Oh hey it's what every 14 year old atheist thinks they are. Let's bring it into the game, right next to Drizzt clones and Elminster wannabes!

>>5133786
It's an ANtagonist, dipshit. A person the party is supposed to fight. Not a good guy. A person who kills people for worshipping gods. A person who steals power from clerics they need to keep people from dying.

He's supposed to be charismatic, and supposed to be sympathetic, but ultimately, he's someone the party is supposed to both fight and defeat.

it's cool, dude it's only a troll

>>5133810
He also steal the power of war clerics, of specifically aim for healers ?

>>5133810

Whatever, it's the same immature wank-off. There's nothing charismatic about it unless you're 14 years old and whining because LIFE ISN'T FAIR MAN!

>>5133825
Yeah, you're right.
>>5133828
Ur-Priests steal power from all the gods - and being evil is a requirement for the class, although, as an NPC, that can easily be waived if you want - particularly considering that he's also an Athar, and doesn't believe the gods are gods in the first place.

To repeat: "n truth, the Ur-Priests requirement that they be evil might even be possible to wave, if you consider their motivations as an Athar. It's a GOOD thing you steal divine power from clerics then - as you are robbing people of examples of it; showing the gods as fallible, and ultimately, robbing them of worship. This is good, because it means mankind might eventually rise up against them."

>>5133836

Please refrain from ruining this thread. OP's idea is fine, and I'm considering stealing it.

I like the idea, and regardless of all the "what? Atheism, in MY pantheistic setting? FFFFFFFFFF Mary Sue wannabe goth snowflake faggot" bawwwing, I'd welcome a well-roleplayed character like that even as a PC. His entire existence would be an uphill battle and would probably end in misery, but it would be a hell of a ride.

>>5133786
>>5133836

Look how edgy and cool you are.

>>5133836
Unlike clerics of D&D gods, clearly a non-immature wankoff - but any variation on the god theme is immature wankery, got that.

>>5133878
As I said, I like the idea of an entire party of antagonists. If you read the first three posts in the other thread, you'll get the full idea.

The primary reason why it's an NPC character is because it's a combination of two NPC classes. Unless you've got a trustworthy character, it would be difficult for you to do it without ruining the game.

That said, the party still needs two more characters. Frankly, a hubristic mage is somewhat overdone - I need something inspirational for the character. Someone who could believably defy the gods, be evil enough that you wouldn't like them, but still be sympathetic.

Also, I suppose a roguelike character would also be necessary, although I don't have ANY ideas there.

>>5133853
Oh, and I'd like it best if this thread idea is stolen as much as possible. It's unlikely that I, personally, will ever use it - so I'm mostly making it for the sake of other people as a resource.

>>5133836
U R EPICK TROOL

Warlord

I really hate to do a Rastalin type character, to be honest. If the Anti-Theist party needs a mage, however, he would fit the bill.

However, I'd rather that the mage character *hated* the gods, rather than wanting to basically become one.

Perhaps one could do the "hubristic engineer" angle; someone who wants to gain enough pure magical power to become godlike, and show the gods that mortals can do the same things.

However, that doesn't really satisfy me either.

Perhaps someone who believes the gods are shackling magic - limiting it so that mortals cannot gain enough power to contest their rule. Someone who wishes to kill the gods so that mankind can claim their birthright. Yes; that is a motivation I can feel.

>an antagonist character
>A person who believe the gods are not actually gods, but pretenders. He/She believes that they are evil manipulators, who control mankind.

Here you go. That's him.

>>5133912

>That said, the party still needs two more characters. Frankly, a hubristic mage is somewhat overdone - I need something inspirational for the character.

Why not a charismatic leader of some sort - bard, perhaps - who believes, with all his heart, that mortals are being held back by the gods. Someone who believes that arcane study, clever flexibility, and strength of arms is more than enough to conquer the multiverse, and these things are being held in check by excessive reliance on the shiftless and complacent deities that rule the land.

He wouldn't actively want to kill the gods - not directly, anyway. But since he wants to wean everyone away from faith in the divine, his ultimate goal does, unintentionally, spell doom for at least a few deities, since without worshipers they will die. Thus, the gods - and their churches - want him dead, so he regretfully (but without hesitation) does his damnedest to foil their plans at every turn and overthrow their temples and institutions.

Basically he's HUMANITY FUCK YEAH in charismatic leader form.

>>5133971
... Who?

Anyway, the last class - I'd like it to be a Psion. It's the one kind of power that's entirely personal, and thus, the gods have NOTHING to do with it. They can't take it away.

This one can be a pure nihilist, hubristic, nietzsche plagarizing jingostic individual. Simply put, someone who believes in themselves and ONLY themselves, and hates the gods simply because they are more powerful - and they believe they could reach that level of power. Perhaps they believe that they could prove it by slaying the gods.

I think of them all, this would be the least sympathetic character if done wrong. But if you show enough loss in their past - their entire people destroyed by divine wrath, for example, while they survived by simple virtue of their power - you could make it a combination of revenge and hubris that is interesting and likable.

>>5134043

Aren´t there a bunch of psionic gods mentioned in the psionic handbook?

>>5133978
That was my intention for the initial Defiant/Ur-Priest character, actually, except with a somewhat harder edge.

So thus far, we have:
The Defiant/Ur-Priest "Humanity FUCK YEAH" guy who wants to kill the gods and inspires others to row row fight the powa.

The Fighter/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker who is basically Guts from Berserk with a name change.

The Mage who believes humanity is being held back from their true magical potential by the gods of magic.

And finally, the Psion who believes solely in their own power and wishes to defeat the gods because his people were destroyed by an act of divine wrath - which he survived solely due to his own power.

