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    File :1219420944.jpg-(90 KB, 640x887, warfare smaller rgb.jpg)
    90 KB Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:02 No.2400746  
    Ok, time for a proper strategy tabletop game. Not squad-level tactics, but a complete army set-up with bases of operation and supply-lines taken into account.

    I was thinking 17-18th Century technology (Muskets and Pike for the win), with the view of several players vying for national/continental domination.
    Rather than have unit-models per se, having markers for separate armies and fleets with their numbers, compositions and special abilities written down separately. Players would manoeuvre these markers, attempting to wage battle on their terms with landscape, supply and army-composition ultimately deciding who takes the field.

    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:07 No.2400776
    Meh, just play Diplomacy instead.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:14 No.2400833
    I have, but's it just feels all so flat and abstacted to me. Might as well be a grid of squares.
    I just felt I needed some more visceral.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:18 No.2400866
    Kitbash something out of that old Stalingrad board game?
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:20 No.2400882
    Europa Universalis III
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:22 No.2400900
    Yes that is the picture.

    ...Anybody else wish that Paradox and the Total War guys would just have a love baby?
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:23 No.2400903
    VASSAL online has a number of modules for chit-and-gameboard Strategies, you might look there? It'll also help with finding opponents.

    If you find a ruleset / scenario you like, post it, and I'll see about playing by wire against you.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:23 No.2400910
    When I read this the first thing that came to my mind was final fantasy (gb2/v/). The way that, in the old games at least, you could work out formations for your squad - putting spell casters at the back, for example. What you could do, OP, would be to have the players do this with their forces.
    For example, Jim's 3rd Army would have (on paper) all pike at the front and horse on the flanks. When his army marker met another player's both would write down their orders (pike: hold position, horse: charge adjacent flanks) and they'd then reveal and die would be rolled and a winner found. Bonuses, of course, for positioning and adequate supply and rest.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:25 No.2400923
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:38 No.2401012
    Perhaps coloured matchsticks to represent supply lines and player-agreed boarders?
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:42 No.2401037
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)12:49 No.2401069
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    Oh wow. This shit is awesome. So tempted to write a Legend of the Galactic Heroes variant...
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)13:35 No.2401381
    There is a book out there about historical miniatures wargaming that includes very well designed , generic r rules for historical battles. If only I could remember the title. It's not Warhammer Historical.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)13:46 No.2401430
    Woah woah woah! Someone else has watched that appart from me!? Brother!!

    It's a good idea. Maybe space battles would work better like this.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)13:50 No.2401456
    rolled 2 = 2

    Ugh. Historical gaming. Snore.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)13:54 No.2401469
    >>I was thinking 17-18th Century technology

    Have fun with your 2 week communication delay and constant fog of war.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)13:58 No.2401488

    Christ you're close-minded fucks, aren't you.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)14:02 No.2401505
    Maybe add in airships?
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)14:05 No.2401513
    maybe some people want to strategise with those constraints...
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)14:07 No.2401519
    Games are more about having fun than accurately portraying reality anon. Logistics in reality are extremely boring and dull and thus are cut out and ignored in most games.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)14:10 No.2401539
    Oh god yes. Europa Universalis has incredible depth but not enough fun carnage for my taste. On the other side, Total war has fun carnage and strategy, but not nearly the depth of EU.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)14:10 No.2401542
    OH YEAH! You are the greatest, anon, thank you!
    I'm totally making my group play this!
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)14:24 No.2401604
    Kreigsspiel seems to avoid this. Have a read through.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)15:13 No.2401841

    I think you have it backwards -- Kriegspiel avoids fun in favor of logistics.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)18:53 No.2403147
    Volley & Bayonet (Frank Chadwick / GDW) or Piquet? Or was this a smaller hardcover book? Featherstone did some similar stuff earlier.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)19:11 No.2403247
    Try GMT Games. They should have several games fitting both scale and time period. No Marlborough / Sun King ones though that I'm aware of. :(

    English Civil War, Thirty Years War, Frederick the Great, sure.

    Before the GMT games though, here's one from Avalanche Press, Soldier Kings.

    Most of these games should have at least the rules online for free with some sample pics of counters and maps.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)19:17 No.2403293
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    Try GMT Games. They should have several games fitting both scale and time period. No Marlborough / Sun King ones though that I'm aware of. :(

    English Civil War, Thirty Years War, Frederick the Great, sure.

