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  • File : 1282795110.jpg-(124 KB, 1458x1066, Cleric.jpg)
    124 KB Anonymous 08/25/10(Wed)23:58 No.11826926  
    I just want to save the day.

    Ride in to town, find the evil that must be smote, feel the sense of righteous indignation as I view the crimes, go forth, drive through the black hearted hordes, see the bastard holding a fair maiden captive, have an epic battle, and defeat him. Save the day. Save the maiden.

    I'm fucking tired of endless twists upon twists upon twists. I'm tired of shades of gray. I'm tired of resolving political disputes, doubting if I'm in the right, trying to find compromises, being caught between bad choices, and being forced to do bad in the name of good. I just want to be a fucking hero for once.

    But I guess that's just childish these days, isn't it?
    >> Anonymous 08/25/10(Wed)23:59 No.11826938
    Yes, it is. Underage b&.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/10(Wed)23:59 No.11826941
    Talk to your DM.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:06 No.11827017
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    A good game's gonna have both. In a good game, you fight for a dozen reasons, against men with similar drives and goals. You play politics, you fuck up. You try to do good, but often settle for trying not to make things any worse. You do your best, and hope that's enough.

    And then one day you're on patrol, fighting in a war you've forgotten the reasons for, on a side that you can't say for sure is better than any other, and you come to a town. Someone's been there first. The men are dead. The children are crying. The women have been taken. And you remember who the hell you are, and you ride out and kick ass and bring those kids' mothers back to them.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:08 No.11827050

    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:10 No.11827097
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    To protect everyone's smiles you need to sacrifice your own.
    So in the end this really isn't about what YOU want.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:11 No.11827101
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    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:28 No.11827344
    Have some paladin demotivators as payment for your awesomeness.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:30 No.11827373
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    Apparently the capcha eats my image?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:31 No.11827382
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    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:34 No.11827413
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    Sometimes the prince rescues you... and sometimes you rescue the prince. Then you live happily ever after.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:35 No.11827420
    Is Dat sum Miko?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:35 No.11827430
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    And sometimes you just want to stab a motherfucking lich in its motherfucking face.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:38 No.11827467
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    It could be, I find most of my images on /tg/. Every post is a repost of a repost.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:40 No.11827486
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    I know the feeling. I actually created a character based on Kamen Rider to do just that. Wandering badass with uncompromising views on justice and a kick that'd crack mountains.

    All those men who told you evil doesn't pay? They lied to you. Evil tends to pay quite well. And the evil get fat and bloated off the good people of this world. The reward for doing good? Well, if you're lucky it's a hot meal and some well deserved rest.

    So why do we keep fighting? Because JUSTICE dwells in the heart of every man, woman, and child. And if a man doesn't have JUSTICE in his heart he can't be called human anymore. And as human's it's our job to put down those abominations.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:40 No.11827487
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    What keeps you going, righteous ones? Why do you, as >>11827097 so aptly put it, give up your smiles to allow others to have smiles?
    >> MR. RAGE !D9l9S8Lio6 08/26/10(Thu)00:40 No.11827491

    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:43 No.11827515
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    But why? What makes you a better person? Why do you not idly stand by?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:43 No.11827517
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    Because it's the right thing to do.

    I don't need a higher calling from a god or anyone else to punch some dick in the face because he's making life miserable for people. It's basic empathy combined with the ability to make things right.

    If that makes me less happy, then so be it. To see others happy because of my work, then I am glad.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:44 No.11827531
    Once an orc asked me, a half-orc cleric of Cuthbert, why I follow Law, or any religion for that matter.

    "Way I see it, brother, everyone has a religion. Not everyone has a god. I protect those who worship happiness from those who worship power. And I do it because it's what Cuthbert would do if he walked the earth once more."
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:45 No.11827542
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    An excellent answer. This thread is excellent all around. Keep it up, paladins of the internet.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:45 No.11827545
    Because I get my smile back as soon as I see it on someone else's face. Because it feels good to be the one who gave it to them in the first place.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:47 No.11827556
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    >> Tunderchief 08/26/10(Thu)00:48 No.11827567
    Doers of good, be they open-hearted, charismatic caregivers or silent, brooding but ever vigilant watchmen, are more empathically linked to human civilization than most.

    They feel that, as a sentient, free-thinking species, we must push ourselves to the absolute pinnacle of saod free thought, putting everyone before ourselves.

    In some cases, doing good is forced upon paladins and the like, as standing idly by, or even minding one's own business begets a tremendous guilt that cannot be lived with or compromised until some good is done.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:49 No.11827594
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    I hear you, OP. My current(Long-standing) character is a Cleric of St. Cuthbert. I wanted to play a fantasy police officer with him. But for the past few months we've been stuck in the Blood War, and have to choose sides of EVIL OR EVIL in order to "get out". My character just wants the fuck out so he can go back to the mortal plane and enforce the law.

    He is currently surrounded by fuckers that can blow him away sixteen ways to sunday, make a DC30 save on a roll of 1, and is unable to fight back and just find his way back so he can enforce THE LAW! Back on his plane. I don't know what I should do. I want to play fantasy Judge Dredd, but everyone around me is able to take my freaking head off without a gesture. It frustrates me to no end. What do, /tg/? I obviously can't power game my way out of this, since only DM fuckery can make a mary sue BBEG save a DC30 anything on a roll of 1. I don't want to stop playing in the campaign because, well, it's run by my friends. Playing with friends is better than playing with no one. I've tried talking to the DM, but he just says "SATURDAY MORNING CARTOONS LOLOLOLOL!" And despite how many times I've pointed out just how immature WOD is, and how ALL GREY ALL THE TIME is nowhere near as fun as having black and white to -show- the grey, I get hit with the saturday morning cartoons.

    What. Fucking. Do.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:50 No.11827605
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    Good done for the sake of good alone is the finest a person can aspire for.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:51 No.11827614
    Life isn't straight-forward. Life isn't black and white. The stories we grew up on with clear villains to smite and goals to accomplish are just that, stories.

    But the heroes? Heroes are very real. They're not perfect--young naive idealists without a grasp of how things really work, bitter cynics just keeping on to stop the darkness from encroaching another day, and unknown soldiers who die alone in the dark with nothing to comfort them than the knowledge that they have done something worth doing. They fight losing battles, they are manipulated, and all too often they receive nothing, not even success, for their trouble.

    But they keep fighting. Because some battles need to be fought--and so long as their struggles inspire just one more naive idealist...that battle can be won.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:53 No.11827633
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    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:53 No.11827646
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    Too often the questionable "virtues" of being "dark" or "edgy" are extolled. Too often do we give in to the urge to not be the light in the darkness.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:54 No.11827651
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:54 No.11827653
    This thread gives me the chills and the urge to roll a paladin/righteous barb or fighter and kick some evil ass because evil must be purged!
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:56 No.11827678
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    "Boo will finish your eyeballs once and for all so he does not rise again! EVIL, MEET MY SWORD! SWORD, MEET EVIL!!!!"
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:57 No.11827695
    Because i don't see a reason to exist, so i figure we might as well make existence not suck.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)00:59 No.11827711
    ...wow. I have an atheist anti-moralfag friend. I am going to bring this up to him.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:00 No.11827720
    >Comparing WoD to the Blood War

    I had some advice for you but now I'm pretty sure you deserve your GM.
    >> Snapper Carr 08/26/10(Thu)01:00 No.11827721
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    Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

    Sometimes you fly into the heart of the sun to keep it going. Fightin' for justice erryday.
    >> 40Kfag from /m/ !!rthE8hgFXea 08/26/10(Thu)01:02 No.11827740
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    That was awesome. You sir are awesome.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:02 No.11827742
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    I'm going to take a shower. Have one last one for now. You'd best be still smiting evil when I get back, friends.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:03 No.11827755
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    I thought American superhero comics were more about the glorification of villains than the actual heroes?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:05 No.11827776
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    As crude as that sounds, it's a pretty good reason/reasoning.

