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War, war never changes.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/qstarchive.html?tags=Fallout%2C+Civ%2C+Courier%2C+New+Vegas%2C+Enclave%2C+America

Last Thread
>>1854894

You are the Courier. Founding father of a new America, and a generation of children. Currently exploring with one of your companions and a mother of one your children in the expanses of montana, as you decide to dip directly into a Rad Storm.


---

WE'RE BACK

Sorry for the long hiatus. In between the Hurricane and getting robbed and doing backup homework I had to get my shit in order.

I'm going to be look back over last threads and catch up here as well.
>>
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>>1888700
You descend through the clouds, avoiding areas of thick lightning, and survey a ruined landscape below.

Giant craters pocket the earth, swirling glowing dust devils, and definite signs of life in the form of glowing deathclaws, roaming ghouls, and tiny monsters and criters below reminding you greatly of the Divide.

>Get down on foot and explore
>Explore by the air on your UFO
>Other?
>>
>>1888709
>>Explore by the air on your UFO
>>
>>1888709
>by air ubtil something promising
>>
>>1888709
Explore on foot
>>
>>1888709
>Get down on foot and explore

The possibility of running into pre-war automated AA is too high and we can beat everything mentioned by OP reliably.
>>
>>1888845
>>1888836
2 for this
>>1888772
>>1888769
2 for this
>>
I may be a bit busy today, I got the thread started to say I'm back but definitely will be getting back into the hang of proper updates soon.
>>
>>1888869

There is absolutely no need to rush. Tend to your IRL issues first and foremost, and that includes your mental health. People will still be around afterward.

Any updates on your status in the midst of all this craziness would be appreciated, though.
>>
>>1888709
>>Explore by the air on your UFO
>>
>>1888869
Glad to hear that you are still alive qm. Im sorry about your situation.
>>
>>1888709
>Explore by the air on your UFO


Also, last thread you mentioned
>For factories, it would make more sense for you to chuck in dirt, debris, etc.
Which is exactly what I am advocating for, however you also mentioned
>For stuff that can't always be able to have a conveyor belt of dirt to equal the same amount of steel, direct energy to matter would be prudent.
And I want to know what this stuff is. Are you referring to mobile bases? Can this not be accomplished by a teleporter shoveling dirt from Homebase?

Also, on the topic of portals, how much energy would a shielded portal need? In terms of resisting temperature of up to 5000K and pressures of up to 50 000 atm?
>>
>>1888923
Also very good point.
>>
>>1889205
Why do you want to make a portal in the sun? ignoring the fact getting the portal generator into the sun is beyond us right now?
>>
>>1889215
Who said anything about the sun? My idea would be to dump a shielded portal into the upper mantle of the earth, have it float near the top and siphon up matter that we dump into a huge replicator we will bring. Bonuspoint for preheated matter (slightly lower overall cost).

If that is unfeasible, we go back to the mantle drill.
>>
>>1889229
I don't think 50000 atm is survivable by anything. nor is 5000 K.
>>
Rolled 14 (1d100)

>>1889205
>And I want to know what this stuff is.
The Super Sub. Mobile Robots. Aircraft. Really things which aren't near a readily available source of crap to disintegrate.

>>1889229
Even presuming a portal like that could be sustained, that would be some potentially wacky physical effects.

>>1889017
>>1889205
>>Explore by the air on your UFO

Rollan
>>
Rolled 88 (1d100)

>>1889264
>>
>>1889264
But all of the problems of mobile bases can be overcome by adding a nifty portal and shipping stuff from back home.

As to the deep core portal, was a stretch but now I have something to work off of if ever we face shields or need to make our own. Also, with replicators, no hassle portals and FEV, THIS seems whacky to you? :D

>>1889244
Temperature is not that big a deal, especially since any metal wont be directly touching the rock. If you think on IRL fusion reactors, the European tokamak runs at 150 000 000 K. Quite a number and it still doesnt melt (although yes, the temperature is brief) The pressure is a bigger problem, although if we can visit the Mariana Trench at 1000 ATM with a steel barrel I dont see why the shielding is such a big stretch. Especially considering all the other stuff we do.
>>
>>1889284
The real question is how you'd get a portal down to mantle.
>>
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>>1889264
As you venture deeper into the radstorm, very unexpectedly the power shuts down.

Your pip boy shuts down.

EVERYTHING shuts down.

Your craft takes a hurdle down to the earth as you desperately flick switches and press buttons to no avail, and you land with an incredible thud.

You recover in a few minutes, thankfully niether you nor Sonia are hurt.

The ship appears to not be in any damage, but is unresposive. You check your pip boy, but its as if it had been turned off. Your power armor has been depowered. It weighs like a bitch, and you crawl out of the ship more than a little over encumbered.

You look around and see a curious sight indeed. On the one side, behind the ship, the wasteland and the rad storm. On the other, bizarrely, a bright blue sky with the warm sun shining down on desert sand.

There is a forest of. . .stop signs in front of you.

>What do
>Onward!
>Pull the ship back and repair it
>Look around here / other?
>>
>>1889417
disposable drill, have it disitegrate everything in front and just drop it. It is not meant to come back up again and as long as the portal works its all good. Besides, "normal" drilling breaks down where the rock becomes too malleable so it flows into the bore hole. In our case, this is just what we want. So we sacrifice a simple driller and get the portal down there, never to be retrieved again. Bonus points for being able to destroy whatever we want in a place literally nobody will find/reach.

*cough* *cough* Oddball *cough*
>>
>>1889433
>Onward!
>>
>>1889433
>>Onward!
Sneaky-like. Use low-tech weapons and paper to mark things down. Find out what in the hell can shut down all this tech and how we can weaponize it. Hard counter to BoS and the best parts of the NCR, also the better weapons of the MLA. Whatever it is, steal it, figure it out and make it into a portable weapon/doomsday device for our city. Make the desert even worse for invaders.
>>
>>1889456
This
>>
>>1889433
>Onward!
>>
>>1889456
Supporting.
>>
>>1889456
You drag your armor forward, and both of you prepare your conventional weapons.

It's very very hard to move through the stop sign forest. It turns out the sand here is very loose, theres barbed wire and mines strewn about, which you disable. It gets harder and harder until finally you make it past.

After that, surprisingly, your pip boy and power turns on again and works. You don't know what made it stop.

Up ahead in the clear sky and sunny sand, you see what looks like a single, lonely storage building rusted and aged. Surrounded by a forest of stop signs, "beware" messages, and chain link barbed wire fences and more. There are signs of vehicle tracks, and a broken part of the fence but no vehicle in sight.

>What do?
>>
>>1889680
>Sneaking time.
>>
>>1889680
Why the fuck did we leave our armor on? From someone with 10 INT it should be obvious that it slows us down. If the power problem strikes again we are fucked.

Anyway, sneak on in. Keep a silenced weapon and a knife handy for indoors, have a shotgun on standby, preferrably constantly cloak ourselves. Do not confront anything and use nonlethal takedowns (if we didnt bring our tranq gun I will flip my shit) unless we are sure they are hostile.
>>
>>1889758
Well it still is power armor and still offers the protection
>>
>>1889758
The DT is nice even when depowered, and its relatively easy to drop armor. this is mostly a game mechanic. around the courier things get very vidya-ish

>>1889691
>>1889758
Writing!
>>
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>>1889832
You sneak up to the warehouse door, entering it from the side. The door is locked, extremely so, but you pick your way through it.

What you find is, frankly, unbelieveable.

You see endless rows of boxes stacked high into the ceiling, going on and on and on.

And, though you have no way of legitimately proving it. . .it seems to be bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. None of the windows even match up with those on the outside.

It's utterly quiet, very dusty, strangely cool, and oddly the lights are on and still on so power is coming from somewhere.

You're not even sure where to begin.

>Open up a box and look at it
>Wander around this storage labrynth
>I wonder what happens if you try to poke a hole to the outside
>Other?
>>
>>1889949
>Look around for a shipping manifest or something.
>>
>>1889949
On the one hand, the ark of the covenant should be in here somewhere.


On the other hand, this entire place is filled with incredibly dangerous magical, technological and historical artifacts that we shouldn't mess with.
>>
>>1889949
>>Open up a box and look at it
WE NEED THE ARK
>>
>>1889949
>>Open up a box and look at it
>>
>>1889949

>Attempt to contact AHS-9
Let's check and see if psionic communications work in here...and what they set off. Then we'll know what boxes have interesting things.
>>
>>1890026
>Attempt to contact AHS-9
"It doesn't really work that way, at least not yet with the current design. ASH-9 sort of contacts you.

You do try, putting on your silly helmet. . .you get nothing. Nothing but strange noises and eery whispers that seem to echo. You wisely take off your helmet for now."
>>
>>1890026
Radio communications. . .everything. Even your portal technology seems to be blocked, with the obvious exception of your Tesla Coil.
>>
>>1890011
>>1890020
2 for this
>>1889962
1 for this
>>
Guys, we can almost certainly come back here later but for now let's not forget our reason for being up here in the north: we are here to locate and establish an outpost; not to mess around with this vast collection of miracles.
>>
Rolled 58 (1d100)

>>1889962
Supporting this with roll

Automated non-ai defenses probably wouldn't regard this as hostile.
>>
Gonna be busy again tonight, like I said I'll try to get back into regular postings hopefully by tomorrow
>>
Rolled 94, 97 = 191 (2d100)

>>1889962
>>1890143

>>1890011
>>1890020

Guess I'll just do both of them then
>>
>>1891850
Is this good. Or bad?
>>
>>1891850
wew lad, Is that good for us or bad?
>>
>>1891850
*sweats*
>>
>>1890083
So we get a shitty hut village instead of magitech? Dude, what even. We figure out how it works and we take advantage of it.

>>1890052
That seems awfully convenient...

It also means that we CAN communicate with BigMT, since we get signals from our brain. Realistically speaking, our brain knows what we know and on top of that, the signals move through the portal, meaning we CAN send signals back and forth through this thing. Even if radio comms dont reach outside, the portal offers a shortcut.

Nice try though.

>>1889949
Also, beeline for a control center. The manifest may give us a glimpse but real insight comes from the offices of higher ups.
>>
>>1892784
>So we get a shitty hut village instead of magitech? Dude, what even. We figure out how it works and we take advantage of it.
Oh I'm sorry I actually give a damn about our objective for being in this region over playing "roll the dice for what magical artefact you possibly get" especially when most of the shit in here is going to be useless to us.
>>
>>1892784
>That seems awfully convenient...
It does doesn't it?

Quite arbitrary and highly illogical. By all means if all things were stopped you should have gone unconscious when you hit whatever it is that took down your UFO.

Logically speaking you should be able to contact your brain, but either your brain is trying to send radio signals back and it can't reach or. . .something else is happening.

You suspect your Brain at least can hear you, although hearing your own brain is another matter.
>>
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>>1891850
>94
Before you even begin your search, you look around your immediate area.

Not surprisingly you find a skeleton. This one appears to not be Old World, but a scavenger or perhaps a Raider, with a pip-boy and some holotapes.

Listening to the tapes and reading the journal, you hear of his gruesome tale. Evidently he was part of a Raider party that broke into the warehouse in search of loot and treasure. Loot and treasure they found indeed, but more than they bargained for.

They too, like you, ventured in deeper to find a shipping manifest or some sort of archive catalog to tell them where everything is. All the boxes are marked in numbers and encrypted barcodes, surely out there must be something to detail where things are and what is inside a box before you open it.

The importance of this is made clear when one of their party opened up a box, and was killed in a horrific manner, evidently something decided to enter his belly and eat him from the inside out.

After that, the team realized they were lost. Days turned into weeks of searching for the way they came back, efforts to make some damage marks or leave trails seemed to be foiled: damage mysteriously repaired itself, or the trail of thread they left behind became tangle with a different trail of thread from a separate party.

Until he was the last man standing. Trying to survive, living off of rats or whatever cans of what he can only presume is food.

Poor fellow died of exhaustion, having finally found the exit where you are right now.
>>
>>1893079
Yeah, no. We ain't going anywhere near this place any time soon. Take his shit, go back out and get our scout-ship back in the air.
>>
>>1893105
We're the goddamned Courier, and you're worried about what did a Raider in?

If we can't tackle places like this then we'll just fall victim to the people who can.
>>
>>1893155
He had a pipboy map. Assuming they had half a brain, getting lost and dead in a bulding you have a map of seems like something fucky is going on. I say leave this be until we can properly prepare.
>>
>>1893176
For sure something fucky is going on, but my wager is that whatever fucky is going on hasn't met someone Courier-tier yet. And I feel that's a perfectly reasonable wager.
>>
>>1893176
>>1893105

This is NOT all that different from venturing into, say, a parasitic plant infested Vault or something. We shouldn't get scared and leave just because we can't see the source of the danger immediately.
>>
>>1893155
>>1893189
>>1893184
We are talking about a place that they couldn't navigate with any method availible to us and fact is this guy was at it for quite some time and he managed to die before escaping.

Even if, IF, we could actually get through this place that doesn't change the fact it'd take far too long in my opinion. Not to mention the risk of running into some insanely deadly artefact like his group did.


This place is secure, we can come back later when we have more resources but for now we can't get side-tracked.
>>
>>1893079
Nah senpai, we're going in deep and hard
>>
>>1893245
>Some insanely deadly artifact
It killed some raiders, that's a joke.

We're also capable of living for weeks on practically nothing, unlike the raiders.

I can't believe anons are being such pussies and getting spooked over this shit. If I ever had to defend against the courier, clearly all I need is an EMP field, Communications Jamming Tech, a skeletal corpse w/ pipboy, and to write a vaguely threatening story about starvation and put it near the skeleton.

Okay, I'll admit skeletons are always super spooky tho.
>>
>>1893352
>It killed some raiders, that's a joke.
They opened the crate it was in and died. Like fuck I want to risk that.

>We're also capable of living for weeks on practically nothing, unlike the raiders.
Now you are pulling shit out your ass.

>If I ever had to defend against the courier, clearly all I need is an EMP field, Communications Jamming Tech, a skeletal corpse w/ pipboy, and to write a vaguely threatening story about starvation and put it near the skeleton.
No, you'd also need to hide in the middle of a spatial-compression field that also shifts entire regions like a box of lego. Then no one would attempt to get to you but you couldn't get out.


Or are you implying we have some magical way of walking into this warehouse of ever-shifting paths and getting out any time soon?
>>
>>1893079
I know what your basing this off QM or atleast I think I do. You worry me
>>
>>1893382
>
The importance of this is made clear when one of their party opened up a box, and was killed in a horrific manner, evidently something decided to enter his belly and eat him from the inside out.
One. Something killed ONE of them. Oh how terrifying.

I can't recall the last time my Courier ate anything, in fact I believe I can go through the entire game without eating, sleeping, drinking, or relieving myself once. Accordingly, the Courier can manage the same.

I doubt it'll take more than a month to get out of here (and we've alotted 1 turn to this search). Even if it does all we do is have to use next turn's hero action to continue searching for a base out here. That's not a big deal.

In sum I don't think we're in any existential danger and a moderate delay does not realistically impede progress on any of our objects as opposed to the possible gains of figuring this place out.
>>
>>1893419
>I can't recall the last time my Courier ate anything, in fact I believe I can go through the entire game without eating, sleeping, drinking, or relieving myself once. Accordingly, the Courier can manage the same.
Mate, this ain't a game. Else we could just load up with enough healing powder and survive walking through machinegun fire.

>I doubt it'll take more than a month to get out of here (and we've alotted 1 turn to this search). Even if it does all we do is have to use next turn's hero action to continue searching for a base out here. That's not a big deal.
It is a major delay in terms of getting resources up north and bases / projects underway.

>In sum I don't think we're in any existential danger and a moderate delay does not realistically impede progress on any of our objects as opposed to the possible gains of figuring this place out.
So you don't think that wandering into this place will end horribly? Cause I do. I'd rather we send in teams of random fucks and prisoners later when we have expendable people (the north has plenty of raider bands we can use).

Plus, what do you expect to find in here? What miracle do you really want to find? How do you plan on getting it out of here anytime soon? Where and how would you make use of it?
>>
>>1893419
Did you play survival? It doesn't sound like it.

Do we carry 1 month's worth of water? because 1 month in a labyrinth can be plenty fatal even without dangerous things lurking around.

I think we should leave, and once we have control over the surrounding area, then investigate more thoroughly. Get a kit made specifically for maze running.
>>
>>1893062
Thats cheap man. THIS is what people complain about.

>>1893058
So you wanna go play barbies over pillaging/securing valuable loot? Nope.

>>1893352
This anon gets it.

>>1893079
Continue on, find a control room/secret radiofuckery center and figure it out. Dont open boxes and try to survey the area. If need be, go along one wall to not get lost, climb high to have a vantage point.
>>
>>1893502
It's either that or the courier goes brain dead, so I could forgive it.
>>
>>1893462
What use would securing the area give us inside the building. Moreover, what would constitute a "maze kit" that we dont already have on us? Seeing as radio, portal and other crap doesnt work, we really are as equipped as we are going to be. Going in now is the best course of action and its not going to get better.
>>
>>1893513
OR, portals work. Also, we should have an indication that the portal is fluttering so we know shit is fucked up.

The issue is not that we cant do it, but that the ruling is so arbitrary it hurts. If anything technical is fucked here, we would need to equip our brain and come back (which is fine and makes sense, in contrast to our brainportal being the only thing that works and that too is "magically" not 100% right now).
>>
>>1893440
Well yes, we basically do load up on stimpacks and survive walking through machinegun fire. It's been outright stated that the Courier runs on pseudo-videogame logic. We in fact survived machine-gun grenade fire when we decided to go against Elijah in the middle of his fortress, it was only Liquid Condensed Cloud and running out of stimpacks that made us finally have to retreat (though the whole thing was retarded anyhow).
>>
>>1893502
>So you wanna go play barbies over pillaging/securing valuable loot? Nope.
Fuck you. Up until now I thought we were actually having a reasonable discussion but now I see you are just going to be a cunt.
>>
>>1893519
Securing the position prevents people from stealing whatever stuff we leave behind. A month is a long time for raiders to come along and scavenge our saucer into little pieces. It also prevents other people from entering the maze and messing things up.

Markers, chalk, rope, water, glow sticks, food, things like that.
>>
>>1893440
>What miracle do you really want to find?
How about the "No-tech" field? Doesnt seem useful to you?? Or the miriad of tech and artefacts? What about the bigger-on-the-inside phenomenon? A tiny driller bot that splurges out thousands of bots doesnt entice you??

There is so much valuable shit here its stupid. I am sure QM wont let us have anywhere near what we should but even then this is bonkers useful. And you want a base here? What better place could there be?? We figure out how to control the no-tech field and we have an unassailable Haven in a radstorm. Add teleporters and you have a way to project power without being in danger. How can you not see the uses here??
>>
>>1893540
Nobody has been here in a long while, the only other thing here is a dead raider, there is a radstorm outside and if anybody wants to looot anything they die. How much more safe do you want this??

Also, all the stuff you mentioned we either have or doesnt work. There is literally nothing we could get that would change anything. Stop being a pansy and seize the chance!
>>
>>1893535
Ok, I overstepped my bounds. I apologize. However, you have to realize this is far more valuable than a shitty shack in the mddle of nowhere. Moreover, this is a perfect location for a base.
>>
>>1893571
It has to come from somewhere and something has to be creating it. I dont expect us to copy-paste the thing but I do expect the Courier to be able to take control of it here.

The radstorm is an extra layer around this place. Considering there are blue skies around us it is not unreasonable to assume it has an effect on it. The point was mainly that people dont go into radstorms for fun and anyone that does want to find us has to brave it and the beast within. Meaning, even before you get to the fuckoff tech barrier to have to cross a FUCKOFF radstorm with raddeathclaws and radscorpions and whateer else. Meaning, this place is secure.
>>
>>1893552
No-tech field just sounds unweildy. Impossible to study, impossible to use in conjunction with our army. and it's possible other phenomena are responsible for the rad storms. You also assume we can replicate anything that is going on here, and it isn't just one of those "mysteries of the universe, doesn't make sense" type things.

>>1893564
Obviously people come here every so often for loot and die for it. But they won't ignore the literal flying saucer sitting outside the death warehouse.Leaving the saucer sitting around, is a risk that we have to take into consideration.

The field works on technology. I purposely didn't include any technology in the list. Just specialized spelunking type equipment.
>>
>>1893598
Considering that all our stuff shut down and the reactivated some distance later means it can be controlled and altered (seeing as radio is still out but the pipboy works now). This means it could be projected in shapes and sizes (a wall of fuck you in front of our robot lines, the enemy armor shutting down before tankitrons open up full force, rather useful no?).

As to the saucer, yes, that is a concern. However, nobody will be towing it out of here and nobody will be breaking in (and if we didnt lock the thing My god QM).

As to the twine and chalk, the raiders used it, didnt work for shit ergo useless to us as well. Again, nothing we need that we dont have with us now. Lets move on now.
>>
>>1893552
>How about the "No-tech" field? Doesnt seem useful to you?
If we were the Legion, then yes. Seeing as we rely on robots and other such methods, not really.

>Or the miriad of tech and artefacts?
Most of them are either situational as hell, expensive as hell or unwieldy as hell.

>What about the bigger-on-the-inside phenomenon? A tiny driller bot that splurges out thousands of bots doesnt entice you?
Assuming we could actually sustain it on such a craft, maybe but I'd rather just use teleportation.

>And you want a base here? What better place could there be?
Somewhere that technology works and that robots can come and go from without going offline.

>>1893568
Thanks for the apology but I disagree.
>>
>>1893645
Seeing as the field can be altered in intensity by region it stands to reason it can be made to suit our needs. Thus most of the problems with this place fall away and become boons instead.

As to spookyscary boxes, we dont have to use every one but seeing as there are tens of thousands of boxes there is a statistical certainty that many of them will be actively useful. Whether alien tech, psycic McGuffins or interesting biotech, it is useful all round. AND it offers something to throw at our enemies (one of those worms in Oddballs office as a gift, for example).

The we make our building bigger on the inside. So while NW looks as big as a pop of 1000, it actually houses tens of thousands and all the robotics facilities we could ever want. Easier to defend a smaller area of space and all that.

With a base here and portals to select surrounding areas we have a secure location for free. If you want a fortified location outside, build one from hexcrete and conect it to the warehouse. It has all the space we need and you would never expect a robot army from a 2-story 100squaremeter house.
>>
>warehouse 13
...

make note of its location, gather a team of scientists, make sure we have their DNA record, equip them with 2 years worth of food and water and drop them off with instructions to perform routine monthly brain scans. communication to be handled by physical storage walked out to a small outpost outside the event perimeter.

in case of inevitable fuck up activate and flash train replacement clones.
>>
>>1893747
We definitely SHOULD go SCP on this place but lets take control of it first.
>>
>>1893760
You don't seem to understand. This guy >>1893747 is how you take control of it.
>>
>>1893770
We are here, we are far more able to do the job and FAR more likely to not only survive but succeed. You are irrationally afraid of this.
>>
>>1893787

>point out how you maintain and control the place via with another anon said
>You are irrationally afraid of this.

I don't know who the fuck you think you are addressing but it sure as fuck isn't me because this isn't fear, I don't want some half-ass job. I want this done properly and we don't have the time to sit around kicking back in a warehouse that can change its size and shit when we need to beat out the Legion, MLA and NCR into this state with its possibly untapped resources. Make sense?
>>
>>1893807
If you read what I have written, you will realize I am advocating for the PC to get to the heart of this place and take control. Not to go spelunking around the crates for the next 10 years.

So again, WE GO DO THIS NOW and have underlings catalogue the crap after we take control of the notech barrier (or shut it down at least) and make sure we have it for ourselves.

Dont get so uppity.
>>
>>1893682
>Seeing as the field can be altered in intensity by region it stands to reason it can be made to suit our needs. Thus most of the problems with this place fall away and become boons instead.
Except you have nothing to base this assertion on. Beyond your belief that it is something we can control rather than a property of a artefact or the region itself.

>As to spookyscary boxes, we dont have to use every one but seeing as there are tens of thousands of boxes there is a statistical certainty that many of them will be actively useful. Whether alien tech, psycic McGuffins or interesting biotech, it is useful all round. AND it offers something to throw at our enemies (one of those worms in Oddballs office as a gift, for example).
There is also a statistical certainty that somewhere within this place are dozens of artefacts that will kill us horribly.

>The we make our building bigger on the inside. So while NW looks as big as a pop of 1000, it actually houses tens of thousands and all the robotics facilities we could ever want. Easier to defend a smaller area of space and all that.
That fails to solve the innate problem we are having, of a lack of water to sustain such a population.

>With a base here and portals to select surrounding areas we have a secure location for free. If you want a fortified location outside, build one from hexcrete and conect it to the warehouse. It has all the space we need and you would never expect a robot army from a 2-story 100squaremeter house.
True but that is many more portals than we otherwise need and I'd point out that this place has no large power supply to sustain a portal that we know of or can easily access.

>>1893747
Essentially my plan. Leave it be for now and then once we have control of the region establish every countermeasure, safeguard and quarantine protocol possible along with using purely expendable assets like criminals and POW's for on the ground labour, lead by a few scientific supervisors.

>>1893807
Essentially, this. Plus I'd rather not risk the Courier getting killed by something in here which we can entirely avoid. Especially when we have higher priorities to take care of than some potential wunderweapons in these crates, like getting a base set up and beginning to claim the region.
>>
>>1893825
>If you read what I have written, you will realize I am advocating for the PC to get to the heart of this place and take control. Not to go spelunking around the crates for the next 10 years.
I think you are misunderstand our point: if we wander about in here we could be lost forever even if your goal is just to go to the command centre.
>>
>>1893825
>Dont get so uppity.
>Calls me irrational because I want things done properly and not half assed.

Alright Anon, You do you. Because it seems you lack the ability to understand my point.
>>
Let's just have a vote and get on with it. No one is going to succeed changing other one's opinion.
>>
>>1893844
Pshh. Everyone knows you can solve any labyrinth with the right hand rule.
It would be /super/ easy to get to the center of this magically shifting warehouse and take control. Probably just a button labelled take control somewhere.
>>
>>1893861
The fact that I agree with your assessment saddens me greatly but I suppose we must accept the immobility of both sides opinions in this case.
>>
>>1893828
>Except you have nothing to base this assertion on. Beyond your belief that it is something we can control rather than a property of a artefact or the region itself.
So both of us are assuming things. I guess we have to go have a look and find out then.

>>1893828
>There is also a statistical certainty that somewhere within this place are dozens of artefacts that will kill us horribly.
Yes, and we will not open crates randomly. Dont assume I want to suicide us.

>>1893828
>That fails to solve the innate problem we are having, of a lack of water to sustain such a population.
Then we make water tanks that are bigger on the inside, directly portal water from the ocean or make water from rock with our replicators. Can you really not imagine new and interesting ways this tech could be used?? You are playing in a Fallout Quest for crying out loud!

>>1893828
>True but that is many more portals than we otherwise need and I'd point out that this place has no large power supply to sustain a portal that we know of or can easily access.
Power from back home and the warehouse is a valuable asset unto itself. we need to get this now.

>>1893828
>Leave it be for now
Have you noticed how, every time we "leave to come back later" shit gets progressively harder for us? Alsmost as if QM is countering our preparation by GM fuckery? "Vault metal walls" still piss me off and the Marked Men magically organizing is another fine example of this.

>>1893828
>Essentially, this. Plus I'd rather not risk the Courier getting killed by something in here which we can entirely avoid. Especially when we have higher priorities to take care of than some potential wunderweapons in these crates, like getting a base set up and beginning to claim the region.
Again, this is THE BEST base around. We will add portals anyway and we will not open crates "fortehlulz".
>>
>>1893861
>Let's just have a vote and get on with it. No one is going to succeed changing other one's opinion.
Agreed.

