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/tg/ - Traditional Games

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Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14WlvAzOgGdCzG_XytF87LvpruNQx_lUGei--Iun10zg/edit?usp=sharing

Archive of thread #1: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/54453838/

Archive of thread #2: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/54471141/

Thread #3 (not archived forever, so take what you can) >>54498490

Primer: Black Sun Rising is a /tg/ created setting that takes dark fantasy and horror and ramps it up to eleven. Eight Dark Lords rule over a broken, mutated Earth under the corrupting rays of the maybe-sentient Black Sun. It is a world of mysteries, conflict, but rarely resolution.

The setting is kept intentionally vague to encourage players, GMs, and wargamers to develop it on their own in the direction they desire. The base setting is a springboard into a world of dark adventure.
The dark empire was an underground Industrial civilization. while it still exists today, it is a fraction of the size it once was. Its industrial plants still exist today however, and those that can figure out how to use them make great use of them.

the dark empires crowning achievement in the old world was developing firearms.
Great wheels for grinding rock and giant furnaces for smelting ore with molds for liquid metal to be poured into are among the many empty and quiet corridors of the abandoned empire.

The Dark lord of the mountain sees these as his territory and will violently take over any lost industries that he finds, branding or killing the inhabitants before replacing them with his own servants.
> Last naht ah' saw a couple o' men wit a wagon.
> one small man an' one lie' a giant
> The wagon was pulled by some sor' o' steed, but it was covered by cloth.
> the men were leadin it.
> t' big one lumbered and plodded in a way like 'is legs didn't qui' fih' em.
> wots mo, as dey passed me by i smelled som'm rank.
> the smell of death
> that li'l man was a stitcher i bet my days pay on it
> and he built his own steed and muscle.
> i bet that tha' wagon were filled with more body pahts too.
> the sick ba'ard
Glad to know that others consider Friday part of the weekend too.

>The slave caravans, though often associated with carrying supplies from one Dark Lord to another, are far more varied in cargo than one might thing.
>Food, weaponry, construction material, all of that can be found in a caravan, but so can rich nobles with their slave pulled luxury carts, or massive beasts with tamers surrounding it.
>In the hustle and bustle of the caravan, anyone can really slip in and be undetected.
>Some are brave enough to try slipping out, though once you are marching through a parted sea, there's not many places to run to.
So, what would an actual campaign in this setting be like?
The ancestors of the Dark Empire inhabitants still fight against the Mountain Lord, but they do not consider themselves freedom fighters as rebels do. They fully believe that one day the Dark Empire will rise up again, and these False Lords will be crushed under their sheer fire power.

Sure, they will work alongside rebels, but if they win the battle, they will expect those rebels give themselves up to Empire.
Rolling an endless series of "Save or Die" checks.
There's plenty of campaigns that could be had in the setting, it all depends on what part of life under the Black Sun they want to explore.

A game focusing on rebels would be about espionage, guerrilla warfare, sabotage, and doing whatever small steps you can to destabilize a Dark Lord's lands while keeping your rebels as hidden as possible.

A game about being scribes for a Dark Lord or traveling curators would be about going from place to place, learning more about the world and trying to find the truth behind a certain mystery. It'd be very social and exploration focused alongside the combat that comes from traveling a nightmare world.

Working as branded for a Dark Lord is all about rising through the ranks, proving yourselves however you can to crush your enemies and please your masters, balancing gaining societal power with the horrible mutations that come from dealing with dark forces.
I figured it would start with the players in some small free town, all or partially underground. they would slowly have to figure out ways to venture outside, make lives better for this town, a bunch on intrigue to learn about how to defeat a dark lord and kill one. once one dies the others are likely to get worried and some are sure to form alliances where they stick together to try and survive these heros, makig killing the next lord far more difficult.
> and so on and so on

alternatively, it was suggested that the dark sun was a portal to another universe where not!cthulu was approaching to take over our universe. additionally there were cults that were trying to speed this process. players could be interrupting the cutls.
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>The Mechanical Men, once the proud defenders of a rising kingdom, have been reduced to mindless monsters.
>Powered by solar energy, the Black Sun's rays have corrupted them from the inside out, driving them to fight anything that stands in their path.
>They are often rounded up by the Lord of Fires and thrown onto his enemies during conquests.

>However, there are a precious few mechanical men who are not corrupted.
>They were made with internal engines powered by Ethereal Arts, the magics of the long slain Abstracts.
>With this power source, they march across the lands, slaying each of their corrupted brothers.
>The tragedy is that these Ethereal Machines were prototypes. They burn through more energy than can be put into them at one time.
>One day, they will all rust and fall. But until that day, they battle on.
>The pasts of the Dark Lords are vague at best and lost to time at worst. Very few remember who these Dark Lords were back when they were known as the Bright Nobles.
>This is the same for the Lord of Black Waters. No one can say for certain what he may have been like before being corrupted by the Black Sun.
>Yet some believe there are hints in the strangest of places.
>A nursery rhyme sung by rebel mothers to their children that speaks against the Dark Lords mentions a single line about this Lord's lands sinking to the sea, along with his "sons and daughters."
>Most would ignore such a line as just a way to keep the rhyme, but the Lords behavior suggests that there may be some truth to it.
>For example, he does not invade the sunken cities of the gilled men by force, only taking them when they are surrendered to him.
>Along with this, his branded gilled men can be seen searching these cities for artifacts of all shapes and sizes to bring to the Dark Lord.
>Whether there is any true sentimentality for people he may have lost, or if this is just the strange behaviors of a mad ruler, who can say?
>Dredge is the currency of the world now, cast off metal not fit enough for construction turned into the money of the Branded.
>While the smelting pits that lead to the creation of these coins are hard to replicate, only being found in the centers of Dark Lord societies, forgery is not impossible, and can be a big problem for any lands trying to have some resemblance to civilization.
>As a result, particularly keened eyed Branded are given the opportunity to rise through the ranks by studying the dredge, each possible curve, each flaw that is allowed, until they can perfectly tell a real dredge from a fake.
>They work in marketplaces and trading posts, ensuring that trade is legitimate.
>Any foul play suspected is punished severely.
Bumping this. Thanks to whoever made this thread.
There are many beasts in the world, and they all have a particular habit of killing each other and killing any human they see. There's always a new creature being discovered, or some new strain of mutant, almost all of them blood thirsty. What's unique about the monsters of this world though is that they are less likely to attack someone or something the more mutations it has. A tentacled faced hound creature is more likely to eat a normal human than they would a man with tentacles growing out of their head. Perhaps this is because the Black Sun desires that its corrupted beings have more safety on the planet than the non-corrupt do. Or perhaps because there are so many mutated variations on creatures, a monster will confuse a heavily mutated being as a variation of its own species.
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>The Watching Eyes of the Lord Of Cities see all things within the dark cities built by the Dark Lord, observing the countless Branded who slave away in service to him.
>These macabre Watchers are even used to hunt down any who would dare to try and rebel against the Dark Lord.
>These Watching Eyes were actually the result of a deal between the Architect and the Vermin Lord. In exchange for these elite watchers, the Lord of Cities helped build onto the massive underground ruins that the Lord of A Thousand Eyes lives in.
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> Being extensions of the Vermin Lord, the Watching Eyes are infused with his dark essence, which has only been strengthened by the vile magics of the Architect.
>This combination of terrible power makes the Watching Eyes a truly terrible foe to face.
The most effective way to hide in the city from these beings is also the most dangerous, becoming enveloped in the complicated politics of the city itself. Through alliances, betrayal, subtle moves right under people's noses, and other such moves, you can get a lot done both for and against the Dark Lord. The danger is that you never know which person you talk to is someone you can trick, or is someone tricking you, ready to tell a Watching Eye everything.
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>Watching Eyes are mostly silent, watching from afar and noting whatever they see, but they are capable of speech.
>When they speak, it is a grating sound that tears at the mind. Listening to a Watching Eye speak has in fact caused many unfortunate people to have their brains destroy themselves from the raw trauma of the sound of their voice.
During a Red Moon, the Dark Lords are brought into a catatonic state, in too much pain to move or speak. Their followers are driven to a madness even greater than that of a normal eclipse, some committing suicide from the agony.

