Sounds like a WoD setting game.

>>3552385

By concept or by naming convention?

>>3552395

Both. The naming convention is off really, should be something like Philosopher: The Revelation if it would fit. But yeah. I dunno. Concept sounds a bit thin to stretch a whole game around.

So was anyone else jealous of Arthur when he got to bang her?

>>3552415

Its not something you'd run a long campaign with, I think. Either a one shot or a short, three session campaign just for a laugh and to see what you could do with it.

OP, I both adore you and want to rip out your intestines and paint with them.

FINISH A FUCKING GAME. DON'T LISTEN TO THE SIREN SONG OF HITCHHIKERS.

>>3552415
If a game about traipsing around a forest fighting the lure of nature with your EMO PAIN can work, so can this.

>>3552419

I've finished one game (ArtifIce) and all I really need for Eurid is an editor (Which is why I'm avoiding working on it). As I said, I am still working on Mosaic, just I get bored after a while. Little distractions like this help restore my enthusiasm for the whole business and thus I'll work more efficiently on Mosaic! The system works! (In my own head)

Also, a general apology if I seem weird, I'm rather ill currently, and it may be screwing with my mental state.

this sounds pretty interesting. Would there be different philosophical schools, each with a different take on what their insight was, and therefore different powers? For example, a solipsist would destroy things by not looking at them, or an idealist reducing everything to it's least complex form.
Or, would the various abilities and such be more dependent upon something that, were it not for what we believe to be the laws of the universe, would be common sense, like the aforementioned flight ability?

>>3552442

I'd say a mixture of both would work. For a formally trained philosopher who received Insight, their reality warping thoughts would fall in line with their particular school of philosophy. For a normal person who came upon Insight through idle thinking, simple twists of logic. Of course, over time, Philosophers could probably teach each other their tricks, if they could understand how they work.

Hehehe, destroying something by believing its not there. That's a very good one...

>>3552442

Reminds me of Dungeons and Discourse.

>>3552457
I think affecting other objects via your Insight would be higher level abilities. Applying a new understanding to yourself seems much easier than applying it to the rest of the world.

>>3552487
I don't know about that, Wesley. Often the most difficult part of any given philosophy is internalizing it. However, with the given Insight that has been aqcuired, the closest area of the universe that you can remember the truth about would probably be the one that you can most easily remember the truth about, and therefore affect, and that is, of course, your own physical being

This reminds me of one of the Knacks (or is it a boon?) from Scion, where you can negate an attack you weren't aware of. Something like that might fit? ignore the consequences of an action you're unaware of.

>>3552506
You may be right, as I'm biased of course; my philosophy is Jedi, so naturally I believe you ought to start with your own self.

Well, if you're talking about what you can effect, it might be wise to define the various aspects of what is.

Reality (Objective/Subjective?)
Self (Physical/Immaterial?)

Hmm... but doesn't this almost automatically set the universe to a Subjective mode and a Dualist account of mind?

>>3552547
Only if your philosophy is such that it would be so under such a doctrine. The true nature of the universe was open to you for a brief instant, however, and it is up to the gm to decide what that would be.
But if we continue with the abilities determined by schools of philosophy, it could be that only philosophers that believe in a dualist universe can affect it as such, and cannot be affected by other philosopher's upon the plane of existence that they do not believe exists.
For a trippier game, it could be that reality is defined by the collective unconscious, and the abilities of philosophers are due to overriding it with insight, but, as we are trying to create a new game, and not simply to imitate old mage, that idea should be tabled for now, and only spoken of if it can be altered enough to not be a complete rip-off.

...I can see this leading to some very heated inter-party debates. And, if you're a thinker whose thoughts shape reality, they may well directly translate into a literal conflict...

>>3552596
Which would be half the fun!

So, how would advancement work? Gaining greater and greater portions of Insight, your mind becoming more and more able to tap into the truth of the universe, and yet at the same time more able to twist it- Oh god, you're going for the Hitchhikers solution aren't you? Whenever anyone finds absolute truth, the universe completely changes so that the truth is even stranger than before. That'd be the ultimate anticlimax...

So, take WoD and insert into it... Wilson's Illuminatus trilogy.

Man, that DOES sound awesome.

>>3552632

Never read the Illuminatus Trilogy, but I'm always on the look out for an interesting read. Would you reccomend them?

>>3552650
Yes, yes, a million times yes! GO! Read these books!

>>3552620
How is a campaign-ending apocalypse (of knowledge, in this case) an anticlimax?

>>3552650

Yes. No. 23 Skidoo.

Of course, once you get a DaDaist in the party, things start to get really giraffe.

God bless Bookchan. A few clicks, five minutes, and the whole Illuminatus Trilogy is on my laptop. Replies may be slow, if the books are as good as rumoured.

"The Akademia"

Formed in the days of ancient greece, this group has been working for thousands of years to maintain a productive view of the world that people can work in without that much questions. They have been aware of the existence of people with the ability to violate reality since their founding (was Socrates a titular Philosopher?), and consider them to be highly disruptive to their efforts.

