I'd rather discuss pic relatedness, for indeed...

The Emprah

Vypers > Wraithlord > War Walkers
Wraithguard > Fire Dragons

Here's my 'ard Boyz list.

--HQ--

Cato Sicarius - 200pts.
^ Command Squad ( Plasma Gun x 4 ) - 175pts.
^ Razorback ( EA, TLHB, HK Missile ) - 65pts.

Epistolary ( Terminator Armour, Thunder Shield, Gate of Infinity, Null Zone ) - 190pts.


--Troops--

10 Tactical Marines ( Power Fist, Meltagun, Multi-Melta ) - 200pts.

10 Tactical Marines ( Power Fist, Meltagun, Multi-Melta ) - 200pts.

10 Tactical Marines ( Power Fist, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon ) - 210pts.
^ Rhino - 35pts.

10 Tactical Marines ( Power Fist, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon ) - 210pts.
^ Rhino - 35pts.

--Elites--

Dreadnought ( MM, DCCW, HF ) - 115pts.
^ Drop Pod - 35pts.

Dreadnought ( MM, DCCW, HF ) - 115pts.
^ Drop Pod - 35pts.

Venerable Dreadnought ( DCCW, HF, PC, EA ) - 200pts.
^ Drop Pod - 35pts.

--Fast Attack--

Attack Bike ( Multi-Melta ) - 50pts.

Attack Bike ( Multi-Melta ) - 50pts.

--Heavy Support--

Vindicator - 115pts.

Vindicator - 115pts.

Vindicator - 115pts.

>>5050716
>Vypers > Wraithlord > War Walkers
>Vypers > something

>>5050901
Attack bikes for your multi-meltas? Seriously? Why not spend the extra ten points to make them land speeders?

Put the Warlocks on Jetbikes.
Take ten man squads of Dire Avengers. Even in serpents, these guys die way to quick to mass bolter fire.
Give the guardians something better than a Shuricannon, and give them a Warlock with enhance or conceal, or they aren't going to hit anything or wind up shot/assaulted.

Everything else is OK, I guess.

Oh and since we're posting 2500 point lists:

Chaos Lord, Termie armor, Daemon Weapon

Chosen x 10 LC, Melta, PF, Plasma

Termie x 4 AC w/ LC, PF, Reaper cannon

CSM x 10 AC w PS, Plas/Las Rhino
CSM x10 AC w PF, Melta/ML Rhino
CSM x 10 AC w PP, Meltabombs, HB, Flamer, Rhino
CSM x 10 AC w PF Melta/HB, Rhino

Raptors x 10, AC w LC, PP, Flamer

Land Raider

Obliterators x 3

Defiler

shas'o, fusion blaster, twin flamer. shas'vre, twin fusion blaster, flamer
shas'el, twin fusion blaster, flamer. shas'vre, twin fusion blaster, flamer

XV8 shas'vre, twin fusion blaster, flamer. shas'ui, twin fusion blaster, flamer
XV8 shas'vre, twin fusion blaster, flamer. shas'ui, twin fusion blaster, flamer
stealth team leader, markerlight, ta. fusion blaster, ta. tl.

5 fw with carbines, fish with 1 skm, dp
5 fw with carbines, fish with 1 skm, dp
5 fw with carbines, fish with 1 skm, dp
10 fw, 1 as shas'ui with 2 marker drones, bk
10 fw, 1 as shas'ui with 2 marker drones, bk

5 pathfinders, 1 as shas'ui with bk, 2 rail rifles. fish with dp, smm, fd, 1 skm
5 pathfinders, 1 as shas'ui with bk, 2 rail rifles. fish with dp, smm, fd, 1 skm

railhead with smart missiles, dp, tl, mt, 2 smm
broadside team leader with ta, 2 marker drones. broadside with ta
broadside team leader with ta, 2 marker drones. broadside with ta

>>5051479
If DAs come under mass bolter fire, they die regardless of whether there are 6 or 10 of them. It's better to have more smaller squads.

>>5051462

Uh, because Land Speeders are easier to kill compared to overboosting Marines on bikes. T5 3+ Cover\Armour save. Compared to something that goes up in flames under mass Bolter fire without even a save... yeah.

