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    File :1233334095.jpg-(869 KB, 1159x1090, Relativity-escher.jpg)
    869 KB Philosopher: A game of Loss and Revelation Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)11:48 No.3564426  
    Joseph shoved his hand into his pocket, and groaned. Empty again. No cash, no change. He'd have to pay with his sodding credit card. Which, knowing his luck, would push his overdraft into the penalty zone.

    He signed as the waitress cleared the plates away, and ordered a cup of tea. He looked out the window of the service station and saw the rain pouring down. Still, pouring down, drenching everyone and everything. He reached up and felt his still damp hair, cursing his luck and knowing, just knowing, that he'd catch a fucking head cold.

    He gave the waitress a meaningless thank you as she delivered the tea, and took a sip from the cup. Too hot, too sweet, and with the mild taste of overdue milk. Just like every other cup of tea in every other motorway service station he'd ever been to.

    He looked down into the tea, and saw, with one eye, an unwarranted tear fall. The other saw a raindrop, outside the window, falling at exactly the same speed, in exactly the same space as the tear. When it hit the cup, it suddenly all became clear.

    This was it. Synchronous and maddening, infinite and void, this was It. The world of men, not gods. The world of will, not laws. God was dead. Man was free. No limitation was true, no control was absolute. In this universe of nothing and everything, choice and free will ruled supreme. He stood, raising his hands high in exultation, and screamed.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)11:48 No.3564427
    Not, however, in righteous joy or full understanding. In rising, he had dropped that cup of too hot, too sweet tea, and it had bounced off the uneven countertop in just the right way to spray the crotch of his jeans with boiling liquid. The scream was both due to that incredible physical pain, and a horrifying existential loss.

    The truth, which had so firmly fixed within his mind, drifted away, the anchor severed by the worldly distraction. He fell forward, sobbing, and attracting rather a few odd stares and a yell of "Man up, ya pussy!" from a burly scottish trucker walking across the cafe to the counter.

    He settle down, accepting a cloth from a waitress and dabbed pathetically at his now sore and damp crotch, accepting a new cup of tea, given without request, and rather brewed than the last cup. Sympathy perhaps? He sighed, reaching into a pocket and drawing out a twenty pound, which he placed on the table without thinking. It was only when he left the restaurant when he remembered he hadn't had any money earlier. He went to open his umbrella as he walked out into the rain, and just caught a thought that he could have sworn he'd forgotten his umbrella, or left it in the car... But he obviously hadn't, since it was here in his hand.

    And so, Joseph strode on, blissfully unaware, for now, that he was a latest in the line of the Anamnetics, the true philosophers, those who had seen the universal truth, and could reclaim it.

    Back in the cafe, the chef, who everyone thought was italian, but was actually of greek descent, found a number in an old notebook, a number he'd never thought he'd have to call. But his father had taught him well, and he knew the signs as well as anybody currently practicing the art. He tapped the keys, and spoke into the reciever "I have a message, for the Akademia..."
    >> Earthflames OP from last thread Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)11:50 No.3564435
    Hey /tg/, its me again. I'm still working on Mosaic, but as you've probably guessed by now, I enjoy distracting myself with the other random ideas I have along the way.

    This one is slightly odd, and it'll only really make sense, at first, to people who have read or listened to that most remarkable of books, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

    In the books, only presented in detail at a later stage but mention early on, is a girl called Fenchurch, who came to an incredible understanding of the universe and for one moment, really knew what was going on in the world. Then the planet got blown up. and then life continued, as normal.

    The idea behind the game is people who have experienced a similar revelation. They have seen the absolute universal truth. And, rather unfortunately, lost it again. And now they're trying to get it back.

    To their advantage, they have a very slight understanding which still sits with them. Its not really comprehensible, but it does let them pull interesting twists in the logic of the universe- For instance, Arthur Dents flying trick, in which one aims for the ground, and misses, and thereby achieves flight, simply by the action of becoming rather distracted while you are in the act of falling, thus tremendously confusing gravity.

    To their disadvantage, all the "Real" philosophers want them dead, as anyone with an absolute answer will almost certainly put them out of a job, while large numbers of government agents seem to want to abduct them, cut open their brain and see just what the hell has happened to them. They won't learn anything of course, but it might be of advantage to a certain pair of white mice...
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)11:50 No.3564438
    Link to previous thread: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/3552378/
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)11:51 No.3564446
    When will there be a rulebook and when can I play it?
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)11:52 No.3564452
    Fuck yes!
    My idea got more!
    I love you /tg/
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)11:53 No.3564460

    Its an Earthflame game, and with his current backlog, I'd guess two years until he actually finishes it, at his current rate. There'll probably be a PDF or rules .doc, which is his usual way.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)11:58 No.3564490
    Oh this is good.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)11:59 No.3564500
    So what's the agenda for today, gentlemen?
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)12:01 No.3564509
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)12:04 No.3564523



    Fine, I'll wait. Good games take time, and this looks like a hell of a lot of fun.
    >> Earthflame !98PcYIvlCI 01/30/09(Fri)12:07 No.3564540
    ...Wow, I didn't expect too see a Philosopher thread waiting for me when I clicked over to 4chan. Nice work /tg/.


    Well, all we have now is a rough concept. Basically, we need everything. Fluff, ideas for mechanics, possible systems we can rip off, even random bits of writefaggotry or arts to fill in the gaps (Vital in any nice looking PDF or doc)


    You are harsh, but this is true. However, this summer my work rate will increase massively, so you never know how much might just get accomplished.


    Glad to know people like it. If lots of people do, the game rises up my priorities list, and will get done sooner. If there's enough interest, this may well become my active project after I finish Mosaic.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)12:17 No.3564584
    Sometimes you get inspired. Inspiration is a fickle thing. It's a spark that starts a flame. Sometimes you get too inspired. When that tiny spark illuminates more than it shoul. You see the universe for how it really is....
    And then that spark is a roaring flame and you get burned.
    And you loose that illumination.
    But you remember what you saw.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)12:17 No.3564590
    Fuck, should b 'should'
    >> Chaotic Cleric 01/30/09(Fri)12:22 No.3564614
    The Hope Guru, a title given to Dr. Jiddu Rhamadesh by a daytime talkshow host six years ago, was casually signing books after giving his critically acclaimed talk: 'Reclaiming Hope: Finding Peace After A Passing' at the Hotel Radison in Los Angeles. The throng of supplicants hovers around him, as he takes books and inscribes them each with his name and a short thoughtful message, giving each of their owners a friendly smile.
    "I am so glad to have helped.", he says. "That is why I got into Guru-ing, you know.", he laughs. "I am but a channel through which hope passes.", prevents people from praising him for too long.

