War, war never changes.http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/qstarchive.html?tags=Fallout%2C+Civ%2C+Courier%2C+New+Vegas%2C+Enclave%2C+AmericaLast Thread>>1958571You are the Courier. You lead the Phoenix Commonwealth of America. For five years you built up your nation, your great city from nothing, taking your people to BigMT and turning it into your own Enclave. Perhaps more like them in spirit than you admit, for being surrounded by both the NCR and the Legion, there have not been many newcomers of their own accord. Nontheleast, because it seems perhaps the NCR is quietly halting anyone who ever did by force, and without a doubt the Legion must surely be as well.Despite these setbacks you are ever considering ways to extend the Pheonix's wings even beyond the boundaries of borders, developing teleportation and flying through the sky in the quiet of night, you plant seeds all the way in Utah, Montana, and more fertile ground awaits out there.
>>1982090The THINK TANK, apply their minds to the UFO. Dr. 8 and Dr. Dala returning to work as well.They analyze the damaged dampener shield drive, and with the help of Dr. 8 who has a degree in "quantum harmonics", through a series of theories and hypothesis not only reverse engineer the drive, but apply some of their own BigMT science to it!The "Inertial Dampener Field" has a curious side effect in that it not only provides an intense (kinetic) Damage Resistance, but also slightly bends light around itself. Using the technologies in the X-13 research facility and the X-8 lightwave dynamics facility, they apply some of the very same technology used in the Stealth Suit Mk2, making it much more transparent and as a better result, more difficult to track by conventional radar.An interesting, and wholly unintended side effect is, er, well:>Dr 0"Whoops, looks like we forgot to leave out the personality matrix program function Dr. Mobius put in the original. My bad!">UFO"Inertial Dampener Activated. Now no one can watch us when we're alone together."
>>1986498Thats ok, as long as it smartly automates the systems itself.On the topic, do the think tank think the UFO has a reasonable chance to get to Hawaii, knowing what they do about the islands? Also, do they have any input on the reactor or the replicator tech (would the boon help make the energy price comparable with the metal replication, that is to say make it cheap enough to be the main source of resources)?
>>1986508The sisintigrator tech we have right now is pretty optimized. A boon on it now would not be the best use of it.
>>1986515Its expensive enough to be shit without the fuckhuge fusion plant. If this combo allows us to circumvent "normal" resources then thats ok and we can save the boon. If not, we need to make it better to be able to fill this role.Keep in mind that when we can reliably and constantly turn rocks into robots we can not only splurge on fancy nanoscale transistor tech but alien metal, complex weapons and so on. Basically get all the fancy tech for the price of "normal" tech. Essentially a game changer, limiting us only by the quality of the blueprint, not the resources available.
>>1986508>Also, do they have any input on the reactor or the replicator tech (would the boon help make the energy price comparable with the metal replication, that is to say make it cheap enough to be the main source of resources)?They already improved the reactor but I think we'd need to have a dedicated action to refine the replicators as a concept.
But ok, going to sleep. Dont waste the boon on soething we could accomplish normally and keep pushing for the replicator to be as good as advertised.GN
>>1986546I only want to use it to make sure we get shit done, e,g if we roll low on Hawaii I'd want to use it to ensure success.Night lad.
>>1986536We can circumvent resource with the model we have. It can use dirt and rocks, just add power. We wont be able to ever get rid of the power need, because physics.
>>1986562Essentially this. We have to expend energy disintegrating matter into basic particles to then form into whatever we're making.The only other method is direct energy-to-matter creation but that is even more expensive in terms of power but has the benefit of being quicker.
>Robotic Research >General robotics enhancements. Let Dr. 0 take a look at all of our designs and generally just try and make them better. >Dr 0"Securitrons. You just HAD to pick securitrons as the basis for your army didn't you. Well, at least this new factory is an upgrade to my deconstruction plant. Lemme take a whack at it.""I used to hate these things. I still do, but actually I'm kinda bored with them now. The MKV was the best we could do with the technology of our Era. Lemme take a crack at it."Dr. 0 has broken through your previous limitations, and invented the Securitron MKVI! This one CAN use a modified version of the Berserketron program, without destroying itself, and is much lighter able to afford more armor or heavier weapons! Just spend an action to retrofit your existing models."Alright, that should about do it. I've used our replicators and some of the alien metal to improve the wiring and circuitry, making them 100% more efficient. Different models will be easier to make now, without significantly increasing cost.I could take a crack at some of the other robots as well, though some direction would be nice. The Zax CEO's Loader Bots seem interesting to me."
>>1986636What sort of personality is this AI of Mobius?
>>1986636I was hoping he could look at the others, But i guess only 1 design per turn.
>>1986695Eh, still pretty good seeing as we'd started to run out of shit for our robotics research to do.
>>1986695Its easier for your scientists to work when they have a general direction or something to point them to. The more specific the better.
>>1986652Clingy with a bad sense of humor.It is The stealth suit mrk 2 intelligence
>>1986717I don't even remember what the fuck designs we have bothte Tank bot and Secrution. Anon's wasted so much research on other stuff.
>>1986725so... perfect?also please dont waste a boon on shit we can get just by increasing our energy reserves.things to use a boon on>chinese hot fusion>transcontinental railgun based mega artillery>the platinum chip>Secret backdoor codes to the Hawaii baseetc.
>Brain"Research is often driven by need rather than as a vaccuum, or else you'll get things like that dog brain based minigun. Its not that, with the brilliance of our Geniuses and the vast computers and scientists we posses, we are running out of ideas or hitting a ceiling.Its easier to move ahead when you know what direction that is."
>>1986729An anon did work on compiling various blueprints though I forgot which google doc it was in.I'd archive binge through SupTG and Ctrl+f any "blueprint" word. Archived.moe/tg would be better, but its so slow and has ads to hell and back.
>>1986732Platinum chip or back door codes would be the best use.>>1986717Qm, does 0 have no idea how to progress with the platinum chip, even now? House had to have poached a pretty skilled contemporary for it. So he would know who's work would likely have gonw into making it.
>>1986732>transcontinental railgun based mega artillery>Secret backdoor codes to the Hawaii baseuh..what? Only the Chinese Hot fusion and the Platinum chip is worth it.
>>1986765Hawaii is certainly worth it but I must agree, "mega artillery" ain't useful unless we have the forces to hold them in place.
>>1986771Hawaii is something we were planning to slip into anyway. The Plat chip requires us to get House or somehow the factory it was made at, and the Hot fusion requires us to GO to china if i remember correctly.
>>1986781His point with the codes for Hawaii was to make it easy as hell to secure. As codes just allowing us to land on the island, let alone get inside the pre-war base, would certainly simplify things.
>>1986781Going to China might be something we'll have to do or have an interest to do at some point. I think the Plat Chip is the best option. Or perhaps we can build our city, or save it for a Nat 1, or start colonization, or use it to find a weakness in Elijah. Or maybe we can use this boon to create a fucking spy satelite. Or MAYBE we can use it to establish control over the Enclave again. There are many things we can do with that Boon.
>>1986786But we've been over this last time, The entire island and chain isn't gonna be locked down, And it'll be like any other base raid. Now the Chip, Thats worth it. THink of how small everyhting would suddenly become. Might even make teh XAT better.
>>1986835And last time we didn't reach any sort of agreement on what you are saying.As to the chip being worth it? Certainly it would be useful. Do I think one boon will get us it? Not even close.
>>1986755the chip was made in Sunnyvale before the war.it is revolutionary even by pre war standards. utterly impossible to recreate even with replicators as they are now.Basically the only way is to get House.which means conquering New Vegas and hoping Cesaer didnt off him.Or getting Sunnyvale and praying the bombs didnt annihilate it. of course its deep in california.
>>1986781Hot fusion information might be present in Chinese files or known about by the Shi. But realistically its go to china or nothing.I would argue the Beryllium Agitator is a viable alternative
>>1986893Problem with that is we'd need a good supply of Beryllium or for every reactor to be insanely productive.
>>1986867I'd rather just take New Vegas. We need to start expanding, but I don't think anyone wants to go to war yet, besides me
>>1986906Going to war right now would be suicide.
>>1986964Yes, but eventually.
>>1986964And that's probably why we're gonna wait, but eventually we need to pick sides, and it seems the unofficial consensus was that we would save the NCR for last
>>1986966I agree to conquering Vegas sometime in the future but I'd want us to control Hawaii, Montana, Texas and a few other territories like the "unclaimed" area of Utah or Florida.>>1987009I feel that the NCR must fall first assuming we must choose a side beyond what we already have as they are the greatest threat to us but if I get outvoted I'll deal with it.
>>1987024Well it would be nice putting it to an actual vote, but the idea was that we would be the only ones that could deal with the NCR humanely
>>1987024If they may pose the greatest threat, but our relationship is cordial, so we can take the time to grow before picking a fight with them.
>>1987032And my argument has always been based on everything ignoring the "humanity" of our conquests. If nothing else, because the fact is war is war and we are dealing with war crimes supported by the people on all sides so it becomes far easier and clearer to just imagine raw numbers of troops, growth rates and so on.The NCR ain't moral. The NCR is very, very far from it. I know people feel we shouldn't allow them or their people to suffer but I see no reason to spare them from suffering when they would cause suffering to others as well as because I feel they'd be a better conquest short term than the MLA or Legion. The NCR is our biggest threat: they are advancing technologically; they can outproduce us; they have a strong culture; they have a similar society (which makes them a competitor). They've done massive things in these last few years even compared to our massive achievements and that is only what we have seen.If we had another half a decade or so to work and build? I'd be more gungho to leave them for last since our portals make expanding outside of the US easy but we don't. We have a year or two before the NCR probably gets to post-WW 2 tech for the average troop. Assuming they don't jump straight to pre-war grade stuff or even beyond.The MLA and the Legion seem like far less of a threat to me. So I advise using them as stepping stones to get stronger by conquering the NCR and then the Legion and then the MLA. Because the simple fact is that we can outdo them without issue assuming we have another half a decade to work with and they don't fuck us over in the peace deal and shit.>>1987082I know but should it ever be the case that the MLA-Legion start pushing into the NCR seriously and we can't stabilise it without openly helping the NCR? I want to be on the winning side and take our share at the peace deal. To paraphrase Mussolini: "Only a few thousand must die so that I may sit at the peace conference as one who fought".I don't want to go into war until we really need to as every turn we aren't in war is another turn our people can focus on civilian efforts: expansion of industry, cultural development and so on.
>>1987178If the NCR is the final boss, the biggest threat, you usually build up to it by taking out the easier people to gather resources and allies, not go for the hardest one right away
>>1987178Using the Legion and MLA as stepping stones means slaughtering them first, and using their assets for our purposes.And as far as it seems, the NCR is doing well. They seem like the Winning side as far as we know. If we wanted to join the winning side, we should do what mussolini did and side with Hitler, the guy who is more similiar than different.
>>1986867>Brain"I have to admit, it seems impossible even for me. But, the Think Tank are the masters of the impossible are they not?The ZAX predicted it would take many years of computerized labour to reverse engineer the chip. But perhaps they could be able to shorten it.Dr 0 might not be the likes of Mr. House, but five of the Think Tank put together. . .perhaps it might not take as long.Alternatively we get more Supercomputers on the problem."
>>1987197Assuming you are fighting alone? Agreed.If you can get the help of those people (MLA / Legion) you'd otherwise be trying to conquer? You should attempt to take advantage of their strength to make up for your own weakness. Especially if you know that the final boss is getting stronger over time and with every person you help them kill.>>1987255>Using the Legion and MLA as stepping stones means slaughtering them first, and using their assets for our purposes.I don't know how but you completely misread everything I wrote yet still knew who I was talking about. I was talking about ALLYING them not killing them. At least, not until after the NCR.>And as far as it seems, the NCR is doing well. They seem like the Winning side as far as we know. Wait until after the attack on Boomtown. Also you seemingly missed the part where I want to remain neutral until a clear winner (that isn't the NCR) is seen or we are strong enough to actually matter to the NCR / to oppose the Legion / MLA attack from the Divide and shit.>If we wanted to join the winning side, we should do what Mussolini did and side with Hitler, the guy who is more similar than different.Not really. Seeing as our goal is to essentially be the biggest and most powerful nation. Simple fact is that the NCR is a competitor in this regard and more importantly they are going the same shtick as us so they saturate the "market".
>>1987305Are you saying taking down both the MLA and Legion, maybe even the Brotherhood is gonna be easy? What's your plan then
>>1987324heres an idea.genuinely help the MLA take over the NCR. We can probably seize their airfield the boneyard and some of southern cali ourselves.we are a LOT nicer than the NCR will be expecting. no rapes. no crucifixion. free medicine, lots of food. Less than the usual number of horrible atrocities.then, when the NCR is pulverized team up with our buddy niner to kill everyone else.But we should take care of elijah first because hes a slippery fuck liable to murder us all.
>>1987305>I don't know how but you completely misread everything I wrote yet still knew who I was talking about. I was talking about ALLYING them not killing them. At least, not until after the NCR.I'm just saying, using people as a stepping stone generally means dealing with them first before moving on to bigger things. You might have used the wrong idiom.>Wait until after the attack on Boomtown. Also you seemingly missed the part where I want to remain neutral until a clear winner (that isn't the NCR) is seen or we are strong enough to actually matter to the NCR / to oppose the Legion / MLA attack from the Divide and shit.Why wait until a winner who isn't the NCR? why not side with the winning team while we can, instead of getting tied up in an even slugging match?>Not really. Seeing as our goal is to essentially be the biggest and most powerful nation. Simple fact is that the NCR is a competitor in this regard and more importantly they are going the same shtick as us so they saturate the "market".Everyone is a competitor in that regard, so it's not that great of an excuse. And I don't get what you mean about saturating the market.
>>1987362If we can make the legion and MLA abide by those rules of no rape or crucifixion too, then I'd support it
>>1987324>Are you saying taking down both the MLA and Legion, maybe even the Brotherhood is gonna be easy? Compared to the NCR? Yes. Although I'd say that the Brotherhood is probably the second strongest, then the MLA and then the Legion.>What's your plan thenThe Legion ain't an issue. This is an objective fact made clear by their vulnerability to various methods of weakening them thanks to their lack of technology.Given their reliance on blood to rapidly heal front-line troops, a biological weapon designed to contaminate blood and induce blindness would certainly weaken them long term depending on it's spread. As to actual direct combat measures: between our drone aircraft and the Tankitron heat beam, we can easily annihilate their armies thanks to their reliance on humans / biological units that are vulnerable to thermal weapons. If all else fails, Bastion units would prove highly effective in the case that their armour proves sufficient to block thermal attacks.As to the MLA: they are reliant on a salvaging from the battlefield various things to maintain their forces which given many of our robots can be made to self-detonate on death (MK 6 Securitron software which we can now safely use (>>1986636) does this as standard on death) and that we would not be vulnerable to exhaustion like the NCR (robots can just keep pushing) means that they'd lack salvage to construct, maintain or repair vehicles.Back such things up with an air-force (the reason they no longer use large vehicles is the NCR's limited and outdated air-force, imagine what we could achieve?), our ability to strike their subterranean centres and our general superior ability to manufacture (as they have stated) and we would be able to do what the BOS are doing but faster and push them back in a constant wave of robots.Accounting for dark god influence is hard but using the 100 slaves for 1 near supermutant strong (buff (important: they are still near the max capacity of them rather than being this strong while looking like a noodle)) human as a assessment we reach the realisation that given our main force is entirely robotic and could probably overpower such individuals (if we wanted them to), they fail to do more than delay defeat.>>1987362Essentially my plan. I want everything south of the NCR airbase up to the Legion border but seeing as the Legion probably wouldn't agree, I'd ask they let us keep what we capture. Then when the MLA-Legion alliance shatters we roll through the Legion and take everything we want there. Then we sit back, build up and then push out further once more.>But we should take care of elijah first because hes a slippery fuck liable to murder us all.Agreed. Nukes from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
>>1987367>I'm just saying, using people as a stepping stone generally means dealing with them first before moving on to bigger things. You might have used the wrong idiom.Fair enough, I couldn't think of the right idiom.>Why wait until a winner who isn't the NCR? Why not side with the winning team while we can, instead of getting tied up in an even slugging match?Because the NCR has less of a reason to reward us for helping them whereas the MLA are entirely willing and able without being so much stronger as to be able to lose our support.>Everyone is a competitor in that regard, so it's not that great of an excuse. Except if we were all car manufacturers: the MLA are hot rods, the BOS are vans and the Legion are microcars. Meanwhile the NCR and us? We occupy the same market because we are offering our citizens the same product.>And I don't get what you mean about saturating the market.The NCR is too similar to us so it's harder to use our position to attract people that our lifestyle appeals to.>>1987382Then you ain't going to end up supporting it.
>>1987389Nuclear weapons against Elijah would probably be ineffective due to the depth of the vaults in Sierra Madre. However an Intercontinental ballistic missile sized pulse Warhead may knock out enough of his electronic systems that invading would be easierWe can then capture him and extract his fucking brain
>>1987389If the Legion is no issue, then we should go after them instead of picking a fight with the goliath that is the bear. Then the MLA, then we recover, rebuild and finally turn on the NCR. That way we don't end up over our heads, like getting into a war with the NCR will do.Especially since with our weapons we can make a lot of gains compared to what we can make against the NCR. Long term, siding with the NCR is both less risk, and more reward.>>1987382That is an impossible requirement.
>>1987402>Because the NCR has less of a reason to reward us for helping them whereas the MLA are entirely willing and able without being so much stronger as to be able to lose our support.Saving their general's life, providing military aid, helping defeat their enemies? The NCR will not betray us while the war is going on, and the once the war is finished, would have little reason to distrust us.>Except if we were all car manufacturers: the MLA are hot rods, the BOS are vans and the Legion are microcars. Meanwhile the NCR and us? We occupy the same market because we are offering our citizens the same product.Except the NCR is not selling to a majority of people- Everyone not ethnically californian is scum who die. Very few of those outside of california.>The NCR is too similar to us so it's harder to use our position to attract people that our lifestyle appeals to.We won't be gaining people through immigration for the most part, but conquest. So it's different. And in the end, we take down the NCR anyways, so in the end, its no big deal.
>>1987431This, the NCR can be seen as a bully, but they haven't turned on an ally yet
>>1987405Agreed.>>1987407>If the Legion is no issue, then we should go after them instead of picking a fight with the goliath that is the bear. The Legion are allies of the MLA. War with either of them is war with the other which we can't win with anything approaching our current capacity. >Then the MLA, then we recover, rebuild and finally turn on the NCR. That way we don't end up over our heads, like getting into a war with the NCR will do.Yeah and during the years after fighting the MLA, the NCR completely outgrows us and proceeds to just outgrow our asses like fuck. Leaving us a minor nation at best.>Especially since with our weapons we can make a lot of gains compared to what we can make against the NCR. Long term, siding with the NCR is both less risk, and more reward.It really isn't.>>1987431>Saving their general's life, providing military aid, helping defeat their enemies? Ignoring the general, I'd point out that we are of far less value to the NCR than the MLA-Legion as I have already explained repeatedly.>The NCR will not betray us while the war is going on, and the once the war is finished, would have little reason to distrust us.Woop de doo. How in the hell is that going to get us anywhere near as much land and resources as the alternative and why would we ever do the route that results in the NCR getting even stronger.>Except the NCR is not selling to a majority of people- Everyone not ethnically californian is scum who die. Very few of those outside of california.Nope: the Frontier, the Shi and all their other holdings imply that they don't give two shits so long as you are civilised. E,g not a raider or tribal.>We won't be gaining people through immigration for the most part, but conquest. So it's different. And in the end, we take down the NCR anyways, so in the end, its no big deal.Except I feel that you are severely underestimating the NCR's growth and advancement. Another decade and we will be behind in many areas, I promise you.>>1987444And? They turned on their own people and destroyed their tribal reservations and such.
>>1987498>The Legion are allies of the MLA. War with either of them is war with the other which we can't win with anything approaching our current capacity.We may not be able to win alone, but if we're supporting the NCR, we can make plenty of gains.'>Yeah and during the years after fighting the MLA, the NCR completely outgrows us and proceeds to just outgrow our asses like fuck. Leaving us a minor nation at best.Our growth potential is so much greater than the NCR, especially since the NCR will be killing a lot of the people we would be integrating. NCR growth will plateau soon.>It really isn't.It really is.>Ignoring the general, I'd point out that we are of far less value to the NCR than the MLA-Legion as I have already explained repeatedly.We're still plenty valuable. Valuable enough to be safe.> How in the hell is that going to get us anywhere near as much land and resources as the alternative and why would we ever do the route that results in the NCR getting even stronger.You think we would be gaining a lot of land from the MLA? When they could keep it and have it to themselves? Or the Legion?>Nope: the Frontier, the Shi and all their other holdings imply that they don't give two shits so long as you are civilised. E,g not a raider or tribal.Which is most everyone in the MLA states and the Legion. There would be an enormous stretch of land with no one to work on it. And We have Yaunker's book. He was quite explicit about Californian superiority. The Frontier, and Shi and such are Californian enough.>Except I feel that you are severely underestimating the NCR's growth and advancement. Another decade and we will be behind in many areas, I promise you.Not with how we are advancing. I think you overestimate what they are capable of. And I think you under estimate our chances against the Legion and MLA.>And? They turned on their own people and destroyed their tribal reservations and such.Which is an entirely different situation than the one we're in. They won't betray us out of the blue.
>>1987498tribals are not equatable to us
>>1987560Infact, we're honorary Californians. As long as we don't fuck with them, we're probably safe.
>>1987546>We may not be able to win alone, but if we're supporting the NCR, we can make plenty of gains.'No. If we support the NCR, the NCR will make plenty of gains and we get a few measly scraps.>Our growth potential is so much greater than the NCR, especially since the NCR will be killing a lot of the people we would be integrating. NCR growth will plateau soon.It won't. It really won't. Fact is that their population is just getting more and more educated and their industry keeps growing. They've been moving away from small scale farming towards large industrial farming and literally everything about this means they are going to just have a massive population surplus.Fact is, for the first few years our potential is higher but their labour is so much greater it doesn't matter. Then after that their sheer brain power behind every project ensures that they nearly match our potential while their capacity to build still keeps growing even if we started to catch up in that regard. After that point we ain't getting back in control without a miracle.>It really is.It really isn't.>We're still plenty valuable. Not as valuable as we are to the MLA.>Valuable enough to be safe.For now but now isn't good enough.>You think we would be gaining a lot of land from the MLA? Yes.>When they could keep it and have it to themselves? Because we have Niner and the MLA are entirely willing to make deals. If we offered to produce shit for land they'd agree not to mention the possibility of directly conquering some ourselves when the NCR has to direct it's forces to deal with the loss of the Boomer town or later.>Or the Legion?You mean the people who's advance against the NCR is going incredibly slow at best? Who I specifically said I ain't expecting to give us land but rather to accept our ownership?>Which is most everyone in the MLA states and the Legion. There would be an enormous stretch of land with no one to work on it. Not a problem given that they have a huge population to throw around...>He was quite explicit about Californian superiority. The Frontier, and Shi and such are Californian enough.The literal Chinese are Californian?
>>1987665>Not with how we are advancing. I think you overestimate what they are capable of. Not really. They have the manpower and industry.>And I think you under estimate our chances against the Legion and MLA.Sorry that I don't think our robots could suddenly turn the tide against the endless hordes of the Legion or the technologically capable masses of MLA. Maybe 2 years from now but 2 years from now we might have gotten an entire warfleet from Hawaii and found a secret giant cold fusion reactor in Montana or something.>Which is an entirely different situation than the one we're in. They won't betray us out of the blue.Sure they won't. It's not like we are sitting on top of a mountain of valuable technologies that they know about from Oddball (or was it Oddjob?) like replicators and shit.>>1987560You said that they had never turned on an ally. They had turned on their own people and absorbed tribals. How in the almighty hell is that not equatable?Need sleep. Night all.