>>5051932
100 bolter hits on T5, 3+ save: 33 wounds, 11 unsaved
100 bolter hits on AV10: 16 glancing hits, 8 if flat out

Not sure whether I'm going to have enough money to get the last 750pts of oh so expensive metal models done in time, but hopefully I'll be playing:

Canoness with jump pack, plasma pistol and blessed weapon
Palatine with jump pack, plasma pistol and power weapon

10 celestians, 2 melta guns, 1 as veteran superior with power weapon and plasma pistol, rhino

10 battle sisters, 2 melta guns, 1 as veteran sister superior, rhino
10 battle sisters, 2 melta guns, 1 as veteran sister superior, rhino
10 battle sisters, 2 melta guns, 1 as veteran sister superior, rhino
10 battle sisters, 2 melta guns, 1 as veteran sister superior, rhino
10 battle sisters, 2 melta guns, 1 as veteran sister superior, rhino
10 battle sisters, 2 melta guns, 1 as veteran sister superior, rhino

5 seraphim, 2 hand flamers, 1 as veteran sister superior with melta bombs, power weapon
5 seraphim, 2 hand flamers, 1 as veteran sister superior with melta bombs, power weapon
5 dominions, 4 melta guns, immolator

5 retributors, 4 heavy bolters, immolator
exorcist
exorcist

If not, there's always the tried and trusted six battlewagon Ork list, which actually stands a chance at winning something...

>>5051932
Land speeders can jump over things like water, walls, difficult terrain and enemy tanks.

>>5050678
Why so many Bright Lances? There are orks, nor space marines. Switch out for missile launchers. Plus, orks come in huge mobs, get a Fire Prism with a crystal targeting matrix.

>>5053353
Because it's ard boyz. Typical armies will include five battlewagons or two land raiders. Also, the CTM no longer exists.

>>5052603
you...could use some improvement.
1-lose the palatine
2-WHY WOULD YOU TAKE A PALATINE I DON'T EVEN
3-ditch retributors and pick up another exorcist
4-EVERY vss should have a book of st lucius
5-needs more heavy flamer
6-ditch the power weapons on the seraphim squads, they should never assault
7-grab an inquisitor lord with 3crusaders, 2acolytes w/power armor and mancatcher, and 1-2 chirurgeons for dealing with characters or monstrous creatures
8-grab a dakkaquisitor for more dakka
9-pray to emprah nobody has tanks
10-pray to emprah even more you aren't fighting something choppier than IG, you'll get your shit pushed in

>>5053886
and repressors. why would you ever take rhinos with repressors available?

>>5053945
Assuming your opponent lets you play with them. What're they... I think it was a 65pt Rhino with firing points, heavy flamer up top, and a dozer blade in front?

Do well to follow points 1 through 6 in >>5053886

Inquisitors are really optional. I haven't found a use for them that for the same points, a set of Sisters couldn't do.

Oh, and Exorcists? Pray to the fucking Emperor. I mean, pray harder than the fucking Ecclesiarch and the whole population of the Imperium. You /do/ want 18 "melta" missiles to go wreck shit in one turn, right?

>>5054014
I forgot to add:
Litanies of Faith
Cloak of St. Aspira
Mantle of Ophelia

I DON'T SEE ANY OF THOSE IN YOUR LIST

Odd tourney list, works better at higher point counts...

Max Immolators. Like 15 of them. Fucking shit up. Some with TLMMs, some with TLHF.

>>5053945
Forge World is banned in 'Ard Boyz.

>>5054040
very true anon. i decided to address some of the most glaring concerns, as opposed to the finer points of sister's strategy. but you are quite correct.

>>5054040
There is absolutely no fucking point to any of those.

>>5054109
Enjoy your krak missile to the face then.

>>5054156
*shrug* missiles and dicks look a lot alike, he'll be ok

>>5054156
If someone cares enough to target a special character who is in a squad with enough instant death weaponry to allocate wounds to the entire squad, a couple of piddly and extremely expensive bits of wargear aren't going to help.

>>5054258
But you don't put your characters in a squad. That way you get to abuse all those funny faith things on a leadership test rather than a squad size test.

>>5050678
Forget the EML. It's crap. Star cannons are twice as killy.

