Bigger and stronger forces of nature have better memories and are thus harder to fool, because they won't just bend over for you on the off-chance that you are who you say you are. They'll remember that the wizard who used to boss them around had a certain staff, for an example.
That doesn't mean you have to go find the staff. It does mean you need a staff who LOOKS like the staff they remember. The better the memory, the closer the resemblance has to be.
One storm might just remember that Azarat had a stick with a red gem. To fool it, all you need is literally a stick with a bit of red glass glued to the end. A bigger, older storm might remember more, down to an inscription on the side, and you'd have to hunt down a detailed description of the staff and construct one that can pass inspection.

How would you make this sort of magic system work in a game, and do you think it's any good?

>>1317142
Draw a cracky baneblade OP

I actually think it's rather good.
Functionality would depend on the players.

>>1317142
>>1317145
I kinda like it... It doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's pretty original, and has potential for lulz.

I'm just wondering how balanced it would be... If a player manages to look enough like a certain wizard, would their powers of command over certain things be limitless? Most magic systems have some kind of limit like mana cost of spells-per-day, but that wouldn't really fit into this.

Another thing is that it puts the extent of the player's power almost completely in the DM's hands. Which may not be a problem depending on your group, but a lot of players prefer to have at least some kind of underlying system that doesn't just rely on the DM going "uh, ok, you look enough like a wizard, so you get to cast that spell now."

>>1317142

I think it's cool that magic depends on you flim-flamming nature into doing your bidding. My only questions is, however, why does dressing up like a wizard give you power? Maybe nature will be fooled for a moment, but I think once they see that you actually possess no power to do anything with, they'll just ignore you. Or does dressing up like the old wizard actually GIVE you power?

I like it.

>>1317181
Yeah that's something to consider... What were the powers of those ancient wizards that the very forces of nature will willingly jump trough hoops for them?

Obviously they don't MAKE nature do those things, or it wouldn't work for players. It seems they were just such bad dudes that nature would do their bidding just to prevent pissing them off.

If the players had such powers, the whole playing dress-up routine would be useless, but if they didn't have such powers they're basically fucked the first time something doesn't automatically piss it's pants the moment it spots them...

Basically, the idea is sort of like dressing up as a general, walking up to a random bunch of soldiers and going "Hey! You there! Stop lounging around and get to work!"

And they look at you and see the fancy golden stars on your uniform and go shit, this guy must be important.

The general doesn't actually have to be able to beat up the entire army. He also doesn't have a bigger gun than the people in the army. But the army still does what he tells it.

>>1317191

That's sorta what I'm getting at. The first time that some fucking tornado or whatever realizes that these little jerkoffs were just playing dress up, I'm sure he's gonna be furious. Does dressing up as said old wizard GIVE you a measure of their power?

That'd make some measure of sense. Let's say there's Theo, The Really Cool Wizard. Theo has a blue robe, white shoes, monocle, and a staff with a dancing pig at the end. So, you go out and get all the stuff except the staff. Does magic recognize you as said wizard at some level? Do you actually gain magic? And if I do get a staff with a dancing pig at the end, will I gain more magic? Or is it all simply trickery?

>>1317205
All trickery. Nobody has any inherent magic powers anymore.

But all magic spirits and elementals have certain degrees of self-confidence. It's basically how sure they are they don't have to take your orders. Small spirits are very unsure of themselves and will bend over for almost anyone. Big storms are more likely to laugh in your face.

Basically, think of it as prayer. If you don't look like an authority, it works the way prayer works in the real world - not at all. If you DO look like an authority enough for the forces of nature to feel a nagging worm of doubt, then they get off their asses and do your bidding.

>>1317145
I play a Changeling with a hat of Disguise. I am now an Archmage.

The idea is that people no longer know what the Archmages looked like. Because, you know, random catastrophe which explains why they're no longer around. Probably caused by hubris or something.