>>1893874
>but I suppose we must accept the immobility of both sides opinions in this case.
The Backfire Effect is clearly displayed here. What is interesting is that I explain myself as logical and ambitious while I view the opposite side as cowarldy based on fear of what might go wrong instead of thinking what might be achieved. How is it for you anons?

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Backfire_effect
>>
>>1893892
Does the fact that someone agrees with you make you more sure of your position irregardless of concerns raised or arguments given?
>>
>>1893892
personally I feel the Warehouse is a gigantic clusterfuck of potentially deadly time wasters. we could waste dozens of hero actions wandering around, or we could clone a science and security team to wander around for us. will some of them die? probably. But there are more important things for the Courier to do.
>>
>>1893876
>So both of us are assuming things. I guess we have to go have a look and find out then.
I believe it could be any number of things, that you or I might be right but I feel that no matter what it won't be of any use to us in immediate terms.

>Yes, and we will not open crates randomly. Dont assume I want to suicide us.
Yet you willingly walk into an ever-shifting maze where no method of navigation works.

>Then we make water tanks that are bigger on the inside, directly portal water from the ocean or make water from rock with our replicators.
I don't disagree that those are, incredibly inefficient (you are talking about teleportation of huge amounts of water constantly and replicating similar masses of water), possible solutions but fact is that I was pointing out how your "solution" solves nothing in regards to those problems.

>Can you really not imagine new and interesting ways this tech could be used? You are playing in a Fallout Quest for crying out loud!
I can but none are worth investing in or researching in my opinion compared to more conventional methods.

>Power from back home and the warehouse is a valuable asset unto itself.
Power from back home how? Teleported? Well we've not tested the concept and it'd be insanely expensive.

>we need to get this now.
We really don't.

>Have you noticed how, every time we "leave to come back later" shit gets progressively harder for us? Alsmost as if QM is countering our preparation by GM fuckery? "Vault metal walls" still piss me off and the Marked Men magically organizing is another fine example of this.
To be entirely frank and plain, I agree that he has pulled some truly insane bullshit but I don't see how he can pull that here.

>Again, this is THE BEST base around. We will add portals anyway and we will not open crates "fortehlulz".
This "best base" that we can't send robots out from and can't navigate the inside of? I'd hate to see what the worst is like.

>>1893892
>What is interesting is that I explain myself as logical and ambitious while I view the opposite side as cowardly based on fear of what might go wrong instead of thinking what might be achieved. How is it for you anons?
I see you as ambitious in the same way as Icarus. You are taking unneeded risks and ignoring the original goal. Logical however? Not really, I see your reasoning but I feel that you underestimate the potential danger and time needed for this.

I just want to fulfil the goal of us being here, establishing a base in the north for further expansion, and to not get side-tracked by this place. I don't care about what rewards we might lose out on or however much you feel we could gain because I feel this place is secure from other groups that could threaten us for now and that we should fulfil our original goal. I see my proposed actions as logical and cautious. Focused on our mission.
>>
>>1893985
Very well. I see this argument is going nowhere fast and we need QM to sort this shit out. However, I do urge you to take into account QM fuckery when it comes to easily abusable concepts (like portals, replicators and so on). In the past QM has fucked us in random ways when an easy "WIN" button has presented itself. This is why I feel we must take all valuables we can as soon as we can before QM finds a way to weasel us out of it (Sanctuary was a perfect example of what we gain if we act agressively and without undue moral qualms, while the Divide and Sierra Madre are examples of when we dont).

I simply fear that when QM realizes what he has given us he will take it away to "balance it out". And that pisses me off something bad. As it does you, I see.
>>
>>1894082
I understand your position and sympathise but I also know that if QM feels the need to balance this place out, he can just unleash a crate on us or something.


Fact is this is why I personally focus on simple things. More bases, people factories and numbers rather than miracle technologies and such.
>>
>>1894119
But this is exactly the opposite of our strenghts. We build tall and high-tech. We can never out industry the NCR, the BoS or even the MLA. We have to use clever tactics and weapons the enemy lacks/has no counter to to ensure victory. This is why immortal necron warriors, Technoplagues and flying doomsday fortresses are our goal. If we go line fight anybody we lose so hard its not even funny. I dont know if QM has tought this through but he is enticing us to go low tech while punishing magitech or use of advanced techs (think about the clusterfuck around the replicator orthe thread-long debate before we could lose the fissile requiremet around them.
>>
>>1894206
Nah, see you misunderstand. My plan ain't to invest in space lasers or nuclear weapons or even in Tankitrons for the most part besides a few hundered to act as a spearhead / elite force.


My plan? Maintain our current tech level, as it is superior to the NCR (majorly) and BOS (slightly) and focus on expansion, industrialisation and such.Fact is we have went in four years from a un-industrialised state into a fairly powerful one. Given another few years I can guarantee our industry will rival the NCR's current capacity at least. Especially as we gain more and more of Montana along with the Legion and whatever we can grab from the MLA. The manpower of these two regions along with their resources will allow for such industrial projects along with whatever we can reclaim of the pre-war world.

Then it's a matter of divide and conquer, personally I'd argue we should just maintain a focus on expanding further and further out towards the south, east, west and even north until we control as much of the world as possible (and potential get a space station / lunar mission underway) but I get the feeling that most want to defeat the BOS / NCR ASAP.
>>
>>1894302
But we specialize into /research/ not into manufacturing. Our whole society is based around it, in fact. Why would we change tact when we're not really even close to a research ceiling anywhere?
>>
>>1894302
I dont think you realize what a nation of 2+million people under a common cause can do VS 200 with some robots. In any real sense they will out-grow us easily if we go by factories built. Easily if we go by infrastructure.

If you remeber how they built up the Boneyard from nothing into a powerhouse with multiple steel foundries, roads houses, flowing water and so on. Not to mention the fortifications and this is just one place. Seeing how much manpower they can throw around we will lose. Its not even a contest. And if you think the jokels from Montana can come anywhere near that scale of efficient workforce you are mistaken. What you are suggesting is a use of local manpower to build up until we can go robot from there. This means while we try to educate the plebs on construction, the NCR has added 4 foundries to their nation and expanded everything else (this includes schools, roads, waterworks and so on). They went from no cars to lots of new ones in 4 years. This is a mad level of progress (Mary Sue levels, in fact) and if you think we can come close with untrained organic workers you have been sorely mislead. Unless we bridge the growth cap with superior tech and methods we are fucked. Whether this be replicating robots from dirt (FAR quicker than refining ore or resmelting scrap), finding better ways to protect our bots to pull the force multiplier in our favor (1 shielded tankbot is worth many more unshielded footmen with AKs) or coming up with something they cant counter (subdrillers with explosives guided by stealt assaultrons to destabilize the NCR industry).
>>
>>1894356
Because it ain't changing tact. Fact is that educating any expansion to our society as researchers and shit even with all of our technology could take years (I'm thinking six to eight at least) but during that time they can still do shit in construction and shit.

>>1894401
>I don't think you realise what a nation of 2+million people under a common cause can do VS 200 with some robots. In any real sense they will out-grow us easily if we go by factories built. Easily if we go by infrastructure.
Not really. Seeing as it won't be 200 with some robots but rather 20,000+ (seriously I expect much more) with a fuck ton of robots. Not to mention the efforts of the MLA weakening the NCR makes it a bit of a closer fight if nothing else.

>If you remember how they built up the Boneyard from nothing into a powerhouse with multiple steel foundries, roads houses, flowing water and so on.
Boneyard had steel foundries years ago. It is mentioned in game.

>Not to mention the fortifications and this is just one place.
Which is what they were doing to train their population up in construction work.

>Seeing how much manpower they can throw around we will lose. Its not even a contest.
So you feel that we will win by making wonder weapons? Then you are insane.

>And if you think the yokels from Montana can come anywhere near that scale of efficient workforce you are mistaken. What you are suggesting is a use of local manpower to build up until we can go robot from there. This means while we try to educate the plebs on construction, the NCR has added 4 foundries to their nation and expanded everything else (this includes schools, roads, waterworks and so on).
Trust me, you are underestimating how much we can do with them and overestimating how much the NCR can do.
>>
>>1894487
>They went from no cars to lots of new ones in 4 years.
Actually we've got no reason to believe that true, we've only been to the big cities. It is true however they have produced at least a few thousand which as I have said previously, feels like bullshit.

>This is a mad level of progress (Mary Sue levels, in fact) and if you think we can come close with untrained organic workers you have been sorely mislead.
Our troops were made into engineers with a simple set of eye augments and a few weeks of training. I feel we can get most of such a group of organic workers trained as welders and such just as quick if not quicker.

>Unless we bridge the growth cap with superior tech and methods we are fucked. Whether this be replicating robots from dirt (FAR quicker than refining ore or remelting scrap), finding better ways to protect our bots to pull the force multiplier in our favour (1 shielded tank-bot is worth many more unshielded footmen with AKs) or coming up with something they cant counter (sub-drillers with explosives guided by stealth assaultrons to destabilise the NCR industry).
It was stated when we visited the NCR in the Boneyard that we could double their output with our technology. There's your superiority. As to all the rest of that, what ever implied I wouldn't want to sabotage their shit? I've been advocating it for quite some time and I'd point out we don't have any sorts of shields currently. As to tank-bots specifically, I'd point out that I still want to use them but for now they aren't something we can readily produce thanks to their entirely replicated nature. Compared to most other robots we make use of but when we have sufficient power and non-fissile replication capacity I'd probably make more use of them but honestly since I can't do a raw numbers comparison of effectiveness I don't trust them.
>>
>>1894487
> Fact is that educating any expansion to our society as researchers and shit even with all of our technology could take years (I'm thinking six to eight at least) but during that time they can still do shit in construction and shit.
This sentence structure should've been reworked, it wasn't very clear what you were trying to say.

Construction is more efficiently performed by bots. Accordingly about the only productive thing any newly incorporated folks could do is go about educating themselves up to researcher standards.
>>
>>1894506
Not really.

Fact is that a large portion of our construction capacity comes from our organics like Miles and our engineer infantry squads. Also even if construction can be performed more efficiently I never implied we wouldn't be making use of them but rather that we would be making use of humans as well since they can be made to perform simple labour like digging, welding, hammering and such with minimal training.
>>
>>1894487
Dude, are you seriously this bad at math?? 2 MILLION people, who live and breathe for the country and who are near totally behind the goals of said country. WE CANT OUT INDUSTRY them. How do you suppose we can make more factories?? How do you propose to educate 20 000 people in any menaingful time (keep in mind the biggest know-how they have is shooting and farming).

You have got to face reality here. If we try to beat the NCR on their field we lose. No contest. You HAVE to realize we are behind in industry and ahead in tech. As >>1894356 said, tech is the only thing going for us and you want to disregard it?? What even.

As I mentioned, we can compensate for our small size by going quality and high-tech. Fully realized replicator tech, near-invulnerable bots and hightech weapons are the only way we can take down a giant like the NCR. Not by building a few factories in bumfuck nowhere.
>>
>>1894526
Are you really this dense you dont get WHY we have digging and welding machines?? Or do you think we can turn every one of the 20k idiots into engineers and then MAGICALLY conjure up enough machines to make use of them??

Guess what, Miles doesnt dig anything, he has bots do it, so your argumentation is shit here.

>>1894506
You have it correct. Unless we go full replicators and badass bots we will never reach NCR military levels in time.
>>
>>1894534
We can and I am certain of this. If anything I feel that trying to do as you advise is the insane option.

Also, stop with the double question marks. It makes you seem like a four year old.
>>
>>1894546
So you "are certain"? Oh well great then, no more complaints form me.

Seriously, THIS is the argument you have?

And the double marks are to express my dibelief at your density, which you obviously flaunt wildly.
>>
>>1894526
Well that's what I mean, our Engineer Infantry Squads and such are all educated people. The sorts of tasks that uneducated/unskilled folks can do are pretty much all done better by bots.
>>
>>1894545
>Are you really this dense you dont get WHY we have digging and welding machines?
Because we built construction robots. Because we lacked the population.

>Or do you think we can turn every one of the 20k idiots into engineers
Firstly, you assume they are idiots.

As to rendering them into engineers, yeah I feel it is entirely possible. Given our technology and shit.

>and then MAGICALLY conjure up enough machines to make use of them?
Well, seeing as the dumb labour (along with increasing amounts of the complex jobs) would be taken care of, we'd need far fewer robots and they could be focused into harder / more complex jobs.

As to producing enough robots, that is something we can almost certainly do given that our restraint up until now had been everything but them. However I'd also point out that OP mentioned that we should be trying to get from the town level actions to the nation-state level actions ASAP. No easier way than massive increase in population and industry in my opinion.

>>1894574
I've made my case, I've presented logical arguments and in universe examples. Proof if you want another name. Yet you continue to act like this and I see no reason to prolong a inevitable conclusion: you and I fundamentally disagree and can't resolve this without OP declaring who is right.

>>1894584
>Well that's what I mean, our Engineer Infantry Squads and such are all educated people
Yeah, they can read, write, do math and that is about it. Not exactly a bachelor's degree or anything.

>The sorts of tasks that uneducated/unskilled folks can do are pretty much all done better by bots.
Yeah, and? You say that as if that is some great revelation to me. These roles would be filled better by robots but we would have spare population to fulfil them far more readily at first while they learn skills.
>>
>>1894624
>Yeah, they can read, write, do math and that is about it. Not exactly a bachelor's degree or anything.
They're members of the Engineer Corps we just founded. I'd wager it's a bit more intensive that what you're suggesting.

>Yeah, and? You say that as if that is some great revelation to me. These roles would be filled better by robots but we would have spare population to fulfil them far more readily at first while they learn skills.
I'm pointing out that you're wrong. They're essentially useless to us until they've acquired education/skills that grant them abilities beyond what basic robots can do, because we can shit out robots en masse and at will provided access to resources (which we have, right now).

So when you say folks can be put to work doing things while they develop skills I'm saying that developing skills is the only work they can really do that's valuable to us.
>>
>>1894624
My God. You are one dense motherfucker, aintya? How many people do you think are needed to equal a bulldozer with a 2 ton bucket? How many men are needed to lift a 3 ton section of wall to the third floor? The number of machines needed is one, by the way. Your idea of manpower is ridiculous. Moreover, seeing as we are having trouble educating farmers who have lived with us for years I dont see us educating the jokels in 5 years, let alone one.

As to your "proof", it literally boils down to >>1894546
>I feel
And that is francly not proof. You assume that medieval techniques equal modern construction machines and that is one of the dumbest things I have heard in a long time. You know how long it took to make churches in medieval times? CENTURIES.
>>
>>1893079
>97
In the dead man's hand, you find a mysterious compass. It doesn't point north, but strangely when you think of the "exit" it points toward the exit.

Somewhat. It likes to jiggle around a lot.

In addition to the Compass, he has on his body some items near himself.

A decorative yet sturdy wooden box. On it is carved an unfamiliar language, an image of a man wearing a big white round hat with a small red part on top, and a crescent and star. Inside of it amazingly, you find ammunition for the weapons you are holding!

An inedible golden apple was found in his mouth, evidently he tried to bite it. Its shiny and nice, and made of gold. Sonia says it looks pretty.

An old Fedora and Cigar. Seems to only been smoked lightly.

A sledgehammer with the letters "J. H." on it.

A Wright Bicycles (tm) bicycle.

An empty black pot, seems to be made of crude pig iron.

----

>Keep looking around these boxes
>Explore!
>Go back, we have other priorities.
>Other?
>>
>>1894649
>developing skills is the only work they can really do that's valuable to us
YES, you get it.
>>1894624
You should also get this!
>>
>>1894674
>Keep looking around these boxes
>>
>>1894674
ALSO
>Inspect some of the items further? Closer detail?
>>
>>1894674
>>Explore!
Think about control room, secret chamber, foremans office, power room and other things along this line.

Also try thinking "the best thing for me here".
>>
>>1894674
Inspect items. Don't open but just examine them closely. Then explore.
>>
>>1894693
1 for this
>>1894714
1 for this
>>1894726
1 for this
>>
>>1894649
>They're members of the Engineer Corps we just founded. I'd wager it's a bit more intensive that what you're suggesting.
No, those are the skills they have outside of the training they from the engineering corps. My point is that they aren't highly educated by any means and that the technology we've augmented them with is what is doing a fair bit (if not more than that) of the work.

>I'm pointing out that you're wrong.
Opinion.

>They're essentially useless to us until they've acquired education/skills that grant them abilities beyond what basic robots can do, because we can shit out robots and at will provided access to resources (which we have, right now).
We really can't just spam robots as much as you feel currently and more importantly, these'll be people we receive just as we expand rather than having to create robots in a factory and shit. Plus many of them probably won't want to be researchers or show aptitude for it.

>So when you say folks can be put to work doing things while they develop skills I'm saying that developing skills is the only work they can really do that's valuable to us.
So you are saying that we can't have them cutting up buildings for scrap, digging out foundations and other such simple tasks? Cause those'd be of value to me.

>>1894669
Ahem, fuck you.


>My God. You are one dense motherfucker, ain't ya?
I'd say the same of you.

>How many people do you think are needed to equal a bulldozer with a 2 ton bucket? How many men are needed to lift a 3 ton section of wall to the third floor? The number of machines needed is one, by the way.
For each of those roles? Yeah. Now, a human can do it's part in all those roles and more. Also, we'd need to get the bulldozer up there (and between places) and either supply it with fuel, power or a fairly chunky fissile battery (expensive).

Meanwhile, that massive population of humans in the region (which we will have either way as we expand) can be mobilised with shovels, pickaxes, hatchets, saws and hammers under the supervision of others like our engineer squads or a few robots to do labour who handle complex shit.

>Your idea of manpower is ridiculous. Moreover, seeing as we are having trouble educating farmers who have lived with us for years I don't see us educating the yokels in 5 years, let alone one.
One, your spelling of "yokel" is wrong. Please correct this in future as it annoys me.

Two, we're not having trouble educating those who've been with us for years. You'd know this if you payed attention that they've almost all (a few like farming) been moved from the fields into other areas.


Three, I recognise you now. You are the cunt that thinks the moment someone says "feel" their argument should be disregarded. Because "lol emotion" when it is just a fucking word in the English language which can refer to gut instinct and can be used for variety (something that helps in shit like this) in place of think.
>>
>>1894732
Ill second inspecting and then exploring. Lets move this along.
>>
>>1894707
>Inspect some of the items further?
Examine the Fedora and Cigar, Sledgehammer, and especially the black pot more closely.

Then think "Control Room for the warehouse" and use the compass to find it. Maybe take some concentration drugs to try and cut down on the needle jumping.
>>
>>1894741
Fuck it, when this goes wrong, let it be remembered I said we shouldn't but let's get this show on the road.
>>
Rolled 18 (1d100)

>>1894742
>>1894741
>>1894726
>Inspect the items

Rollan!
>>
>>1894749
Welp we're blind now.
>>
>>1894749
Oh look, it went (fairly) wrong.
>>
>>1894738
Cutting up buildings for scrap is dangerous. Rather than have people do it, it's best to use bots that are more capable of it in the first place and also able to do more on account of a lack of concern for personal (and surrounding personnel's) safety as compared to what people would need.

Building foundations needs to be done to a high standard, elsewise all the rest of the work on the building can easily be rendered null. Best to have bots that have virtually no chance of fucking it up do that.

The folks from the Engineer Corps really ARE educated on top of their augments. If it was the augments doing the work we wouldn't have needed to properly found an engineering corp and built them a building and such.

You're clearly just going to keep on being a contrarian cunt to everyone so nevermind I suppose.
>>
>>1894749
Nothing seems different on the items on closer expection.

You look the compass over it a bit, and see two words have been scratched out, the only letters remaining spelling the word "ear".

You put it up to your ear but don't hear anything.

Other than that, the sledge hammer works fine. Breaks things. The Bicycle works fine, you ride on it. The black pot, is, well, a black pot. And the wooden box still gives you free ammo.

Sonia asks to hold the gold fruit and you decide to give it to her as a gift. It's just some jewelry after all.
>>
Rolled 68, 92, 84 = 244 (3d100)

>>1894749
Not THAT roll, take THESE. One for each item.
>>
Gonna be away again for a while, feel free to fill up the thread with discussion. I'm working very hard to get all the stuff i have to do done for fast turns.


Don't forget to vote:
>Explore more
>Leave and go back to the original goal
>Inspect more random boxes
>Other
>>
>>1894786
>>Leave and go back to the original goal
We have some things we can look at before throwing ourselves into something mysterious full tilt. Let's just mark it on our map and come back to the warehouse when we understand more of what's happening.
>>
>>1894738
By god you just dont give up do you??

How are you so stupid that you think a dude with a shovel is better than a bulldozer?? You must be a liberal arts student or something because the real world is so alien to you it is unreal. As someone who has worked in construction, having machines do the heavy lifting is crucial if you want anything done in a timely manner. Furthermore, the education of basic workers takes YEARS, not to mention somebody who can build a house from start to finish. And this WITHOUT machines?? You are so blinded by ideals its uncanny.

And yes, I am no-useless-morals guy. And you must be the dense motherfucker who has shitposted and pushed for idiotic ideas all this time. By god man, what do you study or do in life? Maybe I can get to you through common fields.
>>
>>1894769
I see we agree on this thing. Glad to see somebody who lives in the real world for a change.
>>
>>1894769
>Cutting up buildings for scrap is dangerous. Rather than have people do it, it's best to use bots that are more capable of it in the first place and also able to do more on account of a lack of concern for personal (and surrounding personnel's) safety as compared to what people would need.
True. Still, it's a very low skill job they could do and would be universal to them.

>Building foundations needs to be done to a high standard, else wise all the rest of the work on the building can easily be rendered null. Best to have bots that have virtually no chance of fucking it up do that.
Aye but any bastard with a shovel can dig a hole, leaving our robots to do the important / precision stuff while they move onto other things.

>The folks from the Engineer Corps really ARE educated on top of their augments. If it was the augments doing the work we wouldn't have needed to properly found an engineering corp and built them a building and such.
And we educated them in a month.

>>1894791
This.
>>
>>1894802
>By god you just dont give up do you??
Again with the double question marks and to answer your question, only when I have a reason to or something better to do.

>How are you so stupid that you think a dude with a shovel is better than a bulldozer?
He isn't. At least for a straight up comparison of their ability to move shit around but when it comes down to it, we are going to have hundreds of people at least and I find it easier to believe that we can throw enough shovels at them than we can produce enough construction robots especially considering our limited ability to move them north for now.

>As someone who has worked in construction, having machines do the heavy lifting is crucial if you want anything done in a timely manner.
And they still will in this case but I see human workers being of major importance to the near future of our nation as we expand into Montana.

>Furthermore, the education of basic workers takes YEARS, not to mention somebody who can build a house from start to finish. And this WITHOUT machines?
I never said without machines. I never even said from start to finish. You are making many assumptions about my position.

Also, our education speed is insane.

>You are so blinded by ideals its uncanny.
I'm sorry, what ideals?

>And yes, I am no-useless-morals guy. And you must be the dense motherfucker who has shitposted and pushed for idiotic ideas all this time.
Probably not.

>By god man, what do you study or do in life? Maybe I can get to you through common fields.
Computing science, games design, physics (aye I'm that anon), chemistry, biology, a bit of music (practical (playing, reading and writing) and historical studies with a focus on Scottish music) and political theory.

I'd also say cakecraft but I fail to see how that'd help establish common grounds.
>>
>>1894899
YOU are the anon who calculated the force of an airwave in the hyperloop concept and the one who discussed rocket carry weights?? I find that hard to believe, seeing as that anon was very sensible yet you are incapable of understanding the difference between ten dudes with shovels and a bulldozer with a 2-ton bucket. The difference between trying to outrun a dude who is miles ahead of you vs taking a shortcut to catch up.

And lets give you the benefit of the doubt, say you are that anon, how would you see the populace used in the first year? What would you build and how, with what and from where? This includes tools, raw materials and educated labor/machines. Go.

As for myself, bachelor in genetics, doing masters in biomedicine. Have worked in construction and woodwork. Been in the military and had paramedic training. So at least in chemistry/biology we should come to a consensus, IF you really are that anon.
>>
>>1894966
>YOU are the anon who calculated the force of an air-wave in the hyper-loop concept and the one who discussed rocket carry weights?
No, I think you've got me confused with the other physics anon. I'm the one who was pissed about the microwave tank but I have discussed rocket carry weights and such in past, so I could be wrong.


>I find that hard to believe, seeing as that anon was very sensible yet you are incapable of understanding the difference between ten dudes with shovels and a bulldozer with a 2-ton bucket. The difference between trying to outrun a dude who is miles ahead of you vs taking a shortcut to catch up.
I understand the difference but the problem is that I fail to see us producing and transporting enough bulldozers. Especially given we'd need many other vehicles too.

>And lets give you the benefit of the doubt, say you are that anon, how would you see the populace used in the first year? What would you build and how, with what and from where? This includes tools, raw materials and educated labour / machines. Go.
Focus would be on restoring a basic road system. A reasonably flat and hard surface is all that'd be needed for robots to move around. So it could be constructed out of rubble, gravel and limited concrete supplies with minimal skill required but a large amount of man / machine power. Alternatively, train tracks and trains. Such things should already exist between pre-war towns and such which we can salvage and repair for raw resources (maybe even a train itself). However this'd require a train or more and thus'd most likely be unused except to connect important areas (such as the ones discussed below).

After that focus would probably be on creating a few industrial sites to reprocess the scrap in the region. Either replicator or conventional depending on how feasible either is. However limited power would be required in either case, however our goal is currently to find a fairly sizeable power source to establish a base at, so chances are that'd allow for such industry short term at the cost of being able to teleport less frequently. Construction would most likely be done using transported parts from Big mt and any remaining local concrete and such.

After this it'd mostly be a matter of expanding the power network, more factories and improving the living standards of the people. Power expansion with the replicators would be a simple matter of mass producing the components for solar arrays. Factories with replicators are self-explanatory. Living standards can easily be improved given the standards in the wastes are fairly low.

This is all assuming we can't locate and restore existing pre-war facilities and secure stocks to augment our efforts.

>As for myself, bachelor in genetics, doing masters in biomedicine. Have worked in construction and woodwork. Been in the military and had paramedic training. So at least in chemistry/biology we should come to a consensus, IF you really are that anon.
Fair enough.
>>
>>1894786
>Leave and go back to the original goal
This isn't the main goal of this mission - mark down the location, we'll be back later without our wife and with a dedicated exploration / science team.
>>
wow thats a lot of arguing. but you guys are forgetting some crucial facts.

firstly, we already have a crapload of tech dealing with learning and memories.

phase one integration is to build a robot staffed hospital near an outpost. this cures 99% of diseases in the area and ensures stable population growth.

phase two is accelerated VR learning.
we can already dialate an individuals perception of time and implant memories. several months later and they are the equivalent of a modern professional.

vehicle mounted replicator units powered by small cold fusion can build basic amenities thereafter.

citizenship for communities based on merit and working to bring themselves up to our level.

we could be nation sized by the end of the next year.
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>>1895062
So you are suggesting exactly what I thought you would: traditional industry. Can you really not see how the NCR would be better at this? With all its skilled labor and purpose-built machinery? You are trying to play their game. We will lose at their game. We have to make our own rules and we do this through means nobody else has. That means using replicators to turn rocks into superbots and flying in shielded fortresses to rain fire down on enemy Magino lines.
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>>1895315
>we could be nation sized by the end of the next year.
That feels about right to me. Depending on if we can convince towns / tribes to join us and share resources.

Each one that joins willingly is a few dozen more farmers, workers and warriors to secure the region under us. Plus, whatever scrap metal they bring to the table.


We could also look into buying some basic industrial machines and such off the NCR.
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>>1895315
Now this is a better idea, however it doesnt adress the fact that although the populace is smart the area they live in is still largely useless to us. And the biggest problem here is time. This could work in 3 years, maybe. Then we still would need to build up sufficient infrastructure. We cant do this in one.
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>>1895334
you keep focussing on vertical development when we should be focusing on BOTH horizontal AND vertical development.