Legends say that one once heard the pained whispers of the Dark Lord of Mountains as he slumped down in his throne. They say he spoke with the voice of the Black Sun itself, cursing the Abstracts and the Moon for denying him the world in such a way.
>It is said, that on the nights of the Red Moon the Mourners will sing in ancient tongues, a song that resonates within the hearts of all pure souls and drives the darkness back.
>Some have taken to calling this song "Luna's Lament"
Legend says that the Red Moon is the result of the true death of an Abstract, its final moments acting as revenge against the Black Sun. Whether true or not, it has many curators scurrying to find as much info on the Abstracts as they can. For while the exact number of Abstracts has been forgotten, the thought of losing the Red Moons entirely once all the Abstracts are fully gone is a frightful one indeed, for it would signal a crushing blow against the resistance.
>From what the Mourners have said regarding the Abstracts, their numbers where once "As Plentiful As The Stars In the Sky".
>Perhaps it is telling, that with each passing year the number of stars seems to dim more and more.
>The Star Lord's star maps are coveted items for these researchers.
>Frequently updated and difficult to acquire, they are perhaps the best guess anyone has as to how many more blood moons there might be, if the stories are to be believed.
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>Of course finding the Star Lords maps is a challenge in and of itself. The vaults which the Star Lord stores many of his assorted artifacts are usually located in their own pockets of distorted space, guarded by myriads of nightmarish creatures and nefarious traps.
>Along with the physical dangers of the pockets of space, there is the danger of perception as well. For time works differently in these pocket dimensions. What may be a an hour searching for a star map for one, might in reality be a day, a week, or a year if the differences are extreme. It can also work the opposite way. A year trapped in the pocket dimension may only be a day in reality.
>Upon finding the Star map one may think that they are safe, that they are finally free, but in truth the danger has only just begun.
>For the maps themselves are imbued with a corruptible power, a power that can very easily twist and corrode those who try to take them if the proper precautions are not taken.
>Ironically enough, these defenses make the Dark Lord of Stars one of the few Dark Lords to harvest world flesh for reasons beyond keeping it away from rebels.
>The Star Lord needs his followers to occasionally relocate or better hide the star maps, and while mutations are usually part of everyday life for Branded, the corruptive power of the star maps would burn through too many assistants if left unchecked.
>So Branded specifically tasked to handle star maps are given heavy World Leather clothing and protective gear to best handle the corruption.
>The Star Lord even has a select few of his most loyal servants tasked with transporting some of his more powerful star maps to other locations, the raw corruptive power of these maps warping the land around them.
>These special servants are gifted with enchanted artifacts in order to protect them from the reality-corroding power of these unique star maps.
>Some believe that these artifacts must be using Ethereal Arts, or are coming from Abstract remnants.
>This drives many, from Mourners to clerics to simple treasure hunters, to attempt to further investigate (or steal) these artifacts from the Star Lord's servants, as having such powerful counter-corruption tools would be a serious boon to the resistance (and fetch for a great deal of dredge).
seems like interest in this setting has died. oh well
I honestly just think the thread came on at a bad time, Friday while people are still probably working until night, instead of Saturday. Plus it's harder to get into continuous setting making threads, there's a perceived barrier of entry. I'd wait till Saturday to see if things pick up. And if not, there's still like, 3 other threads worth of content to work with and do something great with the setting.
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Not really. Its just pretty late, and some people might be sleeping. Of course, many others are probably spending their time circle-jerk ingredients not any one of the dozen 40k threads, so yeah.
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Story Anon here. I didn't realize that the thread was going to be up on a Friday! To bring life and fun to the party in the way a chef would, delicately adding ingredients to spice and cool his guests pallettes, I will be writing a story about the Culinaries of the Dark Lord of the Hounds today!

Stay Tuned!
Absolutely brilliant Anon! I was just going to sleep after bumping by worldbuilding thread a bit, but I think I'm going to stay up to ensure that this gets bumped.
Oh wow, glad to see you're here. Obviously there's only been a few of us in the thread today (probably because it was posted Friday, probably because of the gap) but we did get some neat things in, I think. Still, a good story ought to really elevate the thread a bit.
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>The culinary minds of the world have lost much of their flair, their "pizazz" that they had with a lot of the food being oversaturated, corrupted and otherwise bland from the rotting of most ingredients
>Some chefs thought it was rather unpleasant when their ingredients either rose to ask why their body parts were placed on separate tables.
>Herbs and spices decided that they would rather not stick around and see the end of the world, and decided a decaying death seemed like a much better game plan, really.
>With the ingredients of the previous world essentially nonexistent and kept in the Dark Lord of the Plants' strange seed bank to sate his perverse desires of fatherhood, many either became merchants, some became rot farmers, others apothecaries, and many, many became the bottom of a flower bed for the Plant Lord.
>Some renowned chefs known for their desire to really get in the thick of danger for the freshest, most robust ingredients welcomed this whole "Black Sun" deal and thought that it would invite some new, peculiar tastes for their dishes.
>In some strange manner, the Dark Lord of the Hunt saw these as his own court. That they were a strange bunch, but their Hunt was one of knowledge, skill and art. That they would be able to understand the pursuit, the chase, the capture, but would skillfully demonstrate how terrifying that they are with their flurry of cleavers, saucepans and fire.
>The Dark Lord approached them, without the use of bureaucracy or assistants, and in his presence, he gathered these scattered chefs, these Culinaries of the Hunt, and appointed them a mission.
>To Hunt down the most extravagant beast that they could find, and, with the resources of the Fire Lord, prepare them a feast fit to their tastes of brutality and passion.
>The Culinaries were in a flourish, gathering their ingredients, their tools and their weapons, telling their assistants to sharpen their cleavers, and roared for their new Lord.
>This new, odd Hunt was on.
I really enjoy seeing how passions and art forms adapt in this setting, so already I'm excited.
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>Despite the Lord of the Hounds' strange fondness to these peculiar chefs of days long past, he still found it odd to see that their band would stop every now and again to rifle in the dirt and the brush, sorting through corpses and plants alike to look for new spices, experimental flavors, and mysterious tracks.
>The band of Culinaries had decided that they would hunt something extravagant that would show their new lord that they were a force to be reckoned with.
>These crazy, devoted few are absolutely devoted to this Hunt, their passions twisting to show that every action that they would do relates to the dish, its sides, its flavor, its presentation.
>Of course, their passions were always this robust, but now, with their wolfish grins and perverse curiosity for flavor, these artists would kill a wyvern for their Lord. To prove that they would Hunt anything that he so desired, and that the Culinaries would take the most extreme, strange creature that they could find, and turn it into lunch.
>Entirely willing to sacrifice themselves for the ultimate dining experience, this new hunger within them was not one for food, or flavor, but their own passions, unchecked by society, something not curdled by the Black Sun's touch, unlike anything else.
>This does not mean they are unskilled, however, in this long journey, using the shifting lands and skies to track the Wyvern by the food that it dropped on its flights, where it landed, and the acidity in the air from its flight paths and breath, the chefs hoped that the only blood shed would be from the creature's flesh reaching their cutting boards.
>With a meal must come a show, so their misguided devotion occasionally shows itself in the form of dawdling with merchants and farmers to find spices that would melt the jaw off of a Branded, to herbs that would shock the taste buds of a Thunderman, and color that would wow the Plant Lord's gardeners.
>Presentation, exposition, the Hunt. Their passion.
I'm lurking. Really enjoying all the concepts being created here. Carry on, you beautiful bastards.
Happy to hear, anon. If you're new, you can also check out the older threads for more context and sweet sweet lore.
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>With the Lupine Lord watching from the shadows, the excellent chefs had found the prey that they had sought.
>The pursuit had brought them to a coastline, where a wyvern had tried traveling, but was essentially bound to the coast's dark horizon by a large windstorm, blowing away many of the tools of the chefs, and making many of their stances unsteady on the wavering sand.
>The Culinaries were unphased by this ominous wind, licking their knives and cleavers, barbecue forks and spatulas raised in a hearty charge against the elegant, venomous creature.
>The wyvern cried out to the staff of chefs, saying that its mission was to deliver light to the Voidnarrow, to save humanity, and bring peace.
>The culinaries were offended that this creature would dare take away their wonderful world of chaotic inspiration and culinary unknowns, and considered the pleading wyvern to be an enemy to their main dish.
>The wyvern's cries fell on deaf ears, as she attempted escape by darting along the coast, the chefs almost surprised by her speed.
>Some of them, however, had hunted dragons and drakes before in the lands now known as the Silent South, and had prepared for her speedy escape, avoiding her venomous spit and sailing a weighted net into the air from the power of the windstorm.
>Bound and clipped, the wyvern crashed into the dark beach, the Black Sun beaming and buzzing in approval, shining a beacon of dark light towards her frail body, as the culinaries grinned, raised a solitary knife, and extinguished the life of the humanitarian creature, disposing of the Last Light in the black waters, a box made of mirrors lost to the sea.
>With the swing of this knife came victory, spoils, and roars of cheering, but their day was not yet done. This was only the start of their Hunt. To now return, to prepare, and to appease their Lords with utmost gusto and vigor. This was the way of the Chef. The culinary hunt is not over yet.
>The wyvern cried out to the staff of chefs, saying that its mission was to deliver light to the Voidnarrow, to save humanity, and bring peace.
>The culinaries were offended that this creature would dare take away their wonderful world of chaotic inspiration and culinary unknowns, and considered the pleading wyvern to be an enemy to their main dish.
This blend of mysterious lore and gallows humor is top tier.
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I'm glad you enjoyed it! I take a small inspiration from Terry Pratchett in that I like making a bit of the extraordinary ordinary, but I love gallows humor, I feel like it helps world building and makes some of these monsters of characters seem more entertaining.