So the path to True Ultimate Power is researching what the Archmages were like. I mean, if you find a passage that says that Theo the Awesome Mage really liked spaghetti, then wearing a cloak with spaghetti sauce stains makes you more recognizable as Theo.

Points for coming up with something original (as far as I know anyways) but the real trick is figuring out the system... which bottles the mind right now.

I have no idea how that is supposed to work as you described it. There has to be an additional trick to it other than, I fake it. There needs to be a stat (or set of stats) that determine how well you fake it.

I'd consider it something along the lines of animal trainers who might not have any inherent power but can get an animal to jump through a hoop. Unfortunately, the more I think along these lines the more I think of Pokey-Mans.

I choose you, flame elemental!

I like the concept but I have a few questions.

The wizards themselves are definitely dead and gone?
What happens if they figure this out?

And since they could of course just help you anyway couldn't you just convince them for the greater good to do as you ask?

>>1317251
I had some vague idea of a spirit's capability being the same as it's confidence level.

So if you need a Similarity rank of 3 to convince a spirit to do something, it has a 3 to do something for you. Like, if you order it to damage someone, it can cause three dice of damage.

>>1317261
The spirits are incapable of comprehending the idea that the wizards might be gone. In fact, if they could know it, they'd probably go insane.

As far as you can attribute human characteristics to spirits, they're lazy and self-serving. It's possible to deal with them without claiming to be an authority, but the spirits are not in any way sympathetic. They don't give a fuck about the plights of others. Altruism is alien to them.

>>1317251
I don't see this as too terribly hard to implement.

Its basically spells with a Bluff/Disguise check to cast. If you beat the Check, you can cast that spell, if you don't, something bad happens (least spirits difficulty goes up, lesser spirits ignore you for a while, stronger spirits will get uppity, so forth). In the case of actually getting an element riled up, your best bet may be to call the spirits you can control, and deliver a beat down, so it accepts you as being the genuine article.

Fakers have their base Bluff/Disguise, and the rest is circumstance bonuses. Research would be based around Knowledge (History) or a Research skill, which allows you to learn more about the wizards.

The main bit would be coming up with a number of original badass wizards, and codifying them. Alternatively, a random wizard generator, so that way players can't cheat their way to ultimate power by using info from the last game.

The Archmage [roll] Fabulous was known for his [roll, roll, roll] Pointed Purple Codpiece. +2 to your disguise.

>>1317305
Oh, also, Fakers should probably have some practical skills when dealing with their kind. Nothing as bothersome as running into another Fake r and having to resort to sissy slaps because the elements are so terrified of both of you.

>>1317305
So in lou of having a Wizard with a high INT stat all that would be needed is a good knowledge of these wizards and high charisma?

Also wouldn't this be more of a stat-piece to go with a plot of a game? Since I doubt it'll be common knowledge that 6 Wizards created the world or have a religion based around it.

You could also have various Archmages having various levels of influence on spirits depending on location. For an example, if Theo lived all his life on the P'dvaian Peninsula, the spirits there will be more subordinate to him than those on the other side of the world. However, they will also remember him better.

This lets you make a certain wizard predominant in one area, and knowing all about Theo won't help you if you're in Fabulous's domain.

What would happen if two people would pretend to be the same wizard? And what if they were both equally good at it?

>>1317322
Who knows? Depending on how secretive the fakers are, its perfectly possible that the wizards are known, but because these fakers can command reality, no one realizes the originals are dead and/or gone. Becoming one becomes an interesting prospect, which could make apprenticeship a unique experience. Also, later generations of fakers conflating their faker predecessors with the originals, leading to diminished power, and therefore a scrutinous eye out for the oldest (and presumably most reliable) information.

It would be a great system for a spoof setting or a spoof book. Other than that it sucks.

>>1317338
If it came to blows, the spirits would likely be too terrified to make a mistake so they don't get involved. Lets hope the Theos know how to kick ass the old fashioned way, or this could be a long fight.