    Before the GMT games though, here's one from Avalanche Press, Soldier Kings.

    Most of these games should have at least the rules online for free with some sample pics of counters and maps.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)19:26 No.2403351
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    GMT Games: http://www.gmtgames.com/
    One of the better successors to Avalon Hill.

    Thirty Years War: Europe in Agony, 1618-1648
    Looks like it's currently out of print, hopefully it won't be going for too much. Make sure to download the latest version of the living rules, they had some major problems with early printings.

    One in their usually excellent card driven games series, though not the strongest.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)20:36 No.2403844
    That's the thing, there aren't any logistics. One player acts as arbitor and offers odds on a given outcome through viewing the unfolding situation and using common sense.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)20:39 No.2403867
    OP here, thanks guys. Kreigsspiel is pretty much what I wanted. I'll see if my group could suffer playing and get back to you on it.
    While I was going for the 17-18th Century technology, I was actually going to set it in a fantasy setting; spiltting the group into two sets of 3 players who'd invent a nation (with ideals, history, landmarks and tactics) and pitch them against each other.
    >> Anonymous 08/22/08(Fri)21:07 No.2404046
    Serious bump.

    I wonder if Airships could be included in KS.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)00:45 No.2405502
    I want to play some Piquet
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)03:50 No.2406348
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    Wanted to try Kriegsspiel ever since I read a mention of it in a wonderful illustrated version of H.G. Well's Little Wars book as a kid.

    That site's pretty good but I'm looking for either a good intro PDF or a book.

    The Appendix is on Kriegsspiel. If you've not read it it's *the* ancestor of miniature wargames and one of the influences on RPGs. And it's free, being in the public domain, though I think the illustrations really add to this short book.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)04:02 No.2406424
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    I'd suggest posting to the forums at Piquet.com or on the Piquet Yahoo Group. Most HMGS and other similar wargaming conventions (in the US at least) should have a game or more of Piquet and I know there are a good number of Brits and some folks in India who play Piquet.

    Piquet's a damn fine set of multi-period (if a bit $$) historical miniature rules. Mixes up the traditional UGOIGO turn sequence and can make play a lot more like the challenges faced by real army commanders. Fun use of custom army decks to model national characteristics, D&D dice and poker chips.

    Piquet also has a *great* set of campaign rules that play even more like Poker on Acid with Guns. Theatre of War. They do NOT have to be used with Piquet, could easily be adapted to other miniatures rules and non-historicals.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)08:22 No.2407668
    Thanks. I'll look into that.

    What with all the hatred for historical wargaming? Are there no Napoleons amoung us?
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)08:24 No.2407677
    Maybe the 90's/00's have brought changes, but all the historical wargames I've ever seen have rulebooks that look like college textbooks and a bag of cardboard chits the size of a man's two fists.
    That just...doesn't interest me.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)08:37 No.2407730
    That's why Kreigsspiel is my suggestion. Despite being invented in 1800s it's still better than anything since because it has about 4 rules that the players don't really need to remember - an Umpire judges tactical situations individually and works out the odds from his experience and a result is given from a single percentile dicerole.
    40k would be some much better like this.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)08:40 No.2407742
    Hmmm. Rather not have a game that requires a third party judge. A third party judge may make a game more satisfying, but it's almost impossible to eliminate claims of bias, in addition to making it a three-player game, except one guy doesn't get to play.
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 08/23/08(Sat)08:57 No.2407793
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    So the DM just decides what the chance is that someone wins? He just gives a number based on what he thinks it should be?
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)09:08 No.2407832
    He fills the same role as a DM. I quite like the idea of inventing scenarios and describing the flow of battle; Kriegsspiel, played properly, has the Umpire in a kind of story-telling role and you can emphasise the dramatic turn and heroism of certain units should you choose.
    Depending on the situation. If the reds control a hill with three units and the blue player decides to try capture the hill and moves two units in to do so the Umpire would have to consider that the blue attack would be, firstly, uphill and, secondly, against superior numbers. That considered he might suggest that blue only have a 10% chance of capturing the hill, and a further 20% of contesting half of it. Failing to role in this 30% margin would mean that blue forces are repulsed.
    It just means being fair and using common sense - just like every other DM should.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)10:45 No.2408252
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    Doesn't should half bad, actually. I might make my next dungeon crawl work on similar lines.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)11:48 No.2408601
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)11:53 No.2408616

    This pic is what the human kingdom should be like any fantasy world with various races.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)12:01 No.2408650
    But now all I can see is the 'Last stand of men and elves' scene from the first LotR movie but napoleonic..
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)12:03 No.2408658
    These are all over the place.
    They call them "Wargames"

    Your playing peices are squares of cardboard, and they often are played on hex maps.

