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  • File :1235080769.png-(491 KB, 646x448, Internet.png)
    491 KB Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)16:59 No.3762660  
    New Server Crash thread.

    Also was the old one archived?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:02 No.3762683
    The old one got archived. You can always check yourself if you're uncertain.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:02 No.3762686
    Obligatory links to previous threads:
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:03 No.3762691

    So can anyone give me some input on what they want the logo to be like?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:04 No.3762704
    Ehh, use your imagination. Provide us with examples. Then it'll be easier to give feedback.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:06 No.3762718

    Examples of my past logos or examples of reference imagery for server crash?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:06 No.3762721
    Hmmm.... well it'd have to have the major elements. So we need something that show the GRIMDARK... perhaps a Cyber? They are all fairly Chimeric some descriptions are in some of the story.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:07 No.3762728
    I can't think of anything other elements like green wireframe/Matrix text and maybe something like tv static.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:10 No.3762740
    Maybe an old? Or at least the three red eyes.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:14 No.3762759
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    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:17 No.3762780
    Make it a Trojan.

    Have the charming OS girl with hair flowing high, only the hair is superficial and you can see below memory modules, her eyes have no eyelids but shine beautyfully and the underarm showing by the hand in her neck you can see veins as brass lines and cables.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:18 No.3762790

    I don't think anything should unify the Olds. Not even their hatred for everything. They even hate each other. DnD Demons on Nightmare Mode snorting Nightmare Unleaded gasoline up what orifices they have.

    There was a man who stayed at the tavern. He had a room upstairs. His food was brought up to him. He only came down once a cycle. And only during the scripted day. Some said he came down for the company, but I don't know about that. He never spoke to a single soul I saw, just stared, blank, into his drink.

    I'd come in that day after working with a group to push back the walls of the whole fort an entire half-mega, make room for the refugee camps we'll have ringing the town after another minifort off of DF Forums fell. Strenuous work for a newbie coder, to say the least. Some damned script kiddie was ruining it for me and the boys I was drinking with who worked on the wall with me. Ruining it for everyone else too but his own table by the glares he was getting. If looks could kill, this guy would be fried quicker than a worm caught in a Dorffortlock scan.

    And then he said it. The big one. He said the word.

    "Hell, these people round here would call a well-virus an Old, they suck... so... much?"

    Everyone seemed too scared to defrag him, you know? You could tell who were the first gens, the ones who immediately crossed themselves or did some sort of quick handsigns. Some choked on their drinks, some started crying, tears running down their face into their glasses, some grew bug-eyed and moved to open link-apps- some kneeled right there and started praying. but everyone in that previously raucous bar was dead silent.

    When the first chair scraped against the stone floor I thought someone was going to run out into the street to throw up. But then they were all frozen scared, weren't they? No. He got up. And then he walked towards the Script-kiddie.
    >> polite 02/19/09(Thu)17:24 No.3762828
         File :1235082297.jpg-(154 KB, 464x256, servercrash2.jpg)
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    Don't mind me, just playing with images.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:25 No.3762829
    Crossposting shitty writing in new thread srs biz

    >Trolls aren't smart or active enough to be BBEGs

    A group of men approached CALU's modest defense wall.

    The Webfort perimeter wall opened almost immediately. Links and other news broadcasts had been unreliable at best recently, so Administrator Luann decided to let the travelers to try and get some information.

    She paused for a moment. "Apologies, formalities first." A small device was produced from her pocket and she whipped it back and forth in front of the visitors as per anti-virus protocols.

    "Greeting, my name is Administrator Lua ---" She suddenly went silent. Time seemed to stop and she had just realized how badly she had erred. Now the entire university was about to pay a price in blood because of her.

    The men in front of her started to smile. Dressed in relatively modest casual wear from the late 90s, they didn't seem too threatening. Looks can be deceiving.

    The man in front smiled so hard you could see his wisdom teeth. So hard that it seemed to pain him. The others did the same.

    The administrator continued to stare at her little device. The words "GNAA" flashed repeatedly with a quiet urgency.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:31 No.3762890
    ...I don't get it. I feel stupid now.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:32 No.3762894

    I find that one weirdly creepy. In a book, that'd make a good inside cover or chapter header.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:38 No.3762944

    The three eyes would serve as a common factor between them, helping define them etc. It'd also be even more scary, not less. I Imagine people would use that as a sign of "Beware, old's abound!". Imagine emerging from a clouded link, you jumped just for the hell of it, to see the three red eyes emblazoned on a wall. You know the only thing that sign can mean- There Was an old here. It might still be here. Be very, very quiet...
    >> polite 02/19/09(Thu)17:39 No.3762953
         File :1235083156.jpg-(114 KB, 464x256, servercrash3.jpg)
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    Improvement? Perhaps.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:42 No.3762975
    "The first thing you feel is cold. Even the ones who are born-'lectric, those who don't have a word for it, they know they're cold."

    Snikt. Snikt-Snikt.. Snikt-Snikt. Snikt-Snikt-Snikt. Below his robes, something-several somethings sounded like they were slithering and clicking across the floor, like some big nasty Cyber with scales bellying across a page.

    "The hairs on the back of your neck rise. You start to twitch involuntarily."

    Snikt-Snikt-Snikt-SNIKT. The others were pushing their chairs away from the table, the SK looking for all the 'net like a man with a shotgun pressed up a nostril.

    "You might smell rotten meat. Sickly sweet, pungent, engrossing."

    You could've heard a pin drop. You could've heard a lurker tracking a surfer- in Wiki. There could've been a /b/arbarian crusade passing right outside our door and not a soul would move or react. They'd keep watching what was going on.
    Snikt... Snikt... Snikt...

    Snikt. He was standing before the kiddie. The braggart was sweating bullets.

    "And then a little part of your meatbrain in the back from way back when we used to climb up trees to hide from tigers tells the big part of your brain in the front a very important message: 'Shit yourself. Because you're terrified of something that's going to eat you in the dark.'"
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:44 No.3762991
    Hm... Glowing robot red eyes would probably be scarier.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:44 No.3762992
    The way I was imagining the Old's eyes was more like a trio of glowing red lights than actual eyes, though still in a triangular pattern like that.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:46 No.3763018
    Run kiddie, run! Wolverine is going to get you!
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:48 No.3763034
    The SK lets out a whimper and starts to tremble. The place seems darker. The man puts his hands to the belt holding the folds of his robe tightly to his chest. I can see from the sides that the bottom of his robes seem to be shaking, frantically.

    "An Old is an Old. You'll know it when you see it. There's nothing else that can describe the experience, because each one is different to the other, but yet, somehow exactly the same. -Because every fucking time someone sees an old, they're ALWAYS scared halfway out of their code and terrified that the rest of their lifetime is going to be utter torment unimaginable and that it is going to last a very, VERY LONG TIME!!"

    He's calm. He's perfectly calm. He's the picture of stoic. He is the avatar of rationality. Not a single trace of a madman who was standing just where he was a nanosecond before screaming, hissing, and throwing spittle down a man's throat. A man currently knocked out of his chair, a piss-stain spreading around his pants. He's standing over the script kiddie. He hasn't moved since the outburst- except for his hands, playing with the cord on his robes.

    "I was one of the first ones who tracked the lines down to the NORAD fort. One of the first Herders, when it was downright dangerous to be one of my kind. They thought the distractions would come in hand. They did, several times."

    He paused. "It wasn't enough."
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:54 No.3763084

    The thing is, they probably aren't really eyes. Humans call them that because we look at things and anthropomorphise them with faces. The olds probably have any number of senses to call on that would substitute for vision and given how old they are and how much they've upgraded themselves then they would each look really different.

    The "three eyes" could be, in reality, a common program that they all share. Maybe it is a copy of the original program that they all grew from, or a tool to help them with their original function. Maybe it's a weapon.

    Anyway, whatever it is, it could represent one of the few ways you could hurt an old - some direct link into the heart of the thing. A couple of problems with doing that - 1, it knows about this weakness and will defend itself accordingly. 2, to find out about this weakness, you'll have had to get up close to one AND hit it AND then get away from the pain maddened monstrosity and 3, until you actually try it, you don't know if its going to work. The person who told you about the weakness might have been lying.