I'm going to take a quick restroom break and finish the story afterward. I want people to guess about what inspired me to make a story about the Culinaries. I'll give you a hint: It's a character from a Nintendo game.
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>After lugging their precious, heavy payload back to the plains of the Lupine Lord himself, awaited by their master and the Dark Lord of the Fire.
>The Dark Lord admired their gusto and their passion, for he, too, enjoyed the company of artists that breathe fire with their inspiration, their anger, and entertained him with their paintings of beautiful wartorn fields.
>With the wyvern corpse preciously buried underneath soil to seep the venom and poison out of the flesh, the chefs sharpened their tools of trade, ignited their new burners, readied their various herbs and ingredients for this new proving ground, as allies now are at each others throats to make the most superb, extravagant dish.
>Their assistants giving them a wide berth, the culinaries' grins are wide, toothy and dark, yet nothing like the Black Sun could ever give birth to, nothing with such burning ambitions and dark fantasies.
>The wyvern's poison finally drained, the chefs shout, stab and burn anyone even getting close to the limited, precious meat of their catch, the Lords watching in bewilderment as such insane learnedness, and wicked wit, using each ingredient to its utmost potential with the meat, making each dish trained to its flavor.
>Wyvern sushi, wyvern cutlet, wyvern curry, wyvern tenderloin, wyvern stew with a death lamb sauce, and gravemint garnish, to no expense, even a wyvernvenom brew to drink for the Lord of the Fire.
>Desserts, full course meals, and festivities of chefs battling, cooking and yelling for the course of an entire week, without fail.
>The most extravagant foods are now cooked by the Culinaries, and those depraved enough, passionate enough, can join their ranks proven their strength and tracking skill, but their skills with a blade in battle must be matched by those with a blade in the kitchen, for strength must be matched by finesse and intentions, along with their crazy, garbled charisma.
>Their fervor outshines even the Black Sun.
Delicious story, anon. Keep up the great work.
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You. I like you.
If no one can guess, this was inspired by this little fellow in pic related.
I thought that it would be interesting if there was this cult of people that would take these strange new creatures in a world, and rather than just fight them, turn them into delicacies because they felt like it. I thought it would be fun in a dark setting rather than some perverse joke that was in the background.
Anyway, I'll see you guys tomorrow! It's late, and I need some rest. I'll write some more tomorrow, I look forward to this thread whenever it's up!
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thought it was pic related at first
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>When the Abstracts died, the clerics who worshiped them were lost, unsure of what to do.
>Some stayed committed to their faith, studied it further, and harnessed what powers they could to become Mourners.
>Others turned to direct violence, traveling the corrupted lands on a quest to smite all evil.
>And some...just gave up.
>Finding power with the Abstract of Dreams, these disillusioned clerics put themselves in a deep sleep they would never wake up from, escaping into a shared dreamworld forged from their fond memories of the past.
>Hopeless from far and wide, from rebels to Branded, travel the world in search of these clerics, and the dream world they have created.

>They will not find them, however, for the clerics have died long ago, with only their bones and dust remaining.
>Their corpses lay next to many other sleeping bodies, some old, some new.
>For those who enter the endless sleep do not remain pristine. Their bodies slowly succumb to death.
>Yet their minds still live on, one one form or another.
>For you see, in this crafted dreamscape, all dreamers are connected.
>And slowly the minds of the dying, their memories, hopes, and aspirations, bleed into the minds of the young.
>So in truth, the dreamscape is not a large collection of minds dreaming together, but a few sleeping individuals with the memories of many others now ingrained into their dreams.
>The dream may be far more pleasing than the real world the Black Sun rules, but it is a dream one cannot escape.
>For those who choose to share in the dream shall one day become it.
Afternoon bump.
Just woke up, so I'm going to Bump this a bit
The Lord of Vermin is a strange lord in that his branded are unwelcome in his land. A singular ancient castle deep in the mountains. Only his children occupy that land, and visitors seeking his favor.
Indeed the Lord of a Thousand Eyes rarely cares for his own branded and shortly after their first encounter he will send them back to where they came.
His branded are taken from the destitute and forsaken of the other Lords, and from those who survive in the wilds. Those forgotten in their own homes. With his blessing they return and hope to simply survive.
Those who exceed that, those who breed, those who surpass. Those are his truly blessed, those are his Children, who he will welcome back. Most don't however, so that they may continue growing as a cancer, infecting the local lands and growing their own families, with no regards to those that had forsaken them.
The Lord of Vermin does not defend his children, and thus the other Lords merely exterminate the rat's dens, as they appear without bringing their wrath to the Lord. Knowing that these groups are everywhere and may be useful to them in the future.
Because of this strange rule, many question what actually lives in the Vermin Lord's lands. For if it's not the Branded hiding in those deep, ruined kingdoms, what is?

Monsters. Beasts. Rats. Worms. All kinds of disgusting abominations crawling through the dark. All working for the Dark Lord, traveling through the earth, spying, moving back and forth to rely information back to the Dark Lord.
Here some thoughts.
Population generaly should avoid sun rays so generic clothes must be something arabic, lots of cloth covering all body and face. Except those who seeks Sun energy, so black mages, witches, dark lords have more open costumes. Witches probably wear masks to save face from mutations.
Definitely, clothing and how much skin someone is exposing says a lot about a person. A low ranking Branded who's slaving away all day isn't going to have great sun protection, and they're going to suffer some nasty mutations because of it. A black mage or high ranking Branded is going to have them more open clothing, but by choice, letting certain parts get more mutated than others. Dark Lords are potentially shape shifters and they're all about dark energy, so they can wear whatever they want. And rebels/people who don't want mutations are wearing special protection like World Flesh leather and the like.

I do agree with the arab vibe, or at the very least very baggy clothing.
There are few who stand against the Black Sun as terrifying as the Purifiers, clerics and monks driven mad from their hatred of corruption, traveling the world to kill anyone and anything they perceive as tainted, no matter how extensive the corruptions are.

