It uses multiple names for the same places, that's all.

>>6138556
So the Hedge is the Astral is the Shadow is the Abyss?

With the power of HEART obviously.

>Twilight
awesomeface.jpg

Wait, there's a world called "Hedge" now? Just Hedge? That's the lamest thing ever.

The Hedge.

Most of the OP's stuff has a 'The' in front of it.

Earth.
Twilight=Hedge=passage to reach Shadow
Shadow tunnels through Abyss to reach Supernal Realms, parts of which are equivalent to Arcadia/Hell/Underworld/Wyld/Heaven.
Astral=Internal realms and Dreams, usually only applicable to wizards.

>>6138674
The Hedge. As in the thing that separates fields.

>>6138692
Or realities.

>>6138661
The Hedge is one of those borderworld places. It's called the Hedge because of the soul tearing thorns all over the place.

>>6138677
My idea of it is actually that there's a sort of 5 point star of it, and each branch is technically the same area, just "overlain" on each other.

The Hedge, Shadow, and the Underworld are all branches to the "points" of Arcadia, the Primal Wild, and Stygia.

By going through the Hedge, which corresponds to any place on the planet, you can still get to Arcadia.
Presumably, since the Shadow and the Underworld both are also more or less connected to the topology of the real world, there will be 'Gates' to Stygia and the Primal Wild.

There would also likely be star edges that lead to Aether and Pandaemonium. Demons and Quashmallim are already proof that it exists.

>>6138677
So the Supernal Realms are the ultimate power source for most nWoD supernaturals?

Hell = Pandemonium = Possessed/Demons/Lucifuge
Arcadia = Arcadia = Changelings/True Fae
Stygia = Underworld = Ghosts/Bound
Aether = Heaven = Prometheans (Theoretically - Divine Fire = Forces + Prime)
Primal Wild = ?

Which leaves just the spirit-type supernaturals and Vampires as being totally of the Fallen world, right?

>>6138527
Also Twilight is a state of liminality, not an actual place. It's an in between state. Not quite in the real world, not quite in any other.

What the hell are Hell and Skein? And the Astral Realms. I only know of them in general times, and it seems to be something like going into your personal place.

What, no far realm?

>>6138829
Hell is the Inferno. The Skein is a pattern or path that links dreams together - only Changelings can access it, Mages can't.

>>6138820
>Primal Wild = ?
Werewolves, you ponce.

Is there a reason you've put up a picture of the 4e D&D cosmology?

>>6138853
Really? That's interesting, tell me more about it. It sounds less like a place and more like a force to be tapped into, like the Wyrd.

>>6138527
magic

>>6138858
Thanks, and fuck you.

So almost all supernaturals are basically Supernal beings that have a vague connection to, and may even be able to travel to, their given realm. There's something that could be done with that, I think.

So, what should the roads to Heaven and Hell be like? If the Shadow leads to the Primal Wild, the Underworld to Stygia and the Hedge to Arcadia, then there should be something there, too (Inferno doesn't really give a method for getting there, outside of mentioning that it should be very hard).

>>6138829

So, pretty much all of the Supernaturals have their own 'No Mortals Zone'. Some of them might overlap, but it seems like most of them don't. Werewolves have the Spirit Realm, Fae have Arcadia, Ghosts have the afterlife, Mages have wherever the heck Mages go. The point is, they don't work like the real world, and bad things happen to humans who go there.

In between each of these otherworlds and the real world, there's some sort of barrier. The Hedge keeps you out of Arcadia, the Abyss keeps you out of the Supernal, etc, etc.

It's... kind of formulaic.

You have the Fallen Realm - Earth. The Fallen Realm coexists with the Twilight which is a altered state of being and not actually a different world. Both of those board the Gauntlet that leads to the Shadow Realm where spirits dwell. And somewhere deep in the Shadow is the Underworld. Going to the other side you have the Abyss. The Hedge is the Arcadian section of the Abyss. On the other side of that there are five supernal realms. There's also the Astral Realm, but can't remember what it actually does and where it is.

>>6138950
Aether = Heaven = Prometheans

I would change it to Heaven = Aether = Prometheans but whatever.

About the Underworld and Stygia.
Both are time and time again mentioned to be a different place. The Underworld actually leads somewhere but the nature of Stygia is different. Stygia is not unlife, it is death, stillness and matter while the Underworld is a place that's really full of pseudo-life located under the Shadow Realm, not across the Abyss like where Stygia should be.

