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  • File : 1279992088.jpg-(43 KB, 400x511, 1274633108133.jpg)
    43 KB Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)13:21 No.11327165  
    Lets say there's an organization of Paladins. The Grand March of Knights, if anyone remembers that thread. A large group of nomadic Paladins.

    Now lets imagine there's a country where they are extremely not welcome. A feudalism where the nobles are necromancers of varying degrees. They employ armies of ghouls and spectres, and allow monsters to feed upon their subjects, so long as they pledge loyalty to the noble house.

    One noble has recently inherited his father's title. With it came considerable land, but weak in military forces, with only militia and a few units of intelligent undead. He specialized in the other kind of necromancy, the kind that shoots purple lightning to burn away your very soul.

    He contacts this group of Paladins, and offers them financial and material support as well as giving them a fortress within his borders. He is still a necromancer. He plans on keeping, but not expanding, his undead force. He has no problem with the monsters being wiped out, so long as the Paladins keep a regular presence. He will remain true to his word.

    Is this a good setup for a political game? Is this believable? Could the Paladins ethically consider it? Can /tg/ discuss this without using a sacred cow mechanic from a game to determine character motivation(ie, no alignment bullshit)
    >> Shas'o R'myr !!J5+vjygjQuK 07/24/10(Sat)13:22 No.11327178
    Nope. Because everyone is a slave to the alignment line.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)13:22 No.11327183
    Depends on the paladin.

    I AM THE DEFENDER OF LIGHT CLEAVE AND SMITE EVIL paladins wouldn't consider it.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)13:27 No.11327241
    Paladins kill everyone, the necromancer, the peasants, everyone. They tolerated evil, so they are evil themselves, and they are granted a divine right to kill anyone who trips their Detect Evil
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)13:32 No.11327316
    Honestly unless the paladins were quite powerful, setting up shop in a nation of feudal necromancers who can and will kill you along with the hordes of monsters and undead they command..

    sounds like a deathwish.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)13:37 No.11327376
    Depends on how practical the Paladins are.

    This Grand March of Knights on suptg or something?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)13:40 No.11327418
    It was. LordLicorice deleted the thread because someone said it was a troll, instead of 10 pages about a paladin organization and its political schisms.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)13:42 No.11327442
    could be a good political game I guess. Not the kind of political game I would choose to run, but it could have promise.

    You would want to go in depth detailing the personalities of the major decision makers, as well as what other circumstances exist in order to create a sense of uneasy truce. For a good example, look at kingdom of heaven - the leper king in the movie is reasonable but keeps the needs of christendom in mind. He is undermined by zealots who care not for anything except slaying infidels, even though their attacks are ultimately suicidal. Meanwhile, the muslims undoubtedly have the superior military advantage, but are wary of being drawn into a long siege.

    If the grand march of knights is at the end of its rope and has nowhere to rest/replenish, they might take the necromancer up on account of desperation and the hope that they might be able to do some good.

    If the march is at full strength, they might see it as an opportunity and send in a seemingly amicable group to occupy the place but with the intent of seeing the marches objectives be done and maybe striking a blow against the 'evil' forces of the region. Alternatively - zealots.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)13:46 No.11327502
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    Man, that sounds pretty interesting.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)13:47 No.11327525
    he said he might get undeleted when I asked him about it, then he promptly said "Yeah, whenever I get around to doing anything" and proceeded to derp
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)13:48 No.11327535
    Ah yes.

    The Paladins at the base must try to fulfil their jobs, but perhaps traitors have other plans.

    Who knows? Multiple factions in both groups make it a lot more interesting.
    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)13:49 No.11327560
    Where the rubber meets the road, people (especially successful people) often become quite flexible.

    Historically, the Templars had no qualms about peace accords or even outright alliances with saracen princes, in service of keeping the Holy Land in Christian hands. There are (somewhat rare) occurances of Christian and Muslim fighting alongside each other (against other Muslims of a different sect.) Even a case of the Master of the Temple refusing to aid the King of Jerusalem in invading Egypt, because the Temple had an alliance ongoing with them.

    So, make it something like that. The Grand March might well take the offer and even fight alongside ghouls and so forth, if they think it will further some overarching good (such as the eventual dissolution of all of the necromantic kingdoms.)

    Would make for an interesting campaign, depending on your party's play style and how much into the politics / diplomacy of the thing you get into.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)13:51 No.11327603
    Also the theory that the "evil" the Templars conspired, was in fact a unifying theory to unite Jews, Christians and Muslims in one faith.

    Should they have succeeded...

    Wow man, we'd have men on the Mars in the 16th century.
    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)13:53 No.11327638
    Also, someone deleted the Grand March / Banner Fleet thing?

    Man, it was a great idea, too, and I even helped a little. I wonder if the guy who did a lot of the footwork is still around to recreate it.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:00 No.11327743
    That'd be me, the OP.

    I'm hoping that LL will undelete the thread, so that I can at least save it to 1d4chan.

    More: The Necromancer Prince, we'll call him, commands only a few dozen undead, about 40, lets say, vampires. He keeps them on a short leash, and while they must feed, he disciplines them for any murder. Now obviously this is not nearly large enough of a force to deal with any incursions by other nobles of his land, and he sees no benefit to the mass glorification of death and undeath, but merely sees them as tools to rule, tools that are not currently feasible for him. He certainly has no interest in losing his position of power, and sees no incongruity with relying on the Grand March for manpower.

    Despite being a capable spellcaster, he rarely engages in combat himself, seeing it as a waste of his leadership talents, but has no concern about dealing with attackers with chains of shadow to hold them and knives of pain to cut out their heart without scarring their flesh
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:08 No.11327852
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    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:12 No.11327893
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:12 No.11327896
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    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:12 No.11327897
    Sounds like he's a Machiavellian villain.

    A lawful evil leader might work well with Paladins.

    Both write up a contract of 1403 pages, completely detailing every possible situation.

    Both will keep their word about the contract.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:14 No.11327926
    Are we talking about D&D mechanics? Because if "Paladin" carries too much baggage, are you okay with making them Grey Guard?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:16 No.11327951

    Well, the Necromancer's got the most straightforward deal here; he's just using the Paladins to keep the bigger necromancers away from him, while hopefully keeping them from crushing him themselves.

    If the Knights are desperate, he's got a pretty good leash in his financial aid and provision of room and board. If they're not, he's basically just waiting to get smote if he invites them into his land; even if they turn their attentions elsewhere, there's no doubt they'll come to kill him eventually when they no longer need him.

    The Paladins are going to want to project into the other territories from his whether they're desperate or not, so if they're not high-and-mighty knights (which if there's political intrigue I doubt they are), I see no reason for them to not take the offer.

    As long as they're not Lawful Good Paladins, it works just fine.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:17 No.11327956
    >Grey Guard
    >Punisher with swords and a morality complex
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:17 No.11327965
    a different set of baggage I admit.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:19 No.11327987
    >If they're not, he's basically just waiting to get smote if he invites them into his land; even if they turn their attentions elsewhere, there's no doubt they'll come to kill him eventually when they no longer need him.
    ..the fuck?

    >As long as they're not Lawful Good Paladins, it works just fine.
    Oh, right, alignment troll.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:20 No.11327994
    Perhaps the Paladins take the long view. This is a chance, given to them by their god, to establish a foothold in a corrupt nation, and bring light. They need not consort with the undead. They can come and preach their own virtues. It can be a grand opportunity.

    Don't be a HERKADERK ALIGNMENT slave.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:21 No.11328009
    Everytime I've ever seen a Grey Guard roleplayed, it was basically "I'm Chaotic Evil With The Moral High Ground"
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:25 No.11328043
    Necromancers are not neccisarily evil.

    Admittedly this one seems to be, but Undetectable Alignment is a second level spell one SHOULD use when dealing with paladins.

    The fact that he doesn't have to be evil is an in. His alignment reads as not evil, they have no way of knowing the truth, if he offers them an in to beat down the big evil, they may go for it.

    I'd help him as a paladin. Assuming he didn't rape bitches or starve peasants and such. I'd make sure to read the contract well though.
    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)14:27 No.11328061
    I don't think being lawful good necessarily precludes working with the Necromancer. Again, its about doing the most good, and if they "free" the land of the necromancer (ie they stop getting used as cattle for the vampires) then they can justify it on those grounds along with grounds of most good in the long run (destroying the necromancer kingdoms.)

