>the Cycle happened again and Zeus has been overthrown by his childrenWhat do you think about Apollo as a candidate?
>>51541954Wrong picture selected.
>>51541954A Theomachy would be pretty boss, but I think it greatly depends on which side each of the gods fall on and how everything goes down, as well as what touches off the Theomachy to begin with.If we want to be truly Greek, we have two good options:1) Zeus and Apollo both lust after the same woman, whom I'll call Doricha. They compete for her affections, and Doricha ultimately chooses Apollo over Zeus. Enraged by this outcome, Zeus strikes Doricha dead in some suitably deific way. This enraged Apollo, and the Theomachy begns.2) Zeus, being Zeus, finds himself stricken with lust for Artemis, Apollo's twin sister, and forces himself on her (or at least attempts to). Regardless of whether or not he succeeds, Apollo is enraged by Zeus attempting to compromise Artemis' chastity and oath of virginity, as well as trying to harm his sister. So, again, the Theomachy begins.The principle difference between the two is that in the first scenario, Artemis might side with Zeus against Apollo, whereas in the latter, Artemis will certainly be on Apollo's side.
>>51541954Apollo is probably the best candidate for humans.But I'mma give it to my boy Ares. Ushering in an age of darkness and endless warfare for mankind.And that's how I begin my Mad Max Post-apocalyptic Campaign.
>>51542130>AresMost the city-states didn't think he was that powerful. He was revered in other ways, but in an actual contest of arms other gods were seen as superior. Especially Athena.
I vaguely remember there being an actual prophecy that Athena would be the one to overthrow Zeus.
Apollo is certainly the strongest candidate. Popular amongst gods and mortals, pretty skilled and not a cunt (by greek god standards). The rest of men are unreliable (Dyonisus, Ares) or weak willed "betas" (Hephaestus). Maybe I could see Hermes ruling like his counterpart Odin ruled the germanic pantheon.>>51542130Nobody in Mount Olympus liked Ares, except for Aphrodita who wanted him as a fucktoy. And basically everyone bested him. It's unlikely he would rule shit. He was the olympic That Guy.
>>51541954>>51542234>The story of her birth comes in several versions. In the one most commonly cited, Zeus lay with Metis, the goddess of crafty thought and wisdom, but he immediately feared the consequences. It had been prophesied that Metis would bear children more powerful than the sire, even Zeus himself. In order to prevent this, Zeus swallowed Metis. He was too late: Metis had already conceived.>Eventually Zeus experienced an enormous headache; Prometheus, Hephaestus, Hermes, Ares, or Palaemon (depending on the sources examined) cleaved Zeus’ head with the double-headed Minoan axe, the labrys. Athena leaped from Zeus’ head, fully grown and armed, with a shout—"and pealed to the broad sky her clarion cry of war.Not exactly prophecy of theomachy, but still implies her power, and his fear thereof
>>51541954Deus vultI'm not even Christian, but obvious meme is obvious (and historically accurate).
>>51542268>not a cuntFlashbacks to him personally coming down to beat the shit out of Patroclus so Hector could finish him off
>>51542268Athena had an entire city-state in her name, and represented wisdom and forethought, a divergence from Greece's spiritual and superstitious traditions.
Apollo has sex with minotaurs for money
>>51542130Ares and Hephaestus are the only sons of Zeus and Hera, aren't they? They're probably the only ones who have a legitimate claim, then. But Hephaestus doesn't seem like the kind who's want to rule.Here's what I'm thinking.ZEUS LOYALISTS - Zeus himself, of course - Hera stands by her man - Demeter, who remains loyal to her brother - Poseidon supports his brother - Ares, since he wants the throne for himself. - - Phobos and Deimos both support Ares, of course. - - Enyo, sister and wife of Ares - Hephaestus, who is browbeaten into supplying the weapons (and might betray Zeus if/when possible) - Heracles, who is loyal to his father and is genuinely honorable and regrets the war - Hebe, daughter of Zeus and Hera. Would greatly desire to leave, but is cowed by Zeus.APOLLO REBELS - Apollo himself, of course. - Artemis most likely supports her brother. - Athena, who seeks to see justice done since Apollo was wronged - Hermes, as he is after all a god of transition - - Iris, since Hermes is her boss - Asclepius, who supports his boss Apollo (both are associated with medicine and healing) - Eos, personification of the dawn, supports Apollo, her boss - Eris, out of love for all the chaos this is causing - Nemesis, since she's the goddess of retribution and revenge - Triton, looking to overthrow Poseidon so he can rule the seas - Nike, goddess of victory...which is immensely troubling to Zeus.NEUTRAL - Aphrodite, who has little interest in war. - - Eros, who like his mother has little interest in the war - Dionysus, who couldn't care less - Hestia, who is more concerned with humans. - Hades, who has his own shit to worry about - - Persephone remains loyal to Hades - Nyx She's busy - Pan. Busy with humans - Hecate, maybe. She might actually be on Apollos' side - Ditto the Moirai (fates).
>>51542372How would that make him a cunt?>>51542385>woman in charge of the whole pantheonOne thing is the patron deity of the hegemonic city (who just happens to be female) getting buffs and retcons that benefit her as the city gets more and more influential in politics and culture, but that's too much.
>>51542446>Persephone>Due to civil war, Hades doesn't let her go to visit her mother>World is in perpetual winter time during the battlesOh, shit, this civil war could turn Greece into a bunch of tundra islands
>>51542446Considering that Hades' rule depends on the statu quo established by Zeus, I don't think he could stay neutral on the long term.Which doesn't mean that he should side with Zeus or even take a side from the start, but he got his domain on the last rebellion and he's probably intelligent enough to know he could lose it in this one if he's not in the winner's side.
>>51542446Hephaestus is not Zeus' son, he was born of Hera aloneAnd Hera has on MULTIPLE occasions been subtly or directly antagonistic to Zeus' aims.
>>51542572I'm more thinking he stays neutral because while the Theomachy is going down, it's his job to make sure the Titans and Giants don't use the opportunity to break out of Tartaros - or, gods forbid, TYPHON breaks out.>>51542546Shit, that's a thing.
>>51542475>woman in charge of the whole pantheonIsn't that the biggest switch up there could be?And if you're disregarding political effects on the mythos then there are A LOT of changes that need to be made to ALL the gods
>>51542446>Hera>Helping her man>In a conflict spawned from him trying to cheat on her>Implying she wouldn't want him just beaten into submission so he can have him all to herself for once
>>51542622Myths are inconsistent. Hephaestus is also said to be Zeus' son. Sometimes.
>>51541954I believe that bacho was the one profetized to win this...
>>51542622>Hephaestus is not Zeus' son, he was born of Hera aloneNot according to the Illiad and the Odyssey. Hephaestus just being Hera's kid alone is found in Hesiod's work. The issue is that using Hesiod's version creates an inconsistency - the most common version of Athena's birth is that Hephaestus is the one who split Zeus' head open, making Hephaestus necessarily older, but in the parthenogenesis version Hera gave birth to Hephaestus in revenge for Zeus giving birth to Athena, which would make him necessarily younger.
>>51542268Remember that time Apollo killed a guy for challenging him to a musical competition?
>>51542645All I say is, if we're gonna discuss ancient greek mythology, we should keep it bearable to ancient greek sensibilities even if it's fanfiction. There's no need to completely disregard Athena being strong and overpowered, I'm just explaining why she is and why it wouldn't work to put her in charge of the Olympians.For starters, I don't think it's in character for Athena to do something so anathema to greeks as ruling a family like a man.
>>51542731Well, the (by greek god standards) was important. Even Athena who is basically a perfect pure waifu and always on the side of the righteous had her moments of autistic fit.
Is there even a single story from Greek myth that casts Ares in a positive light? He just comes across as an angry retard who embodies all the worst aspects of warfare. Who runs crying to his dad when a mortal actually hurts him a fight.
>>51542822That's some sense I can groc to.Would she fight at all? She assisted in the Trojan war, namely against Apollo and Ares, even allowing a mortal to harm Ares.
>>51542859I know, just thought it was worth bringing up. And you are right, she has clearly taken losing a beauty contest to the literal goddess of beauty pretty damn hard in the Iliad.
>>51542653I don't think she would help the son of her husband and another godess either, tho.My take on the matter is that, inside Zeus team, there's a third side leaded by Ares with Hera behind him.
>>51542908She undeniably likes to participate in conflicts or at least thinks it's her duty, she is not the kind of goddess to stay passive. She would take the side of whoever she though to be the righteous one, which is Zeus in almost every situation except maybe >>51542446 (althought we could argue that it's Zeus right to go around raping women and he did nothing technically wrong).
>>51542938Yeah, I can see that. Poseidon, too, is likely hoping to use the situation to his advantage.Basically Apollo has generally weaker gods on his side, but they have a better unity of purpose. The only one with truly ulterior motives are Eris and Triton, but neither of their motives are incompatible with Apollo's...though Eris might switch sides on a whim. But she might switch back on a whim, too. Zeus has the generally mightier gods on his side, but Hephaestus and Hebe would like to get the Heck out of dodge as soon as possible, Hera and Ares (and Phobos and Deimos and Enyo) are looking to spin things so that Ares ends up ruling instead (with Hera as the power behind the throne), while Poseidon is also looking for an opportunity to take over. Poseidon is, ironically, more overt and ineffectual about it, though. Ares would be, but Hera's guiding him, and Hera's far more crafty.The only truly loyal people Zeus has on his side are Demeter and Heracles.There's also like a million other deities that could fall on either end of the spectrum depending on what OP wants.