>>6138972
>And somewhere deep in the Shadow is the Underworld.
Shadow and the Underworld aren't related. Though some Arvernan Gates may open to Shadow.

Each route begins from the Fallen world.
Fallen World -> Shadow -> Primal Wild
Fallen World -> Hedge -> Arcadia
Fallen World -> Underworld -> Stygia

It's also possible that Aether and Pandaemonium don't have traditional... bordermarches, like Shadow, the Hedge, and the Underworld.

>>6139012
Each of the bordermarches crosses the Abyss.

My theory isn't that Stygia is in the Underworld, it's that to get to Stygia, you have to go through the Underworld, just like you have to go through the Hedge to get to Arcadia. I'm mostly extrapolating off of Changeling.

>>6139063
Actually quotan the Mage core:

It is said that within the Shadow Realm there are caves or
holes in the ground that, were one to follow them far enough
— usually beyond all hope of return — they would lead to a
gray realm of eternal stillness. The Underworld.
Those entering the Underworld first come to a hallway
that appears to be endless, with many doors along its walls.
It resembles a mausoleum to some, a mansion to others, or
even a rough cave to others. Traveling to the Underworld is
the work of masters of Death. Lesser mages would be foolish
to attempt it. It is said that the shades there can fool men into
staying forever, even making them think they have escaped
back into the living world, while their bodies starve to death
in the dark pit.
Even Moros mages fear the Underworld. Their power
comes from Stygia, the Supernal Realm where death is a
lesson and balm for a weary soul, a place of waiting while the
soul prepares for the next stage in its journey. The Underworld
is a mistake, a casualty of the Abyss, where death no
longer rises to the Supernal and instead draws things down,
ever down, to lower worlds of non-being.
Nonetheless, there are reasons to go there, for it is said that
the ghosts of even Atlantean mages of old can be found there,
if one is lucky enough or has an Artifact that provides a
sympathetic connection. It is also rumored that the ruins of
Atlantis itself exist there, a shade of the city’s former glory
but still providing bold mages the opportunity for plunder
unequaled in the living world.

>>6139089
I know what you mean. There should be five Abyssal realms for each Supernal one. SHOULD be.

Here's the Mage version of the world.

I can't imagine that Hell and Heaven lead to Pandaemonium and Aether. Those two likely don't have anything connecting them.

Now, imagine this less as a star, and more like a five sided pyramid. The bottom part is the Fallen World, which also includes Twilight. The 'sides' are the bordermarches: The Underworld, The Hedge, and The Shadow. By traveling through these bordermarches, you can get to the Supernal, or at least the sharded, Watchtower areas, and avoid the Abyss, which is in the center of the pyramid.

The bordermarches are like traveling through the desert, while going straight through the Abyss to the Supernal is like walking through napalm and acid and arsenic.

>>6139093
Geist refutes that by saying that only some of the gates of the Underworld open to Shadow, which is only mentioned in a sidebar going into the theory that Geist are part Spirit.

>>6139224
Further.

Some mages believe there is another world below the
Fallen World, a place even further removed from the Supernal
World. This place is called the Lower Depths. It is
theorized that creatures from the Lower Depths might occasionally
find their way to the Fallen World, where they
probably need a lot of Mana to survive — Mana best taken
from Awakened sources.

So:

(Lower Depths)-(Underworld)-(Shadow Realm)
(Shadow Realm)-|Gauntlet|-((Fallen World)(Twilight))-|Abyss|
|Abyss|-(Supernal Realms)
|Abyss| = |The Hedge + 4 other realms|
(Supernal Realms) = ((Arcadia)(Stygia)(Pandemonium)(Primal Wild and Aether))

[Astral] - the inner realm.
[Astral] =/~ Skein?

There is most likely no heaven or hell in the classical meaning of the world.

>>6139224
That can't be true, since it's possible to get through to Arcadia through the Hedge.

Which is also why I think that Shadow leads to the Primal Wild. The two are incredibly similar.
Likewise, the Underworld as presented in Geist is similar to Stygia, and even has the Cthonians, which are said in Summoners to be Stygian spirits that got stuck when the Ladder fell.

Perhaps they got stuck in The Underworld, which didn't exist when the world was whole, but was created by the Exarchs kicking down the Ladder.

Book of Spirits also suggests that there are deep, dark, secret places where the Gaia exists. Well, if you can get from anywhere on the planet to a similar place in The Hedge, and the same thing happens with The Shadow and The Underworld, it's likely that those two are also connected like The Hedge is.

