So I'm creating a game setting in an alt-history Eastern Europe where the Nazis won WW2 - think of "The Man In The High Castle" or "Fatherland". What would Nazi Europe, especially Eastern Europe, look like in such an alternative world? How would the idea of "Lebensraum" be implemented in real life (ethnic cleansing? settlement?), and what effects would it have? What would the countries in today's Eastern Europe be called, if they exist at all? What would the towns and cities look like? Would the Nazis have destroyed everything and built new neoclassical Nazi cities, or would the real-life towns exist under new names? What differences would there be from real life?What would life for the average person be like? Not just the Polish or Russian people, but also the German settlers that the "lebensraum" was meant for? How would relationships between the native people and settlers be like, in a post-Hitler world - some kind of uneasy co-existence, or violent hostility like the Old West frontier? I'm interested in a good, nuanced setting and not cartoony evil Nazis with human lampshades. I want in-depth "worldbuilding" for this game setting.Anyways, discuss.
>>51394142First you need to establish how the Nazis won in your world.
>>51394142>Eastern Europe where the Nazis won WW2>Polish or Russian people
>>51394161I'm gonna go with the most "realistic" Nazi-victory scenario - they beat the USSR on the ostfront, Stalin gets fragged and Soviets sue for peace, the Western Allies never invade, eventually a separate peace with the West. The Nazi frontlines go up to Astrakhan-Arkhangelsk but not much further; the remaining USSR still exists behind that line. America and UK are untouched by the war.(I know that any kind of Nazi victory is a huge stretch, but this "limited" Nazi empire in Europe is the most plausible-looking, rather than the United Nazi States we see in Dick's book.)
>>51394142Well you can start by taking cues from post-fact USA.
>>51394205It's an interesting question, though. Would they have gone with "KILL EM ALL", or decide to take a more gradual colonization approach? There's many real-life cases of the latter, like the Anglo planters in Ireland or the Israeli settlers in Palestine. And it's definitely possible that Hitler's successors would've been less hardcore than him in this matter.Anyways, speculate about scenarios.
Half of Eastern Europe was Axis.You dont need need alt-history to imagine what life would be like in Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria, they'd keep their ways most likely.And if you want to advance it in time, just imagine Eastern Europe without communism. A paradise.
>>51394249This. Reich probably wins the space race (assuming there is one; they get to keep all their scientists). The more plausible "weird war" weapons probably get developed too.
>>51394142Well the Nazi's were Nationalists at heart and besides putting German on side posts and installing puppet Governments not alot changed. We'd see more conservative, tradtional European countries. Really with the Euro and centralised power in Brussels most of the sort of negatives that might have been perceived at the time actually came about anyway with the EU. I think the more telling sources are Eastern Euro's and Poles quotes on why they started fighting WITH the Germans agaisnt the Russians at the end of the war. The Germans were Guards on the hill sort of occupiers that didn't really bother the public day to day. Whereas the Russians billeted 50 soldiers in your house.
>>51394302Irrelevant, Poles would fight with Satan himself if it was against the Russians.
>>51394338On the contrary that's irrelevant. It was just context for the description of a hands off occupier.
>>51394267Romania/Hungary/Bulgaria were indeed Axis countries. I should've mentioned that.What I'm really interested in is the fate of the "lebensraum" countries, like Poland and Russia. They would've hardly been a paradise.>>51394272A space race, with Von Braun working on Germany's rockets, sounds very likely. Nazi Germany winning the space race is probable, since they had both genius scientists and a Soviet-like attitude to human life (no problem using human guinea-pigs in those capsules until they get it right.)>>51394302Poles were actually the only population that never collaborate with Nazis - they fought both the Nazis and Bolsheviks, and were crushed really badly. Poland was probably the main tragedy in WW2.(The Nazis didn't install a puppet government in Poland either, IIRC. They renamed it "Government-General" and put it under German rule, banning the name "Poland".)
>>51394265Nationalists and dissidents are disposed of.The rest becomes second rate citizens. They can hold menial jobs, they have access to education up to high school / trade school, but no college. They can't own property beyond personal necessity (say one room per person, children count as half, plus a limited form of savings). They can't participate in cultural events and general high-society stuff (or only on a special permit as a retinue of a proper citizen), they can't travel abroad.However, they are offered a way to gain full citizenship - exemplar service at assigned job, no criminal activity, fluent in German language, knowledgeable about German history, public subscription to the ideology, etc. And obviously in good physical shape. Because after all Aryan bloodline goes all over the Europe historically and can be present in some diluted form in anyone. All they need is to foster it to strength it is worthy of.And people will want to take this path, partially out of pride indoctrinated into them, partially because it secures them (and their children) better standing in life.Mixed couples are discouraged and child born form such union becomes automatically second class, plus the offending first class parent might become disowned by their own family. Loss of citizenship might also become form of criminal punishment.
>>51394416>They would've hardly been a paradise.They would've been a paradise. But without any Poles or Russians.
>>51394416Gypsies get gassed. All of them. No ifs, no buts, no exceptions.
