do you read it?
    >> Thannak 01/05/10(Tue)14:06 No.7440753
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    >In D&D, you're generally an adventurer who conducts an act that is no better than graverobbing. Adventurers are praised for their heroic acts killing entire societies of other races, in some cases simply because they are afraid of them.

    Only combat heavy ones. Generally, I prefer to avoid using Zhent or orc tribes, instead relying on the fucking Mafia.

    My players know not to roll Lawful anything unless they wanna join a war or something clear and cut-just plain being lawful good in a city setting is like begging to be put in difficult situations.

    That being said, I subscribe to Twilight Zone alignments. There are evils, mostly because of what they intend to do and their past actions have been. In other words, the "means justify the ends" road with heavy emphasis on self defense.

    Preemptive strike against sleeping orcs you come across? Evil.

    Stabbing a lawful good in the neck and running for the city guard to drag his ass to a medical facility because he's a dumbshit and attacked you thinking you were evil for some reason? No alignment break of any kind.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:07 No.7440768
    >but once it finishes, they're likely very happy about it.
    As if they have a choice.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:08 No.7440774
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)14:09 No.7440787

    Oh, the irony.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:09 No.7440797
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    Still waiting to hear anyone explain what issue they have with "the same kind of juvenile shit view on Morals and Good that BoVD had on Evil."

    Just waiting on someone to say anything more than that.

    I think people only come up with these insults because they feel their dumb real world religion getting challenged by something completely artificial. Prove me wrong about anything but religious animosity that results in the nonstop criticism this book's fluff gets.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:10 No.7440800
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    >Grave Robbing
    >Not Evil nor Unlawful

    Dude it's THEFT! The word ROBBING is half of the fucking phrase! The other half is GRAVE. You are desecrating someone's final resting place to make a quick buck. How is that not evil?
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:12 No.7440817
    It's a victimless crime. The only harm you can be doing is to other people who get mad at you.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:12 No.7440826
    Well, he's dead.
    It's not theft if the person the body belonged to is dead, now is it? And even if it is, what's he gonna do? Come back from the dead? Hahahahaha! That'd be ridiculous!
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:14 No.7440832
    Personally i'm annoyed by the numerous Good = Gods bullshit it's got going on.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:14 No.7440843
    For those of you who haven't read the worthless shit that is the Book of Exalted Cheese.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:14 No.7440844
    Well, there are a lot of gods who happen to be good. It's not like good people have to worship a god.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:15 No.7440851
    The shambling undead was coming right at me, officer.
    I had no choice but to shoot it, and then loot its corpse.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)14:16 No.7440868
    You should really change your trip to Bigoted Exalted.

    Here's a quote from 1984 to help express why your thoughts on StW is incorrect, and you need to read between the lines more.

    "He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."

    Winston did not like the ideals of Big Brother. That was the whole point of the fucking book. But, in the end, he was tortured and brainwashed into believing the ideals of The Party. In the end, he was happy to love Big Brother, just as you expressed. But, truthfully, he really wasn't that happy. It was against his will, his thought process, his feelings, his instincts, and basically everything Winston was. StW is no better at all.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:17 No.7440873
    There are parts on Sin & Atonement, Martyrhood, Sainthood, Exorcism and most of it is talking about fucking Celestials.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:17 No.7440876

    Well aside from being alignment specific poisons and diseases, they also subverted immunities due to the fact that they were not officialy poisons or diseases, thus leaving a gaping hole in the immunities of evil creatures and since ravages and afflictions were good tools any good alignment character could tote around some doses of the stuff.

    Also ravages had a retarded mechanic were they were the only objects in the game that actively punished the victim for having high stats, the higher your charisma was the more damage an ravage did.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:18 No.7440890
    It's still a fucking crime.

    There is a victim! THE FUCKING MORALS AND DECENCY THAT THE WHOLE OF THE BURIAL RITUAL IS BASED ON ARE CRUSHED! They were buried with what they were for a reason. There is nothing 'good' about stomping on someone else beliefs.

    I'm okay with grave robbing if it fits the character, but saying Grave Robbing is not an evil or unlawful act is just fucking stupid.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:19 No.7440896
    Not so sure 'bout that.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:19 No.7440897

    Splendid, then lets have a bout of necrophilia too.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:19 No.7440898
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:20 No.7440905
    This is apples and oranges. The people in 1984 don't have magical powers. They're trying to use wholly mundane means to accomplish things far beyond them, that of course hurt the people they're done to.

    A lot of the vocabulary is Christiany, true, but I think they did that for the purposes of cultural familiarity.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:21 No.7440919
    Well, if you do that, then wave around the treasures in other people's faces and singing about it, then yes, that'd be a dick move.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)14:22 No.7440928

    >This is apples and oranges. The people in 1984 don't have magical powers. They're trying to use wholly mundane means to accomplish things far beyond them, that of course hurt the people they're done to.

    How are they different?

    And Magically raping someone's ideals and memories is a-ok? Answer no.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:22 No.7440929
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    >A lot of the vocabulary is Christiany, true, but I think they did that for the purposes of cultural familiarity.
    You give this shit too much credit.
    Pic related.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:22 No.7440930
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    This thread is argument against incorporating objective morality into the mechanics of an RPG.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:23 No.7440936

    I wouldn't say grave robbing is evil per se. What if the person in question comes from a culture that believes it a crime against their gods to even bury a fellow being? What if he thinks he's being good when he digs up bodies in secret and burns them instead?
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:24 No.7440947
    The difference is that magic is, well, magic. It can do things that purely physical means can't.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)14:24 No.7440950
    It's a dick move either way. No matter how you say it you are desecrating a man's resting place and stealing.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:26 No.7440963
    >dick move
    Yes, i'd still put it pretty squarely as neutral though.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:27 No.7440980

    The dead won't really care because they're dead, though. So how the hell is it evil do dig up belongings buried with a corpse that won't need them ever? What if you dug them up to feed your starving family?
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)14:28 No.7440986

    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:28 No.7440992
    We would highly appreciate it if you did not spam your shitty clones all over www.ànoñtálk.com. Thank you.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:28 No.7440993
    Their means in Big Brother seemed to work perfectly well, and not hurt anyone any more than magic does.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)14:29 No.7441009
    >This is apples and oranges. The people in 1984 don't have magical powers. They're trying to use wholly mundane means to accomplish things far beyond them, that of course hurt the people they're done to.