90% of the process I describe can be automated by fire-and-forget construction robots that double as com centers and battle platforms. use the behemoth chassis and convert for our purposes. or an airborne variant based on the scout if you want it done more quickly.

2 turns worth of actions to initiate, tops.
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>>1895334
>So you are suggesting exactly what I thought you would: traditional industry.
I suggested using replicators as well but they require a large amount of power or fissile material for what I'd be wanting to achieve. Both could be done but it'd take a long time to get that so incredibly small scale conventional industry can fill the gaps in certain areas like concrete and such while we reserve replication for complex and expensive things.

I fail to see what you are misunderstanding so hard as to come to these conclusions.

>Can you really not see how the NCR would be better at this? With all its skilled labor and purpose-built machinery? You are trying to play their game. We will lose at their game.
And again, I disagree since our factories are more efficient than theirs outright and more importantly I fail to see how I am playing their game. Fact is that I just want to get some basic shit up and running in the north before we focus on your insane wunderwaffe.

>We have to make our own rules and we do this through means nobody else has. That means using replicators to turn rocks into super-bots and flying in shielded fortresses to rain fire down on enemy Maginot lines.
Which is lovely, except:

1) WE DON'T HAVE SHIELDS.

2) We don't have anywhere near the power supply needed to sustain such levels of replication.

3) The NCR has artillery pieces that fire two tonne shells something like forty miles. Your "fortresses" would be pummelled out of existence under the fire of dozens of these.
>>
>>1895344
the locals have a greater knowledge of their surroundings than us. And we will be giving them both technical/survival/science skills, and a strong incentive to want to join us.

the solutions they devise to their own problems will be unique, and potentially useful to us. ever new community is a resource both in minds, and more traditional resources surrounding it
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>>1894786
>Inspect more random boxes
>>
>>1895354
And this I agree with 100%.

However, I dont think we can achieve the desired effect in anything less than 3 years.

>>1895371
Yes, but again, they will not be able to build up enough in a year.

>>1895362
You are talking about building factories that mostly use raw materials and machine them into goods (see normal industry). What I am saying is that the NCR can make MANY MORE factories than us over the same timeframe. What we need to do is make every last resource count far harder than theirs, this means consolidating power in our capital and using everything to make better tech and industry at home. What I can agree to is >>1895354 as using hightech means to fabricate and not having it rely on us is fine.

What you dont get is that we have the ability to achieve all the flying fortresses and doomsday shields if we focus on it instead of going rural like you want.
>>
>>1895467
>You are talking about building factories that mostly use raw materials and machine them into goods (see normal industry).
To begin with yes because they are easier to build and power.

>What I am saying is that the NCR can make MANY MORE factories than us over the same time-frame. What we need to do is make every last resource count far harder than theirs, this means consolidating power in our capital and using everything to make better tech and industry at home.
They can also make many more tanks, yet we aren't avoiding producing those and instead focusing on making a single miracle tank. Also, I'd argue that your plan of creating a single location of immense value won't work out since it leaves us vulnerable to any super weapons they might develop or have.

Also I feel you are underestimating our ability to industrialise and sabotage the NCR's own efforts.

>What I can agree to is >>1895354 as using hightech means to fabricate and not having it rely on us is fine.
Yeah and I can agree to that too but I want to do more. Because I feel the benefits are very useful and that what he is advising might not achieve a great enough level of conversion and unification of the local population under us.

>What you dont get is that we have the ability to achieve all the flying fortresses and doomsday shields if we focus on it instead of going rural like you want.
How in the hell does industry equal rural to you? The two words are pretty much the antithesis of each other.

As to achieving flying fortresses and such, we do and I'd possibly make use of them but I feel you are placing too much emphasis on dumb shit that can be taken out over universally useful actions. Industry, commerce, population and expansion in general are universally useful.
>>
>>1895635
>To begin with yes because they are easier to build and power.
At that point you will have thrown lots of resources and time at the project (resources we could have used to build more bots, as well as the time to do so) without any gain for us.

>>1895635
>They can also make many more tanks, yet we aren't avoiding producing those and instead focusing on making a single miracle tank. Also, I'd argue that your plan of creating a single location of immense value won't work out since it leaves us vulnerable to any super weapons they might develop or have.
And this is exactly my point. We can never (discounting long LONG term) build as many war machines as the NCR can in the same amount of time. Thus we have to build better things than the NCR. If the miracle tank can take out 10 of their tanks and continue on, its a success. (Think Tiger tank)

>>1895635
>Also I feel you are underestimating our ability to industrialise and sabotage the NCR's own efforts.
Seeing as we needed a YEAR to build the robotics factory and another year to build the necessary tings for the second construction action, I dont see how we will do it so much faster in a place without infrastructure that is far away from home (so you have to portal, meaning only small objects can get there). As to sabotage, with how large the NCR is I dont see us takig out a few factories will hurt them as much as you "feel" it will.
>>
>>1895635
>Yeah and I can agree to that too but I want to do more. Because I feel the benefits are very useful and that what he is advising might not achieve a great enough level of conversion and unification of the local population under us.
Yet that plan is doable and will run in the background, whereas you want us to waste dozens of turns on this shit.

>>1895635
>How in the hell does industry equal rural to you? The two words are pretty much the antithesis of each other.
You are talking about turning farmland into basic factories. I am saying get rid of factories and go straight to matter conversion for infinite possibilities and FAR superior speed. And this does not seems miles ahead of what you propose??

>>1895635
>As to achieving flying fortresses and such, we do and I'd possibly make use of them but I feel you are placing too much emphasis on dumb shit that can be taken out over universally useful actions. Industry, commerce, population and expansion in general are universally useful.
And that "dumb shit" is the only reason we are as far as we are. Without replicators early on, without advanced bots or alien batteries we would be a shitty satellite of the NCR. Advancing technology is the only way we can further ourselves in any meaningful way. By applying this tech to new areas bypasses the "industrial revolution" you are trying to push for and allows us to better use the area and its people. This is why >>1895354 has it correct that a fire and forget method is best. A hightech solution that autonomously sets up further replicators afield. AND, if we figure out compact fusion and portable rocks-to-robots the multiplier goes up dramatically.
>>
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As an example of what we could do by going further high-tech:

Figure out how the mothership works (after relocating the chinese, possibly into the NV area, alternatively Newberry close by) and apply the knowledge to NW in addition to the Miles Capital Laser project. Incorporate flying engines and the mothership shields into the city, reinforce the structure. Have it be our own mothership-equivalent to intimidate, deter and assault our enemies.

Turn BigMT into a literal fortress. Work out the mountain AA cover Miles talked about and add shields. Build underground and secure everything with shielded areas, turrets and traps. Locate all our power production, mantle drill and large-scale replicator operations underneath the mountain. Go underground and expand there. Fortify the desert with traps, sensors and turrets.

This leaves us with a highly fortified central location (also nuke proof, since shooting down lots of missiles is a thing) with the option of deploying the Fortress City to areas we need heavy security at. Connect everything up with portals and we can literally project force anywhere and everywhere, regardless of terrain, enemy positions and local developement. This would also aid in locking down areas, since Airpower can cover a wide area.
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>>1894791
>>1894833
>>1895255
LOCKED

----

As much as this place tickles your imagination and excitement, it won't just walk up and leave.

Right?

You DO have to find a power source for your portal anyway, and even if one was here, who knows how long it would take to find it. Especially since these guys were lost.

So taking the spoils you currently have, you exit. And go off in search of what you wish to find.

---

Back at the UFO, it seems to be working again. You swear its NOT where you left it, but you were able to find it oddly enough using the compass.

CHOOSE:
>Explore some of the previously known occupied military bases
>Keep looking for other un-occupied military bases
>You remember Montanna had coal mines, a lot before and after the war. Maybe there's a coal fired power plant around here?
>Take the skies!
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>>1897692
>>Explore some of the previously known occupied military bases
>>Keep looking for other un-occupied military bases
The goal being to find the most suitable location. Preferrably a bunker or an airfield. Use the scoutship.
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>>1897710
Support


Tbh, I think we need to take over the biggest local populated settlement. We need to expand fast and aggressively.
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>>1897732
Yes but again, that just gives us manpower. Something we have no real use for. If we can get an automated replicator set up and and VR pods brought in to educate them, they could be useful in a few years but we get no immediate gain from them. Getting an airforce base allows for all that plus the immediate gain of flying tech and a securable base.
>>
>>1897710
Supporting as well.
>>
>>1897692
>You remember Montanna had coal mines, a lot before and after the war. Maybe there's a coal fired power plant around here?
We need power to build the teleporter to link back to Big MT
>>
>>1897754
Coal is so bad it hurts. If we really cant find a nuclear generator we portal power from back home until we can build a generator there.
>>
Can someone tell me what all that argument earlier was about?
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>>1897792
One anon wanted to try and build up traditional industry in Montana. This would mean we have to spend time and money on something the NCR does far better. Another anon suggested we use fire-and-forget replicators and VR pods to passively build up the area while we focus on our capital/NV area. This means we sidestep building traditional industry and go for hightech solutions.

Basically low tech industrial industry (and dudes with shovels) VS high tech replicators and VR education (passively so we can focus on other things while it goes on in the background).
>>
>>1897796
That doesn't make sense, why is there a choice between them when it seems logical that we would first do the low tech industry so we can have the manpower to quickly upgrade the industry into high tech?
Also fire-and-forget replicators are a horrible idea, the replication tech is way too valuable to trow around so haphazardly.
>>
>>1897710
>>1897732
>>1897751
Roll me 3 1d100s!
>>
>>1897800
The point is that we spent a year making our robot factory. We have the ability to sidestep traditional industry and go straight for high tech. If we go the long route, we lose the advantage over the NCR who industrializes far quicker.

As to the replicators, it was more a mobile base (maybe behemoth chassis) with some protection that would move and build things as needed. Add a few VR pods to educate and make engineers/soldiers on site and with the replicator making machines as needed we can have it chugging in the background with a higher level of efficiency than regular industry (which requires MANY factories before we can diversify reasonably (one for trucks, one for construction machines, one for bots, one for building materials and so on).
>>
Rolled 74 (1d100)

>>1897802
Hoping for NOT1
>>
>>1897808
Ill take it
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>>1897805
>The point is that we spent a year making our robot factory. We have the ability to sidestep traditional industry and go straight for high tech. If we go the long route, we lose the advantage over the NCR who industrializes far quicker.
Still not getting the point, why not go low tech industry to build the robot factory so we can upgrade into high tech industry?
>As to the replicators, it was more a mobile base (maybe behemoth chassis) with some protection that would move and build things as needed.
Ah, that's fine then, hell i proposed such a thing in a previous thread.
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>>1897810
>Still not getting the point, why not go low tech industry to build the robot factory so we can upgrade into high tech industry?
It took a year for us to build a robot factory in the heart of our industrial complex. I dont see how we can get anywhere as fast with no infrastructure and no skilled labor.

>>1897810
>Ah, that's fine then, hell i proposed such a thing in a previous thread.
And that I am fine with as well. Plus it allows us the flexibility that regular industry doesnt (we can build anything WITHOUT the need for a specific factory to make the prequisite materials - THIS s the advantage here).
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>>1897810
Also roll please
>>
Rolled 58 (1d100)

>>1897802
>>1897821
I really didn't want to man.
>>
Rolled 10 (1d100)

>>1897802
Will you take a second?
>>
>>1897828
Obviously not...
>>
Rolled 10 (1d100)

>>1897802
better results?
>>
>>1897828
>>1897837
Please stop.
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>>1897837
kek, we are semi fucked
>>
>>1897846
Nah, 74 overrides the 10s.
>>
>>1897854
Yes, but only one of them is mine :)

Back to fucked
>>
>>1897854
Unless QM wants best of 3. Then no biggie, indeed
>>
>>1897860
I am confident QM uses best of 3, with the only exceptions being crits which can apply at any point i believe.
>>
>>1897409
>At that point you will have thrown lots of resources and time at the project (resources we could have used to build more bots, as well as the time to do so) without any gain for us.
"Without any gain for us" is literally impossible. I am talking about establishing industry, infrastructure and getting a entire state under our belt. Also, resources ain't the limiting factor (factory size is) in how many robots we can produce so trust me when I say that this'd not effect that.

>And this is exactly my point. We can never (discounting long LONG term) build as many war machines as the NCR can in the same amount of time. Thus we have to build better things than the NCR. If the miracle tank can take out 10 of their tanks and continue on, its a success. (Think Tiger tank)
Oh yes, the tiger tank: a wunderwaffe; that was beaten, repeatedly, consistently, efficiently and reliably by sheer numbers of Sherman. Not to mention their vulnerability to aircraft fire.

Also, why in gods name do you plan on fighting the NCR any time sooner than very, very, very long term? The amount of things we should do before fighting them is insane and I'd argue we'll only be ready in 4 years at least if not 6.

>Seeing as we needed a YEAR to build the robotics factory and another year to build the necessary tings for the second construction action, I don't see how we will do it so much faster in a place without infrastructure that is far away from home (so you have to portal, meaning only small objects can get there).
Well, seeing as I don't intend to build the robotics factory that is a pointless comparison. Especially since a large portion of the construction time was because we needed to get the AI's which, surprise surprise, we have. Also because it was an entirely automated factory which greatly increases the complexity.

>As to sabotage, with how large the NCR is I don't see us taking out a few factories will hurt them as much as you "feel" it will.
That is because you over estimate their industrial capacity and growth rate while underestimating our ability to do damage. We have stealthy robots for sabotage and tunnellers for transport. We can mass produce high explosives. We could level entire factories but that is inefficient.

Fact is we'd want to just break a few things here and there. For example: if we were to interrupt the fuel supply of the NCR's steel mills, then their furnaces would cool, contract and crack. Meaning they'd have to replace them entirely. This, could be done without any major investment besides sending a robot in at night to hack whatever is controlling the fuel feed or killing a few of the night crew if it is not automated as I'd expect.

In the case of actual factories it'd just be a matter of breaking machines or placing explosive charges to detonate during working hours (maximises the damage by killing workers and delaying production an additional few hours) or depending on the materials in use contaminating or destroying them.
>>
>>1897879
>Yet that plan is doable and will run in the background, whereas you want us to waste dozens of turns on this shit.
How in the hell do you consider establishing industry and infrastructure a waste? How in the hell do you think it'll take dozens of turns? It'd mostly be a matter of setting up a small industrial site capable of producing anything it needs to maintain and expand. Then just letting it get to work.

>You are talking about turning farmland into basic factories.
LIKE FUCK I AM. I am talking about getting a small set of basic factories set up so we can begin creation of replication industry when we have enough POWER to sustain such a thing.

>I am saying get rid of factories and go straight to matter conversion for infinite possibilities and FAR superior speed. And this does not seems miles ahead of what you propose??
It does seem miles ahead. So does the fucking energy cost to run the bloody things! Not to mention the inability to salvage for parts or intact factories in the region to fulfil the role thus slowing down their set up even further.

>And that "dumb shit" is the only reason we are as far as we are. Without replicators early on, without advanced bots or alien batteries we would be a shitty satellite of the NCR. Advancing technology is the only way we can further ourselves in any meaningful way. By applying this tech to new areas bypasses the "industrial revolution" you are trying to push for and allows us to better use the area and its people.
Except those aren't dumb things. Your giant flying wunderwaffe? A massive and useless target since we'd never be able to have more than one if you want it to be as powerful as you think it'd be and so deploying it would sap our defensive strength insanely while not deploying it would leave us without an offensive weapon thanks to your under-investment in actual expansion.

>This is why >>1895354 has it correct that a fire and forget method is best. A high-tech solution that autonomously sets up further replicators afield. AND, if we figure out compact fusion and portable rocks-to-robots the multiplier goes up dramatically.
Except what he is advising is going to be unable to get the region under our control. It'll make us popular with the locals sure but why would they give up sovereignty to the random fucks who set up a wee outpost 5 miles away and then more or less fucked off? Not to mention the vulnerability of these giant walking replicator platforms to run into something they can't deal with and the outposts themselves.
>>
>>1897618
>Figure out how the mothership works (after relocating the Chinese, possibly into the NV area, alternatively Newberry close by) and apply the knowledge to NW in addition to the Miles Capital Laser project. Incorporate flying engines and the mothership shields into the city, reinforce the structure. Have it be our own mothership-equivalent to intimidate, deter and assault our enemies.
I've already addressed how the NCR may neutralise such a craft. Especially since shields have been beaten by us before and OP'd probably give them that.

>This leaves us with a highly fortified central location (also nuke proof, since shooting down lots of missiles is a thing) with the option of deploying the Fortress City to areas we need heavy security at. Connect everything up with portals and we can literally project force anywhere and everywhere, regardless of terrain, enemy positions and local development.
Which is lovely until you get shot the fuck down by the NCR or by MLA magic or by some super weapon of the BOS when you deploy through the portal which'd also be impressive since you are talking about a fuck off huge craft so the energy costs of deploying it anywhere would be too high. Not to mention the physical size of the actual teleporter.

>This would also aid in locking down areas, since Airpower can cover a wide area.
Which is all the more reason to not focus on creating some massively over fortified region and instead focus on taking land and defending it with air drones since we can easily do so.

>>1897792
I want to create a few factories in the north to allow for basic industry quickly and cheaply in regards to power since that'll be a major limitation for us unlike in Big mt where it was manpower. Then move onto replication industry as we gain enough power to sustain it.

Yellow wants to jump into the region and immediately set up replicator industry without any regard to just how expensive to run it is.

The third side, the fire-and-forget guy, advises creating small outposts which have replication capacity and VR education equipment. I feel that this isn't a realistic system thanks to the power needs of both these activities along with the other needs (all of our current VR requires the people are debrained for example) such as security. Meaning what he is advising would be far from a small outpost, although the concept does hold major potential if developed and I would consider it a decent start.

>>1897796
Mate, please stop misrepresenting what I am advising.
>>
>>1897900
>I want to create a few factories in the north to allow for basic industry quickly and cheaply in regards to power since that'll be a major limitation for us unlike in Big mt where it was manpower.
You forget that when we researched Cold fusion we unlocked how to build small-medium reactors which can be constructed quickly, i agree with you that we will first need to get some low tech industry but i don't believe we'll stay low tech for long enough that we build a few normal factories.
Here's the post detailing more >>1848796
>(all of our current VR requires the people are debrained for example)
They do? Can you show me the post?
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>>1897900
>Mate, please stop misrepresenting what I am advising.
What are you advising anyway? What kind of low tech industry do you wanna set up?
>>
>>1897920
>You forget that when we researched Cold fusion we unlocked how to build small-medium reactors which can be constructed quickly
We'd need a water supply which may be hard to achieve depending on our luck. Still I see what you mean but until you have the industry to produce them, you'd need to bring them north from Big mt which could be problematic.

>i agree with you that we will first need to get some low tech industry but i don't believe we'll stay low tech for long enough that we build a few normal factories.
Aye which is why I also want to explore the region for salvageable pre-war ones. Plus I only want to build tiny ones to allow us to get some basic things running while we get our replicators up and running.

>They do? Can you show me the post?
I can't remember the thread for the life of me where we researched them and I swear that the situation might've changed since then but I'd rather just wait for OP to confirm / deny since that's the final word either way.

>>1897921
Hexcrete and possibly some scrap refining since that'd be expensive to ship north. That way replication can be reserved for complex things like robots, electronics and such.

Still, we'll see how big of a power supply we get and what we can sustain off it before I'll make any definite decisions since replication might be entirely possible as our opening move but I doubt that any one base we will find would have such a power supply.
>>
>>1897958
>We'd need a water supply which may be hard to achieve depending on our luck.
Doesn't Montana have snow? And is also not a desert so water is more common there?
>Still I see what you mean but until you have the industry to produce them, you'd need to bring them north from Big mt which could be problematic.
I don't understand this, what would i need to bring from BigMT besides tools and a few materials we can't get from Montana?
>Aye which is why I also want to explore the region for salvageable pre-war ones. Plus I only want to build tiny ones to allow us to get some basic things running while we get our replicators up and running.
>Hexcrete and possibly some scrap refining since that'd be expensive to ship north. That way replication can be reserved for complex things like robots, electronics and such.
That's certainly acceptable, don't see a reason to have a massive argument about it.
>>
>>1897969
>Doesn't Montana have snow?
True. Still though, that'd require you shovelled snow in constantly or had a system to do so.

>And is also not a desert so water is more common there?
True as well but it doesn't help if the military bases we can secure aren't near water and shit. Still, I do believe you have a good point.

>I don't understand this, what would i need to bring from BigMT besides tools and a few materials we can't get from Montana?
Well I'd imagine that a cold fusion reactor is something you need good quality parts for. So chances are that you'd be unable to assemble it in Montana from local shit without a replicator which in turn would require power and a de-materialisation chamber or a fair amount of fissile. So without sufficient local industry + power I get the feeling you'd be best off just shipping them up north whole or in parts.

Seriously, without OP to chime in on how easily we can make them from scrap it's hard to say but I get the feeling that this is something we'd need to teleport, transport or replicate unless we get lucky in regards to pre-war factories or we build a bit more additional industrial capacity. Although I suppose shifting a squad of construction robots north or something might make it a non-issue...

>That's certainly acceptable, don't see a reason to have a massive argument about it.
Because I wasn't exactly giving full detail last night. Seeing as it was like 5 / 6 AM towards the end.
>>
>>1898000
>Well I'd imagine that a cold fusion reactor is something you need good quality parts for. So chances are that you'd be unable to assemble it in Montana from local shit without a replicator which in turn would require power and a de-materialisation chamber or a fair amount of fissile. So without sufficient local industry + power I get the feeling you'd be best off just shipping them up north whole or in parts.
It's true that it will need some quality parts but i think a cold fusion of small size won't demand much of those, so teleporting in quality parts won't be a problem.
>>
>>1898014
If that works out to be the case, then great but I can't imagine the words fusion and easy to build ever being connected to be frank.
>>
>>1897828
>>1897837
>Double 10s
Neat. Time for fun.
>>
>>1898181
Tits.

>>1898000
And captain retarded strikes again.
>>
>>1898234
doubles give Good fun. with the 74, we should have a pretty good result.
>>
Rolled 33 (1d100)

>>1897802
>>
>>1898271
If it was a double 55 Id be glad but two 10s? Shit is about to hit the fan.
>>
>>1898438
OR, absolutely nothing will happen.
>>
>>1901123
Also, seeing as we are at thread 31, did we get a boon?
>>
>>1901210
OP, changed the rules. Now we get a free boon every in game year.
>>
>>1901719
And let me guess, the year is full when he says it is?

Oh boy...

This is why the concept of boons as currency is bad. When we are dependent on boons to progress in any meaningful way (replicators and fusion tech) it leaves us at a gate only QM can open, meaning that despite player actions some things are locked away until QM deems it "balanced" enough to give it to us (although such balancing can be achieved in other ways, especially seeing as the NCR is already Shrek-tier). The only two exceptions would be the construction anon with his hexcrete boon (which QM took away pretty soon) and my nuclear one (which is behind a poorly-explained pay wall of energy cost now).

So basically the railroad tracks keep on going farther and farther.
>>
Thanks for your patients anons, I moved out of my apartment the last two days for the better I feel.

Today I am less busy, so more updates for sure!

Exploring the other military bases, you remember the Brotherhood of Steel Base and the other base filled with armed men.

Going on foot to investigate these from a closer distance.

The Brotherhood here definitely seem to work more with locals, akin to the Midwestern Brotherhood, as you spot trade outposts and people with Brahmin wagons and small villages nearby.

The other outpost you previously found on closer inspection must be either mercenaries or soldiers, rather than raiders. Mostly the lack of skulls, corpses, and actual uniforms and a flag gives them away. Not a flag you've seen before.

You DO find an abandoned military base with the generator you need to sustain the portal indefinitely, as well as some other small buildings. It needs repairs, but with your skill and calling in reinforcements it can be done.
>Suitable base found. Kind of small, rather empty, needs work, but it will work

You also find something. . .strange.

From the air, you thought it was just regular tire or tread tracks of some vehicle. On closer inspect you find they are tire tracks.

But each of the tracks is the size of two houses put side by side. It was as if someone decided to drive an oversized car over the wasteland here.

---

You are nearing the end of the month, you can choose to pursue the tracks or focus on establishing a base or investingating the other bases.
>>
>>1901726
eh.... a year is about 12 turns give it or take.

Boons are not something we should depend on or need to advance. Replication tech could have been unlocked other ways, like getting the tech from Sierra Madre earlier, working with Elijah, going on a thought-out offensive instead of doing one-man hero action or when OP prompted the first time how we dealt with Sierra Madre situation, chosen the most safe option (ie. we killed Elijah)

Or we could have gone other way, maybe by healing the think-tank and re-discovering the tech again. Probably a long arduous road.
>>
>>1901738
There are definitely ways to get stuff which is hard to get that don't involve boons, as mentioned. Sometimes its not very obvious, but you can also spend actions to try and find these not very obvious paths.
>>
>>1901735
Lets go with abandoned military base. We just need the teleporter to send in materials and bots.

Can we pursue the tracks later on?
>>
>>1901735
>CHOOSE
Focus on base building
Follow the giant tracks
Investigate (murderize/take over?) the other bases.
>>
>>1901740
Of course, doesn't look like they are going anywhere.
>>
>>1901742

Focus on base building.

We need to setup a strong foothold before we start dealing with other factions in case they become hostile if they learn what we are here for.

What is near the abandoned military base or do we need to spend a dedicated scouting action to survey the surroundings?
>>
>>1901742
>base building

Let's set up shop before we start expanding.

QM how much power is available? Just enough for the portal or is there spare energy?
>>
>>1901742
>Focus on base building
>>
>>1901743
ALL other locations are taken? No airfield/airport of any kind (raiders are no problem to kill)?

How big of a generator does the tiny base have and what is it exactly?

>>1901739
The issue here is that we dont know what you know. In situations where "Hey, we need that McGuffin to get the ZAX working." I completely agree, these things should not be gotten easily but if I have to go on a crusade across the internet before you let be get a chance to remove replicator requirements it leaves be thinking the only way to get the tech is to either pressure you relentlessly (as you have noticed) or hoping for a boon.
>>
>>1901835
>thinking that pressuring the QM will work.

You could try that, or you could try combining critical thinking skills with basic empathy.

Or just accept that sometimes there is no magic bullet solution and work with what you have.

Seriously dude, just having limited replicator technology is a gigantic advantage.

Your constant complaints about railroading don't "pressure" the QM to give us massively unbalanced tech any more than bitching about a rules interpretation "forces" a tabletop GM to allow a particularly broken build. What it does do is showcase your inability to cooperate.

Fucks sake man, have you never encountered an obstacle or challenge? Just work around it.
>>
>>1901744
>>1901754
>>1901756
You decide to focus on the military base you found. This one is heavily irradiated due to bombs and a few molten generators gone haywire, unsuitable for any persons of low radiation tolerance, as evidenced by the dead raiders. Luckily you and your crew are no such people.

After executing the Ghouls you come to a pleasant surprise. This seems to have a single working Cold Fusion generator! You are happy to find the reactor and begin fixing it, using the information you obtained from the more numerous ones you obtained in the Sierra Madre

It turns out you weren't the first visitors here in a while either. According to the terminal's someone WAS here a while ago, and they observed some files mostly on the generator vitals. However strangely, it doesn't look like the accessed the blueprints even though they were here. You wonder who it is. It'd have to be someone with at least standard radiation gear.

You start building a portal communications device while Sonia starts helping to contain some of the radioactive waste, soon you will have small repair bots and men in exoarmor coming in to rebuild the military base, perhaps build a secondary town away from here. These will take actions, but hey, its a new front for your nation!

---

>con't
>>
reposting weapon ideas for consideration and discussion.

