Merits:
• You have 16 Merit Points to spend.
• The Purified instead receive 25 Merit Points.
• You begin with no Merits. They can be purchased through Merit Points using the following costs, which are, once again, noncumulative:
Merit •: 1 Merit Point
Merit ••: 3 Merit Points
Merit •••: 6 Merit Points
Merit ••••: 10 Merit Points
Merit •••••: 15 Merit Points
• Any unspent Merit Points are, of course, wasted.
• Merit Points cannot be spent to increase Supernatural Advantage. Ergo, a 0 XP character cannot possess a Supernatural Advantage above 1.

Experience:
• XP is divided into two types: Mundane XP and Supernatural XP.
• Mundane XP may be spent on Attributes, Skills, Skill Specialties, Merits (including those made available by a supernatural template, such as Occultation or Token), Morality, and Willpower.
• Supernatural XP may be used to upgrade Supernatural Advantage and powers. "Powers" refers to disciplines and devotions for vampires, arcana and rotes for mages, transmutations and athanors for Prometheans, and so on and so forth.
• Ultimately, we are in no position to put forth a rigid system granting XP to you, the ST. Each group possesses their own preferences for distribution of XP, and whatever means feels right for the ST should serve as the proper method for the group. 1-6 Mundane XP and 1-6 Supernatural XP at the end of each session, with an average of 3 Mundane XP and 3 Supernatural XP, is a good starting point. As a general guideline, momentous escapades should grant more XP than more sedate and less eventful sessions.
• Want to lower the increase of power level at the end of each session? Hand out less XP. Would you like to endow the characters with rapid growth? Distribute even more. Do you wish to emphasize that the characters are people first and "monsters" second? Give out more Mundane XP than Supernatural XP on average. You, the ST, may tweak the dissemination of XP as you wilt.

Morality, Flaws, and Derangements:
• You begin with a starting Morality (or equivalent trait, depending on your template) of anywhere from 5 to 10. Starting with a Morality lower than 7 does not grant you bonus XP, and neither does opting for a Morality greater than 7.
• You may select any number of Flaws as you wish. During a session in which your Flaws significantly hinder your character and/or the other player characters, at the ST's discretion, you may be rewarded with 1 additional Mundane XP at the end of the session.
• You may never receive more than 1 additional Mundane XP in this manner, no matter the amount of Flaws you possess. A greater number of Flaws, however, does increase the probability that such XP-granting circumstances arise.
• Each Derangement you voluntarily begin play with counts as a Flaw. Severe Derangements offer no more bonus Mundane XP than mild Derangements, though the former do heighten the chances of severely debilitating you.

Rationale: The original character creation system encourages specialization to an absurd degree. Going for 4 dots in as many Attributes and Skills as you could afford, and then 3 dots using any remaining Attribute and Skill dots, is not only considerably more XP-efficient than creating a well-rounded character, but it is also renders you a more valuable asset to the group. After all, it is preferable to have a team of specialists who can each utilize their fields of expertise with great prowess and reliability than to have a ragtag crew of jack-of-all-trades who can each do everything with shameful mediocrity.

This system I propose ensures that players who do create well-rounded, jack-of-all-trades characters are not utterly shafted. Additionally, it reduces the pressure to go for 3/4-dot Attributes, Skills, and Merits and 0/1 dots in everything else, instead encouraging the creation of more organic, balanced characters. The number of Attribute Points, Skill Points, and Merit Points align with the most XP-efficient permutation of statistics for character creation under the old system.

Consider the amount of XP which the following generalist character would receive under White Wolf's character creation method:
Mental Attributes: Intelligence 2, Wits 2, Resolve 3 = 45 XP
Physical Attributes: Strength 2, Dexterity 2, Stamina 2 = 30 XP
Social Attributes: Presence 3, Manipulation 3, Composure 2 = 60 XP
Mental Skills: Academics 1, Computer 1, Crafts 1, Investigation 1, Medicine 1, Occult 1, Science 1 = 21 XP
Physical Skills: Athletics 1, Brawl 1, Firearms (Pistols) 1, Weaponry 1 = 15 XP
Social Skills: Animal Ken 1, Empathy 2, Expression 1, Intimidation 1, Persuasion (Fast-Talking) 2, Socialize 1, Streetwise 1, Subterfuge (Lying) 2 = 48 XP
Merits: Allies 1, Contacts 1, Direction Sense 1, Meditative Mind 1, Natural Immunity 1, Resources 1, Strong Back 1 = 14 XP
Total = 233 XP

Now, let us contrast this with a more specialized character:
Mental Attributes: Intelligence 2, Wits 1, Resolve 4 = 55 XP
Physical Attributes: Strength 1, Dexterity 4, Stamina 1 = 45 XP
Social Attributes: Presence 3, Manipulation 4, Composure 1 = 70 XP
Mental Skills: Academics 3, Investigation 4 = 48 XP
Physical Skills: Firearms (Pistols) 4 = 33 XP
Social Skills: Empathy 3, Persuasion (Fast-Talking) 4, Subterfuge (Lying) 4 = 84 XP
Merits: Resources 3, Striking Looks 4 = 32 XP
Total = 367 XP

When a specialized character has 1.575 times as much effective experience as a generalist, that would mean that the system encourages extreme specialization, does it not? This is even before we get into the fact that the original rules for supernatural power dice pools promote specialization even more (e.g. "You are a Ventrue, and as such, you should concentrate on your Intelligence, Wits, Expression, Intimidation, and Persuasion should you desire good dice pools for Dominate.").

Now, to further the point, let us picture the following hypothetical character:
Mental Attributes: Intelligence 2, Wits 2, Resolve 4
Physical Attributes: Strength 2, Dexterity 4, Stamina 2
Social Attributes: Presence 3, Manipulation 4, Composure 2
Mental Skills: Academics 3, Computer 1, Crafts 1, Investigation 4, Medicine 1, Occult 1, Science 1
Physical Skills: Athletics 1, Brawl 1, Firearms (Pistols) 4, Weaponry 1
Social Skills: Animal Ken 1, Empathy 3, Expression 1, Intimidation 1, Persuasion (Fast-Talking) 4, Socialize 1, Streetwise 1, Subterfuge (Lying) 4
Merits: Allies 1, Contacts 1, Direction Sense 1, Meditative Mind 1, Natural Immunity 1, Resources 3, Striking Looks 4, Strong Back 1

Let us see the amount of XP it would take for our generalist character to reach this state:
Resolve 3 to 4 = 20 XP
Dexterity 2 to 4 = 35 XP
Manipulation 3 to 4 = 20 XP
Academics 1 to 3 = 15 XP
Investigation 1 to 4 = 27 XP
Empathy 2 to 3 = 9 XP
Persuasion 2 to 4 = 21 XP
Subterfuge 2 to 4 = 21 XP
Resources 1 to 3 = 10 XP
Striking Looks 4 = 20 XP
Total = 198 XP

So TF, what are your thoughts on the balance as far as the splats are right now, and on Armory Reloaded's various considered fixes?

