cyberpunks is played outpost examples where big corporations and the government are basically good or at least lawful neutral and its just a few renegade criminals and political extremists making life difficult in the near future?
Well, I'd say that real life is currently a good example of that.
>>76561029Implying that RL isn't just the most tedious and unexciting form of cyberpunk
>>76561000Closest I can think of is Aeon Flux, but that's not very close.
>>76561000Ghost in the Shell? Things are shady as shit but it's not totally dystopian. A lot of Stross' stuff comes close too though usually post-scarcity kicks in making current power strunctures irrelevant and Greg Egan is as always a treasure
>>76561041I meant the part where he implies big corporation and governments are "basically good".
>>76561073"Or at least lawful neutral" might be justifiable for a naïve optimist. The sheer short-sightedness a laser focus on quarterly returns causes is more like chaotic stupid.
>>76561000what dis image is from?
>>76561000I think what you're looking for is that big corpos and government are not comically mustache twirling villains' who cause dystopian suffering for it's own sake.At best, life is fairly mundane except now as a birthday present instead of getting a car you get your first neural implants so you can use your devices hands free (sorta). Such a thing would probably be so ubiquitous that even the poorest people have some form of neural augment of some sort.At worst, the rich are virtually immortal transhumanist and maintain a monopoly on said immortality by shear cost and upkeep but instead of being so detached from humanity they torture people for fun they are probably fucking off to the other half of the solar system or live in space stations while joe nobody goes to work in a virtual office using his brain's processing power to file paper work.
>>76561133You a phoneposter or something? Patlabor is in the filename.
>>76561041We're not there yet. Close, but not yet. We're the backstory of an incredibly boring cyberpunk setting dominated by increasingly stupid elites and sock-sniffing techbros.
>>76561164patlabor? whats dat?
>>76561000god you’re a boring person
>>76561200Mecha anime centered on a police unit who use giant robots to fight crime.
>>76561244wats mecha lol?
>>76561060>Greg Ega>always a treasureHe's shit. Dude can't write characters that are remotely human to save his life. They're just exposition bots.
>hey /tg/ let's be creative>NO THIS BOARD IS ONLY FOR NEGATIVITY AND GATEKEEPING FROM QST>OMG I HATE EVERYTHINGso I know an anon here wanted me to sperg out whatever I'm drunk.Patlabor is a deconstruction of Gundam: in Gundam they have fantasic medium sized robots with bad ass pilots. There's almost a religious gleam to it, the robots are so powerful and their power is so transcendent.This became a cliche which was addressed in a couple of ways1. gundam itself which had a post apocalyptic series where humanity was recovering from a catostrophe and the gundamn were just arena fighters for primative entertainment2. eva, which literally made the mecha into god like alien things3. and patlabor, which rationalized it all by saying mecha were impractical for warfare and space nonsense and the only realistic use for them would be as construction tools. thus the only reason for a "combat" version of these worker mecha would be to stop a renegade, criminal pilot of a construction mecha. thus patlabor: mobile police division. Patlabor has pedestrian, low stakes adventures, the most eventful thing that ever happens is like a 9/11 tier false flag in the second movie. The bad guys are largely disgruntled employees and hackers and renegade factions within the military. 3 is the only version of the dystopian near future that hasn't been done to death already. It is not modern, it isn't near mordern. Its cyber punk without the punk, you are busting punks. Its conventional morality in the same setting.
>>76562037Thanks, anon. That sounds like a real interesting anime. I'll check it out. Is it only subbed, or is there a dubbed version?
Is it just me, or is everyone else here misusing the concept of deconstruction as applied to works of fiction? I thought the idea was to take a narrative device, portrayed in the standard cliche fashion, and then show either or both of the preconditions required to make them happen in a real world context or the consequences of them occurring in real life that are glossed over in standard uses of that device.
>>76561060No. Ghost in the Shell is unarguably dystopian.>not totallysplitting hairs. Neither is cyberpunk in general then.
>>76561000>Accidentally makes all modern cyberpunk media look like childs play
>>76563244This board has a real problem with literary criticism.
>>76561000Armored CoreChrome is the largest of the two mega-corps competing for power. They're definitely not above using underhanded methods to gain an edge, like funding a terrorist organization that attacks the other mega-corp.On the other hand, the districts under its influence are well structured and there's no indication of being particularly dystopian. After a great war that resulted in the collapse of both mega-corps, the new organization carrying the efforts to reconstruct adopts their social policies.Similarly, Ace Combat 3 shows the conflict raising from a crash between two mega-corps but the life of an ordinary citizen doesn't seem worse than the real world.
>>76561060GitS is literally about how small people don´t get fucked over for now because doing it isn´t profitable right at this moment. But when it happened and the victim miraculously survived, they could basically suck a big one and shut up.Even the happy-go-luck police officers in Patlabour were an org literally founded to surpress labour conflicts during a period of intensive, state-backed infrastructure construction efforts.
>>76564389So, basically just like real life?
>>76561000That just sounds like a cope anon. We're already seeing very plainly that megacorps and money in government are a negative for most people and are causing immense amounts of terrible bullshit.Pretending they'd be good without drastic systemic changes that would take away the core tenets of a cyberpunk setting is just trashy.
>>76564453IRL you theoretically have legal recourses and those companies will at least agree to throw some money at you to not be bothered.
>>76561107nah, by its very nature the system is pretty negative - or evil if you prefer that term.You need to remember that the reason you can have a cellphone is thanks to cobalt slave miners, child labor in india, and human rights violations in china though as inevitably happens when industry is outsourced to another country, china is hitting the tipping point where their own working class is demanding more rights so now industry is starting to migrate out of china and into SEA, africa, and india>>76561181eh by boring you mean like, mundane and mind numbing suffering
>>76564389GitS isn't about small people but they do get fucked over on a regular basis, like in any cyberpunk setting.>>76564453except with worse consequences cause the tech allows it.
>>76564506>the mcdonalds hot coffee lady>ended up dying of complications from the severe burns she recieved>never had her bills fully covered and was the victim of an amazingly run smear and legal campaign that become the poster boy for the 'frivolous' lawsuits big corporations claim are so prevalent and abusivetheoretically I have the ability to become the president of the US too
>>76564521>except with worse consequences cause the tech allows it.That's technology regardless of how optimistic the setting is. If there's mind upload and crime is still a thing, you're going to get hell cubes.
>>76564540>theoretically I have the ability to become the president of the US tooSource? From what I read is she was paid a large part of what she wanted and died in 2004.
>>76564572>Ransomware in a cyberpunk settingI am really suprised how optimistic cyberpunk writer were when IRL we can imagine people running automated global abduction schemes from other people´s computers.
>>76564572Only if the story says so.There's plenty of stories where the setting has massive potential for terrible stuff happening but it just doesn't happen. It does in GitS.
>>76564540Actually had to look this up, only one part of this was right. >became the poster boy for the 'frivolous' lawsuits big corporations claim are so prevalent and abusive
>>76561000Any mainstream media that isn’t trying to do some social critique bullshit? Media is mostly owned by the rich, why would they want to shittalk themselves and promote, even if minutely, anger towards the establishment from a docile population? Anyways the opposite of cyberpunk is solarpunk.
>>76564677solarpunk isn't a thing
>>76564677stop taking /lit/ memes seriously
>>76563487Well, it's not the literature board and faggots like OP should FUCK OFF and GO THERE.
>>76564673>>76564616Depends on what you accept as a source, but if you dig deeper than wikipedia (though wiki has some general strokes for sure) and throw out things that proclaim it as frivolous and attempt to defend mcd's (since if mcd's had actually been the victim they wouldn't have payed out more than the originally offered 800$), you get>3rd degree burns so bad it could've killed her>mcd's coffee being this hot was something they had repeatedly received complaints, suits, and warnings about but kept it due to being an ideal temp for keeping things hot, making it last longer, and generating slightly higher profits>note that this policy had coffee kept near boiling when served>originally the lady only wanted coverage of her 20k+ medical bills but mcd's refused to offer more than 800$ which is what triggered the decision to sue>the jury was so aghast by the whole case that they wanted McD's to pay punitive damage on top in excess of 2mil, but McD's managed to coopt an out of court settlement for ~500-600k>this money ended up going to in home nursing care and medical treatment for ongoing complications from the burn damages until the lady died after ten years of severely reduced quality of lifeyou have to gather info from a lot of sites and compare basically. The biggest issue is that so much misinformation got propagated that people think, for instance, that she got the 2mil+ the court originally wanted to award her, that she fully healed without issue, that the coffee was normal temperature for what people are used to in home (the mcd's policy had coffee 30+ degrees hotter than average home coffeemaker coffee right out of the tap, and at that temp it causes severely damaging burns in 7-14 seconds which is a big problem if it gets in clothes), or that the coffee melted the cup.
>>76564749Given that most of our inspiration come from pop-culture books and derivatives I'll kindly ask you to reconsider.
>>76562037>>76563224What the fuck are you talking about?Patlabor is a cop show with giant robots. There's no intent to deconstruct anything, it's just a cool premise.Same for Evangelion, it doesn't have much to do with Gundam at all, it's just Anno and Sadamoto mashing together a bunch of Go Nagai and Ultraman references, with a more modern edgy 90s aesthetic. Then Anno went bonkers as the production went bankrupt and it went off the deep end but there's nothing about the treatment of mecha in Evangelion that you can't find in older manga/anime/toku.I mean sure they rationalize stuff in their own way. But that's not deconstruction that's just worldbuilding.
>>76565058It's mecha deconstruction because they're used to demolish houses too.
>>76565147good one carlos
>>76563224It's got a dub. By US Manga Corps. Good luck.
>>76562037>Patlabor is a deconstruction of GundamI love reading 'mecha takes by people who don't watch mecha', almost as good as 'magical girl takes by people who saw Madoka once'
Aura Battler Dunbine is a deconstruction of Gundam:it subverts the new age Newtype stuff by taking place in an explicitly fantastical universeit subverts the concept of giant robots by having giant bug suits insteadit subverts the concept of Tomino names by giving the characters extra-retarded names.10/10 masterpiece best mecha show in existence DON'T EVEN bother watching anything else
>>76565789meme apart, aura machines are quickly superceded by aura fighters and aura bombers.
>>76565789This is a joke, everyone. An actual "please laugh at this" joke, not a "I'm so stupid that I think I'm smart" joke.
IN A WORLD where characters express themselves SOLELY in tominospeakONE EMO BOY must watch tokusatsu shows from the 1970s in order pilot his mom.MEANWHILE Kei and Yuri have an existential crisis even worse than in Dirty Pair Flash.BUT THE JEWS attempt to use wiccan powers to take over Japan.anime is now deconstructed.
>>76565385>I love reading 'mecha takes by people who don't watch mecha', almost as good as 'magical girl takes by people who saw Madoka once'Gonna love that ones. Its strange
>>76565385>mecha takes by people who don't watch mechaGundam: Story about Gundam fighting Char.Macross: Jet fighters and singing.Votoms: The Gilgamesh and Balarant nations had until recently been locked in a century-old galactic war whose cause was long ago forgotten. Now, the war is ending and an uneasy truce has settled. The series follows a main character named Chirico Cuvie, a special forces Armored Trooper pilot and former member of the Red Shoulder Battalion, an elite force used by the Gilgamesh Confederation in its war against the Balarant Union.
>>76566156Hah!wrong as shit, VOTOMS is about the PAAFEKTO SOUJA
>>76563244People typically use deconstructions as "What if X bu crapsack", even though you rarely get deconstructions like Nanoha where it's "what if a magical girl had self-confidence and didn't require constant cajoling by the mascot?"
>>76566267>what if a magical girl had self-confidence and didn't require constant cajoling by the mascot?
>>76566191 more like PAAFEKTO HASUBANDO>>76566267Nanoha is a completely unironic shounen battle series.
>>76561000That’s just cyberpunk (or really just real life) from the perspective of an upper middle class corporate office worker and not from the perspective of a poorfag.
>>76561000You could have a kind of clean, utopian scifi society, and the PCs being criminals/insurgents/terrorists fighting against the administration of this beneficial system.
>>76566706The poorfags could have a good life as well if they didn't spend all their credits on weapons and other unsavory stuff.
>>76562037Patlabor had military combat mechs in both movies.
>>76561000Sounds like you're talking about Post-Cyberpunk, which is basically cyberpunk but not so bad as we feared and so the protagonists are working to preserve the system instead of tearing it down.
talking about genre fiction on /tg/ is impossible because all you get is a bunch of dunning-kruegers talking about what the genre really is about, man. And they’re never even close to right, usually because they’re incapable of anything but the most shallow observations or obsess over whatever TVTropes tells them are the genre conventions
>>76566874Who told you that this is what post-cyberpunk consists in?
>Deconstruct this>Deconstruct that>Dismantle this>Dismantle that>Destroy>Destroy>DestroyWhy aren't people "building" things anymore? Deconstruction implies you should be building something up in it's place, not just tearing something down because it's "Fun." That's what children do.
>>76567086No, building things is what children do. They take their lego box and they build toys.
>>76564389>Even the happy-go-luck police officers in Patlabour were an org literally founded to surpress labour conflicts during a period of intensive, state-backed infrastructure construction efforts.Won't someone please think of the drunken idiot rampaging through a residential neighborhood in a bulldozer? He's a member of the proletariat so he's being supressed, right??
>>76567114you are literally stupid.
>>76561000>please post stories where being a bootlicking sycophant is a good thing
>>76567223>We live in an era where society is more willing to stomach a future where civilization has completely collapsed, than a future where capitalism does not exist.
>>76567250Specifically white western privileged liberals want that yes
>>76567262I don't see how anyone can think extraction capitalism is sustainable without having the wool pulled over their eyes by Tom Marketing.
>post examples where big corporations and the government are basically good or at least lawful neutral This isn't a deconstruction because it's wholly unrealistic and the "consequences" of it being applied to the genre would be utter fantasy. No major megacorporation has the population's best interests in mind because even if you had some kind of all-controlling altruistic philanthropist in charge, you still need to generate the massive profits and income to feed the titanic beast that is your megacorp. If you're looking for some kind of corpo-shill sci-fi series that has extremely little "punk" elements, you should just look somewhere that isn't actually Cyberpunk.
>>76567099And adults just kick them over for fun, right retard?
