>>7084314
I-what? So, we are embodied once more, and there are others with us? I'm not sure what has just happened.

Um, look around, what do we see? Is the reaper still around? Why did he separate us from the rest of everything and pull us in if he was just going to let us out again?

>>7084369
christfag shit is shit,
I can take a gander for you, you're in hell for not worshiping or something similarly bullshit,

>>7084418
DId you even look at OP's pic? Dude's Atheist. How is he a Christfag?

Seconding looking around.

>>7084445

>>7084418
Fairly sure there's nothing in the Bible about the Reaper wearing a suit of armor. Actually, is there anything about the Grim Reaper in the Bible at all?

Cast magic missile.

>>7084453
I lol'd.

Wait. OP said "the Americans", implying we are not American, but in a place where the DoD can reach. Where were we? What was/is out nationality?

>>7084465
angel of death. his name is Azriel in some of sacted text but thats the reaper. he takes egypts first born. he also fucks up syrias army one time. there are a few more instances i cant remember.

>>7084465
I was working on the assumption of god having a bunch of angel buttmonkeys he orders around, which he is usually depicted as having in most of the faiths. its probably someones job to fairy souls, the poor bastards. at least they probably don't have to put up with him too much.

The armor is floating above you at about 4 meters, and is about 10 meters away at the other side of the room. There are about 3 men getting up between you and the armor- all naked and confused. There are a variety of people in the room- metal walls- the floor covered in a misty watery substance. It seems to be a pool, as there appear to be edges at the top of the walls. Behind the Reaper armor is a metal looking door.

The Reaper hovers silently, scythe in hand- itself being some 15 meters tall.

>>7084503
correction OFF SACRED text is what i meant

>>7084503
Ah, thanks for that. The more you know, right?

>>7084513
Um, call out and ask what's going on? If the guys IS the angel of death, he/she/it probably knows a thing or two.

Get up. Try t remember about our life. What did we do?

>>7084546
no problem good sir/madam

sage for fail.

>>7084314
>Atheists, losing to idiots since 2000 BC
FTFY

>>7084513
Dude has a 15 ft scythe? Fuck yes, try to get him to lend it to us. Imagine the shit we could do with that.

>>7084600
...Touche.
Also, sage. You picked a bad pic, OP, this thread is doomed.

>>7084314

OP's pic is basically an argument against God's existance that philosophers call "The Problem of Evil."

Today though, most philosophers can easily defeat the problem of evil with either the "Free Will Defense" or a form of the "Soul Making Theodocy". Some even use another where they claim that there is a greater order of good that justifies lesser orders of evil.

Just saying, you should go look those up. You don't want to look uninformed or willfully ignorant the way Dawkins does.

>>7084640
More like that's how theologians weasel there way out of it. If you go into a good university's philosophy department, you're not going to find any true believers.

Still waiting to hear what out nationality was.

>>7084660
>there way
?REPHRASE IN ENGLISH ERROR

>>7084678
your an idiot :(

>>7084674
>out nationality
?REPHRASE IN ENGLISH ERROR

>Free Will Defense

We have free will because the boss says so!

>>7084689
>your
?REPHRASE IN ENGLISH ERROR

>>7084660
That sounds suspiciously like a completely unfounded sweeping statement.

>>7084660

Even the atheists philosophers tend to agree the problem of evil is dead (unless you're Mackie). Most of them tend to take an epistemological stance on the issue, explaining how belief in God's existence can never be strongly justified, or how we can't trust religious experience's, etc.

The reaper does not speak. Perhaps because it does not speak arabic. It then occurs to you that you speak arabic. A quick glance at your hands shows they are dark and slender. Your body- what you can see of it- is no different. To say the least you do not appear very strong. There is no reflection in the misty substance.

Your memory is... incomplete. You remember your death. You remember your name: Sha'een (not easily written in roman letters, sorry). You remember Kuwait. You remember computers. You remember how to walk and speak and various things of this nature.

You can't remember math. You can't remember reading- not just how to read- you can't remember READING. You can't remember sleep or what it was like. You can't remember philosophy or religion or your opinions on things, though it seems you can form them now, but from what?

You do remember science. You remember all sorts of scientific facts.

You do remember the bullet to your brain.

>>7084690
You know what he meant. Same for >>7084678

>>7084693
Damn straight! Now take it back so I can blame him for all the bad stuff that happens, instead of taking responsibility!

>>7084707

Sorry, I meant Strong Normative justification, not merely Strong Justification.

Enough with the debate, people, let the guy run his quest, before we get the trolls in here. I, for one, am interested to see where this is going.

>>7084660
this
none of those piece of shit arguments are satisfying.
the only logical conclusion you can make about the Abrahamic god if you assume he exists is he is an irredeemable evil being on par with Hitler, columbus and pretty much anyone who ever attempted a religious war or genocide.