Any other ideas for party members?

>>5134052
Yes, but psionics are wholly an individual thing; they come from you, yourself. Psionic gods don't put caps on it like Mystral did on magic; and if they did, it would just be more reason for this character to hate them.

Well, that's not all that different than a setting I have. It's set with a henotheistic type of pantheon, where there is a transient (with a bit of imminence when it's necessary) creator god, who's not unlike the Christian God. In the first run, i had them revive a dead civilization, which exclusively worshiped this god, that sealed itself away in order to trap an immortally powered demon. The first son and heir to the emperor of this ancient empire (theocratic autocracy) was freed to acquire the shards of an artifact that would channel the power of this one god to obliterate the evil that this demon was ready to unleash upon the world.

For the next campaign in this setting, I'll be setting up the conspiracy of the lesser gods (basically just highly powered celestial entities) to try and destroy or seal the transient creator god in order to have control of the universe to themselves, without the threat of intervention from this significantly more powerful celestial being. Which is why these lesser gods haven't yet tried to become more imminent on the earth, especially after the test they provided with sending that all powerful demon to the earth. It'll eventually end in an epic campaign to defeat the lesser gods in order to maintain freedom on the earth.

>>5134087
I'm running a doppelganger assassin that was convinced by Zinzerenda (minor drow goddess) that she wasn't worth anything except as a killing machine. Now that she see's that she could have done more with her meager existence after Lolth killed and absorbed Zinzerenda that she want's to kill Lolth and absorb her immortality in order to have eternity to find peace with herself. I would think that would fit for your rogue requirement.

rerardchun sux donkey ear's lol bookmrak teh real board :

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>hgfocfgdo

Quite frankly, I believe the best motivation for a party like this is nothing less than the destruction of the Wall of the Faithless itself.

Although individual settings differ, this is an excellent objective. The characters are epic level, and already powerful enough to contest the gods on their own turf. What they lack is an army - and a viable means of converting the masses to their side.

By destroying the wall of the faithless, they would gain a ready made army of people who hate the gods, and for good reason. They could use these people, arm them, and then carve out their own territory - a place free from the rule of the gods.

Not total deicide - at least not initially. Instead, they seek merely to free the oppressed, gain an army, and give people the option to live without the gods - carving out an afterlife with their own hands.

However, there's a reason the wall exists. It keeps Asmodeus (or some other terrible reason) imprisoned in the nine hells - and he's powerful enough to smite greater gods casually.

Despite their noble objective, despite their sympathetic cause, they have to be stopped - or the apocalypse will come.

The gods won't stop them. That's the irony of it - they're too busy squabbling amongst themselves, ineffectual to care, or do anything if they do care.

Only the PC's can save the multiverse.

What about flipping the concept around a bit? A mage, psion, or monk that doesn't care about the gods at all, but focused on showing they aren't needed. Not quite a SCIENCE!™ theme, but definitely focused on self reliance, and possibly a desire for the gods to see humanity (or appropriate race) as equals.

>>5134328
That's also a perfectly workable concept. However, I'd prefer to flesh this one out first.

>>5134279

I love this.

Maybe you could have a sympathetic character molded on The Dove from Mask of the Betrayer try to sway the PCs into joining in the destruction of the wall.

A mid-to-high level boss, perhaps, one they might feel like heels for killing.

Or inspire them to search for a third path, one that may both render the wall powerless AND keep the evil sealed.

>>5134389
That's perfect.

Of course, there's also the option of, "open it anyway, rally everyone, fight Asmodeus", that's a viable fourth option.

Being an atheist in a universe where there actual are gods is NOT the same as being an atheist in real life.If my local priest could make my child better with obviously divine magic,I'd be pious as a sonovabitch.
An atheist on Earth is just being logical and not making up shit . An atheist in a typcal Dnd world isn't really an atheist, he is an anti-theist, a god killer, because the gods definitely exist. Not only do they exist, but with enough occult power, you can go to where they live, mug them and take their wallet.
I like the idea of a rogue , from a poor but pious family. His relatives died when he was a child because of a plague, and they couldn't scape together the few hundred gold for the Cure Disease spell. He grew up alone on the mean streets, and clawed his way up. Noone ever helped him for kindness, and his heart has grown cold. His god is money.Oh, and now he heads the largest thieve's guild on the continent.Initiation into this guild calls for a mafia-like ritual involving the burning of a Divine scroll and shedding your blood onto a pile of gold, while renouncing all loyalties beyond the guild.
This god-hating mastermind is the spymaster and finanicer for the Ubervillain, and his guild makes a good surce or minions to pursue and harass the characyters as they level up. Make them fear going to cities and buying anything.

>>5134471
cool self insert marty stu you smug shithead

How about a Druid who believes that the Gods have become stagnant and corrupt because they've been sitting pretty at the top of the food chain for too long? The Druid believes that conflict breeds virtue, and that if you're an absolute power with no conflict, you easily forget the beings beneath you and become weak and cruel. The Druid's goal is to become a beast that preys on the Gods so that they remember their place in the natural world rather than thinking themselves above it.

>>5134471
That's a feasible rogue.

I think the common link between all the characters should be hatred of the divine due to tragedy caused by the divine - either directly, or through inaction. We should be capable of sympathizing with them - perhaps even wanting to side with them.

However, they ARE evil, the ARE over the line - and even if they're doing things for the right reasons, it's ultimately going to lead to disaster. That's the important point.

>my character is just as brilliant and rational as me so when I play D&D i like to kill gods and stuff just like one of my japanese animes XD

>>5134480
Lukewarm troll is lukewarm

I'd like to point out that the wall of the faithless only exists in the forgotten realms. None of the other settings use it, so it might not be the best plot element to center this thing around.