>>51394232>I'm gonna go with the most "realistic" Nazi-victory scenario - they beat the USSR on the ostfront, Stalin gets fragged and Soviets sue for peace, the Western Allies never invade, eventually a separate peace with the West. The Nazi frontlines go up to Astrakhan-Arkhangelsk but not much further; the remaining USSR still exists behind that line. America and UK are untouched by the war.The best option for Germany is NOT to break the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. The idea of an invasion of the Soviet Union was the most stupid idea of Hitler together with the Holocaust.Germany annexes Austria and Czechoslovakia becomes protectorate. Germany and SU invade Poland. Britain and France declare war on Germany. Germany roflstomps France. From now you have several alternative options. War with the SU? Okay, stupid but historical accurate. Necessary option here for German victory is a truce/stalemate on the eastern front. Basically ending in a demilitarized zone after end of the war similar to how North and South Korea's borders looks today. Better option: No war, the entire eastern front debacle is never a thing, German resources can be used entirely on the western front. Germany and SU stay grudging "friends" after the war.War with the UK? Two options: Either once again truce as the UK realizes that with the entire focus of the German war machine on the west and France's fall the outlook ain't so peachy anymore. Meanwhile Italy would be gnawing at British colonies in Africa. Alternative: Operation Sealion/Reverse D-Day. Germany pulls of the invasion of UK, City of London becomes German territory, Wales and Scotland become protectorates, N.Ireland is retaken by Ireland.
>>51394142>On March 21st, 1943, Ribbentrop sent a memorandum to Hitler in which he stated the need for a "European Confederation." The composition of this new political entity was supposed to include Germany, Italy, France, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Serbia, Greece and Spain. A memorandum of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Germany from September 9th, 1943 reveals the structure of the future European Confederation. This proposed structure does not differ significantly at all from the current structure of the EU. Economic issues were to be governed by the European Economic Council, and it was suggested that a European Monetary Union and European Central Bank be created. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Confederation
>>51394265>Would they have gone with "KILL EM ALL",>Soviet Union suffered 10 million casualties alone just for war crimes against civilians (including POW casualtied).It's like you don't even realize what the entire point of declaring war against Russia was...
>>51394563>Alternative: Operation Sealion/Reverse D-Day. Germany pulls of the invasion of UKTHEN it invades the USSR 5 years later. That might work, as long as Stalin's paranoia is strong enough that he keeps killing off his best officers and torturing the Red Army into incompetency.
>>51394367>8 lane uncontrolled square round-abouts.Fucking evil heathens!
>>51394467Interesting ideas, all of them sound realistic.German cultural imperialism would've been a thing, akin to the Brits banning the Irish language. I can definitely see Hitler banning the Russian language, but since the German settlers would be hugely outnumbered by the natives (even after WW2 mega-deaths), such a ban wouldn't work that well. A black-market business of Germanic settlers learning Russian would probably be a thing.There was a Swedish alt-history book set in Nazi Europe a while ago. It takes place in the 60s, with Speer as the Fuhrer. I remember that the protagonist ends up in "Ostland" and notices that old Hitlerian apartheid-laws on Slavs are being a bit relaxed - they're allowed to get an education, participate in sports events, etc etc. (If I remember right, Hitler didn't want Eastern Europeans to be allowed literacy at all. No idea where this was from, though. "Hitler's Table Talk"?)>>51394477A paradise for the German settlers? Describe moar, plz.>>51394516Lol, yes.
>>51394613>CN Tower in the far-right background>I knew the fucking Leafs were involved
>>51394635>CN Tower in the far-right backgroundTry again...
>>51394592Right. Hitler's own ideas for Poles and Russians were definitely in the "KILL EM ALL" direction, but that wasn't always the policy by the German Army on the ground. It seems that the Nazis vacillated between several policies and kept options open.>>51394579Interesting. Also note that this proto-EU deliberately excludes Poland and all East Slavic countries...
>>51394142The upcoming Walkure RPG has this kind of alt-history world, but more scifi and less realistic. Which year are you setting your game?
Stupid idea, but pic still thematically appropriate.
OP read "Fatherland". It is basically this exact scenario.In it, Germany defeats Russia but can't obliterate it. Russian remnants continue an insurgency and the Urals / most of Asian Russia is a hellish no man's land.Eastern Europe, or at least Poland, seem to be ruthlessly exploited. By the 60s Pole's are emigrating to Germany as menial, second class workers.Been a long time since I read the book though. Check it out
>>51394676The 60s.It's a good decade to set it in - space race, "counterculture" kids, first post-Nazi generation, oldies like Speer and Heydrich are still around, etc etc. (I imagine the 60s culture in Nazi Germany would be treated much the same way Franco's Spain did in real life - hippies getting hanged up by their hair, etc etc.)
>>51394603That would be a terrible idea, actually. The USSR was going through a massive military expansion that would see it as being the world most well equipped army by 1944 or so. Attacking them by that point would be suicidal.
>>51394142Check out "In the Presence of Mine Enemies" by Harry Turtledove. Alt history from the viewpoint of a hidden Jewish family about half a century after the Nazis won.
My biggest question in this scenario is always: How does Germany hold on to the territories? The german and austrian heartlands had it decent, but nearly every single other territory had not discountable resistance movements. Even regions that were sympathtic to them got alienated by how dickish many germans were to them. Germany simply never had the manpower to hold on to most territories.
>>51394676>Walkure RPGhttp://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?33901-WalkureHas some cool images.
>>51394742>the world most well equipped army by 1944Really? Then why did they rely so much on lend-lease aid from the US IRL?
Apparently a quote from Speer:> Along with the new towns, gigantic SS cemeteries were to be established, looking like the tumuli of the ancient world, but rising to heights of a hundred meters and more. . . .in addition to Himmler’s fortress villages, many new towns were to spring up in the vicinity of the existing Russian towns. As models, Hitler would mention Regensburg, Augsburg, Weimar, or Heidelberg. These towns were to be as different as possible from each other. It was perfectly all right for us to copy familiar buildings, so that even in Russia a feeling for the fatherland could develop. In antiquity, Hitler would often say, no attempt wasmade to develop new forms of villas or temples for, say, the Greco-Roman colonial cities in Sicily. He also wanted to use a great deal of color. He recalled the ‘Theresian yellow’ to be found in any territory where the influence of the Habsburg monarchy extended, even deep into the wilds of Montenegro. Our future buildings in the Ukraine, in White Russia, and as far as the Urals must always be identifiable as products of German culture.