>anti-rad gun

weaponized rad absorption plant seeds injected with super growth and ultra effective fertalizer compounds. seed walls are designed to split after impacting a target much like hollow point bullets. the seed grows absorbing rads from a subject, then explodes due to self agitation.

>Thirst Annihilator

a low speed gauss cannon accelerating a mix of ferrofluid and weaponized nuka-cola quantum. magnetizing the mix improves its viscosity and hopefully allows it to cling to metallic surfaces before it explodes like a mini-nuke.

>The hot mess (sledge)

two saturnine drills attached to a sturdy motor and burners. the burners heat the drills to red hot and the motor spins them in opposite directions. its essentially a burning drill sledge.

>(axe version)

two industrial sized circular saturnine saw blades with motors on the end of a pole. burners in the middle heat the saw blades that spin parallel to each other in opposite directions.

>dreamweaver

a pair of unassuming leather gloves with capillaries that dispense the powerful paralytic from our knockout gun.

>midas nightmare
a power fist with a micro replicator turns anything hit into hydrogen.

thats all for now.
>>
>>1901902
>You could try that, or you could try combining critical thinking skills with basic empathy.
Despite having shown the actual processes behind nuclear fusion, as well as having proposed ways to allow players to contribute more I have been stonewalled. In fact, doing a few basic calculations you will come to a realization that anything less than fusion would actually never be enough to allow for replication at the scale we have (discounting the things I want to do).

>>1901902
>Seriously dude, just having limited replicator technology is a gigantic advantage.
Absolutely and if that was as far as it goes I would shut my piehole a lot more often. However, as it stands, we know it can go A LOT farther (Elijah) and us, with literally the BEST science center as well as the place where the replicator where made at, not being able to go there is infuriating, because its not about us not doing enough but QM not allowing it. I dont want us to have magic bullets, I want us to be able to get the same magic bullets others have on the same grounds, not to jump through 12 hoops for them.

>>1901902
>Your constant complaints about railroading don't "pressure" the QM
I dont expect him to fold willy-nilly, however I do want him to think about how he implements tech and what barriers he places in our way. I am still waiting for the Indiana Jones warehouse to be filled with mosters when we return.

>>1901929
What base is it if it has cold fusion? Anything of note in the basement? How much power does it produce?
>>
>>1901937
>anti-rad gun
If the seed can grow that quick, pretty neat, if situational.

>>1901937
>Thirst Annihilator
Why not just a mininuke with a magnet? Far easier and more reliable. Also no spillage.

>>1901937
>The hot mess
Proton axes are better imo, Or just saturnite axes. Same goes for the axe version. No need to cook them if they are already in pieces.

>>1901937
>dreamweaver
IF it goes through the skin in a reliable and fast fashion it is good for stealth/spy characters, otherwise very situational.

>>1901937
>midas nightmare
Cool concept, VERY expensive in terms of energy and not that useful considering you could have it shoot disintegration bullets or a disintegrator boom on touch (alien tech).
>>
Rolled 25 (1d100)

>>1901961
Hmmm
>>
>>1901978
the anti rad gun is for dealing with super mutants, ghouls, centaurs, SM behemoths and the like.

the thirst Annihilator would potentially hit harder than a mini nuke. the pistol version hits like a mini nuke. a rifle version could be developed that uses cryo tech to freeze WNCQ and fires it with magnetism (if mixed with ferro fluid) or compressed air if not. its essentially a much, much lighter mini nuke.

either hot mess variant exists to provide very strong melee options that benefit from the pyromaniac perk. plus they are terrifying as hell. and I like the name

yeah, its meant to be situational. but in the right situation the dreamweaver could be devastating.

I agree about the proton axes, but it feels like we could do better versus power armor. perhaps anti-material sniper rounds with piezo-electric ceramic plates designed to cause an EMP on compression?

An electrified protonic inversion blade?

Autorfire Mini-missle rifles?

the EMC gauss minigun?

hell, perhaps we can condense an EMP field into a type of energy blade.
>>
>>1902075
Any piezo electrics in a bullet wont have the potential to do anything big. I think to deal with armour and the like, we should just work on smaller faster bullets. Progress down the gauss tech tree for the armour penetration.
>>
>>1901961
It appears to have been a supplementary emergency power station, in the event of a power outage this was to come online.

It did. But the robots that activated to tend it either were killed off over the centuries or driven mad like a lot of machines do after so long. As with most things, Old World stuf was slated to last for centuries, but few people actually anticipated a need to make them run for centuries.

The basement is mostly flooded with nuclear waste and irradiated wildlife like carniverous plants. Sonia is dealing with them.
>>
>>1902112
QM, are you dead again?
>>
So now that we have a Montana base, let's talk about what our first actions in Montana should be.
I believe we should begin by scouting settlements and strong factions, then we can offer protection to settlements that are weak an prone to being raided, after gaining their trust and gratitude we offer them better education and luxuries in exchange for them joining us.
>>
>>1902710
I think we should secure the base we have first, bring in a bunch of bots, couple bastions to secure the perimiter, set up a teleporter pad first.

Then we find a settlement of normal people, find the nearest raider camp, and lend a very generous helping hand in getting rid of threats.

Also bring in cheap food and meds if they need it.
>>
>>1902756
>I think we should secure the base we have first, bring in a bunch of bots, couple bastions to secure the perimiter, set up a teleporter pad first.
Well of course, that goes without saying.
>>
>>1902710
medicine, clinic, and food are phase 1
better security and training are phase 2
full social and technological integration is phase 3
>>
>>1902962
Hopefully we can make use of them productively before we reach phase 3.

Obvious exports would be scrap, food and fissile. However if we can find, repair and power pre-war factories in the region, we might be able to produce limited amounts of whatever goods they'd have produced or we might re-purpose them to produce other things we need like robots, weapons or other such goods.


Still, this'll get us a large population boost assuming we can convince these towns / villages to join us if nothing else.
>>
>>1903009
Include air conditioning in phase 1 but only for the town leader. They will be scrambling to get to level 3
>>
>>1902962
Speaking of training.

Here's my proposal

High Int/Per scientists/engineer/technician training

High Agi/Per sniper training

High Str/End Shock trooper training

High Charisma Mercantile training

Etc. etc.
>>
>>1902962
I think phase 1 and 2 should switch places.
>>
>>1903100
Food stuffs and medicines would be more likely to be accepted off the bat than training.Once they see the fruits of our techniques, then they would be more inclined to learn more.
>>
As for Sonia.

This outing seems to have been exactly what she needed. It's been a while since you've seen her so happy. And excited. And touchy.

And wanting to make up for all that time spent away.

She ended up literally leaping on you and you're pretty sure you spent the whole two days doing some of the most freaky depravities with, to, and done by, her. Stuff that makes even Joanna blush.

It scares you to think if Unity ever saw this then Sam might have seen this. . .you hope she hasn't. . .

---

After washing off all the oil, wax, and other various fluids from your bodies, and work out the soreness in Sonia's joints from locked positions, you both return to work as you send in robots and some of your ghoulish and super mutant allies to restore the base.

>BIG MT
https://pastebin.com/jAXYFRB1

>THE NURSERY
https://pastebin.com/ic3ac1xL

>MONTANNA
https://pastebin.com/hNDfikF9

The US outpost has not yet been fully scouted nor have the prototypes been investigated. When that happens I will update stats for it.

>>1847502
The Slaves have been purchased and are arriving this turn, you may return home to speak to them if you wish. You have purchased roughly 272 of them worth of weapons, including the two supposed psychic young adults roughly aged 16 and 19.

Metal has been scavened from the divide, and has already replenished what we spent on the weapons.

SPI says that about this turn her mission should return, when they do you will recieve an update at least by next turn.

Cold Fusion has been researched! You have an average grasp of the technology, and can build more of the variant from the Divide from small to large. Just add water.

You have researched the bioplants.

---

ALERT!
-The NCR's founding day is in two turns, marking the start of a new year.
-Sam's training is almost finish. You hear she's chosen to take the form of a 17 year old (it's been six years since she was born)

NEW TURN!

4 Action Cap.

Available Actions: Civilian, Construction, Military, Research, ZAX, Hero
+Robotic Research does not count toward cap.
+Biological Research does not count toward cap
>>>>>Turn: 119
>>
>>1903132

>HERO
- Date
- Help with integration of new citizens
- Do a walking tour of New Washington and talk to our current citizens about their problems / wants

>CIV
Integrate the new slaves we bought. Ensure that they have houses, a copy of our book and understand the ways of our nation. Link a few former slaves with a current citizen 'buddy' to help them.

>CONSTRUCT
big cold Fusion reactor under NW
>construct 2
big cold Fusion reactor under NW

>robo-RESEARCH
Advanced processor cores-.

>ZAX RESEARCH
MLA hover cycle thing plans, but average

>BIOLOGICAL RESEARCH
Study the BoS augments and devise ways of improving them

>PASSIVE PRODUCTION
Assaultron mass production model
>>
>>1903132
>HERO
- Date
- Help with integration of new citizens
- Do a walking tour of New Washington and talk to our current citizens about their problems / wants
- Deliver MLA hovercraft blueprint

>CIV
Integrate the new slaves we bought. Ensure that they have houses, a copy of our book and understand the ways of our nation. Link a few former slaves with a current citizen 'buddy' to help them.

>CONSTRUCT
Brain Vault

>Military.
Fortify our Montana outpost with robots and turrets.

>robo-RESEARCH
Advanced processor cores.

>ZAX RESEARCH
MLA hovercraft blueprint.

>BIOLOGICAL RESEARCH
Study the BoS augments and devise ways of improving them

>PASSIVE PRODUCTION
Assaultron mass production model.
>>
>>1903161
Aw fuck i deleted the wrong construction action.
Replace Brain vault with
>big cold Fusion reactor under NW
>>
>>1903161
>Advanced processor cores.
Why? With Montana secured we are about to get a good stream of raider brains to do that stuff...

>MLA hovercraft blueprint.
I swear we did these already but yeah, we need to deliver them.

>>1903164
>big cold Fusion reactor under NW
This'll take too long and I fail to see why you are trying to use the thing that consumes water in a desert especially when such an action could be used in Montana or more properly in Big mt to start constructing the underground farms.


Need sleep, must go.
>>
>>1903161
>>1903164
sure, support this then.
>>
>>1903177
>Why? With Montana secured we are about to get a good stream of raider brains to do that stuff...
I dunno, another anon wanted it, i wanted to research how to make our robots cheaper.
>This'll take too long and I fail to see why you are trying to use the thing that consumes water in a desert especially when such an action could be used in Montana or more properly in Big mt to start constructing the underground farms.
Because we need power and Cold fusion doesn't need drinkable water so we could use Irradiated water from the divide or Salt water from Trona.
>>
Unfinished projects:
The Maximum Security Brain Vault (HUGE) (roughly 1/6-9 turns)
The Underground Farms (Large) (roughly 0/2-3turns)
>>
>>1903132
>HERO

return home and help integrate the new arrivals. Talk to our psychics, both so they are all getting along and about research.
throw a party for Sam

>construction/civilian/military (?)

send a robot and specialist group through to begin scouting and repairing MONTANA

>Construction 2

heavy weapons for the MLA

>Research

tiny cold fusion from MONTANA

>Robotic research

improve on the Brotherhood Behemoth designs. Make one for combat, and one for heavy traditional/replicator construction.

>Biological research

Anti-rad weapons made from the Anti-rad plants
>>
>>1903218
>heavy weapons for the MLA
Why do we need to make these?
>tiny cold fusion from MONTANA
Why do we need to research this?
>improve on the Brotherhood Behemoth designs. Make one for combat, and one for heavy traditional/replicator construction.
We don't have the Behemoth design yet.
>>
>>1903218
I really question the viability of shooting seeds as a weapon.

For One, It would probably just tear through the target and leave the other side or be destroyed by the forces that launch it from th egun

Second, I don't think mutants have much radiation in their bodies most of the time. Glowing ones, yes, but regular super mutants and ghouls don't even register on a geiger counter. 0 rads to feed off of.
>>
>>1903253
the plants are able to grow normally in the background radiation of the wasteland.

and some seed pods can survive pressures FAR in excess of those placed on bullets. as for over penertation? make the seed pod frangible on impact. childsplay for Dianna.

ghouls both normal and glowing, centaurs, and supermutants all have at least some radioactive material in them. just because they dont deal radiation damage doesnt mean they havent been irradiated. hell pretty much everything in the wasteland has some level of rads even if it isnt enough to cause rad damage.
>>
>>1903227
because it will help them fight the NCR to a stalemate

so we can put cold fusion inside mobile bases or large robots

I thought we did? or is that payment for the glider?
>>
>>1903293
>because it will help them fight the NCR to a stalemate
I don't see a reason to make more weapons for the MLA.
>so we can put cold fusion inside mobile bases or large robots
Why not use regular fusion cores/batteries?
>I thought we did? or is that payment for the glider?
Payment for the glider, which we have to research this turn.
>>
>>1903291
I don't think they grow that well, or a at all in background radiation. And they need water and such that they wouldn't have in a body.

can't make the seed pod too small though. You aren't going to get seeds smaller than a pine nut, so seed pods would be pretty big.

Most have very low levels of radiation, but not enough to be significant when growing the seeds.
>>
The Radiation Plants, at least the Shi Variant, are very particular and picky. According to NCR newspapers, not only do they require radiation to grow, but for decades they would only grow due to something in the Shi Soil that would allow them too, and their spread was made difficult.

The variant you have is the NCR modified variant which is able to bypass this limtation and has much better ability to grow, but still requires regular tending. In addition the fruit is radioactive and needs to be tended to or it can cause minor but significant spillage of radiation which is at least localized compared to the background radiation of the land.

NCR scientists predict that once America has been reconquered and most of the background radiation asborbed by the plant, any future gardens will need to be tended near nuclear power plants and radioactive waste dumps.
>>
Rolled 64 (1d100)

>>1903300
>Why not use regular fusion cores/batteries?
Well we don't have fusion cores. We do have alien batteries, but having something that can refuel off of plain water (depending on how OP treats it) would be advantageous.

>>1903161
Support and dice.
>>
Rolled 78 (1d100)

>>1903161
>>1903179
>>1903360
three votes.
Remember >>1903164 modification
>>
>>1903360
>Well we don't have fusion cores.
Yes we do, we have the option to equip our tankitron either with a alien battery (Bigger weakpoint) or a fusion core. (smaller/no weakpoint)
>>
Rolled 83 (1d100)

>>1903161
Supporting.
>>
>>1903413
Wasn't that a Fission Battery, not a Fusion Core?
>>
>>1903450
>Wasn't that a Fission Battery, not a Fusion Core?
I actually don't know, might have been a Fission battery.
>>
>>1903459
I seem to recall it being a fission battery. Fusion Cores seem like a fairly high-level technology that would require research to be able to reproduce.
>>
>>1903161
LOCKED

Will update as soon as I can
>>
>>1903413
Those are Fission Batteries actually.

Fission Battery (Never Need to Recharge - 0 impact on energy grid (this will be more significant when your robot pop gets higher. Smaller target)
Alien Energy Battery (Reliesg on energy grid. Bigger target.)

Alien Energy Batteries are somewhat less expensive than Fission Batteries of the same size.

From snippets of BigMT archives, some power armor Variants use Fusion Cores. It was a very late war change, but Fusion Cores could provide much more immediate power than Fission Batteries ever could, meaning they could power much heavier armor with greater capabilities (apparently almost twice their size). The drawback was that Fusion Cores had a very limited lifespan compared to Fission Batteries.

You've never seen such power armor, not even the Brotherhood or the Enclave in the West have it. You suspect they must have been sent to China or stockpiled somewhere else.
>>
>>1903634
The size of PA was large all along. If you compare the PA and normal sprites in F1/F2 you realize they are huge. Bethesda fucked up by making the PA small in F3/NV.

Thus, the size should be large and the fusion cores are an idiotic concept made because bethesda wanted to appeal to kiddies and dropped WAAY too many suits in the wasteland. F4 is a shit game overall and we should not draw too heavily on that.

Also, fusion requires hydrogen isotopes to work. That doesn not, however, mean it needs a lot of it. ITER uses 0,5 grams of hydrogen to produce 500 MW of power. This means a bucket would sustain your house for a lifetime and then some. It also means that if you stick a supply of 50 grams on to the core it should, realistically, run for centuries (like in older games, as it should).

This also means, to this anon >>1903177, that the actual consumption of water is VERY low. The only problem is extracting the isotopes we need and that takes bulk but doesnt actually waste anything.
>>
>>1903796
>Opinions
>>
>>1904020
Are you saying F4 is better than F2? Or that F4 PA is the first time PA has been larger than a man?

I dont know if you are stupid or if I just swallowed the bait but god dammit man.
>>
>>1903796
>missing the point: the post

by researching tiny, then micro fusion applications we can provide massive power for the cost of some water.

Huge, ultra durable power armor capable of hauling massive weapons around.

robots that are less robot and more mobile outposts.

as for our installations, I would prefer to just go find Chinese Hot Fusion. Not to mention the crapton of technology that was likely shipped to the front lines.

plus the chinese are likely to want to emigrate from the mothership to a genuine chinese outpost.

of course they will be shocked to learn that imperial china still intends to win the war via doomsday missile
>>
>>1904048
Whats your point? That we have to go into fusion? What a shocker. And that we can go bigger when we have better portable energy sources? You must be very proud of yourself for figuring that out. However, take into account that the reason the Ratte T-1000 wasnt built was the stupid ease with which it could be killed and the ungodly amount of infrastructure you need to utilize it. Smaller is near always better. UNLESS we figure out shield tech, so go throw your hat at that.

As to "hot fusion", it is an ocean away and unless we can get a sample on the current continent then it is currently not worth the bother. Maybe once we have Hawaii. As for the chinese we have on hand, resettle them in NV or in Newberry if need be. Water is not an issue with the better farms. This also allows us to better use the mothership stuck in our yard.
>>
>>1904078
My point originally was that you were missing the point by arguing pixel size comparisons, gameplay complaints, and nuclear physics.

Putting aside your insulting tone, larger power armor means more armor. More armor means a greater level of damage reduction. That is useful for both robots and power armor.

Shield tech may happen or it may not. It depends what we are given or research. Even if we do get it it may be so prohibitively energy intensive as to render it impractical without much more advanced alien versions. Or maybe not. Regardless man portable cold fusion is still useful. More so since energy shields need power as do energy weapons.

As for smaller being better I conditionally disagree. A mix of small medium and large units is probably the most effective. Both from a psychological warfare standpoint and a combined arms military standpoint.

We can easily fly across the Alaskan territory and down the coast to china. And since we have portals it could be located on Jupiter and it wouldn't matter one bit.

We might even find a bunch of awesome shit just in Alaska.
>>
>>1904142
He's pretty insulting, and has been for quite some time. I basically just ignore his opinion and hope most do it as well.
>>
>>1904142
Do you know why, when developing amror, speed and small size are very important factors? Because it doesnt matter how good the enemy weapon is if it cant hit you. As to more armor, it makes you slower and a bigger target.

If we use shield tech for armor we cut out on the bulk of the size of the object. This means less energy and time spent accelerating it. This means it can react faster and evade attacks/move around enough that it becomes difficult.

As to physics and pixels, Bethesda dun did fucked up and the fusion core concept is as shit as they come. PA loses its special quality and you are forced to lug around AAA batteries since your armor needs a change every 30 minutes (as opposed to the F1/2 PA that lasts centuries).

>>1904155
I apologize if I come off that way. It is not my goal. However when that one anon starts talking about his blatantly false concepts it gets me riled up. As to the previous anon, I dont see this as too much escalation considering his provocations.
>>
>>1904155
That sucks. Hopefully reasonable discussion is possible

Speaking of.

A few more ideas

>Burning Man

A suit of heavy fusion powered power armor with a saturnine outer layer. When needed the outer saturnine plating is electrically heated to white hot intensity. At the same time the radioactive waste water is vented and immediately turns into radioactive steam. This Armor deals heat and rad damage to everyone nearby making it ideal for shock troopers.

Also considering micro portals on either end of a heavy water chamber with integrated charged beam to produce a Cherenkov radiation "laser"

>>1904207
More available power in power armor results in more powerful servo Assist motors, this in turn allows you to carry more armor and heavier weapons without sacrificing mobility. Or if you still prefer a lighter model the extra energy can be used to improve weapon output, running speed, power a shield or what have you.

I don't know what you expect from energy shields, but they are most likely not the super tech you imagine. In all likelihood they will operate as an extra health barrier that is dependent on energy output. And here again portable fusion is useful!

As for Bethesda, we can argue the relative merits of game design all day long and not have a bit of impact on the quest. More importantly the QM chose the fusion battery interpretation that he chose. We work with what we have and improve it where we can.

Often times the concepts you are arguing simply do not apply to the fictional setting we are working with. A little bit of nuclear physics is interesting and perfectly fine. But Bethesda isn't made up of scientists and a lot of the concepts in game and in setting are not representative of the real world.

And that's fine. But you are arguing as if your points should overrule the QM, which is not. He chose not to use the Fallout 1/2 version. I might not agree with that, but I'm not running the quest.
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>>1904273
>Burning Man
Would cook the dude inside pretty quick. Besides, if you want AoE use tesla coils and shock. Less unpredictable, more targeted and if you turn it off its gone (unlike radiation).

Also Cherenkov radiation is not that great. If you want damage, a particle accelerator is better. Especially if you can build it big and bulky and only portal in the beam.

>>1904273
>more powerful servo Assist motors
Doesnt really work like that. Have you noticed how, the larger a machine is, the slower it moves? You can do it up to a point but too much mass and it slows down. As to more agility, always yes.

>>1904273
>but they are most likely not the super tech you imagine
Considering an alien could just stand and take shots from dozens of MKV protectrons, PA soldiers and a mini nuke I think shields are exactly as good as I think they are.

>>1904273
>Often times the concepts you are arguing simply do not apply to the fictional setting we are working with.
Considering how Black Isle built up their game I dont see how it would differ from IRL mechanics all that much. ESPECIALLY when it comes to basic physics.

>>1904273
>overrule the QM
I dont presume it should. However, I want QM to take into account the lore OR provide us with an idea of what is different. Far too often we are thrust into situations that conflict with established Fallout lore or are just plain absurd (looking at you, "Vault metal").
>>
>>1904355
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Saturnite_fist_super-heated

this should boil your hand off. the fact it doesn't is proof of concept for a wide range of heat weapons, as well as improved drilling efficiency in our subterines.

i just figured Sonia would appreciate a Radiation Laser.

Up to a point power armor does indeed work like that as evidenced by the QM informing us that the US had developed that very thing. Also while agility is fine and good and we should develop a "fast suit" we again need to have realistic expectations. gatling weapons can hit even the fastest characters through sheer volume of fire.

that is the hyper advanced alien shield. we should absolutely pursue both the forcefield and inertial dampening fields from alien tech. just dont be surprised when they have enourmous energy requirements that make portals look cheap.

dude, look at a picture of a Mr. Handy and then tell me the games use real world physics. it has a perpetual rocket based hover.
>>
>>1904396
>it has a perpetual rocket based hover.
You have a point. All the nonsense basically boils down to Bethesda fucking things up. I agree that the rules are bendy but if we go by this then a perpetually flying drone should be no problem. And as we have seen, that is not the case. Hence my problem. No consistency.

>>1904396
>this should boil your hand off. the fact it doesn't is proof of concept for a wide range of heat weapons
Again, exactly my point.
>>
>>1904410
Mr handys existed in fallout 1, perpetual hover and all. Not everything you dont like is bethesda and the old games weren't perfect.
>>
>>1904396
>gatling weapons can hit even the fastest characters through sheer volume of fire.
Considering small caliber and shielding, we really only have to worry about AT weapons.

>>1904429
>Mr handys existed in fallout 1
Right you are. Thought they were Eyebot style but was mistaken. Jet engines are a bit better than rockets but I fold regardless.

Doesnt address the consistency problem though. My main concern though. We are randomly hindered because "balance".
>>
>>1904454
if we REALLY want to go full agile, we should develop an agility focused power armor with built in Chem Stacking and mini auto-doc unit.

a full chem stack adds some ridiculous SPECIAL modifiers, tons of extra AP, damage resistance, and more. It can take an average person and turn them into a whirlwind of death. and thats BEFORE we unleash Dianna's biological research to create hyperchems. The Auto-doc can automatically cure addiction after combat.
>>
>>1904612
Also add jetpacks for vertical movement. The better servos faster movement works more on lighter suits and we can compensate with alien tech and shields where needed.

Try to hit that asshole who runs, dodges and jetpacks all over the place while peppering you with plasmabolts from all angles. Now add 15 of his buddies with various other heavy weapons. This would also help us better use the human aspect. Specialists instead of frontline grunts (we have the bots for that).
>>
>>1904703
It's slightly unethical, but if we study Dianna's ZAX linked dual brain system we could replicate it.

Specifically we could take our best and brightest scientists like someone with 10 INT and relevant perks. We de brain them and hook each half of their brain up to its own ZAX. Then we pump in hyper versions of Daddy-O and Orange Mentat.

That's a ZAX enhanced intelligence with a native INT of 18!
>>
>>1904791
Unethical is no concern. However I dont think QM will let us have free ZAX units until waaay later, if ever. I do wholly support the plan, however. We could also see about making a brain cocktail to replace medgel with. Something akin to mentats and cocaine. Just have to find a way to mitigate the side effects.
>>
>>1904791
Is there any difference between diane's zax and ours though? Doesnt seem like it.
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>>1904862
Dianna is one brain with her right and left hemispheres each hooked up to its own ZAX.

With our better understanding of neurology we can improve on the design.
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>>1904930
I dont see how. Brains are the main source of processing for our zax's, so adding more of the metal bits would eventually reach peak capacity.
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>>1904948
its not about strictly adding more processing power, its about improving interBrain resource allocation. Just as specializing left hemisphere creativity and right sphere analytical processing results in improved performance, so too in like manner isolating mathematic creativity/analytics, 3 dimensional visualization C/A, Mechanical aptitude C/A and so on.

taken a step further, cloned neural tissue can be linked to the system and due to plasticity it will naturally take up tasks as it adapts to input.

taken even further still the entire assembly can be exposed to targeted light of a specofic wavelength to promote neural growth further increasing the ability to solve diffocult problems.

add in nootropics or mental stimulant chems and things get a bit crazy.
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>>1905127
Yeah, but i'm fairly certain 2 is the maximum divisions a brain can go under before it starts loosing itself. Andwe likely are maximizing the capabilities of our zax are probably already maximized with the lights from the light switch that improves intelligence, as well as the mental boosting drugs we have.
>>
>>1905180
you might be right.

perhaps a cloned Alien brain? raised in VR to consider itself Human or Human sympathetic?

all we need is a DNA sample.
>>
>>1905200
I dont see the poitn in raising brains to believe anything. Computers with personalities just seems unneccesary.

Were researching processing chips, so we should be able to make brains obselete- we can make computers as smart as we want, just add more processors.
>>
>>1904048
Why do we need to research Fusion cores when QM just confirmed that fission batteries last longer?
>>
>>1905322
because Aliens may have an inherently more logical brain or one more adept at learning. And because you dont want one to go "Kill All Humans"

also, all silicon AIs lack flexibility and creativity. thats why PreWar groups used brains in the first place.

>>1905408
fission lasts longer. Fusion has a much greater output. therefore you can do more with it.

Also the shelf life applies predominantly to smaller "battery" units such as those used to power advanced power armors.
>>
>>1905322
additionally, you could place groups of brains into time accelerated VR simulations where they need to solve a problem.

say power generation in the wasteland, or FEV research.

by altering the rate at which they perceive time you produce more ideas, the feasability of which can be checked near instantly via ZAX
>>
>>1905322
You forget that the Forecaster foretold that there would be both positive and negative consequences if we continue researching synthetic brains.
Also i see some anons are forgetting that clone brains don't work.
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>>1905738
If we want logical, then cybernetic processors and machines would be best, not organics. Computers are superior at numbers, and logical decision making.