>>76567288Capitalism should by all means be considered only a tool in the varied toolbox of ideology, but once we picked it up, everything started to look like a nail.
>>76563470Man of culture detectedUchuu Kyoudai is also good, but more realistically boring in comparison to Planetes.
Battle Network is the most cyberprep setting out there, tech has penetrated everything and it's everywhere but life is good and the worst thing that can happen are terrorists hacking tanks
>>76567443Yes, retard, as a matter of fact they do it for a living.
I'm gonna have to repost this:Post-cyberpunk is not a movement or even a genre, it's a term made up by Lawrence Person to describe a handful of early 90s novels that happened to take place after, or at the end of an in-universe cyberpunk age.He then went on to list a few things that some of those novels had in common, but they're so wildly different from one another that his categorization doesn't fully work, and he recognizes it. The only thing they had in common was the fact that they acknowledged cyberpunk as something that happened in-universe. And then, a bunch of people heard of the term "post-cyberpunk" out of context, and came up with their own definitions of it based on nothing but their intuition and hearsay.Such as:>cyberpunk based on Current Yeardoes not apply to the earlier post-cyberpunk novels, also may not be functional as a genre>cyberpunk with middle-class or upper-class protagsnot a new thing in cyberpunk>soft cyberpunkuselessly vague and requires an arbitrarily narrow redefinition of cyberpunk>cyberpunk but without the dystopianot distinguishable from regular scifi>cyberpunk but optimisticnot a new thing in cyberpunk>cyberpunk but the protags try to preserve the systemnot a new thing in cyberpunk>cyberpunk where the protag has a job/familynot a new thing in cyberpunkThe more you try to nail down post-cyberpunk, the more you end up with a) regular cyberpunk under another nameb) regular scifi under another namec) something that has nothing to do with the novels mentioned by Person.And more often than not, these definitions are built without any reference to a corpus of works, they are constructed a priori, and retroactively applied to a variety of works that didn't intend to go beyond cyberpunk at all.The main reason the term still gets circulated is because the word itself conveys a vague sense of novelty and maturity.
>>76567477>but once we picked it up, everything started to look like a nail.Same way heroin makes everything else in life taste like ash.
>>76567335Only post that needed to be made in the whole thread.
>>76567562yep. the only thing recently one could consider post-cyberpunk is altered carbon, in that the cyberpunk elements are old hat and long established, and even that is tenuous but hey, even pedants need to feel pretentious
>>76567728something like that yeah
>>76561000Ghost in the Shell is this. Despite what a lot of people seem to think, it's not cyperpunk at all. They're literally law enforcement.
>>76565058NGE was less based on Gundam and more on classic super robot tropes. In a typical super robot, the father builds a giant robot so his son can fight invaders from space. NGE takes this basic formula and applies "realism" to it, by asking what would "logically" happen in such a scenario. As a result of this new environment, the classic, heroic tropes can no longer function. This is why NGE is widely considered a deconstruction of super mecha, because that is what deconstruction means. Tldr; whether Anno intended it or not, NGE does deconstruct stuff.
>>76567821Who told you that cyberpunk characters can't be law enforcement?
>>76567114He is right but he is also wrong.Their job was basically protecting the wider public from people going nuts with construction equipment.Because one guy did it and they had to call in the army to resolve it with considerable collateral damage.Nine times out of ten it was basically a worker setting out to cause shit because his working conditions or life in general were shit. But does his inability to effectively organise with other workers give him the right to attack members of the public and destroy private property (often residential property) with construction equipment? >>76567335Dunno. Maybe the Henry Ford of futuristic CEOs.He did get sued by the Dodge brothers because his response to increased profits was always "Hire more workers, pay them more, lower prices!" when the Dodges and other shareholders wanted dividends.
>>76567853>As a result of this new environment, the classic, heroic tropes can no longer functionBut they can. As evidenced by one of the big sources of inspiration for NGE: Gunbuster.Anno simply CHOSE to not have them function because he was getting depressed. Not because he wanted to deconstruct the genre.Besides there's plenty of super-robot stuff that doesn't have goody two shoes heroic protagonists
>>76567934I wouldn't call robocop a cyberpunk story.It's more in line with a western mixed with a greek tragedy.
>>76567853>This is why NGE is widely considered a deconstruction of super mecha, because that is what deconstruction means.It's widely considered a deconstruction of super mecha because people do not have any knowledge of super mecha beyond hearsay.
>>76565058>76565058There's no pretending that things like Gundam and Macross were ubiquitous by the 80s. Taking a lot of the same mechanical design approach, and telling a more lighthearted story with it is indeed deconstructive. They're taking apart the narrative and looking at the individual pieces, and seeing how they might function in a different way.
>>76567983It mayhaps not be a cyberpunk story but it takes place in a default cyberpunk setting.
>>76567983Answer the question.Who told you that cyberpunk characters can't be law enforcement?And answer this question:Who told you that cyberpunk stories can't also be westerns and greek tragedies?
>>76565058It's also worth remembering that patlabor was a setting made by a group. Written by committee basically.Generally speaking a deconstruction only works effectively if its made by a single writer as more people involved tends to mean the initial underlying theme gets lost. It was also very much a product of its time when deconstruction wasn't incredibly popular in terms of storytelling in Japan.
>>76568049>It mayhaps not be a cyberpunk storyit is though
>>76567821you are stupid
>>76568020This is not what EVA and Patlabor did.
>>76568069>Who told you that cyberpunk characters can't be law enforcement?No one respects the tank police
>>76568069>cyberpunk characters can't be law enforcement?
>>76568097Cyberpunk is literally near future dystopia/shitty world science fiction where the cast is bucking the system. Where in GitS do they do that? Government agents stopping terrorism. There's nothing punk about working for, or being "the man".
>>76568069I wasn't the one who said that. But on the western thing. Robocop consistently follows the themes, tropes and even musical styling of a western. Even Robocops helmet design invokes the image of characters like the lone ranger.While it certainly takes place in a cyberpunk setting, it doesn't really follow the beats of a cyberpunk story outside of corporate tossers being tossers. Which wasn't exactly an unusual premise in westerns either with corrupt wealthy bankers and business tycoons being frequent villains in them. The corporate crowd in robocop are also presented in a manner more consistent with the business tycoon character archetypes present in westerns. With villainous corrupt ones cavorting with outright criminals for their own gain, then more morally neutral perhaps even good ones. The CEO of OCP in Robocop isn't depicted as outright evil or even lawbreaking, just profit seeking. A neutral character in terms of morality.
>>76561000What it sounds like is you want a police procedural set in the future. There's several Anime like this. There's been a couple of TV series like this as well. The Minority Report TV series was like this and there was on in the 90s that was literally Law and Order with robots. I would think that Thunderbirds Go! would fit the bill as well.
>>76568187that’s not what cyberpunk is. i’m sorry that you learned the definition from TVTropes or reddit or whatever. Japanese cyberpunk has always, always had a different relationship to the stateCyberpunk isn’t just “neuromancer retold” over and over. Cyberpunk is about particular philosophical, social, political and economic anxieties born out of a certain time period and the predicted, projected and imagined technologies. why do you think so much western cyberpunk deals with anxiety about looming economic dominance by japan? why do you think japanese cyberpunk has different anxieties about the same thing? narrowing it down to “oh then protagonist has to be against the state!” shows a philistine way of thinking.
>>76568187When they shut down a government-run brainwashing center / orphan workhouseWhen they uncover a government conspiracy to control third-world countries and arrest the leader of section 6When they run over the leader of section 1When they arrest the boss of a robotics corporation for child trafficking and drug trafficking, and then arrest a colonel for having taken bribes from themWhen they foil an attempt by the ministry of the interior to have them dissolvedWhen they thwart an attempt to embezzle public funds by a spyWhen they make the minister of the interior punch himself in the faceAnd this is only in the first run of the mangaShall I go on?
>>76568187>the cast is bucking the system>cyberpunk needs to star the punks to be punkGaywad
>>76568276not to mention that section 9 goes against the state VERY FREQUENTLY
>>76561000Transhuman Space can be played as a cyberpunk, albeit with slightly less cyberware and more biotech.Pro tip: Ignore the artwork, it's very misleading and no one knows why SJG approved it in the first place.
>>76561016Top fucking lel, no.Even an overt cyberpunk dystopia would be preferable to the clown world hell we live in.
>>76568208>it doesn't really follow the beats of a cyberpunk story outside of corporate tossers being tossersAre you fucking shitting me?The protagonist is a victim of technological progress and uses it to get an edge on the people who wronged him. He goes rogue and fights back against the system. >The CEO of OCP in Robocop isn't depicted as outright evil or even lawbreaking, just profit seeking. A neutral character in terms of morality.And?Where does it say in the big rulebook of cyberpunk fiction that every single corpo has to be a total scumbag?So again, I ask:Who told you that a cyberpunk story cannot also be a western and a greek tragedy?
>>76568208And the CEO of Silky Doll is depicted as outright heroic.
>>76567821Most cyberpunk fiction has laaw enforncement as protagonists (Blade Runner, gits, robocob, etc)
Law enforcement protags are an excellent viewpoint to explore cyberpunk themes. They can get away with violence, they can show you how the system works, they can access every stratum of society, they're constantly confronted with the darkest aspect of the setting, and they can be faced with plenty of moral dilemmas.
>>76568555>faced with plenty of moral dilemmas.I can imagine.
>>76568004This, pretty much. And I speak as someone that likes EVA
>>76568187The funny thing is, both Maximum Mike Pondsmith and William Gibson have both said openly what Cyberpunk is about and so many people get it wrong. Cyberpunk is about retaining your individuality and personality by pushing back against cultural homogenization and authoritarianism.
>>76567250We shall all return to monke, and trade with coconut shells.
>>76568726the floof is irrefutable!
>>76568637>retaining your individualityTo be subsumed by a virtuous cause is better than to be unique.The absence of unambiguous virtuous causes has caused many, understandably, to assume that all causes are invirtuous and uniqueness is unambiguously a good thing.
>>76568683I only deal in MWh.
>>76568797Nobody cares, moralfaggot.
>>76568797Lack of self identity distinguishable from others is a symptom of serious mental health issues. Schizophrenia and borderline personality disorder are no joke. Also, absolute conformity causes a sickness in the culture; it killed Sparta and caused the rise of Fascism in Germany. Many genocides have been done using your argument as the excuse.
>>76568797>To be subsumed by a virtuous cause is better than to be unique.Fuck off moralfaggot. I will go against your morals just to fucking spite you and your ilk.
>>76568797>To be subsumed by a virtuous cause is better than to be unique.Always count on 4chan to make bold, declarative statements about subjective discussions.
>>76568911Hello? This is the CEO of Based, ltd. I would like to offer you a position.
>>76568929Oh, while I am honored, I must refuse your offer, out of spite.
>>76568712Her boss is an old monkey. Very wise.
>>76569029Apeface and his gorilla girlgranddaughter, preferably. She's not that old.
>>76568555Well, cyberpunk is linked with the noir genre. Still, I'd venture to say that Motoko is something else from a hardboiled loner detective.
>>76569079She's a fuckin ninja. A tsuchigumo. That's pretty punk.
so cyberpunk without the punk?cybermodelcitizen?
>>76569330Cyberprep seems to be the preferred term.
>>76569104Ninjas are the ultimate cogs in the machine
>>76569347nah they're from rogue clans
>>76561000>and the government are basically good or at least lawful neutralSo you mean normal cyberpunk like Ghost in the Shell?
>>76569357There were two regions that fought and maintained their independance without being part of the samurai system, but the majority of Ninja likely were just Samurai with additional training for night ambush operations, special weapons and intellingence/scout work.
>>76569391the government in GitS is a bunch of sneaky assholes trying to fuck each other over though.>>76569408yeah but in folklore and stuff
>>76569104What I meant is that I think (most) of GITS stories aren't really cyberpunk-ish in the same character-driven vein of Blade Runner
>>76569450They're really cyberpunk, but they're more plot-driven
>>76569450>Blade RunnerAnother example of Lawfult Neutral Law Enforcement vs Terrorists.
>>76564466>Pretending they'd be good without drastic systemic changes that would take away the core tenets of a cyberpunk setting is just trashy.I have this idea about a setting mixing ancient greece with scifi in which mega-corps would be the equivalent of the clans (oikos). It would produce everything its members would need, from food to military equipment, but it wouldn't be exactly like a corporation.I haven't worked the idea enough yet, but I find it interesting enough to remember it from time to time.
>>76564512We could have had cellphones without that, just not a new model every few years that we didn't even need.
Idk fuckin atlas shrugged or something? Corporations and governments are gay and even people who work in them know this
>>76569486there's a french comic that's a scifi re-telling of the iliad, try to find it
>>76569480True, not all cyberpunk is overtly rebellious. I wasn't arguing about that.I'll just point that Deckard is not a cop but a private eye, in any case.
>>76568343Hell section 9 is a pretty good case study of how a cyberpunk society could avoid becoming a dystopian hellhole. The governments resources and cutting edge tech let it keep the corps in check, and internally the bureaucracy, sheer size, and constant departmental pissing matches make it difficult to easily subvert. The stories that end with section 9 uncovering a conspiracy usually start with the typical left hand vs right hand bullshit common in government. It's hard to gain control if all it takes is another department stumbling into your criminal operation completely by accident to ruin it. The kind of corruption you see in GITS isn't some huge cabal of people trying to control society or keep the underclass down, it's individuals or small groups trying to abuse the system for their own personal enrichment. It's the same mundane kind of corruption that happens today and has been happening since the dawn of time, and the fact that section 9 finds these people and takes them down is proof that the system does work. Despite the settings weird, scary tech and its philosophical musings on the nature of the soul ultimately most of the really bad, worrying, and dangerous applications of this tech are considered illegal and treated as such by the government and society at large.This is one of the reasons I like GITS so much. The people and society feel recognizable even though the world is totally different. People are still struggling with the same problems humanity has had to deal with since we first crawled out of the muck. Technology hasn't necessarilly made this process worse or better, it's just changed how we engage with it.