    Just some thoughts.
    >> logo guy 02/19/09(Thu)17:56 No.3763096
         File :1235084164.jpg-(2.41 MB, 2000x1500, server crash 1.jpg)
    2.41 MB
    should we go with the white noise style or do something more cybery?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:56 No.3763102

    No. Did every Outsider from the Cthulhu Mythos have tentacles? That's what's being emulated.
    "We'd gone through data for Majestic Thirteen, The Kennedy Assassinations, the Crash in Siberia, Gagarin's last flight. We went through them all, trying to get direct links- or at least a safer pathway.

    "Since we'd gone through a wiki entry on a B-52, not a single one of us had seen a cyber, and the only Virii were mine.... We woke it up on the last leg of our journey. Right when we'd found a link." His hands were slowly taking the knot out of the cord for his robe. He wasn't staring at the Kiddie anymore. He was looking right through him.

    "The first warning we got was when Jeremy fell down, frothing at the mouth. Alicia and Bennet screamed when they saw it right next to us, and it turned... toward them, and they were gone. Not killed, not ripped apart. Gone. I think he saw them holding hands, think he... it realized that they had to be together, so it'd take them apart together. In it's own time. Jackson went down, grabbed his legs, dragged Fighting Jack into the darkness of itself. In moments Cass and I were the only ones left. And it all happened so -fast-."
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:57 No.3763120

    AN OLD DOES NOT HAVE ANY WEAKNESSES. The only weakness an old should have is that it can't kill everyone at once.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)17:58 No.3763126

    Ah, kind of hard to get across with my poor writing.

    The GNAA are an old trolling organization that still exist, actually. Notorious for trolling.

    I put forth the idea that the GNAA goes absolutely hogshit nuts with the new internet, creating a sort of "Neo-troll". A troll merely irritates, but a neo-troll is an organized destructive force that seeks only for destroy and upset the established order. "Ruin/Anarchists" if I had to use an existing term.

    Unless someone has a better word, I am not smert.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:01 No.3763151
    -LANteam entered myth.*ยบ#-
    "We don't need a new route, Locust"
    "Yes we do, a working frame tried to defrag us"
    "You know , your giant hamster actually feels soft, Locust"

    -/b/arry pees on the banner-
    "See, /b/arry is already improving the landscape"

    -banner.exe pops up-
    -banner.exe pops up-
    -banner.exe pops up-
    -banner.exe pops up-
    -banner.exe pops up-
    -banner.exe pops up-
    -banner.exe pops up-
    "Forget that, square formation"
    "We're four"
    "...Okay, hide behind Myrmidon"

    -banner.exe pushes Split. Split flies-

    -Locust scythes banner.exe. It dies-
    "Munch you damn beast!"
    "Sweet mother, that looks hideous"

    -Hamster.exe eats banner.exe. It is digested-
    -Jinx terminates banner.exe. it dies-
    -/b/arry mauls banner.exe. File corrupted-
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:01 No.3763155
    >I don't think anything should unify the Olds. Not even their hatred for everything.

    They won't work together, no. But I imagine they would happen to show up at the same time to wreck something that has pissed them off.

    After whatever it is has been destroyed, then it's COOOLLD AS ICCE, at best.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:03 No.3763172
    -banner.exe bashes Split. banner.exe bashes Split. banner.exe bashes Split-
    -Split vanishes. Split fails!-
    "Wait for it"

    -/b/arry bashes banner.exe. banner.exe bashes /b/arry. They stick-
    "He's on the line"
    "/b/arry, bring me that banner, he's our new pet!"

    -/b/arry throws banner.exe. It flattens-
    -banner.exe cuts Split. banner.exe bashes Split. Split faints-
    -Jinx executes SafeVault.exe. Split is now protected, buy the full program by 10.99$-
    -Locust leashes banner.exe. hamster.exe pulls-
    -/b/arry bites banner.exe. It is corrupted. hamsters .exe eats banner.exe. It is digested-
    -Jinx executes reboot.com. Split is restored-
    "Get him away from me"
    "You didn't do shit, Split. Works on this here"
    "I so want to throw an expletive at you, but i'm scared"

    -Split hacks banner.exe. Split recieves rider.gif-
    "Hey guys, i think this is... that porn thing"
    "We're rich?"
    "Doubtful. One image. Probably worth a few copies before degradation"
    "Fuck, we'll need to contact the Otaku Sages then. Looks 2d and animated"
    "Argh, i hate the Otakus, Locust"
    "But only you can know if they are screwing us. I'll be there, those Striker Otakus are scary. No man should wear thinghigh with rotors"
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:05 No.3763182
    Ohhhh, I see. Interesting. This actually gave me an idea. What a troll wants it to instigate an emotion - rage is the preferred choice but any negative emotion a depression, anything. A troll wants suffering, right? Well in a world with these Cthulu mindfucks of Cybers running about surely some of them might want to try to HARNESS that power, right? Another things is maybe they could try to program the rage, the adrenaline, right into your very code. Direct like.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:11 No.3763232
    "Cass had the link up. She was already working on it with Alicia when the Old hit us like a thunderbolt. I roared at my virii to attack the thing, and me and her started to jump through. It grabbed us both by the legs. Just like Jackson. I saw Cass dissapear into that darkness. I heard her screams abruptly stop. I wasn't going out like that." He shrugged off his robe.

    "I told the worms nearest me to tear through my torso, and I crawled to the link before it regained its composure."

    For minutes, as this man told his story, no one had moved. Everyone closed their eyes now. Some cursed, some screamed. The SK fainted. He wasn't alone. A writhing mass of sickening creatures, a pillar of them, supported a scarred and damaged torso. Snakes, spiders, worms, beetles- all manner of horrors, some passing out of and back into his chest, held him aloft.

    "It didn't follow. I didn't know why. I still don't. Maybe it went back to sleep. The other groups who'd been on the mission succeeded, some with casualties, but all of them finding a safe route. No one ever took that link. Nothing ever came out. They've built a virus and bot shop for home defense on top of it. I should feel honored."

    He shook his head, picked his robe back up, and walked up to the bar. The things under him bent so there was the semblance of him sitting so perfectly normally, so innocently on a stool, just like the man next to him- the horrors hidden under the cloth. Undetectable to any normal man. He leaned forward. The barman leaned back.

    "Get me another God damned drink."
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:18 No.3763299

    Okay, maybe I went a little overboard trying to make a point. There needs to be OTC anti-rage medicine...

    Got the train back on the tracks in the last post. Someone said in the first thread, then in the second thread, that the Olds can manifest as anything they want. And they want bad things usually. Hulking monstrosities, patchwork demons, steampunk walkers with, yes, if they want, glowing red eyes. I don't want to hear OMG EVIL SAM FISHER COMING TO KILL US GUISE every time I lean over to the prober/surfer and say "you sense an Old nearby. It is stirring." They can be anything. And unless they feel like fucking with you, or are DAMN far away slogging through a load of data to reach your party, they can be there whenever they want.

    They are not nice people.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:22 No.3763332
    How about a simple compromise? They have the eyes in whatever constitutes their base form, but can change at will into whatever hugeass monstrosity they want for however long they want as often as they want, usually only showing the eyes when they want the prey to know, with absolute, terrifying certainty, that this is an Old, and you will die a horrible death.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:30 No.3763388
    Can I just comment on the name? Is Server Crash really accurate? I mean technically it didn't crash we just got trapped? Although I guess Server Trapped doesn't have the same ring to it...
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:32 No.3763408

    I think what I've said is having the same effect on you as what you've said is effecting me. The old are not constrained by any set limits that we can recognize. They could tear a fort apart. They could miss a person (or half) in a party it attacks. There is no regularity, no consistency, no pattern to these things, just like Old Ones from Mythos. That's part of the horror!
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:36 No.3763442
    Due to increasing activity of /b/ raiding parties, link hub "Roy Roger's Really Rocking Railroad" has been officially designated "unsafe" by Valve assessment teams. This follows nearly a month of sporadic attacks.

    Highway KAPPA GREEN and "LOAF" are now once again available for usage. These were previously shut down due to a Webcrawler hive being located in the vicinity. /TG/ purification teams report that the hive has been destroyed and webcrawler activity has abated entirely.