Because of this, the Akademia (pulling a lot of string) makes sure that all Philosophers are suppressed or turned to serve their cause, even if this involves murder or literally making the targets disappear.

>>3552697
Don't sweat it. We've got this covered.

Ouch... I'm barely two pages in and this book is hurting my brain. Its awesome but somewhat hard to follow...

>>3552748

Mwahahahaha. Just as planned.

Pretty soon we're going to get a game out of this. Hagbard Celine: The Utter Dickery.

EVERYONE OUT OF THE CAR! BAVARIAN FIRE DRILL! GO! GO! GO!

Hmm... lets put some thinking into this. What would certain philosophies let you twist? Which historical philosophers were actually Philosophers? the Akademia are

>>3552794

No. Everybody lie down on the floor and stay calm. Fucking JAMs.

>>3552799
Well, there's the three usual categories: Epistemology, Metaphysics, and Ethics. The first two are fairly straightforward, I just have no idea what Ethical theories would allow for. But we might want to keep it at a fairly high level like that rather than getting into the weeds of particular philosophies to prevent class creep like you see in so many RPGs.

>>3552829

I think rather than thinking in the usual "philosophies as classes" mold, let's go in the other direction. Start with the Revelation that the character recieves. Maybe it is revealed that all minds are one, or that God is dead, or that the purpose of mankind is to serve you, or that everything is illusory. Go with that, and the philosophy of the given character develops as a rationalization of the Revelation that was experienced.

>>3552829
I dunno, Ethics is pretty interesting, and really, why do we care about power balance? It's all about worldview, not what belief in the nature of the universe will give me the biggest bonus.
Ethics could be a number of things. A Hedonist would eliminate displeasurable things, such as wounds or disease, a Humanist could boost themselves to the highest human potential, and so on.

>>3552848
Actually, that would be the Revelation/Insight that is remembered, not the whole that was experienced. But anyways, don't get me wrong, I'm all for freeforming like that. I just think we need some kind of general structure to keep things from getting out of hand when everyone wants to introduce their own preferred variations.

OH GOD MY BRAIN!

>>3552848

This seems a good idea to me. I'm against classes, generally, as a rule, and in a game about philosophy mental flexibility is a useful tool. As for different paths of philosophy, that only applies to a classically trained philosopher. For the untrained who receive Insight, they might do things like the bullet-curving from the Wanted movie. "If No one had ever told you bullets fly straight, how would you make one curve?", that kinda thing.

Also, BLARGH. my eyes are hurting, and I don't know why...

>>3552874

What I mean is that you'd return from the Revelation with a general statement like the ones I posted above, and then the philosophy that is generated from that will be represented by abilities that you select from a pool. So it's still not freeforming, but it allows for greater variation within a "school".

I don't know if this would be quite what you wanted, but I had this idea for a skill. I based it on the explaination here
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/paradox-zeno/#AchTor

Skill - Zenoist Tortoise Sprint:
Evade any pursuer by paradox sprinting.
You are being pursued by something much faster then yourself. However, to stop you they must first catch you. To reach you, they must first reach the point from which you started running. But in the time it takes to do this, you have run a bit further forward. So next your pursuer must reach this new point. But in the time it takes it to do this you've gone forward a tiny bit further. And so on to infinity: every time your pursuer reaches the place where you were, you have had enough time to get a little bit further, and so it has another run to make, and so your opponent has an infinite number of finite catch-ups to do before he can catch you. Thus, you cannot be caught up with. On the other hand, unless they give up first, you can't stop running either...

>>3552883
That's actually what I was getting at as well. My apologies if I miscommunicated.

>>3552879
Hmm. So the untrained tend more towards breaking the laws of physics, whereas the trained break the laws of metaphysics. I was thinking it was more of a generalist/specialist distinction, but that probably works better.

>>3552931

Nothing needs be exactly defined just yet, its simply an idea in my head. If its a bad idea, I can just let it drift away...

Also, oh my god this fucking book. What the hell is up with it? I'm worried by all the little facts which Don't make sense, and I'm utterly terrified with the few scraps of information which Do!

>>3552954
You know better than that. In /tg/, even bad ideas get appropriated by someone. (Usually a troll.) Not that this is a bad idea...we wouldn't be discussing it if it were, now would we?

>>3552972

You speak truth.

>>3552954

Keep reading. It will all come together in the end.

Really.

>>3552415
Those extra titles are fucking cheesy

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Hitchhiker's Guide is over-rated and this is terrible.

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>>3553078

You are a soulless bastard with no appreciation of truly great humour. I will defend Douglas Adams to the death.

What do you dislike about the idea? Is it just the relation to hitchhikers, or does some part of the concept piss you off?

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>>3553089
Ignore the troll, EF.

>>3552457
Or scepticism. This whole concept reminds me of a thing a friend told me.. it was basicly philosophers who could force their ideal or belief onto something. Thus, if you're sceptic about something existence you could make it non-existing.