> They turned on their own people and destroyed their tribal reservations and such.>Brain"Wouldn't you say they never saw Tribals as much their people in the first place?"Hmm, yeah. They were always talking about integrating tribals before, but eh. . .what usually happens is people move in, and often the tribals move out or stop being tribals entirely. That was well before Yaunker too.Not many tribals were too keen on surrendering their lands or way of life to the NCR either. Sure there were plenty who joined, but a lot more fought quite doggedly. Historically happened that tribals are a favorite target of Slavers, so a lot of the peaceful tribals slowly gave out to the ones who could resist them.That is how Kimball came into office when he took a harder stance on them.--->>1978726>Biological Research >Human body rejuvenation / life extension Interestingly, Dr. Dala and Dr Borous have become co-heads of the Animal Domestication and Husbandry group, citing that they "could learn a thing or two" under their care besides the 'skinvelopes' are also various cyberdogs, the single cyber-claw, and most of BigMT's non-descript monstrosities that were penned up to make room for the humans.>Dr Klein"It would have been useful to have access to the Nursery. We didn't have any in the way of cloning technology and had to turn to splicing ourselves with machines, but to be honest perhaps that ended up all for the better.">Dr Dala"Continued use of organs over time in any creature results in eventual wear and tear with age. And these skinvelopes are occuring significant use to boost public morale."The Think Tank have teleported to the Nursery and begun experimenting on alternative ways to boost the human lifespan.These are the options so far.AVAILABLE ALREADY-cloning. the very same that gave them extended use. although the effects of long term cloning is unused, currently it does not seem like there is a limit to how many times one can be cloned. just grow the body without the brain and transfer the brain. even missing limbs and organs can be regrownCHOOSE FOR MORE RESEARCH-advanced Monocyte Breeder. the limitations of the technology of their age only gave them so much to work with, but with Diana's new technology they may be able to develop a means by which-alien DNA. the Zetans have a curious biology that may yield interesting results. most of them were killed by your hybrid clone, but you do have some samples of them. mostly in jars. splicing attempts could yield something interesting-AHS-9 says that there are "more between Quetzal and Hell than dreamt of in your philosophy".-Other? Would you like to suggest a different method of life extension/rejuvinationNEEDS FEV LAB-the Super Mutants are effectively immortal, give or take the senility that develops over time. but that itself is now curable. Obviously the FEV research facilities are not completed, but this does hold promise. Unity herself is effectively immortal
>>1987665>few measly scraps.Every deal we have done with the NCR has been favorable for us. We have been compensated well for our time.>>1987678>turned on their own peoplewhat people? did I miss something? Also, we're the farthest from tribals we could be
>>1987698>Also, we're the farthest from tribals we could beOk i have been ignoring this argument so i don't know the context here but if you're talking about our Civ then yea, but if you're talking about the courier then no, we were born from tribals.
>>1987723I meant the Civilization we run.
>>1987697-the Super Mutants are effectively immortal, give or take the senility that develops over time. but that itself is now curable. Obviously the FEV research facilities are not completed, but this does hold promise. Unity herself is effectively immortal
>>1987697>Other? Would you like to suggest a different method of life extension/rejuvinationJust a tweak of our genetics, increase the reproduction lifespan of cells to give humans a few more years naturally.
>>1987665>No. If we support the NCR, the NCR will make plenty of gains and we get a few measly scraps.No, we have a deal where we keep what we take. We put in the effort and we get whatever we work for. Fairest deal out there.>It won't. It really won't. Fact is that their population is just getting more and more educated and their industry keeps growing. They've been moving away from small scale farming towards large industrial farming and literally everything about this means they are going to just have a massive population surplus. Again, their population is limited and concentrated in cities. or in the battlefield. They won't be making use of any territory gains anywhere near as much as we would.>Not as valuable as we are to the MLA.How much the MLA appreciates us is irrelevent when we end up with more for siding with tehe NCR>For now but now isn't good enough.For now goes a long way. Once we finish the war on their side, we would have a lot of trust.>Because we have Niner and the MLA are entirely willing to make deals. If we offered to produce shit for land they'd agree not to mention the possibility of directly conquering some ourselves when the NCR has to direct it's forces to deal with the loss of the Boomer town or later.The NCR is also willing to deal, and is the side currently winning. And the MLA isn't just going to back off and leave us huge swathes of land. Not when they can amuse themselves with it.>You mean the people who's advance against the NCR is going incredibly slow at best? Who I specifically said I ain't expecting to give us land but rather to accept our ownership?Once the NCR starts collapsing, the legion would have a hell of a lot more momentum than us, and will be taking a hell of a lot more.>Not a problem given that they have a huge population to throw around...It's a fucking huge amount of land. With all the casualties they suffer, and how people won't want to move to the frontier, it would be pretty inefficient growing.>The literal Chinese are Californian?When they have been in california for the last 200 yrs and assisted in taking out the enclave? Pretty much.
>>1987678>Not really. They have the manpower and industry.For now. As they expand and deal with the "savages" they will find themselves with a lot of land with no one to work it. Which is essentially just useless land. We won't suffer that problem.>Sorry that I don't think our robots could suddenly turn the tide against the endless hordes of the Legion or the technologically capable masses of MLA. Maybe 2 years from now but 2 years from now we might have gotten an entire warfleet from Hawaii and found a secret giant cold fusion reactor in Montana or something.And you think they would against the NCR? our forces are better equipped for dealing with legion and MLA tactics. and forces. Not armoured slugging matches.>Sure they won't. It's not like we are sitting on top of a mountain of valuable technologies that they know about from Oddball (or was it Oddjob?) like replicators and shit.Except they have their own science and they don't want to make a third enemy to distract from the MLA and Legion fronts. And Oddball's tech was unclaimed. We had the chance to Patent our stuff, and we didn't take it. They have no way of knowing whose tech it is other than the person who brings it foreward.You also need to let go on the Oddball thing. Spurning the NCR because of him is emotional and not at all the logically course of action.>You said that they had never turned on an ally. They had turned on their own people and absorbed tribals. How in the almighty hell is that not equatable?Because the tribals were tribals and we are not. It is completely different
>>1987733This, immortality is something we really need to take a long look at and decide if everyone needs it
>>1987733>>1987750The monocyte breeder effectively does that. There isn't exactly a way to alter a persons DNA structure without some sort of mechanical or viral intervention. yet.
>>1987750Immortality is an albatross. It wont end well.
>>1987756>Dr Borous"The idea of some sort of. . .mutation causing ray does sound interesting though."
>>1987756We haven't researched gene engineering yet?
>>1987758In my opinion, immortality should be reserved for us, if we're gonna continue our "eternal rule" of our nation
>>1987774We shouldn't have that either. "eternal rules" always stagnate. It's the nature of man and how they experience time always gets to them.
>>1987769>Brain"Not retroactive gene engineering no, although in theory we could use Diana's gestational acceleration chamber combined with genetic engineering of a zygote or embryo to create modified clones or hybrids."
>>1987778But then we run into the eternal problem of rulers, they either get really shitty, as history shows, or the country gets really bogged down through inefficiency
>>1987697>-advanced Monocyte Breeder. the limitations of the technology of their age only gave them so much to work with, but with Diana's new technology they may be able to develop a means by which
>>1987697-advanced Monocyte Breeder. the limitations of the technology of their age only gave them so much to work with, but with Diana's new technology they may be able to develop a means by whichThis'll enhance our soldiers too.>>1987698>Every deal we have done with the NCR has been favorable for us. We have been compensated well for our time.True but why would they give us land? They haven't ever gave away something they didn't have a good supply of.>what people? did I miss something? Also, we're the farthest from tribals we could beTrue but I wasn't arguing that point.>>1987736>No, we have a deal where we keep what we take. Not in the case of land. That was specified to be on a case by case basis back when we first officially met the NCR.>We put in the effort and we get whatever we work for. Fairest deal out there.Aye and the MLA would offer you the exact same.>Again, their population is limited and concentrated in cities. Trust me they would. Before this war the NCR was a mostly unindustrialised nation with no form of mechanised agriculture. Now they've got a thriving motor industry and all the rest meaning they have a massive surplus of labour and food freed from there. Factor in the stream of people from places like the Frontier and it is clear that the NCR is going to continue growing without end.>or in the battlefield. It's almost as if it wouldn't stay there forever. Especially after a war ends.>They won't be making use of any territory gains anywhere near as much as we would.That has more to do with us lacking land than them not using it.>How much the MLA appreciates us is irrelevant when we end up with more for siding with the NCRExcept you have no reason to believe that we'd get more from the NCR. Literally no concrete reasoning or logic at all.>For now goes a long way. Once we finish the war on their side, we would have a lot of trust.You can have all the trust you want. I'll take my winnings from a war in the form of a nice chunk of land.>The NCR is also willing to deal, and is the side currently winning. Debatable.>And the MLA isn't just going to back off and leave us huge swathes of land. Not when they can amuse themselves with it.Well if we support the MLA...You know, I'd actually considered bothering to continue arguing but then I realised I have LITERALLY no reason to do so. So fuck it, I'm going to sleep and that is the end of this. Not because I think I've won or because I am conceding the points raised, I'm just too tired and have too much to do later (when I wake up). General point is this, the NCR falling first is the most efficient and beneficial route.
>>1987796>they didn't have a good supply of.the breakup of the two biggest empires on the continent will result in an ample amount of land, and if we come to the table as equals, we'll get out fair shareThen what point were you arguing? That they turned on the tribals? Well duh, there's a reason for that
>>1987792That is a problem, but we also have to recognize, we might not always be what is best for the people. Especially if it is based around achieving a higher ideal. George Washington knew it, and so he stepped down. Cincinnatus knew it, and there is a reason why and American city is named after a long dead roman, in a round about way.
>>1987811Washington and Cincinnatus weren't men who were pretty much the best at everything they did, and might as well have formed a nation with their own two hands.Now, would it make for a good story to get passed down? Sure, but if Washington saw the absolute state of congress and the country now, I can't even imagine what he would say.
>>1987796>Not in the case of land. That was specified to be on a case by case basis back when we first officially met the NCR.No land was a keep what you take. We rejected the clause to make it a negotiation. NCR accepted it.>Trust me they would. Before this war the NCR was a mostly unindustrialised nation with no form of mechanised agriculture. Now they've got a thriving motor industry and all the rest meaning they have a massive surplus of labour and food freed from there. Factor in the stream of people from places like the Frontier and it is clear that the NCR is going to continue growing without end.A thriving motor industry means jack when there aren't people to work the land- mine the resources, care for the farms, etc. THose are people that don't just pop into being from thin air. And you act like the MLA isn't growing, or the legion. Everyone is growing.>It's almost as if it wouldn't stay there forever. Especially after a war ends.Adter the war ends, we have a nice blood of the convenent thing, where we fought shoulder to shoulder with them. We would have also just gotten out of the biggest war of the last 200 years. War Weariness is not a solved problem for the NCR.>That has more to do with us lacking land than them not using it.Still we can use what we take for much more than they can. Land isn't everything.>Except you have no reason to believe that we'd get more from the NCR. Literally no concrete reasoning or logic at all.NCR has been pretty generous in the past. No reason to believe they will start screwing with us out of the blue.>You can have all the trust you want. I'll take my winnings from a war in the form of a nice chunk of land.It's almost like you can take material gains and make stronger diplomatic ties at teh same time. Just because we earn their trust doesn't mean we leave with nothing. It isn't how that works.>Well if we support the MLA...If we support the MLA, we get leaned on until we swear to the dark god and become a puppet ruler. Really looking out for number one there buddy.General point is, NCR alliance is the safest, most profitable course of action and leaves us in the best position for our continued expansion.
>>1987796>NCR was a mostly unindustrialised nationbut the NCR was making guns, armor, had vehicles, and actual factories. Are they more advanced now? Sure, but the NCR wasn't some third world country
>>1987697>advanced Monocyte Breeder. the limitations of the technology of their age only gave them so much to work with, but with Diana's new technology they may be able to develop a means by whichThis makes it three for this path>>1987795>>1987796
>>1987697The Think Tank are working on a two-pronged approach. On the one, using advanced replication and current research on the monocyte breeder implant in tandem with the use of Diana's accelerated gestational device, to see if they can halt it in certain creatures. Animals are being grown and rapidly aged to goop, to Diana's chagrin. They are investigating certain long lived species with minimal senescence, such as tortoises and lobsters certain microbial varieties stored in Diana's repository. A promising creature is a tiny fresh water creature known as the Hydra, which is said to have virtually no aging to them.On the other, rather than attempting to halt aging, they are trying to reverse or at least heal its effects via the processes of the monocyte breeder itself. No results are made yet, its a project that will take investment. But nobody expected "Immortality to be easy">Klein"I bet the imbeciles at CIT never discovered a way to be immortal! Not in 200 years!"Unity notes the Irony. "It's the exact opposite problem I had. I couldn't age even if I wanted to, and now you're trying to prevent it.">Klein"This research will only go so far with animals alone. What we need are humans. Prime humans would be best, but any humans will do. Fetch me more specimens."
>>1987881... Question, Why not the horse shoe crab?
>>1987889>Why not the horse shoe crab?Are horse shoe crabs immortal? I know their blood is medically valuable, but that is dealing with infections or something.
>>1987881Why not Jellyfish?I know they are remake them self and live forever.
>- Go purchase more slaves from the MLA for the NCR as well as some for ourselves along with as much metal / fissile The MLA are glad to exchange 271 more slaves and metal and fissile in exchange for more advanced electronics and high tuned parts. Not just hovercraft parts, but certain other ones too. Instead of asking for a full design, they simply give out specifications and your replicators and ZAX do the work.>ZAX(CEO) "What on earth do you think they are making">ZAX(MAJOR) "Weapons. Has to be weapons.">ZAX(RND) "Laboratory equipment?">ZAX(SPI) "Perhaps stealth equipment">ZAX(RIG'D) "Hmmm, maybe they're trying to make their own lobotomites and are using these to make Tesla Coils and Brain Chips">ZAX(CEO) "Come now RIG'D we're looking for serious suggestions here."---New Turn soon.
>>1987926Why are we not showering them with caps? We should have more than enough to buy slaves and materials with. Also, how far along the "Im an american citizen" scale are the last batch of slaves? Are they working already? Any problems? Hows the education? Do the 500-odd slaves give some sort of benefit on actions?
>>1987926How many are NCR? and why aren't we paying with all the cash money the NCR dumped on us?
>>1987931Actually i think we are, we haven't made any weapons this turn so i think we are using the caps+electronic parts.
>>1987934>>1987931How many caps of your stockpile do you wish to give. All the ones the NCR dumped on you guys?Just wanted to make sure everyone was on board with splurging them.
>>1987938>All the ones the NCR dumped on you guys?Yes.
>>198793875 percent. Though get more NCR guys than last time.
>>1987938Basically as much as we can reasonably give and still have some left over for emergency things/Montana haggling. Basically >>1987943
>>1987943I Support this choice
>>1987938Also, does the MLA know about NCR switching currency? The imminent devaluation of the cap?
>>1987948I don't think they would know about that. Even if they did it would have small impact on them since the NCR is hostile with them. But it's better to use it before someone else has the same idea
>>1987948The cap would only devalue if the NCR started offloading it. Which they seem to be doing through us, so we have a bit of control in how much the cap is worth.Caps sitting in a vault in the NCR aren't going to inflate anything.
>>1987952However, the idea that there is a whole nations share of caps soon to be on a smaller market means people will be wary. The same reason why the stock market fluctuates over political events. And when we finally do start to massively offload caps the price will drop faster because of this knowledge.
>>1987938Get all NCR soldiers/civilians, even the super fucked up ones. We deliver all of them back, and retain the skilled / unbroken slaves as new American citizens.75% of our stockpile sounds good.
>Niner"These NCR slaves ain't exactly cheap. Lots more value in em as war trophies or sacrifices for the cult than your usual wastelander. Plus some other things I'm not privvy to say eh.Oh damn man, that's a lotta caps. If this were last year, I'd feel honored. But now the NCR is making soda bottles with the caps, and everything is going up. It's not looking too good for the bean counters. Guys are trading their bottlecaps for NCR dollars now.Your my friend though so I'll take this in good faith, but these caps ain't just what they used to be."+144 NCR POWs.
>>1988012Told ya.Does he still want the caps though? Just more of them? Are they switching currency now as well? How much metal/fissile did we get?
>>1988016And how many non-NCR slaves...Also, we're going to mind-rape these guys as well, right?
>>1988018>The MLA are glad to exchange 271 more slaves and metal and fissile in exchange for more advanced electronics and high tuned parts. >Not just hovercraft parts, but certain other ones too. Instead of asking for a full design, they simply give out specifications and your replicators and ZAX do the work.From OP past post
>>1988012QM, will you have time on the weekend or is it more sporadic posts? This is not to imply anything bad, just to help people manage their expectations and to allow you to do whatever you need to do without having to worry about the quest.
>BIG MThttps://pastebin.com/jAXYFRB1>THE NURSERYhttps://pastebin.com/ic3ac1xL>MONTANNAhttps://pastebin.com/hNDfikF9A C0NSTRUCT0R is being built passively, this will take about 2 more turns of passive, non-active production. However this will greatly increase the construction/collection of wherever you devote it too.The MLA's provision of scrap metal, the steel from the OW Automated Supply Depot, and fissile plus automated hexcrete mines have just barely covered the expenses we incured---ALERT:Your Medical Team is rapidly reaching capacity to treat SO many new integrates. Although no one is dying thanks to abundant supplies, the logistics of this much new people so quickly is stretching both man and machine to receive everyone and care for any non-acute sicknesses, trauma, and such.>James Bond"Additional supervision required."The robot military is being recalled from the front to supervise things under James Bond's orders and provide manpower.The problem is they were still sort of dealing with the previous slaves who, after some months, are much better but now there's so many more people.The replicators are holding and providing out basic necessities of food, water, medical aid. In that regard everything is working well. However:>Arcade"We need more of everything. Living spaces, expanded sewer systems, food distribution robots, this is a huge amount of influx we hadn't properly anticipated.We should also train more researchers/medics. We have the schools to do so, but if we're going to be taking in hundreds of people from a brutalistic gang of raiders, we can't do with barely over 50 combined humans and medical machines each. Even if we're the best. . .we can't be at two places at once. We've got people already very educated with the ASA, we just need a training action to officiate them so they can stop working as volunteers."We are also in great need of new housing. Furthermore, we're running out of places to store the prisoners. CHOOSE:-Build fences quickly out in the open, store them there in tents and sleeping bags with makeshift latrines-Store them in the alien spaceship under supervision-Store them in the FORBIDDEN Zone-Other? Call the NCR to pick them up?>Dr Klein"I warned you we needed bigger specimen pens. You got rid of Little Yangtze!"--->>1988036That will have to be an announcement I'll make during the weekend. I admit as of recent its been play by post (and mainly when the turn is finally finished). I am trying to stick to the update a day thing.I hope during the weekend I can have a sit down and fast update session.---NewNEW TURN4 Action Cap.Available Actions: Civilian, Construction, Military, Research, ZAX, Hero+Robotic Research does not count toward cap.+Biological Research does not count toward cap>>>>>Turn: 121
>>1988046Turn:>Hero- Fly to Hawaii with EDE and Daisy piloting. Once we land, have Riddick and Cain ready to come through the portal- Convene a research council with all our scientists + Think tank; ask them what we immigrate priorities we should focus our free robotics and bio research options on>Construction 1 Finish FEV lab (e.g specimen pens + hidden testing facility)>Construction 2Parts / weapons for the MLA in exchange for slaves>Civ Restore Dr Mobius and organise our researchers into specific teams based on their skills / personality - each with a team lead>ZAXImproved automated supply chain (robots + vertibirds) for Divide scavenging>Robo-research Research all the BoS robots we got for upgrades to add to our regular forces.>Bio research Strong universal defoliant>Passive productionC0NSTRUCT0R
>>1988046Food and Water have decreased following the influx of new people. Levels are no longer luxurious, but passable. Everyone grumbles a bit about the rationing to feed the newcomers, but many feel a patriotic spirit to help their new comrades.The slaves are, for the most part, very glad and are adopting well, but again, we're chronically short on living space and non-basic necessities. The service industry established partly by the ASA and the Hubologists are a fantastic help, allocating various businesses to provide new clothes, tents, and other goods and services to the newcomers, as well as organizing medically trained volunteers. The small following of Mormons are also pitching in and providing prayer sessions, although at the same time the Lobotomite keepers are providing a different sort of comfort. The growing following of Mormons are opposed to the Lobotomites and preach against their usage on religious and ethical grounds, the Hubologists are more accepting of the practice.
>>1988048>- Convene a research council with all our scientists + Think tank; ask them what we immigrate priorities we should focus our free robotics and bio research options onThis was requested last thread, I'm still compiling it you'll get an answer though for sure.
>>1988048Change the second construction to.>Build more homes for the New slaves, and expand the sewer systems too.
>>1988052I support the turn (hell I wrote it last turn)But I agree with changing the second construction action to deal with the influx of people. I think we can do more than just new houses / expanded sewers though. Add more to it. We also might want to change the CIV action to incorporate more researchers / scientists. I'd prefer to keep the ASA as a private body at this point though, rather bringing them into our government. They are basically the lynchpin of private industry at the moment after all.>>1988046>-Store them in the FORBIDDEN ZoneUnder robot supervision
Rolled 9 (1d100)>>1988048Supporting and Rolling
>>1988048In light of the QM's post, I'd propose this revised list:Turn:>Hero- Fly to Hawaii with EDE and Daisy piloting. Once we land, have Riddick and Cain ready to come through the portal- Help the new slaves integrate - Make a speech over the radio celebrating the growth of America while reminding our people that victory requires individual sacrifice - Assist with the CIV action>Construction 1 Finish FEV lab (e.g specimen pens + hidden testing facility)>Construction 2Build more homes for the new slaves, while also expanding our current sewers, food distribution centers, school and Follower Hospital.>Civ Restore Dr Mobius and organise our researchers into specific teams based on their skills / personality - each with a team lead>ZAXImproved automated supply chain (robots + vertibirds) for Divide scavenging>Robo-research Research all the BoS robots we got for upgrades to add to our regular forces.>Bio research Strong universal defoliant>Passive productionC0NSTRUCT0R>>1988046>NCR Prisoners Have our military peacefully debrief each prisoner for any useful intel.Provide them each with new clothes, a shower and a meal - along with a copy of our book. Then deliver them to the NCR border.
>>1988087All-in-all I agree with the plan. However, we will need to scan any NCR personnel worthwhile. This was the original goal and it still is, especially since the cap is fast becoming useless as currency. We dont need to scan every farmer but any military officers or leaders, public servants and especially scientists/engineers need to be scanned and their knowledge added to ours (SPI can oversee this).And moving forward, no new slaves until we have the fusion plant and the large disintegrator running. We need the flexibility they add and we really cant deal with that many new slaves yet. We need to school the ones we have first and that takes time.
>>1988095>However, we will need to scan any NCR personnel worthwhileI thought of that, but the only problem is that it will be quite suspicious if we just separate some prisoners from the rest - especially if these prisoners are 'high-value'That, plus the fact that we need to shave their heads to perform the mind interrogation will both be dodgy to the other prisoners and ultimately the NCR>No new slavesAgreed with that
>>1988101Everybody gets a medical exam. Some just take longer. And it so happens all the interesting people take longer (in addition to some randos to even it out a bit). Also, I didnt know we needed to shave the head. Why is that? Cant we glue the electrodes with some jelly? And if we do need to shave, do it to everyone anyway. Cite radlice or some other nonsense that seems plausible.
Was bored, so that means fresh propaganda
>>1988087I'll support this
And another, this one aimed at our new NCR soldier prisoners
>>1988174Probably best not to try to sway them over so blatantly. They might get offended.>>1988087Support
>>1988179>Probably best not to try to sway them over so blatantly. They might get offended.Eh, all of our propaganda is quite blatant - more fun that way.New and final one - this one aimed at helping to integrate the former slaves / our new citizens
Rolled 63 (1d100)>>1988087Here's a roll
Rolled 54 (1d100)>>1988087So looks like this is winningRoll
Rolled 94 (1d100)>>1988087Rolling>inb4 nat 1
>>1988372Still not statistically significant but Ill take it.
>>1988195Man, if you guys only had more water to spend on Diana's water minimal grass this would be perfect.
