In fantasy, "The Light" as a religion or idol of worship gets thrown around a lot.But what this Light actually is more often than not left ambiguous and only loosely defined. For worldbuilding dorks like me, that doesn't satisfy.So, /tg/, what do you think the Light SHOULD be? What it's powers, laws, tenants, and limitations are? From where does it flow, and what are it's effects on the world, it's worshipers, and it's prophets?TL;DR Dafuq is "The Light"
>>56627210Its just genetic 'good religion', which sidesteps the obvious theological questions of 'why doesn't god take care of this supernatural evil shit if he's so great?' by not making it explicit that there IS a good aligned good to do that. Its sugar-free Faith (tm) for settings. The empty calorie version of explaining the source of your holy powers. Trying to add substance to The Light is like coming up with a complicated excuse for why all monsters seem to horde treasure. Its detail that doesn't really add anything, if if the absence of that detail bothers you so much your solution should be to use something else instead anyway.
>>56627610> geneticGENERIC. Fuck.
>In fantasy, "The Light" as a religion or idol of worship gets thrown around a lot.Horseshit, there is no "The Light" in Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Planescape, Birthright, etc.
>>56627210In Darkest Dungeon The Light is fake
>>56627648Fantasy not DnD, you illiterate faggot.
>>56627653Wrong, it's the Promise Of Safety. But you can assume its something, since 3 characters seemed to be powered by it.
>>56627210The "Light" is usually an abstraction of good juxtaposed against evil (Darkness). That's it, essentially.
>>56627648>Game of thrones>Warcraft >Star Wars? Sorta, but it's more the ForceWhat the fuck else has this 'all-present' setting element?
>>56627648I almost put the phrase "Except in tabletop, which usually has more defined pantheons." in the OP, but decided not too because the wording was a bit clunky.Apologies if I pinched a nerve there.>>56627653>>56627682The Light is a real and active force in Darkest Dungeon, as the Crusader, Vestal, and Flagellant all can produce physical manifestations of it, be it healing, light, or damage. But not actually the source of the world as the Heart of Darkness is. This leads me to believe it's either the direct product of faith, or some kind of spark of good born of a world of Darkness that humanity can perceive and channel.
>>56627653You know the "cosmology" of darkest dungeon is a kind of curious thing that I've always had a bit of trouble puzzling out.The general theme of the game is that lovecraftian thing where humanity is hopelessly small in the face of the incomprehensible horrors of the uncaring universe, but then there's also classes that explicitly invoke holy powers that incur buffs and things in the game that directly imply the existence of a higher power willing to directly assist humans in their struggles.
>>56627648>Eberronthe silver flame is basically this
>>56627727 My personal fan theory that it was somehow the Heart fucking with humanity just to inspire hope so it can crush them harder.
>>56627648>who is PelorHe fits the definition in that he’s a generic good guy light god.
>>56627769Except why would the Heart allow itself to be 'killed'? It's implied that while 'killing' the heart is only a setback, it's still a bad thing for it because it slows down it's process of consumption, although this big assumption on my part is all that supports my theory in the spoiler above.
>>56627814True, my theory leaves a huge gap in the end of the game. I've chalked it up, at times, to arrogance, or the theme of inevitability. I like the latter because it reinforces that nothing you do matters, you might defeat the heart now, but eventually it will succeed.
>>56627750You know how the eldritch monsters have cultists that worship them for power?The Light is like that. Its just an eldritch monster that doesn't like the other eldritch monsters very much. Its not on our side, its just against the same enemies as we are.
Hm, is this now A Darkest Dungeon Lore thread?
>>56628122Could be, being that The Light of DD is pretty interesting.It should stay open to any discussion regarding the OP though.
>>56628122I've always wanted to make a campaign/system that attempts to capture the feel of DD
>>56627210In Warcraft, The Light is some sort of energy field which all living beings emit and can be channeled if you know how. It does not have any tenants beyond that you believe in it, so you can use The Light to whatever ends you want.Fundamentally, light is something which we associate with safety and warmth, two things which our ancestors needed for survival. I think that is why it's a concept associated with holy, pure or good things. If a god is the embodiment of the concept of light, then they have to be good too if we follow this line of thinking. The tenants of a light based religion could simply be an extension of these needs. There are safety in numbers, so you should convert as many people as possible. Since there are safety in numbers, you need to be concerned about the rest of your community and help each other in times of need. There is a need for safety from supernatural threats or perils towards the soul, so The Light becomes a safeguard against the unwholesome things which wander around in the darkness just beyond the light.
>>56627210Wouldn't the Light merely be a temporary way to stave off the ever encroaching Dark, which one might assume is the natural state of existence and from which all else came? Curious that man would rather sit by the Light rather than in the Dark's cold comforting embrace.
>>56628272>>56628348Now that's some good shit.The Light is community, warmth, and love for one another.Naturally, being a self-serving prick, public menace, or uncooperative shit goes against what the Light means to people. Meaning a list of sins is easy to come, and is a religion that demands self sacrifice, cooperation, and humility.But what's the drawback?
>>56627210Whenever pressed, I use "The Holy/Golden Light" as a gestalt being slammed together by the goodwill of every sentient being in the world/universe. A conglomerate of everyone's desire to do a good deed of any size regardless of the cost. Like if you or I were to find ourselves face to face with it, it may look like a shiny golden version of you. If I'm a greedy scumbag in the vein of Ebenezer Scrooge with only a small desire for good it would be small, like a puppet-sized me, whereas if you yourself are a goody-two-shoes, it may be a giant Wizard-of-Oz-Head size projection. The physical representation of Neutral Good, or, The "I don't want to get into a moral argument that takes up the majority of our time and only succeeds in getting everyone pissed off so this is the generic good alignment that the generic paladins and clerics prescribe to so we don't have to deal with anyone trying to be That Guy and force the paladin into falling because one of us is an angsty semi-nihilist" God. As long as the person using it truly believes in themselves of their actions and honestly feels what they're doing is ultimately right, it just works. If I want to have a more complex or rigid faith, I make up a more specific God and leave The Holy Light as more of a natural law or force of the world.
>>56628469>But what's the drawback?This is where I'm having trouble with it in my own setting. A light based religion has a number of cliches it can fall into which I'm sure we've all seen at some point or another.>The religion loses its way from its original tenets>The religion becomes overzealous in enforcing its tenets>The religion becomes the governing body of the nation, enabling rampant corruption and economic subterfuge>The god of light becomes arrogant and their standards of good behaviour become unrealistic
>>56628544>As long as the person using it truly believes in themselves of their actions and honestly feels what they're doing is ultimately right, it just works.That's exactly how the Light functions in Warcraft. You can use it even while doing some obscenely terrible stuff, so long as you tick those prerequisites, you're golden, quite literally.
>>56628469just have it so the light cannot be used to harm, only restore, cleanse, ward, and protect
>>56627210I remember the old series of threads were /tg/ created a grimdark wargame setting, the crusading God of Light devoted to destroying the corrupt material world so it could be remade into an infinite realm of eternal, pure light was pretty interesting.
>>56627210The soul is like water; there is no soulThe soul is like fire; the soul is transientThe soul is like light; it is imperfectIn the dark there is self, in the dark there is permanence and in the dark is perfection. And in the fullness of time all things shall return to the dark.
>>56628598But honestly, those are good cliches.An obvious drawback you didn't mention is that while you and I may think those are good morals to live by, some people through personal choice or suffering they've endured think "Fuck other people, I'm living for me." and might view The Light as airy-fairy bullshit, or a fancy set of shackles to limit one's free will.While discussing a different context, >>56628607brings up a good point about the Light, if the prereqs to use it, channel it, or revel in it's blessings are too light, bad things happen.One might say "If you go against what the light means, you get smited and the light burns you up next time you try channeling it" but that itself snags on the question "What is the Light" and such a thing happening suggests that the light is a conscious thing.Methinks to have a good, defined version of The Light in a setting, it would have to tie into the creation myth of the setting and be nailed down early on and what it can and cannot do.
>>56628668Dithmenos, pls go and stay go
>>56628668>He thinks the dark will preserve him.Fucking heretic.
>>56628668Of course, anon.All things begin in darkness, and all so end. A man is no different. Darkness sprouts within him, it grows, and consumes him. Such is its nature. In the end, every man returns to the darkness whence he came. Darkness is his true essence.
>>56627210>So, /tg/, what do you think the Light SHOULD be? What it's powers, laws, tenants, and limitations are? From where does it flow, and what are it's effects on the world, it's worshipers, and it's prophets?A stand-in for Christianity. But don't just blatantly call it Christiantity because that triggers a lot of fedora-clad neckbeards.
>>56628745>He thinks illusion can uplift himThere is no power who is a real power who has not conquered suffering and no power greater than any power that has conquered suffering. To extinguish the fires of the passions should be the searcher's first and foremost goal. In truth there is no hell, no power and no heaven. All these things are illusory, unsatisfactory and shall pass away in the fullness of time.
>>56628873See, why can these things never be stand-ins for Zoroastrianism or Sikhism or, heck, Shinto or something?Why is it always nondemoninational-but-slightly-Catholic-flavored Christianity with the serial numbers filed off?
>>56628963There is actually quite a lot of Japanese media that plays with traditional Shinto beliefs.However, as for the other stuff: there simply aren't as many Iranian and Indian artists because they are poor and there works aren't translated to English.
