To start off, we basically agreed on it being something like one of two variants of combat resolution and one of two variants of rout.

CR1:
>General combat resolution checks occur as before. The difference from normal loser only makes morale checks for breaking the melee after their side loses combat resolution twice in a row. When the unit breaks from melee (due to lost morale check after losing combat resolution twice or more in a row), it moves its speed in the direction away from the other unit.

Additionally, if a unit takes more than or equal to 25% casualties during a single attack/counterattack sequence, the unit makes a morale check to break. This also occurs if the unit takes more than or equal to 50% casualties cumulatively in a round.

CR2:
>At the end of the combat phase compare how many wounds were dealt by each unit. For each wound you add +1 to the Combat Resolution score of the unit. Which ever unit has the higher score wins the battle and the other unit must take a morale test to see if they break or continue fighting. This is accomplished by rolling a 1d10 and comparing the result to the units Morale value (In units that contain multiple morale values, use the highest value). If the result is lower, the unit passes the test and continues fighting. If the result is higher the unit fails the test and Breaks.

If a unit fails a break test they must, in the next movement phase, moving its full move value away from the unit that caused them to break. At the end of the next movement phase they may reform as normal.

repostan

Roman primary:

Primary:
Deus Machina:
These are the steel warriors made by Vulcan himself, and oiled with the blood of Christians. Each is the size of the Colossus, has the form of a man,and wields a sword and shield of similar proportion. The hero given the honour of wearing such armour stands in place of its heart, direction the motions of the machine with his own body.

Volcanus Machina: M6 W3 I4 L9 S
Martius Machina: M4 W4 I3 L9 S3
(Martius would have options for more offense, while Vulcanus would get more defense)

Special Rules:
Standard of Divinity: Friendly units within 6” of the Deus Machina may reroll any failed Morale tests. Additionally, any friendly unit within 12” adds +1 to their Combat Resolution score.

Fear: This unit causes Fear.

Good god, it's beautiful. Need to find some images worth using for this.

>>6479827
R1:
If a unit takes more than or equal to 50% casualties in a single attack, it makes two morale checks. If both fail, the entire unit is removed from the field. The same check also occurs if the unit takes more than or equal to 75% casualties throughout a round.

Other fear effects, etc. as normal.

R2:
>If a unit takes wounds equal to half of the units wound total (The sum of all models wounds) in a single attack, or if it faces a unit more than two tiers above it, the unit checks for Rout. The unit rolls a d10 against its morale score plus any modifiers. If the roll is lower, then proceed normally, however if it fails, remove it from play.

>>6479834
Some drawfags/writefags around to keep shit from getting as tense as the last thread would be nice.

>>6479827
I vote CR2

>>6479838
rout is just redundant.

make it a rule that specifies any unit under half strength are considered to be in a rout and can not reform, unless otherwise stated (say from a primary being within 6")

Guy who made 1 here. I vote for the two-round system of CR1, with some modifications to add the language of the second for what happens after the check is failed (I just put down what I thought meant that anyway, I didn't mean the unit perma-breaks as per general fear effects).

On the other hand, I vote for R2, the 2-roll thing for R1 is excessive.

>>6479883
>cannot reform

Units who don't use formations don't mind this...

Oh, add to the Roman Special Rules that their Fodder also can use Formation rules, since their fodder is just usu. normal legionaries and auxiliaries from areas allied to/underneath Rome.

>>6479952

Of course, not counting aux. like skirmishers and light cavalry.

both ideas seem good to me so I'll let others decide on that, just two things though. Regardless of which idea we go think I think moral checks should jsut be done on a single D10 roll. Secondly what happens when the D10 roll equals the moral value? pass or fail?

>>6479952
All fodder from factions that use formations can use formations. Formations are, by default, usable by fodder and tertiaries.

>>6479983

Pass.

Also, as for differing fodder between the other forces...Christian fodder gets a higher L due to zealotry, while Hun fodder get slightly cheaper access to fodder cavalry, and Indians get...I dunno. Neither do I know for Celts and the Chinese.

>>6479945
How about something like:

Units who are routing must make a morale check each round or be unable to act; reforming is not allowed while in a rout. Starting a turn within 6" of a friendly Primary unit takes the unit out of rout, and it may act that turn as normal.

Also, still require a check for rout.

>>6479983
Agreed.

>>6480000
Indians: Initiative bonus. Most Indian fodder are peasants revolting under Ashoka's guidance. Given the cruelty of the Romans, they have less reserve about attacking the enemy.

>>6479945
maybe reform is the wrong choice of words. I mean they don't stop falling back if they are in a rout. Formations get a chance to use the reform maneuver, where non-formation units just regroup and stop running.

>>6479828
additional rules

Strength of Vulcan: As the god of the forge is the patron of this Deus Machina, any attacks made against it have their needed to-hit roll increased by 1. This rule only applies to Volcanus Machina.

Strength of Mars: Watched over by the god of war, this Deus Machina surges with martial power. Reduce the needed to-hit roll when attacking by 1. This rule only applies to Martius Machina.

>>6479988

Not for all fodder, I think, since fodder represent the normalish units to round out an army, such as cavalry, skirmishers, and etc.

Nothing too fancy, just like upgrades to the units and changing their weapons/etc.

>>6480057
>>6480000
Celts: cheaper access to bows, as hunting is more common and glorified in their culture.

Chinese: cheaper spear access. Most of the Chinese conscripts use spears made of their former farming tools.

>>6480079
Agreed.

>>6480082
with the terracotta it doesn't seem like they would be using peasant militia. Terracotta are by far the weakest of the tertiaries (except when it comes to morale), but they have the advantage of sheer numbers.

>>6480082

I think that will be fine, once we determine the rest of the stats by points and etc. Fodder should be rather cheap in comparison to the overall better Tertiary, of course, since they have better stats and snazzy upgrades and even T's can attempt to wound a Primary (due to Fodder/Quads being 3 tiers below a Primary...maybe changing that a bit for fodder to get a tiny chance?).

>>6480094
Yeah, I mostly included them out of completion. I figure some province under attack might throw them out in desperation. Terracotta warriors should really be cheap enough to be worth operating without fodder in most circumstances.

>>6480094

Mass bows/crossbows, of course. Bitches don't know about my rain of arrows.

>>6480107
Fodder have an alright chance against Tertiaries. They're mostly there to soak up damage against everything else, because they're very, very good at that. Also, some slight fixing for vulnerable factions (emphasis on slight).

>>6480119

Not as cheap as the Celts but a longer range

>>6480138

Well, enough Fodder could take out even secondary though sheer weight of numbers.

>>6480140
Sounds like a plan. Archers would be a good method of Terracotta backup.

>>6480153

Indeed. Besides, it was a basic part of Chinese armies IRL.

>>6480152
Against some of the weaker secondaries, definitely. Although their low morale means they wouldn't last long.

>>6480163

Rain of fire arrows, motherfucker, with the chance to do ongoing damage.

>>6480176

Of course, that would be a rather expensive upgrade compared to the other weapons.

>>6480176
Let's not get too crazy. They're fodder. Useful in certain situations, sure, but give them too many nice things and they eclipse the focus of the game.

>>6480193

Well, fire damage is at least in consideration, at least for going against Celts and their looted machines and treemen.

Regardless of which combat resolution or rout we end up using, do we at least agree on using a single roll mechanic?

>>6480202
Fire damage in general, yeah. I just don't like the idea of the fodder being the huge day-saver units.

>>6480205

Yes, sounds good, though maybe upgrades to allow a reroll, maybe, at least for Christians. They are known for their crazed zealotry, ya know.

>>6480222
Well, right, upgrades will change things. But right now I'm just considering the base mechanic.