    You don't hear about 20-somethings playing them, because they simply don't appeal to them.

    No miniature painting, rule-of-cool, or grim-darkness
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)12:07 No.2408666
    I think these facts were established a while ago.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)12:43 No.2408835
    My group said they'd be interested if they got to build their own nations. I think it'd be cool to run a fictional history of waring contries, the player-generals gaining experience and special abilties with each battle.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)12:51 No.2408872
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    Not always about the hexes.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)13:05 No.2408936
    Hexcommand if you get your head around their personal variables.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)13:18 No.2409004
    I just read through the Kriegsspiel site and I think that'd work. Set a technology level and a baisic starting point and have players run with their own plots and rivalries.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)14:17 No.2409354
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    I had a chat with my group and they voted on having a post-Napoleonic/early Industiral Revolution style setting, possibly including trains and steamtanks.

    It'll be 2 versus 3 with me as Umpire.
    The former are the Principality of Vilféin, a proto-industrial Monarchy, while the latter three wish to be Balamia, a sprawling agrarian Republic.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)14:20 No.2409380
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    I think I'll just leave this with the OP.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)14:23 No.2409402
    How about Epic: 40000 with supply lines and bases of operation tacked on to a strategic map, and battles taking place with these things taken into account?
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)14:27 No.2409435
    If you're playing Epic, you may as well just go WARPACT/NATO Fulda Gap.

    mmm, tacnuk.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)14:28 No.2409440
    It's the same with diplomacy; it's so abstract that it's not really strategy at all. Might as well be a grid of squares.. chequers with dice.
    Wouldn't take take decades to run though?
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)14:31 No.2409458
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    Putting creativity and wargaming together.. I'm impressed, kid.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)14:34 No.2409479

    You could do this with scifi, it seems like, and get something that ends up being like Alpha Centauri.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)15:16 No.2409751
    Yeah, or navel-style space operas.

    Let us know how it goes.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)15:53 No.2409999
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    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)16:08 No.2410095

    How would you represent Fog of War in a Hex-map boardgame?
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)16:30 No.2410260
    You either don't have it. Or, like Kreigsspiel, have an Umpire - a GM with all the force positions, giving away only pieces of info when the time is right.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)16:42 No.2410362
    I don't know if that's cool or lame. I guess it would be like being a DM though: you have to be the right kind of person to do it.
    >> hamster boy 08/23/08(Sat)18:28 No.2411098
    The old Starship Troopers game had a paper map that looked like the playing board, the Bug player used it to secretly dig tunnels under the map. it isnt perfect, but its a good way of keeping track of hidden units. best: game master.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)18:32 No.2411133
    What series/movie is that from, pray tell? I mean...

    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)18:46 No.2411203
    Vanity Fair.

    My sister watched it.. yes, that's right... my sister..

    Deffo running Kreigspeel, shit looks cash.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)19:16 No.2411365
    Right, quick question. With Kriegsspiel I intend to work on the 1:7500 scale so, effectively:
    * 1 mm = 10 paces
    * 1 cm = 100 paces
    * 10 cm = 1000 paces (roughly half a mile)

    I can't work out how large I need to make my units though. If the frontage of a prussian attack column was 75 paces, this'd make my average marker 7.5x7.5mm. Which, admittedly, is quite small. Does this sound right to you?
    Or is it 1.25X.75?
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)20:50 No.2411807
    No one knows the game well enough to help you
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)20:57 No.2411846
    now i'm no expert, but if you want a pure strategy game that has things like supply lines, money, different types of leaders and different units with differen't qualities, i suggest you go buy Empires at Arms, it does this very very well, as far as i remember it even has a landscape factor so some places are easier to defend than others, but i may be remembering wrong. It also has an awesome diplomacy phase where people go outside and talk to eachother, and discuss strategies, this leads to severe backstabbing etc. etc. if you can find some people willing to play on a regular basis.

    Empires at Arms:
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)21:01 No.2411865
    >I was thinking 17-18th Century technology (Muskets and Pike for the win), with the view of several players vying for national/continental domination.