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You are a tabletop god, EF.

>>3553137

Sometimes I feel more like a tormenting demon. Constantly popping up and saying "Hey, here's an idea!" and, if I'm lucky, having people get into it. And then, usually, I drift on, and say "Hey, here's an idea!". And there's always a couple of people who look back at the old idea and think. "Dang, that could've been really, really good...". I do intend to finish every project I start... but at the rate I start them, I'm not sure I have enough time in my total lifespan, even factoring in those far off years of retirement.

>>3553158

ADD's a bitch, ain't it? I go through the same trouble with most of my works.

and there's another one! Goeticism! This world is a trap for the soul, and people must excise their sdemonsd to escape. Earthflame, i have some bad news. You are a product of a Philosopher's self-doubt. Enjoy that.

>>3553158
Have you considered that most of us don't actually play any of the games featured here, and so it doesn't matter if any of them are finished since we just use the discussion generated by your ideas as a convenient distraction from the constant shitstorms?

>>3553194

I have considered the possibility. It is an interesting one. But, for all the useful discussion, I never really feel I've achieved anything unless I have some proof. An archived thread, a game PDF, a group of people with fond memories etc. Perhaps I'm just vain, or stupid, since none of that is really achievement...

>>3553179

Really? Splendid! What a fantastic plot hook...

Hmm... I don't know much about philosophy, but the untrained philosophers could have some funny stuff, like

"It's only five minutes to the shops". Despite everyone else taking ten minutes to walk there, they stubbornly insist, and believe, that it is a five minute walk for them. They don't take a different route, or go quickly. They merely traverse the entire distance in the time they believe it will take, rather than the time it should.

"Its just a scratch". No matter how serious the wound, if its initial effects can be easily disregarded, it is reduced to such, dwindling to nothing. This doesn't work on obvious or excessively painful wounds, as it is very clear what those are

>>3553350
"It's just the cat." No matter what diabolical threat was sneaking up on you, you turn around and it really was just a cat...an evil cat.

This is all well and good as an idea etc, but you gotta think how you'd systematise it. I'd say go for abstract stats and skills, more metaphorical than literal, freeform powers with guidelines on philosophy, and let people roam free. Liberal, you know?

>>3553179
I think you mean Goetia. 'Goeticism' isn't a word.

Who thinks /tg/ should come up with a game like Earthflame: the Developing. Characters play people obscured behind internet aliases, driven by an undefinable urge to create great games, and have to contend with the myriad distractions of trolls, sage, and occasionally even real life.

DID I DO GOOD HUH HUH

>>3553490

I must admit, I Lol'd

>>3553490
Sure is meta around here.

>>3553490

heh, that is indeed a good one.

Also, were the people earlier in the thread serious about the Illuminatus book making sense? How far do you need to get through? Right to the end of the trilogy? Cos it still seems nonsensical to me...

Hmm... Now I'm wondering what a Nietzschean could do. Or a follower of Sartre... Oh hell, Determinists would be terrifying. both predicting and forcing action...

>>3553677

Speak for yourself, the one I'd be worried about would be the untrained stoner, bringing the universe in line with his now constant high.

Thinking on the events which inspire their Insights- For a trained philosopher, it would be a connection between idea and life, or something of the sort. A strange moment of synergy when reality lined up with their mind and it all made sense. For untrained thinkers, it would simply be a moment of idle contemplation (such as when one is sitting in a cafe, drinking a cup of tea) which suddenly lines up in the same way as a philosopher. However, Something disrupts this, leaving them with only a fragment remaining in their mind.

>>3553677
I hope this doesn't end up becoming that Dresden Codak thing.

>>3553861
"Holy shit god's dead. Fuck I spilled my tea."

>>3553928

Joseph stared bitterly into his teacup, sitting in a run down service station cafe, with the rain pouring down outside. What was there more than this?

And he suddenly knew. There was nothing more. There was no god, no objective morality, no limitation or support. Man was truly, utterly free, to be all they could be or to descend into the worst depths of decay. Everything was permitted, nothing was forbidden. He saw infinity, streaming out before him, and all the world made sense. He rose from his seat, wanting to scream it out for all the world to hear.

He did scream, as the hot tea scalded his groin, the cup tipping over as he rose, placing his hands on the old and unsteady table. And he lost it. He lost it all. Even as one of the waitresses fussed over to him, proffering a towel, he simply stared, desperately trying to find that truth, that incredible freedom. But it was gone.

He sighed, and ordered another cup of tea. He shoved his hand in his pocket, and drew out the exact change for the meal, even though, up until then, that pocket had been completely empty...

>>3553861
Running out into the streets in only a towel, screaming about how God is real?

>>3553784
This is why I think it should be more difficult to affect the outside world.

Say, perhaps we should adopt Doubt as a power limiter and/or damage system. You may be able to unmake that bullet speeding at your brain, but the fact that it was there and you had to do so is a challenge to your worldview. Voila, induced doubt.