>>1988087The NCR prisoners are once again, only giving Name, Rank, and Serial number. Even efforts to get them to loosen up through comfort and care are not very effective. Especially the officers.>Brain"That really should have worked on any amateurs. I suspect the NCR must have an awareness of basic anti-interrogation techniques and the use of comfort to loosen up tongues, I know as much as I'm a brain and you do talk more when you feel comfortable.""Hmm, but perhaps it doesn't help we don't have proper interrogation facilities either. And this tactic takes more time.">What do?
>>1988419Eh. just give em to the NCR.The sooner we offload them the sooner we get paid
>>1988419I say to just call NCR and have them taken away.
>>1988419Scan them. AT LEAST the officers and any scientist there may be. We are not doing this just to help the NCR.
>>1988442No way are they not going to get suspicious if we start taking people away. Also the NCR wint buy the securityaccident excuse twice.
>>1988426>>19884322 for give them away>>1988428>>19884422 for surgery
>>1988469It doesnt have to be an explosion. Just pick a few out of the 144 and say they have a disease or something. Mental trauma, whatever.We have the opportunity to spy on the NCR and do it without them knowing vs let the chance slip and gain nothing.
>>1987736Alright I'm back from sleeping. Time to continue proving you wrong.>The NCR is also willing to deal, and is the side currently winning. And the MLA isn't just going to back off and leave us huge swathes of land. Not when they can amuse themselves with it.If we support the MLA we can deal for land. This is a fact and I can be almost certain if we raised it with the council of warlords they'd agree to giving us land for supporting them although the amount we receive might be debatable we can't really say without talking to them.>Once the NCR starts collapsing, the legion would have a hell of a lot more momentum than us, and will be taking a hell of a lot more.And referring to the map, the region that they are going to be going through is more or less entirely desert.>It's a fucking huge amount of land. With all the casualties they suffer, and how people won't want to move to the frontier, it would be pretty inefficient growing.Ignoring the fact they have a heavily nationalised economy and their entire education / culture focuses on them reclaiming america along with an incoming massive increase in labour available for use? Probably.>When they have been in california for the last 200 yrs and assisted in taking out the enclave? Pretty much.Fair enough.>For now. As they expand and deal with the "savages" they will find themselves with a lot of land with no one to work it. Which is essentially just useless land. We won't suffer that problem.Actually we would, as we can only expand so fast with robots especially given that automating industry requires additional construction time.>And you think they would against the NCR? Seeing as I'd mostly have us in an AA role? Yeah. Especially because the NCR's ground troops would struggle to kill a securitron which can pull out before their tanks can reinforce them so even in ground combat we'd slaughter.>Our forces are better equipped for dealing with legion and MLA tactics. and forces. Not armoured slugging matches.Agreed but the NCR is only going to get tougher from here on out. If we don't manage to intervene soon they'll continue to industrialise, research and expand beyond anything we can match.>Except they have their own science and they don't want to make a third enemy to distract from the MLA and Legion fronts. A third enemy with no known air defence, no known anti-armour assets and a significantly smaller population than either of those other enemies. >And Oddball's tech was unclaimed. We had the chance to Patent our stuff, and we didn't take it. I'd point out I always get into this argument of "we could've patent'd it" but I fail to see how that would help. When the NCR government is the one with the control over those patents and could erase them in an instant.>They have no way of knowing whose tech it is other than the person who brings it forward.Then why do they claim that Hexcrete was invented in New Reno? Because that argument ain't true in the slightest.
>You also need to let go on the Oddball thing. Spurning the NCR because of him is emotional and not at all the logically course of action.I got over the Oddball thing a long time ago. Destroying the NCR is the most logical course of action.>Because the tribals were tribals and we are not. It is completely differentOh sure it is.>>1987802>the breakup of the two biggest empires on the continent will result in an ample amount of land, and if we come to the table as equals, we'll get out fair shareOur fair share or the NCR's interpretation of what our fair share is are two entirely separate things.Also, why have a share of the MLA-Legion when you could have the far more valuable NCR lands?>>1987833>No land was a keep what you take. We rejected the clause to make it a negotiation. NCR accepted it.Then we are even worse off. Because the NCR will almost certainly push the MLA-Legion back without our help and thus we won't exactly be making the gains you are expecting.Especially given that we are what is holding the MLA-Legion's head above water to some degree.>A thriving motor industry means jack when there aren't people to work the land- mine the resources, care for the farms, etc. Those are people that don't just pop into being from thin air. No they don't but as it turns out when you suddenly give every farmer a tractor they don't need 50+ farmhands to keep shit in check. So hey, look at that, their thriving motor industry churning out tractors they didn't have before MEANS THEY HAVE THE PEOPLE.>And you act like the MLA isn't growing, or the legion. Everyone is growing.The Legion's numbers don't matter given their lack of tech and the MLA are going to stall out soon from lack of new places to expand. >Adter the war ends, we have a nice blood of the convenent thing, where we fought shoulder to shoulder with them. We would have also just gotten out of the biggest war of the last 200 years. War Weariness is not a solved problem for the NCR.It actually kinda is all things considered. Seeing as war weariness refers to a lack of funding, public support or other such things which if the NCR wins they'll be far from lacking in.>Still we can use what we take for much more than they can. Land isn't everything.All the more reason to take as much as we can and to take the more valuable and developed NCR lands.>NCR has been pretty generous in the past. No reason to believe they will start screwing with us out of the blue.They don't need to screw us out of the blue when what we can offer to them is shit to them. Whereas to the MLA-Legion our aid is vastly more important.
>It's almost like you can take material gains and make stronger diplomatic ties at teh same time. Just because we earn their trust doesn't mean we leave with nothing. It isn't how that works.I know it isn't but the fact remains that I know the going the MLA-Legion route gets us the NCR lands which are worth more and going your route gets us fuck all effectively.>If we support the MLA, we get leaned on until we swear to the dark god and become a puppet ruler. Like fuck that would happen. I'd point out to you that they are treating us as an equal and member already so it's hardly as if they are going to try and force the issue.>General point is, NCR alliance is the safest, most profitable course of action and leaves us in the best position for our continued expansion.It really isn't.What the NCR route results in is the NCR and BOS meeting up, the BOS who have previously stated an intent to ally with the NCR, who then would form a giant fucking bloc we couldn't beat.It also fucks us out of the valuable NCR lands in order to get some shitty legion lands (literally nothing here) and some MLA lands (assuming they don't take all those).This is before mentioning that these plans of mine are not for immediate use but rather for IF, IF a tipping point is reached because I like the state we are currently in and want to maintain it too but I'd argue that in another year or two, which I feel is the maximum amount of time we have until the NCR or MLA-Legion is really pushing either way, we will be strong enough to step into the war and make serious gains either way but that in turn depends on how Hawaii, Montana and if we ever get round to it Texas goes so it may be the case that I end up agreeing with you but that would require we were far stronger than we are currently.
>>1988481Return them to the NCR and get our payment.
>>1988500Because the NCR land would be pillaged and destroyed far more than if we just decided to take them our ourselves.>>1988481Give them up
>>1988496>>1988500>>1988508You, sir, have it absolutely correct. We must continue with the equalibrium and when push comes to shove kill the NCR and claim its lands. What the other anons dont seem to realize is that the BoS is the next NCR variant for the MLA and Legion to fight. Any powerlevel differences are offset by the MLA and Legion having to keep a hold on vast swathes of land, meaning the attack on the BoS will be very slow at first. This, again, keeps us always growing and getting bigger while the rest fight it out amongst themselves and become weaker over time.
>>1988521We have nowgere near the capability to take much of anything. We would end up with a pitamce while the MLA and legion take the lionshare of all the good stuff.
>>1988530This, whether we want the NCR or MLA first, we need more of everything in our nation first, and an actual war plan.
>>1988541>Brain"And definitely an army that isn't passively built in piece meal. I'm sure you'd understand it'd be prudent to mobilize before any major military action."
>>1988530And if we play our cards right we wont need huge areas of farmland. We only need areas of high value (any science or pre-war installations). They can keep the boneyard as long as we get the Shi computer. They can take the Capital when we get to keep the ZAX. If we properly focus on replicators and their use, any particular area of land will be inconsequential to us. Whats the need for an iron mine if we can literally turn sand into airships? Why take over a foundry when the rock under our feet provides just as good a building material for our robots? Get where I am going with this?
>>1988520>Because the NCR land would be pillaged and destroyed far more than if we just decided to take them our ourselves.And if we tell the MLA to not fuck up the shit we are going to be keeping they'll keep it in good shape or at least as good a shape as is possible for an invasion. Also, since I must state this again, read the last paragraph where I specifically say that I want to wait as long as possible to make sure we are as strong as possible so we can do as much as possible.>>1988521Not to mention that the moment the NCR meets the BOS they'll ally. Imagine the result of that. Fact is if we can get Hawaii, most of Montana and Texas we can invade the NCR from three directions (while using the Texas holdings to distract the Legion and possibly even the Nursery).>>1988530That assumes that we can't make a deal with the MLA for a specific amount or area of land but fair enough if that is your worry.>>1988541Agreed. I've discussed my plans for defeating the MLA and the Legion. I can detail my plan for the NCR but I've got to get ready to go for a meal with my family. So I'll see you all in a few hours at most.
>>1988552Hmmm, but I wonder if your NCR plan relies on the fact that the MLA are on our side in this fight. If so, then I could also draw up a plan for a pure NCR/Phoenix war
>>1988559Why waste our forces? If we attack the MLA/Legion will do so too, no question about it, meaning we may have a better say but we dont really care all that much about land itself, only what tech is on it. It would seem to me more prudent to let the MLA/Legion take the losses while we do intelligence/tech work and strike teams. While the MLA/Legion is the anvil that gets beaten we are the scalpel that cuts where it hurts, if youll excuse my prose. This, again, since we only need select things from the MLA. Being the stealth part would also allow us to destroy any objects we dont want the MLA/Legion to have (if the NCR doesnt do it already), meaning we can scout out and steal/blow up anything valuable that we can carry and negotiate for the select things we cant carry. While the MLA/Legion rely on land and infrastructure we have no such problems. Just use teleporters to move troops and shuffle the cards in the shadows so we have all the aces.
>>1988570You can argue a similiar plan involving siding with the NCR. Use them as the flashy distraction that ties up the MLA and Legion troops, while we surgical strike key positions, make sudden spear heads towards key fortifications and ccities, and use our superior mobility to flank and squeeze the more infantry oriented forces between our bots and NCR armour.
>>1988552>And if we tell the MLA to not fuck up the shit we are going to be keeping they'll keep it in good shape or at least as good a shape as is possible for an invasionDidn't everyone disagree that the MLA/Legion couldn't keep their dick and gladius in their pants so they don't fuck up the territory?We have all agreed already that the MLA and Legion will inevitably loot and rape the NCR territory. Now while you guys apparently don't care about the rape or murder, you probably care care about the damage to infrastructure that will happen once the "gates are opened"So it is only possible, that to capture the NCR as pristine as possible, we have to be the sole power to do it. As for "wasting our forces" we should let this point wait until we can verify if the MLA want out forces officially as part of the war
>>1988577Yes, and were we fighting with the NCR that would be my sugestion. However as violet anon already pointed out, fighting FOR the NCR fucks us over in so many ways while fighting AGAINST the NCR allows for the potential to take all of their tech and have the MLA/Legion just continue fighting another foe. Meaning we get way more and keep the relative power levels far longer if we shiv the NCR.
>>1988579Again, if we use our cards wisely we will have no need for any infrastructure. Ever. Meaning we dont care how blown up the land is if we can have a constructor just walk and repair at the same time. We dont care about the MLA/Legion damages as long as we will eventually be the ones to control the territory.
>>1988559>Hmmm, but I wonder if your NCR plan relies on the fact that the MLA are on our side in this fight. I account for it by assuming we can have fewer front-line elements but generally the plan is still the same since we need to counter their tanks and planes in order to render their infantry a far easier to eliminate target. I'd also advise developing anti-artillery measures similar to what the NCR Ghost division tanks and their supporting units had since we'd not want entire squads getting wiped by their indirect fire elements.Mostly it's like the plan to eliminate the MLA (constant push of robots) but with an notably stronger presence of our anti-air and anti-tank / fortification models.>If so, then I could also draw up a plan for a pure NCR/Phoenix warEh, do what you want man, multiple war plans only helps to refine our methods and solve issues.>>1988579>Didn't everyone disagree that the MLA/Legion couldn't keep their dick and gladius in their pants so they don't fuck up the territory?They'll kill the population and probably do some surface damage but seeing as my goals are industry and power generation, these losses don't matter. Especially when the NCR may prove rebellious and hard to manage so a reduction in population would be useful. Fact is that I'm more worried about the NCR destroying shit as they lose it to deny us / the MLA it.>We have all agreed already that the MLA and Legion will inevitably loot and rape the NCR territory. Now while you guys apparently don't care about the rape or murder, you probably care care about the damage to infrastructure that will happen once the "gates are opened"True but to be frank if we've gotten the word of the MLA that they won't and got a dark god pact then I'd have no issue. Since that is the best protection we can have.>So it is only possible, that to capture the NCR as pristine as possible, we have to be the sole power to do it. Agreed but I've already stated that I want to wait as long as possible maintaining this balance in the hope of reaching that point.>As for "wasting our forces" we should let this point wait until we can verify if the MLA want out forces officially as part of the warAgreed, they do want our aid in covert matters but to be fair I'm not bothered about getting involved in a direct war until we need to or want to.
>>1988597>if we use our cards wiselyWhat does this even mean? We are making an American Empire, right? It would be a huge pain in the ass if we needed to dispatch constructors all over the country, instead of the infrastructure already being there. >>1988601We could always invest in drones and have an air force of our own, as I do believe, even in our advanced state, air power is key. As for your anti-artillery methods, supporting elements could be instituted. Isn't one of the biggest issues our lack of population? If a large majority of the NCR population is unusable to us, then we aren't much of an empire.>we've gotten the word of the MLA that they won't If we get their written word that they won't, then I could reconsider my stance, but you're dealing with a raider nation. That shit is gonna happen.I also have agreed that we need to build up our forces, as >>1988547 said, we need to devote actions to it now
>>1988481Give them away
Can you guys vote and make a tiebreaker instead of arguing with this shit?Or suggest some alternatives.
>>1988618>We could always invest in drones and have an air force of our own, as I do believe, even in our advanced state, air power is key. As for your anti-artillery methods, supporting elements could be instituted. Oh I agree air drones are a fundamental part of combating every foe in my current plans. As the vertical mobility makes shit so much easier.>Isn't one of the biggest issues our lack of population?Which we are endeavouring to solve via Montana and research into things like accelerated growth and such. Plus our lack of population is only so noticeable because we lack the robots to make up for it for now.>If a large majority of the NCR population is unusable to us, then we aren't much of an empire.Eh, an empire is an empire is an empire. If we can enforce our will just as strongly as the empire that is the MLA, then we are an empire.>If we get their written word that they won't, then I could reconsider my stance, but you're dealing with a raider nation. That shit is gonna happen.Fair enough.>I also have agreed that we need to build up our forces, as >>1988547 said, we need to devote actions to it nowAgreed. Once we've got the reactor and various implements of non-fissile replication under way we can get started on mass producing everything we need.Plus, we'll soon have some shit started in Montana and possibly Hawaii under our control which will enable us to greatly expand our efforts.I must go now.
>>1988669Montana was barely populated pre-war, I don't know how many people are living there currently, but California certainly has more.>an empire is an empire is an empireThere is a reason I value the old Roman empire more than the Mongol Empire, because a lot of the Mongol empire was empty space and land, whereas the Roman Empire has a very large population. This is a personal opinion, but if we rule California and no one lives there, we aren't really an Empire.Enjoy your meal Anon
>>1988618Replicators and the energy to use them. We can do in months what traditional industry does in years.
>>1988698Doesn't change the fact that an un-damaged territory is far more valuable than a damaged or destroyed one
>>1988481Return them to themNCR.but let them know they are welcome back if they choose.when everything starts falling apart they may come back as refugees
>>1988583He has not pointed out anything of the sort. The NCR would be the best support and is the best ally for the MLA NCR war. Its the most profitable in the long run to side with them.
>>1988744How?? The NCR will baloon far faster than us if there is nobody to oppose them and we will be in no state to either fight them or take them over politically since they have the larger army and Yaunker would be the most popular being since jesus.The other way around we can swoop in as saviours when we finally liberate the wastes from the MLA/Legion (who are fighting the BoS so we have space and time to grow).>>1988710Yes, however the option assumes we are either siding with the NCR or soloing them. Either way bad right now. Maybe when the NCR is on its knees and we have a massive army so we can "save the day".
>>1988601>They'll kill the population and probably do some surface damage but seeing as my goals are industry and power generation, these losses don't matter. Especially when the NCR may prove rebellious and hard to manage so a reduction in population would be useful. Fact is that I'm more worried about the NCR destroying shit as they lose it to deny us / the MLA it.The MLA will murder rape everyone, steal everything not bolted down and then steal the bolts and what was once bolted down. We arent going to be getting any valuable infrastructure off them without paying out the nose for it.>True but to be frank if we've gotten the word of the MLA that they won't and got a dark god pact then I'd have no issue. Since that is the best protection we can have.You expect a bunch of murder rapist looters will agree to no murder, rape and loot? If they make the deal, sure, but it wont happen.
>>1988755I mean if we want to roll with the idea that "the NCR has suffered a huge blow so we come in guns blazing and save the country from the barbarians. Then we just decide to keep the country, and we distract the people with luxuries. That, or we make the NCR our uber ally until the MLA and Legion are done for and we swoop in and take over
>>1988755Hard to be taken seriously as saviors when we have a public history of working side by side with them. No one would believe it, just think we were a power mad asshole. Liberating people we would be directly responsible for enslaving does not go very far.We side with the NCR, we present ourselves as a safe haven for tribals, as we "civilize them" while we liberate the midwest. That leaves us with a lot of happy people as well as the resources there. NCR camt grow too big too fast or it wont be able to maintain logistics and goods, but we can, so we can sustain a much further reach than they can. Then as we build up once more we go after the NCR while they come into conflict with the BOS. The midwest brotherhood wont side with the NCR. They hate each other. The NCR killed the Lost Hill, seat of BOS power.
>>1988769That is an option yes, and not a bad one, however that leaves the BoS to be dealt with.In any case, we currently continue on the path of fucking the NCR as both those options depend on this.
>>1988786BOS is us but not as good. With the midwest resources we should be able to take them. Especially since we can offer what the reavers are selling. Will be hard getting people to fight against the guys offering "perfection"
>>1988781The BoS openly approved of the NCR. They are friends, if uneasy ones. Besides, we dont just shove bots down peoples throats. As I have mentioned we use the MLA/Legion as a tool and only do blackops ourselves. Plausible deniability and when we finally do swoop in with bots they will not care about what might or might not be when we keep them from getting killed. Yaunker may know but the people will love us. Theyll eat it all up if it means safety and comfort under us.
>>1988811Isn't the BOS supplying the MLA though? Or is that a different chapter.
>>1988816MLA is taking from the BOS salvage and loot.>>1988807Approves in killing the MLA. When it comes to actual meeting between the 2, with no MLA to distract them, it would devolve into war. To many grudges to not go that way.
>>1988825Second part is for >>1988811
>>1988825So then the BOS and NCR aren't friends if the MLA is getting supplied from them
>>1988832the BoS has clearly split into factions. likely stemming from the absorption into the NCR
>>1988863So good, if the BOS is splintered, then it makes it easier for us to take them onAlso, if we can go to the negotiating table with the NCR, we can finally talk to Yaunker face to face
>>1988681>if you rule California and now one lives there, we aren't really an EmpireI'd argue you'd still be an EmpireAnd Empire Of One
>>1988883BOOOOOOO! GET OFF THE STAGE!
>>1988870Yeah, but the factions are pretty independantly powerful. East coast has pretty wide area to just expand into.Mid West is warring with the MLA and has a significant robot forceChicago guys maybe exist?
>>1988870or, we could roll them into us.assuming of course they arent talking to elijah, which of course they are because they were familiar with holograms.
>>1988922the NCR? No way Elijah is daling with them. He hates the NCR with a passion.
>>1988922Oh you meant the Elijah and the BOS. I doubt it. Elijah also hates the BOS for being weak failures. Seems he is using the MLA, or at least picking apart the remains of their battles, with the rocka and roll voodoo.
>>1988935my opinion is that elijah is certainly using the MLA. And he might have taken the opportunity presented by their loss to convince the rogue Brotherhood that he was right all along. I mean.... considering how shit went down he would sound pretty convincing.And it would explain why they are familiar with hologram tech which is by no means wide spread.
>>1988959>9Right. And end of the line, ELijah is the biggest imminent threat to use. He would do anything to get to us after all we put him through. If he sides with the MLA, then by default, we're pushed to side with the NCR.Especially since he's probably going to turn everyone into ghosts and put all of America under a red fog.
>>1988991This. I mean, we could even get the MLA and NCR to stop fighting if Elijah became a big enough fight. I don't think we truly understand how powerful he is.
Gonna attempt some phone postings.On the topic of robotics research, advancing the loader technology + passive production including constructors would greatly help steel income in the divide which along with energy are main priorities.Youth extensions would be beneficial to continue though ahs-9 states that state neurological and psionic research is warranted. Both groups, except the more ethical types, agree more specimens are needed for experimentation. And bigger specimen pens.
>>1989068We're going to depopulate the raider population of the North.Are there any legends about us among raiders/general populace?
>>1989118You don't need legends. You have survivors.Most people agree, living under raiders is bad. Isn't it swell to live in our free and isolated america? Protected by an army of robots and our heroic leader!The freed slaves can't complain too much about freedom, but quietly lament their loved ones still in bondage or worse. Some wish we were more like the NCR, fighting to free the slaves rather than dealing and perpetuating it, but they don't say this openly.Ironically some of the freed slaves wonder if legion slaves actually have it better. Your old populace still hate the legion more out of traditional history.arcade hates them all.
>>1989145you know, we could just shut the slave trade down entirely by raiding them and bagging all the slavers for experiments.huge PR win, good population boost, lots of experimenting resources, its like a win-win-win
>>1989145The Freed slaves I'm general are also the lucky ones. Notwithstanding being purchased but they have most of their health and their minds and have useful skills or talents. So many more do not
>>1989145Ah man, if only we could get everyone in this thread on the side of the NCR. Having us fight for freedom from slavery would be so good for PR, and would really give us the America image we want.
>>1989173Exactly. I don't understand how anyone thinks we can portray ourselves as liberators, especially after we are directly responsible for the enslavement of the entire MLA. Somehow some anons thing people will buy that.
>>1989186>Brain"What is the saying 'history is written by victor'.nobody knows who said it, but logically they couldn't have said it if they lost. Surely we just need to be the victor."
>>1989200But we can't really rewrite history on that level, can we? Everyone knows the MLA and Legion are slavers, so if we work with them, we are working with people that go against everything America stands for. Some editing here and there is one thing, but changing such a large part of history is impossible short of mass brainwashing
>>1989173>>1989186I'm completely for it. I know we have one or two guys who are EXTREMELY opposed to it but don't let their unending arguments paint the picture as if everyone is on their side. I don't evenmind if it means openly waging war against MLA and Legion.
>>1989236Well then maybe we should put it to a vote, at least to see where everyone stands. Most anons here don't like to argue 24/7 so they're the silent majority.Plus, if we tell the NCR we want to negotiate about entering the war, we could even have a face to face conversation with Yaunker
>>1989250This kind of vote should run for a long time as we have people participating from all over the world.
>>1989200Except that is a flawed concept that is inaccurate.If we were to full stop side with the NCR, It would be impossible to convince people who lived through the war that we didn't. Well we could if we brainwashed everyone, but that just piles lies on lies, and everything collapses.Anyhow, if we sided with the MLA against the NCR, the NCR citizens would know it. Yaunker would publicize the betrayal like hell. Then, when we betray the MLA, do you really think the ex-NCR citizens would bend over and kiss our feet for it?
>>1989281If QM would post a vote, a long running vote , basically drawing lines in the sand, on where people stand. It wouldn't be definite or anything, but it would help clear up arguments.>>1989200Do you think we could do something like this? I would put up the vote, but I think people would gloss over it
http://www.strawpoll.me/14191946>>1989290>>1989285Something Akin to this?