    >I was thinking 17-18th Century technology (Muskets and Pike for the win),

    > 17-18th Century technology (Muskets and Pike for the win)

    >17-18th Century technology

    >Muskets and Pike for the win

    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)21:05 No.2411884
    why the rage? firearms/muskets were first used around the 15th-16th century and pikes were used up untill around the 17th century, sure OP may be alittle of but come on stop being such a pedantic fag.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)21:08 No.2411905
    I'm not off at all. Pikes were the weapon of choice in the 17thC and used up to the end of the 18th. Mr.Fffff should go read some books and fuck himself.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)21:11 No.2411927
    They were actually used on ships to repel boarders into the 1800s as well.
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)21:13 No.2411939
    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)21:13 No.2411940

    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)21:15 No.2411960
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    >> Anonymous 08/23/08(Sat)21:32 No.2412066
    Same poster
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)01:14 No.2413464
    Doublesided chits, you can examine the underside of your own chits, but OPFOR can't. Come contact, or reveal, chips get flipped.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)01:17 No.2413487


    Kriegspiel Blocks
    A range of metal blocks for use with the historic Prussian war game


    10mm x 10mm (set of 4)



    12mm x 6mm (set of 4)



    9mm x 6mm (set of 4)



    9mm x 5mm (set of 4)



    5mm x 5mm (set of 4)

    K6 Counterweight - 13x13x3mm white metal square gaming piece. Glue counters from boardgames to this counterweight to help prevent them from moving when you don't want them to. A

    Kriegspiel starter brigade

    9 infantry battalions,1 jaeger battalion,2 cavalry regiments,2 artillery batteries,2 exchange pieces,& skirmishers and outposts. £16.00
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)01:34 No.2413601

    I actually like that idea a lot. Maybe you could also have scout units that flip enemy chits in a certain range if you take a 'reconnaissance' action with them.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)03:09 No.2414123
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    Two developments from Kriegsspiel that I've seen are VLB (?) or Variable Length Bound games and Braunstein games.

    VLB - players issues orders, ref adjudicates how much of each order happens
    Braunstein - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wesely

    Piquet is partially a response to VLB.

    Matrix games may fit in there somewhere.

    I believe folks have been running fantasy (including both fantasy genre and alt.history or fake historical-esque nations) nation campaigns using Braunsteins.

    And yes I consider The Mouse that Roared a mustsee for this type of idea, along with Prisoner of Zenda, Flashman, and Chitty Chitty Bang Band.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)05:02 No.2414809
    You see, I read this but I have no idea what troop-type each refers to or if they're using the modern or antique scale.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)05:16 No.2414904
    Thanks, this all looks very cool.

    The inclusion of RP and Wargaming is something i'd like to explore. I won;t be happy until I have my players wearing silly hats.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)05:46 No.2415061
    The unit has a frontage of "LINE" and a depth of "ATTACK COLUMN". So you can turn it to represent its frontage in manouvres. Its "depth" is theoretical, or its rear area / manouvre depth rather than line depth.
    >> Historian. !b6Jq6KEjMo 08/24/08(Sun)05:46 No.2415063
    Who says we aren't already, white man.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)05:49 No.2415073
    why no comment on empires at arms guys, it sounds like it has most of what you want, why the hate!!
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)05:52 No.2415086
    This I understood, mr.making-it-perfectly-clear. However your conscise explanation (with capitals no less!) still hasn't answered by problem.
    >> Historian. !b6Jq6KEjMo 08/24/08(Sun)05:57 No.2415103
    I think people mostly meant "tactical" when they said "strategy". Such is the sad fate of nations.

    Speaking of which, who likes Operational Warfare? Neither Strategy nor Tactics?
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)06:06 No.2415134
    oh... but OP said he didn't want squad-level tactics? i must admit i am confuzzled as to what is being aimed for with this game?
    >> Historian. !b6Jq6KEjMo 08/24/08(Sun)06:13 No.2415154
    Fucking illiterates:
    A battalion in line has a frontage of 250 paces, but only a depth of four or five paces at the most, so we would be thinking of something about the size of a fine pencil lead. Reisswitz resolved this problem by giving the symbols the correct frontage for troops in line. In the case of infantry blocks the depth of the block represents the frontage for Prussian infantry in attack column (75 paces).

    250pc @ 1:7500: 25mm
    KS uses 1/2 Bn, thus
    150pc @ 1:7500: 12.5mm LINE and
    75pc @ 1:7500: 6.25mm COLUMN

    see Irregular's 12x6mm KS blocks for 1/2Bn.

