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  • File :1210358138.jpg-(85 KB, 600x750, paladin.jpg)
    85 KB Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:35 No.1694610  
    Hi /tg/.

    I have a paladin in my current game that's good. Really good, too good. So far this paladin is actually living up to being Lawful Good and not stupid, so I'm going to actually need tactics and not just relying on Lawful Stupid to do my dirty work.

    What's a good way to put an intelligent paladin in danger of falling? The nastier the better.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:37 No.1694622

    he sounds like probably a better player than you
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:37 No.1694625
    Being forced to work for an authority that he later discovers to be corrupt and opressive. Make him choose between his code and virtue.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:37 No.1694627

    I'm the DM, numbnuts. The point of the exercise is to challenge the paladin.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:38 No.1694630
    Agreed. Why even try to force that?
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)14:38 No.1694632
    You want a Lawful Good paladin? I've got two words for you:

    Knight. Templar.
    Your paladin should care more for the greater good than in individual life. While going out of the way to save someone isn't something a paladin should ignore, sometimes you have to cut off the arm to stave off infection.

    Evil is the infection, the world is the body. You're the scalpel, so start cutting.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:39 No.1694633
    There are other ways to challenge a paladin other then putting in danger of breaking his oath.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:39 No.1694634
    Don't be a dick, challenge the Paladin's ability to help people. Not his ability to stay a Paladin.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:40 No.1694638
    No, it sounds like you're a dick and trying to force the Paladin to fall
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:42 No.1694658
    If he's really intelligent as you say, test him by issuing challenges that go beyond the adhering code that any dipshit player can follow. Test his faith and virtues at their core level.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:43 No.1694661
    This is why we can't have nice things, like players who actually roleplay and have interesting characters that are not one dimensional fucked up people. How about you just make a nice story, or perhaps have a challanging foe for the party to overcome rather than pick on the person playing the paladin.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:44 No.1694667
    You're a bad DM for trying to screw the paladin into falling. Stop now, let someone else take the chair, you're unfit.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:44 No.1694670

    But don't most people think that playing a paladin means you're supposed to be picked on?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:45 No.1694672
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    Falling is not the final destination of every paladin. Don't try to force it if that doesn't seem to be the direction the player wants to go.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)14:46 No.1694678
    Well, I know if I were in the paladin's place, I'd want my moral fiber to be tested. I mean, isn't that why roleplayers play paladins? To see how the DM can think of new ways to test their character?

    I think maybe one too many of the people in this thread fell as Paladins...
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:47 No.1694687
    That's the problem. Most DMs are fucking retarded or something, and think because a Paladin has a code, it's the DM's duty to make them fall.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:47 No.1694689
    No one picks a class because they want to get picked on. Otherwise, Retarded Pig Farmer would be the most popular class ever.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:47 No.1694692
    I thought that the point of RPing was to have fun. Maybe that character wants to actually play a good guy.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:48 No.1694695


    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:48 No.1694698
    No. Go die.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:49 No.1694704
         File :1210358944.png-(141 KB, 500x561, paladin button.png)
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    You are a terrible dm.
    >> Kasrkin Mehlman 05/09/08(Fri)14:49 No.1694706
    Damn, these threads make me think my group is one of the ONLY ones that doesn't make 'fuck the paladin' part of their mantra.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:50 No.1694710
    Have the paladin's wife turn out to be an evil lich.

    If he doesn't smite her he falls.

    If he smites her she TEARS OUT HIS HEART
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:51 No.1694718
    No. Not everyone who plays a Paladin wants to be tested. Personally, it gets on my nerves when DMs try to force me into a situation where I have to fall whenever I play a Paladin.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:51 No.1694721
    Everytime a GM wants to challege a paladin, it's always in terms of non-combat challenge.

    For once, just once, why not challenge a paladin with a really fucking hard monster to kill, instead of "So there's this woman who was raped by orcs..."
    >> Inquisitor Angricus !IT5VxStGLw 05/09/08(Fri)14:52 No.1694723

    No, most people who play the paladin do it to do just that. Not to fall, but to play a paladin. A good guy, a genuinely good guy for whom the only end goal is being just and fair.

    Would you say you play a cleric to be morally tested? Unlikely. Clerics have the same stringent restrictions on their alignment, though they don't necessarily fall they will lose their power if they violate their god's commands. And if done consistently or if they fall one (or two if directly on their god's alignment) steps away their god forsakes them completely.

    But no one tries to make the cleric fall. Everyone HAS to make the paladin fall, but DMs don't go actively hunting down difficult Catch 22 moral decisions for a cleric. But a paladin? Holy shit, fucking paladin!
    >> Kasrkin Mehlman 05/09/08(Fri)14:52 No.1694728

    Like the one tale of the level 7 Paladin against an epic level Orc cleric? Or whatever it was. Been a while since I read it.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)14:53 No.1694730
    The fact that a paladin has a code is reason enough to test it. Any roleplayer worth his salt should welcome a challenge such as that, and not just paladin. If you've got a rogue who's always looking out for himself, test that against an NPC he likes. You've got a monk with Vow of Pacifism or whatnot, have him placed in a situation where the only way out is by breaking that vow and experiencing the ramifications. And I don't mean the "Oh no, I'm now debuffed" ramifications, I mean the "Oh, my character has vowed never to kill a living being, and has now killed." ramifications.

    The idea that a paladin loses powers after a fall is just some stupid gameplay gimmick that was created to keep players in check and make things simple for foolish DMs. The paladin falling should have more than "Oh, I can't smite evil" it should be something more along the lines of a genuine moral change, and have genuine in character consequences.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:54 No.1694735
    Leave that poor paladin alone. Do you try to force your druids to teach the druidic language or trick your monks into being chaotic so they have to change class? You should feel ashamed of yourself.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:54 No.1694740
    For fuck's sake.
    If the paladin is played well, let it continue to be played well.
    If he fucks it up and goes into Lawful Stupid, then you can do whatever you want.
    But don't go out of your way to make him lose all of his useful class features and ruin his character just because "paladins are meant to fall".
    >> Inquisitor Angricus !IT5VxStGLw 05/09/08(Fri)14:55 No.1694741
    Except that's not how it is. When a DM says he wants to "morally challenge" a paladin, he so rarely means "I want to make it so that sometimes doing the right thing requires self sacrifice." He means "how can I make the most contrived situation possible to ensure the maximum paladin falling efficiency." which is what is more than likely occurring here.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)14:55 No.1694742

    I do. I never pulled off the druid one, but I got a monk to change into CN and end up committing suicide by charging a pit fiend. Good times.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)14:56 No.1694747
    >Would you say you play a cleric to be morally tested?
    Yes. As I said, every class--no, every character-- should have their way of life tested. Roleplaying is about more than "Oh, let's go kill sum kobolds guise!"

    It should be about a group of adventurers walking the earth. They should make mistakes and learn from them, they shouldn't just be killing orcs and taking treasure. A roleplaying game is like a story. And a story sucks without character growth.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)14:58 No.1694752
    Oh, well in that case, Fuck the DM.

    I want moral challenges for every character, so long as they aren't solely contrived to make me fall. As I've said before, the PCs are Big Damned Heroes, and as DM it's your job to engineer Big Damned Heroes moments, and one way to do so is by having them go against their beliefs and come out on top.
    >> Inquisitor Angricus !IT5VxStGLw 05/09/08(Fri)15:00 No.1694755
    That part was more a rant directed at the people that masturbate over giving Paladins 'difficult decisions'. By which I mean Choice A leads to falling and Choice B leads to crippling and falling.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:01 No.1694766
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    This is why, when I want to play a Paladin, I just cross class a fighter and a cleric.
    >> Lil piece o´fluff 05/09/08(Fri)15:02 No.1694773
    Paladins shouldn´t fall just because, goddamnit.