>>1989301Or If Need be I can remake it with Different options/questions depending on Anons opinion.
>>1989301>http://www.strawpoll.me/14191946The third option is kinda what would happen regardless for a while. We are in no position to be fighting anyone right now.Unless it is supposed to mean, build up and attack everyone.
>>1989318Well I was thinking that we give tech support and high-tech support, while building up our forces, so we could open a new front
>>1989301>>1989319>>1989290Come home from work and you fucks are voting to side with the worse of everybody. Wew fucking lads. I'm so glad you kids don't have anything to do productive in the day.
>>1989327>mad for no reasonhuh
>>1989319>>1989323What do you think a better wording of the options would be?I can remake the Poll to support more options for a better consensus.>>1989327My personal Vote is to build up and fight everybody, not to team up with anyone.
>>1989328>Mad for no reasonI guess this magic strawpoll and talking about siding with the NCR is nothing huh?
>>1989338Is fighting everyone something we can realistically do though?
>>1989348It depends on a lot of variables. As of this thread, no it's not.Depends on how much we improve upon everything while we are building up.
>>1989338>Informally Ally with the NCR and start providing material help while building up forces>Formally help the NCR while shifting into war economy>continue to informally help the MLA with material while building up forces for attack on NCR>Formally declare war on NCR and shift into War economy>Maintain Equilibrium with the intent of declaring war on both That's kinda what the thread boils down into>>1989340>some poll that has no effect on the quest and only clears up confusionWow that's really fucking terrible
>>1989338Or you don't encourage the stupidity of people, and let it set because we still won't be ready for war for some time. We need to actually produce enough robots/humans to match whoever we fight. The NCR has both numbers and tech to match us. MLA/Legion has the numbers and bullshit of gods? to use against us. We should be doing what we are, and picking apart the winning side to ensure it stays in a stalement and they drain as much manpower/resources/time as possible and let us build up more.>>1989348Not at all currently.>>1989352>Thinks nobody reads the bullshit talks about 'if only we could get majority to help the NCR win!'Whatever you say senpai.
Tbh keeping your options open has been the modus operandi, if you want to stick to a side now it's best to vote it into action/diplomacy in thread.
>>1989362That vote would need to be open an entire thread or two QM. You have people from across the literal world who posts here and thats a fuck huge choice.
>>1989359I've made my opinion on the situation very clear, but I haven't been unfair to any side of the argument
>>1989362The vote that we made above isn't anything official, like I said, it is just to see where people's minds lie. If we want to continue with an actual official thing, we'll do it in the Diplomacy turn in the thread
>>1989327LmaoWe've heard the arguments from both sides ad nauseum. No need to be a dipshit about it. People are going to vote what they think is right. Besides, it's not like this is an official poll or that we can't change our opinion as quest progresses
>>1989352http://www.strawpoll.me/14192136 Version 2. Better than mine for sure.
>>1989385Sounds pretty good Anon, thanks.Have the only fallout related pic I have
>>1989392Thanks man. Here's this pic I looked up after we had our Power Armor Size discussion over just how big old school power armor is.Not sure how canon it actually is because its modded........ Its the only fallout pic I have on my phone.
>>1989401That's why I liked the Fallout 4 power armor system more. It made me feel like some fucking superhuman
>>1988406>green grassWell it is an idea state. We're a little bit away from presenting the image of perfect nuclear families.Glad you enjoyed though. Hope they provide a bonus.>>1989186We will fight against the MLA...eventually, once we're stronger.First we take down Elijah, then the Legion, then the NCR and MLA at the same time. Also, it's hardly like our dealings with them are super public. As far as anyone knows, we just trade caps for slaves and then free them - hardly a despicable act.
>>1989503Except if Elijah is working with the MLA like we think, then attacking one is attacking the other. And we can't let Elijah live, so the only possibility is going to war with all 3 of them, Elijah, MLA and legion.
>>1989561Ok I missed something. When did we start thinking Elijah is Working with the people?
>>1989591When the mustard gas was used I think
>>1989602Oh that weird red mist shit? Yeah, that was weirdMaybe we could just ask Niner
>>1989617(Some times I will show you battles purely for your meta enjoyment.)How about I say that most of those important details were told to you b the forecaster or one of SPI's drones. If you wish to act upon it.
>>1989633Well time to browse the archives. Wish me luck
Alright, so the map we have of the surrounding area definitely shows the Sierra Madre right next to MLA and Legion territory, so having contact with the two isn't impossible to fathom.
>>1989285>If we were to full stop side with the NCR, it would be impossible to convince people who lived through the war that we didn't.That's because the NCR would be the victor, not us.
>>1989617>>1989633If we're okay saying that we know about some of the details of the battle, asking Niner about Elijah seems like a good idea - will likely have to be next turn though
>>1989797The problem though, is if it is considered "Meta"I suppose just asking anyway is okay
>>1989782I meant MLA there. If we side with the MLA and win, we will never be able to convince all the californians that we meant to liberate them.Oops
>>1989817Oh, well we wouldn't really have to. We give the Californians under us a comfortable life and they're unlikely to revolt in large numbers against us for the sake of their brothers.Then if we've done that and they have kids and the kids also have comfortable lives then the kids won't really care about how their parents tell them "Yeah, they're bad men!"Repeat for a few generations and eventually no one cares, then eventually no one remembers either.
>>1989839I really think you're overestimating the "Bread and Circuses" idea. California is highly nationalistic right now, a strong sense of community, so if we let half their country get raped and murdered, while we tell the other half that we're champions of freedom and liberty, it's not gonna fly too well
>>1989851Luckily killer robots are particularly effective at maintaining domestic order. House knew what he was doing at least.
>>1989851It goes away eventually. Just a matter of time. Not that I'm advocating one way or another but memories CAN be erased for practical purposes.
>>1989874so you want to erase millions of peoples memories for something that could have been avoided?
>>1989886I'm sorry, I thought that I had included-Oh wait, yeah I did. Well let's try this again then.>Not that I'm advocating one way or another
>>1989923So let me get this straight then. You want to be impartial to this argument, so then you say >>1989839 with your argument being "people will forget about their fellow countrymen being raped because they have a home to live in" and I say that doesn't work to well, so you then say "we can just brainwash them"It doesn't seem like you're much arguing for the other side of this issue
>>1989944Ok dude, stuff it back in your pants.We will not side with the NCR because "its the moral thing to do". We will side with them when they are on their knees and begging. We will swoop in and take control of the situation and the NCR when we decide it is time. Until then we keep bleeding all sides while we build up ourselves. Until we are at a point where we can comfortably put up a fight we keep providing high-tech support to the losing side to maintain a stalemate. hats the way it is. Deal with it and stop injecting your moralfaggotry.
>>1989984>moralfaggotryNowhere in the above post have I brought up the morality. I was just talking about how it makes no logical sense for people to forget what happened to their countrymen because they got some luxuries. That's all. If you want to point to my moral faggotry, there are better posts to do it from.Quit being an edgy faggot
>>1989944No, I say ""people will forget about their fellow countrymen being raped because they have a home to live in and most of them won't have directly seen their fellow countrymen get raped either."Then I say "Again, see the above."The point being to demonstrate that the particular argument you're attempting to employ (that people's memories can't be erased) is invalid, regardless of which side I'm actually on.As an aside, I'm of the personal opinion that Clausewitz is right and that the kindest thing you can do with regards to warfare is make sure it is as short-lived as possible, regardless of what means you employ to achieve that goal. So if allying with the MLA against the NCR and then usurping the MLA brings about the end of the war faster then I'm all for it! Same with unleashing the Think Tank on human test subjects. Anything to win, faster.
>>1989984We are going to side with the NCR because its the best choice for us and our future. It means we get rid of Elijah before he stabs us in the back, it gets us access to plenty of resources, while being safer, and in the end, we end up with more citizens.Don't dismiss all arguments you don't like as moral faggotry.
>>1990026The kindest thing is the one with least deaths and human suffering. Or was the great war "kinder" than every war before it? It only lasted a day after all.Siding with the NCR may prolong the war a bit, but it could also speed it up, but in the end, more people are likely around to rebuild after. Or do we not care about the people anymore?
>>1990026But my argument isn't invalid. If we are teaming up with the MLA and Legion, then it makes no sense that the people wouldn't resent us for either, not liberating the rest of the NCR as we are the "kindest", working with the MLA/Legion at all, proclaiming we are the new America and we want freedom and liberty while working with people like the MLA, or a combination of all three. Then you said that we can just "brainwash" them to like us, unless you were being metaphorical about that.And with the point being that the quicker the war, the less suffering, we can only achieve that if ONLY we attacked the NCR because we can be not only the quickest, but the most humane.
>>1990033How do you see us gaining shit and not Yaunker taking us over?? Assuming we join him now and win, he will be hailed as the badass who saved everyone while we will be relegated to a client state and slowly eaten since we could never run against a man like that. On the other hand, if we bleed every faction and bide our time we can swoop in and take control of everything ourselves. Seems mighty more useful to me. The only question here would be the BoS and their actions.Besides, if Elijah decides to attack there is nobody who can really give him a fight right now. Nobody is prepared for a conflict in the cloud. We might as well shelve him until we can splurge the resources (since we can track the cloud we know how far along he is).>>1990006I admit the post itself is sub-par for the argument but it was not directed at the post but you.
>>1990047>>1990052You two need to realize we will never openly take part in conflict when we are still this small. We will use subterfuge and black ops to take targets of value and keep our involvement plausibly deniable. Meaning even if Yaunker knows we are stabbing him the people will cheer when we show up to save the day against the MLA/Legion once we have bled all sides enough that we are a major player.
>>1990047The Great War is ongoing, in case you haven't noticed neither government submitted to the other. That's the problem, it's still in the destructive phase, we're fighting the end it and get into the constructive phase.>>1990052>Ally with MLA/Legion>Trounce NCR>Subsequently trounce the MLA/Legion, because they're weaker than the NCR>Institute our state>The people see that we were the expert rusemen>All's good, man.I fail to see the problem here.
>>1990090This post was so baffling it was hard for me to respond....So you want to ally with the MLA, let the NCR lose, then turn immediately around and back stab our "allies", take over California, hope that the above mentioned rape and murder doesn't take place, and then hopefully our people don't think that we're snakes because we worked with someone and immediately stabbed them in the back?
I'd point out this is a massive waste of time, resources and effort over something we've yet to reach the point of deciding.How about, for now, we just focus on doing shit that actually matters? For example asking questions of our various NPC allies to get a feeling for how strong we are, where we could improve most easily and so on.Also we need to update our securitron forces to the MK 6 which will double their effectiveness, expand our housing and possibly start sending stuff to Montana.
>>1990090The great war ended in 1 day with everyone dead.Just because no one signed a peace deal doesn't mean the war didn't end.>People see we are a ruseman>a ruseman who got them enslaved and raped>reject us>civil war>Everyone is dead>>1990088If we don't actually engage in open combat, and claiming territory we won't get anything.And even if we operate in the shadows, Both sides are going to still know we are attacking them. And they will tell everyone, so we won't be greated with open arms when we liberate the NCR in your scenario because EVERYONE KNOWS ITS OUR FAULT.
>>1990127There's something I can agree on. We should call a council of our generals and scientists and talk about our war preparedness. We then can make a sort of "5 year plan" so we don't waste hours talking ourselves into circles.I for one am done debating until we get some actual work done so we can see what our capabilities are
>>1990112No no, I want to>Ally with the MLA>Let the NCR lose>Backstab our allies at earliest opportunity that offers a reasonable opportunity of succeeding in taking them over>I don't care if the rape and murder takes place>Our people will get over it, especially seeing as we're freeing folks from rapists and murderers>>1990130>The Great War ended in 1 day with everyone dead.Right, that's why there are all these people around. And the Enclave, and whatever the Chinese Shadow Government is that surely carries on.>People see we are a ruseman>a ruseman who saved them from those who enslaved and raped them as soon as they could*>thank us*>Everyone is glad*
>>1990144I mean, alternatively we can side with the folks who are performing a genocide on tribals I guess. Whatever people think is more morally acceptable. One of these is definitely easier to justify backstabbing to our citizens though, while neither is morally acceptable in my personal view.
>>1990144People who were raped and enslaed don't really forgive the person who got them raped and enslaved.They will know we are involved with the MLA and Legion, they will never accept us, It is a dumb plan.>Right, that's why there are all these people around. And the Enclave, and whatever the Chinese Shadow Government is that surely carries on.Are you intentionally thick? The great war is over. Everyone lost. Everything going on is different shit. Enclave isn't part of the great war or the shadow government.We still got them raped and they know it.No one will be glad.
>>1990167>Allow me to repeat what I'm saying even though the other anon keeps explaining why I'm wrong.The shadow government is literally the continuation of the US Gov. They may've changed a bit from when they originated 200 years ago, but then again if the US were still around as a state it would've changed over 200 years too.As an aside, yeah that's the problem I mentioned. Nobody WON. I guess I should've included that bit that I thought was obvious there, you want to shorten the war and WIN too. It does no good to shorten the war if you lose, though I would like to point out that a shorter war where you lose is still (excepting the special case you're mentioning, which is a straw man anyway) better for all involved parties.
>>1990190http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Warliterally 1 day. So you think it's kinder to turn the rest of the entire continent to glass than conquering territory with our non-human robot army?I don't think you understand the word kindness.
>>1990208I don't think you understand the rules of argument or you didn't read the latter part of that post you responded to. Either way seeing as you keep strawmanning we'll call it even I guess.
>>1990260shorter wars are not best for everybody. Wars with less casualties are better for everybody. How is one year with a million deaths kinder than 2 years with half a million total?
>>1990208It should be noted that the "great war" you are linking to was proceed by a series of non-nuclear engagements like the invasion of China or the invasion of Alaska / Canada.>>1990342>How is one year with a million deaths kinder than 2 years with half a million total?Depends, is that including death to starvation and such caused by the war isolating civilian populations? Because shorter wars generally avoid such losses.That also fails to account for damage to industry, infrastructure, number of cripples created (they didn't die but still suffer) and so on.Fact: a short war will result in less harm because there is less time for harm to occur and recovery can happen sooner.
>>1990342Less damage to infrastructure, less expenditure on military arms and armaments and other associated expenditures that do nothing to benefit the members of the state except prevent them from being conquered by another state. A quicker change into 'the way things will be from here-on-out' for people to get used to. The conquering state gains control of the conquered state's resources faster, allowing them quicker capitalization of such, and the conquered state is less likely to resort to desperate measures that would cause more suffering for all involved.I could go on, but it's not like there's a point to it.
>>1990342Here's a counterpoint: How is a 40 year Cold War where both sides commit exorbitant percentages of their national budgets to military development to the exclusion of development that would directly benefit their citizens (causing massive social unrest requiring military force to be utilized to put down protests, causing some citizens to be injured or killed. Not to mention an increase in crime because public needs can't be met with the reduced national budget, and etc.) BUT no casualties are incurred in fighting...BETTER than a quick 1 year war with 100,000 casualties that allows all groups to move on productively afterwards?Yes, you feel how flimsy and contrived that question is? That's exactly what you've been doing. How does it feel?
>>1990397Those were the resource wars, which encompasses a large amount of other wars, finalizing with the great war, which was over in 1 day.And yes, Im including civilian casualties of all colours. Death is death.A longer war with with less collateral and infrastructure damage is better than a shorter one where everything is turned to rubble.>>1990398Length of time does not dictate infrastructure damage. We fight with much finesse, over a long period of time. Especially if rushing the war involves scorched earth- No body wins when the land is uninhabitable and all infrastructure is destroyed.
>>1990450Duration of Conflict, in every single real world example, is directly correlated to the extent of infrastructure damage. Length of time literally does dictate infrastructure damage. Or do you think that armies don't conglomerate around strategically important infrastructure positions?Not to mention all the plans we have about, oh, what was it now? Right, deploying blackops/specops teams to destroy the NCR's /infrastructure/ in order to cripple their war effort.
>>1990440So now you're inventing random edge cases?What about if you have a longer war in which there were steps taken so at the end you were better equiped to integrate and make use of conquered people, vs blowing up cities so when the war is over you are lord of a population that hates you and would likely rebel in 5-10 years as you desperately try to keep them down?Or you rush into a war and cease a phyric victory where half of your forces are dead, verses a careful approach that leaves you with 75%The question is just about numbers- Is a war that ends quicker, but leaves a higher body count kinder than one that kills less over a shorter period?
>>1990467No, the larges factor in infrastructure damage is tactics used- carpet bombing everything leaves a fuck ton more infrastructure destroyed than planning and executing ambushes on the enemy force, pulling of encirclements, etc.
>>1990491First of all you fucked up your last sentence.Second of all there's no point in continuing this conversation
>>1990511I must agree, this conversation is pointless when we are arguing entirely theoretical wars of his construction.
Also, I have an idea that I was going to suggest a long time ago but feel is worth bringing up now. Since we have developed the technology needed for (kinetic) shields that can block all conventional weapons the NCR fields, ignoring the occasional laser / plasma weapon or flamethrower, we should outfit all of our Bastion models with them.However my idea is specifically designing their shields in such a manner as to have them form a "phalanx" each overlapping and reinforcing the others when they near each other. So a battle-line of Bastion's would become a solid wall to our enemies and potentially immune to artillery fire as well depending on how large of a shield we can manage and if they can be curved over them. Which would allow them to shield other units too.Only problem I can see would be if the shields aren't one-way blocking but that is something to deal with when we've got it working. Even if we can only block or attack it would be useful against overwhelming firepower or to protect a valuable asset.A good idea would be to equip our tunnellers with a shield so that when they surface they can protect themselves from attack while they discharge their cargo and burrow.One more idea would be to outfit our Assaultrons with these on one arm to block fire while they charge into the fray or some sort of weaker version of the thing we currently have on our scout-ship. So that a group of assaultrons (a murder?) would, by cumulative effect, achieve immunity to all conventional weapons, radar and visual detection to some degree.Main point is, shields are useful as hell to make our army immune to anything that the NCR currently fields and that we will face from most of our enemies for the most part. Which would render conventional battles far easier but admittedly doesn't solve our fundamental lack of capacity to construct such things. Although we are working to resolve that too.
>>1989860OP are you going to post more on the weekend?
>>1991245Considering the big replicator would allow us to print whatever, how complex the thing is plays no role in the speed. Meaning we can make a super-advanced tankitron mkIX in around the same time as a securitron mk I and they both take around the same amount of rocks to make. Instant win and no penalty for fancy advanced shit(up to and including nanoscale structures for remarkably higher durability of materials and so on).
>>1992859True but I was referring to our complete lack of fabrication capacity as of this moment in time and us attempting to resolve it via application of mass replication.
>>1993581Considering the huge reactor and big replicator (even without booning it up) we should be able to print out a considerable amount of expensive-to-manufacture bots in a very short timespan. We probably cant rely on it 100% but we can certainly use it to great advantage in making expensive/intricate tech.As to the shields, as Dr. 0 mentioned, he could combine the two shields to make it essentially resistant to everything. Couple this with a bubble shield and we can make our own droidekas. Any problems with long construction times would be negated by the replicators. We can now make advanced designs in the same time as regular ones and for around the same material cost. Very nifty.
>>1993585True, now we just need to harvest all the resources in the divide like that massive lake of radioactive material (and the damaged nuclear reactor at it's centre) to construct a fuck ton of generator systems and replicators.
>>1993606Also, the mantle disintegrator/tractor beam combo to suck matter straight from the planets crust and into the replicators under BigMT. The other powers dont even know what we have cooking in the basement.... moonshine
>>1988087You call in the NCR, who send in their trucks again to pick up the volunteers, dropping off truckloads of caps again. Despite your city being a virtual paradise, none of the soldiers wish to stay. Even after the stark contrast of an MLA slave camp. Weather out of fear, a sense of patriotism, a family back home, you're unsure. Whatever it is, the NCR are ensuring not one of their soldiers choose to join.--->>1988087>Construction 1 -Finish FEV lab (e.g specimen pens + hidden testing facility)The surface facility is completed per the SINK Sink's specifications, approved by the ZAX, and tolerated by the Think Tank. Publicly you are calling it the "Pheonix Commonwealth Research Institute of Infectious Diseases" (PCRIID) whose purpose is to "protect the populace against virulent threats". With numerous counter measures including anti-toxins, emergency hallway incinerators, automated bulkhead doors and negative pressure ventilation, its "literally 1000% safer than the previousZ-43 innovative toxins plant." The explanation of the installed and expansive prisoner holding cells are "in the eventually planning of quarantine on the possibility of facing enemy biological weapons".Most of the people shrug and believe it, a big laboratory to make cures and a big secure prison to hold infected people until they can be cured. Most of the smart people like Arcade, Delilah, and a few others quietly, discuss the potential of this being a (somewhat obvious) ruse.>Klein"Hmph. It was easier when we didn't have a huge population living nearby. Countermeasures and failsafes. . .what a waste of time.">SINK Sink"I dare say good Doctor, after the hassle that was cleaning up the last Toxin Plant, this is a much better alternative!"---The facility is able to hold 500 live prisoners (comfortably), plus 200 in cryostorage but can be expanded further.The surface facility is primarily a lower hazard class brewery for biological agents and research necessary in light of FEV production, but does not handle FEV production itself. About two more actions will construct the Hidden Testing Facility to handle actual FEV research, and will include automated defense counter measures.Meanwhile, Dr Klein continues to pre-select people he deems appropriate for his staff.--->ALERTRufus, the cyberdog scientists, requests to have a new cloned body, after being stuck in a cyberdog for so long. Now that its possible to return However, in the case of Cyberdog to Human Clone this has never been tested before. Even with your amazing skill, it could kill him. If the clone at all is even possible.CHOOSE>Convince Rufus to stay in his body, he's one of our best robot researchers and we can't lost him>If he really thinks this is what he wants, we'll support him.>"There may be better technology for this in the future" tell him to wait a bit longer for research to continue>other?>Other?
>>1993611>Convince Rufus to stay in his body, he's one of our best robot researchers and we can't lost him>Other?What if we used the robotic limbs we got from the BOS to alter his current cyberdog body into a "human"-ish shape. Two robotic legs and two robotic arms in place of his current limbs.
>>1993611>"There may be better technology for this in the future" tell him to wait a bit longer for research to continueWho is Rufus?
>>1993619A human researcher from the pre-war days in a cyberdog body.
>>1993611>>"There may be better technology for this in the future" tell him to wait a bit longer for research to continue
>>1993611Is it a human brain or a dog brain? If human there shoud be no problem, if dog we can try it out with some cloned mutts first, iron out the kinks.>>1993614Also, excellent idea. We can shelve the idea for now and give him the means to be human until then (replace the paws with arms and move around the squishy bits to form a human-like torso. We could even just make him a brain in a jar and build a specific body for him. He could sketch one up and have it ordered via replicator himself anyway. Why has he not done that, actually?
>>1993630>Why has he not done that, actually?It's hard to use the design tools with paws? Dunno. That is a very good question.
>>1993633If he can design bots for us he can make one for himself as well. Also, are you sure its a human brain?
>>1993633>>1993630He's a robotics expert, not a neurosurgeon.
>>1993639His body is mostly robot bits anyway, meaning the signal pathways are computer binary anyway. To exchange those parts should not be that big of a problem. Also, can we not just jar him like any other brain and then stick a body to that via tesla coil/portal? Or is this what he is asking for? And if so, why is it so exceedingly dangerous?Also, nice to have you back QM. How long are you running?
>>1993640You've never tested if the Tesla Coil system works on a dog's brain, and his brain isn't even fully dog. He himself is the product of splicing with a dog and a machine, a freak accident that went lucky. It is unknown what will happen if you graft his brain stem onto a human clone. In the first place, using his own DNA to clone a body would be safest but since his DNA is a mix of human and dog who knows what will happen.
>>1993651>Get a second opinion from Diana.
>>1993651So hes a dog? Gotcha. How about we give him robot bits and hold off with the coning until the FEV lab is up and we can do some testing with random dogs.
>>1993657"I was not prepared to deal with this sort of ailment. My efforts are geared at preventing mutation. . .not curing it. Hmmm, I will ponder this." well thats not exactly helpful either.