    I even had this vision of a Bernard of Clairvaux-esque figure who preaches to the vampires about forgiveness of all their sins and a place for their damned souls in the celestial vision so long as they dedicate their un-lives to a good cause.

    In fact that's where I'd have the PCs - working behind this preacher-paladin to sow chaos behind enemy lines with the aid of a few intelligent undead converts.

    Also good job OP, you pump out good ideas regularly.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:28 No.11328075
    >Rules say they don't have to choose the evil mechanic
    >But the rules have a spell for hiding the evil mechanic
    >if he offers me a bonus to beat the final boss with, then I'll do it

    This is why the OP said no alignmentfags
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:31 No.11328119

    I'm just thinking; if I were leading this group of paladins, and some necromancer invited me into his land to protect him from other necromancers, if I didn't need him for something fairly important, the first thing I'd do is accept his offer, and then when I got in his castle I'd SMITE AND CLEAVE everyone and everything there, including him.

    Well, then again; how big is this Grand March? From the name I'm assuming it's fairly large.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:33 No.11328148
    >I'm just thinking, if I'm leading this group of trustworthy moral individuals, and a creepy man invites me into his home and seems trustworthy, the second its profitable to me, I'm going to kill him.
    :3 Its fun listening to /tg/ talk about Paladins
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:34 No.11328166

    Fightin' for good doesn't mean fightin' nice.
    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)14:35 No.11328178

    I am not OP, so this might be just my take on it, so YMMV.

    But how I envisioned the Grand March is a very large organization but with innumerable pulls (some quite urgent) on its limited resources.

    Military commanders have the problem of needing to allocate the minimum necessary resources to get the job done. The leaders of the March have the same problem, only with more pulls on theiir resources. So a lot of good causes get too little or no support. This necromancer kingdom might be low on the list - sort of a "low chance of success / big payoff, lets toss a few commando/adviser Paladins in there and see if it pays off" situation.

    Plus, the idea of Paladins in a guerilla campaign sounds fun to me.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:35 No.11328179
    >Murdering someone for being creepy is fighting for good!
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:36 No.11328193
    >A powerful necromancer with dozen of vampires at his beck and call is simply "creepy"
    >poor misunderstood guy
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:40 No.11328239
    So many butthurt rulelaywers in this thread.

    Maybe we should elaborate on the undead forces of the necromancer prince...
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:42 No.11328271
    You're a fucking retard that knows absolutely jack shit about religion, history, sociology or science. Please never attempt to discuss any of these subjects ever again.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:46 No.11328326
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    Sigh. Stepping in to prevent more faggotry.

    Thats certainly a good idea, Texasfag, and considering the sheer amount of help you gave me with the Banner Fleet, I'm not going to discard it, but I was wanting a more standard military presence involved in it.

    Hmm, perhaps by granting them passage through his domain, it allows them to more easily make their circuit due to geographic reasons. Say, perhaps allowing them to not go through a mountain range.

    As for the Necromancer Prince, I want his sins to be limited to his vampire soldiers, who he considers loyal servants of his former father (Hmm, perhaps have him involved somehow as a spectral undead.), and the general sins of being a ruler.

    A good (Well, maybe not a GOOD man, but a reasonable, rational, tolerant man) man who's inherited a necrotic tyranny, so to speak. Monsters and terrible abominations roam the land, and he sees the Grand March as a way to provide him with both political power, stability, and international credibility.

    Perhaps he would like to see the other Necromancer Kingdoms fall, as any ruler who wishes to expand, but he would not be guilty of anything but being born into a position of dark power. And I'm sorry, while this is not done under the mantle of D&D's "roleplay rules", I still do not see any but the most frothing of zealous Paladins to cut a man down for that.
    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)14:47 No.11328336

    Hey, guy, don't be a jerk.

    Part of whats fun about the Templars is their crash and burn and subsequent disappearance of so many Templars (who probably just fled / joined other religious orders.) Not to mention their utter secrecy and lack of complete records on their deeds, external or (especially) internal.

    If someone wants to use that to jump off into weird conjecture about what they were up to or became (ie the Masons appropriating the Templar myth to help membership in France back in the day,) well, leave them to it. No one is claiming that its serious scholarly work.
    >> Alpharius 07/24/10(Sat)14:48 No.11328344
    You know, the Paladin's Code of Conduct presented in the PHB is merely one of many. The first thing to do is write up an Oath for the Paladins in the Grand March to set what they can and cannot do. Even if alignment doesn't matter one whit, an oath is of paramount importance to Paladins. Without an oath, there is no Paladin.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:49 No.11328364

    See, now that kind of organization I could definitely see taking him up on the offer. If it were some small group they could just find work or something, but for an organization like that, there's always one concern above all others, no matter how grand the mission; the organization's own survival.

    They definitely wouldn't like shacking up with the necro, but it'd be hard to turn down if they could get resources for higher-priority conflicts. It's not even that high a price morally, considering this particular necro-king isn't actively murdering people or raising the dead.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:49 No.11328366
    Here here, reason finally shines through.
    Now who should be their god? Existing pantheon? make up a new one perhaps?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:49 No.11328367
    See, I hate this argument to begin with. in most of my settings I prefer the train of thought that NO magic is inherently evil or good. Magic itself is a Neutral force even when granted by the gods. However a person's intentions(Being the conduit for Magic) can make a magic evil or good. Though No Spell can be inherently good or evil, certain school tend to be practiced by certain people andpower can corrupt. but you don't become EBIL because she cast EBIL Spells.

    Which is where my Lawful Good Necromancer came from...Ah that was fun.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:50 No.11328375
    He means that the guy doesnt understand how science and the interactions of various religions affected each other.
    For example, his saying that if all the religions would merge into one, we would have gotten men on mars in the 16th century.
    To anybody who has a basic knowledge of medieval history, that assertion is completely retarded.
    If you would like, I can give you a couple reasons why
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:51 No.11328377
    What about that, while the Prince is a devout Machiavellian lawful/neutral evil "My will is best" dictator, he has great respect for "good" rulers that rule by their just rule.

    He sees how his fellow necromancer rulers are spiralling down into an abyss of bloodshed, cruelty and madness, while their power in the changing world is waning.

    He hopes to unite his own political views with the prosperity of more "good" societies.

    He wants to herald a new age, and he wants his nation at the top, no matter the cost, and the allies he needs.
    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)14:51 No.11328382

    Hey bro, its your idea. You roll with it how you want it. I'm just trying to help. And its not like if I or anyone else used it they'd be forced to stick to what you said, right?

    Re: The March, either its smaller than I thought or you'll have to come up with a justification as to why it doesn't just roll on through the Vampire Kingdom. Any thoughts on that? Perhaps they are rushing off to an emergency down south and cannot spare the time, but can leave the "minimum necessary force" to get the job done (hopefully?)
    >> Alpharius 07/24/10(Sat)14:52 No.11328397

    So you're turning him into a necromantic Vetinari. I can't say that I disapprove.
    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)14:54 No.11328419

    I know. Its a silly idea. But just because someone went spouting silly ideas on the interweb doesn't mean you have to get all angry about it.

    Lets have fun talking about Paladins, not telling random mook #783477 how dumb he is for having a flight of fancy.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:56 No.11328433
    I wasn't angry, I managed to make my eyes all glossy and blank for a minute and then I moved on. The point is that poor guy might've overreacted, but not by much.
    Some people just have to be told that they are wrong.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:57 No.11328442
    I do not like the overdeveloped concept of the Vampire in western mythology, be it Bram Stoker Stephanie Meyers. Peridito Street Station and the other books of Bas Lag, as well (sadly too few) JRPGs where Vampires have several abilities core themed to the western vampire, but not the retarded shopping list of abilities and weaknesses. Weak to the sun, able to fly, strong, fast, blood drain, etc. The CORE stuff. These "Demi-Vampires" would still reproduce and gain sustenance like normal vampires, but are not power figures in their own right. As for their internal structure, perhaps familial? There are a few families, that serve as the Prince's Vassals, and have served the throne for several decades. They have horrific hereditary health, though, and when one of their number becomes sick, or power hungry, or just useless, they are given over to the Prince's "Elite Guard", for "conscription".

    These families are horrified by the offer to the Grand March, and at least one of them has openly refused to sacrifice any more members if they stay.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:57 No.11328443
    It creates another dilemma for the Paladins.