    How many fucking times do you need this answered before you engage in some basic literacy and maths?
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)06:18 No.2415166
    Squad-level = skirmish
    Manouvre elements: fire-team, section, file

    Tactics is suboperational, all areas where range of direct fire weapons may have a reasonable impact on combat and dispositions
    Manouvre elements: platoon, company, battalion

    Operational is when direct fire weapons ranges cease to matter (2km range scale +)
    Manouvre elements: battalion, regiment, brigade, division

    Strategy: the massing of force to produce political result
    Manouvre elements: Corps, Army, Army Group.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)06:23 No.2415177
    thanks alot for the clarification of those terms, could you also what exactly it is the op wants to make? i mean it says strategy tabletop game, not squad-level tactics, but apaprently it's not strategy but tactics? so a non-squad level tactical game? or a strategic game with tactical battles above the squad level?
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)06:38 No.2415210
    OP was originally asking about Strategy, note how he posted Europa Universalis III picture? He could even mean "Grand Strategy" which is the mobilisation of a nation state for political ends.

    However, someone brought up Kriegsspiel (which is a Tactical game, Manouvre elements being 1/2 BN (2x Co.). Then we all hurr durped.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)06:45 No.2415231
    I think OP was using the more common destinction between Strategy and Tactics, the former being the planning and conduct of a war, and a latter being maneauvers to gain the objectives laid down by strategy.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)06:49 No.2415247
    Brain farted. Well, considering the scape of the normal KS game, it could well be both strategic and tactical. Map sizes are usually something like 12 A3 sheets put together. Then you have to deal with supply-lines and fortification and all jazz..
    Best of both worlds?
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)06:55 No.2415270
    Thanks, sweetheart.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)06:56 No.2415272
    Nope, its still barely operational. KS runs on a rolling virtual clock, with conflicts not expected to take more than three-four days of game time. Shortest Operational simulations I've seen are 6hr turns (and that in *Modern* helibourne conflict). Means you're only getting 16 turns out of KS at the Longest KS, and the Shortest Operational simulation.

    Most modern sandbox games are equivalent to KS, but at a larger unit scale and done on sketch-maps instead of ordinance (as the lie of the land becomes less relevant).
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)07:01 No.2415292
    I read a siege game that took 8 weeks of ingame time with turns based each day or so. It's the ammount of troops the players wish to command at a given time that desides the scale - It can go from barely operational to pretty much Strategic.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)07:03 No.2415294
    How about this then - an industrial totalwar scenario where the frontlines are drawn on a continental map with drymarkers over perspex. Players designate where troops, armour and supplies should go and attempt to push forward towards their opponent's capitols.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)07:09 No.2415305
    Strategic. If you add in Homefront, Economics, Politics, then it becomes Grand Strategy.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)07:26 No.2415356
    Grand strategies are for pedants. I demand action!
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)07:50 No.2415447
    well it's not like it'd be impossible to combine tactical and strategic, you'd just need two tables, one where you moved around your big armies in a strategic sense, deployed supply lines, deployed new troops, set up counters for whatever etc. etc., and then you could have a table where you did the combats on, it'd probably be the best if the tactical landscape was one you could put together in different ways, depending on the square that was being fought on, so if you're on a small mountainous region, the tactical landscape will be a small one with alot of inaccesible squares, so you'd be forced into bottlenecking etc. etc. and it'd be easier to defend from large armies with a smaller army, if it's a large mountainous region it'd be easier to be overrun by a larger force. then you could have the same for plains and hills, with small-medium-large areas having different tactical-battleground landscapes, possibly use a system where you click together different pieces randomly so you get a new battleground each time. It'd be a large game though and turns would take a long time if you have say 4 skirmishes in one turn. Maybe have an option where both players could agree on not doing the tactical part, and then roll dice for it instead, to do small battles faster, and if one wanted tactical and the other wanted to do it fast, you could get the other players to judge or roll a flip a coin.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)07:50 No.2415449
    You could do the landscapes either as 'real' landscapes, warhammer style with small polystyrene hills or whatever, or you could just make a squared or hexed map with different designations on each hex, higher ground, +1 if defending from the square facing down, that way you could run your forces around him and avoid the +1 if you had fast skirmishers, inaccesible, like with mountains, flat, no bonuses or penalties, +1 to attack for mounted units, if there are two levels of elevation in the way of a unit, it can't be shot at by musketeers, etc. etc.
    I guess this is all standard stuff, but i'm not much of a wargamer, so i havn't tried that many of them.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)09:37 No.2415954
    I'd suggest the Strategic Board for representing the armies with just like a single marker/figurine on a geographical map to detail supply lines and enemy positions and then the Tactical Board for the wargame style battles when two forces collide.

