Also, here's a pic of that glorious bastard admiral Zheng He, explores africa and doesn't afraid of anything.

goddam that is a big ship for the time period

>>6739025

Well, here's a question. What dynasty do you want to rule China? Looking at your setting, it seems like you're going for Ming dynasty. So expect lots and lots of guns and cannons from the Chinese troops.

>>6739084
Ming definitely, since the emperor at the time was the one backing Zheng He, and after he died the whole expedition thing fell apart. So perhaps if he hadn't died and the Chinese hadn't been so radically isolationist they would have tried to expand or at least trade with the cultures they found.

>>6739126

China was pretty open in trade and culture to every countries they found under Ming dynasty. They even allowed Portuguese to build a trading outpost in China. The one dynasty that turns China into isolationist and stagnating country will be Qing dynasty which is the last dynasty in Imperial Chinese history.

So even if he is still alive....I doubt he is going to be treated well since Qing officials cared Manchu more than other ethnics in China.

Sounds like something you'd see in a game of Europa Universalis.

As for your question how the European will react when they saw Chinese settlements. I'm guessing they were pretty much expected. Lots of countries in those period fear China. Even in trade, Europeans have no choice but to trade under Chinese conditions while Europeans have no say in it.

So really, finding Chinese settlements in America is just like British finding Spanish settlements in America. China will just be regarded as another empire from the East.

>>6739126
On the other hand, the mandarins in the bureaucracy absolutely hated the trade and exploration, since they saw it as a threat to their power; the fact that the eunuchs (their chief rivals in court politics) were in charge of the treasure fleets didn't help. So the instant they get a good excuse to close China off and turn back the clock, they will.

Also, China was running out of local wood and other supplies to build their ships with, and was wasting a shit-ton of money on things like trying to conquer Annam (northern Vietnam), trying to subdue the Mongols, building the Forbidden City, and then rebuilding the Forbidden City when a lightning strike started a fire that burned most of it down.

So what seems more likely is that the Chinese colonies might get enough time to get themselves established and self-sustaining, but then China cuts them off and turns inward as per OTL. So now you have a whole bunch of Chinese colonies developing on their own on the Pacific coasts of North and South America. Which might actually be even more interesting.

>>6739329

So.....basically you get another Japan and Taiwan and Singapore faster in the world?

Is that an accurate picture? Damn.

>>6739329
Multiple Chinese states does sound more interesting and realistic than my original idea.

>>6739385

It is. The treasure ship was that big.

>>6739411
To really add to the fun, expect that if the Ming do eventually go under to Manchu invasion, at least some of the refugees are going to try to flee to the "lost" colonies far to their east as the Qing overrun them. By "refugees" I mean people rich or valuable enough to be stuffed on boats and sent away from Qing control; the poor are of course still fucked.

>>6739329
Leaving out the lightning strike and focusing on exploration/settlement rather than invading Annam could be a good forking point.
Time the Discovery right and it would be a simple choice of larger land that is largely unsettled vs fighting to invade and rule people that rather you died.

have history diverge somewhere in the Mind dynasty and not get derped over by stupid politics and bad leaders

also read 1412: The Year China Discovered the World and possibly 1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and Ignited the Renaissance by Gavin Menzies

>>6739499
So it'll be like Battlestar Galactica?

How will the chinese have interacted with the natives, including the empires of south america?

The farthest flung of the Chinese colonies would have broken off and declared independence fairly quickly once another emperor ascended.

The only real change that would have happened is that the Chinese would have installed their Confucian bureaucracy wherever they went, so for example when the spaniards showed up at the Philippines they would have had an organized nation-state to deal with there instead of a tribal proto-state

But if you want to reverse the inward-looking decay you'd also have to say that the europeans would never have been able to win trade concessions and the opium wars would never have happened, in which case there would likely have been a world war 1 with china aligned with germany and an actual war on a global scale

>>6739025The premise for this setting would be that the Chinese never lost interest in long-range sea exploration due to economic problems caused by inflation or Confucian ideology. The Chinese has conquered a large portion of South Eastern Asia, the Philippines, various pacific islands, and they are now running begining to stake out pieces of territory on the western coast of the Americas.

AUSTRALIA IS FARMLAND

KANGAROO TAIL SOUP

WALLABY SKEWERS

IT WILL BE DELICIOUS

>>6741900But if you want to reverse the inward-looking decay you'd also have to say that the europeans would never have been able to win trade concessions and the opium wars would never have happened, in which case there would likely have been a world war 1 with china aligned with germany and an actual war on a global scale


China, with Japan, Korea, and Phillipines, ally with Germany to fight off the Americans, British, French, and Russians

OP is a noob:

Here's a list of fucking Chinese inventions and weaponry which they can use (and I'm not making this up):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_inventions

- tear gas
- multi-stage rockets
- guns
- land mines
- naval mines
- flamethrowers
- cannons
- SUPERIOR NAVAL TECH just FOR TEH LULZ!

It would be pretty much ownage for the Europeans if the two societies ended up fighting with each other. Good thing they didn't have any imperialistic thoughts at that time though or the white man would've been seriously fucked..

>>6739084

Actually, the Chinese were at their greatest heights during the Song Dynasty. Too bad (or good?) they traded military effectiveness for order in their empire or the world would've been seriously fucked if they somehow went berserk and suddenly had this desire to "HURRR, OWN EVERYTHING WITH OUR SUPERIOR TECH.HURRR!!"

>>6741866How will the chinese have interacted with the natives, including the empires of south america?

