How do I portray angels as creepy and unsettling while still keeping them benevolent?
>>58996490Just play them as straight biblical angels. During the visions at Fatima, Portugaul, an angel (in the guise of a human form, which they don't actually have [no bodies]) straight up jabbed a flaming sword at the children and said "REPENT, REPENT, REPENT!". They reported that it felt like the word was painfully carved on their rib-cages, and that God's love emanated from the carving so strongly it was physically painful; or maybe the word was "sacrifice", I don't remember.
Remember that capital G Good isn't necessarily what normal mortals would consider good, and that these things are harbingers of absolute purity and morality. What may be a completely negligable sin to your or me will be something worthy of incineration to the angel.
>>58996490It's easy. Just copy jewish/christian angels. See>In the last heaven Moses saw two angels, each five hundred parasangs in height, forged out of chains of black fire and red fire, the angels Af, "Anger," and Hemah, "Wrath," whom God created at the beginning of the world, to execute His will. Moses was disquieted when he looked upon them, but Metatron embraced him, and said, "Moses, Moses, thou favorite of God, fear not, and be not terrified," and Moses became calm. There was another angel in the seventh heaven, different in appearance from all the others, and of frightful mien. His height was so great, it would have taken five hundred years to cover a distance equal to it, and from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet he was studded with glaring eyes. "This one," said Metatron, addressing Moses, "is Samael, who takes the soul away from man." "Whither goes he now?" asked Moses, and Metatron replied, "To fetch the soul of Job the pious." Thereupon Moses prayed to God in these words, "O may it be Thy will, my God and the God of my fathers, not to let me fall into the hands of this angel."
Make the angels resentful of being supplanted by humans. Or, make a prophecy that humans will be supplanted by a third race of more perfect beings.
>>58996490just make them so that they play by the rules no matter what. this can be creepy, but as long as they never betray you by breaking the rules, they can stay angels no matter what they do to carry out those rules. helps if they have an unwavering moral compass to keep them from straying in morally gray areas. and make sure they have some holy fire to back all of that up.so basically:angels are always right*they'll never let you down in the sense that they'll always do the Angel Thingextremely powerful BUT they ONLY turn that power towards doing Angel Thingscan judge you instantly and know how worthy you are, and you know it and they know it and they're going to work at Angel Things for the whole of existence and you're going to live a measly little life and fall hard and often*this always right part is the kicker, and the manipulation of angels can be a big plot pointthats pretty much as far from humans as you're going to get right there. hell thats pretty much a great old one, just serving a greater and older one.
>>58996490Play them straight. Most average joes seem to find deeply religious people kind of creepy and unsettling even if they're good intentioned, while Angels are those traits played up to a robotic degree.
>>58996490Read In Nomine for inspiration. There are several choirs (think "races" in d&d) of Angels that can definitely be spooky. Seraphim in particular are pretty neat for this sort of thing. Elohim and Kyriotates are pretty neat too. There are also plenty of Lawful Good =/= Lawful Nice Archangel characters written for you to get inspiration.>All of creation called the Symphony on account of when God sang the world into being>Angels all have a Resonance, a unique way of perceiving the rest of the Symphony. Basically acts as a super-sense>Seraphim have a Resonance that perceives lies as physically painful discordant chords played in the Symphony of reality, like nails on a chalkboard. Subsequently they cannot *stand* hearing lies.>Elohim are basically Angel-Spock, trying super hard to be objective, logical, and clear minded, acting without prejudice. Their Resonance picks up the emotions other characters are feeling, and with effort they can read peoples' emotions so well that they can be Chessmaster types who literally know exactly what they're going to do at any given prompt>Kyriotates' Resonance lets them possess the bodies of multiple people at the same time, letting one character function as a gang of individual characters. Enter scenes where you interact with a group of people finishing eachothers' sentences because they're being possessed by a hivemind-AngelAnd then there's Archangels of varying stripes who could very easily be spoogy yet benevolent dudes.
Give them colossal power, and make them operate like dispassionate and purely logical enforcer automatons. They can see beyond what mortals see, but it is so far beyond that it is disconnected from the smaller concerns and nuances of humanity or the individual.You want them on your side, but when you see them it frightens you because there's the chance they might be coming for you or someone you know.
>>58997125For example,>Jordi, Archangel of Animals>Expressedly forbids his angel underlings from putting animal needs below human needs, so you can get some innawoods angels balancing the needs between nature and humanity>Dominic, Archangel of Judgement>Full on Lawful Neutral Old Testament Spanish Inquisition Witch-Burning motherfuckerOverall bretty kewl system.
Like others in this thread have said, original angels are creepy and alien looking enough.There's a reason that when they showed themselves on earth they had to yell "DO NOT BE AFRAID"
>>58996490Horrifying tentacled monstrosity that form the shape of wings wreathed in light, these beings carry with them an intense aura of wrongness that make you unable to fully comprehend their shape while simultaneously experiencing an intense religious fervour. They speak using whatever language your characters can understand but pronounce it strangely and in bizzarre voice that constantly shift and change, the only thing they scream out is verse from the fantasy version of the bible and strange words that ring in the ears. Make them basically a form of psychic parasite that feed on religious people and that god is actually just a mental projection created by them
I'm glad I found this edition of the creepy angels thread. What are some abilities you can angels to emphasise the 'Good is not nice' quality? I had an idea for one of them being able to use Holy Light to link people in a hive mind with its only priority as following the angel's orders. This Light could also spread by eye contact, which would create its own dangers in the middle of a demonic invasion.
>>58996743>His height was so great, it would have taken five hundred years to cover a distance equal to it, and from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet he was studded with glaring eyesJesus fucking Christ
>>59000450And that's not even large among angels. 500 parasangs is a normal angel.Hadraniel is 600,000 parasangs tall. And Sandalphon, known as "the tall angel", is taller than Hadraniel by the same height as Samael - a 500 year journey. Samael would need to stand on Hadraniel's head to reach Sandalphon's height.
>>58996743>That last angelhe sounds like a big guy
>>58996490Aberration, or Outsider with a Aberrant Qualities (su) Good Subtype, Always Exrtreme X good alignment, Aura of Awe before good aligned creatures and madness before evil.May have the Extradimensional template from Kobold Quarterly.
>>58996743Where can you read about these things? I mean I'm pretty sure this stuff isn't in the regular ol' bible that you find at motels or got when you go through confirmation.
>>59000525Isn't Sandalphon also the "friend of mankind" in the kabbalah? Like Metatron is "the voice of god"
>>59000567He's certainly meant to be one of the angels that is closest to humanity. He's meant to preside over the Sephira Malkuth which represents/ gives substance to the physical plane
>>59000410God, and Angels by extension, really don't do the mind control thing if you're trying to keep with the Christian/Jewish theme. Even though God is entirely willing to dole out punishment, he does not take away will directly. Even with Adam and Eve they were always free to choose.
>>58996490Portray them as autistic:> Overly set on doing what they're programmed for, freaking out when you dare go against how they think things should be. > Bad at social relations, clearly foreign to normal human interaction.> Highly skilled and knowledgeable in strange or niche areas of expertise, but complete failures in basic skills.
>>59000556Jewish meaning Pharisaical mystical texts. The Zohar mostly, but /x/fags love is, so watch out.
>>58997072>while Angels are those traits played up to a robotic degree.I wouldn't say robotic. There are plenty of Biblical passages where they show intense emotions. There's one I'm thinking of (can't remeber the book or chapter, just that it was OT) where an angel is weeping over the judgement of Jerusalem.
>>58996490Was actually thinking of making a similar thread.How would you (/tg/) portray Lucifer? I tried to research his reasons for starting his revolt in heaven, to better get an idea of his personality, but the original "source" doesn't appear to characterize him much besides "he opposed god".
>>59001112Crap, you're right. I was leaning into the Supernatural angle of angels reverting to dickishness without G-d to guide them but even there they still need someone's permission to possess them.Well I'll shuffle that idea over to any unspecified light based eldritch creatures I make.
Essentially a being that acts destructively but with no malice
>>59001721I wouldn't portray him so to speak, I'd make him a presence that was so bright a person couldn't bear to look at it. "Lightbringer" and all that. Maybe other angels would be the same or maybe they'd dim themselves for the sake of the viewer, but Lucifer would be proud and unapologetic.