    If you want to challenge Paladins, give them true challenges. The Paladin´s real challenge resides in self-sacrifice, not in putting him in catch-22s. Paladins in movies and books are Paladins not because they obey retarded rules, but because they have a moral standard they respect and enforce UPON THEMSELVES FIRST.

    Challenge the Paladin´s courage, self-sacrifice and strength of all kinds (brute force, mental resilience to corruption, wishes for retaliation, etc).

    Paladins are meant to be the wall that stands between the weak and the evil. If you want to challenge the Paladin, you should be making him or her struggle to remain in his post no matter what is thrown at him. Putting him into a position where he is a wall between two evils is just you being a son of a bitch, and not the good kind.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:03 No.1694779
    Thank you. It's never about "is the Paladin truly Paladin material" and more of a "How can I force him into losing all his powers."

    I actually don't mind when a Paladin's mettle is tested, to see if he's really all that he should be. Not that he's forced into some sort of convoluted catch 22 where in it's fall or fall.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:03 No.1694781
    It's one thing to test a paladin. It's another thing to set out with the clear goal of making them fall, which pretty much takes all the fun out of playing.

    OP's post might as well have been: "One of my players is having fun playing a paladin. How can I prevent this?"
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:03 No.1694782
    so all the other players are just doing the standard rpg routine, but being a paladin automatically means you have to be "challenged" to keep your fucking class?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:05 No.1694788
    Except that's what the OP is basically saying. He wants to put the Paladin in danger of falling with "the nastier the better." Basically saying that he wants the Paladin to fall. Hell, he even owned up to multiple attempts earlier to force the Paladin into falling.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)15:06 No.1694791
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    You know, I think that being new to roleplaying means that I'm naive to your ways...

    There shouldn't be a "Door number 1 leads to a fallen paladin; Door number 2 leads to a fallen paladin; Door number 3 leads to a fallen paladin" situation. In fact, I don't know fully how things like Vow of Pacifism work, but if you're force to kill someone--say they've got your nakama tied up and on a death machine, and the only way to save them is by killing him and interrupting the psychometrics of the machine-- then the results shouldn't be as simple as "Oh, you're no longer Lawful Good because you killed someone"

    It should be more real and emotional. Then again, its this naive way of thinking that causes me to imagine a situation where a paladin is forced to break his moral code and now acts like Achilles in His Tent, depressed over his action or inaction, and not just some player BAAAWWing over how he doesn't get to do his paladin moves anymore.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:08 No.1694800

    Those aren't challenges, those are no-win situations that a GM crafted to force the player to break his his vow.

    A challenge would be a situation where breaking his vow seems to be the easiest, simplist, and maybe even best option, but is NOT the only option the character has.
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)15:08 No.1694804
    did you just say nakama instead of comrades, party, or friends?
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)15:11 No.1694820
    It has to be said that I saw "Paladin, not Lawful Stupid, tactics" and the picture, and then I just posted >>1694632 maybe I should have read to the end...

    OP, you're a dick. Pick on another class.

    Well, not being of the DnD mold, I say any DM who obeys the "You fall you lose powers" rule should have his books burned.

    not the first time I've used the term
    >> Inquisitor Angricus !IT5VxStGLw 05/09/08(Fri)15:13 No.1694828
    Which is not how it is. See, that's the mythical mystic land of role playing where alignment is secondary to action, where the DM doesn't trying to screw people over because they didn't do exactly what he intended, or because they're some class he mildly dislikes or whatever.

    That's the mythical land where every character is interesting, no one knows who the hell Mary Sue is, and if you threw a stone you'd hit a thousand and one characters with genuine backgrounds filled with emotional depth and still remain human. Or humanesque, in some cases.

    This is the mythical land where 'minmax' is an after thought. Where cross classing is for fun and not for breaking the game. Where chaotic evil isn't 'kill everything in sight then rape the corpse'. When EVIL isn't 'I wear black and occasionally kick puppies' but 'I can be the nicest person you know... if you do what I say. You cross me, and I will make sure you forget what it meant to be happy. Within the legal limitations and in such a way that no matter what you do you can't touch me'.

    Where lawful good isn't 'Hurr state says evil must follow!' but 'The state says its evil, and while I believe in order, I know these people are not evil. Good overrides the state here, and a new order must be established in the name of what is right and fair.'

    But we don't live in that world. And you're lucky as hell if you find that group.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:14 No.1694829

    Why? If a paladin has a code he has to obey, why should breaking it not incur falling?
    >> Lucon F. Talestar !0LLNYTOJE. 05/09/08(Fri)15:14 No.1694831
    Edward, you and I are just too good for /tg/. Let's elope and start our own imageboard.
    >> Inquisitor Angricus !IT5VxStGLw 05/09/08(Fri)15:14 No.1694833
    >doesn't trying

    Also, it appears to be a land where my English fucking sucks. Isn't trying *
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:15 No.1694834
    You should post less.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:16 No.1694837
    This is why I love Complete Scoundrel.

    DM: You lose your abilites cus I forced you into a catch 22 bullshit situation.
    Me: Fuck you, imma Grey Guard!

    And I continue to fight evil the only way some evil can be fought.
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)15:17 No.1694843
    if you break a law, does it incur jail time? if you miss a class, are you failed for tardiness? one breach of conduct does not a blackguard make.
    I use "you fall, you lose powers," but I only use it in actual cases of FALLING. Like, you fucking murder innocents and shit. You do something against your code, you may be in danger of falling, you may not use your powers due to RP reasons, or what-have-you, but damn if I just do "you slipped up, now your powers are gone."
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:18 No.1694849
    In that case it doesn't matter anyway. Falling is just losing the 2 level dip you made for divine grace until you find a priest.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)15:19 No.1694850
    It should incur falling, but there shouldn't be some magical power loss. It should be a character driven reason of "I am the paragon of justice." Not, "ah man, if I do that I'll lose Smite Evil!"

    That post makes me cry manly tears.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:19 No.1694854
    Fair enough, I at times have been guilty at jumping the gun to reply. And I for most part actually agree that all character should have their morality tested. Actually, one of my favorite memories of D&D was when the DM had us all pass through a gate of some kind, then he pulled each one of us aside one by one and gave us all a different moral test.

    I always liked mine. I had been contact by a cultist who told me that the secrets to the world's greatest treasure would be mine if I was willing to make a sacrifice. He had prepared a small child to be sacrificed. He handed me a pulsating evil weapon and told me that a sacrifice must be made.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:21 No.1694863
    /tg/ - "Paladins must fall"
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)15:22 No.1694866
    and I bet doing so wouldn't have ROBBED YOU OF YOUR CLASS FEATURES.
    >> Fexy !Efchz00JLk 05/09/08(Fri)15:24 No.1694879
    The thing about Paladins players should remember is that it's always about the means, not the ends. Like in KotOR for instance. Revan fell to the darkside. He wanted to help the Republic by either strengthening them or taking over and building them up to protect the galaxy. But despite what he wanted, which was good, he did evil to achieve that end. A Paladin must use good means for a good end.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:26 No.1694881

    I don't think it would have, since that only happens for Paladins.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:26 No.1694882
    No. That was the beauty of it.