    It's more like Granny Smith and McIntosh apples. You're outright changing the thought process of an individual against their will. The only difference is the methods used. Also, just because it's magic, doesn't mean it's any more humane.

    I want to have faith in you, but you are so absolutely wrong, that it upsets me. Do us all a favor and pack away your pen and paper materials, and never play ever again.

    At least, until you understand the basic concept of roleplaying in the respect of understanding characters regardless of alignment. Morality is a huge aspect in D&D especially, and to have such a black and white mentality about it is very ignorant.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:30 No.7441016
    Evidently not, if people are still unhappy.

    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)14:31 No.7441031
    OH SHIT!. I figured it out. Exalted is basing his ideas of good on the technical paladin Luca Blight. That's the only way this bullshit can make sense.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:31 No.7441039

    Fuck R'hllor and his scarlet prostitute. My gods are the gods of my fathers.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)14:31 No.7441041
    >Evidently not, if people are still unhappy.

    You're not willingly happy under the effects of magical mind control. This is elementary.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:32 No.7441044
    Well... according to RAW, by the standards of fictional morality, I'm actually right. If you dislike and disagree with these standards, that's fine, but I'm not just making shit up and then claiming that it's good.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:32 No.7441046
    The BoVD was interesting but childis presenting evil as gore and tits predominantly, so i found the BoED somewhat less childish but vastly hypocritical and as mentioned incredibly cheesy.

    Such as the cloak that gave you immunity to nonmagical damage and a dc 15 reflex save vs magical damage or the spells or the prestige classes.

    But the biggest misstep made was probably when the designers looked at the BoVD and thought "damn, look at all those cool but morally objectionable stuff evil people can do" and then went out of their way to make "good" aligned versions of most of the evil stuff.

    Almost surprised that they did not make a "Condom of Joyful Intercourse" that ensure that no matter who you wrestle to the ground and have sex with both parts still enjoy it, sure it does so by controlling the mind of the victim but it is in no way rape, just enforced enjoyment and that is all good ... right? Right?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:33 No.7441062
    >Evidently not, if people are still unhappy.

    Are they? It doesn't show.


    No, seriously, just because it's magic doesn't make it any more right. It's like saying "I EAT SHIT AND IT'S GOOD FOR ME CUZ MAGIC DERP".
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)14:34 No.7441073
    All mind control is harmful. It steals away a man's personality and patch works in an 'acceptable' one in its place. Changing someone's mind without their consent is an evil act. That is it.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)14:36 No.7441093

    >The book says that good is always good no matter what. I'm right and you're wrong.

    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:38 No.7441116
    Exalted? What if you could use MAGIC to make someone completely catatonic but happy? The process is perfect and painless, and as a result the subject loses all free will and is content to do absolutely nothing but sit around and be in his mind, but in a perfectly happy and blissful state.

    Would you do it?
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)14:41 No.7441156
    Now THAT'S Evil! Might use that for my next BBEG.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:41 No.7441158
    >Evidently not, if the people are still unhappy.

    >He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

    Sounds pretty happy to me.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:41 No.7441161
    Yes, assuming I wasn't harming other people by depriving them of the benefits of that person being in their lives.

    Or if people payed me to do it.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:42 No.7441169
    Make sure they will always want to go back in that state if they're freed.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:42 No.7441174
    Well, according to someone else, he didn't count as actually being happy. I've never read the book, so I can't say for certain.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)14:42 No.7441175

    Apparently, you didn't read the book.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:43 No.7441177
    >Or if people payed me to do it.

    So you're doing this for MONEY now, not for the good of mankind! How can you still claim to be in any way a decent person?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:43 No.7441180
    Seconded. I am definitely making a villain who does this to his victims now, under the pretense that he's helping people.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:43 No.7441186
    Apparently you can't detect sarcasm.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)14:45 No.7441204

    Apparently, you don't realize that sarcasm isn't as easy to detect online. Regardless, we've been trolled this whole time. There's no way Exalted could be this ignorant.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:45 No.7441205
    Gah. "Paid," my apologies.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)14:46 No.7441218
    But your depriving people of the ability to actually live! They can't walk, talk, engage one another, become sad, angry, or happy. They'll have no other people in their life. Just themselves in an artificial sense of fufillment. It's a nightmare....

    YES! Addictive comas. No one will stand in my way.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:46 No.7441219
    Prepare to be surprised.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:47 No.7441222
    The thing with StW, though, is that it's not forcing a person to go against who they are. It's changing who they are from the inside out.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:48 No.7441235
    I don't know what's happening here, and I don't want to know. I would just point out that the less well you understand D&D's alignment system, the less likely it is to bother you. Please stop taking this stuff seriously, you'll just troll yourselves.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:48 No.7441238
    If it helps, I'd be perfectly willing to do it to myself. The reason I haven't yet is because, with this ability, I could have the power to help people who can't be helped in any other way.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:49 No.7441245

    There is actually a lot better book on evil than BoVD. Ironically, it's named Evil, which pretty much promises incredible childish and stupid "EEVUL DO EEVUL CAUSE EEVUL IS EEVUL" type of shi. But surprisingly, it's actually about five thousand magnitudes better than BoVD.