Now, what of our specialist character?
Wits 1 to 2 = 10 XP
Strength 1 to 2 = 10 XP
Stamina 1 to 2 = 10 XP
Composure 1 to 2 = 10 XP
Computer 1 = 3 XP
Crafts 1 = 3 XP
Medicine 1 = 3 XP
Occult 1 = 3 XP
Science 1 = 3 XP
Athletics 1 = 3 XP
Brawl 1 = 3 XP
Weaponry 1 = 3 XP
Animal Ken 1 = 3 XP
Expression 1 = 3 XP
Intimidation 1 = 3 XP
Socialize 1 = 3 XP
Streetwise 1 = 3 XP
Allies 1 = 2 XP
Contacts 1 = 2 XP
Direction Sense 1 = 2 XP
Meditative Mind 1 = 2 XP
Natural Immunity 1 = 2 XP
Strong Back 1 = 2 XP
Total = 85 XP

Quite the gap, no? Once again, in the batch of house rules I propose, this issue is wholly circumvented, as a generalist character shall receive the exact same amount of effective XP as a specialist character.

If I played nWoD, i'd try this.

>>6059175

In my opinion, the greater templates would be ranked as such: mages > sin-eaters > demon-possessed > Prometheans > Purified > vampires > werewolves. The lattermost template is plagued with the vile mechanic that is Renown, along with some shoddy mechanics for shapeshifting. I shall not put forth my assessment on changelings, for although I find their diminished dice pools, instant action requirements for "buff" powers, and high Glamour and Willpower costs to be major weaknesses, they are consistently lauded as powerful entities for reasons unknown to me (though perhaps it may have to do with pledges). Hunters are a special case: they do receive significantly more experience than the other supernatural types, yes, boosting the rate of their increase of power, but a Hunter is strictly inferior to a greater supernatural being of an equivalent level of XP.

As for the "combat hacks" in the Armory Reloaded, I do prefer to use my own set of house rules loosely, loosely based on some of them, such as Defense against firearms and all non-unarmed melee weapons delivering lethal damage. I would recommend employing the variant rules in the Werewolf section should you wish to make werewolves actually deadly in their alternate forms. I have been pondering over a progression scheme for the forms, wherein a higher Primal Urge "unlocks" further benefits for shapeshifting, such as 9-again, 8-again, or rote for attack rolls or aggravated damage attacks, such that the werewolf template shall not be absurdly front-loaded.

SAGE FOR THE SAGE GOD
BANS FOR THE BAN THRONE

WHERE ARE THE HOUSE RULES FOR STARTING POWERS?
YOU SAID THERE WOULD BE HOUSE RULES FOR STARTING POWERS.

>>6059262
The power hierarchy's exactly the same I thought it'd be, with the exception that I have no idea what the fuck purified are or what sin eaters are like...

From a certain standpoint, it makes sense that vampires be near the bottom, because vampires reproduce really easily.

>>6059315
>what the fuck purified are

Read Immortals.

>>6059330
+MMORTALS?

>>6059330
What the fuck? Immortals are stronger than VAMPIRES? I didn't even know they had powers.

>>6059356

Should you possess Resources 5, the Blood Bather template becomes top-tier. An old adage goes, "Screw the rules I have money!" Wealth can buy one many things, from conveniences to weapons to friendship to more wealth, and indeed, in this modern age, it can even purchase you. For this, we shall assume that you, once again, possess Resources 5. Our method of immortality shall be through a Blood Bather ritual, as delineated in pages 32-37 of WoD: Immortals. The goal here is to adjust our cost factor to +0 to render it a valid ritual.

• Bath: Specific Material, Resources 5. Our tub is made out of solid diamond (-5).
• Bath: Symbols and Carvings. The bath has to be adorned with fabulous esoteric charms before the ritual (-2).
• Bath: Attendants: Six attendants must be present (-5), and they have been trained to perform a complex performance of song and terpsichorean motions (-1).
• Bath: The Stars are Right. The bath must be performed during summer equinox (-2).
• Blood: Age. The blood has to come from adults and adults only (-2).
• Blood: Half the Population. The blood has to come from people of our sex, whatever that is (-1).
• Blood: Race, Creed, or Color. The blood has to come from black people (-1).

>>6059369

• Blood: Left Alive. The victims need not die for the ritual to work (+5).
• Blood: Coat the Skin. All we need is a total of one gallon of blood in total (+2).
• Blood: Fresh. The blood needs to have been drawn from the donor's body within one day of the ritual (-3).
• Effects: Immortal. We do not age, do not die of natural causes, are immune to mundane diseases, and are highly resistant to supernatural diseases (+5).
• Effects: Attribute Increase (Permanent). One of our Physical attributes (Strength, Dexterity, Stamina) is increased by 4 dots (+12). For comparison, 2 in an attribute is roughly equivalent to 10 in D&D, and 5 in an attribute approximates to 24 in D&D, so this is a huge boost.
• Frequency: Five Years. The ritual has a duration of five years, and can be renewed (+3).
• Preparation: Infusions, Resources 5. The blood needs to be mixed with hilariously expensive herbs and reagents (-5).
Total cost factor: +0. This is valid

>>6059375

So, once every five years, the day before the summer equinox, we gather six trustworthy black (oxymoron, etc) adults of our sex, pay them an astronomical sum, and have them come to our mansion. We rehearse a performance of Summer Sunshine by the Corrs with them until they get it absolutely right, and then have them stay the night. We then bring them over to our solid diamond tub, adorn it fabulously, extract 1/6th a gallon of blood from each of them, and dump it into the vat. We climb into the tub and have them perform their extravagant Summer Sunshine act. We are now immortal for five years.

Also, we are endowed with either retard strength (+4 Strength), the agility and deftness of a Touhou character (+4 Dexterity), or the physical tenacity of a cockroach (+4 Stamina). In D&D terms, this is equivalent to +20 Strength, +20 Dexterity, or +20 Constitution, so we really do become a ludicrous physical specimen.

>The blood has to come from black people (-1).

Huh.

I also did not know that it was even possible to leave the donors alive.

Do you think you could rework this for Exalted too? It also runs on the Storyteller system and STs always rage about how overpowered specialist characters are.

>>6059433

I unfortunately possess no experience with Exalted 2e. A certain member of my group, however, who coincidentally happens to have previously been a prominent poster on this board, is gifted with much mechanical mastery over the system, and I suppose I should be able to present this to him for adaptation into Exalted.

I'm starting to like nWoD: Touhoufag Edition.

>>6059500
Luckily, there are solutions available to you for this kind of condition.

No Edward? No Bearded Bear? Really?

>>6059569
Maybe it's because he put down the numbers for proof in his posts.

