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  • File :1197915501.gif-(14 KB, 354x300, d20Systemlogo.gif)
    14 KB Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)13:18 No.909612  
    So /teegee/, what's the worst RPG system you've ever played?
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)13:22 No.909619
    ITT we make really bad choices of things to attack for trolling purposes because nobody particularly cares about them.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)13:24 No.909624
    Pic had better not be related.
    >> I see what you did there. Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)13:26 No.909629
         File :1197915983.png-(76 KB, 554x541, D&D Is Just Shit.png)
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    Dungeons & Dragons is the "Windows" of tabletop RPGs. When an average person thinks about roleplaying games, he imagines a group of nerds playing D&D, just as he imagines someone using Windows when he thinks about computers. D&D is the system that everybody knows about and has tried at least once (most often tried as the first RPG), just as how Windows is the operating system most people start with. D&D is the iconic and most widespread RPG, while Windows is likewise the most mainstream operating system. Although they're both so popular, everybody just loves railing against them, saying that they're "shittily-designed" or "obsolete even when it was first released". Whenever there is to be a major update in the product, everybody flies into a frenzy about how it's going to be the end of the world and how the company is composed of selfish money-grubbers that don't care about their customers. Even with all of their flaws, both of them are fine most of the time, and have the most support and compatible products (the d20 system for D&D, the games and applications for Windows), which probably contributes to their popularity.

    The other systems: GURPS, Storyteller, Shadowrun, 7th Sea, WFRP... these can be viewed as the alternative commercial OSes or the open-source ones, such as Mac OS X, Linux, GNU, or Unix. Lots of hardcore RPGers have a "real gamer" mentality, in that "real gamers" play their RPG and that everybody else is doing it wrong; go to /g/ and you'll see the same phenomenon in the form of skub wars over operating systems. However, they all agree to rail against the big daddy, D&D for RPGs and Windows for OSes. But since they're all splintered into different camps, they can never topple the corporate giant in terms of popularity. Regardless, they're still capable of typing out prose and rants on how D&D/Windows is shit and voicing their frustration on how such a shitty system can be so popular. Lots of them have good, valid points; others, not so much.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)13:26 No.909630
    >>909624

    For me it is.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)13:33 No.909642
    >>909629


    Under the bridge it is dark, no light to hurt his eyes and to scar his skin. It is quiet, the soft trickle of water sounds calming him. The stone arch that stands over his head feels secure, strong. His home is rooted in giant foundation stones, and that strength works it's way up into the bridge, making him feel safe.

    When the light begins to sap, and the orange glow recedes over the skyline, he takes a moment to appreciate the beauty of the dark swirling water. The eddies of gloss black occasionally ripple as fish rise to pluck mayflies off the perfect blackness of the river-surface.

    He grunts, and goes back into his home; formed by an alcove in the arch of the bridge. He goes into his larder, finds some pasta that he likes the smell of, then takes it over to his pot.

    He lights his fire, the pungent smoke of wet wood drifting out of his small abode. He found the strong smell comforting, covering the rot of the corpses strung up at the entrance. Putting the old, cold pasta into the pot, he stirs hopefully.

    He tastes it, to test whether it is warm enough. It is lukewarm, but the fire is dying down and he doesn't want to go out to get more wood tonight, so he takes the pasta out of the pot, puts in on a surprisingly clean plate, then shuffles out of his alcove.

    Climbing on the top of the bridge, he admires the stars, or rather, the black spaces between the stars.

    Several villagers have fallen for last nights pasta, and they sit in huddled groups, held by long wire nooses. The troll takes his club, and -with a professional air- he cracks each ones over the head, and they slump to the floor one by one. He doesn't like the screaming.

    He takes the half eaten pasta from the last night, and replaces it with todays steaming plate, setting up the snares again.

    The sun is beginning to rise, and he hastens back under the bridge with his meat, to sleep the day out, happy as a troll can be.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)13:34 No.909644
    >>909642
    Oops, I forgot my sage.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)17:45 No.910123
    I've played OD&D, AD&D1, AD&D2, D&D3.x, BESM, BESM2, BESM 3, Tristat dx, FATAL, Aberrant, oWoD, nWoD, Shadowrun 2, Shadowrun 3, WHFRPG, Inquisitor, 7th Sea, Cyberuink, new Cyberpunk, Bubblegum Crisis RPG, Castle Falkenstein, Dragonball Z RPG, Mekton/Mekton Zeta, Star Wars OCR, RCR and SWSE and Atomik Fuzion.

    The only games I will never willingly play again are nWoD, FATAL, AD&D1, AD&D2 and BESM 3
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)18:21 No.910149
    >>909642
    Ooh, haven't seen that copypasta before.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)18:42 No.910161
    >>910149
    An anti-copypasta troll copypasta about trolls?

    More likely than you would think.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)18:47 No.910172
    Palladium

    /thread
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:02 No.910215
    >>910123

    >>The only games I will never willingly play again are nWoD, FATAL, AD&D1, AD&D2 and BESM 3

    >>FATAL

    Wait... you mean that at one point you WILLINGLY played FATAL?
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:08 No.910233
    >>910172
    >>910172
    >>910172
    >>910172>>910172>>910172!!!!!
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:21 No.910270
    >>909612

    OP got it in one.

    D20 for D&D and fantasy-related games works alright.

    But somewhere along the line, somebody thought they could use d20 for any other genre there was. D20 is just shit for more modern-day settings, sci-fi settings, horror settings, superhero settings, and come to think of it ANY SETTING THAT IS *NOT D&D^.

    I am utterly befuddled why there are so many non-D&D books published using d20 rules.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:21 No.910275
    >>910172

    Winrar.
    >> Lord Licorice 12/17/07(Mon)19:22 No.910277
    >>909642

    FUKKEN SAVED.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:22 No.910279
    Hands down, FATAL.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:30 No.910298
    >>910172
    Palladium has FURRY RPGs. TMNT? That I can tolerate. They are hideious mutants that the world hates and fears.

    After the Bomb? THEY ARE THE WORLD, AND ALL HUMANS ARE HATEFUL RACISTS WHO ARE ACTUALLY *PARTIALLY* FURRY, BUT SEEK TO KILL ALL OBVIOUS FURS. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.
    >> Lord Licorice 12/17/07(Mon)19:31 No.910305
    >>910298

    Quiet, you fool, you're skirting dangerously close to mentioning Furry Pirates. If you men
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:34 No.910317
    Dnd with tomb of battle is horrible. Dnd without tomb of battle is tolerable. I predict the new mmo 4e dnd will be like dnd with tomb of battle to the 11th power.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:36 No.910321
    >>910317

    yeah, fuck those optional supplements ruining our games!

    owait
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:37 No.910330
    >>910279

    Liar, no one has ever played FATAL.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:39 No.910335
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    Exalted.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:39 No.910336
    >>910270
    >I am utterly befuddled why there are so many non-D&D books published using d20 rules.

    The answer is simple: the open-gaming license. The d20 rules are free and accessible, and so companies can quickly put out new games by slapping a new setting on the d20 rules. It almost never works properly (see shit like the Babylon 5 rpg *shudders*). The only time it's okay is when a lot of work goes into adapting the system (see Mutants and Masterminds), at which point it's almost unrecognizable from the original d20 anyways.