EF, every time I see your name, I smile, and every time I see it connected to a new game, I cry.

One day I will drown you.
You will choke on the saline, but even as the breath leaves your body, you will marvel at the wonderful taste of my despair. Mayhap it will inspire a final game concept, based entirely around inadvertently driving others to hopelessness and suicide... but for once, I won't have to hear about it.

I'm off to get a new mason jar. Keep up the good work.

>>3553993
I love you man.
My idea was a joke.

>>3554061

Eh, I was feeling creative, and It was fun to flesh it out a little

I think the best way to handle it would be to make it a point buy system. You have to buy talents. This allows for a more customizable belief system rather than the class based philosphy wankfest this threatens to become.

Also, I like the idea that every time you use certain powers or act against your belief system, you get Doubt points. If it gets high enough, you have to deal with it or bad shit happens.

>>3552427
how the fuck is having PTSD from being a war vet Emo Pain?

People have emotions. Pathos and catharsis are not bad things.

Elevating the negative ones to being better than the positive is stupid, but Summerland doesn't, its about deciding to keep going as you are being useful and hating yourself, or being able to join a family.

>>3554106
Thanks again
-BROFIST-

>>3554151

Only semi-relevant to your point, but this is a philosophically focused thread. It has been argued, by Nietzsche among others, that positive emotions and experiences merely give happiness, comfort, and other such things, which are in the long run worthless. If everyone was always content, nothing would get done. Negative emotion and negative experience encourage action, and advancement. Necessity is the mother of invention, and necessity arises through adversity.

>>3554151
No need to rage, Summerland fa/tg/uy. I approve of that system as I do this nascent one. I was just describing it in glib terms as a point of analogy. Traipsing around the forest is no thinner than delusions of grandeur about having the key to life, the universe, and everything.

Perhaps you could have a belief score which you use to 'buy' powers? Instead of a doubt score, your belief score just decreases when your worldview is shaken.

>>3554256
Why not both? Belief determines what you can do and how well you do it, while Doubt is a measurement of costs of doing business in a world that seems determined to stymie your pursuit of the ultimate truth.

>>3554345

So Belief is a static score that increases at level up, and Doubt is like SAN, an accumulating penalty score that increases when you use your powers and that has to be removed with special procedures?

>>3554365
Ah, SAN score. I knew it sounded familiar. Yeah, something like that. Although I'm not sure it should increase every time you use a power. Just the ones that are really incongruous with the apparent nature of reality.

>To their disadvantage, all the "Real" philosophers want them dead, as anyone with an absolute answer will almost certainly put them out of a job

Probably the most ridiculous thing ever.

>>3554423
You can't say it's not true.

>>3554423

Reminds me of this:

http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=0IblzBerSFk&feature=related

>>3554436
Yeah I probably can. This "ultimate truth" clearly relates to the practical workings of the universe. That's science. Philosophers wouldn't give a shit. And even if it were philosophy, just because something is true and obviously so doesn't mean everyone believes it. Look at evolution.

>>3554471

...Read the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Get the joke. Feel like a twat.

>>3554501
LOL 42

Rest assured, I get the joke. But the philosphers in this setting would have to bear little to no resemblance to "real" philosophers at all for it to work. Make them more like cult leaders and then you've got something.

>>3554524

...This entire thing is a joke. A parody. A fluting amusement of the imagination. Why the fuck are you taking it so seriously?

>>3554524
Yes, because people developing mysterious powers based on a dimly remembered glimpse of the eternal truth bears a great deal of resemblance to reality, doesn't it?

>>3554564

Happened to me just the other day.

>>3554547
Because this is fucking /tg/.

>>3554564
Hey maybe we could have wizards except in this setting wizards are lobotomized monkeys with strongly acidic semen that jack off on their opponents.

>>3554589

You're not making sense. Come again.

>>3554589

what? You're just being an ass now. Seriously dude, calm down. What's with the vitriol?

>>3554578
Really? Welcome to the club. So what did you get as your ultimate truth? All I got was this shitty "numbers do not exist" bullcrap. Seriously, what the fuck am I gonna do with that?

>>3554589
Shoo, troll.

>>3554615

I got TIME CUBE

EARTH HAS FOUR CORNER SIMULTANEOUS TIME

GODISM IS EVIL SATAN WORSHIP

I POSSESS MATH AND SCIENCE PROOF

EDUCATION OF ONEISM MAKES STUPIDS

>>3554614
What vitriol? I'm just suggesting that the "philosophers" would be better thought of as cult leaders if they're really going to be hunting people down for positing physical theories and have enough influence and power to even to do that in the first place. They can still be called philosophers, but that's not what they are.

It's a suggestion. It does not remove any comedy from the thing. Are we not allowed to put thought into things if they're intended to be humorous now?

>>3554634

You're reacting extremely badly to negative sentiments associated with your idea. Its not popular. Let it fall.

>>3554646
Why don't you use an actual argument based in something? No seriously, ANYTHING.