>>6059312

I have put that aside for now, and am instead working on a revised system for Mage Armor, Mage Sight, direct damage spells, Paradox, and Disbelief for Mage: the Awakening. I intend on implementing a system similar to Psychic Phenomena and Perils of the Warp from Dark Heresy to replace the results of Paradox.

>>6059659
>Psychic Phenomena and Perils of the Warp from Dark Heresy to replace the results of Paradox.

Fuck yes.

I find it hard to believe that some fat ginger Touhoufag will be able to implement WoD better than, oh I dunno... the fucking people who are *paid* to do it?

>>6059702
You know how game companies really suck at game balance? Virtually all the time?

>>6059702
>fat ginger
>fat
>ginger
>Filipino

Does not compute.

Addendum: I was considering splitting the Attribute Points into Mental, Physical, and Social Attribute Spheres, but I came to the conclusion that it would render allocating Attributes far too complex.

>>6059854
I think you should remove the splitting of skills. It's not necessary at all.

>>6059702

I am pretty sure your average homeless person could balance a tabletop game better than White Wolf, and would probably remember to remove placeholder sentences and page numbers from their splatbooks before printing them for sale.

>>6059702
The whole point of White Wolf games are they're designed by dramafags, for dramafags. If they actually made them balanced, sensible and playable then they wouldn't want to play them. Which also explains why this is kind of a fool's errand, as none of White Wolf's target audience would want to play it.

>>6059569
Don't feel like bothering today. Got a handbook to read and a game to coordinate.

>>6059883
No. Siloing is good.

>>6059914

thanks for posting to let us know you didn't feel like posting.

>>6059883

I had consulted with my group, and we had arrived at the conclusion that dividing the Skill Points was the ideal choice. Of course, should you wish to allow the 55 Skill Points to be distributed freely, by all means, do so.

>>6059899
Eh, only drawback I see here is that it'd probably take at least twice as long for a newbie player to distribute dots as it did before, and that it favours a jack of all trades-approach to your attributes (cheaper points-wise).

If you wanted a fix which is attractive to the main crowd of WW players, I'd recommend changing the exp system instead.

"You have 6/4/3 dots to put in your attribute categories" with no recalculation or anything necessary is quite inuititive to most people.

There's also some possible critique which can be given when it comes to forcing a balance - which sort of limits what games people can do compared to the default system as opposed to granting more options.

And, you know, if you go this route you could've just taken the Exp system, taken the points and calculated some sort of flat sum for starting points given originally.

>>6060081

>and that it favours a jack of all trades-approach to your attributes (cheaper points-wise).
This is a drawback how, exactly?

>If you wanted a fix which is attractive to the main crowd of WW players, I'd recommend changing the exp system instead.
That would not only be far more difficult to mend, but making a fourth or fifth dot come with the same price as a second or third dot would encourage unbalanced specialization to an even greater degree.

>And, you know, if you go this route you could've just taken the Exp system, taken the points and calculated some sort of flat sum for starting points given originally.
Combining the pools for Attributes, Skills, and Merits would offer a little too much freedom, and would give even experienced players much pause when it comes to creating characters. A point-based system such as this is less difficult to comprehend with regards to adding up costs.

we are not going to like it more the more you post it

>>6060144
>and that it favours a jack of all trades-approach to your attributes (cheaper points-wise).
>This is a drawback how, exactly?
People seem to like having their characters being good at different things and tend to dislike this crippling all their other skills. If you like D&D's skill system this is hardly an issue of course.

>Combining the pools for Attributes, Skills, and Merits would offer a little too much freedom, and would give even experienced players much pause when it comes to creating characters. A point-based system such as this is less difficult to comprehend with regards to adding up costs.

Might've been unclear here. Meant, of course, that you'd have Exp cost for all the things, with experience divided up for attributes, abilities etc.
That's about all I have to say this time.

>>6060199

>People seem to like having their characters being good at different things and tend to dislike this crippling all their other skills.
It is still a good idea as ever to create a specialist character under the set of house rules I propose. It is simply that creating a generalist character shall now prove less of a poor choice and more of an option on par with a specialist.

>>6059375
Could you get more Str/Dex/Sta out of this if you were willing to kill the black people?

>>6060544

But of course. Increasing the mandatory frequency of the ritual could afford you a greater physical augmentation as well.

I'd make it so that any unspent points are NOT wasted. They're just converted into XP specific to attributes/skills/merits for use later on in the game.

>>6060808

That would promote saving up virtual XP to spend later on in the life of the character, which is something I wish to sidestep.

>>6059980
I wish my group looked like that.

Good stuff. I should show this to my ST next game.

>>6059659
>Perils of the Warp

Perils of the... Abyss?

>>6061032
I FEEL THE ABYSS OVERTAKING ME. And it made me feel like a PIECE OF SHIT!

>>6059118
> Old. I already read this on http://www.anantalk.com/ (anan = anon) last night.
Not sure if I understand you correctly. Please explain.

>>6061032

>06-09: Abyssal Burn. A violent burst of energy from the Abyss smashes into the willworker's mind, sending her reeling, rendering her stunned for Gnosis + Arcanum turns, losing her actions and ability to move, though she may still apply her Defense against attacks and reflexively contest other rolls. The mage's player can roll Resolve + Stamina + Composure; each success removes one turn from the duration of the stunning.

>47-55: Abyssal Whispers. The ghostly voices of Abyssal entities fill the air within a radius of (Gnosis + Arcanum) * 10 yards around the willworker. All sentient beings inside the affected zone, including the mage, must succeed on a Resolve + Composure - Arcanum - Gnosis roll or immediately lose 1 point of Morality (or equivalent trait) and make a Morality - Arcanum roll. Failure on this second roll results in either gaining a mild derangement or increasing an existing mild derangement into a severe one.

"Gnosis" always refers to the Gnosis of the caster in question who had invoked the Paradox, and "Arcanum" equals the full Arcanum dots of the mage for the spell in question (e.g. this would be 4 for a mage with Life 4 invoking a Paradox on Honing the Form, a Life 3 spell). This should be explained more clearly once I get down to creating the .txt file for this.

Should players be banned from spending Willpower on rolls to resist the effects of Paradox? I am strongly considering such. Keep in mind that the Perils of the Abyss table, the chart containing the two examples above, only bears a 25% chance of being rolled on whenever a Paradox is invoked. The other 75% of the time, the less harsh Paradox Phenomena table is rolled on instead.

>>6061196
Oh god that's awesome. That'll teach those pesky mages not to fuck with vulgar magic. What's the Daemonhost one going to be like?

Bump for Perils of the Abyss.

>>6059369
>>6059375
>>6059385
Damn, I had no idea. I really had only looked over the Purified.

>>6061196

I like this, very.