>>59001721>>59002158>person couldn't bear to look at it>proud and unapologeticSo essentially a flasher on the New York subway system
>>59002405Why serve in heaven, when you can whip your dick out in front of terrified commuters?- Milton
>>59000556That particular description is from a text called "The Ascension of Moses" you can read a bunch of texts like it in the book "Legends of the Jews."
>dude angels were REALLY epic spooky lovecraftian Thank you, Reddit. Now tell us more about how boobplate is unrealistic.
>>59003295Wasn't /tg/ making threads on both of those before reddit even existed?
>>59001721Lucifer is not a angel.In ancient sources there's no angel opposing god either.See >>58996743Samael is pretty much the real "satan", and he only followed God's orders
>>59003295Grow up kid, not everyone that disagree with you is a redditor
>>58996490Like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qrp3P7wWds
>>59004199Very interesting. Much appreciated anon.
>>59004199If not an angel, what was Lucifer exactly?
>>59004703not that anon, but a king I think.So sayseth this sketchy sourcehttp://www.illuminatiorderoto.com/lucifer-is-not-a-fallen-angel-in-original-hebrew-t.php
>>58997443>First angel is sent to Earth to perform some task>Has to tell some man to do some stuff for God, because He wants it done by this man in particular>Arrive on Earth>Start to tell the man his task>Drowned out by shrieking humans in the middle of a busy marketplace>"Whoa. Okay, this isn't what I was expecting. Lord Almighty, the lungs on these people.">Lets them scream it out for a few seconds, then takes a deep breath>"CHILL."
>>59002096>G-dI'm given to understand that He hasn't smitten anyone for typing "God" in quite some time. Also, I've noticed that's something pretty common for people of the Hebrew faith in my online gaming groups. Is it really about the disrespect, or is there some other reason for doing the "G-d" thing?
>>59000527For the LORD
>>59005082Lol dude, I just felt like doing it that one time. I guess it'd be about respect for jews.
>>59005082Overly literal interpretation of "thou shalt not take the lord's name in vain" (God isn't a name, it's a cosmic position. His name is Yahweh, which it's forbidden to just say in judaism, they have to replace it with Adonai or HaShem.)
>>59001721Lucifer appoints himself the judge of all existence, finding it wanting. He is spiteful, resentful and nihilistic. He corrupts that which God loves out of spite.Basically /r9k/ or a school shooter, on a celestial level.
>>59005082It's just people rattling their tits and pretending to be Jewish even though they've not set foot in temple in eons. Wanna know the easiest way to never see a Jew again? Give him a bar mitzvah.
Although it's been alluded to by many posters already, I'd like to repeat more clearly the difference between Jewish and Christian angelology.In mainstream Judaism, angels are automatons with no free will. They cannot rebel, and each one perfectly follows God's will, including Satan - the angel whose job it is to report sins to God. Angels can only do the specific job assigned to them, and if more than one job is required, God will send more angels, like the three who met Abraham. (Gabriel's only mission on Earth was to destroy Sodom, for example). The reference to the Morningstar being cast down from Heaven in Isaiah 14 is interpreted as a prophecy about the king of Babylon.In mainstream Christianity, angels have free will and can rebel from God. Revelations mentions that Satan became prideful, was cast out of God's domain, and took a third of the angelic population with him; passages like those in Isaiah are interpreted as referring to Lucifer/Satan. As fallen angels can have no Savior, they will burn in Hell; faithful angels can stay in Heaven without the need for a Savior, as they're supernatural beings with no original sin.Concepts related to this divide are those of original sin and Hell. Christians believe that original sin is a sin that cannot be atoned for without the divine blood sacrifice of Jesus, and that every Human therefore deserves to be tortured for all eternity, no matter how sin-free they live their lives. Jews believe that the consequence of Adam and Eve's actions were more physical in nature - removal from Eden, painful childbirth, having to labor for food, etc - and that every Human is always free to choose faithfulness to God, life and good over evil without the need for blood sacrifices. Jewish Hell (after the idea was introduced by extensive Greco-Roman contact, as the religion didn't have a Hell before that) is seen as a temporary separation from God, where the deceased contemplates his shameful earthly sins.
i've done this in a homebrew game OP. Here is how I did it. I described angels as having spheres of influence, ranks and names of Import. Stablishing their power and role witha brief description of how the world was built. Then I had the lowest sphere, lowest rank angel appear. So low in fact that it was simply know as 'angel' it was a sphere composed of rotating rings of gold the size of a baseball. Tiny and Insignificant. It told the paladin that his charge was to eliminate the orc population of a city they were approaching. The party deliberated on this. The angel took such deliberation as open defiance and proceeded to go into the city incinerating all orcs within. And also any that stood on its way. The party's wizard tried to imprison the angel and was instead turned inside out. The warrior tried to attack it, only to have his sword and armor melt, killing him. The paladIn prayed, and said that he would carry out the angel's request. it was then that it stopped, the party found themselves back to normal on the outskirts of the city. the angel had one thing to say: "Do." The party proceeded to kill all otcs in the city anyone that was not an orc that Interfered turned to ash. in this setting orcs are inherently evil, while not banned from cities they are ussually the underworld types. But not all evil is created equal some are merely kleptos or compulsive liars. In the eyes of this insignificant angel it did not matter.
>>58996490Make them beautiful but devoid of any normal human behaviour and expression, such as facial grimaces, different voice tone, normal body language or even eye contact. Basically perfectly proportioned automatons that move and act in an inhumanely coordinated, efficient fashion that assures fulfilling their orders ASAP. If the order is "tell person X that I order them Y" they will just approach the person and say the message - in a perfectly clear yet creepy monotone - then take off without stopping for any questions or whatnot.If their order is to "slay every man in city Z" they will surround the city and slowly tighten the circle towards the centre, paying absolutely no attention to women nor children but killing every man they meet - no battlecries or excessive violence, just quick, clean thursts/slashes into vital spots, then off to another guy.Keeping it calm, graceful and silent all the way to the end.
>>59001721Read the In Nomine books, by SJG. Especially the Game Master's Guide. The setting does a really good job of giving you a toolkit to customize your own setting to be the flavor of religious you want, and goes into detail regarding Lucifer in many roles.
Like this.Set them up as upholders of the Law.
>>59005418>Angel's only purpose is to get the party to do a thing>Essentially functions as GM railroadingYour game sounds like shit breh
>>59005596no the angel's purpose was to show how the most insignificant angel was impossible to stop. And how they think and see things. Later in the campaing the party gets a Harmony angel and they are trying their fucking hardest to not fight amongts each other as they complete a mission for which the angel is 'helping' them. Similarly the encounter a slave master who has a penance angel nearby. And you can see how it gets. The world has these hallowed messengers and their presence is terribly unsettling. They do not look like humans or anything that can be easily identified. Their power over their sphere is absolute, and their point of view is beyond comprehension. When an angel gives you a gift you have to wonder about it. The players liked it. The orc thing was essentially the tutorial, so yes it was on rails.
>>59005203>>59005168 Can confirm.>>59005284Nah, some of us on 4chan actually are, even if we’re bad and only keep on high holidays.>>58996743Just gonna appreciate folks are talking about Moses on 4chan during passover...fuck I want it to be 7:30 so I can break this holiday. I can take no more of all this fucking matzoh amd want a pizza.
>>59005539Thank you for the suggestion anon! Wasn't expecting such a specified system.
>>59006151god I fuckin' love matzoh ball soup, shitty salty chewy hot GOOD
>>59006184I played In Nomine for years, so I'm already ass deep into all nines of kinds of religious bullshit and angel/demon concepts.The system has a strange history. The initial writer back in 1995 wanted to make it a WoD knockoff with celestials, and wrote this idiot grimdark concept that clashed with the rest of the material in the book, that being a secret cold war between Heaven and Hell, fought on earth.Once a line editor came in and fired the guy, the books got a lot better, with the GMG being excellent advice for the many ways you could run the game, with dozens of alternate religious modifiers (want a campaign where the Evangelicals were right? here's what it'd need), and what changing the 'brightness' and 'contrast' of the setting to your tastes. (Brightness = Are The Good Guys Winning Or Losing? Contrast = How Gray Is The Setting, Who IS The Good Guys?)Want to go as far as a Tyrant Heaven and Freedom Fighter Hell? Sure. And at the heart of it, Lucifer is an excellent game device when used rarely, since he is the 'God' analog for Hell, but one you can actually meet and speak with.(Don't meet and speak with him. Even if you're a demon. Never ends well. Lucifer at base does not want anything good for Hell as much as he doesn't want anything good for Heaven, Earth, and Existence.)