>>7084712
Tch, wouldn't you know it, the guy doesn't speak out language. Perhaps we could try speaking SLOWELY AND LOUDLY. That allways works for the Americans, yes?

On a more serious note, do the other people around seem like they are Arabic as well? Can we get an idea of their Nationality?

Talk with the closest person. Ask if they know what is going on.

>>7084763

(looks like some one is willfully ignorant of the entire debate and just decides that God is evil based on nothing)

>>7084707
those are all valid, but i prefer to stick with the evil problem because it is not been discarded, there is quite clearly a god of omnipotence forcing people to commit murder for the 'crime' of not worshiping him,
Christianity not only has no logical basis, it has no moral one as well.

>>7084660

looks like some ones never been in a philosophy department. Are you sure you're not confusing it with sociology? There ARE a lot of atheist philosophers on average, but the theists aren't a small minority by any stretch in the 21st millenium. It's like when people try to make judgements about todays Catholic church based on shit in the 110th century.

>>7084788
see
>>7084813

>>7084763
No way! I know Big G, he's a pretty nice guy. I needed fifty bucks once, and found two twenties and a ten under my bed. I never keep money there. What explanation is there other than God helped me out?

NOw can we get back to the Quest? Talk to some people. If they can't understand us, go to the edge of the pool and climb out.

>>7084813

Well then you should read into those defenses I listed, because the Logical and Ethical Problem of Evil are pretty much dead.

>>7084819
he probably lives somewhere other than in the shit hole that is america.

>>7084831
you didn't list any of the defenses, nor did you explain how what i said is somehow innaccurate, which if true proves the problem of evil is real.

>>7084819

>10th century

fixed

You speak with the nearest person- a small asian woman whose attention is directed at a small scene occurring behind you. As you approach her she startles and backs away from you in fear. There do not appear to be any others of arabic descent, though on the far end of the room opposite the Reaper, there are some black men who may be african.

The scene which drew the asian woman's attention now draws yours. An enormous caucasian man with a limp mohawk and excessively toned physique is looming over a panicking blonde woman. He is currently having an argument with slightly smaller red headed man- who although of similar height may still only be half this man's size. The altercation ends when the mohawk backhands the red headed gentleman, knocking him into a backflip.

>>7084870
Reminds me of prison.

>>7084870
Do we understand what they are/were saying? Fuck, I have a bad feeling about where this is going... We just had a thread about rape! It isn't okay!

>>7084852

"The free will defense"
"The Soul making theodicy"
Justification by Higher orders of Good.

Just look up "The problem of Evil" on wikipedia, and they will at least tell you what those are. If you really want to use the Problem of Evil though, you're going to have to improve on it to defeat those.

Free will defense (VERY BASIC): Evil is the result of Human free will, and isn't God's fault.

Soul Making theodicy (VERY BASIC): Evils of the world are meant to build character, and we are better as a result of them.

Different orders of Good/Evil (VERY BASIC): Some forms of good are only possible if there are evils being committed (example: compassion for the suffering). These orders of good are so great that they justify all evil.

Again, you're going to just have to teach yourself. I'm not trying to prove it to you, smarter gentlement already have. Just pointing out that you could avoid making a lot of mistakes, or refine your understanding if you are motivated enough to check it out yourself.

>>7084870

It occurs to me that I cannot speak their language, so I possible cannot know what they are saying nor form any snap judgments. I watch with mild interest, ready to leap to the woman's defense should anything untoward happen.

>>7084897
No. You understood the red headed man spoke some form of English. The mohawk was not responding in English. But other than this you do not know what was said.

>>7084870
So is it just us, the Asian woman, the blond and the two other men? If there are other people, how are they reacting to this? How should WE react? Is Azreal doing anything? Does he mind if we call him Azzy? So many questions.

I'd say ask the Caucasian man what he is doing, but I doubt he can understand us.

>>7084924
This.

>>7084937

I postulate that death transcends language barriers, and begin speaking with the red-haired man in English.

>>7084919
wow, those defenses are a joke, when most evil is a direct result from gods orders and himself.
he is not some hapless twit who thinks letting a small child get her arms ripped off the raped to death will be a nice learning experiance for her to praise jesus. he ACTIVELY demanded his followers commit moral crimes that are not limited to killing enslaving and harming others and set up his requirements for non destruction in such a way that for nearly 1700 years only a small portion of the world could have any chance, willfully or otherwise, of saving themselves from it.

>>7084919

I also forgot, even Mackie, the only contemporary philosopher who is pushing the Problem of Evil, admits that it is dead. Even as he wrote about how the problem of evil is a challenge for some defenses, he pointed out that there are a number of other very simple ways to completely eliminate the issue.