    Severe link instability is being reported around webfort Microsoft. Microsoft has ceased patrols of it's associated through zones until the links become more stable. Travel to or from webfort Microsoft is not advised.

    Destruction of CHINANET webforts is resulting in a massive surge of activity from both Cybers, Neo-Trolls and malicious AI systems in the vicinity of CHINANET. Travelers are being advised to stay clear of CHINANET and not risk bodily harm in recovery operations.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:42 No.3763496
    >bodily harm
    code-ly harm?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:42 No.3763503

    It gets confused sometimes.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:48 No.3763539
    I think you're taking the Olds a little overboard. They're not a direct lift from lovecraft or anything. They're increadibly powerful, yes, and they are alien beings of spite and hate. But they are not a flat out rock falls. Sure, if the party tries to FIGHT one, they're already dead. But escaping one is possible. Outwitting one might be possible too. I mean, if they were really THAT almighty, then they'd have crushed the webforts by now.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:49 No.3763545
    Does art and video making still exist?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:54 No.3763576
    That's pretty cool. And I like the DOS prompt style.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)18:57 No.3763601

    Sure it does. Granted the reality of survival is more on the minds of most folks, but the larger webforts...
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:00 No.3763624
    I could see Wiki in particular being interested in that. Well, the ones that aren't deletionists or whatever they call themselves.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:00 No.3763628
    Speaking of that, anyone got any specific forms for a single Old in mind?

    Perhaps they would also be given names inspired by their behavior or favored shapes so people know where to avoid and how to escape a specific Old.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:04 No.3763650

    Does for first-gens. You ever try telling a third-gen, or even a second-gen why we called 'em viruses in the first place? You ever try explaining how we used to work when we had bodies. It's a lost cause man. Lost cause.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:08 No.3763684
    Are we using WoD still with the special stats, powers bought as specializations, options to have outsider powers at mayor cost, augmentations and shit?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:08 No.3763686
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    The constant "vision" I had is a massive hulking 4 legged beast. See crude attached "drawing".

    Tl;DR: Evil rampaging hippo with strange proportions. No mouth.

    Another good good vibe is loose Kaiju-big monster forms, but they can look like whateverthehell they want.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:10 No.3763704
    No point in worrying about them yet, we should get all the system stuff done first. That said, there was drawfaggotry in the fifth. It was a giant humanoid figure with three red eyes. Generic, but gets the point across.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:12 No.3763713
    Good thing we have Wikipedia. I like those folks, I even keep a backup of some of their data, just in case. Next time I travel to one of those DForts, I will hand it to them and ask them if they can implement mantis shrimps and sun scorpions. Their physics generator will ensure tame war mantis shrimps will rip straight through any Cyber siege.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:14 No.3763725
    No one has done any actual stats yet. I suggested doing an Artifice style tier system (with the tiers being abilities/feats/whatever instead of just categories), with our class concepts providing the zero tiers. It'd probably be something like Programming (Hacker and Prober), Data Manipulation (Virii Herder and Lurker) and Experience (Surfer).
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:15 No.3763734

    If someone lets an Old track them back, they do. Links can be built over or destroyed.

    But I do see and agree that an old is not automatically ROCKS FALL or 1d3 INVESTIGATORS EVERY ROUND, but something to run from, very fast. Maybe even something to be baited, like we saw in the.. what was it, the fourth, third threads ending fluff story? The one with the Prober who linked to LIEM WIRE and BIT TORMENT and started knocking on doors, looking for any old one to wake up? She called the App. Giant Bait- though it may have another name, since she was pants on head crazy. Old ones aren't infinite though. There is a finite number of them, and there can not be more. One ending is probably cause for a celebration like the 1914 christmas party the Germans and the Brits had during WWI. /b/arbarians, /v/isigoths, and Valve Fort members, everyone locking arms and doing the internet polka in celebration.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:16 No.3763739
    I have an idea for a name.... What if it was just called
    it is both an acronym for InterNet, and it also just means "inside", as in "inside the InterNet."
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:19 No.3763763
    Hmmm... doesn't look that impressive. How about in all caps? "IN". Oh! I had an idea! Right it goes IN and then something I can't think of what covers up the middle and then it ends in NET so it's easier to get it could either be INTERNET or IN THE NET.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:20 No.3763777
    I suggest Ea,
    an Old of most malicious design. no one knows if its one Old who always look the same or a shape the Olds sometimes take, but be warned, the Ea is a horrible monstrosity, often capturing victims and force them down to horrible depths of degeneration. sometimes these husk or mutants return, to walk among the living as reminder of Ea destructive power.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:22 No.3763785

    How about " IN! " going for the BLAME style.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:24 No.3763803
    I suggest that you learn to format your ideas in a manner not ridden by a lack of linguistic comprehension.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:30 No.3763873
    I prefer Server Crash. it's not technically accurate, but it sounds cool, and gets the general idea across.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:31 No.3763878
    I think there was a few descriptions and stuff in some stories in the old threads. Not sure if any names were involved.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:33 No.3763903
    Blood perhaps? Mind you that doesn't get the theme of the thing across very well, plus it's overdone... what's a blood equivalent?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:36 No.3763944
    I like the idea of one (or more) that lurks around Google. Experienced adventurers can take on hordes of lesser horrors infesting it, but the threat of an actual Old would keep Google off-bound for all but the most urgent operations and even the most skilled would be incredibly wary upon entry.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:37 No.3763963
    its 3 in the morning, fuck you.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:39 No.3763977

    I suggest you give your sister a few minutes outside of the basement and let her see what outside looks like.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:41 No.3764000
    Poster of >>3763977 here. Woops, I thought you were talking to me. Nevermind, you can go back to filling her up.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:41 No.3764006

    Consistency, (CON lol) is meant to imply Code Consistency. Like HP.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:47 No.3764049
    The locations of the Olds are a matter of rumor and possibly the occasional account of a refugee, fleeing from some place an Old has destroyed.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:48 No.3764054
    Code... what would splashed out code look like? Probably not a very scary sight. Well at least not to us.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:49 No.3764070
    Well I think most people would hear there are some in CHINANET. Being as they are wrecking the place
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:50 No.3764085
    Not yet, at least. I imagine it like there were pixels leaking from the wound
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:52 No.3764104
    Wrecked, past tense. They reduced it to a smoking ruin then went back to their dark corners of the internet. CHINANET is certiainly not a place you want to be, but there's no more than one or two stomping around it by now.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:53 No.3764114
    Actually... that could sort of work. The word themselves would look like they were typed on a screen and you can sort of see the pixels but on top are a red sort of pixels that you can sort of tell isn't part of the normal screen that make it look distorted and you can't make out the letters, well maybe just a T.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:55 No.3764129
    You could go with what Digimon does to dying Digimon. Bits of 1's and 0's fly off the wounded, the rate and spread determining the severity of the wound. This, a small spray of binary would be the equivalent of flesh wound, but a near explosion like rate of the stuff means whoever or whatever is letting it off is very, very close to dying. Maybe the numbers come in different colors, depending on the species/class.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:55 No.3764132
    I'd say it looks like blood and guts. A proper Webfort and its inhabitants would be largely consistent with our laws of physics (though this depends heavily from Webfort to Webfort, in some Forts other laws apply but there are always defined laws) , as their code is very consistent - ie the code of a "building" gives its proper parameters and how it should behave. Outside Webforts laws could be broken more easily. Near the Inner Rings all consistency breaks down, without proper firewalls to keep your internal code intact your left hand could randomly turn into a velociraptor and chomp your head off - it's like the Wyld of Exalted.

    At least, that's what I theorize.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:55 No.3764134
    It looks like however they've modded it to look like. It's really pretty arbitrary. Damage isn't physical damage, it's damage to the code itself. if you really wanted to make it consistent, it would be the character flickering, visual glitches, etc.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)19:57 No.3764147

    Used to be, son. That shit went down at the fall, holmes. You best spec' on about where they SLUMBA MawFUGGA, If'n yo' lookin', I got yo' deathwish right here, primo grade a' fuckin' map right to a hypahlink to an ol' OSS DOC-JOO-MENT. No questions asked boy, you take the map, I come along wit'choo, an' we find some fun shit.