    As for what you said about d20 not working for anything else, I'll have to disagree on one point: I think d20 modern is actually much better than DnD 3.5. Mind you, it's not very good (and classes have no place in a modern RPG, but they did a decent job of mitigating that), but it's better than DnD in most respects.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:46 No.910358
    Yeah. MMO: The Paper edition is going to kill D&D, and wotc. every single damn thing on the planet will be so overpowered.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)19:54 No.910376
    Rifts.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:01 No.910395
    >>910270
    Pfft. Simple way to make D20 Modern have a bit more of a feeling of modern combat: don't play past very low levels, allow firearms to make attacks of opportunity within the first range increment. You poke your head up from cover, you're gonna get shot.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:07 No.910418
    >>910336
    >The answer is simple: the open-gaming license.

    Funny you should mention that. The OGL is an amusing smoke-and-mirrors-trick: EVERY rule set in the world is "open" in the same way because you cannot copyright, patent, trademark or in any other way protect rules, you can only protect the text that describes the rules.

    Any one of us could make an RPG that was rules-wise identical to D&D or Vampire or anything he wanted and call it his own as long as he described all the stuff in slightly different words.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:08 No.910422
         File :1197940103.jpg-(1.31 MB, 2320x3000, 1197225864872.jpg)
    1.31 MB
    >>910270
    >I am utterly befuddled why there are so many non-D&D books published using d20 rules.

    Familiarity. EVERYONE knows how to play D&D, so making a D20 supplement is a sure win (financially). In fact, that's a good part of why D&D is still such a popular game. It's popular because it's familiar and it's familiar because it's popular.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:12 No.910436
    >>910418
    You just revealed yourself to be a complete fucking newfag underage b&. Or you'd remember the litigation hulabaloo surrounding the use of terms like AC and the unofficial supplements to AD&D and all that jazz.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:12 No.910437
         File :1197940331.png-(22 KB, 640x512, rpg_rules_chart.png)
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    The worst RPG system I have actually _played_ is a certain old small-press horror RPG the name of which I have conveniently forgotten. It had a whole bunch of incredible bugs, such as none of your stats actually affecting hand-to-hand combat (there were stats like strength, agility and an unarmed combat skill, they just forgot to make them DO anything).

    Either that, or the red-box edition of 1st edition D&D (which back then didn't even have a way to resolve general noncombat situations - that "roll under your stat on a d20" thing that so many DMs use is just a house rule).
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:16 No.910450
    >>910418
    lulz. Speaking of smoke and mirrors...

    I mean, there's a reason that there is almost no Palladium fansites out there. They sued people who tried to even convert the damn game.

    And most of the free rulesets out there do their best to work with every possible setting and concept. Which of course, usually ends up being "UP TO GM'S DECISION" at best, and at worst trying to do everything possible and failing hard at specific settings.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:18 No.910457
    Over the Edge. Awesome setting, but I can't even be fucked to remember the mechanics.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:18 No.910458
    >>910422

    Tru dat. Even if you haven't played the actual D&D, there's a good chance you have played one of the computar RPGs that were made with the D&D license, and if you have, you know how to play D&D. It has reached a critical mass of attention where all the attention it gets gets it more attention.

    This is why I think that instead of bashing the fuck out of D&D, people who hate it should speak good of non-D&D games they like instead. All bashing D&D does is give it more attention, especially if you're not going to even mention any alternatives.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:22 No.910473
    >>910418
    >you can only protect the text that describes the rules

    But that's exactly my point. The OGL allows publishers to lift the reprint the rules almost verbatim, so why bother coming up with something new? d20 works (sorta), and everyone who's played DnD already knows it, so why not use it? It's sad, but true.
    >> Rival Wombat 12/17/07(Mon)20:25 No.910483
    >>910437
    Wow, it's odd how much bawwwing there is about D&D. I don't think anyone is advancing the argument that it's perfect but it doesn't come into your home and put sand in your vagina.

    I'm going to say early exalted is the worst RPG I have ever played, with no balance, a shitty setting and a system that offers you all the worst parts of the already bad storyteller system.

    I think RIFTs is an easy runner up, with crazy, unbalanced rules and endless difficulty with things like creating characters. It escapes being the worst because the over the top, cyborgs fighting ninja dinosaurs setting was funny, rather then total shit like Exalted.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:28 No.910490
    >>909629
    >or the open-source ones, such as Mac OS X

    You were making perfect sense up until there. Go kill yourself. Now.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:36 No.910508
    >>910483
    >Wow, it's odd how much bawwwing there is about D&D. I don't think anyone is advancing the argument that it's perfect but it doesn't come into your home and put sand in your vagina.

    Actually, it kind of does.

    I think the majority of the hate d20 gets because it's the only game left anymore. Well that's inaccurate - it gets the hate because it's a bad system that's barely good enough for D&D and total shit for any other use - but the hate gets voiced so often and loud because there are no real alternatives being published anymore - maybe a little Vampire, but everything else is either on life support or dead. I don't know if the d20-OGL clut is to blame for everything else disappearing from the shelves or if it's just the idiotic publishing habits of the RPG "industry" coming to bite them in the ass, but it happened the same time so a lashback of impotent hate is a given.

    It used to be, in the early 90's, that you could waltz into a hobby store and take your pick from 20-30 or more vastly different systems that were all supported with many add-ons. In those days it was easy to ignore D&D if you disliked it. Not so much today when it's a million d20 products, some WHite WOlf, and maybe a single book of Shadowrun or something.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:41 No.910515
    >>910508
    Then get them to order in something you want, jackass.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:45 No.910528
    >>910515

    They can't "order it in" because it doesn't even get _published_. It doesn't exist. They don't make that stuff anymore, they just make more d20 shit.
    >> Rival Wombat 12/17/07(Mon)20:47 No.910537
    >>910508
    Rifts, Cuthulutech, Scion, Mage, Werewolf, Changeling, Mechwarrior RPG..

    There are dozens of RPG's out and in print. You can find all sorts of stuff at most LGS.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)20:53 No.910559
    >>910537
    >There are dozens of RPG's out and in print: Cthulutech and Mechwarrior RPG.

    Edited out the games that aren't WoD or total industry jokes.

    I loathe d20 and I do not fucking like WoD either. Neither do I like artsy-fartsy Forge games. That leaves me with pretty much dick: Cthulhu, Shadowrun, and a bunch of unsupported stuff that never gets even two add-ons. Cthulhutech I'll give you, but it is the only new thing in years I have been honestly excited for, when just 15 short years ago there were dozens of SUPPORTED games that used DIFFERENT systems out there.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:08 No.910632
    >>910559
    So basically you don't do tabletop anymore, you just hang around to bemoan the passage of the "good old days". If Waldorf and Statler, the old dudes in the balcony on The Muppet Show, if they finally managed to conceive a son, I think that'd pretty well describe him.
    >> Rival Wombat 12/17/07(Mon)21:11 No.910644
    >>910559

    Scion isn't world of darkness. And I can give endless other examples, like GRUPs, Dream Pod Nine's Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicals and Gear Kreig RPG's.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:13 No.910655
    Hey, everyone whining about d20: do what my group did until we died from disinterest and people not showing up on time: make your own shit. It's insanely rewarding making your own stuff to use and you can just make as many tweaks as you feel necessary to achieve the level of game balance is comfortable for your group. What we ended up doing was taking most of the combat classes from D&D, keeping them, and then throwing out all of the spellcasters and then I made a replacement for the monk class that went more in the direction I wanted. Since it's a game based on imagination, I thought this solution was obvious. It's cheaper, too.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:16 No.910664
    >>910632

    Except without DOHOHOHOHOHO.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:16 No.910665
    No one's said GURPS. You know what that means? It's the best system.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:19 No.910675
    >>910664
    We can't rule that out just yet.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:19 No.910677
    >>910215
    It was a few years ago, I didn't know what it was and we all used pregenerated characters and our GM walked through the rules. 15 minutes into the first session, after we finally read all of the stats on our sheets, we all quit playing. The GM was butthurt, and we never let him GM a game after that.
    >> Rival Wombat 12/17/07(Mon)21:22 No.910687
    >>910665
    I think it's more that nobody plays it, ever. Despite havening a source book or two sitting around.