>>6061213

62-67: Dark Summoning. An Abyssal spirit is conjured, fully materialized, as close as possible to the willworker, preferably adjacent to her. It detests the mage and trains its attacks on the fool who summoned it. The mage's player rolls Resolve + Stamina + Composure - Gnosis - Arcanum:
• Dramatic Failure: A Rank 5 Abyssal entity is summoned.
• Failure: A Rank 4 being is produced.
• One Success: A Rank 3 creature is spawned.
• Two Successes: A Rank 2 abomination is formed.
• Three Successes: A Rank 1 monster is generated.
• Four or More Successes: The summoning is prevented altogether.

>>6061846

91-99: Demonhost. The insidious Abyss envelops the willworker, disintegrating all of her clothing and items on her person, then transubstantiating her mind, body, and soul into a newborn prince of the void. The mage is instantaneously metamorphosed into an Abyssal spirit, a true demon with access to all of her arcana and rotes as Influences! The mage's player rolls Resolve + Stamina + Composure - Gnosis - Arcanum:
• Dramatic Failure: The mage is transfigured into a Rank 5 Abyssal behemoth. In addition, a number of Rank 4 Abyssal fiends equal to Gnosis + Arcanum are summoned, fuly materialized, near the character and under her command.
• Failure: The mage is mutated into a Rank 5 Abyssal horror.
• One Success: The mage is transformed into a Rank 4 Abyssal miscreation.
• Two Successes: The mage is converted into a Rank 3 Abyssal aberration.
• Three Successes: The mage is transmuted into a Rank 2 Abyssal terror.
• Four Successes: The mage is transmogrified into a Rank 1 Abyssal freak.
• Five Successes: The transformation is wholly annulled.

The newly formed herald of the Abyss is under the control of the Storyteller. She may relinquish control of it to the mage's player, who is then strongly encouraged to use her new "character" to sow havoc and anarchy, disregarding any friendships with the other characters. If the Abyssal being is reduced to 0 Corpus, the willworker is nonchalantly deposited onto the ground where the creature once stood, battered, charred, unclothed, and with a Health track containing 1 lethal damage and aggravated damage equal to her Health - 1.

Statistics for Abyssal spirits to follow.

Touhou fag, one day you must compile all this information.

>>6061854
This is pretty fucking awesome.

>>6061854
>• Dramatic Failure: The mage is transfigured into a Rank 5 Abyssal behemoth. In addition, a number of Rank 4 Abyssal fiends equal to Gnosis + Arcanum are summoned, fuly materialized, near the character and under her command.

Ahahahahahaha holy shit.

>>6061854
NOT EVEN DEATH CAN SAVE YOU FROM ME!

>>6061878
Well it IS a dramatic failure.

Damnit OP, I just want to kick some casual modern horror with my bros. Why you gotta make things complicated? Can't you see that effective STing can easilly counter munchkining? Just saying "Anything 3 dots or above needs to be justifiable with your character's history, the higher the moreso" can pretty much solve everything in a way that really helps to get to know the character and create a nice narrative.

>>6061902
If you're comfortable with creating rules yourself, then you don't need Touhoufag. OR the rulebooks.

So, my question is, can abyssal critters make babby with mages?

>>6061906
That's in the rules. It's not a rule which comes with numbers attached, so I understand that some people may miss it.

>>6061846
>>6061854

To clarify: These spirits do not return to the Abyss unless reduced to 0 Corpus. As a result of the foul method of inadvertent summoning that is Paradox, they are free to roam the earth as they wilt until slain. Now then, onto writeups for these critters:

Rank 1 Abyssal Spirit
Attributes: Distribute 8 dots between Power, Finesse, and Resistance, with an Attribute cap of 5
Willpower: Equal to Power + Resistance
Essence: 10 (the spirit is summoned/created with maximum Essence)
Initiative: Equal to Finesse + Resistance
Defense: Equal to higher of Power or Finesse
Speed: Equal to Power + Finesse + 10
Size: 5
Corpus: Equal to Resistance + 5
Influences: Arcana (if created from a transmogrified mage), distribute 1 dot into any one other Influence
Numina: Blast, Hellform, Materialize
Ban: Pick one

Rank 2 Abyssal Spirit
Attributes: Distribute 14 dots between Power, Finesse, and Resistance, with an Attribute cap of 7
Willpower: Equal to Power + Resistance
Essence: 15 (the spirit is summoned/created with maximum Essence)
Initiative: Equal to Finesse + Resistance
Defense: Equal to higher of Power or Finesse
Speed: Equal to Power + Finesse + 10
Size: 6
Corpus: Equal to Resistance + 6
Influences: Arcana (if created from a transmogrified mage), distribute 2 dots into any other Influence(s)
Numina: Blast, Hellform, Materialize, pick two others
Ban: Pick one

>>6062082

Rank 3 Abyssal Spirit
Attributes: Distribute 25 dots between Power, Finesse, and Resistance, with an Attribute cap of 9
Willpower: Equal to Power + Resistance
Essence: 20 (the spirit is summoned/created with maximum Essence)
Initiative: Equal to Finesse + Resistance
Defense: Equal to higher of Power or Finesse
Speed: Equal to Power + Finesse + 10
Size: 7
Corpus: Equal to Resistance + 7
Influences: Arcana (if created from a transmogrified mage), distribute 3 dots into any other Influence(s)
Numina: Blast, Hellform, Materialize, pick four others
Ban: Pick one

Rank 4 Abyssal Spirit
Attributes: Distribute 35 dots between Power, Finesse, and Resistance, with an Attribute cap of 12
Willpower: Equal to Power + Resistance
Essence: 25 (the spirit is summoned/created with maximum Essence)
Initiative: Equal to Finesse + Resistance
Defense: Equal to higher of Power or Finesse
Speed: Equal to Power + Finesse + 10
Size: 8
Corpus: Equal to Resistance + 8
Influences: Arcana (if created from a transmogrified mage), distribute 4 dots into any other Influence(s)
Numina: Blast, Hellform, Materialize, pick six others
Ban: Pick one

Rank 5 Abyssal Spirit
Attributes: Power 15, Finesse 15, Resistance 15
Willpower: 30
Essence: 50 (the spirit is created with maximum Essence)
Initiative: 30
Defense: 15
Speed: 40
Size: 9
Corpus: 23
Influences: Arcana (if created from a transmogrified mage), distribute 5 dots into any other Influence(s)
Numina: Blast, Hellform, Materialize, pick eight others
Ban: Pick one

>>6062082
>>6062099

Addendum: When used as Influences by Abyssal entities, spells from Arcana are not subject to Paradox, though they remain susceptible to Disbelief. I shall compile all of this in a few days and post the final version.

>>6062137

So the question is, how do I get my own?