    Unsurprisinly, this non-shitpile book is a third party book also. You should all look it up on /rs/.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)14:50 No.7441256
    >The thing with StW, though, is that it's not forcing a person to go against who they are. It's changing who they are from the inside out.

    Which is against their will.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:52 No.7441272
    I've read it. Good book. Had an awesome intro.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:52 No.7441273
    We're never going to get anywhere on this, I suppose.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)14:52 No.7441278
    It doesn't help me. It does show how insane you are though. You are not helping them. You are crippling them and feeding them ecstasy. YOU TAKE AWAY THEIR LIVES AND THEY'LL NEVER REALIZE BECAUSE YOU FUCK WITH THERE HEADS TO MAKE THEM LIKE THE QUIET LONELINESS OF A COMA. Eventually they'll starve and wither away. You give them a life sentence for a tiny bit of fake joy.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:54 No.7441298
    So, what fey races are good to use for nymph's kiss?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:54 No.7441299

    No you're not, because you're an idiot insisting that because it's magic, it's alright.

    Ok, I'll make a rape spell. It puts them to sleep and then allows you to rape them, but will then make it so that they were not raped at all.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)14:54 No.7441303
    I'll look it up.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)14:55 No.7441310
    There is a spell like that. Two actually. One is Mindrape the other is Sanctify the Wicked.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:56 No.7441318
    You should. It's a very poignant book on how to make evil plausible and realistic, while remaining menacing and despicable. I think they did a book on Good too, which was almost as excellent.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)14:57 No.7441327
    Hm. That sounds like an intriguing mix of simulacrum and time suspension; shunting the target into another dimension temporarily and replacing it with a perfect facsimile of a body. It could happen, and likely wouldn't be evil (even if it was rape, you'd just be raping a magically created fake), but it sounds way too complicated for the potential use.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:57 No.7441329
    Mindrape is fucking outrageous. The potential uses for it are limitless.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:59 No.7441346

    BoVD: Piercings and fetishes of any kind are evil.

    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:59 No.7441349
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    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)14:59 No.7441350

    You're a sick, sick fucker. Also, no, it wouldn't be a simuclacrum, you'd be raping the person, but after the rape her body turns exactly like before the rape. And she's in a comatose sleep for the whole duration.

    But hey, it must be ok, since it's magic and magic can do no wrong.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:00 No.7441362

    Don't forget that mutilating yourself is evil and makes you immoral!
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:00 No.7441367


    Here's the way I see it.
    Good and evil in the dnd "'verse" are *factions,* one derived from the celestials' culture and the other from the cultures of the lower planes. (Or if you use 4e cosmology, whatever the equivalent is.) The former enjoys helping people, and the other enjoys hurting people. That's the simplification, but they each do the same despicable things to make their ideology dominant. The Good beings justify it by "they're happier this way," while the Evil beings justify it by "who the fuck cares?"
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)15:02 No.7441383
    In that case, it sounds like a perfect copy of the target's body is preserved by the spell initially, then once the spell expires, the original body is then replaced by the copy. Does that work?

    That's actually useful, even. It'd be excellent for stopping assassination attempts on sleeping people.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:02 No.7441389

    Guess who else justifies their mindwashing and enslaving with "we know better than them so we can do what we want"? Pretty much every dictator.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:03 No.7441394
    Hey hey, only if they're EEEEEVIIIIIL piercing.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)15:03 No.7441395
    I think Exalted is like a Lawful/Evil person thinking he's committing Lawful/Good acts. Obviously, not in such a metagamey sense. I think that's why he doesn't understand.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)15:04 No.7441406
    It still doesn't make it a 'good' act. No matter how you justify it, it is still forcefully changing ones mind.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:04 No.7441408

    That is pretty much it but of course this is not the accepted explanation because the good players and DMs like to belive that they are better than that.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:05 No.7441423
    I'll bet this is what talking to a Pit Fiend is like.
    "Ok ok, but wait. What about this is wrong again?"
    "EVERYTHING. Because X and Y and Z."
    "But those are good things!"
    "You're talking about brainwashing!"
    "Well yeah, but what's wrong with that?"
    "And rape!"
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:05 No.7441428

    No. Do not fucking try to make it a different spell. You rape a woman, the woman is comatose and will revert to a state before the rape. It is not a copy, it is the same woman. It is a rape, and the magic will cover your trails. In this case it's not a body double. It was the same person all along. She just feels no pain and doesn't even know it while it happens. She cannot become pregnant or otherwise be harmed by it.

    And before you go "Well that shit cannot really work like that with magic", then, to paraphrase you, "Fuck you it's magic and I don't need to explain shit."
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:05 No.7441429



    All that says is "the various types of outsider, being more powerful than mortals, think they're better than us."

    THIS JUST IN! Beings magnitudes more powerful than ordinary people believe they're better! NEWS AT ELEVEN!
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:06 No.7441435
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    Hey Exalted?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:06 No.7441442
    She. Exalted's a girl.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:07 No.7441452
    Or claiming such, anyway.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)15:08 No.7441462
    .......that cocksucker
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:09 No.7441472
    You LIE.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)15:09 No.7441476
    Can someone shop that so instead of lawful Evil is reads Exalted !OOirDpvrkA?
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)15:09 No.7441479
    Since the act apparently blocks off any possible harm... that probably technically doesn't count as evil.

    By that logic, every parent in the world is lawful evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:09 No.7441483
    I'll be she just needs a fucking, and someone to make sandwiches for. That solves all opinionated psychosis in my experience.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:10 No.7441485

    >Implying I implied that justifies it.