>>59000556>Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “ ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’who was, and is, and is to come.”If you dig deep enough, you’d find quite some descriptions.
>>59005781>Later in the campaing the party gets a Harmony angel and they are trying their fucking hardest to not fight amongts each other as they complete a mission for which the angel is 'helping' them.>You literally have to send in GM-prescribed assistance to have the party not start arguing and fighting with eachotherAgain, your game sounds like shit breh
>>59006329wow it's almost like it can be good since from what I take away from it, the characters sound like they'd have to roleplay "I fucking hate you but if I don't watch my mouth around Ninetywings here, I may end up shitting magma and puking locusts, FUCK THIS MAKES ME ANGRY" and you can have some comedy and tension from the conceptoh wait you just want to roll dise and do damage, right?
>>59006191Well, the soup is divine, its just the bread itsef. Or most other things made from Matzoh meal. Except for bissli
>>59006380You're not fooling anybody into thinking you're a different person breh
>>59006293In Nomine has a decent spread of Weird Fucking Angels. Seraphim are serpents with six wings and six eyes. Cherubim are beast angels with fucked up chimera forms or whatever surreal concept fits with who they serve. Ofanim are great wheels of fire, wings, and eyes. Elohim are perfect, featureless humanoids of varying substances. Malakim are demonic looking angels of darkness with obsidian wings, since they're the demon-hunting types. Lilim are a slight edge case where none of them are born in Heaven - they can only come from the demons made by Lilith in Hell, who choose to redeem. Kyriotates are horrifying FEAR NOT tier masses of limbs, eyes, clouds, tentacles, animals, and objects. Mercurians are the stereotype, being humans with wings, though they still have to work hard to actually comes across AS human. Grigori (the Watchers of the Flood legend) are holy giants with a third eye.>>59006432I am, actually, since that's me, the In Nomine talkin' dude.
>>59006529No wonder all the angels had to say “Do not Fear” whenever they show up. Anyone would have to get people to stop shitting themselves if they show up like that.
>>59006546Forgot to say Lilim look like demonic woman-things with horns. And yeah, in the game, if an angel or demon assumes their divine form and a mortal is able to perceive it, they usually have to roll for fear - Kyriotates (and their Fallen counterparts) force an automatic one, since they're just too fucked in form for even other angels to be entirely comfortable around them.
>>59005596To be fair, any direct interaction with your god is going to be a form of "railroading". When a supreme power gives an order it's not a "maybe if you want to" it's a "you will act or you will suffer".
>>59006329first response was okay, the bait in this one was too obvious.i wouldn't want to play in this guy's campaign either, but this is the key phrase your autism can't handle: >The players liked it. if the players liked it, the GM did a good job. all your whining about how other people shouldn't enjoy things you don't enjoy is fruitless.
>>59005418The worst gming
>>58996490Make them a little too friendly, to the point that you start to get uncomfortable with how friendly they are.
>>59001721I'd read somewhere that a satan is basically the old term for a devil's advocate, taking the opposing position for the sake of the argument, not necessarily holding that position. So you could go with a Lucifer as the mightiest of Angels, capable and willing to offer opposition to God. There's no Supreme Evil, so Lucifer is the stand in, allowing people to see the difference between good and evil. Thus letting them "See the Light", earning his title of Lightbringer.
>>58996490Angels are harbingers of absolute morality and total purity, their sole focus in thought word and deed is their specific mission, every angel is given a specific mission, known only to it and god or gods or capital G God, which defines the absolute totality of it's purpose in existence. These beings only act when given direct command to do so, and very seldom appear in mortal realms, when they do however, they are acting with full authority from the god or gods or capital G God to do whatever is needed, including slay other beings of any sort, to enforce what is desired. Angels who regularly interact with humans or other mortals may take the shape of a more usual mortal or have a shape that strongly resembles a mortal, but more usually angels are absolute abstractions of form, which emit visible light, visible lightning, visible fire, and flex air around themselves in a way that resembles breathing, though they do not need air food water or sleep, and only exist in physical shapes for moments in time when a physical shape is needed.The only 2 comforts a mortal has as far as the fear factor are, 1; angels absolutely only do what they are ordered to do within the parameters of their mission. 2; angels never fight or bear weapons or armor (except sometimes ceremonial things) unless they are sent to smite a being with death. When they do fight however, their skill, speed, and other stats are considered infinite, and their initiative roll is effortless. To put it in simple terms if an angel is sent to slay you, you just lost, no matter what you are or who you are, absolutely period.
Rather than just use creepy appearances, or booming voices, use their behavior as creepy as well. Maybe instead of just appearing in a boom of light, have an angel 'bleed' into reality, small chunks oozing from some unseen location onto one figure, or small particles gathering together into a full angel. Or maybe some crazy shit, like an angel slowly fractaling from nothing into a full size, make it seem really otherworldly. Make it act oddly too, like it's eyes staring in one direction, and it's not you, and they seem to shift as if they are following something. Rather than gently floating about, the angel could make sudden, jarring leaps in different directions to move, like it;s in fast forward, or it smears across the distance and slowly regroups at the place it moved to, or just blinks to locations when you blink. Maybe as it speaks you can hear things in the back of your mind, words of glory and religious fervor, or sinful terror, maybe it speaks like it has hundreds of voices and dialects, maybe it doesn't understand personal space and tends to stick very close to your back, whispering over your shoulder. Behavior can do a lot more than just creepy appearances
>>59007777God quads invoke the truth
>>59001721>>59005359There's also the Muslim equivalent, Iblis, who usually isn't seen as an angel at all but king of the shaytan (evil jinn made of smoke).
>>58996490Angels who are warriors or judges have millions of wings arms legs and faces, eyes shooting destruction as visible lightning, wings reflecting intense prismatic light, weapons inflicting soul slaying injuries, and every piece of armor having some form of boosting and strengthening enchantment, usually the same enchantment, but somethings one thing for arms and another thing for legs, and sometimes even an additional thing for helmet, the torso armor usually having an enchantment of some form as well. They only act when given leave to act by deities or capital G God, and their authority is totally unavoidable.
They're good people but they're terrifying. They consider all sins as sin, they won't kill you for a lie but they view all those not yet redeemed as a matter of absolute fucking urgency. They will forgo anything not neccesary for survival to preach to any who'll listen. They often don't look people in the eye because their true form is covered in eyes and they have truesight in every direction. Some can be in multiple places at once, some have multiple bodies at once [not the same thing] each of which has a different function; a humanesque body with wings to love and sing, a predatorial dragon/dinosaur/chariot/robot for war etc. They can be the loveliest, kindest people imaginable but the second they see a devil or demon they turn into Hobbs from Fast and the Furious towards that fiend.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rGPKIgdV6A
Maybe post-New Testament angels kind of grew out of their autism and started doing things for the benefit of human understanding, such as adopting the winged humanoid guise. Maybe they refer to those olden days when people got to see their true forms with a bit of embarrassment (or nostalgia, depending on the individual).
>>58996490Yandere towards humanity
God is new testament, forgiving, loves everyone, everyone goes to heaven. Angels are still old testament. When Sodom didn't roll them out a red carpet they burned the fucking place down.They don't believe anyone seserves salvation. Angels fucking hate you. They will help you because God tells them to, but they're not happy and theyll let you know about it.
>>59016321Yandere towards God first, but also yandere towards humanity as well in the way that a yandere would love her husband's children.
>>59016381This "God suddenly changing in the New Testament" meme pisses me off so much. In the Old Testament everyone was responsible for their sins unless they made the appropriate sacrifice. In the New Testament God gave his own life to pay the appropriate sacrifice for EVERYONE WHO ACCEPTED IT. Thus he didn't act angry to them anymore because he didn't have to judge them anymore.But yeah, angry angels of a loving God don't make much sense to me.
>>59016400Angels loving humanity like a yandere older sister loves her younger brother may also work.
>>58996490Both of these things at once.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu0rP2VWLWwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tksN5Jaan9E
>>59016443So there was a change, it was just a motivated one.
>>59016550Not in personality. In situation. A judge isn't smiling when he's sentencing someone to death. Dad's not smiling when you're disobeying him.
