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  • File : 1254723469.jpg-(133 KB, 520x742, 520px-4e_FR_cosmology.jpg)
    133 KB Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:17 No.6138527  
    Earth, Twilight, Shadow, Astral, Hedge, Underworld, Arcadia, Abyss, Hell, Skein, Supernal Realms...

    How does the nWoD cosmology hang together?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:20 No.6138556
    It uses multiple names for the same places, that's all.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:25 No.6138608
    So the Hedge is the Astral is the Shadow is the Abyss?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:27 No.6138640
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    With the power of HEART obviously.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:28 No.6138647
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:29 No.6138661
    Wait, there's a world called "Hedge" now? Just Hedge? That's the lamest thing ever.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:30 No.6138674
    The Hedge.

    Most of the OP's stuff has a 'The' in front of it.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:30 No.6138677
    Twilight=Hedge=passage to reach Shadow
    Shadow tunnels through Abyss to reach Supernal Realms, parts of which are equivalent to Arcadia/Hell/Underworld/Wyld/Heaven.
    Astral=Internal realms and Dreams, usually only applicable to wizards.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:32 No.6138692
    The Hedge. As in the thing that separates fields.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:35 No.6138723
    Or realities.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:42 No.6138798
    The Hedge is one of those borderworld places. It's called the Hedge because of the soul tearing thorns all over the place.

    My idea of it is actually that there's a sort of 5 point star of it, and each branch is technically the same area, just "overlain" on each other.

    The Hedge, Shadow, and the Underworld are all branches to the "points" of Arcadia, the Primal Wild, and Stygia.

    By going through the Hedge, which corresponds to any place on the planet, you can still get to Arcadia.
    Presumably, since the Shadow and the Underworld both are also more or less connected to the topology of the real world, there will be 'Gates' to Stygia and the Primal Wild.

    There would also likely be star edges that lead to Aether and Pandaemonium. Demons and Quashmallim are already proof that it exists.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:44 No.6138820
    So the Supernal Realms are the ultimate power source for most nWoD supernaturals?

    Hell = Pandemonium = Possessed/Demons/Lucifuge
    Arcadia = Arcadia = Changelings/True Fae
    Stygia = Underworld = Ghosts/Bound
    Aether = Heaven = Prometheans (Theoretically - Divine Fire = Forces + Prime)
    Primal Wild = ?

    Which leaves just the spirit-type supernaturals and Vampires as being totally of the Fallen world, right?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:46 No.6138829
    Also Twilight is a state of liminality, not an actual place. It's an in between state. Not quite in the real world, not quite in any other.

    What the hell are Hell and Skein? And the Astral Realms. I only know of them in general times, and it seems to be something like going into your personal place.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:46 No.6138836
    What, no far realm?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:48 No.6138853
    Hell is the Inferno. The Skein is a pattern or path that links dreams together - only Changelings can access it, Mages can't.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:48 No.6138858
    >Primal Wild = ?
    Werewolves, you ponce.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:48 No.6138859
    Is there a reason you've put up a picture of the 4e D&D cosmology?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:51 No.6138903
    Really? That's interesting, tell me more about it. It sounds less like a place and more like a force to be tapped into, like the Wyrd.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:53 No.6138934
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:54 No.6138950
    Thanks, and fuck you.

    So almost all supernaturals are basically Supernal beings that have a vague connection to, and may even be able to travel to, their given realm. There's something that could be done with that, I think.

    So, what should the roads to Heaven and Hell be like? If the Shadow leads to the Primal Wild, the Underworld to Stygia and the Hedge to Arcadia, then there should be something there, too (Inferno doesn't really give a method for getting there, outside of mentioning that it should be very hard).
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)02:55 No.6138967

    So, pretty much all of the Supernaturals have their own 'No Mortals Zone'. Some of them might overlap, but it seems like most of them don't. Werewolves have the Spirit Realm, Fae have Arcadia, Ghosts have the afterlife, Mages have wherever the heck Mages go. The point is, they don't work like the real world, and bad things happen to humans who go there.

    In between each of these otherworlds and the real world, there's some sort of barrier. The Hedge keeps you out of Arcadia, the Abyss keeps you out of the Supernal, etc, etc.