The best one he makes is that nearly all theists, especially most Christian Denominations, define omnipotent as only being what is "Logicallly possible". That means that God is not required to make round squares. He even says that with THAT definition of Omnipotence, the problem of Evil has no case what so ever.

>>7084919
Free will defense--why did God make us as we are, rather than making us more inclined to to do good than to do evil? Our will would be no less free than it is now.

Soul-making--this is ascribing a motive without evidence, and is a practice that is considered monstrous when humans do it to each other.

Different orders--an absurdity that is actually comparable to simply saying, "We don't know why God allows suffering to exist." Consider: how can rape, torture, and murder possibly be justified? We are simply told to take on faith the claim that they somehow contribute to a good we cannot perceive.

The problem of evil has never been solved by supporters of a moral, omnipotent god.

>>7084983

Those are trying to fit arguments that fill books into a single sentence each. Cut me SOME slack, and just read about it yourself instead of showing how close minded and ignorant you are to me.

>>7084999
>>7084985
>>7084983

Please take all theological discussions as they relate to the nature of the existence of evil to another thread, please. You're disrailing this one, and I'm rather interested in where it's going.

Hey, OP. Good luck with that quest thread you tried, ya moron. Next time, try a less trolly pic.

>>7084943

The room is enormous- larger than an Olympic pool and deep enough to hold the Reaper- hence the walls are too large to climb. There may be about 50-60 people in the room, however it looks somewhat empty as you are spread out. People are trying to figure out what's going on- English speakers are clustering here and there and gathering. Since two men have already been knocked cold (one before you had taken notice), nobody else in the near vicinity is trying to interfere with the mohawk. He is hiding no intention as to what he intends to do with the blonde woman.

((huh, fucker actually rolled to know arabic, 2% chance))
"Hah! I know some of that dirty language!" he says with what you can now identify as a Russian accent. "But unless you can tell me what fuck this is, you back off. I'd rather not kill one person I can talk to."

>>7085016
this is a quest thread about the afterlife

of course there are going to be theological discussions, are you fucking dense?

Most modern philosophers don't even believe in a metaphysical justification for ethics anyway. However, they still use the paradox because you only need to use the Bible's standard of good and evil for it to apply. Anyway, this argument is pretty retarded, mostly because it's obvious you learned philosophy from your theology professor at a community college in bumfuckistan.

While I am enjoying this philosophy discussion, perhaps we should do as >>7085016 suggests and start a new thread for it? I dislike the notion of stopping or interfering with others' attempts at threads.

>>7085046

As they relate to the existence of evil. There's no need for rudeness here. Besides, you know as well as I do that any theological debate on 4chan will descend into trollery quickly, assuming that it hasn't already. The atheists, the antitheists, and various theists will destroy all other conversation.

>>7085045

Just wondering what that altercation was about, and whether you know what's going on.

>>7085045
Oh shi-

Okay. So he is planning to force himself sexually upon the woman? Well, let's do what we can to keep his attention away from her.

Do we have any memories about religion from our previous life? If so, tell him about what we know. And can we get an idea of our height? Sorry if you've said it already, I must have missed it.

Worst comes to worst, call for help from the others. They might not speak Arabic, but we should be able to call out to get their attention.

>>7085016
>Information Singularity !kr3RP8S.1.
mystery solved /thread

Tell him that you don't want to die either, and that we should wait to see what happens, the reaper might take offense if act out too much, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down

>>7085093
You cannot remember any philosophy or religion, though you can think and ponder on these things- it appears as though those areas of knowledge and the thoughts you once had on them have been damaged.

You are slender, somewhat tall, but still not as tall as mohawk. He is perhaps 2 meters tall. You are about 1.8 tall, and while you are clearly an ectomorph, he is clearly a man concerned about his physical prowess. You don't appear very strong- though you might be quick- you can't remember and haven't tried yet.

You tell him the last thing you remember was being shot in the head by Americans.

He responds, "yes? I think I was shot too. I remember blood and snow. And Chechnya. I kill men like you yes? Whiny men so afraid to die they are willing to blow selves up." He grins at you. The girl makes an attempt to get up and flee- without looking he grabs her by the shoulder and lifts her with a pincer grip. She lets out a yelp so loud you wonder if he just broke her collar bone.

>>7085161
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

ask him what he's planning to do with the woman. Why does he want to rape her? Surely there are other things of more import than sex to be done now. Like finding out what is going on.

And tell him that we are not a terrorist. Or at least, we don't remember being a terrorist.