    "Hey, GURP's Rome.. why don't we play that?" "Oh, I don't have the GURP's core rules."
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:25 No.910693
    >>910644
    >Scion isn't world of darkness.

    Neither is Exalted, but they both use a variant of the same system.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:26 No.910703
    >>910644
    >Dream Pod Nine's Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicals and Gear Kreig RPG's.

    What the fuck? I haven't even heard of those, let alone seen them on a store shelf.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:29 No.910722
    >>910632
    >So basically you don't do tabletop anymore, you just hang around to bemoan the passage of the "good old days"

    WELL FUCKING DUH. That's because nobody fucking publishes good stuff anymore, they just publish d20 and WoD which fucking sucks for anyone who doesn't like those two systems. What the fuck should I do, grit my teeth and play that worthless shit anyway? How about fucking no.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:30 No.910727
    >>910703

    Then you have a shitty game store, and/or you're ignorant faggot.

    I'm thinking the latter.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:32 No.910735
    >>910703
    http://www.dp9.com/

    Your local stores probably don't carry their products if no one has asked for them lately, that's what I've noticed. It's the catch-22 of gaming retail: Demand will bring greater visibility, but visibility is a lot of what drives demand.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:32 No.910736
    >>910722
    >>What the fuck should I do
    Well, I was going to suggest "get over your fashionably affected resentment of popular things and risk having fun for a change", but I think "shut up and go somewhere else" would be more expeditious.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:35 No.910742
         File :1197945311.jpg-(146 KB, 292x477, spiritofthecentury.jpg)
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    >>910722
    Ahem.

    Support good games, or else you get d20'd.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:36 No.910746
    In before essay-length rant on the mortal sins of D&D that still doesn't change the fact that the poster is still bitter and alone on his mountaintop of unreachable standards.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:37 No.910754
    >>910727

    Okay faggots, let's play it this way: give me ten... oh, let's say fantasy, sword-and-sorcery type games that are use neither d20 nor WoD rules and are alive and well. They don't even have to be good ones, just supported (which means they have MULTIPLE supplements with more on the horizon), and out there in stores.

    I'll even help you out by writing down the ones I know:

    1. Runequest (though it's debataböe whether it's "supported" anymore, most of its stuff was released in the 80's)
    2. Riddle of Steel (which is a nice effort in doing things differently, but not to my liking because rolling 50 d10s in one combat round is just silly)
    3. Warhammer Fantasy Battle (same caveat as with 1 - I haven't heard of plans for new supplements)
    4-10: ???

    Reign does NOT count, so don't suggest it. It's not in stores and it doesn't have supplements.

    Give me fucking seven more and I'll concede and shut the fuck up.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:37 No.910756
    >>910722
    >>910703
    >bawww i am underpriveleged and don't get to try new gaems all rpgs suck now bawww. also, older rpgs i liekd self-destructed up 3 years after they were released so ic an't play them anymore
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:39 No.910761
    >>910754
    Reign has four supplements released under the ransom model.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:39 No.910762
    >>910736
    >fashionably affected resentment of popular things

    Ah, the age-old "you hate it because it's popular" argument, how have I missed thee.

    No, I don't hate it because it's popular. NOBODY does that. I hate it because it's bad and poorly designed and does not entertain me at all. Kindly shut your lie hole.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:40 No.910764
    >>910756
    No, I think the reason he can't play them any more is he probably drove all his friends away by now.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:41 No.910771
    >>910762
    >>No, I don't hate it because it's popular. NOBODY who does it admits to it.
    Fixed. Well, if that's the case, then you're left with option 2. Ta-ta.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:42 No.910774
    >>910754
    Fantasy sword-and-sorcery type games are a pretty weak genre anyway, since anyone who wants to play it will generally settle into "some kind of D&D" mode.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:51 No.910807
    >>910687
    Truth, sadly. GURPS can do so much, but no one plays. Or owns books. Or cares. Oh well...
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)21:58 No.910836
         File :1197946722.jpg-(208 KB, 1280x1024, 1194016224802.jpg)
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    >>910754
    1. Runequest (though it's debataböe whether it's "supported" anymore, most of its stuff was released in the 80's)
    2. Riddle of Steel (which is a nice effort in doing things differently, but not to my liking because rolling 50 d10s in one combat round is just silly)
    3. Warhammer Fantasy RolePlay was probably what you were after
    4. HARP/Rolemaster
    5. All Flesh Must Be Eaten RPG
    6. Ars Magica
    7. Battlestar Galactica RPG
    8. Blue Rose
    9. GURPS
    10. Paranoia

    Now shut up then!
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:00 No.910843
    >>910754

    4: Earthdawn
    5: Savage Worlds of Solomon Kane (uses Savage Worlds system)
    6: Weapons of the Gods (wuxia is the Chinese version of sword and sorcery)
    7: Artesia: Adventures in the known world (uses Fuzion system)
    8: Pendragon (ok, not realy sword & sorcery, but it's still fantasy)
    9: All Flesh Must Be Eaten (if you use the Dungeons & Zombies supplement, which counts)
    10: Legend of the Five Rings (weaboo samurai sword & sorcery)

    (Not so) honorable mention: stuff like Palladium Fantasy, Harnmaster, Slaine, Rolemaster are still out.

    There, how's that?
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:00 No.910844
    >>910836
    >>sword-and-sorcery type games
    >>All Flesh Must Be Eaten RPG
    >>Battlestar Galactica RPG
    >>Paranoia
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:00 No.910847
    >>910836
    Blue Rose is d20.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:04 No.910856
    >>910843
    It's weird, but for some reason L5R just doesn't strike me as hugely weaboo. It's Japanese as all fuck, but there's not much of that pervasive, odorous cloud of "anime-ness" around it that seems like a prerequisite for being truly weaboo. But I might be alone in thinking that, and my impression's based just on reading the books, not playing it.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:04 No.910857
    >>910843

    Oh yeah, forgot to add new Mongoose editions of Glorantha, Lankhmar, Elric/Stormbringer, and Hawkmoon.

    So yeah, that's more than seven in total.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:05 No.910859
    >>910836
    >4. HARP/Rolemaster

    When was that supported, 1988?
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:05 No.910861
    >>910847
    True20, which is d20 with all the ass taken out. And that's a lotta ass.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:06 No.910866
    >>910843
    >Artesia: Adventures in the known world (uses Fuzion system)

    Tell me more. Fuzion was fuckwin back when it was called "the CP2020 system".
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:08 No.910875
    >>910866
    The hell is that? Roll two d20s and wager child pornography on everything?
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:09 No.910879
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    >>910866

    It's basically the same system from CP2020, but with a TON of added rules. Stuff like magic, prophecy, and advancement through a tarot-like system. Like if you're born under a certain sign or omen, you get some bonuses or penalties if you fulfill or match the requirements.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:09 No.910880
    >>910875
    cyberpunk 2020, you fucktard
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:09 No.910881
    >>910859
    HARP Revised was out in 2004 I think. Still gets stuff made for it.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:10 No.910884
    >6: Weapons of the Gods (wuxia is the Chinese version of sword and sorcery)
    >10: Legend of the Five Rings (weaboo samurai sword & sorcery)

    For fuck's sake, why don't you suggest BESM while you're at it? After all, that's just ANIME sword and sorcery!

