Where the fuck are all those organs going to come from?

But yeah, I see your point.

>>4983574
>Where the fuck are all those organs going to come from?

Same place hospitals get organs from: donors.

>>4983574
Clones. BUT CLONING HUMANS IS IMMORAL.

>>4983593
Donations from the people who are no longer dying?

>>4983574

You know that movie: "The Island" with the Clones? Yeah, the organs would come from that. Or hobos.

Or ya know we can make human organs using stem cells, but fucking everyone is against stem cell research.

>>4983606
"Donations" indeed.

Clone the organs.

Maybe these awesome doctors should come to the UK and try their crap there. We're about to start cloning blood for transfusions! The US would've been cloning livers and shit by now if Bush hadn't of banned everything, you'd have thought the immortals would have been able to stop that ban. Now Bush is gone and the ban lifted a little bit maybe we'll see cloned hearts and livers made from stem cell donations.

Well, since it's WoD... they'd probably be brutally murdered.

Is there any drawback to being a Patchwork Person? Like the Prometheans' disquiet?

It's the same as vampires really... OH NO, I MUST DRINK BLOOD TO SURVIVE! WOE IS ME!

We can already use induced pluripotent stems to make kidneys, hearts, lungs, pancreatic tissue, nerves, etc. out of skin cells. Unfortunately, it's approaching bannable levels of medical technology and will probably be proscribed by at least one major religion in the near future, certainly before human trials finish.

>>4983560
Because economics and limited resources. If everyone is immortal and those immortals produce immortal children, there won't be enough resources in the fucking universe to sustain us.

>>4983613
>>4983626
I'd be down the cloned organs, we just don't the tech yet.

>>4983606

Well, consider that there are many people in the world who end up donating their organs upon death. This alchemical pacemaker that the Patchwork People use is extremely expensive (in game terms, Resources 5 expensive), and so the number of people willing to pay up for one of these Pyros systems can't possibly exceed the number of people donating organs, even if knowledge of it were to be spread to the public.

>>4983651

Being a Patchwork Person is actually pretty sweet. You get a bonus dot in Strength and Dexterity, two dots in the Striking Looks merit if you didn't have it before, a complete lack of need for sleep, immunity to unconsciousness (that is, bashing damage can't K.O. you), and obviously immortality. The only downside is that being able to afford the alchemical pacemaker requires Resources 5, and you need to have some organs replaced every decade. No Disquiet, Torment, or Wasteland at all.

>>4983705
And I even accidentally a whole cloned organ!

>>4983710
Patchwork Persons pretty much have it "made", one might say.

>>4983666
Figures that you of all people would say something like that

>>4983744
You have me in stitches. LOL!

The author's a Jehovah's Witness, durr

I gotta agree with the OP.

Scientists don't like to keep secrets. Really, they don't. Peer review is an essential part of the scientific process, and the acclaim and recognition that comes from a major discovery is one of the greatest rewards of science.

As for the expense of the pacemaker and the problem of replacement organs... science isn't fucking static. Scientists don't just invent something with major downsides and leave it at that. The first organ transplants were invariably fatal. The first airplane could barely support a person's weight, and had a range measured in yards. Air conditioners were once incredibly expensive devices for the comfort of the wealthy elite; now there's one in every car.

So, yeah, publish your immortality research, receive Nobel prize, and get bright young graduate students around the world working on ironing out the kinks.

I get that the world of darkness has a mandatory DARK SECRETS quotient for everything, but in this case there's no real reason for it.

rolled 5 = 5

>>4983710
Can Mages or Geists become Patchwork People, or does the influence of the supernatural fuck the magical pacemaker up?

>>4983813

And on that note, a lot about Promethean pisses me off, specifically the way angst is mechanically mandatory. I'll roleplay how I wanna roleplay. Adding in Torment and Disquiet mechanics so that the dice force me to be a misunderstood, lonely outsider seems like forcing the issue. Deus Angst Machina.

>>4983813
Agreed...White Wolf's Luddite tendencies are starting to grate on the nerves a bit. They've been a bit better about it with nWoD, but goddamn. Remember oWoD Mage? Remember in the Gehenna book how they wrote about how a clone doesn't have a soul in that "of COURSE it doesn't!" sort of tone? Goddamn.

>>4983824

The entire Immortals book is kind of shoddy in explaining the compatibility of immortality methods with supernatural templates. A mage can become a Blood Bather from the first chapter of the book, but not a Purified from the third chapter, because Purified is an actual template and it explicitly states that it's incompatible with other templates. A Hunter can become a Harvester from the final chapter of the book, and a damn good Hunter/Harvester at that because a Harvester gets to stunlock things like crazy, but that's possibly because Hunter isn't a true template.