>>5134525
These are ideas for bad guys,pay attention and be less stupid, if you can

This has the added advantage of making sense of the unfortunate 3x phenomenon of "whoa everyone wants to be a cleric?" They could be allying to respond to the Ubermensch's threat.

>>5134553
>be less stupid
>atheism D&D thread with Kamina images

You can't be serious.

>>5134570
Particularly good because the Ubermensch is, in fact, largely immune to divine magic, as I stated in the other thread.

>>5134580
Calm down bro, your butthurt is showing. You don't need to troll pretend atheism to get into heaven.

>>5134546

On the bright side if you're playing 3.5 all the Mary Sue characters are unoptimised as hell, they'd make rubbish allies to epic pcs.

>>5134580
Man, where did all the skillfull trolls go? You summer ones suck balls.

>>5134546
Well, what alternative do you suggest, then?

Can't kill the gods because it would destroy reality? Can't set up their own demiplane because the tantrum-throwing gods would destroy everything?

You need a compelling reason, if the wall won't work.

>>5134607
Is there a way to build a character who disbelieves in magic hard enough to make him completely immune?

>>5134674
Not that I'm aware, although there are several classes that are made as magekillers.

This thread.

>>5134674

No, because you said 'magic'. Not believing in magic in D&D is like playing a Luddite who disbelieves Power Fields and Boltguns to immunity in DH.

'Individual rifle munitions with intelligent explosive rounds? That's a fucking absurd munition in sustained warfare. I call bullshit'
*pfft*
'Well waddya know...'

OP

Two things.

1. As has been pointed out, in a setting where real gods really created the universe and exist... You'd not be an atheist, you'd be an anti-theist.

2. The forces of the Gods, with their VAST numerical superiority and having been around... ohh... for thousands upon thousands of years, would have seen your like before (if it's possible to resist or sublimate the power of the gods and whatnot as a class, with learning and tenates and techniques someone had to be around to show you the way or get you started or train you) and would thus have seen someone else like you before, and would thus have learnt that little lesson and created fucking HIT SQUADS that are specifically designed to use weapons, powers and whatnot that you can't gain leverage against... and whose sole purpose is to make you and people like you DEAD.

Seriously, think about it. They'd got LOTS of worshipers.The outlay for them to create hit squads to take out people like you would be negligible. They'd be like a religious secret ploice, and the gods would have organized them ages ago. They'd roam the lands looking for people just like you, armed in ways that specifically target your weaknesses and vulnerabilities, and they'd be MUCH higher level than you and with a support network of spies and informants including potentially ever person that worships any god in the setting.

>>5134672
>Can't set up their own demiplane because the tantrum-throwing gods would destroy everything?

WELCOME TO EVERWORLD!

>>5134719

This thread has been reported for Heresy. Administratum Legerdmen #122370-AB, #214446-FF and #214659-FF please remain at your work cubicles.

=I=

>>5134719
Not necessarily. Remember, the Gods have their own concerns...the war with the nine hells, securing plenty of worshipers, the schemes and politics of other Gods...the fact is, most Gods probably wouldn't even notice a group of mortals with designs on their downfall because, frankly, most of them probably wouldn't be a threat. It'd be like asking human governments to notice that some caged animals in a zoo are acting kinda funny. Now, I'm sure when they realize the ACTUAL threat this new group poses they'd shit a brick, but by then it may be too late. Cue the PCs.

>>5134744
Whew, thank god someone injected some 40gay into this thread. Cause heresy isn't totally old and overused, or anything. At all.

>>5134719
1: I named this thread "D&D Anti-Theist Ubermensch" and not "D&D Athiest Ubermensch" to avoid just this problem. Don't bring this shit up again. Yes, he's an Anti-Theist. Shut the fuck up about it.

2: How do you think they all became epic level? The point is that, yes, the gods have hit squads. They've survived them. But the PC's could well be the hit squad of the gods they don't survive.

>>5134776

The problem with a society with a God Emperor is pretty much any crime beyond the local scale is heresy. Treason? Heresy. Conspiracy? Heresy. Murder of an official? Heresy. Actual heresy? That's like... super heresy. The word has to choke up a TON of mileage and there's no other good equivalent since Apostasy has a designated use. Sucks to be a 40K writer.

As an example of an opressive group of people who've seen this shit before it is valid. As do some of the darker depictions of the orders of Helm.

>>5134832
Well, part of the irony of the concept is that the gods are, in fact, ineffectual, or otherwise constrained, in a way proving the villains right.

The only ones moving against them would be the hit squads. Make no mistake, that's exactly what the PC's would be - like the gods or hate them, they'd be killing the people who would do a great and wonderful thing.

>>5134849

Only this isn't '40gay', and on that note a 40K that ignores things like Faith Abilities and a means to use transhuman abilities and tech without making yourself vunerable to much more physically active gods. This is D&D, particularly Forgotten Realms, where gods get involved right up to the literal granting or world chaning miracles level. The hit squads are the trigger, 1-9 levels of divine magic are the weapon.

>>5134719 Fuck YEAR! God Squad Hitmen up in yer shit!
>>5134749 Uhhhhh*bullshit explanation that can be summarized as hand waving in panic and saying "Nuh Uh"*!

Dude, gotta agree with above tripfag, the Gods would have had your number from the moment you were born.

They'd have seen shit like your character before (it's a class right? Then there's been people like you before, otherwise how are you learning shit without guidance?) and once they knew about it, they'd have shit bricks in the past, and promptly mobilized 100,000 fighters with faithful mages and rogues too (not every worshiper is a priest you can bamboozle)

Then once they'd exterminated a prior threat, they'd bless and charge that army to keep on keeping on with putting people like you down, funding it from the church coffers.