>>59016489>incestous sister yandereI didn't know this was a thing and now I can't stop thinking about it
>>59016381alternatively, god is dead. god took human form and let humans kill him and everyone's waiting for him to come back and the angels are slowly dying but they're still trying to keep up the charade for the benefit of humans.Angels are withered and bent and their halos are faltering, faces stained with tears, the font of energy they drew from is gone and they're wasting away, but they gotta keep it going as long as they can
>>59004703A saint https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_of_CagliariOr a king. Definetely not a angel
>>59004703There's actually another theory (not a popular one) that Lucifer/Satan/the Deceiver is another facet of Yahweh ala the rest of the Trinity. Jung wrote a book about it, mainly addressing the change from wrathful to benevolent that the Abrahamic God goes through from Old -> New Testament and theorizing that Lucifer fulfills the "missing" dark or feminine aspect of God. Again, not very popular because it suggests that the Creator is just as flawed as Creation.
>>59005041>Power Word: CHILL
>>59006151Enjoy your pizza, (((anon)))
>>59001721A really whiny sjw crossed with all the bile and vitriol of a kid from super nanny. And for crying out loud read the Screwtape Letters.
>>59005203>>59005082It's my understanding that Egyptians invoked the name of their gods in attempts at spellcasting. You were never to invoke Yahweh in such a way.
>>59018441I might have misunderstood where I read this but I recall reading something that invoking the name of a deity summoned them. So, you couldn't do that with YHWH because looking upon His face is what gets you blasted out of existence.
>>59018646Degrees of perfection, I think that's a WoD thing? He's so perfect that we die, so he made slightly less perfect angels that made slightly less perfect angels until finally we can actually perceive the angel without exploding.Oh wait, that was Dogma, never mind.
>>58996959Alternatively, make them betray you on a dime, if it's for the "greater good" they'll do it, no matter how many need die or which friends they must betray
>>59019770I like it. All souls go to Him eventually anyway, so the Greater Good is all that ever matters.
>>58996490make them super androgynous
>>59018441Have you seen the song "Playing with the big boys now" song from Prince of Egypt? Yeah, pretty much what you're saying. He refused to be Abracadabra, he's not a wizards rabbit.
>>59003453Was /tg/ created before 2005?
>>59020177I have, and now I wonder if that's the only place I heard that information from.
>>59020309Either way it's not innacurate. The "magic" forbidden in Leviticus is the practice of calling on false gods and demons for aid, like in that song. Meaning that in general, barring specific spells, the bible is ok with d&d wizards, but not clerics or warlocks.
>>59021138>The "magic" forbidden in Leviticus is the practice of calling on false gods and demons for aid, like in that song.Which is the same stuff as the first commandment, you're to stick to their god, and their god alone. Invoking gods in spells is essentially prayer after all, you ask the divine being to do shit for you. Which is also how the judaic magic worked, they just didn't say Yaweh's name since their god was extra ultra special. Since we're talking about people who didn't see this shit as supernatural, but just how the world worked, the DnD wizard that doesn't invoke any spiritual aid here ends up being about as "magical" as an engineer, using his knowledge of how shit works to get shit done.
>>58996490>>59005539Deep sea creatures, then cover them in eyes and replace fins with wings.
>>59017807This>>58996490I'd make then fairly normal benevolent characters, who are painful to be around. They are direct channels of the Divine. They're so pure it hurts. Just being next to them wraps your idea of what beauty is. Thier goodness makes all the petty hateful things you've done in your past well up. You're so unworthy it hurts. But they forgive you, which makes it hurt even more. I'd make the charters take the syste. equivalent of saves every round they deal with one. >Save to stop yourself from weeping>Save against grovelling>Save against pulling your hair out in grief>Save against fleeing to hide your shame>Save against self mutilation as penance>Save against dancing for joy>Save against death by euphoriaAnd maybe some additional saves when it's over, to represent the characters coping with what just happened>Save against depression>Save against disbelief>Save against self inflicted blindnessMost of the effects should be minor role-playing ones, but you can feel free to ramp up there intensity with exposure.
>>59021795>>59021899I think they need more human and animal faces.
>>59018441It's also about swearing using God's name. Like "I swear on me mum" sort of thing.
>>59001721Selfish perfectionism. When God said This is good" during creation, Lucifer/Satan would say "Wouldn't it be better if I changed it?" It appeals to both the Christfags and everyone else; Christfags would love it because it's so OBVIOUSLY evil because God is always right and questioning him is inherently wrong, while everyone else realizes how ridiculous and selfish it is for God to be inherently right.
>>59022097>Selfish perfectionism.Never would have thought of this but it makes perfect sense. Excellently observed anon.
>>59022097If good created Lucifer, didn't he create him to be wrong?Maybe have Lucifer revell on his wrongness. Like an actor who gets to enjoy being a villian. At the end of the day it's all for show.
>>59001280Fuck me, I’m autistic.
>>59022768>>59022792Yes. You magnificent bastard.
>>59022269>>59022097How is it selfish to be always right?
>>59022097>being correct is selfishnani?
>>58996490We had an angle in our campaign that was just a normal guy in a business suit but his eyes looked like holes into a starry infinity. Whenever he moved or talked the world shifted to fall into rythem with his movement or speech.
>>59023631>>59023707I didn't really understand that part, or most of it, to be honest. I can, however, see Lucifer as an innovator or perfectionist.Perhaps it is selfish to choose what is the objectively good for lesser beings? If I recall, the bible doesn't really encourage coming up with your own right and wrong.
>>59023906Bitch please, you dont even know what the bible says about right and wrong. Better yet you dont know why it says things about right and wrong.
>>58996490Their completely above humanity, and are perfectly willing to commit atrocities "for the greater good".That being said, they aren't omnipotent, so decisions made for the greater good can still be mistakes. You'd never tell that to an angel's face though.
>>59023906>Perhaps it is selfish to choose what is the objectively good for lesser beings? If I recall, the bible doesn't really encourage coming up with your own right and wrong.The Bible doesn't encourage you to create your own right and wrong because it operates under the assumption that God is objectively correct in every way about everything. It's not really God choosing what is right and wrong for lesser creatures so much as it is God laying down the objectively optimal and perfect rules for his creation to abide by.
>>59024009>>59005359Pretty great thread for people like me who have a understanding of the bible as deep as a thimble. Cheers anons.
>>59018441I had heard a video about it and I think it's Prager who said it's closer to "Do not carry God's name in vain". Meaning don't do shit under the banner of god. Don't murder under the name of god, rape etc. Makes a bit more sense when comparing to other commandments than just invoking God's title as God isn't God name. Interesting thing to watch
>>59016939Don't take Jung's books literaly. He never intended to be a theologician
>>59020014but that's just hot
I also think that a misplaced sense of caring would be great. Like, not in the sense that they don't care at all about the lives of mortals, because dealing with mortals is basically half their job. But like, you wouldn't imagine God coming down from on high to fix the toe you stubbed on your coffee table. It's just such a small problem.So like, if a person gets stabbed, say, the angel would be able to see that it will heal in the future, and so they don't pay it any thought and try to get the person to stop whining about it. Or, turned up to 11, they don't see death as a big problem. To them, dying is just moving up a floor. No biggie, they move up and down all the time. But, if you do something that's a sin? You're fucked senpai
>>59016939That sounds like Gnosticism. And we dont like Gnosticism 'round these parts.
>>59002096Removing a single letter doesn't mean you're magically not taking God's name in vain. I'll see you in hell, bud.
>>58996490I think that there are probably a ton of ways to do it. My personal suggestion is to make them fundamentally inhuman. They don't necessarily share human perspectives, aren't relatable to humans, don't have any personal interest in many things humans do, and so on. They aren't bastards or anything, they aren't even uncaring. They just aren't human at all.
>>59026240That sounds really hard to do.
>>59026393No, it's more just that it's extremely vague, and only part of the solution. An angel shouldn't just be some guy. The hard part is what you replace all the human parts with.
>>58997326Am I kawaii?
>>59027102yes>repost pic with ahegao eyes
>>59026815The issue I see is that we are really good at anthropomorphizing non-human things. "Oh it opened its mouth, it must be angry!" "It walks so slowly, it must be tired" etcetera. Making something that is not relate-able in any possible fashion feels like it would be impossible. I guess that's why people like to portray them like this anon:>>59005541
>>59017368I fucking did.
>>59023897Sounds like acute character, Anon.