Though they are not beyond attempting to redeem people, in their own twisted way. The removal of a brand is a painful and complicated task, requiring delicate purifying rituals and a strong willed, willing Branded to undergo the process. The Purifiers will simply take a Branded, cut out the burnt flesh, and hope for the best. This almost always results in death from shock.
>My name is Kochello, and I am a clown.
>That is right, a clown. A payed fool.
>You would not think a clown could find work in these dark days, but you would be mistaken, for have more dredges than most.
>This is because I serve the Black Sun Ballet, the traveling show of decadence and debauchery, and pay is good.
>Along with this, I am away from hard labor and the heat of battle. Anyone in my position would think it to be a dream come true.
>Yet for me, to be a clown is to suffer.
>Why, you may ask? You see, the Black Sun Ballet serves two purposes. It must praise the Black Sun and all it represents, and ridicule all signs of rebellion.
>And that is where I come in.
>In the stage plays we put on, I play the foolish rebel who is killed by his own stupidity. I play the bumbling mutant who refused to take a brand. I play the mad cleric praying to an Abstract long since dead.
>And the audience laughs and laughs, siding with the clever and charming dark mages, loyal Branded, and masked Dark Lords played by my fellow actors.
>I should be happy that I bring some joy to an audience that damn well deserves some levity, but I know with each joke, each gag, each bit of foolishness, I teach them a clear lesson.
>To stand against the Dark Lords is to be an idiot.
>And that is lesson burns me whenever I teach it.
So I've been thinking about what type of class system would work best for this setting, and I'm starting to think that it would actually make more sense for every character to start out with generally similar stats, and then force the player to specifically level certain stats if they want to become a fighter, rogue, wizard. Fits with the idea of everyone being a weakling and needing to slowly become great by training in specific skills, not just starting with those skills and building up on them.
Yeah that makes sense perhaps what faction they belong to might mean that they are better at a certain thing than another eg. A branded of the lord of vermin would be be better at stealth rather than a thundermen
As referenced as this game's already been for grimdark settings on /tg/, I'm almost imagining the level system being similar to how Dark Souls handles classes. For this setting, you have a starting class that's determined by where you come from (lord of vermin, lord of fire, rebel, thunderman, ect) but then are given free range to level what you want. So if you want to go purely in one direction to best fit a specific class, you can, but you can also be a mix of things easily.
This is an extremely good, yet grim, representation of the entertainment industry today with a great understanding of psychology and how people react to ridicule. They think it is their own ideas, and parrot those who taught them how to ridicule. I love the idea of a traveling, mischievous carnival and ballet that goes around to every kingdom for fun and to enforce the Lords' will. Amazing work.
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I genuinely think Burning Wheel is a good idea for this kind of system, where points and stats are determined from upbringing, and can change with the character's experiences, ideas, or life. I also like that it's fairly classless, and is more of a vague system best for storytelling and worldbuilding, as there is no set "setting".
I'm glad you like it, friendo! I really love the idea of corruption not just being a literal thing, but something that works on a mental level. People don't just become cultists overnight, they need to be put in the right mindset to embrace destruction and doom, and what better way to ease them into it than through entertainment?
Why did you call it Dark Sun when it's Black Sun Rising
Got me all excited for actual Dark Sun
It's neither Black Sun Rising or Dark Sun. These threads kinda have a proper name that doesn't get it mixed up with something else.
So, you got any more stories planned tonight or are you just lurking for now?
Just lurking, but I do plan to write at least one today. I'm thinking of maybe the Branded of the Dark Lord of the Plants, but I'm not certain. I'm trying to form it right now while cooking, as I can see my monitor from my kitchen pretty well.
That does have some good potential, since so far the Plant Lord seems like one of the more directly evil characters.
>The information known about the 'Favored Children' of the Lord of Vermin are very sparse, it mostly grew out of a single tale.
> An individual who claimed to be The Prophet of Filth appeared in a town controlled by The Lord of the City. He told his tale, and then was never seen from again. Many believe this act was one of rebellion against his Lord, some believe that The Lord of the City took him to gather information on it's fellow Lord, although some believe it was the Lord of a Thousand Eyes itself, playing a cruel joke...
>The man began his preaching in the slums, and began his story with his own tale. He belonged to a troop of hunters, branded under the Lord of Wolves. His troop had fallen behind the others and was left. The group was in desperate need of shelter, and they had found some. A massive hole at the edge of the woods. Without thinking the group piled into the mouth of the cave and did what they needed, hoping against hope that the others would come for them once the storm subsided. He went deeper into the hole looking to make sure they weren't better off in the storm. That's when me met one of the favored children, in the dark all he could make out where dozens of red eyes, of various sizes and shapes and the chitterings of rodents. It spoke in human tongue however, it informed them if they provided food for it they could stay peacefully until the storm ended.
>The storm lasted many days, they put what food they could in the depths and stayed at the mouth of the cave, but on the second day one of their members had gone missing. One more on the next day, then another. After nearly half their men had gone missing in only a fortnight the Prophet went to ask their host what had happened. He didn't have the nerve to ask when he saw what happened, they where moving closer to the mouth of the cave, they where many rats seemingly connected at some point, but what horrified him the most was the sight of a crew mate among the mass...
>The prophet ran, without looking back, without thinking of his crew, without fear of the storm outside. He kept running, only taking brief breaks to eat what he could and drink when he could.
>There was a whining in his ear, it wouldn't stop. It only settled when he moved towards the mountains and so he went, if only to stop the horrible pitch for a moment he would have gone anywhere.
>He grew ragged and deathly thin, but he lived and so he made it to a church carved out of the mountain side, and when he stepped in the horrible noise finally stopped.
>Inside this church there was a colony of people however, in thick burlap clothing that covered every inch of their body. They welcomed him and asked nothing in return, they talked of the Lords and the greatness of the Black Sun, but they also talked about the wretched few who where forsaken and left behind. Who where destined to die without the love of a Lord to guide them.
>This was a pain the Prophet knew all too well, he tried to ask who they served and their only response was 'We serve all.'
>The prophet stayed in that church for many weeks, he even began to gain a bit of a belly. The prophet laughed at this retelling and shook his girth with pride.
>Things seemed great, greater than he had ever known until a day of the Red Moon...
>Have you ever heard the tale of the Burning Fishmen?
>Oh yes, you'll like this one, it's a real oddity.
>You know those gilled folk? The ones that breath underwater like? Work for the Lord of Black Waters?
>Well, not all of them like that Dark Lord very much.
>In fact, some of them hated the Dark Lord so much that they traveled to land so searching for the rebels they heard so much about.
>They rushed out while a slave caravan was moving through the Black Sea, wearing strange World-Flesh leathers unlike anything on the surface, stuff made from World-Flesh only found at the bottom of the sea.
>And this band of angry fishmen, they fought through the entire caravan's guard, and made it to land.
>They looked for rebels, crushing everyone who stood in their path.
>But sadly for them, no rebels could help their plight.
>"If you fishfolk can't fight the Dark Lord underwater, what makes you think surface folk could possibly help", they were told.
>And every other group, every other faction, none of them would give the gilled people a helping hand.
>And this made them real angry. Angrier than they'd ever been before.
>They marched on a suicide path right to the closest Dark Lord they could find. If they couldn't kill their own Dark Lord, maybe they could kill someone else's.
>That's when they met the Lord of Fire.
>And the Fire Lord looked down on them, these angry gilled folk fighting their hardest to kill him.
>Obviously the Fire Lord didn't fall, they barely left a scratch, but he saw their anger, their rage, and he delighted in it.
>So he offered them a deal. Let him be the one to brand them, and they can take out their rage out on the world! Branded and Unbranded alike.
>And they did. Their gills shot out steam, their fins cooked with molten magma, and they were transformed and mutated into the Fire Lord's Burning Fishmen!
>Now they skim across the black waves in what's left of their deep sea world flesh, hunting the branded of the Water Lord and anyone else.
>On this night the whining returned, but it wasn't from inside his head, it was from outside his room.
>Through the slitted grate on his door he could see the members of the church for the first time without their robes. Their form was almost human but ripping through the soft flesh of their face was a proboscis clear and hallow. From their rears a clear sac protruded and sprouting from their backs where massive clear wings.
>Some where not like this however, and he began to see why as the church members descended upon them, the clear sacs quickly filling with the red elixir drained from their bodies.
>The prophet wouldn't survive long here, luckily he had been around for long enough to know of the back tunnels. Ones which the members of the church warned him to never go. Still he made his escape, and seemed to go unnoticed as the church members flew out the front in search of more prey...
This might be my favourite story yet
It was dark sun for the first two threads, the op of the third thread called it black sun rising
>The tunnels where dark, wide and deep. The light from the lantern he had taken with him was barely enough to reach the walls, but fear drove him deeper.
>When he began hearing his footsteps crunching he did not look down, only forward and sometimes behind his shoulder for he feared the members of the church more than whatever he was stepping on.
>He went to what felt like the heart of the mountain, he continued to go forward even after his light went out. He continued forward even when he felt the earth beneath his feet begin to squirm.
>He moved forward until he began to see light, a red light. The light of molten rock and fire and as he moved closer he began to look around. To see why the earth felt so alive.
>He looked at the mass of maggots that lined the walls and floor of this cavern, he looked so hard he noticed the tiny markings on their flesh. He didn't look away until he heard buzzing from around the corner.
>A cacophony of tiny wings, and the anger of a home disturbed. The light was being cut off, darkness was coming for him. No, not darkness but a mass of buzzing flies.
>He awoke on the other side of the mountain range, the buzzing in his head now clear words. They told him where to go, they told him what to say, they told him to stop talking.
>As the branded of the City began to disperse, the authorities coming to take away this madman he appeared to have already left.
>The only proof of his existence was the story in those who heard him and those they told, and a faint buzzing in their ears.
I've never played warhammer fantasy RPG, but from what i know of it i think it would be a good fit.

if you can figure out a way to get the mechanics out of the warhammer setting at least
>Nightmare mosquito men
I love it. If this is what vampires are in the setting, I'm all for it. Great story.
Much appreciated.
After watching some Pyre, and learning about its Titans, I have gained inspiration.
>The Dread Titans are bound deep within the bowels of the earth, imprisoned so deeply that few are aware of their true existence, but that does not mean that they are Incapable of acting.
>For in their terrible slumber, they are capable of manifesting their dark wills unto physical reality in the form of the Dread Stars, incarnations of their will.
>These terrible manifestations aid the Black Sun in its consumption of all things by devouring stars as they move across the sky, sacking them dry as how one would suckered marrow from a bone.
>Where these malevolent ghosts tread across the sky, only ruin and desolation remain.
I've heard really great things about Pyre so far, and now this is only adding onto my need to get it.
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>The Dark Lord of the Plants is a cruel, powerful Lord. His Branded are the only ones not seen as citizens, subjects, or even slaves. They are seen purely as food. To be used as the topsoil for his true children, naught but the bottom of a flower pot.
>The plants are the real seeds of his labor, that he tends to each seed, breeding the most alluring, dangerous plants that he can splice together, made to spread, kill, and produce fruit to make more fertile "soil" for his benevolent children.
>Of course, he does have Branded servants that attend as his Scribes, and some of the most well-witted Branded are used as geneticists, gardeners, and traders to distribute his food as far as possible.
>The Branded of the Dark Lord of the Plant live in a hallucinatory haze, fed the most succulent, fattening fruits and vegetables, filled with nutrients and sweet flavor to drag people away from the sad, drab life without pleasure in the lands of the other Lords, or the rebels.
>The problem with this, is that there are a decaying amount of humans and people in his kingdom, as few volunteer of their own accord, and revere the Lord as the king of a rotten kingdom, the ruler of the wasteland, despite his lush, green forests and jungles.
>In order to combat this, the Dark Lord, in his infinite wisdom, maintains small towns beneath his forests, where he allows slaves to live if they breed and offer members of their village if they reach a population higher than 50.
>These horror-filled villages rarely enjoy the hallucinations, and are harrowed eternally. Hallow people with gaunt faces, and distressed expressions. These terrified beings are little more than cattle, hardly slaves, not even full of stimulation to be considered alive.
>Some of the specimens, however, born from the spores and the human slaves, were to become strange mutants of the spores, the plants, the flesh and the poison from the exotic plants burrowing into the villages of the land beneath the roots.
>The branded of the Astronomer, known by some as the “Grey Men,” at first may seem relatively blessed in terms of demands of their patron.

>After all, the Dark Lord of the Stars, in his mad ambition to chart the ever-changing celestial orgy that exists under the black sun, demands only of his indentured which he demands from himself: a manic, sleepless, endlessly vigilant cataloging of the sky above and the world below.

>Over time, eldritch energy and corruptive truths of the universe leak into the brains of the Astronomer's servants, slowly warping their bodies and minds.

>Deformities among the grey men are incredibly varied, but most suffer from encephalic growths, bleeding eyes, and a distinctly pallid grey skin.