Since Patchwork Person isn't a true template, it's possible that a mage may become one, but this is really an ST call.

rolled 2 = 2

>>4983710
Can Mages or Geists become Patchwork People, or does the influence of the supernatural fuck the magical pacemaker up?

OK you might think the above is retarded, but here is a justification:

A significantly large group of scientists and researchers are doing some research in a far off place. Think of a team going to a small island in international waters because the research topic is banned in their home countries, and it turns out it would be more beneficial to go to said island instead of some other country.

Someone makes a discovery that could be ground breaking. Due to the nature of their isolation, however, they cannot immediately get word out to other researchers throughout the world. Perhaps the subject of their research might even necessitate their death!

Maybe the research lab is so well-monitored that the patriarch of the centre immediately finds out of the discovery and takes matters into his own hands.

Maybe they have the technology to brainwash or enslave people. Maybe the patriarch killed everybody and instructed children to do exactly his bidding. They grow up thinking that they must keep it secret lest their gifts be taken away.

It is easy enough to make examples of people who tried to tell others but were murdered (killed by fate in eyes of others) because of their attempted escape. Only those born on the island can reap the benefits of this discovery, etc.

I think the premise can be justifiable on many sides.

>>4983928
That "explanation" sounds incredibly asinine. INTERNATIONAL WATERS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY.

>>4983863
Without these mechanics, you're just zombies with superpowers.

>>4983933
In international waters..strange things happen.

I bet your mom looked like this, trollfag.

>>4983876

Christ, yes.

Remember old changeling? Accepting that the real world doesn't work on dream logic is TERRIBLE and LOSS OF INNOCENCE. Growing up is succumbing to banality!

Remember old werewolf? Industry and technology were THE DEVIL. Factories RAPE MOTHER EARTH.

Of course, the most blatant, archetypal example was old mage. Science was, basically, the enemy. It was not only wrong, but evil. Examining the evidence and coming to a consensus about how the world worked was a plot by the MAN to KEEP US DOWN. The discoveries made and shared by generations of scientists, the search for truth, understanding, and mastery, the acceptance that the world doesn't work like you initially accepted and is sometimes downright counter intuitive... the courage and intelligence to embrace all that and see the wonder in it... all TOOLS OF OPPRESSION.

Fuck you, White Wolf.

Perhaps it was discovered by EVIL scientists.

Simple explanations are the best.

>>4983953
Dare I ask what the source of that is, and if it gets any better.

>>4983863

...Its kinda the point of the game though. I quite like how White Wolf give mechanical advantages or disadvantages to certain roleplaying quirks, as well as compelling certain actions in certain circumstances. Its interesting to play with restrictions, beyond those you set for yourself, or at least I find it so.

>>4983876

Did you even read the Guide to the Technocracy? WoD has always been moral grey, with each faction having positive and negative aspects.

Just because a writer or game designer incorporates certain themes doesn't mean they believe in them, just that they think is interesting. Magic vs Science is fun, and it works just as well with either being the badguys, yet writing a setting with Science as evil doesn't make you a luddite. It just means you find writing that an interesting experience. People often write against what they believe in, as a way of deconstructing it or experimenting with their own beliefs.

I can see why It'd get irritating, but don't be so quick to make assumptions.

>>4983928
That's still not a very credible explanation. I don't even think it makes for an interersting plot hook.

>>4983953
Shit, yeah. Never mind that in this magical world of fairies and mysticism you were liable to get EATEN by a fucking...well, ANYTHING. White Wolf dropped plenty of shit on the technocracy or the weaver, but goddamn at least they give the average joe a fighting chance against the monsters. It's kind of funny how they inadvertently made the antagonists more attractive than the heroes. Solipsistic power trips vs the collective good.

This is why I played Technocracy and Hunter.

>Science!

>>4983876

This example is hardly "Luddite" as nWoD has largely expunged all traces of that (complete with factions focused on EXTREEEEEME SCIENCE! Like the Free Council Mages or Iron Master werewolves)

This example just shows poor knowledge about how scientists operate.

>>4983953

It was the 90's. That the setting was like that is hardly a surprise.

why game hate science

>>4984037
Actually, that's a good point. Why WAS there so much hating on science and technology in the 90s? Not just in WW, but everywhere.

Science << Magic <<<<<< SCIENCE!

>>4983946
>>4983964

The people I play with a good enough to roleplay without being forced to roleplay a certain way. Being an artificial lifeform is enough cause for angst and introspection without adding a mechanic that states "when you have accumulated X angst points, you must embark on a period of introspection lasting X months." I agree that restrictions can lead to interesting roleplaying, but I feel like Disquiet and Torment overstep that and go well into the territory of the writers trying to force you to play their way; angsty loners only, final destination.