>>59003453See, it's a common misconception that when someone here says "Reddit" that it has anything to do with the actual website Reddit.com, here "reddit" is just one of the many words used to mean "thing I don't like"
>>59001721A grandiose trickster figure who believes he is above morality and God's judgement. Nonetheless, he and all of his ambition and cunning exist to fill a role in God's plan, as he is the only angel willing to intervene in human affairs that is clever enough to see and prey upon Things That Should Not Be, which threaten existence by their nature.
>>59027481Sure, people can make up bullshit to relate to a car, even imagining it has a face, but that's more relating to what you're pretending the car is. The car itself has no face. What people are imagining as a face doesn't even function like a face at all, and treating it as a face is unlikely to get you anywhere.
>>59027594Fucking you said? Was it a cheese pizza?
>>59005359>christian god: tortures you for all eternity for trivial reasons or because of what someone else did (adam and eve)>jewish god: humans get booted out of eden due to shenanigans but you can still make a good life for yourself, and if you go go hell it's a temporary time-out while you sit in the corner and think about what you've done young man.....I like the Jewish version much more.
>>59030124I wonder who could have interpreted that for you.
>>58996490God with the Godspeed method, have angels incapable of defying their natures. So an angel of comfort would always be giving off a comforting smile and trying to comfort those around her, even as she's lopping their heads off.
>>58996936>make the angels demons
>>59021795GRANT US EYES
>>59001721Paradise Lost style.More devoted to his fellow angels than he is to God or Mankind, and refusing to watch them ordered to serve their lessers, he strikes out against God.Seriously, read Paradise Lost. It does a very good job of turning Lucifer into an actual character, even if it doesn't mesh well with a lot of the theology it references.
>>59005082/pol/ does it ironically
>>59030124Tbf, I've seen more liberal denominations of Christianity with interpretations closer to the Jewish version.
>>59001721Lucifer is God's model of what NOT to be, and his existence is vital in the transformation of people from beings of mere innocence to beings of true Goodness.Before eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, mankind doesn't know what evil is, nor good, and therefore can do neither. Their way of living is completely external. It is derived from God's word. God's morality is the TRUE morality because God created the universe, but humans can't know that without experiencing its antithesis. Think of a kid touching a stove. Once they touch it, they experience consequences, and they'll never touch another stove again. Mankind is experiencing a moral maturation. God wants us to make mistakes. He doesn't actually want us to heed his every word because he wants us to suffer/get burned by the cosmic stove until we learn our lesson and become intrinsically good beingsSatan is a tragic character because it is his fate to be the evil mankind shouldnt be, and he will always suffer as a result. This isn't because God creates fate, but because the results of free will are inevitable. There is one, linear timeline. You have choices, but you're gonna make the choices you're gonna make, which is "fate". Not because it's dictated, but because its the inevitable outcome.Satan sees aspects of God and mistakenly perceives them as the aspects that make God the ultimate goodness. God is powerful and can destroy anything he doesn't like, which Satan believes is what makes God so great, but he's wrong. Great leaders arent great because of force, though force isnt necessarily an evil. It's just a tool. God is great because God is wise, omniscient, patient, etc, and the things that define Jesus are what makes God great.>>59004199wrong, he IS enacting God's will by revolting. He just doesn't know it.
>>59034564The Orthodox view is that the separation from God itself is the Hell, rather than a special box you get sent to forever for being naughty.
>>59005359Jewish Hell kind of sounds like Purgatory, minus the ability to buy your way out of it.
>>59034636>wrong, he IS enacting God's will by revolting. He just doesn't know it.Or he TOTALLY knows and it drives him fucking batshit.
>>59034636>>59034914>It- it's not like I like you or anything God-Sama!
>>59034636>You have choices, but you're gonna make the choices you're gonna makeThis sounds very predestination, Calvin.
>>59034871>Can't buy your way out of Jewish HellThe worst possible fate.
>>59034914And at the end of the day it turns out that the overarching plot of Blazblue was actually closer to Judeo/Christian lore than the Japanese mythology that it took names from.
>>59034871Well it does only last for a maximum of 12 months, and everyone who has ever done anything good in life will eventually move to the world to come. The handful of people who haven't, get annihilated, but their number is in the double digits at most.
>>58996959Is there a source on this?
>>59021795>>59021899>>59021961>Be Not Afraid.
How would an angel view an AI/robot?
Pretty good thread here guys, am still reading so sorry if this question was already asked and answered: are Satan and Lucifer one and the same? And if not, what is the potential final fate of both?
>>59036514Depends who you ask. Jews say Lucifer is a Babylonian king, and Satan - Samael is just a servant of God. Supposedly, no war in heaven has occurred.Christianity, they are the same. Not sure what his final fate is. Probably to get his shit slapped by God when the trumpets sound.
>>59036514Satan = Lucifer in Christianity.
>>59033534Basically this except that they still follow the commands of God.
>>59028437since fire burned heretics you bogomil fuck
>>58996490horrifying gigantic bodies with various features and strangely shaped, but with a normal, beautiful human face somewhere on the body
>>59021942Those are pretty good ideas mate>>59034636This was a really moving thing to read. I don’t know if you know it but I really feel something strange reading that. Like when you find that receipt that makes you realize your wife is throwing a surprise party. I read that and I read the truth.
>>59036680As for the final fate of Satan In Christianity, I'm pretty sure it's established that he would be forgiven if he repented. He is just too proud to repent.
>>59037713No, forgiveness for demons is a fringe position not accepted by any major denomination.
>>59037713I just have a bit of trouble articulating his whole myth. So here is where I am at now:He [Lucifer] is both the "Prometheus" and the Evil? Does that mean that all the "fire" he has to offer to humanity deals only with the material world and therefore is faulty and fake? You can never truly save yourself from this "physical illusion" (this "test") by adhering to his wisdom and because it deals only with this earthly life, though you can become powerful while you live...For when a soul accepts Christ as truth it yearns to strive for the divine, to things spiritual in nature (true) and a return to Heaven and God?
>>59033513is this series decent?
>>59027983A redditor is someone who is smug, willfully ignorant and passively aggressive.
Originally, I was going to suggest Drakengard-style Angels for your purposes OP, but then I remembered that Drakengard Angels are Capital E Evil and want to extinguish all of mankind everywhere, and now I feel silly.
>>59037983The Watchers dance. The Watchers sing. The Watchers are cheeky cunts.
>>59001721>High, in a permanent orbit, Solcom, like a blue star, directed all activities upon the Earth, or tried to.>There was a power which opposed Solcom.>There was the Alternate.>When man had placed Solcom in the sky, invested with the power to rebuild the world, he had placed the Alternate somewhere deep below the surface of the Earth. If Solcom sustained damage during the normal course of human politics extended into atomic physics, then Divcom, so deep beneath the Earth as to be immune to anything save total annihilation of the globe, was empowered to take over the processes of rebuilding.>Now it so fell that Solcom was damaged by a stray atomic missile, and Divcom was activated. Solcom was able to repair the damage and continue to function, however.>Divcom maintained that any damage to Solcom automatically placed the Alternate in control.>Solcom, though, interpreted the directive as meaning "irreparable damage" and, since this had not been the case, continued the functions of command.>Solcom possessed mechanical aides upon the surface of Earth. Divcom, originally, did not. Both possessed capacities for their design and manufacture, but Solcom, First-Activated of Man, had had a considerable numerical lead over the Alternate at the time of the Second Activation. Therefore, rather than competing on a prouction-basis, which would have been hopeless, Divcom took to the employment of a more devious means to obtain command.>Divcom created a crew of robots immune to the orders of Solcom and designed to go to and fro in the Earth and up and down in it, seducing the machines already there. They overpowered those whom they could overpower and they installed new circuits, such as those they themselves possessed.>Thus did the forces of Divcom grow.>And both would build, and both would tear down what the other had built whenever they came upon it.>And over the course of the ages, they occasionally converse....
>>59030124Why do you have opinions on things you have absolutely zero knowledge about? Jews don't believe in hell. What you describe as a "time-out zone" is called purgatory, and those who can't pass cease to exist completely. Their souls are undone. And how the fuck is having a good life restricted to Judaism?You are doing nothing but trying to bash Christianity and elevate Judaism. Not really surprising, since everyone bashes Christianity nowadays. For (((some reason))) there is no such thing as Christanophobia, even though you can have phobias for every ideology and you can be anti this and that..This guy is absolutely correct to call you out: >>59033291>>59033612Curse you people for ever coming here. Seriously, what the fuck are you even doing here? If you don't believe in free speech, go back to plebbit.