You wouldn't have to attract the attention of the gods, they'd have mortals handling that for them. No need for the gods to take action, they have millions of non clerical followers for that.

>>5134883
Hey, you, read:
>>5134849
It's sorta the point of the whole concept.

>>5134749
The Tripfag is right. Just give it up.

>>5134883
You can make the inverse argument about any good religious PC group. Why didn't the lords of Hell forsee what a pain in the ass Sir Goodlius was going to grow up to be.? Why didn't the evil gods have him strangled in their sleep as a child?

Because of the remoteness of divinity. Because free will. because time dilation on the divine plane. Because gods don't spend their time running around micro managing the mortal world. Because the gods are all against each other as well, and see other gods as much more dangerous...till it is too late.
Also, maybe there has never been an ur-Priest/Nietschzean like this before.Oh wait, world design is probably considered handwavium by you.

>>5134907
>>5134883
Probably samefag.

Anyway, ignoring the troll (who does appear to be learning and attempting to change gears - give some credit) it's clear that the gods are NOT omniscient. Nor are their mortal agents.

Quite frankly, it's also quite true that some of them are sadists. Some gods might not even bother to fight until the last moment because they want to deliver a brutal curbstomp at the last second - when it might be too late. Or they might not care if the wall is broken - they'd want Asmodeus freed.

Of course, even if they know, they, again, aren't all knowing - even if they are quite experienced. So these NPC's could well just wander around and do what they liked - mortals being opposed by mortals and all that. Insofar as that goes, it's quite likely.

Many universes have gods forming a pact not to directly interfere with the material plane, because doing so would invite an outright war of brute force and raw power. So they could just end up telling their clerics to kill this party, but not doing anything about it themselves. And if these NPC's are stronger than the hit squads, that becomes problematic.

>>5134779

Wow... the butthurt is strong with this one.

Seriously... this concept is completely and utterly fucking Wackdoodle stupid.

Let me give you an example.

Let's just say, for the sake of argument that they do somehow (LOL stupid gods!) survive and get to epic levels. The god's themselves would take pause at that moment.

See... that the thing... while you're a shit stain at low levels, you're right, they wouldn't notice you. But you survive all their nasty ass uber powerful hit squads. They're gonna be hearing about you in their followers prayers.

So instead of just zapping you personally, they turn any food that comes near you to rot or poison (they aren't using powers on you) they blight anyplace people let you stay killing all live stock, all crops, and rats or other vermin infest the food. Even fucking epic levels need to fucking eat. In no time you'd be persona non grata EVERYWHERE. Food you try to eat turns to ash. Water to liquid lye. Real wrath of god shit. All of it not used on you, but on what you need to live.

If you ever really got some power, they could just pull a Rapture, and take all their followers and animals and plants off the planet, and then blot out the sun for a decade or two, leaving you on a floating ball of frozen rock.

These are GODS, friend, they can fuck you up.

>>5134719
Well-thought.
I saw an argument similar to that started by Lich-Loved of Paizo, but commented by ever-so-dutiful members of The Gaming Den.
LL was shot down harshly as a fallacy, but then again they do wallow in their own 'logic' at the Den.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/feedback/alpha1/genera
l/theLichLovedArgument

>>5134971

This is the equivalant of "rocks fall, everybody dies. DM WINS." and you know it, you troll you.

>>5134971
Yes, but doing that for one damn person is gonna look a little silly.
"My lord, why are our crops rotting?"
BECAUSE SOME ASSHOLE WHO WANTS TO KILL ME IS COMING THROUGH YOUR TOWN AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE HE CAN'T EAT
"But my lord.... can you just smite him? My family needs to eat, an-"
FUCK YOU I'M PELOR.
"..."

>>5134971
The problem with that being that epic level characters can actually use spells that hide themselves from divine eyes. Moreover, they can *create* food and water and shelter if they need it.

To deal with your last point, epic level characters can simply leave the planet in the event of the rapture. There's other planes in the multiverse they could go to - including the astral plane, where sufficiently powerful epic mages can MAKE their own plane of existence.

It's quite plausible. I am aware some DM's make gods insurmountable, undefeatable creatures, however. If you are one of those, this thread isn't for you.

Ultimately, everything is up to the DM. Whether or not the antagonists are ultimately doomed is irrelevant. What matters is that they are good, memorable antagonists for the PC's to face and defeat.

>>5134971
You seem to have missed the part where this was a thread about taking out the D&D gods there, friend.

>>5135009

Not to mention a Ring of Sustenance or Mylunds Spoon makes the whole exercise nothing but a bad press move.

Hell, it'd be easier just to beef up and kit our YOUR champions.

>>5134971
>So instead of just zapping you personally, they turn any food that comes near you to rot or poison (they aren't using powers on you) they blight anyplace people let you stay killing all live stock, all crops, and rats or other vermin infest the food.


No good god would do this to its worshippers.


The Anti-Theist can just use this to rally even more support.
"He fears me! he blights YOUR crops and infests YOUR town to save himself from eventual destruction! He is selfish, and selfishness is an inherent evil!"

>>5135042
Actually, this makes it a perfect device to use. I'd LOVE it if a god did this - it would mean that the Ubermensch's party would create food for the townspeople - many of whom would accept, and then refuse to worship that god afterward. As tales of it spread, the PC's job gets all the harder - because the people themselves stand against them.

>>5135022
In 3.5, the gods were pretty much insurmountable. Unless you somehow reached like level 80 or used spell loopholes made entirely of delicious cheese.
In 4e, the powerful ones are level 35 Solos that you have to do something special to permanently kill. They set the precedent with Tiamat in the Draconomicon: Chromatic Dragons. Greater gods are level 35 Solos.