Interesting system, but it seems a bit suspicious that thus far none of the spirits have figured out that the original wizards are gone. It seems that, in the many years since they left and the rest of the world took up cosplay to do magic, a couple of them would figure it out and spread the word, effectively making magic impossible.

>>1317339
Hm. I never considered that the fake outfits might be good enough to actually convince PEOPLE.

Charisma based casters? Wait, isn't that basically a Sorcerer?

Cool idea though.

>>1317339
Couldn't one also perfectly pretend to be the wizard and then slowly change his mannerisms around entirely?

"Well yeah, Great Wizard Vinerick was a little loopy 200 years ago, used to cackle wildly and touch little girls, then up around sometimes 20 years ago he started painting a lot, liked to run around outside in his boxers for no particular reason."

>>1317350
Spirits have a lot of blind spots, basically. Possibly they were even created BY the Archmages to be that way. But they're not altruistic in any case, so they're not willing to share information with other spirits.

In most cases, if a spirit begins to suspect that the wizards are gone, it goes insane and dies, causing general havoc and environmental damage. If it does somehow survive, it's still insane, but now it's got a god-complex and it starts demanding worship and sacrifice from scared nomadic desert tribes.

>>1317363
That might work on small spirits, who are insecure to go "oh shit," in a squeaky little thought-voice, "what if he's telling the truth? What if Varrick really did start painting? Oh shit oh shit oh shit! Maybe I'd better do as he says, just in case."

Bigger spirits are more conservative. They greatly dislike the idea of change. (the idea that the wizards are dead is a very big change, so of course they hate it).

>>1317350

different anon here. first off, why should the spirits be able to communicate with each other? And who says they even RECOGNIZE each other? There's no particular reason they should... imagine, each spirit is a single incarnation of nature, but is solely and ONLY concerned with it's own domain.

therefore, failing to fool one elemental won't make it harder to fool others... but WILL make it harder to fool that one again.

...Also, though the clothes and appearence could certianly be a part of it, I would recommend other methods of recognition as well. Knowing things the sorcerers of old said, things they did, ways they dressed and acted. But further, how about the ways they lived, how they acted toward people, and maybe how people acted because of them? Movements they started? the way things happened around them, in general?

Maybe the spirits' memories are also not so good, and a Deja Vu moment could be enough to claim their subservience?

Maybe you try to command the Storm during an eclipse, not because the Eclipse gives you power, but becuase that;'s how the sorcerer did it before, and the storm will remember?

And maybe, the more smaller spirits you can command, the easier you'll find it to manipulate conditions to awaken the fearful memories of the larger ones?

>>1317373
This would work well, as then to command the mightiest of magics, you really would need to match the original closely.

>>1317363
>Couldn't one also perfectly pretend to be the wizard and then slowly change his mannerisms around entirely?

different anon again. And yeah, sure you could. And yeah, spirits would become suspicious, depending on how powerful you are. but different spirits remember different things, and if you can maintain control over enough of them, you'll have enough power to subjugate the rebelious ones anyway.

Which is what the old Wizards would have done. Which makes ALL of them believe in you that much more. Which makes you, in fact, more powerful.

I like the idea but it seems it would be a bit hard to realistically prevent everyone in the world running round in red boots, a white shirt and purple boxer shorts, casting magic missile because Archmage Donkington wore them.

Unless you go with a similar idea to what I just came up with. The mages could have had a certain metalic badge, which had a symbol of the mage on it.

The mages of the current time could circulate copies of the badges enabling thrall mages etc to command power, the level of power depending on the looks.

The arch mages who impersonate the original mages down to a hair could have the original badges.

>>1317385
Oh, yes, it's not just clothes and accessories, but also mannerisms and pet names and everything. Some women fakers draw charcoal goatees on their faces.

Drinking the right sort of tea, having your nails trimmed to just the right length (or having them bitten down to stubs), everything counts.

Magic rituals are basically just "the way the wizard always did it" and it's what the spirit is most familiar with.