>>51543047I'm liking this more every time.
>>51542882When some fucker raped Alcippe, Ares' daughter, Ares straight up murdered him and barely got off when he was put on trial by the other gods.Not exactly 'positive light' but better than Athena 'Wow medusa how dare you get raped by Poseidon in my temple have a curse'
>>51542446Everyone assumed Ganymede would side with Zeus, seeing as the latter was made a god and Royal cup-bearer by the former. He remained on mount Olympus for much of the war, beside Hebe, but defected to Apollo's camp with her and Hera when Zeus got it in to his head to consume other gods late in the war, as a means or incapacitating immortals.
>>51543211It's kind of iffy, but I always wondered if it was a misguided blessing, meant to prevent further rape. Or maybe it was a way to get back at Poseidon. Either way, goddess of justice my ass.
>>51543318>different people can't have different ethicsThe girl was to blame as much as Poseidon, if not more. Since she was a mortal and Poseidon was not, she was the only one being punished. That's justice in the context of the tale.>>51543211The "some fucker" was a son of Ares too. He managed to commit one of the worst crimes ever, killing your own son, even when doing something apparently sympathetic (both for us and greeks since Ares was forgiven).
>>51542572Considering that he got the short end of the stick being turned into basically just an overglorified Jailer with some pretty scenery in certain parts, he probably would be Neutral. Whoever begins winning the battles near the end is the one that he'd back, but only at the end, because he wants to make sure everything's fine. He probably wouldn't fight certain gods though, since he's ultra-pussywhipped by Persephone.Hades/Pluto/Orcus is best God and the eldest brother.
>>51541954Well, that woud have been the case, were Zeus not a bit more savvy.After the Titans, there were the Olympians and after them there should have been the Giants. Like Cronus did with Uranus and Zeus did with Cronus, the giants would have done with Zeus, but they were defeated and trapped by the Olympians.This is one interpretation at least. Some sources vary on the Giants being the next step after the Olympians, but I like to think that.It would make the failure to overthrow the lords of the world an invalid state for the world, an existential error. Very Dark Souls if you ask me.>>51542095>TheomachyBy the way what I think EVERY religion should have as end goal for humanity at large. Because every child will surpass it's father's station in the end.
>>51543445But what kind of shitty ethics system blames the rape victim? Odds are she did everything to prevent it, ad rather than go after the perpetrator, Athena further punishes the victim?
>>51541954Wouldn't humanity be the next rulers in that scenario though?Aren't we the next gen, under the gods?
>>51543447Now that I think about it, maybe it would be in Hades' best interests to actually back Apollo/Zeus in order to get a better realm. Maybe he could convince Apollo to give him the Sea since he's a much more powerful ally than Triton. Or Zeus if we take this >>51543047 as canon (which I would) and Poseidon gets too far with his defiance. Or even with Ares.Hades is a pretty passive god in greek myth, but that's because we always see him doing this job he doesn't really like. Maybe he would be more active if he saw the opportunity of getting a better realm to rule and be comfy in.
>>51543492>But what kind of shitty ethics system blames the rape victim?Plenty around the world and ages. You know, the point of different ethics system is that they MUST be shitty and ilogic for you who come from another one.
>>51543445It was Poseidons son. Also Zeus is about as powerful as everybody else put together. So there is that to consider.
>>51543510Not literally, as is the case with Chronos and Zeus.In fact, we were created by a Titan and Zeus hates us so much he created women to punish us.
>>51543567The only source where I can check it right now says it was Ares' son. Of course, it's you know what website and not very reliable.
>>51543492Even countries that pretend to be sympathetic towards rape victims still ostracize them.
>>51543548>>51543597But Greeks considered the perpetrator to be at fault. Even if Athena didn't feel bad for the victim, straight up punishing her for being raped? And then not doing jack to the rapist?
>>51541954This makes me think: Would mortals play a role in this war? Mortals are pretty important in greek mythology (although most of them are heroes so not exactly normal mortals).I think that most mortals would side with Apollo or whoever is against Zeus, really. Zeus literally hated humans while Apollo was very, very popular.
>>51543569But then, Apollo isn't really directly under Zeus either, as is the case with Titans and Gods.Sure technically Zeus is king, but he still only technically has domain over the sky.
>>51541954FUCK APOLLOINVICTUS SUTCIVNIINVICTUS SUTCIVNIINVICTUS SUTCIVNIINVICTUS SUTCIVNIPRAISE THE SUN
>>51543620The rapist would've been punished if he was a normal man. Atalanta and her partner were tranformed into lions as punishment for having sex in a temple. Normal consensual sex, mind you.If you seduce (what medusa did counts as seducing) and fuck a dude in the temple, the goddess gets mad and punishes you period. In this case since only one of them can get punished, only the """victim""" gets transformed.
>>51543695He's literally Apollo's father. Do you know how much authority this gives him in an ancient context?
>>51543510It's just been the children overthrowing their fathers. Ouranos to Kronus to Zeus, and in this one it looks like Apollo. All of these generations are gods, which humans decidedly are not.
>>51543748Not much, if that one legend about the guy who killed his dad and fucked his mom is anything to go by.>>51543764But really, what makes a god all that special?Usually, it seems to be the ability to mess with the laws of nature, which mortals like us are coming closer to doing everyday.Hell, one of Zeus's most powerful weapons was lightning, and I'd argue that an atomic bomb could whoop lightning's ass.
>>51543722They didn't call him SOL INVICTUS for nothing...I believe we call him Solar Awesome today?
>>51543844We're trying to talk about a Theomachy here. Get your HFY bullshit out of here. And the guy who killed his dad and fucked his mom tore his own eyes out when he realized.
>>51543886Yeah, sad thing is he realized that only after three children.
>>51543886So am I. So what, I'm not allowed to argue the potential of humanity being the next candidate, rather than another god? It could make sense.True, but how much is that because of him killing his father, rather than making 3 kids with his mom?
>>51543956>Thinking that humanity could compete with the Gods>When the Gods' "true forms" are basically walking nuclear explosions
>>51544004That's like saying:>Thinking the gods could compete with the Titans>When just one of the titans is literally the incarnation of time itself
>>51543588Weird, wikipedia says it was Halirrhothius who was Poseidons son.
>>51543844He killed him and fucked her without knowing their identities and even with that excuse he's considered to have commited a big crime, beyond murder.
>>51544029The difference is that the Gods and the Titans are all incarnations of concepts, while humans are just fleshy meat-sacks full of worthless anger in comparison.Motherfucker, this ain't God of War.
>>51543956Theomachy. Theo means god. It breaks down that simply. It's always been the children overthrowing the fathers, and this time is likely gonna be no different.Alright, let's break this down, shall we? When a mortal sees a god's true form, they turn to ash. No Save. Gods are entirely immortal. Can't be killed. Yeah, Nukes are nice and all, but you're basically trashing their stuff. Poseidon alone can bring earthquakes and tsunami's down onto you, fucking up basically anything you have. The very elements themselves are against you in this war. I hope you enjoy eternal winter, because that's what you're getting. Have fun feeding the masses. This is just modern day humanity, as a note, while we're talking about greco-roman era still, who are even more fucked.
>>51543956>>51543844Humans being able to be next candidate goes directly against the theme of the setting, please stop. It's like trying to make the Looney Toons grimdark.
>>51544043Maybe I did misread it. He's a kinda obscure guy.
>>51543844>what makes a god all that special?Unimaginable amounts of sheer power, far more than what any common mortal could conceive of having. That they are fated to live forever. That they will always be happy. Those are the things that characterize the greek gods.
>>51543956The only humans with even the slightest hope of standing up to the Greek gods would be humans with 1/2 divine parentage themselves. Ordinary mundane humans wouldn't stand a chance.
>>51544084>>51543844 Wouldn't atomic explosions fall under the domain of some god or another and therefore wouldn't work against him?
>>51544084>It's always been the children overthrowing the fathersFunny thing - how did humans come to exist, in Greek mythology? I don't remember any myth where one of the gods directly created them. It feels like humans were just always *there*, somehow.
>>51544221Out of all the demigods in greek myth only Heracles has the power to stand against gods, and he achieved apotheosis after death so it doesn't really matter
>>51543844>But really, what makes a god all that special?Indestructible legendary enchantments that become creatures once you have enough devotion to their color combo
>>51544277Helios, maybe? The sun is just a giant nuclear fusion reactor, after all.
>>51544289You don't know much about greek mythology then.Prometheus created men. The first woman, Pandora, was created by Zeus to punish Prometheus and his creations.
>>51544289Prometheus created humans. Epimetheus created beasts and took all the good stuff like fangs and claws, screwing humans over, so Prometheus stole the gods' fire for us and is now suffering eternal punishment for it.
>>51544308It's a really fun idea to think about what nee things would come under which Greek god's domain if we still worshipped them. Would Iris be the goddess of the internet? Is Zeus ok eith us flying through his sky in airplanes? What gods do astronauts pray to for safety?