    But then, about halfway through the signing for a full minute, he stops talking. He nods and smiles, if not distractedly. He glances at his watch. He looks at the blank north wall for ten seconds as he signs a book, with just a sloppy signature and no unique message. And then suddenly he is back into full form, his teeth flashing whitely in a serene smile as he paraphrases a line from his third work, on sale in the lobby.

    This momentary distraction is because, during that minute, Dr. Jiddu Rhamadesh is in his home office on the beach in Sri Lanka, screaming into the telephone. "I don't CARE! FIND HIM! Do you realize what that boy could do to us?! TO ME?!? He's already past the Second Insoluble Quandary!" Here he looks out the window at his garden, the statues, the young wife with her firm body tending the garden. All the things his wealth and prosperity has brought him. He turns away, his voice starting to shake as if everything were already crumbling around him. "You WILL find him. If you cannot bring him to me, you WILL kill him."
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)12:23 No.3564624
    For powers, I've vaguely thought about West End Games' Star Wars RPG. Force powers are tied to Force skills (Control, Alter, Sense) which are on par with the character's attributes, but the character only gains them through innate talent or training. Non force sensitive people don't have these skills at all. Some powers are tied to multiple skills. The skills determine how effective the power is.

    Basically, replace Control, Alter, and Sense with the names of philosophical schools or concepts (hell, maybe Ethics, Metaphysics, and Epistemology) and tie powers to them.

    This doesn't rule out Belief/Clarity or Doubt, either.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)12:30 No.3564664

    But what about "free" philosophers, not trained in classic schools of thought? From where do those odd little incidental powers arise?
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)12:34 No.3564687
    If we use Ethics, Metaphysics, and Epistemology (or something like that), we can group all powers in these categories. If we want to, we can add "schooled" and/or "unschooled" tags to them.

    If each skill is a different school, then the unschooled might have a unique skill.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)12:35 No.3564692
    If this was a WoD book or fuckit its own game.. I'd play it. If I had money I'd even FUND it
    >> Earthflame !98PcYIvlCI 01/30/09(Fri)12:39 No.3564709

    All I need now is ideas. Let it stew in your mind, then pour it into this thread. Character concepts, example powers, adventures, enemies, organisations, or mere ponderings on the concept. Anything is good.

    My game design technique is like one of the traditional methods of candlemaking. Dip a string into molten wax, draw it out, let it harden, perhaps trim it a little, draw it out, and repeat. Eventually, you end up with a perfect, or near so, candle. Except, instead of string I dangle concepts, and rather than into wax I dangle it into the seething, molten mass of /tg/'s collective imaginations.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)12:55 No.3564801
    E, M, and E are just broad categories of philosophical ideas. They don't necessarily have to correlate with specific training in the field. The more I think about it, the more I think we don't really need this distinction between the trained and the untrained. If you really wanted to allow for non-philosophical sorts of powers, just add Physical Insights to the categories.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)12:58 No.3564825
    There was that one X-Files episode in which a psychic could write something like "police officer", "doctor", etc. on a piece of paper, tape it to his shirt, and anyone who saw the paper would see him as being one.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)12:59 No.3564837
    Should all of our intros be from Joseph point of view?
    >> Chaotic Cleric 01/30/09(Fri)12:59 No.3564838
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    Maybe have different skill progressions for schooled and unschooled?

    Schooled might progress in a linear fashion, where you progress along a set of tiers, and then when you get to the top of a tier (which could have between 3-5 levels), you can then branch out and start another set of tiers.

    Meanwhile, for the unschooled it's more free-form, allowing for greater flexibility at the cost of, well, higher cost?

    Maybe free-formers have more, but unreliable powers? Meanwhile; Schooled learners would have fewer-yet-stable abilities that are more limited in use?

    Here. Quick slap-dash Paint version. Left set of colored boxes are Schooled tiered progressions. Progresses like study guide.

    Meanwhile, the right set of circles is the free-form learning, which looks more like a concept-map.

    Incidentally, concept-map wouldn't be a bad name for your powers list. =P
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)13:02 No.3564851
    I love you man.
    Well why don't we all take Dent as an example for an unschooled? Hell, the entire series
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)13:09 No.3564897
    I feel like the skill/powers should all be independently designed. There's just too many possible insights. If there were broad, combinable aspects of each power, like for example Deconstruction or Perception Alteration, with different costs and benefits to each, we'd be able to accomodate that diversity.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)13:11 No.3564905
    Well what would Arthur's core Insight really be? Actually, maybe that's the distinction between the 'trained' and 'untrained' Anamnesics. The 'trained' know what their insight is, so their abilities are more focused on that, whereas the 'untrained' just have this sense that the universe is not quite what it seems.
    >> Chaotic Cleric 01/30/09(Fri)13:15 No.3564925
    Power ideas, based on a progression. Tags not necessary.

    "That only happens to other people." Passive Self-based protection. Bonuses to saving throws, defense.

    "This IS happening to other people." Active Self-based protection. Next attack on user damages another randomly-chosen person in the vicinity.

    "This happens to YOU!" Active Targeted Counter-attack. Attack on user inflicts damage on target of user's choice, ignores armor.

    "This must be my lucky day!" Utility. User can re-use one previous successful roll, if he's been keeping track. Roll log is erased and restarted after this power is used.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)13:17 No.3564943
    Well didn't he see the message from god?
    "We are sorry for the inconvience"
    Or something?
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)13:20 No.3564968
    If I recall, Fenchurch was more the basis for this than Arthur, but both got glimpses of the ultimate reality, after a fashion. Arthur had the Question locked in his brain, after all, combined with the galactic paranoia and the fact that reality seemed to always get very strange when he was around.
    >> Bearford !!LjfL/DDMpjv 01/30/09(Fri)13:26 No.3565007
    >found a number in an old notebook, a number he'd never thought he'd have to call.

    God damn it. When I read this line I thought "THE A-TEAM"

    Anyway, this sounds like a damn cool idea, I always enjoyed that 'episode' of the Hitchhikers Guide, even if it did depart from the interplanetary silliness of the former few.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)13:31 No.3565043
    I'd think that the unschooled would start with a single insight that may be something common like "water only comes to a boil when you aren't looking" and evolve until it's a complete philosophy like the schooled. Joe Smith used to be an accountant, now he's the High Advocate of Smithian Knowledge Theory.