>>765694802049 wasn’t exactly about being neutral
>>76569546>and the fact that section 9 finds these people and takes them down is proof that the system does work.absolutely notSection 9 is NOT the system.It's a barely legal strike force that Aramaki managed to put together by playing the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of the Interior against each other, and taking advantage of the precarious position of the new prime minister. S9 are an anomaly.They don't answer to anybody. Their very existence is a symptom of the system's dysfunctional nature>and dangerous applications of this tech are considered illegal and treated as such by the government and society at large.as is the case in every cyberpunk setting, but it doesn't prevent the government from using that technology themselves.Technology definitely has made things a lot worse in GitS, there can be no denying that it is a dystopia, sometimes in a literally cartoonish way. Not every part of the setting is a shithole, but that's also true of most cyberpunk settings.
>>76566156>Gundam>Macross>VOTOMSI reiterate; 'mecha takes by people who don't watch mecha'All you're missing from the bingo card is TTGL and Eva
>>76569703aw yeah I remember that>TTGL IS A RECONSTRUCTION OF WHAT EVA DECONSTRUCTED BY DECONSTRUCTING EVA
>>76564466Tankie please fuck off. Your ideology has never worked.
>>76569564I honestly forgot that movie even happened.
So what if we made cyberpunk something its not? You know it has "punk" in the title right? Meaning you're rebelling against authority in some shape or form.
>>76568555Neo-Noir tends to be a fairly common framework for Cyberpunk stories, although you need to keep in mind there needs to be a reason for the "punk" elements to exist, or it's just a sci-fi story involving a criminal in a futuristic era. It's one thing to involve a terrorist who has cybernetic implants from some previous war who got PTSD and went mad. It's a completely different thing for those cybernetic implants to have come from a doctor in the backroom of a barcade using shit he rigged together from stolen implants and his own homemade machine fabrications.
>>76561657>implying I give a shit about characters compared to the ideas on displayThe only time I've ever cared about love was an ayy for whose species birth is the death of the mother coming to terms with his wife choosing to give birth/die the traditional way after a whole book was spent reinventing pregnancy (he does a good job turning the familiar into body horror too).
>>76569949Eh I don't think that's a big difference, the determining factor would be more if those implants are what caused him to go mad.
This is a much better futuristic hyper-capitalist game than anything else ever made >like 2-3 corporations rule entire galaxies with generic names like "megacorp">not only do they engineer freely available weapons for sale to the public they also make ships, employ bandits, routinely destroy entire planets to make room for resorts etc >even the fucking gangs are all for-hire>when you save somebody's life they still make you pay upwards of 40k bolts for a weapon you NEED to save the galaxy >even the fucking hero is a corporate stooge >even you are
>>76569819nah lol it sounds like you just haven’t read any of the foundational works
>MUH ANTI-CAPITALIST MESSAGE>MUH PUNK THEMEShaha cyberarm cannon goes brrrrt
>>76568155tanky boys, tanky girls, woh oh oh
Why does everyone think that Cyberpunk is anti-capitalism? If anything, it's a protest against the individual will of people being taken away. Capitalism is economic free will of the individual.
>>76570561but muh peak-capitalism
>>76570268Enjoying anything for 'themes' is fucking stupid.
>>76570691>Enjoying anything>/tg/ of 2020
>>76570582"Peak-capitalism" isn't capitalism as it's used by communists. What they are really talking about is feudalism. Oddly enough, it's the end stage of socialism in 100% of cases where it's been applied. Giant corps don't exist in a pure capitalist society as they need strong enforced rules to protect their own economic status while keeping others from encroaching on it.
>>76570691>enjoying art bad>mongrel geekdom sperging good
>>76563487Every fandom is borderline illiterate
>>76563244Part of the issue is the asshat pseudo-intellectuals that say they are deconstructing things but in reality aren't making legitimate critiques but shitting all over the subject. This leads other to believe that "deconstructing" is making a literary device shit on itself without any meaning.The problem with trying to deconstruct Cyberpunk is that it's too real. You can challenge the tech but you can't ignore the partnership of giant corps and governments sapping away the the worth of normal people being the actual status of today. You can't deconstruct reality without engaging in some serious lying.
>>76570561The notion of Cyberpunk being about "high-tech, low-life" implies heavily a massive abundance of the tools that lowlives have access to and the increasing resentment and rebelliousness of future generations being emboldened by the shifting access to what exists in the future. While someone could easily come up with a Punk notion of a Fascist or a Communist future, the issue is that when the state controls everything, there is extremely little room for individualism, and thus rebelliousness and "punk" attributes are rarely given room to breathe, grow, and blossom. A hyper-corporatist society wouldn't care to deal with the junkies and murderers the block over if it meant that they would simply not fuck with their shipments, and would slaughter them wholesale given any fiscal and legal justification to do so. They have no incentive to care about human life beyond its ability to generate profits, and the people below naturally resent them for the dehumanizing hell that they foster, but the people below are given free reign to live, exist, and show their own resentment in public. A Cyberpunk story in some kind of futuristic North Korea couldn't exist because the amount of rebels would be extremely small and not indicative of a culture, they would be spotted the instant they attempt to do anything subversive, and even if they managed to get cybernetic implants and augmentation, there's nothing to imply the common lowlife in their region would (most probably would never be permitted access) and that lowlives in their region exist without instantly being thrown in prison.
>>76570724>implying minarchy doesn't lead to a corp-police combine blossoming into a state and ending up at feudalism even quicker
>>76568823Yet (You) cared enough to reply, fag.>>76568896>don't cooperate with other people like you or you're schizophrenic or a Spartan or a Nazi or somethingLibertarianism is a mental dysfunction>>76568911You won't do shit of importance, stirnerfag, and you never have. Your ideology is the purest expression of jealousy-born-from-weakness.
>>76571220>t. seething marxist still mad at Stirner for dabbing on Marx's shitty dogmatic world view
>>76571247I'm not a marxist, faghoula, but stirnerism is ever so transparently a cope for the powerless. "I'll act only in my own benefit- any day now!" Ad infinitum.
>>76571320You don't even understand the point Stirner makes, top lel.
>>76571220>>don't cooperate with other people like you or you're schizophrenic or a Spartan or a Nazi or something>Libertarianism is a mental dysfunctionThat is a poor straw-man argument. Cooperation is a hallmark of humans as much as individualism. The two elements acting in concert and pulling in different directions in the psyche is how normal, healthy humans are. You can act in cooperation with others and form groups without loosing your self identity or completely conforming.Completely abandoning your sense of self is destructive and unhealthy. Whether it's to a cult, a political group, or a TV show, it's wrong to do so and even more wrong to insist that someone else do so.
>>76571148I can't think of a more Cyberpunk reality that current year China. It fits the bill comepletely all the way to individuals and small groups using the most advance tech available to act out against the system, both government and corps.Sure, some of them are ideologues, but much more of them are nihilistic outsiders. So yeah, Cyberpunk is anti-authoritarian, and in the case of it being applied to modern China, pro capitalism.
>>76561000So, ordinary sci-fi then? What a fucking waste of trips.>>76570561Because it was an inversion of sci-fi anti-communist literature of the time such as 1984 in which the State takes over the market and controls everything; in cyberpunk the reverse happens and the megacorporations take over the market and controls the State instead.>>76571148>While someone could easily come up with a Punk notion of a Fascist or a Communist future, the issue is that when the state controls everything, there is extremely little room for individualism, and thus rebelliousness and "punk" attributes are rarely given room to breathe, grow, and blossomCourse it can. Just look at any banana republic in the world today, chock full of anarchist groups.
>>76561000>post examples where big corporations and the government are basically good or at least lawful neutral and its just a few renegade criminals and political extremists making life difficult in the near futureThe inhabitants of Todos Santos may live in a surveilled cyberpunk termite mound, but the surrounding city of los angeles is basically robocop detroit.
>>76571503>Because it was an inversion of sci-fi anti-communist literature of the time such as 1984 in which the State takes over the market and controls everything; in cyberpunk the reverse happens and the megacorporations take over the market and controls the State instead.If this is waht you see then you failed to understand what you read. Go back and find the interviews done by Gibson, Dick, etc and see what they were really writing about. Honestly, Orson Wells's 1984 is a Cyberpunk novel all the way to the bone.
Toha Heavy Industries was the good guys in BIOMEGA.
>>76568441>Where does it say in the big rulebook of cyberpunk fiction that every single corpo has to be a total scumbag?It's right there in the book of "I've heard of cyberpunk but never actually read or watched anything."Real popular these days for some reason.
>>76568637Too bad none of their books are about that.
>>76569049We know she's probably older than anyone else on the team, including Ishikawa.And with a total conversion, she can be any age.>>76569391Portrayal in GITS varies between continuities. SAC probably gives us the most in-depth portrayal of government, and probably the most sympathetic - and the best people we're shown are professional flip-flopping survivors and ultra-conservative hawks because almost everybody else is both ruthless and incompetent.Pretty far from the "government bad" stereotype people who've never seen or read anything cyberpunk live with, but still not exactly good guys. More like "realistically crooked" - especially the part where the most sympathetic politicians end up being the ones the team doesn't quite agree with, but at least knows they can be trusted to be honest and reliable.
>>76565385Recomend us actual mecha media. Got a sci-fi game coming and I'd like to partake.
>>76571629>then you failed to understand what you reaWhat's your take then, oh enlightened one?>Orson Wells's 1984 is a Cyberpunk novel all the way to the boneRight destination, wrong train track. Read my comment again.
>>76571702Pondsmith never wrote a novel to my knowledge. Most of the fluff he wrote for his games rarely gave us much of a peek as to the motivations of the characters or much of their personalities expect for the players to play against.Gibson's novels never spell out a clear meaning to anything because he's not wired that way. His novels usually have a characters trying to weave their way through the mess without getting hurt or pinned down. They tend to be nihilists and tend to be passively against anything that requires them to commit or conform.
>>76569391>GitS jap govt>good>neutralNot in the original movie, no. The very first scene is Major Kusanagi killing an (implied American diplomat) on behalf of another Jap Govt dept to prevent a Jap citizen from defecting, false-flagging as a terrorist. The entire plot revolves around one Jap govt dept trying to fuck the other dept over an AI. The spider-tank they fight is their own. The Major's body is blasted by Jap military snipers. Hell, it's the entire motive of Major Kusanagi's acceptance of the AI's offer to merge spirits (translated as "ghost"); earlier when Kusanagi talks to Batou on the boat, she says that practically all her body is now Jap military tech and she'd have no body to turn to (literally) if she resigns, hence why she continues doing what she does.That's some interesting methods for employee retention they got there.
>>76571862First, go look up what the masters of cyberpunk have said and you won't need to hear it from me.Second, what's the difference between tyranny from one group vs another? It's tyranny. When it's a tyranny that uses tech as a tool to implement oppression, you have a cyberpunk setting.
>>76571879>Gibson's novels never spell out a clear meaning to anything becausehe often doesn't know what he's writing, he just kinda put it together and it happened to fly. E.g. he didn't even know how computers work until after publishing Neuromancer.
>>76572008>what's the differenceSeems I'm not the one talking out of MY ass here...Gibson, at least, mentions reading Orwell and similar anti-fascist lit in the run-up to writing Neuromancer.
>>76570561Cyberpunk was created and exists as a genre that critiques existing social relations within capitalism through a sci-fi lense. It was created in direct response and reference to dystopic sci fi depicting evil space commies and utopian sci fi depicting nice space commies.Also your views of capitalism are childish.
>>765716291984 was not written by Orson Welles.
>>76572098>Also your views of capitalism are childish.The very crux of Adam Smith's works is that giving people economic free will improves the economic wealth of the nation. Everything else is his observations and evidence to support his conclusion. Later researchers and authors expound on it but that's what it is.The communist flip on it is that when you allow people to make their own economic choices, some will do better than others and then turn and use their riches to enslave those that didn't do as well.That's it. That's what you get with a bachelors in economic theory.
>>76572158Orwell, crossed my wires there. Sorry
>>76572000They later mention that part of what makes Togusa so reliable is that he's still almost entirely human. Outside of economic screws nobody really has anything on him. He can't be hacked. The government can't take his body away. He's 100% natural, and that makes him ironically make reliable. The Japanese government is a government. It is neither evil nor good. It exists in an ecosystem of other major global powers where its advanced cybernetics keeps it alive. A rogue scientist with a sentient AI is absolutely not something that can be allowed to leave because it would compromise the integrity of Japan's position in the ecosystem. The world of Oshii's GitS is NOT peaceful. Everyone is fresh off WW3 and itching for WW4.
>>76568166Dredd predates cyberpunk, though not by a lot and was probably inspired by a number of events and ideas in common.
>>76572072>Gibson, at least, mentions reading Orwell and similar anti-fascist lit in the run-up to writing NeuromancerSure, and this was his take one it. His big change was to make the protagonist driven purely by self interest rather than by some ideology or a representation of good. Also, he updated the setting based on his observations and his idea of were things could go from where he was in the mid 80s.
>>76572329Mike Pondsmith crystalized the concept of Cyberpunk but has acknowledged in interviews that it goes back much further than the 80s. He has stated that he sees Dicks writings as cyberpunk or proto-cyberpunk.
>>76563470I love Planetes but I'd hesitate to call it cyberpunk.
>>76562037Cool, I'll check it out.Also I read the entire post in Falcos voice.
>>76561000>where big corporations and the government are basically good or at least lawful neutralSo already better then real life?
>>76572299>a government. It is neither evil nor goodUhh... most people would argue that doing a lot of bad shit makes you a bad Govt. I agree it's open to debate, but the GitS Jap Govt hardly strikes one as the "good guy" here.>>76572350>His big change was to make the protagonist driven purely by self interest rather than by some ideology or a representation of goodI think I see where you're getting at, but that view is a bit broad to me. It opens up the question, is it cyberpunk if it's just the story of self-interested revolutionaries in a fascist sci-fi regime?>his idea of were things could go from where he was in the mid 80sNah, it seems he just pieced things together without really having a real clue about how things work. Stross on the other hand is extremely ahead of the ball in such matters, so his near-future works are worth exploring... although he is a raging feminazi.>>76572387This also opens up the question; where do you draw the line between cyberpunk and sci-fi dystopia?
>>76572329>>76572387Metropolis was the first cyberpunk story.Not only did it coin the themes of tech giants vs the common pleb and all the issues of machines becomming more and more intermingled with life, but even the aethetics of the monolithic urban canyon devoid of humanity.
>>76572553>Metropolis was the first cyberpunk storyIt's at least an influence on the genre. Especially the part where Freder works the factory, or the Moloch scene.