    Me too. I'd like a game where your RIGHTEOUS HERO is overpowered for most of the baddies he comes across and is recognized by the folks, and in which he engages a great villain that can't just be defeated by a few good rolls on a d20. One that requires thinking and sacrifice, and makes you realize that despite all the good you've done, you can hardly get any help against him. One that will make you suffer and despair, but you will carry on and defeat him against all odds and walk away, crippled and alone, with the rain on your back but a spark in your eyes.

    I guess that's easier to do in a novel/movie than in an live RPG. *sigh*
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:08 No.11827794
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    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:08 No.11827799
    He will respond with "Everyone else is a dick so why shouldnt I act like one?"
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:10 No.11827814
    7th Sea could accommodate most of that nicely. The system divides enemies into brutes, which you can defeat (it might be a kill, them running in fear, unconscious, whatever) by the dozens (you can get rid of several with a single attack), henchmen, which are weaker than characters, but an actual threat (they actually use the same rules as player characters, except they can take less punishment) and villains, who function the same as player characters, though usually there's one stronger villain against a number of PCs.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:10 No.11827822
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    Time to smite, cause it seems right
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:14 No.11827860
    Because your actions are like ripples. Even smiling at someone can cause their day to be brightened which will cause him to smile at someone else in kind. I remember a few years ago, a man brought a suitcase full of guns into a crowded park. The only reason why he didn't blow everyone away that day was because a dog walked up to him and was friendly to this man. This caused the man's day to be brightened. Out of guilt, he turned in his bag of guns to the police, and had himself admitted to a mental hospital because of what he could have done. Many lives were saved because a dog was fucking friendly to another person. So just how powerful is the smile anyway? I want to find out. So I smile, and by the end of my life, I will see just how powerful being a decent fucking person is.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:14 No.11827863
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    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:16 No.11827887
    While i mostly agree, my hopes are rather low. But hey, i'm just an infinitessimal part of the Universe, i do what i can.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:19 No.11827908
    That's one weird hammer.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:20 No.11827916
    I'm making myself realize (I'm always the DM) that my bosses are always just the top of whatever group of bad people waiting to be slain without any fluff and not much role-play.
    I'm a terrible person :(

    How do the brutes work? Specific rules/conditions or they're just weak as fuck?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:20 No.11827921
    I saw a documentary once about carriers and when asked one of the jet pilot says he does not see the world in shades of grey rather in terms of black in white. He sees every bomb dropped being good and holy against the black forces of terrorism.

    But on that entire 8 month long carrier assignment not single bomb was dropped by that carrier. They did plenty of flying missions but they never needed to use any payload.

    Thats what white knighting is all about baby. Being ready both mentally and physically for years, nay decades for the chance to bring about some good upon the world.

    And if the world is cast in shades of grey you should make it your duty to make things black and white for the clarity of your blade.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:23 No.11827949

    Hope is the whole key. Hope comes from belief, in this case the belief that through our actions we have the chance to make things better for ourselves and for others. You hope to provide your friend a new outlook on morality because you believe that it's worthwhile. I hope that doing good inspires others to do good because I believe that, when you get down to it, people are still bound by that pack mentality and will realize doing good by others does good by them as well.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:24 No.11827952
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    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:24 No.11827953
    Mentioning the modern military in reference to this topic is asking for a trolltastic derail.

    I hope you realize that what happens over the next few dozen posts is ALL. YOUR. FAULT.

    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:24 No.11827963
    Don't just talk to your DM, talk to your group too.

    The major problem with white knight style stories is that often they rely too much on a sole hero - one hero inspires an army, one hero slays the dragon, one hero gets the princess, so on and so forth. Good campaigns need to involve the whole group, unless you can find a group who is willing to play sidekicks to your hero.
    Finding a group with the same righteous expectations is important; some players like the other classical school of thought: "we crawl dungeons for loot and wenches" and suchlike.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:29 No.11827998

    What would make you think that? On the contrary, my good man, superhero comics are all about the fight between good and evil, and the heroes struggle to win.

    Booster Gold is the greatest hero the world has never seen, saving the entire multiverse, and no one would know about it.

    All Star Superman ended with Lex Luthor GIVING UP his evil ways, and he may or may not have become Leo Quintam, the man who ran Cadmus.

    Why would you say something like that if the good guys always win the fights good sir?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:30 No.11828016
    The Joker

    Your argument is invalid
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:31 No.11828025
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    Either the point of this world is suffering, or it's a fuck up of cosmic proportions. Look around you. How many lives come and go without joy? How many people suffer and die in a thousand pointless ways, only to be forgotten the next day? How many people have to struggle through hell, only to then ask themselves the question "What was the point of it all?" and realize that there is no answer?

    Too many. This world is half empty on the best of days. Suffering is the norm, and happiness the exception. And each of every one of us is dragged, kicking and screaming, into this hellish world without knowing what suffering awaits us, and with no choice in the matter even if we did know. We're all prisoners here, existence is our cell.

    The cell that we all share. We're all prisoners of the same world, we all suffer under its yoke. We all have desires that are thwarted, hopes that are crushed, and dreams that run headlong into the brick wall that is reality. When your neighbor suffers, it is the same suffering that you feel, that your parents felt, and that your children will feel. It is the common thread that runs through each and every one of our lives, binding us all together in the same shared sentence.

    We are all in this together. You ask me why I sacrifice for my fellow prisoners. I ask "Why not?"
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:32 No.11828042
    The joker wouldn't be the joker if there wasn't the GOD DAMNED BATMAN.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:33 No.11828050
    the goddamn Batman who allows hundreds of thousands of people to suffer and die at the hands of a psychotic clown because he thinks killing such a creature makes him "just as bad"
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:34 No.11828054
    They're mooks. To give you an idea, the system is roll and keep, (similar to L5R, it's also stat+skill, though they're called knacks here), brutes act in groups (of 6 usually) and their "stats" are a number representing their difficulty (1 to 4 IIRC is by the rules, but it could go up to 6 if you want). The difficulty to hit them is 5+5xDifficulty and they attack by rolling as many dice as brutes are in that group and keeping as many as their difficulty.

    For comparison a new PC (without much if any optimization) probably attacks with 5k2 or 6k3 (IIRC the max you could get at the start would be 7k4 by being Castillian), which roughly means on average they can hit a difficulty 2 squad. You may call raises (+5 difficulty each) to hit (and thus defeat) one additional brute in one attack, but of course you risk missing it altogether. A starting PC can have a defense of 20 (ignoring school bonuses), 5+5xDefense Skill (max for skills is 3 on creation), so it's also quite likely the brutes will hit them. Of course there usually are more players than groups of brutes, so a player can spend one action to try an active parry/dodge after getting hit without much worry. If the brutes are forced to do that, they might find themselves without any actions to attack. Unless there are several groups of brutes of course, but to have anything remotely resembling a fair fight (though the players would likely win) you'd be looking at one squad per player character... so you might have 30 brutes (5 squads of 6) vs 5 characters for example. IIRC there's also rules for defeating people with words, and brutes are again more susceptible to it, though i don't recall exactly how (i think you can affect a full squad instead of a single person or something similar).
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:35 No.11828059
    Then read the punisher if that is the sort of moral calculus you want.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:35 No.11828061
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    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:36 No.11828071
    Don't kid yourself. American superheroes don't "win" any fights, because if they DID it would hurt comic profits, which is really what the whole thing is about, really.
    Superman will never overcome Lex Luthor, Batman will never overcome Joker, their battles will rage long after your or my existence fizzles out, fueled by nothing but corporate greed and generation upon generation of brainwashed morons who think there's any point to these rehashed battles between garishly dressed "icons" than money.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:39 No.11828104

    Here's a semiappropriate song to go with that.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:40 No.11828109
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    Hi Arthur.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:45 No.11828158
    I see. I lost some of the details, but I get the idea. Thanks for explaining.