Make contact with their royalty, give "gifts" of whatever stuff they've got in exchange for "tribute" (trade for raw materials)

Record as much as they can about the South Americans, return to the Mainland with that information.

Settle peacefully, eventually take over local businesses because goddamn Chinese businessmen

>>6741912

More like a boat would accidentally bring some animal from Australia as they were fleeing the terrifying wildlife and it would end up breeding, and the species would eventually kill every main lander in all of Europe, Africa, and Asia.

Australia is fucking terrifying. LIKE A BOSS.

Well, the Ming Dynasty fell when a civil war broke out, and Beijing was under siege. Manchus offered to help the Ming dynasty, but afterwards went "lol we're ruling now" and established Qing.

With colonial expansions... either you can have the Ming flee into a colony, or the rebellion occurs in the colonies in the first place.

Just looking at the wind currents, it seems like most of the settling would be going on in northern areas, like Canada and areas north of California. So the first people they'd meet are going to be Inuits, Eskimos, Aleuts, etc., who look fairly Asian, and would probably be accepted more easily than other races, i.e. incorporated, rather than subjugated, maybe.

The problem with the Chinese attitude during the Renaissance is they expected people to come to them, rather than they to the other people. It wasn't called the Middle Kingdom for nothing: they were in the middle of everything, and the rest of those fuckers have to come to you. Kind of like fa/tg/uys.

This topic is badass, by the way.

>>6741944
Bitches don't know about China's unbelievably poor history of force projection.

>>6741982Australia is fucking terrifying. LIKE A BOSS.

the Chinese sailors would put it in a bottle and drink it.

we would live in a world where California and Hawaii are full of Asians

O WAIT

3-eyed gun

>>6742000

They'd try, but they'd get a cigarette snail out of the water, and die fucking instantly, or that jellyfish off the north coast that's basically invisible and kills in less than a minute.

Snakes and scorpions are fucking smalltime, you can control snakes with a flute. Any whiny french bitch can play a flute.

>>6741997
An inability to perform when outside the jurisdiction of the Bureaucracy would be the cause, of course.

This would greatly affect the history of Japan. An active Chinese navy engaging in trade means a Japan that never isolates itself from the mainland. Japan would either be forcibly conquered, or treaties worked out for Chinese ships to dock on their journey over the ocean into the east.

piracy would flourish even greater with all this sea trade.

<-- picture is a navy repeating heavy crossbow

>>6741997

For that read here:

>>6741957

Chinese military would've been effective were it not for stupid politics of the Song Dynasty.

>>6742020They'd try, but they'd get a cigarette snail out of the water, and die fucking instantly, or that jellyfish off the north coast that's basically invisible and kills in less than a minute.

that is more reason for a Chinese guy to eat it.

>>6742053
That's akin to saying that a spoon would be better at cutting things if it were long and sharp.

jellyfish

>>6742050
>greatly affect

more like Japan would have been made China's bitch, as opposed to what actually happened

The chinese had 300 years to modernize after major contact with the west, and utterly failed to do so because the empire was rotting

>>6742060

No, they would try to live, but eventually the boats would be found by the aboriginals and there would be nothing but corpses aboard.

>>6742075

they were the world's largest economy, highest GDP, and more silver than anyone else. China was prosperous up until british drug dealers showed up.

China's problem was that, there was no visible problem for them.

>>6742020

There's always enough of us chinese, what's a dead person if it teaches us a lesson?

But I've thought of this before. It would be interesting if the native americans were confucianised... though, given that most of the diseases the Europeans brought to the Americas were brought to them by China, where they were endemic, I don't have high hopes for the survival rates for the Amerindians.

kangaroo tail is all cartilage, that's good for soup right?

ITT bitches don't know about High Level Equilibrium Trap.

But bitches COULD!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_level_equilibrium_trap

>>6742091
None of which mattered when they failed to expand and create a trade empire, failed to capitalize on western inventions/technology and improve them (instead writing them off as 'not the chinese way hurrrr'), then repeatedly losing battles and wars while constantly claiming imperial superiority

The Qing Manchus were symbolic of the rot that had pervaded the country starting immediately after the Tang

>>6742108But I've thought of this before. It would be interesting if the native americans were confucianised... though, given that most of the diseases the Europeans brought to the Americas were brought to them by China, where they were endemic, I don't have high hopes for the survival rates for the Amerindians.

I think China was more aware of personal hygiene at that time period, and an awareness of how diseases spread.

>>6739038
He was also an eunuch, but did he let that get in the way of his badass? NOOOOOOOOOOO.

>>6742116
Calling bullshit on that. Scarcity of resources existed and chinamen are industrious and intelligent enough to know that improving productivity yields rewards

The crippling effects of the bureaucracy and ineffective emperors with their heads in the clouds over the 'infinite majesty of the Middle Kingdom' doomed the country, especially when a great number of Chinese left the rot and migrated stateside

>>6742127He was also an eunuch, but did he let that get in the way of his badass? NOOOOOOOOOOO.

They cut off the shaft, but left the balls :l

>>6742120

That's the problem with late imperial China. But the early Ming, if you ask me, could still have avoided that problem.

Or at least the problem of non-expansion; they did completely destroy the Northern Yuan and take Vietnam for decades.

>>6742066

You don't make sense. The Chinese military were the best in the world during that time. As I have said before, the Song Dynasty limited their military effectiveness so there's little chance of military takeover within their Empire.

I can't blame them, the 3 Warring Kingdoms period in Chinese history would be sufficient to convince them to trade their military power for a bit of peace and order. Despite that, it took the Mongols and other hostile neighboring tribes almost 200 years to overrun the Song Dynasty despite their ineffectiveness..that right there tells you something!