>>1993661Would he accept my robotic limb solution as a temporary fix while we make sure it is safe?
>>1993664>Rufus"I already have robotic tools. I want my human body back."
>>1993670"Would you accept a holographic human form?"
Qm have we explained how/why this is so dangerous to Rufus?
>>1993670So he can walk and talk like a human but just wants fleshy bits? Wait until the FEV labs are running and we can test it. We dont need him dying on the job and if he has waited this long he can wait a few more months to make sure everything goes as planned.
>>1988087>>Construction 2>Build more homes for the new slaves, while also expanding our current sewers, food distribution centers, school and Follower Hospital.With top of the line robotic engineering, combined with expert and enthusiasm, the robot and human elements of the Corps of Engineering begin the mass production of a new series of houses and homes. Working almost in an assembly line, decreasing time and cost, they pour and labour on a hundred hexcrete homes simultaneously. All designed to fit not only the style, but the strategy, that these homes should be fortified in a time of war and offer some protection. A move which is neither unfamiliar, nor unwelcome, among many who are glad for the extra protection that meshes wonderfully with style.But the best part about it, is its there's.For the most part the focus is on the housing and integrating the necessary ammenities, sewage, plumbing, electricity and more. Replicators are built in each home, and furniture is mass produced in the forges and factories. The ASA has been a major help in organizing the development of our own brand of luxury home appliances, working with what technology and talent are available, as your society slowly catches up to the NCR in terms of manufactured and refined goods. Things will increase even more so when the Universal replicator is built.The Housing problem is solved at least. In record breaking time, as what took months before now just takes A month.
>>1993677He knows the danger, I'm waiting to see if you guys want to support or suggest he wait/accept being nonhuman.>>1993679He is functional enough that having a cybernetic skeleton or something defeats the purpose of wanting a human body. He has tools, drones, and more to manipulate machinery for him.
>>1993705If hes aware of the danger, ill support his choice to try and restore his body. If that doesn't reach consensus, then ill default to asking him to wait until it becomes safer.
>>1993705Ask him to wait until it becomes safer but offer to give him a day off every weak in a custom built VR pod to spend time as a human if we can do that and he'd accept.
>>1993705Wait for the FEV lab and the prolimenary experiments. Does he WANT to be a potato if this goes wrong? If not, hell just wait a few turns. Then hell get it.
>>1993611>Make a clone of his current DNA and brain, test it out to see if a body will be compatible.>if so do the transfer with his real brain.>if not tell him to wait abit longerAlso tell the NCR, they've defeat the caps in trade and we need REAL currency now of what they use.
>>1993803Can't really test with a cloned (human / sentient) brain since they come out shit with our tech.
>>1993811I smell clone commando research incoming... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omfksiCQK5E
>>1993820Why have clone commando's when you can have mechanical terminators?Fact is that we are approaching the point whereby the abilities of robotics eclipse any biological system we could reasonably create. In between the advances in terms of computing power, firepower, armour and so on.
>>1993836Clone commandos are cool.Ultimately though it depends on what were facing. While robot terminators are better in almost every way, if we face someone who is particularly good at anti robotics combat we may need an alternative solution.
>>1993836Going by lore, none of the machines we have can do that with a mobile chassis. The smart mobile ones have a brain. When we can make droids as smart as people I fully support the idea. However, we are far off with that and we can already clone bodies. Just find 4 of our best black-ops people, clone them a couple dozen bodies with implanted explosives and start training for a commando squad. They will be useful later on when we have droids commandos as well, since we can port the battle XP over to the bots. And besides, Republic Commandos are fucking rad as hell. Might as well make a few. Theyll come in handy.
>>1993849A strong enough EMP fucks up humans. Robots work great
>>1993852Wat? You mean the other way around?
>>1993852My point being having multiple fall back options is a good idea.If robot terminators dont work, switch to option B, if option B doesn't work switch to option C, and so on.
>>1988087>Civ >Restore Dr Mobius and organise our researchers into specific teams based on their skills / personality - each with a team leadDr Klein begins reorganizing his own personal groups of researchers along with the rest of the Think Tank, picking people he believes will be very compliant and competent to the tasks ahead.Meanwhile, you yourself head to the FORBIDDEN ZONE. Greeting your Brain, you go to see Dr Mobius.And yet, you cannot find him."James Bond where is Dr. Mobius?James Bond, report. . .">Brain"That's peculiar. A mechanical failure?"Suddenly large bright screens >Dr Mobius"This is a recorded message. You won't find me in the Forbidden zone, Courier. Nor will availing James Bond to search for me."Where did his speech aphasia go?"I am no longer in the Forbidden Zone, or in BigMT.Since the time you arrived to BigMT, my 'plan 9' was already coming to effect. I had realized there may come a time when one of such caliber would pierce the Forbidden Zone, and by that time my mind might have degraded by that point I would need to restore it. I have been observing you Courier, though my mind itself was muddied and beffudled, my subroutines were recording through your James Bond. When the Think Tank transferred you access to BigMT's computer codes that you integrated to, they failed to transfer mine that I had overridden theirs ages ago.With the research you provided, my subroutines were able to find a means to restore my mind as I was the major neuroscientist of BigMT and only I had this capability. And I reviewed what I had seen. You have done a lot of good, not just for BigMT and the Think Tank, but for your people and your family. Things I wouldn't have imagined.But you've also done things I am unable to condone. These. . .callous surgical experiments. Brutalizing Diana and forcing her to love you, the inhuman treatment of those prisoners you surgically experimented on, expanding your prison cells with plans for even more viral tests, recruiting the rest of the Think Tank and scientists to these causes. I know you have your reasons. America had its reasons too, and I'm not unfamiliar. We had our prison camps, our unethical experiments. At the time I thought that if we did them and won the war our actions would be justified. But we did not even win the war, and all that was left was our Big Empty, with minds slowly degraded until they saw the whole world as a Petri Dish. I was ashamed. I will not judge you for your reasons, surrounded by greater monsters, threats, an age of terror. Perhaps it is illogical for me to think that the America of Today would act differently than the America of the past in the face of annihilation. But I do not wish to be a part of this any more. You have kept the Think Tank from annihilating the world and for that I thank you, but I must decline your offer to integrate me into your society.Maybe one day, I will return. "
>>1993881DamnIt was good while it lasted Mobius
>>1993881Oh fucking boy the one actual Think tank that can fuck us has gone away. And our Brain never noticed and Bond is running subroutines of other people.
>>1993881Fucking cunt. When was this recorded? When did we last speak to him? How did he gtfo without us knowing? If he just floated away we should have seen it and he wouldnt have lasted long outside. If it is something more we must have seen the resource dain. Why the fuck is the ZAX blind to this shit? Did he leave any way to contact him? Anything of interest?I swear these cunts. Ok, Klein gets his office and Mobius gets gets a stern talking.
>>1993881I am sad now. Mobius was my favorite.
>>1993901>>1993896>You[Computers, explain yourself. How did none of you see this coming?]>Zax(Rig'D) "uhhh">Zax(CEO) "Don't look at me I was busy with construction projects">Zax(Major) "I was preoccupied with patrolling our territories">Zax(SPI) "Hey, James Bond is responsible for Internnal Security I was spying on the NCR and MLA!">James Bond "I'm sorry Mr. Executor. When you integrated me into BigMT's computer systems, Doctor Mobius must have already implanted the program and by creating me within the system, I would have been made unawares of it. Attacks or alterations from outside or within I can find, but something that was already a part of me would have been able to hide.It would seem Dr. Mobius was also able to escape my vision by sending his brain through the Brain tubes, where I do not have cameras. Where the tubes went I cannot say, but its possible they lead to a teleportation station."
>>1993919Qm is there a possibility that we can convince him to work with us if we ever see him again? Or is he gone forever
>>1993919WHEN was this logged? When was the message recorded? When was he last seen? And if there was a teleporter, when was the power fluctuation noted and why were we not informed? For fuck sake, surrounded by imbeciles.Moving forward, slave any and all processes, computers and assets directly to our brain. Executor override on everything. Remote shutdown, detonation and signaling. Also, Give Bond the highest access. Any and every system and computer. Every last little gate or hatch, brain tube or rat nest. Everything. And the only authority Bond anwsers to is us/our Brain.Jesus. Fucking cunts. This Oddball shit all over again.
>>1993919Whelp time to have two spy programs working aganinst each other to ensure nobody can just slip fucking by like this again.The real question is what else did he take and what else is missing>>1993950>Give Bond, the person who failed us and is stated to have subroutines running in him, the highest access.uh
>>1993956The reason he didnt catch this is Mobius having an override function. We obviously scour the fucking computerbanks for anything else stupid and clean it top to bottom. Then we put Bond on the top ledge when it comes to overwatch.However, making an AI that takes care of any hacking attempts and unauthorized access tries is a good idea. Someone that alerts our Brain whenever something fishy is going down so it can override the shit out of it. Really pisses me off this Oddball shit.
>>1993956>James Bond"Scans of the Forbidden Zone reveal nothing was taken, and I'm sending a probe through the Brain Tubes."---At the end of one of the Brain Tubes they find a previously unknown room with an Auto-Doc and a few spare Robot Bodies. One of which is missing. However, the hidden exits and entries to this room DO have Camera's on the otherside, but none of them show him exiting and your Brain would have seen it too with his Camera eyes.It was unlikely that the footage was tampered with from the Forbidden Zone or this room. It was like he entered the room and then just vanished. *poof*. Just like that. Very strange.>>1993950The Message appears to have been recorded yesterday, which is when your Brain saw him last, doing his normal thing of muttering equations and writing. Camera's show Mobius body accessing a Think Tank brain Auto-Doc and not coming out. Think Tank brains sometimes spend several hours undergoing basic maintenance to themselves and the machines inside. In this case, it was revealed the Auto-Doc activated a program called "Maintenance Plan 9" which did not detect as abnormal on electronic superveilance.
>>1993984Could the room itself be an advanced teleporter?
>>1993984What else does this Plan 9 entail? Any record of it in the archives? When was it written and what do we know of the doctors metal state at the time? Are there any more such programs of his? From the other docs? Also, what do the others know about the room/plan? Any secret place the doc would go? Can we somehow detect if a teleporter was used? Any power drain around the time? When did he become "sane" again?
>>1994008That should be "mental state".
>>1993881Hahaha all our immoral fuckups come home to roost in one fell swoop. Fucking Hilarious.Its obvious he had a single use teleportation constructed.worst case he went to Sierra Madre.
>>1994008James Bond cannot access Plan 9, after correctly deducing it was put in place for him not to be able to access it. The other ZAX's, with hard work, manage to pry it apart.It was a program designed to allocate resources designed to cure Dr. Mobius insanity and restore his memories, all in one go. It would be activated when the archives detected there was sufficiently advanced scientific knowledge to allow this, which was triggered by your advances in Neuroscience beyond the capabilities of the Old World. From there, the Auto Doc activated its usual ping to tell Dr. Mobius to come into it for maintenance, and then restored him and his memories. It shunted him down the tube, where the Auto-Doc below records placing a brain into a robot body. The Camera on the Auto-Doc shows the robot body floating, followed by a bright flash. However there is no sound of a door opening and there are none of our teleporter in the room. BigMT's teleportation tower does not record activation either, obviously he would have just ended up appearing back on the Tower.The ZAX scour BigMT's computer systems, but apart from Plan 9 they also find other unused Dr Mobius overrides such as Self-Destruct. These have no automatic activation protocols They necessitate the Think Tank be present in all six members (bar any certified death certificates) and deemed competent by the Auto-Doc before activation, so its not something he could have done alone. It seemed intended only for the full Think Tank's use.Interestingly, it has been touched as of yesterday too. Added to the roster of the Five Think Tanks, your name is added to the list of people who need to unanimously vote to activate it. It'd need your permission to activate it.These two programs are all the ZAX's were able to find, and are "100% sure that the system is clean now" since the rest of the Think Tankers provided you their codes and programs already. He was the only one who didn't.
>>1994034Hes just being a bleedin pansy. Honestly, I see him exiling himself in some cave and doing goody-doody science for bumfuck locals to heal his ailing morality. If he really cared about doing the right thing, he wouldnt have run away.
>>1994045Do we know if the EM effect is consistant with BigMT teleporter tech (is the flash similar to ours when we hop around)?Also, touch up the system so we ourselves hold the self destruct. If mobius can rewrite it with only one credential (if he didnt switch us for him) we have to have the absolute last say. Also, is there a way for us to monitor teleporting events (via a radio sensor maybe)? Maybe see if we cant find a way to identify those and then scan for them in the future (a drone with the sensors to identify teleporting signatures)?
>>1994065Yes, it looks similar and has a similar frequency and sound. You can rewrite it to make it only yourself if you wish. Its open to you now.Your computers say it would be difficult to intercept your specific form of teleportation as it creates a rift in the space time continuum. They could try to create a device that detects such rifts with research.
>>1994045I kind of want to ask Arcade what his thoughts are. He and the Sane Mobius seem to be similar in thought.
>>1994070Do it. Also, do our braniacs think this would be prudent? Would Mobius rather sit tight or use teleporters often? If he is probable to lay low there is no use in making it right now unless it could cover hundreds of miles from a single tower in BigMT.>>1994072Presumably dissapointed that the doctor didnt want to change wrongs but runs away instead.
>>1994070Can we look at the other robot bodies down in there? See if they've got integrated teleporter units?Have we popped back to the Big MT satellite in the Mojave, to check and see if there's evidence he just utilized the old system?It's entirely possible that Mobius had planned for this and had a secret teleporter-receiver that he could activate remotely somewhere, but there's also a chance that he's just making clever use of existing resources that fly under the radar.
>>1994094All good points. Follow up on this shit.
>>1994094No teleporters in the robot bodies, but there is a bunch of teleporter device batteries on the nearby table and some scratched ancient dust marks indicating something was removed from it.>>1988087>>ZAX>Improved automated supply chain (robots + vertibirds) for Divide scavengingThe ZAX Ceo works with Klein and Jacob Miles on improving the output and efficiency of steel collection in the Divide, a task especially well suited for them.The first thing he does is finish up the C0NSTRUCT0R, an excellent basis to improve scrap output. It gathers scrap through its big steel jaws, ripping it from buildings and large vehicles, and melting and compressing it into large blocks of metal for the Veribirds to pick up and store.In addition, he produces a number of Loader Bots, Repair Drones, and an assortment of all the other robot blueprints you have built, adding a small contigent of more robots to efforts in the Divide, further improving passive steel output which continues to grow.--->ZAX(CEO)"I particularly enjoy this task. It's so riveting.">ZAX(RND)"Any chance I can convince you to play min-">ZAX(CEO)"Good god no!. . .do you have any idea how addicting that was? Make real life your 'grind'! These Augmented Engineering Corps certainly know it!"He is right, the Engineer Corps greatly enjoy their task as almost a form of entertainment. You've never seen such hard working people.>Soldier"After we clear out this pile, I'm going to clear out that entire building right over there. It'll be great.">Soldier"Building, digging, scavenging. Ain't nothing like it."
>>1994105Of course, while I think it's prudent to develop a teleportation-detection system and apply it around Big MT and any other outposts I don't think it's necessarily the best thing to actively pursue Mobius in any fashion.I think that he'll go out and wander the wasteland for a while, see how awful everyone/everything around us is, and then he'll see we were right and come back with renewed enthusiasm.
>>1994203To note, a lot of the Augments have been taking on more Augments after you unlocked Cyborg Technology, of their own accord. They want to be faster, smarter, harder, better.
>>1994211As long as they dont go full mechadendrites and servoskulls its ok. Just keep the human aesthetic. Its more about using your mind than your body. We can always make machines for that that are far better at given tasks.Also, is the additcion healthy or obsessive-compulsive?
>>1994231Well they aren't working themselves to death, eat healthily, and get enough rest, but admittedly a lot of them, especially the single persons without family ties, are workaholics.No deliterious effects are noted. They just tend to not use prostitutes or other forms of entertainment as much. Work IS the entertainment.Dr. Klein loves it, says he wishes they had this back in the old days. Would have made fine workers and enthusiastic soldiers. Communist fervor has nothing to a little Freedom mental programming.
>>1994245And right he is!We should look to encourage family ties then but seems ok to me. Moving on then...
>>1994245We should really ensure they have children before they go out and die. A family makes ya fight harder after all!
>>1994080What could he have done? If he spoke up im sure you would say something along the lines of "fuck off". This is a wake up call. We have to be better people. No more human experimentation.
>>1994295Stick it back in your pants. We are the best people. And we do some distasteful things to make sure we keep being the best people, because a situation where we have to sacrifice our people to keep them free (frontline soldiers) is bad, as is having to wonder whether or not you get to eat tonight because the economy is tanking, some asshole invaded or a disease is spreading. We provide citizens so many liberties and opportunities its unreal. And we are somehow the bad guys? Come off your high horse. If it wasnt for the things we have done we would be nowhere. A pacifist nobody running letters from state to state while people die for unworthy causes under despots and madmen. WE are the way forward. And to keep moving forward we make sacrifices so the people can live a good and peaceful life.If you actually take a step back and reflect on things, we are, outside fringe communities unable to survive any real outside force, the best people out there. Certainly the most liberal and nurturing. And its not as if we make killing people the saturday experience. We do what we must so we can forge a better tomorrow. Something you should come to terms with.
>>1994295As do "wat do", suggest less harmful ways to achieve our goals. Steer the direction of research, aid in it so we dont need 500 test subjects but only 200. Thats 300 saved.He could have done huge things but he decided to run and hide, not face the world and start to change it.
>>1994295>This is a wake up call. We have to be better people. No more human experimentationSo how do you plan on fixing the ghouls, and super mutants in our population? How are we gonna improve our soldiers with cybernetics? How are we gonna get more Zax's?
>>1994320Mobius knows that. Doesnt stop him from running off. You just saw a consequence of immorality. Not everyone agrees with the ends justify the means. If you want to avoid losing more people, we need to change. Be better, not double down on the behavior which lost us an asset better than all the think tank combined.
>>1994331Take slower, animal experimentation methods. Speed for immortals is not really an issue. We dont have to rush to open unit 731>>1994327Except that is still 200 people experimented on. Were so set on human experimentation jump at experimenting on 1000 humans if the tech finishes 1 day earlier.
>>1994345>Take slower, animal experimentation methodsYou need PURE humans for FEV tests that would cure ghouls and Super mutants mate. Animal tests aren't a thing.
>>1994334How would you go about it then? And what would you change? Would you not have chipped our BIOAI, leaving it firmly in the hands of the BoS? Would you not have harvested brains from the Legion, leaving us without a ZAX? Would you not have built the FEV labs, leaving literally millions affected by the virus, some horribly mutated?Face it. We have done nothing wrong that didnt need to be done. All these sacrifices were for the greater good. And even though I dislike the Tau, this point they have right. We hold our citizns above all else and allow free admission to anyone interested. How could we possibly be better without gimpng ourselves to oblivion and becoming the bitch of Oddball after Yaunker eats us up??Also this >>1994331
>>1994295>>1994334I must completely disagree. Fact is that our immoral practices have gotten us large benefits in many areas of research and are essentially the only way of pushing forward with research into FEV. However, if we can do things morally with minimal cost, I agree to endeavour towards that goal.>>1994350Essentially this. At best we could use cloning of humans pure or otherwise to get the basics right but at the end of the day we will eventually need to use actual humans for some levels of testing since clones ain't sentient but could be sustained using medical machines while we get shit like healing, stronger muscles and so on sorted.
>>1994358Side note - If we manage to get to the Capitol Wasteland without the Hero Fucking up our shit, we can Investigate the Gary Vault which may help us on a breakthrough in granting clones Sentience.
>>1994355Disconnect diana from her holgrams and such, install someone to take her place and use non mind rape methods to convince her we mean best.>>1994350Do we? Or does klein say we do?A fuck ton of science gets done with animal testing. Biology is biology, and dna of chimps is quite similiar to dna of humans. Get a lions share of the work done on animals, then use volunteer testing to sort out the fine details.Like every medical technilogy today.>>1994358Immoral practices got us this stuff quicker. We could still have gotten it evebtually without it. And we would have dr mobius on side, which is a massive help.
>>1994334There aren't really many people left to lose, and the system is sort of just self-correcting itself when the folks who disagree with our methods leave.They're not going to find anyone better out there, so they'll either come back to us eventually or they'll try to form their own government. If the former then great, if the latter then also great, but I have my doubts they've got the stomach to actually make hard decisions.
>>1994366Agreed. Even the limited sentience they have would be a step forward but the Institute have managed to perfect that sort of study.Although there are no recorded cases of synths being exposed to FEV, so who knows if that would work...
>>1994370>Immoral practices got us this stuff quicker. We could still have gotten it evebtually without it. And we would have dr mobius on side, which is a massive help.Nope, all of our neurological studies would've taken years without the human testing which would mean we wouldn't have gotten ANY of the think tank. Effectively we've actually gained.This is before mentioning the miniature communication portals, our complete bank of cures for pre-war diseases, two ZAX's or the fact that we wouldn't have gotten the previously insane think-tank's aid since we gave them a Legion prisoner and shit.
>>1994320you could stand to be a bit less insulting.seriously. Wanting to ensure basic human rights dont get sacrificed on the altar of SCIENCE isnt a bad idea.In fact a set of guidelines for ethical experimentation would be a really good idea. Because as things stand we are on track to wind up worse than the NCR.Just because human experiments are marginally faster than our other options doesnt mean they should be encouraged.I work in a lab doing PCR and genetics.There is literally NOTHING you can do to a human that cant just as easily be done to a primate.its less than a 2% genetic diverge in many cases.we also have the DNA for pure strain primates via the nursery. IF cloning remains an issue we can clone breeding mothers and induce pregnancy artificially for a naturally born, rad free, FEV free primate.problem solved.
>>1994386See.Human testing is just something the QM is forcing on us to add moral weight, when it is completely unnecesary.
>>1994370You are missing the point. We COULD remove the chip but that still leaves the action of chipping her a necessity. You willfully ignore that the only reason we have her is the distasteful thing we did to her and the reavers. Again, we do what we must not because it is "fun" but because it is the right thing to do in the big scale of things.As to animal testing, there is a reason all drug test are conducted in thousands of humans over many years: animals and humans are different. For example, an anti cancer drug that showed near 100% effectiveness in mice induced cytokine storms and death in humans in doses 1/100 of the mices. You CAN do a part of it in animals, and we intend to do every bit we realistically can, but eventually human trials are neccesssary. And if we have to kill 200 instead of mutilating 500 the choice is clear.Mobius is not some be-all solution. He may be smart, smarter even than any other Think Tank member but he is not omnipotent. If he diced to come back, great. If not, we have many other interested in the task.Also this >>1994371
>>1994384>miniature communication portalsno human testing needed>our complete bank of cures for pre-war diseasesif we convinced Diana without neurosurgery, we would have it>two ZAX'sDiana we could have suborned her hardware without suborning her.The other ZAX could have been acquired by harvesting from the dead- sneak up on a NCR/Legion battle, abduct some people who just died. and just freeze them.
>>1994386>Just because human experiments are marginally faster than our other options doesnt mean they should be encouraged.If by marginally, you mean weeks instead of years or even decades? Then yeah they are marginally faster.>There is literally NOTHING you can do to a human that cant just as easily be done to a primate.And that is lovely but, and I feel this comes up every-time, this is FALLOUT. Genetics is one of the few sciences it shits on completely. At least physics gets a fair warning. I can't stress enough how little genuine knowledge of biology actually helps with Fallout.
>>1994399Human trials that end in death are fully unnecessary. Its only necessary if you do the terible sadistic "science" Boros and Klein masturbate themselves over.THe fact the system is :"self correcting" means that we will be constantly losing assets. And right now, most people don't know anything. If people knew, we would be a lot worse of. Mobius is just the beginning, a sign we need to change now, before we lose a lot more than a super genius.