>>6480216

Well, lighting things on fire does make things suck for the person being lit aflame, in general, especially with flaming oils or other volatile substances, like 'greek fire'. Like I said, it would be a rather expensive upgrade, limiting those who would want to spam it, along with of course archer fodder being able to get their asses handed to them in melee by most anything, much less by dedicated cc units even one tier above them, or two or three.

>>6480222

Christians shouldn't really be fielding much in the way of actual fodder. They simply don't have the numbers to do it. Their sheer zealotry and disregard for personal safety is why what would be their fodder-tier units are their tertiaries.

>>6480263

Reroll then for their T's. A costly upgrade, of course, since that means they can tarpit other units easier.

>>6480263
Yeah, I think he was talking about rerolls for Christians in general. Two different conversation threads.

>>6480258

Other units I can see using such things are of course Heralds and Ascendants, with flaming swords or other snazzy weapons.

Of course, the Jade Wagons also can use different types of rockets, so incendiary too along with HE and maybe more kinds.

And, the Romans probably dabble in some too, at least, seeing how they do own Greece and the Middle East, both who knew how to make 'greek fire'.

>>6480284
How about making it an Ascendant upgrade?

Proof of Sacrifice

An Ascendant who has this ability makes himself constantly visible to his companions. They are constantly reminded of his sacrifice and why they fight. Friendly units within 3" of the Ascendant may roll two morale checks whenever they would normally roll one, and take the better of the two.

>>6480325

...yeah, so I like fire. It works well for what it does, especially for breaking morale, IRL. Rather hard to try and fight when your buddies are aflame and running around screaming and their skin melting and bubbling and you can smell them cooking alive.

>>6480153
I feel compelled to point out that we have for a very long period of time said that the terracotta should have access to Cho-ko-nu. Thus, Terracotta are archers.

>>6480365

Standard for them. They already pay in losing the unit to bring in the angelic figure.

>>6480376

The more ranged firepower, the merrier. Dem Chinese loved their ranged shit.

>>6480376

And not just any archers, swarm-based archers with a rate of fire bonus and completely unbreakable morale.

INB4 "Chinese are broken", "everyone plays Chinese", etc.

>>6480365
That's lame from a fluff point of view. These Christians are the hard-ass motherfuckers who fought and died countless times. They know what they're fighting for.

>>6480402

Reword the fluff, keep the crunch.

Inspires them to ever greater acts of courage, of course, seeing the divine touch one of their brethren.

>>6480400

Yes, but I also imagine them like the Tau, where you go up into CC and clobber them to death.

>>6480380
It's true, and they're weak as shit for secondaries. Behind you on that one.

>>6480376
Idea: give the fodder access to that.

Also, you'd be far better served having the Terracotta warriors melee. That crazy morale score and their higher unit cap both point to it.

>>6480409
Yeah. The fluff was just the first thing that came to mind.

>>6480428
>>6480119
>>6480140

The idea has already been put forth.

>>6480428
The Chu Ko Nu was made for peasants anyways, so they could get the same effectiveness as the professional archers. Terracotta crush the enemy udner the weight of their clay, while archers armed with the Cho Ku Nu rain death upon the enemy from afar.

>>6480449
Exactly. They coincide.

>>6480454

So, essentially, the Chinese would be getting the most dakka-heavy fodder?

>>6480454
Don't forget the Jade Wagon artillery on top of that.

Chinese: the turtling faction.

>>6480400
On the other hand, their secondaries get a limited amount of shots. That takes the faction down a bit in terms of power.

>>6480466

Indeed. THEN RAIN FIRE ON THEM. Of course, Terracotta warriors are immune to the fire part, for obvious reasons.

>>6480473

Speaking of, how about the mechanic of Divine Intervention for the Christians, seeing how their secondaries and their Heralds seem to be rather subpar in comparison to the rest, at least for now?

Kind of like Faith based powers, calling up assistance, and leading to such things like pillars of fire, raining brimstone, and swift, nasty, localized plagues.

>>6480490

Besides, the Christians do seem to be rather more Old-Testamenty than the LOVE AND PEACE version.

>>6480490
>>6480509
I figure that options/equipment for Ascendants should be more powerful than other tiers' to make them on-par. Heralds should definitely have some awesome fire-and-brimstone combat options.

>>6480490
>their secondaries and their Heralds seem to be rather subpar
wat
We haven't statted heralds yet. Ascendants have I, S, and L higher than any other secondary, and only Spirit Kin have higher M.

>>6480554

Good. We all know how YHWH loved to bring the wrath down upon those who displeased him, and also explains why the Christians are one faction rather than being regulated into Mercs like so many others.

tl;dr: FUCK YOU YOU'RE A PILLAR OF SALT NOW HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW?

>>6480575

The sac ability and waiting to summon the Heralds means they are there for a lesser amount of time to affect the battlefield, unlike the other Secondaries and Primaries, lessening their combat effectiveness.

Someone want to do the thing where you compare units relative to each other in terms of each stat for the Primaries? I would do it myself, but I was the one who came up with preliminary numbers before, and that worked well, so I'm averse to changing it.

>>6480598
For Heralds, this is true. For Ascendants, there's nothing to stop you from summoning your Ascendants first turn, it's actually a benefit, because you can wait until you needed them, and then suddenly there they are, right where you needed them.

Goodnight, anons. Done for now spamming my ideas of upgrades and fire and shit to diversify the factions and their gameplay even moreso than how they are at this moment.

>>6480679

They're fine ideas, but right now we're focusing on nailing down the core mechanics.

Which is why I'm being very, very quiet. My knowledge of tabletop gaming is somewhere in the neighborhood of nil.

In b4 that one guy trying to sneak in Nasu-universe style characters again (King Arthur, Gilgamesh, and etc).

>>6480490
i was thinking about it and came up with the idea that asendants should be looks at as upgrades to the tertiary, and a seperate unit should be developed as their secondary. Let me explain

As is christans will show up with basically the same list of a ton of warriors, then will survey their opponent's list and set up and finally decide if they start morphing ascendants or not. Morphing lists remove one part of TT gaming, ie list building. If you invision (like i do) that in almost every case warriors will want to call an ascendant simply make ascendants the warrior commander or a special ability. This also allows for the second tier to be a ranged or long range unit something the army may lack at this time. Thank you and good luck

>>6480599
Alright, let's start with Move.

Heralds > Avatars > God Machines = Dragons > Treemen > Old Ones

Heralds get the highest due to their conditions for summoning; this way, they can get to where they need to be, faster. Avatars are next, to keep up with enhanced Siddhi. Dragons are next assuming they can fly; if not, they'll be close to or equal to God Machines. God Machines are the fastest of the walkers, followed by Treemen. Given the chaotic form of the Old Ones, movement isn't going to be a strong suit.

>>6480773
One idea that was brought from an older thread (either last thread or the one before) was that Ascendants can either be summoned on-field or bought to start like any other unit. What we could do is raise the number of wounds back up to 2 for the (expensive) Ascendants who come like normal units, but have the (cheap) summoned ones start at 1 like we've been talking about. They'd both still be a bit on the frail side of things, given that they take 4 instead of 5 from tertiaries to wound.

>>6480770

(Oh, that's my cue, apparently)

Lü Bu here, the FIying General. Don't mind me, I'm just here to kick ass and take names.

>>6480813
>>6480813
and I'm all out of names

>>6480820
Well, take some more then!

>>6480827

Working on it

NAME : Chang Hsun (someone help with the pinyin?)