Incidentially, I think I've figured out how the general catastrophe happened. Wizards had a fight, a couple of them died, the spirits saw it and went insane, which is the magical equivalent of the Chernobyl reactor melting down.

>>1317415
Like I said, the records have mostly been lost, due to the catastrophe responsible for getting rid of the wizards in the first place.

And yes, if you have enough spirits acknowledging you as a master, some will figure you must be the real thing, since otherwise you wouldn't have such a following.

I keep asking questions just cause I'm curious on how they would work, so don't get disheartened by my constant bullshit.

Now lets say someone in your game wanted to become a Lich would it be done in a traditional sense or would he have to have some spirits help him out? Or would he technically become a spirit?

And now lets say two wizards, who are faking the same wizard get into an epic magic contest together. The winner is basically the better faker, or is this just guaranteed to make the spirits go "FUCK YOU PEOPLE".

>>1317385
>different anon here. first off, why should the spirits be able to communicate with each other? And who says they even RECOGNIZE each other? There's no particular reason they should... imagine, each spirit is a single incarnation of nature, but is solely and ONLY concerned with it's own domain.

I really like this idea. But let's take it a step further... the spirits cannot even SEE eachother, and are completely unaware of eachother's existance.

This way, a 'wizard' who gains control of a few spirits becomes more convincing to other spirits because he's using 'magic'. So he must be a real wizard... What the spirit doesn't know it that that magic is just another spirit like him.

Which may, depending on how you play it, even lead to certain 'classes', each based on a different ancient wizard and defined by what spirits that wizard used and how he used them. For example, a spirit might remember that wizard Bob used lots of fire magic, so he wouldn't be impressed by water magic. Another spirit might remember that wizard Harry used a lot of water magic, so he'd be relatively easily convinced that the same player is in fact a wizard.

>>1317416
As far as the originals are concerned them duking it out to the death seems kind of inappropriate. A disaster caused by their disappearance is fine, but that disappearance could just as easily be 'they all left this world (to go to a pub)'.

Also thought: Maybe one of them is still around, but not using his identity. The spirits won't listen to him as a matter of course, but as a guy who created reality, he doesn't need their help. He just hangs out for the lols.

>>1317442
If one is a better faker, he's got spirits that will listen to him and not the other guy. If they're both equally good (same level), the spirits don't get involved out of fear of pissing off the wizards. The wizards have to sissy fight, unless they didn't get too spoiled by having reality at their command and kept up with the practical skills.

>Oh, yes, it's not just clothes and accessories, but also mannerisms and pet names and everything. Some women fakers draw charcoal goatees on their faces.

What different Anon is saying, though, is it should be beyond physical appearence, mannerisms, or things you say. If events remind the spirits of the old times, they'll do as they did before.

The spirits don't just see you. they can see everyone else too. so if you can manipulate the people around you, you'll do better with the spirits. Impersonating the wizard gets you power, and the better you do it, the more power you get. But impersonating the Wizard's WORLD is even better. The spirit looks at you, he sees something that looks like the wizard that commanded him. he looks behind you, and he sees the scene where he was commanded. Maybe that means you summon your spirits during a play that re-enacts some famous moment in history, where the wizard took part. Maybe that means you need to hire some peasents to reenact a battle.

Then again, peasents are poor actors. Maybe, if it's a really big spirit? You might need to trick some people into fighting a real one.

>>1317445
>I really like this idea. But let's take it a step further... the spirits cannot even SEE each other, and are completely unaware of eachother's existance.

...Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to say. WE ARE THINKING ALIKE!

>>1317484
>The wizards have to sissy fight, unless they didn't get too spoiled by having reality at their command and kept up with the practical skills.

...The sissy-fighting is, of course, exactly what it sounds like. No point in trying to damage the other wizrd, just go after his costume while protecting your own. Trying to de-beard a real beard will, of course, cost you major credability, so be smart and look carefully. Oh, he tugged off your glasses? Better pretend you can't see...

>>1317486
Ah, I see what you mean, and I like it.