>>51542234>>51542325>>51542822Greek mythology literally has a prophecy where Athena is going to be the one to be the successor to Zeus, much as Zeus replaced Kronos and Kronos overthrew Ouranos, as >>51542325 said.Zeus tried everything in his power to keep the child of Metis from being born, but when Athena came bursting out of his head as an essentially with a spear screaming bloody murder, Zeus thought "you know what, she isn't that bad" and started grooming her to be his successor. It helps that she was essentially a rule 63 version of Zeus and was a complete daddy's girl with no desire to overthrow her father like Zeus and Kronos did. Athena was always been the favorite of Zeus' children, with only Heracles coming close. The only difference is that the next time power is passed among the Olympians it might not be with a bloody revolt.
>>51544071I've never even played God of War should I, people always talk about it, makes me think it might be a better game than the quicktime events and overdone gore/nudity I've seen in snippets has led me to believe What makes that all to different from how a lot of humans specialize?>>51544084I was arguing future humanity though. As in what humans might potentially be capable of. Who's to say we couldn't figure out how to create earthquakes and tsunamis, and bring winter as well? As we are now though? I could see us annoying the hell out of the gods, and feel like as on whole, humanity is equal to about one of the fuckers right now. As in, were we to wage war on just one of the gods, right now, I feel like victory would be about a 50/50 thing. that's not including the other gods, mind you. So yeah, I was talking about humanity's potential.>>51544091How does it go against it? Hell, quite a bit of greek legend deals with (admittedly usually half god) doing crazy shit on a divine level, some mortals doing it to such an extent they themselves are made gods, or are remembered for literally millennia.>>51544196>Unimaginable amounts of sheer power, far more than what any common mortal could conceive of having.Like being able to fuck with the laws of nature? We can do that to an extent, and find new and better ways to do it every day.>That they are fated to live forever.We come closer to immortality every day>That they will always be happy.lolwut?>>51544221Achilles, while not pure human, was not divine.Whether or not Theseus is a demigod is ambiguous.OdysseusJasonOrpheus>>51544277Chemical weaponry, or biological weaponry.>>51544303what?
>>51542095Previous wars between generations of gods were caused by monstrous tyranny, a "conflict of interests" between dominating and big group of dominated who weren't ok with the status quo.While rape on Artemis would certainly make Apollo hate the guts of Zeus, it wouldnt necessarily make any other Olympian pick the side of the young god. He would simply get smashed.
>>51544402>Chemical weaponry, or biological weaponry.The gods can send plagues too. And they have healing balms that can cure all wounds.Fuck off with this Salvation War bullshit. Humans < Gods. End of discussion.
>>51544459This further supports my theory of humans being the next gen.>>51544379That's actually kind of a difficult thing. Planes are transportation, which falls under Hermes, but the sky is Zeus' domain.
>>51544402>Hell, quite a bit of greek legend deals with (admittedly usually half god) doing crazy shit on a divine level, some mortals doing it to such an extent they themselves are made gods, or are remembered for literally millennia.Individuals, not mankind. And, as you say, half gods backed by gods. If you're backed by the right god you can do whatever, even beat another god 1vs1. If not you're shit.
>>51544402Achilles was bathed in the river Styx, wasn't he?Theseus is TheseusOdysseus is best friends with AthenaJason died via rotten woodOrpheus failed to do what he set out toI enjoy the God of War games if only because it's a huge power trip and the idea of ascending to godlike status through sheer ability rather than favor of other gods is entertaining. If you like hack'n'slash, it might be decent to you.
>>51544335Prometheus eventually got freed. Prometheus did Hercules a favor and in return Hercules killed the eagle and broke his chains. Zeus looked the other way because Hercules was his favorite son and in some tellings Zeus actually arranged for Prometheus being freed in exchange for Prometheus telling him some important information (which was don't stick your dick in Thetis, as any child born by her is destined to become greater than the parent).Zeus was kind of a dick (which we all know). He actually tried to get the gods to hate humanity at first but eventually warmed up to us. When it was to be decided which portions of a butchered animal were to be sacrificed to the gods, Prometheus tried to make the good parts (the meat) look like shit and the bones and fat look delicious because he knew humanity needed something to eat. Zeus saw through it but took the bait anyway because he wanted to make the other gods pissed at humanity.
>>51544402Human technology doesn't fucking matter when fate itself fundamentally puts the gods directly and several miles above humanity. As a mortal you can never, under any conditions, kill a god, takes its place, or anything even near that concept. EVERYTHING about the gods is hopelessly and absolutely superior. Not even the gods can kill other gods. Stop trying to make greek mythology into a HFY power level wank, holy shit.
>>51544379Well Poseidon seemed to be fine with us having boats. Just don't make Zeus angry and your plane will not fall.
>>51542130Remember that time Ares was bested and could have been killed by a mortal man?
>>51543517>to actually back Apollo/Zeus in order to get a better realmIn certain versions of the Myth Hades claimed he would have picked the Underworld had he been given first choice.
>>51542446I really doubt Demeter's going to stand by the guy who sold her Daughter to Hades.And there's no way Hera would pass up on a chance to get a little payback for all his philandering.
>>51544402Orpheus is also ambiguous. Some sources have him as the son of Apollo.Achilles is a weird case. It was prophecized that any child born by Thetis (Achilles' mother) would be greater than their parents. This was weird by Greek myth standards, where each subsequent generation, whether it was gods or humans, was supposed to be weaker than the last. And then on top of that, he was dipped in the Styx.
>>51544494It doesn't since we're not sons of the current ruling generation. We're the creation of a somewhat second tier dude from the deposed generation. Also we're not immortal. Both titans and olympians were divinities even before ruling, since birth.
>>51544501It also helps that most of the Olympians loved Achilles. Along the Iliad it is made clear that no matter who you are, if Zeus wants you to lose, you WILL lose. >>51544601That was because Athena was acting through Diomedes
>>51544490Oh shit, I just remembered - the gods can turn invisible too, and shapeshift to perfectly mimic any human they please.Oh, and they can fly from Mount Olympus to Troy, a distance of about 200 miles/330 kilometres, near-instantly.Humans ain't got shit on that.
>>51544546Well, Diomedes strikes Aphrodite and dismounts Ares. He even says he could have killed him, but being a human it's not his place to do so.He had lots of help from Athena though.
>>51544606Is that true? Every time I read about it, it looks like he got the short end of the stick. Why would he pick the worst realm being the oldest son?
>>51544669It must have been funny being a general in the Trojan war>What the fuck are you doing? Who told you to - oh I was impersonated by a god again, nevermind
>>51542446Poseidon would NOT stand by his brother if enough of the Olympians decided to rebel. Poseidon once convinced the other Olympians to overthrow Zeus and nearly succeeded, if Thetis and one of the Hekatonkheires hadn't gotten involved. Poseidon is like the Starscream of Olympus.
>>51544687That's Athena > Ares. Not humans > gods. Diomedes (and everyone in that war) is just a puppet.Even in the Odyssei, way less centered around the gods, Odysseus relies heavily on divinities.
Alright, people with more knowledge of Greek Myths than me, what's up with all the Titans that don't die but are pretty much never mentioned. Like Hyperion.
>>51544694From what I remember? He liked the solitude.But I'm just working off of memory here, I haven't read anything in-depth about greeky mythology in years.
>>51542268>Rejecting the Dyonisiac>Literally the god who is intended to be the next Zeus when the cycle happensshiggy
>>51544751Titans are not really enemies or bad guys by default. It was Chronos vs Zeus, if you picked your didn't pick the wrong side the Olympians don't have anything against you. You may continue to chill and do your niche unless you're dangerous.
>>51544779But didn't he abduct Persephone because he felt lonely?Also the Sea is a solitary enough place imho.
>>51544490>We have 7 billion people, and the process for making more humans is much easier than the process for making more gods.>>51544500That's the thing though. If an individual could do all of those crazy things, imagine what an organized group could?>>51544501Sure, but he was still a mostly normal human before hand.You gotta point with Theseus.He was also an enemy to Poseidon, which is a bad thing when you're a sailor.Jason was a tragedy.True, but only because of one minor fuck up at the end. ah, nvm then, I'm too good at hack and slashes. Not enough challenge. Remember when I was a kid, we'd take turns, and for the other kids, it was until death, but for me it was timed. >>51544546Stop getting so touchy and stop your stupid projecting.It's not some HFY powerwank, the idea of humans possibly being the next gen is a valid idea.>>51544648Huh, that's pretty interesting, didn't know that about greek myth.>>51544650Yeah, but we're the ones being "dominated/ruled over", which has been the trigger for the take over.>>51544669But can they see why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?But for real though, the fact they have to impersonate humans to influence us says quite a bit about them.
>>51544833Like I said, I'm working off of memory.Also being god of the Underworld made him the god of Wealth and mineral riches, so there is that appeal.
>>51544546But in this thread it was mentioned how Ares killed his own son.I only have a short curiousity for Greek myth. Do the Gods truly die, or do they pop up in Hades domain and have to make a quick stroll.
>>51544751They just exist. The titans were abstractions of natural forces themselves and don't appear in myths as characters very often because of that, the gods are at most anthropomorphic representations.
>>51542208Yeah, Ares wasn't really a god of fighting and glory. He was the god of WAR. He was the god of suffering, destruction and woe. He represented the ugly side of war, of wives made widows, of senseless death, of homes ransacked and lives ruined. His sons were called Fear and Terror, for crying out loud.