>The Grey Men are seldom seen outside of their patron’s heavenly vestibule, they do however make trips to the surface to abduct, vivisect, and classify interesting specimens which fall from the Dark Lord’s spaceship, along with any uniquely mutated wanderers they happen upon.
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>These strange horrors made of man and spores are looked upon as messiahs of the Plant Lord, and all that entails.
>They bring horror, poison, terror and spread corruption extremely quickly. Virulent messiahs and priests of the Plant Lord, they speak as though the Black Sun were directly decreeing from their mouths.
>The Dark Lord of the Plants, of course, sees these as his greatest creations. Sentient, wiley, and eternally growing and in beautiful bloom, they are his soldiers and agents to be used in power plays.
>The mutant plant-men, however, are few and far between, but are extremely devastating, emitting poison and toxins from their pores that either kill or spread fear among their targets, some stating that their most feared thoughts they had ever known came to life.
>They are illusionists, poison masters, and soldiers wrapped into one, and are utterly, mindlessly devoted to their master, with no hope of conversion.
>The Branded of the Dark Lord of the Plants see no life to be lived within his borders, but his reach is long, and his power is great. The few that keep their coherence fight for him not because they believe in his dream for the plants, but because they desperately desire for them to be proven to be better than food. That they fight not to spread his influence, but know that if they were to escape, or to fight with another faction, they would not win.
>The tactics of the Plant Lord are to destroy the psyche of his enemies, and his mages are illusionists, deceivers and masters of nature.
>Nature is no longer natural, as the true nature of the green Nature is one of true darkness, and the ones who know this are tormented souls, powerful druids that use this new wracked and ruined life of plants and animal alike to show others their hopelessness by force.
>No one is happy in the land of the Plant.
>There is only fire.
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>A shooting star is sign of great misfortune, for in all likelihood it is not a shooting star at all, but likely a powerful eldritch mutant falling from the space station.
>Not being from Earth, there is not telling what damage the creature could do.
>And if there is an escaped creature, the Grey Men will surely come to retrieve it, along with any other interesting specimen they find along the way.
This is great stuff! It really captures the Plant Lord's cruelty and perverted sense of family, along with presenting a great breakdown of the psyche of those who serve him.
I appreciate it! I wanted to write more, but for the life of me, I could not come up with much more of a life for his Branded. They are truly without hope. It is a wasteland of hunger, desperation, and survival. I guess it really is a perfect form of nature, where only the strong survive. In his perversion of nature, his land is the purest representation of it.
Couldn't agree more. The focus on psychological combat was also a really nice touch. From everything else we know about the Plant Lord, his battle style is all about breaking moral and being outright terrifying, and seeing that reflecting in the story really helps tie everything together.
So what Branded do we not know about at this point?
We know about:

Do we know much about the Mountain Lord's Branded apart from mining and tech? Does that count?
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Before I write a story on him, which may be finished late tonight or sometime tomorrow afternoon, his personality has barely come up in anyone's writings. He's been taken to the least. Any technological advancements seem like they are attributed to the Dark Empire, which is unrelated to him apart from the fact that he hoards their developments. From what we know of him so far, it seems that he is a loud, bellowing voice with a personality to match. He is extremely greedy, but peculiar and enjoys talking to his Branded, other Lords, and even other Branded, but is not beyond seeing them as expendable miners to forever gather his valuable minerals. While he hides in fear of the Black Sun within his mountains and the soil, it seems he is the most fervent when it comes to extinguishing the rebel camps and cities underground Gurren Lagann style by burning them to the ground and chasing any would-be insurrectionists with his legion of Nightcrawlers, so he would be the least likely to be convinced by the rebels. What does everyone else think?
The only other Branded civilians I can think of that we don't have too much detail on are the ones serving the Mountain Lord, and the ones serving the Water Lord.

We do have some details obviously, Mountain Lord has miners, Water Lord has gilled men and a few non-gilled people in his underwater base, but we don't know that much about them beyond those basics.
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I guess you're right, the Water Lord's actual humanoid Branded, compared to the Gilled Ones, are hardly even brushed upon, apart from a few, prestiged souls being lab assistants. I like to think of him as a sort of Jin-Gitaxias sort of character, dwelling in a secluded area, experimenting on much, and happy to be well enough alone. His actions, as well as his Branded, may take to a different kind of Hunt. This one, in the pursuit of knowledge. Fervent, and deranged to a different degree, perhaps. Hm.
Seems like a generally solid breakdown to me. That dynamic between this perceived idea that he's hiding from the Black Sun, and how committed he is to fight those against it, could be a fun thing to play around with as you write.
What's interesting about the Water Lord is that he and the Star Lord at first seem to have a lot of similarities (secluded, researchers, control over powerful weapons) but while the Star Lord gives off more of an outward and controlled desire for knowledge, the Water Lord comes off as more isolationist and reckless in what he does. Look no further than how they both handle their weapons. The Star Lord doesn't go around shooting his space laser whenever he wants, but the Water Lord is playing is Organ of Storms whenever it pleases him.
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I think the biggest difference is that it would be like an alchemist in medieval times' way of approaching research (The Researcher) and a modern-day military scientist researching physics (The Astronomer). In fact, I think that the Dark Lord of the Dark Waters should be more of a magical researcher. Perhaps an artificer, looking at the biology of others, using metals, and magics. The Star Lord seems to be more grounded in material science, space, and technology.
Yeah, I really love all the little details in it, really helps to flesh the world out. Kinda sad how it's Titans are barely given any true representation aside from being background pieces, but oh well.
I imagine the Branded of the Water lord would generally be the most human and he might use them for experiments of any kind, think vault tec from fallout. Keep them decent livable conditions without many extremes and then insert certain qualities to the surroundings. Probably put these civilizations by the sea or on floating towns so he can seclude them.
I actually like the Dark Sun being a sentient entity of it's own,instead of just being a portal to some crappy Cthulu ripoff.

Eventually,the end goal of the campaign could be to either finally complete the Dawn Machine, or to simply find a way to escape this wretched hellhole.
That's a neat way of looking at things. The sort of wizard king archetype of the setting compared to the scientists, warlords, and psychopaths.
That was the original intention of the Black Sun, and I think we all wanted to keep that. There was one guy that wanted to try to make it some portal to some bigger characters that he made, but no one seemed to attach to it, because it didn't keep the focus on the Black Sun and the differences it's made on the world. We all like it being some sort of mysterious sentience set on eliminating all other forms of abstract sentience in life, including the Dawn Machine, or the New Dawn.
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>The Dawn Machine and its followers constantly seek new ways to spread and recruit more faithful into the project.
>Some kidnap and brainwash. Others negotiate and try to convince. The insane will even go so far as to kill themselves along with others in an effort to feed souls to the Dawn Machine.
>And one other way comes in the form of just showing what the Dawn Machine has to offer.
>Or at the very least, a small part of it.
>Somehow, be it through a mysterious merchant, an anonymous gift, or someone just finding it in the middle of the night, a village may come in contact with a Dawn Fragment, a piece of separate, burning star fire from the Dawn Machine itself.
>Contact with the fire fills one with a sense of hope and joy long thought extinguished. A supernatural satisfaction from the Dawn Machine itself.
>Prolonged contact with the Dawn Fragment can result in the strengthened resistance to mutations, increased endurance and stamina, and a general sense of vitality.
>Yet if one stays close to the Dawn Fragment for too long, their mind may begin to grow overwhelmed, driving those effected to find the true Dawn Machine, and witness it in its full glory.
>Many question how these Dawn Fragments are even made in the first place, for the exact magic and science behind the Dawn Machine is a mystery.
>Some go so far as to suggest that the Star Makers, the suicide bombers of the Dawn Machine, actually create these Dawn Fragments through their actions, justifying their name.
>Regardless, a Dawn Fragment, when properly managed and used, can strengthen the moral of a fighting force and turn the tide of a battle.
>Just make sure not to stare too deeply into the fragment, or listen too closely to the voices.
>Thread #3 (not archived forever, so take what you can)
someone put it onto sup/tg/ actually, something worth remembering is that an archived thread can still be put onto sup/tg/ as long as you do it before 4chan deletes it;

I did enjoy some of the implications that one Anon made in regards to the Black Sun, especially the whole it having 'Champions' thing. That could be interesting if done well.
Oh don't get me wrong, they were certainly entertaining ideas. Don't take my criticisms as me bashing him into the ground.

While I do think that he had interesting, unique ideas, I do no think that they were implemented with consideration for the world, and moreso for consideration for his idea with the utmost priority.

Which is kinda what we were doing anyway, but I think his ideas could be done better. I might take a look at them later and write about it.
This is a strange question, but we know that everything from guns to space ships still exist by the time the Black Sun comes, they've just become limited resources to many people in the world. But what about other technologies? Are there still places in the world where someone could set up a radio station? Are there people playing electric guitars alongside people with pan flutes and lutes?
I think the thing works against the Black Sun as a portal is that it implies there are things that are a greater threat to the world than the Black Sun. And while that works when those threats are alternatives to the Black Sun (the Dawn Machine being evil, or whatever's going on with the moon), the portal and eldritch abominations pulling the strings behind the scenes makes it come off as "you thought the Black Sun was bad? THIS thing makes it look like nothing!" For as vague and powerful many things are in this setting, there is a sort of power level scale that should be kept, since if everything becomes the next big threat that can beat the Black Sun, the Black Sun becomes pointless.

That said, things like the Titans or ancient champions of the Black Sun are still ideas with potential and do have elements that can work, they just need to be handled in the right way.
I would like to think that, yes
I, of course, do think that they would not be without interference from the Sun in one way, shape, or form, and their rarity is coveted. The more developed, the more sought after, by the rebels and Lords alike.
This is a really good analysis of the setting and of any new content being made. I think a lot of people have really gotten this though, as hopes are scarce, mysterious and elusive, and even dark powers induce insanity, are powerful, and have psychological suggestion. I really do love this setting, everyone has added a lot of amazing content.
I'm gonna pass out. Just wanted to say, keep up the good work everybody. This setting is so much fun to work on, and even if we don't get a lot of people, they people who do contribute and comment are all wonderful.
I love all the people working on this thread. I'm ForeverDM for my group, and I can't wait to run this with my friends.

You guys have done some excellent work, and I love working on this with you all. It's a marvelous setting, and I look forward to adding to this every week. I promise I'll have more stories tomorrow.
Ah shit, you're gonna run the setting? I can't wait to hear how that goes! Make sure to post those in-game stories along with the lore stories once those sessions start happening.
At the moment, we're coordinating backstories in a group of four. Using the Burning Wheel system, never used it before, but I am really liking how it works so far.

I will let everyone know how it goes!
I figured that we were still pre-electricity, around 15-1600's equivalent.