>>1317452
Why does it seem inappropriate? The old wizards could all have been arrogant bastards, so obviously they were going to conflict eventually.

>>1317516
I don't know, it just seems that nigh omnipotent badasses would actually be pretty cool dudes if you could get over how massively dickish they were. Like a brotherhood of assholes who would sit around and swap stories, not fight. Though bonus points if the legends misconstrue them entirely and think they did kill each other.

>>1317516
>Why does it seem inappropriate? The old wizards could all have been arrogant bastards, so obviously they were going to conflict eventually.

Different anon here. whatever started it, I really, really like the "spirit Chernobyl" idea. It fits the basic groove of the more power you have, the easier it is to get more powerfil. this whole idea seems to run on an exponential curve. both power and disaster build upon themselves.

Hmmm....If they have multiple minor elementals, can the combine them making a larger one?

A Multielemental, If you will?

This pleases me.

>>1317484
Of course, the real wizards never killed people with point objects, so the injured one must be the real deal.

>>1317531
Okay Voltron.

>>1317532
*pointy objects

>I don't know, it just seems that nigh omnipotent badasses would actually be pretty cool dudes if you could get over how massively dickish they were.

There might have only been one conflict, and a minor one at that. Even good friends can let a problem get out of hand; The wizards didn't mean for to destroy anything. all they did was cause the spirits to doubt them, and once doubting, all that power ran away uncontrolably and ruined everything.

>>1317525
Well, something needs to have gone horribly wrong for the wizards not to be here anymore, and for us to have spirit Chernobyl. If not the wizards turning on each other, what?

>>1317539
Hm...maybe they made some sort of Vow to the spirits never to do a certain thing in exchange for authority over the spirits, and then for some reason they broke the Vow, cue insanity and death?

So, how do we turn this into a game? What elements have we got here?

There's trying to find details of the old wizards. Many of the records are fakes, planted by other wizards trying to through off the opposition. Many are held by earthly powers. Locating, gaining access, and determining provenance provide all the usual, mundane adventuring points.

Locating spirits? Dunno.

Binding spirits? Simple enough to do as a die-roll, but there's got to be a more satisfying way to make it part of the game.

Engineering events could be a pleasently machiavelian adventure, as your mechanations conflict with the schemes of the locals around you...

Contests between wizards... hmm.

Keep this thread alive, /tg/. I'll check back in when I wake up tonight. I dearly hope to see more.

>>1317542
As per my previous suggestion, they could simply have left reality to go out for a drink or some such. The absence of the wizards themselves is the cause of the problem, some spirits went crazy. Legends abound that the Wizards killed each other.

Maybe some day, when the Wizards recover from their hang over, they'll come back and realize they forgot to account for the passage of relative time or some shit.

>>1317565
one last note before different anon leaves. You have to do one set of things to get the spirits to give you power to use in the mortal world.

You have to do another set of things to convince the mortal world to do things properly to help you convince the spirits.

These two sets of goals can and should conflict badly...

>>1317569
I dunno, it kind of reminds me of a WH40Kian "Everyone is fucked when _________ comes back."

>>1317596
...I actually prefer the "wizards were destroyed" version, but to back up his...

maybe this is why the spirits bother to listen. They know weren't there yesterday, and people say that the wizards were destroyed, but they remember a lot, and THEY don't remember destroying any wizards...

>>1317596
Thats from /co/, and the Hulk.

>>1317613
Ah. My explanation was that the spirits who do remember were the ones who crashed and burned and went all meltdown on everybody.

I don't know anything about the Hulk except that he's green and you won't like him when he's angry.

seriously, guys, way past my bedtime, but... please don't let this thread die.

Please.

THIS IS MY FAVOURITE IDEA OF ALL TIME

Thank you, sire, for rousing me from hibernation; I must now devote myself to making up a wide variety of ancient wizards with ridiculous character traits to imitate.

This must not die. Bump.

Fuck d20 and fuck D&D. You suckas need to grab hold of Nobilis and nick the diceless system.