    Only person who ran that risk was our Cleric. He didn't tell me the details, but basically it came down to what was more important: Doing the right thing, or obeying his god.
    >> Kasrkin Mehlman 05/09/08(Fri)15:26 No.1694883
    I kind of figured 'the ends do NOT justify the means' was always implied to people who know jack shit about Paladins.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:27 No.1694886
    D&D's morality is set in stone by the gods, Matt.
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)15:27 No.1694887
    and if he can do neither, he must do nothing.
    They're deontologists. They can't lie, but if they can tell the truth and send guards to kill an innocent or lie and mislead them, he has to say nothing, even if it'll get him killed.
    As DM, you need to understand that these situations will happen, but damned if lying once will make them lose their powers. On the other hand, you also have to watch that every single scene doesn't become a morality play centered on the paladin.
    If you can't do that, give your DMing material to someone else and learn to do it better before you try again.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:28 No.1694893

    Plus most Gods(DMs) are emotionally stunted 15 year olds who think black'n'grim is the only thing that's cool.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:31 No.1694909
    No, the gods have nothing to do with morality. It's an elemental force. The gods have no control over what is and is not good.
    >> Inquisitor Angricus !IT5VxStGLw 05/09/08(Fri)15:33 No.1694916
    Fuck the core rules. Rule 0 trumps it all.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:34 No.1694928
    How stupid.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)15:37 No.1694951
    And the Zeroth law states that the GM's word is God

    And I state again that it's possible to have a villainous Paladin.

    Lawful alignment holds the good of all and the sanctity of order above all else.
    Good is holding others above yourself.

    By seeing the bigger picture a paladin becomes a Knight Templar. If Evil must be done, let it be done in the service of Good. If Evil deeds are the only way to maintain the order of Law and keep Good safe, then Evil deeds must be done. The ends do justify the means.

    A man who slays all who oppose him and who threatens to destroy the world, and yet does so not for his own power or gain, but that of the world and it's stability is Lawful Good. In fact, a Knight Templar is the best kind of paladin. Someone who knows that the deeds they do are Evil, but that the Evil they do is what will make the world a better place.

    If Evil can do Good deeds, why can't Good do Evil deeds?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:38 No.1694956
    actually, morality is completely dependent on whose morality it is. morality is not good-evil law-chaos. those are elemental forces. morality is a set of social conduct made by the community one lives in.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)15:39 No.1694960
    I should also point out that no matter how many times that belief results in the term "aspie" being thrown around, that a handful of genuine character is worth more than a whole barrel of shoehorned core rules.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:39 No.1694961

    Because it's retarded and leads to really shitty storylines? Besides, what's the point of playing a paladin who does evil things? That's bullshit, it's been bullshit throughout history whenever that old trope gets tried.
    >> Inquisitor Angricus !IT5VxStGLw 05/09/08(Fri)15:40 No.1694962
    That's a long philosophical debate. However, in general game terms, the good that evil does is not somehow tainted. It's a good action not one made evil by proxy. And the same applies for the opposite. However good their intentions might be, their actions are still evil.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)15:42 No.1694977
    That's why I alternatively loathe and love the Dungeons and Dragons alignment system. It can introduce such metaphysical moral quandaries.
    It places everything into neat little groups based on actions,
    And yet... it places everything into neat little groups based on actions.
    >> Fexy !Efchz00JLk 05/09/08(Fri)15:42 No.1694978
    My name's not Matt...

    What he said.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)15:43 No.1694985
    What's the matter, idea of a villain not in it for himself too DEEP for you?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:43 No.1694987
    Don't lie, Matt, it's not nice.
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)15:43 No.1694988
    ...what? Evil is CONSTANTLY shown as easy. The character you described is LN. Good is based on duty, not on the ends. it's deontological, not motherfucking consequentialist. Your character is LN, as is the Punisher, as are any organizations that kill and oppress for an actually perceived greater good.
    D&D alignments have a lot to do with motives, sure, but also actions. Being good doesn't mean being nice, yes, but it means not being evil. Being evil doesn't mean being an asshole, but it means doing everything one can to maximize gain to oneself and possibly the few people one cares about. Neutrality is probably most common in the world for a reason: it's easy, and requires no commitment in either way.
    You're seriously misrepresenting alignments here. Now I must nap.
    technically, that's ethics, not morals.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:43 No.1694990
    Paladin tests that I've come across in my travels are usually pretty crappy. Generally because its "Hurr, must make Paladin fall, Durr". Though the better ones I've seen are things like, infants of monsters/ 'evil' races. Is it wrong to kill them now to stop a potential greater evil later on? Does that override the fact that they are innocent now? Having enemies that surrender is one I've come across while playing Lawful Good, in a more civilized setting, when they give up they're for going to trial and a good hanging not for the rest of the PC's to brutally torture. Last one should have already been mentioned is the corrupt/evil overlords. As a paragon of Justice you can't just leave it be, but what can you do about it? Instigate a rebellion and risk open warfare? Sanction assassination attempts and try and instigate a coup? Internal reform?

    Still, such things are only really a consideration for those who actually Role Play, which is unfortunately something of a rarity.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:44 No.1694996

    This is exactly why D&D's paladin code is such bullshit. It doesn't allows for those situations or even want to admit they exist. They gave the entire class a one size fits all code of conduct no matter what god or purpose they're sworn to.

    Another fun example: Going strictly by the rules, a paladin sworn to a LN god (like Helm or somebody)could actually fall, and lose the powers granted to them by their god, by doing something their own fucking god ordered them to do.
    >> Lucon F. Talestar !0LLNYTOJE. 05/09/08(Fri)15:47 No.1695005
    Unless you're an ubermensch like yours truly.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:48 No.1695009

    That's an awesome idea for screwing over a paladin, actually.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)15:48 No.1695011
    >Your character is LN, as is the Punisher
    The Punisher is in it for himself though.

    >Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
    Betraying everything you hold dear sounds like a pretty big personal sacrifice.
    Well, the fact that there are infants and the fact that the infants are innocent blows a huge hole in "Always Chaotic Evil. ALWAYS"
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:50 No.1695020
    thats why in 4e alignments arent going to be attributed to everything like they were.
    because that sort of quandary doesnt happen. if a paladin is struggling, he just uses detect evil, then proceeds to stab the baby goblin in the face.
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)15:51 No.1695036
    the Punisher...do you READ comics? No, the punisher, though his motivations are unclear at times, does what he does because there are some really bad people out there, people who deserve to die. His life sucks, but he does it anyway because in some way, the world might be better off if he punishes criminals.
    and doing evil for the greater good isn't good. betraying your moral principles is in itself a...
    GODDAMMIT. I need a nap. I'm done. I'd keep going, but damned if I'm not done with philosophy for the time being.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:52 No.1695042
    enjoy your nap. what are you, 7?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:52 No.1695045
    The punisher still is LN. Good characters try to resort only to as much violence as is necessary to defend life.
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)15:53 No.1695047
    I'm 22, and tired as fuck.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:53 No.1695048

    Eh, The Punisher's CE anyway. The man's a murdering psychopath, no matter how you try to draw on platitudes about it.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:54 No.1695054

    Lawful evil. He has reasons for every life he takes. Joker is Chaotic Evil.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:55 No.1695060

    How about we split the difference and just call it NE?
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)15:56 No.1695067
    The Punisher is in it for himself. He may justify his actions by saying he doesn't want what happened to him to happen to others. Those reasons may even be true. But his primary reason is that he enjoys killing.