>>7085161
tell him not to be rash, assure him you have nothing to do with his war and tell him about the americans. Russia is still pretty sore over the cold war and establishing common ground here is important, if anything at least warn him of the dangers of acting wildly in an unknown place with ethereal creatures isn't the best course of action

>>7085161
Appeal to Azzy for an impartial view on what we should do? I dunno, maybe he'll answer us this time.

I like your idea >>7085208

>>7085226
Thank you for the support, in cases like these one must find the motive of their captor, if that is what he is...

>>7085254
Yep. If we can manage to get this guy calmed down, we should really try to communicate with whoever is in charge here. Azzy seems unresponsive. Might there be some other higher being that we can talk to? We should find out ASAP.

>>7085271
Gave myself a name to help clear things up, hope you don't mind. The ruskie seems pretty sharp, not book wise intelligence but I wouldn't want to try to use him. He already has a negative disposition towards us because of our race and the only reason he doesn't prison rape us is because we can communicate. What other languages does he know?

Hey, for all we know this woman is like double hitler or something. We should really just ask about shit before we risk a physical encounter.

You emphasize that you were killed and are presumably the enemy of Americans, though that doesn't make you a terrorist any more than he. You then warn him there may be consequences and urge him there are more important things to do in this situation. Your appeal to the Reaper yields only an echo among shouts of other confused and increasingly restless pool dwellers.

Mohawk ponders lightly your proposal- the woman screaming and kicking in the air- her arms trying to pry herself free. He responds, "Consequences did not stop me in life- and what will they do now that I am dead? Kill me?"

"I suggest you put her down," a voice emanates from the top of the pool. Mohawk releases her without argument, then whirls around somewhat indignant.

"Hey! That is not what I wanted to do!" shouts mohawk.

Atop the wall you see a gnarled old man. His eyes seem enormous, yet you know somehow they're not. His face looks heavily scarred, and a long hoary beard protrudes from his chin, but only his chin. He has silver robes fashioned into something of a uniform and an imperial ebony looking staff.
"While we do not afford to discriminate any specific moral preferences, you will treat all members with respect! Do you understand me!"

He taps his staff to the ground, and a pulse initiates from it. Language barriers are dissolved for the time being.

>>7084919


Free will defense: Yeah, because introducing Humanity into the complete clusterfuck of a gladiatorial arena that is the physical world as we know it is TOTALLY not anything even a non-omnipotent God is going to have to take responsibility for. It's like throwing an ant into an antlion trap, then claiming it's the ant's fault for getting itself killed.

Soul Making theodicy: Because as we know, living on a starvation diet for fourteen years of life and then getting raped and mutilated is always good character building - and the sort of character building that everybody gets to go through, instead of happening repeatedly to one fraction of the population, and only being read about in newspapers by another.

Different orders of Good/Evil: Personally, while I can see the value of experiencing the hope-inspiring comfort of a loved one after a permanently debilitating car crash, if offered the choice, I would much rather not have had the permanently debilitating car crash in the first place, hope-inspiring comfort be damned. Coping with tragedy is not something that can be valued above avoiding tragedy in the first place.

So, if you had to ask me what I thought of God and the Afterlife, if either exists, they'd have to be something close to a (hopefully) less grimdark version of Slaanesh - experience, in all its myriad forms, being shared through a collective mind. I suppose that if all of it was felt by everyone, the vast myriad of things generated by sentient existence could all wind up being of collective value; not that I'm particularly enthralled at the idea of living the holocaust six million times over (for just one example). That said, the idea that we've all just had the strange fortune of being thinking entities caught up by chance in the biological arms race doesn't seem all that unlikely either.

>>7084314

This is where Epicurus goes wrong, by the way.

God is able, but unwilling to prevent evil. This does not make God malevolent, in fact, the exact opposite is true. To prevent humanity from making choices and rob them of free-will and the consequences that flow from choices is purest evil.

God refuses to stoop to evil, and allows His children to experience the results of their choices in full force because He is just. Certainly God prevents some results of evil choice from actually coming to fruition, in the same way that we mortals would move to stop a psychopath on a rampage, but He never interferes with our ability to choose.

>>7085358
But our soul is what makes us go wrong. Bad souls do bad things and go to hell. Good souls do good things and go to heaven. God hands out the souls.

>>7085334
Well what we gain from this is that the old man is the boss. All of the nekkids are equal due to our titles as "Members" of what we are members of we do not know. This is not punishment due to the old man's lack of concern with our past.

I say we sit back and let things play out for now, ask the old man what we are members of.

>>7084837
Have you ever been to America?

Oh why bother trying at all. Not like you can get through to an idiot

>>7085334
Oh, fuck YES! Ask him why Azzy doesn't respond to us. This is our primary concern. Oh, and where are we, what are we doing here, etc,. Is this the afterlife? Why can't we remember some things?