>>6742138
On a side note this is why many chinamen don't hate on the PRC despite them being scum sucking commies who rule with a velvet fist

because quite frankly the PRC has done more than 400 generations of moldy trash emperors have done and the bureaucracy is less all encompassing at this point in time than it has been since roughly 500 BCE

I believe in God, because China fucking up this badly and europeans getting to where they are now could only be an act of God, a God that hates Asians.

>>6742142
I'm afraid not. Chinese castration was complete.

>>6742138
See, the problem is that the Sea Ban that the Ming Dynasty imposed was overly effective. If it had not been effective, then the inefficiencies you point out would have forced traders, deprived of a livelihood, to move far abroad. Even to America.

>>6742127

Protip: Zhang He was also Muslim.
Bet you didn't see that one coming.
The world would be a very different place if China had continued (or hell, not completely cancelled) the missions of the Treasure Fleets. The mandarins hated them, because they were a large resource drain at first, and the first voyages had very high ship losses.

However, once the Chinese worked out the routes, they could have sailed very safely indeed. It is a shame they went isolationist.

>>6742138
Ahno. The main reason the Industrial Revolution never indigenous occurred in China was because of the incredibly efficient and organized and labor-intensive process for farming. Rice is difficult to plant and harvest mechanically, and you can see the same thing happening in the American South in the 1800s--labor heavy economy doesn't want to change because essentially a lot of people lose their jobs and shit's working fine already.

>>6742181The world would be a very different place if China had continued (or hell, not completely cancelled) the missions of the Treasure Fleets. The mandarins hated them, because they were a large resource drain at first, and the first voyages had very high ship losses.

And all records were destroyed on purpose. So we have no idea how profitable they could have been, or where they went, whether or not they did reach the new world, etc.

Chinese were simultaneously the most brilliant and aggressively retarded culture to ever be remembered by history.

ITT we all show off our Asian Studies skills

>>6742190
Its 3 am and I don't feel like cracking open the textbooks, but I attribute it moreso to the chinese never actually using foreign tech. Remember, the industrial revolution consisted of piles of people stealing ideas from each other over 50 years to figure out the best and most efficient ways of doing things

The chinese just flat out rejected foreign tech not because 'what we have is good enough' but 'CHINA ALWAYS SUPERIOR TO WESTERN WE ARE MIDDLE KINGDOM UNDER HEAVEN' cultural superiority bullshit

>>6742190

The industrial revolution happened because of one single factor - SCIENCE! What made it possible was the combustion engine, a true breakthrough and from there the British decided to use it in their industrial applications, thus increasing the production frontier of their empire.

the Chinese had already something similar working, they had these HUGE mechanical devices that helped them in increasing their production capabilities. The only difference is that instead of using the combustion engine, they used wind, water, human and animal power.

If the Empire had stumbled upon the combustion engine earlier, God knows what could've happened!

>>6742181
Actually, I knew that. Muslims in China generally keep their heads low, and they're pretty much the same as other Chinese people. Apart from all of the Islamic taboos.

The general problem the Chinese dynasties had was that they governed a land that was TOO FUCKING HUGE. Over time, the emperors left their ministers to do everything while they indulged in whatever it is emperors indulge in, and Chinese people being Chinese people, corruption soon comes in.

>>6742209
As a chinaman and card carrying member of the KMT I'm kind of obligated to know the history of the motherland

>>6742228

I don't think we're talking about the same period here. If we're talking about Zheng He, the Europeans were still mucking around and dying en masse of plague. So you do have a point, but it's not relevant here.

isn't when the Chinese change dynasties the new rulers went like:"DESTROY ALL PAST DYNASTY WORKS, FOR IT STANDS FOR ALL EVIL WE DESTROYED"

>>6742199

I know, damn those Mandarins! They could have at least kept the cargo records, and just destroyed the plans for the ships and charts of the routes they took.......

But hey ho. The Chinese rarely did things in half measures.

>>6742238
I don't know what that is, but I suspect it makes you a communist.

>>6742228

That's a lot of utter crap, Greek Fire was used by the Chinese in their dealing with the Arabian Peninsula during the time.

Greek Fire =/= Chinese invention

But they did improve it by inventing the double-pump flamethrower though. The Chinese also had outside influence, especially when you think about the Buddhist religion making it into their kingdom.

The only reason China stagnated was because of stupid politics and with the Manchus purposely suppressing anything that can threaten their power, and that includes progress in science and technology

>>6739025My question is this /tg/, how would European empires react to finding Chinese settlements across the western coast of America and across the pacific?

Well, europeans only started treating everyone else like shit in the age of enlightenment, so...
look at Marco Polo, giant weeaboo going on about how awesum and superior Cathay was. If China was really just as awesome as his stories, and even more, then the view on China would be a positive one.

>>What kind of tech would the Chinese be using? (other than their fucking huge ships, pic related)

cannons, bombs, brigandine and star scale armor. crossbows and bows are still the mainstay.

they also had interesting combined arms units

ex: two sword+shieldmen, two entangling polearm users, two spear users, one unit leader made up a "mandarin duck squad" (nickname as they are to be inseperable, like mandarin ducks are said to be)
The shieldmen defend, the polearm users use multipronged polearms to catch and entangle enemies and control their movement, the spearmen strike, the leader leads and directs. Full D&D party dynamics was part of the ming military.

>>6742252

Actually no, they were often all too glad to take over some of the legacies. You can't delegitimise the dynasty you claim legitimate descent from.