    This Prince will do a lot of good, yes. He might even become powerful enough to defeat the other Necromancer lords.

    But if he becomes too powerful, he could conquer the entire known world, and with all good intentions, he remains a stern dictator who believes that the ends justify the means.

    On the other hand, even through he is 'evil', he could still cause more good than any good nation could, and more good than the Paladins himself.

    (The Dr. Doom problem: If Dr. Doom ruled Earth, Earth would prosper with no more crime, war and pollution. However, the world would be ruled by Dr. Doom, an evil dictator.)
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:57 No.11328447
    necromancer is not inherantly evil my setting

    The body is just a vehicle for the soul, thus necromancy is akin to installing servos and actuators in a discarded vehicle so that some use can come out of it.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:58 No.11328449
    The idea isn't that necromancy as a school is evil (healing spells were necromancy for a while), it's that a lot of the spells in necromancy such as "create evil undead minions" or "burn away your very soul" are.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)14:59 No.11328470
    That's not create undead, it's animate object.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:00 No.11328476
    exactly, they are the same thing
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:00 No.11328480
    sounds more like a Szass Tam in the making to me. How long till he becomes a Lich?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:01 No.11328494
    except for the negative energy part?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:01 No.11328501
    But you can already cast animate object on a corpse or a skeleton, so then why does create undead (which makes ghouls etc) even exist then?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:02 No.11328506
    >implying that everything is D&D
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:04 No.11328532
    I'd be happy to discuss a different fucking mechanic if you supply one
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:04 No.11328534
    >implying you have to explain DM fiat
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:05 No.11328545
    Well, how does animating the dead normally work in this mysterious unnamed game of yours?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:05 No.11328548
    Haha! Now you're getting it! Perhaps not SO mad with power, but he is necromancer prince by upbringing and inheritence, not by choice. The question is one of nature or nurture!

    Ah, misunderstanding. Yes, the March is a large army, but a large army that cannot stop for long periods, and yes, it still is drawn in a hundred directions at once. What I meant more is that the guerrilla angle is not quite what I was going for. With the March having an outpost there, they must defend it against the "natural" monsters, and "accidents" from neighboring Necromancer Kingdoms. The benefits provided by the Prince are too logistically difficult to defend with a handful of men, is what I'm getting at.

    And I've not even started on the culture shocks of dealing with a nation of citizens who see undead predations as part of the governmental system dealing with not only a massive change in power, but an influx of foreign military "for their own good". (The quotes there are not to insinuate the March is bad, but to show the xenophobic concept of all peoples when they do not have the perspective to understand)
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:06 No.11328558
    It's pretty poor DMing if you can't.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:06 No.11328562

    An extra bit of pressure for the necromancer, although it seems like one that'd be mirrored on the paladin side of things.
    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)15:10 No.11328607

    That sounds interesting, too. The only other issue I can really think up is the problem of having PCs work in the shadow of a large or semi-large army, which always presents problems in my experience.

    What is your solution? Mine have historically been to make the PCs commandos, guerillas or the like, as action away from the main body is where heroes can really shine, as opposed to being cogs in the machine.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:12 No.11328624
    Clarify that one for me?

    I'm tempted to play it up to 11. The Necromancer Kingdoms are not named that for their rulership alone, the very land has been tainted by the excess of dark magic. Plants grow sickly and weak, with several species of tree producing black leaves and needles. The sun never fully shining even when it hangs in an empty sky, and night being a choking sea of darkness, with the wind bringing maddening whispers to your ears. The Paladins would feel the land itself was hostile.

    Too much?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:13 No.11328632
    A small group?

    Maybe mix it up for 50% with those Vampire commandos of the Prince. Now THAT could be interesting.

    I can imagine that by the end of the game, you'd have paladins and vampires working in conjunction, felling enemies many times their strength by combining holy and unholy spells simultaniously on their foes.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:15 No.11328657
    I'm wondering what's keeping all these vampires trustworthy and loyal. exploding sunlight collars perhaps?
    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)15:16 No.11328664

    I meant more about the PCs getting away from, say, the Garrison on some plausible duty that takes them adventuring instead of patrolling, guarding or skirmishing in an orderly battle line, as befits members of a military organization.

    I like the idea, though. Maybe let half the PCs be Paladins and the other half Vampires that can level? Would take some work to do right and balance it properly but it could be cool.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:16 No.11328668
    Well the majority of the army would (ironically for the nomadic March) be stationary. Guards for the outpost, caravans for the transportation of goods, regular patrols along careful routes. It would be no more different than any kingdom with a military, only the military is wearing the wrong colors and is from another ethnicity. They can certainly be "Independants", special agents, envoys, etc, not wrapped up in the drudgery of the gruntwork, but sent out on a specific task. Attempt diplomatic relations with other Necromancer Kingdoms. Particularly nasty monsters that've grown fat and lazy on the citizenry. All while being given a difficult task of spying on the Prince, trying to find the truth to his goals, while not causing an incident on their own.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:16 No.11328673
    If I was a vampire, and my elder had always served a royal house of necromancers, I'd do what he says, before I get used as some component of some necromantic reseach.
    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)15:19 No.11328698

    What keeps any man trustworthy and loyal?

    Mutually beneficial relationship. Just because you lose your soul doesn't mean you lose your ability to do political calculus. Having the sanction and protection of a city-state and basically unlimited feeding rights beats hiding in a sewer or cave waiting for the next adventurer to come along and stick a stake in your heart any day.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:20 No.11328714
    Hmmm. Good point, most vampires have some form of domination built into their shopping list of random abilites, but if we're taking that out...

    Well, there's always the thing that goes on in WoD. "Sure, a vamp can say "fuck off" to everyone in the world, but he better not say it to the guy standing next to the curtains." Without the Prince's behest, they'd have trouble keeping out of the sun in the day, or perhaps he supplies them with some form of less-lame Sunblock.

    Perhaps that could be subgoal of the whole thing, to court the loyalty of the Elite Guard as well as the Prince, prevent internal tensions from getting out of control, from defecting to another Kingdom, or just plain going wild.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:21 No.11328727
    I'm already imagining some Paladins and Vampires standing over the remains of an evil undead warbeast.

    "We made it, Kel-Tal. We fucking held the line and survived."
    "Indeed Paul. I said I would get us through this. I am a vampire of the House of the Burning Snake. I keep my word."

    Brofist under a pale moon.

    Also, consider the paladins as "barbaric" militaristic crusaders, with little interest in culture and such, except for feasting and honourable combat.

    The vampires on the other hand are all nobles, steeped in ancient culture and history. But they are both connected, through honourable combat.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:24 No.11328762
    yeah, but wouldn't you want a bit more assurance than hoping the soulless monstrosities use better judgement instead of deciding they may be able to do a better job?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:25 No.11328776

    Well, if the idea of the union is making the necromancer's vampires turn rebellious, it's not going to be any different for the March, right? Surely someone in there is going to think "Hold up, we can't ally ourselves with necromancers!" and try to prevent or even sabotage the arrangement.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:25 No.11328788
    Granted, the idea of the Paladins-as-barbarians rankles me a bit, but they ARE nomadic... but I definitely like the idea of martial prowess. The Vampires would be officially known as the Royal Elite Guard or some claptrap like that, and while they come from families steeped in history and royal servitude, they are fundamentally there to fuck someone's night ALL to hell, so most of them would respect powerful warriors, which in all the Necromancer kingdoms, there would be very few beings that were (a)powerful warriors, (b)intelligent, (c)not the heads of state.

    I can see it now, a white-as-snow vampire clad in black leather, blood dripping from his claws, standing next to a black Paladin clad in white-yet-bloodstained robes, blood dripping from his sword. Both their arms hang from their shoulders with exhaustion, looking at each other, trying not to laugh at the absurdity.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:27 No.11328808
    It's threads like this that keep me coming back to /tg/.
    The size of the contingent force left by the March could be no larger than the PCs themselves, perhaps with several servants and NPC Paladins to assist in larger movements that require their work.
    What about the other families? Perhaps one of them finds the presence of the Paladins TOO much to deal with and quietly changes loyalties to a neighboring Prince, feeding them intelligence in preparation for war, assassination or rampant sabotage.
    If not the families themselves, what of the vampire servants? Maybe one of them becomes the chosen of a dark god.
    Does the Prince have siblings? Maybe a coup is in order.
    I see a game that could easily become combat heavy, fighting off infiltrators and "rogue" undead sent over by neighborings vassals, or high-roleplay as the characters themselves assess and engage the leader in philosophical and political discussion to determine his true goals, and perhaps bring him more in line with the nations whose power he craves.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:28 No.11328818
    I like that. What can go wrong, and how the protagonists deal with it is more entertaining than a thought experiment of how everything can work out happy fine and dandy.
    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)15:28 No.11328821

    Addition that may or may not be useful to other campaigns besides this one:

    The height of political "realism" ends up being counterproductive, because the range that realism deals with is the here-and-now, that is, what will be most beneficial to me this split-second?