    All I did was explain a possible reasoning behind it.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:10 No.7441491
    >By that logic, every parent in the world is lawful evil.

    Most parents stop at a certain point.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:11 No.7441500

    OK! Then you're greenlighting me assraping you after drugging you if it won't do any damage! I'll be right over!
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)15:11 No.7441503
    >She. Exalted's a girl.

    Yeah, well, me too. Oh, well. An evil girl, apparently.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !DOD3/eopFI 01/05/10(Tue)15:12 No.7441513

    Everyone. Let us now assrape Exalted five thousand times. But we must be gentle because otherwise it's evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:13 No.7441521
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    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:13 No.7441522
    Evil traps are the hottest
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)15:13 No.7441527
    Oh I know, I was just saying that if someone believes that works they are wrong. It's a possible explanation but not a good one.

    >Since the act apparently blocks off any possible harm... that probably technically doesn't count as evil.

    I....just....wow. Honestly I'm having difficulty putting into words how stupid that is.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)15:15 No.7441546
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    I fucked up the font. Sorry.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)15:15 No.7441549
    I shall bring the lube and ecstasy.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:16 No.7441554

    From your words I gather that you are a rigid utilitarian who scoffs at any other moral philosophy.

    My advice is that you should withhold your judgement until after you've successfully completed Philosophy 101 and maybe actually given a little thought to alternatives.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:17 No.7441568
    Oh, Exalted, you’re a clever girl. I’d call you a genius, except I’m in the room… but everything you’ve invented you did to fight your sickness. And that’s brilliant. That is so human. But once you get rid of sickness and mortality, then what’s there to strive for? Eh? The Cybermen won’t advance. You’ll just stop. You’ll stay like this forever. A metal Earth with metal men and metal thoughts. Lacking the one thing that makes this planet so alive. People. Ordinary, stupid, brilliant people!
    >> Masterwork Bastard !DOD3/eopFI 01/05/10(Tue)15:17 No.7441569

    I was about to comment how alignments are not about simple technicalities and yes-or-no binary, but then I realized Exalted is the best fucking example of Lawful Evil even.

    Good sir Exalted, I will now make you my next BBEG. She will be a horrible tyrant who believes she's doing no evil while raping and mindcontrolling half a continent.
    Right after I chloroform-assrape you, of course.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:17 No.7441572

    It`s like it is Schrodinger's Rape, as long as she is unaware of it, it did not happen.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)15:18 No.7441581
    Oh god my sides..
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)15:19 No.7441585
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    Here's a better version.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)15:19 No.7441591

    I, too, am considering a BBEG based on this thread. Good show, friends.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:23 No.7441628

    To Exalted, good is a mathematical formula.

    Total good/evil accomplished by an act is equal to the integral of function generated by plotting the intensity of the pleasure caused by the act versus time.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:24 No.7441649
    Well, at least she's appreciating the irony on some level... although I'm not sure if it's because she truly understands she's wrong, or just because she wants to be a part of the joke instead of the butt of it.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:26 No.7441674
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    Sorry to intrude so rudely good sirs.

    I am curious what would my alignment be?
    >> dice2 01/05/10(Tue)15:27 No.7441680
    chaotic furry
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:27 No.7441681
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    I heard a lot of moontalk there, and am filled with a desire to smite something.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:27 No.7441685
    Stupid furry.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:27 No.7441688

    Thus kidnapping an innocent person, locking them in a basement, and pumping them full of heroine until their brain is ruined and their body wastes away generates a huge amount of pleasure and, as long as the victim survives long enough in their drugged state so that the pleasure generated in them is greater than the combined pain of her fear at being kidnapped, her family and friends' grief, etc., should be awarded a medal.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)15:28 No.7441692
    Pretty much.

    I understand the opposing point of view, I just don't agree with it. If something is done in such a way that doesn't hurt anyone, and in fact helps the person it's done to, why is it bad?
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)15:29 No.7441710
    I don't think heroine can cause that much pleasure in one person so as to offset that much pain. And ideally, a good person should be endeavoring to do as little harm as possible, even if it'd require dialing back on the amount of good you can dish out.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:30 No.7441721
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    Because you are depriving them of their individualism and sapience; their ability to choose.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:32 No.7441738
    Heroin is a hell of a drug.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:32 No.7441741
    But it doesn't help them. You forcefully alter their very being to your pleasure. That hurts them and helps you.
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)15:33 No.7441759

    Trying to take a male perspective, here. Mentality like that sends men to prison. Saying "I didn't rape her, she enjoyed it" will still warrant you a nice clean cell.

    Don't have this mentality, Exalted. It makes other women look bad.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:34 No.7441768
    But if they could choose evil and harmful things, wouldn't it just be for everyone's benefit to remove the choice?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:35 No.7441776

    I think its only fair of me to tell you that, as of this thread, I now hate you on a deeply personal level.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:35 No.7441778
    You know Exalted, God gave us the choice to do evil for a reason. By removing that choice, you are putting yourself over His authority, claiming to be greater than He is.