The dark lord of stars has the only advanced technology, with his space ship that acts more like a satellite.
I personally like to think technology from every possible time period exists however the more advanced and powerful stuff is in the hands of the Dark Lords and the Dawn Machine.
I love this setting and would like to participate.

However, there seems to be a huge disconnect between the Google document and the archived threads.
Currently you have to shift through a lot of jarbled threads to get at the good stuff.

If the best stories and setpieces were integrated into the document the story would get more coherent and organized.

I understand the concept of living story but let it not go to waste, for the black sun rots all.
Document Anon is great for getting all the info saved on there, but you're right, there's still some heavy organizing and cleaning up that has to get done.
Is this thread still goin? I wrote up a little fluff about the mountain lord's branded.

>Those that hope to escape the malevolent rays of the black sun by accepting the brand and shelter of the Mountain Lord seldom realize the extent of their error until they are thrust unceremoniously into black pits beneath the mountains.

>The dark lord, known by his chattel as "The Contractor," offers prospective brands with the sweet whispers of refuge and a life of luxury in gilded halls of silver and gold, but only after a "brief" time laboring deep in the mines to pay off the debt of the brand and supplies they are so generously allotted.

>Those few that manage to recoup their exorbitant debt and survive the twisted maze of collapsing tunnels, pockets of poison gas, and ravenous creatures of the everdark are then "rewarded" with a painful transmutation.
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>The Mountain Lord dips his favored in a pool of molten gold infused with wyrd magics and stygian energy. What emerges cannot rightly be called human.

>The Contractor's guardians, mistakenly assumed to be "angels" by those unfamiliar with the dark lord's work, have no true shape but often take the form of hulking men and women.

>They can change their density on a whim, punching through concrete one second and slipping through cracks the next. Their golden flesh, no longer effected by sun's rays, make them perfect as messengers and recruiters.
I left this thread in its first interaction, I read that now the 8 Lords are "done" but
After reading the document I saw that the Mountain Lord lore isn't formed, so I guess I would've give it a try with an idea I had yesterday night.

>The Mountain Lord is also called The Scholar and Archeologist of the world.
>He has a passion for words, informations and the methods they travel and are shared.
>His Goal is to catalogue all the languages of the world, and changing them, after understanding them.
>Understanding because after that happens nobody will be able to hide anything anymore, no code usage will be left unsolved.
>Change will arrive to make resistence useless, in a 1984 kind of way (Removing more words from languages every year so soon enought there will not be words to express concept such as freedom, joy, or something that just came from the age before The Dark Sun)
>Or more in a complicated way, making languages extremely convulated and overly complicated for not apparent reason, or costantly changing
>in this confusion there will be the final victory of the Lord, because the will of the people will matter no longer, if you are not able to express yourself.
>The Mountain Lord is also dedicated on finding any records of the previous age, destroying, modifying them to make it sound that the age before was a shitty one and we are living in the true golden era of humanity.
>But he doesn't take or destroy everything, if something appease him for some reason, he will take that particular thing with him in his secret bunkers under the mountains, where he will analyze them or just keep them locked forever because he just stopped caring or enterely forgot about that thing.
>Because of this the Lord of the Mountain is the richest of the Dark Lords, but he doesn't even realize it.
>If some people would enter one of his mountain bunkers, their mind would literally shatter on the vision of such alien things to their conception of reality.
The debt angle is really clever, actually, this is some neat lore. Do the guardians have any free will of their own, or are they basically mindless drones once they're dipped in gold?
Sorry about the post it may be convoluted but I wrote it on the go and the character limit hit me hard.
If I could add onto this.

>The "language" that the Mountain Lord attempts to force onto his followers is a simplistic one designed purely for the main goal of his Branded; mining.
>"Useless" words are not in the language, it serves only as a system to give orders and respond to those orders, without much else.
>The Branded under his debt still speak their languages in secret, but they must do so only when they are positive there are no prying eyes in sight, be they human or one of the Mountain Lord's nightcrawlers.

I imagined them sort of like terminators: Intelligent but utterly bent to the will and parameters of the Mountain Lord.
Limiting that to his followers and nobody else would basically cripple the original idea.

It may be hazardous to say... But what about a ninth Dark Lord with this same idea without having to change the Mountain Lord's fluff?
I don't know, I do think the language angle, while not the first thing that comes to mind when you think of the Mountain Lord, does have some potential to it. Not every Dark Lord agrees with the other ones, so if the Mountain Lord did want to create a society of pure work where hopeful ideas can't be expressed, he would need to start with just his followers. Or at the very least, scale it back a bit so he offers the use of language only to those who prove themselves as being better than just work horses.

If people don't want to go with the idea though and save it for someone else, I would suggest giving it to a new faction, but not a new Dark Lord. Maybe a group from the cities trying to control the ignorant working class.
New name suggestion for the Mountain Lord:

The Hoarder.

my logic being this could easily encapsulate a lot of his personality traits. He hoards gold. He hoards knowledge. He jealously guards against all forms of theft, sending out his golden servants to collect what he thinks he is owed.

Despite the risks, many adventurers still delve deep in the dark lord's vaults. All hoping to find treasures and secrets which might lead to deliverance from this hellish world.
That sounds neat anon.
>Therected are many monsters that infest this vile land, some of them even being on par with the Dark Lords themselves in terms of power. One of these abominations is known as the Queen Of A Thousand Faces.
>Rumored to have been born directly from the Black Sun itself, this terrible creature wears may guises, acting under innumerable masks and spreads ruin and destruction wherever it goes. Not even the Dark Lords with all their terrible power are safe from this Fiend and its countless ploys and schemes.
>The creatures most well known mask is that of a woman wearing a dress composed of flowing colours, and always singing some macabre tune that seems to linger on the wind.
Where is the canon? I fucking want to use this setting in forum quest.
Canon is basically determined by how much people agree on. If someone posts an idea, and it's an idea that comes up a lot in other stories and posts, it's hard canon. If it's an idea that's only brought up once or twice and doesn't seem well received, consider it soft canon that doesn't need to be followed.

Also, if you do go through it, make sure to post results and stories. We've got one guy who's going to run the setting with some buddies and seeing how it works in action can really help with future developments.
>The Dark Lords, quick to blame each other for conspiracy and slow to accept anything as being a legitimate threat to them (they STILL state publicly that the Dawn Machine does not exist), the Dark Lords are quick to say that this Queen of A Thousand Faces is simply a powerful minion of a rival.
>The Dark Lord blamed the most for her creation is the Lord of Vermin, and at first glance there is great evidence for it.
>The Lord of Vermin is also known as the Lord of A Thousand Eyes.
>Like the Vermin Lord, this Queen is a master of deception, spying, and trickery.
>The Vermin Lord, being the master of spies, is often accused of trying to destabilize the other Lords, much like the Queen has been attempting to do.
>There are problems with this theory, as the Queen has reportedly attempted to sabotage the Vermin Lord as well.

>There are other theories, though wild, as well.
>Some believe she is the daughter of the Vermin Lord, bent on taking power for herself.
>Others think she is a potential candidate for the 9th Dark Lord, though she does not seem to be claiming land as a Dark Lord would.
>And of course, there are some who suggest she is directly sent from the Dark Sun itself, trying to slap some sense into the bickering Dark Lords.
I have plan to play a quest on Sufficent Velocity, I think. I thought to make players choose between either from Lords to play as servant in service and get into the schemes between their servants, Lords and such kind of meddling. Seems to be main focus of the setting.

Any other ideas for quest?
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Dumping a storytiem:

>The slug in Yurrid's brain was agitated. A wave of nausea overwhelmed him as he felt its slimy body writhe around inside his skull. Yurrid pulled his buckram world-flesh mask aside to briefly wretch. While emptying his stomach, Yurrid reflected on the creature's right to be nervous.

>It was much more common for the branded of the vermin king to be discretely implanted with a symbiote and then released back out into the world to infiltrate some rebel outpost or another dark lord's settlement. Very rarely were they required to work in a more official capacity. And now here he sat, a diplomat of the Thing with a Thousand Eyes, at the foot of the Hoarder’s Vault, hoping that whatever envoy the Mountain Lord sent was in a good mood.

>Even amongst the branded, his kind were viewed with distrust and hostility. Many assumed that those implanted were completely controlled by the slugs. The truth was more complicated. Certainly, he felt impulses, emotions, a silent scream to do a certain thing or perform a certain task as the symbiote flooded his brain with hormones and the occasional electrical jolt. But HE was still the conductor behind the wheel. At any moment, Yurrid could throw himself off a cliff or bash his head in with a rock. The symbiote was very well aware that itself and he were, in a quite literal sense, in this together. And right now, it was scared.

>Suddenly, the gates of the Vault began to creak open. Yurrid straightened himself out, wiping the remnants of his earlier indiscretion off the front of his wrappings. Two golden giants, one male and one female, stepped out of the dark recesses of the entrance and waited rigidly, gazing contemptuously down at him. Yurrid wasn't a short man, but these things towered over him regardless. He bowed as deeply as his stiff garments would allow,

>"Well met, illustrious representatives of His wise and holy self: The Dark Lord of the Mountain, the Scholar, The Contractor, First-and-Last-of-His-Name-Which-Shall-Never-be-Uttered, and humble servant of The Black Sun. I hope briefly to entreat with you on behalf of my master, the many-eyed Vermin Lord."


>Yurrid did his best to suppress the shudder running down his spine. The thing's voice was like mixture of a metal dagger scraping against granite and the whine of radio static.