>>51394142Have you played Wolfenstein: The New Order? You should. Love that Gibraltar Bridge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pht8Bsq8Cno
>>51394615>old Hitlerian apartheid-laws on Slavs are being a bit relaxed - they're allowed to get an education, participate in sports events, etc etc.Well, I would say get a bit old school on this - there's is low culture and high culture. Some sports (soccer and most other team sports, cinema, circus, street performance) are low culture - permitted to both perform and attend by anyone (though monitored if they're not secretly agitating against the state). High culture (fencing, classic Greek athletics, theater, opera) are high culture.Low culture is for masses and by masses - bread and games. High culture is more about the prowess of the individual.>(If I remember right, Hitler didn't want Eastern Europeans to be allowed literacy at all. No idea where this was from, though. "Hitler's Table Talk"?)I fail to see how this would be a good idea - restricting them from higher education makes sense but the absence of basic literacy seriously limits the use of a workfoce. You'd still want those people as assembly line workers and farmers for the new Reich, I imagine. They can do that without knowing how to read but they would be quite inflexible in adopting any new technology or methodology when everything needs to be shown by example as in ye olde days of craft apprenticeship.I don't think the threat of samizdat anti-state literature is that serious to justify this. You can easily overwhelm it by your own propaganda if you control the main media.
>>51394142slavs make up the working class, while germans are their overseers. the law is very strict and it's easy to end up in a death camp, but generally only if you break it.there is probably forced castration / sterilization for people with defects as part of a mandatory eugenics programthere are definitely a lot of resistance movements and the whole thing would collapse pretty soon honestly, hard to manage a state in which 90% of people absolutely fucking hate the ruling 10% with good reason
>>51394563>The idea of an invasion of the Soviet Union was the most stupid idea of Hitler together with the Holocaust.Honestly one of the best options is also having Hitler die early. His successor would be infinitely more suited if they just don't meddle with the military. Hitler was a great demagogue (with the help of others) but he definitely was no military strategist or logistics expert. For example the whole development of the Me 262 jet fighters was set back by months and months because Adolf himself wanted them to be fighter-bombers...
>>51394906>90% of people absolutely fucking hate the ruling 10% with good reasonWell apartheid South Africa chugged along quite nicely for 40 years.
Maybe this guy's videos can be inspirational.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSCuE7jmFa4
>>51394563>N.Ireland is retaken by Ireland.Lost it, well played.
>>51394843It's a really awful idea, but apparently it was Hitler's intention. Here's from "Table Talk":> We must take care to prevent a military power from ever again establishing itself on this side of the Urals, for our neighbours to the West would always be allied with our neighbours to the East. That's how the French once made common cause with the Turks, and now the English are behaving in the same fashion with the Soviets. When I say, on this side o fthe Urals, I mean a line running two or three hundred kilometres east of the Urals. > It should be possible for us to control this region to the East with two hundred thousand men plus a cadre of good colonial administrators. Let's leam from the English, who, with two hundred and fifty thousand men in all, including fifty thousand soldiers, govern four hundred million Indians. This space in Russia must always be dominated by Germans. > Nothing would be a worse mistake on our part than to seek to educate the masses there. It is to our interest that the people should know just enough to recognise the signs on the roads.
>>51394924Apartheid was orders of magnitude milder compared to what the nazis wanted.
>>51394782Because Hitler hit them in June of '41, not too long after one of Stalin's purges. Lend Lease was enormously important, but if there hadn't been that pressure of invading Nazis then they might not have needed it so much - they have 3 years to do what they did IRL. Lend Lease would still help thoughThen there's things like when they moved a shit-ton of factories beyond the Urals in 41 after it became clear the Germans were coming, which saved them and meant they could keep working once they were put back together, but was still a huge undertaking that lost them a few months production.>>51394563Not breaking the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and probably not trying Sealion either - the Kreigsmarine really wasn't up to the job.That gives the Nazis and their allies all of central Europe, and the threat of the USSR means they can still stockpile wunderwaffen in a mini cold war
>>51394563What if Operation Vegetarian?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vegetarian
>>51394999Yes, true, but if we're talking about "soft genocide" as an option in the Ostreich, then it's a model. The Afrikaners were starting to herd the various black tribes into Swaziland et al. as a prelude to total racial separation.
>>51394983>It should be possible for us to control this region to the East with two hundred thousand menDohohoho! laughing_nkvd.jpgRussians aren't Hindus, dude. >just enough to recognise the signs on the roads.Still better than Saudi Arabia.
>>51394579>This proposed structure does not differ significantly at all from the current structure of the EU. Economic issues were to be governed by the European Economic Council, and it was suggested that a European Monetary Union and European Central Bank be created.As if we didn't have enough proof that the EU is evil.
>>51394142>[on German colonization of Russia] "As for the two or three million men whom we need to accomplish this task, we will find them more quickly than we think. They will come from Germany, Scandinavia, the western countries, and America. I shall no longer be here to see all that, but in twenty years the Ukraine will already be a home for twenty million inhabitants besides the natives." —Adolf Hitlerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Germanic_Reich
>>51394782Because a lot soviet industrial base was overrun during the opening of Barbarossa, while soviet build up was just starting and Stalin was going out of his way to fuck up the red army. In a scenario where Hitler waits 5 years to started the war with the USSR, it would something like 30000 t-34 alone, nevermind everything else.