>>6059162
>Consider the amount of XP which the following generalist character would receive under White Wolf's character creation method:
This is a faulty assumption. The generalist character doesn't receive less XP, their stats are actually more consolidated. In World of Darkness, the game isn't meant to be played where one character can be the Face, and one character is the damage dealer, and one is the brains. It's a game where everyone is meant to be tested at many, many things. No one finds it fun to sit back and do nothing until it's their turn to be actiony. The generalist is more likely to survive than the "higher XP" character.

As I said last time, this one I have no problem with, it's everything else about tearing apart the supernaturals and powers that I have a problem with. I even have only a slight problem with attempts to make contests less one sided, and that's because of the way you did it.

The only problems I have with this are: It takes away the fact that I could normally just go dot. dot. dotdot. dot. and breeze through character creation with what I wanted.
The second is the arbitrary pricing. Why not use exactly what's in the book? Why change new dots x2 and new dots x5 and new dots x3? And if these are only for character creation, why? Then the point values suddenly change.
I also say, loath as I am to admit, that you should take away all restrictions, have all the points come from the same pool, and make it more like most other point buy games, such as GURPS. That makes it easy to minmax like GURPS, of course, but it also further enhances that whole "if you take this you'll be screwed here" aspect that most point buy systems have.

>>6059569
Some people like sleep.

Touhou fag, you seem busy, but I would thank you if you could help me here later >>6060294. It's based on one of your character concepts.

>The generalist is more likely to survive than the "higher XP" character.

You're being a silly little shit now, EVERYONE in the party can be a combat master, social pro, and super professional at something.

Also, fucking shame on you if you think people are going to randomly kill you for having insufficient social pools.

>>6062178

Summoners contains an entire section on the summoning of Supernal beings, and while the spell for such a process can result in the loosing of an Abyssal fiend upon the earth, there is, alas, no prescribed method for directly summoning an emissary of the void. Neither the Scelesti legacy in the Mage core book nor the section on Abyssal magic in the Tome of the Watchtowers covers such summonings. I could attempt homebrewing such a spell, however.

>>6062191

>The second is the arbitrary pricing. Why not use exactly what's in the book? Why change new dots x2 and new dots x5 and new dots x3?
The pricing remains the same, actually. As I have stated in >>6059145, "[the] number of Attribute Points, Skill Points, and Merit Points align with the most XP-efficient permutation of statistics for character creation under the old system."

>>6061902
>Can't you see that effective STing can easilly counter munchkining?
This. If your characters are able to get away with the whole minmaxed 13 dice pool combat thing, then about the third time they escalate to violence and kill someone, they'll come home to find a bomb in their apartment, first off. They'll also be tested with having to investigate, talk to people, research things, and all variety of other tasks. It's a skills based game, and you're not meant to put all your eggs in one basket. Being outlandishly good in one place makes you useless in three others. Sure, sure, it costs less to buy things up with XP. But you still have to last long enough.

>>6061854
>• Dramatic Failure: The mage is transfigured into a Rank 5 Abyssal behemoth. In addition, a number of Rank 4 Abyssal fiends equal to Gnosis + Arcanum are summoned, fuly materialized, near the character and under her command.
Why would you do this? You know there are some people who don't see this as a bad thing.

>>6060841
>That would promote saving up virtual XP to spend later on in the life of the character, which is something I wish to sidestep.
Why? In the end it's not any different, and the game--and any ST with half a brain--already has limits in place that you need to actually train at a skill and can't just bump it from 1 to 5.

>>6062248
Cuz you know, if I didn't already have an enthusiasm for big fucking piles of gibbering mutation, seeing pictures of cute lolis with them made me want to.

Or, just roll a Lucifuge.

>>6062232
And if everyone specializes, everyone suffers.

As for having 'poor social pools', this is a setting where pissing people off means you don't live long. Especially if you consider Firearms a social pool.


I feel I need to explain the joke here, because people don't seem to get it: If you use firearms to solve problems instead of talking, that's what I mean when I say using it as a social pool.

>>6061846
>>6061854
>>6062082
>>6062099
FUCK YES YOU ARE THE BEST PARADOXES EVER

>Why would you do this?

Because the ability of the player to play the abyssal host is 100% at the whim of the ST, did you not read that part? If the ST wants to let them play their crazy ass mutant, more power to them, but a sensible ST (which I never claimed to be) can just have them Leeroy the party.

>>6062288
>As for having 'poor social pools', this is a setting where pissing people off means you don't live long. Especially if you consider Firearms a social pool.
>Social Attributes: Presence 3, Manipulation 4, Composure 1 = 70 XP
>Social Skills: Empathy 3, Persuasion (Fast-Talking) 4, Subterfuge (Lying) 4 = 84 XP
>Merits: Resources 3, Striking Looks 4 = 32 XP

Cool story, bro.

>If you use firearms to solve problems instead of talking,

Why do you endlessly repeat strawmen that have literally nothing to do with the topic at hand? Its piss easy to make an awesome beatdown character that is also a first rate diplomancer.

>>6062248
No, what I mean is why is your pricing at 2, 5, 9, 14 instead of New Dots x5?
0, 10, 25, 45, 95?
Yeah, it's more math, but it still corresponds with the actual XP gradient.

For this you could then also make a character where you put all the points into as few attributes as possible, and then one where you keep the points as even as possible, do the math for how much "XP it costs" if it was all bought up from 1, and then average the two for the character creation in your little horrible homebrew system that barely counts as WoD.

>>6062355
Hate to break it to you bro, but characters using magical powers based off their Magical Power + Mystical Bullshit pools is no less WoD than the default Basketweaving + Anal Circumference dice pools.

>>6062099
>Rank 5 Abyssal Spirit
>Attributes: Power 15, Finesse 15, Resistance 15
>Willpower: 30

I AM BHAAL, LORD OF DESTRUCTION.

>>6062318
Did I even link that character? No, I'm making generalizations. That character also has poor combat, which is still not good. My point is that if you do something big, something else is going to be small. There are 16 skills, and that makes it hard to be good and have something really big.

>>6062336
Describe "first rate". Also describe beat down character. Because I could make one myself, focused on killin', but it wouldn't be with a 13 dice pool

>>6062383
um... yes it is.
Regular WoD: Magic is based on your mundane abilities, and not either intellect or some magic stat, like most other games.
This bullshit: Based on a magic stat, like most other games.

There's no "basketweaving+Anal circumference" rolls, it's just that some people apparently have trouble understanding how Intelligence+Expression can mesmerize someone, or how Dexterity+Athletics+FIRE can be throwing a fireball.
Plus, in the existing system, if you want more than one power, you can't specialize. Each different power set uses different skills and attributes, and each one is likely to have six different things you need to focus on. Between three power sets you might have a bit of overlap, but you're still not going to be able to get away with only focusing on one pool unless you want to be the guy who ONLY can throw fireballs.

I wonder if it'd be possible to bind the daemonhost after the fact. How would it be done if it could be?

Likewise, touhou, any ideas on how to bind a daemonhost?