>>6139272
Gates.
Mages don't use gates.
Geist can't travel directly to the Shadow to check.
Nothing refutes anything here.

ITT we assume Acadia(MtA) and Arcadia(CtL) are the same. Despite the intentional lack of evidence in either direction.

>>6139320
In the crossover books for Mage and Changeling - the Hedge is the area of the Abyss closest to Arcadia. Also the Abyss itself can be traversed but it destroys souls pretty much the same way the Hedge does.

On the other hand both Geist and Mage books so far speak of the Underworld as a completely different place. Stygia doesn't really even fit with Underworld or Lower Depths either.

>>6139348
Get the fuck out.

>>6139348
Ummm... nope. It's the same place as per the Changeling/Mage crossover explanations (Changeling line of books).

Old news bro.

How does this jive with the fact that people can actually get to Arcadia, which (as a Supernal Realms), should be impossible to get to?

Is the Arcadia the True Fae come from a Fallen echo of the Supernal Arcadia of Mage, or is it actually the same thing, complete with all that entails (and does that mean that the Exarchs are trying their damnest to seal it up again, before someone capable of disrupting their hold on the Supernal comes up the pipe)?

>>6139296
I have no clue what your diagram is supposed to mean.

Though I will say that it's probably not smart to only focus on Mage. The game line as a whole does nothing more than prove how little they actually know when mixed with the others. Mages are good at everything, but once you put them up against the people who're getting their powers directly from the realm (i.e. Changelings are getting their power right from Arcadia, not too unlikely that Sin-Eaters could be said to get their power from Stygia. Werewolves existed before the realms got buttfucked.), well, Sin-Eaters can do more with Death than a Mage could hope to until they become an Archmage, and a Changeling can do more with Fate with their Pledges, and Talecrafting, and the Skien.

Though it could be said that Sin-Eater's power comes from the Underworld, and the same could be said of Changelings and the Hedge. They get their powers from the way they lose their souls in the Hedge. It's just that Fae want pets and toys, while the things in Geist don't.

>>6139372
Well, if it is THE Arcadia, well... you now have an idea of what kind of people live in the Supernal Realms.
Question is, can the Exarchs defy the True Fae?
Its one thing that you're a oh shi- god, but the Fae been doing the 'supernal being' thing a lot longer then them.

>>6139385
But a Geist won't stop time, and a changeling won't create Shadow spirits.

>>6139385
I'm not. I'm focusing on Mage + Changeling + Geist. Truthfully I do not have Werewolf and Vampire just gives some hints that Vampires are creatures of the Abyss and not much more.

The diagram is the correspondence of realms as described in Mage, Changeling and Geist.

If I get bored I'll make a grand image of it.

>>6139372
That's why I think that Shadow, which is so similar to the Spirit arcana and the Primal Wild, might have passages to the Primal Wild somewhere in Shadow.
Likewise, the same for the Underworld and Stygia.

The Underworld goes lower and lower, but is completely subterranean. I think that you can find passages in The Underworld that lead to Stygia.

>>6139372
It's not possible for a mage to get to Arcadia and remain a mage. It's not possible for a human to get to Arcadia and remain human. Again - Changeling/Mage crossover.

>>6139372
The trick is that the mages actually access supernal power. No one else does. Theoretically, if those who are pulled through the Hedge can get to the watchtower they can scribe their name in the Tower and become awakened....but there is the problem that unlike mages, they are not called, not pulled through the abyss. They'll still be lost in Arcadia, with no way back save through the Faerie Lands....which is not a good place to be. Though....

Does anyone remember the tale of how Taliesin got his power?

>>6139224
I assume that is nMage right?

>>6139415
But a dead mage can still be a mage, even as a ghost.

>>6139432
Its not impossible, its EXTREMELY unlikely. As in 1 to Infinite-1.

>>6139446
>Does anyone remember the tale of how Taliesin got his power?
Anal raping a demon I think...

>>6139457
I thought you lost the connection to your avatar if you because a ghost. Thus losing your ability to affect reality.

>>6139467
You're in a wrong WoD my friend.

>>6139453
That's what we're talking about.
oMage and oWoD is a completely different clusterfuck of a cosmology.
oWoD has christian and deistic themes.
nWoD is like... completely gnostic.

>>6139474
so it's nWoD then? (aka not quite so darkness)

>>6139415
Like I said, Mages are Generalists.