    I like the idea of the unschooled's powers being freeform and based on aspect combinations, but we could go freeform OR predefined and structured with the schooled. Maybe the difference is that the schooled have bonus powers unique to their schools? Although, they'd have to be have some drawback, too.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)13:33 No.3565058

    If you're a schooled philosophers, you have less flexibility than the unschooled. They can branch their thoughts out almost infinitely, you have, by definition, closed certain paths off due to such petty things as logic and cohesion, which the unschooled may well ignore with impunity.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)13:40 No.3565113
    Damn them
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)13:45 No.3565141
    Or maybe all characters play as unschooled, while the schooled and real philosiphers are the opponents?
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)13:47 No.3565151

    heh, that'd be kinda funny. Only those who are not actively seeking truth have any chance of finding it.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)13:51 No.3565170
    Yet another reason why they're hunted.

    I am now imagining anamnetics fighting each other to the death over this.
    >> Chaotic Cleric 01/30/09(Fri)13:53 No.3565181
    The Institute for Smithian Knowledge could, in fact, be a player goal, I think. After all, what use is the knowledge unless it is put to use, afterall? Now, there's a difference between being 'told' what a given concept is, and truly understanding it as a.. er.. Ameneminic does. Amelmem... the PLAYERS.

    Anyway, any players skilled in writing or with the ability to broadcast their message would make them a bigger target for attacks by the philosophical underground.

    >Only those who are not actively seeking truth have any chance of finding it.

    Paradoxes like that are the basis for many enlightenment-seeking meditations. What is the sound of one hand clapping?

    What do you call paradoxes invented by Buddhists during rush hour?

    >> Chaotic Cleric 01/30/09(Fri)13:56 No.3565202
    Actually thinking about it, a koan-based power is needed. You posit a question without an answer, and then make some sort of ego/mind/spirit/belief based contest. Those who fail are puzzled. A critical failure causes them to overcontemplate and pass out. If the targets succeed and the user fails, he cannot help but contemplate this and and is puzzled. If EVERYONE rolls low, then everyone is stuck, but after a few minutes they all can't remember what they were doing beforehand.
    >> warwolt !!/kR8o789eh0 01/30/09(Fri)13:57 No.3565204
    I really suggest using WoD. Its ACTUALLY a good system, 'cept that personally I think most books are seriously meh. BUT, this is kinda cousin-to-mage'ish so I suppose using WoD for it would fit pretty good. Also, the whole "becoming a philosopher"-thing has alot in common with the mages as well. Its almost as if the philosophers should be considered Mages. Due to that I'd try to steer away from the concept of "universe-benders" and go for something a bit more original
    >> warwolt !!/kR8o789eh0 01/30/09(Fri)14:04 No.3565239
    Also.. something I realized. How the hell do you write campaigns for this setting? I mean, am I as a GM gonna toss together some mysterious phrase to let the players achieve in the end? 'cept for the "RUN AWAY FROM TAH OLDSCHOOL FOLK" I don't know if the emphasis should be on finding a truth. It should just be well... I don't fucking know.

    The more I think about it the closer it gets to Mage. I mean, the mages spend most of their fucking time trying to solve the "mysteries" eh? AND they got cool powers.

    Perhaps try to make it like this; A player have the ability to force their philosophies on other things. I can't really give a good example. But in a way, they don't just decide to bend something. Through a mindset or a belief they force something to bend to their will.

    Mages bend through spirit, Philosophers bend through thought?
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)14:07 No.3565257
    British philosofag and mathematician here... this is an interesting idea, but certain thoughts arise...

    Firstly, bing able to pick from several schools of philosophy is hard to manage. Lots of contradictions. It would be better to call it anti-realist, or subjectivist. Those bastards don't care about logic after all *shake fist*

    Secondly, an extension of the above - philosophies contradict. I'm assuming you're going with a WoD-style "nobody is really right but it works anyways" explanation to get around it by not explaining it. Otherwise you have to make judgements you probably can't make, and the whole thing won't work.

    Finally, you should consider maps of compatible schools. Certain things work together, like skeptical thought and any thought not based on absolutes (agnostic things especially). Think about the place of religious thought, cartesian stuff is fairly inseperable from it.

    In short, this would be complicated. However.... I'd say don't run it like a standard levelling up game. Instead, shift philosophies as you go. It prevents insta-win combinations which arise from instant mechanics, and looks more like standard patterns of philosophical development.
    >> warwolt !!/kR8o789eh0 01/30/09(Fri)14:09 No.3565265
    "The theory is illustrated by Socrates asking a slave boy questions about geometry. At first the boy gives the wrong answer; when this is pointed out to him, he is puzzled, but by asking questions Socrates is able to help him to reach the true answer. This is intended to show that, as the boy wasn't told the answer, he could only have reached the truth by recollecting what he had already known but forgotten."

    Hm.. perhaps part of the powers comes from gaining some kind of understanding of the universe back through questions or similar asked to one self? Of course, the answer or the question isn't the important but rather the line of thought.
    >> warwolt !!/kR8o789eh0 01/30/09(Fri)14:13 No.3565294
    I agree. The abilities one gain perhaps shouldn't be strict but tied to the philosophies right now? Or whatever the person is curently believeing (or have "learnt" through analysing the universe)

    OH! Gotcha! Instead of trying to figure out the WHOLE shit, instead of levels one gain deeper and deeper understanding of the everything. So its like floating levels.. its not a constant.
    >> warwolt !!/kR8o789eh0 01/30/09(Fri)14:40 No.3565502
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)14:44 No.3565538

    ...What the fuck is a bumb?
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)14:49 No.3565567
    And why is it fucking your mother?
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)14:52 No.3565592
    Shamelessly, no less.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)15:04 No.3565679
    Seconding compatibility and incompatibility considerations. That alone provides reasons for anamnetics to group together or be at odds without considering all of the people who already want to catch or kill them.

    Obviously a cross between a bum and a bomb. I believe all questions have been answered now.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)15:06 No.3565693
    hehehe, I can imagine some form of little fears style belief magic resurging. A woman who always believed a blanket protected her from everything, and with the power of the Insight, cowering beneath a blanket (or towel) is as good as sheltering in a nuclear bunker.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)15:35 No.3565817
    Come on /tg/, we got this thread to 200 posts a couple of days ago (or was it yesterday?). Have we run out of ideas already?
    >> KHORNE 01/30/09(Fri)15:41 No.3565852
    >> Bearford !!LjfL/DDMpjv 01/30/09(Fri)15:41 No.3565853
    Heres an idea. Since I imagine it would be hard to do a campaign of just running from scholars (hah). You could have bits where you... I don't know. Meditate/Dream/Use Drugs and try to regain the ultimate truth through introspection. This would take the form of explorations of a collective dreamworld.