>>6062216

I am slightly flattered by your usage of one of my ideas. I shall get to you in a moment, so do be patient. What exactly is it that you seek help with, mechanically? Contracts? Your last merit dot? Your skill dots?

>>6062439

>That character also has poor combat
A +5 initiative modifier is mediocre, yet not too shabby. Strength 1 is all that is required to wield a Colt Single Action Army or an M1911A1 in two hands. Stamina 1 produces a Health of 6, but due to the glass cannon nature of nWoD combat, that shan't prove to be too much of a hindrance. 12 dice for a shot, however, or 13 if a laser sight is attached to the weapon, is quite appreciable.

>>6062471

>how Intelligence+Expression can mesmerize someone
The dice pool for playing a known musical piece or writing a book with a basis in facts is apparently more appropriate than the dice pool for actually persuading or deceiving someone, of course.

>how Dexterity+Athletics+FIRE can be throwing a fireball
Of course, when there are far too many means by which to skin this cat, be it Wits + Resolve, Resolve + Stamina, Presence + Occult or Science, Wits + Occult, Resolve + Occult, Manipulation + Occult, or Intelligence + Dexterity, this becomes rather contrived, does it not?

>>6062558

Contracts, Merits, and all around character developtment.

Oh, and books and pages that I have to be aware. I'm already having problem with the whole mop fencing thing.

>>6062082
That's not a hydra. It has multiple tails. It's a mass of snakes.

>>6062558

Hey, dipshit. THEY ARE ALL EQUALLY VALID, IT ONLY DEPENDS ON THE WILLWORKERS IMAGO.

ACTUALLY READ THE FUCKING BOOK INSTEAD OF MAKING PROBLEMS WHERE THERE ARE NONE.

>>6062712

I've been watching this thread and was about to say the same thing. Really, there are no problems with the rote/improvised system unless you're too stupid to read the book.

You do realize the OP is Edward, right? This is a troll thread and you all fell for it.

>>6062712
If everything is equally valid, then why complain about alternative rules?

>>6062558
>The dice pool for playing a known musical piece or writing a book with a basis in facts is apparently more appropriate than the dice pool for actually persuading or deceiving someone, of course.
What happens to the audience when someone plays music? They become entranced. Mesmerized, even. So yes, it is more appropriate. And a book with facts would be Academics. A novel would be Expression.
Unless of course you're Dan Brown, then your facts are Expression.

>this becomes rather contrived
No, not really. Those are all over, what, seven different splats? It would be more contrived to see them use the same things. In each of those cases it makes sense within the context of the game's fluff, and on a greater level the feel of the attributes in general.

For instance, Wits and Resolve are often used for fire based moves, but Composure will never be.

Actually, all of those with Occult are from Geist, and over four different power sets. Occult is used for the Elemental Keys because they are the most esoteric and occult of the Manifestations. They're not fire, or water, or earth, or wind. They're the Pyre-Flame, the Tear Stained, the Gravedirt, and the Cold Wind Keys.

>>6062742
Wow... you're really dumb.

>>6062746

I was talking about him not getting Imago at all. Willworking isn't uniform, and you shouldn't bitch that somebody thinking "come on flame, just an inch. Just an inch. Now hotter" does things different from "I STOKE THE FLAMES OF MY SOUL AND THROW THEM AT YOU, WHILE MAKING AN ANGRY FACE"

I just got done reading this and I'm pissed. pricing for Arcana isn't arbitrary, they fucking explain it three times in the first book and two in Mysteries(where they're doing a magic overview.)

What the fuck man. WoD character creation is fine as it is.

>>6062355
Because one is attribute points and one is exp points.

>>6062864
He wasn't even talking about arcana.

>>6062925

He's just changing it to be the guy who changed it.
There really aren't any problems with character creation, just because his group and storyteller aren't creative does not mean that the system is broken.

>>6062964
And yet many other people have had problems with it.

So perhaps you should play your game in your we, and we shall play ours in our own.

I don't quite get the comment about overspecialization, does your group really start with skills above three?

>>6059262
> I shall not put forth my assessment on changelings, for although I find their diminished dice pools, instant action requirements for "buff" powers, and high Glamour and Willpower costs to be major weaknesses, they are consistently lauded as powerful entities for reasons unknown to me (though perhaps it may have to do with pledges)
It's because their power is in Fluff abilities, not mechanics.

>diminished dice pools
They aren't meant to be powerhouses like this. The reason they use Attribute+Wyrd is because they're meant to be weaker, power wise. They get pretty awesome powers, yeah, but they aren't meant to be like Mages, or even Vampires. They can do quite a lot though, this is their strength. They have almost as much variety with what they can do as Mages. They can even do things Mages would have a hard time with because they're using magic on a different level. For instance, Contracts of Smoke. For a Mage, erasing the trail they've made would probably be Vulgar, and involve rewriting reality. For a Changeling, though, it's piss easy.
>instant action requirements for "buff" powers
I wasn't aware this was unusual, I don't really pay attention to the actions.

>>6063026
>and high Glamour and Willpower costs
They can also get energy back easier than anyone else. They get energy from any emotion. At all. Period. The anger you feel while fighting them? The pain they can cause you? They can get energy back from fighting. Summer Court does it all the time.
>they are consistently lauded as powerful entities for reasons unknown to me (though perhaps it may have to do with pledges)
With Pledges, they can conjure Traits out of thin air, and force any other group over a barrel. You've said before that an Acanthus could get rid of the Pledge? For that they'd need to be aware of it first, and by breaking the Pledge with magic, they actually doom themselves to drawback. Even if they didn't, and even if they could get rid of it without consequence, that's a free trait. Due to an accounting error, you're now rich. You break the Pledge and that error gets fixed.
And you're likely to be investigated for fraud or whatever.

>>6062926
Yes...... but why not use XP for the attributes?
With this, there's still a divide between putting stats into things in character creation and buying them up in play.

>>6063039
Don't forget Goblin Contracts.

"Oh fuck, I'm in a bad place. Yo, forces of the lone underdog, remember those favors I've been doing for you? I'm calling in my marker. I need 3 dots in a Merit, stat."

>>6063039
>With this, there's still a divide between putting stats into things in character creation and buying them up in play.

You mean you'd rather have bigger numbers that result in the same thing? Wow, it's like you suck jRPG cock.

>>6063109
Goblin contracts, eh? Shitsux. If I wanted to pay XP for something that makes me break even due to the drawback, I'd just toss the XP into the drain.

>>6063039
>With this, there's still a divide between putting stats into things in character creation and buying them up in play.
Only in the sense that you must put a certain amount of your starting points into each category. That's by design, so I don't see a reason to remove it.

>>6062991
Yeah, the generation system in WoD encourages stats of 4 and shoring up your weaknesses with exp afterward. There's no reason not to start with a 4 if it's good for what you're trying to do with the character. Only the 5th dot has increased cost at generation.