>>6139393
You assume that the True Fae aren't Exarchs. Thought that probably isn't true. Then again, the summoned spirits from Arcadia aren't anything like the True Fae anyway. So the cosmology is like everything else in WoD, and you can't actually look at it as a whole, because everything contradicts what it doesn't give the wink-wink, nudge-nudge to.

>>6139418
Huh. Hadn't thought of Vampires being part of the Abyss. This also implies there won't be any other major games, if they are doing the lines based on the cosmology.
But I meant that the formatting of if makes it hard to read.

wuts the fimbulwinter?


bottom left corner

>>6139458
You're right actually.

>>6139484
More like darker.

>>6139484
Laughingabyssalhorror.jpg

This discussion makes me wonder if Promethians are containers of the Aether's essential power....

>>6139497
In Norse Mythology, it's the 8 year winter that comes before Ragnarok.

>>6139519
Yes.
That's what the DIVINE Fire is.

>>6139505
I never really saw either one as being darker than the other. Just their own style of dark.

Why do you say nWoD is darker?

>>6139493
There are still many realms left and they don't shy away from reusing realms.

Vampires are Abyssal in the way that there are legends that the first vampires were beasts from the Abyss. Completely inhuman cthulhu-esque blood sucking horrors.

>>6139525
Go read Asylum or Book of Secrets.

nWoD doesn't have a metaplot with silly characters like Samual Hauight.

>>6139525
nWoD took a dip into Cthulhu while nerfing the wacky brightness of oMage into the grim of nMage.

>>6139554
Also, the powerlevel is smaller while the enemies are stronger and less knowable. The antagonists in most WoD lines can't even be fought.

>>6139562
>wacky brightness

>>6139566
that's straight up Cthulu right there

>>6139566
SexyIrinamtheColossusglance.jpg

>>6139554
Is /tg/ full of retards that actually used the whole meta-plot?
Oh wait, I forgot it is...

>>6139634
The way you people talk about it here, Mage was all about the wackiness.

oMage also has that consensual reality bullshit.

>>6139648
I have no clue what that means.

>>6139646
I wouldn't say that. I hate Cthulhu, but like nWoD. Mostly because even the things that can't be fought can still be defeated, because that's what nWoD is about. Personal horror.

>>6139659
I never even played oWoD, but I get the feeling that the metaplot was more involved than most games. I've dealt with Exalted, and oWoD has more metaplot. Removing it is like pulling out half the setting. For instance, the Wyrm, Technocracy, consensual reality, Ecoterrorist werewolves...

>>6139661
It was actually a really sad and frustrating setting. The wacky brightness was just in the hope for what the world could be.

I mean, imagine seeing something incredibly beautiful and empowering, and trying desperately to convince an apathetic public of it, show them that they're not trapped and that they shouldn't be resigned. That was the real struggle of M:tAsc, the Technocracy was just a representation of it.

>>6139687
To be fair, the Wyrm and the Technocracy were versatile enough to take whatever form you wanted. Same thing with consensus reality, by its very nature. And ecoterrorists could be easily rationalized away by not being active right now or being at the other end of the city.
I've played a lot of games of Vampire and Mage, and the metaplot has pretty much never really tied the storyteller's hands on what he could and couldn't do.

I'm in an oWoD Werewolf game right now. First time playing it, but way back in the day, I used to buy occasional oWoD books to read, because they had a kinda cool story that I only partly grasped (generally got the books that hit the used book store). And then I got nWoD, and started playing it.

And now that I'm looking back into the older books, well, oWoD was pretty damn wacky. The various Fera were fucked up in so many ways, the PCs were so far from human that in some cases, they didn't even know what a phone was, and the fucking Pentex corp... It really seemed to be trying to hit home an idea that as long as you're fighting the good fight, it doesn't matter who you kill along the way, as long as they're mortal, and as long as you don't reveal your supernatural nature. Almost a D&D style black and white morality, with a clear level of delineation - Gaea - Goodest - Wyld - Good - Werewolves - Goodish - Spirits - Neutral - Mortals - Evilish - Pentex - Evil - Wyrm - Evilest.

>>6139827
Definitely one of the problems in Werewolf. It was a similar problem for Changeling, not that anyone played it. Less so in the others.

>>6139687
>For instance, the Wyrm, Technocracy, consensual reality, Ecoterrorist werewolves...
I didn't consider that the metaplot, I thought of that as the background and that the different backgrounds tied together.