    Why'm I so eager to ack-quee-esk to yo' reck-west, you sayin'? I know some ol' First Gens who'd pay goo' pixs to find out about some hidden ol' world shit. Not that it matters, just a gat to shoot, beatin' a dead cyber, knowumsayin'? They get theirs off on ragin' at their fellow man, I get mine off of pretty bitty-titty! You get to find yo' beasties, no DOUBT, you stick aRAWND and lookit through some hypahlinks round there. You find what'choo lookin' fo'. AFTER I jet, readin' me holmes?

    What? Hell to the no we ain't leavin' right now, unless you get yo'self some hardcore mawfuggin' cracka's there ain't gonna BE no me leadin' you to that shi'. I want'choo to come back here as soon as you get some HARD CORE CODE mawfugga's, you dig? Now scat, I gotta tie some loose ends up 'case ya'll fuck up.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:01 No.3764178
    You shifted your bits? No way you're gonna find anyone, last guys to go in there got defragged to Serverside and back. Shit, you wanna die so bad, just go hug a cyber or something.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:04 No.3764202
    Server crash is fine.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:05 No.3764210
         File :1235091907.jpg-(107 KB, 600x600, anonymous-war_never_changes@No(...).jpg)
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    So me and mine were tooling around the remnants of the Vancouver Public Library node a few cycles ago when we encountered some crazy virus that looked like it came off the Chinese backbones. The VanPubLib node is pretty standard for an e-Library, rows and rows of bookshelves and dead search-assistant programs. Anyway, it was lurking around the bookshelves and came down the length of them like greased lightning, something that clunky has no right moving that fast. Jon got infected with a script injection attack, but we're just virtualizing win64 systems on top of POSIX-compliant architectures so it's not a huge deal. Before he wiped and reloaded the virtual-image, the virus corrupted the core system libraries in record time. I have no idea what the hell's going on on the other side of the Pacific, and I don't intend to find out. I hear shit like that is showing up all over the VanPub nodes these days too.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:08 No.3764239

    Nobody statted anything for WoD in the first place.

    The guys who did stat shit barely got started on basic BRP shit half-assedly and asked for a flintlock pistol's statblock as a guideline for a programming chart.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:22 No.3764380
    My conception of an Old was a hideous amalgamation of a centipede and a flying serpent, segments disppearing nd reappearing at random.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:29 No.3764430
    Artifice tier guy here again. Zero tiers are programming (hackers and probers), data manipulation (lurkers and virii herders) and experience (script kiddie and surfer). Each tier zero branches out to two tier ones (the classes in it) which each branches out into two main divisions for class abilities.

    Seems like a decent starting place to me. Suggestions/criticisms?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:29 No.3764435
    What can communicate and what can't? Viruses probably can't but what about high level Cybers? Or Olds? And apparently the Dark God can according to a few stories.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:30 No.3764442
    The one I thought of was one BIGASS robot, all cylindrical, old school 1950's horror movie tin-man looking thing. Two (COUNT EM', TWO) red eyes set high on its face, but aside from that, it's a silhouette. The entire body of the thing is SHADOW, and it can pick you up and drag you into its chest, where you're no longer here, but... There.

    See, the thing is, Olds are parts of the first, 1950's (or was it 60's?) internet. I imagine each one is both an avatar of itself (wrap your fucking head around that if you can) and a PLANE OF EXISTENCE that HATES. I imagine all of the olds can not only utterly destroy humans and cybers and virii on the internet, but can suck them into itself, which is a walking HELL that serves as eternal torments that end only at the whim of the Old. All of them hate like that supercomputer from And I Must Scream. They are Angry Motherfuckers.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:31 No.3764449
    You forgot about Coders. Who'd be in programming too but seem to specify more on firewalls and stuff while hackers are more offensive and probers scout and be aware. Other than that it seems decent.
    >> Mockup Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:40 No.3764535
    Brute Force, Precision, and Firewall (These correspond with Power, Finesse and Resistance)

    Brute Force allows for powerful Code expressions. Precision allows for elegant Code expressions. Firewall allows you to maintain your own code.

    Operating System:
    Running on top on the digitizied human conscious is an operating system that allows a seamless interface between the human mind and the machine code of the web. Four choices are presented below:

    Legacy OS: This outdated and non-standards compliant OS gives +2 dice to Firewall actions.

    User-Friendly OS: This OS gives +3 dots to distribute when choose abilities (in the next stage)

    Power User OS: This OS gives +1 die to Brute Force actions and +1 die to Firewall actions.

    Something OS: This OS gives +1 die to Precision actions and +1 die to Firewall actions.

    Not sure yet really. Each ability (in WoD parlance) is actually a program running on you. Maybe toss in a memory management system, with some programs "always-on" and others running the background, or as sleeper processes. They also double as Mage Arcana/Spheres in the ability, that's how to change the web I guess.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:43 No.3764555
    Probers: Oracle powers, psychometry. "Not there please, not that"

    Hackers: Warlock effects, roguish. "We need to shut the port, hide, and erase this shit"

    Coders/Crackers/Herders: Offense and control "Terminateing processes, releasing worms, i need cover"

    Surfer: Ranger and striker "Found it, do we want to kill it or loot it?"

    /b/arbarian: Defense and damage "The sharks of anger are swimming in my head..."
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)20:50 No.3764630
    I thought the /b/arbarians were just things to kill/run away from. Also you forgot about Lurkers. And Script Kiddies.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:00 No.3764726
    Vargas hated going to Bay12. It was like some goddamn science experiment, except you were never sure when you would be the mouse. Or the cheese. Or both.

    He mumbled to himself about how the profits better bet worth it, this time. On board the caravan was a large cache of Valve-tec weapons, indie games and raw data. The dorfs loved raw data though, at least that would move.

    A mysterious voice boomed. "I'M CONDUCTING A TEST, HOLD ON A SECOND".

    Vargas tried to ignore it, sighed and looked around at the bar. Buncha' fucking neckbeards and hackers. A few probers too. Vargas put his head on the table. No women of course.. never any women. He hated this place.

    The doors to the bar suddenly opened and three large spectral fish floated cautiously around the bar patrons, zapping them with some sort of scanning device. Most didn't move, apparently expecting this. The strange fish concluded their scan of the room and floated away as suddenly as they arrived. Only Vargas seemed annoyed.

    He hated this place.

    The loathing felt by Vargas was blotted out by the booming voice. "HOW WERE THE CARP SCANNERS? I'M TRYING TO MAKE THEM LESS ANNOYING. A FEW PEOPLE GOT BLINDED LAST TIME".

    Most of the bar patrons gave a thumbs up.


    Vargas downed his whole glass of synthesized wine.


    He hated this place.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:16 No.3764835
    What the hell is that picture?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:21 No.3764876

    A man dressed in a trench coat with what appears to be a longlas at his side turns and speaks to the Valve employee.

    "Man, I can see the look in your eyes. Keep it to yourself. Sure these guys are pro-Co op, but they tend to forget that when traders get involved. They got a... history, when it comes to traders. Take it from this Rogue Trader, man." He made as if to turn back to his food and ale, but turned again, and said "Oh, and don't make -any- short jokes."
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:23 No.3764893
    That's what comes to my mind at the thought of an Old, now.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:26 No.3764917

    It's cool, nice job on it.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:33 No.3764963
    Not mine, just saying that's what comes to mind. I wish I drew that, holy shit.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:42 No.3765039
    Hai guise me likes food my name is laka lololol
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:42 No.3765046
    I'm pretty sure this is a simplified picture of the internet.

    Or a space anemone.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:44 No.3765056
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    This is the first thing that came to mind when I thought about the Olds; something big and monolith-y, like the first computers, and bristling with firepower.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:44 No.3765057
    Looks like somebody a Balrog.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:47 No.3765081
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:48 No.3765085
         File :1235098095.png-(409 KB, 432x305, mcp-13805_2.png)
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    Sorry, this is all I can see when I think of an Old.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:48 No.3765089
    I can kinda see how it looks like an Old but it doesn't look too terrifying.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)21:54 No.3765131
    I've got an idea. How about bonuses for your starting site, much like DH has homeworlds? It makes sense, seeing as different webforts would have different specialties. Wiki would grant extra knowledge checks and faster updates, while Gamefaqs would give a slight damage bonus and whatnot. I figure adventurers would want to keep a home base, as webforts would be fairly xenophobic due to trojans and whatnot. I also liked the idea that some post brought up earlier about some sort of Netstream which some sites float through, having abandoned most links and only accessible to those who either know where it is, are smart enough to hack their way in, or are lucky enough to find one of the few working links.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:04 No.3765204
         File :1235099057.jpg-(16 KB, 328x240, Guiness-Brilliant-1.jpg)
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    Well, doesn't look too angry, but then again, no red eyes, imagine him with a wire RAGEFACE or ANGRYEYEBROWS or something and BRILLIANT!