>>7085323
I don't mind at all.

>>7085330
Preposterous! If she is double Hitler, where is her mustache?

>>7085358

But god created people to be evil in the first place.

He could've just made us so that we'd never choose evil in the first place, or kill the people he knows are going to do evil since he knows everything.

>>7085358
>> Certainly God prevents some results of evil choice from actually coming to fruition

Tell me, how does gee dash dee do this without absolutely fucking up creation?
Is He making a demonstrable change in existence, or, in the act of recreating the world from instant to instant, He leaves something out?
Either way, I call shenanigans.

>>7085358

If God didn't want us to commit evil, and didn't want to intervene and preclude our free will, he should have taken care to invent a different species.

>>7085358

God didn't have to put us in a world where competition was so necessarily intense as to generate atrocity, or give us the drive/occasional sociopathic urge to kill, or neglect to give us a considerably stronger psychological balance against murder and cruelty (something only partly favored by natural selection). If you're an Edenfag, then he certainly didn't have to make an ideal world, and then stick a big red juicy SELF DESTRUCT DO NOT PUSH button in the middle of it, ESPECIALLY knowing beforehand that his humans would push it if it was there (or is the meaning of the word "omniscient" lost to you?)

The old man speaks.

"Forbid this harsh welcome, but our methods are more efficeint than fanciful. I am Magus Kessler of the Order of the Silver Star. That doesn't mean much to you yet, but know that it is the highest order, and one of three ranks in it

"In short, you have died, but death is not the end for you. Whatever belief you still retain, discard them. This is the truth of things. You were torn form the clutches of death by one of our psychopomps, who tread the netherworld searching for lost souls. Not just any souls mind you, but only ones that are identified as being compatible to our purpose. Only such souls can be arisen through the divine energy of Bythos.

“There is no god, but evidently there used to be. You could have landed in the clutches of angels, devils, demons, or all sorts of ilk, but they would not have taken you, for you're not fitting to them. But you are so fitting for us, and so welcome to mankind's final bastion- the Gnostic Utopia.

"Now, there is much to do, but I suppose we should restore you to some more comfortable and better understood state? I would rather you take a somber understanding
of your present nudity, but in any case it I'll not impose my opinions regarding such a matter’s triviality.

“You may thank reaper CHARSISXV17 if you wish, for it is unlikely you will see him again. If you are not so sentimental, please proceed through the airlock that will now open up at the opposite end of the chamber” (gestures away from CHARSIS)

this quest just became unmitigated shit

>>7085477
Oh boy!
It's Sigil.

>>7085477
Oh my, well this is quite the turn about. knowing mankind we're at war with angels and demons and the supernatural world. Head for the exit, stick with the russian, having him warm up to you can grant a powerful ally. Judging our skills in the previous life we're in line for a tech/comm position.

>>7085477
PSYCHOPOMPS!

There's a word I haven't heard in a while. Say good-bye to Charsis for now, then get moving.

>>7085513
>>7085515
You two seem to know something about what is going on that I don't. Care to share?

>>7085373

Another good question - why make, or even knowingly allow, "naturally corrupt" souls to exist, given that a), they'd make things shit for everyone else during mortal life, and b), they themselves would be DESTINED WITHOUT CHOICE TO ETERNAL, NEVERENDING, LIMITLESSLY PAINFUL TORTURE. I mean seriously, Hitler deserves some very involved one-on-one time with about six million supremely pissed off Jews, but that? How does anybody ever deserve that, especially when they were made by someone else for the sole purpose of experiencing it?

>>7085358
Bullshit. I'm sorry, that's just bullshit. If there were a just and loving deity it could just as easily give you free will in heaven. Creating a miserable material existence as some kind of entry exam for paradise isn't good free will or no, it's sadistic.

You say goodbye to CHARSIS, but there is no more response now than there has been yet. While everyone else files out to the airlock (those battered by the russian at a somewhat faster pace, including the men who tried to help), the russian stands his ground, refusing to leave.

He looks at you, a raised eyebrow wondering whether you're going to leave too.

Such is the nature of the possibility of the Abrahamic God existing. If hypothetically it did, it would be unimaginably evil even by its own standards.

>>7085586
Fuck it, let's stay for a bit more. Maybe you get a bonus if you don't go with the crowd right away?

>>7084314
>If God is able to prevent evil, but not willing, then He is malevolent.

Thus committing the classic fallacy.
Those who have not studied religious theory do not recognize the importance of "Free Will" within Judeo-Christian philosophy.

I don't know anything about sigil, after that I'm just really looking into the facts and details to see the best route of survival.

>>7085373
Maybe! Though your explanation doesn't jive with much of anything else.

>>7085405
>But god created people to be evil in the first place.
You mean "with the capacity to be evil." That is inherent to free will.