    And The Punisher is no Paladin. Captain America is a Paladin. And, Captain America remained Lawful Good while fighting his own government, effectively, while fighting his God.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:57 No.1695076
    it is fags like you as GM's or as other players that make people not want to be a Paladin

    if a char gets a vow, that means that they want to follow that vow. not be stuck in a situation where they just became perma gimped and lost out on a feat.

    alot of people play paladins to be a good guy. not to have some dickwad make their person fail.
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)15:58 No.1695079
    LN. he spares innocents, will sacrifice his life to save children, and will not stray from that. However, he does torture and kill murderers and gangsters, so good's out of the question.
    I'm back because I need to wait for my kettle to boil so I can have some tea.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)15:59 No.1695086

    Don't worry, little Billy! I saved your life by mowing down ten other people! Aren't I awesome?
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)16:01 No.1695093
    so good characters have to hate killing? I could see a NG fighter fucking love cleaving tyrants, monsters, and criminals in twain.
    and there's no argument over Cap being LG, and never betraying his principles. and he has never been beholden to his government, but to the ideals it's supposed to represent. it's like you haven't read him. It's closer to "allying with his god against that god's church."
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:01 No.1695096
    since when is it lawful to torture people, hes CN
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)16:03 No.1695112
    more like "stay here, close your eyes, and NEVER play with guns, billy. I'll make sure those rapists and murderers will never hurt you again."
    lawful is following a code of ethics rigorously and doing things in a manner befitting that code. His code is to stop crime and protect innocents. if he has to torture someone, so be it.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:03 No.1695115
    when the law allows torture.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:03 No.1695116
    The act of torture is not inherently choatic or lawful.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:04 No.1695121

    Which is never, unless said law is patently evil.
    >> Fexy !Efchz00JLk 05/09/08(Fri)16:04 No.1695123
    CIA, the Catholic Inquisition, the KGB. If it's approved by a government to torture people, it's technically lawful.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:04 No.1695124
    I've always wondered the punisher's stand on snuff porn. He's against child porn, to the point he'd gun down anyone who helped produce it. Now comic books about child porn is child porn. Would a comic book centering around killing people cause him to explode in the causality loop?
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)16:04 No.1695127
    Lawful != follows the law.
    inb4 attacks on US government.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:05 No.1695128
    they can't like killing. they can like fighting, just not killing.
    >> parabolic000 !!HfL9M9xslOG 05/09/08(Fri)16:07 No.1695139
    no "I'm satisfied because that person will never fucking hurt anyone again?" really? I'd disagree, but I'd say it's not the purest good out there.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)16:07 No.1695142
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    If you Walk the Earth and you take a Vow of some importance, chances are, along the way that Vow will be tested. That test builds character. When I say test though, I don't just mean "A is the Fall, B is the Fall", I mean, "You have a choice to make. Everything will cost you something"

    The very idea of a black and white morality solution is conducive to bad roleplaying. Saving an innocent life or saving the woman you love is a difficult choice. Either way you lose something. And if you Take A Third Option, you have yourself a genuine Big Damned Heroes moment. Of the best kind.

    Everything has consequences. In fact, not even a "Choose who dies" moment. Something as simple as having a good decision come back to bite you in the ass. If you spare the goblins, they may one day come back to kill you.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:11 No.1695160
    if they were straight up evil, then they would be glad to be rid of the evil, but that doesnt mean they relish the killing. they enjoy the nonexistence of the evil, not the killing of the evil person.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:18 No.1695195
    have you ever been a GM? since when did PC's do what you thought they should?
    if you give a paladin a choice of choose an innocent or chose the woman you love. and the other has to die by your hand, else they both die. (this has happened to me, which is why i hate the testing of a paladin) your other option is option C: self sacrifice. and look, that person that you just created had to go and get themselves killed all because your GM is a fucking douche because you played a paladin.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:23 No.1695233
    or just neither and dont kill yourself. hurr hurr, dumbass.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)16:26 No.1695246
    Yes, I'm always the GM. And my players, while being complete morons, seem to grasp narrative theory and such abstract concepts as putting themselves in the character's shoes.

    And what possible reason for the situation you described could there have been?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:26 No.1695252
    Hrmmm. Killing innocent is bad. Killing loved one is also bad. Killing self will allow the BBEG to kill millions of more people. Would also require trusting some guy who kills innocents and goes after other people's loved ones.

    I choose none of the above, grab my sword and charge the BBEG. I'll have any innocents rezed after the battle, even if I have to pry the BBEG's gold teeth and parts out his internal organs as mage reagents to the highest bidder.

    I will not negotiate with cowards or terrorists.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:33 No.1695302
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:36 No.1695327
    well, in the situation i described, the party, because i was a paladin more or less left me for dead fighting minions of BBEG. they snuck in somewhere (dm didn't allow me to know this for rightful reasons) and in exchange for their lives, they had to give information on how to get rid of me (i had broken out of the cell they put me in twice and killed guards when i learned my party was also captive.) the GM wanted to get the BBEG to corrupt me and make me work for him. so the other PC's gave that i was a paladin. BBEG got my chars wife, and a random innocent. and gave me the choice to save one and kill the other. i did go with option C which was to charge BBEG and get myself killed.
    most of the party was like "what, why would you charge him, that will only get you killed" to which i had to respond that killing either of them would go against the values i had followed my entire life, and so to go against them now for this fuck face would be the ultimate disgrace. the party loled at my char dying. i left, and have yet to ever be in a game with them again, due to 'challenging' the paladins beliefs.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)16:38 No.1695336
    I should also point out that while normally I abhor suicide, I just seem to love it when it's done for either spiritual atonement, or the greater good. And if I ever play a game of DnD, I want the DM to engineer a situation where I have to take out my dagger and drive it through my own heart.

    Spiritual atonement:
    There was a story--well, okay, it was a shota doujin-- the main character was chosen as the new queen. The king knew he wasn't actually a young girl, and that's why he chose the kid. The kid had lived his life training to assassinate the king, but he couldn't do it. The king offered to not kill him if he kept up the charade so that the king wouldn't have to find a new queen, he even tells the would-be assassin that he can keep trying to kill him. Eventually, they fall in love, and the king asks for a night in each other's embrace, and by that I mean hot gay sex, like a real couple would have. The caveat is that the boy can't try to kill him while they are together. At the end of the act though, the boy stabs the king in the heart. The king's last words are those of love, and crying, the assassin takes his own life.

    For the greater good.
    The Paladin has been cursed by the Big Bad. If the energy in him continues to build up, he will take out the entire kingdom. Seeing no other course of action the Paladin takes out his dagger, wishes farewell to his nakama, and plunges the weapon into his own heart, releasing the energy buildup and saving the kingdom, and most of all the nakama.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:47 No.1695391
    As a DM, I constantly test Clerics. All the CoDzilla builds make me laugh, because they're utterly unrealistic in terms of deity permissiveness. A cleric of soem god of magic is not going to allow just any of his clerics to take the dweomerkeeper presitge class. He's goign to allow only the absolute EXEMPLAR of his order to take it - they will have created magical items of unique design and lasting value, crafted new spells - and yes, I MAKE the player craft a new spell that is balanced and playworthy! - and then, if he has stayed absolutely true to his god's path in a role playing situuation, then I will aloow him to take dweomerkeeper as a prestige class. If he's earned the power, he gets the reward.

    And this applies to good and evil clerics too. And druids....the Lords of Madness book can say whatever it likes. The only way a PC druid can gain the aberration wild shape ability is if he's been utterly and totally corrupted - in which case, he looses all druidic power. A fallen paladin is NOTHING compared to a fallen druid!
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:48 No.1695404
    flip a coin, then kill one of them. thats the only fair way to do it. killing yourself wouldnt save them either, thats probably the MOST evil course of action to take.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)16:50 No.1695424
    THIS is the true paladin code.

    Generaly I just played a badass paladin. If it was evil I killed it. Its a baby demon, SMITE. Corrupt politician is stealing from people and murdering for his own gain. KILL The evil overlord is giving his monologue I kill him before he finishes because hes evil.