    It leaves no room for something that benefits you today (appeasing a dictator, for example) but harms you tomorrow. Tomorrow is something we'll deal with tomorrow, say "realists" / "pragmatists."

    Not very realistic or pragmatic, as you can see.

    Anywho, people who proport to have codes, philosophies, etc., are simply applying a certain worldview to a more expansive view of their benefits. The liberal fighters of the 18th century saw their self-interest in terms of not just what benefitted them now (the war was far more costly than taxes) but what would allow them the most liberty in the long run - so they took an action that a realist would call self-hurting for a perceived longer-term benefit.

    Muhammad McJihad is much the same way in practice, though he has a radically different theory. He's after eternal paradise in the hereafter, and for that you can understand why he thinks whatever deeds he does are worth the price.

    Now back to fantasy role playing. You're a vampire with eternity to live, if you can manage to not die. The afterlife for vampires is supposed to suck pretty hard. You also have a set of natural circumstances (needing to feed off of mortals, etc) that channel you to being something of a parasite. So I have always imagined vampires as naturally inclining towards ultraconservatism, never-fight-unless-I'm-cornered type of people.

    YMMV, as always, but those are my thoughts on vampires and the system I kind of use to figure out how I think x person or group would act in general.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:30 No.11328862
    Well, it really comes down to whether these paladins, or their deity if they have one, feel necromancy itself is evil, and the morals of their possible host.
    As long as they make it clear to this noble that he is no more exempt from them than his fellows, it should be kosher. Whether or not the noble can stomach that catch to continue the deal is more a test of that man.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:31 No.11328865
    Naturally. You should have seen the first thread, revolving around "Gods: Are They Worth It?", and all the political drama between ANOTHER group of Paladins. Where NO ONE WAS WRONG. AND NONE OF THEM FELL.

    Hmmm. Perhaps a subgroup of the March, say a squad of Cavalry. Purelight Knives, lets call them. They find the idea of undead, intelligent or otherwise, to be intolerable, and to be killed on sight. To be ordered otherwise causes them to rankle openly, and while they channel this frustration by functioning as hunter-seekers for the abominations that were encouraged to settle the land, any Elite Guard members they meet in the wilderness... well.. its a vampire after all. You know what they say they can do with just a gaze. Better safe than sorry, and at least this way, we can send him to the other side the right way.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:34 No.11328908
    hmmmm, perhaps rumblings in the vampire community? The big boss is now having court with Paladins. How long till he concedes that the vampires are no longer necessary? The boss is still a breather after all, our kind will always be expendable to their kind.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:35 No.11328916
    Consider the possibilities of radical groups of the Grand March travelling to the Dark Lands to throw the mission of the hired Paladins in disarray.

    This way, the game suddenly expands.

    The PC's
    The Grand March
    Radical Grand March
    The Prince
    The Vampire Nobles
    Radical Vampire Nobles
    Necromancers from other countries

    Shit just got real yo.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:38 No.11328952
    hell, we're not even counting the human citizens in that. a damn fine mess that I would love to play
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:43 No.11329004
    and people like you and Texasfag are the reason I posted again.

    The size of the contingency force needs to be enough for it to be considered "military presence." Something to at least dissuade open aggression by another Necromancer Prince. The PCs should be operating separate from them for drudgery, but any significant problems like a marauding necrogiant or political incident should be their concern.

    I honestly just pulled the Vassal Families out of my ass just a few minutes ago, so don't think I just haven't gotten there yet. I certainly love the idea of one of them being traitors, but not the one that has threatened to revoke "recruits". Their sabotage should be low-key, nothing to upset the power of the Kingdom, but of the March and the Prince.

    I also really like the idea of the "chosen of a dark god", at least in concept. Even better if its a demi-vampire that has been LISTENING to the March missionaries. This catapults him into a position of power in the Guard, but removes him from being able to listen to the missionaries. Given a higher level of military authority, he is kept separate from the March (though a few Purelight Knives might try and take him down anyway). Perhaps he tries to hold true to what little he learned, even as the darkness flows through him, warping his body and environment with the trappings of evil.

    I'm going to say no to the Siblings angle, just because he's already got dozens of coups to deal with from other angles, and to be fair, for him to come to power enough to extend his offer to the March, he would have to deal with any threats to the crown such as siblings.

    You've given me the idea to tie this all together into a singular game idea. "Paladin Quest. You are imbued with holy powers that flow from the divine fountain of the metaphysical concept of Justice itself. Evil stalks the land. Should be simple, right?"
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:55 No.11329121
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    Oh this works great. Elite Guard, anyone?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:58 No.11329154
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)15:59 No.11329158

    to paraphrase gibson; technology is value neutral. Only when put to a purpose by people does it become good or evil.

    Your argument for magic makes sense, but in a supernatural paradigm I think it's naive to assume that your view of things can always be so. Some magic stems from evil sources and will conspire to taint whatever purpose it is put to - eg, bargaining with demons or other malicious powers/origins, spells or rituals which require innocent sacrifice, etc.
    >> God-Emperor of Mankind 07/24/10(Sat)16:05 No.11329225
    Really this fals as moraly neutral, whcih is where Paladins want things

    YES he as an undead horde, but he manages them in a way that doesn't inflict death and destruction, YES he's done evil, and while some Paladins are subject to Ex Post Facto other aren't

    Basically as long as he doesn't do evil shit while in contract with the Paladins, they won't fuck with him and WILL fight to the death for him as long as its not land grabs or power struggles.

    Paladins will protect the people first, and rulers second.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)16:08 No.11329256
    Call me lame, but for visuals I am reminded of Guild Wars. Specifically the factions areas of House Kurzick. They're a gothic noble house of proud warriors and such that live in strongholds in a huge forest that has been petrified to stone. Google image for ideas.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)16:22 No.11329415
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    I wonder what it would be like to have a Kantian Paladin as a NPC or PC, and what they would think about this situation and adventuring in general.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)16:23 No.11329422
    The Elite Guard originally dealt with their Hunger with a form of voluntary tribute, levying the land with a number of individuals to serve temporarily as a source of sustenance. This system has evolved as the Guard has dwindled, until they now serve as a draconian police force in the Prince's Kingom.

    They may be summoned quickly by mayors and other local rulers, but theirs is not the pursuit of justice. When a crime is committed, the case of innocence or guilt must be determined before calling for the Guard. When the Guard is called in official capacity, they are told the name or names of individual(s), and a sentence in the form of a period of time, of no less than one week. They then move to capture these individuals, and take them to the Cattle Pen, a tower built with no doors in the capital city, that serves as a prison that only the flying demivamps can access.

    Minor crimes committed are usually dealt with by the local community, as the Guard treat all prisoners the same, and often are treated as a form of "SWAT team" for dealing with individuals that a town sheriff cannot deal with.

    Inside the Cattle Pen, the individuals are chained into cells, and either fed off of directly, or drained of their blood to serve as "emergency rations." They go to long efforts to not kill their prisoners, due to the fact that a dead cow produces no milk, but there is a trend among those who strongly resist to have unfortunate accidents with excessive blood drain.

    The bite scars of the Guard are seen as a "Convict's Tattoo" among the people of the Prince's Kingdom, and that you are untrustworthy in a realm of monsters and vampires.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)16:39 No.11329593
    totally not familiar with either of those things/people.

    Going back to the idea of the Chosen Vamp, there is whats known as the Avatar Of Darkness that afflicts one demivamp(just to keep people reminded these aren't D&D/Stoker vamps) at a time in the world. Bestowing upon the demivamp greatly increased strength, the ability to manifest shadow constructs, and dramatically reducing his Hunger, being the Avatar of Darkness confers considerable political power in the Black Kingdoms(I decided they should be called that instead of the Necromancer Kingdoms). Avatars gain a "trickledown" of experience and skill from previous Avatars(OH FUCK I NEED A NEW NAME NOW GODDAMMIT), and so are almost always promoted to a position of power within their Kingdom's vampire power structure, usually coming to direct conflict with the current Vampire Elder.