>>56628963>Why is it always nondemoninational-but-slightly-Catholic-flavored Christianity with the serial numbers filed off?Because that's what most people are familiar with.
I did my D&D religions where light = bliss and darkness = terror.Super easy to understand.
>>56627210>So, /tg/, what do you think the Light SHOULD be?Whatever makes it not fucking dark. The Sun, Torches, Campfires, glowsticks and Neon Lights are all holy, because they let us fucking see and scares away the things that creep around in the dark.
>>56628963Eastern religions are much harder to adapted because of their abstract nature. Stories of western Heros often involved overcoming some sort of physical trail or obstacle that can be killed or removed with the help of divine inspiration. The man over came the trail but God is assumed to have helped in an indirect way. In contrast eastern religions have characters the have philosophical trails that involve exploration of the self. These stories are interesting but not super fun for running campaigns on. I mean who wants to play a game where you have to walk across the content to talk to three people, that all tell you the meaning of life is something different, just so you can find out life is meaning less and you wasted your time seeking foolish human desires such as meaning?
>>56627210The light is an old pervy man in a horse.He goes by ezalor but tends to forget it
>>56629298>Who is Rama?>Who is Sun Goku?
>>56627210What if the sun was actually a living god entity?
>>56629177As funny as your post was, it inspired me.>Worshippers of the Dark and other assorted Heretics often mutilate or remove their eyes in a variety of rituals meant to prepare them for "The World Without Light">For a while, zealots of the light would cover their eyes or in extreme cases mutilate them in a sign of self-depreciation, reasoning often being that they did not deserve to witness the beauty of the Light.>This practice however, was eventually deemed heretical due to the similarity of the practices.
>>56629503That's my game setting. There was once one sun god like entity. It was a beacon of light that shifted and pulled the endless chaos into order and form. Ironically, in the shadows of its own creations, chaos still thrived. Its works unmaid as soon as is gaze shifted. To fight this tide, the being spilt itself into thousands upon thousands of stars. Each star then began the process of creation, with its brethren to watch over each other's creations. But even the watchful eyes of innumerable stars could not gaze into every dark crevass.The stars made one final split. A small fraction apiece, giving the first spark of true life. The soul. Each being created with a will, and the ability to stave off the abyss. At least, that was the hope.
What if "The Light" was a cabal of gods who are more or less benevolent towards humanity and are mystically empowering themselves by concealing/abandoning their identities and operating only as part of the gestalt whole that is The Light?
>>56627697>Game of thronesWhat the fuck is "the Light" or equivalent in Game of Thrones? There are plenty of religions and gods, but no generic good guy ones that I recall.
>>56629914Mostly the Lord of light and his cult
>>56629942The Red God is neutral at the very best. He provides shadowy assassins at the cost of human sacrifice by burning. The only thing it has going for it is alternative is that The Great Other is a thousand times worse.
>>56627210Life, creation, creativity. Darkness is usually defined as destruction, death, the end, there as the light typically is always symbolic of the continuation.
>>56627210Sol Invictus is the one true answer.
>>56628122I made this and started to work on art assets and then I had to get surgery done because of a back injury and never did pick it back up.
>>56627682>>56627727I think the Ancestor was actually being literal here. "The Light" IS the promise of safety, it is the giver of hope. Hope, of course, won't stop a blade. But it allows you to do so yourself. "God helps those who help themselves" and all that. That would be pretty thematic for the setting, the only source of good in the world is utterly powerless...depending on how you look at it.
>>56629942Lord of Light is very far from "THE Light". For starters, he has an actual name, and it's R'hllor. It's also not a generic religion - it works on burnings and prophecies. Temple of R'hllor also has a slave army. >>56630285Look at this heathen, probably didn't even burn anyone in his life
>What is the light?It's literally light. People often forget how people born before electricity would live in darkness with terrible methods of illunination. The light is literally a holy thing that drives away the night time, feeds plants, helps you find your way.Creatures of the darkness are terrified of the light, even being destroyed by pure sunlight. In my setting, the reason there are dungeons is because they spontaneously grow in darkness, old cellars stretching into corridors and monsters forming and spawning and breeding. The light is what stops this, it's literally a battle of light vs darkness.I hadn't considered tying it into my setting this much, but this thread gave me some ideas, thanks OP.
>>56628668Fear not the dark, my friend.And let the feast, begin.
>>56629942yeah as other posters pointed out you're actually pretty off-base with that one.The lord of light in asoiaf is more of a god of fire than generic wow-tier holy light Catholicism expy. His servants are cruel and largely feared because they burn people alive to fuel black magic. Hardly what I'd call "The Light."
>>56630565>>56630604>>56630631What in the fuck are you doing?Stahp.Weird triple-postings aside, I like that idea. If you have it within your heart to risk your hide for your fellow man in the name of the Light, you can channel it to perform miracles.Break with faith and act immorally and you lose it. Y'know, the Paladin thing.
>>56628469>>56628598One of the religions in my game is the Candle in the Storm, which is in large part light-focused. But ultimately, the light is an incomplete credo that only functions as a complement to the other parts of the religion.Adherents of the Candle in the Storm divide the world into two parts, the Candle, and the Storm. The Candle is the light of civilisation flickering in the dark of the wilderness. It focuses on the sanctity of hearth and home, the power of the community, and the importance of accumulating knowledge and wisdom. Powerful devotees can manifest it directly as light and fire.But the other aspect of the philosophy is just as important; the Storm is the wild, untamed world just outside the firelight, where the elements rage and rule. The Storm teaches that the strength of the community is founded on the strength of the individual, and that individual and community both only survive and grow stronger through struggle. Powerful devotees can manifest this through invocations of wind, thunder, lighting, and rain, as well as through communion with the spirits of the wild places.While the Candle represents all of the good things that make human life more than the savage existence of an animal, the Storm is the tempering force you must constantly push back and test yourself against in order to let civilisation exist at all. So while adherents of the philosophy might focus on one or the other, every member strives to balance them. Even the bookish scholars who keep their culture's greatest libraries try to train with weapons and wayfinding to a minimum of proficiency, and even the coarsest, wildest hunters and warriors who spend weeks at a time away from civilisation try to read a minimum of scholarly texts to improve their minds.
>>56630697Sounds very House of Leaves.
The Light is what most people think when they think of The Force. It's this ever present psychic energy field that is at once sentient and silent, capable of performing miracles for those with the will and focus to draw on it. It intervenes rarely, and is linked to all life.The Darkness is like the Dark Side: fueled by hatred and the lure of quick power.
>>56630850>His servants are cruel>Implying Thoros is cruel >Implying Moqorro is cruel>Implying Melisandre is cruel
>>56627210You’re mostly talking entirely about Warcraft here since most settings actually just use deities, straight-up.“The Light” in Warcraft is a philosophical concept of the inner goodness and decency of humanity and willpower can grant you strength, using by Alliance priests and paladins and such.That said, The Light is basically about internal confidence in what you are doing as being the best thing for the collective people, so a bad person who genuinely thinks 100% that he is doing the right thing not just for himself but for many others can tap into and use The Light. This is actually rarer then you might think, because true zealots who get nothing whatsoever out of their crusades are relatively rare, and a lot of people who abuse religious stuff like that simply make excuses to themselves later. To use The Light you have to believe without faltering and with no negative emotions (as in you can’t just be doing it for revenge) that you are correct in your actions, which means if there’s a nasty irrational genocidal guy who can use The Light then he is quite likely just a few steps from being totally insane since he believes in his actions 100% and is not making any internal justifications at all, he’s just THAT fucking committed.
>>56628836Wrong! Kingdom Hearts is light!
What are some Holidays that worshippers of The Light enjoy?Also what the fuck is all saints day from DD?inb4 depends on the setting
>>56627210Light represents surety. it removes the uncertainty of the dark. We can perceive what is. It allows us to understand the world around us, and gives it form. Without light, nothing is concrete, in some ways nothing exists because for us reality is perception based.The Light is often equated with The Sun, greatest source of light. The Sun, in addition to providing light, sustains crops and gives life to the earth. Even before we understood photosynthesis, people more or less sussed out that sun = things grow. Therefore the Sun came to be equated with birth, sustenance, growth, life.So the light gives us life. It gives us food. It provides for us, and it defines the world in which we live. Why wouldn't you worship it as a God?
>>56627672Name one setting, then.
>>56631750>Also what the fuck is all saints day from DD?I'm guessing the DD-verse saints are just people who accomplished great things with/in the name of the Light.
>>56631000Don't slander your prince like that, peasant.
>>56627210The Light began as a being of Illumination. Before it, man stumbled in the darkness, groping and fumbling, and could not see truth even if it was in front of him.Then The Light came, and it taught man what is and what is not, what was truth and what was not truth.And yet, some still seek The Darkness, for while light reveals, darkness hides, and some would prefer comfortable lies to painful truth. In this way, we see the coward and the liar as shadows, desperately seeking refuge from The Light.And one day, may we be able to walk into the light without shame, and to do so let us act thusly:We will not lie, even if the truth is painful.We shall not kill or destroy without a valid reason.We shall not take joy in another's pain, but strive to be fair and just.We shall not judge how one is born, but how one acts.We shall understand blind obedience causes one to stumble, a true disciple asks and seeks truth.*We shall not engage in sorcery nor alchemy, and accept the world as it is.*Revised after the illumination and fasting of St. Brian. The new code is thus:When we use sorcery and alchemy, we shall not proclaim ourselves gods, but humble students of The Light, and never fall to the dread and loathsome thing that is Diabolism.We shall respect pleasures of the flesh to be done with consent between those of age, and shall condemn the rapist and the child-luster.We shall not take what is not ours, nor use force to claim unearned spoils.We shall respect every seventh day of the week by showing kindness to our loved ones and the animals that abide by us.