    The end always justified the means.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)16:57 No.1695471
    Yeah, but I'm not talking on a case by case basis. I'm talking Great Flood level.

    I'm talking "The paladin sits in a floating citadel above the world and makes plans to unwrite reality and bring paradise to the world, knowing full well that he can never get into the paradise he's creating, and his party members assure him he's doing the right thing and try to keep him from falling into so deep a state of depression that he takes solace in madness."

    I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this, but that's the description of Kether Malach from the book I'm planning to write. The Greater Good is the -only- thing that matters, not individual safety, and not personal safety. What can be done to save humanity from destruction has to be done, regardless. And if it can't be done, well, when the world has a new enemy to unite against, it will be whole again.

    Of course, that leads to those who never compromise, even in the face of Armageddon's.
    >> GARdian 05/09/08(Fri)17:01 No.1695508

    Nope. Paladins do LG things to achieve LG ends. It's a very simple concept.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:02 No.1695522
    Edward gets a 4/10
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:03 No.1695529
    What a lot of you guys forget is that there is a way for the paladin to regain his powers as long as he stays LG and didn't willfully Break his code its call the Atonement Spell
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)17:03 No.1695530
    Yeah, except sometimes doing Lawful Evil things gets you more good. It's like The Prince. A better ruler is respected, but also feared.

    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:06 No.1695550
    Basicaly if slavery is legal in the province then the paladin cant do anything to the evil slave trader?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:11 No.1695588
    He can work through legal means to end the slavery. Hell, he may be able to have his superiors threaten military action so long as the human rights violations continue.

    That is, if the game world even has the concept of human rights.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:14 No.1695607
    No. Paladin follows his own code of ethics and laws. A St. Cuthbert paladin isn't going to follow the rules of an hexxor worshiping deathcult. A sign with "All paladins must surrender their weapons and armors and become slaves." isn't going to defeat a paladin.

    If in the paladin's ethos slavery is wrong, and the paladin travels to an area where slavery is legal, he'll do everything he can to change that. Even if it means bringing an army, slaughtering everyone who is pro-slavery and putting in an anti-slavery puppet government.
    >> Double_Golbat !pnicnCTgx. 05/09/08(Fri)17:15 No.1695615
    I was always under the impression that Paladins only had to serve their higher God, and therefor the priests and such of whatever order who would also serve said God and not the laws and such of the people, its a class that properly puts you into the position of a Police Officer almost or can you be a feral human in the woods somewhere and pray to a tree and be a technical paladin with no social standing?
    >> Fexy !Efchz00JLk 05/09/08(Fri)17:19 No.1695645
    Paladins are expected to act ahead of their times, so human rights.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:20 No.1695650
    I wouldn't like to play with a dm who creates situations only to make me lose my class.
    >> Fexy !Efchz00JLk 05/09/08(Fri)17:20 No.1695652
    Paladins are expected to pledge themselves to Law and Good. Specific gods are not needed.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:21 No.1695659
    You can be a paladin of a god, an unnamed god (where you eventually discover what god you really follow), or some concept or virtue. I think the forgotten realms setting is the only one that requires a paladin to declare a god. The rest, you can be the paladin of freedom or piety or yes, even some tree you worship.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:42 No.1695831
    I come from a chapel, through kingdoms, peoples and cities, to this place DND, my calling, palidan, to protect and defend, to protect my newfound friends, their hopes and dreams, to defend them from, their enemies. They say evil lurks around every corner, no one knows for sure, but i intend to find out!
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:48 No.1695875
    Paladins shouldn't exist.

    Being good means you can't ever fight. And yet Paladins must fight evil. Paradox. /0. Game over. Universe ends.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:49 No.1695880
    Ah the good old catch-22 Paladin scenario. Never ceases to amaze me how immature some DMs can be to force you into a "nope, you break your code" scenario.

    Especially since Paladins aren't that powerful to begin with. Why the fixation with making them break their code.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:50 No.1695887
    These are the people I hate


    A Cleric is there to heal, yet he can wield weapons and kill stuff. OMG PARADOX
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:50 No.1695891
    A man who would fight to the death to defend the weak without expecting compensation of any form is not good?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:52 No.1695907
    OP, you are a niggerfaggot of the highest order. I hope you choke to death.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:55 No.1695916
    No, that's lawful stupid. A good person fights when necessary, avoids senseless killing, and will commit no intentionally destructive acts of selfishness.

    People like you are what makes playing anything but chaotic neutral a game with a 4-aspirin entry requirement.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)17:55 No.1695919
    On a niggerdick.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)17:59 No.1695937
    If given the choice to either have one person die or both die, the path is clear. Take out or attempt to take out the thing that is causing the ultimatum.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:00 No.1695943
    I see a paladin like Vash the Stampeed. That fucker was fighting ALL the time, and he did so to save people. The only person he ever killed he killed so others wouldn't die. Even though he went against his own personal beliefs he atoned for his mistake. As such all paladins are capable of.
    >> Fish Nipples 05/09/08(Fri)18:01 No.1695948
    Precisely. What is so hard about that concept of good?

    Lawful Good = play like fucking Captain America.

    It doesn't mean you can't be Lawful Badass.
    >> Cat's Craple 05/09/08(Fri)18:04 No.1695963
    So.... is it wrong that I fapped to the OP's image?
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)18:05 No.1695966
    I've been holding back saying that this whole thread. The thing with Bluesummers is the thing I've been talking about. If Vash was a paladin, in this shoehorning system that would be considered a Fall. And that was played the way a paladin's fall should be played out. Sadness. Despair. If I'm not mistaken, that's when he ran away and became Eriks, isn't it?

    Fuck. Yes.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:05 No.1695967
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:07 No.1695981
    More or less. but then he attoned and became Vash again
    >> Cat's Cradle 05/09/08(Fri)18:08 No.1695984
    Correct answer for ANY cleric should be..

    "What my God wants IS the right thing."
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:11 No.1695998
    I just hate how everyone wants the paladin to fall and not be a paladin

    Isn't that like a rogue passsing up a chest and the DM saying, OK get rid of your class benifits your no longer a rogue
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:11 No.1696003
    Succubi/incubi always work petty good for involuntary/reversible falls.

    too easy?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:13 No.1696015
    If its a demon and eveil you can kill it rape it and grill it
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:15 No.1696029
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    Hey guys I have an Anti-paladin in my game...how can I make him do something that will violate his Chaotic Evil ethos and morals?
    >> Fish Nipples 05/09/08(Fri)18:16 No.1696036
    It's a really juvenile thing that most players should've outgrown in the 4th grade.

    But most people playing D&D apparently can't even be arsed to read the fucking section on alignment.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:17 No.1696042
    Force him to do the right and noble thing.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:17 No.1696046
    Do not encourage the OP being a douchebag.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:17 No.1696049
    Couldn't he just play that off as 'Chaos' ???
    >> corts crabble 05/09/08(Fri)18:19 No.1696064
    chaotic evil, eh? why not a helm of opposite alignment, and some of that superglue magic item?
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)18:21 No.1696076
    Because the paladin is the perfect class to play for moral quandaries. The rogue can do whatever he wants, but whatever the paladin wants is goodness.

    I don't care about the paladin not being a paladin, I care about the paladin being tested.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:21 No.1696078
    clerics dont HAVE to follow a god...
    its one of those things often looked over in the players handbook.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:22 No.1696081
    I always detected evil on the "trapped maiden" in durlag's tower in baldur's gate 1. Nope, sorry lady, you're evil, I'm not doing anything you say. "Do it or I will kill you." Oh, woah there lady, you just went from someone I will ignore to someone I will stab repeatedly with a sword, today is just not your day.
    >> Cat's Craple 05/09/08(Fri)18:22 No.1696084
    I always felt that "Anti-paladin" was the stupidest term to ever come out of D&D.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:22 No.1696087
    >> Fish Nipples 05/09/08(Fri)18:23 No.1696090
    Utilize a temporary time-travel spell to create a situation where they have to show mercy by sparing their future self from a grisly death.