    Don't do that. It's blasphemy and evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:35 No.7441781
    Something incapable of making choices cannot be good or evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:36 No.7441784

    In the context of this thread, is it really a surprise to anyone she's a huge taufag?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:36 No.7441786
    There was a demotivator that said "ALIGNMENT: Because thousands of years of ethical and moral philosophy can be adequately represented in a nine-point system for a game made for twelve year-olds."
    I don't seem to have it, but it applies to this thread SO MUCH.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:37 No.7441799
    The monotheist has spoken, and his opinion is duly noted. Who will speak for the polytheists? Who shall speak for the atheists, and the deists? Rise up people, and let your voices be heard.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:38 No.7441807

    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:39 No.7441813
    It's a bad macro, and it only has the effect of dragging actual philosophy into this kind of conversation, which invariably ends with that nigger Masterfag showing up and trolling everyone. Shove it up your ass.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:40 No.7441843
    I think Masterfag is a Swede. An insufferable college kid of a Swede, but certainly not a negro.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)15:41 No.7441849
    This court now will hear the closing argument of the man from the state of denial. Make it quick. The court is tired of this bullshit
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:41 No.7441862
    Mind control is, in fact, neutral. The basic premise is that you are taking away one's freedom and instilling in its place obedience and control. Whether it is for the greater good or for acts of evil DOES matter, and the act itself has nothing to do with the good/evil axis in D&D.

    Mind control is Lawful. You are making someone adhere to your desires for them, at the expense of freedom.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:43 No.7441882
    >214 posts and 18 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.


    And I thought this would die in the sink.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:43 No.7441884
    >Killing evil with magic is totally cool, but changing its mind with magic? UNACCEPTABLE.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)15:43 No.7441888
    Um... that's stupid. The reason that that doesn't work is because the women in question demonstrably didn't enjoy it and the men are either deluded or evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:44 No.7441900
    Ok maybe, but everyone hates Swedes. They'll be the first to tell you that their country has a perfect economy and the best people and a government that takes care of them, but will then call you money grubbing nationalists who act like you're entitled to everything in the same breath. God fucking damn vikings.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:44 No.7441905

    You know Exalted, the god and the goddess gave us the choice to do evil for a reason. By removing that choice, you are putting yourself over their authority, claiming to be greater than they are.
    Don't do that. It's bad karma and against nature.

    You know Exalted, it's not like we have the choice to do evil for a reason. By removing that choice, you aren't really accomplishing anything.
    Don't do that. It's pointless and stupid.

    You know Exalted, God gave us the choice to do evil, but we'll never know why. By removing that choice, you are simply acting according to the laws of the world that he laid out at the moment of creation.
    Go ahead and do that. Whatever happens, was meant to happen.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)15:44 No.7441909
    >> Shas'o R'myr !!TZikiEEr0tg 01/05/10(Tue)15:45 No.7441917
    If a person cast Sanctify the Wicked on someone, could one justify a drop in alignment from, say, good to neutral because you are forcibly rewriting a person's mind?
    >> Rent-a-Chan 01/05/10(Tue)15:45 No.7441920

    But, a woman can rape a man and get away with it. In fact, they often times do. And, again, I wouldn't enjoy being brainwashed.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:46 No.7441934
    This entire thread reminds me of how I always wanted a story involving a minor villain being put under the effect of StW (or something similar) by the PCs. He wouldn't be a particularly great or horrible evil, more of an annoyance who may have pissed off the PCs with his machinations. After being forced into good by the PCs he would show up every now and then, helping all of the people he could, even if it meant personal sacrifice for himself, but his presence would still be fairly minor.

    Until he aids in saving the life of a holy man, who can see the Ex-Villain is under some sort of mind control effect, and to show his gratitude, decides to break the curse.

    The ex-villain realizing how much he's done under the cause for good, all of it without his free will, enduring so much pain and suffering for the sake of others, even though he knew in the core of his being that he didn't want to...

    Well let's just say that minor annoyance would now be an evil of such a magnitude that the PCs will regret not just mercilessly killing him in his sleep.
    Especially because being good for so long caused a ludicrous amount of people to trust him, allowing him to set his plans for bloody, torture and rape filled revenge against not only the PCs but everyone they have known and loved into action without anyone being the wiser.
    The PCs would've successfully created a monster that will ensure their lives will be so awful that a life imprisonment in the abyss would be more tolerable.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:46 No.7441938
    Ah, excellent, the council has spoken. It's 3-1, and the atheists and the christfags actually agree on something.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:47 No.7441946
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    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:47 No.7441947
    What if it's a woman on another woman?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:47 No.7441956
    A parable that will make the Clockwork Orange look like Winnie the Pooh's Wild West Adventure.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:48 No.7441962

    Not according too BoED, which states that the spell is explicitly good.

    I think that's what people are getting at by saying the book has a naive view of morality.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)15:48 No.7441963
    I wouldn't allow you to use it without the drop of alignment. That's not how Good does things. Sam Vimes and Captain Carrot are how good does things. Chivalry is how good does things. equality, justice, respect, honor. Those are the things Good stands for. Mindrape ins't one of them
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:48 No.7441969
    Hey, you know what's funny? You're deluded too, most likely evil as well.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)15:48 No.7441979
    It's not a continuous mind control effect, but a change of alignment from within. Try again.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:49 No.7441987
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    Women can't rape men.
    >> Shas'o R'myr !!TZikiEEr0tg 01/05/10(Tue)15:49 No.7441991

    This is true, and it is why I threw out alignment in my game. I cannot answer these questions, and I doubt there is a correct answer out there. It's all so situational, many things can be justified.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:50 No.7441998
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    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:50 No.7441999
    I never really did look through the BoED much.

    But are there ayone else than me that finds that a propperly played good character can be both exciting and fun? None of that lawful stupid paladin shenaniganz. Make a truly compassionate, truly hatefree character, with a heart made of orichalcum. I double-dare you, this is at least double as dificult to roleplay as any neutral or evil character.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:50 No.7442008
    You have that funny knack of missing the main point and instead fixating yourself upon some minor detail you can actually argue against.