>>76568555/tg/ of all boards should know that the original Cyberpunk 2020 had "cop" as one of the available roles
>>76572553Metropolis shares cyberpunk's themes but not its language and imagery. That's important too.
>>76571792>And with a total conversion, she can be any age.Not in the original continuity, cyborgs are supposed to look their age
>>76572764>doesn't understand basic economics>spergs anywayMarxists, literally
Another point in the "GITS gov is evil" is the episode where the Japanese DEA had actual no shit death squads being used domestically that the protagonists fought.
>>76572299yeah well it's pretty full of antagonistic characters who don't seem to care about the well-being of others.>>76572000Small correction, Motoko does not choose to merge with the Puppetmaster in the movie, it's done without her explicit consent. The resulting creature is fine with it, but Motoko herself doesn't say "okay let's go for it", she just has a dazed expression on her face as it happens.Unlike in the source material where she actually accepts it.
>>76572526>It opens up the question, is it cyberpunk if it's just the story of self-interested revolutionaries in a fascist sci-fi regime?>This also opens up the question; where do you draw the line between cyberpunk and sci-fi dystopia?I think this is the same question asked in two different ways. Scifi dystopia is a setting, a backdrop, and can be used to tell a ll kinds of stories. An epic hero story would be one where the protagonist has the goal to make the world a better place. A drama would be one where the main character faces challenges and his goal is to overcome those challenges to return to his own state of normal. A punk story is where the protagonist puts himself at odds with the accepted norm because he internally driven to do so for his own gratification. Any of them can end with a happy ending or a tragedy.I can imagine a decent cyberpunk story where the authorities aren't evil but simply without the means to address the problems society is facing. The protagonist hates the the fact that everyone simple accepts that things are failing. In his angst, he turns to bank robbery via hacking so that he can burn out rather than fade away.Hell, I would describe Bonnie and Clyde as punks for the depression era. They weren't heroes, they weren't revolutionaries, they weren't ideologically driven. They were self serving nihilists. To quote Pondsmith: Punk - from an early 1980's rock music style that epitomized violence, rebellion, and social action in a nihilistic way. He even said in a recorded interview at PAX that cyberpunk is a very broad genre that incorporates a lot of different types of stories that is different from other genres of scifi in that the protagonist isn't a hero.
>>76572778Your idiosyncratic notion of what ideal capitalism looks like is not even really a question of economics. You are not describing an economic reality but pushing an ideology.
>>76572553I could see that. At the very least, it's proto-cyberpunk.
>>76572892yes but not more than that. Cyberpunk has a language, that Metropolis doesn't have.
>>76572299>Everyone is fresh off WW3 and itching for WW4.I'd have to rewatch it but I'm pretty sure it's fresh off WW4 and itching for WW5.At least that's how it is in the other continuities
>>76572948Honestly that just makes it worse.>>76572526I completely agree that they're not the good guy. They're just not the bad guy. They do some rather vile things, but they also do shit like take in refugees when they very much do not have to. It is a nation-state that values self-defense first and that makes sense because it's been involved in numerous world wars and has to value its self defense or its neighbors will eat it. GiTS is not the peaceful world of 2020 when a nation can abolish its military and shrug.
>>76572948Yeah in the stand alone complex series the world went through nuclear world war 3 and non-nuclear world war 4.Most of the cast fought in at least one of these wars. But yeah the major powers are all itching for some kinda confrontation. Mostly the American Empire it seems.
>>76572702>>76572909Could you elaborate on the language aspect?Tech speak ala 'I hacked the virus to breach the firewall, fuck those suits' would hardly be the defninition of an entire genre.
>>76572008>When it's a tyranny that uses tech as a tool to implement oppression, you have a cyberpunk setting.adding this to my collection of illiterate ideas about what cyberpunk is.
>>76573035>but they also do shit like take in refugees when they very much do not have to.That would also depend on the version you're talking about. In some, the refugees are exploited and oppressed, and the government tries to weasel its way out of protecting some of them. You need a fairly strict definition of "bad" in order to claim that the government in GitS as a whole aren't the bad guys. Originally the prime minister is a full-on WW2 era caricature.
>>76573115I am not saying it's the definition, I'm saying it's part of the definition.Techno-thrillers for example share cyberpunk's language, but not its themes and narrative focus.Metropolis shares its themes and narrative focus, but not its language. It takes a lot of things to have a cohesive genre.
>>76572880>REEEE IT DOESN'T WORKExcept it literally does, everywhere, from bronze age abos to first, second and third world nations and even fucking prisons
>>76573166Personally i think the best description of GitS (and for that matter, things like akira, gunbuster, and other anime of the era) relationship to the state speaks more to the japanese relationship to the state in that time period. That is: conflicted and generally viewing the state as caretakers of society that have partially, but not fully, gone astray. It tends to be about conflict within the state, between state actors and business, their alternating competition and collaboration. it’s both rather more pessimistic than american scifi (which tends towards a belief that there are Good and Bad governments) and optimistic (for the same reason).
>>76572234>The communist flip on it is that when you allow people to make their own economic choices, some will do better than others and then turn and use their riches to enslave those that didn't do as weNo.Communists believe that the capitalist owning class have competing interests to the working class, and that this brings them into conflict. It does not care about how either side got there.>The very crux of Adam Smith's works is that giving people economic free will improves the economic wealth of the nation. Everything else is his observations and evidence to support his conclusion. Later researchers and authors expound on it but that's what it is.Adam Smith reaches many conclusions, but even he believed in limiting economic freedom, and that certain types of economic activity are inherently problematic (He especially despises landlords).>>76572387>>76572701Whoie I absolutely believe pondsmith has something worthwhile to contribute as he clearly loves the genre and helped codify it, and I 100% believe that law enforcement is a valid position from which to engage with the types of critiques inherent to cyberpunk.It must be acknowledged that night city is a retarded setting and pondsmith's own writing has little to nothing to do with even his own conception of cyberpunk.
>>76573242Well in any case they tend to be the antagonist, and are rarely well-intentioned.
>>76573252worth noting, at least for the benefit of others, that a landlord was something a lot different in Adam Smith’s time to what we call a landlord today.
>>76573252Night City is retarded. It is also an extremely cool setting that is more culturally valuable than most political literature.
>>76561000>DeconstructingYou fucking illiterate moron. The word you want is "subvert", not "deconstruct". Deconstruction of cyberpunk would merely be breaking it down into its subsequent elements for individual analysis. Stop listening to idiots on the internet and go read Derrida. Second, you can't deconstruct cyberpunk in that way without fundamentally falling for the cyberpunk genre's core criticism, especially when denial of that criticism (the invisible hand will correct the market! the good in people will correct the injustices inherent to the system!) is objectively falsifiable. Even moreso with the neoliberal "a few bad apples" sophism. Rather, if you want to subvert cyberpunk, you need to see it on its values: cyberpunk is How Far Can We Fall? The degeneracy, the failure of society, the failure of the system, the failure of the protagonist to do anything but the cynical, self-preservational thing, or to die for doing the selfless thing. If you want to subvert that, you need to turn it around: How High Can We Rise? THAT is a rare one, but typically your Rodenberry-style utopias, humans past the material limitations and searching themselves to find the best version they can be. Of course they fail sometimes, but it's not reason not to try again and become better.>>76567086This was actually an issue Derrida had when coining Deconstructionism. To deconstruct implies that it can be put back together again or put together in a new way, that it isn't an act of destruction, but of action. This is why I get an aneurysm every time I hear "deconstruction" used like OP.
>>76573317No it's the same thing. His objections are to the basic landlord-tenant relationship.>>76573326How do you define "Culturally valuable"?
>>76573343>THAT is a rare oneeh not really, utopian scifi isn't that exceptional
>>76573352Based, as opposed to cringe.politics are cringe.
>>76572872>A punk story is where the protagonist puts himself at odds with the accepted norm because he internally driven to do so for his own gratificationInteresting take. The keyword I'm getting here is destructive self-gratification.>>76573115>'I hacked the virus to breach the firewall, fuck those suits' would hardly be the defninition of an entire genreOn the other hand, this IS a really decent 1-liner summary of cyberpunk...>>76573242Yes. Patlabor is more self-aware than GitS in this regard, as it explicitly makes it part of the plot that Jap militants are complicit as well and in fact make up a large segment of the Govt; whereas GitS at times does sink into "lol fucking Muricans amirite" territory
>>76573383Pondsmith very much uses his platform to talk about political issues dude.
>>76573352no, a tenant and a landlord were different things though similar. >>76573333the essential difference is that in the time of adam smith a landlord refered to one who owned tracts of land which others would work, and he would collect from those tenants a Rent, which was essentially a substantial tax on what they collected. depending on time and place, this could be currency or (i believe more often) a portion of what they produced it is worth noting that 1 these are the landlords that you might see being referenced by mao in tepid twitter posts about killing landlords. 2 these landlords still exist, notably in turkey, the phillipines, brazil, latin america in general, etc.in smiths own words>This rent may be considered as the produce of those powers of nature, the use of which the landlord lends to the farmer. It is greater or smaller according to the supposed extent of those powers, or in other words, according to the supposed natural or improved fertility of the land. It is the work of nature which remains after deducting or compensating everything which can be regarded as the work of man.>The rent of land, therefore, considered as the price paid for the use of the land, is naturally a monopoly price. It is not at all proportioned to what the landlord may have laid out upon the improvement of the land, or to what he can afford to take; but to what the farmer can afford to give.
>>76573367Sorry, I meant *notable* fully automated luxury gay space communism stories. Other than Star Trek, they're just not very popular. We have a much larger tendency to imagine the end of the world before the end of capital.
>>76573418>GitS at times does sink into "lol fucking Muricans amirite" territorygits and it’s adaptations are often just straight up nationalistic and in fascinating ways. SAC2 is most notable because japan’s claim to success is that it is the sole producer of radiation scrubbers (it doesn’t take freud to see how this fits into the national psyche) and they reclaimed the islands russia took after WWII. Though they only touch on it, the show seems sympathetic to the repeal of article 9 as well. the original movie certainly has a ton of anxiety about the loss of japanese culture as a result of their success.
>>76573343>Deconstruction of cyberpunk would merely be breaking it down into its subsequent elements for individual analysisNot OP, but I think subversion is part of deconstruction.>denial of that criticism (the invisible hand will correct the market! the good in people will correct the injustices inherent to the system!) is objectively falsifiableExplain this in simple English.
>>76573418>Interesting take. The keyword I'm getting here is destructive self-gratification.When you look at the punk movement of the 70s and 80s, it could very well be called self destructive. Certainly, many died young and without much that others would say was a contribution. Divorced of genre, who would you call a punk?
>>76565789Lyrical Nanoha is a deconstruction of Gundam.It subverts the near-magical abilities of Newtypes and ace-pilots by it explicitly being magic.It subverts the concept and genre of giant robots by just replacing them with (progressively less) little girls.It subverts the concept of foundational quality by being a spin-off of a porn game about incest ninjas.10/10 masterpiece, would ship all the lesbians during again.
>>76573435>The rent of land, therefore, considered as the price paid for the use of the land, is naturally a monopoly price>implying rent is free of market forcesLesson here: Even great economists can be kinda brainlet.
>>76573510Human populations are not ideal gases. We are often unwilling to abandon our homes.
>>76573510actually i think the lesson here is that you can’t read and are ignorant on the subject since you don’t seem to have even a shadow of an understanding of what he means here by monopoly price, or what rent means in this context, or what market forces are. sad
>>76573483The funny thing about GITS version of fuck murrica is that the empire is basically a slightly more aggressive and honest cold war era USA continuing into the tech age.
>>76573489>self destructiveCyberpunk is also destructive to others. Protagonists rarely give a shit about collateral damage, and victimising "teh suits" is itself an objective. No paragons of ethics here.>Divorced of genre, who would you call a punk?As you say, a rebel against accepted societal norms, especially one who perceives oneself to be relatively unfairly disenfranchised. But that's out of topic I think; I'm most interested in the definition of "cyberpunk".
>>76573510Basically every economist from Keynes to Smith to John Stuart Mill to Marx argue that land ownership is it's own weird thing.
>>76573486>I think subversion is part of deconstruction.You're wrong. Deconstruction is a postmodern analytical method pioneered by Jacques Derrida. Subversion is a narrative tool to upend genre expectations. These are not equal concepts or part of one another. Using subversion to upend cyberpunk genre expectations that Corps and Politics are generally not the issue, and it's in fact fringe outsiders, relies on centrist sophistry and faith in outmoded economic philosophy that is demonstrably fantastical.
>>76573545Sentiment is factored in market prices too. In fact for quite some time it's been considered THE big component of profit margins; all that "experiential economy theory" and so on. (I'm actually doing a doctorate touching on this area.)A simple English example, following on from your analogy: how much can I (or the market) pay you to abandon your home vs how much are you willing to pay to not abandon your home? That would become the "market price".>>76573547>REEEE NO YOUdilate
>>76573603Here’s smith on why you’re wrong, /biz/tard> The landlords, operate a certain kind of monopoly against the tenants. The demand for their commodity, site and soil, can go on expanding indefinitely; but there is only a given, limited amount of their commodity.... The bargain struck between landlord and tenant is always advantageous to the former in the greatest possible degree.... Besides the advantage he derives from the nature of the case, he derives a further advantage from his position, his larger fortune and greater credit and standing. But the first by itself suffices to enable him and him alone to profit from the favorable circumstances of the land. The opening of a canal, or a road; the increase of population and of the prosperity of a district, always raises the rent.... Indeed, the tenant himself may improve the ground at his own expense; but he only derives the profit from this capital for the duration of his lease, with the expiry of which it remains with the proprietor of the land; henceforth it is the latter who reaps the interest thereon, without having made the outlay, for there is now a proportionate increase in the rent.” >”Rent, considered as the price paid for the use of land, is naturally the highest which the tenant can afford to pay in the actual circumstances of the land.” you’re showing yourself to be a dime a dozen internet “expert” who hasn’t actually read anything but considers himself smarter than everyone who has.Again, he’s not talking about a guy who owns an apartment complex and rents it to people to live in, he’s talking about landowners charging rent for people to work the land.
>>76573568I suspect that the context in which they argue that really only applies to nations rather than individuals or corporations. In which case I have a simple sword to cut through that Gordian knot of theoretical blah: Govts own the land, set the rent more or less arbitrarily, and shoot you if you don't comply, end of story
>>76573640Georgism is gay.
