WAR! WE'RE GOIN' TO WAR!

THE ONLY GOOD BUG, IS A DEAD BUG!

Would you like to know more?

>>12447242
I know all I need to!
I'M FROM BUENOS AIRES AND I SAY "KILL 'EM ALL!!"

>>12447259
I just hope it's not over until WE get some.

I had this playing in the background as I pitted my Tyranids against an Imperial Guard Mechanized Company. He tabled me

IM DOING MY PART!

I Just hope its not over before we get some!

>>12447259

Private Johnny Rico. A man on a mission. His home lost to the bug aggression. He now bravely goes to fight for his lost family. For his brothers. For Earth!

The Mobile Infantry is filled with men just like him, ready to risk their lives. And remember, service GUARANTEES citizenship!

Would you like to know more?

>>12447289
>>12447302

WE ARE GOING IN WITH THE FIRST WAVE! Means more bugs for us to kill.

You smash the entire area, you kill anything with more than two legs, do you get me!?

C'MON YOU APES! DO YOU WANT TO LIVE FOREVER?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThrVQKl04Ak

It's a good day to die!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIsv1YOFNys

>>12447310
He gets killed on the drop they're about to do at the end of the novel, onto Klendathu. At least, that's what Heinlein said when asked.

>>12447479

Then Heinlein is a fucking liar.

>>12447479

>Private Johnny Rico bravely died fighting the bug menace. Leading his men into battle to keep Earth free!
>His remaining kin were granted a one time chance of citizenship

FTFY

That book? Not really very good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIGHCoVzqtk

>>12447560

It was never really supposed to be a story. More like Heinlein's manifesto

>>12447560
Stranger in a Strange Land and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress were better, but I thought Troopers was fun.
And, you know, could have made a decent movie if they actually used the source material.

>>12447613
>Implying the first and third movies were not cinema gold

>>12447610
Hence, not very good.

>>12447627
It was an excellent book. Just not a very good story.

It's just occurred to me that Starship Troopers is probably exactly like what Imperial Guard propaganda movies are like.

HEINLEIN IS GOD!!!!!
YOU DON'T GROK SHIT!>>12447560

>>12447668
"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not make messes in the house."

>>12447639
I'm going to have to disagree. I thought the story was just fine: a little simple, but perfectly functional. A young man comes of age and finds his place in the world. Also there are bug aliens.

What I hate about it is not even the book's message but how it's delivered. If Heinlein had just said, "this is a society where citizenship is determined by military service and this system works" and gotten on with the coming-of-age + space bugs story it would have been a perfectly good book. Instead he devotes half the book to his strident author avatars mercilessly pounding into the reader that this system is the only good thing that mankind has ever created. I especially dislike the peacenik strawmen he puts up to "challenge" his mouthpieces. All in all it's terribly unsubtle and it ruins the book.

>>12447708

Hence
>Manifesto

not
>Novel

The two are typically mutually exclusive

"Navy does the flying, the Mobile Infantry does the dying."

I know where I'm signing up...

>>12447708
I don't remember military service being the 'only' way to get citizenship, just the fastest.
Since, you know, you were willing to get shot at.
Granted, I never read too deep into novels, so it just might be me.

>>12447667
It almost literally is an Imperial Guard propaganda film.
Change a couple names and weapons, and it's perfect. Hell, that song from the third movie needs like, two words changed to be perfect.
TAKE NOTE, GW. THIS IS HOW YOU MAKE A GOOD IG MOVIE.

>>12447613
They already made that movie, though, and it was called "Aliens".

>>12447708
I get that he was a little transparant in his pushing the service for citizenship govt but I always took that as just being in-universe propaganda seing as how most of the people who were doing the preaching on the values of that particular system were members of that government.

>>12447708
Welcome to Heinlein.

God, I'm going to go watch the Roughnecks cartoon series on Netflix.

ROUGHNECKS HO!
Live forever, apes.

>>12447752

Nope.

This was made very very clear. You competed your federal service you were a citizen. You didn't? You weren't.

>>12447888

I DLed that... my god that used to be good animation...

>>12447858

It always sounded like the was pushing the capital punishment part hardest though.

Roughnecks was the better adaptation.

>>12447924
And it's still better than ULTRAH MEHEENS

Don't know why the Roughnecks never, ever hit anything though.

Or brought their weapons up to their shoulders.

FIRE FROM THE HIP
ALL THE TIME
THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO SHOOT

>>12447458

See, this gets to the point of how fascism is so hard to satirize. If you make something that's authentically like fascist propaganda, it's inevitably going to be appealing on some level.

There are racist groups that use the hammer logo from "The Wall" as an icon. Norman Spinrad's "The Iron Dream" got put on the American Nazi party's recommended reading list, Judge Dredd... it goes on.

>>12447923
But *federal* service isn't *military* service. His friend became a researcher on Pluto, IIRC.
Hell, Rico wanted to avoid military service if he could.
Or maybe I'm just forgetting something. My favorite part was more the power armor and shooting the shit on the ships, so yeah.

>>12447959
>Judge Dredd
If anyone seriously thinks of judge Dredd as a good icon or model of behaviour I will laugh forever.

>>12447963

Well it all involved risking your life, and I got the impression it was all in service of the military. Wether it was medical experiments or field testing survival gear, the military found a use for all the warm bodies they were given.

Plus from what I recall his friend was working in a weapons lab.

>>12447963
I'm pretty sure there were ways of becoming a citizen other than direct military service. But it's been a good while since I read the book, and when I did read it, glossed over large portions in a vain attempt to find an interesting character or engaging plot point, so I may well be wrong.

>>12447923
He said that while he gave the impression in the book its military only, that there could be other forms of federal service other than SHOOTAN THANGS HURR.

I mean, if you deconstruct it at all, it gets pretty retarded (THE SAME COULD BE SAID FOR ALL SCI FI) to think there'd be that much demand for shooting thangs. Each soldier in the field RL takes something like 140 support crew.

>>12447959
It's human nature that we try and deny.
We've been waiting millennia for a non-human enemy.
On a base level, fascism is appealing to us.

This movie is the ultimate troll within a troll. It shows an awesome fascist government that, despite its glaringly apparent flaws, actually seems to work. In some ways, it's even fairer than what we have going. (you've got a black woman becoming Sky Marshal, come on.)

Then, of course, there's the point of the humies intentionally aggravating the bugs into war, and that's not even bringing up the other hush-hush fascist things going on subtly.

So you really watch the movie, really -watch- it, and you ask yourself: which is better? Our way, or their way? And honestly, it's kind of hard to decide, since both have good merits.

>>12447988

Federal Service doesn't necessarily mean the military. In the book, the military was one option; it was the faster way through to attaining your citizenship. Non-combatant Federal Service jobs were generally for a longer period and one was assigned to you as fit your talents and capabilities.

The book says that if you were wheelchair bound, dumb, blind, and deaf then they would find you a job counting the hairs on a caterpillar by feel if you wanted to be a citizen bad enough.

>>12447458
WHY DID THEY PUT THAT CHUBBYFAT WHALE RIGHT BEHIND THE SINGING DUDE

WHY?

FUCKING WHY?

>>12448011
That's pretty fair, man. Everyone serves to his capabilities.

>>12448011

Well remember, combat armed forces is a subset of the military. There are plenty of US Armed Forces members who work in public relations, or IT, or nursing or any of the other support jobs they have.

>>12447991

Well the book establishes that each soldier is a walking titan, each fielding mini-nukes, flamers and heavy power armor. I doubt the NEED that many people to be field soldiers. But combat isn't the only miltary service you know. There are plenty of buerocrats in every army, besides the mechanical crews are usually regular service.

>>12448005Then, of course, there's the point of the humies intentionally aggravating the bugs into war, and that's not even bringing up the other hush-hush fascist things going on subtly.

how did they provoke the bugs

and whats the benefit of the war

>>12447989

IIRC, one way that a civilian could earn Citizenship besides military service was inventing something useful, kinda like a futuristic version of the Nobel Peace prize. I may be totally confused with getting a Knighthood in the Republic though. Been forever since I read the book. Might have been something for medical service as well.

>>12448026

From each according to their abilities to each according to their needs?

>>12448049

Theres a 15 second news clip that mentions that humanity was intruding on the Bugs turf with some radical mormon colonies or something. Thats right, Mormons started the first interstellar war.

>>12448038

I'm aware of this. When I say military in the context of Starship Troopers, I mean Fleet and MI and every field within them. 'Non-Combatant Federal Service' is stuff outside Fleet and MI but falling within the service of the government and community as a whole: be it test subject, caterpillar-hair-counter, or garbageman or whatever the hell the Federation has you doing that doesn't involve being under arms and/or wearing a uniform.

>>12448049

In both the book and the movie there was some mention made of humans expanding into the Bug's sphere of influence, which is typically a causus belli.