    Don't try to wiggle your way around the task, there's no need to.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:11 No.910891
    >>910861
    Yep, all that ass. Like options, I fucking hated having access to a slew of options so I could customize and fine tune my character. God damn those options.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:11 No.910892
    >>910857
    >>910843

    /thread

    Now shut the fuck up, >>910754
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:11 No.910895
    >>910875
    >The hell is that? Roll two d20s and wager child pornography on everything?

    4chan: the game.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:12 No.910898
    >>910754
    Okay faggots, let's play it this way: give me ten RPGs That do well in the same segment filled with the Industry giants products. HAH CANT DO IT CAN YOU? STUPID FAGGOTS! Oh shit, you can? Well. Shit.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:13 No.910901
    >>910895
    I made rules for a Jerkcity RPG. I think 4chan could just use the same system.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:14 No.910905
    >>910898
    To his credit, it appears he's shut up as promised.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:15 No.910908
    >>910884

    BESM is *generic* system, and it's used to run other kinds of games, like cyberpunk, occult, Pokemon(yes, is it's own genre now), and other stuff. That's why I didn't add GURPS, either.

    L5R and WotG were made specifically for their genre, which, yes, has a lot in common with sword & sorcery.

    You're the one who's wiggling here.
    >> sage sage 12/17/07(Mon)22:15 No.910909
    BAAAW BAAW BAW BAAW BAAAW d20 BAAAW! BAAW BAWW BAAAAAAW WoD! BAWW BAAAAWWW BAW BAW BAAAW GURPS BAAAW. BAAW BAW BAW BBBAAAAWWWW BAAAAW F.A.T.A.L.? BAAAW SAGE! BBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW!!
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:17 No.910917
    >>910905
    I for one believe he's checking up on those titles, gathering his nerd rage.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:20 No.910922
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    >>910901
    Tell me more of ancient lands.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:20 No.910928
    >>910917
    In which case he loses for entirely different reasons.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:20 No.910929
    >>910917

    His nerd rage is gonna be as flacid as his dick. A lot of those games have supplements out, like Glorantha and Warhammer FRP.

    Even Earthdawn is getting some new stuff.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:23 No.910937
    >>910922
    Watch the threads.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:25 No.910946
    >>910929
    >A lot of those games have supplements out

    I believe the deal was that all ten should have multiple supplements out and more in the works, which means Artesia is a no-no, at least. Doesn't really matter, because between the fiteen-or-so games listed, there are almost certainly ten valid candidates.

    I offer Hackmaster. Yeah, it's a bit of a cheat, but it's not d20.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:29 No.910957
    >>910922
    Can I ask where did you get that image?
    I certainly saw it before but can't remember where...
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:35 No.910970
         File :1197948907.gif-(25 KB, 588x288, BonerGoAway.gif)
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    >>910957
    Spigot the Bear: Behind the Scenes.

    Part of the Jerkcity comic, whose nominal RPG is gaying up the board at this very second.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:36 No.910973
    >>910946

    Hackmaster pleases the gaming gawds, as it doesn't take itself seriously- even when it "takes itself seriously". It's like finding a refined version of 1st Edition D&D. Unlike WoTC, who DID take D&D seriously. And Hasbro. Which just took it in the ass.
    >> MonkeyToho 12/17/07(Mon)22:37 No.910975
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    >>910843
    >>910836

    I don't see 7th Sea on either of these lists.

    What the hell is wrong with you people?
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:38 No.910977
    >>910970
    It's still a million times better than Magic the Gathering.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:42 No.910986
    >>910975

    Anonymous got a strange case of mercy and didn't want to humiliate the fa/tg/uy anymore?
    >> ThReAD NeCR0M4NC3R !74qaakDp.E 12/17/07(Mon)22:44 No.910993
    >>910973
    you mean a refined version of 2nd ed right? Cause that's exactly what the 4th edition of Hackmaster is.

    Although looks like Kenzer will have to come up with a different system for 5th. Maybe they'll make it d20 and put it Kingdoms of Kalamar.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:45 No.910994
    >>910836
    Ars Magica is the only valid candidate in this post. It's a good call though, an excellent game and very popular in some circles.

    >>910843
    Earthdawn is a good call, and I had forgotten about the 2005 edition of Pendragon. Artesia doesn't have enough supplements to be called healthy, and the Savage Worlds thing IS a supplement. Also, oriental kung fu fantasy is a different genre.

    >>910946
    And no, fucking Hackmaster very very obviously does NOT count. And Glorantha IS fucking Runequest.

    So that's... Three real games, and a bunch of bull that should count on a technicality? Well, three plus three is still double what I remembered, but can you fags seriously call this a healthy hobby? Business just booming and all? Hobby stores not closing their doors or refilling their shelves with manga instead of games?

    To the fag who said the demand was unfair: I could off the top of my head come up with fifteen straight sword & sorcery games that were popular at the same time AD&D was, starting with Harn, MERP, Rolemaster, Stormbringer and all of the above games except Earthdawn and RoS. That's because sword & sorcery is the most common genre there is.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:47 No.911003
    >>910975

    7th Sea isn't sword and sorcery, it's a fucking pirate game.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:51 No.911016
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    >>910994

    Whine some more, fa/tg/uy. I *really* find that attractive in a man.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:51 No.911017
    >>910994
    What was wrong with HARP?
    >> MonkeyToho 12/17/07(Mon)22:55 No.911025
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    >>911003

    It has swords, and it has magic. So what if its got pirates? Shit still counts.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:56 No.911026
         File :1197950199.jpg-(52 KB, 400x724, brb going to the moon.jpg)
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    >>911003
    Ok, you just stated we can ignore everything you write, on the account of you just writing random words in the comment field.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:58 No.911030
    >>911025

    The same applies for L5R. It's got swords, it's got magic. So what if it has samurai?
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)22:59 No.911035
    IIT, anon names various rpgs, and then anon shoots them down using his freshman semantics abilities.


    I thought we were talking about experiences with terrible systems?
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:01 No.911038
    >>911030
    Exactly, it's swords and sorcery you fucking putz.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:03 No.911047
    >>911038

    By that rationale, the Buffy RPG is sword & sorcery. Definitely has plenty of both in the game line.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:04 No.911053
         File :1197950687.jpg-(54 KB, 300x355, forest of faggotrees.jpg)
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    >>910908
    Oh noes! A game system that can be used to play several types of games - DOES NOT COUNT?????
    Must not be a good game then. Srsly, what kind of faggot thinks like that?
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:06 No.911060
    >>911047

    Don't forget Vampire, vampires can wield sword too and they certainly have sorcery.

    Also I made a swordsman character in Champion, that means Chapion is not a superhero game but instead a sword & sorcery game (because it improves my position in this debate and surely makes people respect me more, you see)
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:07 No.911064
    >>911047
    Swords and sorcery is generally set in a medieval era.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:08 No.911073
    >>911060

    Since most, if not all RPGs are an extension of heroic fiction and myth, that means they're "sword & sorcery" at some point.