    It's pretty hard to shoehorn a character whose only code of ethics is "ALL EVIL, ALL THE FUCKING TIME."
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:23 No.1696091
    Elf Cleric of that god who's name I can't be bothered to remember. Orc Child, of an incredibly evil Orc Warlord no less. Faith demanded that he slay the Orc then and there.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:23 No.1696093
    i would like to ask your fascination with this.
    do you test a druid by forcing them to use metal armor or teaching druidic?
    do you test the monk on thier code?
    do you test the barbarian to be chaotic and not follow a code?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:25 No.1696104
    If I was a DM I'd not mess with the paladin JUST to spite you all
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)18:28 No.1696114
    I again point out that A) I don't play DnD, I just like the Paladin
    And B) Yes.

    Though, a Druid teaching their secret language needs something more contrived, and the whole "Matel=Fall" thing is stupid.
    Monks, yes, I would do it one thousand times. I've already talked about testing the Vow of Pacifism in a Vash and Legato way.
    And I even talked about testing a chaotic character by letting them form a relationship with an NPC and having to go against their ways to save it.

    A test of character should not be limited to the paladin, but the paladin's character is so much more ingrained in their being than any other class.
    >> corts crabble 05/09/08(Fri)18:28 No.1696117
    I bring up the parts that the characters would pay attention to. if the orcs had women and children hiding right behind the battle, and there was no paladin, I'd maybe have a passing mention. if there WAS a paladin, I go into detail because I know the paladin is paying attention.
    >> Cat's Cradle 05/09/08(Fri)18:29 No.1696121
    >I always liked mine. I had been contact by a cultist who told me that the secrets to the world's greatest treasure would be mine if I was willing to make a sacrifice. He had prepared a small child to be sacrificed. He handed me a pulsating evil weapon and told me that a sacrifice must be made.

    I would have looked at the weapon... gutted the cultist with it... then played patty cake with the kid.

    What does that make me?
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)18:29 No.1696124
    That's supposed to say "Metal=Fall". Not the toy company.
    >> Valgaav 05/09/08(Fri)18:29 No.1696126
    firstoff, thank you /tg/, you've restored my faith in humanity.

    Second, I'd like to prove that there's still a unique character left int he world. Rogue/Paladin:

    Genvieve was a part of an affluent family once, however early in her youth a great power shift happened in the city she lived in, forcing her to become a street urchin and band with others of that kind simply to survive. She kept a kind heart despite it, however, and was always everyone's favorite little sister, or as she grew, big sister. she learned how to fight out of necessity, but far more preferred to defuse the situation or run away and hide somewhere. This changed when a brave Ranger, hoping to rid the world of an evil Fighter who had been tyrannizing the city, lured him into the part of town where 'no-one would notice a few more people gone'. The Fighter, wounded badly from the fight, grabbed Genvieve's best friend Lisa, and threatened to kill her if the Ranger didn't give up. Faced with such a dillema, the Ranger was frozen...but Genvieve was not, and using a dagger that she had barely ever wounded with, found a chink in the wounded warrior's armor, slaying him with a final strike. As she killed him, she felt a glowing light inside of her, and a voice speaking in her head, as armor formed around her body. "You have a brave soul." Said Heironeous, as he granted her the power of the Paladin. "You will do well as an example to the people." She was blinded for a moment as a rush of new skills entered her mind and body, becoming part of her, and when she could see, she had a Greatsword in her hands. Leaving later that day, she has tried to set the best example for Law and Good through the world that she could.
    >> corts crabble 05/09/08(Fri)18:30 No.1696134
    well, what a right and proper paladin would do is this: cut the kid, get the information, kill the cultist, bring the kid to a cleric, get it raised, give the kid half the take.
    >> corts crabble 05/09/08(Fri)18:31 No.1696136
    also, this is the kind of stuff I let paladins do in my games.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:31 No.1696138
    You're a fucking troll, right?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:35 No.1696146
    You are a bad DM and you should feel bad.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)18:37 No.1696151
    You know what? This time I'm just going to say "yes" because it's easier. You're right, I'm sorry, I apologize.

    Now see, that's awesome. You would get an "awesome Paladin" medal. If I had one.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:41 No.1696173
    Bonus points if you mess with everyone BUT the paladin.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:41 No.1696175
    I belive that killing someone just because he said that slavery is good can't be considered good.
    >> Valgaav 05/09/08(Fri)18:41 No.1696177
    The thought process on that one: "Complete Adventurer has a feat for Rogue/Paladins." "Who would play a Rogue/Paladin?" "Well, let's see what I can do to make one."
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:42 No.1696179
    CG, according to my DM, because that similar to what I did.

    "Wait, I've got an idea. One where all 3 of us can leave here happy. I get my map, the child doesn't die and you..." Grab him and pin him onto the altar, than stab him in the throat. "... get your sacrifice."
    >> Cat's Cradle 05/09/08(Fri)18:46 No.1696189
    Monks breaking code has been mentioned..

    But how would you go about that? Monks are lawful good, but that is following the code of your ORDER. You don't owe anyone else the lawful treatment. It only matters what they think of ya.

    And.. well.. there isn't anything describing monk orders in depth..
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:47 No.1696195
    I like the idea of the "badass" good guy. Thats what I always attributed the paladin to be. and I always figured the priest/cleric would be the moralfag

    Apperantly moralfaggary and integerity are easily confused
    >> Cat's Cradle 05/09/08(Fri)18:48 No.1696199
    I wasn't thinking making HIM the sacrifice. Just gutting the bastard then playing with the kid.

    Chaotic sounds right though. I've been told I'm CN because I'm mentally ill. What would be a good class for me that isn't the fail of the bard?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:51 No.1696201
    Any chaotic act.

    Laughing at a joke. Speaking in anything but Joe Friday dialog. Littering. Not tipping the waitress.

    I'm sorry, but because you dropped that parchment instead of putting it back in it's proper place your level 12 monk is now a level 12 commoner.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:53 No.1696211
    To the slaver? Not so much. To the slave? The paladin is a savior sent by the gods. To the paladin? Filthy scum, repent or die.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:54 No.1696213
    to me Paladins put more thought into their actions rather than like a CE fighter or even a CG fighter. Like a criminal that steals, maybe the criminal is stealing because the lord of the area oppresses his people. Killing evil is fine and dandy, but neutralizing evil is better. If I can get the badguy to renouce his evil ways I succeded at ending evil and saving a life. If not I can always kill the fucker. No harm no foul
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:57 No.1696226
    I don't mean slaver but someone who is pro-slavery.
    You know like cutting in half this guy in a bar who said "Slavery, It's not something bad."
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:58 No.1696231
    Sorceror pretty much plays on that entire concept. People will tell you that it's statistically inferior to the wizard, but fuck those min/maxing assholes, I like using CHA as my swiss-army stat.

    Rogue would be excellent too, as it gives you a reason to be a sort of Robin Hood figure, while at the same time giving you free range to rob from the rich to give to yourself.

    Barbarian wouldn't be bad either. Really it's all about what kind of playstyle you want to go for, and those three classes can make it work if you want to take the CN route. I suppose a cleric of a CN god would also work too, but I tend to find that wisdom is a hard stat to work into a somewhat deranged character.