    And then a nonrandom card system mixed with dialogue for grand strategy (diplomacy, trade, industry and the like)
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)12:04 No.2416508
    Why not just play Cossacks 2? That has tons of killing and quite a bit of diplomacy ect.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)12:45 No.2416789
    Piquet, Kriegsspiel and the like offer and unrivalled impression of simulation.

    They also do a good job at CC issues.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)12:59 No.2416914
    CC? Close combat?
    In the 1:7500 scale would the ranges of muskets even been shown? I can't seem to find much about ranges of artillery and the like on the site.
    I guess it'll just be some wiki-fluffing for me.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)13:17 No.2417033
    Effective range is that of all historical small arms, 150pc. See: http://www.scotwars.com/html/textonly/equip_smoothbore_musketry.htm

    Discharge at 30pc of a line of fire produced 30% casualties. (As you would know, this is enough to render a unit unfit for further battle.)

    For artillery you're on your own.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)13:21 No.2417064
    CC from CCCI
    Command Control Communication Information
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)13:23 No.2417070
    So your engagement range is 3mm-10mm for infantry. Infantry engagements in fire lasted less than 15 minutes; breaking due to morale.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)13:29 No.2417105
    300 yards for cannon. What the converstion to feet and then into gamescale is I don't know
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)13:56 No.2417274
    1pc ~= 1yd ~= 1m
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)13:57 No.2417288
    I like the flexibility of squad-based games since your choice in weapons and force composition can really make a difference in the outcome of the fight, and I was wondering how I would be able to do something like that at a tactical level.

    So far every tactical level game I've played has been a board wargame with no unit customization, and your forces pre-selected for you from a scenario.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)14:11 No.2417368
    30pc would only be 3mm in gamescale. That's some pretty itty-bitty stuff there. I suppose the order to your battalions would be to either maintain disance or get as close as possible.
    What kind of casualties would firing at 150pc merit?
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)14:33 No.2417484
    I'm reading here that smoothbore musketry could, in ideal situation, deliver 30% accuracy on targets 200 yards away.
    /k/ommandos! Get in here.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)16:06 No.2418002
    I like the look of KS. I think I might get out my saw and cut some pieces from wood.
    What dimensions are needed? 1:7500 scale isn't it.. so, 12.5x6.25mm for the half battalion markers. Where on the site does it mention scales for artillery and horse?
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)16:35 No.2418182
    The attenuation goes from 50% hit at 30pc down to 3-20% hit at 150pc.

    Volleys at 30pc could cause 30% attrition, however at 150pc, entire *volleys* could miss, or cause non-casualty wounds. At 150pc at 1/2 Bn. scale, you're talking morale-break with forced retreat / rout; rather than rendered ineffective
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)16:37 No.2418198
    Tactical games don't involve load outs. Tactics is about dispositions. I suppose if you were tactics gaming a US unit, you could spend "support" points on different load outs of support pre-battle, and call in final defensive fires at the cost of VP?

    Tactics is about order of march, disposition, and deployment of reserves rather than weapons load-outs.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)16:44 No.2418252
    1:7500 is the modern scale and the marker sizes they give on the site are to the 19th century scale, so you'd have to convert. I'd do it for you but i've had far to much to drink.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)16:47 No.2418279
    Thanks. I still can't get over how small the scaling is: 150pc is still only 1.5cm(!). I guess you'd issue orders prior to the battle as to whether your battalions are to fire their first volley at long, medium or short distances. Whether they should advance or hold certain postions.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)16:52 No.2418316

    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)16:59 No.2418362
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    1. 1 squadron Hussars
    2. 1 squadron Uhlans
    3. 1 squadron Dragoons
    4. 1 squadron Cuirassiers
    5. An Infantry half-battalion (450 men)
    6. A half battery (foot artillery)
    7. Wagons for an artillery battery
    8. A half-battery (horse artillery)
    9. A cavalry troop, small post or patrol etc.
    10. A skirmish platoon
    11. 8 pontoon wagons
    12. A battalion of Pioneers
    13. Small Exchange Piece (losses of 1/8)
    14. Larger Exchange piece (losses of 1/3)
    15. An NCO and 10 riders
    16. 1 officer and 21 riders
    17. An NCO and 10 men
    18. 1 officer and 25 men
    19. 1 or 2-man cavalry post
    20. 1 or 2-man infantry post
    21. Supply column/half battalion line formation