>>3554634

I hope you never play Metal Gear Solid 3. The main badguy organization there has a name that would give you an aneurism.

>>3554634
Mocking the views of others ("that's ridiculous", "that idea is equivalent to masturbating monkeys", "LOL SO RANDUM") is not usually the path to get your suggestions taken seriously. If you'd come in with a straightforward, well-reasoned suggestion that we take that out, we could've discussed it. But your initial approach ruined any chance of getting it accepted.

>>3554634

In the sense of "friends" or "lovers" of wisdom, the term isn't actually that off. They just aren't ACADEMIC philosophers.

>>3554634

THE HUMOR OF THE SITUATION IS HOW PHILOSOPHERS, SUPPOSEDLY SEARCHING FOR ULTIMATE TRUTH, ACTUALLY CONSPIRE TO KEEP THE TRUTH HIDDEN SINCE THEY'D LOSE THEIR JOBS OTHERWISE. YOU NOT GETTING THE JOKE AND THEN POSTING YOUR HUMORLESS "SUGGESTIONS" AND COMMENTS ON HOW WE SHOULD RENAME WIZARDS TO MONKEYS OR WHATEVER MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE AN ASPIE TARD THAT CANNOT COMPREHEND HUMAN EMOTION SO HE HAS TO SHIT ALL OVER EVERYTHING.

HERE'S AN ARGUMENT FOR YOU: SHUT THE FUCK UP.

>>3554680
I think you're on to something here. This is a group that believes if we were to find out the ultimate truth, the human urge to gain wisdom would die out. As far as they are concerned, this is the worst tragedy that could befall us. To prevent it, they will stop at nothing.

>>3554658
Okay, I'm getting a lot of people misinterpreting what I'm saying here and I'm not really sure why. I'm sorry if I seem angry or vitriolic but to be honest this is fucking 4chan, it's a pleasant surprise if someone's NOT being an asshole.

It's a fairly simple change and adds to the humor and danger of the setting. Make the philosophers cult leaders with a vague philosophical bent. The opponents would be planets of evil objectivists (redundant I know) who worship Ayn Rand instead of LOL THIS GUY IS PHILOSOPHER HE HATE TRUTH. Why is this a problem?

Also see:

>They can still be called philosophers, but that's not what they are.

>>3554697
Where's the opportunity for humor there, exactly? Seems the only humor is derived from a single ironic aspect.

>>3554731
Irony is funny.

>>3554714

Idea considered.

Idea rejected.

Reason: Needless alteration which simply confuses the setting.

Next idea please?

I heard Universe Next Door.

>>3554731

YES, AND THAT ONE IRONIC ASPECT IS WHAT YOU'RE SPENDING ALL THESE POSTS TRYING TO KILL. DIE IN A FIRE.

I'm not sure why we're trying to make humor a critical element of judging the validity of including an element in this game. It's just inspired by a humorous text. Nor am I sure why we should take versimilitude in the character of any particular group as such either.

Anyways, enough rage. Any ideas what we're going to call the PCs as a group? Philosophers seems intuitive, but that's subject to the same confusion that's caused all this mess. The Enlightened? Seekers?

>>3554768
Loonies.

>>3554768
Link it to Socratic recollection, since it fits extremely well thematically.

I was going to suggest "The Returned" as a vague reference to Plato's cave allegory.

>>3554786
>>3554792

I'm liking these.

>>3554786
"Anamnesis" is the Greek word for this, with dual connotations of 'remembering' and 'forgetting'.

>>3554743
I wish one of these critics would fucking elaborate a bit more but okay. I guess the philosophers are just rich people hiring mercenaries and shit to kill the player? I assume they're not hunting the player down themselves, and they're not cult leaders, so that's really the only option. RICH PEOPLE CONSPIRE LIKE THEY DO IN EVERY OTHER SETTING is significantly less original and humorous than LOL LOOK AT THAT PLANET OF OBJECTIVISTS, SO STUPID or HOLY SHIT PHILOSOPHY COMMANDOS but whatever.

Fine, I'll drop it. As a sign of good-will, I will toss out some more suggestions that I am less passionate and douchey about.

- Throw in some elder gods or chaos demons, who are attracted to the character's vaguely divine status, or lawful neutral aliens/cults who can't stand the idea of mere mortals improving their lot in the universal hierarchy as additional opposing factions. Just the philosophers and government seems kind of weak.

- Some characters could apply their extrauniversal understanding to superscience instead of altering reality on demand. This technology would be really advanced even by space-age standards, but since they only barely understand the theory behind it it's somewhat unreliable. As their understanding grows they are constantly rebuilding and fixing these machines, so they become more reliable as a character levels.

>>3554768
Personally I like the sound of "Glimpsers". They can have multiple names too, depending on how much whoever they're interacting with respects them.

>>3554812

No and no. You are adding unecessary elements. It would end up looking like a mish-mash. This is a conceptual game. The emphasis should be on the concept.

>>3554812
How do either of those fit thematically?

They don't.