It was the stuff that whatshisnuts woke up and decided to destroy the earth, etc that I totally left out. Or that one of the parts of the technocracy was infiltrated by the wyrm.

>I wouldn't say that. I hate Cthulhu, but like nWoD. Mostly because even the things that can't be fought can still be defeated, because that's what nWoD is about. Personal horror.
All I meant was you can't directly kill the big things even with all the firepower you can muster. Something you don't see much outside of a fantasy setting.

>>6139827
>Gaea - Goodest - Wyld - Good - Werewolves - Goodish - Spirits - Neutral - Mortals - Evilish - Pentex - Evil - Wyrm - Evilest.
I would say mortals were more apathetic or "get off my damn lawn"

>>6139908
Yeah, actually, hapless mortals were one of the few surefire ways to make the werewolves look like assholes. That and abused kinfolk.

>>6139827
>Gaea - Goodest - Wyld - Good - Werewolves - Goodish - Spirits - Neutral - Mortals - Evilish - Pentex - Evil - Wyrm - Evilest.
Am I the only one suddenly drawing comparisons with the Neo-Cons in the Bush administration here?
Christian god - bush administration - military - other nations - muslims - iraqis - terrorists

>>6139908
But in the context of Werewolf, the shit they do/are almost always assists the Weaver or the Wyrm. Just by being around, they help the enemy.

>>6139931

>>6139920
yeah, I played in two werewolf games. One was Apocalypse and the other was Wild West
Didn't feel nearly as bad if humans died in the West, cause hell, it's the WILD WEST

I miss that game, my Iron Rider (pre-Glass Walker) rocked

>>6139932
Right, but that was really just to show how omnipresent and powerful the Wyrm and Weaver were. The fact that they were pawns for these forces just made them more pitiable.

>>6139946
trolling the administration, yeah
you guys, no

>>6139946

>>6139931
I can see where you're coming from, but that's still insane. Go to bed.

>>6139972
uh yeah... it's 2pm here

>>6139951
>>6139932

Either way, I still feel worse about mortal death in nWoD than in oWoD. oWoD had a hell of a lot of 'Mortals are just clueless pawns who don't matter in the long run, and you might be better off without' going on in it. In nWoD, the only splat that really views mortals this way is Vampire, and they kinda need mortals still, too.

>>6139972
When did Neo-Cons start coming to /tg/?

>>6139978
You still need to go to bed.

>>6139990
How does noting the insanity of comparing fictional werewolves' perspectives on various phenomena to the Bush administration's attitudes on completely different things, apropos of nothing, make someone a neocon? BTW, I voted for Obama.

>>6138527
This troll is a Dance Commander.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of2WzZx9AhA

>>6139990
>Neo-Cons
>beards
>fat
>no sex
>reclusive

I don't see how you couldn't notice the connection.

Moderatefag here. Pro-gun, anti everything else GOP.

Fuck. No. Not political shit. We have enough threads on it by itself, it doesn't need to shit up other ones.

Quick, which is better, oWoD or nWoD?

>>6139981
>Either way, I still feel worse about mortal death in nWoD than in oWoD
Well, that's because there weren't any mortals left in oWoD. You were just killing hedge wizards and psychics and semi-hunters and shit.

>>6140044
oWoD fluff is deliciously resonant. Changeling especially, even if it didn't translate well to actual playing and anytime you did you wound up with guys in their late twenties who's frittered away their good years and were now stuck with creepy-ass Peter Pan complexes.

>>6140044
4e is best.

>>6140044
The edition wars that erupt when they meet, which are on the scale of a matter/anti-matter reaction.

>>6140060
oChangeling had it's moments, but even for fluff, I really like nChangeling. And nHunter. And then we have that one thread the other day about Changeling-oriented Hunter compacts. So delicious.

>>6140044
>Not Politics
>Edition War troll.

Ladies and gentlemen. /tg/ summerised in one post.

>>6140071
I still say the funnest thing to do with new mage is have the cabal track down and try to stop a new group of violent declaring that magic is everything and leaving manifestos like "Enigma will take you where dogma cannot."

>>6140080
>Changeling-oriented Hunter compacts
While I get why that's awesome, and more power to you, I trot out Changelings when I want to dial up the weird-scary in place of the bitey-scary. I don't want my Hunters knowing enough about them to know they're all the same kind of thing.