    You might want to simplify thing to maybe only one or two sets of horse units (light and heavy).
    "The sizes shown here will not be exact, as it is very difficult to get the pixels to match centimetres exactly, but they are close. Cavalry blocks are 1cm square. Half battalion blocks are 1.25 x .75 cm. Half batteries, wagons etc. are 1 x .75 cm."

    So if the half battalion blocks are, for you, [12.5 x 6.25mm] rather than [12.5 x 7.5mm] you might want to scale down the others - but I'd actually reccomend scaling the Half Battalions up to the 7.5mm depth for ease of manufacture.
    Also, props for making your own stuff!
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)17:00 No.2418371
    Look, we've been over this. It's not strategy, tactics or anything really. A miserable pile of abstracts and lengthly play-time.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)17:05 No.2418416
    Rimmer: And then... would you believe it?? He rolled a 4 and a 2 and I rolled a 6 and a 3!!!
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)17:15 No.2418482

    Best game of 40k I'd ever played.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)17:23 No.2418528
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    God speed you Black Emperor.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)18:12 No.2418875
    My thanks.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)19:15 No.2419301
    Bumping for anonymous delivering.
    >> Kun-Kun !3GqYIJ3Obs 08/24/08(Sun)19:17 No.2419319
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)19:20 No.2419336

    I always wanted to know how to give someone a proper rimmer!
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)19:27 No.2419383
    So .... RISK?
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)19:29 No.2419396
    Just be sure to post pictres of the finished markers. I can't wait to see what you'll do with them.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)19:35 No.2419441
    Red and Blue teams, or something more extravagant?

    Also, does anyone have a link to an archive of unit-symbols I can paint?
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)19:58 No.2419591
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    The smallest 'army' (i.e. a military formation of 2 or more corps) you can have is 40,000 men-at-arms. If it's at least 500 men to a battalion, at the units are measured in half-battalions then you need to cut and paint somewhere in the region of 120 individual units, per side.

    Good luck.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)20:25 No.2419766

    Right, Infantry are going to be reprisented with diagonal quartered, Cavalry will be diagonal halves and Artillery will be a central spot.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)20:31 No.2419792
    NATO is quite popular, you may want to use a historical oob for your unit numbering scheme and name your is units after fruit and flowerss
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)21:03 No.2419988
    Thanks, I'll look into those.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)21:17 No.2420080
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)21:21 No.2420104
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)21:24 No.2420128
    This IS a thread of substantial quality.

    However as a filthy RPGing fluffmonger faggot, I have nothing to contribute save for my praise, and urging for more of this content to be filled out.
    >> Anonymous 08/24/08(Sun)21:28 No.2420146
    APP-6A in wikipedia.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)02:38 No.2421849
    bump for fuckwin /tg/ Kriegsspiel.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)04:12 No.2422386
    OP's getting his players to invent nations in a napoleonic/early indstiral revolution style.
    >The former are the Principality of Vilféin, a proto-industrial Monarchy, while the latter three wish to be Balamia, a sprawling agrarian Republic.

    So fluffkin, what'd you make?
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)05:32 No.2422843
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    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)05:54 No.2422940
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)06:17 No.2423051
    cut cut chop chop paint paint

    damn this is hard work
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)06:55 No.2423237
    If you're a real bitch, you'll provide only limited survey maps to your players, and keep the accurate 1:7500 to yourself.

    Oh, and "loosely" update them on events transpiring. Perfect knowledge is an illusion.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)07:05 No.2423260
    Oh yeah, and what naming / colour / unit des scheme are you using for OOB?

    Square divisions? Triangular? Brigades?
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)07:10 No.2423274
    That's the gist. I'll have *everything* plus notes, and they'll have fairly sub-par maps.
    "Oh, trying to take field artillery though a swamp? You really should have done more Reconnaissance; it's what Hussars are for y'know."
    "Bwha ha ha ha ha!"

    As am Umpire I'd regulate exactly what the player can see and how their troops move: Moving your left flank is one thing to say, but first you need to get your message across that hill.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)07:10 No.2423278
    The standard unit will be the half-battalion.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)07:29 No.2423317

    The establishment of dispositions and the timely use of reinforcements is the key to battle.