    Hell, even Cthulhutech has katanas in the equipment list, along with sorcery.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:10 No.911083
         File :1197951023.png-(48 KB, 1280x1024, 1163767918916.png)
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    >>911060
    Well I played in a long lasting HERO fantasy campaign that was your archetypal sword & sorcery. Hero/Champions doesn't count cuz although they did release the newest rulebook relatively recently they do not make splatbooks for it, because the system is complete and doesn't need them. But that also makes it outside the constrictions of the faggot who wrote >>910754
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:10 No.911084
    >>911064

    Conan and Kull were medieval? REALLY?!?!?!?!?
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:12 No.911089
    >>911017
    Nothing, anon is just being an asshole.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:16 No.911097
         File :1197951367.jpg-(48 KB, 302x425, 50-cent-50-cent-gun-1076368.jpg)
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    I want to make a D20 RPG about being a group of black guys! :D
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:18 No.911107
         File :1197951510.jpg-(348 KB, 432x563, solid frontcover72dpi.jpg)
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    >>911097

    Too late, anon.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:18 No.911109
         File :1197951526.jpg-(5 KB, 218x180, 1175702639221.jpg)
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    >>911053
    >Srsly
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:19 No.911113
    >>911107

    Fuck. D:

    Oh well. At least all my work has been done for me! :D

    Where can I pick up a copy of this funky book?
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:21 No.911117
    >>911109
    Welcome to 4chan newfag. Go fuck yourself.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:36 No.911168
    A lot of the D&D hate comes from "OH-HO, IT'S POPULAR SO IT SUCKS, MY INDIE ARTHAUS GAMES ARE BETTER."
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:45 No.911187
    >>911168

    I'm going to have to call bullshit on that. I don't really see "indie art house games" coming up as proposed alternatives to D&D in these sorts of threads. Not that people actually name alternatives often, but when they're pressed to do so, it's usually just some other "normal" rpg.

    As far as anecdotal evidence goes, I know that when I started hating D&D, all the way back in eighty-four, my game of choice was Runequest just because it was more realistic, fun and made more sense. I compared the two games and saw that one was much better than the other.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:53 No.911217
    >>910847
    Blue Rose is not d20. It was the flagship/prototype game for Green Ronin's True20.
    The two systems, though related, are NOT the same.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:54 No.911221
    >>911187
    While I didn't make the original comment, this is marginally true. It isn't brought up in these threads, but in real life conversations in game stores and stuff, I've heard people bragging about how their home brew system is superior to d20.
    >> Anonymous 12/17/07(Mon)23:54 No.911222
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    >>911187
    I made the full circle of Runequest, WHFRP, Rolemaster, various other systems and now back again to D&D. Funny eh?
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:01 No.911241
    >>911221
    Everyone thinks their home brew system is an unrecognized work of genius.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:05 No.911254
    Look, I just want a generic fantasy system that:

    1- Is skill-based and not level-based
    2- where wounds mean something (that rules out hit points
    3- Where the magic system isn't "I cast a spell and then forget it"-tardnes
    4- Where combat isn't just a boring "roll and wait"

    I've played a lot of rpg's over the years, but the only times I've ever fallen asleep during a game were during AD&D 2ed. That being said, I'm willing to give D&D 4.0 a try.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:07 No.911257
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    >>911241
    This is true. Why is the world still playing that shitty D&D.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:10 No.911263
    >>911257
    When they have all the half-finished homebrews everyone who's ever GMed a game has somewhere on their hard drive? I don't know, man. I just don't know.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:10 No.911267
    >>911221
    >I've heard people bragging about how their home brew system is superior to d20.

    They're probably right. I know I could make a better game system than D&D in one lunch break. That's my chief indicator of whether a game is good or bad: if I can improve it, it's bad, because I'm some random guy and I should not fucking be able to improve upon something made by a supposed professional. I can't improve my plumbing or my car or my web browser under my own power, but I can improve D&D, and that's a bad sign for D&D.

    Anyway, I don't think homebrew is what the guy meant with "arthaus" games. What I bet he meant was Forge games - the supposedly commercial but very, very artsy-fartsy kind of games that do weird stuff like distribute GM's tasks between players, stuff like that. Those, I don't think I've seen ever proposed as serious alternatives to D&D - people bringing them up is just the /tg/ version of "well if you don't love PS3 then you must be a fucking XBOX FANBOY FUCK YOU" phenomenon where if you're against something, you're assumed to be for something completely different and mostly unrelated.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:14 No.911278
    Palladium in RIFTs setting
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:16 No.911284
    >>911254
    >Look, I just want a generic fantasy system that:
    >1- Is skill-based and not level-based
    >2- where wounds mean something (that rules out hit points
    >3- Where the magic system isn't "I cast a spell and then forget it"-tardnes
    >4- Where combat isn't just a boring "roll and wait"

    Well fuck, that's exactly what I want too.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:17 No.911286
    >>911254
    Have you tried Hârn? Brutal combat. Lot of casualties are actually long after combat from wound fever. Magic's a bit too awesome.

    Although beware, they are making a d20 version of it. I have not heard good things about that one.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:18 No.911287
    >>911267
    You say you can improve D&D. So does EVERY game-store-dwelling neckbeard. The (rhetorical) question is, is it true?
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:20 No.911294
    >>911254
    I have come to the conclusion that skill based systems are balanced even more poorly than level based ones.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:20 No.911295
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    >>911267
    No, I think he meant exactly your kind of players who think they have improved a game when the result is a piece of shit in the opinion of everybody outside your inbred group of neckbeards.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:21 No.911297
    >>911287

    Rhetorical because the answer is almost certainly a resounding yes.

    Let's be serious here, that game fucking sucks. It's a bloated, dated piece of garbage that isn't any more good even for the sort of straightforward dungeon hacking it was originally designed for. The only thing it sells with is its name, brand recognition and the fact that it's the only RPG that got any decent marketing.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:21 No.911298
    >>911287

    Iron Heroes.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:22 No.911301
    >>911294

    Balance, schmalance. The important part is that skills make SENSE and levels DO NOT. There are skills in the real world. There are no levels in the real world. Case closed.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:24 No.911305
    >>911297
    No, rhetorical because I was hoping I might not have to put up with the inevitable frenzy of masturbation any neckbeard would respond with, absolutely invariably. Seems it didn't help.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:27 No.911316
    >>911267
    >>911297
    >OH-HO, IT'S POPULAR SO IT SUCKS, MY INDIE ARTHAUS/FORGE/HOMEBREW GAMES ARE BETTER.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:30 No.911324
    Anybody who honestly can't make a better game than D&D should be banned for being underage. It's so fucking simple.

    Hell, if this was about FATAL people wouldn't even contest this, and D&D with its 2000+ pages of retarded, unhelpful rules that can't even get simple things like STRENGTH SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU MORE ACCURATE and ARMOR SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU MORE DIFFICULT TO HIT straight is almost as bad.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:32 No.911328
    >>911324

    Hell, this is the answer that trumps any light praise anyone attemots to give to D&D: STRENGTH SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU MORE ACCURATE, ARMOR SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU MORE DIFFICULT TO HIT. After almost forty fucking years they STILL can't get something that simple right when practically every other RPG does. What the fuck is wrong with them?

    It's impossible to like D&D. Why? Because STRENGTH SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU MORE ACCURATE and ARMOR SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU MORE DIFFICULT TO HIT.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:35 No.911334
    >>911328
    Oh jesus. Here comes the shitstorm. Rather than add to the impending frenzy of harsh "corrective measures", I'm just going to get out of the way.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:37 No.911339
    >>911324
    >>911328
    Either a troll or doesn't know what AC is.