    > you're dobbely,
    according to captcha.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:50 No.11828205
    You should also notice that as brutes die they roll less and less dice, while wounded don't have that problem, so while a difficulty 2-3 squad might be more or less like a starting PC at first, it will quickly become worse as the fight goes on.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)01:50 No.11828216
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    Some things in life are bad
    They can really make you mad
    Other things just make you swear and curse.
    When you're chewing on life's gristle
    Don't grumble, give a whistle
    And this'll help things turn out for the best...

    And...always look on the bright side of life...
    Always look on the light side of life...

    If life seems jolly rotten
    There's something you've forgotten
    And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
    When you're feeling in the dumps
    Don't be silly chumps
    Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing.

    And...always look on the bright side of life...
    Always look on the light side of life...

    For life is quite absurd
    And death's the final word
    You must always face the curtain with a bow.
    Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
    Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.

    So always look on the bright side of death
    Just before you draw your terminal breath

    Life's a piece of shit
    When you look at it
    Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.
    You'll see it's all a show
    Keep 'em laughing as you go
    Just remember that the last laugh is on you.

    And always look on the bright side of life...
    Always look on the right side of life...
    (Come on guys, cheer up!)
    Always look on the bright side of life...
    Always look on the bright side of life...
    (Worse things happen at sea, you know.)
    Always look on the bright side of life...
    (I mean - what have you got to lose?)
    (You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing.
    What have you lost? Nothing!)
    Always look on the right side of life...
    >> Iron Lung 08/26/10(Thu)06:05 No.11830133
    >>I protect those who worship happiness from those who worship power.

    Yeah. Hell yeah.
    That's damnably eloquent for anyone, nevermind the straw men so many Cutherbertians seem to delight in being.
    Well said.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)06:11 No.11830159
    herotip: Morally ambiguous campaigns are the best ones in which to play the hero.

    "You see, I did what I had to for the greater good! At the end of the day, are you and I really so different?"

    "Yes. Because at the end of this day, I'll still be alive."
    >> Iron Lung 08/26/10(Thu)06:16 No.11830182
    The means alter the ends, no matter how the ends justify the means.
    Heroes are often a karmic autonomic response to someone else's fate-fuckery.

    As for moral ambiguity....the idea's kind of worn thin.
    Each acts in his way according to his beliefs, but the consequences are only morally ambiguous to him mostly desperately wanting to believe in his own righteousness.
    Or in other words, I'm the Good Guy because I both accept the tragedy my actions will cause AND I try to minimize it. I bleed, I pay beside my unintended victims.
    Guilt, nightmares, and a receding sense of humanity are the pay of the truly heroic.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)06:20 No.11830202
    Indeed, and well said. Though I also honestly pine a bit for a setting in which true heroism doesn't have to come at a price of a crippled psyche as well.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)06:29 No.11830260
    Then that's a pretty low risk setting. Even if you're playing a hero that fights against some nonhuman force of evil, like LotR style orcs, who are wholly blackhearted and exist only to crush joy and happiness and good, you're still going to have to see and do things from which you will never recover. Orc or not, you're going to know what it felt like to hack the limbs off and crush the skulls of hundreds of screaming, living creatures. War is hell, even if you're on the "right" side.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)06:50 No.11830372
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    I sense the taint of GRIMDARK in this fantasy thread.

    We play these characters not to explore the limits of idealism, but to enact the beauty of it in our stories.
    Scars and sacrifice have been the trope of heroism for heroism and selflessness for so long that people forgot that there's more to it than that.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)06:58 No.11830414
    See, this is what I think doesn't necessarily have to be part of the equation all the time. Sometimes you just want your heroes to be heroes and your villains to be villains, and you can just take them the hell down and actually feel GOOD about it. What is childish about that? Because it's not the way the real world works? That's fair enough...for the real world, but this is *fantasy*. It doesn't need to be totally true to the realities of real-world war, all the time. It certainly can be, and I've enjoyed settings like that in the past. But sometimes you just want to set all that aside and just do real good without paying for it in sanity.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:00 No.11830425
    If it is so obvious why is your character the only one doing it? Why did evil flourish?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:01 No.11830430
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    Problem, hero?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:07 No.11830465
    Who cares? Like I said...when I want something to be a lot deeper than "see villain, stop him", that's when I pull out my 2e Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay books or my old Planescape stuff, or any of the tons of other sorts of settings that promote that sort of thing. I'm just saying that after endlessly going through those sorts of stories, I could use something lighter for a change.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:09 No.11830480
    No, but insisting that the only true way to play a real hero is for them to pay for it with massive post-traumatic stress disorders and the sacrifice of ideals for a greater good smacks of it.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:10 No.11830481
    Because confronting a character with an easy black and white decision leads to an amazingly boring story.
    >> Dr. Baron von Evilsatan 08/26/10(Thu)07:12 No.11830496

    Nobody who deserves an opinion is seriously suggesting you can't play a kid-story-simple heroic fantasy, nor is the argument that grim games are inherently faggy remotely valid. You're actually four camps here, arguing at cross purposes. There are people who like superheroic fantasy games, and they are arguing with people shitstirring them. There are people who like grimmer games, and they are arguign with people shitstirring them. Both of the shitstirring parties are trying to pretend they're actually part of the opposite camp so nobody notices their faggotry. Nobody here actually legitimately believes that either format of game is invalid, and if you'd talk to the people who actually mean what they say, you'd find that everything they say all makes sense and it comes down to a matter of opinion.

    I like grim games more. Happy games are fine.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:12 No.11830497
    I thought I was more or less trying to convey exactly that, dude. Well, that and the idea that relaxed, not-massively-thought-provoking adventuring isn't somehow "childish" or "bad".

    Here's the real paradox. Such stories CAN still be interesting...but it actually takes a lot more skill to pull off than writing a good tale of subjective morals and nobody truly being in the right.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:13 No.11830501
    Okay, that's fair. I actually just watched Legend the other day and it's sort of in the vein of what you're talking about. You're looking for something a bit more like Legend, Princess Bride, or Zelda. That is really hard to pull off correctly in a situation as dynamic as tabletop gaming, however, and that's probably why you don't see a lot of it. In a book or movie or video game, it's simple, as all character options are guided by one author or by a driving design principle. In a pen and paper game, you need to have the GM and all the players on the same page, and all it takes is one motherfucker to go GTA style and shit in the sandbox.

    I wish you luck in finding that shining game. I'd like to play one as well. I ran one a while back when I worked at a youth center. It went over VERY well, but I fear it's the only audience that could truly make it work, as it calls for an innocence that most have lost.