>>56629730So if the sun god split himself into a million fragments to make star gods, does that mean it's always night in your setting?
>>56632250"All Saints Day" is described as a holiday. The event of which is represented in the pic related of >>56628745But what is it?
>>56627210Is there any setting where "the light" is actually the evil one, and well known to be evil by the general population?
>>56632535The only time I have actually seen "The Light" being evil, and not just followers of it being assholes was in fact in one of the weirder seasons of the Yu-gi-oh anime as a kid.Light wanted to destroy all darkness because "Hey, darkness is bad" and didn't seem to either realize or care that all dark being destroyed would fuck the world up or something like that.
best Light imo is glorantha's which is just Fire stripped of its heat. You can gain it by giving up your own fire or by meditating for decades at a time. While it has a lot of the same things going on elsewhere in the thread, Light isn't automatically good and one of the most evil Chaos gods uses Light to Illuminate your soul and turn you into a psychopath.
>>56627941>>56627814The same "problem" exists with the Occultist, whose power is more directly from the Heart. I'm pretty sure that Heart = Light is a valid theory, and the flagellant, nay, the entire faith being masochistic and suffering focused reinforces that
>>56631750>>56632529"All Saints Day" is an existing event IRL. It's sorta like day of the dead, at places where it's celebrated, with the more religious types praying to the saints, and everyone visiting family graves to light candles and stuff. It's held sometime around Halloween.
The One, also known as the form of the good. It is the purest essence of being that gives reality to all things, and which all things are a flawed reflection of; even the gods themselves are just aspects of this single perfect unity. For more information, check out Plato's dialogues and Plotinus' Enneads.
>>56628963My church stand in is half hinduist and worshipping a dude everyone knows is a normal human that achieved godhood by kicking ass. Is that good enough?>>56632535It's not really well known, but WoW seems to be trying to steer in that direction.But I think it's more common to have the light be villanious in secret, where it is very authoritorian and bent on ruling the world. The church hiding a greater truth about the setting is also a thing I believe. >tfw the light is just another force bent on world domination, but has already won.>>56632718It's the day before Halloween, at least in Germany.
>>56632856>But I think it's more common to have the light be villanious in secretYeah, it's pretty common when played like that, I just think it would be interesting to play with the concept and make "the light" overtly bad to the point where folk worship "the darkness" which is actually fairly benevolent.Closest I've seen is Hollow Knight where "the light" is trying to reduce all bug kind to mindless animals.
>>56632879Isn't that Dark Souls?
>>56628963I usually go with Platonism. I have a particular preference for settings with an ancient or classical flavor.
>>56632905No, Dark Souls has it reversed, with darkness being unthinking, unfeeling, personality-less bliss, and light bringing disparity to it.Basically, if you like being a thinking-feeling actual human being instead of a mindless zombie, you want the Light to exist.
>>56632879Actually, I just remembered a setting. Andor's Trail is a mobile game where dominant religion for where the players live is the Shadow. The light isn't overtly a villain, but seems to be another religion that's hostile to the shadow and it's followers.Sadly it's just depicted as a normal church.I mean I like to avoid Good Light in my settings, but it's usually up to the players' decision which side is better. The light is authoritarian and fatalistic, but it is assuring and reliable. A paladin that invokes the Light to hold the line while his comrades flee will. not. fall. But his life will be consumed and his body crumble as soon as the power surge is over.Meanwhile, the dark is fickle and possesive, but also caring and accepting. A theoretical dark paladin won't die, he could be turned to mush and the dark still wouldn't let go of him. He'll rip and tear his way out of any situation, consuming the souls of his enemies for energy. But the thing that comes out won't be quite human anymore. >>56632905That's not even remotely close to Dark Souls. The simple version is that the Flame is dying and humanity is used as a fuel to keep it going just a bit longer. While humans are aligned to the dark in this setting, humanity as we know it only came to happen after the primal things were imbued with fire.
>>56627210A nice twist is using "The Light" as a generic eldritch god.It grants knowledge beyond time, space and dimensions. Accelerating growth in specific areas like magic, technology and whathaveyou.The caveat is that it's edging ever closer to the world and it's mostly just preparing the world to be devoured.>Resistance cults whom can se the light for what it truly is will be the defacto terrorists of the setting and be branded the bad guys by the church and general populace.>The light blinds its followers, figuratively.>For maximum hard-mode; The concept of darkness itself is evil. Letting your torches go out is considered a sin.
>>56632535I've tinkered with a setting like that. Light is dangerous and corruptive, and its worshipers form a cult. It comes from Heaven, a place of light and fire where worshipers of Light go, and is represented by fiery angels of terrifying beauty. It's opposed by Void, an all-consuming things that occasionally spawns demons which are nearly as dangerous as angels, but more subtle. Humanity is naturally somewhere in the middle, coming from the sea of spirits and flowing into the afterlife. Mages are generally regarded with suspicion, because to learn and use magic, you have to consult grimoires, which requires light, even if it's usually no more than a candle(and, to be fair, lightbringers have more than their fair share of mages). Most of humanity spends their entire days in darkness, so when they see even a dim light, it can be quite wondrous and terrifying experience.
>>56627648It's a big deal in Wheel of Time.
>>56627648There are people who were only exposed to WoW and Star Wars and think this is how all fantasy looks like
The Light in Warcraft is a primordial form of magic, with elementals and what not. The Light itself is merely a form of magic, but it's unique in the distinction that you have to believe that you yourself are using it for good. You become unable to use it if you don't think this yourself, which also leads to 100% evil people using the Light as long as they believe that they are good. The Light is also the opposite of Shadow, and Shadow is what animates the Undead, so therefore the Light is by far the most harmful magic an Undead can experience. Undead can use the light, but it feels to them as if burning alive whenever invoking it. Light also rejuvenates their dead flesh after a lot of use, so it's not only painful, but they also regain feeling in their body. They can feel maggots burrowing through their arm, spiders gnawing on their brain, smell their own rot, etcetera. Since it is also a force of magic, there are sentient Light elementals made up out crystalized Light.That's the Warcraft Light at least.
>>56627946If anyone here's read the Mignolaverse, I'd compare the Light to Vril if it is a force, or, if it truly has a personification, to Shonchin and Oannes: it teaches those who follow it how to wield power, not through pacts with outer beings (like the Occultist), but by channeling the secret fire of the Universe that chases away the dark; even if it only burns for a time, and the dark is far older and endless.
>>56628963Duh. Because medieval fantasy's roots are in Arthurian knights and Charlemagne's paladins.
>>56633070>>56632535Less well known, but definitivly Evil.>The paladins of Light are secretly blackguards.
>>56632535In the Scion role-playing game by White Wolf, one of the Titans (asshole ubergods who manifest various primal concepts) is Aten, the Lord of Light: unlike the other Titans, which have multiple avatars, Aten is singular, and embodies cold, inhuman purity: he desires burn away the World of Men and leave behind only a realm of perfect symmetry, unceasing light, and hollow shells eternally chanting praise unto Aten.
>>56633131Yeah. Who the fuck has heard of the Iliad, the Odyssey or the Aeneid?
>>56633178Remind me, what was the big religious organization with a hand in everything in those works again?If your fantasy is based on those, then it's not going to have a "teh Church" in the first place. If it does have a "teh Church", then obviously it's going to be the medieval Church because it's based on medieval knights.
What sorts of depictions of a god of light lends toward the more weird and neutral?Something maybe like nuclear light?
>>56633239>Hey asshole, why did you kill this genocidal maniac who tried to kill you since before you even knew of him? He was a gud boi all along and you're shit for defending yourself.
>>56627210The Light is more a force than a deity, it's tenants are simple; combat the dark and scour away thise affected in body and mind whatever it takes, by sword, by fire by searing brand, and when the brightness of the light makes even commoners cast dark shadows, all the more work to do.
>>566272101. The Gods have fucked off.2. The above doesn't matter.3. Nothing matters.4. So everything matters.5. People matter.6. Go fuck up some evil.
>>56627697>WarcraftThe Light in Warcraft is pretty well defined, actually. It's a school of magic that responds to one's sense of conviction and duty rather than precise manipulations or contracts a la arcane or demonic magic. It's common in the hearts of dogmatic or religious institutions because it's that sort of framework the required mindset thrives in.
>>56633396>3. Nothing matters.>4. So everything mattersHuh? Just because existentialism says something doesn't make it a logically coherent function
>>56628272>If a god is the embodiment of the concept of light, then they have to be good too if we follow this line of thinking.
>>56630952>Implying Thoros is cruel He’s an exception. Thoros himself acknowledges that he’s a pretty shitty priest.>Implying Moqorro is cruelHe convinced Victarion to cut the throat of an innocent maester.>Implying Melisandre is cruelShe advocates burning 12-year-olds alive. What exactly is your definition of cruel?