    Ah, of course, this is /tg/. It's both.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:37 No.911341
    >>911328
    Disregarding the problems in those statements themselves, there are the Weapon Finesse feat and the "Armor as Damage Reduction" optional rule.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:42 No.911351
    Strength doesn't help you hit things. That's why baseball batters don't work on upper body strength.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:42 No.911352
    - STRENGTH SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU MORE ACCURATE
    - ARMOR SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU MORE DIFFICULT TO HIT
    - MEMORIZING SPELLS IS JUST A STUPID WASTE OF TIME
    - WHY DO I HAVE TO BECOME A BETTER COMBATANT BEFORE I CAN BECOME A BETTER MAGICIAN, OR FARMER FOR THAT MATTER?
    - A HOUSECAT SHOULD NOT BE A THREE TIMES BETTER COMBATANT THAN AN ADULT COMMONER
    - WHAT THE HELL DO YOU NEED SAVING THROWS FOR WHEN YOU ALREADY HAVE ABILITY CHECKS?
    - WHY ROLL AN ABILITY SCORE AT ALL IF YOU'RE ONLY GOING TO USE THE MODIFIER?
    - WHY DO I HAVE TO BUY A SPECIAL ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO TRIP, DISARM OR HIT EXTRA HARD?
    - WHY CAN'T I BECOME STRONGER BY LIFTING WEIGHTS AND WORKING OUT?
    - TRY TO MAKE UP YOUR MINDS WHETHER HIT POINTS ARE HEALTH OR LUCK, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS
    - WHAT THE HELL DOES "WISDOM" EVEN MEAN?
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)00:46 No.911356
    >>911352

    Calm down, friend. It's D&D, it sucks and it doesn't make sense.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:46 No.911360
    >>911339
    >>911341

    I don't want optional rules or feats. I want hitting with all weapons to be based on accuracy and combat skill, not fucking muscle mass, and I want armor to r3educe damage like it does in real life AND FOR NO OTHER TYPE OF ARMOR RULE TO EXIST. That is the only acceptable way, and guess what, that's the way everybody else does it. D&D only gets away with it because it's "traditional", but IT'S RETARDED.

    I FUCKING HATE IT SO MUCH I WISH I HAD A SECOND LEVEL OF CAPSLOCK TO USE HERE.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:47 No.911364
    >>STRENGTH SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU MORE ACCURATE
    See >>911351
    >>ARMOR SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU MORE DIFFICULT TO HIT
    Not even gonna bother with this one.
    >>MEMORIZING SPELLS IS JUST A STUPID WASTE OF TIME
    Opinion.
    >>WHY DO I HAVE TO BECOME A BETTER COMBATANT BEFORE I CAN BECOME A BETTER MAGICIAN, OR FARMER FOR THAT MATTER?
    Um, wut?
    >>WHAT THE HELL DO YOU NEED SAVING THROWS FOR WHEN YOU ALREADY HAVE ABILITY CHECKS?
    Because they are different between different classes?
    >>WHY ROLL AN ABILITY SCORE AT ALL IF YOU'RE ONLY GOING TO USE THE MODIFIER?
    Legitimate. Oh no. D&D is ruined forever.
    >>WHY DO I HAVE TO BUY A SPECIAL ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO TRIP, DISARM OR HIT EXTRA HARD?
    You don't have to.
    >>WHY CAN'T I BECOME STRONGER BY LIFTING WEIGHTS AND WORKING OUT?
    You can improve stats.
    >>TRY TO MAKE UP YOUR MINDS WHETHER HIT POINTS ARE HEALTH OR LUCK, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS
    Read the PHB.
    >>WHAT THE HELL DOES "WISDOM" EVEN MEAN?
    Read the PHB -and- the dictionary.
    >>A HOUSECAT SHOULD NOT BE A THREE TIMES BETTER COMBATANT THAN AN ADULT COMMONER
    Read the Monster Manual.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:48 No.911369
    Uhm, actually D&D's interpretation of armour is just as valid as armour-as-DR. NWoD also handles armour like D&D, though to be fair their system is better set up for it.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:49 No.911374
    >>911360
    If you're obsessed with "your" rules being the official rules of the game and for no variations on them to exist, I can see why you'd be spanking it so hard over your homebrew.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:52 No.911380
    Wow. The reason behind D&D hate reveals itself: Nerd rage that makes random snippets of minutae something so agonizing that they can't even be discussed in lower case. Walking around with that much anger bottled up must make just about EVERYTHING a chore to enjoy.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:53 No.911384
    >>911369
    >Uhm, actually D&D's interpretation of armour is just as valid as armour-as-DR.

    No, no it really really honest-to-lawdy-lawd isn't. Why? Because it turns the combat into a big fat pile of "make it up yourself", where you can't even identify how many attacks you actually made and connected with, let alone what their actual, physical effects were. A good system tells in specific, clear terms what happened, because the fucking GM wants and needs that information. A bad system forces him to just make the descriptions up because it doesn't help. And no, this does not take a lot of space or time. It has been done many, many times before, in games without the 2000+ pages of rules D&D has.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:54 No.911387
    >>911360

    Represents hit bouncing off armor, speeds up game. Optional rules exist. Next!
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)00:55 No.911391
    >>911364

    >>Um, wut?
    He's talking about multiclassing and how unrealistic it is.

    >You can improve stats.
    But only when you reach certain levels. And if this represents the time needed to train, can weightlifting grant you all the exp needed for those levels? And if not, then how the hell is he not getting stronger by exercising?

    Also, I could reply to each and every point, excluding one or two, but I'm not in the mood for debate.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:56 No.911397
    >>911380

    Those are NOT minutiae. Each and every one of them is a flaw that by itself would already destroy any game and undo everything good in it. D&D luckily doesn't have anything good to destroy, it's made up ENTIRELY of design flaws.

    I'm completely serious when I say it's only one step above FATAL, and that's only because it doesn't have detailed urination rules and a character called "Jewy Jewbacca".
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:57 No.911403
    >>911384
    If you can't tell how many attacks you made, you have a serious problem /tg/ cannot help you with. As for how many connect, for rules purposes that's an intangible. The DM is free to describe the exact reasons for the misses as he sees fit, attributing them variously to the target's available defense(s) or whatever else he deems appropriate. A parry, a ricochet off the armor/shield, a well-timed duck, whatever. For rules purposes the distinction doesn't matter.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)00:57 No.911404
    >>911387

    Represents nothing. Retarded abstract useless shit. Just like Forge games, except somehow ends up taking a million pages.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:00 No.911414
    >>911403
    >If you can't tell how many attacks you made, you have a serious problem /tg/ cannot help you with.

    It cannot be told, because one D&D "attack" is not one actual attack in the reality of the game world, it's some random amount of attacks, only one of which "counts" for some insane reason. There is no damn reason for this level of abstraction, this retarded shit that forces the DM to make up everything by himself with no help from the rules - doubly so because the only possible fucking USE for rules is to help the DM come up with descriptions. Why have fucking rules at all if they can't be used to determine exactly what happened?

    It's so stupid I feel my IQ whittling down just talking about it.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:00 No.911415
    >A HOUSECAT SHOULD NOT BE A THREE TIMES BETTER COMBATANT THAN AN ADULT COMMONER
    >Read the Monster Manual.
    ...THAT'S WHERE THE STATS FOR THE FUCKING CAT ARE, YOU MORON.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:01 No.911418
    >>911397
    >>Each and every one of them is a flaw that by itself would already destroy any game and undo everything good in it.
    HNNNNNNG OH GOD BEING STRONGER AND THUS BETTER ABLE TO CONTROL WEIGHTY OBJECTS AS YOU SWING THEM AROUND HAS RUINED MY ENTIRE GAMING EXPERIENCE.
    If flaws like that ruin the game, then basically, you don't play any tabletop games at all. You are one incredibly joyless individual.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:01 No.911419
    This is a D&D hate thread. Hate D&D.