    It's... kind of formulaic.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)02:56 No.6138972
    You have the Fallen Realm - Earth. The Fallen Realm coexists with the Twilight which is a altered state of being and not actually a different world. Both of those board the Gauntlet that leads to the Shadow Realm where spirits dwell. And somewhere deep in the Shadow is the Underworld. Going to the other side you have the Abyss. The Hedge is the Arcadian section of the Abyss. On the other side of that there are five supernal realms. There's also the Astral Realm, but can't remember what it actually does and where it is.
    >> Blackheart 10/05/09(Mon)02:57 No.6138984
    Aether = Heaven = Prometheans

    I would change it to Heaven = Aether = Prometheans but whatever.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:00 No.6139012
    About the Underworld and Stygia.
    Both are time and time again mentioned to be a different place. The Underworld actually leads somewhere but the nature of Stygia is different. Stygia is not unlife, it is death, stillness and matter while the Underworld is a place that's really full of pseudo-life located under the Shadow Realm, not across the Abyss like where Stygia should be.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:05 No.6139063
    >And somewhere deep in the Shadow is the Underworld.
    Shadow and the Underworld aren't related. Though some Arvernan Gates may open to Shadow.

    Each route begins from the Fallen world.
    Fallen World -> Shadow -> Primal Wild
    Fallen World -> Hedge -> Arcadia
    Fallen World -> Underworld -> Stygia

    It's also possible that Aether and Pandaemonium don't have traditional... bordermarches, like Shadow, the Hedge, and the Underworld.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:07 No.6139089
    Each of the bordermarches crosses the Abyss.

    My theory isn't that Stygia is in the Underworld, it's that to get to Stygia, you have to go through the Underworld, just like you have to go through the Hedge to get to Arcadia. I'm mostly extrapolating off of Changeling.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:07 No.6139093
    Actually quotan the Mage core:

    It is said that within the Shadow Realm there are caves or
    holes in the ground that, were one to follow them far enough
    — usually beyond all hope of return — they would lead to a
    gray realm of eternal stillness. The Underworld.
    Those entering the Underworld first come to a hallway
    that appears to be endless, with many doors along its walls.
    It resembles a mausoleum to some, a mansion to others, or
    even a rough cave to others. Traveling to the Underworld is
    the work of masters of Death. Lesser mages would be foolish
    to attempt it. It is said that the shades there can fool men into
    staying forever, even making them think they have escaped
    back into the living world, while their bodies starve to death
    in the dark pit.
    Even Moros mages fear the Underworld. Their power
    comes from Stygia, the Supernal Realm where death is a
    lesson and balm for a weary soul, a place of waiting while the
    soul prepares for the next stage in its journey. The Underworld
    is a mistake, a casualty of the Abyss, where death no
    longer rises to the Supernal and instead draws things down,
    ever down, to lower worlds of non-being.
    Nonetheless, there are reasons to go there, for it is said that
    the ghosts of even Atlantean mages of old can be found there,
    if one is lucky enough or has an Artifact that provides a
    sympathetic connection. It is also rumored that the ruins of
    Atlantis itself exist there, a shade of the city’s former glory
    but still providing bold mages the opportunity for plunder
    unequaled in the living world.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:08 No.6139101
    I know what you mean. There should be five Abyssal realms for each Supernal one. SHOULD be.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:20 No.6139224
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    Here's the Mage version of the world.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:24 No.6139256
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    I can't imagine that Hell and Heaven lead to Pandaemonium and Aether. Those two likely don't have anything connecting them.

    Now, imagine this less as a star, and more like a five sided pyramid. The bottom part is the Fallen World, which also includes Twilight. The 'sides' are the bordermarches: The Underworld, The Hedge, and The Shadow. By traveling through these bordermarches, you can get to the Supernal, or at least the sharded, Watchtower areas, and avoid the Abyss, which is in the center of the pyramid.

    The bordermarches are like traveling through the desert, while going straight through the Abyss to the Supernal is like walking through napalm and acid and arsenic.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:26 No.6139272
    Geist refutes that by saying that only some of the gates of the Underworld open to Shadow, which is only mentioned in a sidebar going into the theory that Geist are part Spirit.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:29 No.6139296

    Some mages believe there is another world below the
    Fallen World, a place even further removed from the Supernal
    World. This place is called the Lower Depths. It is
    theorized that creatures from the Lower Depths might occasionally
    find their way to the Fallen World, where they
    probably need a lot of Mana to survive — Mana best taken
    from Awakened sources.