>>3554812
They don't have to have a set form. I think we'd be better off leaving the details of the Philosophy-Cult-Conspiracy to individual groups. Those who want philosophy commandos can go that route, those who want rich people conspiring can do that. I think this, like all EF-connected games, is going to work better as a sandbox sort of thing.

>>3554828
How is the emphasis not on the concept? It's just expanded. Nothing is unrelated to the concept. No mundane techie class, no alien beast-tamers, no psykers. Just instead of doing things like "aiming for the ground and missing" themselves, a player could instead choose to build machines that do similarly absurd things.

>>3554806
If there's a form of the word describing a person, we might be in business, here.

>>3554821
I like both suggestions.

Why do we need to arbitrarily yes/no everything? Include all ideas, and let people choose.

Also, going into an analysing specific parts of the setting, or powers, at this point is a bit silly. Lets get the basics done first, and then we can all go on a personal gush about our particular awesome individual unique ideas.

>>3554836
I don't know, how do either of those things relate to the concept of glimpsing beyond the veil and pissing people off in the process?

>>3554850
If we build the mechanics in a sufficiently generic, non-fluff dependent way, there's no reason for this not to be possible.

>>3554859
This. This fa/tg/uy is the voice of reason. Listen to him.

>>3554850

My point is they are arbitrary. They're no different from slapping on any other idea or element one might have. There is no cohesion. Cohesion is an important thing.

>>3554859
>>3554870

Wouldn't including any and all ideas leave a bloated corpse made from tl and dr, rather than something usable?

>>3554812

Suggesting a "universal hierarchy" pins down the metaphysics too much. Not to mention the addition of cliched/typical fantastic elements to what is otherwise not cliched/typical fantasy.

Lets stop the horseshit for a second?

What are we calling the titular "Philosophers"?

Lets get the basics sorted, and then move on logically and reasonably, rather than debating specifics which have no foundation and may, in fact, be invalidated by the very basics which Should get finished first.

>>3554876
The rejection is what's arbitrary. The system posited a game focused around doing goofy physically impossible stuff like in the HGttG series, someone suggested an additional path of advancement focused around making goofy physically impossible technology like in the HGttG series. How is that not cohesive? It's not like the concept has been done to death or anything, they're both unique and heavily related to each other.

>>3554902
Yeah I'm the one who made those suggestions and I'll partially agree with that, completely as far as elder gods and chaos demons are concerned, but Lawful Neutral aliens might just be delusional. There doesn't have to be an actual universal hierarchy, they might just think there's one and that fucking with it is blasphemy. Also gives an opportunity to poke fun at fundamentalists. The setting could use more diverse threats than just a government conspiracy and an intellectual conspiracy, a religious conspiracy works too.

>>3554911
I think the multiple-terms option is probably our best choice, though I lean heavily towards preferring Anamnetics for the primary 'rulebook' term.

>>3554912
I understood the HtGttG as being a reference point for the idea, not the core of the idea. The addition of SCIENCE! just seems to make the emphasis less metaphysical. Plus, wacky sci-fi tech has been done to death (whereas things like Arthut Dent's flying trick haven't).

This'll be my last post regarding the suggestions.

>>3554911
Suggestions so far:

The Returned

Glimpsers

Loonies

Anamnetics

The Enlightened

Seekers

>>3554936
Sounds good to me.

>>3554931
>but Lawful Neutral aliens might just be delusional. There doesn't have to be an actual universal hierarchy, they might just think there's one and that fucking with it is blasphemy.

This I like.

Especially considering the Kierkegaardian contrast between the Christian conception of truth (inaccessible to all humanity and must be found in a transcendent/immanent teacher God/Christ) and the Socratic conception of truth (the truth is accessible to all humanity by recollection and inwardness) is used, seeing a religious antagonist might be interesting.

Formal:
The Returned
Anamnetics
The Enlightened

Informal:
Glimpsers
Seekers

Insult:
Loonies

>>3554941
Fair enough.

Anamnetics sounds awesome. Not so fond of ''Glimpsers' or 'Seekers' considering how often the 'ers' suffix gets used (Sliders, Psykers, Espers)

>>3554955
Or maybe it would be Anamnesics. Where's our Greekfags at?

>>3554984
It gets used often for a reason. Most occupations have an "er", an "ist", or a "man" at the end of them.
Works fine for informal speech, though Anamnetics definitely works better as a more formal term.

>>3554989
Anamnetists?

Fuck...

"I am... an Anamnetist."

"Dude, shit sucks. Any idea how long it'll take you to get your memory back?"

"..."

>>3555024
"I am... an Anamnetist."

"That's not funny, my brother died that way."

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How about this: Anamnetics is the discipline, and Anamnesics are the people.

>>3555038
Okay.

post 56 post 55 post 54 post 53 post 52 post 51 post 50 post 49 post 48 post 47 post 46 post 45 post 44 post 43 post 42 post 41 post 40 post 39 post 38 post 37 post 36 post 35 post 34 post 33 post 32 post 31 post 30 post 29 post 28 post 27 post 26 post 25 post 24 post 23 post 22 post 21 post 20 post 19 post 18 post 17 post 16 post 15 post 14 post 13 post 12 post 11 post 10 post 9 post 8 post 7 post 6 post 5 post 4 post 3 post 2 post 1

>>3555040
Sounds good.