>>51544840>If an individual could do all of those crazy things, imagine what an organized group could?You're missing the point by applying modern values. An organized group can't do shit because at some point or other they stop being "the hero". The max you could get is something like the Argonauts who are basically classic greek Justice League/Avengers/X-men not "mankind".
>>51544724>Starscream of olympusPerfect
>>51544906Ah, so we're talking about the rule of cool now?Well I raise you a charismatic man in power armor.
>>51544840Olympian/greek Gods actually operate in an entirely different, eternally separate order from mortals. That's the idea. Its not a surpassable boundary via technological advance. These people believed in noumina, shit's just separate, influential and infinite without being beholden to anything we know about or can do.
>>51544906Also, in most Greek myth, groups of humans tend to be really shitty. Example, the Odyssey: "Hey, Odysseus just got this cool bag of shit he told us not to open from a god, let's fuck with it"
>>51544939There's a certain anount of narrative law in Greek myth, but there are also just some general rules. Gods > Man is probably the biggest of those rules. A man or humans in general killing a God wouldn't just be outrageous, it would be fundamentally impossible by the rules of the world. It would be like a player saying he stabs the GM in character.
>>51541954Nope. This was set up in the metis myth mentioned here. >>51542325In the version I heard, it was specifically mentioned that Athena had a male twin, but Zeus prevented him from being born by eating Metis. But even a foetus-god could cause some trouble if he's prophesized to be more mighty than Zeus.
>>51544840>but we're the ones being "dominated/ruled over", which has been the trigger for the take overNo it wasn't. The trigger was stustbeingff like being fucking devoured (or almost devoured in Zeus case). Olympians before Zeus reign and titans before Chronos reign were nothing comparable to humans during Zeus reign.
>>51544898I always found the Ares/Mars dichotomy fascinating.Ares is, for all intents and purposes, a Barbarian among "civilized" people. He's loud, annoying, and wants to smash things, and represents the very worst aspects of WarBut Mars, in theory the same person, is a much more disciplined individual. A Soldier through and through.
>>51544939>I'm not trying to argue about HFY!>Starts whining about 40k shitYeah, just fuck off. Get the fuck out of this thread, no one wants you here. Also, you don't get power armor. Humanity isn't advanced in this stuff. You're that fucking faggot that tries to 'invent' guns in every setting. Piss. Off.
>>51544840>We have 7 billion people, and the process for making more humans is much easier than the process for making more gods.And the gods can kill 7 billion people a lot faster than 7 billion people can kill the gods.
>>51544876Dyonisus also died, but he got better.
>>51544840If Zeus wants a squirrel to win a fight against a tiger really hard the squirrel will win with absolutely no doubt about it. It's recurring said in the Iliad that Zeus can take or give glory to mortals according to his whim. Any god carrying the aegis can make any mortal shit himself in terror for as long as he wants.
>>51544840They didn't really need to impersonate anyone unless they wanted to do it without either warning the other gods or spooking people.I mean, if a god who you know is on the enemy's side appears to you and tells you to do this thing instead of the other, you're going to do the other simply because you know they're on the other side.
>>51544982There's a running joke in my campaign.You can, at any moment, challenge the GM in game if you want. However, he will have infinite AC, infinite+ to hit, infinite hit points, and does 99 damage each time he hits.
>>51545019TBF to the autist, 40k isn't the only setting with power armor.Hell my first thought when he said it was 'tony stark'
>>51544840>But for real though, the fact they have to impersonate humans to influence us says quite a bit about them.>Have to>Implying its not for shits and giggles simply because they canYou continue to embarrass yourself, proving you know nothing of this.
What about Hercules/Herakles? It's got that next gen vibe going, like from titan to god to demigod, but still keeps it in the realm of possibility that Hercules could be successful. Maybe all the half-gods get together and rebel against their parents.
>>51545057I thought of Halo actually.
>>51544840>But for real though, the fact they have to impersonate humans to influence us says quite a bit about them.They don't have to do that. They can stick ideas straight into people's minds and make them believe it was their own original thoughts.The Greek gods are hax-tier.
>>51545017That's because the "Romans copied greek Gods" meme is just this, a literal meme. Mars isn't Ares, they just come from the same indoeuropean deity. It's just more obvious than with germanics or celts because we're talking about two cultures that had more contact.Romans did take some greek gods, but they mostly did just mix them in the same way greeks mixed Ahura Mazda and Zeus in the east.
>>51545086Heracles turned into a god when he died. And the reason for the success of demigods is not only or even mostly their own virtues, they usually have at least their divine parent watching over them during all their life
>>51545090>Anyone with Power Armor in Halo>Charismatic
>>51545126meh, it was just a thought, but didn't gaia help zeus against cronus? i mean, maybe they could get some divine patronage from hephaestus or something.
>>51545086He becomes a god at the end, becoming "part of the system".
>>51545140The chief is a cool dude who doesn't afraid of anything.
>>51541954Apollo seems like the most Greek option, but I want to put in a good word for Athena, since she was born from Zeus attempting to avert the prophecy of his downfall (Much as Cronos ate his children to avert HIS prophecy, and look how that worked out)
>>51545230He almost never talks except to an AI in his suit, he might be cool, but he isn't Charismatic.
>>51545019My entire argument has been about humanity's potential, not it's current state.and power armor =/= WH40k, your argument a shit.>>51545002Yes it has.Ouranus fucked over Chronos, who fucked over Zeus, who is currently fucking over humanity (Probably literally fucking, the dirty bastard.)>>51545021Maybe so, maybe not.Keep in mind that a lot of greek writing was back in the days when the best material known to man was brass, when the fastest mode of transportation was an exceptionally fast boat, and when the moon was just some distant thing in the sky, not something you could land on and walk all over.>>51545027Who's to say demigods wouldn't be on our side? Or even some of the gods themselves?Prometheus almost certainly would be.>>51545031Or maybe you wouldn't, since if they really were all powerful they'd fuck your shit up.>>51545078Wouldn't it be funnier then, especially if you didn't like one of the gods, to just fucking ruin it all by annihilating all of the humans on one side of a conflict?>>51545097That'd be the muses, friend.
>>51545177That's because the one thing more powerful than the gods is fate. Much like mortals in the trojan war were helpless divine playthings, the gods and titans are completely powerless against fate. Gaia was just a pawn for a prophecy to be fulfilled and history to take its course.
>>51545256>That'd be the muses, friend.Nope. The gods repeatedly stick "brilliant ideas" into the heads of human characters all throughout the Iliad, and inspire them to take action.>Keep in mind that a lot of greek writing was back in the days when the best material known to man was brass, when the fastest mode of transportation was an exceptionally fast boat, and when the moon was just some distant thing in the sky, not something you could land on and walk all over.And that's the world we're discussing, not your special snowflake modernism wank-fantasy.
Guys, if Athena was to overtake the throne, he would'be done so already. Greeks didn't insert prophecies into their myths just to leave them hanging around unfulfilled. It's obvious that Zeus didn't interpret the prophecy well, like everyone every fucking time there's a prophecy. I would need to read the text but I'm sure there's something that explains it like Athena not being a son and therefore not counting or her being technically born out of Zeus' head and not Metis.
>>51545256>what if the setting theme was man?>its not >but what if I want it to beeeeeee >pls stop
>>51545256>Ouranus fucked over Chronos, who fucked over Zeus, who is currently fucking over humanityWho is that guy called Humanity? Because the other three are fucking immortal individuals.
>>51545256>Keep in mind that a lot of greek writing was back in the days when the best material known to man was brass, when the fastest mode of transportation was an exceptionally fast boat, and when the moon was just some distant thing in the sky, not something you could land on and walk all over.Are you literally retarded? The Greek Gods are literally immortal, can create tsunamis and plagues, they can literally take a stroll in a military base in their true form and turn everyone who happens to glance in the general direction to ash, they can overthrow the entire chain of command with ease. They can take any form, make your wife want to fuck a bull then make that bear a child, and they have fate itself on their side, which you literally cannot overcome. Period. End of statement.And that's not even getting into the effects fighting them would have on Morale. Also, we can't land on the moon in a setting where the Greek Gods are a thing, because the moon is a fucking chariot.And they're still immortal.
>>51545448>Athena not being a son and therefore not countingI studied mythology pretty heavily in college and this is one of the most common interpretations. Probably the most common. Your other guess is also up there.
So, there's one shitfuck that keeps trying to derail the thread, no one else wants him around.I urge everyone to report and ignore. Don't let him derail, don't give him attention.
>>51545498That's the impression I had myself. But I wanted to be sure since an increasing number of people were going with the "the overtaker is Athena" thing and my knowledge doesn't come from heavy study at all.It fits more with both greek culture and the themes Athena is built around.
>>51545516He's not really trying to shitpost, he's just wrong. Which means there's nothing to report.
>>51545426Then why don't you go discuss that then?Because my entire argument so far has been about what humans with hyper advanced tech might be bale to do, and whether humans are destined to one day take over.I've even admitted that bronze age humanity would never stand a chance.Have you even been reading what I've been typing, or do you you just wipe your asshole across the keyboard and shit all over intelligent discussion?>>51545479I've actually been willing to put this argument to rest quite a few times, but then some dumb fuck comes along and says something that's obviously bait, and even though I know it's probably bait, there's that 10% that says "Maybe it's not">>51545487Fine:Sentient being fucked over sentient being fucked over sentient being over and over on and on.>>51545496Future humanity could easily be capable of all those things, and even maybe more.>>51545516I'm guessing I'm the shitfuck?So, what, I disagree with you and that makes me inherently bad?You guys keep pulling out the word "autistic" but that is some autistic shit right there.