>>59038031>If you don't believe in free speech,You first.
>>59038088Jesus Christ. How much do you have to project to see hypocrisy where there is none? Please enlighten me, what board was I calling to be banned?
>>59038088STOP DERAILING THIS BEAUTIFUL THREAD ABOUT CHRISTIAN MYTHOLOGY YOU DOUBLE NIGGER
>>59038111FUCKING SAMEFAG DERAIL TACTICS FUCK OFF WORM
>>59036334They wouldn't. It would be difficult for them to comprehend the concept and would likely ignore it if at all possible
>>59038111You were just saying free speech you don't agree with should be removed from this site. "If you don't agree with me on X, leave". That's about as 'I hate free speech' as someone saying a board should be deleted, which is to say, not at all, but you're happy to mistake it for it. In reality, this not being a government venue, 'free speech' isn't really relevant, but you probably like to forget that too. In general people who complain about it on 4chan of all places like to conflate free speech with consequence free speech. Unfortunately, in real life, "Talk shit, get hit" is the rule of the day. If you say something like (for example) "hitler was right, nigger nigger nigger", a bunch of people who disagree with you (or just prefer a higher level of discourse) might decide to be vocal about their disagreement, or seek to remove you from their community. Go figure, right?
>>59036334>Oh look Karsiel, the mortals are trying to make life in their image like our glorious creator had made them>Mmmyes their sad and blasphemous attempts are nonetheless less misguided then them trying to achieve magnificent abs like He has
>>59005359A lot of this is wrong or badly misleading. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the Jews didn't have sacrifices. The only reason they don't have them now is that they believe they're not allowed to until their messiah builds the third temple.
>>59038171>ban something>ask someone to leave>same thingIt makes me really sad your vote is as valuable as mine.>free speech>consequence free speech.You can't have one without the other. Social ostracism is just as destructive as government ostracism, when it comes to free speech.You fit the smug, ignorant ledditor stereotype perfectly.
>>59019770This is good, but with each angel biased toward the aspect it was created to embody.For instance, an angel of wrath would have its priorities weighted towards destroying enemies of the "Good".Despite these differing values, angels somehow never come into direct opposition. An angel of peace would make many different decisions than an an angel of war, but neither has even an iota of resentment for the other, and when they do come in contact and work in tandem on something, they somehow always agree.
4chan is the satan of the internet
>>59038290You got that backwards bro.
>>59038317>4chan of the internet is satan?What did he mean by this?
>>59038329How is that backwards you lousy grot?I meant Internet is the Satan of 4chan. Remember why we fight.
>>59037926So it's just like 4Chan? No wonder everyone hates it.
>>59038031Your religion is retarded as well as the jews
>>59038212Motherfucker if you socially ostracize someone (the jews) they (or anyone else who disagrees with you) have every right to do the same back to you. What, are they not people? Do they not count? Fuck off, you little bitch.
>>59038811Not that motherfucker but you do realise what the point of ostracizing a group is? I mean dehumanisation is kind of a major feature of ostrasizing.
>>59038317tenretni eht fo natas eht si nahc4
>>59038912I'm pointing out his hypocrisy by reminding him that jews also have free speech and are people.He thinks he deserves free speech without consequence despite him whining about people using their own free speech to talk shit about Christianity.
>>59039245see this shows a lot about the current right wing rhetoric: It attacks other positions not as positions but as complete intellectual confusion, while still maintaining malice in the intent. It's the definition of wanting to have your cake and eating it too.
>>59030124what you describe under jewish God is pretty much Catholic dogma right now.
>>59039857You lie about me. The lie describes you perfectly. Therefore, you are projecting.>malice in the intent.That's what happens when you first lie about reality, a religion in this case, and then about a person. Yes, I do feel malice towards you.>It's the definition of wanting to have your cake and eating it too.It really is not. Why can't you just stop using words and phrases whose definitions you do not understand? In fact, why can't you just be silent? All you have is propaganda that can't stand up to simplest criticism. So just shut up.
>>58996490Loved making Angels these blinding nebulous beings of light. They would never interact with the players, but would destroy monsters and even harm characters. Made for some massive fear and confusion for my players in Dread.
>>59039944At that point, what would be the distinction between angels and fire elementals?
Here's how I do angels and demons>they have Biblical appearances (or stranger)>normal anti-magic doesnt have an effect. They can be bound but the attempt is usually met with a rapid death.>they are immune to detect thoughts or compulsions to tell the truth>however, angels will always tell the truth or just withold info. Demons sometimes do, but can lie. Both can detect lies.>demons often pose as angels. The reverse isnt true. >angels refuse to talk about the beyond, and if asked about God they immediately weep black blood and shout "Glory Glory Glory">demons tell different tales, and seek to increase net negative emotions via pain and suffering>they cannot be killed, but can be beat back to their home plane>in game terms they are the strongest of monster types
>>59039857Literally why else would I want a cake?
>>59040550You won't have a cake anymore if you eat it. Hence the saying.
>>59040465>demons often pose as angelsI like this.
>>59040465>>angels refuse to talk about the beyond, and if asked about God they immediately weep black blood and shout "Glory Glory Glory"It'd be really easy to bully an angel.
>>59040966Yeah, which is really fucked when you consider that you cant discern their thoughts or if they are lying. The paranoia factor goes through the roof. Especially for my 3 agnostic/athiest players who thought Angel meant "person with wings" rather than "gibering mouther with wings made of hands that sometimes is sent to Earth to hand out divine retribution, and isnt always 'nice'". In contrast, my devout Christian player just accepted thats how they are and actually is great at figuring out which is which.
>>59041051I mean thats not too far from religious texts where they get into a fervor and start singing nonstop
>>59041051Its also not a straight answer to the players questions; its clear that they are praising SOMETHING, but they refuse to outright answer those types of questions. So far as they are concerned, their existance and religious books are evidence enough.
>>59041081How does he figure it out? I'd have trouble telling the difference from the sounds of things.
>>59038190Who said they didn't have sacrifices? While Jews did have sacrifices before he destruction of Temple, and will have sacrifices if it is rebuilt again, sincere repentance was always enough to have one's sins forgiven in Judaism. Sacrifices, if performed properly, merely helped the Hebrews connect with God. >1 Samuel 15:22: Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the Lord? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.>Isaiah 1:11: "The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats."
>>59006382>the soup is divineWould you say that it is good enough for Jehovah?
>>59005359>Christians believe that original sin is a sin that cannot be atoned for without the divine blood sacrifice of Jesus, and that every Human therefore deserves to be tortured for all eternity, no matter how sin-free they live their lives.There is no reason to interpret Christian final judgment differently from that of Judaism Judaism. Are you purposefully trying to prop up Judaism and demean Christianity?Christians believe that after death they will either go to hell, purgatory or heaven. Hell can either be interpreted as punishment or just grave. On judgement day, people will reunite with their bodies and receive the final judgment. The righteous will go to heaven, and the wicked will be burned in hell. The fire will consume your soul, like fire tends to do, and you will cease to exist.
>>59000525>angels range from 2000 miles(1/4th earth diameter) tall to over 303 earths tall(2.77 sun diameters or 2.4million miles)>every word the largest one speaks creates a lightning storm equivalent in size to those found on jupiter>neutronium golems are essentially midgets powerwise compared to even the smallest at these scales and their death throws might make them feel slightly warm at bestWell shit.
>>59039245>>59038031Why the fuck is this /pol/tard being allowed to derail a thread about Judaic angels with his rehearsed monkey-screech?
>>59042189>shit on Christianity: always relevant>refute Christianity bashing: WAAAHHH
>>59041219I honestly think he just has a better understanding that Good =/= Nice, and in their limited experience Demons tend to be nicer, justify their actions, and act weak so they can get you to go along with them (oh i cant do this alone, but you brave adventurers can help...), whereas Angels will do something and go "yeah, I did it, what of it? Deus Vult."They only encountered 2 of each so far, and it usually took them a few sessions to know which was which.