And yeah, the guide to the Technocracy is one of my favorite WW books. Still, if you play a technocrat the book makes it pretty clear you're either a villain or secretly rebellious. Drow or Drizz't. Er, if Drizz't was quietly working within the matriarchy to bring about gradual reform. Ok, bad example.

And writers should be encouraged to explore whatever themes they want to... but, like Heinlein and incest, when they return to the same theme over and over it's hard not to get the impression that there's something personal going on there.

>>4984058
We didn't have to worry about terrorist attacks, so we found weirder things to worry about.

>>4984073
>The people I play with a good enough to roleplay without being forced to roleplay a certain way. Being an artificial lifeform is enough cause for angst and introspection without adding a mechanic that states "when you have accumulated X angst points, you must embark on a period of introspection lasting X months.

Gee, because it's not like everything else is externalized.

>but I feel like Disquiet and Torment overstep that and go well into the territory of the writers trying to force you to play their way; angsty loners only, final destination.

You're supposed to be playing David Banner. If you don't want to play David Banner, play another game.

>angsty

Stop using that word, god damnit. There's an entire fucking essay in Strange Alchemies about how the modern usage of "angst" doesn't apply.

>>4983961
Seconding this.

>>4984104
Alice in Wonderland.

>>4984068
Petulant table!

>>4984068

I have long been of the opinion that science = SCIENCE! It's just a matter of enthusiasm.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm hungry... so I'm going to go get in a steel and glass box and, via a serious of small explosions powered by a fluid derived from the remains of lifeforms a billion years old, accelerate to a speed of over a mile a minute, and then, once I have safely arrived at my destination, buy a sandwich.

>You're supposed to be playing David Banner. If you don't want to play David Banner, play another game.

Aaaaaaaaand its this kind of attitude that is the cancer that killed Promethean, or at least prevented it from being a success like Changeling. The Deniers got a whole, what, one paragraph?

>>4984058

Blame Captain Planet, the Greenpeace and environmentalist faggots. Hmph, the only thing that people forget about the Technocracy is that they might be ruthless, but they are the ones protecting the reality from crazy magic faggots.

>>4984114
Centimani got plenty of coverage.

>>4983949

>>4984073
If I remember correctly that pic is from a short comic. Does anyone know what it's called?

>>4984111
Science is when you attempt to locate the genes responsible for causing Diabetes so that you can cure babies when they're already in their mother's womb.

SCIENCE! is when you build a helmet that lets you communicate with ants and use it for fighting crime.

>>4983949
Why would you save that image?

>>4984138
Yeah... and the Hundred Handed Path A) doesn't disallow the Pilgrimage (there are even Centimanic Athanors) and B) is portrayed as being heinously evil for no real reason. In fact, they're the principal bad guys of the setting.

>>4984073
Normally I might agree, but since not being accepted is such an important theme in Promethean I'd say giving you a mechanical reason for it is necessary. Else it would just all be "people are dicks".

>>4983876 Remember in the Gehenna book how they wrote about how a clone doesn't have a soul in that "of COURSE it doesn't!" sort of tone?

Ugh, that pissed me off. Then again, I'm willing to ascribe a soul to any sentient robot that gets invented irl, so whatever.

>>4984222
Okay, so what the fuck are you complaining about?

>>4984228
The problem with Promethean is more in the tone and the rabid attitude of most of its fans. Vampires are just as horrifically socially crippled as Prometheans (hope you enjoy social pools capping at four vs humans!), but the tone is different.

>>4984222
>>heinously evil for no real reason

Uh, because Centimani use Flux, which is destructive and tend to command herds of Pandorans which EAT PROMETHEANS?

You do realize few people actually die from old age right? A majority is from sickness or other causes; especially in the WoD.

>>4984257
Let's be honest, though - if a Vampire wants to play around with mortals in a social setting, he's just going to toss around some Presence or Dominate. Bam, new friends everywhere. ^_^

>>4984257
Can you elaborate on what you mean by having problems with Promethean's tone? Also, I don't really know anything about Promethean's fans.

>>4984252
I'm complaining that they rather ram the Pilgrimage down your throat in it and 99% of the time portray those who avoid it as 2 dimensional villains. That's probably a big part of the reason why Promethean was the only major splat that did worse than WtA.

The game works fine without the whole idea of becoming human having to be the motivation of all characters. The whole negative self hating thing works for a few sessions, but some people want to play characters more like transhumanists than transsexuals.