As for AIs on silicon hardware lacking flexibility, there is no real proof of that. And anyways, creativity becomes less important when combined with high level probability analyses, simulating 1000s of random tactical decisions in a minute to settle on the logically superior one.

>>1905751
That's setting up am accelerated vr program to bring human brains up to machine speed, which sounds like unnecessary steps compared to having machine brains spending time without the need of vr support. Difference between recording a tv show with a camera and recording with a dvr.
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>>1905786
Synths, are the trouble the forecaster foretold.

I'm thinking more about building PAMs
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Predictive_Analytic_Machine

pure metal and silicon purpose build to predict the optimal decisions to be made in any situation. Get a bunch of them, link them to the army, and our robots acting in the way that accomplishes our goal according to hard numbers. Provided we have suitable intel, but that can be remedied eventually.
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>>1905846
>Synths, are the trouble the forecaster foretold.
I know, which is why i think we should avoid researching more advanced processors.
PAMs is a good place to stop.
>>
>>1905864
Well synths are a different build path than PAM. synths are replicating the human condition in an artificial construct, which is different from analysis and prediction super computers. The goal of raw intelligence vs artificial humanity.
>>
>>1904023
Well I found FO2 unplayable, meanwhile I've played quite a bit of FO4.

Take from that what you will.
>>
Finally! Done with my project for the day. Time to start updating the new turn.
>>
>>1906324
Lack of commitment in the face of hardships and being used to hand holding. Also, the F4 perk system is such a step down its sad. Skyrim did it marginally better but the whole trend is easier gameplay and dumbed-down systems to suck in the 12-year old masses.
>>
>>1906324
>Unplayable
Wew lad, You are a child then if you found it that way. God help you for having to put up with the trash of F4
>>
>>1906324
I will admit the first two Fallout Games had a sharp learning curve.

My first lesson was figuring out you could run away from stuff in Fallout 1. Fallout 2 getting out of the cave was a crapshoot until I realized I needed to stop getting such low End/Str builds.
>>
>>1907042
You mean Agi/Int. You could become a god with it. Besides, PA takes care of the Str/End deficiencies.

QM, will we continue or are you busy? Also, how much of the alien ship are the Chinese in and would they consider moving to Newberry, provided we give them underground farms and a few replicators to have fun with (also shipments of steel and fissile from the Divide for them to set up shop and start their own R&D and industry projects (like further scavenging the divide)).
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>>1907060
Have them set up largely underground (protected both from the sun and from bombardment) and funnel them some resources to get them started.
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>>1907060
Hey guys leave your home so I can research it

Okay!

They might agree if we set up an outpost in China seeing how they aspire to retake the Homeland. We could even begin research now in order to make the Outpost seem "more like home"
>>
>>1906930
>Implying lack of commitment in the face of hardships in my vidya is a bad thing
>Opinions
>>1906940
>You're having badwrongfun!
>>
>>1907155
They wanted a nice place. We can give them Newberry with its lake and gve them the opportunity to make a nice place for themselves. Since it is not irradiated it should be fine, if a little fixer-upper. As to china, that is the worst time of spreading thin. We can have them branch out later along the line (NV is a good idea) but they are occupying a huge mound of resources right now. Especially since we are talking about alien alloys and tech.

>>1907157
>I dont like if the game is hard and I have to overcome obstacles before I get my loot.
>I want the game to hold my hand and tell me I am special or Ill get upset.
>F4 is fun after you take a look around the place.
>>
>>1907162
I don't think you understand how people work. Every time a government tries to relocate people there is always a negative reaction. Always.

This happens even in cases where staying in their oh so precious home will likely result in imminent death. Just look at the dumb asses who stick around during hurricanes.

And evacuations are just temporary, how much worse will it be trying to get them to move permanently?

The only reasonable way to get them to move is to offer them something they REALLY want. Like their true homeland and heritage.
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>>1907194
I agree with you on all points. They will likely grumble and it wont go flawlessly but they themselves wanted a nice place to settle. They did not, however, single out China. Meaning that a sufficiently nice location closeby would also be acceptable. Hence why I want to put them next to the clean water lake.

As to why I want it done sooner: they themselves said that they will either settle the wreck or a nice place we provide. Since we have not moved them anywhere it stands to reason they have expanded into the mothership. My reasoning is that the sooner we get them out the less problem they will be and the sooner we can fully access the structure to scrap and reverse engineer. Otherwise I fear we waste the opportunity to incorporate alien tech and potentially end up with a situation where the chinese dont want to leave. Besides, if we move them to Newberry now, it can remain as a military site for Dragoons when better land becomes available (NV area mostly).

Ideas, counter arguments?
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>>1907060
I started last night, yes you will continue today.
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>>1907060
>>1907162
You guys drained the lake in Newberry. They have enough water as they need in the Spaceship, and when venturing out would look for a place that has at least that much.
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>>1907199
I would prefer repair and study od the mothership to scrap and reverse engineer.

there is no guarantee we can duplicate the tech with our existing tools so scrapping migh be detrimental. And having a hovering mothership base is cool as hell.

As for relocation, I prefer China for various reasons. Most notably because the indigenous Imperial Chinese remnants will probably react better the them than to us. And it could net us late war tech that is superior to currently available models.

thinking ahead, we could develop invisible scout ship/fighter hybrids powered by microFusion or Fission batteries. not to mention Gauss miniguns, superior chinese stealth tech, better power armors, the doomsday missile, and whatever the Chinese use instead of ZAX.

Honestly I sort of want to just take over the forbidden city.
>>
>>1907234
Seeing as the increase to water supply wasnt that big and with the new underground farming techniques + better plants our water need should drop drastically while our food supply should rise as well. Besides, with a constant water supply we either stored the water somewhere here or the sources we have are large enough. We would simply need to pump the water back to newberry and water fewer gardens here until we can get a bigger purifier up.

Also, would they be content with Newberry at first (promise better land down the line in the form of parts of NV, greenery and everything)?

Also, how long does it normally take you to write? How many things do you do while running a quest? What I mean is that the frequency of posts is low and that dissipates participants. If you need to do something, do it.
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>>1907241
If you want chinese tech, go kill the Shi. Otherwise we will spread ourselves too thin (considering we have 300 some citizens that is saying much). If we want a leg in the door with local chinese we can take a contingent of dragoons with us when we eventually go there. Currently, I dont see the point. MAYBE a hero quest but nothing more. We are currently expanding into Montana as is and that takes resources away.

And on the mothership, if we CAN repair it, good. With how much Crypto blew up I wouldnt be surprised if making a new one isnt cheaper. Also, the slagged alien alloy is useful for bots.

Besides, the look on Oddball when NW lifts off and vaporizes his casino would be priceless. Also superweapons.
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>>1907248
the Shi are, for all their progress, a stranded remnant.

Montana does require resources, thats why I suggest we use it as a staging ground for "civilization engines". By which I mean large self sufficient construction/combat robots capable of using replication to construct buildings and robots and the like. microportal communication would allow them to remain in constant contact with us.

when they encounter a settlement they would analyze it. if its relatively benign the robot will construct a basic outpost and clinic with robotic staff nearby. if its raiders or something worse then the robot would mininuke them off the face of the earth.

if overwhelmed the robot would use its reactor to self destruct preventing our tech from being stolen, and hopefully weakening potential enemies.
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>>1907268
And yet the Shi have most all the fancy tech we would need. Especially if you take their subs into account (stealth and all).

As to the concept of replicator walking around, no. That leaves highly valuable tech to be found by wandering idiots. A rigged portal network is ok (nukes on the machines that go off when the portal is shut down, for example) and would allow the robot (behemoth chassis?) to magic stuff out of thin air without losing any valuable tech (replicator or portals, robot chassis are irrelevant).
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>>1907244
I apologize, this is definitely not my usual speed. Again I'm dealing with several issues at hand right now, and I'm hoping to find that sweet spot.

I appreciate you anons for staying with my through the quest despite how slow things are going, and promise that I won't abandon it.
>>
>>1905830
>If we want logical, then cybernetic processors and machines would be best, not organics. Computers are superior at numbers, and logical decision making.
Actually we have no reason to believe that. I mean pre-war the US was investing in making better computers and shit and they found that brains worked far better than conventional electric computers.

Even if that isn't the case fact is we can afford to continue using brains for a fair while longer thanks to Montana's population of slavers, raiders and mad men.

>>1905846
I've been saying we should grab PAM for ages. If nothing else because it'll make criminal law / prosecution so much easier in combination with our omnipresent surveillance system providing data.

>>1907268
I agree on the whole with you but I'd advise that you don't mini-nuke raiders. Realistically we want their brains for airforce drone control bases (something you should have them build in the region since they can move faster / more easily than ground forces allowing us to protect our...new citizens).

Also, the Shi have relatively little tech most likely given that they'd had no access to their people's technology. They were just a sub crew where as we have a fully military base / town. So ignoring china or a forward base of the Chinese I doubt we'd get better tech, however we do need to fix their corrupted files if we want access to most of it.
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>>1907295
hey man, deal with your stuff first. we will be sitting around autisticaly arguing the merits of hypothetical technologies in fictional settings

>>1907343
>>1905846
PAM is an excellent idea, especially if we have several of them in a "quilting circle".

Of course, the pinnacle of predictive analysis is a psychic brain linked to a ZAX. That could take into account even the appearance of Individuals like The Courier, The Vault Dweller, The Sole Survivor, etc.

with a system like that supported by PAMs we could easily exceed Houses predictive models.

Total Omnipresent Psionic-Hueristic Analysis Technology

>>1907343
The shi have tech sufficient to repair and build power armor. that puts them ahead of most of the wasteland. Imagine what Chinese mainland remnants can do?

Not that I expect most people to care, but debraining raiders en masse is EXACTLY the type of shit that makes the BoS, random Wanderers, and others think your faction is full Evil Karma. yes they are raiders and noone gives a shit, but if someone stumbles on a fuckton of brains inna jar hows that look?

To say nothing about the unfortunate parallels between our current state and the formation of the BoS.

If we keep it up with the scientific and social atrocities we WILL face either an internal rebellion or attention from an enemy we dont want.

having said that I just used mininukes as an example. it could be anything really.
>>
>>1907343
>Actually we have no reason to believe that
Well looking at logic engines, the emperor and PAM, we see they are fully manufactured, while cyber brains still retain personality quirks from their previous life. According to the wiki, crazy brain makes a crazy cyberbrain even after being wiped.

>Even if that isn't the case fact is we can afford to continue using brains for a fair while longer thanks to Montana's population of slavers, raiders and mad men.
We dont exactly have the infrastructure for mass harvesting of brains from Montanna. We do have the ibfrastructure for putting together plastic and silicon to make artificial processors.
>>
We should visit Switzerland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha66FfC-N18
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>>1907398
>Of course, the pinnacle of predictive analysis is a psychic brain linked to a ZAX. That could take into account even the appearance of Individuals like The Courier, The Vault Dweller, The Sole Survivor, etc.
Except we've been stated to not be predictable by psychic means. Mostly because players but still, we shouldn't discount others being "players" in this grand game of nations.

>Total Omnipresent Psionic-Hueristic Analysis Technology
I believe the term we are looking for is Pan-opticon meaning all-sight / all-seeing but yeah.

>The shi have tech sufficient to repair and build power armor. that puts them ahead of most of the wasteland. Imagine what Chinese mainland remnants can do?
Actually if you read into the Fallout lore the implication is that the Chinese never developed PA. My theory is that either the NCR has fused Chinese / american tech (possible but hard), found an american project based off of the Chinese stuff (like our stealth suit but PA) or most unlikely, found a Chinese secret project or something. Unlikely but possible.

>Not that I expect most people to care, but de-braining raiders en masse is EXACTLY the type of shit that makes the BoS, random Wanderers, and others think your faction is full Evil Karma.
Not really, hell even our most moral people (Read: Arcade) didn't stop us from literally torturing a bunch of raiders for science. This is positively tame by comparison seeing as we'd be wiping their brains and thus effectively killing them.

>yes they are raiders and no one gives a shit, but if someone stumbles on a fuckton of brains inna jar hows that look?
Questionable but I'd point out that these are to be stored in the middle of a military outpost, if they are finding them they are already at war with us or spying on us. Seeing as it'd be in a sealed off section similar to the Big Mt brain vault but smaller. Assuming we didn't just decide to store the brains there and use teleport-communication systems to control the bases rather than local command / control.

>To say nothing about the unfortunate parallels between our current state and the formation of the BoS.
Do you mean the MLA?

>If we keep it up with the scientific and social atrocities we WILL face either an internal rebellion or attention from an enemy we dont want.
Not really. Also, we've committed no actual atrocities. That'd be unleashing the New Plague into the NCR capital and other major cities or into the Legion's civil centres or using a dirty bomb or something.

Also, social atrocities?

>having said that I just used mini-nukes as an example. it could be anything really.
Fair enough but there is such a thing as over kill for us. Mini-nukes are expensive man.
>>
>>1907403
Both The Shi Emperor and PAM are best at logical predictions. The Emperor isn't even an AI, just a very advanced calculation engine.
>>
>>1907403
>Well looking at logic engines, the emperor and PAM, we see they are fully manufactured,
The emperor is non-sentient and PAM is...limited in capability beyond "her" initial program to the point of being kinda funny.

>while cyber brains still retain personality quirks from their previous life.
Only in some cases and many of them were made to maintain those traits intentionally or developed them post-war.

>According to the wiki, crazy brain makes a crazy cyber-brain even after being wiped.
Well yeah if you take a broken computer, wipe all of it's memory and reinstall shit, it'll potentially still be a broken computer. Also the wiki is based off of the post-war robots, who have been left for 200+ years without their memories being wiped which is listed on the wiki as being a needed part of their maintenance. It also states that the fault lies in their programming in many cases assuming that you take FO 3 as a source since in that the robo-brains will frequently apologise or warn you of their intent to kill you and how they don't want to do it essentially.

>>1907418
Switzerland along with all of Europe and the middle east fell apart pre-war. Chances are there's little there of interest.
>>
>>1907449
>>1907452
Exactly my point. Personalities are pointless when what we want is just numerically arriving at the optimal course of action. Ask what to do, and it gives the best answer with the variables it has.
>>
>>1907452
>Many of these criminals were insane, so the resulting robobrains also tended to be unstable, despite complete reprogramming[3] via the CODE technology
So it seems insanity is a physical defect on the brain which carries over, even when the robo brain is fresh.
>>
>>1907446
It's been shown that visions can happen about such people if they are present. And looking for a "blackout spot" could predict Players by negative conformation.

TOPHAT. I like stupid acronyms.

Yeah the Chinese preferred stealth and rapid strikes to armor and heavy weapons. That might not be the case anymore. It depends how the American forces trapped in China fared.

I'm not saying we can't do it, we just need to be VERY careful to offset our (very-real) crimes against humanity with things that are very beneficial. Also we have Charisma 10, of course Arcade went along. Doesn't mean he likes it.

Take the brother/sister vivisection logs for example. If those were to leak they would make us look like Uber Hitler. The viewer can't tell that both of them are incestuous cannibal assholes. Same with Dianna and the other 40 or so people we tortured to death.

Even the idea of debraining is likely horrifying to the average NCR citizen or BoS paladin. So it's not about morality, but rather PR control.

The BoS formed when Maxon found out that the scientist they were guarding were committing horrible FEV related experiments on prisoners of war. The soldiers freaked out and gunned most of the science guys down.
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>>1907462
>Exactly my point. Personalities are pointless when what we want is just numerically arriving at the optimal course of action. Ask what to do, and it gives the best answer with the variables it has.
Yeah and as lovely as that is I fail to see what that has to do with the biological / electronic debate. Seeing as the development of personality is more so caused by time and the power of the computational system than by the inherent nature of the medium in use. It's just the case that robo-brains were far more common and a far newer technology that causes so many issues. Still I'd point out that giving them personalities ain't exactly a necessity it's just the pre-war world was mostly using AI's in places where having them be "people" worked well. Since they wanted them to be creative and shit.

>>1907465
Insanity in real life is caused by too many different factors to really describe accurately a universal cause but generally, it is a chemical imbalance or malformation of the brain. The former can be treated by application of chemicals, traditionally pills or injections, or alterations to life style. The latter is something beyond modern ability for the most part but perhaps not Fallout...seeing what we know about the brain we should be able to fix brains as we wish or need rendering this a non-issue.
>>
>>1907473
>It's been shown that visions can happen about such people if they are present.
When? I don't remember that...

>And looking for a "blackout spot" could predict Players by negative conformation.
True.

>TOPHAT. I like stupid acronyms.
I named the TACT. I also care for stupid acronyms.

>Yeah the Chinese preferred stealth and rapid strikes to armor and heavy weapons. That might not be the case anymore. It depends how the American forces trapped in China fared.
I don't think there were many if any trapped in the US. Seeing as the US kinda did a PA-based lightning war and the Chinese had a fairly good way to get home what with them controlling Alaska. Although you may have a point but PA took decades for the US to develop and the trapped, resource starved Chinese got something like that working? I doubt it.

>I'm not saying we can't do it, we just need to be VERY careful to offset our (very-real) crimes against humanity with things that are very beneficial.
We have a complete collection of cures / immunisations for pre-war diseases, feed, clothe, house, educate and protect all of our citizens, provide them with jobs along with planning to extend this across the entire state of Montana and further. We also free slaves, cure their disabilities and all that shit.

>Also we have Charisma 10, of course Arcade went along. Doesn't mean he likes it.
Yeah and to be frank you have a point but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have tried to convince us otherwise and shit.

>Take the brother/sister vivisection logs for example. If those were to leak they would make us look like Uber Hitler. The viewer can't tell that both of them are incestuous cannibal assholes.
True but I doubt we've exactly kept the actual video logs around now we've gotten the information we need. That shit is a liability without reason.

>Same with Dianna and the other 40 or so people we tortured to death.
We've not done anything to Diana besides the Mind chip but if you are referring to that, fair enough.

>Even the idea of debraining is likely horrifying to the average NCR citizen or BoS paladin. So it's not about morality, but rather PR control.
NCR maybe (I still doubt it but hey, maybe a fair few of them) but the BOS slaughter raiders and would probably congratulate us for finding a use for at least some of them.

>The BoS formed when Maxon found out that the scientist they were guarding were committing horrible FEV related experiments on prisoners of war. The soldiers freaked out and gunned most of the science guys down.
Yeah because they'd never been informed about it and they were doing it to POW's and US citizens. Two groups that should've been protected and shit.

Plus, the pre-war population was a bit more caring at least than the post-war. I can say that much for certain.
>>
>>1907482
>Yeah and as lovely as that is I fail to see what that has to do with the biological / electronic debate
Electronic brains seem to be best for logical analysis, seeing how electronics were used for supercomputers in the old wolrd rather than human brains.
Robo-brains were also not built for creativity, but to be able to operate better, while still slaves to programming, just like normal robots.

>Insanity in real life is caused by too many different factors to really...
Yeah, but in universe it seems that insane brains make insane bots, so we kinda stuck operating off that logic.
As for fixing the brains, if we can fix them easily, why not fix them while they're in the heads of the people? Making someone sane would go a long way to making them loyal. Seems like a good way to get people.
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>>1907492
>NCR maybe (I still doubt it but hey, maybe a fair few of them) but the BOS slaughter raiders and would probably congratulate us for finding a use for at least some of them.
I don't think so. Raiders are scum, but they are human scum. Technological atrocities are likely out of the question on any human.
Remember, the BOS went to the commenwealth because synths existed, not because they knew they were an active threat.
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>>1907513
>Electronic brains seem to be best for logical analysis, seeing how electronics were used for supercomputers in the old wolrd rather than human brains.
True but seeing as making a ZAX would essentially drain our entire fissile stock without a boon, human brains are best. They are compact, power efficient and easy to source.

>Robo-brains were also not built for creativity, but to be able to operate better, while still slaves to programming, just like normal robots.
Aye which is what you are seemingly wanting since you don't want it to be sentient. To be fair this is something OP'd need to come in on honestly.

>Yeah, but in universe it seems that insane brains make insane bots, so we kinda stuck operating off that logic.
And I've shown multiple reasons in universe why this may not be the case. So, no, we aren't "stuck" operating off that logic.

>As for fixing the brains, if we can fix them easily, why not fix them while they're in the heads of the people?
Because that means we can't have a cheap drone air force in regards to command and control? Because the means keeping ex-raiders alive?

>Making someone sane would go a long way to making them loyal. Seems like a good way to get people.
Well, because that doesn't actually do as good for our PR. People hate raiders. I don't think they'd care if we promise they are totally cured if that bastard had fucked their wife in the eye or something. Also, they lack basically any skills and we need the brains.

>>1907518
Actually no. The BOS went to Boston because the existence of synths IS an active threat. Since the official position of the BOS (In FO 4) is that machines that think they are human or are sentient are abhorrent by their very nature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ql-qjw9u18

They literally don't care about anything you are implying. They just don't like Synths, AIs and other such things.
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>>1907541
>True but seeing as making a ZAX would essentially drain our entire fissile stock without a boon, human brains are best. They are compact, power efficient and easy to source.
Who said anything about a ZAX? Anyways, a zax is already 99% computer parts by weight, so making a cyberneticprocessor out of metal shouldnt impact over all cost. The brain is actually a small part of the whole computer

>And I've shown multiple reasons in universe why this may not be the case. So, no, we aren't "stuck" operating off that logic.
Im just going of the wiki. It says crazy people = crazy robots. OP would have to comment to be sure of how things work here.

>Because that means we can't have a cheap drone air force in regards to command and control? Because the means keeping ex-raiders alive?
But they would have been insane people cured of their insanity, based on what I'm saying. So just because they were raiders in the past does not Have any real bearing on what to do with them now.

>Well, because that doesn't actually do as good for our PR. People hate raiders. I don't think they'd care if we promise they are totally cured if that bastard had fucked their wife in the eye or something. Also, they lack basically any skills and we need the brains.
Well, punishments should be to correct bad behavior, not to scratch anyones vengeance itch, so if they don't like rehabilitated raiders we could put the 10 charisma to use.
And we only need brains while we dont have an alternative. Which we are developing now, so it's possible brains would become obselete soon.

>Actually no. The BOS went to Boston because the existence of synths IS an active threat.
They deemed it an active threat based on the synths existence, Not because of the synths were being hostile in any way. It turned out that the institute was using synths for nefarious purposes, but the BOS didnt know that in the beginning. The BOS would have responded the same if the Institute was using synths only as free farmers.
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>>1907492
Psychics can occasionally predict future events about the Player in Fallout.

I was referring to American Forces trapped in China. Logically there had to be some.

Yeah we do a LOT of good, but we wouldn't be the first organization in the wasteland to hide behind a beneficial front.

The records of the vivisection experiments are probably preserved somewhere. The Think Tank probably views them like any other experiment logs.

I was talking about the mind chip, yes. We did after all get it out of the "atrocities never to be used" drawer.

The BoS avoids advanced meditech, and the NCR is conservatively human in outlook. Both would think debraining is horrifying.

The full extent of our dealings with Dianna and our experiments with brains are not public knowledge. Both would spark outrage in Brain Rights activists.

Further as it stands a single individual could cripple our entire civilization in under two days.
>>
Ideas

>FEV LAB
Modified FEV works best on pure, non irradiated pre war genetic structures. We have a library of every plant and animal ever to have existed on earth in the Nursery.

Hyper-dogs, Mutant Rhinos, and swarms of FEV mosquitoes are just the tip of the iceberg.

Dianna will hate this idea, consider building it in an isolated location over a nuke.
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>>1907607
>I was referring to American Forces trapped in China. Logically there had to be some.
There probably were aome after the bombs dropped, but soldiers in hostile territory, with no logistics would be slaughtered. Especially since to the chinese survivors, theses soldiers juat nuked them. Its likely the chinese slaughtered all americans on their soil in the 200 years that passed.
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>>1907619
I know you're just trowing ideas around but why would we want FEV animals?
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>>1907601
>Who said anything about a ZAX?
You were talking about pre-war super computers. The ZAX line were the best of them

>Anyways, a zax is already 99% computer parts by weight, so making a cybernetic processor out of metal shouldn't impact over all cost. The brain is actually a small part of the whole computer
I don't follow your point.

>Im just going of the wiki. It says crazy people = crazy robots. OP would have to comment to be sure of how things work here.
Aye he would but I am telling you that that same wiki page also gives plenty of proof to suggest that human brains are perfectly reliable if used correctly.

>But they would have been insane people cured of their insanity, based on what I'm saying.
Aye and I acknowledge that but to be frank, we don't need more people with no marketable skills besides killing, rape and doing drugs.

>So just because they were raiders in the past does not Have any real bearing on what to do with them now.
Aye but it does effect people's opinion of us. For bothering to expend so much effort to save their life when that effort could've been used elsewhere and for keeping them alive in general.

>Well, punishments should be to correct bad behaviour, not to scratch anyone's vengeance itch, so if they don't like rehabilitated raiders we could put the 10 charisma to use.
You feel you can convince someone to look at a raider, someone they know has committed horrifying acts repeatedly of their own accord, and then let them live and work near them and their family. Not gonna happen and even if it could you'd be talking about going around every community in Montana. I am trying to tell you this is a massive and retarded waste of resources that'll kill good will in the region.

>And we only need brains while we dont have an alternative. Which we are developing now, so it's possible brains would become obselete soon.
No. It won't. Brains are cheap, plentiful and the technology exists to exploit them. What you are talking about is a ludicrous concept where not only can we spare the resources to create such machine-minds but we ignore a plentiful and existing supply of usable human ones.

>They deemed it an active threat based on the synths existence,
Aye like I said.

>Not because of the synths were being hostile in any way. It turned out that the institute was using synths for nefarious purposes, but the BOS didn't know that in the beginning. The BOS would have responded the same if the Institute was using synths only as free farmers.
Aye like I said. Also, you seem to be missing a large portion of what I am saying or at least the points behind it. That point being at least in this section that you are wrong and the BOS doesn't give a toss about "Technological atrocities...on any human" especially raiders.
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>>1907607
>Psychics can occasionally predict future events about the Player in Fallout.
True but these are mostly vague points about locations or events that will happen with or without the player.

>I was referring to American Forces trapped in China. Logically there had to be some.
True but I'd point out that they'd probably be dead and that the NCR would have no way of getting their shit most likely.

>Yeah we do a LOT of good, but we wouldn't be the first organization in the wasteland to hide behind a beneficial front.
True but I've proven my counterargument and you concede your point? That we must balance our actions against morality with things that are "very beneficial"?

>The records of the vivisection experiments are probably preserved somewhere. The Think Tank probably views them like any other experiment logs.
All the better. No humans were involved (that are still alive) and we aren't in frame most of the time if any of the time. We can keep them and slap a pre-war date on them.

>I was talking about the mind chip, yes. We did after all get it out of the "atrocities never to be used" drawer.
True but I wanted to be sure.

>The BoS avoids advanced meditech,
What? The Midwestern BOS leader is a brain in a glass tube and they somehow avoid advanced med tech? They have an entire order of tech-warriors with robo-limbs and all the rest yet they don't use advanced medical technology?

>NCR is conservatively human in outlook.
True but their people are fine with all the shit their government does and pushes for.

>Both would think debraining is horrifying.
Yet our people didn't.

>The full extent of our dealings with Dianna and our experiments with brains are not public knowledge.
I've been saying for quite sometime people should know about some of this shit but Diana isn't being mentioned to anyone anywhere because no one knows about her yet besides a few of us at the top at most. Potentially just us and Brain.