    "Horse shit smells!"
    "Uh, this is actually cow shit."
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:51 No.7442013
    I'm sympathetic to utilitarian arguments as well. I think (and I'm not reading the whole thread so I could be wrong) that Exalted may be ignoring the effect of eroding the trust necessary for human interaction. There is much to be learned from rule utilitarianism literature (though it is itself flawed) about the importance of practices for society (which is itself a vastly happiness boosting object). There is also the fact that it seems to be human nature (at least western human nature, take that for what you will) to value ones own free will so greatly that you can consider it a first order instrumental value. Free will is not happiness neutral.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !DOD3/eopFI 01/05/10(Tue)15:51 No.7442021

    So, Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:51 No.7442025
    Which, like anything else in the D&D universe, can be reversed.
    However, I did not mean to make that post as an argument against your support for StW. I was simply sharing what reading of the thread reminded me of.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)15:52 No.7442027
    Like someone else said, killing evil things is apparently fine. Changing them so that they're good? HORRORS.

    If I ever had a chance to put my principles into effect, I would gladly be cursed by the masses and reviled as an evil figure were I to bring goodness to the world regardless.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:52 No.7442034
    It's about the only thing I ever play. No matter what I try, all my characters will always end up like that. I consider myself rather a bad roleplayer because of it.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:52 No.7442039
    It gets a lot easier if you bear in mind that a full half of everything in D&D is a clusterfuck. If you axe BoED and apply your own (hopefully simple) understanding of how alignment works to stuff, the whole thing is pretty elementary.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:53 No.7442049
    >If I ever had a chance to put my principles into effect, I would gladly be cursed by the masses and reviled as an evil figure were I to bring goodness to the world regardless.

    Evil indeed.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:53 No.7442057
    >> Masterwork Bastard !DOD3/eopFI 01/05/10(Tue)15:54 No.7442064

    Then I am really fucking happy you won't be leading the human race any time soon, because you're a perfect, unreal example of an inherently evil person deludedly thinking he's good and righteous.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:54 No.7442066
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    >If I ever had a chance to put my principles into effect, I would gladly be cursed by the masses and reviled as an evil figure were I to bring goodness to the world regardless.

    Exalted sir, this is something Carl Marx would say.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)15:55 No.7442077
    What truly good person would not be willing to sacrifice their name in the name of good?
    >> onymous !!MDfJCeQ/q4E 01/05/10(Tue)15:56 No.7442103
    alright, first things first,

    to op, there isn't much wrong with BoED fluff, it's just that most people don't like being reminded that dnd is a morally black and white system. At worst it, like almost all the dnd supplement books, suffers from having to give a good version of almost everything that is in the BoVD.

    to everyone else, dnd is not a morally subjective system as it is written. Most of us include a lot more gray area for morality in dnd because we enjoy the role-playing that comes along with it. When it comes down to it, the gods can tell you what is good and what is evil, you can actually ask the gods for realistic confirmation on things and you know exactly what happens to you when you die. These things make most moral questions in dnd (from a character perspective) very cut and dry.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:57 No.7442105
    Well, back to the topic of the original post.
    Personally my only issue with the BoED is that it seems to lack focus, it tries to cater to all of the forms of good there are without picking sides, even if those forms of good conflict with each other. If it had a focus, it would be a lot easier to say if that focus should apply to your game or not. Without it however, the book ends up going into areas that one might not want to accept in their campaign, and I've found nothing pisses player's off like saying "Yes, you can use this book, but you're not allowed to use x, y, and z from it."
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)15:57 No.7442107
    Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson.
    Commander Sam Vimes
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:57 No.7442125
    Utilitarianism, and by extension Exalted, is stupid because just because people do not necessarily WANT the thing that causes the most pleasure.

    A utilitarian would think it is right to do to someone whatever would cause them the most pleasure, regardless of whether they want you to do it.

    Whereas a reasonable person would see that there is something wrong with that. A Kantian, for example, would say that such an act treats a person as a means, rather than an end in themselves, and is thus evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:58 No.7442133

    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)15:58 No.7442136
    Aww, but I liked Spinoza!
    >> Masterwork Bastard !DOD3/eopFI 01/05/10(Tue)15:59 No.7442140

    Dear god you're a thick retard. It's not the fact you'd go all SACRIFICE! It's the horrible stuff you would do, thinking you're good.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)16:00 No.7442157
    In the real world, if they don't want it, it's not going to give them pleasure in any long-term sense.
    >> Shas'o R'myr !!TZikiEEr0tg 01/05/10(Tue)16:00 No.7442161

    See, I run a 4th Edition game, and just about everything alignment-related has been tossed out (both due to in game rules and my own edicts). I like this because it allows me to see what the players do with their characters when not worrying about alignments. It's quite amazing when they stop, learn more about a situation, and actually diplomacize over outright kill-maim-burn. Good and evil is based off actions. The Ork Waaaagh heading to the village to raid it? Players fight them to save the village. Communists try to destroy the world? Players try to stop them. Farming village full of undead? That was a hoot, watching the invoker who hated undead deal with it, and actually putting his hatred aside to defend it against the afore-mentioned Waaagh. I don't think that last bit could have happened in 3.5, with the alignment issues it brought up, but I feel he accurately portrayed "neutral with good tendencies," as he put it before the game started.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:00 No.7442162
    I find it interesting how powerful of an example, Exalted is for Lawful Evil.
    The only evil capable of being seen as good.
    The only evil that can be more concerned with promoting a greater good, even if the masses don't appreciate it.
    For the ends, truly do justify the means.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !DOD3/eopFI 01/05/10(Tue)16:01 No.7442180

    Yes it is, because you'll mindrape them into thinking they're having fun.
    Also, if you disagree, you just destroyed your own fucking argument about forcibly shifting alignments not being an evil act.
    >> THAT MAN !!ex2SO308kJD 01/05/10(Tue)16:01 No.7442187
    A good person who doesn't believe he should kill in the name of his god. Basically anyone good who doesn't worship a War deity.