>>56633187Not true. Unless you follow the Sword Logic, then the Light wielding Traveler Spawn has defeated your highest leader, thereby proving the Sword Logic false by its own rules. That would make The Light villainous.The Traveler is not Benevolent or Malicious, but should not be trusted. Never ask for anything! Never for anything, and especially from those who are stronger than you. They'll make the offer themselves, and give everything themselves.
Awe was the first woman. She was the most beautiful thing to every exist. From her every pore was released heavenly, glowing life. Her skin was made of jewels and diamonds, and it is believed that gemstones found in the Earth are parts of her, which is why they are held in such high regard.Awe was the first woman and she gave birth to the world. When she did, she saw it in its entirety, and realized it was just a little bit more beautiful then she was. So she smiled, and died.Priests who worship "the light" are worshipping the light of Awe, who is usually depicted as a glowing female silhouette. A few devout priests and heroes have sometimes seen a vision of her hand, foot, cheek, or lock of hair. From that tiny piece of her, they feel a strange peace for their entire lives, because this is how beautiful she is. This is what the Light is.
>>56633461To be fair, the Naaru are stuck in a universe where the writers have to constantly do back flips and retcon things to force drama. This nonsensical video shouldn't have even been possible, since the mere presence of the Naaru was enough to keep Illidan and his forces at bay during the Burning Crusade.
>>56633479TBC was a weird time when Blizz was still just tossing out characters from WC3.The situation has been clarified to have been a thing where Illidan during TBC was mainly just fighting the Legion and bolstering his forces. Kael'thas and Vashj did a lot of dicky stuff of their own volition, but Illidan never had interest in taking Shattrath.What they seem to be trying to do is establish that, in that universe, any extreme is bad. WoD gave up a huge bit of plot that likely would've helped to save the expansion just to establish the idea that Primal Life is just as fucked and destructive as anything else.
>>56627210In true Darkest dungeon fashion the light is unfathomable as the horrors below I imagine
>>56633522But the light doesn't inspire madness and writhy tentacle-y things, and most of it's worshippers seem pretty rigid/regimented/well prepared and trained.Wassup with that in relation to your theory?
I like the idea of "The Light" as the generic good guy religion or God, but how do you justify or talk about other Gods or religions in the setting? Half the fun of a setting is being able to have multiple cultures with different gods, some of those gods maybe even running around like Zeus and co. and causing problems.
>>56633540Just have the god of light play the straight man to the other gods.>"Oh, come on, did you guys really just make an entire city collapse into debauchery? Have some self control.">"Stop tearing holes between this world and the underworld, it's causing problems.">"I know you hate being warm, but consider all the peasants you're freezing to death with those blizzards."
>>56633254As cool as the windchimes are, they don't fit into what I'm going for.
>>56633463Actually that “innocent” Maester was probably the same Maester that poisoned their collective father.Victarion’s just a fucking idiot fencepost of a man, by admission of the author himself, who just cannot use reasoning at all.>”Hey Uncle, we need to ally against Euron, we both know he’s crazy and politically we can support each other.”>”NO I WILL NOT MARRY YOU YOU ARE MY NIECE IT IS PERVERSE.”He’s such a flaming moron that he could not even grasp the concept that she wasn’t talking about marrying him at all.
>>56633540The Light could be a lot of things, a specofic idol with no avatar, to fit into a proper pantheon amongst other gods, or perhaps something even higher than gods.Hell, maybe the Good Aligned gods of a setting could be servants to the light, and people worship them as aspects of that divine source.A Paladins chosen god could be "The General of The Light", a Light channeling druid might worship "The Shaman of The Light", something along those lines.
>>56633610>Actually that “innocent” Maester was probably the same Maester that poisoned their collective father.There’s no evidence that Kerwin was poisoning Victarion. Vic just accused him of it because none of the treatments for his infected hand were working.I like how uncomplicated Victarion is. It’s a fun change of pace.
>>56627210I always immediately suspect that they're holding back the detail in-universe to sound appealing to as many people as possible. Probably they're praying to something awful if they hide its name so they can lure more lepers.
>>56631750>Also what the fuck is all saints day from DD?In Italy it's on November 1st and it's a holiday in honor of any saint (even those not canonized). In Sicily, in particular, children "get" gifts from their dearly departed and the following day, the Day of the Dead, we visit the graves to thank, pray and remember them.
>>56633539Look at the Crusader's backstory art, then think about how The Light might not be an inherent force of good.
>>56633539Clear the Darkest Dungeon. You will see things as they really are.
>>56633638Second best character that never appeared in the show, solidly after Strong Belwas.
>>56633676The Light is probably not responsible for the misdeeds and cruelty of it's followers, I don't think The Light demanded that the Crusader choose the Crusade over his family.Maybe, it's up to interpretation.
>>56633423Remember what Beta Ray Bill said: If all that matters is this life, then work to make it matter. Or something.
>>56633738I knew I had this lurking somewhere in my image folder.
>>56633768That's some good shit man.Keeps me comfy.
>>56633738>>56633768But there are actual gods and afterlives in the Marvel universe though...
>>56627210As much as I enjoyed Darkest Dungeon, the existence of the Light seems to contradict the nature of the rest of the universe in that game.Not that I'm necessarily looking for an explanation, but once you've established it's elder gods and planetary eggs all the way down, who's up there granting spells to the faithful?
>>56633415Chronicles removed all sense of mystery from that franchise. I miss when the Light was basically a quasi-Buddhist Force and the Shadow was a not-quite-evil-but-dickish LaVeyan mirror of it.
>>56633461>Implying that Naaru did anything wrongIllidan would have ended up like that light-infused drealord.Now what is Illidan doing right now? Oh yeah, snacking on Sargeras because Illidan suffers no ill-effects from fel-exposure as he slowly becomes Green Asmodeous of the nine Twisting hells.
>>56634731DD's Light is a suffering based religion much like christianity.
>>56632777>777The One is confirmed, praise be to The One.
>>56634745Chronicles also just dumped Goblins as being failed experiments of Mimiron, the same Watcher who made Gnomes, when Goblins could have been super cool chaos-based offshoots of the Old Gods, evolved from Gilgoblins.
>>56630883That's a cool religious principle. I especially like the name.
>>56632535In Kingdom Death the "suns" are actually radiant sky horrors that tend to eat entire settlements more often than not.
>>56634041His point is that he's met them and none of them are worth devotion and worship and that none of the places they reside are places he'd call heaven.He's saying that if that is what the higher planes are like they need to make the mortal ones better.
>>56628272A "tenant" is someone who lives in a building. The word you're trying to use is "tenet"
>>56627210I don't think I've ever specifically used "The Light", except in a fantasy version of SW, but I do have some good forces that could kind of fall under the same purpose storywise.It usually refers to a group of gods or spirits that are weaker than the antagonistic gods or spirits but work together and with humans. Essentially, I treat them as the Not!Aedra. Alternatively, it explicitly doesn't refer to any being or group in particular, but is rather just straight up code for 'our side, which is the good side'. I usually use this for a setting with any powerful gods being deceased or unable to properly interfere with the world. Any religion that uses this form tends to treat the world as being largely autonomous; gods and spirits may have set things in motion, but by the point the plot takes place there's no one actually running everything. Its like someone started up a machine and walked away. In that context, "The Light" can also refer to either proper maintenance of the metaphorical machine (so, 'live according to these rules or reality will collapse on our shoulders') for darker settings or to the proper way to live to get into the good afterlife for neutral or light settings (in which case it basically turns into Not!Buddhism or Not!Pelagianism depending on how the aesthetics of the religion are).
>>56631750>What are some Holidays that worshippers of The Light enjoy?Solstices and equinoxes give you four per year already.
>>56627210I generally run it as "it seems whatever gods one worships, so long as they align with certain base principles, it channels the Light. Even the godless, when possessed of unnatural conviction or inspired so by it, can channel the Light so long as it is also in accordance with them. Many powerful beings consider themselves gods of Light, angelic beings, et cetera because their conviction and power is significant enough for them to grant blessings through Light innately, but the theory that's ultimately correct is this: One of the few actual, literal, God of Gods Creators of the Universe imparted Light (capital L is important) as part of its divine will, and discorporated entirely as a result of seeding the universe with life. So too is this the case with the Darkness. In both, you'll find the highest echelons of beings in tune with these forces are, while they know it not, possessed with the idea of reviving their ancient deity through the collection of enough Light (or Darkness) and expelling enough of the latter to throw the balance off. This was not an intended effect of either deity's workings, but an unintended effect of their discorporation.
>>56628935>There is no power who is a real power who has not conquered suffering and no power greater than any power that has conquered suffering. To extinguish the fires of the passions should be the searcher's first and foremost goal. In truth there is no hell, no power and no heaven. All these things are illusory, unsatisfactory and shall pass away in the fullness of time.>m'lady
The Light in Darkest Dungeon is also the Sacred Flame.Which is implied to be something that lures in the heroes only to burn them, like moths.After all, the hymn says "we are the flame," only for them to be revealed the truth.