>>4984276

Yeah... but its not actually destructive when used by a Centimanus. Also, its not like he can't feed the Pandorans himself, and in fact, it mentions that they can do just that.

>>4983560

To make the peacemaker work, recipient needs to eat a small baby and fuck a loli.

>>4984330
>>I'm complaining that they rather ram the Pilgrimage down your throat in it and 99% of the time portray those who avoid it as 2 dimensional villains. That's probably a big part of the reason why Promethean was the only major splat that did worse than WtA.
>>The game works fine without the whole idea of becoming human having to be the motivation of all characters

But since becoming human is pretty much the theme Promethean was designed around, I'd say you should probably play a different game if you don't want it in. Also, SUPERPOWERED ZOMBIES THAT EAT LIGHTNING has to come with serious drawbacks if you don't want a superhero game.

>>4984330
>99% of the time portray those who avoid it as 2 dimensional villains.

No, they portary them as broken, incomplete beings, which is what they are.

Seriously, in the introductory motherfucking fiction, Verney starts off as not following the pilgrimage. He's hardly a villain.

>>4984452
Well, if you can't see the hypocrisy of saying that an entire gameline must be about a single thing (ie. wangst) then I'm not going to even bother. But its the only WoD game other than Werewolf that has the attitude of take it or leave it, and the game is definitely strong enough on its own, with enough of a sense of conflict, that it doesn't need the whole emo aspect to be paraded as mandatory.

>>4984495
And he sees the light by the end of it. I don't consider that the same thing.

>>4984037
>It was the 90's. That the setting was like that is hardly a surprise.
Ironically, the few settings WW released where Science == Good (besides Mage from anyone but Humanity's and the Technocracy's POV) did horribly.

I'm talking, of course, of the Trinityverse. Trinity, which I suspect had some going "What, vampires in space?" (since it was WW) and had its last book pre-d20 do better than expected and still be a moneyloss (idiots). Aberrant, which, I don't know. I guess people didn't like a setting with superhumans which generally acted like people would do. It's not like there wasn't sources of conflicts, but the game seemed to focus on the whole "who killed Slider" thing alot. And I was never much of a fan of the mega-dice, myself.
Adventure, which was awesome, had exactly one book planned and released, and turned up around the same time as Exalted. I'm not sure people even noticed it with all those Exalted promotionals.

>>4984545
That's really all that's possible. You might stumble and fall to the wayside, but you can never really escape it. It's what you were made to do.

>>4984586
Well, if you OM NOM 3 prometheans, you're off it for life. Likewise, it does say that there's a group (the Deniers, or the Refusers, I forget which) that don't go on it, and that even some on the path of Aurum believe that the Azoth qualifies as a soul.

>>4984527
What I'm saying is more alon the lines of if you don't want high fantasy, you should probably not use Dungeons and Dragons as your system.

>>4984640
Right... except D&D works fine for things other than high fantasy, which TSR realized (and hopefully WotC will or has). See; Dark Sun & Ravenloft. Not to mention they produce classes and monsters with a wide range of themes, etc.

In Promethean, its a game about being an artificial human first, and being an angsty little bitch second (as you can remove the latter aspect and its still the same game, but you can't remove the first aspect). However, the authors mainly push the latter aspect anyway, and thus, its sales sucked. Its analogous to the whole "No, you can't play a Hollywood werewolf, shamans only, final destination" of WTF, which is why its tanking as well.

>>4984675
>being an angsty little bitch

Man, you're a douche.

>"No, you can't play a Hollywood werewolf, shamans only, final destination"

Hollywood werewolves are incredibly boring.

>>4984698
... Before reading your statement I was thinking like a Hollywood scriptwriter who's a werewolf. Possibly a few actors.

It was an amusing image.

>>4984675
>>Right... except D&D works fine for things other than high fantasy, which TSR realized (and hopefully WotC will or has). See; Dark Sun & Ravenloft.

I was thinking of "standard"-DnD. Of course different settings are possible, as is the case with WoD.

>>Not to mention they produce classes and monsters with a wide range of themes, etc.
Again, as they do for WoD. What I'm saying is if you have a DnD-Campaign in the Dark Sun setting for example, you shouldn't complain that avery character has to do so much resource managemant and that survival is such major theme.

>>In Promethean, its a game about being an artificial human first, and being an angsty little bitch second (as you can remove the latter aspect and its still the same game, but you can't remove the first aspect). However, the authors mainly push the latter aspect anyway,

I don't really see them saying "go cry in a corner" much in the books. They even have that paragraph about not just angsing it up in that one book.