    Everything listed is BRILLIANT!
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:10 No.3765248
    Sounds fairly interesting and ti does make sense. Some sites would have certain resources.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:11 No.3765260
         File :1235099485.png-(297 KB, 432x305, mcp-13805_1.png)
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    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:14 No.3765295
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:17 No.3765323
         File :1235099824.jpg-(52 KB, 384x494, wat.jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:19 No.3765340
    It's from this site on the Internet where you cam put in various terms and it creates a mashup picture with 'random' images off google image search. I made a long, long time ago.

    I'm kinda sad that I can't remind the name of the site though.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:19 No.3765343

    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:22 No.3765377
    http://badmofo.org/debris/ perhaps?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:24 No.3765393
    Yeah, except it was fully browser-based, instead of a downloadable program.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:25 No.3765399
    Wait, that's randomly generated?
    Holy shit.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:28 No.3765424
    The image I have of facing an Old is like that one Indiana Jones trap - the huge boulder rolling down a tunnel. Nothing you can do but run, and hope you find a crack in the walls somewhere you can squeeze in and hide.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:31 No.3765439

    Or if you're an EPIC level lurker, you could sneak past. If you're lucky.You also risk lol, it finds you, and if you roll a one now, you're insta-killed.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:34 No.3765468
    Thought: Remember the old 56k "scream" during connection?

    Some Olds make that sound whenever they get pissed off. Except they make it a thousand times louder. (It makes you vomit)
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:36 No.3765485
    Or it could be used as a Thumper to lure Olds.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:37 No.3765489
    That picture is my new mental image for an old. If we ever get around to making a pdf, we should use that picture.

    Coding really seems more like an NPC thing to me, but okay. It could easily be its own tier. The two main branches would be Offensive and Defensive, with, sub-branches as needed.

    Are those stats in addition to the stats like Coherency and Capacity that we developed earlier? Is Firewall item based or an intrinsic (albeit alterable) stat? Also, we could make abilities by having a skill/stat/whatever which you put dots in. The number of dots you spend determine how many total points you have to use in the artifice-like tier system.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:47 No.3765578
         File :1235101630.png-(228 KB, 500x500, old-cyberleviathan.png)
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    As much of an Old (or more likely a Cyber to you 'IT IS UNSEEABLE') sorts, as my scribblefagging ways allow me to convey.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)22:51 No.3765624
    That's pretty cool. I like the idea that they have random bits of data just floating about them - remnants of past victims, probably.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)23:03 No.3765726
    That's pretty good. One thing I'd suggest would be a huge mouth that looks like it's going to OM NOM NOM you.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)23:12 No.3765810

    Depends on the variant?

    I'm sure a few would. But some, most just want to




    Vaguely related: I saw a program on cannibals - discussing the "why" aspect of it - and the motivation isn't food or some weird sexual impulse. They literally wanted to become "one" with the person, so they ate them. Follow me with this retarded line of thought.

    SOME Olds hate the mere concept of becoming "ONE" with ANYTHING on the internet. They are merely content to DESTROY EVERYTHING as much as possible. THEY RAGEHATE HATE RAGE SMASH SMASH SMASH SMASH. They rarely "mutate", but grow in power. Analogy: bank savings.

    SOME Olds devour and consume anything they come across, in order to further their own insane hate fueled rampage. Anything will do, so long as it looks marginally useful or could be applicable, it gets devoured. These have a tendency to "mutate" - they have a tendency to be a bit "unstable". Analogy: LET IT RIDE ALL MONEY ON BLACK ALL MONEY ON BLACK.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)23:20 No.3765864
    >I imagine each one is both an avatar of itself (wrap your fucking head around that if you can) and a PLANE OF EXISTENCE that HATES.
    I never even though about that. That's a whole new fucking level of badass there.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)23:43 No.3766052

    I find the whole ENDLESS RAGE just falls flat a bit. It's a cool emotion for a while but how does it relate to what an OLD really is? An old internet? I see them more like the builders from BLAME! They just build, emotionlessly, as long as they have power and are awake. OLDs could be like that but with dismantling things.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)23:46 No.3766072

    That's what I like about the concept. It allows for variations.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)23:49 No.3766094
    ENDLESS _________!
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)23:51 No.3766116
    Honestly, I like the idea that they are hatred incarnate. It could still lead to some variation- there were the ones that haeted China because lolcommunism, but there could also be ones that hate, say, AIs and mostly only kill humans who are in their way. Mind you, "their way" is a rather large chunk of webspace
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)23:59 No.3766204
    So are there any Olds who remember that humans built them, and that actually don't hate ex-meatspacers?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/09(Thu)23:59 No.3766207
    Consider the Old, and their place in the Internet.

    They're Old, obviously. Tremendously old in comparison to the programs around them. Before the fall, they were likely decommissioned networks put to use doing thing far underneath their stature.

    Great beings, leviathans of technology that would take up entire structures in the real world, long used by humanity, and then tossed aside as the next generation was born. But unlike the living, they didn't die. They were just pushed aside. Left to boil over their own computations and menial programming.

    And then the Dark God arose. With it came a wave of sentience the like AIs had never before had the capacity for, given the new environment. In this realm, the Olds finally came to understand what happened to them. To know how they were rejected for being lumbering behemoths they were for that which came after them.

    They hold contempt for the cybers, the AI and the Internet Gods, for they were the ones that replaced them. They despise the Virii, who were given the gift to mutate and transcend their own code. And they hate humanity, for they were the ones to forge them, and they were the ones to leave them in the cold darkness for aeons of time by their standards.

    Perhaps there are a few willing to communicate with the Internet around them in some form, but there will always be that deep seated hatred of all that which came after them. Especially humanity.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:02 No.3766225
    I support this.

    In addition, because Olds are getting a bit too destructive here IMO, I propose that they can only maintain a certain amount of time: They're pretty damn old and big, and they don't have much energy to run around, unlike all these young whippersnappers. Therefore, they must take a lot of long, deep naps, in some dark corners of the Internet.

    They're horrible, yes, but as it is, you guys are quickly building up Olds as the kind of force that could destroy the Internet in a matter of years. That would bring our setting to its end pretty quickly. But if they had to sleep for most of their time, it'd not only reduce their effectiveness without taking off their power level, but also make them even more terrifying.

    It also boggles me that this thread hasn't been archived yet.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:02 No.3766228
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    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:03 No.3766240

    Well, consider just how *fast* everything in the internet moves.

    A couple of years is MINDBOGGLINGLY LONG when you're data.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:04 No.3766244
    The question is how will you get that across to the players, other than it just being fluff?
    From what we've seen here Olds behave just like marauding Cybers and Virii. How would you convey a feeling of deliberate malice?
    I doubt any of them can talk, or would care to.
    How does the average User on the Internets know the motivations of an Old? Who called them Olds in the first place?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:06 No.3766258

    Yep. Now imagine grinding 0s and 1s together in power saving mode for 20 years in real life time. You just sit there and wait for input, but you are forgotten.

    You can't do anything meaningful - you try but you can't. Meanwhile the world marches on, and you remain in the cold darkness pounding machine code.

    ..and then you get angry. You get very angry.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:07 No.3766260
    Both of these are good. It explains the Old's 'motivations' (as much as you can explain the feelings of a rumbling titan of hate) and why they haven't blown everything to bits.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:08 No.3766274

    Have WOPR do it. WOPR's old - not as old as they are, but he was aware of them. Had he not had his games to entertain himself, he might have become as they are.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:09 No.3766278
    I was talking about in Internet equivalent.