>>Actually, I knew that. Muslims in China generally keep their heads low, and they're pretty much the same as other Chinese people. Apart from all of the Islamic taboos.

they make REALLY FUCKING DELICIOUS NOODLES and kebabs

I love chinese muslims

>>6742230
No, it wasn't SCIENCE! it was God. Belief in the almighty and the desire to work out the laws of His glorious Creation fueled the Industrial Revolution.

>>6742269
I meant for example when like the Chin was replaced with another family(no relation, like some peasant revolt), wasn't their legacy destroyed by the ones replacing them or I'm just confused

>>6742250
Oh if you're talking about golden age and the possibility of first millenium revolution, then yeah, sounds about right. Also keep in mind that the chinese system of education was extremely poor - the industrial revolution was preceded by the Enlightenment, which wouldn't have happened without the Ancient Philosophers period. The greco-roman natural philosophers wrote a pile of shit. The enlightenment philosophers and scientists questioned it and began forming a sense of what is 'real', and science turned into engineering in the industrial revolution. All of this happened because wealthy patrons paid for these kinds of things, with natural philosophy being actively pursued and supported by an educated aristocracy that wanted to be more educated.

As opposed to chinese civil service exams where the only thing you needed to know was how to do your part in the gears of bureaucracy and where the aristocracy only cared about bullshit political infighting

>>6742287

the difference between Europeans and the heathen chinese was God

look at where they are now.

>>6742262
The chinese already had naptha.

>>6742259
The KMT fought the commies for 60 years before things settled down and they curled up to brood so no, that's 100% off the mark

>Well, europeans only started treating everyone else like shit in the age of enlightenment, so...

During the age of enlightement, china was the new persia though. Plenty of intellectuals raged endlessly about how china was a culturally superior example of benige absolute autorcracy.

>look at Marco Polo, giant weeaboo going on about how awesum and superior Cathay was. If China was really just as awesome as his stories, and even more, then the view on China would be a positive one.

Marco polo has problaby never been to china though. His tales are the compiled tales of a dozend other travellers.

>>6742266

Not to mention smoke bombs, tear gas, flares, naval mines, land mines, cannons, rockets, multi-stage rockets and SUPERIOR TECH IN EVERY WAY IMAGINABLE JUST FOR TEH LULZ!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_inventions

I'd imagine the Europeans screaming in fear when they encounter an effective Chinese Army. Too bad the Chinese treated military effectiveness like shit or they could've easily conquered the world during that time..

>>6742296the industrial revolution was preceded by the Enlightenment, which wouldn't have happened without the Ancient Philosophers period

I figure Europe getting all the accumulated knowledge, philosophy and technology of Asia was the reason for the enlightenment happening. Not so much the greeks.

>>6742228
The Industrial Revolution was piles of people stealing from one another, but all of those ideas came from Europe, which is geographically smaller (if you don't include Russia and Turkey) than China. One province of China can be as radically different from another as one country in Europe is from another. That's to say, the whole of China is as similar and as different as Europe.

So, even without "foreign tech," China theoretically COULD have broken out of the high-level equilibrium trap, but probably wouldn't have just by sheer chance. Had rice not been a staple crop, or the country had been broken up into competing individual nation-states, etc.

>>6742320
That too, but a foundation in natural philosophy, logic, and analytic thinking from the greeks also played a huge role in it.

As opposed to chinese confucian philosophy taken as the word of god and no further research being made on the matter

>>6742311Marco polo has problaby never been to china though. His tales are the compiled tales of a dozend other travellers.


even so, he gave the popular opinion.

even wrote that, unlike the uncouth citizens of venice, chinese did not spit on the floor

lol...

>>6742336
Funny thing about that, the chicoms in beijing had to be trained not to spit on the ground pre-Olympics

>>6742341

the China of today is not the China 400+ years ago. Different culture, different people, who happen to be on the same land.

like how italians are not Romans, and greasy greeks are not philosophizin greeks.

>>6742296
Oh wow. You think the Chinese education system was shit, when you compare it to how things worked in Europe? The average literacy rate in China was much higher than in Europe, and that was BECAUSE of the civil service system. In fact, civil service was relatively egalitarian, whereas education in Europe up until the mid- to late-1500s was almost entirely dependent upon being a monk, which was a decidedly unpleasant career choice for most of the nobility.

So, not really.

So, ITT what if Chinese were like Europeans?

>>6742354
I'm not doing a direct time comparison. There was no education system in the dark shit ages.

But the civil service education system did little to promote innovation. The Enlightenment did in about 100 years what the Chinese could not do in 1500 - force a re-examining of basic tenets (ex: the 4 humours theory of Galen being replaced by proper anatomy). The Chinese never, ever did this, which was a colossal failing on the part of their educational system.

How would Europe react to this? Let's assume that Spain still goes down the shitter and still funds Columbus on a desperate last-ditch effort to be awesome again.

Spain's expansion effort in the New World was mostly because they were in need of money to fund their wars back home. China's differing attitudes and situation would make for a slower expansion in the New World.

Let's say they first colonize the OTL Seattle area, and set up a couple of colonies in California, one in Mexico, and another in Alaska before the shit hits the fan on the mainland. I'm going to call Alaska lost, since it's frickin' cold up there and without a supply line to the mainland they're SOL. The Mexican colony too, but to a lesser extent due to the fact that they probably still have diseases to wipe out the Aztecs and Tlaxcalans. Given that the remaining three colonies are more or less cut off rather than gaining their own independence, the situation would likely be tense between the colonies.