    >>captcha: soul-shaking brocress
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:14 No.11830511
    I'd like to agree with that, except I've met quite a lot of people that really do believe that sort of shit, dude.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:16 No.11830521
    Yeah. Still, miracles sometimes happen, yeah?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:18 No.11830527

    Exactly that. That's the whole problem with Open Hand/Closed Fist. Light Side/Dark Side, that plague so many Bioware games. You're either a shining paladin of virtue, or incredibly puppy-kicking evil. That's hardly fun.

    I am loathe to bring up Japanese games, but there was one that made morality a genuinely disturbing thing; About a young man leading armies of Spirits, with his sister being held hostage in return for his allegiance. He was gifted with a magical weapon that *hungered* for mana, and tried to drive him to unspeakable deeds. The thing is, it's not so clear-cut; It's war, and the other sides- *some* of them- greedily indulge the hungers of their weapons. The upright Justicar was honorable and noble- But unlike the hero, he didn't consider Spirits humans, merely chess pieces to use in a conflict.

    Also, don't forget- You're already killing the enemy, who can and will do the same to you. When you put it like that- Are deeds like wiping out enemy garrisons really *quite* so bad?

    The strangest thing is that the game didn't *judge*- It was possible to complete it by being merciless, without descending to puppy-kicking evil, or by being a saint who steadfastedly refused to do anything questionable, or somewhere between the lines. As long as you kept your weapon sated, or had the willpower to force it down, it was all good.
    >> Iron Lung 08/26/10(Thu)07:19 No.11830536
    >>as it calls for an innocence that most have lost.

    I think this is a key phrase.
    Far less raw fun for it's own sake going around these days. Naw, gotta be anti-heroes slaughtering evil angels, random thug and assassin protagonists bringing death to the deserving For Teh Lulls.
    Young people these days know far more of death then I did. Not the truest, most intimate kind of knowing, but one in which brutality, cynicism, and cruelty are not just expected, but cherished.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:20 No.11830546
    That they do. I'd play the game with you!
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:21 No.11830550

    That's Eien no Aselia.

    You forgot to add that you can be a complete shitheel if you want, and that ends with Motome basically possessing the protagonist and tentacle-raping the girls.

    Ah, Japan. Agree on the morality part, though.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:21 No.11830551
    This is probably telling then that I enjoyed KOTOR 1 but was tremendously irritated by KOTOR 2. Different strokes for different folks--I believe you can still have an entertaining story, if not a terribly deep one, where there is black and white.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:22 No.11830557
    Hehe, thanks.
    >> Iron Lung 08/26/10(Thu)07:26 No.11830572
    Is it necessary that we do?
    The story ends, the books closes, the ending's happy -is more really required?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:28 No.11830583

    I would play this in a heartbeat. Is this a porn game, by the way?
    >> helpful /co/mrade 08/26/10(Thu)07:29 No.11830587
    A new book, and another story
    Never stop with just one, keep going
    Keep fighting
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:31 No.11830597
    Give it time, OP, give it time.

    Those of you who follow comics may remember the mid 90s. The heroes were all named things like Dethblade or Bloodstryke, and tended to have more character flaws than their villains did. Very grimdark and edgy. We tend not to see so many characters like that nowadays, probably because someone figured out that all grimdark all the time is no more interesting than an unambigious hero triumphing over an unambiguous villain and ending with everyone laughing as the camera pans out.

    Roleplaying seems to be going through that stage right now. But eventually, people will figure out that gray on gray morality, political backstabbing, and "what a tweest!" aren't the only things you can do with a game.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:41 No.11830636
    Playing a Drusian Priest from Malfi in Dark Heresy, I find it easy to be the hero. I just act megalomanic and excessive all the time, in good as in bad.

    Some heretic destroys the Holy Symbol of the world we're on? The pragmatic thing would be to replace it and act like it didn't happen. I make the theft public and declare a Quest for an even HOLIER symbol that most likely doesn't exist, collecting lots of monies from the Nobility and sending Rogue Traders, adventurers and all faithful out to search it. Because I don't deal in pragmatism, I deal in hope.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:43 No.11830648
    >>Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

    Smiting and cleaving doesn't work. The world would be a simpler place if you could just bash your problems into a bloody mess, but that's not how things go. It's a grey world, and often enough, being headstrong and valiant will get you into an open grave if you're lucky - worst case, you wind up wronging more people than you help. Look hard enough, and you see the dirt under your fingernails too.

    Life is neither good, nor evil. Life is.

    Often enough, the best way to go about things is selecting a specific goal and working towards it without worrying about good and evil. Three thousand years and we still haven't been able to define either.

    Motivational posting about slaying beasties will get you up and at 'em, but you won't find any monsters out there. The monsters are ethereal, inside us, and the best thing you can do is survive.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:45 No.11830662
    I love that card so much, OP. Hilarius in EDH.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:55 No.11830737
    I know, but I wouldn't like my character to fit that clichee, because narrow-minded fanatics tend to become boring and tedious to play after 3 or so sessions. I decided to play my Malfian Drusian as a young, good-hearted, idealistic but able politician with a dark, Innsmouthish secret of corruption in his family that might destroy him and all his good works, should it ever come to light.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)07:55 No.11830740
    I think it's only morons that classify life as either immoralfaggotry or moralfaggotry.

    Why do you think Watchmen was so acclaimed? It realized that life isn't win or lose. It's mostly a draw, and there isn't ever an end to things, so winning or losing is moot.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)08:01 No.11830774
    And also, if I say hero, I mean a man aspiring to Greatness, not those boring tools of a person this thread is about.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)08:08 No.11830810
    It can be black and white but not easy. It could be ridiculously dangerous for example.

    That said i don't enjoy Superman and such "no flaws that ever come into play" (well there's his little allergy).
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)08:08 No.11830813
    >Enjoy your tainted madness.

    I am addicted to drinking the blood of small animals since character creation. I'm pretty lucky that our group hasn't been close-room enough yet for them to find out.

    Additionally, my family is holding my wive and kids hostage on Malfi, because I wouldn't make a deal with the squirming thing in our basement my mother introduced me to after my formal introduction into the adult part of the family. That part of the plot is pretty much the reason why I'm at the Malleus, because if ANYONE knows how to clean my family's bloodline, I will find him or her here.

    As I said, megalomanic.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)08:10 No.11830818

    >It realized that life isn't win or lose. It's mostly a draw, and there isn't ever an end to things, so winning or losing is moot.

    Sure is nihilistic bullshit in here.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)08:39 No.11830990
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    "We don't do it for the glory. We don't do it for the recognition. We do it because it needs to be done. Because if we don't, no one else will. And we do it even if no one knows what we've done. Even if no one knows we exist. Even if no one remembers we ever existed."
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)12:57 No.11832599
    Children tend to enjoy moral centric protagonists. It appeals to the moral policeman freshly instilled in their young brain. Older audiences tend to enjoy characters who are reflective of real people, characters who are morally ambiguous or at the very least are logically fleshed out.

    Adults who cling to black and white heroes are essentially overgrown children. It is likely they own every silly piece of plastic Nintendo has spawned and think the Wii is an innovation.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)12:59 No.11832626
    Inversely, too many twists spoil the plot. Which is one of many reasons why Metal Gear Solid is a load of turducken. "Surprise. Your evil clone is a disembodied voice trapped in a vampire's talking arm..."
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)13:07 No.11832715
    Moralistic characters are the worse characters, because not only are they unrealistic "hurr hurr I'm so damn selfless" but are also because "HA HA I'M ONLY DOING THIS THING CALLED GOOD BECAUSE SOME FAG AND SOCIETY TOLD ME SO AND I HAVE NO CONCEPT OF THOUGHT AND FREEDOM! EVEN THOUGH SOCIETY IS THE ONE CAUSING ALL THE PROBLEMS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!"
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)13:12 No.11832754
    /tg/ I love you guys. Don't ever-ever change.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)13:16 No.11832796
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    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)13:27 No.11832901
    I think this thread would be a good place to bring up that JUSTICE game that we were supposed to be having a few days back, but which we subsequently forgot. It was a shame.