So, anyway, back to the topic at hand, I think that whoever was trying to take over would go to Hades for support first. Guy has everything that everyone wants to stay shut-in under his heel.
>>51545631What part of "Fate is on their side" do you not understand? No. They can't. It's that simple. It's a hard no, not a "No, but", or a "No, but maybe". It's a "No".
>>51545631>Because my entire argument so far has been about what humans with hyper advanced tech might be bale to do, and whether humans are destined to one day take over.They can't. If you're trying to ball with the actual Greek Gods, humanity is never going to win. Regardless of how nice their technology is. Which, realistically, it couldn't be because all of science and shit works differently in myths. As mentioned, you can't have a moon base, because the moon isn't a place. You can't collect solar power, because the sun is just a dude. Fate says fuck you to any attempt of humanity to kill or best a god. That's just the way the setting works. Any contrivance in attempt to surmount these facts is literally impossible.
>>51545631>Sentient being fucked over sentient being fucked over sentient being over and over on and on.Humanity is not a sentient being.
>>51545667He has tons of wealth and the legions of the dead at his side. He could also hypothetically drive things into a cold war by threatening to let something in Tatarus out, if shit's going bad.
>>51545631Again: All the gods need to do is to flash the aegis a little and the whole of mankind instantaneously loses its willingness to fight. And on a fundamental level, fate doesn't allow for mortals to kill gods. The destiny of a god is inherently different to that of any mortal.
>>51545256>best known material was brass>brassYou are a special sort of stupid.
>>51545667He certainly needs Hades in the long term. If the rebels win, Zeus is going into the Tartarus after all.But I think he would try to convince Poseidon first since it's way more easy and you can't hardly convince Hades if your rebellion doesn't look viable.Hades would be the first guy on the mind of the rebel, but one of the last he approaches.
>>51541954So many people in this thread have Athena's origins and the prophecy of Metis completely fucking wrong.Metis was the Titan of wisdom who made the potion that causes Cronus to throw up all of Zeus's siblings. Zeus listed after her once he took power, but later learned of a prophecy that Metis would bear two children.The SECOND child would be greater than even Zeus in power, and would overthrow him just as Zeus had overthrown Cronus.So, Zeus tricked Metis into transforming into a fly and swallowed her, the same crime he had overthrown his father for. Because the Greek gods were bastards undeserving of their power who never learned from any of their actions, EVER.However, Metis was already pregnant by the time Zeus swallowed her, and as a fly she made arms and armor for her daughter. This clamoring caused Zeus a headache, and when Hephaestus cleaved Zeus's skull open to relieve the headache, Athena burst forth completely grown and garbed in her mother's vestments.But what about the second child? Well, Greek mythology never got that far, given that Metis was a Titan and the prophecy made by another Titan, the symmetry between Zeus and his own father, and the general inevitability of divine prophecies in Greek myth, it would stand to reason that eventually Metis would get out and have her son that would overthrow Zeus.Note that the prophecy doesn't state anything about WHO the father of Metis's second child will be, only that he will be more powerful than Zeus and overthrow him.I've always wanted to see a story where Metis ends up escaping (she's the titan of cunning and wisdom and made the potion that caused cronus to throw up the gods, its moronic for her to not eventually get out) and, unbeknownst to Zeus, has her second child with either amother titan, a god, or even a particularly powerful mortal like Diomedes ( favored of Athena, for bonus symmetry), who goes on to wage a second war in the heavens
>>51545700Neither is a Titans or a Gods.>>51545692Isn't it established that humans can use magic?Who's to say Greek mythos humans wouldn't unite magic and tech?>>51545739What if the fates decide differently?After all, they've let others win when they shouldn't have.>>51545746Nigga we talking about trojan war era greece, which was Bronze Age.
>>51545721Actually, maybe those against Zeus may try to free some of the prisoners of the Tartarus in hopes of getting strong support. Probably not Apollo, but I can see Poseidon or Ares doing that.It's a good way to put Hades directly and actively on Zeus side though.
>>51545831Yeah, and Bronze was better than Brass you silly sally.
>>51545721>Gigantic civil war breaks out, Nu-Gods vs. Old Gods starts up>Zeus expects Hades to help because brothers>Apollo expects help because Persephone is one of them and has Hades whipped>The power couple btfo's all of them with the threat of just opening up the underworld
>>51545831>Who's to say Greek mythos humans wouldn't unite magic and tech?They can. It wouldn't help them, but they can.>What if the fates decide differently?The Fates don't change. They already decided this.
>>51545811Honestly, I feel like Diomedes goes too hard to be the father. Like, if it's supposed to be at all a good thing that this overthrow is happening you don't want the daddy to be the most terrifying son of a bitch in the entire Greek myth cycle. Also, the child would be half god not full god then. I dunno who the dad would be though. I'm just saying Diomedes would be a weird choice.
>>51544982Yeah except for the part where Diomedes fucking rekt both Ares and Aphrodite in the same day.Heroes in Greek mythology who had fate on their side could get away with literally whatever the fuck they wanted to. Even the gods are bound by destiny.
>>51545591No, he's moved solidly into shitposting at this point.
>>51545900As has been mentioned at least twice in this thread, that was more to do with Athena basically possessing him. And even then, the fates stop him from actually killing Ares because mortals can't kill gods. Not won't, but really just can't.
>>51545831>Neither is a Titans or a Gods.Good thing it never was titans replace gods, but Zeus replaces his father. Are you Zeus son? Can someone be Zeu's son and be considered a representative of mankind?
>>51545859Also, iron, specifically meteroic iron, was used by several cultures. Additionally, the Hittites were working with iron as far back as 18th century BC. As a reference, the Trojan war is thought to occurred approximately 1200 BC.
>>51545831Guys I know God is omnipotent but what if the Devil became even more omnipotent and won?This makes as much sense to christianity as your arguments do for greek myth
>>51545940Yeah, but before steel bronze was better than iron. Iron only took off when it became way cheaper.
>>51545667They'd do that if they were reasonable, but greek gods are ridiculous cunts and tremendous idiots.They should, by all means, clamour for Hades' and Hephaestos' support, but I guarantee that they'd piss both of them off. As a matter of fact, whatever happens, Poseidon would definitely stab Zeus in the back because he always felt like he got the short straw, the egotistical retard, at least until he gets his ass handed enough to try and ally with his brother again.Infighting and hubris would topple the Olympians quicker than anything, so if the younger generations smartens up and tries to give Hephaestos and Hades some respect and a better deal, that's a huge advantage right there.The biggest question, though, is: On which side are the Hecatoncheires fighting? Because those guys can and will fuck every god coming their way three ways till sunday.
>>51545896I mean if the second child is prophesied to be the strongest entity that's ever existed it would make sense for the father to be a powerful individual.No matter what the child will be half-titan. I like Diomedes because he's a favored champion of Metis's firstborn, has a track record of beating the shit out of Gods who get in his way, and is fairly well known so when writing a story people wouldn't go "wait who" as much.I don't think theres any other half-human half-titan offspring in Greek mythology either, which further explains how this new being can be mightier than even Zeus since nobody knows what the fuck they're capable of. Might also explain why Zeus shits on mortals so much if he knows the potential threat they can pose if Metis is ever freed.
>>51545859What?Oh, fuck.I always get bronze and brass mixed up.they're both copper alloys that start with BRforgive me>>51545877How would we know?Ok, but as humans change, would that change the fates of the humans?>>51545927Well, I mean, a demigod would be close enough to human for a decent chunk of humanity.And for that matter, we might have a few other demigods/full on gods on our side helping us.
>>51546004>Ok, but as humans change, would that change the fates of the humans?No.
>>51545995>half-human half-titanOh shit you're right. I never took that in. Also, I briefly got Diomedes confused with the guy who went battle crazy and ate his opponents brain, so Diomedes would totally work actually. Would this son have some of the remaining Titans on his side do you think?
>>51546004Humans are not part of the cycle. They're a side project. They're cousins or pets to immortals, not part of the immortal family tree proper.
>>51545983According to Hesiod, the Hecatoncheires just kinda guard Tartarus, so I guess that means they basically just do their own thing with slight sway from Hades, maybe.
>>51546087They probably just stand around chucking rocks at each other like a bunch of dipshits.
>>51545983Considering that Zeus rescued them from the Tartarus, the hecatoncheires would be most certainly on his side. The new gen could try to free other creatures just like Zeus did with the Hecatoncheires tho.
>>51546032>No.No.>>51546061Yeah, but we're more dominated/fucked around with by those in power than any of the actual gods.I mean First Ouranus hated the next gen so much he locked them up inside of their own mom, until one came out and chopped his nuts off. That one was Chronos, who would grow up to eat the next gen, until one of them was saved, grew up, and cut open his gut, freeing his siblings, then trapped all the bad ones of the last gen, and left the rest alone. We may not have directly come from Zeus, but somebody told Prometheus to make us, and if Zeus was in charge...