>>and thus, its sales sucked. Its analogous to the whole "No, you can't play a Hollywood werewolf, shamans only, final destination" of WTF, which is why its tanking as well.

Again, it's a problem you have with the setting. It's like going into a standard DnD game and complaining there's too much magic.

>Man, you're a douche.

NO U. Seriously, when you take such a vain theme that should be a vague sidebar like Golconda, and fixate on it, its no wonder Promethean didn't take off like Changeling. Its not like a lack of a central theme ever hurt the old or new mage.

>>4984776
Yeah, fuck experimentation. White Wolf should only ever make games which are garunteed to make money.

>Again, it's a problem you have with the setting. It's like going into a standard DnD game and complaining there's too much magic.

You're REALLY arguing that the Pinocchio thing is as inherent to the concept of roleplaying artificial beings as magic is to D&D? Its good for a fairy tale for children, but making it obtainable and railroading all PCs into it just isn't a good decision on any level. Though I'm curious, can you name a story in which the created protagonist becomes An Pinocchio and it doesn't suck?

Its more analogous to going into a standard FR game and complaining there's too many wizards or gods that used to be PCs. Or more specifically, its like saying that WotC killed FR (in terms of selling more FR campaign products, anyway) because they focused on an arbitrary and alien theme.

Or, similarly, it'd be like saying that Paranoia 5e took the game in an utterly foreign, retarded, and unnecessary direction.

Its one thing to criticize a successful venture, its quite another to discuss why a discontinued venture was discontinued.

>>4984073
The Goon is the best fucking comic ever

>>4984879
>You're REALLY arguing that the Pinocchio thing is as inherent to the concept of roleplaying artificial beings as magic is to D&D?

Every single work of fiction that involves artificial beings as something other than killer robots either has A) the beings learning about what it means to be human or B) humans act out their own prejudices on them because humans are dicks.

>>4984879
>>You're REALLY arguing that the Pinocchio thing is as inherent to the concept of roleplaying artificial beings as magic is to D&D? Its good for a fairy tale for children, but making it obtainable and railroading all PCs into it just isn't a good decision on any level. Though I'm curious, can you name a story in which the created protagonist becomes An Pinocchio and it doesn't suck?

I'd argue it's central to the way Promethean was written, but I do understand that it's not central to the concept of playing an artificial being, which is why I say you should probably play a different game if you don't like it.
A game that has you play an artificial being without the theme of becoming human as a major focus.
As it is, I stand by my point of you mostly critisizing the game setting because of a theme you dislike.

>>4984925
Yes, that would be my point, thank you.

>>4984094
>You're supposed to be playing David Banner. If you don't want to play David Banner, play another game.

So, you're saying there is only one character concept/personality that you can play in Promethean. You don't see this as a problem?

>>4984452
>becoming human is pretty much the theme Promethean was designed around

I'm not sure I agree. See, White Wolf makes it easy to figure out the theme of their books by putting the theme in the title. In Vampire: the Masquerade the theme was the masquerade; the complications that arise from being a non-human sub-population living among and pretending to be humans. In Hunter: the Vigil, the theme is the Vigil; the dangers and isolation that come from the self-imposed mission to oppose or expose the monsters lurking in the darkness.

In Promethean: the Created, the theme could have been the difficulties and philosophical quandaries that arise from being a created, artificial being. It could have explored myriad ways the various created respond to this problem. Instead, if you don't want to become human you're wrong and/or evil. The idea of artificial people allows for far more stories than just Pinocchio, over and over, but the mechanics needlessly limit the stories you can tell.

>>4985111
>The idea of artificial people allows for far more stories than just Pinocchio, over and over

It really doesn't.

I want to be the little boy dump.

>>4985111

I'm tired of your bullshit. Either go make a better game, and/or rewrite Promethean, and do it better, or shut the fuck up and stop bitching. You dislike it. Okay, we get that. Now stop being a whiny little turd.

>>4985168

I assume you're being ironic.

>>4985204
Nope.

>>4985111
>>I'm not sure I agree. See, White Wolf makes it easy to figure out the theme of their books by putting the theme in the title. In Vampire: the Masquerade the theme was the masquerade; the complications that arise from being a non-human sub-population living among and pretending to be humans. In Hunter: the Vigil, the theme is the Vigil; the dangers and isolation that come from the self-imposed mission to oppose or expose the monsters lurking in the darkness.
While I do feel that you put a littel to much importance into the titles, I see your point.