    Anyone still up for it?
    >> Osiris' Eyes !XcNNsk9R/. 08/26/10(Thu)15:20 No.11833888
    Do the right thing; become human. Seems simple enough, right?

    Yeah, well it is.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)15:23 No.11833920
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    Sounds like somebody's jealous they can't join the stabbing circle!

    Last I saw (didn't read the thread since it was trollbait), there was some disagreement about what system to use. Something about CoC...yeah?

    And all-Paladin/Cleric(maybe) game would be interesting. Kicking in doors, smiting wrongdoers and coming home to help build a new playground for the orphanage? Oh yes please.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)15:28 No.11833953
    AD&D 2e was also brought up, and 3.5 got some votes.

    Personally, I'm fine with both, although in either case an all-paladin group is probably not going to work: on 2e, paladins have too steep requirements to ever have all of us qualify, and on 3.5 I would prefer to be a ranger.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)15:31 No.11833979
    Yeah 3.5 was the other one. UA has variant paladins, though only the Freedom one would be anywhere near viable. And not in a party with Lawfuls, I'd imagine.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)15:37 No.11834025
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    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)15:53 No.11834149
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    I don't think a board where 40K is so popular is going to be too sympathetic to your cause OP.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)16:05 No.11834252
    Yeah, I wonder where those hundred-odd posts came from then.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)16:08 No.11834285
    massive moralfag samefagging
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)16:11 No.11834314
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    Kid, this world is bloody and gray, and the only way to be a hero is to be one by your own standards. People will tell you you're wrong. People will fight you at every turn. Other heroes will call you a villain. Other villain's will call you a hero.

    The only way to win is to stick by what you believe, and accept no compromise. Never look back, and never drop your blade.

    And never doubt your conviction.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)16:32 No.11834450
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    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)17:46 No.11835159
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    A thousand times this!
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)17:54 No.11835234
    Committing atrocities is easy. All you need is a just cause.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)17:57 No.11835255
    >Creating just causes is easy. All you need is an atrocity.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)17:58 No.11835261
    Grow up OP.
    Different cultures, different people, different ethics. Humanity as a whole has done everything you can imagine. And felt fine with it as well. Cannibalism, rape, murder, genocide. All these things and more, things you and your simplistic child like black and white view of the world decree as unethical and immoral, have been, and currently, and will continue to be viewed as perfectly fine by various cultures, groups, and individuals.

    Humanity is a kaleidoscope of gray, and refuses to be classified by your binary rule set.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:08 No.11835358
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    "Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:10 No.11835378

    >But eventually, people will figure out that gray on gray morality, political backstabbing, and "what a tweest!" aren't the only things you can do with a game.

    Yes but those other things will still need to be more complex and mentally engaging than black vs white morality. Any idiot can be a hero when their opposition is clearly labeled and reviled by the masses.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:15 No.11835418
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    Playing an arbitrator in dark heresy, just completed the cleansing of a cult from a world. Tried to get back at this noble bastard, mad duellist. As the finale of a play he was running at a party he killed a lower-hiver. Just right there on stage, guy was delirious with drugs, clearly didn't volunteer. The Noble got a round of applause from the rest of the guests.

    So tried to do a quick accusation of heresy after mission via reports and the locale arbitrators, he'd been hosting a party for a cult after all, didn't even need to falsify evidence. It backfired, he got off the charges easily and got a nice mid-hiver girl my character met earlier killed (Or worse, still not sure). He even made sure to send one of his lackeys round to tell my character.

    After years of loyal service fighting witches, mutants and criminal scum, and looking right into the eyes of evil that is demons, he's beginning to wonder "Are we the bad guys."
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:17 No.11835439

    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:18 No.11835445
    O frantic thirst of honour and of fame,
    The crowd’s blind tribute, a fallacious name;
    What stings, what plagues, what secret scourges curs’d,
    Torment those bosoms where thy pride is nurs’d
    What dangers threaten, and what deaths destroy
    The hapless youth, whom thy vain gleams decoy!
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:18 No.11835453
    That's the real root of the moralfag hypocrisy though. Their actions and decisions simply aren't founded in any reasonable human behavior, and make unbelievable and shitty characters because of it. The only reason they can do it is because they're given lolplot super powers and virtually never feel any repercussions for their actions.

    As an example from the vidya. someone like Ramza typically isn't called a moralfag despite the fact he constantly makes decisions that benefit others rather than himself. This is because he constantly struggles and sacrifices to do what he wants. He loses friends, is forced to kill relatives, and gains absolutely no honor or fame for his actions until long long after his death. He's never shown as feeling superior for his "good" choices, he simply does what he wants to do for his own reasons and that's that.

    Meanwhile, Delita who pushes for the same goals with completely different means is never really viewed as evil because at the end of the day his "selfish" actions are truly beneficial to the entire kingdom for generations.

    Human beings aren't complicated, which is why moralfags are looked down upon, when they're somehow even more shallow than an already simple subject. Evil characters typically avoid the same stigma because the excuse is usually that they're lolinsane.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:19 No.11835456

    Yes, the problem with any type of society is the people in it. If you can get rid of them everything runs smoothly.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:22 No.11835476
    Complex doesn't necessarily = mentally engaging. Serious depth isn't the only way a story can be enjoyable, and enjoying stories that aren't necessarily the deepest darkest thought-provoking narratives written doesn't make you some kind of manchild.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:31 No.11835573

    >enjoying stories that aren't necessarily the deepest darkest thought-provoking narratives written doesn't make you some kind of manchild.

    Your right, enjoying simple narrative doesn't make you a manchild, it's avoiding them in favor of narratives where you can pretend things are simpler and you are always justified so your not forced to deal with complex issues that makes someone some kind of manchild.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:32 No.11835581
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    When did you start hating me, /tg/?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:33 No.11835602
    A preference for one thing =/= the avoidance of others. I personally enjoy both.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:37 No.11835650
    When you got really, really stupid about your writing. Seriously, even Kant was a much more straightforward and easier to understand writer than you. It's like you were specifically trying to make all of your stuff as impenetrable as possible.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:37 No.11835655
    >implying that a simplistic, crypto-fascist division into
    >>the black hearted hordes
    >>a fucking hero
    >was in any way Hegelian.

    You flatter yourself.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:40 No.11835679
    Schopenhauer was cooler than you.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:42 No.11835699

    More than enough people in this thread have voiced their opinions in a way that implies that is what they do however.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:42 No.11835701
    That's what they say about Derrida.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)18:44 No.11835726
    I suppose, but I also see a reasonable number who seem to be fine with both, so...yeah.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)19:36 No.11836323
    You're really pushing to get every jab you possibly can in at the moralfags huh?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)19:38 No.11836347
    "Moralfags" are largely one-dimensional. They never stop to think about what they do, to ponder the meanings of right, wrong, good, and evil. They blindly maintain an arbitrary stance, and never display any hesitation in action. By this, they are unrealistic and unengaging, because they are not human.