    Lazarus Morelock is a young vampire, only a few months old (from the time of his... recruitment), having been offered up to the Guard due to being struck down with his family's legendary health concerns. Still reveling in the ironic ability to enjoy life without his crippling medical problems when the Grand March came in, he listened when the missionaries told him of lands with bright vibrant life and peace, and their ideals of justice and law. Even working with several March parties to deal with local monster problems, Lazarus finds himself starting to seriously think about his place in the Elite Guard when he is struck one night by the painful transformation into an Avatar (The previous one being killed in a battle between two other Black Kingdoms). Now catapulted into a position of power in the Guard, he cannot work the March except in diplomatic matters, and the current Vampire Elder, beholden to the ways of the Necromancer Prince's fathers and grandfathers, sees Lazarus as a blatant threat to his rule.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)16:42 No.11329619

    How Lazarus deals with his dark temptations, with the power struggle in the Guard, and the path of his unlife, will vary on how the PCs act.

    >> Texasfag 07/24/10(Sat)17:07 No.11329955
    You have made me want to start role playing again, OP. Thanks.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)17:18 No.11330126
    There are 5 Vassal Families, and thus 5 clans of Vampires in the Prince's Kingdom. The Morelocks, the Sangreys, the Bloodworths, the Vondraks, and the Le Vrai.

    The Morelocks are the newest Vassal Family, given their status only 60 years ago, to help stave off the former Necromancer Prince's military losses. As humans, they are as sickly as any of the Vassals, and disrespected by the others, as any aristocrat would disrespect a "nouveaux riche". As a family, they are the ones most tolerant of the Grand March in their country, and have tied their political futures with the success of this endeavor. If the March becomes a long term situation, then the Morelocks have much to gain. If not, they may have their title stripped from them. As Vampires, the Morelocks are almost idealistic, able to cast off their illnesses and do things never before possible, without the harsh attitude of older vampires to press upon them. They are most likely to brave the pain of the dim sun in order to accomplish a goal, just because they can.

    The Sangreys on the other hand, are the oldest of the Vassal Familes, and the healthiest, forming an ironic mirror to the Morelocks. As humans, they serve the longest before being "recruited" into the Guard, serving as his human military, who end up serving the garrison of his palace and the capital city. As Vampires, they prefer quiet, calculated actions with as little effort as possible, delegating and manipulating. The current Elder of the Elite Guard is a Sangrey, and while he does not approve of the invitation to the Grand March, he respects the cunning and manipulation involved. Your average Sangrey is incredibly arrogant, seeing humans as livestock, to be nourished, guarded, and harvested.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)17:34 No.11330377
    hey, I've got to get this out somehow. My group is a looney, a leopard(No matter what character he plays, he never changes his spots. Everything is a Dwarf Fortress Urist.) and a drama queen.

    The Bloodworths are the second oldest Vassal family, inducted by the Sangreys, having told the Prince's great great grandfather "Their Blood Is Worthy." This is a fact that the older family never hesitates to remind them of. As humans they serve as judges, sages, and advisors, meting out what passes for justice and keeping order. Sickliest of the Families second only to the Vondrak, they serve in largely nonphysical roles,and are actually have the lowest number of Vampire members due to the fact that so many of them are lost to sudden attacks of their own illness, with no time to convert them. As vampires, they see it as their reward for their lifetime of servitude, and are the most relaxed and easygoing with their unlife, but when spurred to action they are usually faster than the other Families, thanks to a slight variant in their Curse.

    The Vondraks were inducted into the political structure alongside the Le Vrai, two fueding houses of merchants that found themselves at the fury of an annoyed necromancer king, who claimed that if they had no problem fighting in the streets, then they would do so for their king. As humans, the Vondrak are the absolute sickest, having hereditary wasting diseases and delirium inflicted as puniFUCKYOU THEFIELDISFUCKINGSHORT
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)17:41 No.11330464
    shment from the ancient king. Most Vondrak take wives as soon as soon as they become adults, and give themselves over to vampirism at 20 if they have propogated another child to continue the line. As vampires, this method promises that the Vondrak are the most common member of the Guard, who revel in the beauty and physical prowess granted by undeath, treating the Hunger as merely another famine inflicted upon them. Quick to anger and violence, the ancient king's curse taught them no lesson, and their tolerance for pain and their own penchance for supernatural strength and stamina make them the Elite Guard's shock troops, a role they relish.

    The Le Vrai were inducted alongside the Vondraks, a merchant family that openly warred with the Vondraks. Inducted as a cruel lesson by a former King, the Le Vrai considered it a change in the playing field, but no change to themselves. As humans, the Le Vrai family was spared diseases as bad as the Vondrak, and used their status as a Vassal Family to leverage themselves into the head of the capital city's merchant guilds. Economically well off, they make and spend several fortunes fighting off the the plagues of their curse, often living the longest before becoming demivampires. As vampires, they keep their financial acumen and eye for opportunity, and have actually entered into a quiet deal with a neighboring Kingdom, trading information for money, magical artifacts, and even a few slaves, jockeying for more power when they believe the Grand March is forced out of the country. As Vampires, they often find themselves gifted with an aptitude for magic, and most of the Guard mages are Le Vrais.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)17:41 No.11330475
    I think I overdetailed the Families now. But oh well.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)17:48 No.11330574
    Hmmm. Hard to find pictures of vampires that aren't hilariously bad.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)18:04 No.11330909
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    >> ibot 07/24/10(Sat)18:11 No.11331037
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)18:22 No.11331219
    I for one would approve of archiving this.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)18:31 No.11331404
    Aww shucks. Alright, I give up on searching for more badass vampire pictures (I got distracted by more Dr McNinja anyway).

    Somebody ask a question, so I can work on it.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)18:34 No.11331452


    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)18:36 No.11331483
    tapping into the spirit of MR.RAGE a little bit there.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)18:41 No.11331588
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    mm. yes.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)18:43 No.11331609
    Am I wrong?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)18:51 No.11331736
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    This pic ALMOST works. Pfft.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)18:55 No.11331807
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    Just because I like this one
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)18:57 No.11331855
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    C'mon, I know there are people interested in this thread. I need something to focus on to develop it more. Ask a question or something.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)19:05 No.11331969
    Archiving thread 11327165
    Thread found.
    Thread is not currently archived; creating entry.
    Sanity checking passed. Continuing with archival.
    Downloading images... 12 found, 12 new. Done.
    Downloading thumbnails... 12 found, 12 new. Done.
    Updating links... 0 full images found. 0 thumbnail links found. 0 deleted image links found. Done.
    Creating file... Done.
    Thread 11327165 is now archived. View Here You will be redirected to the archive page in 20 seconds.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)19:13 No.11332082
    God, shut up, this thread is tl;dr
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)19:35 No.11332499
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    I imagine that the vampires would look kinda like this.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)19:40 No.11332573
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    Oh boy, oh boy
    >> ibot 07/24/10(Sat)19:42 No.11332603
    Next character I make is going to be a paladin in a very dark land. He offers equal rights to undead outside of evil dictatorships.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)19:44 No.11332625
    Certainly can't say no. I can't find a good large pictures (since all the regular art just looks like its DBZ), but this guy also appeals to me

    I cannot say thats a bad idea, but wow. lol. Wow.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)19:44 No.11332639
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    Fuck you Ralph, your daughter reminds me of that girl in high school I was too afraid to talk to.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)19:51 No.11332755
    You must post ITT if you shought she had only one breast before realizing she was drawn sideways...
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)20:24 No.11333289
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)20:42 No.11333544
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    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)20:46 No.11333622
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    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)21:51 No.11334663
    bump for nite /tg/?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)21:52 No.11334688
    sorry id love to but im too drunk to write long stories im going to get some sleep
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)22:06 No.11334878
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)22:10 No.11334947
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    >flat out grade A bullshit fagtarded shit that makes Twilight look good
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)22:17 No.11335066
    >hope that night time /tg/ will show interest in OP's thread
    >giantess porn thread
    >/co/ shit thread
    >40k bullshit thread
    >40k bullshit thread 2.0
    >this guy >>11334947
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)22:40 No.11335390
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    Willingly associating with evil?