>>1994411>no human testing neededWe ripped the design we used for the portal based tesla coils which required human testing specifically on raiders.>if we convinced Diana without neurosurgery, we would have itThat was essentially stated to be impossible. It's lovely to say if we'd went a different route in our entire dealings with her we might have but that is extremely unlikely. >Diana we could have suborned her hardware without suborning her.Nope, her brain was part of the ZAX and a critical component.>The other ZAX could have been acquired by harvesting from the dead- sneak up on a NCR/Legion battle, abduct some people who just died. and just freeze them.Nope, brains go to shit fairly quickly and going that close to a battle would've just been asking to get fucked up.
>>1994412hey, the QM rewards people for in world knowledge.And Im telling you if you vivisect enough monkeys you have significantly fewer human deaths.testing EVERYTHING on humans is reckless as hell. use monkeys to narrow the field.
>>1994386Boo hoo, Im doing my master in Biochem after Bachelors in genetics. The immutable fact is that there is a difference in reaction to drugs between species, in fact, between members of the same species. That is why personalized medicine is a thing and drug studies are concluded after years of public use to filter out the fringe cases. Face it, while many aspects of research can be carried out on animals we can not sidestep the human part since that would leave the populace vulnerable to thousands of unforseen sideffects and the death and suffering caused by it.Also, doing PCR is not grounds for scientific credibility. Argumentation is.>you could stand to be a bit less insulting.Yes, I apologize. I get carried away when moralfags start inserting their moralfaggotry without a credible alternative.>seriously. Wanting to ensure basic human rights dont get sacrificed on the altar of SCIENCE isnt a bad idea.While basic ethicasy is nice (and arguably already present) the effect where you cant experiment on human embryos because "its unethical" is retarded. As would be a broad band decree on this matter. We will go case-by-case and decide what is proper and what is not when we know more about it. >worse than the NCR.How?? We dont have death camps and we allow everyone access to basic needs and services. Free education and so on. We even free slaves. And when we occasionally kill a few murderers for scientific advancement it is somehow totally wrong and makes us the devil? Please.>naturally born, rad free, FEV free primate.Cool idea, lets do it. Add other animals as well, if we cant outright clone em alive.
>>1994427>We ripped the design we used for the portal based tesla coils which required human testing specifically on raiders.You don't think we could just focus build "mini portals" without involving brain surgery?>That was essentially stated to be impossible. It's lovely to say if we'd went a different route in our entire dealings with her we might have but that is extremely unlikely. It would take time, which some anons are allergic to it seems. But it is fully possible.>Nope, her brain was part of the ZAX and a critical component.It was not irremoveable. We cut her offfrom the main systems by shooting a wire. We had already isolated her. Just plug something in instead and we would have access to alll the facility data.>Nope, brains go to shit fairly quickly and going that close to a battle would've just been asking to get fucked up.5 minutes, which is enough time to swoop in, pick up 5 recent dead, and freeze them.
>>1994443And this is a very good idea. One I hope QM already anticipated and has taken into account. We dont have many pure humans and we cant be wasting them. BUT, we still need humans as test subjects.
>>1994477We could always use volunteers. Like modern Drug testing, where its done a lot on animals, then finalized on willing human participants.
>>1994483This still requires many many (likely hundreds) of volunteer pure humans. If they wish to, they are welcome to help (if they are not otherwise valuable) and same goes for any other drug or treatment we do. But we cannot cry over dead raiders when we have no volunteers for the next brain surgery that may or may not give perfect memory. Again, I am not opposing the ethical conduct but the overly strict application of this. As an example, the first embryonic research came out of china where they probably turned a blind eye to this and has implications in cancer research. The idiotic thinking that some fields of study are taboo for no reason other than "feels bad man" is nonsense. If a serious discussion finds that the benefits dont outweigh the boons or it is a dumb thing to do (human centipede goes here for an example) then it gets the red light. Currently, in our case, we have done nothing of the sort and are continuing to do nothing of the sort.
>>1994477>Brain"Hmmm. Could always just breed pure humans in Vitro, then find a way to accelerate their aging and raise them as psudo-lobotomites.Its not that unconscious vat grown clones won't work, but you'll either need a lot of them or a lot of time. Probably both."
>>1994483We have Diana cloning lab, filled with all animals from the pre-world.So we can clone a shit ton of monkeys or other animals and test it on them.
>>1994443>.hey, the QM rewards people for in world knowledge.True but there are limits. The "laws" of Fallout must be obeyed.>And Im telling you if you vivisect enough monkeys you have significantly fewer human deaths.True.>testing EVERYTHING on humans is reckless as hell. use monkeys to narrow the field.True but I've already advised using cloned humans for testing the basics.>>1994465>You don't think we could just focus build "mini portals" without involving brain surgery?Not if you want to be able to have them mounted inside of the head's of people seemingly...which was the basis for the entire system that the tiny portals is based off of.>It would take time, which some anons are allergic to it seems. But it is fully possible.Could it be we are so "allergic" to it because this sort of dumb shit would end up getting our civilisation killed by denying valuable assets and such to us?>It was not irremoveable. We cut her offfrom the main systems by shooting a wire. We had already isolated her. Just plug something in instead and we would have access to alll the facility data.Oh you mean like another human brain? Seeing as that was the only thing the system was built to support. Also it's not a matter of the data it is the matter of a functioning ZAX. The moment she was disconnected the entire place was starting to fall apart, it's only because we reattached her that things didn't end badly.>5 minutes, which is enough time to swoop in, pick up 5 recent dead, and freeze them.Bullshit. You'd need to identify they were dead (since that is such a concern to you), hope they'd died in the last 3 minutes and get them into the scoutship which doesn't have any sorts of refrigeration. So it was fundamentally impossible.
>>1994519How would our more "Moral" Companions react to this over regular human testing?
>>1994519I'd advised this already but yeah, essentially this will get the physical concerns done but we'd need actual humans to test cognitive abilities and such.
>>1994519How much are we talking about? Is it just the growing time? Can we have the BioAI just start churning them out? What are the advantages/disadvantages of this on research quality and conclusions?
>>1994519They will be mindless, right?
>>1994525>Not if you want to be able to have them mounted inside of the head's of people seemingly...which was the basis for the entire system that the tiny portals is based off of.We can miniturize protal tech without the pretext of putting it in people's heads.>Could it be we are so "allergic" to it because this sort of dumb shit would end up getting our civilisation killed by denying valuable assets and such to us?It wouldn't be absolute. It would just prolongue, and its hasn't been pivotal in saving our civilization yet. >Oh you mean like another human brain? Seeing as that was the only thing the system was built to support. Also it's not a matter of the data it is the matter of a functioning ZAX. The moment she was disconnected the entire place was starting to fall apart, it's only because we reattached her that things didn't end badly.A volunteer, someone from our military, or science teams. The problem isn't using brains, but using unwilling brains.>Bullshit. You'd need to identify they were dead (since that is such a concern to you), hope they'd died in the last 3 minutes and get them into the scoutship which doesn't have any sorts of refrigeration. So it was fundamentally impossible.Upgrade the sensors before hand to scan for life signs if it doens't have it already, and it already has a fridge- we put the abducted into cryostorage for transport so they don't break the inside of the cargo hold.
>>1994450hey friend, I agree with you 100%. Im even studying the same fields you are.But,The fact of the matter is that a LOT of our research is driven by guys who until recently were card carrying batshit insane electrode-and-cattleprod types.And I fully acknowledge that Pure strain Human testing is indispensable for FEV research. There is no sidestepping it.What we can do is use animal testing to weed out the obviously horrifyingly aweful strains of FEV.In fact given our relatively easy access to vat grown animals initial research can proceed at a FASTER pace than all human testing.I agree also that false moral judgements often hamper testing. I am as mad over the stem cell idiocy as you.That doesnt mean we can ignore the problems of how our research methods look when observed from the outside.its not whiney moralising, its a strictly pragmatic realization that people react horribly to these kinds of things.we need to be able to honestly say we did everything possible to make these experiments humane. think of it as another type of lab safety protocal, this one just prevents people from trying to crucify you.
>>1994559>We can miniaturise portal tech without the pretext of putting it in people's heads.Except that is the context we did it under. You can't deny the facts of the situation. Christ if I can remember why we ended up researching it but the simple fact is that we had the technology for ages before then and the idea had been proposed. It was only under that pretext we finally decided to do it.>It wouldn't be absolute. It would just prolong, and its hasn't been pivotal in saving our civilisation yet. Because our civilisation hasn't been threatened yet. We've been lucky and I see no reason to assume that we will continue to be so.>A volunteer, someone from our military, or science teams. All of whom we needed.>The problem isn't using brains, but using unwilling brains.Aye and?>Upgrade the sensors before hand to scan for life signs if it doesn't have it already, Why not just perfect cloning while you are at it? >and it already has a fridge- we put the abducted into cryostorage for transport so they don't break the inside of the cargo hold.I could be wrong but I swore it didn't.At the end of the day though, why in the hell am I bothering to argue this, we saw it clear as day back with Diana: we care about results over morality and I can't blame the courier or any of us who voted for it.
>>1994602Exactly. I just want to put some effort in not being a pulp sci-fi villain, and at least consider optics without assuming everyone is a brain dead moron who would ignore everything except what is in front of their face.
>>1994602Refer to >>1994519I fully support this action if we can get away with it since it is simpler than messing around with all moralfags (IC and OOC). Animal use to filter out bad options is also very good. I dont know how much cell cultures will help but that is also a very fast option, if QM permits it.Seems we agree then, though I have less qualms about justifying our actions but it is admittedly simpler.
>>1994619Weeeeel, honestly, if we keep it in the lab and offer ghouls the way to get normal skin I bet nobody besides PETA-like gangs will raise a fuss. They may quietly object but it will not become a problem, especially for something as revolutionary as this. On top of this the majority of people just plain dont care either way.
>>1994604And now we don't have Mobius, and eventually, we're going to lose more if we keep it up. So results have not been all that great, have they?
>>1994666Results have been fucking excellent, Satan. You won't fool us.
>>19946662 ZAX units, mountains of tech and multiple installations vs a bit of grumbling and an absentee idealist? Seems a pretty good trade to me.Besides, playing a LG courier will end with us losing. We have not been unkind but we have done what needed to be done. Nothing wrong with that. Pragmatic, is what its called.
>>1994683Except often times "pragmatic" has been the excuse for "malevolent" because things come to be slightly faster.
>>1994539Well, to a point. A more effective way would be to raise them first, preferably to adult hood. The closer you resemble an actual human person, the better.>Robo-research Research all the BoS robots we got for upgrades to add to our regular forces.http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Tactics_robots_and_computersYou are made aware of the designs of all the BoS robots.Most predominantly, the Humanoid One.It is concernedly advanced, of an Old World model but definitely Government in design, comparable in many regards to the Securitron and even Power Armor. It's about as tall as a securitron, though much thinner. Its armor is also, like the securitron, titanium alloy plate but whats most striking is its highly advanced human design. Mimicing humans was actually very hard for robot designers of the past (still is really) but these get the movements and motions spot on. These robots are able to operate any human weapon with deft ease, and any vehicles they can fit in. Their armor is superior in thickness to power armor, but the human shape allows them to crouch for cover much better than a securitron. Though their torso armor is slightly less than that of a Securitron, they have fewer weak points.Their agility and melee capability is similar to the Assaultron, but does not come with a cost to armor. They also have highly advanced melee combat training, on par with the Assaultron>Moreno"These things are basically Automated Power armor ain't they?"Unlike the Securitron or the Assaultron, the only natural weapons these have are claws on the back of their arms, their function is to use produced and manufactured weapons given or grafted to them. And there is definitely some advanced modularity to allow them to be mass produced quickly.
>>1994688When? And explain why.
>>1994697Could they be made lighter by alien alloy/shield tech and are they smart enough to be a viable commando unit? Snipers? Can we build weapons into them (arm turns into gatling plasma, automatic sniper tucked into back and so on)? Are they better than our securitrons at frontline combat? What about urban? How can we improve them (Dr. 0)?
>>1994697>Dr 0"huh, check out the logo. 'ACME'. Oh boy">You[ACME, I've only seen that company a few times. Not often in the Mojave. A robotics company?]>Dr 0"Yes. General Atomics had its nuclear power, and Roboco had its. . .damnable House.ACME focused on being able to produce cheaply and more efficiently than all the others. Using the same material to make 10 robots where another company would make 2, and slashing time and effort.They never really took off because contractors preferred higher quality over higher quantity. They did manage to tackle the humanoid robot issue quite well, but human robots are boring.">Zax(CEO)"Ah yes, ACME. A company I could respect. No nonsense, pure profits.">Dr 0"If someone is making these, then we can expect more. A lot more where these came from. :
>>1994722So the BoS have army sizes comparable to NCR/MLA/Legion. Grrrrreat.
>>1994666I already answered that point.>>1994697>>1994722>Most predominantly, the Humanoid One.We might even consider producing these. They'd certainly work with some modification (alien metal circuitry and shit, maybe a head mounted laser like the Assaultron?).>>1994732Eh, I'm not surprised.
Also, an idea for an infiltrator bot:Prototype Series T-1000With the replicators we can print the nanomachines (whatever they are) and program the thing to be an infiltrator unit of extraordinary versatility. Only thing being inventing the nanomachines.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhMsboqMMzs Also, NANOMACHINES, SON! the Courier because taking a beating without interrupting your monologue is a gift that just keeps giving.
>>1994700Most of the neurology subjects were treated unnecessarily cruel, and exposed to methods that caused great pain compared to less intrusive but still effective methods. Like, I'm fairly certain we didn't need to do things that caused complete and total terror and agony seemingly at all time. But because Boros said it had to be done...
>>1994778>inb4 this is Yaunker
>>1994787Well Senator Arnold's pic was used the only time we ever saw Yaunker in person.
>>1994784You mean the confirmed murderers and rapists that on any other day would be shot on sight or tortured for their crimes? And we used them to map out the functions of the brain while stimulating responses in them. And Boros told us it was necessary. And you are saying it is not. First, why do these people worry you so, considering some asked for a last murder or cannibalistic treat before death while others even liked it.Second, why do you think we could have done it differently, considering Boros is the expert here?
>>1994814Thats why I worry :)
>>1994825Are we arguing about human experimentation?
>>1994849Yeah, moralanon says that our research on raiders from Montana and other ethically questionable actions haven't given us any benefit, and that the loss of Dr. Mobius exceeds any benefit they did bring.Particularly he says that we could've done all that stuff through normal methods, which is true. However I know that at least in the case of subjecting Montana Raiders to experimentation we got done in a matter of 1-3 turns what was stated would otherwise take us 12-36 turns ("several years").
>>1994849About "we could have done it more morally". Pretty meh to me but there you go. We pretty much locked down the human experimentation part already anyway. Lab tests in cell culture/mice(other small animal) followed by clones (prefferably human, maybe apes) and finally testsubject humans to determine mental effects if clones prove insufficient, though at that stage we are already making full humans so moot point.
>>1994872Yeah sure. Clones and whatever are fine. If they are non-sapient.
>>1988087>>Bio research >Strong universal defoliant>Klein"Hmmm, we have a number of those. Agent Orange. Agent Yellow. Agent Purple.">You[Got anything that can wipe out giant mutated plant life?]>Klein"There's always the Universal Caustic Agent, you call it "The Cloud". Has a tendency to gunk up the works though so it does need regular maintenance. And replacement maintainers.">You[That tends to rust metal doesn't it?]>Klein"Hmmm, yes but rust is only a problem in the long run. You can replace rusted parts, not so easy to replace rusted flesh.Damned stuff would just rust the original generator designs we tried. It ended up we simply decided to have two separate generators pump the individual components, and then have them mix and fall in open air with fans that would push the gas away from the actual fans themselves. I suppose since its still working, we succeeded.We did try to develop materials to protect people against it, but the bombs stopped our chemical efforts.We could try to make more of the Cloud for you. Unless you'd like something specific to plant material, that will take longer.">What do?
Did we just get the key to making robotic infiltration units!?
>>1994883Id Rather keep the cloud on the back burner, and develop something specific to plant material.
>>1994883Do a cloud + cloud resistant coating and we are in business (coat every piece of armor with it, well be golden against Elijah; might even sell it to those fighting him). Also, can they make a system that disperses the cloud over a period? A small disposable generator that pumps for a day, perhaps? Carpetbomb a few dozen of them and you could kill acres of forest, workers and equipment.
>>1994883I really hate that fucking cloud. Do we have any other options?
>>1994892Brahmin infertility. A virus that spreads like flu, has no outward symptoms and neuters any cow it touches, or renders them stillbirths. Whatever. Since the NCR has a giant population of those, when they start dropping the NCR will divert resources to fix it, as well as lose out on many jobs and lots of food.Also, we already have a defoliant selection and unless we go broad spectrum anti-plant viruses we will have to rely on airower to do it. Might as well be agent orange-equivalents.
>>1994912How do we turn this against the MLA/Legion too?
>>1994896>Klein"The Could will naturally disperse over time if the production systems are shut down. All those fog you saw floating around the Sierra Madre leads me to believe the generators have been running on the whole time. This 'Elijah' must have turned them up to full blast and activated the Ventilators to be producing so much.It actually doesn't take a lot to make cloud, a relatively small amount of liquid chemicals to produce a significantly sized gasseous area that you can keep feeding."
>>1994921I assume they eat meat as well and considering the brahmin is the only real option it fits well. Only problem is that it would eventually spread over the continent unless we include killswitches (like x number of generations before deded), meaning we will have to deploy multiple samples.
>>1994924"How quickly would the cloud be disperse after deployment?"
>>1994935I mean we could accidentaly wipe our the entire Brahmin population in the wasteland, or have it mutate and effect other animals. In my opinion, we're asking to get fucked on this
>>1994942"Anywhere between a few months and a few years, it won't last forever."
>>1994943Meh, crossover is a pretty rare thing, certainly with bigger viruses. We just have to be careful about it. Hence also the deadman switch. Its still dangerous but not overly so. Especially with our BioAI being the best at this shit.
>>1994957If we can certify that we can have a deadswitch, for the Legion and NCR strains, then I could chase this line of thought
>>1994949Seems pretty good. We could even deploy it to NCR factories to shut them down for a while and force the NCR to confront Elijah.
>>1994949"How easily could we accelerate the process?">>1994943>>1994957We could minimise the risk further choosing something with a low mutation rate or inability to trade genes. A fungal or parasitic method perhaps?
>>1994976Shouldnt go multicellular but certainly.
>>1994965How do you dead switch a virus though?>>1994949Well we want to be able to use the stuff to salvage texas, which means not corroding the valuable tech. Make something that doesn't destroy metal.
>>1994994>Klein"You may be overstating the amount of damage this does to metal. Rust isn't ideal, but it takes a while to cause any serious damage. The problem is more mechanically like suit latches and moving gears and parts.Quick exposure should only cause superficial damage and some mechanical failure which can be repaired once removed from the Cloud. It won't melt it like butter."
>>1994994>How do you dead switch a virus though?Exactly, so unless Diana has some idea, we should stay away from biological warfare like this
>>1994994It could lose parts of its DNA every time it integrates with the host. Eg it has 100 copies and every cell infection reduces it by 1. After 100 generations it cant form its shell and thus cant get out of the cell/organism it inhabits.For example. There are probably far better systems but off the top of my head this is an option. Could also do it with promotors to save space.
>>1995025Again with the irrational fear. If we cant come up with a satisfactory solution I will drop it too, however we must not dismiss it because "muh morality".
>>1995022But if it gets into sensitive electronics, It might corrode them to a point we can't identify and replicate them, yes? Especially plastics and silicon circuit parts? A hunk of metal in the shape of a gun is no use to anyone.
>>1995032That was a legitimate fear. Mutation and spreading beyond its scope is a very legitimate fear.
>>1995032>muh moralityWhat the fuck are you talking about anon? If not wanting the entire population of Brahmin in the wasteland to be taken out is crying "muh morality" then yeah, I am being a moralfag.I said I agree to explore it, but if we can't deadswitch it
>>1995054>>1995042If our BioAI says its a no go I will drop the matter but we should still explore it. If nothing else we learn what is and isnt possible in game. I see no reason why the solution here >>1995026 shouldnt work in Fallout.If it doesnt, fine. If it does, we gain another powerful tool to use (and it doesnt have to be bioweapons).
Oh I almost forgot to mention Veronica has given birth to another daughter. If you want to name her nows a good time.Wendy's second son has been named Alex after your suggestion.
>>1995124BrunhildeBut goodnight and keep pushing for replicators and fusion.
You make it apparent you want a more plant life specific toxin. And the Think Tank gets to work, Diana reluctantly joining them after you tell her how happy you'll be if she gets it done and we're dealing with Reese's mutant plants only. The evil ones.Its another project that won't be done in a month, but hopefully won't take long.
going to be away for a few hours, when I come back you'll go on that trip to THE OCEAN!
>>1988087Actually before i go.---You make a speech to your citizens, about the need for self sacrifice for this great nation and that hardships, however long and hard, are only temporary before a glorious new age.And, seeing the houses built so quickly, most everyone handles having new neighbors take up shelter in their homes. It actually helps the freed slaves too, by learning from them and growing accustomed to BigMT.---Meanwhile, you prepare your great journey to Hawaii. Opting to bring a teleporter means you won't be as speedy as a plane in a fight (you've never actually been in an air fight before) but you don't plan on going into a fight. With the dampener in place, and keeping clear of NCR territory, hopefully you'll be able to just sneak past any problems.Now, as to the Route:>Fly over Legion Lands, into Mexico, then toward Hawaii>Fly north over Legion Lands, through Washington/Canada, then into Hawaii>Eh. . .Hawaii is so far out to see. pretty dangerous. Maybe we can just go to China instead and take Dandan with us>Other?
>>1995241>Fly over Legion Lands, into Mexico, then toward Hawaii
>>1995241>Fly over Legion Lands, into Mexico, then toward HawaiiA nice propaganda poster to complement our speech to our citizens.
>>1995260You got anything a little more, I don't know, American? I'm getting a real red China feel
>>1995280Problem is that most of what america made ain't appropriate for us. Best I've ever found was this and even then this is the only image besides a recruitment poster.Say what you will about the Chinese-Soviet propaganda mills, they produced good shit to motivate their people to drag their nations out of technological, economic and industrial backwardness. Which is most of what we need.
This one seems a bit..... Busy, but it may fit.
>>1995300>most of what america made ain't appropriate for us.Probably will once we enter full war mode
>>1995241>>Eh. . .Hawaii is so far out to see. pretty dangerous. Maybe we can just go to China instead and take Dandan with usIsn't china even further out? Like how does that train of logic follow?Actual vote is >Fly over Legion Lands, into Mexico, then toward Hawaii
>>1994883if we are worried about corrosion or rust then the problem can be solved with titanium coating which is extremely resistant to either.as for options to deal with the plants.the alien Heat Ray will likely be amazingly effective. especially if we slap emmitters onto a Mr. Gutsy and let it slowly float forward. I name it Mr. Burny.another pyromaniac option is ClF3 also known as N-Stoff.its a better oxidizer than oxygen, reacts with everything including the noble gasses, And causes EVERYTHING it touches to burn including but not limited to: Glass, asbestos, sand, titanium, stone, etc.just some ideas
If we could replace the Enclave E with our phoenix.
>>1995343You'd be following along the coastline rather than into the deep ocean.
>>1995364Its bot our stuff corroding tbat is the issue. We have anti-cloud and use it in the hazard suits.Its all the valuable delucate tech corroding.
Also, I assume that once we have Hawaii under control and sufficient facilities built there we are going to construct a sky-cruiser to transport more construction assets and shit across to other island chains?That way we can have some passive expansion in a region where we won't need to worry about much competition beyond wildlife and tribals.
>>1995455ah yeah good point. i just kinda want to watch texas burn
>>1995464Eh, I really want to expand there because it is a region without any actual competition, filled with valuable tech and plentiful scrap which can easily be used to access Florida which is a high priority to me.
>>1995481I feel the same way about alaska.be prepared for the gulf to be full of monsters. 47 times legal pollution limits in modern times
and we're back, writing.