    The only ways to reconcile this tired archetype is to present situations where the moralfag is either proven to be a fanatic, and thusly becomes a villain or goes insane when their feeble perceptions collapse, or is forced to deeply reconsider his/her naive position for a more guarded, perhaps even hostile, stance.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)19:42 No.11836409
    Got damn it, Andariel get back in your tomb.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)19:45 No.11836452
    I despise moralists and altruists, so generally, yes.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)19:49 No.11836493
    >I'm oh so edgy, am I cool now guis?

    yeah, why not skip past the animal torture and arson and just go on to murder, it'd get you out of the gene pool faster.
    >> Stran-G-EER 08/26/10(Thu)19:52 No.11836521
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    >The only way to make something I don't like interesting is to subject it to tired cliches that I like.

    A hero knows what they stand for, what they fight for, and doesn't turn a blindeye to injustice. A meaningful idea, meant to drive people to be more than they settle for, more that what is "acceptable". This is why we have heroes, why we long to be them. Because letting the world only be as good as it was when you were brought into it is never enough. It can always be better.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)19:54 No.11836549
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    >implying that a morally absolute protagonist is not itself a tired cliche
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)19:55 No.11836561
    these days? hell no
    >> Stran-G-EER 08/26/10(Thu)19:56 No.11836572
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    So, getting things back on track (we've played with our troll enough), how many here have never had a paladin fall? And those that did, did you pick yourself back up?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)19:56 No.11836575
    Personally, I think that the morally ambiguous side of things has been so overused in recent work that something more straight and simple would be refreshing again.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)19:57 No.11836583
    Find a rollplayer DM.

    No plot. No thinking. Just killing and smiting.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)19:58 No.11836595
    It's okay, half the ones that think they're ambiguous are really "there's one good side" anyways. See also: every series that goes "people are basically good SO WE SHOULD STOP ALL WAR", which really is saying "people who make war are the bad guys and people who don't like war are the good guys".

    Also, you're basically asking for a series where you can be a total sociopath to orcs and goblins. Once you know it, you can't un-know it.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)19:59 No.11836601
    I've made it through a campaign as a paladin without the the threat of falling myself, but in that same campaign we did have to work with a fallen ex-paladin.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:01 No.11836623
    I don't know about you but I never really used the "Always Chaotic Evil" thing as the only justification for a party of adventurers going after orcs or goblins or kobolds or whatever, except for cases where the party was a bunch of relatively amoral mercenaries who only cared about coin.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:11 No.11836718
    They're bad guys you can beat up without feeling bad about it. It's like playing a Paladin: you've got a license to feel superior. There's nothing wrong with playing mercenaries - in fact, it's really the most sensible choice - but it's kind of silly to go "I want to be considered a good person when I murder other sentient beings in exchange for payment".
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:12 No.11836725

    I agree with this guy.

    Heroism and shades of gray are not mutually exclusive. Not everything has to be in the extremes of either black and white morality or decidedly non-heroic twists and turns.

    In fact, facing temptation and either overcoming or succumbing to the darker angels of your nature are a big part of heroic epics. Think of the unhappy fate of Hercules, or how Odysseus makes some mistakes of his own before reaching home.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:13 No.11836737
    The heroes you mentioned date back to a time when the actual word 'hero' just referred to a extremely powerful and skilled asshole. Nowadays it's a very specific moral label.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:16 No.11836765

    But all heroes are just assholes particularly exceptional in some area or through some freak chance.

    One man's hero is another's villain. Heroism is just about greatness, not about goodness.

    A hero is just someone exceptionally successful at fulfilling the dictates of their own conscience; whatever those dictates are.

    Think what you want to do, and if it is impossible enough and you accomplish it, you are a hero.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)20:16 No.11836766
    So; does /tg/ wish to hear of another moral-fag character in a grim-ish world who managed to create an island of sanity in an insane world and save the lives of many?
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:17 No.11836773
    I knew I shoulda stopped reading this thread at about the halfpoint, since that's usually when all the trolls and haters start to arrive.
    I'm sick and tired of playing games where everyone's a giant asshole, and the only choice you have to make is, who's the lesser asshole?
    That's not "mature" roleplaying. I know it. I know there are real, decent people out there. I just wonder why I never get to encounter them when my group roleplays.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:18 No.11836782
    Moral relativists have fully hijacked the thread, I'm out.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:19 No.11836807
    Yeah, but I try to go somewhat beyond "HEY, IT'S AN ORC/GOBBO/INSERT ALWAYS CE RACE HERE, LET'S MURDER THEM ALL FOR THEIR LOOT, THEY'RE EVIL ANYWAY" even in my lightest stuff. They've usually done something to warrant a retaliation, and depending on what I'm going for how justified said orcs or whatever were in doing so may be greater or lesser.

    They're not mutually exclusive, indeed. What I'm trying to say however is that they don't have to be mutually *inclusive* either to get a good story.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:19 No.11836808
    ITT: an hero.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:21 No.11836829

    There is universal morality, but heroes of even the sort you are thinking are a bad example of it.

    Killing others is wrong, a universal wrong, yes?

    But white knights kill in pursuit of their goal, in the name of ideals.

    So while objective or universal goods exist, you can't adhere to them and be a hero in the action, princess rescuing since.

    The moral universalist heroes are the people who risk their life in an instant to grab someone out of the way of a speeding car, or saints and so forth.

    Heroic adventurers, the great generals and warriors of the army of light, are NOT such people.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:21 No.11836836
    Not moral relativists, just fans of the original Greek definition of a hero. Which isn't a bad definition, to be fair--hell, Exalted uses this variant all to hell and I love Exalted--but the more modern interpretation is equally valid.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:23 No.11836857
    > So; does /tg/ wish to hear of another moral-fag character

    Stopped reading there. No we don't. We don't care about your moralfag character, because in the end they're all the same. They're all retarded, childish concepts that do nothing more than get in the way of everyone's fun. We don't want them here.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:24 No.11836873
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    >Killing others is wrong, a universal wrong, yes?

    Every act hinges on circumstance and motive.

    Kenshiro is not the same as his enemies despite how both torture and brutally murder their victims.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:25 No.11836878

    Samefag detected.
    >> Stran-G-EER 08/26/10(Thu)20:27 No.11836905
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    Really, where do you guys get this stuff? I couldn't get something more wrong if I tried.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:27 No.11836907
    >Stopped reading there. No we don't. We don't care about your moralfag character, because I don't like them. They're all retarded, childish concepts that do nothing more than get in the way of my grimderp shitpile all-is-depair-and-madness fun. We don't want them here.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:29 No.11836929
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    If you are who I think you are; FUCK YES.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:30 No.11836941
    Yeah, you're right. How about you tell us about your morally ambigious rogue you rolled up last night, who's so fucking interesting and brooding and dark, not to mention has a dexterity of about 4 but that only makes him more interesting, and have spent all your skillpoints on knowledge: theoretical physics and Craft: basketweaving, instead of hiding, which is so totally in your character and makes for such an riveting tale, about the no-talented, one-armed, two-toed rogue, with no aptitude for combat and A FOOL for an assistant, trying to survive in a harsh and uncaring world. Also he's a rape "survivor", i know how much you guys like rape.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:30 No.11836945

    But even those who are "heroes" because they commit objectively justified wrongs against those who committed objectively evil acts end up doing harm to those who are not guilty as well.

    Guards just working for their paycheck, misguided idealists, collateral damage, etc.