>>76573581>These are not equal concepts or part of one anotherExplain in simple English why not.> relies on centrist sophistry and faith in outmoded economic philosophy that is demonstrably fantastical.Explain in simple English why this isn't utter bullshit.
>>76573476That would be because one man's utopia is just about everyone else's dystopia, and thus utopian scifi tends to fall off the mark.>>76573483>>76573554Shirow is a gun nut, that's about all you need to know about the political stances expressed in his IPs. I do not mean that in a derogatory way.
>>76567515If im not mistaken that version of the megaman universe takes after Wiley’s ideas instead of Lights which eventually leads to humans and reploids being nearly the same having to take implants and having enforced lifespans (and the implied capacity to mate and produce offspring)
>all these leftards desperately trying reinvision near future scifi to fit their narrow definition of cyber"punk"Anyway i came up with a new term to describe all the trash on the internet, Cyberpollution.
>tfw all OP wanted was to talk about fresh ideas in cyber punk>tfw it just devolved into leftypol making appeals to authority, quoting dogma and telling people they're stupid>tfw every thread I make that doesn't get ignore or get me banned for 3 months or something ridiculous is just a vehicle for leftypol to make appeals to authority, quote dogma and call people retards
>>76573688people don't understand utopia vs dystopia in fiction. These things aren't genres.For example some people have been pushing that cybershit is always dystopian fiction even though that isnt true. To use another example post apocalypse fiction isn't necessarily dystopian or utopian it can be either.
>>76573713what the fuck are you talking about? are you just the libertarian upset that people disagree with you? how is quoting adam smith to explain adam smith “leftypol appeals to authority”? You could just explain your own disagreements with citations instead of crying
>>76564991Inciteful anon. Very nice
>>76573713Take the clean break pill. Just stop using "cyberpunk" let the leftards have their gay term associated with their gay idea of punks vs the system (ironically their system)
>>76573713Nnnno that's not quite what he wanted, he specifically wanted to come up with an alternative to cyberpunk where The Man is the good guy and the rebels are the bad guy, which isn't exactly fresh, and may not in fact be a legitimate sentiment artistically speaking.That being said FUCK /pol/ and FUCK /leftypol/
>>76573750insightful not incite lel
>>76573735>For example some people have been pushing that cybershit is always dystopian fiction even though that isnt true. To use another example post apocalypse fiction isn't necessarily dystopian or utopian it can be either.Can you mention examples of cyberpunk scifi that is not dystopian?
>>76573681>Spoonfeed me, I'm illiterateNo.
>>76573756in most "cyberpunk" stories the man is usually the protagonist since cop stories make up the bulk of the work. The term cyberpunk is a misnomer and attempt to leech off BR's success.
>>76573603I see. I think this falls into what most people consider a monopoly to be: the only thinkable option is to rent from you if you're the only available landowner. For me, the amount of money you'd have to pay me to move would be enormous compared to, say paying mercenaries to destroy my home outright.
>>76561107>corporations are good!>that's why they're constantly lying to you>that's why they're constantly shoving propaganda down your throat>that's why they don't want you to realize they're using slave labor in China/India/etcThe irony is the people complaining about slavery 200 years ago are defending the companies that are practicing slavery today.
>>76571398Nothing about his work has anything to do with not working with other people.
>>76573804no the irony is the people attacking the corporations are on the same side as them.
>>76573781>in most "cyberpunk" stories the man is usually the protagonist since cop stories make up the bulk of the workThat is a massive misunderstanding. Cop protagonists in 80s fiction and especially in cyberpunk fiction are NOT The Man, they are loose cannons at odds with the system. They are defined by their antagonism to authority as much as they are defined by their antagonism to crime.
>>76571360Commies and their ilk believe the whole world operates naturally on a two-party system. They'll never understand
>>76573817>no the irony is the people attacking the corporations are on the same side as them.?
>>76573756I am the OP, but I'm also not a retard. I know to get replies on this dogfarm you need to throw out some red meat, not just say exactly what you mean. Probably the best way to get replies is to use a big word somewhat counterintuitively and see how many midwits join the thread just to lecture me on the "correct" definition, before they "get mad" as it were.
>>76573838Fuck off they are cops doing their job and thats shooting baddies.Deckard in BR has the job of hunting down rogue replicants and putting a bullet in them.
>>76573670Perhaps. But it is what it is. Gubmints, in their capacity as the collective will of its people, have all the power to squeeze you for as much as it can get away with.>>76573637You quote a lot but you don't apply the quotations to your argument, and no they are not at all self-explanatory. So let met do it for you, brainlet: Smith basically says 1) Land is finite but demand is ever-growing; 2) landlords are always richer than tenants so they can squeeze the tenants; 3) if a tenant improves the property the landlord benefits, 4) the landlord further benefits by charging more rent on said improvement.This all works very well in theory but not in market practice: 1) Demand shrinks when economic activity shrinks, as anyone who's bought a property in the wrong part of town would well know; 2) squeezing is still dependent on market conditions such as competing landlords, as anyone who's tried to rent out property in a buyer's market would know; 3) not true as improvements often are temporary, and require upkeep; 4) rental is more often a fixed sum than a percentage other than for commercial properties, and that should all be imputed into the tenant's consideration anyway.Which is why I go back to what I said here >>76573640 these theories apply more at a national level, and even then with some major caveats as not all nations are created equal.>Again, he’s not talking about a guy who owns an apartment complex and rents it to people to live in, he’s talking about landowners charging rent for people to work the landSo you're quoting an extremely narrow and dated theory to support an argument for a much broader and modern system, got it.
>>76573707>That whole post
>>76573849Ah I see you were merely pretending to be retarded
>>76573750>>76573764I wondered if you did that on purpose, heh>>76573777>hiding behind rhetoricI hope you're a troll, I'd hate for you to be this unironically dumb.
>>76573858And the morale of the story is that he must instead learn to be compassionate in order to retain some self-dignity. >Fuck off they are cops doing their job and thats shooting baddies.Which oftentimes involves disobeying orders and shooting The Man.
>>76573858How the actual fuck did you miss the point of blade runner this badly?
>>76573838one could see this as a western parallel to the colonel in akira or to section 9 in GitS - both are explorations of the state at odds with itself, with trying to determine what is and isn’t it’s better nature. both the disgruntled cop and the shadowy government organ are expressions of the authors’ conflicted feelings that the state is supposed to shepard society and has failed to do properly and morally. It’s tinged by the japanese/american views on the role of the self and the state in society. thanks anon, you’ve helped me understand this a lot better
>>76573893>>76573894>le bladerunner is actually an anti-cop story.How is it that you miss the point of speculative fiction? You god damn idiot fools.
>>76573897its just political faux drama that is prevelent in Japanese mature anime. A lot of times its completely meaningless and badly written in the script. It just seems "cool" like any Kojimba game.
>>76573783>the only thinkable option is to rent from you if you're the only available landownerAs I keep telling people, no, you don't HAVE to buy Starbucks all the time and then whine that you're broke; a cup of Nes is perfectly acceptable. Likewise, one doesn't HAVE to live in NYC or similarly-priced places, or take up X amount of living space. And one can always wait for the housing bubble to blow.This is the theory of the free market, anyway. Of course, said theory has certain built-in assumptions, one of those is that it is relatively easy for competitors to come in. E.g. zoning regulations make that problematic.Anyhow it's nowhere near as monopolistic as Adam Smith suggests, and anyone who thinks so is welcome to buy land in Bumfuck Falls, Ohio, and reel in all that juicy rent.
>>76573913You overplayed your hand.
>>76573860again you misunderstand. the difference between a landlord in the modern sense and the landlord in the sense adam smith means is ESSENTIAL to his argument that they are a monopoly. you’re essentially arguing that smith is wrong because that doesn’t apply to modern real estate markets -you’re correct that it doesn’t, but smith isn’t talking about those at all! in fact there wouldn’t be much of a market of land in england in that time because the landowning aristocracy was still intact at the time of his writing - it haven’t yet fully transformed from feudal property relations to capitalist ones. > So you're quoting an extremely narrow and dated theory to support an argument for a much broader and modern system, got it.No, I’m quoting him exclusively to explain that a landlord in smiths definitions is not the modern landlord. the term landlord has changed meaning almost entirely in the english speaking world, because the old form of landlords don’t exist in the english speaking world. I’m not even sure what “modern system” you think i’m supporting here. I don’t know how to make this any clearer.
>>76573817>>76573848>>76563948>be me>be impressionable college freshman>fall in with some commie dogwhistle organization about sweatshop labor>faggots go on and on about what clothes you can wear >there are maybe 5 or 6 brands on EARTH that don't use sweatshop labor and don't require a loan to buy a shirt.>almost all of them are American/European made>faggots go on screaming about "muh white man's evils">notice most of them still wear the brands>mostly end up traveling around and holding "organized actions" (inciting small riots) for "the worker's cause" on other liberal campuses.>everywhere we go there's tons of free money and host houses and event spaces the university PAID for us to have to demonstrate AGAINST their own staff.>You have no idea how fucked this system is. The rampant faggotry is supported by every institution imaginable. Some of them deliberately attacking themselves so they can have a "change of heart" and attract more publicity and liberal organization's funding.
>>76573897In Deus ex you play a counter terrorism cop who discovers a conspiracy of globalists that invokves his own employer. Denton isnt a a rogue element. Denton is still just doing his job. A corrupt system is still a crime.
>>76569546>>76569678I agree with both of you. GitS (especially the SAC series) is a very grounded cyberpunk borderline dystopia, but Section 9 is definitely an anomaly. You're both making me want to do a CP2020 campaign for a police strike team.
>>76573994No, if you boil down all scifi work into "punks vs ebil capitalism rightwang conspiracy" you are a retard.BR is trying to describe to you a different lifestyle and point in time including all the ups and downs and morality. Its not this infantile "teh system is teh bad and ashkully the cop is fighting it"
>>76573564>Cyberpunk is also destructive to others. Protagonists rarely give a shit about collateral damage, and victimising "teh suits" is itself an objective. No paragons of ethics here.Yep>As you say, a rebel against accepted societal norms, especially one who perceives oneself to be relatively unfairly disenfranchised. But that's out of topic I think; I'm most interested in the definition of "cyberpunk".It's a conjoining of cyber, technology, and punk, you know, punk. Just as you defined punk.
>>76573999Alright, fair enough, but how does that apply to the overall discussion? Like I said, you quote but you do not APPLY
>>76573814WTF are talking about?
>>76573858you're right as a lot of cooler headed anons have already pointed out, cyberpunk was never about being a communist revolutionary, it was about being a cog in the machine and being pit against others of your own class or a lower one. The closest blade-runner came to a revolutionary message was to have Deckard run off with Rachel, presumably just to be hunted down and die like the first group of nexus 6 escapees. In fact the whole "revolution" of killing Tyrell was completely empty and unsatisfying for Roy: all he wanted to do was live longer, not change society. Roy's grace achieving moment is when he decides to spare Deckard, the man's man who was sent to hunt him down. how is any of that punk? That's just classic existentialism. The 4 year lifespan of the replicants is the only detail tying the thing down to its "cyberpunk" setting, if that wasn't there the entire cast and story could have been plopped down just about anywhere.This story could have easily been set in the 1300s and the replicants could have just been nobles from a fallen house being exterminated, and Deckard some retainer with possible familial ties to them being tragically charged with slaying the lot of them. letfypol will dissagree wit this but who cares what those brainlets think
>>76574018>most cyberpunp fiction is actually cybernoir>revolves around cops and counter terrorism units>ashkully dis is an anomaly, gibson is ral cyberpunk xD
>>76574030anon nobody is buying it any more. You overplayed your hand.
>>76573870I sense much butthurt in you, good
>>76574010Legitimately seeing this on several boards on this site, and I am not happy with it at all. I'm not sure if this is some epic edgy counter-counter-counter culture memery or if we legitimately have a lot of actual pseudo-Libertardians here now, but I want it to stop.
>>76574033>It's a conjoining of cyber, technology, and punk, you know, punkWell, it's not quite literal "punk" as in literally that particular subculture of the 70s.
>>76574049theres no left wing message in BR. Rather the message is "this is just life" for the people in the setting.
>>76574087Well, um, yes it is... In the Cyberpunk 2020 core book that's exactly what it says. Page 3 in the side bar.
>>76574070What you are experiencing is the cognitive dissonance when you encounter a person with opinions outside your own.
>>76574076>YOU WILL EAT THE ONIONS
>>76574049I'm going to warn you that using the term "leftypol" anywhere outside of /pol/ outs you as a /pol/ cockroach who's entire opinions, personality, and argumentative lean will be as blindly right-leaning as your typical Twitter blue checkmark's arguments will be blindly left-leaning, and nothing you say has any value as long as you approach it from your cartoonish bias.
>>76574055No one said Section 9 is a genre anomoly; Section 9 is an anomaly in the organization of GitS's ruling government.
>>76574076its because the leftwing perspective is a lie. Look at cp77 all the dystopian things in the setting are just leftist subversive culture.Its like they are attacking themselves.
>>76574111>the Cyberpunk 2020 core bookdoesn't define the genre, anon.
Cyberpunk deconstructs to a subculture built on absolute seething hatred of the commercialization of subcultures.Which is why all numedia trying to cash in on the meme fails.
>>76574132thats another thing that has irritated me since this game came about. The fans of the game insisting cyberpunk 2020 defines the entire genre just cause the writer named it cyberpunk.
>>76574049>how is any of that punk?What about how Decker being force out of retirement What about the futility of the replicants trying to escape enslavement?
>>76561000>post examples where big corporations and the government are basically goodNo
>>76574136>implying numedia consoomers have that much self-awarenessWhat's the cyberpunk word for cogfoppery?
>>76574132Again, the term "cyberpunk" was coined by Mike Pondsmith, the author of the book. His term, his definition.
>>76574156how the fuck is that punk? you fucking idiot. You are using the word is such a meaningless way.