You kiss your wives goodbye. Separately of course, (though Sonia, Unity, and Vanessa don't seem to mind sharing too much). And your children, as you and Riddick head off on an adventure.Beneath the hull of the UFO, the truck sized teleporter device is strapped in. Riddick also adds a second thing to the back of the cockpit, his own personal Jet Bike he's been working on."I've learned not to fly without a backup."You take ED-E with you. You're tempted to take Rusty with you too, for the sheer fear factor of not only flying so far but . . .over the ocean.All tales about people going into the ocean on a boat are the same. They either come back, empty handed and usually in bad shape if they're lucky. Or they don't come back. No one in 200 years has ever crossed the Great Green ocean. Even coastal fishermen in their small boats have to be wary, lest rather than they catch the fish the fish catch them. Swallow them whole, boat and all.You'll be flying over the nasty putrid waters.---In your life as a Courier, you are greeted my many new sights regularly. Such is it that, as you traveled over Mexico, being careful to avoid the NCR's radar detection (through gross estimate of course) you fly in the coordinates provided by your Pip-Boy GPS towards Hawaii.Looking at the coast, standing there staring at the sunset, the ocean seemed like it goes on forever. Here up in the sky, that's doubly true. Slowly, but surely, the coastline vanished, and you see yourself surrounded by endless emerald waves.It is a long flight, and mercifully, peaceful. Until hours in, a terrible sight greets you.A wall. A giant, massive wall higher than any mountain or hoover dam. A sheer cliff face of angry grey and green clouds, cackling with lightning of different colors. It seems to go up and up and up.>Brain"That's . . .a lot of storm.">Klein"Hmmm. We lost our meteorologists after the X-17 incident.">Zax(RND)"Uh, lemme pull up my archives. . .hmmm. I can't tell if that's a thunderstorm or a hurricane. Eitherway, that thing looks like none of either. From a visual estimate, it's going into the darned Mesosphere. Which is impossible actually."It seems to stretch from horizon to horizon, there's an area beneath it of no cloud but thick, almost fog like rain, and according to the Zax it goes up to at least 60,000 feet. Or maybe higher. You've never even tested if the UFO goes that high.>What Do?
>>1996721Now probably isn't the time to stress test the UFOCan we fly closer to the ocean, as the storm might not be as strong there
>>1996721What does riddick think?
>>1996721Have Riddick take the wheel and fly the UFO over this storm
>>1996721>emerald waves.Is that good? that doesn't sound good.But also ask riddick. If he has storm flying experience or something, now would be the time to speak up.
>>1996721Ask motherfucker Riddick what to do
>>1996721Ask RiddickBut my instinct is to fly over rather than under the storm
>>1996721Considering the UFO came from space Im betting we can go over it. Besides, 20 km up is nowhere near space so we should be fine.
>>1997458Doing some reading, the mesosphere starts at around 50 km. So what gives? ZAXs got their measure wrong?Also, fly over since the higher levels contain fewer and more constant risks vs lower when seamonsters, plasmastorms or hurricane winds can kill us.
Also, QM, does the BoS use any airplanes like the Hellion or is it drones like that or something else entirely?http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hellion
>>1988195One more piece - I've been inspired lately.
>>1997547Three and a half Fistos for this art piece. Would propaganda again.
>>1996753>>1996761>>1997265>Riddick"Ain't ever too good to fly into a storm you have no experience with. Any navigator sea or space will tell you.Got some experience flying through bad weather. Mostly nebula, snowstorms, least one trip to a planet with mudstorms.Best bet is to steer clear of it as much as you can. Fly around it and hope the weather doesn't catch up on you unexpectedly, or fly over it and hope the ship can take it and the weather doesn't try to drag you down. Your call."Riddick suggests either going around the storm (you do not know how big it is and it might reach you anyway) or going above it (and hope the ship can take it).>>1997458Darnit, I just realized I said 60,000 ft. That should be 60,000 km.
>>1997617Go above We into space now
>>1996761Also yes you can vote to let Riddick take the wheel and rely on his instincts.
>>19967611 for let Riddick Fly>>19967371 for below the storm>>19976201 for go over the storm
>>1997621I'll trust riddick in the pilot seat.
>>1997682I agree to trusting riddick. Also, I'd point out the NCR ain't getting through this storm with their ship, so we can turn back...but by great risk comes greater reward.
>>1997730Let's hope the storm doesn't interfere with the teleporter system
Rolled 83 (1d100)>>1997682Let Riddick fly.
>>199761760 THOUSAND kilometers?? Ok, QM, read through the measurements and refresh a bit. If you meant 60 km thats ok but 60 Mm in literally out of this world (ISS 408 km).Also, fly over.
>>1997758yeah, let riddick fly over.
>>1997786He did state that it's going so high up that it shouldn't be possible.However I suspect all hard measurements should be taken loosely, so basically "the storm is really fucking high, possibly into space."
>>1997786This, the moon is only 384,400 km away from the earth so this storm would have consumed the moon...
>>1997795>Implying 60,000km>384,400kmAnd this is why the bitching in this quest is useless.
>>1997786If it actually is that high and not just a mistake by qm, thoughts on the cause? Alien shenanigans?
>>1997803Oh shit, I misread it as 600,000 km.>And this is why the bitching in this quest is useless.I made an honest mistake of seeing one zero too many and that makes "bitching" pointless?It's not even like we get any honest to god benefit from this thing being even slightly smaller, it still is a giant storm of death.
>>1997811Well generally hurricanes work off of a difference in temperature causing a constant drag of moisture and shit upwards.
>>1997811Alien shenanigans, maybe the Hawaii base had a secret countermeasure that integrated Y-17 Lab tech with alien tech, and it was activated when the bombs started falling to try and prevent bombs falling on the base...only for the storm to be worse than the bombs ever could have been.
>>1997817Normal hurricanes yes, but they would never be able to get that high. >>1997820I could see it, feels like fallout
>>1997794I dont think you realize how huge this is. It would literally be a straight column 10 times the size of the earth. That is so huge its ridiculous. It being in the mesosphere (starting at around 60) is plausible, seeing as there are still weather phenomena up there. The storm being 60k km away means that the end of the storm is going so fast its stupid (Around 4000 m/s meaning it would fly the fuck off. MAYBE 1/3 would be pulled down by gravity but the rest would be gone to the solar wind and its own speed in moments. Theres a reason the atmosphere stops where it does.).
>>1997824My point was that if you had the water become extremely, extremely hot or something, you'd get a taller hurricane. Hell if I know what is causing this but possibly the ocean near it is more irradiated than any other body of water we've ever encountered and that is heating the water creating this giant irradiated storm of death.Or it could be something like the "dead sea" (might be wrong on the name) in FO 4 or what happened to the Glow.
>>1997836Shit's crazy in fallout
>>19978365 times the size of earth*Again, the measurements in this quest have been stated before to be rough. We're supposed to gather that this storm goes into space for unknown reasons, details aren't so important.
>>1997853Yes, you are correct. My mistake. However the point still remains this thing would be waaaaay outside the literal atmosphere of the planet, meaning it should be observable from space (and be a hazard to avoid with your space ship, this is retarded and in F3s alien DLC unseen). Also, I dont see newtonian physics turning a blind eye so that this little storm can literally Be Outside The Atmosphere of the planet. Not going to happen. Even in Fallout.
>>1997892I mean, we can investigate more (particularly by trying to fly over it) but if it is then it is.
>>1997892.... Considering all the facts of it being almost impossible to happen, could this just be all an illusion?Could we be flying into a psychic trap? Yes im paranoid.
>>1997906A psychic trap projected randomly in the middle of the ocean?One that's also presumably what caused our ill-fated satellite to fail?It's possible there are some sea-monsters with psionic hunting adaptations that could create illusions but I don't see this being the case here.
>>1997914actually you know what, let me retract that. I need to go back and check my notes, I had very specific reasonings for this.
>>1997914Will that's a relief.... >>1997917Annnnd its gone
>>1997922What did he say?
Alright, so the reason for the wonky numbers is 1. I myself was misreading 2. typosBasically, your normal hurricane, after double checking, goes up 50,000 feet. A quick google cal shows that as 15km.I was trying to convey that this storm travels up much higher than that. Like 60-80,000 feet.Honestly again I'm screwing myself over by using actual numbers rather than basic descriptors. This is why I avoid numbers like the devil.These are naturally non-occuring storm clouds that go up really really high beyond what normal (OW) records indicate that cloud formation of any kind are supposed to travel.No they don't go to the moon.
>>1997758I need 2 more rolls
>>1997929So around the 20 km mark. Seems Fallout enough to me and it has the added benefit on not killing physics in the setting.Let Riddick fly over it. Have EDE check if it is pshycic shenanigans (compare machine data to organic observations).
Rolled 23 (1d100)>>1997932
Rolled 92 (1d100)>>1997929
>>1997938>EDE<<Confused beeping>>Doesn't look like machines are equipped to handle that sort of business.
Rolled 59, 12, 86 + 15 = 172 (3d100 + 15)Rolling for Reasons
>>1997952d-delete this right now
>>1997941On a roll! Last one was 94. Still not statistically significant though... ;(
>>1997950Get wrecked. All the storms are belong to us.>>1997943Does EDEs scan match our visual approximation? Does it seem as big to him as it does to us? nohomo
>>1997975Yes, as are the visual readings of the ZAX
>>1998008Let Riddick fly
>>1998008QM, are you dead again? Will you run or are you doing QM things?
>>1998008Also, I hope our braniacs added flotation devices to this particular portal and that every portable portal comes with a self-destruct mechanism built in. If not, everybody gets smacked.
Sorry to keep you waiting everyone, going to be very busy tonight with some homework that I'll try to get done very soon.
>>1999374best of luck QM
>>1999374OP come back
I would like to petition that our human armed forces, in all cases current and future, be trained and organised as engineers: as they are a critical portion of our current construction capacity and ensure that our armed forces aren't a drain on society during times of peace while also avoiding the risk of civilians near dangerous areas where we must perform construction.I would also like to discuss our policy for people joining our empire / state in Montana and Hawaii. In order to establish the idea of what our standards or limitations for entry are: if they shall be equal immediately to true citizens for example.
>>2002680Ehhh, Human Special forces will usually always trump Robotic special forces.Also, if we're going to war, and joining an allied faction, their soldiers usually feel better if we have human forces on the front too
>>2002755True but training them as engineers using our current method greatly accelerates their training and doesn't exactly prevent them being front-line combatants.It just means we can build more quickly and that our military isn't wasted manpower during peaceful periods.
>>2002783But it does mean we would have soldiers trained in non-ideal combat roles- Engineering corps are generally back line support, or vehicle use. We want the soldiers we have to be more capable of special ops and other offensive roles. Every man a spartan, everyone else is a bot.
>>2003067>But it does mean we would have soldiers trained in non-ideal combat rolesHow isn't it ideal for our soldiers to be able to construct, maintain and repair defences, robots, vehicles and buildings?>Engineering corps are generally back line support, or vehicle use. To be entirely frank, having our humans in rear line roles or in vehicles is for the best to ensure their survival which given how few we have to spare is a necessity.>We want the soldiers we have to be more capable of special ops and other offensive roles. I fail to see how training our soldiers in engineering doesn't make them better in offensive and special ops roles if that is your concern.>Every man a spartan, everyone else is a bot.Spartans historically are a terrible society to emulate. Even in terms of war.
>>2003171>I fail to see how training our soldiers in engineering doesn't make them better in offensive and special ops roles if that is your concern.There is being knowledgeable in engineering, and there is being an engineer. It plays into the nature of the job. Do we want soldiers who can understand how physics in the real world work, or do we want engineers who fight good? For a war, I would prefer having more of the former.>Spartans historically are a terrible society to emulate. Even in terms of war.Not history Spartans.. Halo Spartans. My mistake.
>>2003195>There is being knowledgeable in engineering, and there is being an engineer. It plays into the nature of the job. Soldiers have always been engineers. I'm just saying we should take it to it's natural limit based off our high technological standard and better ability to educate.>Do we want soldiers who can understand how physics in the real world work, or do we want engineers who fight good? For a war, I would prefer having more of the former.And if we can have both, why wouldn't we? Fact is we've converted standard infantry squads into engineer squads and they have if anything became harder workers.
>>2003201>Soldiers have always been engineers. I'm just saying we should take it to it's natural limit based off our high technological standard and better ability to educate.Some soldiers have been Engineers. A small number of them. And they do the tasks that require engineers. However, when it comes time to go out and do war, The dedicated soldier will do better than the engineer who knows soldiering.>And if we can have both, why wouldn't we? Fact is we've converted standard infantry squads into engineer squads and they have if anything became harder workers.That kind of goes against the idea of having specialists. No one can do everything, and the more focus they are afforded in their profession, the better they would be. Time spend training and practicing engineering is time not spent training and practicing combat maneuvers, and Spec Ops tactics, and etc. If we want the best soldiers, we can't really expect them to all learn the same elective.
>>2003245>Some soldiers have been Engineers. A small number of them. The Romans would like to disagree with you there. >And they do the tasks that require engineers. However, when it comes time to go out and do war, The dedicated soldier will do better than the engineer who knows soldiering.Except you are assuming there is a difference between the dedicated soldier who is an engineer and the dedicated soldier who is a soldier. That they'd be any more or less skilled.>That kind of goes against the idea of having specialists. No one can do everything, and the more focus they are afforded in their profession, the better they would be. There are hard caps on that kind of thinking. There are levels of skill no human can or ever will reach because it is not physiologically possible.>Time spend training and practising engineering is time not spent training and practising combat manoeuvresCombat manoeuvres? The hell are you expecting them to practise realistically. There are only so many ways to breach a door, fight hand-to-hand and so on which with our VR simulations eliminating any sorts of problems relating to injury or tiredness, can be performed far more frequently and intensely. Not to mention that the energy weapon that our general is advising we use as our standard combat weapon literally aims itself and shit so the difference between someone who practices their entire day to be the most accurate and someone with a few days of training every month are going to be fairly close competitors.Also I feel I must point out, that we saw no loss of effectiveness reported or otherwise in our engineer squads compared to our standard infantry when by your logic they MUST be worse.>Spec Ops tacticsCould you give an example?>If we want the best soldiers, we can't really expect them to all learn the same elective.Why do you feel it is an elective? If anything it is ever more vital given the advancing technological nature of our armed forces: our newest weapons, armour and so on all require vastly more understanding and training to maintain, repair and such in the field than a conventional rifle or such. So our soldiers will have to receive a greater degree of training to do this sort of thing anyhow unless you want them to have their weapon break in the field leaving them without a weapon until they can go see a quartermaster.I've got to go, we can continue this later or OP can pitch in and end it if he wants.
>>2003318>The Romans would like to disagree with you there.The Romans had construction workers. There is a difference in required education between our complex robotics systems and digging trenches and making a log wall.>Except you are assuming there is a difference between the dedicated soldier who is an engineer and the dedicated soldier who is a soldier. That they'd be any more or less skilled.Only so much a mind can absorb at once. If they are learning engineering, they aren't learning to be a better soldier.>There are hard caps on that kind of thinking. There are levels of skill no human can or ever will reach because it is not physiologically possible.That still isn't an excuse to dilute the education of our soldiers.>Combat manoeuvres? The hell are you expecting them to practise realistically. There are only so many ways to breach a door, fight hand-to-hand and so on which with our VR simulations eliminating any sorts of problems relating to injury or tiredness, can be performed far more frequently and intensely. Not to mention that the energy weapon that our general is advising we use as our standard combat weapon literally aims itself and shit so the difference between someone who practices their entire day to be the most accurate and someone with a few days of training every month are going to be fairly close competitors.Soldiers are always doing drills. Repetition is key to making something instinct. Higher level training requires more drills and more repetition.Also I feel I must point out, that we saw no loss of effectiveness reported or otherwise in our engineer squads compared to our standard infantry when by your logic they MUST be worse.We saw no loss from regular soldiers to combat engineers. To be expected- specialist training is on top of regular training. We will see efficiency losses if we want to stack specialist training on specialist training>Could you give an example?Small squad tactics and strategies, unconventional warfare, psychological operations, multi-environmental survival, hand to hand, marksmanship and resourcefulness to a higher standard than normal soldiers.Why do you feel it is an elective? If anything it is ever more vital given the advancing technological nature of our armed forces: our newest weapons, armour and so on all require vastly more understanding and training to maintain, repair and such in the field than a conventional rifle or such. So our soldiers will have to receive a greater degree of training to do this sort of thing anyhow unless you want them to have their weapon break in the field leaving them without a weapon until they can go see a quartermaster.Them knowing how to use their current equipment does not mean they need to know the intricacies in how their equipment works, or the safety code for our civilian buildings. As we roll out new equipment, they will train and drill with the new gear until they are comfortable with it.
Remember when the Enclave came to visit us and fucking hated us? That really hurt
>>2004185Right in the feels m8Maybe once we get the FEV lab up and running, we can help return our mutant citizens to a purer form of humanity. That should help with the Enclave's perception of us.
>>2004595some of our citizens are giant cockroaches.
>>2004595What if they like how they are? Gonna force it on them?
>>2003454This anon has it absolutely correct. Although our engineers could probably wipe the floor with most NCR regulars they are a far cry from combat specialists. This takes years and years of training. If we want black ops it takes longer (IRL half a decade or more, IG we have the VR pods so probably less) to be an actual quality force. This also means that while they might be good engineers, when we push for black-ops roles they will steadily be shittier engineers, to the point that they are no longer any use as those. The point being that specialization is always preferable to multi-role. If you look at any armed force today, all are distributed into roles (engineers, frontline, logistics, demolition etc.) so every member can be better at their given job and so an engineer doesnt have to worry about how to set up a mobile kitchen or calculate artillery coordinates bur can instead worry about mine placement, structure building and so on. Practice makes perfect and if you dont have the time to practice you will never be good.We can, and should, have different roles in our military and our soldiers should never just be frontline grunts but making them all engineers means they are not suited for frontline or spec-ops tasks. Training engineers in addition to spec-ops, Spartans and Ghost sniper teams is a good way to get the maximum out of our men. Training them all into engineers and throwing them at black-ops missions is a good way to get them killed.
>>2004622And it's not like we want to send dumb grunts in as spec ops. They will need to be smart, get a degree in something like they have to do now. That way we have some Spec Ops who have a background in engineering, some have medical experience, other linguistics, or psychology, etc.
>>2004627Well yes but when we are making the best killers possible being an engineer goes on the backburner. Unless we want them to be able to do higher calculations on the go (eg. for explosive placement on buildings) they will probably focus on physical skills. Thats not to say they wont be smart but unless its very applicabe in combat it probably will slide as time goes on. What will remain useful, however, is gut-feelings, experience and simpler principles that dont need a degree. I agree that every black-ops dude has to take a course in engineering (for the aformentioned explosives) but they will hardly use the degree on a mission.
Its not exactly easy for two men built like brick shithouses to switch places even in an expanded cockpit. But you make do.Riddick begins to ascend and climbs altitude, while moving away from the storm to buy time, correctly deducing that it was expanding in your direction. The ship climbs higher and higher, soon the sky begins to darken from its bright blue hue as the pressure outside plummets. Despite the ominous mass of storm that is the oceans rival in terms of size, roiling angrily from a distance with thunderbolts of many colors, its quite calm up here at least. The sky is a darker blue when you crest over the top of the storm, Riddick seems to have things in toe. The wide blue of the ocean is now replaced by endless, swirling grey with patches of glowing green. A never ending horizon of meteorological fury lurks below you, but here on the cusp of the stratosphere where only the weather balloons go, it's quite and cold.>Riddick"Ship seems to be handling fine. Don't know how big this storm below us is. Might not even be able to see Hawaii, will have to rely on the GPS">con't
>>2004642Boy did I pick the right time to wake up.
>>2004635Teams would probably have a demo expert so while each one would have a basic explosive training, some would be more advanced.
>>2004654Absolutely, but again, not full engineer degrees as they are not fully applicable, whereas combat training is.
>>2004666Right. We're in agreement on that.
Rolled 26, 66, 96 + 20 = 208 (3d100 + 20)>>2004642http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2p2vmp>EDE<<WAAA::AAAHHH!>>>Riddick"Dammit!"The UFO vibrates violently, shaking your very bones, literally, your teeth chattering as you grip onto your seat for dear life. The the groan of metal being stretched and contorted subtly, as alarms of every sound ring out like the wail of wind rushing past the craft that starts to violently dive, as you face the very earth covered by angry storm like a gaping maw trying to suck you in.>Riddick"EDE, help me reverse the stabilizers.">You[What's going on!]>Riddick"We're being pulled down by the vortex. Never seen weather like this planet-side, its almost like a tractor beam."A bright flash illuminates the cockpit, and sparks and smoke fry up from the console. The air feels electrified and you feel your hairs standing on edge. There's a bright orange gash on the side of the hull.>Riddick"EDE, we need to magnetize. Ship can't take another hit like that.">EDE<Concerned Beeping>>Riddick"Then try the auxiliary power. Fire the emergency boosters"Riddick and EDE struggle to try and regain control of the craft, as you feel so helpless. Is this how it all ends?Roll me 3 1d100s!
Rolled 40 (1d100)>>2004713Oh no.
Rolled 49 (1d100)>>2004713Well shit
Rolled 7 (1d100)>>2004713+20?? Why? Also, if it is just wind, it shouldnt be able to suck us down since the air density is so low as to be negligible (99,9% of air is below the mesosphere). If it is tech or hoodo I will not complain.>inb4 nat1
>>2004718>>2004728>>2004731We fucked then. Heres hoping we can restart the thing while falling. We have a ways to go still so theres time until the surface hits.
Rolled 27 (1d100)>>2004713
Rolled 3 (1d100)>>2004713nat hundo let's go.
Whats the chance of us rolling so low so consistantly?
>>2004738WEW LADDY. My dice have been untouchable lately.
>>2004741rolled a 94 and 92 last two times. And now this shit.
>>2004732Im sorry, I tried.
Rolled 59 (1d100)>>2004754Seeing as you have the best roll I say well done. Were still fucked though.Rolling for statistical purposes.
Rolled 80 (1d100)>>2004758
Rolled 56 (1d100)>>2004758
>>2004758>>2004770>>2004774you can stop now. Let it happen.
Rolled 26 (1d100)>>2004758
>>2004775Not rolling for the quest. I want so see how it goes. Seems reasonable now. Whereas 5 rolls below 50 (2 of them below 10) seems awfully shit.Dice gods are fickle.
>>2004713>>2004728Riddick and EDE continue to struggle for control, but all seems lost when another bolt of lightning rocks the UFO and the controls stop responding. EDE makes efforts to repair, but all you can do is watch the world spin around you and struggle to hold onto the contents of your bowel.Riddick tries to think of an escape plan, but the Teleporter is on the outside of the hull. Your own teleportal device is useless at this range.Suddenly the ocean comes into view, and you count the seconds you have left before you crash.Just before you crash into a watery grave, EDE beeps furiously and Riddick yanks on the throttle, power restored to the UFO. ---Amazingly, the space in between the raging storm above and the billowing waves below is not so violent. But all around you are wonders and terrors to behold. Great twisters of water, lifting up into the sky or crashing down, a flurry of lightning bolts high up in the air, it seems like the very world is having a tantrum. Glowing green clouds of intense radiation in patches in the stormy ceiling above.Your GPS signal isn't working right, although you still have contact with BigMT thanks to the teleporter system, Diana or RobCo's satellite can't pinpoint where you are.Riddick says he doesn't think we should take our chances with that storm again, but points out that apart from attempting to bail through the teleporter (and losing the UFO) the only other options are to try and fly below the clouds and attempt to find a satellite signal or clearing to break free of the storm.>What Do?
>>2004865Let's go to Hawaii
>>2004865Lightning should not be a problem for us. Since the Faraday cage of our ship should protect us from the damage of lightning. That means that except for maybe a bit of singed paint and some electrical fluctuations we should be fine, not stuck with a hole in the ship.Also, did the storm winds suck us down? That means that the storm itself would have to be going the other way and not sucking water up but pushing air into the ocean. Since we are not seeing this, wtf is going on?Take Riddicks advice, have EDE repair as much as possible and help him with that. In the future, install a parachute and emergency one-off boosters to the UFO. Maybe hoverplates on a separate battery.
>>2004865taking Riddicks advice right now is about the best thing we can do it seems.