>>51545995>>51545811I don't know guys, even if it's not stated anywhere that the usurper MUST be Zeus' son it's always been that way. Also, considering the trickster nature of Metis, the best vengeance would be for her to trick Zeus into fucking her and giving her a second child.I mean, the Diomedes thing could be cool and all and it's more original, maybe, but it doesn't rhyme that well.
>>51546039Depends, I guess. Metis is the reason Zeus was able to overthrow Cronus in the first place by making the potion that vomited the gods out. I can't imagine many Titan-loyalists would want to work with her and her son. Especially since the titans wouldn't get power back, but whatever new man-titan hybrid resulted.Prometheus, who favored mankind and was punished by Zeus, would be ecstatic to be freed of his torment and help a half-human take power. It'd be a vindication of his beliefs and an end to an eternity of suffering.Gaia initially proclaimed the prophecy in the first place. I'm not sure what else she'd contribute, but her main role in the Theomachy is long completed.Atlas? Maybe. Holding up the sky was always a punishment rather than a practical exercise, the new "more powerful than even zeus" second child could presumably negotiate freedom from his burden in exchange for support in overthrowing Zeus.The hundred handed ones and Cyclopses both pledged service to Zeus in the Titanomachy and would almost assuredly fight against the second child. Freeing Cronus poses way more problems than it could possibly solve, so I'd definitely leave him out.Between Gaia, Atlas, and Prometheus as well as the secondborn's own abilities and the counsel of the Titan of cunning and wisdom, you've got a sizable force. Given that god-blessed humans have been capable of wounding gods in the past such as during the Trojan War, a mortal army empowered by the secondborn and his Titan generals would be a huge fucking problem for Olympus.Of course, if you go to war with Olympus, all the demigods and god-aligned heroes will undoubtedly come to its aid. So you'd have demi-titans battling demigods and heroes like Heracles.Hades might be the crucial element to a Secondborn's victory. He's always chafed at the arrangement he's in, and is a stickler for rules. He might see Zeus' attempts to cheat prophecy and retain power as an affront, and side with the successor
>>51546324Okay, this is kinda fucked up but bear with me, she gets pregnant with Zeus kid while still inside of him. Then Zeus ends up giving birth to him through his dick somehow.
>>51546253>but somebody told Prometheus to make usAnd if someone told him, it was not fucking Zeus whose first thought was to break Prometheus' toys, that's for sure.
>>51546353>fucked up>In a mythos where gods pretending to be bulls so they can fuck women who later give birth to horrific bull man hybrids is a standard thing.
>>51546353I can't say it doesn't fit the lore.
>>51546253>NoGlad we're agreed! Humans can't win.
>>51546353Sounds about right.You've even got a good emasculation angle there, which would fit quite neatly into ancient Greek sensibilities. What better way to humiliate the playboy philanderer god than to make give birth like a woman?
>>51546350I kind of like the idea of freeing Cronus as the last spiteful act of a defeated Zeus. He'd have to go through the gate Poseidon put up, but as a 'you think I was bad? Here, have the all consuming destroyer you ungrateful bastards!'
>>51546374http://prometheas.org/mythology.html>They were given the task of creating manMight be another one f those "Different interpretations deal.>>51546448>Glad we're agreed! Humans can't win.No.
>>51546464It also kinda echoes Uranus getting his dick cut off but then Aphrodite coming out.So what's this new Usurper's name?
>>51546534If there's any hope for humans, it's in this anon's proposal:>>51546350>Given that god-blessed humans have been capable of wounding gods in the past such as during the Trojan War, a mortal army empowered by the secondborn and his Titan generals would be a huge fucking problem for Olympus.
>>51545496>literally immortalI mean, yes and no? The Olympians are such that the folks of ancient Greece could not conceive of mortal power getting the better of them, but the efforts of various divine beings to off one another seem to indicate that they're capable of dying. They do wield (literally) earth-shaping powers, but as far as those who wrote on them are concerned, some of our powers are godlike -- Electricity, lasers, and nukes are fairly equivalent to what the gods wield in their own battles.It's a big if, but if we want a tale of such a clash not impossible that we as we are now might put down an olympian with our best and brightest weapons, which makes the whole thing a game of rocket tag.
>>51546557The fact that the second child who usurps Zeus doesn't have a canon name really annoys me.They had centuries to think of one or even an official title, but the fact that the leader of their entire fucking pantheon is destimed to fall and be replaced is surprisingly low on their list of things to talk about.Some word or phrase meaning "son of metis" or "son of cunning" but in ancient Greek would be my vote.Tyrannos is greek for Tyrant, Sfeteristis is Usurper. Having -tis in his name like his mother is nice, although Sfety's gonna want a nickname for people to not trip over pronunciation
>>51546557Since he needs to be a new God, he needs a new domain. I suggest this >>5154427
>>51546651If divines can kill divines, why is Chronos in Tartarus and not dead?
>>51546651Stop trying to turn this into the fucking Salvation War. You cannot nuke Zeus you autistic fuckwit.
>>51546695Meant the nuclear explosions thing. Call him Exterminatus or something.
>>51542882Ares is the oath-God of Athens. He's the one they swear to. Bind him to the land, and he is your protector and stalwart defender, and even gives good harvests (farming etc.).He's also the god of Justice, more specifically delivering it, along with the Erinyes. Others might make the decision while standing in judgement, but Ares is the one who carries out the sentence, and he's the one Zeus uses to grant great glory to heroes. Other gods all just walk beside them and help, but Ares enters directly into the hero to provide them fuel and great might.Also Alcippe. Asshole Poseidon-kid raped his daughter, so he murdered the shit out of him.
>>51544301Herakles at Delphi is some funny shit. He gets a prophesy he doesn't like, and decided fuck it, he'll go make his own prophesy and takes the tripod chair of the oracle. Then Apollo comes down to take it back, and Herakles arm wrestles him for three days before Zeus comes down to salve Apollo's ego by breaking up the fight and Herakles gets his good prophesy.
>>51544501River Styx for Achilles is a very late, Roman era addition to the myth by Ovid.In the Iliad he's just that badass.
>>51544724Worth noting that in the Iliad, Zeus flat out says, and the gods agree, that he is as far above them as they are above mortals, if they attached a chain to him and all dragged on it to pull him off Olympus, he would just pull all them up instead.Zeus >>> all the other Olympian gods put together. The only time he was near-bested was via trickery.
>>51547351It could be a simple case of "Oh god, he won't fucking shut up about this shit, let's just agree so he'll go away.", to be 100% fair.
>>51545900>wrecking AphroditeNot hard to do, she's canonically shit tier at fighting, plenty of mortal or demigod heroes can beat her ass in a fight.I'd definitely wreck her though, if you know what I mean.
>>51547351It's funny: I interpreted that as a boast, that no-one present was willing to call Zeus out on. I imagined that Zeus says stuff like that a lot, and everyone else just bites their tongues because they don't know if anyone else would back them up if they spoke out.
>>51547379>>51547578I think so too. Especially because Hubris is often a topic in greek mythology.
>>51547444What do you mean?
This is a really cool idea for a setting.Would Typhon be the Super Weapon McGuffin?
>>51547351wasn't he almost killed in single combat by the lava eyes horse dragon?
>>51541954>What do you think about Apollo as a candidate?It's already been prophesied that only Metis would bear Zeus a son that could overthrow him, hence why he swallowed her. Thankfully for him, she only ended up bearing a daughter, Athena, that came out of his skull.So, if you want to overthrow Zeus, you'll need to remove Metis from his head, have Zeus lie with her, and then hide both her and her eventual child from Zeus, hoping for a son, long enough for him to mature into an adult.Good luck.
>>51549284May be, but you're basically giving a massive "i'm the bad guy" mark to whoever threats to use Typhon.
I've often thought about an "alternate history," Trojan War whereby the Trojans win and launch a counter-invasion of the now-crippled Greek kingdoms as the scattered survivors of the expedition try desperately to return home to defend their lands. A divine usurpation of Zeus by Apollo would be a great spark for that since he was the patron god of Troy and it was only the three slighted goddesses and Zeus enabling them for his own ends that led to Troy being defeated.Hera and Athena in exile, desperately hoping to find Achilles and get him back onto his proper destiny of dying to win the war rather than living out his days quietly while Apollo and Aphrodite push Prince Hector's crusade forward to secure their new era of love and fire could make for an epic fucking story.
>>51549659Wait, so where does this put Pious Aeneas?
>>51550024Hunting down Odysseus in a deadly game of naval cat and mouse, trying to ensure the greatest mind of Greece cannot come to her aid until it is already conquered.
>>51549659>achilles decides war sucks and abandons the greeks >hector gets to see his son again>sarpedon and glaucus happy together into it
>>51550141So, with the aid of seers and archers of Apollo, he basically chases down Odysseus and his weakened party of dysfunctional Greeks (if the odyssey is anything to go by, he wouldn't be able to really survive well + as a son of Aphrodite, Aeneas' crew would be incredibly loyal.)Imagine the elevated status of Aeneas in the world if Aphrodite and Apollo's plan actually went through.
OP, you should read Brian Azzarello's Wonder Woman run. It's pretty much exactlly what you're working with, you might get some very useful ideas off it.