YEAR : A.D. ??? - 757

DYNASTY : Tang Dynasty

SUMMARY OF ACHIEVEMENT/S : Defending the Tang against An Lu-shan's rebellion, he first saw to the defence of Yung-ch'iu (pinyin?) in A.D. 756, sallying forth repeatedly from the fortifications to playing havoc among the 40,000 attackers with just 2,000 men for two months. He resorted to the classic ploy of using grass men to replenish his arrow supplies and repelled the attackers again and again.

Then yet again in the historically famous siege of Sui-yang (pinyin?), with just 6,800 soldiers he withstood an onslaught of 130,000 rebels under An Lushan's commander, Yin Tzu-ch'i (pinyin?). Fighting desperately for months, he reportedly killed 120,000 of the attackers until only 400 starving warriors remained for the final hand-to-hand battle that finally saw them killed to the last man.

His actions, though he couldn't save the city because of overwhelming force, retarded the rebellion's southward advance for close to a year and depleted An Lushan of a large segment of his rebel army, giving much needed breathing space and time for the Tang.

>>6480773
You still pay for an ascendant as part of your list, it's just not actually on the table until somebody ascends.

>>6480835

Li Shimin 李世民 (599-649)
Emperor Taizong of Tang China

Under his reign, the famous rule of Zhenguan (貞觀之治) took place (his era name was Zhenguan). It was the peak of the Tang Dynasty. Conquered once mighty Eastern Turkic Khanate and allowed Tang to become the major power in the region.

Name : Xi Shi

Dynasty : Yue state

Date : Spring and Autumn period


Chinese beauty Xi-Shi


Source : Dragon Tales
Xi-Shi was not only a great beauty in history, but also the greatest spy in ancient China for the State of Yue. States of Yue and Wu were bitter enemies and battled year in and year out although its people shared many similarities in terms of social customs and food.

Xi-Shi lived during the Spring and Autumn period, Yue state. All the villagers in her home had the same surname – Shi. Her home village was divided into two sections – eastern and western sections. As Xi-Shi lived in the western (xi) section, she was thus known as Xi-Shi.

Fan Li spotted Xi-Shi one day and was impressed by her sentiments to her own country that he asked her whether she would sacrifice herself for the state. Fan Li’s plan was to divert the Wu King’s attention with women and build up the Yue army for a final war with Wu. At once, Xi-Shi fell on her knees, readily agreed for the service.

Fan Li’s plan worked out well. The King of Wu, Fu Chai, indulged so much in Xi Shi that he neglected state affairs. Ten years later, the state of Yue, given maps of Wu sent over by Xi-Shi, defeated Wu in just one battle.

(I'm just copypasting from some Chinese forum since I don't remember shit from when I took classes based on Chinese history, heh)

Zhu Geliang
182-234
Period of Three Kingdoms

Prime Minister of Shu.
He knew well of military science, and was a great genius in military.
Most of his story can be found in the book Romance of Three Kingdom.
What touches me most is that in all his life, he kept on doing what couldn't be done. He knew he could not save Shu out of the crisies, but he tried his best to fight against Wei, to realise the dream of reviving Han Dynasty. He did all this, only to thank Liu Bei for his apprecistion and appointing.

>>6480840

The argument that's being levied against this mechanic is that Christian tertiaries would be a walking Catch 22. You butcher them, you generate a fresh secondary right on top of your troops. You don't, they wreak havoc in your lines. Your best bet would be to pin them with fodder and have your primary standing by for angelic whack-a-mole.

I can see where they're coming from, and the idea of having Ascendants as a HQ tertiary and moving something else to secondary tier has some merit.

Ancient Chinese Warrior Huang Xin

The story behind this Ancient Chinese Warrior painting:

Huang Xin was from Qingzhou, where he served as a general. He was exceptionally good in martial arts, which earned him fame throughout Qingzhou. Once, he boasted that he could subdue the outlaws on Qingfeng Mountain, Erlong Mountain and Taohua Mountain. Thus he earned himself the nickname "suppresser of three mountains".

Once, the governor of Qingfeng Fort, Liu Gao, captured Song Jiang. Governor Murong of Qingzhou sent Huang Xin to escort Song back to Qingzhou. Huang Xin believed Liu Gao's words that Hua Rong was planning to betray him, so he tricked Hua to a banquet under the pretext that he wanted to resolve the conflict between them. Halfway during the banquet, Huang Xin's soldiers ambushed Hua Rong and captured him.

With the two prisoners, Huang Xin made his way back to Qingzhou. Along the way, Yan Shun, Wang Ying, Zheng Tian-shou and the bandits from Qingfeng Mountain attacked Huang Xin. Huang Xin could not resist all three men at the moment so he retreated. The Qingfeng bandits then rescued Song Jiang and Hua Rong. Later the Qingfeng bandits also captured Qin Ming, who agreed the join the band. Qin Ming had taught Huang Xin martial arts before, so he managed to persuade Huang Xin to join the band as well. With Huang Xin's help, the heroes conquered Qingfeng Fort and killed Liu Gao with his family, then fled to Liangshan for refuge.

Huang Xin became one of the leaders of the Liangshan calvary and 72 Earthly Fiends. After Song Jiang had obtained amnesty from the emperor, Huang Xin followed the heroes on their campaigns against the Liao Tartars and rebels. He was one of the few lucky surviving heroes after the campaigns, and took up his official post again in Qingzhou as a reward.

>>6480810
what is the idea for flight, is there a difference for flying in combat as appose to all out balls-to-the-walls flying?

>>6480868
>>6480851
>>6480842
>>6480835
Nobody actually cared, dude.

>>6480917
We haven't done anything with flight yet.

>>6480917
We haven't done any rules with regard to that yet. I just figured that units who could fly would have better move.

>>6480842
your very good with words and right. The other issue is a christian stands in front of a massive shooty army, well.. its lotsa ascendants time lol. The same army stands in front of a 2 Godzilla unit list, so the exact same army tarpits, flanks and whittles them, then does the pop goes the ascendant trick.

>>6480835
When I said take more names, I didn't mean keep spamming the thread, I was making a joke off of what the guy I quoted said.

If you want heroes that badly, wait until we're done with the system as we've already imagined it. Few people are supporting you on this.

>>6480810
In general In agree, though I think Old ones should be faster (if not the fastest on foot ones) all the other hun units are fast I think we should keep the theme of the hun units been a fast hit and run type army.

>>6480951
The thing is that units can't be in melee during the ritual. It's not an instant thing. So they'd have to pull some crazy maneuvering to "pop" Ascendants.

>>6480883
Yeah, after considering it, we're better off making a solid/standard Secondary unit rather than having Christians get caught in that awkward middle position.

>>6480932
>>6480945
as a person who played TT for years, this needs to be figured out pronto imho. The ability to ignore terrain (which is what flight does after all) is a MASSIVE one. Also remember that movement affects charging. and when dealing with units of close to equal strength in WH the unit that charges almost ALWAYS defeats the charged unit.

>>6480972
We actually brought this up earlier. The main strategy of the Huns is stalling by disruption -- both the secondary and tertiary tiers have Fear abilities, both have good move, and the tertiary has an archery focus. The primary tier unit is what they're stalling for.

Of course, if I understood that wrong and the consensus disagrees with my interpretation, they'll move. The idea of the stat lists is so we think about these things.

>>6480972
Old ones being slow is something we agreed upon several threads ago. Since your concern is gamist, consider this: It provides something for Hun players to do in terms of manipulating the battlefield; with the rest of their units they can just put them where they want them, with Old ones, they can have more short-term goals like DROP THE GREAT OLD ONE ON THOSE FUCKING MAN MACHINES. It makes the game more fun for them.

>>6481004
thats the whole idea of tarpitting

>>6480972
if any race should have an upgradeable primary tier its the huns, imho. It just seems like no two giant spirit/human halfbreeds would be the same.