>>51394769If Norway is anything to go by: Once rationing ends, assimilation starts.As for nations where actual population centers got bombed? Just takes longer.
>>51395015>the Kreigsmarine really wasn't up to the job.I'd really love to see how the German navy would go about aircraft carriers and naval jets if they had had the time.
>>51395059Hitler apparently thought Russians were slavish Hindus. Not saying they are...
>>51394592>It's like you don't even realize what the entire point of declaring war against Russia was...The destruction of Jewish Bolshevism. Literally nothing else.
Here's another weird nugget:>There was preparation for the construction of a new German metropolis of 300.000 inhabitants called Nordstern ("North Star") next to the Norwegian city of Trondheim. It would be accompanied by a new naval base that was intended to be the Germany's largest. This city was to be connected to Germany proper by an Autobahn across the Little and Great Belts.
>>51395168Hitler actually spells it out in Mein Kampf: "the destruction of Jewish rule in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a country."It's this setting in an alt-history Nazi Europe that interests me.
>>51395059the only reason the brits controlled India was because of the large as fuck indian bureaucracy they left to manage the country and large scale non interference in local affairs.Fucking hell, the brits were so terrified of the indian army revolting that they only started training Indian COs after ww1 showed that british officers were not cutting it.
>>51395194A myth, but it could happen in your fantasy world:>Himmler's personal masseur Felix Kersten claimed that the former even contemplated resettling the entire Dutch population, some 8 million people in total at the time, to agricultural lands in the Vistula and Bug River valleys of German-occupied Poland as the most efficient way of facilitating their immediate Germanization. In this eventuality he is alleged to have further hoped to establish an SS Province of Holland in vacated Dutch territory, and to distribute all confiscated Dutch property and real estate among reliable SS-men. However this claim was shown to be a myth by Loe de Jong in his book Two Legends of the Third Reich.
>>51395240hey that's a pretty good idea if you want to forcibly germanize places.
>>51395194Its not weird.Basically if you manage to Peace Russia, at some point, you might want to fight Russia again.And one of the better options is naval invasion, especially as artillery gets good enough to bombard inland from sea.Naziland could also be a place of sympathy to Finland, for reasons.
look how chile or franco spain looked, this but more german with more beer and more work
>>513952771952. One of the first novels about genetic engineering and also the first about furries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Order_(Nazism)#Conquest_of_Lebensraum_in_Eastern_EuropeThese guys had some caaaraaazy ideas for eastern europe:>The objective was to undermine the national cohesion of the Russians by promoting regional identification; a Russian from the Gorki Generalkommissariat was to feel that he was different from a Russian in the Tula Generalkommissariat. Also, a source of discussion in the Nazi circles was the replacement of the Cyrillic letters with the German alphabet. In July 1944, Himmler ordered Ernst Kaltenbrunner, the head of the RSHA, to begin the exporting of the faith of the Jehovah's Witnesses to the occupied east. Himmler considered the Jehovah's Witnesses of being frugal, hard-working, honest and fanatic in their pacifism, and that these traits were extremely desirable for the suppressed nations in the eastYes, fucking JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SPREADING THE REICH. You can't make this stuff up.
>>51395468https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_ins_Reich>In the Greater Poland (Wielkopolska) region (joined together with the Łódź district and dubbed "Wartheland" by the Germans), the Nazis' goal was the complete "Germanization", or political, cultural, social, and economic assimilation of the territory into the German Reich. In pursuit of this goal, the installed bureaucracy renamed streets and cities and seized tens of thousands of Polish enterprises, from large industrial firms to small shops, without payment to the owners. This area incorporated 350,000 such "ethnic Germans" and 1.7 million Poles deemed Germanizable, including between one and two hundred thousand children who had been taken from their parents (plus about 400,000 German settlers from the "Old Reich"). They were housed in farms left vacant by expulsion of the local Poles. Militant party members were sent to teach them to be "true Germans". Hitler Youth and League of German Girls sent young people for "Eastern Service", which entailed (particularly for the girls) assisting in Germanization efforts. They were harassed by Polish partisans (Armia Krajowa) during the war.
>>51394232If you have this, the Anglo-Allies are still essentially unbeaten and will still achieve air dominance. While odds of attacking onto the European mainland are low, attacks from the air are likely to be unceasing.Then, come 1945, you have the nuclear bomb. Germany is likely ruling over a baking irradiated cinder, depending on how long the bombardment lasts.
>>51394563> The idea of an invasion of the Soviet Union was the most stupid idea of Hitler together with the Holocaust.Stop falling for memes and watch this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD11igF7seEYes it is tl;dw, but you will get a bonus evasion to memes from sitting through it.
>>51395468Other ideas included promoting consumerism and small families by "make them think on how many cool trips they can go if they don´t have children" :>)
>>51395142Germany actually getting to use jets for more than a couple of months would be pretty neat.Though the Kreigsmarine would likely remain the least supported service, even if they got their carriers - hell, even if they got carriers with jets, when you remember that Whittle and Ohain both had working jets before the war was over>>51395563He said there's a pair of peaces - Nazi's get central Europe, but they're not at war with the US, UK or USSR (though they've taken a lot of the latter) - the Anglo-Allies, and the Germans to a lesser extent (given the way their program was), may well both be working on nuclear weapons, but they're not actually at war
>>51395610Give the basic breakdown.
>>51395649>"make them think on how many cool trips they can go if they don´t have children" :>)Are you my wife?