    If you just run around killing people because they are evil, but have done nothing to provoke YOUR attack then you have commited murder. But if they provoke/attack you then you are defending yourself. The difference is the reasoning behind YOUR actions.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:02 No.7442192
    And now behold! As the thread auto-sages!
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:03 No.7442202
    I guess you've got yourself a singular group. Alignment never got in our way, but then... We never ran into undead farming villages.
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)16:03 No.7442208
    That's why I said "in the real world." I have no ability to mindrape people there. For that matter, I wouldn't in D&D either, because the spell needs a really expensive diamond as a focus and drains the life force of the caster. No one could found a society on it.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:04 No.7442234
    Everyone liked Spinoza. And to be frank, Utilitarianism works just fine if you're not batshit off the wall insane like, say, Exalted.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:05 No.7442245

    Have you read about the D&D cosmology and how religion works?

    If you have, you know that every Good-aligned person will go to the plane of the deity they worship, or if they don't worship a specific deity, they'll go to the plane most appropriate for them.

    And every Good-aligned plane is a paradise of some sorts.
    Now consider the following:

    If you kill a Good-aligned person while they are unconcious and uncapable of feeling anything and replace them with doppelgangers, the following will happen:
    - The person will go to the paradise most fitting for them. They will experience constant happiness and bliss according to most descriptions of most of the Good planes, for the rest of eternity.
    - They will be uncapable of doing anything Evil during the rest of their lives, making it impossible for them to turn Evil and have to spend an eternity in on of the either a very bleak, or just downright torturous planes.
    - None of the person's relatives will notice that their loved one has been replaced by a doppelganger, and don't suffer emotional trauma.

    >> Masterwork Bastard !DOD3/eopFI 01/05/10(Tue)16:05 No.7442251

    Oh dear god, now you're using financial reasons not to mindrape people into believing they're enjoying themselves and forcibly altering their whole outlook on life.

    "Mmyes, I believe I shall not make this person think my point of view is correct and his is not, for it just costs me way too much. Now fetch me my comatose little girls so I may rape them!"
    >> Exalted !OOirDpvrkA 01/05/10(Tue)16:06 No.7442259
    Indeedy. Here, new thread:
    >> Shas'o R'myr !!TZikiEEr0tg 01/05/10(Tue)16:10 No.7442316

    My game doubles as a personal experiment, to see what works for them and what irks them. When I started the game, I told them to "Play a character, not an alignment. Try to focus on what your character would do in a given situation, as opposed to law/chaos/good/evil. If an action is justifiable in the context, you'll have nothing to worry about." This means that, for example, while turning a baby into a football is still bad, if a LG pally jumps you for no reason, and you kill him, you are not at fault. I believe it's working out quite well, and we have had no problems yet. They've even made a few unlikely allies.

    >singular group

    I do not understand.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:11 No.7442325
    Has anyone archived this as a demonstration of what Lawful Evil looks like in real life?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:14 No.7442377
    In the (paraphrased) words of Gary Gygax:

    "This is my system. I've crafted the rules in a way that makes sense to me, makes me happy, and entertains me. If you find something you don't like in my books, change it. If you think something could do with some tweaking, fix it. If you don't like my system, make your own.

    "You are the Dungeon Masters and the players, and I'm not hanging over your shoulder to make you do things 'right.' It's your game, your night, and most of all your fun. So have it."

    Sure, Gary Gygax didn't have much of a hand in 3.5, but I think the message is pretty clear. Relax, folks. If you think Sanctify The Wicked is evil, run your games that way. If you prefer to play by the book and/or don't particularly care about subjective morality, have a blast. Above all, going ape at people over the Internet about BadWrongFun is goofy.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:15 No.7442386

    But that's just it, Exalted is basically utilitarianism personified, and as such is a perfect example of why it's bad.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:15 No.7442389
    Sanctify the Wicked
    Necromancy [Good]
    Level: Sanctified 9
    Components: V, S, F, Sacrifice
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    Target: One evil creature
    Duration: See text
    Saving Throw: Will negates
    Spell Resistance: Yes
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:15 No.7442400
    This spell tears the foul, corrupted soul
    from the body of an evil creature and
    traps it in a diamond receptacle (the
    spell’s focus). The creature’s soulless
    body instantly withers or molders into
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:16 No.7442411
    Trapped in the gem, the evil soul
    undergoes a gradual transformation. The
    soul reflects on past evils and slowly
    finds within itself a spark of goodness.
    Over time, this spark grows into a burning
    fire. After one year, the trapped creature’s
    soul adopts the alignment of the
    spell’s caster (lawful good, chaotic good,
    or neutral good). Once the soul’s penitence
    is complete, shattering the diamond
    reforms the creature’s original
    body, returns the creature’s soul to it, and
    transforms the whole into a sanctified
    creature (see Chapter 8: Monsters).
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:17 No.7442422
    If the diamond is shattered before
    the soul has found penitence, the evil
    creature’s body and soul are fully restored;
    the creature’s state is just as it was
    before the spell was cast. The creature
    retains the memory of having been
    trapped in the gem, and it regards the
    spell’s caster as a hated enemy who must
    be destroyed at all costs.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:18 No.7442447
    The diamond receptacle has a hardness
    of 20 and 1 hit point.
    Focus: A flawless diamond worth no
    less than 10,000 gp.
    Sacrifice: 1 character level.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:20 No.7442465
    There are many utilitarians that keep the "best consequences=good" part but change definition of good consequences from happiness to want fulfillment. Utilitarianism is more of an umbrella term for which there are many types.