    Just spitballing.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)15:59 No.3565949

    Woah, did I read what I think I read. Acidtrip-like adventures into the fucked up dreamscape that is you subconscious and the secrets of the universe? OH YEAH GIV IT TO ME.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)16:02 No.3565965

    The dreamscape would be populated by concepts, half-truths and obscure ideas. The more the Anamnetic uses his powers in the real world, the more detritus clogs his minds path towards the absolute truth.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)16:07 No.3565988
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    So we get some kind of balancing up the stuff. The LEAST we could do is using the dreamscapes as some kind of anchor for the powers you have.. like a manapool or something (only not that simple). What I mean is, even if you don't have to play INSIDE the dreamscape you still need to enter it to regain some powers. Perhaps the powers are different aspects of the dreamscapes? Thus using them will slowly make them fade away from the dreamscape, changing the dreamscape somehow forcing you to "re-chart" your dreamscape.

    Also, I keep imagining the dreamscapes as Reutersvärd's work.. or M.C Escher
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)16:10 No.3566005
    Kinda like arcadia?
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)16:20 No.3566072
    >>3565257 here....


    A better image for a philosophical dreamworld would be lovecraftian dream sequences. Concepts made reality, vast ideologies uncaring of existence crushing incompatible dogmas at a glance. But similarly a whole host of random beliefs. Most people don't think anything rigorous, and might generate irrational gremlins to torment people. The popular philosophers may have armies of such ill-armed tools. Plus, flying cats.

    And one final thing... some kind of instant brain-explosion mechanic to anyone who ever uses "begging the question" when they mean that it raises the question. It's a technical term, dammit, and it makes me want to stab people.

    Another idea in terms of a morality system treating it as WoD-like.... each section might have its own series of actions which raise or lower it. To take an idea, a Kantian might lose morality for putting consequences above principles. Much like the different paths in Vampire, but with more like the inhumanity of Promethean at the bottom end, when you become a creature which doesn't resemble any reasoning.... but retains your powers.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)16:24 No.3566104
    Just throwing out some ideas...

    If you want something else to drive the players, what if you make the sudden enlightenment of the players related to a singular event?

    Imagine, one days, with no warning, several thousand people around the world simultaneously catch a glimpse of the ultimate truth, only to lose it an instant later. Maybe it was just chance, maybe the truth was only really visible for an instant, or maybe the collective force of their understanding destroyed it before it could manifest itself fully.

    Either way, the vision of truth that each of these people saw is filtered by their own mind, and what they're left with is their own incomplete, but still somewhat sound, vision of the way the world truly works. And each wants to be the first to complete their "theory".

    System-wise, make it sort of like old mage-- a person has their own "Theory", which could be classified roughly into schools of thought but which would be mostly free-form. In order to "use" their theory, the player would simply have to come up with how it applies in a particular situation-- effectively, they create such a convincing reason for a thing to happen that there's no possible way that it cannot.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:11 No.3567157
    Dudes, I'm fucking high, and this idea sounds awesome. Keep it up!
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:13 No.3567168
    >If you want something else to drive the players, what if you make the sudden enlightenment of the players related to a singular event?

    >Imagine, one days, with no warning, several thousand people around the world simultaneously catch a glimpse of the ultimate truth, only to lose it an instant later.

    R'lyeh rose for a moment, then sank.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:16 No.3567176
    Except, the dreamscape would be the visualising of ideals, thoughts and philosophies.. not just "lol fairytaleland"
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:19 No.3567188
    Wait what? What's this shit about schooled philosophers? The entire point was that the PCs grasp a "fundamental truth" based in a nonsensical train of thought that allows them to manipulate reality in specific ways. People who know shit about ACTUAL logic and philosophy are trying to kill them for furthering such ridiculous and flawed ideas.

    Also I thought we were calling them Glimpsers or Anamnesics. Philosophers are the enemy.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:24 No.3567201

    The thing is, the Truth that the Anamnetic has seen cannot be expressed in words. Trying to rationalize or formalize it, make concepts, theories, ideologies, whatever, out of it just takes you further away from it. The Dreamscape represents this: the different ideas and concepts are obstacles that interfere with your search to return to the Truth, the source of your insight. Mazes in which you lose yourself, ladders you place on the walls of a castle to scale it and get to the inside, only you find that you're raising the ladders not onto a wall, but on other ladders. And the higher they rise, the harder you fall. Only when you stop trying to understand or believe, grasp or possess it, can you approach it.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:33 No.3567247
    So basicly the dreamscapes are the clouds before the sun, where the sun is the truth? And searching for it just makes it harder.. so its a bit like being stuck in quicksand
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:34 No.3567256

    aha. The only way for an Anamnetic to draw powers is to use the dreamscape, which will further prevent the Anamnetic to reach the truth.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:37 No.3567273

    In the dreamscape, your ideas solidify and take form. Your Anamnetic abilities become more defined and more powerful. But as they become more developed, the glimpse of truth that you had dims, obscured by your interpretations.

    Basically, the stronger your abilities, the more fragile your connection becomes to their source, which adds an element of balance.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:38 No.3567274
    And having them constantly hunted will give the Anamnetics a reason to keep drawing those powers.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:41 No.3567285

    Exactly. It's not just that Anamnetics are hunted: their human nature drives them to try to understand their abilities, to control them and map them out. But the more powerful your abilities are, the less you remember how to get back to the Truth, until one day you wake up and you have no idea anymore, no trace of it left, and your powers are gone without even a memory residue remaining. This is Amnesia, the flip side of Anamnesis.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:55 No.3567359
    come on people you're thinking about this wrong.

    This isn't a case of breaking the rules which govern reality.

    It just so happens that everyone else is playing by the WRONG rules, and you just discovered a chunk of the errata...
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)19:56 No.3567367
    Hey, Hey, I just had a wonderful revelation.

    You're a load of pretentious faggots.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)20:11 No.3567477

    Fucking universe keeping us from fucking understanding it with their smart-ass system to keep us from understanding the truth.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)20:13 No.3567486
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    FAQ reality
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)20:23 No.3567558
    This. If it's about breaking the rules, you're playing Unknown Armies. If it's about making your own rules, its Mage.

    This is about following the rules, except you just found a few pages of the owners manual that noone else knows about.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)20:45 No.3567738

    lol, he already knew the answers, assuming slave boys cannot think for themselves.
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)21:22 No.3568008
    Cogito Ergo Bump
    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)22:40 No.3568619
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    >> Anonymous 01/30/09(Fri)23:39 No.3569015
    I will be happy if this thread survives for a second wave of discussion.
    >> Chaotic Cleric 01/31/09(Sat)00:10 No.3569234
    Just got off work. Reading...