>>7085467
>and then stick a big red juicy SELF DESTRUCT DO NOT PUSH button in the middle of it
So you believe there should have been no way to be removed from Eden?

In any state in which change is possible, given infinite time, change will occur. And according to that story, humans were immortal while within Eden.

>God didn't have to put us in a world where competition was so necessarily intense as to generate atrocity, or give us the drive/occasional sociopathic urge to kill, or neglect to give us a considerably stronger psychological balance against murder and cruelty (something only partly favored by natural selection).
These are all purely subjective, relative observations. Were the past to be changed to mitigate any of these points, exactly the same argument as you are making would still be made.

>>7085656

They also don't recognize that "evil" may be something different for an omniscient being who transcends time and space.

How about all you annoying fuckers with the philosophy debate go move to a different thread so as not to fuck up the conversation that's actually GOING somewhere?

>>7085663

>You mean "with the capacity to be evil." That is inherent to free will.

You're begging the question as to whether or no free will exists.

>>7085656
>the importance of "Free Will"

That always felt like a cop-out to me. God appeared before the Isrealites in the old testament. He wasnt really giving them free choice in the matter, he was clearly saying "Here I am, witness my power and bow in awe". And its not like he allowed them to later disregard him. Every single time they slipped up he'd rain down all kinds of hell. Point is, why is it different today?

Although honestly I grew tired of the atheist vs. Theist debate long ago. Both sides have counterpoints to everything from the other side so it gets nowhere slowly.

>>7085358
See, that would only hold water IF 'evil' was only committed upon others capable of defending themselves, and there were clear consequences whether or not one "repents" or not.

Instead you get untold numbers of sociopaths, psychopaths and deviants practicing their trades regularly, most of them never caught, many of them acting 'in the name of god', many of them let free on technicalities or simply never caught or stopped.

In fact evil has the advantage, moreso in more theological societies, where this supposed god's own 'words' and 'laws' are in and of themselves considered monstrous atrocities when performed by humans on humans. The greedy and immoral have the greatest advantage when trying for positions of power, and otherwise righteous men go powermad and corrupt half the time, and made powerless by men that ARE the other half.

There is no justice or 'greater good' in letting a pedobear rape and cut up some 3 year olds. The dead kids learn no lessons, and the criminal learns nothing other than how better to not get caught.

Allowing evil to this scale, and, in fact, encouraging and DEMANDING it, even calling it just or good, does not make it good. Yours is a malevolent entity, hiding behind flimsy excuses.

A man with such power would be tried as accomplice for allowing such horrors to happen. Your invisible sky fairy is nothing but a "I have a bigger buddy that thinks exactly like I do" kind of threat. Older and for a long time more effective than "our words are backed by nuclear weapons" but no less dire.

>>7085656

The russian breaks the silence. "So you want to see what happens too? Or are you my bitch already?"

((OOC: It isn't apparent yet, but the background discourse is the perfect background music for this campaign. These issues of good and evil- these debates of god or no god. They are as annoying and endless as war...))

The real flaw to Epicurus's argument is that god could be able, willing, and stupid.

>>7085756
We are the female dog of no one! We merely wish to see what happens if we don't do what we are told. It may be a test.

Hmmm, wondering if we can climb into Charsis...
BECOME THE REAPER!

>>7085756
Our death was caused by resisting those who told us what to do, why stop now?

>>7085405
The theory goes that God created man with the CAPABILITY for both good and evil.

If you subscribe to the Calvinist belief that each person is already predestined for either salvation or damnation, then you don't believe in free will, and there's not much of a discussion we can have.

If you're an atheist, you should recognize the importance of free will in a society (look at free speech issues in developed countries) and understand why a God would place that value above all others for those "created in His image."

>>7085768
that would explain why he let people start worshiping him. Oh, and the Crusades. Retarded God is a great explanation for the Crusades.

>>7085756
I'm also hesitant to leave, I'd like to talk to the old man some, clothes would be nice though. Looks like things have taken a turn for the worst with the ruskie, ditch him in pursuit of more applicable and trustworthy friends that wont rape us

>>7085817
also, unintelligent design conveniently explains the appendix.

The russian laughs at your response, but not in mockery. "Ahh... suspicious. A good attitude for those who have died by a bullet."
There is a beat- a pause in speech.
"You may call me Raiz. It is not Russian, but that is the name I remember. You are brave to stand so close to me- or perhaps you are sure the Magus will save you if I choose to harm you?

>>7084640
But free will dosn't exist...

>>7085829
>friends that won't rape us
I like the way you think.

>>7085713
Well, that's what makes it a philosophy debate rather than a Scientific one.
People on both sides are "doing it wrong" when they try to act like you can "prove" anything, or that the other side is somehow an idiot for not believing the exact same thing you do.