>>56627210In my homebrew it's just the old notRoman fire cult taking over trappings from the new notChristian faith after the latter got wiped out by trying to resurrect jesus and zombie-apocalypse-ing half the continent instead.It's archaic divination practices and autistic ritualism combined with fanatic devotion and persecution of other faiths. Makes for a great storyhook and interaction point for characters.Yes, that's all shamelessly stolen from Dominions. sue me, Illwinter, I also use your soundtracks as background.
>>56635543Well, pay them another 50 bucks and they won't care.
>>56627210On the surface level, it's a blanket term used by the biggest faith in the eastern kingdoms as a generic term for 'All the good gods', since holy men from all around tend to pass through town.In reality it's the name used by the soul-eating horror that lives in the Church's catecombs that takes the form of an amorphous light with no real source, and the residual faith of passing worshipers is all that sates it at present. Only the Abbot and his closest confident know this.
>>56635682The God That Glows?
>>56635708On less pious days it emerges in the middle of the day to devour some poor unfortunate in the middle of the street in broad daylight. No one knows what to think since no one can actually see the thing in the day, so it looks like someone just spontaneously collapses in on himself out of nowhere.The Abbot fears that if word got out, the thing might deign to move elsewhere, to other, more populated regions.
Light dispels Darkness, bringing knowledge against ignorance.Mind you, enlightenment doesn't have to be scientific knowledge. It may very well be just teachings about morals, laws and so forth.Light brings... wait for it... enlightenment.
>>56627653In DD I've always been fond of the idea the Light is an actual benevolent god looking out for humanity, it may not have created them and it may not be able to influence the world nearly on the same level the Heart can but it does exist and it is trying to helpMind you I also like the idea that while the Heart doesn't (intentionally) lie about the inevitability of its victory, it's words are colored with it's own hubristic pride and it convinced itself this time was just a flukebut that's cause I like my elderitch horrors to also be ground under the nihilistic inevitably of failure and fate
>>56635828My headcanon for DD is that the Heart gets stalled until mankind gets space travel and planet killers.
>>56632483Nah man. I shoulda been more clear. It was one really fuck huge star that split into smaller stars. Each varying in size and strength like the real thing. The main setting is a planet orbiting a medium sized sun/god. The power of any given God is based on their brightness, so size and relative distance is important. People worship the stars, and many view them like patron saints. You pray to that star, and they give minor blessings. Because stars are much less potent than the sun, they can offer more direct quantifiable help. If the sun worked that kind of delicate work, they'd probably just blow it up. Don't bother Jesus with finding your keys, you ask Saint Anthony. Don't bother Saint Agatha with saving souls and exercising demons, that is not her wheelhouse.
>>56627610Exactly. Tolkien was a devout Christian, so his fantasy was suffused with monotheistic ideas about good and evil. Those harmonize well with ideas about (idealized ahistorical) crusades and demons-vs-priest confrontations, which also come from Christianity. Game devs want that. We may argue about the specifics, but we yearn for good vs evil confrontations. But they don't want to offend anyone, either. And if you get too specific about your theology, you'll get yelled at by someone. And many fantasy properties sell in many cultural markets. So Light is a way to create something that won't offend anyone, can say whatever the author or GM wants it to say at any given moment, but still feels superficially like a completish theology. Various forms of pantheism (jms/GRRM) and "my cause is Life" amount to the same thing.
>>56633045>>56634070so only video games by people not known for quality lore?
>>56635875Honestly even somewhat modernish tech could fuck it up, probably not kill it, but fuck it up reliably
>>56633470If so, whence the darkness?
Honestly kinda diggin' the "Light Flows from an Eldritch, unknowable being" angle.It got me thinking, and what if Light isn't directly coming from some eldritch idol, what if it's a construct built by one such that became enamored with the small creatures it sees wandering about on one or more worlds and their definition of "Good"In the early days of this beings creation, there were massive gaps in it, so the being tweaked and experimented, and eventually as the small creatures grappled with the Light, and as they came to understand, so did the being that constructed the light, and the Light grew, surpassing it's creator and humbling it with it's brilliance.Both parties unkowingly are teaching the other, a strange form of enlightenment where both parties, while unknowable to the other, are still teaching and being taught through the Light.Mortal and Immortal, Possible and Impossible, Mundane and Maddening, all are equal in the glow of the Light.
>>56637793Kind of what I had going, but the eldritch being had no idea the humans were there they just happened to be in tune with it's radiant, all pervasive light and able to use it.To humans and elves the Light resonated with them and felt like a soothing choir to the mind the more in tune they were, to others like the dwarfs and merfolk it was unnoticeable unless harnessed and directed in some way. To the fiends and goblins it was irritating and toxic, which is why they hide underground or only come out at night.I should note that only the fiends are outright evil(or of any outright alignment) as they are actually not a specific race but a catchall term for things spawned from another eldritch horror (an infant one) hiding in the world from the radiance of the light eldritch being (to whom the infant is not worthy of attention).
>>56627210It's fantasy and fantasy is all about Good versus Evil.Unless you're autistic, I guess.
>>56633506Illidan literally tasks Kael'thas to enslave the Broken.He's a fucking asshole.
>>56631898WarcraftDark SoulsThe WjtcherASOIAF
>>56634965Goblins were always "Rejects who became smart due to magic rocks"
>>56634041Beta Ray Bill is literally as strong as Thor at base level.To him, Asgardians are not Divine beings to be worshipped but Oath-brothers.
>>56638218>Dark Souls.That's Fire you moron, not "Light" A literal flame that keeps everything from turning to Darkness and sinking into the Abyss.
>>56638344Not that anon but do miracles come from the Fire? I thought lightning and whatnot predated it.
>>56635875From what I guess, DD's Heart of Darkness is actually based on the removed Berserk Concept of the Heart of Darkness.It's a being born from the innate negative feelings of Humanity, and propagates to fill the void of what Humans blame those feelings on.Sort of an Anti-God. Bad things must happen randomly to even the nicest people because there must be a plan made by an unknown god. Suffering must have a reason, so the Heart of Darkness makes a reason.
>>56638381They do.Miracles are recitations of Stories, Usually the gods.Lightning is drawn from the Soul of Gwyn, which Gwyn took from the first flame.ALL magic is drawn from the flame, even Dark Magic, because if the flame dies out, Darkness goes with it, and everything sinks into the Abyss.
>>56627210Are you retarded? The Light SHOULDN'T be anything. Each device depends on everything around it, and to treat cliches like this is utterly useless and probably gay.Imagine being such a genre-guzzling shitter that you literally think in cliches.FURTHERMORE, worldbuilding dorks like me have a raging hard-on for vaguely defined world elements. They are excellent in the right contexts. FUCK you OP, right up your colon.
>>56633144Understatement of the year?>>56634893No.Even less so when it juggles between Divinity, Humanity and The Flame.And lesser sources of power.Even more so, when Gwyn(pantheon head of dominant religion) decides its a good idea to postpone doomsday.
>>56629503My pet version of the sun is a god whose form is a strange, vaguely reptilian fetus in orbit of the planet on which the game takes, who never is seen because the "sun" is his divine aura.Well, either that or the sun's just a spherical planar gate to the intersection of Positive Energy and Elemental Fire.
>>56638857Not him but light is pretty clearly in the wrong in Dark Souls.>literally called Dark Souls
>>56638914Neither the Fire or the Dark are in the wrong.
>>56638908Oh yeah? Well MY sun is a burnt city that doesn't actually move across the sky, it just burns a whole through reality causing it to slide through the Infinite Onion. Also it's the coalescing newborn for which the entire metaverse was created as nursery (this is obviously mutually exclusive with it being a burnt city).>>56638953Dark did NOTHING wrong. Fire was a mistake, Gwyn is a godly dick who has just enough honour in him to run away from the terrible reality he created, the player character is provably the best guy in the setting.This is discarding Dark Souls II and III, because they ruin the canon.
>>56638914>The world exists>Underworld is filled with zombies>Overworld is a underchanging landscape of eternal dragons>Humanity exists as a contrast between Their Natural State, and The Fire>Gods exists as a more powerful version of humans>The First Gods ally together and burn the surface world, so they can settle it>Civilization ends up spreading too thin, spreading the flame too far>Contrast gets too weak, and humans reverts to zombiesDark Souls is Taoism X Norse Mythology.Bonus points include faux Odin(Velka)Literal yggdrasilGood usage of HelExtreme amounts of iconography, something myth games never even touchLarge pantheon, even if 90% is long dying
>>56639029Dark != pre-Fire. Pre-Fire was formless -- there was no greater or lesser, hotter or colder, because there was no contrast. Now we have light, and we have dark, and we can never again have the time of dragons.Light has lived too long, and threatens to become the new time of dragons. Of course it never could, but it has a similar effect; nothing changes. Note, in Dark Souls, everything that matters has already been done.Light is doomed. Begin the cycle again, and you simply hurl what humans remain into another cycle of misery. Expunge the flame, and something changes. From an individual point of view, you have accomplished something; already this redeems dark, because light allows nobody to accomplish anything. But from a mass point of view, it is also superior; you change things for the mass of humans and undead. It may not be better, it may even be worse, but it will be different.Of course, that may all be utterly untrue. It's possible Dark is simply Light's reverse face, and everything is gnostic/buddhist (escape the cycle bro). Serpents need to be decapitated. At both ends.