    Okay. I personally like the idea of a dreamworld, although having a different name for it and saying that it's reachable via different means (hallucinations, meditation, regular sleep, deep prayer, counting backwards from 88 in base 9 by 2's) would make it better.

    Mostly because it opens up some amazing possibilities for sessions. You were on the run last game, out of juice since you had to walk through a wall and using '#s = 0 meaning' to give your gun unlimited bullets. You start off the game by having the homeless dude in the party find a drug dealer so you can all take a hit of the local flavor in the comfort and safety of an abandoned subway car and then as the fumes overwhelm your synapses you yawn and...

    "When you open your eyes you find yourselves heavy with chains woven from almost husks, sitting in a circle at the foot of the mountain. The man with the singing teeth is quietly pulling hats from his ear in the corner. Meanwhile, Freud writes all this down with a cigar, while smoking a broomstick, sitting down on a giant log with two boulders at one end. Behind the mountain, the sun is still setting."
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)04:06 No.3570748
    Do I have to bump this shit for it to live? I mean wtf 9th page
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)04:11 No.3570782
    And this actually fucking gives some powers... I must say I REALLY like this idea.. quite a fucking lot. But, name.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)04:24 No.3570848
    I support this distinction.

    Also, if your suggestion involves some paradox on behalf of the seekers, its probably a good one.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)04:24 No.3570851
    Truth realm?
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)04:35 No.3570906
    Dreamworld seems pretty meh to me.

    A lot of the discussion in this thread seems to cast the Anamnetics as philosophers to the core. However, I believe the point was that it WASN'T the philosophically inclined that got the message. It was the random guy just going about his daily business who suddenly has a revelation (and loses it, of course).

    I also still like the idea that the players are racing to recover the truth - and when they find it, the universe disappears and is promptly replaced by something even more bizarre.
    >> Mr. Butlertron, the Robot Butler 01/31/09(Sat)04:36 No.3570922
    How about the Akashic Records? or the Akashic Erratum?
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)04:58 No.3571046
    I think you're really going to need multiple names, just like the Anamnesics.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)04:59 No.3571051
    wait wat. The whole thing is that the players CAN'T find the truth. As soon as the human brain grasps the truth it starts to try and map it out and understand it, which through this process makes the brain forget the truth because it clogged it up.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:03 No.3571063

    That's one theory. Another theory is that when you find the truth, the universe is replaced with an even stranger one. In any case, there's no way to find out. It's up to the individual Anamnetic to choose what to believe in.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:03 No.3571066
    Where'd that come from? The original concept was like Hitchhiker's - a moment of inspiration interrupted, like by the coffee in the OP.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:06 No.3571078

    I think we can fit both in. There should be several ways in which Anamnetics are made. And several ways to structure a campaign with them.

    Also, if this were a White Wolf game, it would be called Anamnetic: The Revelation.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:09 No.3571106
    Read the whole thread. You only get a glimpse of the truth. You'll forget it pretty soon, just like I explained. Its because man CANNOT have the truth (atleast by the example given higher up)..

    But I like the idea about there being a lot of different ideas/philosophise about what happens when you gain the truth. Perhaps these would be the different schools? As in, not our traditional ones but what people believe happen when you reach the truth. This would then have an impact on how the stuff in the dreamscape materialize
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:10 No.3571111
    I suppose the concept could be reworked into something serious with minimal effort. I like the sort of silly feel it originally had though.

    Anyways, mechanics-wise. The way I see it working best is having 'talents' or powers or what not that you pick up as your Belief increases. A point buy sort of thing. The abilities shouldn't have any inherent attachment to a given philosophy; that makes it easier to customize things and also allows you to move away from established philosophies.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:15 No.3571135
    I'm aware you only get a glimpse of the truth. I've read this thread as well as participated in the last couple of threads, which is where the stuff I said came from.

    The obvious motivation for the players (other than avoiding the philosopher's assassination attempts and such) is to regain the truth. If they can't ever get the truth, that leaves with not much to do, doesn't it?
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:18 No.3571154

    The motivaton isn't just to regain the truth. It's also, primarily I'd say, to understand the revelation they've recieved. It's by rationalizing and trying to make sense of your Revelation that you get useful abilities.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:18 No.3571156

    I think some of you misunderstood it. Its not about finding something again, its about REMEMBERING it.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:19 No.3571163
    I like silly and serious equally. It's just really hard to develop mechanics that support both "losing your head because it's not screwed on" and "all matter is completely interchangeable."
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:20 No.3571174
    Aside from all the normal things people who suddenly discover they can affect the universe in really weird ways would do.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:21 No.3571181
    The idea is that no one knows about this. See it this way instead, by being unable to reach the truth you make sure the PCs keep looking for it forever.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:22 No.3571185

    >"losing your head because it's not screwed on" and "all matter is completely interchangeable."

    You could even do those two as part of the same "ability tree" or school. All matter is interchangeable, so there's nothing particular keeping my head on my body. It could be anywhere else.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:23 No.3571199

    Exactly. The point of calling it Anamnesis is that this truth is available to everyone, most people just don't know the path back to it.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:24 No.3571207

    Revelation <- this should be a name in the final product

    Perhaps a name for the abilities?
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:25 No.3571216
    Except the former can be merely played as a trick of language rather than application of the 'serious' philosophical Insight.

    Or maybe some people can just tap into the fact that language describes how the world really is, rather than how we usually think of it being an imperfect instrument.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:26 No.3571223
    Revelation, Insight, Epiphany. Whatever you call it, it's what lets Anamnesics do what they do.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:27 No.3571228
    In the example, Socrates is supposed to have made a young boy understand a geometric problem without having it explained by him but simply through a series of questions (in order to make him remember the answer himself). Perhaps in the OP post, seeing the raindrop and the tear falling works as a "question" or statement that triggers this whole process of remembering. And for the slightest second he/she DOES remember the truth but forgets it.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:32 No.3571258
    "Revelation, Insight, Epiphany. Whatever you call it, it's what lets Anamnesics do what they do."

    Somehow this feels like how Whitewolf would've described it.. got the quality to it.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:34 No.3571274
    I think we need to answer some questions like how would the game mechanics be, how are the games supposed to run, some abilities, fluff, factions and so on.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:38 No.3571298

    >Revelation, Insight, Epiphany

    Wait, I got an idea. These 3 words are basically the different paths an Anamnetic can take. Look.

    Revelation: You've experienced a communion with the Universe, or a higher being, or something. Whatever it is, it's left you with a realization that's overwhelming. This is like the awe of "standing before God" or "seeing the whole universe".