    (Lower Depths)-(Underworld)-(Shadow Realm)
    (Shadow Realm)-|Gauntlet|-((Fallen World)(Twilight))-|Abyss|
    |Abyss|-(Supernal Realms)
    |Abyss| = |The Hedge + 4 other realms|
    (Supernal Realms) = ((Arcadia)(Stygia)(Pandemonium)(Primal Wild and Aether))

    [Astral] - the inner realm.
    [Astral] =/~ Skein?

    There is most likely no heaven or hell in the classical meaning of the world.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:32 No.6139320
    That can't be true, since it's possible to get through to Arcadia through the Hedge.

    Which is also why I think that Shadow leads to the Primal Wild. The two are incredibly similar.
    Likewise, the Underworld as presented in Geist is similar to Stygia, and even has the Cthonians, which are said in Summoners to be Stygian spirits that got stuck when the Ladder fell.

    Perhaps they got stuck in The Underworld, which didn't exist when the world was whole, but was created by the Exarchs kicking down the Ladder.

    Book of Spirits also suggests that there are deep, dark, secret places where the Gaia exists. Well, if you can get from anywhere on the planet to a similar place in The Hedge, and the same thing happens with The Shadow and The Underworld, it's likely that those two are also connected like The Hedge is.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:34 No.6139334
    Mages don't use gates.
    Geist can't travel directly to the Shadow to check.
    Nothing refutes anything here.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:35 No.6139348
    ITT we assume Acadia(MtA) and Arcadia(CtL) are the same. Despite the intentional lack of evidence in either direction.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:36 No.6139358
    In the crossover books for Mage and Changeling - the Hedge is the area of the Abyss closest to Arcadia. Also the Abyss itself can be traversed but it destroys souls pretty much the same way the Hedge does.

    On the other hand both Geist and Mage books so far speak of the Underworld as a completely different place. Stygia doesn't really even fit with Underworld or Lower Depths either.
    >> Blackheart 10/05/09(Mon)03:36 No.6139363
    Get the fuck out.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:37 No.6139371
    Ummm... nope. It's the same place as per the Changeling/Mage crossover explanations (Changeling line of books).

    Old news bro.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:37 No.6139372
    How does this jive with the fact that people can actually get to Arcadia, which (as a Supernal Realms), should be impossible to get to?

    Is the Arcadia the True Fae come from a Fallen echo of the Supernal Arcadia of Mage, or is it actually the same thing, complete with all that entails (and does that mean that the Exarchs are trying their damnest to seal it up again, before someone capable of disrupting their hold on the Supernal comes up the pipe)?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:39 No.6139385
    I have no clue what your diagram is supposed to mean.

    Though I will say that it's probably not smart to only focus on Mage. The game line as a whole does nothing more than prove how little they actually know when mixed with the others. Mages are good at everything, but once you put them up against the people who're getting their powers directly from the realm (i.e. Changelings are getting their power right from Arcadia, not too unlikely that Sin-Eaters could be said to get their power from Stygia. Werewolves existed before the realms got buttfucked.), well, Sin-Eaters can do more with Death than a Mage could hope to until they become an Archmage, and a Changeling can do more with Fate with their Pledges, and Talecrafting, and the Skien.

    Though it could be said that Sin-Eater's power comes from the Underworld, and the same could be said of Changelings and the Hedge. They get their powers from the way they lose their souls in the Hedge. It's just that Fae want pets and toys, while the things in Geist don't.
    >> Blackheart 10/05/09(Mon)03:40 No.6139393
    Well, if it is THE Arcadia, well... you now have an idea of what kind of people live in the Supernal Realms.
    Question is, can the Exarchs defy the True Fae?
    Its one thing that you're a oh shi- god, but the Fae been doing the 'supernal being' thing a lot longer then them.
    >> Blackheart 10/05/09(Mon)03:42 No.6139415
    But a Geist won't stop time, and a changeling won't create Shadow spirits.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:42 No.6139418
    I'm not. I'm focusing on Mage + Changeling + Geist. Truthfully I do not have Werewolf and Vampire just gives some hints that Vampires are creatures of the Abyss and not much more.