>>56639177Your worldview is shallowDouble linerFear ye your own ignorance. Go home and cry to vaati's subreddit
>>56639209This is vaati's subreddit.
>>56637793Funny enough Christian God makes a lot more sense when you imagine him as an eldritch horror riding on a chariot where the wheels are eyeball covered angels
>>56627653Why the fuck does Holy Water, the vestals healing and bell lightning, the crusaders scripture and the flagellants various bullshit work?
>>56639273You forgot the multitude of Blessed Shrines around The Estate, Light-Related Town events, Light-Related trinkets and it's effects on the Undead.
>>56639273Some other eldritch horror intercepts their prayers and is like "dude, you hate that faggot? I hate that faggot too! Let's hate that faggot together"
>>56639177Wrong.Dark and Light both die with the fire. This is why the Darkwraiths wish to usurp the flame, to let it sputter into almost nothingness.With the fire completely dead, the cycle of Fire and Dark ends, and everything sinks into the Abyss, to then return to the age of Archtrees.The Last scene of Dark Souls 3's last DLC shows this.The Ringed city is the first "Place" everything returns to the roots of the world, to be submerged in the Deep Waters.
>>56639362"Dude those Skeletons with the wine are assholes!">I KNOW RIGHT???*cue smiting montage*
>>56627653It's not fake, but what I think that statement is meant to imply is that there isn't a unifying force or deity that controls, supplies, or claims responsibility for the Light. I feel like the Light is an extension of will, faith, and the power of belief manifesting in reality. While the god might not actually exist, the Vestal still channels their will to heal her party, even if a deity doesn't have a say in the matter.
>>56639273The power of belief, conviction, and the extension of will made manifest in the material world. Basically:>"I believe this will happen, therefore, it will happen, even if it doesn't come into being the precise way I think it does."
>>56639362>>56640258The Bro of a Thousand Thumbs Up, Lord of the Kegstand, Who Mans The Wing
>>56641023The Beer And The One Who Brought It, Father Of Rolling, Master Of The Red Cup
>>56641023>>56641064>The Virgin Cultist>The Chad Priest
This is a good and interesting thread that is very relevant to my interests for two reasons:1. Is that I don't know much about the Darkest Dungeon lore beyond what's explicitly stated or obvious and had always questioned their relationship with the ambiguous "light" n' so forth. Especially because it's explicitly stated in the game that organic life is propagated from the heart that basically seeks to take back what it spawned to make itself greater , so it's interesting to hear about what this vague third party force of good is doing or what it could be about- combating or assisting mortals to fight things grander then themselves. 2. I've been using a "savage world" kind of setting with dinosaurs, dead gods, numerous monster races, few humans, where there isn't really a supernatural fight of good vs evil, but a constant chaotic, swarming, personally motivated conflict of survival and relevance between various mortal and monstrous gods. So the idea of Light and Darkness are 'fresh' and interesting to me, which may sound ironic, but I just like reading about how it's done in other settings.Love it, love the aesthetic, love the more intrapersonal dynamics of it, but couldn't imagine how I'd place it in my own current stand-by without ruining the settings themes and aesthetic. Have a silly stock photo to show my appreciation.
>>56627727"Awash in blood and delusion, he bears the burden of a thousand lifetimes"> Delusion
>>56627210The truth is there is no "The Light." There's just us. We're all the light there is. So we have to carry the light with us wherever we go, or there won't be any. On the other hand, so long as someone's carrying the light, it'll never go out. The Light is the aspiration to make the world a better place, the courage to imagine greatness, and the wherewithal to stand your ground against evil. It's the strength we all have but never really know about until we need it. Whenever someone's filling themselves with vigor to stand against dark fate, whether it's banishing a devil with a hymn and a prayer or facing down death itself and saying "Not today," that's The Light at work. [spoilers]tl;dr The Light is Spiral Power[/spoilers]Maybe someone gave it to us as our birthright a long time ago, but it's ours now.
>>56633470There are those who call themselves the Creator. But it is not the case that there was a creation for before Light there was always Dark. Indeed such a "Creator" must by necessity not be the first and greatest but the first to fall. Awe is not the first creator but instead the first to fall.>>56635427>Prince Siddartha was a FedoraReally if you want real fedora heterodox Indian religion you'd have to go with Charvaka and Ajnana schools.
>>56636482>>56642397Yes, Awe was the first woman but Darkness was the first man. I don't have a good name for him yet.
>>56633396>>56633423It's not that Nothing Matters therefore Everything Matters. It's that nothing inherently matters so go make your own meaning. Also we're social beings so other's meanings and well being tend to matter to us....so go be an existentialist Paladin and fuck up some evil!!!
>>56642397I mean, the principles of proto-buddhism that Siddartha creates are basically that everything is illusion. I'm not sure he's saying that the gods don't exist, but rather that you shouldn't concern yourself with them or attach yourself to ideas about heaven and hell any more than you should concern yourself with any other attachment.Then again, I'm not buddhist scholar, so I could certainly be wrong.
>>56641169Glad to hear you're digging it fampai.As for the pic...>Local Church of the Light starts a misguided advertising campaign to attract worshippers.
It's a way of justifying having clerics without having gods or bothering to actually write religion because god forbid we have healers that aren't associated with religion for some fucking reason.
>>56639362>>56638388>>56635541>>56634731>>56633539The characters that use the light seem to derive power from suffering in one form or another. What greater facilitator of continued suffering is there but Hope?
>>56635191Already looked it up and corrected myself long before you turned up, faggot.
>>56643043I'd rather be a hopeful fool than a modern "Everything is shit and it won't get better" nihilist.
>>56643217This obviously has no baring in real life, but I was just saying how that view would be feeding this secondary eldritch horror in DD. It "Promises Safety", gives powers to those who spread it's influence, and is a source of hope for the down trodden in this world were the Heart and it's forces are God. Ether you fall over and die feeding the Heart, or you carry on, feeding the Light. Fits very well for the setting.
>>56627761Not at all. It sounds like it is, but the Silver Flame is:A statement of intent regarding Rich Burlew's approach to alignment, being genuinely Lawful Good, responsible for a lot of Lawful Good atrocities with an emphasis on genocides (the Goblin Slayer would approve), and having engaged in outright war with a neighbouring Lawful Good nationA physical manifestation of a very specific power, given that it was created from a Paladin, a bunch of Couatls, and the archdemon that they were imprisoning.Not the generic popular civilized religion, since most people offer praise to the Sovereign Host (which isn't "the Light" either, being a pantheon that actually makes sense and has gods that share worshippers).
>>56632687This. There is nothing above. Everything in Darkest Dungeon IS the Heart. That's what delving into the Dungeon reveals to you.And this is why Darkest Dungeon needs a Gurren Lagann mod.
Often the notion of a Light religion is heavily based in Legalism. But I don't think that's necessary. In my mind, an Antinomial religion of the Light can be just as justified.1. Redemption through forgiveness alone. No penitence or sin offering can atone. Only mercy can redeem.2. The unclean cannot taint the clean. Filth, disease, poverty and disfigurement never makes a person evil. Association with evil creatures and evil persons cannot make a person evil themselves and only evil works themselves do that.3. Piety above rank. You respect legitimated authority but in matters of religion trust your conscience first and foremost above the opinions of others.4. Mortification of the flesh. You deliberately reject purity laws and taboo in favor of a higher purpose and leave yourself unwashed and diseased.5. The world is inherently good. There may be parts of the world that need to be rearranged but there is nothing fundamentally broken and everything has its place and time.
>>56644106>Allowing oneself to carry diseases and endanger othersNurgle you can leave.
>>56632535Real life.>and well known to be evil by the general population?Nevermind.
>>56644319>Not preaching to lepers.It's like you don't even Jesus bro.
>>56644486There is a marked difference between "Preach to the Afflicted"And"Be a source for disease."
>>56641412His delusion is that the blood sorcery he performs is driven by anything but his own masochism.
>>56643217Nietzsche was strongly opposed to nihilism and post-modernism.
>>56638218>WarcraftYes.>Dark SoulsNo.>The WjtcherI cannot judge.>ASOIAFNo.
As the bumps slow down, I gotta ask this one question...Should this thread be archived?
>>56627210Medevial christianity without all the messy arguments For a more thought out version, what about the Sol Invictus cult of Rome which was establishing itself as the dominant faith until it and its aesthetics were absorbed by Christianity
>>56627210Speaking as someone who has no knowledge of Darkest Dungeon beyond how punishing it is as a game, can I get an explanation on its cosmology?
>>56627210In the old way of thinking of the orokaiva people, Light is considered to be a masculine force, for its penetrative aspects. Darkness is considered feminine, for the darkness of the womb in which children grow. The morality of each is ambiguous.As for Warcraft, since that went big in this thread, don't let the people complaining about retcons fool you. I always suspected those crystalline bastards. Never dealing with any of this shit they're allegedly against themselves, eating people's souls every time they fall down a set of stairs, telepathically blasting Liadrin with "love" so she becomes their willing mindslave. Various void creatures with visual similarities to them, that one that talks about eating souls to fuel his ascension from the darkness. The scarlet crusade had been using the Light for evil since Vanilla, there was never any reason to trust those jingly fucks.And the Old Gods! People SAY they're bad, but I bet you like having free will, don't you? Like eating, drinking, sex? Well, if you're a human, dwarf or gnome, you'd better thank the Old Gods for all of that. They are your true creators! Everything you love, your ability to love itself, stems from them! En'othk uulg'shuul! Mh'za uulwi skshgn kar! Ywaq ma phgwa'cul hnakf!! GUL'KAFH AN'QOV N'ZOTH!!!