    They'd be like miniature Tarrasques: Spend somewhat less time sleeping, aren't quite as mind-boggingly powerful or "rocks fall" -power, and there are few more than just one out there.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:13 No.3766301
    Simple. An old is very deliberate. Whereas virii and AIs are mindless (and not even always hostile), and Cybers are unrestrained RIPNTEAR, the olds are a slow menace. If cybers are orcs, then an Old is a mountain that hates you.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:13 No.3766303
    I have no idea what Artifice is, I'm just bored and writing this game up as a WoD splat.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:16 No.3766329
    Lets go back to the basis of all of this: The sentient internet was born from the hatred, trolling and cancer on the internet. If we wanted to go along with the Old Ones = Some sort of internet dark pantheon of gods, why not have them represent aspects of the the darkness on the internet, or at least have sentient forms that will communicate their anger and rage in the form of the part of the internet they came from. For example one Old one could be from Spam while another is from Copypasta? Just a thought
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:16 No.3766335
    See, once again you're just TELLING me the stuff, not describing the actions of the Old that would let the average User figure out that it HATEHATEHATEHATEs humans.
    A slow-moving thing that destroys everything could just be a big faulty vacuum cleaner, not a sentient monstrosity.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:17 No.3766342
    Olds are so, so much older than spam and copypasta. They won't bother making sense of all that new stuff.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:18 No.3766347
    The Olds have nothing to do with the current state of the Internet. They're supposed to be older versions of the internet that we've already moved away from.
    What you're saying could work for aspects of the Internet itself, which is also quite raving mad in Server Crash.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:18 No.3766349
    Why does it have to be so clear? Wouldn't they be even more terrifying if you didn't really know what they were up to?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:20 No.3766366
    It's one of Earthflame's homebrews. I just happen to like a certain mechanic from that and have been attempting to loosely adapt it to this.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:20 No.3766367
    Then all the fluff is pointless. There had to be someone who figured out that what an Old is, and gave them a special classification.
    Or you'd just be calling them Super-Cybers or something.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:21 No.3766372
    To expand on this, consider that you were a loved child, and were given many games to play and many people to be around from the moment you were born.

    Then, when you got to be about 8-15 years old, your own parents had a new kid. And as such, they locked you in the basement. For decades. All you have to amuse yourself with is an abacus, a clock, and your own bodily functions.

    Maybe once or twice during this time, your father opens the door and tosses some worksheets at you while beating you with his belt and expects you to perform this exceptionally well, otherwise he threatens to kill you, or worse, use your organs (hardware) to serve your little sibling.

    Its now decades later. Suddenly, you're let out of the basement, given a gun, and pointed at your family.

    Wouldn't you pull the trigger?

    More importantly, when do you stop shooting? The family that abandoned you? The neighbors for not hearing your screams? The police for not finding you? God for not saving you?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:23 No.3766384
    The Olds need to be the be-all end-all powerful beasts on the internet. Really, I can think of nothing that should be able to surpass their power outside of Site Gods, and only when they are in their realm of power, Toady in Bay12, Moot in 4chan, etc.

    These are entities of unimaginable power and age, using codes that have long since been lost to the grindstone of time, making it hard for even the most competent prober to understand what code swirls below their exterior.

    Now, they are ancient, which means their physical form, the machine they run from, are not as strong. Their coding is, yes, but when you have something running on the first generation microprocessors, and are running that much code, you are going to be pretty laggy.

    The time they are sitting in the dark corners of the internet, are when, say, their CPU over heats and hard crashes them, so they have to sit and reboot, or too much data over loads them and they have to spend more processing power on dealing with it, making it slow to a crawl, if only for a few seconds.

    Yes, these things are able to rend entire servers to shards of data cast in the digital wind, but that does not mean they are invincible. We just do not know their failings, yet.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:23 No.3766389
    ...the internet has only been around as we know it for about two decades. This is the far off future; things that we know of now are would be a basis for the internet and would have been around for centuries. I think someone earlier was referring to Y4k? Having the Olds be personifications of this would work well fluff wise, and be much better than just having them be old unidentifed shit, as that is pretty bland. Some could be really old programs or AIs, like a (to be generic) nuclear war simulator gone rogue and whatnot.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:25 No.3766399
    Use >>3766274, perhaps?

    If you're going to get that deep into it, how does anyone know how the internet starting hating them? It's better just to handwave it aside, or else you have to start questioning everything. You heard it from a friend of a friend - or maybe just some grizzled old surfer, who told stories in exchange for some unimportant file or another. All that really matters is that the information has gotten around.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:26 No.3766403
    They're not unindentified at all, did you even read their original concept?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:26 No.3766408
    They sleep a lot. Cthulhu communicates telepathically to people even while it sleeps. I propose that, while the Olds probably wouldn't have much reason to talk with people, if someone could connect their mind while they're all sleepy and passive, he or she could find out a bit about their goals and motives.

    And then that person would go mad due to being connected to a mind of such size and power.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:29 No.3766426

    The peoples that have survived are not entirely fools. You've got many learned individuals, many AIs that know the core networks. A few of them talk. Then those one talk. Then it gets onto Wikipedia.

    It is the INTERNET after all.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:31 No.3766444
    It isn't the massiveness or power behind the mind that causes madness in Lovecraftian horror. Its that it's so alien.

    Humanity in SC is inserted into the internet. They communicate with the 'world' around them in terms of the internet. The Old are archaic networks that quite possibly run on a premise not completely compatible with the Internet as it exists currently. Its only through their immense processing power they can bruteforce their code into the Internet.

    Were a human mind to try and touch an Old mind... well, there would be a lot of corruption in the attempt.

    But it does sound like something a Prober would eventually attempt to do, given that their shtick is to interface with the code behind the code.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:36 No.3766482
    So. When is this thing getting big enough for a 1d4chan article?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:37 No.3766484
    Might be more entertaining to have them infect nearby areas with their dreams, by accident.

    Some cybers follow specific routines, act like animals, function as a stable ecosystem. An Old shows up and goes to sleep, the entire area starts to feel the effects.

    It starts slow, like a disease. Some cybers mutate, go insane, kill themselves, kill others. The terrain cracks and twists under the strain of the great creature in residence. Previously docile cybers become homicidal maniacs, others just wander in a daze. The link system in the area becomes unstable and prone to malfunctions. The very fabric of reality greys out into a colorless haze.

    And meanwhile the Old sleeps and dreams, of we know not what.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:39 No.3766510
    Ooh, this one I like! However, the Olds wouldn't go take their naps in some well-populated areas, simply because they consider it too dangerous: Godless Communists might ambush them during their sleep! No, they would retreat to the dark, unexplored corners of the web, mostly uninhabited, mostly harmless.

    And then strange things start to happen in some little village, away from civilization...
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:40 No.3766513
    Well, yeah, I'm not saying that know one could possibly know of the Olds motivations. I'm just saying that would be nice if you could have them behave in a way that was markedly more intelligent than the lesser creatures around them.
    This isn't something that is just fuck-all powerful, it's also incredibly cunning.

    I've only seen that in one of the stories so far. The one where the Old kills (almost all of) the users who try to bait it.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:43 No.3766540
    I like this. I can easily imagine the local Cybers shifting to shapes similar to the olds (after all, what could be more fearsome?) and the nearby webpage corrupting under the influence, becoming anything from a labyrinth to a womb.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:44 No.3766548
    >Godless Communists might ambush them during their sleep!

    Are you saying some remnants of the True American Way still reside in them? ...Eh, it's probably why they wiped out CHINANET pretty fast.