>>5134971
So you can't fight them directly, so what?

The whole point is that they ARE gods. you can't hope to win in direct combat. So you need to be sneaky. Sow sedition in the ranks of their followers, turn the gods against each other, misdirects their attention and conceal your true aims.

...what? you thought this would be easy? HELL NO, your taking on GODS. It's going to take a lot of creative thinking to pull this off.

>>5134989 Well thought

Thanks... I'll go read that thread, sounds interesting.
Seriously though... read some of the "logic" going on here.. That the gods aren't going to notice them even when they've gotten to epic levels, but they'd have survived the hit squads in the past enough to reach epic levels.

Serious break in logic there, huh bro?

I can understand the gods not getting involved/noticing at low levels, or even in heroic type levels. But Epic levels? Come the fuck on. You'd have had to kill dozens of hit squads. Basically you'd have tripped their early warning alarms at low levels, started sounding significant alarms at medium levels, and really started killing high profile squads at high levels.

The gods would be fully aware of them by then and what's going on when you're at epic levels, and they'd TAKE MEASURES.

Sure, maybe your character can resist their interference directly, but what about that cow the character wants to have milk from, or that field of grain that he needs to not be diseased so he can eat bread. Or that stream of water he wants a drink from.

What's the range of this supposedly class's power? It sure as fuck isn't going to be allowed to be big enough to cover a big enough area that the god's couldn't fatally fuck with them indirectly.

Gods don't have to smack you with a lightning bolt. They can be indirect mother fuckers. Natural plagues, swarms of insects, animals dying. Hell, maybe one shoves a 10 ton meteor to impact where you're sleeping that night. You might be able to survive divine magic, but a non magical meteor strike... not so much. They can hear a million priests praying for spells and get all their requests filled without blinking... I think they could handle a solid rain of shit on a pc without half a thought..

>>5135058

Only Gods have a high intelligence, even the 'stupid' bestial ones.

They'd never try such a dramatic move against something a low level spell or a 3000gp investment could make a mockery out of.

>>5135078
>Gods don't have to smack you with a lightning bolt. They can be indirect mother fuckers. Natural plagues, swarms of insects, animals dying. Hell, maybe one shoves a 10 ton meteor to impact where you're sleeping that night. You might be able to survive divine magic, but a non magical meteor strike... not so much. They can hear a million priests praying for spells and get all their requests filled without blinking... I think they could handle a solid rain of shit on a pc without half a thought..

Again, that's a move that only a nuetral/evil god would make, because the PCs are not the only ones affected.
Yes, killing your own worshippers will make perfect goddamn sense.

>>5135085
High stats does not make common sense.

>>5135071
But they can be killed. Particularly if they lose worshipers.

That's their Achilles heel, and the true threat the NPC's represent: They're charismatic and sympathetic Anti-Theists. In D&D, gods are powered by worship.

When they act to inspire the people, to show them that they can reach the level of the gods, to show them that the gods are their oppressors, then the people will begin to turn away from the gods.

When the people stop sending the gods prayers, they weaken.

They never even have to land a single blow. They just need to free the faithless, set up their own domain, and stop the worship of the gods by inspiring the people. The gods will die without a single blow having ever been thrown at them.

>>5135078
Because that would really endear a god who depends upon worship for power to its followers. Yessiree do.

>>5135078

I don't think Epic level characters give two shits about cows or fields.

>>The Anti-Theist can just use this to rally even more support."He fears me! he blights YOUR crops and infests YOUR town to save himself from eventual destruction! He is selfish, and selfishness is an inherent evil!"

And the beloved priest of the town... who has lived there all his life with those people, who knows EVERYONE by name, has treated their sicknesses year in and year out, has healed their wounds, has maybe even raised their children from the dead when they were unjustly struck down by a monster speaks out and says.
"No, this one is a liar and a carrier of pestilence and woe. He rejects and profanes the gods and as warnings to stay clear of his evil, a blight has been ordained to fall upon all who give him shelter, all who give him aid. Let us instead drive him out with stones. Stone the heretic!"

In short order... PC is dead or driven away from a barrage of thrown rocks from the villagers. Whereupon a blessing falls upon the town, crops grow X2, Livestock is healthy and fecund, rains are mild but plentiful, and Farmer Grunslick finds a bag of gold in his field where the heretic got hit by a particularly nasty stone.

>>5135109 Duhhh... my epic character doesn't eat.

Yeah... right.

>>5135123
>My epic level character is incapable of producing food out of nothing, using a magical item of sustenance or becoming something that doesn't need food derp

>>5135078
I think it would be best that each one became epic before they turned against the gods; that they were great and powerful heroes before they became would-be godslayers.

Each one has a ready made story for it. The Ubermensch is clearly a former level 20+ cleric. Somewhere, he was failed.

The Psion was already an incredibly powerful person when an act of divine wrath (like the aforementioned meteor strike) set him off.

The swordsman is basically Guts - an epic level swordsman before his best friend turned on him, sacrificed hundreds of people and became a demon god.

The Mage isn't even directly against the gods, and simply believes they keep mankind down. There's no reason for them to have tripped any alarms; they could have gained levels like anyone else.

So basically, this is a new compact between powerful people that the gods have dicked over - people who are more than willing to be dicks back.

Generally I have the Gods go, "Whatever Roy." if a player insists on this. They're the gods, they're busy guys, they have shit to do besides pay you the attention mommy and daddy didn't.

I do kinda dig the idea of a bad guy party waging war on heaven, though.

>>5135042 No good god would do this to its worshippers.