    The diagram is the correspondence of realms as described in Mage, Changeling and Geist.

    If I get bored I'll make a grand image of it.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:42 No.6139426
    That's why I think that Shadow, which is so similar to the Spirit arcana and the Primal Wild, might have passages to the Primal Wild somewhere in Shadow.
    Likewise, the same for the Underworld and Stygia.

    The Underworld goes lower and lower, but is completely subterranean. I think that you can find passages in The Underworld that lead to Stygia.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:43 No.6139432
    It's not possible for a mage to get to Arcadia and remain a mage. It's not possible for a human to get to Arcadia and remain human. Again - Changeling/Mage crossover.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:44 No.6139446
    The trick is that the mages actually access supernal power. No one else does. Theoretically, if those who are pulled through the Hedge can get to the watchtower they can scribe their name in the Tower and become awakened....but there is the problem that unlike mages, they are not called, not pulled through the abyss. They'll still be lost in Arcadia, with no way back save through the Faerie Lands....which is not a good place to be. Though....

    Does anyone remember the tale of how Taliesin got his power?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:45 No.6139453
    I assume that is nMage right?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:45 No.6139457
    But a dead mage can still be a mage, even as a ghost.
    >> Blackheart 10/05/09(Mon)03:45 No.6139458
    Its not impossible, its EXTREMELY unlikely. As in 1 to Infinite-1.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:45 No.6139459
    >Does anyone remember the tale of how Taliesin got his power?
    Anal raping a demon I think...
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:46 No.6139467
    I thought you lost the connection to your avatar if you because a ghost. Thus losing your ability to affect reality.
    >> Blackheart 10/05/09(Mon)03:47 No.6139474
    You're in a wrong WoD my friend.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:48 No.6139482
    That's what we're talking about.
    oMage and oWoD is a completely different clusterfuck of a cosmology.
    oWoD has christian and deistic themes.
    nWoD is like... completely gnostic.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:48 No.6139484
    so it's nWoD then? (aka not quite so darkness)
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:49 No.6139493
    Like I said, Mages are Generalists.

    You assume that the True Fae aren't Exarchs. Thought that probably isn't true. Then again, the summoned spirits from Arcadia aren't anything like the True Fae anyway. So the cosmology is like everything else in WoD, and you can't actually look at it as a whole, because everything contradicts what it doesn't give the wink-wink, nudge-nudge to.

    Huh. Hadn't thought of Vampires being part of the Abyss. This also implies there won't be any other major games, if they are doing the lines based on the cosmology.
    But I meant that the formatting of if makes it hard to read.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:50 No.6139497
    wuts the fimbulwinter?

    bottom left corner
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:50 No.6139499
    You're right actually.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:51 No.6139505
    More like darker.
    >> Blackheart 10/05/09(Mon)03:51 No.6139517
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:51 No.6139519
    This discussion makes me wonder if Promethians are containers of the Aether's essential power....
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:51 No.6139520
    In Norse Mythology, it's the 8 year winter that comes before Ragnarok.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:52 No.6139523
    That's what the DIVINE Fire is.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:52 No.6139525
    I never really saw either one as being darker than the other. Just their own style of dark.

    Why do you say nWoD is darker?
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:52 No.6139526
    There are still many realms left and they don't shy away from reusing realms.

    Vampires are Abyssal in the way that there are legends that the first vampires were beasts from the Abyss. Completely inhuman cthulhu-esque blood sucking horrors.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:55 No.6139554
    Go read Asylum or Book of Secrets.

    nWoD doesn't have a metaplot with silly characters like Samual Hauight.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)03:56 No.6139562
    nWoD took a dip into Cthulhu while nerfing the wacky brightness of oMage into the grim of nMage.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)03:56 No.6139566
    Also, the powerlevel is smaller while the enemies are stronger and less knowable. The antagonists in most WoD lines can't even be fought.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:02 No.6139634
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    >wacky brightness
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:03 No.6139646
    that's straight up Cthulu right there
    >> Blackheart 10/05/09(Mon)04:03 No.6139648
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:04 No.6139659
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    Is /tg/ full of retards that actually used the whole meta-plot?
    Oh wait, I forgot it is...
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:04 No.6139661
    The way you people talk about it here, Mage was all about the wackiness.

    oMage also has that consensual reality bullshit.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:07 No.6139687
    I have no clue what that means.