Well, screw you guys. I grew up reading Heinlein, and I loved it. I can't remember whether Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress or Mike Resnick's The Return of Santiago was the first 'adult' book I read, but I loved them both, even if anything and everything referencing sex went way over my head.

And the mobile infantry seemed just as strong a manifesto on the changing circumstances of warfare as it was a political example. Facism could work, people. So could a theocracy, dictatorship, tyranny, democracy, communism, or any other system created by humans for humans. The catch is the 'under ideal conditions' part.

Juan Rico was a pretty awesome guy.

So how about that starship troopers anime?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8UtKt-COCA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfbBcrGetVg&feature=related

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=4136

>>12448068

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terran_Federation_%28Starship_Troopers%29#Federal_Service

>>12448049
Fascist gov'ts need war or some other crisis to fight against to maintain stability. You don't, and you stagnate, and people begin to get fed up and seditious. Look at the Haloverse for a similar play on that idea--both taking their cues from World War II-Germany.

As for the inciting war against the bugs thing, the Federation was moving on into bug space, not the other way around.

>>12448053
A lot of what Marx or any other random idealist said was pretty admirable if you ignore what their followers did and if you take it with a grain of salt. Kinda like Jesus.

>>12448067
>Thats right, Mormons started the first interstellar war.
I'm not surprised for some reason. I'm not even Christian, and I'm not surprised.

Why do Mormons exist more often than usual in Sci-Fi though? They have a lot of face time. I can understand sects like Catholics, but why Mormons? They're even in Niven and Pournelle's The Gripping Hand.

>>12448051
No, anyone could become a citizen, they had all sorts of paths that weren't military service, and they did their best to make them all unpleasant to discourage participation. The induction guy mentioned something about being a plumber at a research station on Titan if you weren't suited to do anything more important.

We are still talking about Starship troopers, right?

>>12448068

Fair enough, I suspect we've just been arguing over semantics then.

>>12447981

There was an interview with one of the creators on the old show "Prisoners of Gravity", where he said "I created Dredd to be the most over the top, absurd parody of all the worst in action heroes" *pained look* "And then we started getting fanmail"

I think military service for citizenship is a sensible system. It makes it so only those who are willing to put their life on the line for their beliefs have a say.

>>12448040
They also washed out, or implied at least, plenty of recruits in the book. Even the M.I., the dumping ground of federal service, didn't want incompetent people.

>>12448040
Yeah, pretty much.

>>12448105
>Mormons
>Christians

0/10, anon, 0/10.

>>12448105
The Mormons are perhaps the fastest growing sect of religious people, it's unrealistic to not include them in things about the future.

>>12448112
Only the competent and the able are rewarded. Again, pretty fair.

But then there's the problem with people who were born handicapped and such. But then, I'm assuming proper eugenics is in full force in the Federation (seems like they'd be into it), so there'd be much fewer of them. Right?

>>12448105

Because they're an American religion and so are alot of the early sci-fi authors.

It's the same reason that Doctor Who features far future UK and Japan plays a pivotal role in far future anime.

Just a note here


Big SST fan and a big fan of Heinlien.


Military service is not the only way to become a citizen. They actually DONT want you to be a trooper. Its a fast way to become a citizen.

The government in the book comes off as fascist but it really isnt. Private business are completely incouraged.

Lets say you want to become a doctor? You can become a normal doctor or you can join the Federal Doctor program which will make you a citizen at the end. But thats actually looked down on. The only thing you get when becoming a citizen is to vote. The whole point is.

Only people who are willing to risk it all for the majority should have a stake in governing the majority. By risking their very lives are they embolden to decide others fate.

Frankly I agree with this.

But back to my point. Service does not = military. In fact they DONT want you to do military. Be a scientist, a doctor, a lawyer. They got enough pushbroom men on Pluto they dont need any more military Janitors.

The Mongoose RPG setting is totally awesome, since it combines the book, the movieverse, and the CGI cartoon into one more or less consistent whole. Like the troopers from the Movie were some plan that the Sky Marshal started when he realized they needed a lot more MI to fight all the way to Klendathu and they wouldn't have enough cap troopers to do it, so they recruited a couple million civillans, gave them flak armor and the standard carbine, and threw them at the bugs. Then like 70% of them died during the battle as they got Zerg rushed and the Fleet put priority on evacing Marauder platoons and MI companies during the retreat. The Roughnecks were the standard MI, power armor, orbital drops, jumpjets and everything, and the Exosuits/Marauders are supposed to be the full out book based ones, with more guns then you can shake a stick at.

>>12448148
>The government in the book comes off as fascist but it really isnt. Private business are completely incouraged.

>>12448088

Thats just the issue. The only working example of Fascism we ever got was WWII Germany, and they definitely didn't play it the "ideal" way.

The keystone of Fascism is rampant patriotism. Find some way to maintain that without war and you have a pretty good government (note Fascism doesn't neccessarily include rule by military or a dictatorship)

>>12448118
>HURR HURR MORMUNS ARE POLYGAMIST PEDO CULT
Oh grow up. I don't even care what they're about or their controversies. They're still "Christian" as much as any other sect.

is it wrong of me to want some space marine deathwatch analogues to support the MI drop on Klendathu?

you know, some bug slaughtering before getting overwhelmed.

>>12448107
Personally, I think Judge Dredd is too awesome to care about his morals.

>>12448137
Well, remember, you only got two things from citizenship; the ability to vote, and the ability to run for office. All other rights are available to citizens and residents alike, and I got the vibe everyone was pretty well taken care of. And like the recruiter said, if you were blind, deaf, dumb, and paralyzed, they still could find a job for you, if you really wanted.

>>12448160
Italy was fascist, too. If I remember correctly, Spain was, as well.

Truffaut was totally fucking right, and you all know it.
Discuss.

>>12448161
Damn, you got trolled and that guy wasn't even trolling.

>>12448170
Yes, because the troopers in the book ARE the deathwatch analogues.

>>12448161
>Christian
>believe in the salvation of their souls through Christ
>Christ is God
>Joseph Smith is neither a prophet nor the Messiah
>polygamy isn't outright banned, but it isn't supported because polygamous families ended up undergoing mild civil strife (see: David's kids, Isaac's kids, Abraham's kids)

0/10, anon. You should learn before you try to lecture.

>The only working example of Fascism we ever got was WWII Germany, and they definitely didn't play it the "ideal" way.

Uhh, how about fuckin WW2 Italy? Pretty sure they CALLED their ideology fascism, whereas the natzees called their ideology national socialism. No one really bitches about the only fascists who called themselves fascists.

>>12448183
>if you were blind, deaf, dumb, and paralyzed
Recruiter: "So...uh...son...you probably ain't gonna like this too much, but you probably won't care since you can't hear or feel anything... I hope you've got a tight anus, because someone's MOS is being a comfort...boy."

>>12448137

Actually very little mention of eugenics. Plenty of shady biological research (mostly Arachnid related) in the games and spin-off stories.

That they make accommodation for people with disabilities to become Citizens provides evidence for the lack of a eugenics program.

>>12448148

See, I don't know where this conception that Fascists were anti-capitalist comes from. The industrialists loved the fascists, hell Mussolini got his start hiring the blackshirts out to beat the hell out of union organizers.

I'd also suggest that risking your life for an ideal, whatever it is, is not necessarily proof of great moral virtue. Pic related.

>>12448183

Ya the movie added in the few scenes where they talked about getting other stuff. The woman in the shower talking about "I want to have a baby" and stuff made it seem that life wasn't that great without citizenship.

Even though Rico's dad was totally loaded and had a good life without being a citizen...

>>12448220
Actually despite calling themselves Fascist, they weren't very fascist as far as the modern understanding of the term goes.

So basically, ITT: Federation is fascism almost done right, and we have no fucking clue what fascism really is.

I want to start an Imperial Guard army just so I can paint the side of a Valkyrie with "REMEMBER KLENDATHU"

>>12448237
It's a viewpoint centered on America that rises out of their demonisation of Socialism.

>I'd also suggest that risking your life for an ideal, whatever it is, is not necessarily proof of great moral virtue. Pic related.
Absolutely agree. Martyrdom is not merit.

>>12448257

Use the MI flag for your regimental colors.

>>12448248
>>12448253
Protip: Fascism as a political term is barely definable at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

>>12448243
Well, remember, Rico was supposed to be the 'pretty white boy' in that movie.
>>12448237
>I'd also suggest that risking your life for an ideal, whatever it is, is not necessarily proof of great moral virtue.
I think the idea was more "If you want to govern the people, you must first serve the people," as far as citizenship goes.
Which, to my western mind, seems like a decent ideal.

>>12448217
>>12448210
>0/10, anon.
Well then, explain chucklefucks. I'm not a Christian. I'm not trolling about whether Mormons are bad or good or even what are they.