    That's a fall from grace.

    Not smiting undead on sight, regardless of local laws?

    That's a fall from grace.

    Entering into an alliance to defend an evil necromancer from his enemies?

    You'd better believe that's a fall from grace.

    In all seriousness though - I'd consider most paladins more likely to enter into alliances with more LN / LG aligned nations and trying to convince them to go to war with the necromancer kingdoms. They are holy warriors, after all, not holy politicans.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)22:42 No.11335429
    Giantess porn thread?
    >> ibot 07/24/10(Sat)22:44 No.11335453
    We have a troll. send in counter troll squad and FOR GODSSAKES MAN, DO NOT FEED!
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)22:52 No.11335550
    Please define evil without using the alignment system. Oh wait.

    The entire point of the concept is to make this a hard choice for both the Prince and the Paladins. Which are the Paladins more likely to do? Kill something that they don't like, or help someone who has asked for their help, and offers the chance to do even more good in the world? Its not like the Prince is going to eat their babies the second they turn their backs. Its too complicated for a blanket statement on any such thing.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)22:59 No.11335661
    It's surprisingly uncomplicated.

    Undead are absolute abominations and mockeries of life. If The Prince willingly utilizes these creatures for protection, every living paladin should be looking to kill him on sight.

    I also realize in this instance he's by far the 'lesser' of several evils - but paladins are paladins because they don't equivocate or allow themselves to get trapped in moral grey zones.

    There is no 'lesser' of two evils with paladins - there is just evil. And their job is to eliminate evil wherever it is found.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:01 No.11335685
    Remember that the Paladin's will is unimportant, OP, the Paladin's god determines his views on any event.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:03 No.11335697
    I'm so happy this thread is still here. Had to leave for work right when OP started. Thank you, /tg/. ;_;
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:12 No.11335827
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    dont you die on me
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:18 No.11335902
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    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:19 No.11335909
    If this Prince were really desperate for the military aid, he would have to make some fairly massive concession to convince these paladins to come I imagine. The most important of which would be a very vocal desire to 'atone'.

    Perhaps he offers them a mandate to hunt the undead in his kingdom, and vows bever to utilize them in his milita.

    He's also have to involve the paladins within his government, and perhaps put them on a similar level with him in terms of political sway / power.

    Unjust laws would have to be made just. Citizens, peasents and subjects would have to be treated far better.

    Allowing them all this, and the chance to use his lands as a springboard for an invasion of the more powerful Lord's holdings around him would be good. The paladins could crusade against his enemies then, taking land which he can eventually subsume into his own full fledged Kingdom.

    So long as he keeps an ace up his sleeve to betray and eliminate the paladins when the other necromancer Lords are dead and the holy warriors no longer serve a purpose, it's a fairly cunning and plottastic series of events I think.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:20 No.11335923
    >Paladins are blind idiots who DERPly charge the nearest thing wearing black
    Its funny how people just cannot understand the idea of a fantasy world without 3.5 alignment being transplanted in for their entire concept of moral or ethical decisions.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:23 No.11335971
    >don't you die on me
    >picture of Sturm Brightblade, dead in the second book
    :3 Nyoro~n
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:35 No.11336139
    ...I don't even know where to begin on this. There's no reason to betray the Paladins. There's no reason for either side to want to include the Paladins in the government itself, and the Grand March is already getting considerable compensation in the form of materiel and land.

    I wish LL would restore the other thread already
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:43 No.11336236
    I'm wondering about how the Black Kingdoms are set up. It's a feudal society, so is there is there a King of all these individual kingdoms, are they all kingdoms in the first place or are there baronies and such, would that actually make it the Black Kingdom and the Prince the Baron of Paperechnaya, how would the King feel about a Baron bringing in PALADINS, why am I suddenly seeing the Black Kingdoms as the 15th century Holy Roman Empire?
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:43 No.11336238
    Really? This is just sounding more and more like anti-alignment elitism.

    Let's put alignments aside for a second then. Paladins are vaunted, holy warriors. The few, chosen fighters of the greatest Gods of holy order. They are meant to be paragonical beacons of the best qualities mortal men and women can aspire to. Compassion, kindness, zeal and unwavering opposition of evil are just some of these qualities.

    Undead are basically tortured souls left to roam the lands in absolute agony. Irredeemably evil, whether sentient or not, such that paladins are not even duty bound to accept a plea of surrender from these creatures. It is, at all times, their job to seek out and destroy them. For undead, along with demons and devils, represent the most profane creatures to walk the world. They are the absolute antithesis of a paladin. So they butcher them.

    That's their job. They're given abilities like 'Smite Evil' for a reason. Their god wants them to go out there and crusade against these kinds of evils.

    Now look at this Prince. He has allowed undead to live in his lands, feeding off his people. He has reaped benefits from their continued existence, and presumably would continue to do so.

    What paladin in their right mind would strike deals with a man like that? What paladin would consider political avenues? They're warriors, not diplomats. Their job doesn't change simply because they have potentially something to gain from granting him leniency for his crimes.

    They demand his surrender to face lawful trial for his crimes in a more righteous nation. If he refuses, they kill him. Simple as that.

    I know people think paladins like this are 'cookie cutter' or 'one dimensional' - but to me they are what a paladin should be. Nothing less than unwavering, uncompromising, unequivocating warriors of evil ass kicking.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:46 No.11336283
    Changed my mind, it's Kreuzung. Easier to say. The 'good' Baron of Kreuzung.
    >> Anonymous 07/24/10(Sat)23:56 No.11336447
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    What about a Paladin of Freedom?
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)00:07 No.11336599
    I had a great big post going point by point on where I disagree with you, but it would not serve the purposes of this thread. Put bluntly your Paladins seem steeped too much in the Mechanics of D&D, and far too willing to avoid grey areas by randomly inserting their sword into a situation and calling one half black, one half white.

    Tried emailing him directly and asking? The explanation about why your paladins were different is kind of important.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)00:17 No.11336743
    Being on the list means it still has a chance if you appeal for it.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)00:19 No.11336781
    I've never even played a pen and paper rpg, and i've read this thread top to bottom.
    Great stuff OP and contributors.

    Some questions:
    is there any sort of over-arching control over these black kingdoms? A necromancer pope or king?
    What would the nearby areas outside the black kingdoms be like?
    I would think they need to be relatively isolated, or neighboring "normal" kingdoms would have wiped out their scourge long ago (or the necromancers would have taken them out instead). If they are isolated in their own little corner of the world, how would the Grey March realistically enter the picture?
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)00:20 No.11336798
    What a cool idea

    The first image of my head when you say nomadic paladins is a group of very hunnic/mongol horse soldiers who ride around spreading justice by killing every single evil mother fucker they see, fuck the consequences. And then ride off to the sunset.

    With that image in my head, I really don't see why such a group would even CARE about the political machination of a young vampire princeling. They would probably not kill him... straight away at least but would ride through other necromancer land burning every evil effigy in sight and slaughtering its undead hordes.

    If they face fierce resistance they return to the princeling land to feast and plan for further raids.

    Here we see the vampire's initial plan backfire as now he is seen harbouring known enemies (or not, up to your discretion). The vampire must now decide what to do, either aid his insane barbarian paladins or turn them in to curry political favour (at the risk of a punishment).
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)00:22 No.11336835
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    That is a good question actually, I originally said that the whole mess was one feudalism where the Necromancer Prince was merely a single noble, but thats certainly got away from me now. In a normal feudalism the invitation to the March would not be tolerated, as you said. Sadly I do not know jack about the Romans, be they Holy or not, though I'm sure if Texasfag comes back, he could say something.

    Perhaps it would be better to see the Black Kingdoms referred to as a cluster of territories owned by necromancer warlords, similar to the troubled parts of Africa, to be blunt, but with the trappings of feudalism and western european fantasy, castles and whatnot. Most others utilize far more undead, such as ghouls, ghosts, and worse. Far worse, and more typical of what you think of when you hear "Necromancer despotism"

    I'm sorry, but not only do I have very specific views on Paladins, but in this thread we only use that picture for FUCK YOU, I'M AN ANTEATER.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)00:36 No.11337044
    Good to hear! Interest is the lifeblood of such things.