>>6063127
>You mean you'd rather have bigger numbers that result in the same thing? Wow, it's like you suck jRPG cock.
I'm saying that there's no reason to use a different system than the one already in place.
What the fuck do jRPGs even have to do with anything?

>>6063145
>Yeah, the generation system in WoD encourages stats of 4 and shoring up your weaknesses with exp afterward.
No it doesn't. The only possible way you could get that is if your definition of encourage is "doesn't discourage.

>>6063166
>Cost effectiveness and essentially getting free xp isn't encouragement at all! Why would anyone want free xp at the cost of taking a session or two to fill in the gaps of non-specialized stuff much more quickly than it would take to build up things you want to be good at?

>>6063127
>Goblin contracts, eh? Shitsux. If I wanted to pay XP for something that makes me break even due to the drawback, I'd just toss the XP into the drain.
All pledges do that, Goblin Contracts allow you to make pledges without there being a second party there. So it allows you to use one of the best buffs in the Changeling arsenal without the standard drawback.

>>6063166
It doesn't discourage it. It DOES discourage the alternative. So yes, it encourages it.

>>6063195
It's "free XP" at the cost of borking yourself in other areas. I've never ever ever felt the need to buy something up to 4 and leave everything else in the dust unless it was part of my character's concept.

>>6063252
That is, unless being lacking in an area was my concept.

Like if I made Kamina, he'd have 4 Resolve and 1 Int.
OR FIVE RESOLVE.

>>6063252
>at the cost of borking yourself in other areas.
Read it again. If you still don't understand, I'm going to have to assume that you're a troll.

>and shoring up your weaknesses with exp afterward
>at the cost of taking a session or two to fill in the gaps of non-specialized stuff much more quickly than it would take to build up things you want to be good at

sage for Edwardfagging.

>>6063252
>borking yourself in other areas
I don't think you know what you're talking about.

edward stop. Your idea is bad by edward standards.

This is needlessly complicated.

An alternative to the Perils of the Warp Paradox, I now present to you Sidereal Paradox:

1) Roll a d10 for every success on a Paradox roll.
2) Consult table:

1 - Soul Burns: The Mage loses all Mana, cannot regain Mana, and cannot cast spells for Gnosis+Arcanum days.

2 - Thoughts Wither: The Mage loses all Willpower and cannot regain Willpower for Gnosis+Arcanum days.

3 - Flesh Fails: The Mage suffers a -3 Wound penalty for Gnosis+Arcanum weeks, which cannot be neutralized and stacks with Wound penalties from all other sources.

4 - Light Fades: The Mage's permanent Gnosis is reduced by 1 for (pre-Paradox) Gnosis+Arcanum weeks. The Mage cannot increase his Gnosis in any way for the duration.

5 - Resolve Shatters: The Mage cannot regain Willpower from Virtues or Vices for the remainder of the Chronicle.

6 - Vital Bleed: All spells cast by the Mage cost an extra point of Mana, even those who did not initially cost Mana, which cannot be mitigated by any means, nor can the Mage cast Conjunctional Spells, Abyss-enhanced Magic, or Rotes for Gnosis+Arcanum days.

7 - Visage Rots: The Mage suffers a -5 penalty to all social rolls for Gnosis+Arcanum months.

8 - Rip Van Winkle: The Mage falls into a coma lasting Gnosis+Arcanum days, cannot be awakened by any means before the duration expires, and awakens with no willpower. Willpower can be recovered normally afterwards.

9 - Supernal Punishment: The Mage immediately suffers Gnosis+Arcanum dice of aggravated damage which can only be healed by time.

10 - Snuffing the Light: One Sleeper or Sleepwalker beloved or close to the Mage dies, painfully and horrifically. If the Mage does not have any loved ones or close friends, this venom lurks in his bloodstream until such a tie is formed, when it strikes. The slain person will not leave a ghost by any means.

It's not as hilarious or maddening as the Perils of the Warp option, but it can be considerably more brutal.

I love this thread so fucking much.

> The Mage cannot regain Willpower from Virtues or Vices for the remainder of the Chronicle.

That is arrgh.

>>6063944

In my group, it'd actually be the softest one to have because we never remember to note when we indulge our Virtues/Vices.

>>6063909
It and you need to die.

>>6063788
I think the Perils of the Warp option is more detailed. Fuck yeah, Abyssal Legion!

>>6064001

Yeah.

Exalted and DH are pretty vastly different in design philosophy, so they don't go too in-depth on how fucked your character is.

Makes for not-as-amusing results.

>>6063970
>durf durf

>>6064001
Best option: Combine them into one table.

Honestly, there is absolutely no good reason for the point allocation system in the character generation to be different from what it is during play, and if touhoufriend's houserules unify those mechanics and don't break anything else in the process, they're good houserules.

>>6064147
>hurf hur

>>6063252
>It's "free XP" at the cost of borking yourself in other areas.

No, it's free xp at absolutely no cost to you. Even if you want to make a generalist character you STILL are better off specializing at character generation, then using the regular xp you gain in the first few sessions to cheaply raise your lowest stats to average (rather than starting out average at everything, then expensively raising some of your average stats to a high level).

The normal WoD chargen rewards specialization and the only reason to not do it during chargen, EVEN IF YOU WANT A GENERALIST CHARACTER, is if you want to be penalized by the system for no reason.

>>6062505
bump in hopes he'll answer this.

>>6062505
>>6064953

This is but a house rule I propose as part of a replacement for the Paradox rules, though I do suppose that it could be considered an expansion of the Manifestation-type Paradox present in the default rules. In any case, since Abyssal entities are considered spirits, they would be susceptible to any usage of the Spirit arcanum that would affect, well, spirits. As such, they can be commanded or bound through the use of such spells.

So, why do you not just calculate an EXP average for each category and and use that? Or did you do this and just simplify some fractions?

>>6065128

>Or did you do this and just simplify some fractions?

This is exactly that. It helps reduce complexity in character generation.

TOUHOUFAG IS CREDIT TO TEAM!

>>6065196
For now.

>>6065196
Yeah, no.

>>6065149
Seems sensible enough.
Why do you see a need to differentiate mundane XP from superanatural XP?

>>6065149
Note that all her answers are in base 9. (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11...)

New WoD ? Plz get out of my sight ... just plz ...

>>6065245
>plz
opinion disregarded, go back to school

>>6065268
what school ?
university that I finnished 2 years ago ?

>>6065245
Because it's so hard to adapt fluff...

I had a lot of good times with oWoD, but compared to new, the old system is pretty bad.

>>6065224

>Why do you see a need to differentiate mundane XP from superanatural XP?

Such that the players are free to spend XP on increasing their characters' mundane capacities as they wilt without being pressured to spend every last bit of XP on Supernatural Advantage and powers. In conjunction with the house rules I had proposed for supernatural powers' dice pools, this produces a game which encourages much more freedom and diversity in both the mundane and supernatural aspects of a character.