All you can do in philosophy is explore the tenets that you believe and understand- and listen to the ones that OTHER people hold- in an attempt to figure out what the hell we're doing on Earth.

The judeo-christian "free will" is in itself a fallacy. Any and all 'good' acts done under the following of its tenets are performed by a coerced being. That is not free will.

To help an old lady across the street, or to not shoot someone, are not acts of free will when they are performed under the threat of a disproportionate (eternal for a finite transgression often made more minor by the rule's own arguments for an afterlife) punishment is the same as doing these things at gunpoint.

There is, additionally, a severe lack of free will when entire populations are enslaved by the followers of that very deity, themselves enslaved to its priests and rules.

The bible itself debunks omnipotence and omnicience though, so that gawd's neither all powerful or all knowing. It gets angry at events it created itself (the magic knowledge tree, the banished; not 'eliminated/destroyed' morningstar, the placement of said tree in a garden where two naive beings incapable (as said knowledge only comes from consuming the fruit) of understanding concepts such as 'no', 'wrong' and 'punishment' are allowed to consume and then blamed by an angered (anger is a negative reaction to an unexpected development. you don't go into a rage when something you've planned goes exactly as you thought it wouuld) gawd, and kicked out.

Said deity is insecure enough to go rather petty with the 'do's and don'ts' too, including worship of other gawds, etc. And it cannot do anything against as simple a tech as iron chariots.

What we're left with, at the very best, if we really REALLY need to worship something, is an extradimensional intern that accidentally made a universe, and threw fit after fit when the life forms in there didn't follow his half-drunken-written hypothesis. We haven't seen him since he created this universe because he got expelled, and simply never emptied his locker.

This is no more or less sensical than what the bible tells us.

>>7085844
That just makes you a Calvinist.
No one is going to try to convince you otherwise, but if you already have your mind set then there's not much point in engaging in a debate over it.

>>7085842
"we are not always the best planner"
now proceed to do as >>7085783 said and climb the Charsis

>>7085842
Scratch that, we have impressed him by containing our bodily fluids, just as planned. Tell him we want to get some answers from the mage. Things dont add up, turn his suspicion from you to another

>>7085842
Take nothing for granted; we have little idea on what is happening, and all or none of what the man said may be true.

Can we remember a name for ourselves? It'd be rude not to return the gesture of exchanging names.

>>7085841
Oh man I fucking love unintelligent design.

"Look at this dog. Fucking look at him. He throws up, then eats the vomit. Then does it again. Evolution could not have produced a creature this stupid. The only way I can find of justifying existence is that God exists, and he is incredibly retarded."

>>7085883
>>7084712
Our name is Sha'een

>>7085663
>You mean "with the capacity to be evil." That is inherent to free will.
he didn't, if you read genesis. He punished them for it actually.

And what part of free will covers a murder?
It's the dudes free will to want to murder, but why allow it to happen? As god he could even let the murder think he murdered in an illusory world for murderers if that's the case.

Pants on head retarded.

>>7085912
Thanks. Forgive me, I am afflicted with the dumb tonight.

And OP? If we don't see Charsis again, I will be very sad. You don't want to make people sad, right?

>>7085938
I too will be sad. Also I would be adopting a "researcher ___" name if I weren't going to bed.

>>7085868
I'm not sure where to start with this... It goes back to
>>7085860
You're not so much interested in bettering your understanding of the human condition as you are with going "DOHOHO HOW UNENLIGHTENED."
Ironically, exactly as some Christfags might do the same to you.
You're merely stooping the their level.

Now, as a response, I would say that not all Christian sects believe in using "Heaven or Hell" as the motivator to do the right thing.
In particular, the largest denomination (51-57% of Christians are Roman Catholics) rather espouses the belief that good should be committed for its own sake, rather than just TO AVOID damnation (as many Pentecostal and Baptist churches teach).

>>7085955
Good night. If you see a dude in huge armor with a 15' scythe, don't worry. It's just us checking in on your dreams.

Just realized that sounded ever-so-slightly creepy. I can only sat that it wasn't intended to.

>espouses the belief that good should be committed for its own sake

This is just basic human conscience and exists independent of religion. Besides, the very fact that they are Catholic means they have already accepted the offer they can't refuse.

>>7085955
sleep well researcher

until we met again...

>>7085916
>>You mean "with the capacity to be evil." That is inherent to free will.
>he didn't, if you read genesis. He punished them for it actually.

I'm not sure what your point is, here; that God did not create man with the capacity for free will? That's clearly not true, as it was their actions with the tree of knowledge clearly exhibit free will.