    I hate D&D for a plethora of reasons. Someone I once knew told me, quite correctly I might add, that he tried to determine what kind of changes could be made to make the game actually good, and realized he was better off making his own system based on all the changes.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:03 No.911427
    >>911418

    Then how does it make your dagger swing better?
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:04 No.911430
    I hate d&d because it's generic and has many different flavors. This means it's impossible to get my group to actually try something different like AFMBE, GURPS, ShadowRun, or Deadlands.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:05 No.911434
    >>911415
    All right, since you won't/can't actually read it, I'll do it for you. And I'll even cut to the most relevant part. Say thank you.
    >>2 claws +4 melee (1d2-4) and bite -1 melee (1d3-4)
    Three attacks that do no damage. That's much better than what a commoner can do, a'yup.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:05 No.911435
    >>911391
    >He's talking about multiclassing and how unrealistic it is.

    Actually, I'm talking about how even as a wizard who never ever does physical work, or an NPC aristocrat, you still ahve to go up levels to get better at your stuff, mandatorily gaining BAB and HP. By the book, if you are the best florist in the world, you are also a kickass asskicker whether it fits the picture or not.

    A better system would turn the BAB-equivalent into just another skill that you can put points in (balancing it by making it more expensive perhaps)). Surprise, surprise, most non-D&D games do exactly that.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:06 No.911439
    Actually, I wouldn't even have a problem with the unrealistic rules if it weren't for the fact whole D&D is just a messy clusterfuck of lolwut.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:06 No.911441
    >>911427
    ITS CALLED PENETRATION YOU FUCKING WHORE, IT DOES YOU NO GOOD TO FUCKING TICKLE THE ORC WITH A GODDAMN DAGGER, YOU NEED TO DESTROY THE ORCS FLESH WITH IT, THAT IS WHY YOU NEED STR!
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:07 No.911442
    >>911427
    What's easier to avoid: A slow attack, or a fast one?
    Now you're going to dance around doing your best to avoid directly answering the question, but go ahead and get it out of your system before I continue. It might help placate the ambient nerd rage.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:07 No.911444
    >>911434

    They do 1 point of damage. A commoner has 2,5 HP on average. The cat also has higher stats.

    A housecat in D&D will _slaughter_ a normal adult.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:08 No.911446
    >>911435

    Right. That's pretty much it. And there's just one reason more D&D really isn't too good a game.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:08 No.911447
    >>911418
    >If flaws like that ruin the game, then basically, you don't play any tabletop games at all.

    No, I just play GOOD games, for example GAMES THAT ARE NOT D&D.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:09 No.911450
    >>911434
    Actually, you always do a minimum of 1 damage. However, the whole "CATS KILL COMMONERS!" thing would only work on one who had negative con. Otherwise, a good kick from the commoner will knock out the cat. And remember, it's not all that insane. We're assuming a rabid cat that isn't just scratching at your leg so you'll feed it, we're talking on that's trying to KILL YOU.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:10 No.911454
    >>911441

    THEN THE ORC OBVIOUSLY SHOULD HAVE DR. HOWEVER, IT DOESN'T.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:10 No.911457
    >>911435
    Because heaven forbid the system at least attempt to promote balance between the players, as opposed to solely rewarding those who heap pounds and pounds of points on combat abilities.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:11 No.911461
    D&D is fine for what it is, an exercise in game math with no relation to anything even vaguely like reality. It's mathsturbation, to steal a Loreism.

    Meanwhile me and the rest of my narritivist Forge-gaming clique weave dreams together and make ourselves sticky.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:12 No.911466
    >>911454
    Uh oh. Nerd rage reaching critical mass. The orc DOES, on the other hand, have thick animal hides and tanned leather, like any self-respecting barbarian horde member. If he doesn't, well, he oughtta.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:12 No.911467
    >>911450

    Look. Listen.

    A cat, in real life, is an animal the size of a normal boot. It can NOT, under ANY circumstances, EVER, kill an adult. Its claws will not penetrate even normal clothes. It can achieve nothing but superficial scratches. It's just not possible.

    Maybe if the adult was naked and tied down and the cat would have hours and hours, but not an unrestrained, resisting grown-up. It's just not possible.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:13 No.911468
    >>911461

    Funny. I know a guy who has played D&D for more than ten years. He said exactly the same. Well, at least the part about D&D. He also pointed out he likes it for that reason, and no other reasons.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:13 No.911470
    >>911447
    So, how about you give us a game that's better. And if it's from Arthaus, you prove my point that you haven't played any better games.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:14 No.911472
    >>911466

    Uh oh, I was imitating the cruise control of the post I replied to.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:14 No.911474
    >>911435
    That is for balance reasons, a level 10 PC is supposed to be able to survive against a cr 10 creature, the best way to ensure this is if you force PCs to gain hps and BAB when they level. That way some dumbass doesn't blow all his exp on pig farming skill ups and then bitch about how much the guy who focused on blowing shit up is blowing him out of the water, or how he goes down like a cheerleader on prom night to anything that would be a challenge to a more well rounded character.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:14 No.911476
    Anyone who considers strict realism and flawless consistency to be absolute requisites for all games has banned himself from playing any game of any genere in any medium. Every game ever made has elements of LOL WUT. If you feel your personal favorites don't, you're not just lying to /tg/, you're lying to yourself.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:15 No.911477
    >>911470

    WFRP, motherfucker.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:15 No.911481
    >>911470
    Games that do high-fantasy better, or that simply have better rules?
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:16 No.911483
    >>911476

    It's not that everything should be flawless and realistic, it's just that most of it should make sense.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:16 No.911484
    >>911477
    Fail game is fail. Try again tripfag.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:16 No.911486
    >>911457

    Yeah, because D&D does such a great job with balance as it is. Half the classes are rubbish, and almost all the multi-class combinations even moreso.

    Balance does not require a class system, nor is it helped by one.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:17 No.911491
    >>911481
    Does high fantasy well and has better rules.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:17 No.911492
    >>911484

    And why is it fail? Is it more fail than D&D, perhaps?
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:17 No.911493
    >>911476
    >>Every game ever made has elements of LOL WUT.

    True, I suppose. But some games have a tolerable amount of them, and others seem to be made entirely out of them.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:18 No.911494
    >>911447
    Name one of your "good" games, and I will find at least one flaw on the same scale as one of those complaints (and since "(x) is stupid" is apparently a valid one, that won't be hard). Or rather, I would, if I cared so much about disabusing a total stranger of his fantasy of overthrowing the industry with his glorious masterwork of unacknowledged gaming genius.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:18 No.911495
    >>911483
    Except D&D does make sense.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:19 No.911500
         File :1197958766.jpg-(353 KB, 570x1192, SmokingGun.jpg)
    353 KB
    >>911468
    And that's cool. From a having-a-good-time perspective, playing budget meeting with a character sheet and "immersive storytelling" wankery are both exactly as fun as you think they are.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:19 No.911501
    >>911495

    In the most basic level, yeah. But when things get even a little more complicated, the abstractness rises very, very fast.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:20 No.911504
    >>911467
    Have you ever seen those starving people in Africa? Those are commoners, a stiff wind could take one out.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:20 No.911505
    >>911495
    >Except D&D does make sense.