    I wouldn't say that. I hate Cthulhu, but like nWoD. Mostly because even the things that can't be fought can still be defeated, because that's what nWoD is about. Personal horror.

    I never even played oWoD, but I get the feeling that the metaplot was more involved than most games. I've dealt with Exalted, and oWoD has more metaplot. Removing it is like pulling out half the setting. For instance, the Wyrm, Technocracy, consensual reality, Ecoterrorist werewolves...
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:10 No.6139719
    It was actually a really sad and frustrating setting. The wacky brightness was just in the hope for what the world could be.

    I mean, imagine seeing something incredibly beautiful and empowering, and trying desperately to convince an apathetic public of it, show them that they're not trapped and that they shouldn't be resigned. That was the real struggle of M:tAsc, the Technocracy was just a representation of it.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:14 No.6139750
    To be fair, the Wyrm and the Technocracy were versatile enough to take whatever form you wanted. Same thing with consensus reality, by its very nature. And ecoterrorists could be easily rationalized away by not being active right now or being at the other end of the city.
    I've played a lot of games of Vampire and Mage, and the metaplot has pretty much never really tied the storyteller's hands on what he could and couldn't do.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:24 No.6139827
    I'm in an oWoD Werewolf game right now. First time playing it, but way back in the day, I used to buy occasional oWoD books to read, because they had a kinda cool story that I only partly grasped (generally got the books that hit the used book store). And then I got nWoD, and started playing it.

    And now that I'm looking back into the older books, well, oWoD was pretty damn wacky. The various Fera were fucked up in so many ways, the PCs were so far from human that in some cases, they didn't even know what a phone was, and the fucking Pentex corp... It really seemed to be trying to hit home an idea that as long as you're fighting the good fight, it doesn't matter who you kill along the way, as long as they're mortal, and as long as you don't reveal your supernatural nature. Almost a D&D style black and white morality, with a clear level of delineation - Gaea - Goodest - Wyld - Good - Werewolves - Goodish - Spirits - Neutral - Mortals - Evilish - Pentex - Evil - Wyrm - Evilest.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:30 No.6139889
    Definitely one of the problems in Werewolf. It was a similar problem for Changeling, not that anyone played it. Less so in the others.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:31 No.6139897
    >For instance, the Wyrm, Technocracy, consensual reality, Ecoterrorist werewolves...
    I didn't consider that the metaplot, I thought of that as the background and that the different backgrounds tied together.

    It was the stuff that whatshisnuts woke up and decided to destroy the earth, etc that I totally left out. Or that one of the parts of the technocracy was infiltrated by the wyrm.

    >I wouldn't say that. I hate Cthulhu, but like nWoD. Mostly because even the things that can't be fought can still be defeated, because that's what nWoD is about. Personal horror.
    All I meant was you can't directly kill the big things even with all the firepower you can muster. Something you don't see much outside of a fantasy setting.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:32 No.6139908
    >Gaea - Goodest - Wyld - Good - Werewolves - Goodish - Spirits - Neutral - Mortals - Evilish - Pentex - Evil - Wyrm - Evilest.
    I would say mortals were more apathetic or "get off my damn lawn"
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:34 No.6139920
    Yeah, actually, hapless mortals were one of the few surefire ways to make the werewolves look like assholes. That and abused kinfolk.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:35 No.6139931
    >Gaea - Goodest - Wyld - Good - Werewolves - Goodish - Spirits - Neutral - Mortals - Evilish - Pentex - Evil - Wyrm - Evilest.
    Am I the only one suddenly drawing comparisons with the Neo-Cons in the Bush administration here?
    Christian god - bush administration - military - other nations - muslims - iraqis - terrorists
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:35 No.6139932
    But in the context of Werewolf, the shit they do/are almost always assists the Weaver or the Wyrm. Just by being around, they help the enemy.
    >> Blackheart 10/05/09(Mon)04:37 No.6139946
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    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:37 No.6139950
    yeah, I played in two werewolf games. One was Apocalypse and the other was Wild West
    Didn't feel nearly as bad if humans died in the West, cause hell, it's the WILD WEST