    It can be justified by the scale of the hero's achievement, but then we aren't talking about someone of outstanding virtue but someone of outstanding achievement/excellence towards a worthy cause.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:33 No.11836983

    But the great thing is, you can have those complexities present without telling the players that they aren't objectively "good" just because of it.

    You can have sympathetic characters among the villains, moral complexities, which only challenge the characters more and let them shine through.

    After all, a hero is not always universally good but a true hero in the idealized world of fiction can always TRY to be.

    Trying matters, a lot.

    Feeling bad about collateral, offering the misguided idealist a chance to surrender before killing him in honorable single combat.

    That is the stuff heroism is made of.

    Otherwise your just an exterminator clearing out goblins and orcs.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:36 No.11837016
    And sometimes it really is just a band of heartless marauding orcs who just like to roll into towns and terrorize the place. Now whether they do this because they like to eat human flesh, they have a religious mandate, because they believe that humans slighted them in the past, or because the humans really DID slight them in the past? That's up to how you want your fantasy's tone to be, there.
    >> Stran-G-EER 08/26/10(Thu)20:38 No.11837041
    .... Mutha FUCK, that is some badass shit right there!
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:39 No.11837051
    This, too. Feeling guilt about having to take lives doesn't have to =/= massive crushing moral quandaries, lingering PTSD nightmares, and wondering if you're really not just as bad as what you fight all the time.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:41 No.11837070

    Heroes have a crisis of faith but endure and come out the other side as better heroes.

    I'm pretty sure you get extra XP for that.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:43 No.11837093
    Indeed, but it is not by any stretch a requirement of a good one.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:45 No.11837122

    But then you get to exactly what I was originally talking about.

    A hero without doubts, with absolute conviction, is one morally gray, ancient Greek definition hero motherfucker.

    The real "on the side of angels" heroes, have to be human like the rest of us.

    Those who are heroes by dint of their godlike power and absolute conviction are heroes in the morally gray Greek sense.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:50 No.11837184
    There's a difference between "being able to believe fully in a cause" and "completely sociopathic knight templar type who will willingly murder babies if somebody in a robe tells him they're evil". It's not that they wouldn't be shaken up if sufficient evidence appeared that their cause wasn't half as just as they believed it was. It's just that you can still get a good story without inherently needing to shake that belief up, it just takes a bit of doing.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:57 No.11837278