>>In Promethean: the Created, the theme could have been the difficulties and philosophical quandaries that arise from being a created, artificial being. It could have explored myriad ways the various created respond to this problem. Instead, if you don't want to become human you're wrong and/or evil. The idea of artificial people allows for far more stories than just Pinocchio, over and over, but the mechanics needlessly limit the stories you can tell.
As the pilgrimages are portrayed to usually take a very long time, I don't really see a problem with exploring lots of different themes in your games. And I also don't think you're limited to end your stories with all Promethean characters becoming human. White Wolf just puts lots of emphasis on the aspect that the decision to try and become human (or not to) is probably the most important one a Promethean can make. I also do feel that the theme of what it means to be human is probably the most interesting one you can explore with the premiss of an artificial being.

>>4985203
Not the same guy, but see, my problem isn't what the books say, as I think the mechanics and the overall fluff is fine. Its more that if someone talks about running a Promethean game in a style they don't like -- ie Prometheans who aren't self hating, self destructive hypocrites -- then people bitch about U DOING IT RONG!

So, yeah. You're the whiny little turd, for having the attitude that if someone wants to roleplay a non-cookie cutter character, that they should have to play a different game.

Saging to let it die, unless you want to bitch more.

Because Pyros is rare, moron. If all the world know the trick, immortals would be in disarray.

>>4985203

How to fix Promethean:

Ditch disquiet and leave torment up to player roleplaying.
Explore themes other than becoming human.
Done.

I'm not saying it's a worthless game. I'm saying there are a couple things about it that irritate me.

>>4985168
>>4984925

Guess you haven't read any Culture novels, huh? The Ships are superintelligent AIs. They don't want to be human, thank you very much. They don't want to kill humans either.

That most fiction involving artificial beings goes either the pinocchio or killer robot route shows an irritating lack of imagination on the part of the writers involved.

Frankenstein's monster was an artificial man who was very well-spoken and well-read who wanted to raise his own race rather than become an human. He wanted his own undead waifu instead of human wimmin. He wasn't Pinnocchio at all.

>>4985247
>>Not the same guy, but see, my problem isn't what the books say, as I think the mechanics and the overall fluff is fine. Its more that if someone talks about running a Promethean game in a style they don't like -- ie Prometheans who aren't self hating, self destructive hypocrites -- then people bitch about U DOING IT RONG!

I can agree with that, since there's really no reason for you to play an optimistic Promethean. They can, after all, be pretty sure that they can actually become human in the end, if that's their goal.

>>ie Prometheans who aren't self hating, self destructive hypocrites -- then people bitch about U DOING IT RONG!

You're a mockery of life. You should be ashamed of yourself.

OR, you should be a Centimani.

I was going to join this thread when I saw it was about WoD, but then I saw that it was about faggotry and bitching.

Playing against type is encouraged in WoD, and doesn't countermand the game's theme.

>>4985280
>>They don't want to be human, thank you very much. They don't want to kill humans either.

I'd argue that's a possible ending for a promethean campaign as well.

>>4985324
Cool. I can't wait to make that Vamp who doesn't drink bood and is fine with the sun.

>>4985334
uh, playing against type would mean a vampire who doesn't care about the politics and enjoys his unlife.
It doesn't mean they don't have the weaknesses.

>>4985330
Yeah, if you want to be a bitter jaded cynic who's too frightened to try for his heart's desire.

>>4985353
We're talking about Prometheans not pursuing the pilgramage. Vampires who don't drink blood is very much the equivalent.

>>4985215
Okay. Bicentennial Man's a valid example, but AI isn't. In almost all stories about the Created, though obviously these stories are about the interaction between them and normal life forms, it can't be remotely argued that them being literally converted into a normal, organic, human being is the underlying theme in all of them. I know in AI, it isn't what happens.

>>4985334

My next vamp character:

John woke up one evening after a strange experience to find he had acquired super-human powers and a few strange vulnerabilities.

John immediately realized what this meant. So got a mask and a spandex costume and went out to save some women from muggers.

Occasionally, the Sun or Weekly World News would report that Captain Cosmic was a vampire or a werewolf or something, but the pictures were always blurry or obviously photoshopped (because John photoshopped them and mailed them in himself.)

>>4985247

I'm willing to let people play a campaign any way they want. I just don't like people who bitch and whine rather than doing something to fix it. If it isn't fun for you, change it!

Fuck Centimani.

Quishmallim are where it's at!

>>4985360

Nah, blood is the equivalent to pyros or electricity, and the politics is the equivalent of the pilgrimage. Or, you could argue the traditions are.

>>4985383

So Spiderman?

>>4985379
You do realise that it doesn't have to literally follow Pinocchio's story, right? Pomethean is about people outside of humanity learning about what it means to be human.

>>4985360
...
No it isn't.