>>2004865We should take Riddick's advice
>>2004874Also still head for Hawaii
>>2004874None of this is making much sense. In the first place, a flying saucer is probably one of the most aerodynamic shapes there is (notwisthanding the teleporter device strapped to the bottom which mercifully stayed on "thank goodness for expert engineering!").Secondly the UFO doesn't even operate like a normal aircraft, it uses /intertia/ not aerodynamics to propel itself.
>>2004889So it wasnt wind? Does EDE know what the issue was?>>2004713>"We're being pulled down by the vortexAlso, with a metal exterior lightning wouldnt be an issue. Unless something was shooting at us I dont see us getting blown open by the storm.
>>2004912>EDE<<Beep Boop>>EDE says he's not sure, but felt himself being "pulled" by something.Also that he "hears" something. A signal, its faint and he can't make clear of what it is, but it sounds familiar. There's too much electrical static to make any sense of it.
>>2004923In the same direction as the craft? Is it localized (a specific point) or is it just general "down"? Also, is it stronger or weaker now that we are at the height we are? Any change in direction?
>>2004923If it sounds familiar, could it be a prewar device? Giant-ass tractor/magnet beam to pull down panes crossing the Pacific? Can we trace the location in any way? General direction?
>>2004923Repair the UFO and head towards the signal by flying under the storm
Going to pass out in a bit.>>2004934Give me a 1d100 to see if EDE can trace the signal
Rolled 57 (1d100)>>2004977
Rolled 92 (1d100)>>2004977
>>2004982Oh yeah! Back again.
Rolled 29 (1d100)>>2004977Nat 100
>>2004982>>2004977>EDEED-E has a moment of inspiration. He activates the teleportal, just briefly enough, to summon Spi-Eyebots through. Together with their combined sensors, they are just able to pinpoint the location of the signal, before the spi bots are violently cast aside by the wind outside.>EDE<<Concerned Beeping>>EDE says he hears a voice calling to him. The only problem is, it's calling to him from the direction where the storm seems fiercest and thickest. But its so familiar.>What do?
>>2005162pause in the (relative) calm to affect repairs and assess damage.boost power to and engines.Have ED-E see if he can respond.Riddick should be prepared for incoming fire. It seems likely that the Enclave holds Hawaii.If ED-E can open a parh for us we should take it.If not we fly through the storm and hope the shield holds.perhaps we can rig the shield to absorb electrical discharge?
>>2005170>to shield and engines.
>>2003454>The Romans had construction workers. There is a difference in required education between our complex robotics systems and digging trenches and making a log wall.That does not deny that their soldiers were all experienced in construction. That they could make roads, forts and so on as their leaders required which were highly engineered constructions for the time.>Only so much a mind can absorb at once. If they are learning engineering, they aren't learning to be a better soldier.Our life expectancy as of this point in time for the average citizen is 100 years at least. With augments, they remain physically and mentally capable to that point as well. They have plenty of time even before pointing out that the mind can absorb a very large amount in a very short amount of time, especially with optimised education methods. >That still isn't an excuse to dilute the education of our soldiers.Again, you assume we are diluting their education and skills. I believe that we aren't anywhere near the full capacity of our soldiers.>Soldiers are always doing drills. Repetition is key to making something instinct. Higher level training requires more drills and more repetition.True but what you are advising they practise until it is instinct isn't something that can be ingrained for the most part.>We saw no loss from regular soldiers to combat engineers.You admit this truth yet you can't admit that making all of our soldiers to this standard is not of appreciable benefit? Even though it took a month at most?>To be expected- specialist training is on top of regular training. We will see efficiency losses if we want to stack specialist training on specialist trainingTrue but I feel you underestimate the ability of our troops to retain and learn information.
>Small squad tactics and strategies......and resourcefulness to a higher standard than normal soldiers.Most of that ain't special operations shit. Small squad tactics are essential for all units because they ARE a small unit of a bigger machine. Hand to hand will be fairly simple to train and I've already given a logical reason why marksmanship isn't as much of an essential skill as you feel. As to unconventional warfare, I fail to see how you expect that to work out.>Them knowing how to use their current equipment does not mean they need to know the intricacies in how their equipment worksTo use it? No. To repair it after the thing takes a bullet for them? Almost certainly essential. >As we roll out new equipment, they will train and drill with the new gear until they are comfortable with it.Except it's not a matter of being comfortable with it. I want our soldiers to be able to fix their shit without help so that they can be trusted to always be ready for a fight even if cut off from support. It is far easier for them to do so with an understanding of science and engineering especially as our troops get shit like PA and the new disintegration particle rifles.>>2004185>>2004595To be fair I'd like to talk to them again and point out that we are working towards making our humans pure and shit. Possibly depending on how Hawaii goes and shit we can argue that with our strength, we can shield them while they "grow" the pure human population and help us in this regard. Not to mention our ability to produce things they most likely need: replacement parts for vertibirds and PA for example.
>>2004622Again, I fail to see why you are all obsessed with having human super soldiers / special operators rather than being realistic about what we, as players, can and will pull off in terms of plans (you have all seen our dice, you think that we could actually pull off special operations? Hell, the MLA has future seeing witches, the NCR has multiple ZAX's which as much as I have argued against their ability to predict the future, you all believe can. So we'd get our shit detected which leaves only the Legion who ain't exactly the kind of people suited for strategic raids given they don't exactly have any vital intelligence to discover, officers to steal or facilities to destroy). We shouldn't be chasing that unicorn over the rainbow, when the pot of gold at it's base will do just the same. If all of our soldiers are engineers, then we can grow far faster by having our military clear enemies and construct the shit we need in Montana, Hawaii, Texas, New Washington and elsewhere. A wartime and peacetime military. Fact is that our soldiers ARE more valuable if we can make use of them during times of peace. Rather than your one-trick-wonder supersoldiers who lack any skills we can use outside of killing. This is before mentioning, that even if every one of our soldiers was suddenly by your actions worth 4000 times that of the average NCR troop and could take down twice that number before being captured or killed, we'd still run out of super soldiers before they ran out of troops, tanks, planes, artillery shells and drones.When we are far, far stronger than we are now, we can consider human super soldiers and such but as of this moment in time, not only are we not deploying our infantry anywhere but we have no plans to get them involved in a protracted land war or a covert operation and couldn't even if we wanted to. They drain more than any other group of citizens but if we converted them into engineer-infantry then suddenly they actually doing something constructive (pun) during peacetimes that accelerates our arrival at the point where we COULD do what you are advising without it being a waste of resources.I don't give a fuck what you want to do with our special forces. I couldn't give two shits because we are so far off from having anything of the sorts that worrying about what they are going to be learning or trained in is a massive waste of time and effort. I'd rather focus on making the shit we actually have, the shit we have the ability to make use of, more useful by reducing the times they can't help us and making sure they are as good as possible. Screw having the SAS, we aren't in the position to make use of them.
>>2005170This. Power down our weapons and get the maximum safe amount into the shield, engines and sensors.>It seems likely that the Enclave holds Hawaii.That is a distinct possibility but it is also quite likely this is just a pre-war thing. Still, on our toes...
>>2005194>That does not deny that their soldiers were all experienced in construction. That they could make roads, forts and so on as their leaders required which were highly engineered constructions for the time.its still requires much less knowledge to build the bridges and roads of rome than it is to be a combination electrical, civil and mechanical engineer like you want them to be.>Our life expectancy as of this point in time for the average citizen is 100..Engineering isnt easy. Especially multidisciplinary engineering. That is a lot of time spent on it, rather than being a more effective soldier.>Again, you assume we are diluting their education and skills. I believe that we aren't anywhere near the full capacity of our soldiers.Yes. Because currently engineers are our only specialists. As we expand the capabilities and introduce more specialist streams we will not be able to maintain soldiers who are both engineers and highly trained spec ops.>True but what you are advising they practise until it is instinct isn't something that can be ingrained for the most part.Drills form habits, and habits save lives. The more thought a soldier puts before acting the worse. And practice makes perfect, especially in high stress situations where people often revert to what they know.>You admit this truth yet you can't admit that making all of our soldiers to this standard is not of appreciable benefit? Even though it took a month at most?Regular soldiers learning engineering is different from combat specialists learning engineering and being spec ops at the same time.>True but I feel you underestimate the ability of our troops to retain and learn information.Even if they are only slightly less able because they learned engineering, it isnt worth it because they should be soldiers first.
>>2005232>>20051702 for this, just need one more to confirm
>>2005266I'll back it
>>2005199>Most of that ain't special operations shit. Small squad tactics are essential for all units because they ARE a small unit of a bigger machine...Its the standards that they have to achieve which makes a difference. Where a regular soldier should be hitting a person at 100 m or whatever, a spec ops guy should be doing 150. We also have to teach independent thinking, and how to oeprate cut of from command. Because spec ops will be cut off at some point, but back line combat engineers wont.>To use it? No. To repair it after the thing takes a bullet for them? Almost certainly essential. Build guns so they can easily taken apart into a couple largish pieces, and give people a lot of spares. Also, if you nees to be an engineer to fix your gun, you wont have the resources to do so out in the field.you would be at base. In which case you can be given a new one, or have a bot repair it.>I want our soldiers to be able to fix their shit without help so that they can be trusted to always be ready for a fight even if cut off from support. It is far easier for them to do so with an understanding of science and engineering especially as our troops get shit like PA and the new disintegration particle rifles.Except parts becomes an issue. Highly advance tech needs very precisly made parts. If they are cut off, no parts, no repairs. If they have parts, they arent cut off and someone else can repair it, or they can get a new one.
>>2005194>>2005199>continues pointless arguments instead of voting.God Dammit Fallout Quest. My vision for our soldiers is a bit different.I’m coming to agree with our scientists dislike of the securitron model. We may need to replace it with something more practical at some point, but I digress.The purpose of human infantry in our military should be to handle situations too complicated or difficult for our robotic forces. You may not believe such situations exist, but as of yet the human brain still makes decisions faster.However that only works if our troops are trained to extremely high levels. In game terms if they have high levels, appropriate perks for their roles, and very high skill ratings.I envision 4-5 person teams deployed as “troubleshooters”. Their roles to roughly correspond to the traditional fire team model. One leader, two riflemen, one automatic rifleman.But, our people are definitely assets requiring protection, and four people don’t project enough force by themselves.My solution is stolen straight out of Appleseed. Landmates are essentially large frame power armor. Using magnetic ferrofluid bearings allows the joints to operate frictionlessly, seal themselves against contamination, AND provide shock absorption. It’s also cheap and easy to manufacture. Pumping systems can also likewise use ferrofluid pumps and hydraulics to move fluids without bulky pumps. Original designs can use hydraulic and other means of mimicking movement. But it would be better all around to switch to “muscles” made out of carbon fiber yarn. Not only are they quicker and much stronger they have the added advantage of being like unto armor themselves. Power can come from either capacitor banks of alien batteries (ideally charged for 1-2 months of combat) with an emergency portal uplink for recharging, or fusion cells.The result is a tall power armor capable of warfare in urban and other environments that can run at 60-80 mph, uses conventional and heavy weaponry, and is agile enough to perform ballet.Concerning squad roles. Squad designated marksman and anti vehicle are likely to be rolled into one function due to high powered Gauss Sniper Rifles or similar Laser tech.Similarly your automatic rifleman is likely toting heavy weaponry and can double as indirect fire support.Riflemen are likely equipped with the new disintegration rifle at cannon sizes. Meaning they have enough firepower to contribute meaningfully against any enemy out to the effective range.Your Leader would receive extra sensory equipment, commas equipment, and uplinks to any nearby TACT for robotic fire support and air support.There was more to this, but you can extrapolate off the basic idea.Engineering specialist with replicators capable of building outposts.
>>2005251>its still requires much less knowledge to build the bridges and roads of rome than it is to be a combination electrical, civil and mechanical engineer like you want them to be.Yet we managed to educate multiple squads of soldiers with no experience in those fields to sufficient levels to classify them as engineers in a single month (At most!).>Engineering isnt easy. Especially multidisciplinary engineering. That is a lot of time spent on it, rather than being a more effective soldier.A month (At most!) is a lot of time? >Yes. Because currently engineers are our only specialists. As we expand the capabilities and introduce more specialist streams we will not be able to maintain soldiers who are both engineers and highly trained spec ops.Why?>Drills form habits, and habits save lives. The more thought a soldier puts before acting the worse. And practice makes perfect, especially in high stress situations where people often revert to what they know.Yeah and you just completely failed to answer what I said. The things you want them to "drill" are shit that are never automatic responses. They are complex things. Ignoring hand to hand but generally that is simplified by focusing on a style or two.>Regular soldiers learning engineering is different from combat specialists learning engineering and being spec ops at the same time.Well seeing as that is what I want, I couldn't give a damn. I want our troops, the ones we actually have rather than your entirely fictional and theoretical "wunderSoldat" since we ain't going to be doing shit with them until we are actually at war.>Even if they are only slightly less able because they learned engineering, it isnt worth it because they should be soldiers first.No. If we can get 15% more out of them by having them building shit during their downtime (our engineers ENJOY construction and thus don't do ordinary entertainment so they'd do it during their free hours) at the cost of a 2% reduction in combat effectiveness, I'll take it happily. Since every factory, house, power plant and road they make is one step closer to being a true nation.
>>2005272>Its the standards that they have to achieve which makes a difference. Where a regular soldier should be hitting a person at 100 m or whatever, a spec ops guy should be doing 150. Which again, is a nonissue with what our newest weapons allow us to achieve. Completely accurate fire under the control of a human with little experience.>We also have to teach independent thinking, and how to operate cut of from command. Because spec ops will be cut off at some point, but back line combat engineers wont.And your logic is that you can teach independent thinking by drilling them endlessly? Rather than, say, teaching them to think on their feet for a solution to an engineering problem?>Build guns so they can easily taken apart into a couple largish pieces, and give people a lot of spares. So you'd have every troop in the field carry a spare rifle at a minimum? Assuming a rifle weighs even as little as 8 pounds, 0.8 lighter than a M16 , you'd have our troops carrying two of the things which is an insane amount of weight no matter how you look at it, seeing as that fails to account for ammo, armour and so on.>Also, if you need to be an engineer to fix your gun, you wont have the resources to do so out in the field.I disagree. Given what the Courier can do to maintain his weapons and what shit like ED-E can do.>Except parts becomes an issue. Highly advance tech needs very precisely made parts. If they are cut off, no parts, no repairs. If they have parts, they aren't cut off and someone else can repair it, or they can get a new one.They could easily have a replicator within their encircled position. Not to mention the possibility of improvising a repair or replacement part or having another damaged gun.
>>2005407>continues pointless arguments instead of voting.I did vote already, >>2005232 to be precise.>I’m coming to agree with our scientists dislike of the securitron model. We may need to replace it with something more practical at some point, but I digress.I disagree. We've got nothing better to replace it for now and it is a fundamentally flawless weapon ignoring it's system of locomotion and boxy nature but both of those can be fixed by refining the design which we are in a position to do seeing as Dr. 0 has greatly lightened and refined the design meaning it should be able to handle significant modification. Personally I want to move to Tankitrons the moment we can but I feel that will only be after we've gotten replicator industry running and even then I have priorities before that sort of move.>The purpose of human infantry in our military should be to handle situations too complicated or difficult for our robotic forces. You may not believe such situations exist, but as of yet the human brain still makes decisions faster.I believe such things exist. However my solution is generally different from what you'd expect: don't get into those situations. >However that only works if our troops are trained to extremely high levels. In game terms if they have high levels, appropriate perks for their roles, and very high skill ratings.Agreed, they should be the best possible but I see no reason to support making them one-trick ponies that are a complete drain on our entire society during times of peace rather than a great soldier, far better than that of our enemies, who can assist in regards to government projects.>I envision 4-5 person teams deployed as “troubleshooters”. Their roles to roughly correspond to the traditional fire team model. One leader, two riflemen, one automatic rifleman.You seem to be missing one person there and I must protest. I feel that the current 8 man format is entirely fine, especially given that it does allow for what you are advising by splitting into it's fire-team configuration under it's officer and NCO.>But, our people are definitely assets requiring protection, and four people don’t project enough force by themselves.Agreed. Which is why I don't want us to even consider risking humans until we are far more advanced and numerous.>My solution is stolen straight out of Appleseed.Your solution shows promise but I'd point out we've got a functioning PA design already. We just need manufacturing and probably some refinement with our various technical advances.
>>2005425>Yet we managed to educate multiple squads of soldiers with no experience in those fields to sufficient levels to classify them as engineers in a single month (At most!).Its knowledge not neccessary for the performance of their essential duties and takes away their focus from what is actually important for soldiers.>Why?Because retention, and limited hours in the day to practice.>Yeah and you just completely failed to answer what I said. The things you want them to "drill" are shit that are never automatic responses. They are complex things. Ignoring hand to hand but generally that is simplified by focusing on a style or two.Its shit the modern military drills into their soldiers. Because it takes time and repetition to train soldiers not to flinch when getting shot at, or to shoot straight in high stress situations. Drills reinforce good behavior so its essentially instinctual.>No. If we can get 15% more out of them by having them building shit during their downtime (our engineers ENJOY construction and thus don't do ordinary entertainment so they'd do it during their free hours) at the cost of a 2% reduction in combat effectiveness, I'll take it happily. Since every factory, house, power plant and road they make is one step closer to being a true nationIm sorry for wanting the ARMY to be prepared for war, rather than civil service. Its kind of their purpose.
>>2005507>Concerning squad roles. First off, I'm assuming they are in your advised PA and thus able to carry superhuman amounts and shit.I understand the Squad Designated Marksman's role and understand your point but would argue that a upscaled disintegration rifle is sufficient in this role. If anything, I'd expect to see them getting a modified version of that rather than any sort of separate weapon so that, if nothing else, they share ammo and parts making it simpler to supply them.The Automatic Rifleman is something I feel could be assigned to supporting robots unless isolated entirely from our frontlines. Artillery / indirect fire is something most easily handled by a entirely robotic platform but I understand what you want from this role and can understand the need for a heavy weapon. The other Rifleman is something we agree on.The officer, I'd point out, assuming they aren't isolated from the frontlines, could access our air drone scouts for sensory equipment rather than having it mounted on his suit (this seems like it'd cause big hat syndrome and get them killed). As to communications gear and such, that is standard to our exoarmour currently I believe so it shouldn't be a problem. At most, a signal booster or something. Probably a laser designation system for support fire.>There was more to this, but you can extrapolate off the basic idea.Yeah I get the idea: big guys, big guns solving big problems on their own. I'd also say that on the scale of your PA, we approach the point whereby it might be possible for a robot version to be just as good if not better than a human in some ways but seeing as they can dismount and shit, they do have certain benefits.
>>2005457>Which again, is a nonissue with what our newest weapons allow us to achieve. Completely accurate fire under the control of a human with little experience.I want our soldiers to be able to shoot straight without computer assistance. Its kind of an important skill for them.>And your logic is that you can teach independent thinking by drilling them endlessly? Rather than, say, teaching them to think on their feet for a solution to an engineering problem?Yes. Because thats what war games are. And engineering problem solving is a different ball game. Or does puvlic speaking make you a conflict resoluter? Its both just communication after all.>So you'd have every troop in the field carry a spare rifle at a minimum? Assuming a rifle weighs even as little as 8 pounds, 0.8 lighter than a M16 , you'd have our troops carrying two of the things which is an insane amount of weight no matter how you look at it, seeing as that fails to account for ammo, armour and so on.They carry a weapon, and a side arm. Base has crates of spares, or a replicator.>I disagree. Given what the Courier can do to maintain his weapons and what shit like ED-E can do.The courier can use a pool cue to repair a chainsaw. He's not exactly a standard that everyone can achieve.>They could easily have a replicator within their encircled position. Not to mention the possibility of improvising a repair or replacement part or having another damaged gun.If they have a replicator, replicate an entire part. If theyre jury rigging, stop, because a firefight is not the time to whip out the soldering kit and start fiddling with your gun. Switch to side arm, and when the encounter is finished, loot the dead. They hopefully can shoot straight with most any weapon.
>>2005510>Its knowledge not neccessary for the performance of their essential duties and takes away their focus from what is actually important for soldiers.In your opinion.>Because retention, and limited hours in the day to practice.Which I feel we've yet to reach the limit of by any means. >Its shit the modern military drills into their soldiers. Because it takes time and repetition to train soldiers not to flinch when getting shot at, or to shoot straight in high stress situations. Drills reinforce good behavior so its essentially instinctual.Yeah and that is lovely but you aren't facing the essential point. The majority of what you think you can drill into a soldier ain't drill material. Fact is that survival methods is something someone has to think about in the situation, so it ain't drill. Unconventional warfare refers to sabotage and other such operations. Most of that shit can be split into two groups: shit they know anyway and stealth. Which they may very well know anyway. Small squad tactics I've already addressed and "psychological operations" ain't something that they'd be learning since it is a strategic level thing rather than something done by a small squad if that is your intent: it would conflict with the tactics you want them to know.>Im sorry for wanting the ARMY to be prepared for war, rather than civil service. Its kind of their purpose.There is being prepared for war and just being useless at everything else. Facts: we aren't going to be at war constantly; when we are, our troops are going to be having massive periods of downtime between their operations; ergo, they'll be draining resources; what I advise makes them more efficient.I'm sorry for wanting the army to be USEFUL rather than a fucking drain on our entire nation that slows down our growth until we get into a war which we might never thanks to them not being able to contribute and our enemies outgrowing us.
>>2005596>Yeah and that is lovely but you aren't facing the essential point. The majority of what you think you can drill into a soldier ain't drill material.You can make them practice it until they can pull the relevent information out in an instant. Like how to identify poisonous plants without stopping to think, or fjording a river without forgetting anything. There is always more practice to be done. Teach them stealth, the force them to practice. Teach them latin or some tribal language, make them practice until they are fluent without accent so they can infiltrate better. Just general things that modern spec ops train for, but to a higher standard.They should always be practicing. >Facts: we aren't going to be at war constantly; when we are, our troops are going to be having massive periods of downtime between their operations; ergo, they'll be draining resources; what I advise makes them more efficient.Thats what everyone wants, but there will always be a need to be prepared. It doesnt help us the start every war with a bunch of half assed spec ops and train them up during the war. Better to keep them in a co stant state of readyness.The point of the army is to exist when we dont need them for when ww do. Its like having a firedepartment who are all doctors. Its great, but I would prefer the doctors do doctor shit and the fire department be the best there is in fighting fire. I couldnt care less what other degrees they have.
>>2005532>I want our soldiers to be able to shoot straight without computer assistance. Its kind of an important skill for them.Fair enough. >Yes. Because that's what war games are. No, war games are very different. Focusing primarily on developing tactics, testing readiness of forces and such. Not to develop free-thinkers.>And engineering problem solving is a different ball game. Not really. >Or does public speaking make you a conflict resoluter? Its both just communication after all.Well actually yes. Seeing as conflict resolution is the skill of resolving conflict, so if you can talk to a group of strangers and confidently convince them (e,g what public speaking is) of your policies and their many benefits or any other such thing, then you'd make a decent start towards resolving a conflict.>They carry a weapon, and a side arm. Base has crates of spares, or a replicator.That doesn't help them if the squad is trapped behind enemy lines, suppressed by a distant position >The courier can use a pool cue to repair a chainsaw. He's not exactly a standard that everyone can achieve.Actually the description implies that it's something he knows that allows him to do it. So we probably could. But even ignoring that, you are being obtuse since I ain't expect that.>If they have a replicator, replicate an entire part. Possibly able to do so but what if they don't have enough energy or mass? What if the replicator doesn't have the file? There are many reasons it wouldn't be possible.>If they're jury rigging, stop, because a firefight is not the time to whip out the soldering kit and start fiddling with your gun. When did I imply that. You are talking about special forces who are clearly not going to be pulling out after a single firefight, so they'd have time after a fight to do it.>Switch to side arm, and when the encounter is finished, loot the dead. They hopefully can shoot straight with most any weapon.So your solution is to have our troops become entirely reliant on looted weapons which, against the Legion for example, wouldn't work outright?
Rolled 84, 12, 85 = 181 (3d100)Okay, I'm definitely free for the next three hours and I'm going to try and get fast updates if possible.Rolling for reasons
>>2005666>No, war games are very different. Focusing primarily on developing