    I love you /tg/z
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)20:58 No.11837287
    Can't disagree with that.
    >> Stran-G-EER 08/26/10(Thu)20:59 No.11837302
    Actually there are times /co/ has much worse trolls tossing their made up words around. Probably cause it's a faster board with more people.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)21:00 No.11837315
    Actually /tg/ on average is a lot faster than /co/
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)21:05 No.11837374
    I didn't mean to argue with OP or anyone else for that matter. I just wanted to say people have different tastes for moral spectrums. It's all fun and games anyways right?
    >> Stran-G-EER 08/26/10(Thu)21:08 No.11837415
    Oh, than maybe /co/ has more assholes... I'm no expert. Though I don't think our discussion got too out of hand, when you really think about it. I'm pretty pleased with the thread as a whole.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:30 No.11837685
    Well; this game started with me entering an established world game, a world where Alchemy was a magic and a science and worked.
    It was also a very dark world, unpleasant in every way, the leaders of all major nations were ass hats mostly, the leader of the 'main' country, was a genocidal monster and dictator who lived to declare war on other countries so he could use the dead to build alchemy fuelled robot soldiers.
    The rebels against him were worse, the worst sort of anarchists, borderline sociopathic terrorists led by one of the robots the leader had created that had broken free; and his plan was to kill the leader, all the government and then let the people above collapse in on themselves and then rise from the ashes.
    Then there were roving elements, from a guy who basically had the power to meld people with animals, to one man who was effectively a Mask Slasher from nWoD with a sword the size of him who had been melded with a tree and a lump of pure *Generic Adamantine like metal here*.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:31 No.11837699
    My character was a foreign noble from a far away country, far across the desert, who's only power was healing alchemy.
    Nothing offensive, never used a weapon in his life.
    Just healing.
    His name was Corvek, and he was from a Pseudo-china country, his background was that he had always been ill as a child, and still was quite often really, so his mother and father coddled him for it, even after he started getting better, so he spent all his time learning alchemy and was a sort of genius at medical alchemy.
    He left his home country to learn the New Alchemy, as it was called, the alchemy recently discovered in this war torn country that allowed dead men’s souls to be caught and used to animate Robots and to power machines of war.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)21:31 No.11837701
    Yeah, that's fair enough. No worries.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:32 No.11837711
    His exact reason was curiosity and thinking of the medical potential.
    When he left home, his parents freaked and set an entire segment of their personal guard after him, following him into the war-torn country beyond the desert.
    Corvek was basically an idiot sometimes, he was idealistic, naive, charming, seemingly useless, had a weak constitution and was pale due to years indoors, with no muscle or extraordinary ability...he didn't even know what money was before he left home really, or the price of a loaf of bread.
    But he believed in people, and every time he blew into a town following a rumour of a non-state sponsored alchemist he could learn off, he'd see the people suffering, and do what he could, everyone only realizing after he left what he had done for them, that this person was no longer ill, that that man was coming home...that the child was delivered and safe, even though the town doctor was drunk in the tavern while it was meant to be being delivered and couldn't even see.
    And every time they would come after him, maybe only 1 or 2 people a time, but they did, and none ever caught up, but they dedicated their lives to his way of life...to, being...well, good, and kind, and healing others and guarding people from danger even if they couldn't do much.
    And he picked up his own followers as well sometimes, people who were so...damaged, that they had no reason to go on without him, he ended up with 5 major followers.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:33 No.11837726
    The first was a woman whose family had been murdered when she was young, she went from a hard bitten, cynical, cold hearted bitch, to a kind, loving woman, who coddled him for being too soft, but did what she could for people.
    The 2nd was a man who had been made half robot by the alchemists in an experiment, turning his flesh directly into metal; Corvek promised to help turn him back, so he could see his family again and not be ashamed...he became a guardian of the weak, his metal body acting as a shield for those who’s bodies did not deflect bullets.
    The 3rd was a young girl, only 15, who’s family had been part of a racial cull; and who had been living on the streets when Corvek found her; he offered to help her, and she offered him her body in return, he said that he didn't need payment and was shocked she thought he wanted something back. She came to become the 2nd greatest medical alchemist in the world.
    The other 2 were a pair of twin men, each in their 60s, genius alchemists who had lost their licenses and were living in the attic of an old, bombed out house, trying to do research into how to create a human body from the basic elements, to bring the dead truly back to life.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:36 No.11837758
    And slowly, this cult built up, following him around, followed by the guards who were after him, then government officially started trailing them all, trying to find out what was going on, then the rebels started following them... as well as several BBEG figures who had, for some reason, taken personal offense at the idea of a truly good man in their war torn hell hole.
    A huge conga line of anarchy across the country, following this naive young man who had become a messiah figure without even noticing it, they thought he could save them.
    The government caught up with him first, trying to bring him in to try and find out what was going on, but they were 'shoot first, ask questions later'; we escaped and my character realized that they would come again, so he and the other 5 fled quickly across the country, trying to escape, only to find the borders were closed.
    So he gave himself up, was questioned in the worst ways possible, and let go.
    When they took him in, he saw what they did to prisoners and felt it.
    He promised to try and help those people.
    And so he joined the rebels, for about a week, before realizing they were no better.
    So he started his own faction, the 5 of them, hiding in an old mountain fortress in the middle of no where, beyond the eyes of the war, just outside the country borders, taking in refugees and helping them as they could.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:37 No.11837768
    Eventually the BBEG-a-likes caught up with him one at a time and were beaten back, since, by this point, Corvek could heal himself and anyone else within his sight at will of nearly any wounds. And through wit, stout determination and single minded fortitude they managed to defeat them.
    Eventually, the entire cult caught up with him, just as people started to hear about this place; and it became a country in its own right, due to sheer size. By this point most of the 'cult following' had learned some basic alchemy themselves and Corvek was the best medical alchemist in the country by far, able to do things like regrow limbs for people with little to no effort.
    And so the city slowly grew, and the government of the war torn country next door took notice.
    They declared this peaceful settlement, ran by a man they knew meant them no harm and who didn't even know how to fire a gun to be a risk to national security and attacked.
    This country showed no mercy to its fallen enemies, ever.
    So Corvek made a hard choice, he told them all to escape through the tunnels under the city, only for them all to turn around and tell him 'No; this is our home now, we will not give it up'
    It was also a city with the largest concentration of alchemists in the world by now, as everyone learned basic alchemy.
    And while only the basics might not be much, only a drop of rain...even enough light drizzle can kill given the time.
    They had a plan between them, and a week before the army of the country arrived. It took time and effort, but they did it.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:38 No.11837774
    The army arrived; and started their siege of the Fortress; high in the mountains.
    Only to realize, their cannons did nothing, nothing at all...and that the fortress was growing...
    One of the things the twins had researched was how to make a perfect combination of man and material...thought impossible by most, most experiments were failures.
    Because the subject fought back, because the subject wasn't willing.
    The, newly renamed, fortress of Stoneheart was alive now. And at its heart was a chamber in which, intertwined in the roots, lay Corvek and his 5, protecting the fortress and regrowing it as it was damaged, making it grow larger and stronger; putting down fleshy tendrils and defending it from everything. Using their medical knowledge to make it grow and heal and protect itself, taking up and digesting entire seams of minerals into its walls underground.
    And then they did the truly impossible.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:41 No.11837800
    In the chambers at the heart of the citadel that Stoneheart had become, they created life. They stepped where only the insane had done before, a science considered so forbidden due to its corrupting nature that it had not been attempted in 500 years.
    Not in the cliché, man plays god and it turns on him way, they created life and it was good. They made bodies for lost souls that wished to return; they couldn't make humans...but they made something. And they made an entire eco-system within Stoneheart that protected it, fed it and grew within it.
    This would have been impossible for anyone except the 6 of them really, 2 of them having dedicated their lives to turning mineral into living tissue, one being a world leading medical expert, one having absolute knowledge of what death feels like and being able to do complicated scientific formulae in his head and the other 2 being students of the medical man…and each being quite powerful in their own right.
    And their fortress was unstoppable; its feelers slowly crawled across the land with a care and tentative carefulness, avoiding harming any village, despite its size and how many there were to watch.
    Eventually a sort of 'priesthood' rose up around taking on the sacred duty of running Stoneheart; binding their lives to the massive creature it was and binding its heart with their own willingly.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:41 No.11837807
    Well ‘Priesthood’ in the same way that any ideal is a religion. In that any country is a cult.
    Eventually the war ground to a halt, as Rebel and the government turned on Stoneheart, realizing, with horror, it couldn't be stopped, it grew of its own will and any damage done to it...well, the Stonehearters were the greatest medics in the world...and also by this point some of the most fearsome fighters. Smaller versions of Stoneheart started appearing, little living fortresses, maintained by their own ecology and lived in by refugees, who would, over time, become Stonehearters, like fungus, all linked by the roots to the heart of the effort and the country allowing passage back and forth.
    And one day, the war just...ended, the country couldn't keep it up, neither could the rebels, their robots and destruction nothing in the face of flesh and sheer, brute, healing ability and creation.
    There was one final battle before it ended; which was decided for by the group of guards who had been following Corvek since the start, as they ambushed the back of the army as it charged Stoneheart and almost breeched the gates.
    And finally, 5 years after entering the heart chamber, Corvek exited it with his 5 chosen, finally able to unbind safely, knowing that these people, and all the people of his nation, were safe. Surprisingly his mother and father were waiting for him. They had been for nearly 2 years. He hadn't noticed.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:43 No.11837822
    But, as he embraced them both, he knew that they were proud of him, that they knew he was not weak and that had grown since they had last seen him.
    He was no longer Corvek, the naive noble's son with a sickly tinge and a free heart that saw the good of others.
    He was Corvek, the worlds greatest alchemist, who had touched upon what it was to be a living God and come back a man, the man who could bring the dead back to life, but never did unless they wished to come back, who could rule the world with his new, fleshy city, but didn't want it because he was happy just looking after people, who could create life, but didn't abuse it because he was responsible and careful with his power.
    He was Corvek, the warrior Lord, who had stopped entire armies with a single strike of his ooze filled flower pods and captured entire regiments with his many mouth-like psudopods, only to not hurt them because they were just doing their jobs and were mostly conscripted against their will, instead making them citizens if he could, the man who had been the heart of a creature so large it covered miles and miles of land, and had lived in harmony with it, despite it having its own will and was the only man who would ever be its master.
    He was Corvek, the leader of the cult of Corvek, who did only good and protected the innocent, who’s shields upheld the law and who's shoes trod many paths by now, from the heart of his home country, to the furthest reaches of the northern plains, spreading his words as if they were holy scripture, but that was never forced and never preached, only the simple, gentle words of 'Be kind to others' and 'free healing for all'.
    He was Corvek, the king of Stoneheart. A man who left home to learn, and instead ended up running a bastion of knowledge, understanding and learning within a dark, ignorant and vicious world.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:53 No.11837916
    File deleted.
    Fuck me sideways.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)21:54 No.11837923
    Hehehe, nice story.
    >> Fisherman 08/26/10(Thu)21:54 No.11837929
    That was much longer than I thought, done now though.
    Sorry about that text wall spam.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/10(Thu)22:21 No.11838298
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    DON'T BE. Tis awe inspiring!
    >> Anonymous 08/27/10(Fri)01:32 No.11840506
    So... are we going to play that JUSTICE game one of these days?
    >> No Man 08/27/10(Fri)01:55 No.11840706
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    And that, ladies and gentlemen, is an example of what gets put in the Book of Exalted Deeds.
    >> Anonymous 08/27/10(Fri)08:00 No.11842829
    bamp for JUSTICE
    >> Anonymous 08/27/10(Fri)08:05 No.11842848

    ...So hes playing Fullmetal Alchemist as the asian prince?
    Fair enough.
    >> Anonymous 08/27/10(Fri)09:15 No.11843193
    There is a right and wrong and all of you know it.

    Moral relativists are just too selfish to be good and too faggy to be evvil.
    >> Kamaiyama !XPjRCnePjc 08/27/10(Fri)10:14 No.11843545
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    This has been one interesting thread, and it's good to know there are some other upright people in this area.

    Personally, I've been trying to reform my local academy. It's not been easy.
    >> Anonymous 08/27/10(Fri)10:22 No.11843600
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    You some kinda white knight?
    >> Anonymous 08/27/10(Fri)10:25 No.11843615
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    >> Kamiyama !XPjRCnePjc 08/27/10(Fri)10:36 No.11843664
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    Somewhat. Though I have to admit that this academy's fighters are kinda badass.

    Figures. Back in Fencing School.... I did something bad.

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