Only way to do this.

A major point that i think deserves some serious discussion:

All "present" magic is just tricking Nature into believing that you're one of those ancient wizards. It's trickery.

But what about the powers of THOSE wizards? Where did they come from? Was that True Magic, whose secrets are now lost forever? Or what else?

>>1318087
Every story is different, it's up to the players to look at the ranting of each village elder and every dusty tome and work out what really was the case and what the Spirits of nature remember.
For some, it was a war. Others an accident. And some even say they did it on purpose to seal forever their ancient magics from the corruption of men.
Who knows? Not even the councils of the four great true-elementals recall.

>>1318087
They're pretty much 'God'.
From another universe, of magic, they created this one.
Or some shit, I dunno.

>>1318094
So, wait, do the most powerful of the spirits have a wider knowledge of humans and their true natures? I'm imagining the North Wind would be pretty fucking astute.

Nobilis would really work for this. The character/world point-buy creation rules lend themselves to the easy creation of multiple wizard and back-history combinations.

Unknown Armies could really work for this idea.

Also: even if the original Magus' died, the created the WORLD. Who says they aren't coming back? That element of uncertainty is what makes the spirits obey.

I mean, sure, those mages had an argument and killed each other...but they might have come back. And if they did, well, whose side do you think the spirits want to be on? The side with the creators of the universe on it.

>>1317531
I LIKE THIS IDEA.

>>PRO-TIP; The plural form of Magus is Magi. Just so you know.

>>1318191
no its not your stupid where did you learn to english

>>1318191
For a change, can we discuss the merit of an idea, rather than how it is spelled?

>>1318203

Wisest words on the board today.

EXCUSE ME YOUR DISCUSSION OF WHAT THE CORRECT PLURAL OF "MAGUS" IS IS IRRELEVANT AND WORTHLESS.

IF YOU HAVE NOT NOTICED, WORDS TAKEN FROM LATIN INTO ENGLISH TYPICALLY HAVE THE LATIN PLURALS AS THEIR ENDINGS. HOWEVER, THIS IS ENGLISH, NOT LATIN, AND ENGLISH PLURALIZATION RULES ARE DIFFERENT THAN LATIN'S. THEREFORE, ENGLISH SPEAKERS CAN ONLY ACQUIRE THE LATIN PLURALIZATION RULES THROUGH MEMORIZATION, AND UNLIKE OTHER IRREGULAR PLURALS, THESE FORMS ARE USED LESS AND LESS. THEREFORE, FROM A LINGUISTIC STANDPOINT, IT IS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE TO SAY OR WRITE "MAGUSES" IN CONVERSATIONAL OR INFORMAL ENGLISH.

(EITHER WAY, "MAGUS'" CAN'T BE A PLURAL FOR MAGUS.)

ALSO, DO YOU FUCKING SAY "AN AGENDUM"? IF SO, YOU ARE MOST LIKELY A PSEUDO-INTELLECTUAL.

>>1318253

Thank you, oh great Inquisitor of the Ordos Grammaticus. Your service to The Emperor knows no boundary.

I wanted to make a stupid sexy folk song out of the OP'S post. Our Guitarist even made a cool melody - but he hates the concept :(

BAMPU

Keeping this alive...

Archive this? Please?

bump

and a bump on waking.

Rather then mages make them diety beings and make the new wizards have a tiny fragment of the old power but not enough to acually do the magic on their own until high level play. Make the final boss an old god.

A fantastic idea, OP. In my opinion this works best in a very low fantasy setting with no-die system, or atleast something else than d20 like The Riddle of Steel.

This would make an astonishing game when mixed with aspects from the finnish Praedor setting.

archived already. good times.

>>1318114
IGNORE THIS MAN. HE LIES, AND DELIGHTS IN SPREADING FALSEHOOD AMONG THE FAITHFUL.

>>1320264
While all of this is true, and I do delight in spreading falsehoods, which elements in particular are lies? Out of curiosity of course.

Archive requested.