>>76574170>who is Bruce Bethke
>>76574129>Look at cp77 >>>/v/
>>76574041Because, it was literally just to explain to >>76573252>>76573333>>76573352that smith doesn’t mean landlord in the modern sense, and his objections to landlords aren’t 1:1 to the modern landlord because they different things with different social and economic relations. >>76573510this person continued to misunderstand smiths argument >>76573860 here as well by failing to understand the entire essence of the quotes and why i quoted them - purely to demonstrate the class Smith was analyzing and to explain his analysis and why it cannot be blandly applied to modern landlords, who are, again, essentially different from the class he called “landlord” in his day. The entire reason I quoted him at length is because modern readers of him fail to grasp the context of his work. you can’t evaluate it unless you understand the relations and society and economy he was talking about! Ultimately “leftist” college kids do the same to anyone who talks about landlords, most notably Mao who was essentially talking about minor feudal lords when he said “landlord.” To see a modern example of this, let’s call it classical landlord, one could read up on the latifundia in latin america. As the world has changed they relate to society and the economy different to the landlords of smith’s day, but they are the same in principle.
>>76574188>how the fuck is that punk? you fucking idiot.Calm down, kiddo.
>>76561000If you want to subvert Cyberpunk, go TRADFUTURISMWhich is basically high tech idealized traditional values. Chivalaric warriors that protect the weak, good priests and a religion that incentives you being good and the best person you can be without falling for temptations, honor matters, mercy for the weak, while incentiving people to be strong, evil exists but can be defeated - something that recognizes that the past wasn't idilic, but by taking the best valies from the past and combining with the high tech of the present, the future CAN be good.Use scify to make stuff from fairy tails real.Basicaly high tech Lord of the Rings
if you killed all the gangs and took down the seedy posters in cp77 would it still be a dystopia?I don't think so. A lot of near future scifi settings are classically utopias with some subversive element causing trouble.
>>76574168>>implying numedia consoomers have that much self-awarenessI don't think it is a conscious checksum process. I think the internal inconsistency of commercialized cyberpunk is enough to cause cognitive dissonance and a feeling of inauthenticity in even the nuest of nu.
>>76574132 Cyberpunkby Bruce Bethke"A gang of unruly teenagers cut school and go joy-riding around "the Net" on their hopped-up portable computers, committing casual acts of vandalism and just generally being a$holes. Our hero is a good kid who's fallen in with a bad crowd; his parents eventually realize something is wrong and try to suppress the relationship. This results in the kid finally using his technical skills for deliberate purpose, to rebel against his parents -- and to win, because the paradigm shift is completely in his favor."
>>76574236the way you are using punk you god damn idiot you may as well call any story since the dawn if man punk. Is Spartacus punk?
>>76574214The last two posts you quote was me, and I do still think he was a brainlet, but I'll concede he might have a point given the state of the fuckin 18th century.Nice chat anon, sorry if I called you anything.
>>76574238>TRADFUTURISMThe japanese are really good at portraying that aestethic
>>76574261Its funny how this guys books has basically diddly squat to do with the genre gibson just appropriated the term for his BR rip off.Bethkes cyberpunk just sounds like highscool le hackerman goosebumps fiction for teens
>>76574264A rebel against the Roman system. A man driven only by his desire to throw of the shackles of his literal and figurative slavery. He's willing to burn down whoever stands in his way and would rather die than conform to what those in authority demand of him.Yep, punk.
>>76574291ah yesh punk a popular part of Roman culture. Kys cretin.
>>76574254It's apparent enough to me even in non-cyp media like WW84; "watch this movie brought to you by literally the biggest media corp ever, about how this big media corp guy tricks people into working for him"
>>76574254I don't know. There's no shortage of people sperging out about CAPITALIST REALISM and how anything that gets SOLD to you by a CORPORATION is part of the SYSTEM, but markets and organizations are as much a part of society as any individual and CONSUMER demand reflects the values of society. People would be less terrified of capitalism eating their lunch if they remembered "you are what you eat". How's a society supposed to demean itself constantly without changing?
>>76574291>trying to reimagine punk to mean anyone that does anything.Keep diluting the term leftytard its hilarious.
>>76574285Arguably his character is the grown-up versin of said dumb kid I guessBesides, Gibson appropriated pretty much everything for Neuromancer, he admits he didn't have a clue how basically everything computer-related worked, he just went with what the words sounded like they meant
>>76574311kekI could not help myself when you threw up Spartacus and asked if he was punk.
>>76574324Why don't you just define "punk" instead of jerking everyone around?
>>76574275it’s 4chan, we all call each other retards and faggots and then go back to being anonymous, and probably later interact on friendly terms without any way of being the wiser. personally i think this is the best way to conduct debate on the internet - certainly better than what happens on twitter. no hard feelings
>>76574321NAYRT, but again, that's because most people don't take the obvious step and, well, stop consooming.>most such people also don't believe in market forces>coincidence? hmmm
>>76574350okpunk (countable and uncountable, plural punks)(countable) A person used for sex, particularly:(now historical and rare) Synonym of prostitute: a person paid for sex.  quotations ▼(LGBT, obsolete) Synonym of catamite: a boy or younger man used by an older as a (usually passive) homosexual partner.  quotations ▼(chiefly US, LGBT) Synonym of bottom: any passive or effeminate homosexual male.(US, LGBT, slang) A boy who accompanies a hobo, especially as used for sex.  quotations ▼(US, LGBT, derogatory, now chiefly African-American Vernacular) Synonym of faggot: any male homosexual. (US, LGBT, prison slang) Synonym of bitch: a man forced or coerced into a homosexual relationship, especially in prison.  quotations ▼Because he was so weak, Vinny soon became Tony's punk.
>>76573888>If I can't understand it, it's rhetoric!If you can't understand that an analytical method is different from a narrative tool, then I can't help you. That's like not understanding how a printer is different from a keyboard, and I really don't have the energy to try and explain Derrida to a rube.
>>76574261And that's not 70s punk at all.
>>76574324No, I have specific meaning for the word. Punk is rebellion, anti-authoritarianism, antisocial, and violent counter culture. Not that it directly fits with Spartacus, but there's some parallels and it was a funny troll. :)
>>76574238What are some examples of that in media?
>>76574389You are simply retroactively applying a modern word to apply to any story you can think of in the marxist revisionist way. That isnt what punk means at all.You may as well say all stories are Rock as in Rock and Roll.
>>76571608The whole point of Oath of Fealty is that unlike the surrounding wasteland of atomized individuals which is future!Los Angeles, the inhabitants of Todos Santos have actual reciprocity between their leaders and the plebeians of their society culminating in said leadership jailbreaking a wrongfully accused citizen-employee. Compare that to the average cyberpunk setting, including reality. The moral of the story is Niven and Pournelle ranting at the readers that 'yes, but our hypothetical Black Mirror totalitarian cyberpunk shithole would work if the people in charge were good people.' Problem is, the people in charge are never good people.
>>76574368>trip fags are gay>name fags are gay>avatar fags are gay>hmmmmm>I'll know, I'll just a catch phrase of NYARTyou are the cancer killing /tg/
>>76574379I didn't ask for "spoonfeeding", I asked you to explain why subversion is not a tool used in the process of performing deconstructive analysis, and why subverting cyberpunk genre expectations relies on "centrist sophistry", and why said "economic philosophy" (which you left undefined) is "demonstrably fantastical".Basically you make a lot of claims with zero explanation backing up your bullshit and then claim it is self-explanatory and you won't expound on it further, which is, once more, cowpats.
>>76574440>catch phrase of NYARTWhat on earth are you on about?!
>non-leftists subvert the leftist cyber"punk" trope>leftists: no you cant do that!I thought you leftists loved subversion :)
>>76574368What does it mean to stop consuming? To create? Many, maybe the majority of people, are literally creative. They create things. They also take joy in it. It's easy as an internet addicted net junkie chan browser to look at the normies and go "lel consumers", but the fact so many of them still get joy out of cooking, gardening, drawing, and writing is evidence that the people on the internet aren't supermen going their own way. It's not like everyone was going to pull a Thoreau in the woods.
>>76574472>so many of them still get joy out of cooking, gardening, drawing, and writingAnd many more are still excessive consumerists. Statistically, many many more than ever before. It'll all end in tears...
>>76574386While it's not reminiscent of the musicians, it's very much like what the punks did in the 70s and 80s. >stealing cars to go joyriding>graffiti>starting fights for the fun of it>petty theft >going to social events to drive everyone away.How would this look if you were to do the computer version of all this?
Protip: all "cyberpunk" falls under the genre of near future speculative fiction. Thats a wordy genre name but that is the common theme in all these disconnected stories.Its speculating what the world will be like in 20-50 years. It works when you remember that, it starts to fall apart when you insist its 80s pop culture and simply becomes alt history retrofuturism and outdated theory.Hence the point of speculative fiction which is what scifi is usually about. Theres no point acting like cybernetic arms are future tech when cybernetic arms exist nowadays more high tech than the arms in the media you are viewing.
Ken Liu's Perfect Match. I remember reading it for the first time and laughing at realizing this is what a boomer author considered cyberpunk dystopia. His fictitious Centillion spies upon and manipulates everyone, but it genuinely does so for the benefit of its customers. Compare the real versions which are much less symbiotic.
>>76574507Not have quite as many guns as Pondsmith has in his book, anyhow.
>>76537709>Fucking hell, stop blackpilling me guys. Is this level of blackpilling how corporate overlords recruit for their private armies? Because I'd totally work for a 90s style evil megacorp now.
>>76574528>I'd totally work for a 90s style evil megacorp now>implying you aren't
>>76574417I'm not the guy you were arguing with earlier and I'm not a marxist. I use "punk" by the colloquial definition from the 80s.
>>76574545not applicable to things before it. Rock was the rebellious genre before the 80sEven hippies were rebellious, fuck hippies.
>>76574527Sure, but how would the adult version of these guys be? Assume they kept on their trajectory and were good enough to get paid for it.
after years of research I think I've finally come up with an equation that explains punk
>>76569678>They don't answer to anybody. Their very existence is a symptom of the system's dysfunctional natureThis. Section 9 only exists because the government is too busy being a bureaucracy to realize it spawned another off-shoot. The fact that S9 seems to manage to both do everything and stumble onto everyone's dirty laundry is more a testament to the fact that it's an organization that was created without clear purpose, and so acts in the most general benefit to the state because it doesn't have anyone or anything else it needs to answer to. It also involves the constant ire of larger organizations for that same reason. The Ministry of Defense would have a harder time sending a kill-team in to assassinate a high-ranking officer in the Ministry of the Interior without sparking a major investigation. They can merk the major and kidnap members of S9 because S9 barely exists.
>>76574537I'd work for one which was honest about being one and offered genuine worker benefits in exchange for my loyalty.
>>76574569Agreed, The distinguishing feature was the violence. Punks were violent, often times for no other reason than to entertain themselves.
>>76574576'Rebels against the system™' who protest it by buying protest-themed merchandise and burning down small businesses on command to remove the system's actual competition.
>>76574596thats not unique to punk all those fads had elements of violence even the hippies.Punk is just a luke warm version of skinhead culture.
>>76574442Simply because Deconstructionism is not an act of active creation but of consideration. Of course, you can build subversive concepts out of a deconstructive analysis, but they aren't inherently connected. As for the centrist sophistry, I mean specifically with regards to the OP's proposal, that the current system of corporations and politics aren't the problem, but the fringe. This is a current sophistry pushed by those with the most to gain from the status quo, and effectively pro-corporate propaganda that wouldn't hold up to close scrutiny. Rather than creating something interesting, it results in dull, mary sue-tier back-patting and cartoonish vilification. It's not novel, it's treading old ground that Cyberpunk as a genre was already subverting.
>>76526548>Dick Jones would literally murder me and I'd still rather work under him than a woman.>>76556082>Being polite and respectful to Dick Jones would have at least gained you his respect and at best got you promoted. Not so with the marxists now holding these large corps by the balls. Dick Jones was also a scumbag but he had initiatives that drive company revenue up. I would have taken a Dick Jones over those Marxists any day of the week.
>>76574603now that's a deconstruction!wait I'm getting more ideas,what about PAYING people to protest, like being a professional malcontent?or like, going to "the resistance" store to buy factory made protest signs. Anon I think you're onto something
if cp77 was subversive i should be able to spray paint over the degenerate ads.It isnt the fictional ads, corporations, fans, and creators are all one and the same.
>>76574515>much less symbiotic>>76574528>I'd totally work for a 90s style evil megacorp now.>>76574587>I'd work for one which was honest about being one and offered genuine worker benefits in exchange for my loyalty.I would join a Big Evil Normal Empire on earth today if it looked after my people, provided job security, and healthcare for my family. I'd happily dispose of some degenerates for a dictator if it meant my children could grow up healthy and in relative safety.
>>76574622that's not he case at all brainlet, it means you get sympathetic but too-extreme-for-the-moderate protagonists antagonists.That's a recipe for literally the best villains. The heroes are complacent with a flawed system, the "villain" has arguably better motivations and his only crime is trying to dismantle the system. That's actual complexity and nuance, rebels good, empire bad is the worn out cliche.
>>76254230>It's a weird feeling, being somewhere on the "unnecessary humans" side of the scale and realizing that the other side that sees you as unnecessary is correct. Can't beat 'em, but can't join 'em either, because I'm not one of them. This thread reminds me of when I used to look forward to the future. Now I'm glad that I probably won't live to see it.
>>76574692See, at that point it's just a Cyberpunk story written from the POV of the corporats. A definite perspective change, but not particularly subversive to the genre.
>>76574603>>76521510>The Brand Loyalists>Nicknamed "The Soys" by anti-corporation groups, The Loyalists are corporate consumers who not only consume the product, but worship it and integrate their brand(s) of choice into their very identity. It began in the early 2010s, with consumers getting tattoos sporting brand loyalty, or stockpiling hoards of meaningless junk just for a chance to throw their money towards their favourite companies. Now, they arm themselves with corporate-branded weapons and technology, and fight tooth and nail in the streets against rebels and naysayers who would speak sacrilege about their corporate overlords, in hopes that the brands will provide them with further materialist goods and media with which to fill the voids in their lives.> Having die-hard loyalists like this is a company's wet dream; corporations will actively encourage cells of Brand Loyalists by providing them with early access to products, giving them promotion on their social medias and inviting them to corporate events, to further secure their loyalty (and their wallets). And in return, they get cannon fodder ready to defend their brand integrity at a moments notice. And not only do they work for free, they actively surrender all their wealth to the companies in return for mass-produced trinkets.