    Insight: Eureka, you've solved it at last! Some problem of science, math, philosophy or logic that no one could ever solve, you've managed to see the answer to. Problem is, you can't write it down or formulate it, the true answer keeps eluding you. But you see reality differently now, and it bends to your understanding.

    Epiphany: An idea that seems silly at first becomes your gateway into the fundamental truth of the universe. Like Arthur Dent, you manage to perform a miracle by clothing it in a pun.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:38 No.3571300
    Oh, you've outed me. I'm actually here looking for ideas to steal for our next game.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:38 No.3571303
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    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:40 No.3571313
    Oh, hell yes.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:41 No.3571320
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    He who searches for the path to enlightenment, no matter how noble his quest, does so for selfish purposes. To transcend the mundane, to become a part of all that is, you must first be unaware of its existence.

    Enlightenment only comes to those who never wanted it.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:43 No.3571329
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    More like this, really.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)05:43 No.3571333
    Sorry. We tried to license it but DC wanted a blowjob and half ownership.
    >> Earthflame !98PcYIvlCI 01/31/09(Sat)06:06 No.3571457
    I wake up, and this thread is still alive? This bodes well indeed...
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)06:12 No.3571488
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    Well, I just had to comment. My personal view of enlightenment just fit right into it so well.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)06:38 No.3571608
    Hmm... well, for fluffing out the world, we already have the classical opposition- The Akademia, descended from the ancient Greek philosophers who are determined to keep the search for knowledge just that- a search. Anyone finding it would put too many people out of jobs and stop people being so uncertain, which means they're easier to control. Some form of religious opposing group might fit, although they might support certain viewpoints, as would some form of technological and/or post-modernist faction, apart from the Anmnawhatevers
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)07:18 No.3571738

    Slightly self referential, but an idea for one of the tech factions.

    "The Forum". A fusion of the ancient political systems of ancient Greece and the modern system to encourage debate and conversation, The Forum is a strange group indeed. Infinitely varied in userbase, it can be retarded or ingenius from one moment to the next. Its capabilities range from nothing to anything, and its reach spreads both nowhere and everywhere. Its fundamentally chaotic, roiling with internal debate, its fickle nature shifting from one moment to the next, action to inaction, extreme to moderate to extreme. Its unclear how it actually functions, or even if to does, but several of the ancient orders have found themselves foiled or saved by the seemingly random, causally nonsensical actions of this group of apparently powerless internet nerds.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)08:37 No.3571972
    So, how will the stats work?

    One represents the strength of your connection to the insight, your powers defining stat. Belief or Clarity were given names.

    One is the discord between your ability and your truth, which can lead to Amnesia? this could be the Doubt people were talking about.

    Then people were talking about power category stats of various sorts.

    Do we need physical stats? Or can those be dumped, or simplified?
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)08:42 No.3571987
    Oh mai gaaaaaaa
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)09:07 No.3572056
    Physical stats should be as close to realistic as possible. We're not talking about superhumans or mutants or shit here. This is a perfectly ordinary, normal, real-world scenario with the WTFLOLHAX ability to alter reality in strange ways.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)09:13 No.3572076
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    Yes. Yes she is.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)09:27 No.3572152

    I mean, how important will they be? If the focus of the game is on the mind and its power, do we even need physical stats, or perhaps only one physical stat rather than the two, three or more used in more physically focused games
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)09:31 No.3572170
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    Just my personal opinion here, but I think physical stats should be fairly broad. I mean, at least at lower levels and so on, the players are going to spend most of their time having their daily lives interrupted by WTFery and running from the gub'ment secret police illuminati and so on.

    Basically, my emphasis would be on making the game as normal as possible but with occasional bouts of REALLY STRANGE SHIT. Hell, most of the reality-altering abilities should be less superpowers and more just the ability to cause shit to happen. Like manipulating probability so that the bad guys get run over by a passing truck, or some such. Little tweaks in the "system" that have huge consequences.

    Then again, I'm a fan of Chaos Theory.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)12:34 No.3573163
    How about just Athleticism and Toughness?
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)12:36 No.3573175
    Meh. Whatever.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)13:02 No.3573354
    Hehehe, i can see fun things like procrastination which actutally works. Even if it is vitally important, you can stitll put it off until later.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)13:27 No.3573491

    Those could just be skills or something. The main stats could be all the mental stuff, with skills having a subset of physical skills. useful, because you can actually do shit, but less synergistic (usually) with the voodoo you can do.

    reminds me of the babe...
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)14:09 No.3573824
    I honestly think using WoD might be a good idea for this game. It fits the theme, as has been said, and the rules might work too. Have Insight or Belief or whatever as the definer Stat, like Gnosis or whatever, and then add the powers. I can't help but seeing the diagrams in


    as quite a good idea, if it could be worked out well.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)14:20 No.3573902
    I'm not a 100% sure whether this idea is appropriate or not, but would the following work?

    Sod's Law (also known as Murphy's Law or Finagle's law) states that, broadly speaking, if it can go wrong it will go wrong. Catherine Jenkins Anamnetic Revelation showed that this humourous aphorism was in fact one of the overiding features of the Universe. Worse still, the universe actively conspired to cause the worst possible outcome. The toast really did want to fall butter side down.

    After screaming a bit, and regaining her senses, Catherine returned to the world aware that she knew something was terribly wrong, but unabe able to remember quite what it was. However, she began to notice that everyone she met suddenly seemed to have really, really bad luck...

    It's a bit Call of Cthulhu-esqe I know, but I wondered what would happen if someone had a Revelation as described by >>3571298 and in
    that "standing before God, seeing the Universe entire" discovered something really horrible. I mean, if people can have 'good' revelations, would it be possible to have a bad one? Or could you have a revelation which your conscious mind rejects - like a devout Catholic having the "There is no God" one?
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)14:24 No.3573937

    Rejected Insights? Bad Insights? Thats fucking great! we hadn't thought of that, but it opens up a whole load of new options... Certainly worth thinking deeply into.
    >> Chaotic Cleric 01/31/09(Sat)15:01 No.3574276
    It was a business trip like any other. Chip Donaldson gets himself comfy, reads his magazine, asks the flight attendant to refill his coffee. Then, in a brief illuminating instance, the fate of the universe becomes clear. Everything cools. But there will be no re-heating the sun once it burns out. Or any other sun. This will not happen for many millenia from now. Nothing that is now, anything that happens now, will have any notice by then. The flight attendant stops pouring. Chip Donaldson just stares at the brim-full cup, his own eyes spilling over.