    Preprogrammed orders such as, "Attack by opportunity in the following manner without losing contact on your right flank: Advance 1Bn forward across each regiment, reinforce successful regiments by a commitment of all regimental reserves, relying on your divisional reserves to deal with counter attacks. Commit divisional reserves piecemeal while relaying instructions on the size and quality of the counter attack for specific instructions or further reserves. Communicate that these orders are understood, and communicate when you have arranged with division on your right regarding maintaining flank connection.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)07:34 No.2423334
    You sound like just the kind of player I hope mine will become. No more move and shoot bullshit.
    It's going to be tough to balance causal orders such as that; I don't what to give unfair priorities to one side or the other.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)07:40 No.2423355
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    So, do we get napoleonic steamtanks or what?
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)07:46 No.2423372
    My players voiced an interest for some fictional elements, so I might include them as painfully slow but well armoured field artillery.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)07:57 No.2423414
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    This suddenly came to mind...
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)08:01 No.2423424
    I was more talking about if the organisation would be *square* as in 4Bn per Rgt. or *triangular* as in 3Bn per Rgt.?
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)08:05 No.2423442
    Square: 4 battalions to a brigade, 10 brigades to a devision.
    Although, I'm willing to allow my players to organise forces how they wish.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)08:07 No.2423449

    Why do I suddenly have the Urge to build a Gargant that looks like that?
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)08:07 No.2423453
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    My officers.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)08:09 No.2423458
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    "I do it for da boyz." ;)
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)08:29 No.2423525
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    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)08:34 No.2423538
    I'm getting more of a FF:T/war of the lions feel here. I love fictional wars with plausable motives and strategies rather than just, 'lol, I march my men against the forces of evil.'
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)08:47 No.2423572
    Run age of subordinate commands as a measure of experience. Or run such small games as there's no need for subordinate commands per-se, just distant implementing bodies.

    Or... Have More Players.

    0620, Fred: I want your division to hold at all costs the fortified farm sw of the Appleby Church steeple approx 2.25mi and between the lie of hill 302 and the curve in the Chanson-Raleigh road for four hours. All losses are acceptable as this covers a withdrawal of greater forces.

    I expect at least one hour warning of expected breaks in your position. Withdrawal is unacceptable regardless of loss.
    yours, James.

    0700, James: I am refusing your orders on the grounds that a division with be unable to withstand simultanous attacks from the developing routes of march my scouts have indicated. Instead I am making a stand in the groves approximately 1mi N of your indicated position. I believe that taking this disposition will ensure the spirit of your orders is executed. Yours, Fred.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)08:55 No.2423601
    Sounds good. It's going to be 2 versus 3 (or I might make the third player a seond umpire) so I hope that kind of action will appear.
    I worry that my players might not get their heads around the fact they can't just go over and discuss their moves, but have to pass messages via courier (i.e me) with journey time and all.
    I might be nice and give out semaphore technology...
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)09:10 No.2423654
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    I'd only have semaphores between cities, for historical accuracy. But seeing the scale of the game, you can probably use that.
    Flares or cannon-fire, perhaps, could be used to indicate general commands - but you'd have to either agree beforehand what they meant or send out messages with that information (which could be captured by an enemy).
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)09:56 No.2423846
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    Of a jonathan strange & mr.norrell variety?
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)13:53 No.2424808
    I don't know what that'd really give to the game other than 'no fuck you' abilities to the players and generally overturning well-placed plans with arbitary magic.
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)15:16 No.2425354
    it's a good point
    >> Anonymous 08/25/08(Mon)19:23 No.2427043
    remember to detach some skirmishers and scouts to capture messengers.
    >> Anonymous 08/26/08(Tue)00:45 No.2429103
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    I almost forgot Mighty Empires by Games Workshop. Dunno how good the new rules are but the terrain pieces look kinda neat and would be good if you don't want to make your own terrain hexes.

    And the original rules are online for free.


    Warmaster may have campaign rules too. Not sure if either of these would be detailed enough for the OP tho.

    http://www.rickpriestley.com/ (yes, THAT Rick Priestley, he wrote Warmaster)
    >> Anonymous 08/26/08(Tue)05:08 No.2430811
    Warmaster looks okay, but its fucked up with GW fluff. Plus, if I'm going small, I'm going 6mm / 2mm.

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