>>5054258
1) Jump pack canoness don't join squads. Seraphim would lose H&R, and well, foot squads don't need a jump pack canoness. Enjoy your krak missile.
2) /Everything/ is instant death to Sisters. Everything that matters, anyways.

>>5054312
Huh? The only awesome leadership checks are the ones involving my BoSLs.

>>5053353
Bright lances are the best option if you're likely to be up against a lot of AV14, which you probably are in ard boyz. Otherwise pulse lasers are the way to go.

OP your groups are tiny! None of those will be able to do much alone. Upgrade to 20 dire avengers (2 groups of 10) with a bladestorm exarch w/ two shuriken cannons. Never fails.

Fortune and Doom are the two best powers, hands down. Eldritch storm is interesting but ultimately fortune will save your bacon much much more.

6 fire dragons is good if you are going to put them in a falcon or something. I would also suggest you consider the firepike instead of the flamer. Tankhunters and crack shot are both nice (crack shot moreso against skimmers) but not necessary.

Guardian Jetbikes are useful under groups of 6. Keep in mind your farseer can only group with one of these groups, might as well have a group of 9 with 3 shuriken cannons + the farseer for an even 10.

I would suggest you change your fire dragons tank to a falcon, keep the two wave serpents with brightlances or scatter lasers and shuriken cannons and ditch the third wave serpent, consolidating your avengers into 2 groups of 10.

Warp spiders are crap against anything but light vehicle squads, but your millage may vary.

Ditch the guardians maybe.

The warwalkers are good heavy support items but you already have a hell of a lot of firepower. Keep some anti infantry stuff around: maybe instead have a wraithlord with 2 flamers, and twinlinked scatter lasers.

>>5054757
Did I seriously just see someone advocate taking Falcons over Wave Serpents? Sir, please detail what exactly it is that you are smoking.

Falcons take up a HS choice. Wave serpents do not.

Falcons carry 6. Wave serpents carry 12.

Falcons are fragile. Wave serpents negate meltas and ordnance and reduce every weapon to at best S8.

Falcons have a pulse laser (which isn't a lance weapon) and another weapon. Wave serpents have a twin linked lance weapon.

Falcons cost more.

In conclusion, you're a jackass.

>>5054820
Mmm. Looking at that... Why the fuck would anyone ever take a falcon?

>>5055153
So you can transport harlequins, rangers and support batteries, obviously.

>>5050678

Sicarius and 4 plasma? Have you smoked something you shouldnt have? He is a combat monster give them storm shields or power weapons. Second. 3 vindicators. A waste of points. What do you actualy hope to achieve? The venrable dreadnoght was a good choice but given your points limit. Why not drop the 1 vindicator the razor back and a dreadnought and pod and get a landraider crusader instead. Its a far better way of delivering sicarius to combat were he is at his best. The tac set ups are terable. NEVER. Dual plas or duel melta. If you ever have to play with out the combat squading youll suffer horrificly as sicarius only has the ability to bump one of the short range units to infiltrate. Whats the second melta unit going to do while it trys to get to efective combat range?

Please re think a few of your choices, it has the potential to be a solid list how ever there are a few minor flaws that will cost you in the long run when sertain senarios are played and you come up against certain army types. You realy do need to remember that marines are good at every thing but exel at nothing.

Cheers for your time.

X

>>5052603
>Canoness with jump pack, plasma pistol and blessed weapon
Forgot frags, PP is waste of points, add VSS and possibly the Cloak for 2+ save and/or Litanies for the free Faith test.
>Palatine with jump pack, plasma pistol and power weapon
Turn to canoness, see above regarding pistol, give eviscerator and have her eat a tank. Maybe frags if she might actually survive a tank.

>10 celestians, 2 melta guns, 1 as veteran superior with power weapon and plasma pistol, rhino
S3 power weapons = lolno. Drop pistol again, give eviscerator and Book of St. Lucius. Smokes + Armor on Rhino.

>10 battle sisters, 2 melta guns, 1 as veteran sister superior, rhino
Book of St. Lucius on all VSS
Turn 1-2 of those into a flamer+heavy flamer squad. Smokes + Armor on Rhino.

>>5055293
>5 seraphim, 2 hand flamers, 1 as veteran sister superior with melta bombs, power weapon
Drop meltabombs and power weapons for eviscerator and BoSL, add 2-3 more seraphim per squad.