>>51395610>>51395726Same here. I don't have time to watch 1.5 hours of docudrama. Can't you give us 6 bullets points of the central thesis?
>>51395690He said there is no invasion of Europe (1943-44) and an "eventual" peace. That's plenty of time to drop a-bombs, especially since Germany has little ability to put pressure on the west.
>>51394232Hmm... I feel like any peace with the western allies, leaving france still occupied would have been impossible.Further, Hitler and the germans respected France as culturally and ethnically distinct from the german.A 'gracious' peace with the western allies immediately after the fall of Paris, with the germans de-occupying most of France, and perhaps Holland, allowing them to throw all of their forces and armour at Operation Barbarossa in the initial shock of operations, when they actually had a chance of KO'ing the soviets seems the most likely way that they might have come out on top.
>>51395726My guess is that it's just saying that war with Russia was inevitable for both political and material reasons, so it was better for Hitler to try to strike first.
I really just want to see a world do the Grasshopper Lies Heavy scenario. An alternate history where the Nazi's lost but things still turned out totally different.
>>51395997that would also be pretty cool to do - maybe "isolationist USA stays out of the war, Soviet Union overruns everything and plants hammer and sickle on Eiffel Tower".
>>51395977The invasion of the USSR would have been an entirely different story if not for Mussolini going YOLO into Greece and needing Hitler to delay Barbarossa for 6 months or so to save his dumb ass
>>51397040Or something like this:The US never opens up Pearl Harbor for the Japanese bombing as an excuse to get into the war, and the Japanese army doesn't run out of resources, doesn't lose morale and doesn't get disbanded at the end of the war. A stronger Japan means a weaker Russia and China, and at the end of the war, the Nazis still lose but have put a deep dent in the Soviet Union and Britain. While political opposition to Japan is an obstacle, the Soviet proves itself unable to maintain its eastern territories, and Siberian territories crumble away to Japan at the promise of a stable economy and mining, logging and industrial jobs. Britain staggers on for a decade with ruined historical buildings, rationing, civil unrest and its infrastructure in tatters - and in the end needs to take a huge loan from still-fascist (but peaceful) Greater Japan, as well as take in a large amount of Japanese workers to administrate the rebuilding.That way, you can get the Nazi thrill without swastikas and Hitler, and the "Japan will take over the world" story without as much panicked racism.
The atlantropa project sounds cool as fuck, say what you will about the nazis but they were ambitious.
>>51394563>N.Ireland is retaken by IrelandThis warms my heart.
>>51394142KILL THEM ALL, long-term version.-Restrict subhuman families to have two children only. All that serve germans live better than those who don't, because these die. The projections assure citizens that non-germans will extinguish at the rate Germania expands its numbers. The world slowly gets used to it as it isn't dramatic enough to western media and social attention span.-A network of tiefplatzes for this workforce are implemented to restore war damage and produce infrastructure, quarries, roads, factories, V-10 launch bays etc. Some selected people are killed just as before, but most are put to work like this.-All non-german dead are processed: soap to clean inferiors, fertilizer to feed the future, canned food for inferiors, non-germanic servitude extends unto death. Germania's Golden Reich* will be born from their ashes.*color symbolism: blond hair, fields of wheat, prosperity, previous reiches defined as iron, bronze, silver.Wildlifes Reserves and ocasional hunting grounds are created in the whole of Europe, future homes for auroches, european lions and other reborn species. Guess what is used as bait?Argentina and the brazilian south fuse into the Silberland Protectorate. South America itself is the playground for a Great Game between USA and the Reich.German cultural imperialism is exported just as american culture is today. Some german city becomes a sort of Hollywood where things are looser, and a contraculture develops.
>>51397540Fuck off back to the potato farm paddy
>>51394205>>51394265>>51394592>>51395168Well the Generalplan Ost (whether or not you believe it's real) foresaw the deccimation of the slavs to 15% of their current population. So there would still be russians and poles etc around, just a lot fewer.
>>51394142Nazi victory is a boring overused meme trope. If you want real alt history, go for perfect timeline Germany, starting in 1888.
>>51397582>using humans as bait.wow, how edgy.Only most animals will lose their instinctive fear of humans and the largely sparsely populated communities of germans will live in fear of man eaters.
>>51397833Oh what could have been
>>51397833Oh man, would England side with Germany during the First World War?
>>51397893>TFW when no Totenkopf Princess-bae
>>51397893If history didn't go the way it has, we wouldn't be able to read up on Willy waggling shenanigans. Seriously, Germany history from 1871 and 1914 is like a fucking sitcom.Maybe they should make it a sitcom called "Nobody listen's to Bismarck". The running gag is that Bismarck is always right but, you guessed it, nobody listens to him.
>>51398137Man, was he ever right about the welfare state!
>>51398112If Friedrich hadn't died? Things would have stacked up pretty differently, seeing as he seemed to get on with Bismark, and was a bit of a Teaboo, where Wilhelm was an Anglophobe
>>51394563>Operation Sealion>Not complete fantasyGermany had no real surface fleet, them invading Mars was more likely than them inading England.
>>51394142>Nazi Europe - what would it look like?
>>51398112Unlikely, by supporting Germany over France and Russia they would have effectively been submitting to German hegemony.