Further, the Tree of Knowledge itself may be viewed as a metaphor for man's coming of age, evolutionarily speaking. Prior to man's self-realization, he lived in blissful ignorance as, and with, the animals. When he "ate from the tree of knowledge", he suddenly began capable of putting two and two together, and gained the CAPACITY for intentional good and evil- much more so than a monkey or dog can do.

And yes, I know, both sides are going to hate me for *GASP* combining a Deity and evolution in the same theory!

I already know I'm a heretic, what of it.

Re: name>>7084712

You return your name as you wander a little ways towards CHARSISXV17. He is hovering 4 meters (12 feet) in the air and cannot be reached.

Magus Kessler enters the depths of the pool, carrying two thin unadorned cotton robes. He addresses you both.
"Those who question and ponder shall do well here. This world is built entirely from our collective will to pursue the truth- and suspicion is a prudence not always found in our petitioners."

Kessler hands a robe to Raiz and moves on to you, beneath CHARSIS, handing you a robe as well.

"If you remain here, you will return to the death from which CHARSISXV17 has brought you. We must open these gates soon so that he may return to the nether-world to reclaim lost souls who desire truth. It would be a waste of the gift CHARSISXV17 has afforded you- to preserve your identity from dissolving into the background of the ether stream and being incarnated a thousand times over 1 monadic shard at a time."

>>7086034
>basic human conscience and exists independent of religion
Exactly.
You have a very argumentative personality- you seem to be acting as though you are under attack by Christfags or something.
Are there a lot of idiot Christians where you live? Thankfully, most of the ones where I live are downright reasonable.

((hmm... it appears my constituents are heading to bed. How appropriate you chose the name researchers- all too appropriate in a world of truth. I will resume this story at a later date then, at a similar time I suspect.))

>>7086101

That was actually my first post in this thread.

I put on my robe and wizard hat

>>7086104
If you must, I will continue to ponder. Good night unfathomable occurance

>>7086104
Awww, just when it was getting good, too. Well, good night everyone. I hope to see part 2 sometime soon. This has been fun, if a bit slow to start.

>>7085656

Like I said, the Free Will argument pretty much amounts to putting an ant in an antlion trap, then declaring that if the ant dies, it dies solely of its own fault. For starters, it certainly wasn't a simplistic choice on the ant's part to either die or escape - escape means struggling through an environment hostile to the very idea, and only a few ants even have the inherent strength to accomplish this. More importantly, the being placing this ant in the ant-trap has the audacity to absolve himself of all responsibility for the fate of the ant, in addition to making the absurd claims that leveling out the ant-trap beforehand to enable a simple choice between life and death is impossible, and that placing the ant in a friendly, supportive colony instead is a violation of the ant's right to be killed.

((Actually, I could finish up this scene if you're willing to remain awake. Just respond to my last post with Magus Kessler- I presumed both of you were going to bed- I'll be up for a couple more hours))

>>7086175
But... so... wait, the ant-lion trap is our life?
And getting eating is committing evil?

That seems to stretch of an analogy
Unless you're saying that committing evil is preferable or more common in our world than good, in which case, that's just like, your opinion, man, that the glass is half-empty instead of half-full.

We aren't going anywhere if you're not, OP.

>>7086246
Excellent! I for one could go on for another hour or so with ease.

Let's put on the robe and follow the Magus.

>>7085358
oh why hello there, are we implying that god does not intervene in human affairs here? this is the exact opposite ideology of Christianity here.

In regards to OP's pic. Atheism is just as ill informed as the most evangelical of Christians and shows hubris in equivalence to the Christians. I can't even begin to know so I choose Agnosticism! :D The scientific spiritual belief!

As you turn to leave, Magus Kessler stops and turns to look back at you and CHARSIS. "...I... don't suppose you feel any particular gratitude towards CHARSIS, do you? This will be your last chance to speak to him- you will not see him again unless you manage your way to my profession, which may be a millennium at best. If you feel you have anything at all to say to him... now is the time."

>>7086175

Thinking about it further, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the idea that Free Will is paramount in the existence of humanity only works if mankind is first free from coercion towards either good or evil - and, our world being as it is, the arbitrary demands of sustenance, survival, and comfort, and their arbitrary scarcity, drive us unfairly towards evil, rendering the idea of human "free will" flawed at best, and hypocritical at worse.

Thread archived on sup/tg/
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/7084314/

>>7086341
"Goodbye Azzy. I will not soon forget you."

Yes, I wish to actually call him Azzy.

Is this still active? I've been out.

>>7086341
A nickname very well could leave a lasting impact on a construct, I approve of Azzy

Well, I need to head off to bed myself. Wish the board hadn't gone wonky and prevented posting, might have gotten more done. But enough griping.

Goodnight everyone.