So, Anamnetics is learnt through a glimpse of absolute truth, and the practice allows one to warp reality with thought, in line with their own philosophical outlook or personal view of reality (same thing really, but philosophical outlook is more formal, while personal perception less). What can it do? we need to work out some limits.

I think I like the sound of this. So imagine you've stumbled upon the idea that all sentient life has the same soul. That after you die, you will be reincarnated as someone else, at a different point in time.

By forcing yourself to remember a specific event, you may be capable of limited mind control. It'd go something like this:

You're on the run from some Goons, dispatched by a well-published Guru from somewhere that uses too many vowels. You run down an alley, and another, and another, hoping to make them split up. Dead end. You turn around, and see that only two of them have followed you this far. They draw their guns.

Roll Belief + Self + Metaphysics(or whatever)= SUCCESS! You manage to force a past-life regression on your attacker!

The Goon on the left suddenly remembers that HE WAS YOU, and in that moment of panic, shoots his compatriot in order to save him/you.

>>3555085
Damn near anything, given sufficient Belief. Some uses may incur Doubt costs, however.

>>3555085
Can't be relied on, at least not early on. I feel like characters should be more similar to rogues than wizards. They have to escape from a broad range of dangerous situations, and there are two types of reality altering powers:

1) Usable at will, reliable, and applied to specific situations (falling)

2) Broadly applicable but unreliable, uncontrollable, and/or only usable once in a while

>>3555085
I was thinking about modern superstition of observation. Stuff like "the milk always boils when your looking the other way" and how errors never show when you have an expert looking at what you're doing.

A Seeker might use this to his advantage by actually forcing effects by observing or not observing them, or having someone else observe them.

>>3555097
Right, excellent example. Perhaps we should use an opposed roll system? People, even ordinary ones, would have some resistance to you introducing your freaky ideas into their reality. And objects might have an Anchoring characteristic to the same end, reflecting how well they are tied into the parts of the ultimate truth that you don't know about.

>>3555097
Sounds fitting to me.

>>3555085
>we need to work out some limits.

I think that there should be no hard limits. The catch is the player has to be able to rationalize sufficiently about what they want to do. The emphasis should be on making ontological and metaphysical inferences from a foundational glimpse rather than mechanically defined limits.

I think the best limiting factor, if anything, should be temporal. Maintaining that sort of recollection puts a severe strain on a finite human being. The movements of metaphysics are not easy, and so cannot be maintained indefinitely. Most abilities should be 'events', singular instances like Dent's flying trick, rather than sustained manipulations.

>>3555097
THIS IS THE GAME. FUND IT!

>>3555097
The limit here being doubt costs (or something) resulting from remembering that time you were a goon who shot your friend.

>>3555127
Something like hilarious miscast effects come into play?

>>3555139
>I think the best limiting factor, if anything, should be temporal. Maintaining that sort of recollection puts a severe strain on a finite human being. The movements of metaphysics are not easy, and so cannot be maintained indefinitely. Most abilities should be 'events', singular instances like Dent's flying trick, rather than sustained manipulations.

I definitely agree with this.

>>3555132
Yeah, stuff like that would fall into the untrained Anamnesic's usual purview.

"Time isn't a constant."

By pushing Belief, your character can perform tasks at a faster pace. Provided that they have all the materials on-hand and the know-how, they could single-handedly assemble a working car from scrap in a matter of minutes. Or reduce travel time.

Also, in the case of 'pushing your beliefs on others', in C.J. Carajella's Witchcraft (AFMBE rules, but with excessive magic) mundanes had minor magical protection called 'The Denial'. Basically, you -could- try to throw a fireball into the middle of a crowd of people, but their combined disbelief would cause it to fizzle out before it did any damage.

Thus, normal people (NPCs that aren't Philosophers or whatever) should simply have a passive 'Denial' factor, which could even increase depending on how structured their lives are. (Cops and army people would have more Denial than say, stoners and the homeless.)

>>3555182
This feels too much like Mage.

>>3555190
Never played Mage. =P I was too busy being a howling eco-terrorist.

>>3555190
The entire concept is very Mage-y. But we can still make it our own.

>>3555182
>Thus, normal people (NPCs that aren't Philosophers or whatever) should simply have a passive 'Denial' factor, which could even increase depending on how structured their lives are. (Cops and army people would have more Denial than say, stoners and the homeless.)

And, as per the Guide, it might be possible to abuse this Denial to masquerade things.

>>3555224
SEP fields, eh?

>>3555190
Well let's focus on how to make it distinct from Mage. What do we want to make different, for instance.

I think dropping the Denial thing is best. We can differentiate from the 'perception/belief is reality' paradigm in Mage.