>Both would spark outrage in Brain Rights activists.
Diana true but the experiments not really, seeing as we convinced our most moral people to allow it to happen even if they couldn't stomach being involved.
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>>1907162
It's quite a nice strawman you've got set up there, almost makes me sad that in the real world there's a whole range of difficulties and experiences in video that people enjoy for different reasons. Not to mention that that you can't actually point out anything wrong with people who do want the game to hold their hand and tell them they're special.
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>>1907726
we could go get cool shit from living or dead american forces in China

having disease cures and not distributing them to everyone can, on its own, be seen in a very negative light. we are moving in the right direction though.

slapping a prewar date on them is a terrible cover up. they are clearly post war individuals. plus, again, the Brains dont think anything that happened there was wrong AT ALL.

Arcade: what the heck is this?
Them: Ah yes, brain disection, very useful.
Arcade:who allowed this?!
Them: The president is an understanding man of SCIENCE!
Arcade:(Horror)

is it likely? no not really. But if it did happen it would be a serious blow to our reputation.

yeah the Midwestern and old BoS did things differently of i recall correctly. but you are completely right thay the branch we are dealing with has researched medical.

the average NCR citizen knows very little about the shadier aspects of the NCR.

our people are on board with debraining. Any other faction in the wasteland would consider us monsters. or at best a serious threat to be destroyed.

convincing Arcade to swallow his doubts and play ball is a far cry from convincing a society that its okay for people to be tortured to death in the scientifically most painful fashion possible while destroying the true essense of what makes them an individual. While they can access the video and see for themselves.

all i am saying is its a liability. dont be surprised when it bites us in the ass.
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>>1907705
>I don't follow your point.
You raised the point zaxs were expensive. I was merely stating cybernetic processors would not increase costs too much, relatively. A 15 cm cube of silicon and metal shouldnt cost us much to produce.

Aye he would but I am telling you that that same wiki page also gives plenty of proof to suggest that human brains are perfectly reliable if used correctly.
Could you quote the relevent passage? The obly but on operating correctly is the part about how the criminals didnt work out for the most part.

>Aye but it does effect people's opinion of us. For bothering to expend so much effort to save their life when that effort could've been used elsewhere and for keeping them alive in general.
Would it be that much effort? And its not like its the raiders or our citizens, so its not li the resources would be uaed otherwise to save them.

>You feel you can convince someone to look at a raider, someone they know has committed horrifying acts repeatedly of their own accord, and then let them live and work near them and their family...
Takes a but of compassion, but is possible. And we wouldnt just be dumping the rehabed raiders willy nilly in random communities. Work with one community to set up proof of concept, use the success of the program in one community to sell it to others. Think about it like parole.

>No. It won't. Brains are cheap, plentiful and the technology exists to exploit them. What ...
Except we dont have the infrastructure to support excessive amounts of brain extractions. Not like cyber components which could likely be manufactured with a replicator. Also while cheap for now, they wont always be so freely available. They may also not be able to meet our processing demands in the future. Settling for brains is like settling for coal, ignoring the potential of nuclear power.

>That point being at least in this section that you are wrong and the BOS doesn't give a toss about "Technological atrocities...on any human" especially raiders.
The BOS acted because they considered synths a danger to all humanity. Even if the synths would only kill raiders, the BOS would intervene. They take ideological stances on things, so won't be willing to accept atrocity level things just because its done to raiders.
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>>1907627
because Modified FEV works best on prewar DNA.

imagine a rhinoceros that can bust through hexcrete like paper.
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>>1907861
Why not a tank of an equal size with a saturnite ram, as well as coaxial LAER weapons?
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>>1907874
one costs steel and other resources or power.

the other is just nutrients and protien.
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>>1907893
Yeah, but more effective, easier to replace, easier to control, and likely hardier as well
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>>1907852
>we could go get cool shit from living or dead american forces in China
You mean the people in the place across the ocean which we can't cross thanks to whatever shot down our satellite meaning we have to take a roundabout route which potentially drags us over other things that will shoot us down.

Not to mention the massive damage the US did along with whatever happened post-war.

>having disease cures and not distributing them to everyone can, on its own, be seen in a very negative light. we are moving in the right direction though.
Why in gods name would we ever give something like that to everyone? It's an advantage to our nation's citizens which seeing as we don't exactly have any limits on who we accept is an entirely fair way of distributing it.

Also, not giving out something being seen in a negative light is retarded. I've never heard anyone getting prissy at millionaires (outside of those whom get angry for a living) for not giving most of it to feed starving people or clothe the homeless or anything.

>slapping a prewar date on them is a terrible cover up. they are clearly post war individuals.
Now that I doubt. For one we have little knowledge of what a pre-war person looked like and I doubt we exactly sent them in dressed in the clothes they had. If nothing else because they'd get brain on them and that'd be a waste.

>plus, again, the Brains dont think anything that happened there was wrong AT ALL.
Yeah and they can be made to forget, assuming they actually still remember.

>Them: The president is an understanding man of SCIENCE!
Ah yes, the president. Clearly the 200 year old brains are talking specifically about us rather than the actual people who called themselves presidents pre-war. You know, since we are the EXECUTOR. Not president.

>is it likely? no not really. But if it did happen it would be a serious blow to our reputation.
Well seeing as he knows what we did, not really.

>yeah the Midwestern and old BoS did things differently of i recall correctly. but you are completely right thay the branch we are dealing with has researched medical.
Yep. So you accept this point fails to stand up to examination?

>the average NCR citizen knows very little about the shadier aspects of the NCR.
The destruction of tribal reserves, the relocation of tribal populations to camps and other such acts? They willingly toil under robotic supervisors which based off of our observations can inflict punishments of some sort? They might pretend this isn't happening but by god, they must be aware, insane, stupid or dead.
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>>1907900
>our people are on board with debraining. Any other faction in the wasteland would consider us monsters. or at best a serious threat to be destroyed.
So no change from the usual. Also I still don't entirely follow but fair enough if that is how you think they'd react.

>convincing Arcade to swallow his doubts and play ball is a far cry from convincing a society that its okay for people to be tortured to death in the scientifically most painful fashion possible while destroying the true essense of what makes them an individual. While they can access the video and see for themselves.
True. I would point out however that with our 10 charisma we can convince them it is fine. If we can't, then we can't convince them to accept mentally cured raiders in my opinion.

>all i am saying is its a liability. dont be surprised when it bites us in the ass.
Yeah and not releasing every single weapon on the NCR we can is a liability to our long term survival but I stopped worrying about that long ago. The archer method: deal with whatever is going to kill you soonest and most certainly; repeat until you aren't in danger of death within 96 hours.
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>>1907895
sure if you have the fissile material for it.

the FEV creature is intelligent,so control is a matter of handling.

its just an alternative to maximize our military production independent of fissile materials, steel, or replicators.

we can also use ModFEV to produce uplift races.

or experiment with FEV modified Alien DNA.
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>>1907900
not going to argue everything, because im tired of quibbling over trifles.

I would like to point out that the raiders were talking the entire time they werent screaming. anyone watching that footage will have a good idea whats going on.

also, imagine Exxon developed the cure for cancer tomorrow but decided not to tell anyone and only distributed it to Exxon employees. Would that be A) a correct and good thing to do, or B) A very negative thing likely to cause a gigantic scandal?
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>>1907858
>You raised the point zaxs were expensive. I was merely stating cybernetic processors would not increase costs too much, relatively. A 15 cm cube of silicon and metal shouldnt cost us much to produce.
My point was that a pre-war supercomputer, like the sort you seemingly want to produce, was, is and continues to be an insanely expensive thing which we can't afford to do without a shortcut. Making use of brains, for their high density processing power is the method we use.

>Could you quote the relevant passage? The only but on operating correctly is the part about how the criminals didn't work out for the most part.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Robobrain

Second paragraph of the programming section. Notable quotations can also reinforce the point raised by this paragraph.

>Would it be that much effort?
No, if we wanted to get some random fucks who know how to hold a gun we could probably do it much easier and without risking combat. Not to mention the fact that curing them doesn't mean they are going to suddenly love us since we did just fight / kidnap them and perform surgery without permission and they are still the same people just without any mental defects which might not even be related.

>And its not like its the raiders or our citizens, so its not like the resources would be used otherwise to save them.
See you say that but fact is we have limited resources. Especially in Montana. So seeing as this would be an intense surgery and would probably require some amount of rehab and shit, it would be a large resource drain.

Especially because we'd need to heal any wounds from capturing them, feed them, clothe them, house them and otherwise care for them. Potentially without ever getting anything back.

>Takes a bit of compassion, but is possible.
Bull.

>And we wouldn't just be dumping the rehabbed raiders willy-nilly in random communities. Work with one community to set up proof of concept, use the success of the program in one community to sell it to others.
You still need to convince that first community that your surgery is totally full proof which I've pointed out might not actually make them non-violent.

>Think about it like parole.
You mean parole the thing we give to people who commit minor crimes? Cause I don't remember mass murders being allowed back on the streets.

>Except we don't have the infrastructure to support excessive amounts of brain extractions.
Yet we have the resources to afford to rehabilitate dozens (at least) of raiders? When a brain needs a fifth of the food?

>Not like cyber components which could likely be manufactured with a replicator.
At extreme cost.
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>>1907926
>not going to argue everything, because im tired of quibbling over trifles.
Fair enough.

>I would like to point out that the raiders were talking the entire time they werent screaming. anyone watching that footage will have a good idea whats going on.
True but seeing as what they were saying was mostly begging for us to stop, stuff about the experiments / what was happening or completely insane, it doesn't matter except for PR.

>also, imagine Exxon developed the cure for cancer tomorrow but decided not to tell anyone and only distributed it to Exxon employees. Would that be A) a correct and good thing to do, or B) A very negative thing likely to cause a gigantic scandal?
Probably something that'd cause a massive scandal because they have no reason not to give it out. Seeing as they are a PRIVATE ENTERPRISE and don't have any reason to avoid making a profit. So their shareholders would be unhappy and their stocks would almost certainly plummet. The fact they tried to cover it up as well I suppose could be construed negatively seeing as it raises questions of their intent.

On the other hand, I feel you are making a very strange comparison.

Also the fact that you are trying to make this a question of "good / correct" and bad is a disgracefully bad mistreatment of this discussion.

>>1907973
>Also while cheap for now, they wont always be so freely available.
And? You understand the concept of putting the cart before the horse applies to you, who rather than exploiting a entirely available and technologically developed thing want to rush ahead to something brand-new that we've not even developed under the assumption that not only would it be better but that it would be more efficient, completely ignoring the inability of the current society to support it.

>They may also not be able to meet our processing demands in the future.
Yet your miracle processors will. Also we can just use more brains in concert.

>Settling for brains is like settling for coal, ignoring the potential of nuclear power.
Not an accurate comparison but whatever, I'd argue that if we are operating under your comparison then you'd be suggesting a move to nuclear power in 1870.
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>>1907973
>My point was that a pre-war supercomputer, like the sort you seemingly want to produce, was, is and continues to be an insanely expensive thing which we can't afford to do without a shortcut. Making use of brains, for their high density processing power is the method we use.
I'm saying the brain shortcut is not really a significant savings. They only need 1 brain. A similarly dense mass of processing core would be as I said, a 15 cm cube of silicon Lots of that in sands, and rocks.

>Second paragraph of the programming section. Notable quotations can also reinforce the point raised by this paragraph.
I don't see how the notable quotations prove your point. If anything, they prove that brains are an inefficient, wasting processing power on personality, unless they have regular maintenance of the brain, which seems like an liability if anything.

>No, if we wanted to get some random fucks who know how to hold a gun we could probably...
Depends on the raider. Some are legit crazy, probably thankful if we can make them not crazy, Others are just assholes, and there isn't any fixing them.

>See you say that but fact is we have limited resources. Especially in Montana. So seeing as this would be an intense surgery and would probably require some amount of rehab and shit, it would be a large resource drain
I'm not saying to jump into rehabing raiders immediately. First we set up some infrastructure and work out some positive relations with the locals, then we can work on making Montanna a better place.

>You still need to convince that first community that your surgery is totally full proof which I've pointed out might not actually make them non-violent.
A good enough relationship, a generous donation for their assistance, and some charisma should allow us to get our boot in the door. Assuming the procedure is fool proof, We just need a few successes to get the ball rolling.

>You mean parole the thing we give to people who commit minor crimes?...
Maybe in America, with your Prison Industrial Complex. Most of the Western World sees Prison as corrective, not wholely punitive. If we can make a raider not raid, then correction is complete.
Also Murder has parole in a bunch of countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Canada

>Yet we have the resources to afford to rehabilitate dozens (at least) of raiders? When a brain needs a fifth of the food?
Well not now, but instead of building infrastructure that is only good for mass brain extractions, we can build medical infrastructure that heals sick wastelanders, even raiders of their mental illnesses.

>At extreme cost.
No necessarily. If we get sizing comparable to a brain, it's 15 cm^3 of silcon, which is kinda everywhere if we're using replicators.
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>>1907995
>And? You understand the concept of putting the cart before the horse applies to you...
I'm not becoming reliant on a resource we won't possibly run out in the near future. There won['t always be criminals to debrain, and the sooner we make brains obsolete the sooner we can be self-sufficient.

>Yet your miracle processors will. Also we can just use more brains in concert.
Yes, I assume we would be able to make processors that outclass organic brains. I'm fairly certain we can develop methods better than calcium impulses and water. We can print things on the atomic level. We can make the best processors physically possible.

>Not an accurate comparison but whatever, I'd argue that if we are operating under your comparison then you'd be suggesting a move to nuclear power in 1870.
If we know it's possible, and we can do it, there is no reason to invest in the tech. Heavens know where we would be if fission was seen as an option in 1870.
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>>1908346
>We can print things on the atomic level.
Since when? Is this where you insist replicators can do something they can't again?
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>>1908372
Well the replicator can put together things atom by atom, including complex organic molecules that go into pharmaceuticals and food. So I don't see why it cannot lay the materials in a processor to exact specifications.
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>>1908402
So that's a "yes" then.
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>>1908419
Actually, as QM said, replicator do it precisely atom by atom. This is why we should go further into replicator tech because it allows us to add nanolevel structures to our materials (nanotubes and graphene being the least of it) with ease. Further, it is far faster than regular industry with none of the restrictions (if you want a different bot you have to adjust the assembly line, not so with replicators).

Basically, replicator are magic and we must invest more heavily in them asap.
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>>1908455
Where'd he say that again?
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>>1908455
Also, in the beginning we made a rat. We had to revive it, but it lived for a while. So the replicator should have the resolution to lay replicate DNA strands and organelles, and the bi-lipid layer between cells, which are all probably as difficult than laying molecules of silicon in a line several hundred thousand times.
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>>1908478
Because as I recall he said "Replicators are good for making small parts without requiring a whole machining line, but when they try to assemble things in total and precisely they end up being miscalibrated. Therefore it's more efficient to use replicators to produce small parts for assembly lines."
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>>1908484
Well, if you go by the fact we make microcircuit boards and biomolecules with them you should realize it must be atom by atom. The fact that we can make drugs on order tells you what level of accuracy we are talking about.
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>>1908484
Also, this is the kind of backwards logic that will have us miss out on all the advantages of replicators. The fact that they are fast as fuck and as precise as can be doesnt interest you? And it doesnt, at all, seem like another gate QM put before us so we cant have magitech from the get go?
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>>1908507
Oh, okay. So you can't find where OP said anything like that.

I was pretty sure that you couldn't, but just wanted to double check.
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>>1908513
It really doesn't. Seems like we have magitech replicators already to me.
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>>1908514
Remember how we used SM chips from the water tank to make medicines for our citizens way back when? Yeah. Thats molecules, in case you missed that. As to other instances, he has mentioned numerous times that replicator are faster than traditional industry. But in case you havent read up, go do that. You can find the archive on your own, I trust.

>>1908519
And this is EXACTLY the closed minded thinking that would have us lose the other ZAX and would have us be without replicator upgrades. QM has already said "it needs more upgrades" and you want to flop over because its "good enough"? I bet you want us to make textile mills because "it feels nice" as well.
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>>1908537
No, really I just want you to quit bitching. I'm fine with pursuing replicator upgrades with research, it just gets annoying when you constantly harangue the QM and other anons who disagree with you.

And there are other ways to make drugs that don't require assembling complex organic molecules atom-by-atom. For all we know it could've started out with simple molecules and just expedited a chemical pathway, or it produced precursors that were not so complex and our citizens did the final cooking. Don't act like your interpretation of the way these things work is the only way it could possibly work.
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>>1908537
The only "failing" of replicators is that takes more power to make something, and some fissile to get things going, but when we get the cold fusion up and running and work on the universal replicator we should be good to go on making whatever strikes our fancy.
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>>1908561
I am not even the anon you originally replied to, which means it is not my bitching but an actual concern other anons have.

As to chemistry, do you even?

Even IF we make just the base compounds for reactions (which is incredibly wasteful) you end up making molecules ATOM BY ATOM. Your whole point is moot man.

And if you support replicator research, what is your problem anyway?
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>>1908567
Last time I got the fission/steel requirement taken away. Now we only need to make the process of random matter to Fe/heavier more efficient. With that and the fusion generators we should have the key we need to really start competing on a national level.

And yeah, maybe national level is achievable when we are no longer pining for resources every turn. Think about that >>1908561
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>>1908569
You're acting as if there's not a sliding scale of "how complex can molecules get?" Which is a perfectly reasonable limitation for the QM to put on us. There's also the matter of simple molecules being very easy to form from elements and the correct pressure/temperature combinations, which I can see a replicator being easily able to achieve. Do YOU even chemistry?

I'll admit I didn't realize there were two people complaining about it, your IDs are very similar in color.
>>
>>1908561
Except we make drugs out of metal and fissiles. So the iron atoms are broken apart from each other, have protons removed until they are carbon and oxygen and hydrogen and nitrogen and what not, and then put together in the absolute correct layout and formations.

We could make thalidomide by the kilo and only make thalidomide R, no thalidomide S. Which should tell you how precise the replicators currently are.

Also, I am not the anon who argues with the QM a lot. I am just going of how we have already used the replicator.
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>>1908578
I was pretty sure that we got the fission/steel requirement taken away with either a boon or just regular research, not some anon's internet brilliance?

>>1908597
Again, it's not necessarily so. And when it's not necessarily so and the QM says "it doesn't work that way" it's on the player to figure out how it actually happened.
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>>1908594
As >>1908597 aready mentioned and as you clearly dont understand, chemistry is complex on all levels. You have it correct that simpler molecules need simpler conditions to manufacture but if you think that this equals less precision needed you are sorely mistaken. simply making a protein from RNA is dependant on so many different factor it is mind boggling and the fact that we have the option of sidestepping all of this is such and advantage you dont even. All the processes that IRL take days or even weeks to see through could be removed and the desired product produced in minutes. You dont understand how significant this is. Yes making a steel plate is nice but making electronic chips, that IRL need almost completely pure Si (which is a hassle in and of itself) and lots of time and machinery to make we can conjure out of thin air in mere moments. Not to mention drugs, nanoscale structures (this includes cancer cures, btw) and high-tech parts that would otherwise need complete industries onto themselves.

This is basically the win button if we use it to its fullest. And that is a fact.
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>>1908611
No It was some anon's brilliance. He went on for a couple of comments about nuclear theory, and the QM gave us a boon to make the replicators take any material. Just have to build the hardware.

It is pretty surely so. Pharmaceuticals are incredible complex. The wrong chirality can do terrible things. The fact we make lots of drugs and have suffered no issues means the replicators are precise.
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>>1908611
>I was pretty sure that we got the fission/steel requirement taken away with either a boon or just regular research, not some anon's internet brilliance?
Try again, I was the dude scouring the internet to convince the QM. That is why no need for materials.

>>1908611
>Again, it's not necessarily so.
Seeing how it works thus far, yes it is.
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>>1908639
>>1908648

I'll believe it when the QM confirms it then.
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>>1908611
>I was pretty sure that we got the fission/steel requirement taken away with either a boon or just regular research, not some anon's internet brilliance?
It was an anon's nuclear boon, or nuclear anon, that gave us that boon.

>Again, it's not necessarily so. And when it's not necessarily so and the QM says "it doesn't work that way" it's on the player to figure out how it actually happened.
So you're saying it could've actually been accomplished by Fallout Science?

>>1908639
Yeah. He managed to get his because he wasn't trying to force the QM to retroactively give us benefits compared to the complaining nuclear anon.
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>>1908639
>some anon's brilliance
Oh you flatterer.

>>1908639
>The wrong chirality can do terrible things. The fact we make lots of drugs and have suffered no issues means the replicators are precise.
Also absolutely correct. Read this on how bad it can be..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide#Birth_defects_crisis
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>>1908657
>complaining nuclear anon.
That is also me. Just a thing for science and the correct application of continuity.
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>>1908656
>I'll believe it when the QM confirms it then.
I remember somebody advising me to check the archive. Well how bout that?
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>>1908669
You're the complaining anon that the QM had to make a few posts some threads back about how he's less likely to give benefits if he feels like he's forced or pressured to rather than having it as commentary or an action suggestion?

>>1908656
>>1908677
It happened, it's the only boon we got because of meta research besides construction anon's.
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>>1908684
Yop, it bugs me he uses nuclear physics so loosely at times. I did give explenations and solutions but that didnt catch on as good.

He did the notes about rocket science though, if I remember correctly.
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>>1908677
No, I mean I'll believe replicators can print complex molceules in whole (and by extension, nanostructures and associated applications) when the QM confirms it. I don't even need to search the archive, I know he's been against it consistently.
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>>1908663
>Also absolutely correct. Read this on how bad it can be..
Which is why I brought up thalidomide specifically
>>1908597
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>>1908694
But ok, its 5 am here. Despite drunk I still have to sleep. Farewell and push for high-tech replicators and other shnizzle.
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>>1908694
>He did the notes about rocket science though, if I remember correctly.
Wasn't that the one where he considered giving vague quest quantities because of the backlash of our shit researchers? I don't remember what he gave the boon for.
>>1908696
Wasn't it explicitly stated that the replicator rearranges molecules and that's where the mass and energy costs comes from? Or are you referring to something else?

>>1908699
I can assure you we'll probably do something stupid.
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>>1908696
>http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/qstarchive.html?tags=Fallout%2C+Civ%2C+Courier%2C+New+Vegas%2C+Enclave%2C+America
Here is the QM confirming that we can scan and replicate anything, including a rat.

The rat lived, for a good while, so we are forced to assume it was able to replicate all the organelles and DNA and RNA and cells and organs, etc. That is high precision.
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>>1908721
Sure, but for one thing even QMs are allowed to make mistakes, and for another thing there's always the chance there's more to it than what we observed.

But again, I'm all for working towards better replicators. I just wouldn't be at all surprised if there were a cap on how good they can get and I think we should actually have to WORK for better replicators.
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>>1908772
We already have, we've improved the replicators' efficiency and before they couldn't print normal stuff.
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>>1903161
>CONSTRUCT
>Brain Vault
Work continues on the Brain Vault. A massive pile of dirt and rock being excavated piling a small mountain outside, to make room for all the poured hexcrete.

>robo-RESEARCH
>Advanced processor cores
Smarter, faster thinking robots!

Although TACT/Brain models are still superior in terms of ultimate processing power, the processing power of your robots in general has improved. Most can now readily support personality matrixes, for what that is worth.

In addition to general improvements of robotic processors, you have also unlocked High-Performance-CPU packets that you can install on specific robots.

These will make excellent upgrades to further your TACT bots, as an example.

The processing power of your standard bots has somewhat capped, but the CPU packets can continue to improve. Your scientists wonder if they could end up developing a computer so compactly powerful it rivals the human brain, but it would cost you a significant research investment.

>con't
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>>1908694
>it bugs me he uses nuclear physics so loosely at times
I sort of do that on purpose because its fallout, and in this particular case it allows logistics to be a lot more loose than something else for example such as glass making, steel making, or other that I tend to do more research on.

It feels that if you attempted to logically fit Fallout nuclear tech with the real variant, the whole system comes apart.
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>>1908859
QM, the construction action was swapped to building a big cold fusion generator >>1903164
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>>1908484
I believe that was before you made significant research strides both actively and passively in the replicator technology. Which was delayed in the first place long ago because you had a lack of working models to test on.

Come to think of it from what you've seen of Elijah's replicator technology it seemed like he had already reached a very advanced useage of the stuff in only a year while you were still trying to get started, probably because he had so many available as well as an abundance of Sierra Madre Chips and gold. If he has continued such a stride. . .but then he doesn't have BigMT or ZAX's. So you wonder who has the more advanced technology right now.
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>>1908875
>>1903164
Hmmm. Okay, calculating. . .
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>>1908896
Don't. Fuck that, we need the brain vault. Worse case I'll vote for the brain vault.
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>>1908911
It will take a while, and we don't have the power for it. any6ways. Once we finish it It will be sitting around until we get something up and running
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>>1908917
And? It'll take awhile anyway to get brains to put in there. Cemete takes awhile to harden, even moreso when poured like this.
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>>1903164
>Jacob Miles
"You want an underground Fusion Reactor too? That's a lot of digging. . .I'll need about a month at my drawing board with the ZAX.

It should be feasible, we'll need to expand our operations beneath BigMT considerably, place some Hexcrete supports. Honestly this stuff is amazing, we wouldn't be able to even make the Brain Vault without it. It's ability to stack hexagonal pillars like no one's business would have made even old world contractors drool at the mouth for it."

Jacob Miles is enthused about the project, citing that we needed extra power for the Brain Vault anyway.
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>>1903161
>>Military.
>Fortify our Montana outpost with robots and turrets.
Most of your securitron based robots are too big to fit into the portal currently, mainly only humanoid sized things fit such as Assaultron. The new passively produced variants are sent to the front, while basic Robco Laser Turrets are also constructed.
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>>1908973
Aren't they modular? As in take them apart, and rebuild them on the other side using the Assaultrons?
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>>1908978
The primary difficulty in that is that while the Securitron itself is modular, its armored superstructure is casted rather than assembled (for extra strength). So you'd have to weld and unweld it.

Though an easy to build Securitron out of boxed parts could be researched.

A more practical solution would be to start shipping replicators to the otherside, then spend Fissile material to build robots on the other end.
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>>1909003
Huh, I wasn't aware we wielded the superstructure of it as well. You firgure that would fit alone and then you could attach the rest on the other side.

Wouldn't a more practical solution be to make a bigger porter? Its our main means of going from one place to another after all.
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>>1909003
Or we can build a freight portal. Can we just do that or is that research that needs to be done?
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>>1909006
>Wouldn't a more practical solution be to make a bigger porter?
That's easier said than done. You'll need research for that.
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>>1903161
>>ZAX RESEARCH
>MLA hovercraft blueprint.
The ZAX is quite surprised by the sophistication of the MLA designs.

>ZAX(RND)
"Raiders designed this?"

>ZAX(RIG'D)
"Not bad. Not bad at all. A generalized model that can rely on scavenged parts. It's what I would have done in their boots. I guess the MLA already has most of the components listed on the design anyway."

>ZAX(CEO)
"Indeed. They didn't ask us to build the whole thing for them. Much of the theoretical framework and engineering concepts have already been carried out, all that's left for us is to fine tune the designs with our superior calculation."

The MLA hovercraft blueprints show a clear sign of intelligence you'd only imagine out of someone like the NCR or the Brotherhood, and is not at all what you expected from, by all means, a glorified raider nation. Mainly the parts you provide are some advanced navigational computer chips and aircraft calculation nodules, which you ship as per your agreement. The MLA say they'll handle the rest.

The design is very modular, and should be able to handle almost any conceivable weapons loadout.

>Niner
"Ah yeah mate! That is EXACTLY what we needed. Wait till the NCR get a load of this!"
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>>1909300
Ask where the fuck they designed this thing, cause its more advanced then what you would count for abunch of so called 'raider '
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>>1909307
>Niner
"Can't tell ya where six, actually I'm not very sure. . .but I bet it was probably the Dark Reavers. Ever seen one of them? More machine than man. Can't even tell if they aren't just all robots. But they're some real wiz' at technology."
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>>1909357
Hats off to them then Niner, This was some advance tech you got from them.
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>>1909357
Well good for them I guess. Behemoth pls.
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>>1908864
I understand the problem of fitting Fallout and IRL science. What bugs me is that some elements seem to be different for our enemies (mainly NCR with the ludicrous industrialization speed and Elijah with his vault metal walls).