>>6481004
>The thing is that units can't be in melee during the ritual. It's not an instant thing. So they'd have to pull some crazy maneuvering to "pop" Ascendants.

Again, TT's not my thing, so stop me where I run completely off the rails.

Unit 1 of Christian Faithful (because calling the Christian tertiary unit "Christians" is pretty damn redundant, isn't it?) moves from combat and spends the turn summoning their Ascendant. Unit 2 (also Christian Faithful) moves forward to screen and take their allotted damage for Ascendant-spam. Ascendant is summoned, moves up to flank, OH GOD THE ANGEL IS RAPING MY FACE GEDDITOFFOFME!!!

>>6481036
>>6481029
Oh I see, yeah that actually sounds good, keep them slow then, though make them relatively beefy.

>>6481019
Makes perfect sense. Except:

>and when dealing with units of close to equal strength in WH the unit that charges almost ALWAYS defeats the charged unit.

The thing is, we don't have any special charge rules outside of formations, which don't apply to flying anyway. High-initiative still goes first, except for against lower tiers -- lower tiers always have priority anyway, thus losing that advantage. So an easy way to balance out the massive advantage of bypassing terrain to attack others of the same tier is just to tone down their init.

Unless you meant something else by that, in which case you'll have to elaborate for those among us who aren't familiar.

>>6481103
Yeah, the idea is that they're something very, very worth stalling for.

So, we got Move...

>>6480810
Want to do a couple more stats?

A few things:

The Huns and fearspam are going to be very, very hard to counter for everyone save the Chinese. Is this going to become a problem?

Fearspam may turn out to be a double-edged sword, with every unit coming near the Huns breaking, running, and reforming 2x movement away.

Also, would they be able to IWIN by way of creative fear-kiting? (Multiple emplacements of fear-causing ranged units, so any units that break ping-pong from one unit to the next)?

>>6481094
>calling the Christian tertiary unit "Christians" is pretty damn redundant
True. What do you guys think about "Disciples"?

>>6481094
Now, keep in mind that the other side has units too. They have secondaries that are only marginally less powerful than Ascendants, and chances are, they have more of them. They also likely have a primary - or even two - whereas the Christians may well have not gotten theirs out yet. It's useful, but it's not going to do a whole lot by itself.

>>6481221
Yeah, sure, I'll bust through the rest of the stats before I go to sleep.

Morale

Herald > Dragons > God Machines > Avatar > Old Ones = Treemen

Heralds: When you're the direct messenger of God, you tend to be fairly hard to shake.
Dragons: When Dragons deign to fight, their will cannot be broken.
God Machines: Anyone piloting one of these is piloting manifest proof of their gods' favor.
Avatar: No real reason to be higher than the above.
Old Ones/Treemen: These do not think the same way that humans do; as such, they tend to be less willing to fight through adverse conditions.

>>6481267
Potentially. We might make subsequent saves vs. Fear be at bonuses (wearing out the shock, etc.) so they're not just LOLKITE the entire match.

>They have secondaries that are only marginally less powerful than Ascendants

The fact that Ascendants have 1W and take 4 tertiary damage to deal that 1W makes them quite easy to take out, especially if the army in question has any ranged capability.

>>6481132
1)do you also not have any rules for flank and back attacking (flying units and higher mobility get those alot too)
2)what about hiding ranged units behind melee walls, flying units get around that


As an aside id ask that the stat creators think differently about stating, bear with me i ramble. Instead of stating unit x,y,z first why not stat basic conceptual units like ranged units, cavalry units and meat shield units. Then after creating those guide lines start comparing units your making to their counterpart adjusting for racial qualities, tiers, cost, etc etc.

Say the romans, celts and huns have a cavalry unit, the roman one is tougher and has higher morale right? Maybe slower than the others? The hun one has more morale effecting abilities and probably faster? The celts might be the best fighter but goes down faster? Stating in this way may help keep everything grounded and easier to deal with.

>>6481322
>True. What do you guys think about "Disciples"?

Works for me.

My primary concern with Christians is that their lists would be guardspam, every single time, and every game would be rotate Disciples - pop Ascendants - VICTORY! Why use any other tertiary when this one shits secondaries 24-7?

>>6481336
>We might make subsequent saves vs. Fear be at bonuses

I support this. After a while, all horrible eldritch abominations start looking the same.

>>6481267
Currently they have no options which allow that.

>>6481336
looks good, though i'd put the Avatar = with Old Ones and Treemen, so that we don't end up with a pimary with only 5 Moral, that just seems wrong to me.
so
Herald:9 Dragons:8 God Machines:7 Avatar:6 Old Ones:6 Treemen:6

and i'd suggest move values of
Heralds:10 Avatars:9 God Machines:8 Dragons:8 Treemen:7 Old Ones:6

>>6481379
That would have been really good advice before we statted 2/3 of the units.

So far we only have flanking rules for formations, so flying would be a highly effective formation counter. Otherwise, there isn't anything explicitly set out for that.

>>6481396
We might make the ritual either take longer or be more interruptible if it's an issue. However, consider that Ascendants have to be pre-bought. If you pop all your Tertiaries to Ascendants, you essentially wasted a large amount of your point value's worth in Tertiaries. Also, as long as popping your Tertiaries doesn't count toward the Herald-meter, you're pushing your Primary back significantly by doing that.

>>6481336
I'd put Avatars before God Machines - probably equal to Dragons, in fact. They're the direct incarnations if Hindu gods, thus they have, for one thing, balls fairly equivalent to Dragons, and for another, they are just extensions of divine will. If they die, it sucks, but on another level it's not a super big deal.

>>6481336
>>Heralds: When you're the direct messenger of God, you tend to be fairly hard to shake.
dead on
>>Dragons: When Dragons deign to fight, their will cannot be broken.
disagree dragons are selfish, they are here to win not fight. If they are beaten in battle they wont stick around for round two. Though they might blast said unit that beat them with fire breath or come back to hit them when they're not looking
>>God Machines: Anyone piloting one of these is piloting manifest proof of their gods' favor.
dead on
>>Avatar: No real reason to be higher than the above.
they're not men they are master disciplines to an ideal they've given their lives too.
>>Old Ones/Treemen: These do not think the same way that humans do; as such, they tend to be less willing to fight through adverse conditions.
tree men = dead on, same with old ones but i feel that they have a frenzy that keep them from thinkin at all when in the heat of battle
imho
Heralds >god machines=avatar > treemen=oldones=dragons
with old ones capable of goin to herald tier if in frenzy (if they've tasted blood or something like that)

>>6481440

I'd almost bump God Machine morale down a notch or so. Saying that a human piloting a mech (no matter how badass) has morale higher than / equivalent to dragons, creator-gods, otherworldly horrors... wat?

>>6481455
first point - never to late to fix something

second - ive thought that ascendants might be on a timer. As in you getta second tier unit for a low cost tier one unit but you only get it for a turn or maybe two. This would keep the idea of what ascendants are in tact and live up to their names (after all they are ascending?lol). Course this would mean you still need a tier two christian unit if you go this way....

>>6481466

Think HOT BLOODED MECHA PILOTS

Those guys are unshakable.

>>6481440
The move values look a little high for the walkers (the last of which are supposed to be definitely slow). I'd say GM down to 7, Treemen to 6, and Old Ones to 5.

I suppose I should keep going with the stats.

Wounds

Treemen > Old Ones = Dragons > God Machines > Avatars = Heralds

Treemen are the oldest trees in the forest come to life. The only thing that really gets to them is fire.

Old Ones: They're quite hard to wound, mostly because there is no discernable pattern to determine vital areas.