By the time Spain arrives in Central America in 1519, the Chinese will have already severely impacted the indigenous peoples. Cortez had 300 men with him, and probably didn't have much information about the Chinese presence in the area; he probably would've gotten his ass sent back to Haiti.

Of course, since the Panama Isthmus is farther south than the Aztecs or the Tlaxcalas, and presumably the Chinese, South America still goes to Spain, while North America, it seems, goes to China.

hey hammerknife, what traditional games do they play in Taiwan?

>>6742367
There was so an education system in the "dark ages." It was called the Church, and it actually did a hell of a lot. In fact, the product of Medieval era scholarship was a rediscovery of the lost Classical literature, and most of that was borrowed from the Arabs. Most of that Classical literature was then incorporated into religious doctrine.

Maybe the issue was that the Chinese did not sufficiently borrow from the Arab world from the 1000s to the 1300s like the Europeans did. A lot of European ideas about scientific method come from there.

Chinese cuisine would've had a few 100 extra years to work with all the crops and critters from the new world and australia

so a good thing for food.

>>6742394
I honestly don't think the Chinese would be very interested in moving southward. They'd probably make landfall in the north and call it a day, so it's unlikely they'd be searching for gold in the south. Not to mention that the western coast of Mexico is mountainous as fuck all.

>>6742401
There was academic research going on, limited to the church. This does not make for an actual educational system like the one that appeared in the enlightenment (wealthy families hiring personal philosophers to tutor and educate kids, in order to spread knowledge), as knowledge did not 'spread' all that well during the feudal age

>>6742432

well once you're there, might as well poke around.


Did most sailors come from northern or southern China?
Maybe they'd settle in areas that remind them of home.

rocket powered hang gliders

we would have Chinese speaking europeans posting on sichan about a hypothetical what if China was isolated and europe conquered the americas alone

The problem with the assumption here is that you'd have to tear away many of the factors and issues that made China China in order to make this work.

And that is assuming that the magnitude of the Treasure Fleets was as legend had it and not overblown to high heaven like most things about Chinese myth-history turn out to be.

>>And that is assuming that the magnitude of the Treasure Fleets was as legend had it and not overblown to high heaven like most things about Chinese myth-history turn out to be.

like finding an entire replica army buried underground

or the existance of a legendary dynasty from 5,000 years ago

>>6742209
A pretty girl like that with him? There must be a reason, blackmail? Threats? I wonder what?

>>6742543

Prostitution is a wonderful thing.

>>6742543

She thinks he's hot shit for some reason. Could be any of a hundred different reasons. learn2humanbeings.

>>6742543

he has a wonderful personality

>>6741992

Comparing this to the prevailing wind pattern, I have to ask: How the hell did the puritans end up in massachusetts? The ocean currents and winds seem to want things to move away from there.

One would assume that a handful of these fuckers would own the medieval European Ass

>>6742446
Mostly South.
>>6742543
Probably the son of some local Party head or rich businessman.

>>6742612

God did it

>>6742616

Mongols here.

Shut up and bend over.

>>6742396
Hell if I know. Taiwan sucks. I live in socal

>>6742612
That's a good question. I honestly have no fucking idea. It's a very real possibility that my map was shit. After all, I'm no climatologist.

>>6742637
Hungary called, get that weak shit out of here.

>The industrial revolution happened because of one single factor - SCIENCE! What made it possible was the combustion engine, a true breakthrough and from there the British decided to use it in their industrial applications, thus increasing the production frontier of their empire.

I have to look it up, but such as it seems, waterwheels and horsepower played a ways more important role in getting the industrial revolution underway than steam power. Steam engines took over, indeed, but only after the ground had been well-prepared, flattened and track been layed. Symbolically speaking.

>as knowledge did not 'spread' all that well during the feudal age

Frankly, the problem was not that technical knowledge would not spread but rather that it would not trickle down to any significant number of people. Sorta like money today.

>>6742646
And you're a member of the KMT?

Ah well, I'm a member of the General German Workers' Association, but it's all cool bro.

>>6742637

Kublai Khan here, the Chinese are our brothers. Let's become the very people we have conquered. Now shut the fuck up you brainless tribes and bend over for our superior Chinese overlords..

Not to mention it took us almost 200 years to conquer their ineffective armies..

>>6742673

Anybody with some hills, forests and swamps could beat the Mongols.

Sad but true, they are a bit overhyped.

>>6742684
Hoho, I like this guy. The jab at the end made it worth reading.

But really, you should've ignored that guy's post before. I refuted it with the God argument already, so it's all good.

>>6742689

Takes a long time to kill all those Chinese, man.

Didn't they end up depopulating China? Like, 60+ million people killed?

That qualifies as "ass kicking" in my book.

>>6742689
Rome here. What the fuck is a China?

>>6742709
SCENARIO!

CHINESE EMPIRE VENTURES WEST, MEETS ROMANS, TRADE ENSUES!

WHAT HAPPENS?

>>6742761
EVERYTHING THAT WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN FOR THAT TO WORK IS MORE INTERESTING THAN THE RESULT.

>>6742761WHAT HAPPENS?

Chinese restaurants open all over roman empire.

>>6742761

Romans go: "DELICIOUS SLAVES AND TREASURE AND TERRITORY OM NOM NOM NOM"

And then China was Roman.

>>6742709
Remember where Alexander the Great went, and then stopped? If he'd gone a little bit further East, he'd be Alexander the Fucking Awesome.

>>6742761
Parthians defeated to get rid of the middlemen.