>>1908893
Exacty my point. Elijah magics shit up from the air and NCR magics air into factories. We cant do any of that and Elijah only has himself and the NCR is large, loose and not industrialized enough for this shit. The Autobahn project alone took years with hundreds of thousands working on it.
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>>1909585

listen, can you just drop the quest and go? Just fucking go.
Your constant whining is aggravating.

QM doesn't owe you anything. The only thing you an do is to have any impact is just leave.
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>>1909603
And, as I have stated numerous times, I dont presume he owes me anything. What I want is clarification. And unlike you, it seems, I actually care about our tech progress. And you should too. And, in fact, you can have an impact on it.

>just leave

But I wont actually throw a hissy fit if you stay here.
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>>1909617
then stop fucking whining
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>>1909624
Likewise to you. I will continue proposing plans and explaining why they work/are good for us. You can continue being salty.
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>>1909585
you act like the NCR built up from nothing. Prior to the Reich, the NCR had industry, and factories, and oldworld ruined factories they could salvage or repair. the mobilization would be better compared to American mobilization after pearl harbour, which took only a couple years.
You also forget a lot of the NCR general equipment is salvage. The ghost battalion is likely a bunch of refurbished laser tanks, their airforce is refurbished from the plane graveyard, etc.

Elijjah magics shit up because he's smart, with access to a hundred replicators. He also had a year head start, and did not need to worry about any developments other than his war effort. It's easy to build a big army when 100% of your resources go to arming and fortifying and developing new weapons.
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>>1909644
The Autobahn, which is a good example of national scale projects, took 400 000 workers (in both construction and supply) to make 108 km of road. Admittedly, it was fancy road but considering the industrial developement of Germany at the time a mammoth undertaking with progress not being phenominal.

Now take the NCR, who has a population of 2-5 million total (compared to Deutschlands around 75 million) and they did comparatively multiple autobahns worth of work every year for 5 years straight? It doesnt actually make sense if you look at the numbers. Especially if you consider the mostly rural state of the NCR prior to magic Hitler taking command.

As to Elijah, I dont see how multiple machines gives you an advantage in designing concepts so radically different. Yes he has lots of machines to ruin for tries but it doesnt really work like that. If he could deduce the process from the simple machines just by tinkering, we should be able to do it in less than a year as well. Especially since we have a ZAX, the Think Tank and numerous brains to use.

My point is the "AI" cheats while we are handicapped.
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>>1909660
I have to correct a bit. The 400 000 were working in 1936, when 1086 km of road was lain. This ranges from double to quadrouple line roads.
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>>1909636

I'm tired of your constant insistent whining about the same fucking thing over and fucking over again for months to no end.

You can keep your shitty plans and proposals to yourself.
>and explaining why they work/are good for us
who gives a fuck what you think, you can write essays why you thing YOUR AMAZING PROPOSAL is so great but if OP says 'no' then its no.

>>1909660
If you feel that the AI cheats then fucking close the game and go play one where it doesn't.
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>>1909706
So are you the anon who was pushing so hard for low tech industry? Or are you some other butthurt newfag who cant deal with people having different points of view?
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>>1903161
>>BIOLOGICAL RESEARCH
>Study the BoS augments and devise ways of improving them
The BoS Augments are rather contrary to BigMT's.

Where as BigMT's efforts to contribute to America's spy agency and biological research resulted in implants that improve the human condition, strengthening muslces via mutation and hormone and nervous control, the Reaver augments seek to replace the human condition. Why strengthen flesh when steel will always be stronger. Take off the arms and legs, and give hydraulic limbs with the strength to rend cars in two. Replace the internal organs with machine proxys. Armor the body in an exoskeleton shell. Connect cybernetic tendrils and tools to the spine to act as extra arms.

It is the antithesis of the Super Mutant and the FEV in a way. Not by flesh should humanity improve, but by steel and alluminium. A sensible

Their implants are incredibly obvious and almost impossible to hide, and some would say quite hideous looking, and comes with some obvious drawbacks of not being able to feel skin or eat real food for example. Evidently the Reavers are so devoted to their ideals, they consider these tradeoffs as fundamental to "going beyond human weakness"

>Advanced Cyborg Technology Unlocked

From analyzing the memories of these (which is surprisingly difficult even for your amazing neurological prowess) the ultimate goal of the Reavers is to become the "Perfect symbiosis of Human and Machine".

Rather than simply becoming a machine, like a robo brain, Reavers wish to become machines that model human kind. A "synth".

You've only ever heard of Synths a few times. BigMT references them somewhat with disdain, but Klein deleted any archives of them. The NCR accused Unity of being one, but never elaborated on what a Synth is. According to the Reavers brains, Synths are robots that for all intents and purposes act and look like a human.

You suppose ARES would have counted as one.
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>>1909740
No, I'm neither of those.

>newfag
>butthurt

The only one who's butthurt is you, because you can't fucking deal with the way OP wants to run his quest.


Nobody wants to listen to your endless bitching about NCR, Elijah and whatever else slight you have perceived from QM and other people.
Just fucking deal with it or fuck off. I'm tired hearing the same complaints over and fucking over again.
>>
>>1909773
*a sensible choice for the mutant loathing BoS dogma.

>>1903161
>- Deliver MLA hovercraft blueprint
You deliver the MLA hovercraft blueprints as well as the requested components.

They deliver you a Behemoth.

+1 Midwestern Behemoth!

And 250 slaves of various types.

>Integrate the new slaves we bought
>Ensure that they have houses
While one Engineering Division continues to dig for the Vault and Fusion Reactor, the other Engineering Division begins expanding New Washington Massively. Nearly doubling it in size over the month thanks to quick drying and curing Hexcrete and available resources.

As for the Slave Integration. . .

There's a wide diversity in reactions, just as there is a wide diversity in the slaves themselves. Many react relatively positively, some bursting into tears and thankful and swearing to be loyal Americans forever. These are immediately befriended by some of those who were former Legion slaves.

Many are incredibly traumatized, too much in shock to be emotional, and only due to the stalwart watch of James Bond do you prevent some immediate suicides. Its a messy scene and quite disheartening seeing how much some of the adults and children wish to die. Others are distraught that they were unfortunate not to have their children or loved ones with them at the time, to have spared them from being sold off to pleasure trainers or the cult, so as to not have been retained with them while you were buying up families. Some clearly lied about being families, in the hopes of being bought together.

Many are sick with various STD's, plagued with Drug Addiction, and others are the infirm slaves you bought, saved from a wide variety of tales of horror such as being fed to beasts, used as experimental specimens, or thrown into torture pits for amusement. Your expert medical team is requesting more Auto-Docs as they try to deal with the situation en masse.

These issues will need to be resolved, and likely more will crop up over time.

Meanwhile, you investigate certain other slave groups.

>con't
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>>1909786
A number of slaves you bought, as requested, are former NCR personell, mostly fresh ones from the front. About 35 of them to be precise.

Many are courteous, or at least polite. Many more refuse to say anything other than their name, rank, and serial number. A few of them are part of the incredibly traumatized, mutilated or mutated group.

Some point out that you have a treaty with the NCR, and are hoping to be repatriated back to California as soon as possible.

You consider what to do with them.
>Release them to California
>Detain them. (give a reason?)
>Extract their Brains and interrogate them for information
>Other?
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>>1909789
>Extract their Brains and interrogate them for information
The NCR need not know. If we can do it without killing them/them knowing about it (maybe a "medical" scan).

>>1909782
Yet you harp on and on about your problems. Cool your pants jack.
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>>1909796
If we can....

then that would be nice. We could milk them for all the info and then sell them to NCR for a profit (talking tech and blueprints, maybe have a look at the federation shuttle engines (secretly scan them) or visit the ZAX (and scan him as well/plant SPI trojan).
>>
>>1909786

Can we use our incredible neurological prowess to heal psychological traumas?

>>1909789
>Extract their Brains and interrogate them for information
Just make it quick and inconspicuous.

Will we be able to change their memories of interrogation later on?
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>>1909800
>Can we use our incredible neurological prowess to heal psychological traumas?
You can use a hero action on it, your doctors are also working on it.

>>1909800
You've never tried memory alteration on a mass scale before, so this would be the first time.
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>>1909805
Alter memories, try a few sleeper units as well, see how that works out (starts acting like a monkey when a codephrase is spoken, see how it goes and if it seems ok, try having NCR people gather intel for us when we sell them back). We can alter memories for longer than a turn as well.

Also, how many of the 250 slaves are heavily traumatized?
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>>1909806
yeah, lets try this

Unless we need to do deeper research into this. Maybe spend research and ZAX (SPI) action to improve the success rate as much as possible.
We can always put them into cold storage before brainwashing them.
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>>1909809
Good point about SPI, see if we can make small implants to help keep an eye on their progress and link up with SPI, maybe do wetwork on them as well? The only problem would be NCR health checks.

In any case, incorporate SPI and Bond to develop protocols to ensure a high chance of success. The tasks need not be complicated at first. Merely make contact once a month and give an overview of how many people live near them and what they do. Nothing extraordinary at first. Also less chance it blows up in our face.
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>>1908973
Can Loader bots fit in the teleporter?
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>>1909300
How big is that hovercraft?
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>>1909809
>>1909810
Well whatever we do to alter them make sure that we also alter their memory so they say they escaped the MLA and ended up saved by us while they were walking the Desert instead of having been bought.
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>>1909823
We could say we bought them to release them, would be noble and all. That depends on what the NCR thinks our relationship with the MLA is though, so you may have a point. Their memory will be altered regardless.
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>>1909789
>release them

if some of then can be made into sleeper agents or manchurian candidates so mich the better. If not we buy some goodwill from the NCR.

The traumatized and mutilated NCR personell should remain in our care until their wounds are healed, either with cloned replacement limbs or brain link prosthesis.

afterwards they can choose where they want to live.
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>>1909826
Would mean admitting to trading stuff with the NCR. Which isnt good optics.

>>1909789
>Extract their Brains and interrogate them for information
Just kill em and take their head meat and memories.
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>>1908329
>I'm saying the brain shortcut is not really a significant savings. They only need 1 brain. A similarly dense mass of processing core would be as I said, a 15 cm cube of silicon Lots of that in sands, and rocks.
Except what you are talking about would be insanely expensive. Thanks to the high quality of the component you are attempting to produce meaning it has to be replicated very carefully.

>I don't see how the notable quotations prove your point.
My point was that it wasn't insanity that causes the robots to behave as they do but rather their programming. Which the quotes section reinforces greatly.

>If anything, they prove that brains are an inefficient, wasting processing power on personality, unless they have regular maintenance of the brain, which seems like an liability if anything.
And I think that what you are suggesting is a massive liability: limiting our ability to advance our military, economic and other such capabilities medium and short term. Also, these brains have been active for 200 years without maintenance. Similar, electronic systems, also developed personalities during such a period. Not to mention we have no idea what regular maintenance means in this context and I fail to see why it would prove to be a problem.

>Depends on the raider. Some are legit crazy, probably thankful if we can make them not crazy, Others are just assholes, and there isn't any fixing them.
No, I don't think killing their friends, capturing them and performing surgery on them is going to be made up for in whatever mind is the result by the fact they are now "sane". They'll still hate us.

>I'm not saying to jump into rehabing raiders immediately. First we set up some infrastructure and work out some positive relations with the locals, then we can work on making Montanna a better place.
I can make Montana a better place with those raiders immediately by using them to augment our abilities in the region. You want to waste a similar amount of effort for far less gain and far more risk at a greater cost.

>A good enough relationship, a generous donation for their assistance, and some charisma should allow us to get our boot in the door.
Oh aye because that'd totally convince them to let us put an ex-mass murder, rapist, drug using, drug dealing, arsonist, cannibal, sadist or any combination of those traits across the road.

>Assuming the procedure is fool proof, We just need a few successes to get the ball rolling.
And as I have said, REPEATEDLY, making them sane doesn't mean they'd stop killing or hating us or anything. If anything, it might just make them more effective since they'll think more rationally about how to fight, kill and raid.

>Maybe in America, with your Prison Industrial Complex. Most of the Western World sees Prison as corrective, not wholly punitive.
I am from the UK. I know the intent of prison. That has nothing to do with parole in this context. Please stay focused on the matter at hand rather than changing tact.
>>
Oh god dammit what's the argument about this time?
>>
>>1908329
>If we can make a raider not raid, then correction is complete.
And if we can make a source of infinite power, we've broken reality. Both these statements are true but the question is are they possible or even realistic.

>Also Murder has parole in a bunch of countries
Yeah but considering what raiders have done, under the laws of the UK, they'd be under a Whole life order and thus must spend their entire life in prison. These are given for abducting and murdering a child or killing for a “political, religious, racial or ideological cause” which most raiders will certainly have done.

Not to mention the fact that in the case of Canada, a nation you raise as a point / example, a criminal can only apply for parole after 25 years if accused of a single count of first degree murder. Any additional accounts can result in it being extended beyond their actual life span. In the case of raider, someone who has killed indiscriminately, robbed and otherwise acted in a criminal manner? They'd be in there for years just on the deaths. Let alone their secondary charges.

>Well not now, but instead of building infrastructure that is only good for mass brain extractions, we can build medical infrastructure that heals sick wastelanders, even raiders of their mental illnesses.
Wonderful, why not give them a bottle of nuka-cola and a good handjob while you are at it? Also, the infrastructure to heal and to perform brain extraction is literally the same since a Auto-doc is able to do both and you want to create entirely automated outposts which can heal so you'd need these. If you mean the shit to support brains after extraction, I'd point out we want that in the region either way so it's probably best to get started.

>No necessarily. If we get sizing comparable to a brain, it's 15 cm^3 of silicon, which is kinda everywhere if we're using replicators.
Yeah except a ZAX, literally the most powerful conventional pre-war computer (ours are the only model which uses a brain as standard since we can't produce the quality of chips needed otherwise in any terms approaching cost-effectively) are the size of a room! You are talking about getting an insane increase in space efficiency as if it is a simple trick we've yet to try.

>I'm not becoming reliant on a resource we won't possibly run out in the near future. There won't always be criminals to debrain, and the sooner we make brains obsolete the sooner we can be self-sufficient.
Don't always need criminals. We've got the Legion, the MLA and I'd point out that we are going to be entirely self-sufficient for brains for a long time thanks to Montana. Even ignoring that we can use non-human brains and I don't exactly see why you want to shift to something like this.
>>
>>1908329
>Yes, I assume we would be able to make processors that outclass organic brains. I'm fairly certain we can develop methods better than calcium impulses and water. We can print things on the atomic level. We can make the best processors physically possible.
Yeah but Fallout disagrees with you. I mean, it might be possible in the same way as we might be able to research FTL without any alien tech but it's such a long term thing that it won't help us anytime soon.

>If we know it's possible, and we can do it, there is no reason to invest in the tech. Heavens know where we would be if fission was seen as an option in 1870.
And in this instant, I realised you completely missed the point of that section. I was saying we don't have any reason to shift to what you suggest since not only will it take years (at least) to develop but it might not even work plus it's a waste of valuable resources in terms of replication capacity and either fissile or power seeing as I can accomplish the same with a brain.


Now if you will excuse me I must go for a meal.
>>
>>1909826
>>1909852

that might not be a good idea

NCR will know that we bought a large amount of slaves. I am sure that NCR has their own intelligence on MLA and their agents among them so it will not be hard for them to figure out that we sold a large shipment of weapons.

... Fuck, I just realized that they might have learned it one way or another. I hope that when the slavers were gathering slaves for us, no information leaked.


What we could do, is the same option we got when dealing with the Reavers. We can modify their memories a bit and make them believe that they were our agents all along. That way they will divulge the information freely and they will stay as our citizines.
>>
>>1909789
>extract their brains and interrogate them for information. One done make the brains forget. Put'em back in the body and shipp'em out to the NCR eith a clean bill of health
>>
>>1909942
how the hell do you propose to hide the Debraining scars?
>>
>>1909948
we can regrow limbs
I'm sure that scars are no problem
>>
>>1909952
we need to develop a less invasive memory scanning devise
>>
>>1909948
MLA
>>
>>1909982
dude the MLA doesnt cut peoples heads open and leave them alive. If your going to try being sneaky you need a better story than that.

Especially since the NCR having a few spies in the MLA is likely
>>
>>1909942
Too risky. Dead men tell no tales. Once we have what we want, just dispose of them. Its not like the NCR really cares about individual soldiers anyways.
>>
Back. Can I get a tally of the votes so far?

I'm writing up the rest of the update
>>
>>1910144
4 for extract the brains

1 for release it seems.
>>
>>1910127
can we please stop killing innocent randos? first its raiders for research, now its NCR officers for intel. (which will be obsolete by now, and superceded by SPIs efforts)

do you people not understand the slippery slope concept?
>>
>>1910252
i mean, they were bought with over 200 other people, its not like we can pretend they dont exist. everyone will figure out we killed them.
>>
>>1910252
sorry mang, we can't just release them. They will tell NCR about our trade with MLA

>>1910261
We can try to brainwash them and make them want to stay in PCA
>>
>>1910267
We spent hard earned caps purchasing NCR POWs so we could return then to their homeland. nothing to say otherwise.

If the NCR wants us to do something about the slavers they should offer us a deal.

that... is really unethical. but it might work. We could just try y'know talking to them. let them know their families are welcome to stay here as well and shit.
>>
I'm writing up the current vote as is unless the majority changes consensus.

----

Meanwhile, on your literal to do list.

-Dandan [X]
-Wendy [X]
-Veronica [X]
-Sonia [X]
-Vanessa [ ]
-Unity [ ]
-Diana? [ ]

Any votes or shall we roll?
>>
>>1910278
So we bought them just to give them to the NCR? Its not like the NCR cares about rabdom soldiers.
I was against buying NCR in the first place, but I dont see any other option that makes us look bad infront of the NCR.
>>
>>1910291
Roll for it.
>>
>>1910278
NCR will notice the sudden large influx of new and better weapons that MLA uses. Combine that with our recent purchase and their own intelligence efforts in MLA, I don't think it will be hard for them to figure out we sold arms to them.

I don't mind having a long term project to convince them to change their loyalties using plethora of non-violent psychological methods. It's less efficient than just rewiring their neural pathways though.
>>1910291
roll, like before. Put Diana into the pool.
>>
>>1910291
Roll and put the AI in the pool.
>>
Rolled 2 (1d3)

>>1910291
>>
>>1910300
>NCR will notice the sudden large influx of new and better weapons that MLA uses.
But they aren't new or better if i recall correctly.
>>
>>1910300
NCR will notice the sudden large influx of new and better weapons that MLA uses

But thats wrong. We only optimized shit, they've been getting progressively better on there own.
>>
>>1910324
>>1910332

Yeap, the whole point. Theyre just more efficient, but not "new" in the sense of "shiny and brand new out of factory line". They're scrubby pieces of work that are rusted and for intents and purposes, are something that MLA would have produced themselves.
>>
>>1910324
>>1910332

yeah, you're right. We made them look like they are not new

anyway, the only reason we got them was to read their memories, if we can somehow erase that procedure from their memories, I don't mind handling them over to NCR. Though I would prefer we turn them into our citizens.
>>
>>1910346
I don't mind handing them over to the NCR either as long as we erase the memory of us having bought them from the MLA, replace it with a memory of having broken/sneaked away from the slavers into our lands where we found them.
>>
>>1910357
that works too

but don't accidentally put memories of them sneaking through underground tunnels which stretch all the way to the divide
>>
>>1910357
>>1910373
Or we just mind wipe them once we pump there brains, that we did it. Give them a neat patch job and send them off.
>>
>>1910357
Eh. Fine. As long as our brain surgery leaves no signs.
>>
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You have your robots take the 30 NCR soldiers down. Its easier to avoid notifying the rest of your researchers who are busy tending to the new slaves (on your orders).

The ambush is quick and relatively bloodless, in between the knockout gas, the tranq darts, and the tasers the unarmed men and women don't stand a chance. And you place them in Cryostasis pods in a hidden part of BigMT, a "restricted zone" you keep only to yourself. You strongly consider killing them all, and if anyone asks questions, tell them you privately delivered them to the NCR. Many of your followers are so used to you doing this sort of thing and have since given up questioning, the ones who don't you think you can get away with convincing. But you had best not reveal this to anyone.

Making scars dissapear is very difficult, notwithstanding you have to cut away their hair to access their brains to implant the memory interface probes. As with all memory viewing, what is required is that an individual enters an adjacent VR pod hooked up to the memory machines, with the subject in the other pod. The ZAX will handle operations in real time.

You have a choice of:
>lietenant
>tank pilot
>medic
>soldier
>pick someone at random
>>
>>1910430

well, obviously we want to go with all of them but lets start with the lieutenant
>>
>>1910430
>>lietenant
I imagine the NCR is very dedicated to "need to know"
>>
>>1910430
>lietenant

just down the list
>>
Rolled 8 (1d100)

>>1910439
>>1910442
>>1910451
Writing
>>
>>1910456
Nyeeh
>>
Rolled 91 (1d100)

>>1910456
OH NO
>>
Originally, I was against tampering with people's minds.

But I can see the votes aren't there for us to stop this obviously bad karmic decision.

That being the case, keeping them around is political suicide waiting to happen.

Best to take the NCR personnel and the Paladins and rewrite them to be loyal.

Then equip them and send them into the Montana frontier to fix the base and scout the state.

That way they can be useful and out of sight.
>>
>>1910544
Nah. Kill the reavers after copying their intel, these ncr guys we can just clean up our misdoings and return them home.
>>
>>1910544
I mean, uts not an all or nothing thing. There is a difference between copying memories and complete brainwashing.
>>
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>>1910430
His name is Albert Lopez, a soldier from Baja. His home town was liberated by the Rangers, and he served in the NCR for many years as a soldier.

Memory harvesting is not an exact science, besides it would be pointless to live out someone's entire life (you'd probably forget most of it anyway) but the most important details you skim through. He was not deployed to the Mojave, but to patrol duty in South California, fighting off the various raiders from the south.

He remembers the inefficiency of the old Regime, how there was a shortage of everything: ammunition, clothing, weapons, manpower. The NCR spread thin. There were enough people to man it, perhaps, but more and more were being deployed to the Mojave. The corruption and greed, and every vice that plagued the NCR you remember growing up in.

Then news of the Loss of the Mojave, and the march of the Legion. Doomsayers and panic filled the streets, people didn't know where to flee, raiders got plucky. . .until Yaunker came along, and brought back the troops from the Frontier. General Blackthorne and him, they restored order. The food and water began to flow. The trains ran on time again. And more. They routed out corruption, in Congress and the Corporations, ending the war with the Brotherhood, integrating the Shi peacefully bringing them under government rule. The President was a Genius, personally credited for some of the miracles of science whether it was new plants which could remove radiation, planting whole forests of them to clean up rivers. Or miracle factories that turned the great northern forests into gasoline, for tanks and weapons found in the frontier.

And for the first time. . .you get to view some of their warfare in action.

>con't
>>
>>1910573
>>1910559
Considering the impact the OS team had around the Nursery, they could be extremely useful.

Like repair the GECK factory useful.

Like repair the Main Generators in the Montana Outpost useful.

We might not even need to alter their memory if we can just talk to them in a one on one setting.

Being debrained and then installed into a completely cybernetic body could be seen as the holy grail of their faith.

And we can do that. We can give them that. They might defect with that alone.
>>
>>1910656
we kinda already had a vote on that and people chose to leave them frozen for foreseeable future
>>
>>1910656
I would support that
>>
>>1910676
>>1910699
we will eventually move folks into the nursery.

at that point it becomes Kill, Subvert, Brain warp, or release.

and release isnt an option when they have wireless email communication.

other options are to alter their engram recordings and clone them. but the only reason to do that would be we wanted several sets of them.
>>
>>1910713
well, if it works, I'm for it. They are a useful bunch.

Iirc, we had option to alter their memories to think they were exiled from their order and branded heretics so they joined us or that we are on a super deep undercover special operations or anything else we can come up with.

Maybe with further research into neuro research we can just simply swap people's loyalties
>>
>>1910656
They werent exactly invaluable. Alot of their tasks could be taken over by robots.
I say copy their memories, then kill them. Would rather kill people than fuck with their minds.
>>
>>1910582
The date is about a year ago, the place: somewhere 50 miles from the Capital. They were some 300,000 strong facing off against a force of 600,000 legionaries. And that was just their section of the front.

Four years. That's how long the President asked for. And for Four Years they held the line. That line that fell back and back, every month another mile, or a few yards. "Space for time," "scorch the earth" they called it.

They burnt the towns, they salted the fields, sowed poison into the water wells. All the while they dug. Miles and miles of trenches. They planted barbed wire like corn. Sowed mines into the earth.

The weapons changed too. New guns which held more bullets and fired more, or could penetrate even the thickest Legion armor. Older guns which could be built cheaply, cooled by cylinders of water, firing leather belts, planted behind pillbox after pillbox. Simple metal tubes, "mortars" they called them, which fired grenades that could launch from a distance. The fruit of the Gun Runners having been nationalized or fled their factories. They had more ammunition now, medical supplies, tents with doctors supervised by a hologram. Unlike the Mojave, the President did not abandon them but kept them supplied, reinforced. But they had other reasons to fight, they were fighting for their home, for their families, if they ran away, all they would do is lead the Legion to their doorstep.

They were not the only ones to use new weapons, the Legion responded in turn, arming up. Nobody knew how or where they got the weapons, even if the Gun Runners had joined their side. And there were so many Legion soldiers, pouring in, outnumbering them. Week after week they'd beat their drums, then their shout would shake the air and they'd charge. They held the line, sometimes they drove them back. Other times the Legion drove them back, and they'd retreat to another trench already dug. "Space for Time" The President and his special forces were preparing something, nobody knew what it was, everyone wished whatever it is it would be here. But it wasn't. Just them, the trenches and wire, and the Legion.

Today is Founding Day. 100 years ago the NCR was created, and only 3 years later its five states voted to join it. Night was coming, the Legion liked to attack at night. And the drums sounded.

And then night, turned into day.

>con't
>>
>>1910726
As was argued last time this was vrought up, the noment we atart fuxking with other peoples thoughts we lose the trust of everyone else. Don't epect loyalty from people if they auspect it wasnt earned, that we forced them to being loyal. Loyalty programming is a great way to swan dive off the cliff into civil war.
>>
>>1910746
>>1910736
I am not suggesting we alter their minds. I am suggesting that we unfreeze them one by one inside a faraday cage prevent transmission of emails or radio and talk to them about their options
>>
>>1910773
We can try that. As long as we dont atart reprogramming people.
>>
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>>1910740
The first minutes of the bombardment knocked the wind out of every soldier's lungs. Their eyes blinded by light and deafened by sound. Such a huge explosion. George had seen fireworks on NCR day and thought that was intense but this. . .this was like someone had cut pieces of the sun to send down to the earth.

In between the explosions, one could almost hear the scream of something huge sailing through the sky. The bombardment must have lasted an hour at least. Then silence for 30 minutes, while everyone tried to talk through ringing ears and seeing flashes.

And then the sky was buzzing like some massive bee hive. A constant, unending low thrum that was heard all around. And in the distance, they saw the flashes and heard the explosion, not like before with massive bursts but hundreds of tiny ones, spread out, falling like rain.