I fail to see what "0/10" is for when I'm not trolling, and Mormons are Christian. If you're going to call me out on anything, stop >>implying
and spell out a coherent argument from your apparently loftly place.

Oh fuck your pulpit; I'm going to sleep.

>>12448084
>the "K9 Corps" act as reconnaissance units using "Neodogs" via an emotional bond with them. A Neodog, an "artificially mutated symbiote derived from dog stock", can speak and has the average intelligence of a child aged 8 – 12 years.

Wait, how come I've never seen this in the movies or cartoon? ...Or fanart.

>>12448170

That'd work. Have a deathwatch team sent in to investigate a possible Tyranid presence only to find out that an entire splinter fleet is in the process of harvesting the planet.

Transports are gone, no hope of reinforcement or rescue, whoever sent you here fucked up big time... On the bounce trooper!

>>12448204

"It's impossible to make an anti-war movie?"

I think Johnny got his gun might qualify.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Got_His_Gun_%28film%29

>>12448243
The movie was shit


Also she wanted to have a kid not because you can only have kids as citizens. But because she would be better off in social status.

Kinda like lets say you want to have a kid? Well you want a well paying steady job right?

In SST eugenics is not mentioned and from the looks of it not even thought of. The Federation makes every effort to ensure everyone gets their chance. Thats why personally I love the idea of the government. The only "natural HUMAN RIGHT!" you have is happiness

The recruiter in the book mentions that they take anyone willing to join even if they are retarded,blind,deaf and dumb at the same time. They would find some job for them to do

>>12448297

Your guess is as good as mine, bro. Never seen anyone actually play them in the RPG, either. Far as I know they exist only in the RPG.

>>12448295
This guy mad?

>>12448278
"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power."
Must try and remember this one.

>>12448261
The "demonization" of socialism would come from the National Socialists and the fact that "Commies" consider socialism the step before true idealistic communism and so forth. Being essential portions of the two most genocidal ideologies in the history of mankind isn't good for the reputation.

Where did all these pussies come from?

1. The mormons started colonies in rachni zones and were warned, killed by rachni. No military force is moving into those zones fuck mormons

a. Mormons believe in space jesus, thus sci-fi.

2. Risking life for the majority = Fastest citizenship.

a. U mad Libs?


3. Do not hang around the pussies in space, they'll get you killed.

>>12448305
That's pretty fucking fair.

"He who does not work, neither shall he eat." - Captain John Smith

>>12448313
No, they are in the book; it was Rico's last option before M.I. service.
The recruiter shot him down in about 30 seconds and sent him off to boot.

>>12448288

Nixon was in the Navy in WW2. He went by some accounts because he knew you'd need to have gone to have a career in politics afterward, in spite of nominally being a Quaker.

All I'm saying is that being willing to serve does almost nothing to filter the pool as it were. Although I will say Nixon was a better president than anyone who came after him so far.

>>12448297

That reminds me of the phantom or a boy and his dog.

>>12448300
That movie was so boring I doubt it sent any message at all. It failed at its only task.

>>12448327
>consider socialism the step before true idealistic communism and so forth
Marxists.

what does being a citizen get you?

Rico's parents lived well

>>12448305
Actually, last time I watched the film I caught that line. She says it's easier to get permission to have a child if you're a citizen.

Breeding's being regulated. Watch it again.

>>12448321
So...a monarchy? Totalitarian authoritarianism?

It's afraid...

IT'S AFRAID!

>>12448344

I stand corrected then.

Also, goddamn Johnny Rico sucked. Turned down from cyber-dog handling.

>>12448319
i'm confused as to what this is about on both sides
dude said something about mormons and christians
its apparently a troll rating of 0/10
wat?

>>12448313

I recall a scene in the book when Rico is first applying for military service. He ranked the MI at the lowest level, just after the K-9 corps. The interview went something like

"Did you have a dog as a kid son?"
"Ya I did"
"He ever do anything wrong, get punished by your parents?"
"Yup"
"Did you defend him?"
"... well no... he was a dog"
"... your not suited for the K-9 corps"

The whole discussion brought up in here reminds me of the problem they ran into in Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

Reinhard was a grand fucking Emperor, intent on establishing a fair empire based on meritocracy and ability, but, as Yang Wen-li said, the general rule of thumb for such dictatorships was that they would generally degenerate into feeble and corrupt monarchies. But then, you look at the inefficiency and sheer stupidity of Yang's democratic Alliance, and you realise that's not much better. What do, /tg/? Both systems have weaknesses.

>>12448339
But that's not the case, is it? It's, "He who does not work (at what we tell him to), shall not have a say in the shares of the bread."

>>12448339
Speaking of Smith. Back in Highschool History I had a teacher. Excuse me for using the term liberal. Dont want to pull anyones feathers but. Well she was the "Modern Liberal"

She wanted EVERYONE in the class to KNOW that OUR NATION WAS BUILT ON A INHERENT UNBELIEVABLE EVIL

JOHN
SMITH
WAS
A
FASCIST

Every day about how evil he was and how he almost ruined the colony.

Which of course in real life he SAVED the colony with his thinking. But hey don't let facts get in the way of a good story right?

>>12448386
No, because in Federation service the job you get is what you're apparently the most capable of doing. And, you know, doing what you're good at generally makes you kind of happy.

If that kind of situation dissatisfies someone, then they're just a lazy fucker.

>>12448373
Not cyber-dog, mutant symbiote dog.

I think that gets into creepy WE WERE NOT MEANT TO TREAD HERE-science for Rico.

>>12448385
I have reached a very nebulous state in my own political affectations wherein I have come to regard even the idea that one system is the best in perpetuity, or regardless of the whims of fate, as absurd.

>>12448407
Hear, hear!

>>12448363
Right to vote for and hold office.
>>12448346
Again, they seemed to have a much higher dropout rate, and there were a good deal amount of non-combat federal service careers.
Also, remember there was a character who was doing M.I. specifically because it was the fastest way into citizenship, and he really wanted to be involved in politics, so it isn't like that same thing doesn't happen in the book.
I personally don't mind Nixion, just think he was waaay too paranoid.

>>12448363

You can hold office

You earn piece of mind

A greater understanding of the value of human life.

The meaning of Sacrifice

Leaniency

And how loud a mini-nuke sounds at 30 miles off of AO.

>>12448297>the "K9 Corps" act as reconnaissance units using "Neodogs" via an emotional bond with them. A Neodog, an "artificially mutated symbiote derived from dog stock", can speak and has the average intelligence of a child aged 8 – 12 years.

:0!

>>12448384
That's awesome. I really don't have any other reaction to offer, aside from thinking of my dog and smiling.

>>12448385
>Turns out, there's no 100% effective system of government, because people aren't perfect

Hey! Somebody just became a pragmatist!

>>12448407
A most facinating and eloquently articulated statement, dear fellow.

>>12448365
oh. Well thats the film. The guy who made the film? Read the first chapter, Said it was FASCIST claptrap and gave it to his personal assistant to read.

He actively hated the ideals of the book. He said that each scene of the film has either an antimilitary, antiindustrial, or antifascist message behind it

WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?

>>12448365

Name a monarchy that is stronger than the state it exists in.

http://www.pegc.us/archive/Articles/eco_ur-fascism.pdf

http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html

Here's Eco's take on it.

>>12448235

furthermore, if memory serves, prosthetics are advanced to the point where there is no discernable difference between real and fake. Short of buying the farm (as they say...over and over :P), serious wounds aren't as debilitating as they are these days, changing the whole dynamic of risk in combat.

Everyone keeps saying the humans started it, thats bullshit.

For starters, it was the bugs that attacked human colonists first, yes humans probably encroached into bug territory, but given that they didn't know that they were doing so, and the bugs made no effort to communicate the fact (aside from slaughtering people), it was really the reaction of the bugs that started the whole mess.

Before anyone says "oh but the bugs can't communicate or whatever", the bugs were quite capable of making alliances (if i remember correctly they were allied with the skinnies), which means they had some means of communication and ability for reasoned diplomacy.

>what does being a citizen get you?

Thirty years from now, when you're sitting around your fireside with your grandson on your knee and he asks you, "What did you do in the great war," you won't have to say, "Well... I shoveled shit in Louisiana."

>>12448429
Sorry, I have a tendency towards prolixity.

>>12448402
Not entirely true. You can be absolutely anything if you want to be. But your tested to see how good you are. Thats just in the case of Federal Service mind you. Which might be what you meant. But what I think you mean is you have no ability to choose which job you get?

>>12448428

I think if people weren't so complacent we'd have a better time with Democracy personally, but ya, nothing is perfect.