Oh wow, you're not that familiar with religion, are you?

Read the bible sometime. God does way more fucked-up shit every couple pages.

>>5135096
Yes, it is easier to defeat a tank by destroying all gasoline containers for miles around than trying to beat it to pieces if all you have is a crowbar.
But that's not killing the tank. That tank can get going again if someone comes by later with a gas can after you've gone on with your life. Once you've stop the gods from affecting the world with divine power, you still have to kill their asses or else they'll be back in business later. There's plenty of precedent in D&D for gods who died from lack of worship returning to life from the efforts of cults.

...what book is the Defiant in?

The biblical god is not "good" by the D&D definition of the term.

>>5135117
NPC's, not PC's, dumbass. AGAIN, these are the *bad guys*. The players are trying to kill them.

>>5135141
Glad you like it. If you feel like adding to it, I'd appreciate it.

>>5135117
>Epic-level
>bothered by tossed rocks in the slightest.

He can just stand there and take it, you know.
"You can assail me with stones and curses. But remember: Your god cannot smite me! In his fear, in his panic, he only sets his might on those he has power over. He destroys you, he makes you poor, he turns you against me so he can continue to manipulate and abuse you."
And then he crosses his arms, sits down, and sees how long it takes them to ewven touch him through epic-level AC and HP.

The Gods don't nottice them because a lesser god is helping/hiding them from view, because the lesser god thinks the groups' success will leave him with more power in the end.

>>5135094

As much as i'd agree with you I just can't see anyone but the God of Retards seeing a character who doesn't need to eat and only sleeps 4 hours a day in their own private magical haven (espeically since anyone in the world over level 12 could do this readily) and thinking 'time for a war of resource attrition and massive collateral damage'! Especially since Knowledge (Arcana) and a decent Int is practically a given, so 'cantrips and rings exist' wouldn't be too hard to figure out even while pissed off.

>>5135117
Yeah, I'm sure the priest of Ye Olde Bumfuck has a few handfuls of DIAMONDS sitting around in order to bring back some stupid anklebiter that wandered alone into the forest that every gets told not to go into. I'm sure the feudal peasants are destroyed over the loss of that kid and not the seven others they'd undoubtedly have, ESPECIALLY if they're farming families. Totally likely.
And there's no way that some of those people are more indecisive, neutral, or rightfully hurt by the issue. People turn against God in the Bible for far less, and at far greater a scale.

>>5135151
The Planar Handbook. I posted the relevant pages in the other thread. See:

>>5133258
>>5133265
>>5133272

I also pasted the pages for the Ur-Priest, which is from the Book of Vile Darkness.
>>5133286
>>5133289

>>5135147
so get rid of the worshipers, then deal the finishing blow. Gods can be killed. in d&d.

Bonus points for usurping their worshipers, which would only prove your point

>>5135117

Please.

>Oh no, I'm attacked by commoners at this level! It means nothing, I must flee to eat fields of cows!

>>5135173
They updated it for 3.5 in Complete Divine.

>>5135175
They CAN be killed, but they're each around level 60-80 and have ridiculous abilities like choosing what they roll on a d20 at will as an immediate action.

>>5135198
Yes, but what happens when they're already catatonic and unaware because they've lost all their worshipers?

Also, I like this namefag; he's giving us wonderful ideas for how we can make the gods act like total dicks, and thereby make the Ubermensch's party look good and sympathetic.

>>5135198
their ridiculous abilities stem from their divine rank, which is directly related to the number of worshipers. Take down enough, and you've only got a level 60-80 character to deal with. Which sounds difficult, but when you're a divine caster that steals abilities from other divine casters, specifically one like this fallen god, its not that outragous.

>>5135207
They're not dead until they've lost their last worshiper, and that's gonna take a lot of killing the zealots, which will put off the people you converted by talking, who you will then have to kill. Look at how many times in our history that people have tried to wipe out religions. Even Wicca is still around, for Christ's sake. There's a few people who still worship Zeus, Ra, Voodoo gods, etc. It's very, very tough to completely wipe out a religion to the point that the god will be anywhere near helpless.

>>5135179
says the person who thinks they can take on the DnD gods at merely epic level.

The difference in power between a level 1 commoner and a level 40 epic character is less than that character and the least of the gods.

Good luck and Godspeed!

>>5135239
That's a lot of followers. If one of them gets lucky, you're dead.

Also, that's assuming that you're more powerful than all of the followers, which is a hugeass assumption that will come back and bite you in the back of the ass.

>>5135245
>Even Wicca is around for Christ's sake.
12/10
Wicca is a new religion.
Wicca is a pile of shit propagated by the "edgy".
Wicca is not a real faith.

saging.

OP is either a epic level troll or epic level idiot.

One member of the group is unknowingly a reincarnated god

>>5135266
You don't need to kill them all. Hell, that's the hard way.

Just get on a soapbox and make a crazy diplomacy check to convince them otherwise.

>>5135245

You are a giant moron.

>>5135268
thank you for saying it so i didn't have to.

>>5135275
Bumping this again just because I hate you personally.

>>5135282
You're now grasping at straws. What happens one if only one Zealot comes up and attacks you?

Do you:

1 Kill him, undermining your diplomacy and turning them all against you defeating your persuasion.

2 Let him kill you, showing yourself as a martyr to your cause. But also dead.

>>5135256
Again, SOME DM'S prefer that the gods cannot be defeated. OTHERS DO NOT.

This is NOT the thread for the first type of DM. Make your own thread that's all about gods curbstomping mortals, if that floats your boat. This is about a compelling group of antagonists you can use in a campaign.