    The flight lands. Chip stands up, and leaves his carry-on luggage, the laptop, the souvenirs for his wife. He walks past luggage claim. He walks out the door, into a cab. He mumbles directions, the driver takes him to a nearby bar.
    He gets out of the cab, leaving his wallet. Chip walks down the street. After a few hours, someone stops him. It takes most of Chip's concentration to even notice. He gets shot. Seven times. Chip shakes his head, pushes the person away and keeps walking. Eventually, he goes into a diner and sits in a booth. The waitress asks him for his order, he asks for a refill. He lifts it to his lips and drinks... and then the coffee shop goes back into focus. He feels better. He drinks more, then pulls out his wallet... and stares at it. He looks at his chest. Nothing. He pulls open his shirt, no bullet holes. No blood. Nothing. He pays for the coffee, and then runs out, remembering all the things he'd left at the airport...

    Just sideways inspired by the 'bad revelation' idea. Also, taken from an old April Fool's Dragon article on 'lesser-known cliques of Planescape', there was a group called The Apathetics who were invulnerable to attack by anything less than +4 weapons because they just didn't care.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)16:08 No.3574623
    If it's possible for a "there is no God" type revelation, would it be possible to have the opposite type? A sudden and very clear understanding that there is a omniscient and omnipotent force looking after your wellbeing (a generalised spiritual force, one that different Anamnetics down the ages have interpreted as being God, Allah, the Great Spirit, Ra, Gaia, etc.)

    If you imagine that the revelation reboots the universe when an Anamnetic has it, it could be possible for that truth to co-exist alongside the truth that there are no gods - when that Anamnetic had their revelation, God existed. But by having the revelation, the universe restarted as one where God may not exist.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)16:16 No.3574660
    Hah! All these Insights are just relics of dead universes. You were just too busy thinking to notice the switch. Does away with the incompatibility problem nicely, and adds some mystery to the persistent opposition these people face. How does the same damned fool organization keep popping up?
    >> Chaotic Cleric 01/31/09(Sat)17:27 No.3575149
    It's a fuckhuge universe. That last revelation put pink bunnies inside the moon of Rigel 4. The one before that caused a billion eggs to pop into being on the far side of the galaxy. Joseph's caused a spilling glass of milk in Peoria to spell out the words 'YOU_LOSE', but the only person that saw that was the cat that spilled the milk, so the effect was lost.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)17:34 No.3575188
    >Joseph's caused a spilling glass of milk in Peoria to spell out the words 'THE_GAME',
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)17:48 No.3575270
    Awesome ideas. But, it needs a system.

    Votes for adapting WoD, directly, so its compatible with the whole WW-metaverse?
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)17:53 No.3575317
    Thats an awesome idea, we should use it.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)17:59 No.3575362
    I think you guys took a great concept, missed the point, and turned it into Mage.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:01 No.3575378

    Then please, oh enlightened one, Tell us where we went wrong. From your position to make absolute judgements upon us, beget upon yours your wisdom also.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:01 No.3575383
    This needs archiving for posterity.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:08 No.3575423

    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:10 No.3575439

    I think you took a great idea that's already been done by Mage (either one), Unknown Armies, etc. and tried to say no one ever thought of it before ever except, of all people, Douglas Adams.

    Enlightenment is not new. It's one step away for all people. Why shouldn't there be plenty of roleplaying games that explore the concept?
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:18 No.3575497
    WoD ruleset or UA ruleset would be great for this.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:25 No.3575542
    Somewhere after the end of the first thread.

    I was envisioning it as a sort of game where every character is essentially a rogue with weird and specific supernatural abilities based on paradoxical or flawed lines of reasoning. You guys are putting all of the focus on the powers and the main characters are no longer the OPPOSITE of philosophers, having some magical "truth" just fall into their lap while using their magical powers as a justification for the validity of their interpretation, now they're just fucking philosophers with a supernatural bent.

    They GLIMPSED the "truth". They barely remember any of it, and it left them woefully unprepared for the people who now want to fuck with them as a result. They're not wizards, there is no core power to build upon as they gradually add extensions to it. Instead they start with two or three extensions and no core to work with, the core is the Truth that they seek. They perceived a vast repository of incredible knowledge for a brief moment and only had time to memorize two or three tricks. They can alter reality sure, but only in very specific ways. They can't rely on it like a wizard can because it's not very versatile, they have to augment it with mundane skill and wits and hope that that's enough for a mostly normal person to survive being hunted down by hordes of zealots, government agents, and intellectuals offended by the very idea of assuming something is true just because there is magical power attached to the idea.

    Now you guys are putting ALL of the focus on the powers. Nothing objectively wrong with that but it definitely detracts from the potential originality of the concept, because now they're fucking wizards. Turn the real philosophers into wizards if you want, it'd fit them well and add to the setting. Just leave the Anamnesics out of it.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:31 No.3575573
    Perhapse, but powers are an important mechanic
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:37 No.3575631

    You have a good point. However, even if they start like that, I would say allow Some progress. Some learning of new tricks. Restrict it, and make it wierd, but a player would probably get bored with a bag of three tricks, however cool those tricks were.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:39 No.3575643
    Important, but I really don't think they should be all-consuming. Not for the Anamnesics at least. Most of the ideas that I disagree with when applied to the Anamnesics would actually be really fitting when applied to the philosophers, which would be more traditional magic users from both an in-universe and meta-textual perspective, and a given PC could choose between them.