>>6742773
EXPLAIN, PLEASE

>>6742761
First they have to go through Asia, which is a whole can of worms in and of itself. Then, they have to go through Egypt, and then through Greece. I find it doubtful that these are all going to happen.

>>6742783

Parthians kicked the ass of the romans though, not gonna happen

>>6742761

Actually, Romans ventured East and traded in China. Chinese are as mobile and vibrant as a paraplegic.

>>6742786
Penetrating Asia is like stabbing a two inch knife through a hippo. It simply can't be done unless you mobilize your entire civilization and go to war, like the arabs and the mongols did. For China to actually manage that would be an insurmountable feat, and if they did actually succeed they would be faced with Egypt, which would probably absorb most of the trade and go superpower again. If Egypt is Rome's bitch by this point, then that's that, but...

>>6742794
Actually, to get things started, all that would have to initiate it would be the furthest reaches of China's empire meeting the furthest reaches of the Roman empire.

"What? You mean there's a Rome over there full of short yellow guys?"

"What? You mean there's a China over there full of greasy white guys?"

>>6742709

East of Parthia. You may know it as Seres or Serica, but that is in fact only the very edge of that country.

>>6742802
Actually, Rome came back later and beat the shit out of Parthia. But Parthia was dirt poor, and everything further on looked poorer, so they didn't press the issue.

>>6742834

Imperial Russia here.

Penetrating Asia like a cheap whore.

>>6742862

but russia is asian

is russia penetrating itself?

>>6742862
That's really more vindicating than anything else. Russia is the bear that got to the party last.

>>6742875
It only starts being chinky once you cross the Urals, son.

>>6742709

Roman had been trading with the Han dynasty. You know.

>>6742761

No.

32 BC- The Civil War in Parthia completely fucks their shit up, instead of ending in 25 BC. Rome mops up the mess, turns Persia Roman, Meets with China as they travel along the Silk Road.

>>6742915
You'd be alarmed at how easily you can trade with somebody and not know who the hell they were. Pan-Asiatic trade was pretty boss like that.

>>6742862

Japan says fuck you.

>>6742930
REMEMBER PORT ARTHUR.

>>6742920
THEN WHAT HAPPENS?

>>6742937
...Trade? Nothing interesting, at least not until the Empire breaks up and suddenly GOD DAMMIT EVERYONE IS ROMAN OH GOD.

>>6742952
WHY ARE THERE ROADS EVERYWHERE?

>>6742952
EXPLAIN IT BETTER PLEASE?

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE WORLD TODAY BECAUSE OF EXPANSIVE CHINESE/ROMAN TRADE?

If the Chinese and Roman empires both traded at significant levels, would one of their empires collapsing cause alarm for the other?

Would Rome falling signal China to change how they do things or to get contingencies? Vice versa?

>>6742962

WHAT HAPPENS IS ROMA AETERNA, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS

>>6742971
Yeah. With Rome having a stranglehold on the most profitable trade route on the planet, I doubt the Empire would ever really fall, because they wouldn't have to worry about the fucking turks. Sure, the Arabic crusade might be a bit of a bitch, but this is Rome we're talking about, not the middling eastern states. My bet is Islam never takes a real hold in Asia, and we skip the Crusade. Everybody speaks Greek or Latin in Europe, and... Egh. I'd rather not think about it.

>>6742777

If Alexander went any further, he would be pretty much fucking dead.

>>6743000
He did drop dead almost immediately after turning around, yes, so I guess it's just as well he didn't keep going. Nobody wants to be leaderless on a conquest.

Taking this a step further, China and Rome enter into extensive trading with each other, which in turns leads to more that immense wealth for both, which in turn leads to them becoming defensive allies in order to protect their respective cash cows.

WHAT HAPPENS!?

>>6743038
Rome keeps Expanding in every direction, because that was what Rome did. Without the Turks there to fuck their shit up, Rome grows steadily more ridiculously fuckhuge until eventually everything west of Mesopotamia collapses and leaves the Asian equivalent of the Byzantine Empire behind.

>>6743092
And then what happens?

>>6743132
With the collapse of Rome, Europe enters a perpetual state of civil war not unlike what we saw in Europe during... The rest of history.
The difference is that because the renaissance was triggered by an influx of intellectuals from Byzantium into Italy after the fall of Constantinople... And this never happens... Well, we don't get a renaissance.

>>6743132

Romans steal China. And kill everyone.

>>6743157
And THEN what happens?

Just keep building on it man, this is getting interesting.

>>6743157
Rome collapsing and there being no Renaissance, how does this affect China and it's place in the world?

For one thing, the increase in trade would have altered the economic situation in the mideast, meaning the jews might not have rebelled in judaea. Probably, the Mideast would have a sizable Jewish minority, instead of Europe.

On the other hand, I can't seem to find any evidence that suggests an expansion of the empire would have prevented the crisis of the third century, and the larger size would have probably made the whole situation much worse. Roman Empire splits in the 250s-ish, and Diocletian fails to reunite it. Instead, it splits into the Eastern Empire at Seleucia, the Western Empire at Rome, and the Central Empire at probably Alexandria or something.

>>6743179
You know how the Mongols went West and took stuff over?
Ok, now replace those bitchy Ottoman states that had been concentrated all of their military might to the west for the last thousand years... With SuperRome. They turn around, and head East. The good times roll.

>>6743208
What do you think would happen?

Don't just leave it to platitudes.

Explain.

>>6743233
I'm not a Historian, we are in completely untreaded waters here.