    I miss that game, my Iron Rider (pre-Glass Walker) rocked
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:38 No.6139951
    Right, but that was really just to show how omnipresent and powerful the Wyrm and Weaver were. The fact that they were pawns for these forces just made them more pitiable.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:38 No.6139957
    trolling the administration, yeah
    you guys, no
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:39 No.6139962
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    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:40 No.6139972
    I can see where you're coming from, but that's still insane. Go to bed.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:41 No.6139978
    uh yeah... it's 2pm here
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:42 No.6139981

    Either way, I still feel worse about mortal death in nWoD than in oWoD. oWoD had a hell of a lot of 'Mortals are just clueless pawns who don't matter in the long run, and you might be better off without' going on in it. In nWoD, the only splat that really views mortals this way is Vampire, and they kinda need mortals still, too.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:42 No.6139990
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    When did Neo-Cons start coming to /tg/?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:45 No.6140008
    You still need to go to bed.

    How does noting the insanity of comparing fictional werewolves' perspectives on various phenomena to the Bush administration's attitudes on completely different things, apropos of nothing, make someone a neocon? BTW, I voted for Obama.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:47 No.6140028
    This troll is a Dance Commander.

    >> Devilist 10/05/09(Mon)04:48 No.6140030
    >no sex

    I don't see how you couldn't notice the connection.

    Moderatefag here. Pro-gun, anti everything else GOP.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:51 No.6140044
    Fuck. No. Not political shit. We have enough threads on it by itself, it doesn't need to shit up other ones.

    Quick, which is better, oWoD or nWoD?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:53 No.6140057
    >Either way, I still feel worse about mortal death in nWoD than in oWoD
    Well, that's because there weren't any mortals left in oWoD. You were just killing hedge wizards and psychics and semi-hunters and shit.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:53 No.6140060
    oWoD fluff is deliciously resonant. Changeling especially, even if it didn't translate well to actual playing and anytime you did you wound up with guys in their late twenties who's frittered away their good years and were now stuck with creepy-ass Peter Pan complexes.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:54 No.6140065
    4e is best.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:55 No.6140071
    The edition wars that erupt when they meet, which are on the scale of a matter/anti-matter reaction.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:56 No.6140080
    oChangeling had it's moments, but even for fluff, I really like nChangeling. And nHunter. And then we have that one thread the other day about Changeling-oriented Hunter compacts. So delicious.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:56 No.6140081
    >Not Politics
    >Edition War troll.

    Ladies and gentlemen. /tg/ summerised in one post.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:57 No.6140087
    I still say the funnest thing to do with new mage is have the cabal track down and try to stop a new group of violent declaring that magic is everything and leaving manifestos like "Enigma will take you where dogma cannot."
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:58 No.6140090
    >Changeling-oriented Hunter compacts
    While I get why that's awesome, and more power to you, I trot out Changelings when I want to dial up the weird-scary in place of the bitey-scary. I don't want my Hunters knowing enough about them to know they're all the same kind of thing.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:59 No.6140093
    OWoD has better fluff, NWoD has better mechanics. If they'd kept all the original vampire clans plus the Cain/Antediluvian shit, NWoD vampire would be the best game in the world.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)04:59 No.6140100
    Try this:

    1. Download the album "Wild Like Children" by Tilly and the Wall
    2. Download the C:tD supplement "Autumn People"
    3. Read the fluffstory while listening to the entirety of the album.

    If you do not cry you are condemned to never develop a meaningful relationship with anyone ever.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)05:00 No.6140102
    A lot of what you said I don't understand because the Mage games have never grabbed me (Okay, except for that Void Engineers chronicle we played as Jovian Border Patrol - using SUPERSCIENCE! to save Earth from "aliens"!), but I must also disregard it because
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)05:02 No.6140118
    Strangely enough, "funnest" is a-okay by Mozilla's spellcheck.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)05:04 No.6140126
    Yeah, I'm gonna wait until a source with more credibility than Mozilla and Wiktionary accept it as a word.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)05:05 No.6140134
    Why? It's a perfectly cromulent word.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)05:11 No.6140173
    And getting back on topic...