>>51550986Well, keep in mind that a big reason Odysseus had so much trouble in the Odyssey was because Poseidon was pissed at him. In the Illiad, Poseidon was mostly on the Greek's side and only helped the Trojans for the sake of keeping the destiny of certain individuals on track.Considering that the proper destiny is the Greek's winning and he was on their side mostly anyway, Poseidon's aid could be crucial in keeping the surviving Greek's alive as they try to get home before it's too late. The question is how long and how much can Odysseus swallow his pride relying on the aid of a God before he does something stupid, and how much can the god of the sea get away with subverting Apollo's will as the new King before he put himself in danger of facing the same fate as his brother.Another potentially interesting wrinkle for this: Thetis, Achilles mother. While some texts refer to her as merely a sea nymph, others refer to her as a fully realized sea-goddess, and the Illiad mentions an episode from the early days of Zeus' reign where she upheld and thereby legitimized his new order by standing with him against three other gods who rebelled against him. She's a direct descendant of Nerius, who was a divinty with dominion over the sea and was sired by two of the Primordials. Oceanus is the on-record Titan Of The Sea who ruled that aspect of the world under Cronus, so one can only speculate as to why Nerius was on the back burner, so to speak. Basically, all this adds up to the possibility that Achilles' mom may have a LOT more power than it seems/the average Watery Nymph can call upon, and if Poseidon is working to bring back a destiny that will result in her son's death, she might unleash it.
>>51551418So the sea would have two major players basically wanting to sink Troy and the gods who back it, or if we're going with the whole "fate be damned I'm the starscream of olympus" Poseidon, we'd have two major sea gods fighting.Odysseus obviously wouldn't die because he's fated to go save his wife from a bunch of assholes. Problem: Aeneas is a hyper-focused soldier and fated to go to Italy to set up the beginnings of what would eventually be Rome.So, we have two unkillables just playing cat and mouse while either two sea gods try to destroy the other gods, or each other.
>>51551418Reading the Aeneid rn, Troy is referred to as "Neptune's Troy" multiple times, and the only guy that questioned the Trojan Horse (and was subsequently killed by a couple giant snake-dragon fuckers sent by Athena/Minerva) was one of his priests.
>>51551943The Aeneid is mythological fan fiction.
>>51552134Is that to imply that every other poet before Virgil wasn't doing the exact same thing?
>>51552134>Mythological fan fiction>Fiction>MythologicalAnon I...
>>51552216This is true, but he's seperated from them by a couple hundred years so it's slightly less legit in my opinion.
>>51552469He was also a very pious, very religious man. Dude was obsessed with the gods and making sure that everyone was a "good roman," which is basically just acting like Aeneas or Hector.Even if he was from a few hundred years later, dude studied up as much as someone at that time could.
As /tg/ is the only board where one can have good historical, archeological and mythological discussions, does any of you anons checked out this guy's hypothesis about a luwian civilization?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DNyA90f_awhttp://luwianstudies.org/Because I got say it's the first time I've seen believable historical revisionism in the internet. It seems to warrant further research and digging.Some other interesting links:http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Age-of-Bronzehttp://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/
>>51551562The question of mortal destiny in a battle between two sea gods is interesting. You have Achilles with two destinys, peace and death. One, Thetis is fighting for, the other Poseidon is attempting to bring back about, either intentionally or simply as a consequence of his support of the Greeks.Then you have Odysseus. He is destined to return home in time to save his wife, but now its critical that he return home in a much smaller window if he is also to save Greece. Thetis isn't trying to deny his destiny, only delay it for the sake of her son, which could prove to be a bone of contention among many gods who might interpret Odysseus' fate in different ways.Lastly, you have Aneus. By becoming the hunter of Odysseus, attempting to prevent his return to Greece and thus secure Trojan victory, he is subverting his own fate. After all, if his mother Aphrodite is ascendant and his people have taken all the Agean, what could drive him to seek Italy and be the progenitor of the Roman Empire? Thetis surely doesn't much care for Aneus' lost destiny if it means Achilles is safe, but what of the other gods? Particularly, what of Aphrodite? She helped Apollo engineer this coup and alter Troy's fate, and has gained much from it. If Hera and Athena are in exile, she is the de facto Queen of the Gods, she has satisfied the question of the Golden Apple for all time and confirmed herself as The Fairest, and has assured that love triumphed in the Trojan War by seeing Helen and Paris victorious and together with those who sought to undo her work between them broken and scattered if not dead. But at what cost if it means undoing the glorious future of her beloved son and all he would sire, regardless of what other glories she might heap on him from her new position? An interesting parallel forms between Thetis and Aphrodite and their children, don't you think?Yes, ripe potential for drama indeed.
>>51552615I was reading about Luwian stuff when reading about root language links for a creative project. This is pretty neat.
>>51550986What I want to know is what the hell happens to Diomedes?! Also Ajax should have survived since he didn't have to kill himself for acting dishonorably over Achilles' armor! Yay!
>>51552615This seems less like revision and more like addition to me.
>>51554765Diomedes fucks Athena and makes a half-mortal half god probably.
>>51552615I remember watching him and reading his stuff not long ago.It's interesting and I borrowed some of his stuff for worldbuilding, but as far a historical veracity goes, I'm really not that sure.From what I read (in sources other than luwianstudies), to me it seems like calling the Luwians a concrete civilization is akin to calling the Semites a civilization, as in, it's more of a bunch of nations with a common language family rather than a single nation.
>>51541954>Zeus lay with Metis but immediately feared the consequences. It had been prophesied that Metis would bear extremely powerful children: the first, Athena and the second, a son more powerful than Zeus himself, who would eventually overthrow Zeus.Nobody escapes fate. Not even Zeus.My bets are on "unlikely series of coincidences causes Zeus to crack his head open on the pavement, and his second child by Metis pops out"
>>51554839I thought he said in the video that they were a bunch of independent city states and lesser kingdoms that united just to wipe out the Hittites and then were themselves broken as a unified political by the Greeks in the historic Trojan War following that very example before they dominated the region.
>>51554932Couple of problems with that, it is generally agreed that the Trojan War and the Hittite downfall are roughly contemporary (12th to 11th centuries BC). This is also contemporary with the Assyrian expansion, which pushed both the Hittites and the Egyptians pretty hard, and likely contributed to the Hittite collapse. Additionally there's the fact that Hittites widely spoke Luwian and even wrote religious texts in Luwian, so the Luwians are not really distinct from the Hittites.Dr. Zangger does get a lot of things right about the Luwians, I think he jumped to the wrong conclusions in the end and he put too much importance on the small west Anatolian kingdoms, and at the risk of appealing to authority, that seems to be the general sentiment about his work. If I had more time I'd dig into my notes and go into more detail, but it's 3 am here.The Greeks also dominated nobody after the Trojan War, since the Greek Dark Ages start immediately after the accepted dates for the Trojan War (maybe there's some cause-and-effect here or maybe just coincidence, nobody knows for sure).Basically, the Bronze Age Collapse was a shitshow for everyone involved. The crux of the matter is "Were the Luwians the Sea Peoples" and I'm not really sure there's enough evidence for that.Although I have to say that this concept of "World War Zero" is very appealing, and I'm basing parts of the campaign I'm running on it.
>>51554932A bit on an addendum >>51555089I just skimmed through Dr. Zangger's more recent stuff, and also taking into account that youtube comment he left (if it is indeed him), then it seems like he's begun pulling back on his more outrageous claims, if even a little.His sources and the conclusions he draws from them are still dubious, though.
>>51552413Next you're going to tell us that Lancelot is canon and not some french fuck's self insert mary sue donut steel
>>51555648Is he not?
bumping a good thread that still has like 60 posts left
>>51560900I do wonder what could be done with other mythologies. Roman isn't strictly the same as Greek, and Hindu would be interesting. Norse mythology would be interesting.Not necessarily end times, but certainly paradigm shifts
>>51555089>Were the Luwians the Sea PeoplesI thought they were Nurag? Nuragic? Is there cross over with Luwian? I'm new at this.
>Theomachy>Olympians>Ancient Trojans and RomansThis is the best thread on /tg/ right now
This would work well as a setting.Other than eternal winter what other enviromental effects would there be on Greece?
>>51544999I think it's Zeus that says "Even I cannot change that which is written" in relation to him being subservient to the fates. Athena is a candidate, but I always figured that Hera or someone would get Zeus drunk and have him puke up his unborn heir or the like, and then said someone would raise him to kill Zeus. Presumably Zeus would be in a drunken stupor and not remember.
>>51562234Well then the baby would be the McGuffin for Apollo's side, secreted away by Hera, with Typhon as a Nuclear Option.
What's the reason for the gods not really being so active after the trojan war?
>>51562630I am not sure there is an 'official' answer.Some would say its because of how much a fuckup their direct involvement kept being.
>>51562630The Trojan War led to the near-extinction of Demigods, didn't it? Maybe they lost interest in the moral realm because their progeny were in their twilight.
>>51542268One of Apollo's lovers commited suicide to get away from him. Try to imagine for a moment how Apollo must be to the people he doesn't care much about, if his lover was driven to suicide by him.
>>51542446Wasn't it Hades who came in Zeus aid when Poseidon and Apollo tried to overthrow him*?*Zeus punished them by making they build the walls of Troy IIRC
>>51542446Don't forget the Hecatoncheires, they would stand by Zeus.And altrought not gods they are children of Gaea and brothers to the titans themselves
>>51565439Forget, I was mixing it with another thing. SorryStill, Hades helped Hermes to recover Zeus' sinews after his fight with Typhoon
>>51544694There's some evidence that Hades might be a pre-Greek earth/fertility deity that was absorbed in the Theoi, so I guess it makes sense
>>51544833If you take Ovid in consideration, Hades took Persephone because Aphrodite made him do it. She saw that Aphrodite reached age to marry and that Hades was single, so she paid him a visit and whispered a few words to him, making him fall in love.