>>6140044
OWoD has better fluff, NWoD has better mechanics. If they'd kept all the original vampire clans plus the Cain/Antediluvian shit, NWoD vampire would be the best game in the world.

>>6140060
Try this:

1. Download the album "Wild Like Children" by Tilly and the Wall
2. Download the C:tD supplement "Autumn People"
3. Read the fluffstory while listening to the entirety of the album.

If you do not cry you are condemned to never develop a meaningful relationship with anyone ever.

>>6140087
A lot of what you said I don't understand because the Mage games have never grabbed me (Okay, except for that Void Engineers chronicle we played as Jovian Border Patrol - using SUPERSCIENCE! to save Earth from "aliens"!), but I must also disregard it because
>funnest

>>6140102
Strangely enough, "funnest" is a-okay by Mozilla's spellcheck.

>>6140118
Yeah, I'm gonna wait until a source with more credibility than Mozilla and Wiktionary accept it as a word.

>>6140126
Why? It's a perfectly cromulent word.

And getting back on topic...

I wonder if the paths to Pandemonium and Aether were collapsed? If you think about it like:

Hedge -> Open ->Arcadia
Spirit -> Closed -> Primal Wilds
Underworld -> Partially Closed -> Stygia

Then maybe the two 'path realms' were destroyed utterly for those two, forcing Demons and Quashmallim to make a much more difficult trek to get to the Fallen world (perhaps why they're relatively rare, compared to others). If this is the case, maybe the Heavenly and Hellish paths still have small pockets in the Abyss, containing Abyss-tainted versions of both. For that matter, maybe there are some small pockets of each realm left on Earth...

>>6140044

I just fuse both.

After Old World died, creation got remade, things fucked up again, and then New World came about. There's still elements of the Old World still around (Pentex still exists, the Technocracy is now a Hunter Compact, all people involved in oWoD's story have reincarnated, though not necessarily into who they were before) if you look hard enough, but the world's obviously gotten worse. And there's also the chance that this world might end, and lead to something even worse than this.

>>6140126
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/is-funnest-a-word.aspx

>>6140214
This was exactly my friend's approach. He figured Exalted predated oWoD, and with each cataclysm and recreation the supernatural elements in the world got weaker and weaker as more energy left the system.

>>6140221
I've always like the 'Exalted comes first' idea, despite the fact that it kinda rapes both settings. There's a good degree of commonality between Exalted and both WoDs, and those hidden links make things interesting.

oWoD all the way. Fuck World of Happy Duckness.

>>6139418
Actually, Secrets of the Watchtowers from Mage implies that Vampires are from the Lower Reaches, and Werewolves might or might not be the descendants of the half-spirit hound of the Oracle of the Primal Wild.

Basically, right after the fall, there was a massive invasion of Things from the Lower Depths that possessed corpses, ran around killing people, and generally caused a lot of trouble. The Oracle of Stygia didn't like that, so she cast a powerful spell from her Watchtower that banished the spirits, took the corpses they animated, and marched them back to the edge of reality to build a gate to ward them from the Earth.

Vampires, then, are the descendants of the rare one that manages to get through and possess a particularly evil or unholy mortal; Longinus, Vlad Dracula, "Belial", et cetera. That Vampires that have utterly lost their souls (and Humanity) are now revealed to be capable of creating new Vampires much more easily (no Willpower dot loss) is further evidence of this.

>>6141180
Would that make Vampires half-Lower Depths half-Spirit, then, thanks to the Strix, which are being implied to be the Beast? Or perhaps the Strix denizens of the Lower Depths?

>>6142239
>implying the Strix are the beast

>>6142247
Fuck you.

>>6141180
Where does the Abyssal implication come in, then?

Also, which books give hints as to the Lower Depths?

>>6140260

I also like the idea that Exalted came first. The way I have it done is like this: Exalted 1e, oWoD, Exalted 2e, nWoD. I don't feel like it rapes the settings, it just creates this big epic world. It also gives me a way to use the theme of cycles of birth and death that I like so much.

>>6141180
Mekhet clan book states that their first was some monstrous being from the Abyss. But vampires might be wrong on this, they really have no clue what they are.

arcadia IS a supernal realm, even if fae arcadia and mage arcadia are different.

>>6142985
Several Mage books and the Geist book.

>>6139931

>>6139931
cool.

>>6139931
orly?

>>6139931
oh, now look what you've done...

>>6139931
Yeah, garou were good in much the same way the Bush administration were good.