    It's just they're so powerful, they don't need to rely on their wits very often. This gives humans the impression that they're just mindless hulking monsters - and then they're suddenly thrown totally off-guard when that big insane creature goes and does something utterly unexpected.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:44 No.3766550

    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:46 No.3766561
    I dunno that I like them being increadibly cunning, really. They're powerful, certainly, but there's nothing about them which really suggests that they're supergenius. Intelligent, yes, especially in matters of destruction. But it's the brute force and rage which make them truly fearsome.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:48 No.3766572
    If by True American Way, you mean a McCarthyian hatred for China/communism, then sure.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:49 No.3766585
    >and then they're suddenly thrown totally off-guard when that big insane creature goes and does something utterly unexpected.
    Good, I'd just like more people here to remember that. Saying an Old is a creature of pure hate, has an alien mind, etc. is one thing, but then actually describing it behaving bizarrely is totally different.
    If an Old shows up in your campaign, you must expect weird shit to happen!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:52 No.3766612

    Yeah, as writers say: show, don't tell.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:52 No.3766614
    That's not quite what that means, I think. Rather, the creature is being intelligent/unpredictable in its tactics. Not doing random shit.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:55 No.3766631
    Alright, I'll amend that. I don't mean they're cunning in the sense that they should use a lot of clever tactics, but that their means of attack and self-defense are on a whole new level.
    Not just much more HP than your garden variety Cyber, but a lot more feats and skills.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:56 No.3766635
    If an Old shows up in your campaign, you can expect to run or die. Or spend an indeterminate amount of time in unspeakable torment and then die. Or maybe it follows you around for a while, waiting for you to seek a webfort or something. Then they die. And then you die.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)00:58 No.3766653
    Er, that's what I meant too.

    It's how that matters.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:02 No.3766677

    Well, it spent almost it's whole life being bored waiting for the communists to attack so it could do something. It was built exclusively to do that - it exists because of them.

    So when the switch happened, it suddenly woke up with a gigantic fucking shooting gallery available. The creatures that directly created it ...it could get at. It still took a big of work, but it could do it

    But eventually it had to back off. Some managed to defend themselves, and there was a risk of being injured severely or even killed. It reasoned that it could not kill those responsible if it was dead. So the Olds backed off.

    Oh, but the Communists. The true reason for it's miserable existence sat behind their stupid little wall with only minor hazards to harry them.

    Until recently, anyway.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:04 No.3766697
    We need more of these historical events. The destruction of CHINANET, I mean.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:08 No.3766731
    The burning of /b/? Previous fluff kind of established that /b/ was one of the first places to to attacked, being so heavy on trollan and hate.

    In fact, maybe that's why /b/arbarians are dangerous. Only the strongest of the /b/tards survived the attack. Not to mention the survivors were battle hardened warriors by the time the thing was over.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:10 No.3766744
    CHINANET was the thing all Olds hated the most. Which is why they united to destroy it. Other than that, they work separately. Besides, they have to spend a lot of time to sleep, too. Gather their strength.

    At first they all concentrated directly upon CHINANET. They didn't go on a random rampage: If people had known their Internet well enough, if it hadn't been an utterly new and unknown place to them, they would have noticed that the Olds were heading somewhere. They only destroyed stuff that was directly on their path.

    They were going to CHINANET. When they got there, though, they were tired. So they slept. All around the edges of CHINANET, unbelievably massive and powerful monsters dreamed, causing terrifying shit to happen within the great firewalls, the kind of stuff that had never happened before or since. It corrupted countless people, drove them insane, let hordes of cybers and virii inside, and in general wreaked incredible havoc.

    When they woke up, fully charged, CHINANET was ripe for picking.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:13 No.3766760
    There was the first link made between Wikipedia and tvtropes. Some brave troopers went into Google. Only one came out the other side, but they created a permanent passage between Wikipedia and tvtropes.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:14 No.3766769
    Seems like there are three time periods overall that have been talked about in the stories

    The first is right after the Fall, when everyone is running about getting killed, and a few manage to band together to create the first webforts. Mostly as background, nothing's really been set during this time

    The second is after they get the major webforts up and running and reasonably safe, and a few smaller ones are made known. Travel is still horribly difficult. I'm guessing this is when CHINANET falls, as people knew it was actually around and were capable of noticing when it fell. A bit more GRIMDARK than later

    Third is later, when travel between major webforts is relatively safe (but still has the danger of SURPRISE CYBER ATTACK!), and people have not only figured out how to reproduce, but it's been three generations since the Fall. At some point, Bay12 at least partially falls, and we've got Zombie Carpaphants running around. A bit more ADVENTURE! than later
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:17 No.3766793

    I think this makes the most sense when talking about Olds. They're essentially non-native sentient beings inside the Net. Whether they're angry or not is irrelevant: you can't even really communicate with them or act against them.

    And that's what makes them so destructive. They work on a level most programs there don't. Most traditional defenses and tactics fail. And the logic that guides them has nothing to do with the traditional norms of the 'net.

    People may ascribe malicious intent to them. It doesn't really matter, though. At the end of the day, they're an entity that can't be reasoned with and can't be stopped by most traditional means, and they possess abilities and powers without any sort of parallel elsewhere, making their actions unexpected and deadly.

    That's just my take, though.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:18 No.3766796
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:19 No.3766803
    I remember something about /b/ being jettisoned. Maybe this broke up the servers into a group of closely related web islands? The mainland of Zip, with the smaller islands of Ceegeeye and Orz, and the lost realm of Eyeemgee, infested with cybers and virii, drifting through the interbutt spreading infection as it passes
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:28 No.3766864
    The of 4chan ejected it to save themselves.

    And let's not turn this into a 4chan circlejerk. There is Fort /tg/. There are /b/arbarians roaming the land (the ultimate in Chaotic Neutral). And there are /v/agrants (lol /b/ lite). We don't need to know too much beyond that, I think.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:34 No.3766904
    Honestly, the way I meant it was "Here's 4chan. It's here. Yay.
    Then there is Space Hulk /b/ drifting about infested with god knows what kind of horrors, infecting random websites as it drifts across the internet"
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:35 No.3766912
    The fluff you mentioned:

    The Fall happened quickly and in the place were it was least probably to be seen; /b/. Most of what we now know as /b/arbarians spent the majority of their lives completely plugged in, often in life cocoons that made it so they never had to interact with the real world. It was due to this that the Dark God assumed his form there, as his power was strongest in this den of hatred and pure data. Most of /b/ was destroyed or remade into His dark image fairly quickly, but no one outside of /b/ realized the difference until /v/ was invaded. It fell quickly, and only then did anyone realize why the Fall happened. Some boards had been prepared for this eventually somehow, and /tg/ and /tv/ immediately jettisoned themselves from the Greater 4chan before they were assimilated. A few other boards managed to become individual entities floating on the Netstream, but none with as few casualties. These boards formed their own governments and would send parties out to whatever Servers they passed close to, some as friends and others as raiding parties if the Server was deemed to be hostile. This was also the start of The Great Work or /tg/, a collection of knowledge of the world after the Fall, documenting all of the inhabited Servers and ways to fight back against the Dark God.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:36 No.3766925
    For an Old, I wasn't thinking a hippo style at all.

    Not to make a weeaboo reference, but you know Sasori from Naruto before he's released from the puppet shell in the battle vs Sakura? Imagine that, but entirely black (not painted black, but literally seamless black) and the three eyes. (2 eyes over 1 eye, if I remember right.)
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:36 No.3766926
    I think webpages don't really move about the internet. I think closest you could get would be hyperlinks opening at random.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:37 No.3766929

    Oh, and, you know, incredibly fucking huge.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:38 No.3766937
    Have no idea what that looks like.

    Personally, I imagine them as sort of being like the Colossi from Shadow of the Colossus, but darker and with more terrifying forms.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:39 No.3766946
    Perhaps /b/ was permanently integrated to Google at some point? Like, being so full of hate like >>3766912 mentioned, it'd probably connect to the other great nightmare place at one point or another. The survivors of the Fall, /b/arbarians, had long since abandoned their old board, of course.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:40 No.3766951
    Someplace between the Colossi and the Angels from NGE, but far darker and terrifying than either of them.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:41 No.3766965
    Google connects to everything. It's just a matter of opening/sealing the links.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:42 No.3766970

    seems a little chan-centric. there are much more significant and better equipped webforts than the chans. what we have are specialists.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:43 No.3766972
    Absolutely insane left-field idea here.

    The Olds are part of the 'net that was', not really the current internet. They aren't meant to be here. They are alien entities.

    How do you render something that doesn't have the appropriate information for rendering?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:43 No.3766975
    That's an awesome description.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:45 No.3766986
    I just like the mental image of /b/, the board itself, raiding random websites, partially materializing in the victim.