I forget who said it but "Democracy is the worst system of government. Aside from every other system tried so far"

>>12448437

SERVICE (or filling out your goddamn W-2) GUARANTEES CITIZENSHIP

>>12448432

Verhoven, grew up near the German headquarters of occupied Belgium, had the Allies bomb his neighborhood.

He came by his antipathy for military ideals honestly.

>>12448452
The Skinnies were is some sort of agreement with the Bugs. Which is why the Federation had the M.I. raid them with time bombs that COUNTED DOWN THE TIMER ON A MEGAPHONE.
...The Skinnies decided it'd be a better deal to side with the Federation.

>>12448474
Churchill, no?

>>12448474
Churchill.

>>12448243

cos, supposedly, Veerhoven read all of five pages of the book, called it "fascist propaganda" and set about turning what amounts to a philosophy book into an action movie.

Similarly, remember that federal service is kind of looked down upon in the book- Rico's dad calls it parasitism, the Doc that gives him his entrance medical is a civilian, and so on. it's also repeatedly pointed out that citizens don't always use the right to vote, nor are they any better voters because of it.

>>12448416
Whether he was a good man or not doesn't concern me. He showed a level of incompetency that nears critical mass. If you're going to break the law, you do NOT keep meticulous records of all of the evidence that could convict you of the crime! You DESTROY that evidence! What the HELL was he thinking?

You can't be allowed to hold the highest office in the land with that kind of shoddy work. Get out.

>>12448432
...Ok. My bad. I thought we were discussing the line in the film. I really don't care about the "BOOK VS MOVIE WHICH ONE SUCKS BALLS" fight.

>>12448448
...Wait, what? So, your definition of fascism is where a dude has more political clout than the nation he rules? What the hell are you talking about?

>>12448486
Thats completely A ok

But he shouldnt have been allowed to even touch the book

>>12448469

Great, the last time your prose was to prolix PFC wintergreen halted a major offensive.

>>12448474

Churchill.

>>12448471
Oh, I was talking about Federal service, and I was trying to explain to the anon I was replying to. You pretty much answered his thing perfectly, though.

>>12448511
I think you mean Ex-P.F.C. Wintergreen.

>>12448509

No, I was saying clumsily that a monarch might be the head of state in name, they do not own or control the state independent of the interests of the people, in the same way that a facist party or an oligarchy might.

>>12448543
Uh-huh. Most monarchies and systems of nobility take the idea of a social contract between the ruler and populace, or between classes, quite seriously.

"Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst."

"Something given has no basis in value. When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And force, my friends, is violence. The supreme authority from which all other authorities are derived. "

>>12448533

Didn't he get demoted halfway through the book?

"They're trying to kill me!"

"Noone's trying to kill you Yosarrian"

"Then why do they shoot at me?"

"They shoot at everyone."

"That's supposed to make me feel better about it?"

>>12448556
>>12448543

Sorry... MODERN post WW2 monarchies.

>>12448557
“Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence. Any man who has once proclaimed violence as his method is inevitably forced to take the lie as his principle.”

what do you get as a citizen

>>12448509
>You can't be allowed to hold the highest office in the land with that kind of shoddy work. Get out.
To be fair, he, well, did.
Also, apologizes, I really didn't mean to start a debate on Nixon.
>>12448486
But how else would we stop the Nazi genocide campaign? Yes, war is a terrible thing, but sometimes it is the last option you have.
I can understand antipathy for the pop-culture jingoism around it, but not against everyone that choices to enter the service.

>>12448584
I would assume he was just as much against the Nazi genocide campaign, bro.

>>12448572
Well, if it gets the job done.

>>12448557
Well thats true. I mean. The full on extreme fast way to end a dispute? Kill the person who you have a problem with.


I mean while people in the west mostly disagree with that philosopy they never have had a bad day in their lives. Look at Africa. Its the real world. Without rules and regulations. The law only protects individuals from people who choose to behave within the confines of the law.

Violence is in fact the supreme authority. You cant talk down a sword, or a bullet.


I however prefer the whole paragraph about human rights are riddickulous.
Man has no unalienable right except the one of happiness for that is a state of the mind

>>12448571
Modern, post-WW2 monarchies are generally powerless figureheads.

Prewar monarchies were generally capable of handling constant civil wars with brutal efficiency, slaughtering their own citizens whenever they so much as threatened to fight back.

Just because something's been watered down recently doesn't mean it's defined that way.

So far, you've defined a fascist as just a powerful monarch, which seems kind of silly.

So, what's the best system to run a Starship Troopers campaign?

>>12448584

The answer would be something along the lines of "I'm not a pacifist, I don't deny there are times that war is necessary, but it does not follow from that that we must place the military at the core of our politics and culture"

Eco again:

"For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.

Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such "final solutions" implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament."

>>12448623

According to the Starship Troopers RPG? d20.

>>12448616

I haven't defined a fascist as anything of the sort.

I was the one working from Eco's idea that there's no definition of fascism, but rather it's a galaxy of shared traits and behaviors that depends largely on national culture for it's implementation.

>>12448616
You're not talking with the guy who posted the quote, just as a heads-up. I don't consider the quoted definition absolute, but I do think it doesn't require further specification. So I had no reason to continue a debate with you.

>>12448612
>Man has no unalienable right except the one of happiness for that is a state of the mind
Of course in literal terms he has no unalienable right, because all of them can be taken away from him. The 'unalienable right' is an imposition of law, and you can surely see the reason behind that, if not the merit.

>>12448624
Id argue that there would never be a victory. Humanity such as it is will forever be at war. Victory can never be obtained. Be it victory against men, machine, thoughts, animals, the stars.

Everything in life is a battle. Be it an actualy pyshical conflict of a force of will. A "war" could be something such as the colonization of space, a manifest destiny of the stars

>>12448652
"Figuring things out for yourself is practically the only freedom anyone really has nowadays. Use that freedom."

Every time I watch this movie, it strikes me on how badly Paul Veerhoeven failed on the satire. The Federation seems like a nice place to live.

>>12448624
It's essentially dharma, or any of the dozens of philosophical concepts approaching the same end. The Bhagavad Gita has this exact problem. We've always been aware of and contested it; there is no solution.

>>12448652
Happiness can not be taken away from a man. Man can choose to be happy at any time at any point in any circumstance.

>>12448664

"We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we won't kill today."

TOS was cheesy, but it's heart was in the right place.

>>12448607
So, again, how exactly were we to stop that in a nonviolent way?
I don't know, I'm personally more agitated that he took the paint of SST, which had a very cool source material for a movie, and just threw it over his own little world, then his personal philosophy.
Though to expand on my views on his views, I could at least get his angle if only the higher-ups were assholes, but even the regular troopers were flaming idiots. And I don't think the guys getting shot up every day trying to stop the Nazis were big fans of war either. But no biggie, I'm not really rooting for another World War, and would really like Afghanistan to conclude, so I can't say I disagree that WAR IS BAD.

>>12448677
Given that you marked this as an exception, I assumed you would understand I was addressing your first point.

There is a perhaps-not-entirely-unrelated quote, though: “One should never direct people towards happiness, because happiness too is an idol of the market-place. One should direct them towards mutual affection. A beast gnawing at its prey can be happy too, but only human beings can feel affection for each other, and this is the highest achievement they can aspire to.”

>>12448688
My response is essentially contained here and in the post it references:

>>12448676

>>12448584But how else would we stop the Nazi genocide campaign? Yes, war is a terrible thing, but sometimes it is the last option you have.

That's not why we went to war, that was just a bonus to feel more righteous.

I archived this thread, because I miss when /tg/ discussed things, besides suptg needs something other than quests for a change

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/12447189/

>>12448728
Okay,
>How else were we to stop the violent Nazi expansion throughout Europe, and Japanese expansion into China and the southeast Asian islands?
My point was, how were we to stop the invasions nonviolently without simply surrendering?

>>12448761My point was, how were we to stop the invasions nonviolently without simply surrendering?

Get a time machine and make sure China wasn't dicked over by drug lords to end up as weak as it was for Japan to invade.

>>12448771

And then cease to exsist because you are the son of a crack whore.


WAR MOTHER FUCKERS, ANY ONE WHO DOESN'T WISH TO FIGHT SHOULD BE EXECUTED BY THE WARRIOR STRAIN!

DEATH TO THE PUSSYFESTS

>>12448771
I don't know, that seems like it could bring about...unforeseen consequences.

>>12448793
0/10. Back to Gor with you.

>>12448804
You mean full life consequences?

>>12448805
You don't even know anything about Gor, do you?
It's like you heard the name in a negative context and are just throwing it our there. You are a moron.
And war is awesome. Going for another tour soon.

>>12448814
But wouldn't a time paradox cause FOREVER LIFE CONSEQUENCES?!

>>12448805

Gor?

>>12448828
>You don't even know anything about Gor, do you?
Not a lot, no. Sounds like I hit the nail on the head though.
>It's like you heard the name in a negative context and are just throwing it our there. You are a moron.
Nope.
>And war is awesome. Going for another tour soon.
Good for you.