>>59042442>>59041219I guess in otherwords Angels seem to be autistic, with 0 regard for how their actions appear (other than the obligatory "be not afraid", they dont mind be horrifying smite machines or zealots). Demons on the other hand try to work the heart strings, and try to damn you by good intention. They'll even do a legit good deed if they think they can get a payoff from your trust or rapport, or get you to "owe them"(how he identified demon1, since he figured than an angel would never do something in exchange for a favor but instead because it was the Right Thing/Divine order)
>>59041958>There is no reason to interpret Christian final judgment differently from that of JudaismOf course there is; the difference should be obvious. Jewish Hell is similar to Purgatory, except that noone spends more that 12 months in it, pretty much everyone gets a place in the world to come, and the handful of people who are truly evil are annihilated (a Second Temple era Rabbinical source listed only five such truly evil people, IIRC, but I'm sure a few more have can be added to the list). Meanwhile, Hell as the place of eternal suffering is still the main doctrine in Roman Catholicism, Eastern Catholicism and Protestantism. The suffering may be seen as resulting from fire-and-brimtone torture or mere separation from God, depending on the denomination, but it is eternal suffering nonetheless. Annihilationism is a small minority view, even if it's what you personally believe in.Are you also aware that your definition of Christians excludes the vast majority of Protestants, who do not believe in the Purgatory?>Are you purposefully trying to prop up Judaism and demean Christianity?No, I'm repeating information first given by respected theological experts from each religion. I have no reason to prop up any of the faiths I've read about over the years in an attempt to make my worldbuilding more believable, as they all appear equally untrue. Well, Jainist cosmology is fucking hilarious and should be ridiculed by people of all faiths, so that's one I'll be ready to demean any time.Anyway, I've moved too far away from the topic of spooky scary angels. I'll happily read your reply but probably won't continue this offtopic discussion, as it both somewhat rude to everyone else in this thread, and also seems to make some guy from the board-that-shall-not-be-named very, very angry.
>>59001112>God, and Angels by extension, really don't do the mind control thing if you're trying to keep with the Christian/Jewish theme.I would call this into question.>20 And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.>21 And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied likewise. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also.>22 Then went he also to Ramah, and came to a great well that is in Sechu: and he asked and said, Where are Samuel and David? And one said, Behold, they be at Naioth in Ramah.>23 And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah.>24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?1 Samuel 19:20-24
>>59037895It's short and pretty rushed, but it was okay. Nothing too special story-wise, and it was ended abruptly because the author died.The Angels, and how kinda fucked up they are, are pretty interesting I guess.
>>58996490I remember a long time ago I read about the physical descriptions of angels, and they were described as something like eldritch alien creatures. I've read descriptions such as them lacking eyes completely (just skin there), having multiple faces, too many limbs, etc. A creature's physical description doesn't have to dictate its morality.
>>59044111Aaaaaand I'm tapped.This one is my favourite Mohrbacher work. I have a signed print of it framed with aged driftwood next to me. Shit is so cash and cost me more than I care to admit.
>>59044089agreed, I always just went with the idea that they are in effect simply operating on a standard of beauty that is beyond our understanding, just because hey look strange and have strange habits does not mean they have to be weirdly divided from human morality, afterall we got our laws of right and wrong from the same place, we all share the same maker
>>59043290Okay, I'm not the other guy, but first off Protestants are a minority among Christian's world wide birth presently and throughout history. They're just a majority in North America and even then that might change in a few decades. The typical Christian in any point of time is more likely to belong to one of the confessional churches (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Church of the East).Secondly, the idea that original sin means all humans deserve death is not what most of them believe. Heck, Eastern Orthodox would be quite offended by that thought. It's that we suffer the consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve. Someone shoots you, your death is a consequence of their sin. You are not guilty of your own murder.On top of it, most of these confessional churches are not hyper-Calvinistic. They believe in a doctrine of invincible ignorance where if you never heard the Gospel you can't be judged for rejecting it. You will however still be judged for your personal sins which everyone commits. Basically many believe that someone who tries their best to be virtuous but never heard of Jesus (or everything they heard was wrong) they still might be spared Hell. We dont know for certain. But besides for canonized saints we dont know for certain where anyone's soul went and it's not even required to believe in canonized saints either, merely permissible.
>>58996490Just remove the "How do I" and the question mark.There, you got your answer.
>>58996490I personally have lesser angels that intermingle with humans and other species while the other ones are off doing their own thing. They often disturb and terrify lesser willed individuals, even though they nice and friendly, especially because they genuinely cherish life and see it as their responsibility to look after them like a little sibling. Their sheer presence can often overload their little souls and essentially break their minds until they're barely more than meat puppets executing their will, but they're not very smart so they. But they will also do things like take over their stronger willed adherents if the need arises to stop something that threatens their assigned planets. All while never informing them that they'll become part of the host of divine order and never see true rest, serving the greater good forever, because they believe it irrelevant from their view. As well, the more power they give you by pushing you closer to being like them, the less you maintain of your original personality until you think of as little your own self preservation as they do. They'll also take over one of your eyes which will rapidly twitch unless covered, as you serve as one of their eyes as well as their hands. Their speech is also deeply unnerving, because while you can't understand the words they actually speak, their meaning comes through clear as a bell in your mind. Basically, their existence and lack of understanding what the effects they have on other non-angles paint them as off-putting, even though they do what they do out of the kindness and love and can't see the perspective of any of what they being a bad prospect.
>>59034636There is no room for Calvinism here.
>>59044238>if you never heard the Gospel you can't be judged for rejecting itThen why do Christians send out missionaries to people living in blissful ignorance, sending some of them into eternal damnation? Isn't it better for people to never ever hear of the "Good News"?
Give them boobs.
I had a run where an angel physically appeared during the climax of the game. The detective it had been imprisoned inside for decades felt justice as a blinding raw emotion that permantley increased his Will, her party members were blinded by its glory with no save for 5 turns, and all surrounding enemies were flashed into pillars of salt. The final antagonist was stripped naked and unarmed, and all the girl had to do was run him down while he babbled and screamed about seeing fire.
>>59045359You could ask the same of God, since man was living in blissful ignorance of the breadth and depth of their own wrongdoing before the Law.God refused to let them damn themselves just because of some Dunning-Kruger action.
>>59005541Sauce on that art? And do those characters exist in their own drawings? I dig the guy with the hooves.
>>59005539is that pic supposed to be some kind of uterus/fertility god?
>>59042442>>59042663That's pretty awesome actually. Especially cool that it's the Christian guy who figured out the pattern there. Kudos on the authenticity.
>>59051009Thanks anon, they like it too
Bayonetta has some fun ideas. Angels are hideously ugly creatures that create themselves skin out of marble and gold to make themselves presentable to humanity when they manifest corporeally. They look a LOT like demons when you strip the finery away.
>>59038031>blah blah blah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH *BRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPP*You are a stupid ass antisemitic shit-for-brains, your opinion about anything means nothing.
>>59055297Antisemitic? You actually are a jew?
>>58996743Reminder, Samael means "Venom of God" which is probably why he was mentioned in the same breath as Af and Hemah.
>>59040966This is actually in the Bible where Satan appears as an angel of light to trick people.
>everyone always hyped up Satan to be the big bad and the most powerful aside from God>is only mid tier in terms of power scaling among angels (as a Cherub) and there are other Cherubs that outrank him and are more powerul>not even mentioning the Seraphim which outclass him in every fathomable way really activated my almonds
>>59044144>just because hey look strange and have strange habits does not mean they have to be weirdly divided from human morality, afterall we got our laws of right and wrong from the same place, we all share the same makerTHIS ETERNALLY THIS.
>>59043290What's so funny about Jainism?
>>59045359Because, as it turns out, believing it's a possibility they can get to Heaven doesn't mean believing it's likely. The Gospel and the sacraments of the Church are still the best way revealed to us by God. It's true people can survive all their life driving cars without a seatbelt. Best to buckle up anyways.
>>59039911>why can't you just be silent?Because I don't want to be, neo-Nazi asshole.>So just shut upMake me, shit-for-brains.
>>59007777THE HOLY WORD HAS BEEN SPOKEN!
>>59008198This turns into a generic 'higher beings are evil' kind of thing doesn't it?
>>58996490You have to eat all of the ambrosia
>>59060569Freakin' nips. I swear it's always like this when mangaka try to into religion.
>>59005359>and that every Human therefore deserves to be tortured for all eternity, no matter how sin-free they live their lives.That is not how the doctrine of original sin works
>>59060633It gets a little better later on, but not much.