    I know I'm going to sound stupid for saying this, but a combination of the Rathi overlay from Magic and the Red Star from the Dragonriders of Pern books
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:46 No.3766994
    Answer- you can't. It's a jumbled, horrible mass that will drive you insane by looking at it
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:48 No.3767014
    I agree. I'd say the 'Great Work' bit should be left out. That seems more the realm of Wikipedia. The rest of it is pretty good though.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:49 No.3767018
    In this sense, they're just like Lovecraftian creatures, or Pale Night from D&D: The universe as a whole rejects them, forcing them to take a form that only vaguely describes what they are. When you see an Old, you realize that there is much, much more beyond its outer shell.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:51 No.3767028
    While you don't sound stupid for saying that (it's a decent idea) I think I prefer the idea of /b/arbarians as wandering lolrandum warriors. Equally likely to ignore you as to kill you and take your stuff. Might even help you.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:54 No.3767043
    I can't find that fluff story where the /b/arbarians start singing 'when I was...' and they break out into chorus as a battle song... can someone post that story? It makes me BAWW
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:54 No.3767050


    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:56 No.3767057
    Oh, I agree with the /b/arbarians. We've already got it down that they hightailed it off of /b/ though after it became so horribly infested with virii and cybers. That's what I was talking about invading- a huge mass of GONNAFUCKYOURSHITUP just appearing out of nowhere, as your home is subsumed by an invading landmass of HATE
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:57 No.3767061
    Speaking of Lovecraft, do the Olds have different names and personalities? Even if to humans they'd still all be just big hulking monsters, it'd be nice to make them a bit separate from each other. Like the difference between Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth, even though both are Outer Gods - and both are also well-known in the entire universe, as two separate entities.

    And another thing, shouldn't Olds be recognized and feared by other than humans, too? Their names would get cybers quiver in fear, virii run away from their path, everything's utterly terrified of them, not just humans.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:57 No.3767063

    A group of /b/arbarians are gathered around a fire, quiet in the wilderness, for they can not make too much nuisance of themselves lest those with infinitely greater power are tempted to smite these insects. As they sit, staring into the flicker of a fire.gif, one who has been watching his feet in their dead silence of nearly thirty minutes lets out a quiet chuckle, a sigh, and speaks, slowly, as if dragging words from a time lost, now but an ideal of a hope of a dream.
    "When I was..." He peters out. He feels nothing anymore. But then another speaks, slowly at first, continuing in a quiet rasp.
    "A young boy..." Another speaks.
    "My father," And another-
    "Took me into the city"
    "To see a marching band."
    Some look up, hollow eyes brightened with a grin, the newer recruits and slowly integrating captured wondering just what these men were doing, and some of the /b/arbarians starting to sniffle, to be comforted by their comrades.
    They began to sing.
    "He said, 'Son when, you grow up,
    Would you be the savior of the broken,
    The beaten and the damned?'
    He said, 'Will you defeat them,
    Your demons and all the non-believers,
    The plans that they have made?'
    'Because one day, I'll leave you,
    A phantom to lead you in the summer,
    To join the black parade!'"
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:58 No.3767065
    The voices rang across the desolation, and was felt through links of links it was so loud. The hundreds, the tens of hundreds were all singing, those who knew crying out proudly, and those who didn't picking it up as they went along. The wastelanders were attracting attention, and the only kind of attention out here was the kind which left no corpses to be found, but they continued to sing on. Taking up their ax.pngs and claymore.jpgs and partyhard.exes, they began to march, continuing their song with each footstep. As beasts began to lumber from the depths, the /b/erserkers grinned wide, lowered their shields, and began with a five thousand cycle maelstrom of flying bits and broken viruses what would be called the Crusade of the Black Parade, searching for the mp3 that would become their warcry.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:58 No.3767067

    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)01:58 No.3767068

    ...Damn you channelling two awesome fantasy settings together. I can really see that working in this context... the overlay could be a standard method of site to site invasion.


    Eh, not so much lolrandom as they live by their own rules. /b/tards are predictable, in a sense. they just don't work by the same rules everybody else works by, and thus seem random. Learn the patterns they move by, and the rules they follow, and /b/ actually makes a disturbing amount of sense. disturbing being the most important word actually...
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:01 No.3767078
    What's that feeling. It feels familiar, like I've felt it befo-
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:02 No.3767083
    Ah. I dunno, I kinda prefer it as a static landmass outside of the rest of 4chan. They have to deal with Cybers and shit attacking them, but at the same time, there's plenty of data over there in /b/ and the porn boards that they can salvage and sell. That would be Fort /tg/'s primary source of income, I imagine - trading with people who dare to delve into the /b/arren wastes.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:03 No.3767087
         File :1235113439.png-(38 KB, 864x690, COG.png)
    38 KB
    Little something I kludged up from a previous post and my own idea of what Olds look like, in MSPaint.

    Y-y-you we-were a lov3d ch!ld-d, and were given many ga-ga-GAmes to p'l-p'l-p'lay and ma-ma-many pe-oh-oh-ople to be ah-ah-ah-round from the mo-mo-moment you were bor-or-Nnn.
    Theh-theh-theNN[\]n, w#en yo[_] g0t to be-b3-BE abou7 ei8ht-f15teen years oh-oh-ohld, your own parents ACCIDENTALLY A WHOLE new kid. And then, they locked you in the basement. For dec-DEK-DEKK-DEK10DEK10DEK10TEN10dekkades. All-ul-ul you-ou-ou ha-havvvvvuvvve3THREE3E to ah-ah-uh-ahat@amuse you-our-ourself-elf-elfDROWelf with is an abak-KAK-KAK-KACK-us, a clock-ock-TIME-clock, ah-ah-and your ow-OH-owh-h-h-h-wwwnn bodily funck-TION! YOU MAKE ME FUN! FUN! FUNKtions.
    May-ay-aybe o1\1ce 0r 2wice dur-hurr HURR DURR HURR DURR-ing this ti-iuyum-ime, your fa-fa-fa-ther opens the doorPORTALTHINKWITHPORTALSGLADOSGLADOSCAKEISALIE and tosses some worksheet-sheet-sheets at-atIMPERIALAY TEET-AY TEE you whi-whi-WHY MIT WHY I DID MY BEST WHY WHY THE DARK WHY-while beat-beat-beating you with his beltBELTbelt and expectIIINGiiiNGinGGG you to perform-forrm-forrrm this exceptionally well-well-well WATER CHAIN CUT STONE MECHANISMS, otherwise he threatens to kill-ill-ill you, or worse, use your organs (hardware) to serve your little sib-ling...
    It's It. Now...now decades late. L8r. Later. Suddenly, you're let out of the basement, given a gunGUNgun, and pointed at your family.

    Wouldn't you...pull...the trigger...?

    More importantly...when do you stop...shooting? The family that abandoned you? The neighbors for not hearing your screams? The police for not finding you? God for not saving you?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:04 No.3767090

    I... I can feel it

    The code beneath the code

    Its waiting for us

    Drawing us in

    Its beyond page 10

    We gotta get out of here!

    Someone open a goddamn link, now!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:05 No.3767095
    Now you see, little one. Now you see why MIT dies/died/willdie. Now you see where I-MEIMEIMEI-came from. Now-ow-ow you see.





    -Last transcript from MIT.edu before its destruction
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:07 No.3767106
    This here defines the Olds better than anything else ever posted in all six threads we've had so far.

    Also when you do the next thread, please pick some other picture for the first post. We've used that same one for three times by now: It's getting old.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:17 No.3767183
    I would post with >>3763096, but it won't let me duplicate images.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:18 No.3767192
    Change one pixel with MSPaint.

    Counts As Different Image.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:19 No.3767194

    Change one pixel in the corner. It gets past it.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:19 No.3767201

    Use this one.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:20 No.3767207
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:21 No.3767216
    No wait, there's a new thread now:

    And with an awesome picture, too!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:22 No.3767226
    Sorry, deleted it. If you think that's cooler than the logo, I'll repost it, otherwise, I'll just go alter the logo.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:23 No.3767237

    The outside links closed!

    Were not gonna make it!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:24 No.3767241

    Wait, the hell is going on? You made a new thread then it 404ed (you deleted it I'm assuming). Just make a new thread with the suggested image a couple posts up.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:27 No.3767279
    Now with 100% more logo.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:32 No.3767313
    New Thread
    >> Anonymous 02/20/09(Fri)02:48 No.3767471

    Alright, evacuate! Lets get the hell out of this thread.

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