Dragons: They're old. Very old. As such, their scales are hard enough to turn away all but the most persistent of attackers.

God Machines: Gigantic metal machines from the gods tend to be hard to break. Though, given their relatively smaller size, it's not quite as daunting.

Avatar/Herald: Their strengths lie in the faith that summoned them, not in the flesh.

>>6481509
Exactly. If you're piloting Jupiter's will upon this earth and you're a chickenshit, you're doing it very wrong.

>>6481465
>>6481466
ok so revision on moral
Herald:9 Dragons:7 God Machines:7 or 8? Avatar:8 Old Ones:7 Treemen:7

>>6481465
With regard to the dragons, my take was that they're stubborn old bastards. Beating them up a bit just makes them more pissed off.

>>6481509

I get that, and that if you're piloting a Roman primary, you're the guy that tears the hearts out of other hot-blooded mecha pilots bare-handed and then eats them, but still. Higher than Shiva, God of Destruction?

>>6481563
Everyone has morale between 7 and 9? Lame, more of a spread would be nice.

>>6481379
Since this is being taken seriously, I'll take a moment to refute it.

>As an aside id ask that the stat creators think differently about stating, bear with me i ramble. Instead of stating unit x,y,z first why not stat basic conceptual units like ranged units, cavalry units and meat shield units.
Because in real life, these are roles that flow from existing people. I could write an essay on why this is, and why the following statement does indeed follow, but suffice to say that this means that the best way for a game designer to build a realistic and consistent world is for him to follow the same pattern.

>Then after creating those guide lines start comparing units your making to their counterpart adjusting for racial qualities, tiers, cost, etc etc.
That's what we've done with the baselines. It's worked well so far.
Besides, if we do it in the other order, it gets to be a bit of a bitch to figure out what those inherent bonuses to the actual unit are, when he isn't purposed to one of those roles. Thus we end up changing it and coming back to this method anyway.

>Say the romans, celts and huns have a cavalry unit, the roman one is tougher and has higher morale right? Maybe slower than the others? The hun one has more morale effecting abilities and probably faster? The celts might be the best fighter but goes down faster? Stating in this way may help keep everything grounded and easier to deal with.
That's what we've been doing, yes. If you feel it's stated obliquely on the wiki, feel free to change it.

>>6481581
I don't mind Avatars moving up.

>>6481585
They're Primaries, they're not liable to get scared easily.

>>6481585

You can only go down so far before you run into the situation of "charging naked guys with blue bodypaint just scared away my elder god". And you can't really go above 10. A narrow range for stats for primaries is to be expected.

>>6481563
Herald:10
no reason to skimp on this hell id say this amp has an 11 on it. Know what i mean?
Avatar:9 or 8
probably both if there are more than one type
god machines: 9-7
i assume there will be multiple specs for different gods, thus different qualities of pilots.
Treemen:7 they are functionally immortal this isn the first battle they've seen, the older they get the stronger they'll become, its just humans after all. These are the rationales treemen use for being cowards
Old Ones:7 same as treemen til they go batshit crazy then its the 11 theory
Dragons:7 or 6>>6481576 this is the problem, we have to decide which dragon myth we're deciding our dragons are based on. I advocate this, since they will already have flight, speed, armor, claws and a ranged breath weapon their morale stat can be their one (big) chink in the armor

>>6481585
I figured that as primaries even the worst ones are still gonna be badass

>>6481635
you can always create things like "stubborn" and "fearless" basically create a rule that states said model is immune to morale in certain situations (like being attacked by lesser creatures) but still leaves the morale stat low for times when it is affected by it (like when it loses a round in combat)

>>6481643
>which dragon myth we're deciding our dragons are based on.
The Chinese one

>>6481643
of course if we go with 10 or 11 they'll only ever fail if they are suffering penalties. so its more powerful than just 1 better than 9

>>6481679
my take is angels dont think, they believe... the IDEA of not doing what they are commanded to do doesnt happen so running isnt an option, regardless of the outcome. The same thing with the old ones when frenzied they just simply dont think, its like an unnatural instinct to destroy.

Keep in mind that these > values are by no means static. They'll move to and fro by consensus. Also, note that things like buyable options or special abilities might shift some attributes to and fro.

Initiative

God Machines ~ Old Ones >> Avatars > Treemen > Heralds ~ Dragons

God Machines have the highest due to the best training and discipline they can get combined with the most responsive machine possible.

Old Ones: due to their uncertain nature, their attacks are hard to anticipate.

Avatars: The incarnate forms of the Gods are very aware of all around them, including attacks.

Heralds/Dragons: (They're low to balance flight. Figure out something clever)

Treemen: Trees aren't noted for being very quick on the uptake.

>>6481713
Didn't mean that >>, my bad. Also, I screwed up and put Treemen in the middle, derp.

God Machines ~ Old Ones > Avatars > Heralds ~ Dragons > Treemen

>>6481713
Heralds and Dragons make sense to me being low. Not in a way I can really put into words properly, though.
Nevertheless, I'd put them above Treemen.

>>6481735

Well, Heralds also have plenty of Dakka, if we are going by what was said earlier, calling down the Wrath of God upon the heathens.

>>6481743
That would probably count as options, for use in Magic phase - For example, Fire and Brimstone: Area Attack, radius 7", 20 Attacks, Damage 3.
Of course, that would be an expensive one.

>>6481758
7" is too much, dude. Make it, like, 5.

Initiative
Heralds > old ones = avatar > godmachine > treemen
Dragons*

God Machines : are still slowed by a normal man's capacity, the machines may be perfect but the pilot isnt.
Old Ones/Avatars/Treemen: as stated in >>6481713
Dragons/heralds: Flight is a core mechanic and should be figured out on its own. Heralds are created to fight they dont think they dont hesitate they know exactly what to do, nothing is faster than a perfectly clear mind with a perfect body. Dragons need to have a weak stat here or in morale which ever is decided to be they're weakness, since they have two special benefits over the rest of the tier (ranged attack and flight)

So, final lineup, by consensus looks like it's:

Move: Heralds > Avatars > God Machines = Dragons > Treemen > Old Ones
Wound: Treemen > Old Ones = Dragons > God Machines > Avatars = Heralds
Initiative: God Machines = Old Ones > Avatars > Heralds = Dragons > Treemen
Morale: Herald > Avatar > Dragons = God Machines > Old Ones = Treemen

Does anyone disagree?

>>6481835

Treemen need to have lower move than old ones. I shouldn't have to explain that one.

Oh, and considering how they're shaping up to be somewhat underpowered stat-wise, Treemen had better hit like a fucking bus.

>>6481776
>Heralds are created to fight they dont think they dont hesitate they know exactly what to do, nothing is faster than a perfectly clear mind with a perfect body.
On the other hand, they're timeless. They may not tend towards rapidity.

>Dragons need to have a weak stat here or in morale which ever is decided to be they're weakness,
t seems like we all agree they should have lowish morale

>since they have two special benefits over the rest of the tier (ranged attack and flight)
We didn't agree that they have a ranged attack.

>>6481850
>Treemen need to have lower move than old ones. I shouldn't have to explain that one.
I disagree with you. Sure, trees are slow, but on the other hand, they're creatures of this earth, very much in tune with it. The Old Ones, on the other hand, are bloated beasts of otherworldliness, drifting ponderously through a reality they are no longer really in tune with.