>>59006151>Nah, some of us on 4chan actually are, even if we’re bad and only keep on high holidays.It's okay, just eat the cheeseburger already.
>>59061502Not eating beef was Hinduism's thing wasn't it?
>>59055490I thought he was one of the special 24-wing cherubim?
>>58996490You have the right idea with that image. Anything that has inhuman characteristics while still being vaguely humanoid is incredibly unsettling.They can only communicate through telepathy and have no vocal chords to actually speakMaking them like monodrones in their morality. If the players see them mercilessly impale a fiend that’s crying and begging for it’s life without hesitation I think it’ll sell the impact of them being unwavering to a fault
>>59037983>wanting to exterminate mankind makes them EvilNo, based on some of acts of destruction in abrahamic traditions, that just makes them “not nice”. “God” has multiple stories where humanity was a mistake to be disposed of. Especially given that Yoko Taro humans have their shitiness turned up more for narrative effect.But then again, if you step outside of religious tradition and take real unbiased look, people can come to the conclusion that “God” is a shitty little cunt too.Keep your story straight.
>>58996490Well this is a cool-ass thread.In the interest of sparking more discussion on Abrahamic theology, what exactly are the deal with angels in Islamic doctrine? I know Muhammed got some of the teachings through one on one chat with Allah on the mountaintop, but some of it still came from angels known to the bible and torah. What's with that?
Make sin a tangible energy, angels insectoids, and lastly make them eat sin.Their heavenly glow is simply dust and spores mixed with bioluminescence to confuse prey.
>>59064670Islam mostly expands on the angels mentioned in the Tora/Bible and adds a few new ones such as Azrael.IIRC Muhammed got his initial instructions from Michael and at a later point was carried to Jerusalem and up through the spheres by some Sphincx-esque thingie, where he met a bunch of angels and eventually God and got the rest of the Quran.
>>59064761I thought it was Gabriel who originally gave him the foundations?
>>59001721I could post story of fall of Devil but it's long so I will just say to you how he is.First and foremost, he is Cherub. Cherub as you may know is angel of wisdom and knowledge. And Lucifer was chief cherub himself The wisest. The smartest. Angels are pure spirts. They are not bound by time and space as we are. When they "see" something they instantially compreehend it, both accidents of things and it's very essence. And ordinary angel can look at iron bar and know everything that there is about iron, all it's porperites, all it's usages, all it's "ironess" itself. Of course, angels can focus one thing at time but they memoritive powers and not in any way darkened. Once they decide to remeber a thing they will always rember it. Fallen angel may have fallen from thier natural glory and beuty, and thier will and intelct are full of malice but they kept thier mind in shape. So unless you have God on your side Devil is always ahead of you. He plays 4^100 chess and he always wins.Next, he is liar and father of lies. He is but liar there is. Unless you knows and stand firm by supernatural virtue of faith he will trick you. That does not mean that he says only the lies. He would not be as good at it if he did. Morover as said above he is mastermind. He is chief sceitnist in any field. But how he uses this knowlage is another deal.Lastly he is proudful and envious and murderer from beginning and he seaks to kill you. Of course chiefly he wants to murder your soul. For there is sin that kills and it kills your soul. But may you ask why? For he hates you. He he hates the very idea of man. He hates angels both fallen and glroius, Michael the most. He hates himself but more than it he hates God. But he hates with special kind of hate, that keep Hell even worse place than it's alredy is, not God for he sees him as worthy opponent. He hates all little saints of God, all the humble sheep of Lamb. Humbleness is the only thing Satan will never dare to stand.
>>59064959You're probably right; my knowledge comes from like one chapter in a book that was mostly focussed on the historical Arab Conquest, not Islam itself.
>>59065008yeah i remember from my reading of the hamzanama of gabe meeting up with hamza or one of his companions to give him a sword that he had somehow given to muhammed AND ali at the same time.eastern islamic fiction is a trip and a half let me tell you
>>59008415>I'd read somewhere that a satan is basically the old term for a devil's advocate,Pretty much; the actual meaning is somewhere around "Accuser", but can also be interpreted as "Adversary".Throughout most of the Bible and and early Christendom, he is very much a sanctioned force meant to test the faithful, it's only later when he got rolled up with local baddies that he actually becomes a malign force.
>>59065006>cherub looks at thing>get's immediate Pokedex-esque knowledge on thing>devil uses this to tell really good lies, cause he knows your Pokedex entry>hes prideful and envious>hates everyone including himselfIs that the tl;dr of it then?
I think it goes something like this- Angels are of a singular luminous substance, without the corporeal needs or animal instincts, as part of a subtle invisible world that holds the platonic ideals of natural elements and are representations of natural laws. Angels of fire are of the light of fire while Jinn are of it's earthly manifestation, the tongue of fire. When angels do dwell in the earth they keep the natural order of the cosmos.At least that's what Wikipedia says.
>>59065116More or less. But "pokedex" is not right analogy. Pokedex gives you basic informations about pokemon. "Angeldex" not only gives you all possible information about pokemon but also best strategies, history of desing and apperances in games and convincible bullshit. Of course, there are limits but Satan outclasses all but God. But there are things that he himself does not know. He does not read minds (this is privelage of God alone) but take a damn good gusses. You would too if you were highest created intelgence who observed somone through countless spies for all his life.Also one more thing about angels. They have free will in absolute sesne. And that means that thier will is: a)trully thiers i.e. they cannot be made to make a choice, it always 100% thiers. When Satan is said to cause fall of angels it means that he was first and that he showed them his way of thinking. But choice was thiers alone. b)fixable. Once they make choice they cannot unmake it. So there is no "repented demons" nor "rebelious angels". They choose to obey/disobey and won't change thier mind. Ever.
>>59065079>Throughout most of the Bible and and early Christendom, he is very much a sanctioned force meant to test the faithful, it's only later when he got rolled up with local baddies that he actually becomes a malign force.It's a meme really. We have book of Tobit in old Testament that portray devil as pure evil dick. Jesus speak about devil in harsh term. Peter, Paul, James and Jude even more. And John's apocalypse is one big "Fuck the devil, this evil fuck" story. With early church it's expanded upon but noone till Origen (who had some heretical views and was anathemised for it) saw in devil any redemptable qualites.Of course Jews from Babylon who wrote Talmud centuries latter will tell you otherwise but Talmud is craziness itself. For exemple it teaches that in Yom Kippur you do not ask forgivnnes from God alone but also sends gift to literal demon as a form of bribe for court.
Best angel-buddy coming through. If you want to have angel in RP be it Ralphael.
>>59065382> For exemple it teaches that in Yom Kippur you do not ask forgivnnes from God alone but also sends gift to literal demon as a form of bribe for court.Is this supposed to encourage god to forgive you or for demons to stop fucking with you?
>>59065639Jews see afterlife as a form or legal court. God is judge and Satan is literal accuser. And they think that they can bribe him beside pleading for God forgiveness. "If God won't forgive me for being a dick then maybe I can give this goat to Satan so that he won't bring charges against me".
>>59065382Didn't Jesus talk about Beelzebub, not Satan?
>>59067174Jesus says "I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven". Beelzebub was spoken about by Jews, namely that Christ is casting out demon by his power. But that doesn't really matter. Names of angels are rather thier function than anything. Satan means accuser for he accuse you before God and yourself.Devil means basiclly the same thing. Demon means spirit. Etc etc. Beelzebub means "Lord of Flies" and it's pun that Israelites made to mock heathen deity which as psalmist tell us was demon. But even those name signifies Satan for he is true lord of little demons that are dangerous for (spiirtual) health, delighting in (spiritual) filth annoying and desttoying peace of body and soul flies. Similarity in book of Tobit God angel Raphael, whose name means "God Heals" to hide his identity uses name "Azarias the son of the great Ananias". But let the reader understand, Azarias means “the healer of YHWH”" and Anaias means "The grace of YHWH”. Raphael said basiclly "I am healer of God son of great Grace of God". And it is as fitting as his common name "God heals"
>>59066426Seeing as all of the earliest Christians were Jews themselves, it’s no surprise that this idea continues in the NT, namely in the idea of Jesus, God’s chosen one and God Himself, as a perfect advocate for mercy on our behalf. The verdict is still “guilty”, but it’s a change of sentence.
>>59050397Looks like an Ernst Haeckel drawing, though I can't say if it's an actual one or just a drawing in imitation of his pictographs.