Hell, the Pilgrimage isn't even necessary. I'd play a Promethean who was doing the whole Pilgrimage at first, but then decides he'd rather be a mad scientist.

The Pilgrimage is not the same as a vampire's blooddrinking and sunburning.

>>4985399
The Promethean chron I ran, featured a character who eventually realized he was a Qashmal, sent to help a Frankenstein girl achieve the Pilgrimage. Of course, he realized that if she was successful, or if she died, that he'dcease to exist...

So, about the OP... am I the only one who read this section and noted that this technology dates back to *1800*? That's not science at all, just pure alchemy.

>>4985383

I want pictures! Pictures that prove Captain Cosmic is a werewolf!

>>4985407
Except that Prometheans aren't addicted to pyros. They generate it naturally. They do, however, love the feel of vitriol and have an intense longing to complete the New Dawn, even if they don't think it exists.

>>4985446
Yeah, it is. The book blatantly lays out how much Prometheans wnat to become human. It's their overriding urge.

Sure, you can play it another way. I'm not going to stop you.

>>4985379
Okay. Bicentennial Man's a valid example, but AI isn't. In almost all stories about the Created, though obviously these stories are about the interaction between them and normal life forms, it can't be remotely argued that them being literally converted into a normal, organic, human being is the underlying theme in all of them. I know in AI, it isn't what happens.

I don't think anyone argues that turning into an actual human must be the theme of all fiction about artificial beings, but it is a very important theme in Promethean. I view most Prometheans trying to become human as a believable consequence of the option existing.

>>4985444
Yeah... that's the way its presented as, actually. The final part of the Pilgrimage is about forcing your oh-so-undesirable state on a new body, so that you can become human (and promptly become an insane amnesiac, most of the time).

As a personality quirk or personal obsession, the Pilgrimage is a cool idea. As an actual "win-the-game" mechanic that everyone insists you have to follow or else YOU SHOULDN'T PLAY THE GAME AT ALL, not so much.

>>4985493
I was referring to my examples, not to Promethean.

>>4985478
Your point? The vampires feel and embody the Traditions as well, to the point that they don't show up on cameras and find it incredibly psychologically destructive to create another of their kind, which they're not supposed to do.

So the equivalent of Promethean minus the auto-Pilgrimage is a Vampire setting where vampires show up on cameras.

>>4985517

You said that the notion of artificial life doesn't allow for any tale other than retelling Pinocchio, and I'm calling you on your bullshit.

>>4985529
No, it'd be one where they don't suck blood.

Because they're both pretty much the focus of the game line.

>>4985539
Really, because I don't fucking see it.

You've basically taken one tiny fucking detail, and sat there, yelling that it somehow invalidates my arguments.

The examples listed above are all about artificial beings learning about what it's like to be human, and in the meantime, enlightening us as to what that means. They can't reach the New Dawn in the sense in that they suddenly alchemically turn their body into humans flesh. But they do have apexs of their character arcs where they display real humanity. Like when Batty pulls Deckard up, or when the Terminator gives the thumbs up as he's lowered into the vat.

>>4984675

Wat.

You can play a Hollywood werewolf.

GHOST WOLVES UP IN THIS BITCH. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON BUT WE'RE STILL WEREWOLVES.

Seriously, read the damn book before you bitch.

Alternatively if you want to get deep into the RIP AND TEAR side, find a ST willing to play a Pure game and play a Predator King. PK's not only don't give a rat's ass about the spirit world, they EAT HUMANS, which almost no other Uratha do.

>>4985547
Exploring humanity can be done in other ways than setting out to become a human. Not embarking on a pilgrimage could easily do this if your character has good reasons for it.

>>4985630
Also, we don't even need a fucking New Dawn equivalent. We need a pilgrimage equivalent, which all of those examples have. The destination doesn't matter, the journey does.

>>4985669
Tip: Exploring Humanity = The Pilgrimage, you douche.

>>4985630
You actually fucking think that the difference between a literal and a figurative humanization process is a "little detail?" Jesus Christ, you're dumb as a box of rocks.

Case in point. Even you can see the difference between War of the Worlds and the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, right? Or to use a shittier example, Signs vs Left Behind. There's a huge fucking difference between an implied miracle that takes the form of wisdom, and a heavy handed literal miracle.

>>4985630

Pinocchio is about attempting to turn yourself into a human. Deciding that you already ARE a human is an equally acceptable resolution.

>>4985547
No. They aren't.

It's possible to play a Promethean who doesn't care about the Pilgrimage. It isn't possible to play a vampire that doesn't eat blood.