>>6481835
M:heralds10>avatar9> dragons+godMac8>tree7>old6
W:tree6>dragon/old5>godM4>avatar/herald3
I:Herald10>avatar/old9>dragon/godM8>tree7
L:herald*>avatar10>godM9>tree/old7>dragon6
S:5or6:god machine =biggest ever
5: Dragons= almost the biggest ever
4-5:tree,oldones = grow in time
4:avatar = max
3:herald = a dumped sat to balance I:10 unbreakability and the ranged attacks they have

>>6481900
They don't have any range attacks by default, we've merely considered giving them some powerful ones as options. Those should be very expensive options. Other Heralds could be more melee oriented, with a handful of melee options.

>>6481891
>>6481850
compromise then?
give them equal move stats

>>6481891

I'm still not seeing how anything would rank in as slower than an animate tree. Hell, Treemen should have a special that involves taking root (move = 0) to gain something (wound regeneration?).

>>6481933

Works for me. Again, not a TT guy, and I understand that realism takes a backseat to balance.

>>6481850
ive always considered treemen should be understated and make up for it in special abilities, regeneration being a main one
>>6481853
>>On the other hand, they're timeless. They may not tend towards rapidity.
Initiative is a function of capacity, these things were made by a perfect being to destroy things it didnt like. think matrix agents.
>>t seems like we all agree they should have lowish morale
thumbs up take >>6481900 and bump dragons up one

>>We didn't agree that they have a ranged attack.
i didnt htink that was up for debate. Are there dragons who didnt have a breath weapon?

>>6481932
unbreakability and Init 10 are still enuff to make high dmg also a serious problem. But an upgrade to 4 on size is reasonable.

Keep in mind that what's balancing out a lot of the Heralds' vast scaled ass-fuckery is the fact that they're a nigger to get out. It's easily possible that by the time it gets into play, there are almost no Christians left, while the enemy retains most of its units, and thus the Herald is set upon by many units - remember that it also has the least wounds --and thus it's destroyed after doing little damage, compared to other Primaries.

Also,
>>6481850
Treemen have the most wounds out of anyone, they could shake off a hit by a bus. But I'm thinking we ought to give them a wide variety of magic phase-using options which allow them to cause non-damage problems for enemies. Example:
Vines - Target unit moves at half speed.

>>6481962
agree

So now we're at:

Move: Heralds > Avatars > God Machines = Dragons > Treemen = Old Ones
Wound: Treemen > Old Ones = Dragons > God Machines > Avatars = Heralds
Initiative: Old Ones > Avatars > Heralds = Dragons = God Machines > Treemen
Morale: Herald > Avatar > Dragons = God Machines > Old Ones = Treemen

Changes are very slight

>>6481952
> Are there dragons who didnt have a breath weapon?

Specifically, Chinese dragons. It's not so much that they DON'T have a breath weapon, as that not all of them DO. Chinese dragons are typically portrayed as benevolent creatures, and aerial fiery rape isn't exactly benevolent. It SHOULD be an option they can take, albeit a semi-costly one.

>>6481962

Were we also going with a time limit on all Christian summoned units?

>>6482001
Heralds: 10M 2W 6I 10L 5S
Avatars: 9M 2W 7I 9L 4S
God Machines: 8M 3W 6I 7L 3S
Dragons: 8M 4W 6I 8L 4S
Treemen: 5M 5W 5I 8L 3S
Old Ones: 5M 4W 8I 7L 5S

>>6482005
Nah, the low wounds + low defense thing + high priority target is already going to inflict a very harsh time limit on them.

>>6482062
Are Heralds using 4 instead of 5 too?

>>6482053
has my approval

>>6482080
They were intended to when I suggested the rule, but I think that they don't yet.

>>6482084
Well, you're who I was waiting for, so I'll put it on the wiki now then.

>>6482053
>> I6= god machines and heralds I7= avatars
a person no matter how well trained isnt divine, which is proven in GM/avatars why are heralds=GM
S = GM3
"made by Vulcan himself. Each is the size of the Collosus, "

>>6482087

If so, they might need bumped to 3W instead of 2. Otherwise they'll be glass cannons and not worth the points to field them.

>>6482106
"made by Vulcan himself. Each is the size of the Collosus, " are equal to "Massive druidic trees"?

>>6482127

The first is fluff description and overstatement. God Machines are not literally 107' tall. And even if so, regular trees topping 100' aren't a rarity.

>>6482106
>>6482127
The collosus is only so big... size 5, by comparison, is castle-size. These are supposed to be pretty big critters, guys.

>>6482127
>>6482106
I used the sizes we agreed upon when we were talking fluff...

Wait, since when are God Machines the size of the Collosus? We agreed a long time ago that they would be like 40 feet tops

>>6482151
>regular trees topping 100' aren't a rarity.
Not if they're redwoods. They're unheard of in Britain.

Sorry guys... It seemed like a boast-y sort of thing that people might say describing them. I guess it was misleading. My bad, I'll take it out.

>>6482171

In modern times, sure. In antiquity, before the crown decided they'd be better suited as ship masts and ceiling beams? Somewhat more common. And with druidic magicks tinkering with the growth process, animate trees are going to be fuckhuge.

>>6482179
nah keep it its a nice fluff boast

>>6482189
Indeed.

So... now we're done with how tall the God Machines aren't...
I like the rooting to regenerate idea.

What if we called taking root a Special Rule, which requires a Move action, and does nothing besides preventing them from moving, but then we can have Options require them to be rooted.
Regeneration could be one such option; it happens in the Magic phase, and restores a health level.

>>6482234
Sounds good to me.

>>6482234

This will turn them into a huge ranged magnet.

...which is great, because they also have the wounds to laugh off most non-fire ranged attacks.

>>6482234
perhaps give them the option to instead of regenerating a wound they can influence the plant life around them/use their own roots and make all (or one depending on how powerful we want this) enemy units within range move at half speed next turn, as it makes the tree,s and shurbs seem to reach out and grab soldiers while fields of grass become matts of loose slippery roots or something

>>6482278
trees and shrubs normally count as difficult terrain and thus give movement penalties. Maybe allow the owner of the tree to place one piece of difficult terrain within 6" of the tree

>>6482278
a range of say 12 inches?

>>6482292
I was thinking more the lone trees or shrubs that would't normally both movement, though creating a patch of forest works too, then that allows the woaden to use their ambush bonus a bit more often.

>>6482278

I'd say that taking root should be the conditional that gives treemen access to a lot of their specialty options.

>>6482292

Convert one area from normal to difficult, or from difficult to impassable?

>>6482278
Combine with the vines somebody mentioned earlier:

Vines: Range 12. During the magic phase, a Treeman may choose to slow a unit in range. The unit will be unable to move at more than half its move value in its next move phase.

Brief question.

Who the fuck came up with the logic that huns are eldritch horrors?

>>6482454
I did
I realized they would be fast, and bound to their machines. Sort of like tekkaman, but instead of BEAAAMMMMMS they have ARROOOOWWS and ride OH GOD at one point this was a horse instead of PEGAS, and then add more horror

>>6482454
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/6419240/#6419665

They were mongols at first, though. They became Huns when everyone realized Mongols weren't around yet.

>>6482454

I think it came about somewhere around Grimdark Jesus and the Perpetual Crucifixion Machine. And the Huns themselves aren't eldritch horrors, they've made a dark pact with a race of eldritch horrors so that they can survive in the face of multiple factions with FUCKWIN GODTECH.

>>6482459
>>6482471
>Claims to have done something and is immediately proven a liar

>>6482471
... How the fuck did you do that?

>>6482486
I remembered which thread it was in, so I opened the thread on sup/tg/ and used ctrl+F to find the correct post. It's not that big a deal.

>>6482478
I thought we were actually making connections with actual mythology here.

Roman mythology producing mechs, Biblical angels, Indian, Chinese and Celtic mythology, everything staying relatively true to its roots...