>>5135319
Liking that false dichotomy there, brosef. Keep trying and one day you, too, may be considered an honest-to-goodness troll.

Turns out that the Gods were bored and decided to make this group and sent them around questing just for fun.

>>5135322
Some DMs suck.

This whole premise is a piece of shit. Just give it up.

>>5135198
>>5135239
I'm not any of the people you've been arguing with, but I feel like chiming in:

THE ENTIRE CONCEPT IN THIS THREAD IS THAT THESE GUYS ARE THE VILLAINS

There. They're not meant to win. They're for the PC's to defeat, or whatever.

>>5135090Again, that's a move that only a nuetral/evil god would make, because the PCs are not the only ones affected.

No, it's not neutral evil, because the god could simply make new crops grow overnight, refill larders overnight, or just make sure it's only the food that gets sent to your character that's affected. He's changing the food, not you, thus your immunity... not gonna work.

They wouldn't be killing or even hurting their worshipers, they'd simply be denying the PC's any shelter or food. As for dealing with their food producing magic items. A field of antimagic that just hovers right on them constantly might happen along. I could see a goddess like Hecate pulling shit like that on a whim.

As for your creating food for people to drive a wedge... Anyone that eats what you give them gets sick, your immunity isn't gonna shelter them. Who do you think they're going to believe, the man that gave them food that made them sick, and whose presence causes their crops to fail and their animals to get sick, or their priests and gods who love them and watch over them, and who will replace all they've lost twice over as soon as they drive you out?

That meal you ordered, the beer just turned to ox urine on the way over, and the steak... it's now a block of pine tar. Everyone else, they're eating food and it's fine. You try and steal their food, it turns to ash. Just saying, the gods got all sorts of tricks they can use. They don't have to hurt everyone else, in fact they can just make sure and reward everyone that does turn on you.

It's like the Catholic Excommunication. The thing with excommunication is that noone of that faith is allowed to give you shleter, or food, or let you stay in their area. You're cursed. That's what being a anti theist character would be like in a world with gods.

>>5135319
2, obviously. The Ur-priest is good at resurrecting.

>>5135343
No one cares, get the fuck out of our trollfest.

This thread is now about Kuso Miso Technique

>>5135319
Use your innate spell resistance as a Defiant to defeat his divine power, showing your immunity to his gods abilities.

Then you deck him, and knock him out doing subdual.

Your power is undeniable. A proper example can turn back armies.

And remember - the characters aren't good people. They WILL kill the followers of the gods if they have to - albeit, primarily out of self defense. That's not a bad thing; it's a sign of their strength to stand against the zealots that oppress the people.

They're strong. They're displaying that strength as an example of what the common man can become.

>>5135319

You must be one of those dicks that makes a paladin lose his powers because he stumbled in the stairs. How about "lol you can't get through my AC, I use nonlethal damage and bind him up"? Oh no.

I bet you'd add some other mastermind.jpg-situations like that, only to have them fail/backfire on you. Dick.

>>5135278
I don't think Vin could play Kamina, just not animated enough, even in some candids I've seen.

Might pull off Lord Genome though. They'd have to do camera tricks though, Vin's a bit small.

>>5135319
>3. Disarm and knock him unconsious, leaving him out of your way.

Yours is the drill that will pierce the heavens.

>>5135406
Mine?

Oh no he cast Eternal Blindness on me!

It's okay, I've got a Cure Darkness potion.

Sigh. Spam. If only there were actually mods on /tg/.

Natural 20! You turned the BBEG into a baby!

Nice work team!

>>5135438
JAWSOME!

Looks like we have another case of...

Lets head back to town to sell our loot.

All the conversational attempts at destroying the thread having failed, the troll resorts to the most basic of tactics: pretend this is /b/, and simply spam off-topic pictures...

I'm way ahead of you.

>>5135343 This is the Bad guy

Hey, I gotcha, I understand. The thing is, the best villians are the believable ones.

This anti theist... okay I gotcha on the concept. I'm simply pointing out the flaws in him being a public character.

This guy is gonna need to be totally secret. Noone should know what this guy is.

If you advertise his powers in any way or make him confrontational with the gods, then his believablity would be hugely undermined.

If I might suggest. Make him a legenday thief. That seems to me to be what I'd do if I was invisible to the gods. I'd be plundering temples and the like.

The moment the gods caught wind of this character's existence, they'd be all over his shit.

Think of it like... Tomb of Horrors. Part of the real challenge there is that you anticipate some big fight with a lich. Only it's not a lich.... it's a demi lich, something that bears almost no resemblance to what you actually end up facing.

This ubermench villian. It's a great idea, really, but it's gotta stand up to being poked if you wanna make it fly.

I'm just poking it with the obvious stick. This guy can't let anyone know what he really is, because if he does... he's fucked. So he's gotta be tricky, hit from the shadows, not let anyone actually see what he can do.

that way when the pc's run into him full on, he's gotta kill them all or he knows his secret will be out and maybe the gods will find out and come after him personally.

So the hit squad thing... he'd avoid killing them or using his powers to fight them off unless he can guarendamnty a complete squad kill.

He'd set up traps and ambushes that hide his true nature.

>>5135466

>>5135466
Nice troll attempt there, but your efforts to derail this Vin Diesel thread will not succeed!

>>5135487
The point is that he - and his entire party - are already epic level characters.

He doesn't have to hide in the shadows now. He has done so for years. This is the point where they stop hiding and start with the public campaign.

I'm not looking for Lupin III Kamina, I'm looking for "Demon Leader" Kamina, crossed with Lex Luthor, and backed up by a team of incredibly powerful badasses.

Even if they can't kill the gods themselves in direct combat, they should at least be able to defeat their avatars in single combat. That's how powerful they should be. Powerful enough to be publicly against the gods and survive.