    It's called Philospher after all, doesn't make sense that the only class available would be the opposite of one. Also the idea of evil philosophers hunting people down for fucking with philosophy is kind of stupid if they're just normal philosophers like in the real world.
    >> Mr. Butlertron, the Robot Butler 01/31/09(Sat)18:39 No.3575646
    You're onto something there. The "real" philosophers have more varied powers, but as they're based upon a false understanding of the universe, the exceedingly specialized powers that Anamnesics have override them, or ignore them completely. This obviously threatens bot only their livelihood, but also their entire power structure. So while one Anamnesic can see that the human limitation of sound and light being different things is a false construct, the philosopher that is chasing him can establish a false theorem of causality to destroy his home, or to plunge him into darkness, but not destroy him directly, and if the Anamesic decides to sing up some illumination, that darkness may as well never have been there.
    I do think that fitted powers for certain philosophies is a fun idea, though.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:41 No.3575661
    Yeah I agree with that to an extent but mundane competence should retain some degree of importance at all levels of Anamnetic power. It helps with the "small fish trying to find its place in a big ocean full of sharks" feel.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:42 No.3575667
    >I do think that fitted powers for certain philosophies is a fun idea, though.
    I want to see this even if it's not the anamnetics who have them.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:44 No.3575681
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    pic definitely seems related.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:45 No.3575683
    Sounds good, and I definitely agree with different schools of philosophers having different specialties.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:45 No.3575686
    >The "real" philosophers have more varied powers, but as they're based upon a false understanding of the universe, the exceedingly specialized powers that Anamnesics have override them, or ignore them completely
    This is too close to Solars vs. Dragon Blooded for my tastes.
    >> Mr. Butlertron, the Robot Butler 01/31/09(Sat)18:47 No.3575704
    Well Wesley, a solipsist would destroy things by ignoring them, a humanist would inspire the best in himself and others, to ignore the false constraints of the world, a goetian would travel astrally, or expel inner demons to fight for him, and so on.
    If it fits well with the theme of a philosophy, then try it out. Obviously, this won't work for every idea, but it is a good way to fit abilities to Anamnesics with pre-established philosophic leanings, or even to philosphic antagonists.
    >> Mr. Butlertron, the Robot Butler 01/31/09(Sat)18:49 No.3575718
    Sorry, I'm not seeing the similarity, could you explain?
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:50 No.3575732
    Yeah, I don't know if I like the idea of arbitrarily deciding that the Anamnesics are "right" on some cosmic level. Doesn't really engender sympathy. Same thing bothered me about the Solars.
    >> MR. RAGE !D9l9S8Lio6 01/31/09(Sat)18:53 No.3575757


    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:53 No.3575758

    It also raises problems for philosophers who make axiomatic statements about the nature of the universe that can't be challenged - Kant's recognition that all of our information about the physical world is potentially suspect on account of the fact that it comes through our sense, for example.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:55 No.3575768
    >Anamnesics with pre-established philosophic leanings

    I imagine such people would be more likely to flip the fuck out than attempt to reconcile philosophy with anamnetics. Maybe they can use both philosophical and anamnetic powers, but their philosophical leanings don't affect their anamnetics and it takes a lot of willpower and intelligence to simultaneously believe in two irreconcilable perspectives of "truth" at once.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:56 No.3575775
    I'd rather the philosophers not necessarily be people who have to resort to trickery or special tactics just to be able to use their power against the anamnetics. Some of them, sure, but not all and probably not most.

    I definitely don't want the anamnetics to become a kind of favored child. If their powers are going to have the ability to supersede others' powers, it should apply to everyone who uses powers and there should probably be some kind of opposed roll.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)18:57 No.3575786


    >> Mr. Butlertron, the Robot Butler 01/31/09(Sat)18:59 No.3575798
    Oh, i get it. Well, the entire premise is that the Anamnesics have glimpsed the truth of the universe, and even if they don't remember it completely, it was still the, y'know, truth. But I never meant that the Anamnesics would just not be affected, only that, unlike the rest of the population, they could fight back, and so not be completely subjugant to the philosophers. I have trouble phrasing things the way I mean them, sorry.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)19:03 No.3575822
    No problem. No offense meant, none taken.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)19:05 No.3575836
    So would philosophers be the dominant force in the universe then? Because I think other ideas for antagonists such as well-trained and equipped government agents and hordes of religious zealots fit really well too and we need to make some room for them.
    >> Mr. Butlertron, the Robot Butler 01/31/09(Sat)19:10 No.3575876
    They would be a large force, more of a secret conspiracy than anything else, obviously forced to stay secret to hold onto power. Government agencies and religious zealots would have their own reasons to hunt the Anamnetics, but with vastly different means at their disposal, causing different conflicts with these new powers.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)19:12 No.3575906
    Sounds good.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)19:15 No.3575937

    A triad of opposition- Agents (Government), Zealots (religious), Philosophers.

    The Agents have skill, firepower, and a legal right to kick the shit out of you. No supernatural abilities, but then again, they don't really need it.

    Zealots have the grace of god. They Have their truth. They feel no need to search for it, and hunt the Heretics who claim there to be another truth than god. Miracles are passive abilities, helping out in dire need (Fate points? Miraculous effects on a crit?)

    Philosophers are those who seek knowledge, fighting for the good of humanity. For, without drive to progress, with the solid knowledge the Anamnetics promise, mankind would grind to a halt. All that was great and good would fall, and we would die, simple and content. But never accomplish anything more.
    >> Mr. Butlertron, the Robot Butler 01/31/09(Sat)19:20 No.3575983
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    I like it. That the protagonists pretty much spell death for the human race adds well to the drama of the setting.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)19:22 No.3576003
    I prefer the idea of a singular conspiracy, made up of different high-ranking people and academics who would lose power if the truth of the universe suddenly came out.

    Also, I still like the idea that the "Revelation" was a singular event-- it only happened to a thousand or so people, but it did at the same instant. That way you solve a large degree of the problem of the differences between people's revelations, because they all saw a different little piece of it, and you give your players an incentive to work together, as part of the point would be to collaborate to get closer to the full, absolute truth.
    >> Mr. Butlertron, the Robot Butler 01/31/09(Sat)19:25 No.3576030
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    Oh, i like that as well. It could perhaps vary, depending on what type of game the GM wants to run. Anyway, i have to power down for the night. Good luck Wesleys
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)19:38 No.3576158
    >It could perhaps vary, depending on what type of game the GM wants to run.
    I like this approach. The rulebook can provide the factions and make suggestions, but leave the GM to decide how to implement them.

    I'd want to go the same way regarding whether what the anamnesics is the truth, is the same truth as the philosophers, or different truths... that sort of thing.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)20:03 No.3576331
    The philosophers shouldn't have any powers. That is dumb at the very apex of stupidity. The entire reason the philosophers want our guys dead is because the philosophers have been peddling false truths the entire time and the Anamnetics can prove they are wrong and that there is an absolute truth to Everything. It fucks with their livelihood and they can't have that.

    Quoting the god damn OP and the brainparent of this brainchild he's letting you flesh out in the womb of /tg/:
    >all the "Real" philosophers want them dead, as anyone with an absolute answer will almost certainly put them out of a job
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)20:04 No.3576342
    I hate you.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)20:09 No.3576366
    >the god damn OP
    Wow, /co/ has ruined me.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)20:10 No.3576378
    NO, you hate what he represents, you hate his actions. But you do not hate him.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)20:16 No.3576415
    I hate all people everywhere until I meet them. Then I am neutral until you earn preference either way.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)20:18 No.3576425
    You are an insufferable twat for correcting another being on how it feels.
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)20:23 No.3576455
    I hate people but I could like persons?
    >> Anonymous 01/31/09(Sat)22:20 No.3577255
    Initial reaction: it doesn't sound like it would provide good anamnetic powers, but it's entirely plausible.

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