>>51398174It was mostly a concession to prevent the reds from getting into power. That said, under certain conditions the welfare state is a good idea. It only sucks when both patriotism decline and a large group of foreigners that don't consider themselves part of the people start exploiting that system. It basically falls apart when people stop realizing it's "their" money the government is using, and start seeing it as the money of someone else.Though if Bismarck ever made a mistake other than being born German, that was probably it.>>51398193Wilhelm was.... weird. He was an Anglophile and an Anglophobe at the same time. He loved England and he loved Victoria (his aunt, I think?) but at the same time he hated England. He visited their ports at some point and fell in love with their fleet, but at the same time he wanted to crush it with his own. I think it all started when his mother insisted on getting a British docter to assist with her birth, which resulted in Willy having a fucked up arm (which is unbefitting of a Prussian prince, who was expected to be an exemplary warrior-king).>>51398286I think a best-case scenario for Germany is securing British neutrality. If we want to go into alternative history, I can foresee the following ways WW1 develop in a non-Entente Cordiale world.>Germany attacks France through its eastern borders. France would probably have a much easier time defending itself and Plan XVII might actually work>Germany attacks through Belgium, Britain joins anyway, more or less historical WW1>Germany attacks through Belgium, Britain doesn't join. At this point it depends on whether or not France could pull a Miracle of the Marne without the BEF (which was incredibly small and died off rather soon, but was also incredibly professional and held off German conscript armies many times its size). I don't know enough about WW1 to call this.
>>51394367I hate this picture. Where are the ramps and interchanges?
>>51394563>Basically ending in a demilitarized zone after end of the war similar to how North and South Korea's borders looks todayAre you actually retarded? That DMZ exists because there are nations a tier up (China, USA) who enforce it. Whose going to enforce a DMZ between the USSR and Germany? That'd be an awfully big DMZ too.
>>51394723Walkure has also rules for the 60ies, and an exceedingly detailed timeline. If you can read Spanish, give it a go.Some hilarious oversights (gun calibers, names in non-Spanish languages) but it's kinda good.
>>51397833Or WW1. KAISERREICH!
>>51399317>Perfect timeline>A pre-revolutionary style monarchy imposes itself on Europe>Communists everywhere>Not a timeline where Byzantium still exists and dominates the East Mediterranean
>>51395126Let's not forget how much soviet materiel was lost in Barbarossa, too; they lost basically their entire pre-war tank fleet.
>>51399477the soviets realized tanks only survived a short while in major combat, so made them with just enough effort to last past then
>>51397582"Domination of the Draka", basically?
>>51399406>Not a timeline where Rome doesn't hire barbarian mercenaries >Not a timeline where Rome dominates Europe and the Middle EastIt's like you don't even pray to Jupiter.
>>51394516All in Europe. Any that jumped ship to America or Australia are likely fine. In this narrative did the Pacific front change?
>>51400060No the soviets lost all their tanks in barbarossa because vehicles with no fuel reserve and in some cases no shells were driving through rough roads attacking targets that stopped being there six hours ago in a complete trainwreck of organisation and were destroyed, captured, or just broke or ran out of gas.
>>51398688Sounds like Willy was just jelly of an empire in decline for no reason.
>>51400493>Jupiter>Not God or at the very least MithraThe failure of the Tetrarchy after Diocletian's rule shows us that a purely hellenic pagan Rome would've not survived the last stages of the 3rd century crisis. You can like or dislike christians, but Constantine was right individually of what religion he decided to sponsor.
>>51394142>What would the towns and cities look like?Much like they do today, except some more grandiose neo-classical architecture on government buildings. Oh, and fewer minorities. A lot fewer. >What would life for the average person be like? Not just the Polish or Russian people, but also the German settlers that the "lebensraum" was meant for? How would relationships between the native people and settlers be like, in a post-Hitler world - some kind of uneasy co-existence, or violent hostility like the Old West frontier? There would have been lots of purges, slavic ethnic groups would probably have seen their populations dramatically reduced. Ethnic Germans in the "lebensraum" area would have struggled at first, due to ideologically motivated policies, but things would have stabilized in less than a decade. Economic growth would have been slow due to excessive planning. The communities built in the conquered territories would have had an artificial feel, as they would represent idealized versions of German villages.My personal theory is that after Hitler and his generation of leaders died out, around the 60s and 70s, you'd see a transition to from National Socialism towards a sort of Democratic Nationalism. It would have been a bit like post war America. A strongly nationalistic population, which saw The State as central to civic life without excluding other institutions of civil society. The thing about convincing your people they are a master race, they would probably insist on having broad rights and political power.
>>51394142The continent, if the Nazis did things right, would be completely devoid of Jews and niggers, so it would look like an utopia.
>>51394677Is that the Bismark or an H-Class battleship?
>>51394927I really like the work he does.
>>51395142The Graf was not a good design for a Carrier. It had many flaws in the flight deck, armament and carrying capacity. It would have been woefully outclassed compared to even the British Carriers, let alone American ones.
>>51401145Looks very much like Bismarck.The H-classes would have different conning towers (way wider) and superstructures/observation platforms.Pic related, H-44.
>>51401265>The Graf was not a good design for a Carrier. It had many flaws in the flight deck, armament and carrying capacity. It would have been woefully outclassed compared to even the British Carriers, let alone American ones.Well yes, it would have been their first one after all.Obviously they wouldn't have perfect experience for designing/building them.
>>51402372And here one a little less super-sized, H-39 which would have had a very distinctive observation bridge.
>>51402372>>51402501I've always loved the Z-Plan Ships, and Germany's WWII Navy. Raeder was lucky in that he had far more freedom than any of the Kaiser's Admirals ever did. Until displaced by Dönitz he could run the naval war as he saw fit.
>>51402552Also would be very interesting to see how those ships' refits and modernizations would look in such an alternate timeline. German ships always woefully lacked in AA compared to e.g. the US ships bristling with 40-mm Bofors and radar equipment.
>>51394142Honestly, I'm kind of thinking it'll look like ACCA.