And then the tanks arrived, all at once, lined up behind the trenches. He had seen vehicles before, trucks or the new cars, but nothing like this. They were like big metal lunchboxes, on bulldozer treads, sprouting a huge gun from the turret and machine guns on its front and top. The engines were roaring, the bombs were falling; the NCR was showing its war drums, and its war chants. Word was being spread down the line "wait for the signal, then over the top!"
>>
>>1911035
When the signal was heard, the rest became an adrenaline filled blur for the lietenant. He saw how the Tanks fought, metal monsters immune to the thickest gunfire and grenades, able to run over trenches and wire and knock down walls, and trees and crush men beneaht their treads. He remembered a sound of screaming rockets through the sky, like those of your securitrons, only bigger and deadlier unleashing a fiery payload that made the ground aflame. . .they could not pass through it, only go around it as anything inside was turned to a burning corpse. "Screaming Katies" they called them, simple trucks with rocket launchers strapped on the back but so very deadly.

Not only did machines lead them, but men too. . .the Storm Troopers wearing fancy armor or the Vault Troopers built like Grognak the Barbarian. They could run faster, take bullets better, like human Super mutants. They brought with them more of the new technologies the president delivered: purple goop that could be made into any food, trucks carrying machines that could "print" out ammunition and spare weapons parts from green glowing fruit of the Shi vine, the hologram doctor who had saved lives over and over and over again.

Yaunker had made a promise and kept it, just like every other promise he made. He didn't abandon his men, but cared for them. The space they had traded for time, retaken as they advanced despite Legion numbers. No longer were they retreat.

Now they could advance.

That was what he remembered of Founding Day.
>>
>>1911035
>>1910740
>>1911103

Yeah, I was sort of assuming slightly smaller population numbers. But this? 80 million would be a conservative estimate of NCR population.

And that tech...

Yaunker is dangerous as fuck.
>>
>>1911116
Well estimates range from 1 million to 5 million as a very liberal estimate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/falloutlore/comments/51i7pp/what_would_the_population_size_of_the_ncr_be_by/

Assuming 20% military participation and 5% created clone troops, that is 1.25 million soldiers. So realistically, each front should have the 300000-400000 people.

Numbers are a bit high
>>
>>1911174
dude, that was 300k for their SECTION of the front. and that was probably some time ago.

our robots are outnumbered 15 times over by just the front line grunts.

And when/if the MLA push fails... things could actively get much worse.
>>
>>1911197
Yeah. Im saying QMs numbers are fairly implosible. 300000 for the entire front would be reasonable. 300000 for this small section, and everywhere else has significantly lower is also reasonable.

300000 in this section and every other comparable section is implossible with even a high birth rate.
>>
>>1911116
According to census statistics read by George, the NCR has approximately 7 million people though this number could be higher due to difficulties in getting a proper census. This compared to the population of 700,000+ in 2241 represents a tendfold increase in the past 45 years, though primarily through integration of more and more territory rather than specific population growth, including the recent additions of the Shi as well as a mass refugee flow from the march of the Legion around them. The NCR of today is much larger than it was in 2241, and more diverse, but this has not stopped its unity against the impending threat of the Legion and the secondary enemy of the MLA.

It is estimated that 22% of the population has been mobilized for direct military service, with a full fifth of that force being dedicated against the Legions spearhead.

Numbers of the Legion are unknown, but according to reports, both the MLA and the Legion combine "likely exceed the NCR's population" again by the number of territories both have consumed.
>>
we need more robots. we really need more fucking robots. Holy shit we need more fucking robots right this very second.
>>
>>1911209
By "section" I didn't mean like, a few miles of the front. Think more like an Army Group so to speak.

The war against the Legion and the MLA is on several fronts, but this particular front happens to be the most dense.
>>
>>1911211
Our most important task right now is becoming a proper nation, when we do we can start properly challenging the NCR and the other factions.
>>
>>1911219
Okay. Looking at your math, it seems reasonabble enough. Assuming there are around 7 sections the size of this one, I withdraw my complaints.
>>
>>1911210
more statistical factoids pulled from the Lt's mind.

Of the NCR's various groups, the Shi are currently the largest ethnic group, having had more food, water, and better living standards than even the NCR capital. Their city, while not as large as say the Boneyard, is the most dense and ranks as the third largest population center of the NCR behind the Capital and then the Boneyard at first. This it manages despite being only half the Capitals size, thanks to their faster restoration of skyscrapers and better building techniques. Their integration represented one of the biggest spikes in their population numbers, as well as a huge boon to their industrial basis.

Come to think of it that's pretty much how your own chinese are too you too. . .you suppose it doesn't surprise you. Part of Chinese tradition is to have a large family even if it means having to work much harder to support them.
>>
So you know how everyone kept saying we didn't need to weaken the NCR and that weakening them was a bad idea since it would make the MLA to strong and that we shouldn't give the MLA as many weapons and shit as we can? Yeah well, fuck that noise. Assuming we can afford to do it why shouldn't we? Clearly the NCR can sustain the losses and we can't exactly leave them so uncontested plus the payments of steel and fissile will enable us to greatly expand. Not to mention that we could send shit through the MLA to the far north like Montana. Which means the shit we can't get through our portals we can send north via them.

Also we really need to figure out where their factories are and then either destroy or steal the machines from inside them via our tunnelling robots for our own use, study or selling to the MLA. We might also want to revisit plans to deploy the MK 6 combat AI and the New plague if they keep up after all of our efforts.


Most seriously of all, we must attempt to get stronger in a manner we know will work. Numbers is strength as shown by the NCR, the Legion and the MLA. We need Montana. We need every tribe, every town and every vault we can get to accelerate our expansion and to enhance our abilities to construct and fight.
>>
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>>1911246
George's memories reveal some of the actual Tank designs of the NCR.

You've never seen such tanks before, and they look more primitive than Old World tanks. Almost as if they are from some forgotten era. You suspect perhaps, that they are primitive such that the NCR can make them in more numbers easily.

This one is called a "Mobile Assault Gun". It has a low silhouette, the better to cover its advance behind a hill or a ditch, with very strong frontal armor. It is meant for forward assaults, to blow up pillboxes and create cover for infantry. Its the most common tank George has seen, and works alongside the infantry well.
>>
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>>1911430
88mm multipurpose gun, fires both Armor Penetrating Shells and HE at astonishing ranges, yet is light enough to be towed behind a truck or a "halftrack".
>>
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>>1911430
The NCR's "Mark IV Tank", built with a rotating turret to allow it to train its gun on a target quickly.

From what George knows only as a foot soldier, these types of tank are meant not to operate alongside infantry, but in close nit tank formations which are fast and able to move independent of infantry.
>>
>>1911430
>>1911461
>>1911484
This is great. They are stuck in WW2 tech. We get things even close to modern, and most of their weapons would be ineffective. An 88 mm won't be doing much against an abrahms, or anything on that tier.
>>
>>1911565
Your delusional. They aren't STUCK anywhere, they just chose these because they are easy to produce.

The Shi has access the energy weapon tech, and can repair power armor. That was in Fallout 2.

And even at this level massed fire will do damage with enough of it. An armor penetrating shell is an armor penetrating shell.

And they outnumber us by over 100 to 1.
>>
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>>1911484
In dealing with the Legions massed infantry forces, the NCR favors a tactic of mass encirclement using fast moving mechanized or mobile forces, supported by their dive bomber aircraft.

From there, its bloody work to slowly grind and kill the encircled pocket, whether part of a legion host or a town, while at the same time fending off any breakthrough efforts by the Legion to rescue them.

The scenes you recount from George's mind are very bloody, the Legion deploying even its civilians as militia against the NCR. And the Legion refusing to surrender, even if the NCR were to accept it. Shelling them with artillery and then hosing down any survivors with massed firepower.

Through this way, they cut up the vast Legion host and systematically wipe it out. Piece by piece, group by group.

It suddenly dawns on you. . .the NCR isn't trying to win the war by capturing key positions, or even cutting off their supply lines. No. They're trying to win the war by enacting a forced genocide on the Legion! Using their own refusal to submit against them.

That must be what the Forecaster was talking about. The NCR isn't trying to cut the Legions arteries of supply, or bomb New Vegas even if they could. . .they want to kill every last man woman and child of the Legion.

It was for this reason that you find out George wasn't captured in battle. . .he was captured when he refused to follow an order to butcher Legion civilians after they had captured a village. He fled north, only to fall to the clutches of the MLA. But after seeing what the MLA does to the living, he regretted it. . .at least the NCR only killed their enemies.
>>
>>1911590
>George
>Goddamn have I been making that typo this entire time? His name is Albert.

This was the most pertinent you could get from the Lt., though you can attempt to search for something specific (such as?)

From what you can discern. He is an outlier when it comes to his qualms against butchering Legion civilians. Most of his other squadmates, and evidently the rest of the NCR, wholeheartedly support the idea of wiping out filthy tribals. He himself didn't, as his grandmother was a tribal though he hid this fact very well.

---

Memory searching is very lengthy, you suspect you'll only be able to get a few more persons within the turn.

>Attend to other matters (the date? other?)
>Continue mind exploring (the Lt? the other POWs?)
>>
>>1911421
>Numbers is strength
Again with this thinking that we can somehow pull 7 million people out of the ass of Montana or wherever else. We cant. Period.

What we CAN do is go high tech. As >>1911565 said, their armor is worth shit if it cant affect us. Thus, we go high-tech and print bots worth 10 of their shitty tanks. Plus, we thusly dont have the need to supply our forces with food/ammo (if we make it energy weapons or self-replenishing like securitron missiles). So no, Montana is not some save-all button. We can use its resources and its people but it will not be Montana that saves us, it will be BigMT and its science staff.

What worries me more, however, is that they have replicators now. In between that, the soylent and the mathemagical production capacity we reeally have to start chipping away at them. And, while I dont oppose equipping the MLA with more AT and AA weapons, I see the real problem not on the front lines but in the back. Namely their ZAX, Doctor and replicator/Shi plant tech. We have to push hard to destabilize/destroy/convert the ZAX and the Doctor hologram and destroy any replicator research or Shi plant development they have. This is the only way to stop them snowballing. Especially since they have shitloads of manpower. If they can no longer supply that (less food per person when the soylent is gone) the MLA gets a mayor leg up. Likewise to tanks that cant fire without ammo or run without fuel (replicators/fuel industry).

Basically, have SPI do something useful for once and figure out where the ZAX and Doctor are. Then, how many locations can produce soylent and where the ion thruster prototype is. Meanwhile, introduce mindslaved exNCR back into the republic.
>>
>>1911586
And RPG shots can be dealt with with a wire skirt. Point being, better tech wins out always.
>>
>>1911629
or laser interception. Which reminds me,
>>1911613
QM, were there avengers in the divide military base?
>>
>>1911613
CHOOSE:
>>
>>1911651
There's a number of stuff in the military base you haven't actually investigated yet.
>>
>>1911616
I plan to expand through montana, then up into canada. from there we take alaska to prevent any other faction from gaining its petroleum infrastructure, and to cut off access to prewar assets.

thay planned expansion will include old calgary, edmonton, and fort mcmurray as well as the wartime bases and resouces committed to alaska.

with that as a nucleus we can expand mich more quickly than the NCR thanks to rapid cloning and education.

our 6 year olds are fit for service.

and, AGAIN these plans are not mutually exclusive
>>
>>1911654
Check the minds of every one of them that could be useful (probably not farmers but you get the point) and try some rudimentary alterations, or would that need some further actions to be really useful?

>>1911651
I agree but the wire skirt is much cheaper and works wonderfully against RPG shots. Lasers would be better against planes and bombs (slow) vs shells.

>>1911661
>There's a number of stuff in the military base you haven't actually investigated yet.
Then we investigate it a bit this turn as well. Taking a walk around the place should not be something we cant do this turn.
>>
>>1911665
I agree to military bases and seizing control of any infrastructure but you must realize that we cant possibly educate this many plebs in a short enough time to matter too much (besides raw resources). What we CAN do short term is perfect our power source and replicators, which allows us to make robots as complex as we want without any problems to resources needed or manufacturing time required.
>>
>>1911613
QM, with all of our experiments regarding brains and what not, can we fiddle around with the memories of these people to erase the fact that we basically invaded their minds?
>>
>>1911616
>Again with this thinking that we can somehow pull 7 million people out of the ass of Montana or wherever else. We cant. Period.
Yes we can.

>their armour is worth shit if it cant affect us.
Aye but it's getting to that stage that is the problem.

>So no, Montana is not some save-all button.
Never said it was but fact is it's better than anything else we've got even your high tech route since every town converted means we can spend more resources to convert more towns plus the fact that it doesn't matter if we have the best tech if we don't have the people to make use of it in terms of leading, fighting, making and developing it.

>What worries me more, however, is that they have replicators now.
Yeah I was going to call bull on that but we don't know how they are doing it...yet.

> Namely their ZAX, Doctor and replicator/Shi plant tech. We have to push hard to destabilize/destroy/convert the ZAX and the Doctor hologram and destroy any replicator research or Shi plant development they have.
Agreed.

However I can think of a few ways to also stabilise things, even if it would be questionable:

1) Unleash the MK 6 in New Reno via their robotic gardeners and defence robots (dangerous as hell).

2) Unleash the New Plague (Last resort).

3) Arm the Legion with shit to fight the NCR like we've done for the MLA (unpopular).

4) Attempt to eliminate NCR factories, train tracks and power plants (safest and easiest). Can be done with tunnellers and simple explosives.


Main point is this however: the NCR is so far off losing that even if we were to put everything we can into fighting them and shit I get the feeling we'd not turn the tide. At least not long term UNLESS we get more troops, more robots and more factories.

We need to expand AND advance but these require different assets at least immediately. Hero actions, military actions and construction / civilian actions can do more for expansion immediately than for advancing however researches can be focused on developing towards better shit long term and general quality upgrades assuming no change in cost is incurred by us. Consider we housed 200+ people (the new slave arrivals) in New Washington with a single construction action. We can easily get entire Montana towns into such a space and with their help then house more and more not to mention other constructions: factories, farms, power generation and, in time, replication facilities.

I'm not saying that raw numbers will result in an instant victory but rather that we need numbers as much as we do technological advances. If nothing else so we have the ability to produce and use those advances in battle, science and elsewhere.
>>
>>1911613
>>Continue mind exploring (the Lt? the other POWs?)
check out the tanker, and freeze them. Lets not open the can of worms that is mental alterations.
>>
>>1911695
I think at this point we can alter memories so hopefully we can erase all of this.
>>
>>1911704
Yeah, but they are unconscious so wouldn't be aware of anything we're doing.
>>
>>1911691
Id argue that we can easily use robots for most everything a human is useful for. The only thing we really need is brains.

As to factories being easy, maybe a few but after you blow up the third they will take notice. This is why we can use the element of surprise to cripple their high tech assets (ZAX, Doctor and Shi computer, soylent and replicator tech). This would leave them unable to properly supply their fast tank divisions, meaning they can no longer easily kill the Legion. Thus, we can change the front by crippling their rear (yes, we fuck them in the proverbial ass).

As to construction, we currently have still to build the brain vault, HUGE++ fusion reactor and the large disintegrator (dirt to bots and all). We can use the passive action to make bots for Montana until we get those 3 projects done.
>>
>>1911613
>>Attend to other matters (the date? other?)
Finish up the Hero Action. We can Add on a Ncr Memory dive to each of our hero actions over the next couple of turns until we get them all.
>>
>>1911710
They've probably seen us tazing them, gassing them, and shooting them with darts. It's a waste of resources to just freeze them up and I think it'd be wrong to just just simply outright kill them. So I think we should wipe their memories or something.
>>
>>1911691
I also applaud your readiness to use extreme measures to protect ourselves (bioweapons).

>>1911695
Why the hell not? We could start making sleeper cells. There is nothing more damaging to national unity than not knowing if your neighbour is a spy. Not to mention the actual espionage uses.
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>>1911686
Technically yes, though they may end up noticing the gap in time. Particularly wherever you decide to cut off their memories.
>>
>>1911695
Agreed at least for now. Need to sleep, must leave. Assuming we are getting the next turn set up soon:

1) Build a new small solar array in NW for the cheap power until the new reactor comes online and because it'll give us enough of a surplus to expand the other and increase it's output.

2) Use our military + Hero actions to convince towns in Montana to join us immediately, ask them to give us some scrap and details about nearby raiders / dangerous predators then supply medicine. Invite their leaders to watch as we destroy / capture nearby raiders / predators to show our strength and get them on our side by making the area safe.

Possibly see about getting any of the raiders willing to help the MLA to leave before we do any raids on their bases. Both to avoid combat and to help the MLA.

3) Use our researches to produce cures for all post-war diseases we can and to refine our robotic production methods or something.

4) Assign the ZAX action to creating a design for a mobile non-fissile replicator-harvesting robot by combination of the BOS mega-robot and the Big mt. Giant Robo-scorpion. Which ever is better.

>>1911715
Their fuel factories aren't high tech but besides that yeah, I'm going to sleep and will discuss this later. So long as we do good shit and don't waste actions.

Also, make sure we design a purpose built farming / biological robot to replace the Modified Mr handies we have currently.
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>>1911727
nothing more damaging to national unity than not knowing if the government didn't go tweaking your thoughts, actually.
>>
>>1911731
Can we replace memories too?
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>>1911735
Off to bed as well, its 3 am where I live. Also drunk so theres that. But I agree with you on most points. I would just like to prioritize the big leap for BigMT before anything major in outlying areas. Get the reactor and the disintegrator up and then we can alleviate our need for resources, meaning we last longer and dont have to ferry too much back home and can use more resources locally.

>>1911735
>robot to replace the Modified Mr handies we have currently.
Dont we already have bots on rails for greenhouses by Diana?
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>>1911745
And that is why we wont tell them or widely use it on them. Its like you dont understand the idea of secrets from the public. Also, way too good to pass up. Especially if we learn how to educate people in moments by doing this.
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>>1911748
On that scale? It'd be hard, and you'd need a dedicated action and even if it works as intended there's no guarnatee its foolproof
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>>1911759
>inb4 whistleblowers.

>>1911773
What scale was that?
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>>1911780
30 people whom you'll need to each tailor correctly so that you have a coherent story.
>>
>>1911773
Can we just scrub away the last day then?
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>>1911695
>>1911735
2 for this
>>1911668
1 for this
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>>1911791
Maybe the last week or so? Then we can wake them up in a hospital, say they were caught up in a psychic attack as we raided an MLA slave convoy, that fucked with their heads, maybe caused a bit of internal hemorrhaging that had to be fixed, explaining the brain surgery scars.
>>
>>1911791
Sure. But again any of them who are calendar conscious would notice a day missing starting when/just before you told them to come down for something
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>>1911677
yes we can. very specifically we can.

combine vr learning with memory implants. done.
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>>1911807
A lot of things we have here, but not there.

Also, implants requires getting people to allow a stranger to stick metal bits in their skulls. Which is a tricky proposition to sell.
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>>1911803
Would they though? not like the MLA gave them calendars. And with what they went through it isn't unreasonable to lose a day or two.
>>
>>1911852
True. its your choice whether to rely on that sensible gamble
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>>1911791
You know what? I'll support this.
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>>1911794
Just need a vote of 3, also brb
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>>1911938
And keep them isolated from others too, so they cant find out from them they were bought by us from the MLA.
>>
>>1911794
>>1911940
Check the tanker and others, we need all the information we can get as possible.

Jesus chirst.
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>>1911938
I suggest a couple days. They will notice the sudden change in environment from what they last remember, so a larger blank period is more time for our story to take place.
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>>1911695
I support this as long as we erase their memories.
>>
Actually why not just erase all of their memories of that specific point in time where we attacked them? We bring them into an infirmary and then explain to them that an science experiment accident just occured and knocked them the fuck out.
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>>1911838
memory modification doesnt involve implants. hell we dont even have to tell then what it does involve. and it can be done by robots or autodocs.

they go into one of our clinics, they are put under, their memory is modified, and they get to train with it in VR.

instant scientist, professional, soldier, what have you
>>
>>1912000
Being put under is a difficult sell in any situation. Would you let some guy do brain surgery on you because he promises you the ability to be well learned? Or does that sound like a scam?

Also, we still don't know if someone can even do thing with their memories. It's one thing to remember doing something, it's another to actually do it.
>>
>>1912000
>memory modification doesnt involve implants.
You have yet to attempt memory modification without implants, and aren't sure how it will work.
>>
>>1911965
writing
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>>1912061
Can we use our knowledge of advanced VR simulations in some way? We know how we can stimulate the 5 senses with things that aren't there AND we have done a TON of research on the brain. I don't think it is that far of a leap.
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>>1912077
It won't be a direct download though. Would go at real time, and involve normal learning.
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>>1912116
What? I am saying we use our combined knowledge of stimulating things with our knowledge of brain fuckery together. The extensive research process for the both of these can be used together.
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>>1912061
Do we have the current tech / knowledge to make Manchurian candidate style inifiltrators?

Would be worth spending a ZAX action on progressing this tech further next turn before we attempt anything.
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>>1912218
Care to elaborate?
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>>1912245
With our current knowledge of VR simulations and mind altering brain chips, could we turn the NCR soldiers into sleeper agents?

They would act out their normal lives, but when activated by a code (ala COD black ops) to then act against the NCR from the inside.
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>>1912348
That would be a bit difficult to pull off, you'll need to start devling into mind control research some more.
>>
>>1912077
>>1912354
Pls answer.
>>
>>1912354
Fair fair, but we have some of the groundwork done - correct?

I think we just need to give SPI a whack at this. Ideally we wouldn't use chips in the brain, as that is traceable. The focus should be on brainwashing within a VR context while we also apply electro shocks to nerve centres in their brain.

Defeating the NCR from the inside is the way to go. Why try and kill Yaunker ourselves when we can use a double agent for it.
>>
>>1912464
>Why try and kill Yaunker ourselves when we can use a double agent for it.
Absolutely! If we can place infiltrators into the army who then feed us info on troop movements and supply lines and weaknesses we can use that to temporarily cripple them at a key point in time. This would be after we take down their main science hardpoints.

QM, could we make a chip or better yet a worm that temporarily takes control of the NCR ZAX and connects it to BigMT (where we do extensive reprogamming to slave it to us)?
>>
The Tanker's name is Austin Freeman, grandson of a former slave rescued, according to his grandfather, by the Chosen One himself.

He grew up in New Reno, and worked at a vehicle chop shop. Back then there were still cars, but very rare, and often only driven by anyone smart, lucky, or rich enough to get the parts together. Anyone who wasn't a combination of at least two of those ended up with their car stolen and sold.

Did he always want to end up working for a gang? Going through a car trunk and seeing the precious valuables and property stolen from another person? No. But he was good with a wrench, and his family needed the money.

He remembers the NCR annexation. How they promised to bring order and prosperity to New Reno. All they brought was the propserity, but not to them but to the Mob Owners they worked with. Now in addition to what he had to pay the families, he also had to pay taxes. If he didn't grow to despise the NCR, he certainly got out of their way.

Presidents came and went, this Yaunker fellow wanted to recruit everyone into his war in the Mojave. Austin wanted to try his hand at being a truck driver or mechanic in the army, but feared reprisal from his bosses for leaving the job.

Then the news of the Mojave being lost. An army of raiders and rapists was marching onto all of California. Even the families were concerned, and there was rumprs of sending envoys to strike a deal with this "Legion" the NCR had hyped up so much about.

>con't
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>>1912077
Certainly you can try to fool someone with simulations.

Although your NPC programming might need some touch up.

>>1912464
Of course.

>>1913100
ZAX's are particularly defensive of themselves. The fact that they are self aware and intelligent enough to govern their own programming means you'll need to actually be physically in contact with one and deal with any defensive mechanisms it uses to
reprogram it, such as you did with Diana.

You'll have to find it and get to it first.
>>
What might be easier than memory modification for learning would be time dialation drugs coupled with Accelerated VR learning pods.

Perception of the passage of time is largely a neurological phenomenon. And certain chems already induce slow time. By placing a slow time individual in a full immersion VR pod they can experience learning at a much accelerated rate.
>>
>>1913364
>You'll have to find it and get to it first.
Thats the idea. Find the sucker and slap a chip on him (premade at BigMT to temporarily stun him and connect to BigMT for reprogramming).

Preferrably we would have a few bots infiltrate the place, slap the device on him and remove it once we are done and the ZAX is under our control. Rinse and repeat for the Doctor. The device itself could essentially DDOS or otherwise overload the system for a while, thus leaving it unharmed.
>>
>>1913363
Then came this new President, Yaunker. Another big man in the NCR capital making promises he couldn't keep no doubt.

Until the newspapers started coming in. A whole division from the Frontier, brought back south after they had been exiled. The NCR Congress being cleaned up, several congressmen arrested for charges of treason, with images of them being dragged away by NCR soldiers. Congress being cleaned.

But with the breakdown of society it was small good news. Until not very long after, he woke up one day to find the whole city in an uproar. In the night, ALL of the families heads were gone, fled or detained by the NCR. The trials were huge, mountains of evidence and photographs. Nobody had ever thought it could happen, but the families were tried and brought to justice. Soldiers occupied the streets, bringing with them truckloads of fixxer, NCR food, water, something the NCR never did before.

All around he saw the streets of new Reno being cleaned up by Mr. Handy's and former junkies, engineers surveying buildings to be torn down and rebuilt. The NCR had annexed New Reno years ago, but only today did they make their presence known.

What did this mean for Austin he wondered. Would he go to jail for his gang membership? Instead he woke up to find in his letter, an advertisement for a truck mechanic.

The word Yaunker was meaning something to him, something different. . .it meant change.
>>
>>1913392
Austin worked his new job, while his family found more employment in the jobs opened up by Yaunker's presidental acts. There was a way to get gasoline from trees now, and loggers were needed in the North and the South in old Mexico where the trees had grown wild since the war.

He himself found his own mechanical skills valued, not working on stolen cars but on government trucks, with good pay and feed. And more, he was actually noticed. There were entirely new training schools for mechanics, he was selected to go to one after his lieutenant noticed his skills.

Soon, he was swearing an oath of secrecy. It was no ordinary training school, but a Tank Factory, converted from an old world Car Factory, and hidden away from the eyes of Frumentari. Here he would learn the makings of a Tank, from the inside out, the transmission, the engine block. How to deal with common mechanical failures so crews wouldn't have to abandon faulty tanks. Even here they were selecting people, looking for the most skilled, the most intelligent, the smartest, and taking them away. Rumors were spread, but no one knew where, only that they enlisted the very best they could find for whatever it was.

He was never selected for that, but after enough time building and repairing tanks he was selected to become a Tanker himself, as an engineer.
>>
>>1911751
Fair enough, you feel that building tall works better than building wide. I've always felt the opposite. I do agree we need to get the disintegration system running constantly just making something. As to the robots, true but we don't have the underground farms built so we can't use them and we'd want a better design for Montana until we get the underground farms built there as well. Since it'll reduce the amount of shit we have to teleport or produce.

Also we should really see about checking in on the Legion. Depending on how badly things are going for them I've got one or two ways to make them stronger and stall the NCR. Mostly getting them and the MLA on talking terms so they can work together against the NCR or getting the Legion horses (assuming they don't have any which seems likely) since that'd increase their mobility, ability to command and various other such things.

We really should also try and get the MLA to capture us a NCR super-soldier and vault trooper. Since they'd be quite useful for genetics and other such studies. Plus we might work out where they are making them.
>>1913441
>Soon, he was swearing an oath of secrecy. It was no ordinary training school, but a Tank Factory, converted from an old world Car Factory, and hidden away from the eyes of Frumentari.
But not from our eyes! All in favour of a covert strike? Deploy a few poisonous releasing tunnellers and blanket the area during the night, killing them all or something? If we were to deploy some explosives we could destroy the factory itself or with a few more tunnellers or a portal carrier we could take apart the machines and take them away for our own uses or even trade them to the MLA.

>Even here they were selecting people, looking for the most skilled, the most intelligent, the smartest, and taking them away. Rumours were spread, but no one knew where, only that they enlisted the very best they could find for whatever it was.
Either for the Ghost division or for super-soldier shit. We need to capture someone selected for that program or something...
>>
>>1913464
Yup. You know exactly where it is.

Actually when SPI comes back expect a big map
>>
>>1913464
I