>>12448854
So, I'm right.
You ARE a complete idiot.
Gotcha.

>>12448805

John Lennon was shot, killed by the evil that resides in all men.

I'm a mushroom cloud laying mother fucker, mother fucker. A man chooses and a slave surrenders and obeys.

You parasites won't even last a cycle in the great colonial expansion into SPEHS. You lack the heartyness and will to survive.

Evolutions in a rut, natural selection at an all time low. Shipping out fresh meat will incite territorial rages again, will strengthen and advance us! Even create new breeds! A kick in the pants...

Those runts liberals and democrats have no idea...

The cataclysm of hippies struck a race of langering wimps, plummeted them to the very basics of survival again....It shouldn't happen like that.....

>>12448897
Hey man, I totally respect you and your Gorean beliefs. But:
>It's like you heard the name in a negative context and are just throwing it our there.
This didn't happen, so I can't say you are right. If you think I'm a moron or idiot then well, whatever. Maybe I'll think the same if I ever meet you!

>>12448904
Oh God, it's this guy again.

Pray to God.
Receive Mecha.

>>12448935
>>12448931

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=73e_1176561042


LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL, LET THEM LEAD YOU UP IN THE AIR.

LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL OL

LET THE GOOD TIMES ROOOOLLL!

>>12448951
Dat some Cars? I love that band.

>>12448931
You don't even know what Gor is, and it makes no sense in this context.
Ergo, you are a fucking idiot.

>>12448964

I'm sorry mr. Spock, logic doesn't work on hippies.

PHASERS...However....

>>12448964
It made sense to me, given the violence-driven maschismo inherent in the warrior caste in the setting.

>>12448964
I said I didn't know a lot about Gor. I've never read a Gor book. I didn't say I "don't even know what Gor is".

>>12448986
That is not nearly what characterizes Gor.
It's the whole creepy obsession with slavery thing.
If I recall, the warriors are not even very jingoistic.

>>12448993

Shouldn't you be playing WH40k right now?

I think this film has unexplored potential.

>>12449009
>didn't know a lot about
>don't even know what it is

I'm from Buenos Aires, AN I SAY WE KILL EM ALL!

>>12449025

HURRADURR I HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD DIDN"T I?

40K IS ABOUT HIPPIES

I DON'T KNOW ALOT ABOUT 40K, I'VE NEVER READ A WARHAMMER BOOK.

BUT I'M CERTAIN I USED THE PROPER CONTEXT!

>>12449038

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE.


HIPPIES FOR THE HIPPIE SPIKES!

>>12449038

I love comparing the book to the film, they are barely similar in some cases.

Take this quote for example. Our introduction to Rico isn't a hotblooded killer, its a cold-blooder calculator of a warrior. Him and a group of guys are hopping about in their power armor nuking strategic targets in a city.

>>12449053
>HURRADURR I HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD DIDN"T I?
Well given that you seem to be springing to the defense and detail of Gor, I'd say my comment implying you were into Gor was pretty justified, yeah.

>>12449086

Obama backs the patriot act, U mad?

>>12449091
Hahaha, wat?

>>12449086
But I'm not. The fuck you talking about?
I just hate people who use terms they have no concept of because they sound bad.

>>12449077
I can think of two better examples. In the book, the drill sgt. accidentally breaks a recruit's arm when sparing, saying the recruit's strike surprised him. In the film, he immediately grabs the recruit's arm and snaps it in half before a punch is thrown. Later, when asked, more or less, what is the point of individual soldiers in an age of space ships and nukes, in the book the sgt. explains that sometimes you can't just blow everything up, and you need boots on the ground to hold the place, and keep it together. In the movie, he throws a knife into the recruit's hand, pinning it to a wall, and says "the enemy can't press a button (to launch a nuke) if you disable his hand."

Kind of sucked, I liked that sgt. in the book.

In all this arguing, I never got the point of Starship Troopers.

What is Heinlein's Starship Troopers book in favor of? What is it against?

And how do we kill Superman?

>>12449077
Movie Zim vs book Zim.
ALL MY HATE

>>12449111What is Heinlein's Starship Troopers book in favor of?

Filipinos in power armor

>>12449111

Heinlein wrote the book as a way to distill his views on the viet nam conflict. Heavily influenced by the hard-on he had for the military service he was never able to do. I think he sat at some navy desk due to one disease or another.

Rico is a Filipino dude in the book

>>12449130
You need a fuck load of pencil pushers and support personnel per every soldier in the field, and few soldiers in the field killed.

>>12449111

NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS!

Read it for yourself, and draw your own conclusions.

>>12449111

It is the following, among other things:

1) Sweet-ass power armor blowing up bugs and Skinnies

2) A standard Heinlein bildugsroman (young man's coming-of-age tale)

3) A celebration of the ideals of military leadership, training, and esprit de corps

4) Exploration of a political philosophy which is essentially a fascist republic

>>12448688

The fun thing about this thought experiment, is that it would have completely different connotations if one were imagining the same lecture being presented to a bunch of pre-WWII German or Japanese schoolkids.(Which was pretty much what Verhoeven was trying to do in satirizing the book.)

It's not that violence never solves problems; it's just that the problem it solves is rarely the problem YOU want it to solve.

>>12449207
Fair enough.
Like I said earlier, I was more irked as his portrayal of enlistees, some of which deserve respect (because you do get people that enlist for the wrong reasons, of course).

Starship troopers made me a Fascist.

Not trolling.

I don't have time to read this whole thread. But consider that what the government thinks is the best use of your talents might very well not be. Also, those who have all the power (the government as depicted in SST) might be very tempted to make sure that only those they approve of, by whatever very likely bad standards they might use, have any real chance of becoming citizens. Don't like that? Too bad, you're not a citizen and you can't become one unless you go get yourself killed like your commanding officer orders. I haven't read SST so I don't know if that's in there, but it definately would be in reality if such a system were tried.

>>12449243

Took you long enough to show up, Mr. Verhoeven.

>>12449229
which is kind of sad, because Heinlein was.

>>12449243
Likewise, I haven't read it, but the impression from this thread is that the leadership of the society is not corrupt. Which would probably be an impossibility in a realisation of the society, if only over a long period of time.

>>12449243

Now, come on. What you think is the best use of your talents and what someone else thinks is are both valid. It's just that you think yours are something stupid like being a yoga teacher or model sculptor, and society at large thinks you'd be more useful as a janitor or incinerator worker.

>>12449261

Bullshit he was. You're thinking of Verhoeven

>>12449269
Well, that's kind of bullshit. I might want to be a Doctor and be assigned to be a Lawyer, for instance. Or want to be a Zoologist and be assigned as a Medicinal Chemist.

>>12449269
I didn't say anything about what you think of your taltents. Rather, that the government might very well be mistaken. People who think that they know everything worth knowing generally are. And I don't know how any group of people can think that they can determine what the best use of anyone and everyone's talents might be without thinking that they know everything worth knowing about human potential.

>>12449279

Then wash out and don't be a citizen. The federation doesn't need you.

>>12449279
Except theres nothing to stop you doing that as a regular civilian.

Its only if you want to vote or hold political office that going through the system actually matters.

>>12449298
So it's impossible for someone to contribute in more than one way? Not exactly "specialization is for insects", is it?

>>12449279
And you would be assigned to be a lawyer or a chemist or whatever because that's where you're most useful. This isn't rocket science.

>>12449299
People shouldn't be kept from voting because of being wiser than their government.

>>12449130
>book written in the 50s
>vietnam conflict

>>12449276
im really not, while he certainly believed in camaraderie and the armed forces, the books over the top nature was something of a subtly parody of his own beliefs.

>>12449308
You're assuming that the government always gets it right. Don't do that.

>>12449313
No one in a fascist is wiser than a fascist government. That's the whole point.

STARSHIP TROOPERS BOOK SPOILER:

The Bugs are actually the Japs. Space is the Pacific and it's WW2 with power armour.

>>12449313
But people who put their own desires ahead of what society wanted should be.

You decided you know better than what the whole does and were not willing to compromise that idea for the whole. That's all well and good. You can pursue that dream to the fullest and nobody will bother you for it; just don't be surprised when the masses don't want you leading.

>>12449301
You can get a normal, non-federal job, continue to participate in community events, etc.
And the federal jobs you can take are what you QUALIFY for. They would have gladly let Rico be a pilot...except his math skills were deplorable in terms of what you needed to qualify. No one bitches about med schools declining them because they failed biology and chemistry.

>>12449301

How many people actually do that, though? Pretty much everybody finds one thing to do and they do it for the rest of their lives.

>>12449320
Except that in this case it is always right. Because fascism.