>5 dominions, 4 melta guns, immolator
Honestly you don’t need more meltaguns, you’ve got 10 in your SoB+Celestians already (14 if you ignore my suggestion about F+HF squads) and meltaguns are overpriced for dominions. Instead, flamer, add VSS with Brazier of Holy Fire and BoSL, and Armor+Smoke for Immolator.

>5 retributors, 4 heavy bolters, immolator
Heavy weapons squad in transport does not compute. Bump to 8-10 for divine guidance purposes, drop the Immolator. Possibly VSS with BoSL although this squad doesn’t need it as much. Alternatively drop for 3rd Exorcist although you’ve focused this list on tank-killing so this will help in the anti-infantry department.

SM and CSM can get away with running barebones rhinos because they’re so fucking cheap and come with smokes. To give them extra armor is also exorbitant, nearly 50% of the vehicle cost (15 pts on a 35 pt rhino). SoB are still overpaying for the Rhino, so paying an extra 16% for the added survivability of Smokes+Extra Armor should be a no-brainer.

>>5055316
What's your obsession with BoSL? There aren't any allies or guard in the army, so leadership's not a problem.

>>5055293
Don't knock S3 power weapons, especially since they can be S5 power weapons whenever necessary. They may suck against marines, but it's a lot better than not having them. And against tau and eldar, they're extremely useful.

In this thread: people saying "take falcons, not wave serpents!", "spend lots of points on rhino upgrades", "don't stick seraphim in close combat" and "book of st lucius is great in an army full of Ld9 squads!".

It's almost like you're trying to derail the competition.

Next up: advising ork players not to bother with any power klaws!

>>5055316
Well, if you use the Imperial Armour rules, the Sisters' Rhinos are thirty-five points.

>>5055538
Unfortunately, using Imperial Armour is cheating. Which is a shame, because multi-melta razorbacks rule.

Uh, guys? BoSL gives you /unmodified/ Morale/Pinning tests for any unit within 6" of a unit bearing a BoSL. That's unmodified Ld9/Ld10 checks.

>>5055583
No. It means you use the bearer's unmodified leadership (as in, not enhanced by being near seraphim, and not penalised for being around those nasty necron thingies) instead of your own, and then modify it as normal for your situation. You still have to deduct points for markerlights and close combat losses.

>>5055583
Unmodified as in "before modifications". For most of your units it won't do a damn thing (since they already have a Ld9 leader).

Did it not occur to you that 5 pts seems low for an item that removes leadership modifiers?

>>5055610
;____;

B-but...

In conclusion, either lots of retards can't read the rules for BoSL, or there's only one other person posting in this thread who keeps agreeing with himself on his own fucked up advice.

>>5055758
There's only one other person who can afford an all-metal sisters army, and he wants it to not suck due to codex creep so badly that he reads the rules to say what he wants them to say.

>>5055515

>spend lots of points on rhino upgrades

This only works for Chaos. Daemonic possession, Havoc launcher. Anything that helps get into close combat quicker is worth it.

The rest I agree with.

>>5055758
Actually I was going to recommend the BoSL only for Canoness and Seraphim but I somehow added it to all my changes.

I still stand by smokes + armor on WH rhinos though. Grabbing extra armor on 2 SM/CSM rhinos is almost enough to get you a 3rd rhino. Grabbing armor on 2 WH rhinos is only 10% of the cost of a rhino.

Is enemy armor at 'ard Boyz such a concern that half these lists need be made around tank killing?

>>5056590
At 2500 points, you'll likely encounter two or three land raiders, five battlewagons, three monoliths, three valkyries or a half dozen lemon russes. What you won't encounter is 2500 points worth of cheap horde troops, since it's hard to get those six troops choices to come to more than 1500 points or so...

Every army that's done well previously has been heavily mechanized, mostly because there are a lot of widely spaced out objectives and you need to do more than just grab victory by a small margin to get through. Winning by one objective or kill point isn't enough. So yes, you need to be able to take out transport spam and AV14 spam very quickly to be in with a chance.

>>5056736
>What you won't encounter is 2500 points worth of cheap horde troops
Aww. That would be a dream come true, just to see piles of infantry flooding everywhere like rats in a sewer.