>"Of course, I will dispense with the formalities. It has recently come to my master's attention that your king has come across a stygian relic that allows voices to penetrate the Black Sea. My master has long wished to establish more regular contact with The Deepfarer and the gilled-folk. I have come in hopes of somehow acquiring the device."


>Yurrid bowed even deeper than before, any more and he'd have his face in the dirt. "Unfortunately, the vermin lord cannot always keep track of his interminable servants. Many wander where they will despite his demands. An admitted weakness of my master. Of course, He-of-a-Thousand-Eyes does not abide such transgressions for long. In exchange for the device, my lord is willing to expose each and all of his astray vessels to the Mountain Lord, to do with whatever your master wills."
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>The two golden idols abruptly turned around and walked back into the mountain. Yurrid, stared into abyss of the cavern. As he followed, quieting the squirming of his symbiote, he wondered if he would ever see the dark light of the sun again.
>on Sufficent Velocity
>Sufficient Velocity
That is an absolutely horrible place to do anything quest related. You would have more luck attracting a good audience on /qst/ than you would on that shithole.
I've always seen the potential of quest lines in this setting to really focus on three main types of people. Loyalists who deal with grimdark political schemes of their masters and the crazy mutations/dark magic that follow, Rebels trying to be sneaky and sabotaging things, and Scribes/Curators exploring for knowledge/lore/artifacts.

As for specific quests, I could suggest a few if you want to go for the loyal route, but we'd have to know what your general idea for a campaign/session would be.
Forums give more place to set up shit. I hate little quest format.

I really like the ideas about three focuses! Well... Did you read Black Company? I imagine that it would be squabble into the life of servants of Lords, just like Taken from BC.
Never read Black Company, but that's a series that's been brought up in these threads before, interestingly enough.

But what you need to decide, if you want to focus mainly on trying to squeeze into power and rise through the ranks of a Dark Lord's legion, you need to decide which Dark Lord you want to focus on as their boss, since each Dark Lord is different and probably handles their servants and how they rise differently.

For example, serving the Star Lord or the Lord of Cities might give the players more freedom to prove themselves in a variety of ways, but serving the Plant Lord is basically a nightmare scenario where you'd be doing everything in your power not to be turned into flower food.
The idea of brain parasites to control spies is both terrifying and perfect for the Vermin Lord. Plus the political back and forth between different Branded is always nice to see.
That shall be up to them, I plan to run an forum quest, not session. I shall give explanation what each Lord service may look like. They may always switch sides, too.
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>Beneath the corrosive waves of the Black Waters, its Lord is forever focused on his studies. Tables in disarray, brews and enchantments scattered about, runes scrawled all across his papers, but he focuses on the specimen instead, pinned to his wall on an examination table.
. . .
>A Branded of the Dark Architect, Vidkun opened his eyes from an uneasy slumber to see the very Dark Lord of the Black Waters pacing in front of him, reading off clipboards and lists of what he assumed were ingredients to his assistants in a mechanical, garbled tone, to the point where he could not recognize the language.
>Vidkun struggled against his bindings, expressing his displeasure, but surprised at the fact that they had restrained him unharmed.
>With these sounds, however, came the Dark Lord's undivided attention. Towering to his full height, the Lord was a full man's height taller than Vidkun, who was already considered rather tall for his build.
>The Dark Lord was wrapped in a water-beaten coat, with a glowing metal harness on his chest, strange goggles underneath his hood, a metal facemask covering his mouth, and a metallic pack where spindling limbs holding multiple surgical tools, ointments and inks gestured about his stature; his strange rubber overalls beneath his coat leaving an aged sweater exposed.
>He did not seem as intimidating as Vidkun was told, but the Lord decided to change his thought with an utterance.
"I see you have decided to join us, Vidkun of the Architect. I know not why you have appeared within my domain. I am not foolish enough, however, to think that you happened here upon some accident, being washed here with the Black Sea closing upon your caravan."
>The Lord's voice chimed in a deep, reverberating tone, but spoke in a singsong voice that enunciated every few words with an intimidating melodic quality.
"Regardless of your presence here, I have been wanting to... test a device of trivial matter to you."
>Vidkun scoffed. Trivial. Certainly.
Ah, fair enough. If you wind up doing it, make sure to post a link or something in the thread or whenever the next general is, I'd love to see how it goes.
>All of these theories are unverified, and there is evidence pointing towards all of them.
>Those few who have encountered the Queen or one of her myriad masks and have asked of her origins, are usually met with very cryptic responses that do not truly elaborate onto the true nature of the Queen.
>The only ones besides the Queen herself, that might know of her true nature are the Mourners. When asked about the Queen, the Mourners reply in a similarly cryptic fashion, but some information can be gleamed fromantic the few phrases they speak of her.
>"Dread Queen, Spaces In-Between
Scourge Of Worlds, Ender Of Light
Devouring Night, The Creeping End."
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>The Dark Lord seemed to be unphased by the specimen's mockery, quite content with his level of security, and the experimental procedure he intended to carry out.
"For you see, Vidkun," The Dark Lord began, "I have something that everyone wants. I am aware of this. However, you, specifically, have something that I want, myself."
>The Branded, foolhardy and dense, believed himself to have the upper hand, and convinced himself that he needn't be afraid of the figure towering before him. Now that he can see the Lord himself, it seemed rather trivial of a matter to crush his thin frame.
>Not the smartest man, or the sharpest, but conniving to a fault, he believed that the myths and legends that the rebels told him were merely children's stories at this point, and thought, if he were cunning enough, he could take one of the very Dark Lords down by himself.
>The Dark Lord seemed to be unaware of Vidkun's ploy, he thought to himself, and decided to continue with his blunt behavior to lower the Lord's guard.
>Vidkun was used to being seen as stupid, but was a tad smarter than he looked. People underestimate him due to his wits, but are surprised by his strategy, his nimble actions. So Vidkun decided to wait.
The Dark Lord continued to prattle, "A core of the Mechanical Men is far and few between, for they are too difficult for the Branded to handle, but too far and scarce for us Lords to send precious agents to 'deal with the problem,' but here you arrive, dropping a precious core onto my lap."
>The Lord gestured to a cloth on his table, where the spherical core, dripping with a black grime, glowed dimly like a small Black Sun encased in steel.
"The other Lords know that while I am knowledgeable, and remain of great utility to their caravans, that I am weak without the control of the water, and that I have no agents, guards or monstrosities that pace near my domain mindlessly. I now have the schematic to prove them wrong, and now I can test this theory."
>Mechanical Man plot point
ayyyy glad someone liked the idea.
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>The Lord raised the core up to the light, cleaning it off as much as he could with the cloth, and lowered the table on the wall, allowing Vidkun to lie flat, while the Lord grabbed his scalpels to prepare for surgery.
>Vidkun had been using the Lord's chatter as a distraction, using the time to pick the restraint's locks. Waiting for when the Lord got close enough, where Vidkun would wring his neck and shatter the Lord's goggles with his forehead.
>The core intimidated Vidkun, however. The rebels had sent him here with the core to be captured on purpose, so that the Lord would be able to reverse-engineer it, figure out how it was made, and then Vidkun was to escape with the plans once detained and tortured.
>Torture was what Vidkun was used to. He was used to being put in jails, whipped, beaten, bled, burnt, and stabbed, and escaping by the skin of his teeth. His luck was inhuman, slippery as an eel.
>This was not what Vidkun was used to. He did not expect a personal audience with the Lord himself, but decided not to back down now, because the rebels were going to create golems with this information, to fight back themselves. Vidkun was to be paid immensely.
>The Lord turned back to his specimen on the table, and peered over the table, shining a blinding lamp onto the table, and cutting open the Branded's clothes, marking lines in his flesh with ink.
>As the Lord's head approached closer, to examine the blood veins and mutated strength of his specimen, Vidkun took the small window of opportunity he had, and reached for the Lord's skeletal frame.
>By the time his arm reached his target, there was nothing to grasp with, his fingers didn't seem to work, and felt numb. Vidkun looked down to see that his hand lied upon the floor, bleeding and contorting profusely, as a large blade from the mechanical pack was being cleaned of bone and hemoglobin.
>Vidkun looked up in a refreshed sense of horror. He would not escape this time.
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>When Vidkun awoke, his body was no longer his, and his mind felt clear. No more voices nagging in his head. No more insecurities, pressures, or pain. An immense feeling of relief washed over him. He had not fought the Dark Lord of Black Waters after all.
>He rose to a slump holding his head in his hands, thinking. His limbs had no more sense of weariness, the twisting mutations and the nagging of the Sun felt like a distant memory. His Brand was no longer burnt into his flesh, and the wounds, scars, and dead tissue from his years of torture, jailing and pain were gone.
>He raised his head from his hands. His hands. Hands! He had not lost his hand like he thought he had in that horrible nightmare. Why would he have fought against a Lord? Was he in his right mind? Only someone absolutely insane would do that.
>Lowering his gaze to look upon his hand, he froze. Where his wrist connected to his hand, he saw machine. Winches and joints connected his forearm to his hand, wires dangled from an open panel on his hand, and the wires connected to flesh and nerve from his arm to his shoulder.
>A majority of his body was metal now, but enough of his flesh was left to take advantage of his mutation without its drawbacks, the adrenaline in his body regulated by a spinal tap driven into his back, with mechanical reinforcement within his spine to absorb shock.
>Lowering further to look at his chest, a cavity where his heart was pulsated with the color blue, and rotated itself to glow at him. As if it were an innocent eye gazing at its father.
>Vidkun's mind was hazy, he felt as if he should be afraid of this new body he has obtained, but was confused as well. He felt as though he had done the Lord of Black Waters a wrong, but he had been given a great gift from the Lord himself.
>His Lord had decided him worthy to perform a task for him. To act in efficiency to destroy the rebels who would poison his mind, and Vidkun knew where the base resided.
Mystic murder cyborgs from the bottom of the sea.
Gotta say, that'd be a terrifying enemy to fight in a game.
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Another strange but potentially interesting question.