>>51402953Given the shift in the H-Class, getting more and more excessive with time, I think that's the exact same shift they'd go through in refits. Hitler's grandiose ambitions would eventually hit his Navy.
>>51394579The EU is a Nazi conspiracy?
>>51398112Unlikely, as in this timeline there would be no armsrace between Germany and Britain, so no reason for WW1. As >>51398112 said, he was very pro-british, as with wife was a british princess.>>51398286>>51398688There's always the possibility of the war not actually being started by the central powers/the central powers not even existing. A German-British alliance would just bring France and Russia even closer which was seen as a threat by the Brits in the 1890s.
>>51401006This is what I think as well - massive reduction of those peoples in Hitler's time, followed by a more moderate policy by his successors. Far from all Nazis had this "kill em all" approach to Eastern Europe. But since Hitler and Himmler thought this way, it would've been the initial approach.
>>51405551>There's always the possibility of the war not actually being started by the central powers/the central powers not even existing.In that case Germany is straight-up fucked. The July Crisis reveals the Germans wanted war sooner rather than later. That's because the Germans had no interest in peace, and they wanted to go to war in the best possible situation. France and Russia were pretty close (despite one being a revolutionary republic and the other an ancien regime monarchy. That always struck me as pretty weird) and in for example 1917 they'd be unstoppable: France would be fully mobilized (and have their Horizon Blue uniforms issued to all their troops) while Russia's railway system and industry would've been modernized to such an extent it'd allow them to entirely overshadow Germany. In 1914 the Germans fought against an unprepared France and a backwards Russia (and Britain) and even then they lost.
>smoking is mostly banned>veganism is pretty common>instead of mcdonald's and kebab stores it is bratwurst kiosks and kebab stores (krauts still imported in turks as cheap labor)>ss ended up becoming a mix of french foreign legion, modern eu military and dedicated military caste >economy is in 80s ussr tier decline>computer tech is decades behind us&uk>italian dmz is korean dmz style heavily armed hot spot waiting to explode
>>51406889Also>krauts have their own james bond equivalent about an aryan agent that fights against international judeo-bolshevism
>>51406857Keep in mind that in this timeline, european politics between 1888 and 1914 would most likely be fundamentally different. Germany and the UK would be a lot closer, which in turn would bring France and Russia together earlier which might provoke a war before 1914, for example over conflicting interests of France and Britain in Africa. Also France, just as Germany, was very dependent on food imports so a sea blockade would probably hit them very hard as well.
>>51406907>Also France, just as Germany, was very dependent on food importsMuch less so than Germany, right? Wasn't Germany securing France in WW2 vital for their food supply?
>>51406920Less than Germany, which at that time was the number one importer for food, but still.
>it's a nazis won ww2 alt history episode
>>51407008>tfw krauts never get to win the war where they actually were the good guys
>>51407029>it's a germany diddu nothing episode
>>51407029lol at Ottoman Turks being "the good guys", ever.
>>51407044Nothing wrong with treating occupied territories the same way as all european powers treated their colonial holdings desu.
>>51407073Tbh neither side was "good guys" in ww1
>>51407059There are no good guys in the international politics imbeciles.Good depends on the side you are on. If you are a russian living in russia during cold war you are the good guy and west is the baddies. And vice versa.
>>51407073I think this was a big reason why the Brits and French were so disgusted by the Nazis - the methods they used to rule their occupied Eastern European territories weren't all that different from how the Brits and French dealt with their colonies in Asia and Africa, but it wasn't supposed to happen in Europe. The way the Nazis massacred the town Lidice was really shocking by modern European standards, but it was standard policy for "pacification" in French Indochina, among other places. They brought colonialism home to Europe, so to speak.Hitler seems to have liked this comparison. He often called the Ukrainians "negroes" and "a colonial people".
>>51407136Tbh Soviets were the good guys during Cold War.
>>51394249too true too soon
>>51394249I don't think that 1776 USA and 19XX Nazi Germany have that much in common.
>>51407153Without a balance of power and the total dominance of a single super state the situation turns into hell for the smaller countries. The super power extends its reach towards them ,creating incredible chaos for furthering its own agenda. Also the goals turn from patriotism and ideological motivations to consumerism. This in turn will lead to stagnation of the sociiety and degredation of the civilization. A constant struggle between opposing factions is important even if it is dangerous. Otherwise it will be the fall of roman civilization v2.
>>51407029>Germany>WW1>Good guysYou know it all started because they gave Austria-Hungary carte blanche support right? Prompting the Austrians to demand 10 points in which the Serbians had to effectively give up their national sovereignity? Of which the Serbs accepted 9 points and considered the 10th still negotiable?Which reminds me, Serbia needs to be put on that spot as that's the country where the entire war more or less started and the Austrian incompetence in regards to defeating small serbia is hilarious too.>>51407136>"There are no good guys in the international politics imbeciles.">That paraphrasing combined with that pictureIs that supposed to be some Japanese prettyboy De Gaulle?
>>51407250When you think about it we are at the end times as it was in age of sigmar. But not in the earth shattering cataclystic scale. As in the destruction of the old and beautiful and replacing it with new and bland. Everything is about instant gratification nowadays , there are no subtle hints of beautif there is golden brilliance. There are no small victories or sacrifices that are meaningfull. Only empty meaningless battles that are there to create an illusion of grandeur. In the grim darkness of the 2nd millenium there is only decadence, stagnation and fall.
>>51407309>Oops wrong image.
>>51407295It was from the girls und panzer manga where they are fighting with below 10 t tanks. THe main characters were a japanese samurai inspired girl with long legs and a blonde cute girl who is secretly gay for the samurai. But i dont remember the name of the manga itself.