Any way you want it to. Because fuck continuity and metaplots.

>>6138527

>>124 posts and 9 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.

GOD DAMN, /TG/

>>6143722
>>6143713
>>6143705
>>6143640
STFU, nobody cares about your troll post.

>>6143300
They never really specified where it came from. Just that it involved a multitude of crooning mouths and bladed tentacles.

>>6143951

>>6139931
>terrorists
wat

When I scrolled past the OP image, it looked like some sort of mystical spider.

So we're all pretty much in agreement that

Stygia > Underworld > Geists
Arcadia > Hedge > Changelings
The Aether > ??? > Divine Fire (Qashalim/Prometheans)
Primal Wilds > The Shadow > Werewolves

The sticking point is Vampires. They could be from the Lower Depths, the Abyss, or (unlikely) Pandemonium or the Inferno. Since the next splat is likely going to be nDemon, I'm pegging [Demons] as coming from Pandemonium (as opposed to The Inferno). Are The Inferno (Hell, where true demons come from) and the Lower Depths the same thing?

>>6145166
Which game line mentions The Inferno?

>>6145166

If you mean that for example the Primal Wyld is accesible by the Shadow, HELL NO.

>>6145186
"Inferno".

>>6145186

Inferno, the sourcebook about Demons. Think cranked-up spirits of Vice.

>>6145186

Inferno is stand-alone generic supplement. Where there is a detailed, canonical and quite real Hell.
And demons, which are peculiar spirits.

>>6145202
>>6145207
>>6145217
Oh, I see. I need to check that book out.

>>6138820
I think Mage mentions the Underworld as a part of the Shadow or the Twilight.

>>6145195

Why not? The Hedge reaches into Arcadia, and it's even bets that the Underworld goes into Stygia. If it's a matter of "easy access" keep in mind there are such things as Rank 10 spirits, and I bet they'd hang around gateways to the Primal Wild.

>>6145252

I sort of see Twilight as sort of a side-dimension. It's essentially the exact same place as the Fallen World, only ghosts and spirits hang around. A sort of 5th dimension, one that normal people can't perceive but is certainly there.

As for the Underworld being part of the Shadow, I don't quite buy it, but I do buy it being close by. Ghosts have to cannibalize those spirits somehow to become Geists.

>>6145252

It suggest is. From the Shadow, yes.

>>6145270

There are two or one Arcadia. It's the group/storyteller's choice. Neither is canonical.
If there are 2, changeling Arcadia does not connect to supernal Arcadia.
Book of the Dead is not out already, but I bet that the connection will remain optional. As the Shadow is not connected to the so called Primal Wyld (which methinks magefags are too prone to consider a place, but that's me, surely fluff does state it thought to be a place).

>>6145305

Can spirits go through an Avernian Gate (in the Flesh, I mean)?

>>6145305
M:tA Page 283
"The Underworld
It is said that within the Shadow Realm there are caves or
holes in the ground that, were one to follow them far enough
— usually beyond all hope of return — they would lead to a
gray realm of eternal stillness. The Underworld."

>>6145317
In my book the arcadias are the same realm, but different ... parts of it. You know, with the supernatural realms being defined as infinite in M:tA. But yeah, it's optional.

>>6145356
hypotetical fluff is hypotetical and fluff

Goddamn, it's not that Maeljin aren't the lords of Hell. It's OPTIONAL, they'll never say anything more.

>>6138677
now imagine a campaign where the changelings going into 'The Hedge' end up in either 'Twilight' OR a 'passage to reach Shadow' because of some outside dickery

bricks may be shat

Anyhow WoD cosmology frankly doesn't have any problems that I might see

MAYBE the "geist are ghost that gobbled spirits" implies an odd connection between Underworld and Shadow

The rest seems quite right, if anything one could ask himself "ok how do I differentiate the Hedge from the Shadow", at first reading... but they're not illogical.

Is this Aion?

Arcadia, in the mage sense, exists as the mages understand Arcadia. Arcadia is the realm of metaphor and half-truth. The mages believe that Arcadia is whatever the fuck it is they believe it to be, and so, to them, Arcadia is just that. It works because Arcadia is a just as much a metaphor as it is a place. They choose to interpret it differently, and because of that it behaves differently.

Or whatever. I'm just saying its not like it's a 'real' place capable of being understood by mundane minds. The thing basically exists for the sole purpose of dicking with people, regardless of how you look at it.