>>6743243
WELL THEN LETS COME UP WITH SOMETHING KICK ASS!

>>6743157

The Islamic Renaissance in the 700s was triggered by the arabs stealing Chinese inventions. With peaceful contact on the part of Rome, there might be something similar as early as the 400s or 500s.

Also, don't forget India in this. Rome was trading with them straight through until the Arabs ruined it. Now they're not in a position to ruin it, since Rome is now right next to India.

>>6743269
Are you suggesting there might have been some kind of alternative history UN kind of deal between Rome, India and China for the creation and sustaining of trade?

>>6743260
Well, let's say that for some reason, and I'd really rather not get into why, the Holy Roman Empire *doesn't* fail. Because of the fall of Western Rome, and the lack of crusades to strengthen the authority of the papal states, the HRE starts consuming the rest of Europe, and gets into a scuffle with Eastern Rome because they're richer than God.
So, you get a Crusade, except with Europeans attacking Roman-Persians to get at China. The Arabs failed to expand into Asia, but probably hit up Spain pretty hard, so you've got most of Islam in western Europe and Africa, separating its influences from China.

What this ultimately means is that Eastern Rome is besieged by the entire western world, while China has to deal with the entire Mongol threat.

>>6743302
Which means Eastern Rome and China team up for the greatest buddy cop movie ever.

>>6743208
>>6743233
>>6743243

Back up, what about the Hephthalites, or the White Huns (which were mostly unrelated to the other huns)? They wrecked shit on the Silk Road. With Rome trading with China more and more, China and Rome band together to keep them from wrecking shit in the 400s.

Also Xiyu regiion. It becomes superwealthy due to all the trade, and it was independent of the Han dynasty at some points.

The rise of the Khaganates in the 400s, north of China. Would they come in conflict with Rome, or would they become allies?

>>6743302

The Mongol Empire only started up because Genghis's grandfather drove out the Jin Dynasty.

Let's not forget the Three Kingdoms period, either. With Rome's trade in the mix, Wei would have an economic advantage over Wu, which means the Jin dynasty might not even come into being.

>>6743383
Let's say for the purpose of this, that China uses its new found wealth and technology gained through trade with Rome to keep itself united, save for a few areas out in the outskirts, maybe.

Does this trade act like a perpetual motion machine? Just making Rome and China stronger and stronger?

>WHAT HAPPENS?

SPLENDID ISOLATION TRADE EMBARGO THE MOTHERFUCKERS! AMORAL CHINESE SILK IS RUINING OUR MORALS AND STEALING OUR GOLDS!

You know, sorta what happened IRL?

>>6743301

It seems likely that something along those lines might have happened, although consider this: During the third century, India was far from united, China was in its warring states period, and Rome was undergoing the aptly-named Crisis of the Third Century. Now, it could be that contact between them would have altered the situation, but chances are most of them will be fighting each other in a seriously FUBAR mess.

>>6743414

I meant to say Three Kingdoms, not Warring States.

>>6743383
IMPORT LEGIONARIES
>AdviceCaoCao
FUCKING DESTROY SHU

>>6743407

That's an untenable hypothesis. The 3 kingdoms period was started by peasant revolts, and Rome isn't exactly the type to help peasants to prevent their revolting. It's possible it would have lessened the severity of the conflict, say into only 2 kingdoms, but the capitol itself was in serious trouble. Not to mention the fact that Rome was facing a crisis of its own. Said crisis was caused by an economic collapse, which would have been worsened by the growth of the empire. The western portion would have collapsed just like in OTL, and the capitol probably would have moved to Ctesiphon (somewhere around Baghdad) to facilitate trade.

>>6743435

ONE CANNOT SIMPLY BOX AND EXPORT WOOPASS

>>6743451

Bullshit. I live in America and that's out chief export.

>>6743383
But the Jin Dynasty came around because the Sima family backstabbed the Cao rulers. I don't really see how a wealthier Wei would prevent that, unless it would bring more talented individuals to serve Wei and Cao Pi wouldn't have to turn to Sima Yi despite being warned of him due to lack of talented officers.

>>6743451

Yes but you can box and export Kriegers.

Hell, its hard NOT to do it sometimes.

>>6739025
That pic can't possibly be true scale. If it were, the middle mast would be over 200' tall with the banner on top being at least 50' long and a sail over 100' wide.

There's no way a 200' tall wooden mast would have been strong enough for that.

So let's say Rome and China's trade opens up the possibility of China hiring Roman armies in aiding reunification.

Assuming this succeeds, how would China be affected by Roman soldiers, which could be composed of any multitude of elasticities, settling down in China after the fighting is done?

>>6743484

Yeah, I realized that just before you posted. I confused Emperor Wu with the Wu kingdom. I'm more familiar with Eastern Europe for that time period.

In any case, the Jin dynasty would be somewhat more stable due to the economic stimulus from Rome, though Europe would be collapsing around that time. Anyways, fast forward. Would Rome ally itself with Jin, or would it help the growing Northern Wei? Or a third party that didn't even show up in OTL?

I just thought of something.

It's a long way from Roman Persia to China along the Silk Road, and Rome isn't likely to control all that area, and China wouldn't be interested either, I don't think. In that case, wouldn't there be many petty central asian kingdoms of various origins in that area?

>>6743585
I'd say whichever group they'd be able to trade with.

I mean, at that level of expansion, it would only continue to exist with a constant changing of resources. If nothing is getting traded anymore, then the economy around the trade route slumps and things collapse.

Rome's main focus, during any Chinese civil war, would be maintained trade.