We know the Black Sun's rays corrupt everything they get into. We know that it rains in this world. So the question is what is a rainbow in the Black Sun setting like? Is it somehow corrupted by the Black Sun? Does it look the exact same? Does it inspire hope or dread?
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Hm. So a rainbow is the light from the source being refracted from the light passing through it, like a prism, right?

I like to think it would be some demented shades of colors, like you ran a rainbow underneath a black light, and that they affect the surroundings in some way, shape, or form.

Perhaps strange crystal formations that are used as foci for dark magic? Or perhaps they warp the surroundings and people in the area?
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The colors are upside down.
Document anon here: what stories from the previous threads do you think should be included that i haven't? i've left out things that were unpopular and things that didnt fit with other popular, established pieces.
Finally a good name for this lord!
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>see this thread on catalog
>think fa/tg/uys are making a "fork" of the Dark Sun setting
>get interested
>check thread
>its only an edgelord fanfic-tier shitfest
My original thought was that the 8 dark lords were named after their occupations before, as the 8 bright nobles.

it makes it more like they have kept some part of their character, but it has been grossly mutated by the coming of the black sun, which they caused.
>Wanting more generic trash to infest this board.
Get out. /Tg/ has been the place for world building threads from its very conception. It was only h you fags infested the board that everything became the same bland tripe being endlessly regurgitated.
>Actual Dark Sun
>Not also an edgefest
Sometimes you gotta embrace that edge life, anon. Builds character.

Yeah well yer a jerk.
Not the same anon, and this is more about the document as a whole than the story stuff (I actually think you got most of the good stories down, last time I checked) but if you could, just shifting around some of the faction stuff in the earlier pages could help clean up/clear up some confusion the document may cause. For example, last time I checked we get personality info on the Dark Lords before we get to the real list of the Dark Lords one by one. There's like, 40 something pages on the document and a lot of shit to shift through, so obviously it might take you awhile, but making sure that info in the first few pages clearly runs through the important basic info, and then gets into the more detailed stuff, could make getting more contributors easier.

you are welcome to suggest fixes to your complaints.
You could sum up most of the setting with "The sun is actually the reincarnated spirit of gary gyax fucking with the world. Monte Cook is his foul, blasphemous angel."
What do people eat in this world?
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I giggled.
Someone actually made a pretty good post for this, actually.

>For food, most will feed off of one another, from hunting the strange beasts around the area, or farming the violent livestock. For some, the untouched vermin and insects have become a source of food, which the Lord of Vermin looks upon with a bittersweet thought. Of course, vermin eat other vermin, but if other agents of Lords are eating his eyes, he does not take a liking to this injustice. For the Lord of the Fire, his Branded oft run abattoirs and butcheries for the meat which is hunted by the Dark Lord of the Hound, as livestock is not easy to raise for most. Least of all, by the Lord of the Plant. The Lord of the Plant produces dark, succulent fruit of deep crimson, and earthy brown vegetables that are full of nutrition and dense in energy, but cause extreme psychedelic dreams, visions and desires about wanting to become a plant. Most farmers grow mushrooms that feed off of the rot, and grow cheese with the assorted molds. Wine and alcohol have become commenplace, as it is usually cleaner than water. Water is actually distributed by the Dark Lord of the City, his aqueducts that run dark, unpleasant water that is relatively safe from the peaks of mountains and from his high walls, collecting rain and snow. Meals are simple, but there are some culinaries that hunt with the Dark Lord of the Hound in order to live out their perverse gluttony and test their skill.

Just to be clear, the bright lords are different from the abstracts correct?

I sort of like the idea the abstracts having all collectively fucked up so bad that they basically obliterated themselves and only ugly, diminished versions of themselves exist which became the dark lords.

as far as water is concerned the Lord of the Mountain probably has access to underground water veins and virgin springs.
the bright lords and abstracts are different, yes.

and its just a vague setting that you are welcome change for your own use however you like.
The Abstracts are basically the gods of the setting, most of them dead/dying now, and what remains of their power being used by rebels and clerics.

The bright nobles were what the Dark Lords were called before *something* they did summoned the Black Sun and mutated them so heavily that they became the Dark Lords. We don't have a lot of details about what they were like before becoming Dark Lords, but some lore implies that they might have been at war with the Abstracts for unknown reasons.
Totally. Same would go for the rebel groups that hide underground/in mountains as well. We also know that water can be purified by a cleric, but a lot of people (especially branded) probably have to suck it up and drink the tainted water.
Story anon here, been lurking while playing Dota, let me know if you want me to write anything else. I like the discussion going on, and I love the stories people have been doing so well today. Great work everyone.

I really like >>54614400's story, and I like how we've been trying to do more intimate stories about individuals, quality of life, everyday life, and some more depth on the citizens of the world.

Keep it up. I'm thinking, as always.
Obviously write whatever stories seem most interesting to you, but since we are focusing on personal stories and what life is like for people, maybe a few stories from the Architect's cities current hurt. Sure, we have a few already, but I imagine that since they're one of the few "civilized" places out there, there's a lot of stories that could be told.
I was just having a block on what to write about, asking for ideas is always fun, I like to know what people want to know about, what interests them about the setting.

I really enjoy fleshing out the parts that either need it or people want to see. But the Architect in like this fantasy city/slum with some development, dark politics, corruption and new trades... I like the idea of having guilds like in feudel times. I'll get on it.
Someone made an Abaddon in the first thread but it didn't stick, but I guess you could repurpose it as "one exceptional Branded", after all everyone seemed to like the thought of Branded infiltrating their enemies
Speaking of Dota, some items would be nice? Something something Artifacts of the Abstract
no rush though anon, I'll just bump
I'll probably end up getting to it on the next general, I know Docu-Anon wants to record everything, and the weekend is over pretty soon. Rather than coming up with everything last minute, though, I will be writing drafts through the week, so that the next general will be rife with stories, fun and discussion. I really want people to enjoy the setting as much as possible.

I will get around to it, now that I know what people are interested in. Interpersonal stuff, few characters, civilized towns, the Architect's cities, slum life, Vermin life, and items or exceptional branded of some descriptions. I will happily get to it, I am a lot more free this week. I'll spend time on it.

Until next time! I'm glad everyone's taken to this setting so much, worldbuilding is one of my favorite things to do for fantasy, and there are more and more amazing writers joining us every minute. Keep it up, guys! See you next weekend!
Thanks for the thread this weekend. A lot of inspiration.

My critique of the document was well-meaning. Not being a douche
Maybe something on some of the factions that havent got a lot of background to them yet. Id love to hear more about the Mourners or the Stitchers. Can't wait to see what fantastic creations you come up with Story Anon!
Dark Sun is actually full cliche SJW, the stories center around "slavery is bad mkay?" and "let's protect the environment" and "lets defeat the evil king and create a new government that cares for the people" themes. Its a harsh setting inspired by Dune but it isn't played any different than any other D&D setting.

You guys are designing a world so harsh, so edgy and so grimderp that it is becoming literally ridiculous.
Can''t speak for everyone else, but that's what I've been going for.
Is there any possibility to contact you, Story Anon?
It's got plenty of edge, sure, but the idea that I think keeps it from going off the deep end is the fact that it's a setting that's still designed to be fought against. Rebellions and resistance groups are still a big factor, it's not doom and gloom with nothing else. The grimdark is varied and bizarre to create different stories, including situations where people will attempt to fight back, or Lords will fight each other, or giant sun machines will rise, or the moon and dead gods make a comeback, or someone finds magical world healing artifacts. If the setting was nothing but complete edge, all those elements would be gone, but that's really not the case in this setting, because hope is still a driving force.
Thanks. It's the first thing I've written in a while and I'm glad people got a kick out of it.

Have you read "Perdido Street Station" by China Mieville? His depiction of Bas-lag is a lot how I'm imagining The Architect's City.

Colossal modern and futuristic architecture towering over punky, dark age slums. Branded being fused with metal to be used as transportation, warriors, or whatever the Architect needs.

If you're still having some writer's block, the Apothecaries seem like a great area to write a more intimate perspective from. I mean, they're a bunch mad scientists conducting wild, uncontrolled experiments on large segments of the population.
Take a look to this
Is this the end of the Black Sun?
It's the end of this thread. All things considered this first general went really well. Good stories, more people interested in contributing, all that good stuff. Someone just has to make another general thread Friday night, and things should be just fine.
I don't have time to check ALL the threads sadly, otherwise I would suggest things based on them.
If someone would update the document with all the fluff, I'm sure it will be easier to contribute without having to check 3 threads full of fluff.
I hope document anon will get this thread and save it.

Also we should do some shit to contact each other on Google docs.
4chan semi-archives threads for awhile before the vanish, and since we can't get away with trying to archive all the threads up suptg, it's really best just to post the thread links on there when they appear and have document anon take what he can.

Organizing everything's pretty difficult, I'm sure, so we can't expect everything to be put on and edited quickly.
Eh, don't feel too bad about letting this thread go out, document anon still has plenty of time to take what he needs even if the thread 404s. Plus, people need time to figure out new ideas anyway.

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