AND SUDDENLY OUT OF NOWHERE HUNS WITH ELDRITCH HORRORS.

They're not related at all. Heck, it'd be more sensible to make the huns be ruled over by a hierarchy of vampires than eldritchorrorslol.

This isn't Saya no Uta or the Cthulhu Mythos. I thought we were basing this off of reality.

>>6482511
at that point they where Mongols
but just roll with it its awesome

>>6482511
We're basing it off of perversions of reality. RL Roman gods had nothing to do with mechs. RL Jesus was not imprisoned inside a huge machine for centuries, and the RL Christian faith would be decidedly averse to what the in-universe Christians believe to be Jesus' teachings. Jade Wagons are pretty much pulled from someone's ass.
And the Hun Elder Horrors are actually a perversion of the RL Huns' animist spirit worship. There's a story about that on the Writefaggotry page.

>>6482511
>I thought we were basing this off of reality.

HAHAHAHAHAHA no. We're pulling heavily from myth because it's easier than shit from scratch. Someone had to be the Cthulhutech faction, and as nobody really knew Mongol mythology when this kicked off, they drew the short straw.

so we've got the primaries stated now, do we want to flesh out special rules/abilities more or get to work on the mercenaries?

>>6482454

They got eldritch horrors because we decided they should be the "biological" faction, in contrast to the others. Then someone decided it'd be neat to tie in Lovecraft/eldritch horrors as a corruption of their shamanism, where the spirits they contacted turned out to be something very different.

>>6482511
>Celtic mythology

Actually, this got added in relatively late. Originally they were going to be more along the lines of steampunk terrorists.

>Indian

Indians hadn't been added yet when we decided to give the Huns (who were then called Mongols) eldritch horrors attached to their bodies.

>Heck, it'd be more sensible to make the huns be ruled over by a hierarchy of vampires than eldritchorrorslol.

Once again, it's a perversion of their shamanism.

>I thought we were basing this off of reality.

No, not really. It was mostly based around "Hey, this sounds like a cool idea, how do we make it work?"

Eldritch horrors are a very cool idea.

bump

guess we can get started on the mercs
all of them where tertiaries except for the Peri machines right?

>>6483757
Correct.

>I thought we were basing this off of reality.
So the gigantic Roman mecha didn't clue you in?

The Old Ones need a proper special ability. Either something having to do with causing the enemy to shit their pants or maybe popping out baby shoggoths.

>>6484300
I'd go with the fear aspect, perhaps a break test at the end of every round of combat?

Brief idea for Christian ascendance - although it's a bit heavy on recording.

Every time that a Christian tertiary unit/regiment/squad rolls the maximum number on a die (whether d6 or d10 or d847), tally it down. Every time a model in that unit dies, roll 2d6 (taking notes from WHFB - can be changed).
If the number rolled is equal or less than the number of [maximum number] rolled divided by the turn number, the dead model ascends.

It's just a basic concept.

>>6484423

I dunno, how useful would that be, though? If we're using the Old One as a heavy hitting melee unit, wouldn't forcing enemy units to break after each round make actually killing said units a pain?

Something like that (along with requiring a morale test to come withing X inches of the Old One) might be good if we diminished the Old One's melee role. That way it could be used as an effective guard for the warriors, allowing them to harass the enemy with arrows with a greater degree of safety.

WHERE THE FUCK DID IT GO?! CHECK THE WIKI, WHERE IS IT?!

>>6484690
Um, it's up. Not sure what your problem is.

>>6484541
How about secondary and lower units that engaged in melee with the Old One in the past round have to make morale checks to act the next round?

>>6484441
Do we even have special rules for Disciples turning into Ascendants without the ritual? That goes very counter to the fluff established (what with the final death and all).

Bump.

>>6482001
I like how the Move and Morale lists are the same

>>6484541
Has Terror, but better so -2 penalty on the morale roll?
So vast and terrifying that units need to pass a morale check or are frozen with fright and can't do anything?

At this rate, celts better be able to animate armies of treemen. Because, aside from their wounds, they're pretty darn useless. They're slow, they're easy to scare and they attack as fast as a hooker on blow.

>>6485057
>>6485551

The paralyzation idea looks pretty neat, but I think it'd be difficult to balance.

>>6485618

IIRC Treemen were the only Primary that'd have multiple models per unit.

You also have to keep in mind that Celts have more than just Treemen. It's ok for their Primary to be a little lackluster if the army as a whole works.

>>6484441

For the Ascendants you just have to spend a turn to perform a ritual.

This thread needs some writefaggotry. I'm just making this up as I go, and this is not intended to be serious. Just some randomness.

LOCATION: OLYMPUS, HOME OF THE GODS.

The Gods and Goddesses surveyed the newest models that he'd created, updated versions of the God Machines. Mars was blathering on about 'more spikes' or something, Pluto...

What the? Vulcan rubbed his eyes. Pluto NEVER came up to Olympus. But here he was.

"Lord Pluto? Does the Machina Averni meet with your approval?" The blacksmith asked his uncle as he walked over. His bronze legs moved far more smoothly than the old ones.

"Yes, although I cannot tell what function it will serve on the battlefield." The Lord of the Underworld studied the Machine dedicated to him. It was rather featureless, and the metal had taken on a nondescript, dull hue after the dedication. In fact, unless he concentrated, Vulcan's attention just slid away from it.

The helm was basic, and completely black, unlike the rest of it. But the head...it only had one feature. The eyes, glowing with deep blue light. The cloak that covered it was also black, and Vulcan was particularly proud of it. It wasn't really fabric, but a sort of liquid metal inside a clear skin, like black quicksilver. It's weapon was a Bident, just like the Pluto's.

"But the function can wait. Do you have any idea why Jupiter is so intent on capturing Boudica?"

"Lord Pluto, this IS Jupiter we're talking about. What do you think he wants with her?" Vulcan smirked.

"Oh, of course. He's going to tap that like one of Bacchus' kegs."

END.

>>6485706
From the sound of it, treemen are born-and-bred cannon-bait.

Do not know why, but I feel slightly irritated that one of the factions has to steal from another faction.
Could've Taken Machines just be mercenary stuff? Couldn't we come up with something a bit more thematic for Celts?

>>6485869
>"Oh, of course. He's going to tap that like one of Bacchus' kegs."

I found that far more amusing than I should have

>>6485961
The thing is, a group of Treemen getting attacked by artillery would probably just root in and regenerate. Whoops, there goes your ammo supply for nothing.

>>6485618
They should be getting some good magic options when we get to that.

>>6486482
Regeneration is an option. It's a good one, but not all Treemen will have it.

Since nothing else is going down, I reckon it's about time to get started in on weapons.

>>6486797
What'd you have in mind?

>>6486797
Hand Weapons: Basic armament of soldiers and peasants everywhere. These are short swords, hatchets, knives, and any other manner of weapon that is held in one hand. No bonuses or penalties.

Spear: the quintessential spear, by far the most used and useful weapon in the history of the world. Units in formation armed with spears can attack if they are in the 2nd rank.

Pike: A longer variety of the spear, this weapon allows more iron and steel points to come to bear on the enemy. Allows the first 3 ranks in a formation to attack

Great Weapons: These are up-scaled version of hand weapons, often requiring both hands to use. Their sheer weight adds to the force of blows. Models equipped with great weapons add +1 to their attack modifiers

>>6486928
Different standard weapons available to each faction. These standard weapons can be attached to the primaries, secondaries and tertiaries depending on what they are, probably with same benefit.