>>5056792
It doesn't work. There's not room on the board, for one, and even with loads of reserves (which stop you from getting all the way to those objectives that are nowhere near you) even ork-fired pie plates will hit large numbers of somethings. And if you survive the templates, you're probably playing someone who has ten things capable of tank shock.

>>5055758
Actually, all the redshirts I've ever met agree: it makes the unit stubborn by modern wording.

>>5055664

This is what happens when you don't update a codex for two editions. Testing off of unmodified leadership simply wasn't worth as many points when Codex: Witch Hunters came out because leadership worked differently.

The wording is clear. You use the bearers unmodified leadership for all relevant checks. BoSL is the best piece of wargear in 5e because of edition incompatibility.

Since we're posting lists, I'll post up the list I had in mind with my witch hunters but will not be able to get the models beforehand. Also, I really don't wanna shell out that kinda money

Canoness w/ Blessed Weapon, Cloak of St. Aspira, Jump Pack, Inferno Pistol, BoLS, Frags - 136
Canoness w/ Eviscerator, Cloak of St. Aspira, Jump Pack, Inferno Pistol, Mantle of Ophelia - 140. Combined these two bitches to form a squad size of 2 and be able to insta-pass the faith power to get an invulnerable save equal to armor save. Watch opponent cry over 2+ invulns all the goddamn time.

VSS w/ Brazier of Holy Fire
x9 Sisters: 7 bolters, 1 heavy flamer, 1 Meltagun
Rhino w/ EA, Smoke - 214

VSS w/ Brazier of Holy Fire
x9 Sisters: 7 bolters, 1 heavy flamer, 1 Meltagun
Rhino w/ EA, Smoke - 214

VSS w/ Combi-Melta
x9 Sisters: 7 Bolters, 2 Meltaguns
Rhino w/ EA, Smoke - 212

VSS w/ Combi-Melta
x9 Sisters: 7 Bolters, 2 Meltaguns
Rhino w/ EA, Smoke - 212

VSS w/ Brazier of Holy Fire
x9 Sisters: 7 Bolters, Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Imagifer
Rhino w/ EA, Smoke - 230

VSS w/ Storm Bolter
x15 Sisters: 15 Bolters, 2 Storm Bolters - 210

x5 Celestians: 4 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta - 80
x5 Celestians: 4 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta
Immolator w/ Twinlinked Multi-Melta, Smoke, EA - 173

Exorcist w/ Searchlights - 136
Exorcist w/ Searchlights - 136
VSS w/ Storm Bolter
x4 Retributors w/ Heavy Bolters
x3 Retributors - 172

VSS w/ Eviscerator, Brazier of Holy Fire
x5 Seraphim
x2 Seraphim w/ Hand Flamers - 235

Fuck loads of sisters on the field, lots of guns everywhere and lots of faith points.

Damn space elves I hope you eat a ork slugga shell.... now that the hate storm has passed your force has to many bright lances for facing orks, even if they where speed freaks. a good unit would be warp spiders or even any cheap spammy daka unit. I see what your doing with the fire dragons, but typically you want to stay far away while shooting orks. Still with the wave serpents they should do fine.

>>5058211
Not really. Bear in mind it takes five bright lances to stop a single battlewagon.

>>5057782
The wording is clear: you use the bearer's unmodified leadership instead of your own, and then you modify it as normal.

>>5060119

Only not. That would be ostentatiously unintuitive. When it comes time to take the morale/pinning test, instead of using its own modified leadership the unit uses the model's unmodified leadership.

>>5060967
The word 'unmodified' is there to mean "if the model whose Ld you're using is within 6" of Seraphim, you don't get to use the +1 Ld bonus". It doesn't say that your Ld becomes unmodifiable.

>>5061087

It doesn't matter what modifiers are on your leadership, because you aren't using it for the check. You're using the unmodified leadership from the model with the book.

'ignoring modifiers' doesn't mean 'ignoring bonuses.' The fact that it has been consistently rules to be functionally stubborn really doesn't hurt matters, here.

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>>5061098
Yes, you're using the unmodified leadership of the model with the book instead of your own, and then you modify that leadership for things that would affect you as normal.