>>12449316

Fine. The other fucking Asian war the US got dragged into that had the same sort of bullshit about limited objectives and not going across certain borders. Korea.

>>12449313
Wiser than? That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about you simply disagreeing with the government. That's fine, you just don't get to be a citizen then. That's why this system is great, it's vastly more stable.

>Give up all traces of self-identity to go conquer at your leader's behest

>Rationalize it by believing it's what others think of you, not your own self-will, that determines who you are.

>Fall into a conflict with another species and assume they are mindless monsters because they cannot communicate with you.

>Genocide, mass-destruction and heedless bloodlust all become routine as it's not worth sparing something that cannot think.

>Fail to realize the chitinless two-legs fight you for the same reason.

>>12449330
The whole doesn't want anything. Some bureaucrats want something and whoever's leading wants something and they don't represent the desires of the whole even in theroy because not everyone in the whole has the right to vote.
>>12449322
You might want to rephrase that because I have no idea what you mean.

>>12449337
It's another Heinlein quote. It's one I personally disagree with, like the stupid mathematics one, but that was why I said it.

>>12449337
Heinlen's quoted on listing some basic skills everyone should know, like first aid, changing car oil, etc.
You're standards are a bit high if you think everyone should be stellar doctors, engineers, and accountants at the same time.

Heinlein was unusually humanizing in his portrayal of Asians in fiction.

>>12449334

I bitch about people not allowing me to do jobs I am clearly unqualified for all the time. Why won't they let me live out my dreams? Who the fuck are they to say what my potential can't have achieved with their 'tests' and 'metrics'?

It's all about the triumph of the human spirit man!

>>12449347
I hope you're trolling.

>>12449353
In fascism, no one is wiser than the fascist government. It should have been 'fascist country' in my original post.

>>12449347
But with the assumption that the government is always right.

>>12449349
>implying there was no way to communicate between bugs and terrans

>>12449279Well, that's kind of bullshit. I might want to be a Doctor and be assigned to be a Lawyer, for instance. Or want to be a Zoologist and be assigned as a Medicinal Chemist.


Wasn't the doctor in the book not a citizen? He was doing fine for himself

he simply wasn't a citizen.

I still have no idea what being a citizen does

>>12449357

How many people make a career out of changing oil AND saving people? Nobody. You're either a mechanic or a paramedic.

You can be as helpful as you want, but 99% of people pick a career and do it.

>>12449371
Right to vote and run for office.

>>12449353
> Some bureaucrats want something and whoever's leading wants something and they don't represent the desires of the whole even in theroy because not everyone in the whole has the right to vote.

All the CITIZENS have the right to vote, that's what matters. Not a citizen? Why should your opinion matter? You didn't sacrifice anything, so fuck you, why should we care about your desires?

>>12449371

It gives you the right to vote and do certain jobs. I think cops, politicians and History & Moral Philosophy teachers are the known restricted careers.

>>12449380
...and you really don't anticipate the complete breakdown of this through abuse of power and favouritism in what? 30 years? That might be -optimistic-.

>>12449379

...That's it? You expect people to go out and die to *vote*, something they won't even go out and actually do when it's their birth-given right?

The only reason I vote is so I can bitch about whoever gets elected, and if I had to go to war just to do that I'd not vote and bitch anyway.

>>12449371
>I still have no idea what being a citizen does

You can vote. You can vote other Citizens into public office, because only Citizens can hold office.

Also you have access to certain special citizen-only jobs; like...cop. Not even a high-ranking police officer, just beat cop. Seriously.

>>12449360
kekekekekeke zerg rush?

>>12449377
One can very useful skills that are very important every now and then without ever having used them in your job.

>>12449379

shit that's it?

If somebody thinks that's worth dying for, yeah maybe they deserve their vote.

>>12449353
>because not everyone in the whole has the right to vote.
UNLESS THEY ARE WILLING TO WORK FOR IT.
You aren't turned down when applying to federal service. You aren't kicked out simply because they 'don't like you.' The entire concept is that those who wish to lead must first SERVE.
And guess what? In the book, the overwhelming majority of the population is fine with it, because the people in charge learned you don't have violent revolts if the people like you. Which they do, because it isn't a tyranny with death-camps and thought police.

I think people are failing to get this. You can do whatever you want, have fine old time as a non-citizen. The only advantage (besides status, which is NOT passed down in the family and NOT government recognized) is the ability to vote and run for office.

>>12449384

It's basically Plato's fantasy. Rule by benevolent, enlightened tyrants.

Really, the ultimate government when you think about it. Somebody with absolute control who's looking out for your best interests.

Doesn't pan out in the real world, but still.

>>12449349
They could communicate with each other just fine. It's just neither of them cared. Heinlein (and thus all the humans in his book) thought that diplomacy was inherently evil because it weakened you and just left you open to attack. And his bugs are pretty mindless, which is what he thought the Communists (particularly the Chinese) were.

>>12449386
>You expect people to go out and die to *vote*, something they won't even go out and actually do when it's their birth-given right?
When you deny a right, it becomes more important. People did go out and die to vote. They did in the past. They will in the future.

>>12449111
It's a calssic Sci-Fi novel, it explores possiblities. It isn't really 'for' or 'against' anything.

You could argue that it advocates a militaristic, meritocratic democracy as a form of utopic societey.

Or that it is merely a parallel to ancient greek 'original' democracy where only (male) free citizen-soldiers could vote.

From a more techological point of view, it shows us the concept of power-armoured, indivually extremely capable and networked infantry, which some claim to be outright prophetic.

Given the recent experiences of WW2, the Korean War and the Cold War at the time, several other interpretations offer themselves, but I bet tons of poeple who are way smarter than me wrote essays about it that are available on the internet.

Pic related to the Everlasting Glory of the Mobile Infantry

>>12449386
>if I had to go to war just to do that I'd not vote and bitch anyway.

Which, incidentally, you are entirely allowed to do in the Federation. The MI isn't going to kick down your door because you criticized the Federation.

>>12449380
I could very well sacrifice something without anyone noticing. Anyway, neither you nor the government are the judge of a man's worth.

I think what made Heinlein's starship troopers govt work was that Everyone happened to be a pretty reasonable guy, and not a huge politicunt like real life

From what I've heard of him he seemed like a cool old guy in a kimono.

>>12449386

Which is why it's hard to have real political dissidents. People will bitch and moan but those who would actually take action are the same sort of people who would become citizens anyways.

>>12449400
Yes. Theoretically, the ideal government. Emphasis on the theoretically.

>>12449403

>Heinlein (and thus all the humans in his book) thought that diplomacy was inherently evil because it weakened you and just left you open to attack.

Wasn't it diplomacy that stopped us and the "mindless communists" from obliterating most of our livable land with the nuclear hellfire Heinlen's troopers kept throwing around?

>>12449411
> I think what made Heinlein's starship troopers govt work was that Everyone happened to be a pretty reasonable guy, and not a huge politicunt like real life

If military service was required to be a politician, then it would really be that way in real life.

>>12449428
AHAHA OHWOW.

>>12449395

So learn. You're not mopping floors 24/7. I'm just asking where's anybody who works two or three meaningful jobs consecutively. Even if you're told you're a janitor because that's the best way for you to serve your country, you still get free time. You don't get sent of to janitorial concentration camp.

What if we changed it to something anonymous holds valuable?

>>CITIZENS ARE GRANTED THE RIGHT TO FAP
>>NON CITIZENS CANNOT FAP

now that it has been denied, how many of you would you Die for your waifu?

>>12449428

Plenty of insane, stupid or generally lazy fuckheads make it through the military. I really hate to pull out Godwin's law, but it's too appropriate to mention that Hitler was a soldier before he was a politician.

>>12449428

Military service is pretty much necessary. I don't know of any important politicians who weren't in the military.

>>12449428

As much as I would like it to at least be a requirement, may I remind you that the previous P.O.T.U.S. had served?

>>12449423
Well, remember that he thought that was a bad thing. He thought that we should have immediately started nuking the Soviet Union and China as soon as physically possible. He was furious that we didn't use nukes in Korea. The entire book is about how the military should control the civilians rather than the other way around as in the US.

>>12449435

I THINK IT'S A GOOD DAY TO DIE SIR!

>>12449428
Nope. Then all politicians would be bought by the large corporations in whose interest they fought while they were in the military. . .oh wait, that's already the case.

>>12449435

SERVICE GUARANTEES FAPPINGSHIP

Would you like to know moar?

>>12449430
Butthurt liberal faggot detected.

This is why the political system in SST is so great, cowardly faggots like you would have no say.

Michael Moorcock nailed Heinlein in The Opium General.

And Ebert's review of the movie pretty much nailed my sentiment of the book.

>>12449445

To be fair, the Korean and what was shaping into the Viet Nam war were absolute fuck ups with the bean counters trying to run wars by the numbers.