    And though you are correct about what Kantianism would say in this situation, the theory is strange in its priorities, in that the means end (or whatever other formulation) is the only thing that makes things wrong. Meaning preventing someone from being murdered can be wrong if it requires lying, and you are only required to see others safety and happiness as an end "sometimes" (it is an imperfect duty). Meaning that as long as you do not fuck with other peoples shit and help them sometimes (because you will inevitably need help sometimes) you can watch someone be raped while you have a gun in your hand without committing an evil act.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:21 No.7442483

    I'm not seeing Evil-with-a-capital-E here.

    I'm seeing "I cast a spell that gives the evil creature a grand tour of all the evil things he's done throughout his life, from different perspectives, until he sees that it might not be such a slick idea to be an asshole to everyone."

    But, then again, my mind's eye is pretty near-sighted, so I could be totally off on this one.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:27 No.7442574
    No, that's a pretty accurate depiction of what the spell really does. People in this thread were just getting upset that they might be wrong about their views of good.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:32 No.7442642

    But that does sound Good. The Book of Vile Darkness equivalent, Mindrape, is supposed to be instantaneous from what I remember. At least this one takes a while to kick in, thereby allowing for the "LOOK AT WHAT YOU DID, ORCUS, LOOKLOOKLOOK, YOU'RE A DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK" interpretation.

    You know, as opposed to "Welcome to being my bitch for all eternity if you fail a single Will Save. Also, I don't have to invest a character level to cast this spell, so even if you beat it, I can still cast it again."
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:34 No.7442676

    i loled
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:35 No.7442690
    Exactly, when you really look at this thread you discover that most of it is composed of people whining about a topic they're not even fully informed on.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:38 No.7442732
    May I advise people requesting this thread to be archived, to ensure it's much easier in the future to point at this when people ask about BoED, to show why /tg/ is not the place for such a discussion?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:39 No.7442748
    4chanarchive.org for those who aren't familiar.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:41 No.7442780

    Imagine Vecna getting nailed with that spell.


    Of course, I like to imagine that the Sactify The Wicked voice is like MR. RAGE, except with less bass and more treble.


    I like how some of the comparisons were about 1984. Acting like a jerk, slaughtering people, stealing, the occasional blasphemy against all of creation, and then getting told "Dude, can you stop doing that?" for a solid year is totally the same as an Orwellian Nightmare.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:44 No.7442819

    While being Dictatorial is not in itself inherently evil just undemocratic, you cross the line when you apply methods that render people unable to disagree with you.

    If you have the means to make people deliriously happy while you commit atrocities to them, that do not mean that they are ultimately better off under your control, it just mean that you have found a more viable way of exercising your will.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:44 No.7442820
    It is rather humorous that so many people think someone going "but I don't wanna do good stuff waaaaaaaaah" is a good enough reason for them to remain an evil dickmunch.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:46 No.7442853

    NO. If we link anyone to this page in the future it will only give them more fuel to rage.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:48 No.7442869

    I can see you're new here. Let me direct you to suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:48 No.7442878
    It is not doing that though, you're simply causing them to become good at the core. They can still disagree, they can still go against you if they see you as evil, they can even still become evil again. Ultimately all you're doing is shooting them with a POV gun
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:56 No.7443011

    I was not only speaking of sanctify the wicked but also about several of her other comments, however sanctify the wicked is questionable still.

    You stop being evil indeed, but you also start conforming to the casters alignment, you also change on the lawful-chaotic axis.

    The spell does not make you stop being evil, it actively causes you to be good and more importantly whichever version of good the caster adheres to.

    And that is brainwashing.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)16:59 No.7443061
    Oh man don't bring brainwashing into this. Its such a ill-defined term to add to an already definition light conversation. Best definition I've seen is changing someones mind to something considered bad by society.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)17:08 No.7443193

    So you've just been confronted with every single "insignificant" evil act you've ever committed. All of your secrets have been taken from the deepest, darkest section of your soul and shown to you from the perspectives of the victims, the onlookers, and the passersby. You have been shown this, over and over, for a seeming eternity until something in your mind clicked.

    "Maybe I was wrong."

    Your ego-centric view of the world has been shaken and you can't really go back to living life as you once did. A small, shaky, feeble voice has awakened in your head, and it refers to itself as your conscience. Given the "tone" of this voice, you would normally crush it for being weak... but the memory of all the horrible things you did, and the suffering that it caused, makes you pause and consider listening to it for a change. Perhaps this will be the first step to your redemption: To listen to something that you once considered weak, instead of oppressing it.

    And now that you've been restored to a body and given a new lease on life, and you're lost. The world seems newer, brighter, more frightening without your bluster and arrogance acting as a shield. But there's this guy, the one that cast the spell on you in the first place. Maybe, after having spent all this time to help you, he's willing to help give you a few steps into world.

    After all, you've just gotten the chance to start again. Who's to say that this guy hasn't got the right idea? Maybe his example wouldn't be so bad to follow after all.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)17:13 No.7443281
    The problem is, what counts as "good" in this case? What'd stop some evil wizard from developing an evil version of the same spell? Isn't this still exactly like the whole Big Brother thing?
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)17:21 No.7443402

    They already did have an evil version of this same spell. It's called Mindrape. Level 9 Sorcerer/Wizard spell in the Book of Vile Darkness, page 99.
    >> Anonymous 01/05/10(Tue)17:26 No.7443495

    It's not the same spell. First, the spell is far more versatile, capable of being used for damned near anything mind-related that you can think of, as opposed to simply converting any Evil-aligned creature to your alignment. Second, it's instantaneous, as opposed to requiring a solid year for results. Third, no required sacrifice of a character level.

    It's a far sight less broken, useful, and destructive to a campaign.

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