>>6743615
Especially if we went off of what you're saying. If the midway point between the two trade partners is too remote for either to control, then a third party middleman would rise if there wasn't anything there already.

Growth by association.

Rome would probably go to war with at least some of the Indian states, and consequently annex quite a bit of the Indian subcontinent. Perhaps they would try to find an alternate trade route to China when the Gokturks become a problem along the Silk Road?

>>6743657
When first establishing the trade route, they'd probably either buy off or conquer any local forces in the area, setting up a clear pathway for them to use. From there, those localized annexations could spread outwards.

Imagine if Rome and China work together to "tame" the trade route, annexing local tribes/cities/armies into a cohesive stretch of land. Even if it's a hundred different groups, there would still be relative peace in the area. Increased wealth as well.

What happens when these small groups use their newly gained peace to plot together, using the tactics/technology and money gained from Rome and China to work together and branch out deeper north and south?

There is where we could really see the rise of other independent states.

Rome and China? WORKING TOGETHER!?

What happens when their military strategies co-mingle?

Do we see Roman martial artists?

>>6743708

>implyin Rome didn't have martial arts

Japan, mongolia, korea and south asia are major players in all this, i think its pretty fail to just say "what if the east wasn't shit when Europe got awesome" when all you think when you say east is "durrhurr china"
Cant say anything as far as korea and south asia, but japan has quite an advantage over china in that its a island nation, and it wont matter how many soldiers china has when all japan needs to focus on is navy. This is of course assuming japan gets it's shit together.

>>6743689

Roman, Neo-persian, Turk, and Chinese states rise along the Silk Road, seeking to expand their influence in both regions around the 400s-500s.

It occurs to me that none of the factors that caused the Byzantine empire to fall exist in this scenario, meaning the Roman Empire could last well beyond the 1500s, assuming Europe doesn't make an unexpected major comeback.

>>6743768
Have you paid attention to the thread at all? This all assumes China didn't downgrade all of it's military, including it's fuckhuge navy, which could steamroll over Japan and the early AD.

>>6743768

From the 500s to the early 1000s Japan was busy doing jack shit. We don't need to worry about them yet. As for Korea, they were powerful, sure, but they didn't really do much in the long run.

>>6743774
Let's assume, ASSUME, that Rome and China open trade. They coordinate to clear the silk road, opening the trade route and making it possible for fuckloads of trade between them.

The border areas fill out both with locals who "get educated" as it were, with the sudden influx of Roman/Chinese influences, as well as with Roman and Chinese immigrants moving to the Wild Middle as it were to make it rich on the trade route.

Now, this seems very beneficial, and all groups involved want it to continue for the foreseeable future, so let's also assume that for each group, the other is there militarily and financially to assist. Chinese civil wars/visigoths, etc.

Does this result in massive unchecked growth?

>>6743833

That's way, way too large a stretch of land.

Any attempt to defend it, even a joint roman-chinese effort, will be stretched uselessly thin.

What happens is either a.) Area becomes banditlands, caravans are heavily armed, lots of losses but trade remains profitable in spite of them, or

b.) Third power rises and takes care of itself, but in turn taxes out a steady cut of profits.

I think this thread has gone far enough. What we have to realize is that OP here was talking about the Chinese becoming an imperialistic nation with ambitions of conquering other parts of the world.

On the other hand, Europe during that time, hearing of the immense wealth of the East would also vie for the same global, and trading domination. The question naturally is who would win?

Before you Caucasian Eurofags shout out "HURRR, EUROPEANS OWN EVERYTHING WITH THEIR KNIGHTS AND BIG PENISES, HURRR!!" we must not forget the fact that the Chinese in this scenario would have an EFFECTIVE army wielding bat-shit insane technology.

On the other hand, Europeans would be driven by zeal and with their propensity to steal other cultural and technological inventions, they could potentially learn to integrate tha into their society. So who would win?

>>6744702

With the Chinese technological advances, it's a no contest. The Chinese had guns, cannons, land mines, naval mines, bombs, automatic crossbows, crossbows, flamethrowers and multi-stage rockets.

It's a no-brainer. If we ASSUME China did not abandon their military effectiveness during the Song Dynasty then they would fuck shit up if they indeed decided to go imperialistic. I can envision Europeans cowering in fear at the thought of being blasted to bits by their "alien" and "heathen" gunpowder technology..

>>6743809
>>implying the age of discovery was during the 500s,

yea circumnavigating africa i guess, are we going to talk about actually settling anything?

>>6744735

>>I can envision Europeans cowering in fear at the thought of being blasted to bits by their "alien" and "heathen" gunpowder technology..

Cannons were becoming quite well-established in the thirteenth century - I'm not sure that the technological disparity would really be so massive as people are assuming.

>>6744837

We're hypothetically talking about 11th century China here going bat-shit insane like the Europeans in their quest of imperialism..

Cannons were not well established in Europe during that time yet. In fact, Europe's naval power is a far cry to that of the Chinese during the 13th century so this is another factor to count in their defeat..

It's a known fact that the Chinese used flamethrowers early on in their naval campaigns against the Jurchens. If China went batshit insane and started incorporating imperialistic concepts in the mainland, they would literally fuck neighboring countries at whim.

Pic related, early use of flamethrowers. With these the Chinese could easily fuck up the Europeans they will encounter in this assumed scenario.

>>6745436
For those who don't know it already, this picture represents the use of flamethrowers by the byzantine fleet (discovered in 600 something).

their crossbows and cavalry were already fine enough for fighting

the weird technology is more situational, or defensive in sieges