    I wonder if the paths to Pandemonium and Aether were collapsed? If you think about it like:

    Hedge -> Open ->Arcadia
    Spirit -> Closed -> Primal Wilds
    Underworld -> Partially Closed -> Stygia

    Then maybe the two 'path realms' were destroyed utterly for those two, forcing Demons and Quashmallim to make a much more difficult trek to get to the Fallen world (perhaps why they're relatively rare, compared to others). If this is the case, maybe the Heavenly and Hellish paths still have small pockets in the Abyss, containing Abyss-tainted versions of both. For that matter, maybe there are some small pockets of each realm left on Earth...
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)05:20 No.6140214

    I just fuse both.

    After Old World died, creation got remade, things fucked up again, and then New World came about. There's still elements of the Old World still around (Pentex still exists, the Technocracy is now a Hunter Compact, all people involved in oWoD's story have reincarnated, though not necessarily into who they were before) if you look hard enough, but the world's obviously gotten worse. And there's also the chance that this world might end, and lead to something even worse than this.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)05:21 No.6140219
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)05:22 No.6140221
    This was exactly my friend's approach. He figured Exalted predated oWoD, and with each cataclysm and recreation the supernatural elements in the world got weaker and weaker as more energy left the system.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)05:31 No.6140260
    I've always like the 'Exalted comes first' idea, despite the fact that it kinda rapes both settings. There's a good degree of commonality between Exalted and both WoDs, and those hidden links make things interesting.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)05:44 No.6140346
    oWoD all the way. Fuck World of Happy Duckness.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)08:15 No.6141180
    Actually, Secrets of the Watchtowers from Mage implies that Vampires are from the Lower Reaches, and Werewolves might or might not be the descendants of the half-spirit hound of the Oracle of the Primal Wild.

    Basically, right after the fall, there was a massive invasion of Things from the Lower Depths that possessed corpses, ran around killing people, and generally caused a lot of trouble. The Oracle of Stygia didn't like that, so she cast a powerful spell from her Watchtower that banished the spirits, took the corpses they animated, and marched them back to the edge of reality to build a gate to ward them from the Earth.

    Vampires, then, are the descendants of the rare one that manages to get through and possess a particularly evil or unholy mortal; Longinus, Vlad Dracula, "Belial", et cetera. That Vampires that have utterly lost their souls (and Humanity) are now revealed to be capable of creating new Vampires much more easily (no Willpower dot loss) is further evidence of this.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)10:52 No.6142239
    Would that make Vampires half-Lower Depths half-Spirit, then, thanks to the Strix, which are being implied to be the Beast? Or perhaps the Strix denizens of the Lower Depths?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)10:53 No.6142247
    >implying the Strix are the beast
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)11:10 No.6142381
    Fuck you.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)12:13 No.6142985
    Where does the Abyssal implication come in, then?

    Also, which books give hints as to the Lower Depths?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)12:44 No.6143269

    I also like the idea that Exalted came first. The way I have it done is like this: Exalted 1e, oWoD, Exalted 2e, nWoD. I don't feel like it rapes the settings, it just creates this big epic world. It also gives me a way to use the theme of cycles of birth and death that I like so much.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)12:47 No.6143300
    Mekhet clan book states that their first was some monstrous being from the Abyss. But vampires might be wrong on this, they really have no clue what they are.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)12:49 No.6143309
    arcadia IS a supernal realm, even if fae arcadia and mage arcadia are different.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)12:49 No.6143321
    Several Mage books and the Geist book.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)13:23 No.6143640
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    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)13:30 No.6143705
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    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)13:31 No.6143713
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    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)13:31 No.6143722
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    oh, now look what you've done...
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)13:34 No.6143741
    Yeah, garou were good in much the same way the Bush administration were good.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)13:36 No.6143755
    Any way you want it to. Because fuck continuity and metaplots.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)13:53 No.6143910

    >>124 posts and 9 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.