    NO.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:21 No.911509
    >>911500

    Indeed. Don't get me wrong, if someone likes D&D for that reason, then let them like it. Just as I like the roleplaying side much, much more than rollplaying.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:22 No.911513
    >>911492
    Yes, in fact, it fails more than D&D. You roll the die against your skill and that's it. Personal level of defense (such as being quick and good at dodging) get completely and utterly ignore because Iaregudwifaxe unless you set a special action to avoid it. Personal skill of both parties should affect the difficulty, not just the personal skill of the person on the attack.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:23 No.911514
    >>911486

    "balance". This mythical creature so obsessed over by computer game/math thinkers. it's Irrelevant to a fun game most of the time. some of the best games i've played (wufrup, L5R and some memorable games of abberant) had little to no actual party "balance".

    It wasn't necessary to balance fact that the warrior could slice anyone clean in half with the courtiers ability to kill anyone she felt like by forcing them into suicide, or starting a clan war because of her pms. The games worked, they were great. No balance required.

    Sometimes i think gamers need to grow up a bit and relax some.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:24 No.911517
    >>911505
    YES! It does save a few waitwuts here and there, which every game I've ever looked at has.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:24 No.911519
    >>911513

    Those special action represent you are good at dodging and parrying. And for others there's parrying stance.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:24 No.911520
    Still waiting on what's harder to avoid: A fast strike or a slow one. To save time, I'll line up another question. What's likelier to penetrate semi-flexible material? An unsteady, weak force, or a concentrated, strong force? Each question has two answers. If you cannot pick just one, then congrats, you are the kid for whom "following directions" preschool lessons were created.

    >>911493
    You had darn better not be the same anon who said even a single one of the above listed flaws would ruin a game.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:25 No.911523
    >>911494
    >Name one of your "good" games, and I will find at least one flaw on the same scale

    Okay, let's try an easy one: Cyberpunk 2020. I think I can even help you with it: retarded VR rules, no rules for raising attributes. That's two.

    However, by finding one or two you have just proven it bad. To prove it as bad as D&D, you'd have to find about 30.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:26 No.911526
    GURPS you motherfuckers
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:26 No.911529
    >>911517

    No, it's a game MADE out of waitwuts. It doesn't have a single rule that is good for its job, except maybe something obscure like weather or travel time.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:26 No.911530
    I think this thread has caused some children to spontaniously grow neckbeards over the amount of nerd rage radiation infecting the internet.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:27 No.911534
    >>911523
    Nope. You said even ONE fault on the scale of those listed ruined the game and utterly abolished all its good points. So, that's one ruined game out of the way without me lifting a finger. Next?
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:28 No.911538
    >>911513

    Bollocks it does. Every fucker with a half degree of sense makes an attack then READIES A FUCKING PARRY STANCE. or y'know, uses a shield... or an offhand KNIFE for chrissakes...

    Also your argument is flawed at the point where you said "being quick and good at dodging". If you are quick and good at dodging you have the dodge blow skill... go on... look it up. it's there. you make a dodge blow roll.. if you pass the guy missed. is that too fucking hard for you?

    /end neeerdraaage
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:28 No.911540
    >>911520
    A fast strike is harder to avoid, but if you're strong, you can handle the weight of a weapon easier and swinging 8lbs of steel and make faster attacks with it. The concentrated hit would do more damage against the material and/or what it was covering.

    And if this is still the "Why does strength increase hit" nonsense, there you go. You improve your ability to swing quickly and ability to break armor with strength
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:29 No.911541
    >>911491
    Runequest.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:29 No.911542
    I think the badness of D&D is so self-evident that it can be used as its definition. If your RPG has parts that are similar to D&D, those are bad parts; your game is worse the more it resembles D&D.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:30 No.911545
    >>911540

    Let's not get to the unrealistic armor, shall we?
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:31 No.911547
    >>911540
    *clap clap clap clap clap*
    Seems someone gets it! Yes, a stronger person has more control over the weight, momentum, and impact force of his weapon. He can drive it more effectively through armor. He can swing it faster. He can control his followthrough to make crisper followup attacks. That's why baseball players beef up, people.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:32 No.911551
    >>911545
    >LOL I'M TAKING THIS ARGUMENT IN A CIRCLE!
    Look, I'm not getting into this with you. Yes, it's an arbitrary system for armor, but it's one with a reasonable explanation and it reduces the amount of book keeping that needs to be done and removes the occasional "Oh shi- forgot my DR!" moments.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:33 No.911553
         File :1197959597.png-(77 KB, 702x122, header2.png)
    77 KB
    To actually answer the OP, even though he's trolling...
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:33 No.911554
    >>911541

    RQ floored me when I first saw it, all the way back when. "Hit locations? Armor that reduces damage? Knockback and stun rules that apply to every hit, not just some special attacks, yet take no extra time to use? Wow..." And that was before I learned of Glorantha. There was no going back for me after that.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:36 No.911560
    >>911551
    >it reduces the amount of book keeping that needs to be done

    No it does not. There is no benefit to it over armor that reduces damaeg: you make the exact same number of rolls and calculations, but get less information for your trouble. It's as close to an objectively inferior method as you can get.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:39 No.911576
    >>911560
    Information that functions to.........? Not that it matters. /tg/ itself is trying to abort this downs syndrome baby of a thread.

    Anyway, personally, I enjoy D&D because it's a game with VAST customizability, great storylines and characters (that is, with my beloved usual group), easy rules, tons of options, I can play it with my friends, and you can even roleplay in it without being looked askance at. And foolishness on any who find fault with that.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:40 No.911579
    >>911560
    It's one less stat I need to keep track off. That seems to be clearly less bookkeeping.
    >> Masterwork Bastard !wl59mComes 12/18/07(Tue)01:41 No.911585
    >>911576

    I can symphatize with that. If you find it fun, go ahead and play it.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:43 No.911593
    And the "armor as damage reduction" optional rule goes ignored yet further. It's "optional" because the hardcore fans would throw a FIT if AC were taken out. So use it or stop complaining about that point.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:43 No.911594
    >>910687
    >>910807
    i do
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:46 No.911604
         File :1197960402.jpg-(104 KB, 375x630, ComicBookGuy.jpg)
    104 KB
    You mean people /still/ play DnD?
    Worst - RPG - ever!
    (subtle commentary on this thread)
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:50 No.911616
    >>911604
    Sorry, worst RPG ever is WoD. Game itself doesn't work by design.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)01:51 No.911621
    >>911585
    Snarky side wants to say "I wasn't asking for your permission," but actually, that attitude you've expressed does contrast some people, even in this very thread, who DO seem to think their righteous benediction is required for someone's enjoyment of a game to be justified. So snark just seems misplaced here.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)03:24 No.911821
    >>909612
    I don't know if it's the best game system ever, but my friends and I had a blast playing Shadowrun 3rd Ed.

    Haven't played it in about 5 years or so, but it was pretty good.

    And D&D(d20) isn't that bad. Just like with any RPG, if you have a good group and a good DM it can be fun. All you have to do is keep the power gaming/meta-gaming retards in check and let the DM veto truly stupid character builds or other game-breaking garbage and you're good to go.

    Honestly all this whining is stupid. If you don't like something, don't play it. Just because you've only played with bad groups that have ruined your game doesn't mean that SHIT SUX.
    >> Anonymous 12/18/07(Tue)03:59 No.911897
    tl;dr
    FATAL and WOD suck ass. D&D players cry too much about the game they play.


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