>>51565546Typhon was gonna fuck them all up if they didn't help though, right?
>>51565957The gods had abandoned Greece and hidden as well as they could IIRC.Only Zeus was still fighting.Dunno if Typhon would go after them.Also, Hades was pretty nice with Herakles when Herk went to the underworld.
So as a setting name, how's Olympus Divided?
>>51561274Not him but Sea Peoples were not a single people and had different origins. This is something that lots of sea peoples pseudo-fans forget.
>>51541954That's cool, but Apollo can't win.Fate has already decided that Metis' child (not Athena, we don't know the name of this one) will be the one to surpass Zeus.
>>51563571>>51562630The Cypria, part of the Trojan Cycle, has a brief note in it (probably originally a larger/longer scene) that Zeus explicitly planned to bring about the Trojan War in order to kill off most of the demigods because they were weighing down the earth and the next age of men needed to get going.Now, could he have just thunderbolted them all? Yes. For whatever reason, he decided to let them all go out fighting. Well, most of them, the survivors kind of just went home, grew old, and died or in some cases became gods (allegedly Helen).There's also the implication that part of the reason for fathering all the demigods is the need to have a godlike enough one like Herakles because they had to fight the Giants, which would require a powerful enough mortal to land the killing blows.
Who is the child that will be more powerful than the Father, and overthrow him, ascending to his throne? We might already know the answer.
>>51565957Eh.>But when Zeus had driven the Titans from heaven, huge Earth bore her youngest child Typhoeus of the love of Tartarus, by the aid of golden Aphrodite. Strength was with his hands in all that he did and the feet of the strong god were untiring. From his shoulders grew a hundred heads of a snake, a fearful dragon, with dark, flickering tongues, and from under the brows of his eyes in his marvellous heads flashed fire, and fire burned from his heads as he glared. And there were voices in all his dreadful heads which uttered every kind of sound unspeakable; for at one time they made sounds such that the gods understood, but at another, the noise of a bull bellowing aloud in proud ungovernable fury; and at another, the sound of a lion, relentless of heart; and at another, sounds like whelps, wonderful to hear; and again, at another, he would hiss, so that the high mountains re-echoed.>And truly a thing past help would have happened on that day, and he would have come to reign over mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to perceive it. But he thundered hard and mightily: and the earth around resounded terribly and the wide heaven above, and the sea and Ocean's streams and the nether parts of the earth. Great Olympus reeled beneath the divine feet of the king as he arose and earth groaned thereat. And through the two of them heat took hold on the dark-blue sea, through the thunder and lightning, and through the fire from the monster, and the scorching winds and blazing thunderbolt. The whole earth seethed, and sky and sea: and the long waves raged along the beaches round and about at the rush of the deathless gods: and there arose an endless shaking. Hades trembled where he rules over the dead below, and the Titans under Tartarus who live with Cronos, because of the unending clamor and the fearful strife.
>>51567355>So when Zeus had raised up his might and seized his arms, thunder and lightning and lurid thunderbolt, he leaped from Olympus and struck him, and burned all the marvellous heads of the monster about him. But when Zeus had conquered him and lashed him with strokes, Typhoeus was hurled down, a maimed wreck, so that the huge earth groaned. And flame shot forth from the thunderstricken lord in the dim rugged glens of the mount, when he was smitten. A great part of huge earth was scorched by the terrible vapor and melted as tin melts when heated by men's art in channelled crucibles; or as iron, which is hardest of all things, is shortened by glowing fire in mountain glens and melts in the divine earth through the strength of Hephaestus. Even so, then, the earth melted in the glow of the blazing fire. And in the bitterness of his anger Zeus cast him into wide Tartarus.
Would Apollo bribing the fates to ensure his victory do anything?
>>51567285Literally the same being.>>51567230Then how about we have some new, unknown titan join up with Apollo's side and have him be the one to win in the end, while Apollo dies?>>51566863Sounds good.
>>51567240>Now, could he have just thunderbolted them all? Yes. For whatever reason, he decided to let them all go out fighting.Glory. The Gods were all about heaping glory on their children by providing them with battles to fight and deeds to do. Even if they didn't care if they lived, they did care if they had glory.
I don't understandWhat game is this
>>51555648he's just as canon as the Holy Grail
>>51568450>>51568487Greek Pantheon is used in most AD&D settings, so AD&D.
>>51544833>Also the Sea is a solitary enough place imho.Poseidon has dominion over land too. It's the classical triple breakup of the above-world (heaven, firmament, etc.), world (earth, ground+sea, etc.), and under-world (hell, Hell, etc.). Zeus had command of the above-world, Poseidon the world, and Hades the under-world.
>>51543517this seems like it could go very wrong very quickly. seriously, has any other greek god shown even a modicum of the responsibility/self restraint necessary to run the underworld?
>>51544876>Do the Gods truly die, or do they pop up in Hades domain and have to make a quick stroll.They won't die even if you kill them. Keep in mind that the ancient Greeks had a very specific concept of what death entailed; the immortals never do that, CAN'T do that. You can chop them to pieces, and they won't die. It would be very painful though. Gods are big babbys that run sobbing to daddy when they get a little cut; getting seriously hurt would knock them out for a while.
Fuck that, what side is my boy Hades on? Hades is best god and best husbando
>>51560999>HinduPlay Asura's Wrath
>>51569916My motherfucker. So far it seems that Hades'd just kinda dick around with his girl in the underworld (since there's a civil war, fuck that whole half a year above the ground shit) until it looks like someone's winning.
>>51571064I'm going to be sad when this thread is gone.I hope we see more "alternate history of mythology," threads after this one. That's always my favorite shit and its pretty rare.
>>51571158Do you like "mythpunk" stories too?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_derivatives#Mythpunk
>>51571178Well, from the description is sounds pretty neat despite being yet another less-than-necessary Blankpunk, and I do like Neil Gaiman. I'm worried this question is a trap though because the description mentioned retelling myths without the erasure of people of color and gays and validating alternative narratives and such, and this is 4chan even if it is also /tg/ so I feel like by saying it sounds good I'm being tricked so a /pol/ argument can start.
>>51571421>>51571178Ah, well, I tend to like those sorts of things...
>>51571627Well, I think it sounds neat, so feel free to suggest something for me to check out. Hopefully the derail I fear won't come.Then again we're 10 posts from sage, so I guess it doesn't matter at this point.
>>51571659The Exegesis of Philip K. Dick is probably a good start.
>>51544876Gods cannot be killed. They are deathless, "athanatos".The closest any god can come to death is like when Ares mentions that if Zeus blasts him to bits with a thunderbolt, he would "lie on the battlefield robbed of strength, as if among the dead", but he wouldn't actually be dead, just pretty much knocked out. When Diomedes tries to attack Apollo, his attacks literally bounce off while Apollo tells him to cut that shit out, and it's considered a big deal that Achilles is able to go head to head with Scamander.Even minor gods can't actually be killed, but they are easier to hurt. Especially if they're gods who can't fight, like Aphrodite.
>>51546350>GaiaGaia has already tried to overthrow Olympus once, and has been cast down and imprisoned. The war between the giants and the olympians was the next cycle, that the Olympians broke by having Heracles shoot all the Giants to death, since the Gods were fortold to be unable to kill the giants. So Gaia will need to be freed first.
>>51544794>The next ZeusConsidering he's a slaughtering, raping, insane hedonist, I don't doubt he is. Still isn't a god you want to be head of the pantheon.
If Apollo rose against Zeus, which of the Greeks would symbolically wage war against each other? Apollo>Megara>Eritria>Epidarous>Miletus>Ephesus (cause their patron goddess was Artemis)>DelphiZeus>Olympia>Sparta>Argos>Thebes
>>51545811>He thinks there was only one version of every greek myth
>>51576077>Argos and Sparta getting along
>>51576077Man, whoever swings Athens is going to have it huge. Athens had almost an order of magnitude more population than most of the city states.So I guess it depends on which side Athena decides to support.
>>51541954I'm definitely in favor of Athena being the overthrowing influence. Seeing as it was foretold by Metis that her child with Zeus would overthrow him, and though he devoured her, Athena later sprung from his head. Athena is sometimes said to be the child of Metis, and while she is a woman, she is very masculine in her aspect. I could definitely see Athena, seeing the wrong and injustice that Zeus has wrought, overthrowing him and instituting a new order.
>>51576422Clearly it would be Apollo
>>51576422People have been suggesting Athena would be against Zeus for various reasons>Prophesy'd to defeat Zeus>The proposed scenario where Zeus wrongs Apollo over a woman puts her on the side of justice, with ApolloAnd for some reason I think she'd end up the bride of Apollo, like Hera except not a bitch and really cool
>>51580195>Athena>bride of any GodPick one.
>>51584098>virgin goddess>fuck buddyAgain, pick one.
>>51585756Maybe its a sexless Marriage? Apollo runs around slaying young greek poon while in civil union with Athena. A political marriage.I think Athena would be down for that