>>56649616There are various eldritch horrors and powers on the world it takes place on. There's a religion called The Flame and its most devout members can invoke it to heal or damage unholy or undead enemies, but no one's sure what The Flame is actually supposed to be.Spoilers ahead: The ending of Darkest Dungeon reveals that there is an eldritch horror in the middle of the world. This horror is actually a mass of writhing, immortal flesh and all living creatures, including humans, are its offspring. Humans actually look like horrible masses of pulsating flesh, teeth and eyeballs, you just don't see this until you enter the Darkest Dungeon and start seeing things as they really are. Defeating the horror's avatar just delays its inevitable awakening, which will make it burst out of the planet it's caged in and destroy all of humanity. There is speculation that The Flame and 'holy' abilities are actually powers borrowed from another eldritch entity, which is why it's so damaging to other Eldritch horrors.
>>56649744Why would humans not see each other as the legit thing if we ourselves look like that? Wouldn't we all be nightmare creatures together?
>>56649805It's another thing that's not really explained. If I had to speculate, it's because the average human in Darkest Dungeon doesn't really have the ability to comprehend eldritch creatures in their entirety, which would also apply to humans themselves. Maybe they've just evolved to see the world in a certain way. A way which is significantly more pleasant than the truth.
>>56649805Different anon here: the only source of information given that the flesh-monsters are how things "really are" is the ghost of the Ancestor, who turns out to be the Heart of Darkness (the cosmic horror) in disguise, so, IMO, it's more likely that, in journeying into the Darkest Dungeon, the Heir has begun to lose his mind and these visions are a hint at this cosmic truth.
>>56649744>>56649875I really doubt everything just being flesh and nightmarish is "How things really are". It's much more likely that you're just losing your mind at that point. The game never switches over to fleshy nightmare vision, it's small glimpses of it here and there in what I think is supposed to be spooky easter eggs.
>>56639362For some reason I actually really like this idea.Your holy powers aren't actually "holy" but whatever is giving you them hates the same shit as you, so go for it.
>>56650010This is why 5e's celestial pact for warlocks is such fun.
>>56627210>what is the lightTHE PROMISE OF SAFETY
>>56628963>SikhismBECAUSE SINGH WON'T CUT HIS HIPPY HAIR NERD.HE'S GOT A FUCKING KNIFE ON HIM AT ALL TIMES HE COULD AFFORD TO DO SO
>>56649855If humans are eldritch entities doesn't that solve where special powers come from? It's humanities innate eldritch bullshit.
>>56627210In my setting it's a specific thing. If you go to the positive energy plane and climb to it's exalted heights you will find a closed door.Behind that you find a mysterious sphere of light known as "The Source"The goddess of light is a deity because she has control of this font of infinite positive energy. It's the shower head in the bathtub that is the cosmos.On the opposite end there is a drain that is the deepest part of the negative plane.The whole setting is an experiment in top down cosmological world building and deals with big themes like entropy and loss.
>>56638388Or it could be based of the lovecraftian monster known as the heart of the world
What are some potential side effects of channeling The Light?
I don't exactly remember, but I'm pretty sure that while the Light in Darkest Dungeon is left vague on purpose, at least one of the devs interprets it as the faith itself giving power.The Vestal believes her faith in the Light grants her the power to heal injuries and so she can.
>>56651505Since channeling dark energies usually causes the wielder to lose themselves in their own emotions have the opposite happen for those who wield the light.The gain an unsettling clarity and may act emotionless, almost inhuman sometimes.
>>56647376>Praise the sun!>Muh Eternal Fire>Muh R`hllor
>>56627946>>56639362>>56650010What if the Light comes from an eldritch entity that actually does care about humanity in a sense, like Mantorok?
>>56627210The real reason it's kept vague is that you want the Light to be good, and the more you flesh it out the more you risk giving it unreasonable aspects. And making it unreasonable just enables DEUS VULT-faggots to shit up everything.Just look at the dramatic increase in paladin shitposting in the Warcraft threads after Chronicles.
>>56628469>Meaning a list of sins is easy to come, and is a religion that demands self sacrifice, cooperation, and humility.>But what's the drawback?Not everybody plays nice with others as they don't agree with the tenets of the faith. The power relies on the strength of faith and number of followers. So evil can easily topal good and dark can overcome the light. As humanity grows larger and larger the sense of community is lost,good and evil have become gray, less people believe leading to the strength of the light fading as the world slowly and unknowingly is overcome by the darkness until all light fades. The world ends not with a bang.
Friendly reminder to all darkness fags.There are 5 states of matter.SolidLiquid GasPlasma Bose-Einstein condensatesLight is neither. Light is pure energy.Darkness is darkness(Bose-Einstein condensates/Black Holes)It holds no power but to consume the light and therefore life.Light gives warmth and lifeDarkness takes warmth and gives death.Light is substance Darkness is absenceBy default you should serve the light since you are tangible and alive.Serving the dark is suicidal.
>>56627790Pelor is baelor
>>56628177Kingdom death hits the mark imho
>>56627790>>who is Pelor
>>56627697Baldes in the Dark is the Darkest Dungeon roleplaying game. It would take a minor tweak to make a DD book for that game.
>>56652023Those are light-related things. So is Jesus. "I am the Light of the World, says the LORD."Light-related =/= The Light.
>>56654982>t.cuck Serve the light and live or pretend to serve the dark and die. Darkness has no allies only deluded victims. Its an easy decision.You have to be cucked to choose death just becuase edgy. Honestly.
>>56643399So what kind of horrors will spawn from the Light then?
>>56655880Strange, inhuman "Angels", and the charred and burnt out spirits of Saints who's manifestation is concidered a miracle.
>>56655899Would be awesome if that's the theme of the upcoming third DLC.
>>56627210>What is The Light?THE SUN IS GOD
>>56627625>genetic religionI'm putting this in my campaign, too good not to.
>>56649744So if humans develop advanced enough spaceflight to relocate to some other planet or just sun orbiting habitats they can safely let the Hearth hatch?
How would one play a Cleric of the Light in tabletop?
>>56627210>Light >The illuminated>See the world as it is, instead of the smoke screen.
>>56657453I'm not sure I'd feel safe letting that thing hatch near my civilization
>>56640506So a Lie. A Big Lie. Darkness is the Truth, from where everything came and where everything will some day return, probably. But then people came up with things that it could not comprehend, that were completely alien to its very being. And that's why Light could hurt it. It's like telling to some robot that 2+2=5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnaQXJmpwM4
>valuestruth, order, knowledge, honesty, generosity (light is shared, "lighting the path for others...">giftsknowledge, divination, visions, dreams, revelations from heavens, being sensitive to the Unseen, courage, anti-illusion magic, the protection of the community (if the Open Source nerds were priests...)>drawbackscan't lie, can't keep secrets (actually, people of the light draw strength from revealing secrets or uncovering forgotten truths), the burden of knowledge, can't hide (you need to always take on your enemies head on, if you truly believe that truth is greater than deceit and that YOU stand for truth)alternatively, people who like to decieve others and hide like darkness more (basically the order of the assassins in AC or Wanted)>valuesdeceit, even-headedness, calm, silence, equilibrium, inertia, keeping the world from what it's not ready to know, manipulation, "everything came from the Void and to the Void it shall return" or some shit>giftsdiscretion, agility, invisibility (repulsing the light so much it bends to avoid your skin, thus making you invisible - requires being the only one to know a lot of secrets and succesfully misleading others), subtelty>drawbackscan be cheated without realizing, loneliness, other black hats can and will fuck you whenever you're just a pawn in the great Void,
>>56658971Don't ask stupid questions jackass.
>>56659186>the Light seeks progress, improvement, it is a method to draw near an ideal>eminent figures of Light are to be remembered and celebrated, they're glorified by (faithful) sculptures and their lives are recorded in books>the undisturbed Void is the expected perfection, it IS the idealthe follower of the Void aspires to join its unalterable peace, in oblivion. They believe naming a dead man disturbs their rest or some shit, so it's best to kill anyone that knows you before dying... or lie to them about your true identity.So should trust be a major pillar of this "faith" ? Alternatively, doubt should be at the center of "The Light" because it's based only on proof and demonstration.
>>56653655>Light is neither. Light is pure energy.>light isn't matter>light has a mass, which is why black holes are black>matter desintegrates into energy (light)>energy is yet another form of matter
>>56634731The light:>Relieves stress>Heals>Buffs humans exemplifying the best in humanity>Emboldens the ones around them>Allows some magic to be castThe light in Darkest Dungeon is the HFY inside the characters, and not literal gifts of the gods. It's more like faith in yourself is rewarded in a universe where faith in eldritch horrors is also rewarded. And in the end, it's the personal faith that undoes the hubris of horrors.Now the power that isn't explained in DD is blood. Why is blood so important in the game even before the Crimson Court?
>>56659319Photons are mass-less particles. They are also affected by gravity, perhaps even more so due to having so little mass.Then again, physics still struggles with what light is and will for a long time.