That's the whole point. The gods are threatened, with good reason. They want to do something they see as good, that will actually destroy everything.

Does this mean the gods will be less powerful than you might like? Sure. It doesn't matter. The DM always has the final say on everything - and if they decide the gods can be defeated, then they can be defeated.

Vin Diesel in all his forms!

Druid Diesel!

>>5135529
So how are these tied to the universe?

Actually, do you know what will make this concept awesome?

He's wrong. They aren't pretenders. When he undoes them, the universe falls apart, and he has to either let it die or step up and take their place; the irony (as with all good story telling) is he becomes what he hates the most.

That would make an awesome ending.

>>5135487
I thought it had been cleared up/explained that this anti-theist party only became anti-theist after they reached epic levels, as per >>5135135

This would mean that the gods are only just now reacting, and the PCs are their hit squad.

Or are you seeing any obvious problems with this?

Vin Rogue!

Vin Diesel the Fighter!

Fire Mage Diesel!

The Bard composing a new piece!

The concept is cool i guess, if you want to be ignorant about the powerscale of gods vs mortals.

I have to agree with the idea that around epic level, said godslayers would become the focus of at least a few gods. Maybe not even the sole focus, but they would draw attention. And despite all the "LOL THEY EPIC THEY SO POWAHFUL" going on, lets not pretend that gods wouldn't be at least a couple steps up the food chain still.

Eventually, if they pissed off enough gods, you'd have gods working together to do crazy shit to them. And people keep going "Good gods wouldn't do shit that harms their followers." So? What if all the evil gods band together for at least one act of attrition, and do something really horrific to these godslayers? What if they just use subversive magic to completely and utterly convince every other person on the planet that these guys are -going- to fuck up the entire world (Which they are likely to do if they run around fucking with gods) ? Now they've got armies after them, gods after them, divine hit-squads after them, etc. If they're epic enough to survive that, then THEY ARE gods.

I hate that it's coming down to "well, some DMs don't do the 'rocks fall' idea with gods, they just don't have to work like that."

Ok, if the gods aren't omniscient/omnipotent, then,

1.) What seperates them from a high epic level magic user?
2.) Why do these characters (who are cunt-hair's distance from becoming demigods,) give such a shit about gods that aren't going to directly intervene?
3.) Why would such powerful characters work together unless they had COMPLETE trust in each other? IE what stops one of these jackasses from killing a god and subsuming their domain for power?

It's just a wankery idea that starts off cool, but you really need to dick up the setting and make gods not worth fighting, to have these guys be worth using. And it's not very satisfying.

>>5135667
This guy's on the right trail.

>>5135667
>1.) What seperates them from a high epic level magic user?
NOTHING, THAT'S THE POINT.
>2.) Why do these characters (who are cunt-hair's distance from becoming demigods,) give such a shit about gods that aren't going to directly intervene?
SHEER PRINCIPAL.
>3.) Why would such powerful characters work together unless they had COMPLETE trust in each other?
FOR THE SAME REASONS PEOPLE WORK TOGETHER IN ANY SHARED GOAL

I FEEL MYSELF GETTING STUPIDER AS THIS THREAD GOES ON.

ALSO, CRUISE CONTROL.

>>5135748 SHEER PRINCIPAL.

>>5133786
>>5133836
I find it amusing how religious people react like this. Your fucking fault for brainwashing children.

>>5135820
Nice troll.

Real classy...

>>5135820
Religious? Brainwashing? No no no, you misconstrue; society brainwashes our children, we merely fix them. Enjoy your sagging pants, shitty pop music and vacuum of work ethic.

>>5135806
WELL SHIT I AM RETARDED. GOOD LAUGH THOUGH.

>>5135863
...

YEAH!

sagefags in this thread are the same aspies that cross their arms and huff in offense over their grossly bloated necks at the ridiculousness of Lex Luthor ever standing up to Superman or Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star.

The arguments of the trolls are that the gods must be "smart" where smart is defined as "aspie munchkin faggots who freak out when so much as an ant steps to their uberbuild".

Maybe the gods really don't give a flying fuck. Maybe Tharizdun or some other under-the-radar god has a hand in it. Maybe they just don't know what the Wall the villains are trying to tear down really does. Maybe the OP has an imagination and not an autistic devotion to "lol logical fallacies".

Or, and this is the big one, maybe you don't have the slightest clue what the OP's group is like. Maybe they would genuinely enjoy facing villains with this theme and don't give two shits about the overarching logic of a FANTASY world.

>>5136153
Cool story bro.

>>5136153
>>5136171

>>5136182
>>5136171

Keep saging. Prove my point why don't you?

>>5136207

>logic in fantasy world

This thread

>>5136153

>>5136261

>trollan games

this thread

this is why we can't have good things

>>5136416
Nice. NICE things.

>>5135245

>Wicca

>>5135153

Congratulations, you now know where St. Cuthbert (and Phieran, i.e. Jesus) came from.

What book is the Athar Defiant from? I cannot find a source.

>>5133828
Didn't Dragonlance do this?

>>5136758
Planar Handbook if memory serves

>My character doesn't worship any particular god so I'm gonna call myself a "godkiller"

Hey DM I have a great concept for a new character. He's basically an Omnipotent Powerlord. I'm basing him on my favorite shoto doujin manga monogatari kawaii oniisama. Pretty cool huh?

>>5137437
I love how you assume 'WEEABOO FAGGOT' because of the picturepost, then immediatly move on to make oneself look like an idiot without reading the thread.

>antagonist character
>ANTAGONIST
>YOU KNOW, THE DUDE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO FUCKING FIGHT?