For example, a claymore is a gigantic fucking sword. For sake of damage purposes, it will probably increase your Size by 1. Let's say it's a Celtic & Hun weapon.
Bronze Boars/Taken Machines, Woaden, Warriors and perhaps Old Ones - along with all of their quarterly units - can use claymores. Due to their otherworldly nature, Treemen and Spiritkin cannot use weapons and most stick to their natural weapons or special weaponry.

>>6486990
That's not really the setup we've been talking about in the past.

>>6486946
I don't know how that'll work with the rules we actually have...

>>6487006
So, what, you've never considered the concept that some factions may use certain categories of weapons that other factions simply will not touch? Or is it that you haven't considered weapons having modifiers in that manner?

Or is it the fact that only certain units should be able to use weapons? Would you prefer weapons to be quaterly only and have everything else capable of carrying such things with preset?

>>6487006
>>6487023
We get it, you don't want people to abuse your precious, special flower of original content.

How do you think weapons should work then, whiner?

>>6487029
The idea was that we'd have a full list of basic weapons, and some units would have "Bonus" weapons, like the Cho-ko-nu, and similarly some units would be restricted from certain weapons.

>For example, a claymore is a gigantic fucking sword. For sake of damage purposes, it will probably increase your Size by 1. Let's say it's a Celtic & Hun weapon.

I don't think it fits for the Huns to be wielding 2-handed swords. They strike me as predominately bows and spears / javelins.

>>6486990
increasing size also reduces damage done to the model. better to just give it a flat + bonus to the attack roll or give it an extra attack

How about things like
Sword: 1 extra attack
Axe/Mace: +1 Damage
as basic weapons

>>6487062
... That doesn't vary much from what I stated now, does it?

>>6487069
>For sake of damage purposes, it will probably increase your Size by 1.
>For sake of damage purposes
>damage purposes
>damage
>not armour
>damage
>just damage
>doesn't increase size for anything else

>>6487069
Not if it's only for the sake of damage done

>>6487068
I know, I know - I was just posting an example of the sort of systems I had in mind.

>>6487075
That's a bit too much now.
We don't want each weapon to be absolutely unique.
Swords, axes and maces all fit quite snuggly as 'hand weapons'.

For more iconic weapons and radically different weapons, feel free to give them special attributes, though.

Weapons:
Spear, Pike, Javelin, shortsword, longsword, battle axe, bow, repeating crossbow, composite bow.

Armors
Leather, Chain, Breastplate, Buckler, Shield, Tower Shield

>>6487114
The point of basic weapons is to make players able to customize basic units, not to say "well, he has this sort of hand weapon instead"

>>6487154
if a guy wants to outfit his dudes with axes instead of swords, he can without any in game penalty.

>>6487139
You forgot "Mace" from the weapon list. And repeating crossbows are special weapons for the Chinese.

>>6487162
>And repeating crossbows are special weapons for the Chinese.

Well, that and composite bows might need to be special weapons for the Huns as well.

>>6487158
But axes work differently than swords, thus they should have different rules. This is the basic assumption we were working on when we were balancing everything.

>>6487139
"Bow" should probably be divided into long and short.

Weapons:
Spear, Pike, Javelin, shortsword, longsword, battle axe, shortbow, longbow, mace

Armors
Leather, Chain, Breastplate, Buckler, Shield

Faction unique:
Repeating crossbow (China), tower shield (Rome), composite bow (Huns), Claymore (Celts)

Basic weaponry that perhaps just about everyone has access to:

Hand Weapons (no bonuses)
Two Hand Weapons (rerolls to-hit rolls)
Polearms (attack in two ranks if in formation)
Great Weapons (increases size by 1 for offensive purposes, not defensive)
Shield (increases size by 1 for defensive purposes, not offensive)

Some of these make more sense for some factions than others.

Romans are likely to use hand weapons and shields and polearms and shields, while Celts are more likely to use hand weapons and shields, two hand weapons and great weapons.

>>6487215

I think we'd be better off treating each piece of equipment separately. There's too big of a difference between an axe, a shortsword, a longsword, and a mace to put them all under the same category.

How about
Mace: +1 Damage
Spear/Pike: +1 attack
Swords/axes: As basic weapons
Javelin: 6" range, +1 damage
Shortbow: 12" range
Longbow: 26" range

Leather: As basic
Chain/Plate: +1 to defensive to-hits
Buckler: As basic
Shield: +1 defensive to hit

>>6487205
Rome used auxiliaries for their cavalry and archers. When it came to archer auxiliaries they mostly used syrians, which were armed with composite recurve bows. So no, huns wouldn't be the only faction with composite bows.

>>6487243
Crossbow, 12" +1 damage
Tower shield: Increase damage reducer by 1?
Composite bow: 18", +1 damage
Cho-ko-nu: +2 attacks
Claymore: +2 damage

>>6487234
Depends. Are we going for a more streamlined approach here, or are we going 40k 2nd Edition where you needed a seperate *rulebook* just to list the qiurks of every weapon in the game?

Shortsword - bonus against chainmail
Longsword / axe - bonus against leather
Mace - good against all armor types

Spear units from the 2nd row can attack in formation. Small bonus against cavalry charges.
Pike units from the 2nd and 3rd rows can attack while in formation. Larger bonus against cavalry charges.
Javelin short range, mediocre damage.

Shortbow - short range (dur)
Longbow - longer range (dur)
Repeating crossbow - as shortbow, but with additional attacks
Composite bow - as longbow but with added damage

Claymore - defensive bonus against spear / pike units

Buckler small - small defensive bonus, but useless against arrows
Shield - larger defensive bonus, effects arrows
Tower shield - largest defensive bonus, most effective against arrows.

With how many times ideas were shot down for 'being too complex' these weapon rules sure have a lot of fucking exceptions and special notes

>>6487249

I'd be inclined to count them as simply using short or longbows. That or give the Huns a better form of bow unique to them.

>>6487319
These weapon ideas are basically in the form they've been planned all along. And adding a bonus isn't that complex, considering nobody changes armament mid-battle.

>>6487290
>>6487243
I like these ones...

>>6487370
adding a bonus here and there isn't, sure.

but when every single fucking thing about the unit changes it in some way it quickly becomes MODIFIERS ON MODIFIERS ON MODIFIERS, MODIFYING MODIFIERS

>>6487334
eldritch bows.

Huns get compound bows made from shoggoths.

>>6487215
I personally prefer something to this tune. Keep it consolidated. Only start making exceptions for particularly unique/characterful circumstances.

I think we should only have weapon bonuses when equipping units with special stuff. We don't need to stat out the woaden's axe and Roman's gladius, since they can be assumed to be part of the unit.

Stat ranges on the bows/javelins, determine how many ranks in the formation can attack at once when using polearms, and leave it.

>>6487464
We were assuming that they would have these bonuses when we did the balancing...

>>6487492

Not really. Especially since some of the proposed bonuses include making units count a tier higher for defensive/offensive purposes.

Going with >>6487215
>Shield (increases size by 1 for defensive purposes, not offensive)

A unit of Woaden with shields would count as primaries for defensive purposes, +1 from the shield and +1 from their inherent bonus.

>>6487549
size, not tier.

And I honestly don't think woaden would be allowed to take shields. they are buffed up on drugs and painted in woad. they run into battle naked with berserk fury

>>6487549
Yeah, the bonuses we planned on were more in line with
>>6487290
>>6487243

Default gear: the weapons a unit has by default. The specific weapons vary between units, but doesn't affect their point value, and (with a couple exceptions) doesn't affect stats.

Ranges for ranged attack weapons: Javelins 6 inch range, shortbows/crossbow 12 inch, longbows/composite bow 24 inch

Customization example: Woaden can (wielding one weapon by default) choose to take a second hand weapon, granting +1 attack, or they can choose to take a 2h weapon for +1 damage.