    Just keep in mind that chaotic neutral ISN'T about killing random people and lighting taverns on fire. That's chaotic evil. Chaotic neutral is about realistically doing what you want, with no regard as to whether it's legally acceptable to do so. You're just as likely to quest for the holy grail as you are to work for a lich.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)18:59 No.1696233
    You mean like that black guy in serenity?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:02 No.1696243
    C/N is the perfect example of self preservation.
    you give no care for anyone or anything except for yourself. and you will do anything to stay alive and keep doing whatever the fuck you want to do
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:02 No.1696246
    Depends on the situation then. Detect evil. Does he look like a major supporter of slavers? Owns slaves? If it's just some jerk in a bar, then he might be ignored. If my paladin is doing a house to house search during the siege of slavertonia, freeing slaves, killing slavers and this idiot stands up saying "Hey, enslaving people isn't so bad." then yes, he gets stabbed.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)19:02 No.1696247
    I haven't seen Serenity, but judging by that motivational poster, I'd have to say yes.

    Someone post that poster by the way.
    >> Valgaav 05/09/08(Fri)19:03 No.1696250
    Just once, I want to see a DM with slavery in his world and a race that is, innately, inferior to all other races. Sure, they can think, and they can move, but they fit every single stereotype the townsfolk have for them.

    I imagine a PC going to be a missionary and coming back two weeks later to buy slaves.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:03 No.1696254
    You mean The Operative?
    He's LE.
    Awesome LE, but LE.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:06 No.1696273
    Stabbing him just for saying that? Pushing it, maybe. You could just as easily ignore him, or knock him out with a swift bit of subdual damage (easily done if he's a commoner) if you're going for something more covert.

    Standing in your way and bearing arms against you for freeing the slaves? Yeah, sword in gut, file the necessary paperwork later.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:07 No.1696279
    Anyone who plays a Palain that is lawful stupid deserves to fall, and paladin that plays Lawful badass should be feared

    Lawful Good doesn't mean Lawful Nice
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)19:07 No.1696281
    Well, by the "Good is doing it for others, Evil is doing it for you" interpretation, he would be Lawful Good. Anyone who chooses Evil for the sake of others is not truly evil
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:08 No.1696282
    Then this situation:
    Pladin sees cages with slaves (slavery isn't against law). He comes to the guard and demands releasing slaves. When guard refuses he kills him and releases the slaves.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:08 No.1696287
    you dont play D&D. and you apparently dont know how the D&D system works.
    go read the first few pages of the Book of Exalted deeds and then come back and post.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:09 No.1696294
    And so the Hitler paradox...
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:09 No.1696296
    The only lawful good character possible are Gandhi, Buddha, and Jesus. Anything less would be...uncivilized.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)19:10 No.1696299
    I'm pretty sure I've mentioned about five times that I don't play DnD. And I'm pretty sure that Icewind Dale classified Good and Evil in that way.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:11 No.1696302
    Paladins have a sense of Human rights, Slavary goes against that. If its legal he can't be all PALLY SMASH! But he can coerce the slave masters into attacking him. or the controversial buy the slaves and set them free
    >> Hammerknife !7ITukp3Pj2 05/09/08(Fri)19:13 No.1696312
    Had a paladin in my campaign who was in the middle of a small village under attack by kobolds. Gave him the choice of saving his 'girlfriend' (A PC who failed her Listen check and was happily dozing away) or defending a small orphanage.

    He chose the orphanage, so the cleric had an epic duel with massed kobolds and was killed while the other PCs kept the orphanage safe. I Hand-Of-DM resurrected the cleric and gave the paladin a shiny new greatsword that could 'recall' people he considered allies to his side.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:13 No.1696314
    Wrong wrong wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wroooooooooooong.

    Lawful good is anyone who is a good natured, law-abiding citizen. Chances are a lot of your neighbors are lawful good, without having to be some sort of godly saint.
    >> Cat's Cradle 05/09/08(Fri)19:13 No.1696315
    I'm already quite good at doing whatever the hell I want despite what anyone thinks. I'm sure anyone in my last thread can attest to that.

    I'm hoping to eventually be referred to as, "That crazy bitch that posts here."
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)19:15 No.1696319
    How is that the Hitler Paradox? Hitler wasn't in it for the good of mankind, he was in it for the good of himself. Hell, I'm not even sure he did it for the good of the German peoples. He did it because he was butthurt over World War I.

    Though, using Objective Morality, if he did, indeed, do it for the sake of his country, then he'd be as much a Paladin as Captain America. And a Knight Templar to boot. Well, maybe. The Jews didn't exactly oppose him, though if you think about it, if there was only a German race, then there would be no racial conflict... Hard to have conflict between something so homogeneous.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:19 No.1696341
    In D&D Good and Evil are external, supernatural forces. No matter how horrible an atrocity one commits, if done in the name of good its considered good. No matter how selfless and honorable a champion of evil is in pursuing his cause, his actions are still evil.

    Yes, the D&D Alignment system is that retarded.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)19:19 No.1696344
    Less talking, more kegadol.

    Actually, I'd say the Commoner is Lawful Neutral. Wiki says Lawful Good is the Saintly alignment, and I'm pretty sure things concur
    >> Cat's Cradle 05/09/08(Fri)19:21 No.1696358
    Actually.. in his own twisted way.. Hilter DID think he was doing the best thing possible.

    That is what makes real world morality one big clusterfuck. No one is evil for the sake of being evil. They think they are in the right and everyone else is wrong.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:21 No.1696362
    from the book of Exalted Deeds: Good is not nice, polite, well mannered, prudish, self-righteous, or naive, though good aligned characters might be some of those things. Good is the awsome holy energy that radiates from the celestial planes and crushes evil. Good is selfless, just, hopeful, benevolent, and righteous.

    further on
    "Ends and Means: When do good ends justify evil means to achieve them? is it morally acceptable, for example, to torture an evil captive in order to extract vital information that can prevent the deaths of thousands of innocents? any good character shudders at the thought of committing torture, but the goal of preventing thousands of deaths is undeniably a virtuous one, and a neutral character might easily consider the use of torture in such a circumstance. with evil acts on a smaller scale, even the most virtuous characters can find themselves tempted to agree that a very good end justifies a mildly evil means. is it acceptable to tell a small lie in order to prevent a monor catastrophe? a large catastrophe?
    in the D&D universe the fundamental answer is no, an evil act is an evil act no matter what good it may achieve. A paladin wo knowingly commits an evil act in pursuit of any end no matter how good still jeopardizes her paladinhood.
    aka, your version of 'good' is actually neutral.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:21 No.1696363

    Uh, no. In the D&D absolute morality system, in both the means and the ends must be good for you to be good. Either of them being evil and you're something less than good.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:24 No.1696384
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    Maybe that's the way things work in your games, however I usually modify what is "good" and what is "evil" according to the setting. For instance, kobolds do bad shit, but killing all th kobolds on the planet is evil. How does a good adventurer go about solving this problem? I use things like this, and my own player's grasp of morals to make it fit better then that.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:26 No.1696408
    what if a paladin doesn't take part in an evil act, but doesn't nessisarily prevent it to save people?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:27 No.1696412
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    Anyone supporting, financing or engaging in an activity which is counter to the very basis of what a paladin believes is a viable target. This doesn't mean declaring war on an entire city just to enforce a no littering law. Killing a random slaver guard in an otherwise non-hostile city would be counter productive, since slaves would be put in danger. Asking the local ruler to ban the practice of slavery, if he refuses, then so be it. Time for the cleansing to begin. Purge the unclean with any tactic that will increase the speed of release of the slaves. Barricading the main barracks door while tossing a deathstone through one of the windows, coup de grace while the guards are sleeping, setting the castle on fire then destroying the drawbridge and shooting anyone who tries to jump into the moat. They were given a chance to repent, they chose their path.