>>12449439
Thats the thing, in Heinlein's world, you don't make it through grunt camp without being a hardened chiseled warrior. They are entrusting you with mini-nukes and a suit of armor that can hold off regular bullets like its cake or something. They don't give a fuck if you don't make it, they don't need an extra body that bad. And if the training is too tough? Whatever wash out, its your choice.

Oddly enough, the thing that has always bothered me the most about the first movie, even when I was a kid, was the whole "asteroid being redirected into Buenos Aires." I mean, really, it's not like the bugs strapped a FTL drive to it, the shot it with "plasma" or some other bullshit.

>>12449435
sadfrog.jpg

You will never have a cobra waifu.

So... the cobra bought condoms. Is that even necessary?

>>12449410
If you sacrifice for SOCIETY, you may lead SOCIETY.
This is the concept. Which I think is an understandable way to judge whether a man is capable of leading other people.
Non-combat example: You can go private medical and make a shit load of money, or work federal, make a decent wage, and get citizenship in 10-15 years.

>>12449414
Not if one of the "qualifiers" for any and all jobs that get you citizenship is "doesn't have problems with the government". And if you think that would never be one then I don't think you know much about human nature.

>>12449463
>view on the movie
>related to anything that was in the book
>whatthefuckamIreading

>>12449470

Or you could join the navy where you can sleep in your uniform and only have to wash above the collar. :smug:

>>12449482
Ebert religiously read the book while he was in school and made constant reference to it.

>>12449468

Exactly. Heinlein called it perfectly. Civilians who have no idea what the fuck is going on shouldn't be in charge, they should be subordinate to the military. MacArthur should have been the one ordering Truman around.

>>12449481

You can hate the government all you want. You just have to be willing to play ball with it.

>>12449481

If you have a PROBLEM you use your VOTING POWER.

Come on. When did violent revolutions ever happen in history when the oppressed class lived under a fairly benign rule and had the opportunity to move up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein#Sexual_issues

I changed my mind on Heinlein. I would gladly live in his xenophobic military dictatorship if it meant I could have sex with tweens.

Does that make me a bad person?

>>12449475
But the execution is actually: If you sacrifice for society in a way that the bureaucracy and current leadership recognizes and appreciates then you get enfranchized. The idea of only those who help society having power is fine, but this is definately not the way to achieve that goal.

>>12449474So... the cobra bought condoms. Is that even necessary?


no no, her husubando came over to play vidya and brought her a gift, but she has found condoms, his ulterior motive.

She feels a little angry, but blushes at the thought of being pounded by a warm blooded mammal of a man.

>>12449498
You don't have voting power because in order to get it, you have to love the government.

>>12449500

SERVICE GUARANTEES FAPPINGSHIP

Would you like to know moar?

>>12449481

Then my friend I have a question for you. Why if it is human nature for a government to confirm its state in such a way, are you allowed to vote? If things are as you say every government would hedge their bets in such a way.

The thing that holds it up is the voting system itself, we have a congress where that shit would never get passed, they have the same. They don't vote for a leader and call it a day, they have counsels and everything as well.

>>12449500

No. A horny young girl knows what she's doing.

>>12449505
But are the rubbers needed? I mean... it's a snake, man.

>>12449470
Now that we've already brought it up, I don't feel so bad about resorting to this example: Hitler served with distinction. By all accounts he was a model soldier. He probably would have made it through training. Being a good soldier and being a good person are orthogonal.

>>12449506

Yeah, okay man. As if any sort of democracy is composed entirely of patriotic people who love the country.

>>12449523
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying there. However, the idea that the SST congress would never pass such laws is hopelessly optimistic.

>>12449543

Who said they loved it?
They could just be self-interested bastards with grossly inflated senses of self-worth. They gave up (x) years of their lives for the ability to run for office and call the shots. They're invested into the system and all it embodies, love doesn't enter into the equation.

>>12449506

No where in any of the job reqs is it that you have to give two shits about the government. You simply have to oath.
>I, being of legal age, of my own free will without coercion, promise, or inducement of any sort, after having been duly advised and warned of the meaning and consequences of this oath do now enroll in the Federal Service of the Terran Federation for a term of not less than two years and as much longer as may be required by the needs of the Service. I swear to uphold and defend the Constitutional liberties and privileges of all citizens and lawful residents of the Federation, its associated states and territories, to perform, on or off Terra, such duties of any lawful nature as may be assigned to me by lawful direct or delegated authority and to obey all lawful orders of the Commander-in-Chief of the Terran Service and of all officers or delegated persons placed over me and to require such obedience from all members of the Service or other persons or non-human beings lawfully placed under my orders and, on being honourably discharged at the completion of my full term of active service or upon being placed on inactive retired status after having completed such full term, to carry out all duties and obligations and to enjoy all privileges of Federation citizenship including but not limited to the duty, obligation and privilege of exercising sovereign franchise for the rest of my natural life unless stripped of honour by verdict, finally sustained, of court of my sovereign peers. So help me God.

>>12449533

They don't care about you being a good person either. Heinlein also included capital punishment in his world. If you served through your citizenship then proceeded to steal everything not nailed down... to the whipping post with you!

And once again I cannot stress this enough, a law that controls Federal Service would never pass, a cornerstone of the system is ANYONE CAN SERVE. Just as today's United States has as a cornerstone EVERYONE CAN VOTE

>>12449533

You know that Hitler was hit with mustard gas?

>>12449558

> The idea of the US congress not passing a law limiting votes to the Republican/Democratic party is hopelessly optimistic

See? sounds pretty stupid when applied to the real world doesn't it? Thats what I was getting at. They're voting system is no different from ours, except military service to gain your vote, rather than waiting an arbitrary number of years.

>>12449564
But I'm saying that eventually, officially or unofficially, thinking that Big Brother is the best thing ever and always right and such will become a requirement. It's human nature.

I think you're all missing the point.

What's great about the SST system is that you have to be able to make it through boot camp in order to have any say in politics. That means only soldiers get into government, only they can vote, and everyone else just has to follow along. No more weak liberal politicians constantly pandering to welfare queens, lazy union slobs, and minorities, just real patriots in charge of everything. It's perfect.

>>12449607

Or you know research scientists on pluto. Or blind, deaf, paraplegic dudes who counted the number of hairs on caterpillars by touch for 2 years straight. Or dudes who did survival gear testing.

>>12449597
Their voting system is very different from ours though. Having different qualifications for voting is a really big difference.

>>12449604

>human nature to love government

Yes sir, it sure is.

It seems to me that human nature is to not give a fuck about government, since for most of history people have had jack shit to say about it.

>>12449607
Right, cause nobody who made it through boot camp ever did anything really stupid. Do I really need to go find a list of millitary disasters?

>>12449639
What? No, I'm saying that it's human nature for those who decide who can vote to decide that only the people who like them can.

>>12449604

They don't spy on you. They leave you the fuck alone.

If you're claiming that this new system will eventually change into that, then take a look at your own system for a while.

>>12449628
So smart people, dedicated people, and brave people. Again, no liberals. That's what I'm getting at. All the lazy slobs who sit back and expect the world to spoon feed them get exactly what they deserve, absolutely nothing.

>>12449655
Yes, I was saying it would eventually change into that, as well as other problems. I did not say the USA was without flaws that need desperately to be fixed.

>>12449628
The really funny thing about everyone ignoring other federal service jobs? The M.I. is one of the smaller branches of the Federation. And they have a career option too (So you know, active military members have zero say in government), so you have the most enthusiastic about their job not actually getting into government at all.
So apparently this exceedingly small group of voters controls the entire Federation in a majority rules limited democracy.

>>12449642

how about just looking for US presidents who were terrible? Odds are better than even they'd still be SST citizens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_by_military_service

>>12449662
My, aren't you a simplistic moron. Or a troll, in which case, 5/10.

>>12449639
No, it's human nature for the people in power to make it the requirement. The only reason we don't have people trying to do that now is that our current system of voting is far to broad for it to gain enough support. That's the strength of having so many people with the power to vote, it makes it somewhat more difficult for you to restrict peoples rights.

>>12449672
It might be because it's late, but I didn't follow that at all.

>>12449672

What about the Sky Marshal, s/he seems to lead a fairly active political life - that is, when they aren't leading stirring political ballads.

>>12449707

SM in books != SM in movies.

>>12449673

Its not supposed to weed out the good and the bad, its supposed to weed out those who want it and those who don't. That "want" to vote, going so far as devoting 5+ years of your life or getting shot at to get the ability to vote, will look into they're representatives. Be on the lookout for cheating politicians, look up policy decisions etc. Instead of the apathetic lot we get who vote "Blue v Red" every goddam time

>>12449707
That's the movies, which are nothing but a 5 year old's attempts to mock the work far greater than anything he could possibly hope to comprehend.