    Ahh.. GRAND March. Sorry, I really don't like the whole Grey Guard thing. Anyway, those are good questions. Hmmm. Naturally secluded, due to say, a ring of mountains, that butts up against an inland sea. The Darkspine Mountains create a secluded region with its own sub-ecology. With only a few safe passes through the Darkspines, the Grand March could cut weeks off their circuit if they could pass through just one side.

    And despite having just said they would be warlords, the idea of a Necropope is very enticing...

    First off, the Necromancer Prince is not a vampire himself. Just his military power base is. Second, rather than being mongol horde, the Grand March is the idea of a wandering paladin, who inspires two of the people he meets to follow him, to walk the land and know its people by face-to-face. And those two people inspire two people, and those two people inspire two people, until the Grand March of Knights was born, a nomadic "mob" of Paladins, pilgrims, families, and opportunistic caravan masters, mostly foot-based with a few elite cavalry units. Very much in tune with tradition and the people.

    If that doesn't float your boat though, we have the White Banner Fleet (Goddammit that was an unintentional pun), a sea-faring organization of Paladins who are quietly wondering if the Gods are really all they're cracked up to be.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)00:40 No.11337089
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    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)00:52 No.11337249
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    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)00:58 No.11337342
    It's unlikely, but I can see this working.

    "Alright Lord Graymorality, you want us to help you defeat the greater evils out there, that being the other undead-loving lords of the land. I will join with you now to defeat the greater evils, as it is in the interest in good to do so. However, if you wish for me to continuing associating with you, in return I want you to use your political clout to promote goodness amongst your people. You win your war, we gain more converts to good, and we both benefit from the lack of the other lords."

    This completely fits under the concept of attempting to redeem evil, which is one of the exceptions to the 'traveling/working with evil' clause oft used.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:00 No.11337360
    I agree with this post, a paladin doesn't take the lesser of two evils, and I'm not even talking about alignment systems. If presented with a choice that will lead him to do a small evil act for the much greater good a paladin shouldn't take it. I do agree there is a absurdity to it, and in games that I run most paladins fall from grace, as I usually run games with gray morality.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:08 No.11337481
    But it doesn't have to be that way.

    I, for one, would love to play in a setting like this.
    >> Alpharius 07/25/10(Sun)01:11 No.11337529
    The problem, again, is that these paladins have never had their vows laid out plainly. Without their oaths being readily apparent, people fall back on the PHB oath which is simply not applicable to this situation. Any oath should consist of three components: what the Paladin vows to uphold, what the Paladin vows to never do, and what happens should the Paladin fail in his oaths, all clearly delineated.

    Also, Skeletons and Zombies are not Evil. They are Neutral, and are closer to necromanticaly-empowered constructs than actual undead. While more intelligent undead are usually evil, there are exceptions to the rule.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:11 No.11337538
    PALADIN. UNWAVERING. No one would be left alive in the Black Kingdoms, so says their God.

    God dammit, why do you assfags think that Paladins are just these generic touchy feely dicksuckers? THEY KILL EVIL THINGS. THEY KNOW WHAT IS EVIL. IS IT EVIL? THEN THEY MURDER IT.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:20 No.11337664
    you forgot BECAUSE I SAID SO
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:20 No.11337684
    Now you're getting it.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:26 No.11337770
    I don't really see why your using paladins then, I would just have the Grand March of Knights be a organization. The oath is what defines what a paladin is, even if its not the same oath in the phb, they would have some sort of morality that they upheld to.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:27 No.11337775
    No, first they try to redeem it. If they cannot redeem it, then they destroy it.
    >> Alpharius 07/25/10(Sun)01:36 No.11337898
    >The oath is what defines what a paladin is, even if its not the same oath in the phb, they would have some sort of morality that they upheld to

    That's what I just said. Their oath needs to be defined, and since I'm not the OP I don't know what direction he wants to go with his Paladin's Oath. The Oath makes the Paladin, and without it he's nothing. However, because the Great March's oath hasn't been clearly explained, everyone talking about alignment or what the Paladins would or would not do is talking out their ass, especially given that these Paladins are clearly at least somewhat different from the Paladins as defined in the PHB.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:40 No.11337975
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    honestly thought you were OP
    >> Texasfag 07/25/10(Sun)01:41 No.11337984
    In a strong feudal society, the situation laid out for the Black Baronies would never work out.

    The Black Baronies, obviously, aren't a strong feudal society.

    Often the King could barely count on his own specific tract of territory, and his Barons could be counted on to keep his power in check and wage petty wars on each other constantly.

    Bringing Paladins into the mix would be just another strategy for one up-and-comer to get the drop on his rivals. I doubt it would warrant that much outrage. These guys ARE using the souls of the damned to keep their positions of power, I think we've moved beyond where you can show moral outrage over going "beyond the pale" at using a certain strategy.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:41 No.11337988
    >Great March's oath
    Why would every single paladin's oath be the same
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:41 No.11337994
    Ok, non-traditional paladins, knights, who cares?
    The setting is still beyond cool.
    Is this thread dead?
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:42 No.11338013
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:43 No.11338026
    divine mandate could be one, they are a divine class
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:44 No.11338032
    it's not exactly dead, but it's definitely been taken off boil and set to simmer.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 07/25/10(Sun)01:45 No.11338063
    So let me get this straight...
    Free castle, free movement through these lands we were previously barred from. You're gonna keep making undead and acting like the other nobles, but have no problem with us wiping out your creations... so we also include free target practice and training in the deal.

    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:46 No.11338070
    The thread has highs and lows. Hopefully it'll last until the OP comes back. If not, its archived.

    How many Black Baronies should there be?
    What is so special about the Black King?
    What if the an Elite Guard wants to JOIN the March?
    What other countries are there? What was that about the Banner Fleet?
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:47 No.11338087
    No two clerics have the same oath, even ones of the same god. why would Paladins, who do not even need a god, have the same oath.
    >> Texasfag 07/25/10(Sun)01:50 No.11338147
    Second, regarding all the bawwing about associating with evil that's going on here:

    D&D alignment system tends to be very simplistic, which is fine. Some people want fairly simplistic games and there's nothing wrong with that. The purpose of this setting (and of the Grand March / Banner Fleet in general) is to help explore some concepts of good as approached from different directions.

    In this situation, the Grand March isn't just an army, its a large, multinational political-economic-military organization. Its leaders must face the reality of doing justice (their ideal) in a longer-term way, while keeping the organization itself intact. As a historical example, the Templars, an organization of fighter-monks, routinely allied with Muslims in an effort to keep the Kingdom of Jerusalem safe. In other words, when you have an overriding purpose (in this case, freeing the lands of the Black Baronies) then you can make choices regarding the best way to get to that, so long as you do not betray core principles in so doing.

    Are Paladins sword-slashing OORAH evil-detecting morons? In many campaigns, yes. In this one being part of a large organization - and being something more than simple linesmen, which is what the PCs must be if they are to do anything interesting - the answer must be a resounding 'no.'

    Similarly, are vampires all blood-sucking, manipulating, conniving evil men who must be staked at the nearest opportunity? Does retaining sentience not leave them with their own traditions, choices and moral dilemmas?

    You could say the former and have a grand ol' time with it. The latter allows for some interesting role play, though. So why not explore what happens when a bunch of Paladins with a flexible mindset meet a bunch of Vampires with their own complex motivations, loyalties and sense of honor? It is still, in the end, good vs evil. But good isn't everything in +1 plate mail, and bad isn't anything that the sun burns. Makes it more interesting.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:50 No.11338160
    greater specialization and solidarity of purpose
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:54 No.11338225
    I read the last thread too. You and the OP are good together, Texasfag.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)01:55 No.11338253
    Aaaand way to not read the last line.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)02:01 No.11338345
    I do agree with the setting be interesting, I just don't agree that a paladin can have a flexible mindset. I also don't think that makes them defaulted to lawful stupid. I do think it makes them have a harsh life unable to do the smallest of evil deeds, and ultimately makes them a tragic characters, unable to fully connect to the rest of the world
    >> Texasfag 07/25/10(Sun)02:02 No.11338358
    As far as details of the Black Baronies...

    There should be quite a few. Together, they should be too great a force for even the Grand March to deal with. Say, 18 baronies of varying sizes, all (nominally) ruled over by some King/Pope/whatever.

    The thing about feudal societies is how squabble-based they are. People are ever-vying for more power, territory, wealth - whatever. Barons are, at their heart, power-lusters. So this new tactic of inviting the Paladins in will send shockwaves through the Baronies - and with a disunited set of Barons, the King/Pope/Whatever will have little power.