>>6065278
>implying you can't get through college without learning a damned thing

>>6065318
>>6065305
>>6065278
Oh, just shit the fuck up, all of you.

>>6065289
How is nWoD better than old one ?
Becouse they do it all again from the beginning and you don't know every detail from books by heart ?
I gave nWoD a chance. it just doesn't have that something that oWoD has (I play it every time i got occasion). You can call it atmosphere is you want.

>>6065305
Don't you think that it might be preferable to allow players to decide wether they want a character to specialize in either mundane or supernatural abilities, or a balance of both? This might be relevant to a character's concept, and it might be nice to have freedom to decide in this reguard, at least.

>>6065278
>finnished
>plz
You're an English major right?

>>6065347
Perhaps you should read where I talked about converting fluff.

When I sad nWoD was better, I meant purely from a mechanical perspective. The system itself is better, exclusive from the fluff.

>>6065370
The problem comes with specializing in supernatural shit being strictly better than mundane stuff.

>>6065383
What do you expect? My female English prof would put emoticons in her emails and I even hinted that was unprofessional.

>>6065397
>All characters must be mechanically awesome! If you just want to play an accurately described regular person, get the fuck out!

>>6065383
I forgot about all the grammar nazis lurking in the darkness out there.
What's your problem with "plz" ? It's like ownz, pwnz, rulez etc. etc.

>>6065397
Is this really the case in all of the different WoD settings? I can easily see it in Mage, but I'm not entirely convinced for Vampire, for example.

>>6065446
Nobody here in /tg/ types ownz, pwnz, etc. etc.

Also, I hate plz being used because please is six fucking letters why can't you fucking type it out.

>>6065456
Vampire: WHO NEEDS SOCIAL SKILLS, I'VE GOT DISCIPLINES

>>6065534
You're on the internets and you're talking about spelling ? Wow ... I just got
flashback from 1999. Good times.

>>6065434
nWoD doesn't even do normal people right, you'll fail far too many rolls to be surviving/solving anything supernatural.

>>6065619
Spoken like someone who's never even tried.

>>6065634
Spoken like a fag.

>>6065657
Ah, the final refuge for the clinically retarded.

Oh God why is this thread back?

BEGONE CREATURE OF DARKNESS!

>>6065657
>>6065593
Reported.

Don't care about thread, but Iku is mai waifu.

>>6065434
Then play a fucking mortals game.

Better yet, play a Normals game - All stats are 1 or 2, skills cap at 3. No XP - you can only learn things by going to school or spending time at your very, very related job. If you want an attribute of 3, or a skill of 4, be prepared for at least a year of intensive downtime training.

>>6065926
I'd hit it.

>>6061854
>• Dramatic Failure: The mage is transfigured into a Rank 5 Abyssal behemoth. In addition, a number of Rank 4 Abyssal fiends equal to Gnosis + Arcanum are summoned, fuly materialized, near the character and under her command.

Isn't that a little overkill?

>>6059347
The WoD would suddenly be better if it had neutronium golems in it.

>>6066213
>Then play a fucking mortals game.

Or you know, I could just play an actual WoD game, not "let's all make useless lopsided characters!"

>>6067375
It would take a fucking miracle to get a dramatic failure.

>>6059385
Why not work "Unkillable" in there too? OH LOL I GOT HIT BY A TRUCK! BACK UP I GET

>>6068258
Too expensive. I'd rather have massive stats.

>>6065305

Isn't that essentially admitting that the Supernatural Advantage you wrote in for the first set of alternative rules really is a power stat no one would ever pass up?

>>6068466

Mind that "Supernatural XP" limitations are applied to all supernatural traits. Arcana in addition to Gnosis, Disciplines and Devotions in addition to Blood Potency, etc.

It's more recognizing that, by and large, XP spent on *any* supernatural trait will get you more bang for your buck than XP spent on any mundane trait, so without limitation it'd be safer to spend XP on supernatural traits.

Mind that the old system had this problem too, but it was veiled by the fact there wasn't a clear cut line between "bought for mundane advantage" and "bought for supernatural advantage".

Ex: I'm a Time-specialized Mage. I buy Investigation. Most of my rotes are keyed to Investigation.

I increased a mundane trait, but for supernatural advantage.

>>6068466

Mages need to decide between Gnosis, Arcana, and rotes; sin-eaters bear the burden of choosing between Psyche, Manifestations, Keys, and Ceremonies; the Purified must choose either Chi, Siddhi, or Numina to purchase; and so on and so forth. Choices, choices...

Shit is shitty.

>>6068497
>Ex: I'm a Time-specialized Mage. I buy Investigation. Most of my rotes are keyed to Investigation.

But you can use Investigation for mundane stuff too, can't forget that.

>>6068944

I can, but that isn't *why* I bought it, nor what I will use it for, in the instance of that example.

>>Mind that the old system had this problem too, but it was veiled by the fact there wasn't a clear cut line between "bought for mundane advantage" and "bought for supernatural advantage".

THAT IS THE POINT OF WOD SUPERNATURAL POWES GODDAMIT

>>6068961
But you still have Investigation. It's a mundane stat, you're buying a mundane stat, no question there.

>>6069025

For supernatural advantage.

That's why just saying "This is mundane XP, that is supernatural XP" wouldn't have worked in the old system.

Buying Investigation is a mundane expenditure, but I'd still gain supernatural advantage from it, rendering the distinction futile.

In the new system, it's clean cut.

Holy balls, this thread is still up? Awesome.

Just a few questions:

1) Are the permanent Attribute increases from Blood Bathing, well, permanent? Or do they only last until your next bathtime?
2) Why would anyone play a Purified? Their supernatural advantage only goes up to 5, and all they get in exchange are 3 extra Merit dots and 5 skill dots. Whoop-de-doo; no wonder Touhoufag decided to power them up a little.
3) Why are sin-eaters below mages? They don't seem all that hot to me.

>>6069807
>You can sageru all you want, but you'll never break my Japanese spirit!

>>6069807
1.) They should last you long enough so that you'll always have them.
2.) No clue.
3.) Memoribilia weapons have +5 equipment bonus, and their powers are by far and large average or AWESOME.

Also they have great perks.

>>6069807
Fairly certain it lasts until the next ritual. It lasts at least that long and it doesn't stack on itself.

>>6069807

1) I don't have the book handy, but methinks it's to next bath.
2) I dunno, ROLEPLAYAN maybe?
Or they shouldn't have made Second Sight because there are already mages?

>>6069852
>>6069854
Hokay den.

>>6069878
>2) I dunno, ROLEPLAYAN maybe?
Okay, point, but interms of interest, Promethean and Changeling have that better for me

>>6069923

Well, to each his own. Frankly I think SS does its job rightly, and it's not the same job a full bookline does.