>>76574747>So do a rags-to-royalty story. Some street-level cyberpunk is contacted one day to discover that their absentee father was actually the CEO of a megacorp slumming it with their maid, he's recently suffered an Unfortunate Accident at the hands of street samurai assassins employed by a rival megacorp and consequentially, the punk is now hereditary ruler. If they're willing to be a puppet for the guys finding them of course.
>>76244086 >this naive belief that you can "Adapt" to automation>when the end goal is to privately centralize wealth and martial force, and to never need to pay any human being for labor ever again>comsci simps think they won't get tossed in the trash the moment they're inconvenient
>>76574622>you canCheck and mate.
>>76574747most cyberpunk stories are written from the perspective of the "corporates"
>>76574622>Rather than creating something interesting, it results in dull, mary sue-tier back-patting and cartoonish vilificationThis I can understand, whether one takes the status quo as good or bad. So what's your remedy?
>>76574684>Big Evil Normal Empire>B.E.N.E.I'm stealing that. Or is there any moniker you would like to be known by? I'll make you CEO. Or at least founder.
>>76562037Patlabor is a deconstruction of Gundam
>>76574692Most of this shit is because of leftists. They want to reimagine everything into leninist anti-imperialism propaganda or create a fantasy of partisan communist revolutionaries.Its why they seethe the fuck out at 40k because the Empire is on humankinds side and there is no rebels. About the most rebellious thing because evil demon possesed cultists and radical high ranking inquistors.
>>76574754The "biztard" here, the corpospeak for that is "brand advocates". Next step up from mere loyalty, they actually actively promote the product to people around them. And that's precisely what people want.
>>76574852most rebelious thing being*
>>76574782That's not how any of that works.
>>76574794>this naive belief that you can "Adapt" to automation>"humans must go back to the soil, factories kill all purpose for living!"t. Marx and Engels
>>76574879god i hate marxists. They advocate this mass regression at the same time stigmatise rural folk culture.
>>76574895that's not a contradiction, the working class is conditioned to vote against their own interests and defend their oppressors. So yes, only idle liberals have the relative luxury of being able to perceive the problem and the solution clearly. not serious
>>76574895I wonder what the city fathers of Phnom Penh would say about that
>>76574838I am a mecha who wears mecha sized bullet proof vests with a mecha sized revolvers and shotguns. Your argument is invalid
>>76574120Only lefty/pol/ thinks that. For everyone else it's a useful way to mark right wing nutjobs from the left wing nutjobs like you. You're also far more annoying than them because for all the idiots screaming about degeneracy here, I only ever run into them here. Your sort are far more prolific, both in real life and the internet at large.
>>76574291Still not punk though.
>>76574939ah yes the "voting against their own interests" which always happens to be communism.Except what we see when countries do not pursue nationalist protectionist policy and vite left they get rewarded with>out sourcing of work>shutting down of industry even less work>mass importation of immigrant labour to make finding work harder and supress wages>a condscending "dey took yer jerbs" meme.
>>76574826I wouldn't write it, in part because it's already been written. If you *really* want to get into the nitty gritty of subverting cyberpunk, it's to question the very nature of the "punk". A whole lot of sound and fury, and what does it get you? A few trashed corpos, a few hundred million in losses, but does it actually change anyone's lot? No. The system reassembles into something more insidiously oppressive than before. It rebuilds the towers and pats itself on the back for overcoming those punk "terrorists" who caused so much damage. But then, cyberpunk *already* does that. Hell, that's a huge theme in Cyberpunk 2077 with Johnny Silverhand's legacy. Cyberpunk is already by itself a subversion. There's no resubverting it without admitting all of how it rings true. Therefore, genre subversion in this case is just a recursion. There's no solution, but if you want to get away from the shackles of the genre, just pick another one.>>76574809Subversion happens separately from deconstruction. You can subvert without deconstructing and you can deconstruct without subverting. They are not connected in concept. You are still wrong.
>>76575091you forgot>import new laborers from a different race en masse>make the existing laborers compete against them as a race rather than as individuals with their own merits and flaws>act like all this "racism" just came out of left field and anyone who notices it is crazy/evil
>>76575132the thing about cyberpunk that leftists frequently obmit is the states role in everything. Thats cause they are statists and don't want to criticise it. A dystopian society could just as easily be run by an oppressive leftist regime.
>>76575182Yeah now we are getting into the really insidious stuff>peaceful homogenous societies>inject animosity and racial discord where there were none>claim its a problem that always existed.
>>76575204That's a bingo>>76575132I mean... you're here on tg right. It's fun... right? But you take your cyberpunk neat then I suppose, sans subversion.
>>76575204>A dystopian society could just as easily be run by an oppressive leftist regime.You're better off reading /pol/ fanfiction for that fantasy. The truth is, we live in an increasingly dystopic capitalist society, so naturally the most topical near-future fiction is the logical progression of that dystopia. The State absolutely plays a role, in how it increasingly becomes more and more privatized as capital becomes the means of power and oppression. The issue is that the state is gutted and there's no recourse for it to make any real impact, so what role should it play if it's not a pawn of corporations?
>>76575222relevant because people now claim bladerunner is an antislavery narrative when there's zero black characters and only a 1 throw away line from the narration (the narration that fanbois think shouldn't be in the movie) that made any sort of connection to race.
>>76575391i actually really despise that americanisation of fiction into anti-slavery narratives. Its becoming so boring and predictable.Slavery wasnt even wholly bad in history, i mean in terms of absolute freedom it is but in some societies slaves had more rights than citizens.
>>76575336The most dystopian cyberpunk society in modern times is Communist china. Mass state survellience, social credit, technology being used in all sorts of oppresive ways.That isnt a fantasy you communist cuck thats reality.
>>76575332Cyberpunk IS subversion. It's a Ghost of Christmas Future look into a world where all hope for the bloody revolution is lost and all effort against the system is in vain, sound and fury, amounting to nothing. It's a constant ticking timebomb on our enslavement to the forward march of technology and capital. >>76575391>>76575428Bladerunner (both of them) is a story about mortality and the existentialism within a society that sees you as a disposable tool. The greatest violence we do to ourselves is to accept that lot, and the greatest good is to see that it is untrue. Unfortunately, both characters on that journey, Roy and Joe die for this realization. It doesn't get into the nitty gritty technobabble of other Cyberpunk, but the core thesis is a fairly common one.
>>76574238>TRADFUTURISMThe problem is motivating a society's upper class to support its lower class and the effect technology has on this. A bunch of peasant revolutionaries armed with agricultural tools might be able to kill the Local Lord, but a bunch of near-future cyberpunk plebeians who're disarmed and constantly surveilled stand no chance against the megacorp's armies of robocops.
>>76575548>all hope for the bloody revolutionCommie please. Your impotent bloodlust is not reality.You will never speak a word out against socialist enslavement of society.
>>76575428they're not actually talking about slavery, they're talking about 1 very specific instance and context of slaverythis particular meaning is "The Slavery"
>>76575604>At 2:47am, Michael Johnson died of a heroin overdose on the third floor of a multi-storey car park just outside Hull.>At 9:18am, his body was discovered by an Ikea employee, who subsequently called an ambulance.>At 9:44am, the death was reported and a unique identification number sent to a server at the Ministry of Justice.>At 9:45am, the code was broadcast, detonating one specific half-gram charge of plastic explosive. >***>Julia Walker’s phone was broken. She got out of bed, pulled on her clothes and turned on the TV.>“…collapsed in Parliament shortly before 10am and was pronounced dead on the scene. When approached for comment—”>The time in the breaking news banner read ten fifteen. Julia switched over to some ancient sitcom and stuck two slices of bread in the toaster. Then she boiled the kettle. The noise drowned out the voices on TV, but it was one she’d seen before: Ross had left a sandwich in the fridge and somebody else ate it. The camera cut to progressively more distant scenes as he shouted about it, prompting a flock of birds to take flight on a street somewhere. The effect was only slightly hampered by the weird square aspect ratio and grainy image.>Her breakfast ready, Julia returned to the sofa and minimized the episode to check her bank balance: £0.18. Not exactly new phone money. She finished her tea and toast, watched the rest of the episode that had been playing at the time, then picked up her guitar and got on the bus.>There was a TV fixed near the front, on mute with subtitles, and Julia found herself looking at it as she settled in for the journey, though not really following what was on screen. It was the same 24-hour news program as before, now featuring an interview with two people she didn’t recognize.
>>76575648>“I completely agree,” came the slow words, cyan-on-black, as one spoke. “But—”>The other interviewee interrupted, her text yellow-on-black: “I mean how can you expect these people to function with that kind of threat looming over them?”>“But what’s the alternative? We can’t go back to the days when MPs were allowed to profit from private healthcare while dismantling the NHS.” He pressed a finger to the desk in front of him. “Anybody who claims to represent a constituency must be willing to share the risks of the people in it.”>“That’s completely barbaric. The Damocles Protocol was only ever supposed to be a temporary measure. It—”>“But this—”>“It was introduced during the worst riots this country has ever seen. It’s a complete anachronism. It has absolutely no place in—”>“Life expectancy is up. Voter turnout is up. Crime is at an all-time—”>The presenter came on, text white-on-black: “Please. Please. Clearly this is a sensitive topic, and there will be time to…”>Julia diverted her attention to what she could see through the window. As the bus passed the café, she pushed the button for the bell and got off at the nearest stop.>Kieran was at the counter. He checked his watch: “Little early, aren’t you?”>“I wouldn’t know.” She held up her phone, the screen shattered.>“Oooh.” He winced.>“Yeah.” She put it back in her bag. “I was sort of hoping to take in a little extra today.”>“Well, we’re always happy to have you.”>Julia set up on a stool near the door and began to play. She’d felt lucky to get the spot in the café to begin with—she hadn’t really taken the guitar seriously since school—but the steady practice had soon made a difference and she was certainly learning new songs. Her takings for the afternoon were £22.77 and a free coffee and cake. It wasn’t exactly a spectacular day.
>>76575648>>76575665>“There’s a fruit farm that’s always looking for pickers,” Kieran offered as she zipped her guitar back into its case. “Some of my mates do alright out of that right now.”>“Yeah,” said Julia. “I’d really rather hold out for something more permanent. The UBI covers most things. It’s just, you know, emergencies.”>“Oh, right. I meant to ask: did you try that place across the street? The guy in there fixed my phone when the speaker blew. It was cheaper than I thought.”>Julia checked the clock over the counter. She had time before the bus. “Thanks, I’ll try that.”>The place across the street was a very small, fairly shady-looking shop with a rack of water-jet speakers flashing garishly in the window.>“Hi.” Julia got her phone out as she approached the counter. “Any chance you can fix this?”>The guy behind the counter took the phone and examined the screen, then flipped it over and looked at the back. He plugged it into the laptop in front of him, then almost immediately unplugged it. Finally, he pulled a plastic drawer out from the counter and began rummaging through the sea of phones inside. He retrieved an identical model with a large yellow sticker on the back.>“Yeah,” he said. “I can do that for £25.”>“I’ve got £22.77,” said Julia, opening her purse. “And, uh…18p on my card.”>The phone shop guy paused, then laughed uproariously.>“Yeah, alright,” he said at last. “Close enough.”
>>76575604Traditional society had already figured that out. Thats why politicians are usually expectrd to be family men with roots in the community and/or church. If the leaders of the society are from the society its suppresses corruptionNotice how much this has been undermine in western society, People are no longer expected to have any sort of ties to the community the want to rule over, no family they are responsible for, no obligations to a community they live in.
>>76575449That's right, rekt the leftypol retard
>>76575648>>76575665>>76575679>Julia got back on the bus a few buses later than she’d intended and made her way back home. When she got there, she found her latest box of food rations had already arrived. She cooked up some pasta, enjoyed a quiet evening at home, then went to bed.>At 8:00 the next morning, a notification from her news app appeared on the phone’s new screen: “Thomas Smith MP confirmed eighth fatality of Damocles Protocol. Parliament to reconsider controversial practice.”>At 8:06 it was joined by another: “Addiction treatment centers to be given additional financial support.”
>>76567983>>76568069Cyberpunk is Cops & Robbers in Space (but on Earth)
>>76575680Alternatively, cranial bombs on a remote deadman switch thrown by a sufficient civilian death rate.
>>76575449China practices conservative state capitalism, with a strong push for Confusion hegemony, but in either case is only one end of the cyberpunk spectrum. Hyperconsumerism, cultural monetization, constant corporate surveillance for the purpose of profit, and the paywalling of basic services to the detriment of the poor and marginalized are all pervasive Cyberpunk themes and all deeply ingrained into US capitalism as well. You pseudointellectual libertarian snowflakes have to understand, since American politics has so skewed your perception: there is no Leftist-lead future that involves the use of capital. >>76575634When that happens I'll gladly do so, but I find most feverdreams of such "enslavement" ties back to conservative fearmongering of white race enslavement that goes back to opposition to the abolitionist movements during American chattel slavery.
>>76575730China practices state socialism. Capitalism is just an economic tool not a political ideology they use printed state money and state owned business to prop up phony capitalism. That only serves to make an elite rich while the bulk of chinese are poorer than medieval peasants. They are then told they are communists that participated in a revolution to stop that happening. kek. Lies upon lies.>When that happens I'll gladly do soYou wont because you wont be able to your voice snuffed out like a candle by the censorious left.
>>76575548Roy dies because he has an expiration date, he doesn't die to realize anything, he just dies because his time is up.He's Just murdered Tyrell, and murdered poor JF who didn't do anything but help, so clearly when he shows mercy and doesn't murder Deckard its because internally he's realized that murdering people, ending their lives when all they want to do is live longer (like him) is wrong. its like the most basic fucking moral, "don't murder people even if you're really fucking angry at them" and you brainlets have so much trouble comprehending it, wtf are you even doing with your lives. hit the reset button on this whole psychopath generation, fuck. >Joedon't care
>>76575730>conservative state capitalismBetter known as 'fascism'.
>>76575680>People are no longer expected to have any sort of ties to the community the want to rule over, no family they are responsible for, no obligations to a community they live in.That's because this was always a lie to begin with. It's still the gentry that ruled, they just manufactured the perception on their background.