>>12449701

Basically those who have the highest esprit de corps are also the least likely to vote because they are most likely to go career or simply buy themselves some nice real estate.

>>12449687

Instead of that broad spectrum you get people who you can't fool, because they're watching you. They risked they're lives to vote and now they know what a priviledge it is to do so. they'll protect that ability through their own votes.

>>12449715
>>12449728

Yeah okay, I got that. But the SM is the commander-in-chief of both the Fleet and the MI. Does that confer any political authority or bearing at all? Does the SM get a say in when/if the Federation goes to war or are they more like an adviser to an entity that gives them the Fleet/MI's marching orders?

>>12449701
A vocal number of people are saying that the Federation in SST is run by former military fascists.
Military veterans make up one of the smallest voting groups in the book, by virtue of the fact that a lot of people don't want to do that work, and the Federation actively tries to find other jobs for potential citizens to do.
My point is, in the book, you have vastly more citizens who performed non-combat jobs then you have ex-soldiers. Military citizens are a minority group.

>>12449490
>Unit 741
Christ no.

>>12449727

This is a good point. After working for your right to vote, you sure exercise it. A sizable group of people who have a lot more direct influence on the political scene than people today who still have family outside the citizenship should be able to put a stop to those shenanigans.

Remember, bad (really terrible bad, you know) shit doesn't happen in our system because it's too convoluted and fucked up to make anything big happen, not because anybody keeps an eye on it.

>>12449766
The main issue is not that there are military fascists, it's the natural consequences of a small ruling majority with fascist powers and protectionism. Just look at what happened to Sparta.

>>12449777
If you're referring to the Japanese chem/bio weapons unit that conducted horrifying human experiments, that would be Unit 731.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

>>12449735
I still don't understand. I'll take that as an indication that I'm too tired to continue this discussion.

Goodnight.

>Starship Troopers thread
>300+ thought-provoking replies every time
I love you /tg/, almost as much as I love the book and the movie.

>>12449806

A lack of military technological advancement leading to a right proper spanking when confronted by a superior foe?

>>12449826
Typo, sorry. Thanks for correcting me.

>>12449777
>>12449826

So? You liberals act like chemical or biological weapons are some terrible, horrifying things. They're just weapons, like any other. In war it doesn't matter what you do so long as you win, everything else can just be whitewashed afterward. There are no rules, when will you people get that through your thick skulls?

>>12449852
The overwhelming domination of minority interests and class restriction to the detriment and ultimate death of the society.

>>12449869
>liberals
Please stop using that term. Nothing I have said indicates my political views.

>>12449759
In the book, any active member of the military has zero political powers. In Rico's own words "if soldiers could vote, they could vote not to drop."

>>12449826
Meaningless. History is written by the victors. Of course Japan gets demonized in the history books, the US wrote them. That's what you do when you win, you write out all the questionable things that you did and inflate what the other guy did to make you look justified in hindsight.

Love or hate the franchise, this trailer epitomizes what I think of when I think SST. It might be short the power armor but it's pretty damn close. s/Tarkov/Rico/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5F6kZ7ER3o

>>12449806

Oh, you mean a ridiculously harsh caste system and complete, unyielding fetishization of military which restricted any sort of innovation or adaptation?

As opposed to the non-existent caste system and relative unimportance and undesirability of the military in SST?

>>12449907
The point is that MacArthur let them off on no charges in return for their data, bro. That's more or less the exact opposite of demonising them.

I'm sure you have some ridiculous STRONG WINS bullshit about why you shouldn't barter with defeated enemies though, so I figure you're fucked either way on this one.

Seriously. The society you propose is a caveman society. Every step we have taken towards human advancement is a movement away from the ideals you propose.

>>12449907

So basically

>all history is questionable to the point of irrelevance

Mmhm.

>>12449919
No, the dominance of minority interests. Sparta became owned by a few, because those few could take advantage of a similar system. Same sort of stuff happened in latter-day Rome, as well. This is what would happen where a minority make the decisions, with no obligation to the majority.

>>12449898

You know, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing. If the people risking their lives had some say it what they were risking them for, the society probably wouldn't be quite so eager to go to war over every little thing. It's a lot easier to send other people to die for your benefit than it is to say "this is right, now I'm going to go fight for it."

Oh wait, this is Heinlein. Diplomacy is evil, war is the only solution, and anything that might get in the way of going to war is bad. My mistake.

>>12449878

It wasn't either of those that killed off the Spartans though. Sparta fell because of Helot revolts and a general loss of political and military power after they got spanked at Leuctra. That battle was won because Sparta was relying on the classic phalanx which got whupped by newer tactics.

>>12449992
I was referring to the deterioration of Spartan society, not the final factor in the death of it. That said, the Helot revolt and the weakening of the Spartan military forces tie in to the point I just made, too.

>>12449954

You do know that once you're a citizen everyone you know isn't a citizen right? You're family stays non-citizens, your kids will have to serve to become citizens as well.

I'm sure most citizens would have a bit of a problem when you start removing opportunities from their kids, or marginalizing their parents

>>12449936

And MacArthur made the right call there. He was a smart guy, much smarter than Truman, and Korea proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. That data would let the US more effectively deploy chemical and biological weapons of its own, if we ever had anyone with the balls to do it that is.

And my entire point with history being written by the victors is that the tales about the Japanese are probably greatly exaggerated, while also omitting all of the things we did. It's a simple statement of fact. The loser always ends up looking bad in the history books, regardless of whether or not they actually were. Japan was a perfect example of this. When the military ran the show they were a powerful nation, one that was able to make others take it seriously. Now look at them. A nation of perverts, fetishes, and man children because they don't have a meaningful military anymore.

>>12449954

No, that's wrong. SST Federation isn't divided into "Spartans" and "helots". It's divided into "citizens" and "non-citizens". The difference is citizens and non-citizens are all humans, all related, all functional members of society. A helot is an animal.

Spartan 'minority interests' were anything but. Everybody's interests were represented. Helots don't fall under 'everybody'.

It's simple; the people who achieve citizenship through military service are the people willing to risk their lives for the Federation, therefore ensuring only those who decide for society are people willing to sacrifice their lives for it. The entire education/recruitment/training system was made to weed out gung-ho highschool graduates like in the movie and retarded Goreans like that poster earlier. Sure, one or two might make it but the overwhelming majority of voting veteran-citizens wouldn't be dumbasses.

>>12450033

Japan is really just the rest of the world on fast forward.

Few hundred years of noble/warrior caste dominance, few hundred years of integrated society rich in military tradition and citizen soldiers, demilitarization, rampant sexual deviance facilitated and encouraged by all-encompassing technological comfort.

>>12450011

The period immediately before the Boeotian war (or Theban war if you prefer) is sometimes referred to as the Spartan Supremacy. You know... when they ruled most of fucking Greece. Yup, lots of social unrest.

>>12450043
>Goreans
Your entire point is invalidated as you obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

post limit?

The USA doen't leave out the questionable things we did in WWII. There's little to no attempt to cover up the firebombing, nuking, internment camps full of loyal citizens etc and the Japs did do evil things, even though we're the ones writing the history books.

>>12450208
> and the Japs did do evil things

How do you know? Because you read it in a history book? That's the whole point. We wrote those books, so of course you're going to find tales of terribly evil things that the Japanese supposedly did. And even if those books include some of the things the allies did, those are probably just the ones they we're able to cover up for whatever reason (too big, too public, too many witness to silence, etc.). If you really think those are all of it, you're delusional.

>>12449898
No.

You just have to be aware that history as we see, hear or read it today is the lie that everybody who was left agreed on.

Do you really think all Carthaginians were decadent, child killing religious fanatics?
Do you really think the Germans ate Belgian babies in 1914?
Or is that maybe just something the propaganda said?

>>12450249
Little things, like the mutilation of corpses? Or what?
WWII was the last truly great war, and it kicked ass.

>>12450349
Little things like handing all of Eastern Europe to Stalin, for example.

Including Poland, the invasion of which was the the reason why most of the Allies originally went to war.

>>12450422
Your point being?
At least they weren't Nazis. That was all that mattered by that point.
No one is truly evil, as evil is subjective. Same with acts. Any act in and of itself cannot be evil.

>>12450438
>evil is subjective

I'm sorry, what are you doing in my /tg/?

>>12450449
Being older than fourteen.

>>12450469
Sorry, fifteen year-old's are not nearly as stupid as you are, liberal faggot.

This is why we can't have nice things, everyone pussyfoots on everything.

>>12450484

I sense Kohlberg's stage 4 in this one. And it is strong

>>12450036
I wasn't getting at the Helot/Spartan division at all. I didn't say: look what happened to the Helots and the Spartans. The Spartans were hurt by the extreme dominance of minority interests in their society and industry - and indeed, precisely by fascist controls thereon.