As for the whole "artificial life has to be about becoming human" thing...
Why can't it be about becoming something of your own? Why not be a Promethean who wants to know about humanity not so that he can become part of it, but for the same reason that developing governments study other governments.
So that they can emulate humans as much as they need to, but create a Promethean society or something.

>>4985693
Even though SOMEBODY IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET, I'm not going to continue posting here, as we obviously have so radically different understandings of the Promethean's theme that it wouldn't be fruitful in the least.

>>4985721
You're retarded. The entire fucking point of promethean is that it's emotional changes manifest in the physical. When your character knows what it's like to be human, he becomes one.

Removing "then he becomes one" does not exactly stop the last two hours of film jiving with the metaphor.

>>4985746
>It's possible to play a Promethean who doesn't care about the Pilgrimage.

It isn't possible to play a Promethean who doesn't care about the Pilgrimage.

See, I can make these statements as well.

I'm going to archive this thread.

The basic issue with how the Prometheans are handled is that the whole concept --that artificial people would necessarily WANT to be humans-- smacks of supreme arrogance on the part of the writers.

>>4985841
Please don't. It's just an unrepentant bitchfest.

>The entire fucking point of promethean is that it's emotional changes manifest in the physical.

No, the entire point of promethean is that the Divine Fire of Prometheus is knowledge mankind was not meant to have, and that being careless with the Pyros can have terrible consequences. Its a modern retelling of Greek myth, the Pinocchio shit is just an aberrant wart on its ass.

>>4983953

But isn't the whole point of these games writing from a non-human viewpoint?

Humans fucking LOVE technology. Things that don't need it and are inconvenienced by it don't. Obvious.

>>4985850
Well, that's the conceit of the setting, isn't it?

>>4985862
Holy fuck, you are retarded.

Exploring what it means to be human is the entire fucking point of Promethean. Claiming otherwise is incredibly fucking stupid.

>>4985830
Prometheans don't die if they don't study humans. Vampires need to drink blood though.

>>4985746
>>Why can't it be about becoming something of your own? Why not be a Promethean who wants to know about humanity not so that he can become part of it, but for the same reason that developing governments study other governments.
So that they can emulate humans as much as they need to, but create a Promethean society or something.

I don't really see anything that would stop you from playing such a character.

>>4985885
>Prometheans don't die if they don't study humans.

Yes, they do. After about a hundred or so years.

>Claiming otherwise is incredibly fucking stupid.

Well, you gave the dumbed down version of my paragraph, which is good I guess.

>>4985912
They get another 100 years of life if they reset their Azoth score.

>>4985896
Well, there's the whole "longing for human contact" thing and the "not really liking other prometheans that much".

>>4985924
>No, the entire point of promethean is that the Divine Fire of Prometheus is knowledge mankind was not meant to have, and that being careless with the Pyros can have terrible consequences.

Yeah, I can totally see "Exploring what it means being human" in there.

>>4985964
I guess you're an illiterate moron then? Don't know what else to say.

>>4985862

Apart from too sweet tones (but packed with drama), you know Pinocchio was NEVER and I mean NEVER really happy for more than moments before becoming a real kid, rigth?
(ok, Paese dei Balocchi or whatever it's in english as an exception - with quite some price, I dare to say)

>>4985941
Because there can never be character development at all, am I rite?

YOU WILL NOW REREAD THIS THREAD IN MY VOICE.

>>4985912
I can see how they're similar.

>>4985941
That's why they'd want to study the humans to know why they did it.

>>4986032
Yeah, just like Vampires can develop past drinking blood.

>>4986002
Yeah... that's why I'm calling it the Pinocchio elements. I'm not saying they can't make for good roleplaying in moderation, but a whole game line shouldn't be all Pinocchio, all the time.

>>4986002

That's because he was a faggot.

>>4986055
They can certainly develop past feeding on humans. Though the better analogy is a vampire accepting that he needs to feed and doing so in a humane fashion.

>>4986056
Too bad, I guess.

>>4986055
Humans can't give up eating, but they might grow fond of something they disliked before.

>>4986055

Pretty fucking close. With the right coils (and peaceful circumstances) you only need to drink a handful of times a year.

>>4986075
No. It's not a psychological thing, or a choice. It's their very nature to long for human contact and resent the only people they can interact with safely.

>>4985876

...but they're not. Very few supernaturals are actually inconvienced by it at all.

Some even take extreme advantage of it. Free Council uses it to perform magic overtly without disblief (any sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic, after all), Iron Masters reign in the Urban and Technological spirits to build their power bases. Etc.

>>4986096
Only one of the Refinements is about interacting with humans, dawg. The hermit one (Cuprum I believe) is just as valid.

>>4986055
Goddamnit you are so dumb that it hurts.