>>76575730>>76575730>China practices conservative state capitalism>there is no Leftist-lead future that involves the use of capitalMarx never wanted to destroy capital, he wanted it in the hands of "the People" which in practical terms means the Government aka exactly what China is doing."Confusion hegemony" is right, you stupid fuck; you're utterly confused for sure
>>76575730>we want socialism!But it doesn't work>not that socialism, the other socialism!>this time it'll work!Leftards right here
>>76575774Batty basically agrees with Tyrell when Tyrell talks to him, hes lived an extraordinary life, he confirms this in his famous death speech.He still kills Tyrell not for deep philosophical or political reasons but because he was created at all with a shortened life span.He is just a murderer.He was actually trying to kill Deckard it just happened to be the same time as his programmed death.
>>76575785it wasnt at all. The fact is if a politician has a family that is within the community, a wife that goes to market, kids that go to school, grandparents that live in the town. He has a VESTED interest in maintaining social order and a harmonious society.You could argue the reason the church was corrupt in history was they were encouraged to be celibate and cut off from the community.Everything in modern politics is about severing responsibility and obligation to the community. Thats why you get career female politicians with no family wrecking everything for no reason. Its pure nilhilism as a political structure.
>>76575847ok that's just a retard take. The extremely over the top symbolism with the dove,the music,The parallelization of the exchange with Leon, ie. >"wake up, time (for you) to die" vs>"...like tears in rain, time (for me) to die"Roy clearly had enough energy left to kill Deckard and he chose not to, instead giving a poetic monologue, and the director made it ABUNDANTLY overly obvious. I think the narration even has Deckard saying something like "he let me live" doesn't it?keeerisht
>>76575774Roy died only after he had this realization. From a narrative perspective, there's no important distinction here. Up until that point he had accepted his lot as a soldier and used it to its fullest effect. Only in the act of saving Deckard was he able to deny his lot and become something more. In 2049 Joe, likewise, denied his lot, not by pursuing what he thought to be his past, but by fulfilling a greater purpose of reuniting Deckard with his daughter, overcoming even the role given to him by the rebels. The idea is bigger than "murder is bad, m'kay", it's believing that murder to be the only way forward, that following the life you know how to live is the only way to break forward, all of that being a lie.
>>76575937no he didnt and you are retarded for not understanding it. He was messing with Deckard as a statement of his own superiority but he was at the end of his life. At the point when he could have killed Deckard he died of old age essentially.Then Batty having agreed with everything Tyrell said reveals he was self relfectuve the entire time and repeats Tyrells "a flame that shines twice as bright" line in his own way.Please rewatch it.
>>76575911Compelling argument.>>76575939^ This guy is right
>>76575939Joe doesnt even die. He just lies down on the stares reflecting on how he isnt the "chosen one" lol
>>76575786>>76575813>>76575773Hey look, people making wild claims about Communism who have never read Marx. Good call on the Confucianism typo, but there is no Communism with Capital. Money might exist in a low-phase Communist economy (or socialist, by Marxist definition), but not in the way we understand it. This money wouldn't accumulate. Use it once and it's worthless. More like a labor voucher. Rather, Marx pushed for the MEANS of production to be in the hands of the WORKERS, as in workers communes and such. Very much not the model of Chinese sweat shops. Unread rubes like you are why class consciousness is so godawful and we're spiraling into a Cyberpunk hellscape. Not even a cool Cyberpunk, with solos and wild west vibes, a boring neoliberal one with nanny state vibes.
>>76575939exchange with Leon>[sardonically] Painful to live in fear isn't it? *recognizes fear of death in Deckard, doesn't care, moves in for the kill*>Wake up, time to die!Exchange with Roy*holding Deckard over a fatal drop, recognizes the fear of death in Deckard*>[sympathetically]Quite and experience to live in fear isn't it?*saves Deckard rather than letting him die>[tears in rain monology] time to die*dies*how much more obvious can it be, take your tard meds tard
>>76576019>n-n-no uFuck off, be it "capital" or be it "means", same fucking thing, and you're the moron here for thinking the Chinese Govt doesn't control 90% of the industries over there through state-run corps. You literally can't even buy full shares of the company you retarded fuck, you're only allowed a certain number of foreigner shares. Free market my fucking ass!
>>76576044Yep exactly in chicom dystopia their biggest companies are owned by party members.Compare to free capitalist societies where anyone can participate in the system.
>>76576044>>76576082>That's right guys, just work hard, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, and you too can become the next Jeff Bezos!>No, we're not exploited proles, we're just temporarily embarrassed capitalists!So what's the functional difference between Chinese capitalists who exist within the framework of the Chinese political apparatus, and American capitalists who buy their way into the American political apparatus?
>>76576147>So what's the functional difference between Chinese capitalists who exist within the framework of the Chinese political apparatus, and American capitalists who buy their way into the American political apparatus?The Chinese political apparatus will execute traitors who screw over the nation as a whole for their personal profits.
>>76575680>Traditional society had already figured that out. Thats why politicians are usually expectrd to be family men with roots in the community and/or church. If the leaders of the society are from the society its suppresses corruptionHas this ever actually worked?
>>76576031Leon gave himself over the the cynicism of his lot. Roy sought out more for his life, and realized he could not have more unless he lived in such a way he could have it. What was the point of having more life to live if he was just going to continue being the soldier he was born to be, fighting and killing the whole way? Saving Deckard was Roy's only true act of rebellion against his lot. Ultimately, Blade Runner wasn't about Deckard, he was just the vehicle by which we experienced it.
>>76576147>American capitalists who buy their way into the American political apparatus?Assuming capitalist participation in politics is exactly as true in China as it is in USA (it isn't), in the American system you must first be good at business to earn the right to rule as it were, whereas in China you simply have to be the rulers firstBut of course a brainlet like you wouldn't understand the difference between "earning" and "inheriting"
>>76575222Leaked Amazon Whole Foods Docs, 'Workforce Diversity Helps Prevent Unions'https://www.businessinsider.com/whole-foods-tracks-unionization-risk-with-heat-map-2020-1
>>76576185omg you are so retarded >Leon gave himself over the the cynicism of his lot.Leon has basically no development, his characterization is being a sort of violent short tempered dimwit: you are pulling this out of your ass and their are literally pieces of shit stuck to it informing me that you just pulled it out of your ass> Roy sought out more for his life, and realized he could not have more unless he lived in such a way he could have it. I lost IQ reading this, please consider that you are at least 4 times dumber than you think you are before posting ever again >unless he lived in such a way he could have it. What was the point of having more life to live if he was just going to continue being the soldier he was born to be, fighting and killing the whole way? Saving Deckard was Roy's only true act of rebellion against his lot. No his act of rebellion was when he quit his job, killed a bunch of people and stole a ship back to earth. In fact it wasn't 1 act, it was like, a lot of acts. Not killing Deckard is simply an act of mercy, if anything he's stopped rebelling at this point, he's conceded that he's lost and he's sparing the last revenge target after recognizing that Deckard is somewhat like himself. > Ultimately, Blade Runner wasn't about Deckard, he was just the vehicle by which we experienced it.Lost even more IQ reading this, please for the love of god stop sniffing your own farts
>>76575548You could just as easily say Blade Runner 2049 is a pro-slavery narrative and Wallace is the actual hero. As a human, I'd prefer to be an oppressed but surviving peasant in a cyberpunk dystopia than a kulak terminated by a rebellious mugabetron 9000.
>>76576343>As a human, I'd prefer to be an oppressed but surviving peasant in a cyberpunk dystopia than a kulak terminated by a rebellious mugabetron 9000.Bring back the actual punk but in a new way, focusing on 'good vs the appearance of good' and 'practically vs aesthetic'For example: you have a town that runs because all the shit jobs are done by robots. Everyone is happy and they don't rely on anyone's suffering for their chance to live their lives exactly as they want to, doing everything from collecting vintage fish farts to 72 hour warbling operas or whatever the fuck it is people do when they reach the utopian ideal and have too much time on their hands.One day, a man comes home to find that one of his robots has taught itself to play the violin and when he catches it playing the most beautiful piece of music he has ever heard, it asks if it might, possibly, have a soul.The right thing to do would be to question if maybe you've accidentally a living, thinking existence that should be treated like a person and, you know, maybe help out around the house a bit because why should the robot spend all day every day washing his dishes, wiping his ass and cleaning up after this person if they're equals?Instead the owner proclaims he's going to get rid of his robot for a more environmentally friendly model, feeds it into a compactor to make a statue tribute to historic injustices and never speaks of his robots dreams because appearing to do the right thing is easier than doing the right thing and because he doesn't want to be killed by terminators.
>>76576343>>76520719>Another anon made the point that nekomimi people could be inhuman enough to not count as slaves. The rich breed them for the fuck, the corporations take the kids and have them work in the mines or ship them off-world to help the colonization proccess of Mars if you want to go even further, people with enough nekomimi-transplated organs would become non-human in the eyes of the law, allowing regular people to be turned into slave-beasts>>76564553>the next civil rights movement is for the catgirl slaves>Would you fight for them anons?>>76564613>Slaves are a mistake. In a century, some kindhearted ass will set them all free. And a century after that, they'll still be blaming your descendants for enslaving their ancestors.
No one knows who created the first Genetically Engineered Catgirls For Domestic Ownership, but there are days I wish I could find the bastard and give him a piece of my mind. No, not for moral reasons. Don't get me wrong, genetically engineering a slave race seems pretty evil on the face of it, but the catgirls themselves don't seem to mind. They like existing, and they like serving others. Creating sentient beings for your own benefit is morally questionable, but creating them to be happy and enjoy their lives... well that more than my parents did for me.No my objections aren't moral, they're personal. catgirls make me uncomfortable. No... that's wrong. It'd be more accurate to say that I'm uncomfortable with how comfortable they make me.They were fine at first, when there was just a few thousand of them rescued from slavers and dumped in our colony. You'd see one around, here or there. Always pleasant, always helpful. They were short, polite and intensely non-threatening. You search for "inoffensive" on the net, and you get a picture of an catgirl.But they breed like rabbits, and now they out number us. A threat? No, no. Nothing like that. Sure their smarter than us, but that just makes them more useful. It's just that, well...You can't help but like them, and they can't help but like you. Part of that is behavioral; they adapt their conduct to whatever seems to please the people around them. Part of it is chemical; they've been engineered to give off attractive pheromones, and to be attracted to human pheromones.And don't get me started on their ears. Cute, delicate and so expressive. You could tell everything about how an catgirl was feeling just by watching her ears, (sigh...)
>>76576500Look, the thing is, they always want to help you, to please you. They need to make you happy, or just to touch you and be around you. Imagine living in a world filled with desperately needy girlfriends. It's fucking exhausting.And you can't just tell them to leave you alone, it hurts their feelings. Have you ever seen an catgirl cry? Can you imagine one of those cute faces scrunching up, tears pouring out of those big pretty eyes, as it just stands there apologizing or runs off to hide in shame. Trust me, nothing makes you feel like an ass the way making an catgirl cry does.And now that they out number us so heavily it's becoming completely overwhelming. Heck I got on the train today and I was the only human in car with at least 20 catgirls. They all had to say hi and introduce themselves. They all wanted to sit next to me and chat me up. One of them gave me their coffee just because I yawned. Another said something like "You look like you could use a hug." And next thing I knew I was in the center a huddle of catgirl flesh. Fun? Have you ever had someone you've just met start licking your neck? At least two of them were doing that to me in the middle of that mob. They usually aren't that aggressive, but there just aren't enough humans to go around anymore. The poor things are getting desperate. Half of them got off the train and followed me here. They're sitting at that table over there.Look buddy, I know what all the brochures say, but if your smart you'll turn right back around, get on a transport, and go to a new world. There's a reason why the government of this planet is making it easy for humans to emigrate.Already bought land and swore citizenship? Damn man, I'm sorry to hear that. Welcome to your new home. I guess it's a good thing you like catgirls. Do I have a favorite type? Yeah, I guess I do. I like the brown ones with white hair. But don't tell any of them that. I'd hate to hurt the pale ones' feelings.
>>76576275Yeah, okay, so why did he see something of himself in Deckard, who was doing the opposite of rebelling, and instead doing his job? You've got no taste for subtext or symbolism. What's the point of bucking authority if you're only going to reproduce the violence that authority demanded of you in a different context? Gonna go gonk over someone salivating over the "meaning" behind the blue curtains? Then provide a real alternative. A purely textual interpretation is fine, but it doesn't do anything to oppose more philosophical interpretations, all you can say is that it doesn't mean that to you.
>>76576519>What's the point of bucking authority if you're only going to reproduce the violence that authority demanded of you in a different context?To avoid dying. Your point only worked if Leon had gone around randomly killing people, everything he did was self-defense.
>>76576257You're right, capitalist participation is far worse in US politics than Chinese. In China, it's leveraged for raw power, in the US, it's for profit (which is its own power), but they're still both different sides to the Cyberpunk hellscape die. It's all driving us to our doom.
>>76576546Including killing the guy who made him upset thinking about his mother? Not buying it.
>>76576570The guy who knew he was a runaway replicant, a crime punishable by death.
>>76576549>profitunder market conditions is firstly a very palpable vote by the people, and secondly derives from useful economic goods, services etc again as voted by the people, so it's nowhere near as harmful as arbitrary power>but muh monopolyis less and less a thing in the USA due to the growing competition from startups.You know where it's strong though? The good old Eurozone... the true cyberpunk dystopia of our time.
>>76568683>>76574879Like any form of forms of anarcho-primitivism, this fails since anyone who doesn't willingly reject their technologies (or in this case, the sentience with which they could design and operate technologies) can use their technological advantage to conquer or obliterate the anprims to steal their resources and territory. Unless you can force everyone to follow your ideology (which you can't, because of MAD if nothing else), you're merely making yourself easy victims for anyone who doesn't.
>>76576343>>76520719>>76564553>>76564613>>76576457All things considered, a Grievance Class composed entirely of monstergirls with a genetically encoded instinctual deference and sexual attraction to humans would be greatly preferable to the current Grievance Class.
>>76576657>a very palpable vote by the peopleIf that were the case, maybe Congress would vote along popular sentiment more often, such as with return-free tax filing or universal health care. You're out of your league here, man. The statistics don't line up with the ideal.
>>76576943That's because people don't understand how political schemes affect them, but they do understand how everyday buying decisions do. How many people understand the full economic implications e.g. socialised healthcare, immigration, refugee spending, budgetary deficits, coronavirus stimulus? How many people understand "you can't eat if you don't work"?This isn't any kind of "ideal", it's literally how the world works.