    Again. A "No non cultists beyond this point." sign will not stop a paladin. It's the paladin's idea of law and good that matter.

    I like the SoB style paladin, carrying a flaming sword, several fireball wands, and a whole case of alchemist's fire.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:27 No.1696415
    Is the op pic, Miko?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:28 No.1696423
    Good god, the lines in this thread are such good quotable material.

    Personally as a DM, I have one of those rare groups where roleplaying is more important than min-maxing. I actually did make a Paladin step out of code and lose his powers until he realized that he did it for the greater good. That is what paladin's want right? The greater good.

    In b4 tau lover.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:31 No.1696444
    Was he in a situation in which he could (at least try to) stop this evil act? If so, that is an evil act.
    If no, nothing happens to him.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:32 No.1696455
    If I was a DM and a paladin fell it would be because of his own stupidity not a catch-22. Any character can be screwed because of a catch-22. Thats a sign of bad DMing
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 05/09/08(Fri)19:33 No.1696466
    For the Greater Good.

    Also, The only thing it takes for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:34 No.1696472
    To the party mage: If you go through the left door you will have your int reduced permanently by 10. If you go through the right door, your class will be changed to commoner. You have 10 seconds to choose.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:39 No.1696506
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    Paladin code of coduct.
    >> Lazy DM V 05/09/08(Fri)19:39 No.1696508
    ... Sweden?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:42 No.1696536
    Solution: you didnt say that anything bad will happen if he doesnt choose or goes back
    Do I win?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:48 No.1696577
    Rocks fall, you die.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)19:50 No.1696590
    Calling lawful good the "saintly" alignment is like calling a basket of mixed fruit the "citrus bucket". Sure, all Saints are lawful good, just as all citrus is fruit, but not all lawful good characters are saints, just as not all fruit is citrus.

    Make sense?
    >> Inquisitor Angricus !IT5VxStGLw 05/09/08(Fri)19:51 No.1696599
    Ahh, the good old "All dogs are animals, so all animals are dogs" fallacy.

    Yeah, being lawful doesn't mean being saintly. Personally, I'd say the closest to being saintly would be Neutral Good. Order, chaos, all that matters is that good gets done and people are helped.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:01 No.1696653
    Chaotic good palidans are awesome
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:02 No.1696664
    One good thing 4e adds.
    Paladins can be any alignment, as long as it is the same as their god.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:03 No.1696669
    I prefer the
    1. All men are mortal.
    2. Socrates is mortal.
    3. All men are Socrates.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:04 No.1696676
    this is a house rule of mine. if you want to follow a god. you must be of his exact alignment. and you dont have the Paladin CoC you have your gods dogma to follow and uphold.
    >> Inquisitor Angricus !IT5VxStGLw 05/09/08(Fri)20:05 No.1696682
    Fuck that, hard headed dragonborn paladin serving an idealized Tiamat!
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:07 No.1696689
    My house rule is that you can't be a nigger character and be a Paladin.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:08 No.1696694
    If a Paladin heard about that, he'd probably kill you.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:08 No.1696698
    What Smite *alignment* would a TN Paladin get?
    Smite Infidel that works on all good, all evil, LN, AND CN?
    That sounds overpowered.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:08 No.1696699
    But then he'd fall, because that would be an evil act. I'm just a DM, after all.
    >> Inquisitor Angricus !IT5VxStGLw 05/09/08(Fri)20:09 No.1696703
    Probably akin to clerics, who get to decide if they have an evil or good slant to themselves.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:11 No.1696709
    Fuck gods, they complicate your shit unless your a cleric in which case they dictate your existence. Palidans should revere all the good gods because they help spread what is right, and quick prayers before going into combat.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:12 No.1696713
    Take your hack and slash Mary Sue shit elsewhere.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:23 No.1696795
    bawwww I'm not satisfied without godcock in everyone's ass
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:24 No.1696806
    Oh please. God is everything. You're an internet atheist if you try and tell yourself otherwise.
    >> Inquisitor Angricus !IT5VxStGLw 05/09/08(Fri)20:25 No.1696817
    I smell... duelan trolls
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:29 No.1696839
    OP is a fucking douche. This paladin is actually acting like a paladin! Help me come up with a Catch-22 to make him fall, guys!
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:30 No.1696848
    Paladins are a Mary Sue and no one likes them.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:33 No.1696867
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    Posting Cracky in a religious argument.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:35 No.1696872
    Or just someone who practices a different religion than the monotheistic one you do?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:36 No.1696876
    oots ain't welcome here.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:36 No.1696880
    Can't hear you over the godcock in your mouth lol i believe in god irl so you should too even in a FANTACY game
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:38 No.1696890
    Not "believe-in-my-god-or-you're-an-atheist" fag, but your argument would look a lot better if you spelled fantasy right.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:41 No.1696911
    Hey, I'm an atheist and have been for most of my thinking life, and my father is an anglican priest. He's fine with that, I'm fine with his religion. If you're uncomfortable with the idea of others being different, you're probably not entirely sure of of your religion being right.

    That or a troll. Probably the latter.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:43 No.1696920
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    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:44 No.1696926
    Proof that a paladin isn't necessarily a Mary Sue.

    Lawful Badass
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:45 No.1696941
    Spoiler alert: NOBODY in Hellsing qualifies for the "Good" alignment.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:45 No.1696944
    I'm going to have to say that on the whole, regenerators tend to be Mary Sue incarnate.

    I mean, fucking Wolverine.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:51 No.1696977
    There has never been a good Paladin character, nor will there ever be.

    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:55 No.1697011
    King Arthur, you dumb shit.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:55 No.1697020
    Liberal use of the term "Mary Sue" does not make you cool. The whole D&D alignment system is utter shit. Alignment is just a question of motive, and how the motives surface. As long as people think they're doing the right thing, they're good. If they know they aren't, but they decide to just roll with it, they're neutral or evil. Lawful/chaotic is all about the setting. A paladin who can pull off being lawful good (law being determined by their place of origin, and good being whatever they believe is right) deserves their fucking paladin badge.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)20:57 No.1697032
    Inner conflict in a character should only be provoked at the roleplayer's discretion. Fags.
    >> Valgaav 05/09/08(Fri)21:09 No.1697132

    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)21:21 No.1697207
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    I hate to be an ass but no, He became Eriks after he was forced to destory the city of Augusta via Legatos evil shenanigans.

    After he gave Legato a new hole in the head he was dragged off by Miss Tsundere Meryl Styfe and Her partner and laid in bed until he healed, and then he went on a self loathing trip.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)21:24 No.1697238
    I fucked up with that picture posting not in my last post so,

    A paladin of the Tiny horse.

    "FOR PONY!"
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)21:53 No.1697428
    A palidan should not lose his powers for roughing up a scumbag to get the information he needs to get the job done and the evil vanquished.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)22:32 No.1697583

    >> Anonymous 05/09/08(Fri)23:44 No.1697918
    I never got it paladins don't get their powers from a god, but yet if they go against their code of conduct they lose said powers from said god...
    >> Anonymous 05/10/08(Sat)00:43 No.1698224

    Also, that could be considered torture, which is an evil act

    Gods don't take away their power, it's just your connection to the elemental forces of law and good are (temporarily?) severed.
    >> Anonymous 05/10/08(Sat)01:37 No.1698406
    >> Anonymous 05/10/08(Sat)03:30 No.1698888
    I think some of you forget that part of being good means that Paladin should make the punishment adequate to crime so you can't just go smiting everybody who says something evil.

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