    GOD DAMN, /TG/
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)13:57 No.6143951
    STFU, nobody cares about your troll post.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)13:58 No.6143963
    They never really specified where it came from. Just that it involved a multitude of crooning mouths and bladed tentacles.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)14:53 No.6144561
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    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:25 No.6144942
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    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:26 No.6144962
    When I scrolled past the OP image, it looked like some sort of mystical spider.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:45 No.6145166
    So we're all pretty much in agreement that

    Stygia > Underworld > Geists
    Arcadia > Hedge > Changelings
    The Aether > ??? > Divine Fire (Qashalim/Prometheans)
    Primal Wilds > The Shadow > Werewolves

    The sticking point is Vampires. They could be from the Lower Depths, the Abyss, or (unlikely) Pandemonium or the Inferno. Since the next splat is likely going to be nDemon, I'm pegging [Demons] as coming from Pandemonium (as opposed to The Inferno). Are The Inferno (Hell, where true demons come from) and the Lower Depths the same thing?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:47 No.6145186
    Which game line mentions The Inferno?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:48 No.6145195

    If you mean that for example the Primal Wyld is accesible by the Shadow, HELL NO.
    >> The Bearded Bear 10/05/09(Mon)15:49 No.6145202
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:49 No.6145207

    Inferno, the sourcebook about Demons. Think cranked-up spirits of Vice.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:49 No.6145217

    Inferno is stand-alone generic supplement. Where there is a detailed, canonical and quite real Hell.
    And demons, which are peculiar spirits.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:51 No.6145239
    Oh, I see. I need to check that book out.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:51 No.6145252
    I think Mage mentions the Underworld as a part of the Shadow or the Twilight.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:52 No.6145270

    Why not? The Hedge reaches into Arcadia, and it's even bets that the Underworld goes into Stygia. If it's a matter of "easy access" keep in mind there are such things as Rank 10 spirits, and I bet they'd hang around gateways to the Primal Wild.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:55 No.6145305

    I sort of see Twilight as sort of a side-dimension. It's essentially the exact same place as the Fallen World, only ghosts and spirits hang around. A sort of 5th dimension, one that normal people can't perceive but is certainly there.

    As for the Underworld being part of the Shadow, I don't quite buy it, but I do buy it being close by. Ghosts have to cannibalize those spirits somehow to become Geists.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:56 No.6145317

    It suggest is. From the Shadow, yes.


    There are two or one Arcadia. It's the group/storyteller's choice. Neither is canonical.
    If there are 2, changeling Arcadia does not connect to supernal Arcadia.
    Book of the Dead is not out already, but I bet that the connection will remain optional. As the Shadow is not connected to the so called Primal Wyld (which methinks magefags are too prone to consider a place, but that's me, surely fluff does state it thought to be a place).
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:57 No.6145330

    Can spirits go through an Avernian Gate (in the Flesh, I mean)?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)15:59 No.6145356
    M:tA Page 283
    "The Underworld
    It is said that within the Shadow Realm there are caves or
    holes in the ground that, were one to follow them far enough
    — usually beyond all hope of return — they would lead to a
    gray realm of eternal stillness. The Underworld."
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)16:02 No.6145391
    In my book the arcadias are the same realm, but different ... parts of it. You know, with the supernatural realms being defined as infinite in M:tA. But yeah, it's optional.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)16:08 No.6145472
    hypotetical fluff is hypotetical and fluff

    Goddamn, it's not that Maeljin aren't the lords of Hell. It's OPTIONAL, they'll never say anything more.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)16:12 No.6145523
    now imagine a campaign where the changelings going into 'The Hedge' end up in either 'Twilight' OR a 'passage to reach Shadow' because of some outside dickery

    bricks may be shat
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)16:14 No.6145567
    Anyhow WoD cosmology frankly doesn't have any problems that I might see

    MAYBE the "geist are ghost that gobbled spirits" implies an odd connection between Underworld and Shadow

    The rest seems quite right, if anything one could ask himself "ok how do I differentiate the Hedge from the Shadow", at first reading... but they're not illogical.
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)16:18 No.6145631
    Is this Aion?
    >> Anonymous 10/05/09(Mon)16:25 No.6145729
    Arcadia, in the mage sense, exists as the mages understand Arcadia. Arcadia is the realm of metaphor and half-truth. The mages believe that Arcadia is whatever the fuck it is they believe it to be, and so, to them, Arcadia is just that. It works because Arcadia is a just as much a metaphor as it is a place. They choose to interpret it differently, and because of that it behaves differently.

    Or whatever. I'm just saying its not like it's a 'real' place capable of being understood by mundane minds. The thing basically exists for the sole purpose of dicking with people, regardless of how you look at it.

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