What about a god of light that's more spiritually and morally ambiguous, what would they be like?Blinding, Bright, Burning, Nuclear Fusion, Lasers?
>>56659445The raging sun that boils the earth, a blinding, searing light that leaves no room for anything but itself to be percieved, the terrible glow of a split atom.You WILL witness the Light, your life is a small price to pay for such a gift.
>>56627648Plane of Positive Energy>The Light
>>56659445Look into Ligier from Exalted, he is the Green Sun that lights up hell. He sees all, judges all and burns all as they are all less than him.Also a really good dancer and the best weapon smith there is.
>>56659605Ligier seems like a personable guy, I like my gods are more distant sort.
>>56659372But if they knew that, they'd probably lose their power.It's the same ideal you are taught in AA programs. To do what's too difficult, you have to believe that a higher power is in your corner and has got your back.
>>56660540Yes, absolutely. Being self-assured is literally a path to destruction as narrated in the game.
>>56660520He's only personable because the conditions of the oath he swore when the Primordials lost says he has to be.There was a note in the Infernal book about how if he had it his way he would rape all of creation with his nuclear hellfire dick and annihilate a good chunk of the other Primoridials for being weak.He would then go waltzing through the unending chaos outside of creation with a sword forged from the ashes of reality..
>>56660722Great guy to have at parties
Isn't there a mythology where the sun only shines because of blood sacrifice, and one where the sun is a decapitated head?
>>56660945>sun only shines because of blood sacrificeThose wacky Aztecs.
>>56657453Theoretically, if you could delay its awakening until humanity developed space age technology, they could escape and survive. It all depends on how quickly they can pull it off and if the general population is informed of the impending doom beneath their feet.
>>56660945Yes, and if the sun goes out, these spooky female skeleton demons with rattlesnake penises will descend from the night sky and bring about the end of the world.
>>56628668hypocrite! how can you assert that darkness is perfect? darkness is meaningless it only obscures, light provides us with vision, it provides us with meaning and provides us with warmth. darkness is death, it is the absence of energy, the absence of sight and knowledge. those who espouse the dark fear the light, they fear improvement, they fear knowledge they would rather be blind than see something painful, they would rather be in the cold than burn their hand at the fire
>>56645916>picThe unfortunate truth is this - there can be no Us without a Them. No Ally without an Enemy. No Family without a Stranger. No Good without Evil. No Light without Darkness.
>>56653655It is too late for me, anon. This heart belongs again to darkness.
>>56661861>It is too late for me, anonWell it's nev-->This heart belongs again to darkness.GET THE FUCK OUT. DARKNESS FAGS. YOUR UNDERAGED WAIFU RUINED TO LOVE RU FFS. SERIOUSLY I AGREE THERE IS NO REDEMPTION FOR YOU.
>>56661310>Telling themUh oh.>Becoming a super secret society based off of controlling world events from the shadows and in order to destroy the heartBingo.
>>56627210> I'm so inept I can't recognize blatant allegories for the force of good when I see them It's just a generic religious analogy for the force of good or the will of the right; the ideals of the just. Read a fucking book.
>>56627750Perhaps the Light they use is merely the same hocus-pocus that cultists use. Maybe even from another eldritch being that opposes the Heart of Darkness that disguises itself in perceived benevolence or simply is the Light to the Darkness of the Darkest Dungeon.
>>56662349Again I'd like to put it out there that the powers of the Light are derived from humanities own eldritch physiology as spawn from the Heart.
>>56662390Personally I like the idea of the light being from an actual benevolent God>What if The Light is just another eldritch abomination?This is not mutually exclusive with it being Capital G God, the best YHWHs are sanity destroying, but ultimately actually nice ones
>>56632535THE SUN. THE SUN. THE SUN.
>>56662870>implying the Dawn Machine is "the light" when the actual Sun still existsGranted natural light makes people subject to natural laws again and causes death as intended outside of the Neath so you could assume some people think of it as evil especially when the Judgments are fueled by souls that have passed on and made the trip on the slow boat passing a dark beach on a silent river
The Light is the golden path that allows existence to continue.fuck elves and the darkness
>>56662223Sora, no, no abandoning Riku-Ansem.
>>56627210>Gets thrown around a lot>Translation: Just in my shitty video games with lore that wouldn't sell as a paperback and has to be alloyed with a video game to garner even the smallest bit of interest KILL YOURSELF>>56629298>Arthurian stories and Western folklore didn't have characters that engaged in philosophical trails that involved the exploration of the selfKILL YOURSELF TO>>56635957THIS. So very THIS.
>>56639001>Fire was a mistakeNo tard. Linking the fire was a "mistake". Fire was there as soon as the original dragons were dead.>Discarding II and III because they go against my shitty headcanon.>>56638953Dark is wrong only in that letting the fire goes out means everything gets gang raped by abyss monsters.The big conflict in the games is "Should I let the darkness mercy kill this horrible world full of not-zombies and monsters in the hope that one day a fresh fire will come out of the dark or should I give the fire a booster shot for a few thousand (maybe even just hundred by DSIII) years of the world not being a giant hellscape?"
>>56640030I thought the abyss was just a super-form of darkness in which darkness gains self-creative properties and weird cancer monsters like still water breeding insects and moss. Like darkness is a cancer and abyss is it metastasizing.
>>56639177>FormlessWhat I want to know is how there were dragons and gods and witches before fire?>Dark vs LightIt's mercy kill this pathetic hellscape world or try and add X amount of years of normalcy (which never really gets elaborated on because the lore in Darksouls is only deep by vidya standards. How many years does linking the fire add? It's amazing absolutely no one tells you over the course of three video games).It's easy to want to just let everything die because you only get to play the games when everything has gone to shit. You're never around the Darksouls world when there's actually things worth fighting for.It's like deciding on whether or not to continue Earth when you only get to see Rwanda.
>>56627210YOUR LIGHT AND FIRE AND FLAME ARE NOTHING TO SOLARIS.I WILL REPLACE YOUR SUN AND RULE.YOUR PEOPLE WILL WORSHIP ME OR DIE IN THE COLD
>>56661365>darkness is meaningless it only obscures, light provides us with vision,The darkness obscures only illusion and the light only reveals illusion.>it provides us with meaningThere is no meaning that is not illusion and a distraction from the path>and provides us with warmth, darkness is death, it is the absence of energy, the absence of sight and knowledge.Darness is an also an end to the passions that inflame us and an end to the endless cycle.>those who espouse the dark fear the light, they fear improvement, they fear knowledge they would rather be blind than see something painful, they would rather be in the cold than burn their hand at the fireKnowledge of illusion. For what purpose? You seek to improve illusion but never to escape it. Hypocrite yourself!
Sometimes the light is a burden, one not meant for the hands of men to bear.
>>56652088But Mantorok is the purple shit, right? What about the Yellow Shit?>>56655880Ever see Bayonetta? That but without the flesh underneath.>>56661861>>56663298SUBMIT!
>>56627727The Light in DD is some eldritch shit that's just opposed to whatever the Ancestor unleashed.You know that shit the Occultist uses, the "dark forces" he begs for help? He summons that... with a candle.It's all The Light. Light, Darkness, doesn't really matter.When the Light has beaten back the Darkness, mankind will suffer in the Light. And then, the Darkness will save mankind.
>>56665712You sound like a malfunctioning printer in a fortune cookie factory.
>>56665904It's been confirmed that the eldritch entity that the Occultist made a pact with was the Heart of Darkness.
>>56627210The Light is Zarus.
>>56665952What kind of retarded logic is that? I haven't beaten DD yet so I'm working with incomplete information here, but that makes zero sense.
>>56666121"Hey if you give me power now I'll give you my soul when I die."DEAL. MY POWER IS YOURS UNTIL YOUR DEATH."Sucker! Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!"...THE SHIT I PUT UP WITH.
>>56660722>Infernal bookThat was shit though, why would you use it?
>>56627210The Light = Just plain old God but without offending the PC police or fedoras.
>>56633228>games that have a 'crusader' class but no crosses
>>56663186>>56662870UN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE S
>>56627946Work in progress>Sisters of Light - One of the more insidious cults, the Handmaidens of Light are most successful at hiding their inner corruption. They worship the Bright Lady, an outer god that dwells within the core of a dying star. This creature requires regular sacrifices to hold the dissolution of it's home at bay. Worshiper aspire to become one with the light, dwelling in a afterlife full of joy in hope. In reality they are kindling at worst, or stokers of the flame at best. Either way all are consumed once they have outlived their purpose. The all female cult is well known for their charity and mercy. Low level members are kept in the dark. When a person disappears under their care it is understood they beheld the Lady, and went into the light. Those deemed worthy are told the sacrifices are needed so they can help others. These people must be culled so others can live. The highest levels of the cult understand the nature of the Bright Lady all too well, but are addicted to the power she grants.
Everyone has light in them. This is a scientific fact. It's just that to get the light out from within you, to unleash the light that's present in all matter, you have to break the bonds. Nuclear power is the power of the divine. Let there be light.
Alrighty, bump limit hit, and lots of good stuff in this thread.Should this thread be archived?
My theory is that "The Light" is generally the most powerful force in a setting because it's faster than all the other gods
>>56666282Only the opening was shit, the rest of it was good.
>>56667240It's a good one for the archives.