>>3555236
Agreed. So should we drop the opposed rolls altogether (except of course in the case of multi-Philosopher combat), or try a different explanation?

>>3555236
Actually, I like that better. If you go 'NUMBERS HAVE NO MEANING' and hand someone a dollar bill, everyone will see that it says 100 on it, even though George Washington is still glaring bitterly.

In my previous Soulhack example, a failure would mean that the Goon in question was simply you in an earlier life.

>>3555248
Against non-Anamnetic stuff, opposed rolls can be dropped. It's a question of the player coming up with a rationalization and the character succeeding in their recollection (which probably requires a roll).

Against Anamnetics, opposed rolls would probably work out. Dropping opposed rolls works fine too. With the exception of contradicting effects, I'm not sure why one would need them.

>>3555274
So, target numbers based on how outlandish your stunt is?

no way, have have that picture....or did. nevermind.

>>3555248
Well, the Anamnesics gain their powers from their schools of philosophy, so maybe normal people have resistance powers from mundane schools of thought.

Holy fuck, you guys have really taken this idea places. Awesome! I'm gonna finish reading the book, and then see if there's anything I can add...

>>3555287
This brings up a question: how are we going to explain conflicting schools of thought? Imperfect recollection explains why people might have different focuses or central ideas, but it doesn't explain how contradictory effects might be derived from what is presumably a single absolute reality.

>>3555256
Hmm. I think they might actually believe what they expect to be there, as the big 1 on there is meaningless. So you'd have to tell them, "Here's a hundred bucks," to get them to actually think it's 100 bucks.

>>3555274
Might make the Anamnetics a bit overpowered. Do we really want them to be that strong? I'd like it better if they were differentiated from mages in that they're essentially mundane people with very specific powers based on absurd trains of thought rather than distinctly non-mundane people with the ability to work their will in very broad ways. If you're fighting someone smart enough to argue against whatever principle you're using (numbers have no meaning, time is relative, etc) then they should get bonuses against your powers so that you have to think of more creative ways to apply them. Glimpsers/ananmesics should be people with weird and occasionally very decisive abilities, not gods. An arcane trickster, not a wizard.

One thing that should be decided is, does ignorance make someone more or less resistant to Glimpsing/Anamnetics? Are bible-thumpers and zealots easier or harder to affect with their powers? Personally I think it should make them less resistant so that the religious faction would be dangerous due to sheer numbers (with lower resistance to your abilities), the government faction would be dangerous due to superior tactics and technology (with average resistance to your abilities), and the intellectual faction would be dangerous due to high resistance against your powers.

>>3555333
Give me an example?

>>3555359
That is to say, all Anamnetics are presumably on the same essential side and aren't going to fight against each other very often, so we're going to want there to be enemies that can resist the player's powers without using said powers themselves.

>>3555359
Well, I think we're trying to deal with fundamental truths. It just seems that as you try to achieve more spectacular effects, you start to bump up against the other fundamental truths that you don't know about. So I think a target number system would work best.

For example, if we were to use a d10 system.

Affecting self = 2
Affecting an external inanimate object = 3
Affecting multiple external inanimate objects = 5
Affecting another person=6
Affecting multiple other persons=8

>>3555377

That can be done without opposed rolls.

Still, if we do introduce some ability to resist I don't think it should be based on the simple fact of belief or perception. Perhaps a view so fundamentally opposed to the Socratic view of truth would lead to this. Most mundane people wouldn't have this, and so wouldn't have resistance.

One way of looking at it is the Absolute, universal truth is so broad and wide reaching, it paradoxically includes all the fragments, in a logically impossible way. It is a truth beyond reason, beyond logic, beyond all this crap, and thus any apparent hypocrisy and difficulty between fragments doesn't actually matter.

>>3555377
Well, if we stick to the idea of limited, weird abilities, I think the conflict can be generated with perfectly normal enemies. Most anamnesics are not going to be soldiers, so if they're facing people with guns, they've got to come up with innovative ways to use their powers to escape, not just overrule whatever their enemies do.

>>3555434
So close-minded zealots would be harder to affect meaning that the religious faction would be more resistant to your powers and the government/mercenary factions would be better equipped and trained but have less resistance? I just want to make the type of enemy you're facing have a more direct impact on how you apply your powers.

I don't know enough about it to judge for myself, so how close are we to Unknown Armies?

>>3555452
Sounds promising. Someone who can mesmerize with words isn't going to be effective if he's being shot at.

"I think. Therefore, I am. You don't think, therefore you don't."

"You really believe that will work? I don't think-" *POOF*

>>3555470
Or if being shouted down by a religious zealot, or strangled by a mutant space squid.

200 posts is autosage, right? Somebody want to summarize and start a new thread? I would, but I've got to go...

>>3555513

Seconded. Need New Thread!

New Thread

>>3555879

>>3554706
Read the scifi short story "Glory". I don't have the author on me at the moment, but it's in "The best scifi and fantasy of the year, 2008, volume 2" if it helps.