    Basically, think of the worst politicking/backbiting/maneuvering you can think of. This is what would happen. All in some court under diplomatic pretense as the Barons try to maneuver to whichever side will gain them the most power, prestige or just a second lease on life. The divisions are what will allow a segment of the Great March to perhaps turn things around - or result in the Baronies themselves being turned into simple administrative arms for a more powerful central leader, creating a whole new, united and dangerous enemy for the Great March. Or something else entirely - DMs can get creative.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)02:06 No.11338424
    Oh god. Imagine the PCs having to act as bodyguards for the Necromancer Prince has he goes to make a diplomatic meeting at a meeting of the Barons
    >> Texasfag 07/25/10(Sun)02:07 No.11338450

    Thanks. I try. And the OP is a good 'un.

    In summary, you can take this campaign in roughly 3 modes.

    1 - EZ Mode. Paladins roll in, Necromancer acedes to the Great Marches demand in exchange for being kept as Baron, begin hunting undead there and elsewhere.

    2 - My Paladin is Fight. Paladins roll in, ally with good vamps, roll out and start kicking (evil) undead ass.

    3 - Brofist under the Pale Moon. Paladins roll in, must cooperate with technically good but very foreign Vamps, learn about a different culture, the mindset (and mindfuck) of being a vampire, and that just because you suck blood doesn't mean you have to be a dick. Also, kick some evil undead ass and deal with court intrigue.

    Overall, I'd prefer 3. But 1 and 2 are cool as well. It really depends on what kind of group you are running and what they are in it for.

    In fact, I suggest "Brofist Under the Pale Moon" as the name for this campaign idea. Its a memorable name and describes it fairly well.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)02:14 No.11338586
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    Bump in the hope there's more when I get up in the morning
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)02:22 No.11338743
    I am also curious about foreign lands. These baronies seem like they would strongly conflict with their neighbors. Even if they are isolated, they have to border somebody, right?
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)02:23 No.11338752

    An oath to serve the greater good.

    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)02:28 No.11338822
    Remove the paladins ability to detect evil with their divine powers.

    While principled, moral and strong willed men they are still mortal and are not infallible. Basically, you let each paladin ponder what greater good could be accomplished with performing a lesser evil. With the inability to just automatically decide what is good and what is bad, you may have paladins waver in their rigid faith. Some are willing to put up with this near blatant act of blasphemy in order to extinguish the greater evil. The more traditionalists staunchly and fanatically refuse, leading to the risk of civil war.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)02:45 No.11339082
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    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)02:48 No.11339111
    you would also have the change how falling from grace works if you do that, otherwise its another sign of "this guy is morally wrong"
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)02:55 No.11339186
    They might. They also might not.

    Paladins are ripe for moral dilemmas. If their plight is great enough, they may accept. I'd say that it depends highly upon the paladin's order, their god(s) and their tenets.

    Given that the lord and the paladins will always be at odds in one way or another, it could definitely be a interesting political setting. But all this is only possible as long as the lord in question isn't outright evil, or at least very, very lawful with "fair deals" for the people (which is entirely within the Lawful Evil alignment, seeing as how he has a deal with the paladins).

    Some paladins will have huge problems with this scenario, since having "Kill the living motherfucking shit out of all undead bitches like it's nobody's business" as prime tenets is somewhat common.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)08:29 No.11342999
    I'm amazed that people are now calling them the Black Baronies. I just think that Baron von Kreuz sounds good for the prince. As for the HRE, based on EU3, basically a collection of states (mainly German) of varying titles (baronies, duchies, bishopies, ect) with an elected Emperor. Any non-member state that attacks a member state is supposed to get the wrath of the Emperor. Infighting was fine as long as you had cause. But I'm liking the idea of making the Blacklands medieval Germany, and why would someone want a secure route into/through Germany? Also, The Barony of Kreuzung is not Brandenburg.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)10:57 No.11344726
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    Good going guys, its nice to see this thread is pic related when /tg/ moves as fast as /b/ some days.

    Little stuff before big stuff.

    First off, the Grand March will *not* be having an oath defined for them. Taking an entire army and giving them a single narrowly defined contract that they MUST obey is basically saying "Get your diapers and your bib, because this is about how simple this setting is." Every Paladin has an Oath, personalized and to them, that the structure of the Grand March respects... but is no way beholden to them. And while I'm sure someone's going to roll their eyes and whine at it, breaking the letter of an oath isn't INSTAFALL.

    The Necromancer Prince is not interested in making more undead, though he wants to keep his Elite Guard from diminishing in numbers and power.

    I'm not singling you out, but you summed up a lot of opinions in this thread. Paladins are inflexible 2-dimensional beings unable to act like people? Eh. No. They might be a little more inflexible than some people, but no. Thats not how they're going to work here.

    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)11:02 No.11344776
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    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)11:17 No.11344896
    Excellent points.

    I especially like the Grand March having personified oaths.

    Hell, by the end of the campaign you could perhaps have vampires in the Grand March, who only drink donated blood.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)11:27 No.11344963
    Once again, Texasfag, you bring wonderful detail to my vague idea. Paladin Quest: Brofist Under The Pale Moon. I love it.

    I THINK I follow. And the reason someone would want a path through Germany? Okay, you need to go from France to Poland, and Italy and Switerland are more mountainous.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)11:29 No.11344993
    /and I apparently did big stuff before little stuff.

    Dammit, I didn't get enough sleep
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)11:30 No.11345001
    And if it's loosely based on medieval Germany, lots of creepy dense woods.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)11:33 No.11345016
    and creepy Germans!
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)11:36 No.11345040
    If the Paladins will operate on the farmlands, it might be handy for them to have some authority to show.

    Like, you enter a village, but the local vampire noble is unwilling to cooperate.

    You CAN punch him in the face, but that's likely to come back on your head later.

    If you have a Royal Servant ring from the Prince, things are a lot easier.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)11:37 No.11345054
    Baron von Kreuz is not creepy. He's a rather nice gentleman who happens to have 40 or so elite vampire guards. Yes I think it's a good name.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)11:40 No.11345078
    Yes! Creepy, dense woods, with leaves so dark green they are almost black. The sun itself seems to be so weak in the Black Baronies, weak enough that you can stare at it at high noon, and see only a silvery disk in the sky. Webs seem to hang in the joints of the trees, sickly and white as spiders of all sizes scuttle over them. The dark magics have infused into this land. The dirt is dark and wet beneath your feet, the grass brittle and sharp. Rock formations jut out randomly, like the bones of the earth jutting against its skin as it grows sickly and gaunt.
    >> Texasfag 07/25/10(Sun)11:40 No.11345079
    Its awesome that this thread is still alive. And I got a good night's

    OP, if you are a DM, you should get a group together from teegee that's interested in taking this campaign idea seriously. I just don't have time - and such an interesting setting makes me want to be a player again anyway.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)11:58 No.11345268
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    Hopefully that's only in the wilds. Something people always seems to forget is that even in the dark and tainted kingdoms, the serfs still have to eat. They're not going to be importing food, seriously the 'good' kingdoms would never sell large quantities of food to kingdoms likely to use it to field a large army of conquest. Even if they only grow hardy food the serfs still need sunlight and rain for their crops. Turnips, beats, potatoes, think stuff for poor soil and short growing seasons.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)12:02 No.11345323
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    This thread is immortal.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)12:15 No.11345463
    the "local" authorities, the burgomeisters, the mayors, etc, are all going to be human. They can still fear and resent the March, but only the Elite Guard are vampires.

    My only complaint is that like calling him the Necromancer Prince. Von Kreuz is a wonderful name though. Love the irony of the meaning too.

    You say that like roleplaying is a bad thing. And I'd love to do it, but time is a constraint, and my regular group.. well, lemme put it this way. I have a Munchkin player, a Dwarf Fortress Player, and a WoD player. I ain't running this campaign.

    Well, thats just the forests at least. I still want to convey the message that its not quite right. They still grow crops, but the food never looks healthy, everything grows looking withered. Most crops are low to the ground things at best.
    >> Anonymous 07/25/10(Sun)13:29 No.11346527
    I wasn't going for irony. I just chopped the ending off of the Kreuzung, common thing in my mind that noble houses have names based on their land. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that Kreuz is cross if Kreuzung is crossroad.

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