>>51407295>and the Austrian incompetence in regards to defeating small serbia is hilarious too>fuck up against Serbia>fuck up against ass backwards Russia>fuck up against motherfucking ItalyWorst allies in history 2bh
>>51398286Actually a German central Europe would have weakened Frances oversea holdings and not the British empires.Imagine if France invaded Belgium.
>>51407379>>fuck up against motherfucking ItalyTo be fair, that was a fuck up for both sides
>>51407627Blackadder is the best.
>>51407029Remind me why we sided with France and Britbongistan. It was the most pointless war in our history.
>>51407857European politics. Kaiser Willy had just fucked everything up and created a situation where it seemed to the tsar and the Duma that allying with Western Europe was most advantageous to keep Germany and A-H from gobbling up lands in the Balkans, which would put a damper on the tsar's future plans to gobble up the Ottomans.
>>51395610Niggas needed oil fields or else thier army was unsustainable.
>>51394579No one dared to shuffle that showerWhen nobody cares to be cleanWas not even pushed underwaterJust another nazi scheme yeahThe big takeover
>>51407857>>51407882Wasn't the Tsar also a Panslavist, who supported the Serbian desire to found what was effectively Yugoslavia?
>>51407627>>51407748>A war which would have been a damn sight simpler if we'd just stayed in England and shot 50,000 of our men a week!Black comedy at its bestAlso>Look, I'm as British as Queen Victoria!>So your father's German, you're half-German and you married a German?!every fucking time
>>51407627>Actually funy clip/show>Ruined by a laugh trackWhy do people keep doing this shit? It's like they're insecure about their own writing skills so they shove in a laugh track to inform everyone that this is supposed to be funny. I know it originated from some shows back in ye olden timey dayes being recorded before a live audience, but just shoving in a track is lazy.
>>51408494I guess that was the norm of the time. Since everyone had the pavlovs dogs reaction to the laughing track they probably would not find the parts without sound effects funny if they were not reminded they should laugh .
>>51394142oh hey it's this thread againlemme just run through this thread for you real quick op>There was no way the Nazi's could have won WW2>lmao it would look gr8 because hitler did nothing wrong>SUPER SCIENCE!>Diesel Punk>USA, USA!Did I miss anything? Because we have had this thread 90,000 times.
>>51394579>This proposed structure does not differ significantly at all from the current structure of the EU. Economic issues were to be governed by the European Economic Council, and it was suggested that a European Monetary Union and European Central Bank be created.>Germany is central to modern EU>this is basically what happened with the real EUaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAA
>>51400493>Believing that Rome fell because of hiring foreign mercenaries>Actually drinking the Stefan Molyneux koolaidWew lad
>>51398112England was compelled to enter the war because Germany went through Belgium, with which they had a defense treaty.Russia was pulled in because the German mobilization plans assumed a war on two fronts instead of just concentrating on kerbstomping the frogs
Disgusting thread. Fuck off to /pol/.
>>51409159You know that the West has been in the hands of Germanic generals since Stilicho, right? Precisely because due to Germanic migration, the Roman army wasn't all that Roman. The Germanics did the work the Romans didn't want to do.
>>51409865I'm willing to believe this was the plan all along because like all German plans, it backfires in ways previously thought unimaginable
>>51409061DOITSU NO KAGAKU WA SEKAI ICHI
>>51408962nah, you got most of it. /pol/'s on the loose again, it seems
>>51410595>every wehraboo is /pol/Nice meme
>>51409159>Thinking the barbarians aren't responsible for the collapse of RomeIt's like you are being fucked in the ass by those pant wearing savages right now
>>51394232I'd say that the most realistic Nazi-victory scenario is for the Battle of the Bulge to be successful (somehow) and the USA / Canada / UK are cut off - Hitler then surrenders to the Allies on favourable terms, and joins with them to fight off the Soviets. France is freed, the Soviets are pushed back to the Russian borders, Germany is granted everything east of Germany with the support of the Allies to keep the Soviets out of Europe proper.
>>51408962I suggest you also check >>51375444 for even more crazy and patriotism./tg/ has been going places lately
>>51410749/pol/'s been uppity since the election
>>51410835Fuck off, /leftypol/
>>51410738How the hell is that realistic? Why would the Allies throw over Stalin and break the Yalta agreement?And even if the Germans break through to brussels, the Western Allies are hardly "cut off", nor can any gains be held for long once the weather clears.
>>51410871Now now, they're still butthurt over muh Madam President failure to win against hundred kilos of shit in a wig. Give them anywhere from 4 to 8 years and they might get over it only to be asspained over another Republican president.
>>51394142Lots of impressive monumental architecture coupled with rampant unemployment and poverty once the chief Nazi's unsustainable economic decisions came home to roost because Hitler's inner circle didn't listen to the actual economists in the party.
>>51410960So modern day Europe but with better looking buildings.
>>51410835Well, I'm not 100% up to date with situation over the pond but I've heard that The Wall is really gonna be a thing. Surely we will all live in interesting times.
>>51410738>most realistic Nazi-victory scenario>Any victory after the Battle of KurskNupe. The last realistic chance of victory the Nazis had was crushing the Red Army, taking Moscow and driving the Soviets beyond the Urals in '43. The war was a forgone conclusion by the time the western Allies landed in France.Kursk ended the Wehrmacht's chances of victory in the east.
>>51410975Well you'd have a much more depopulated eastern Europe and instead of post-war reconstruction in the West aided by the USA's economic dominance, you'd have a central European economy being horribly mismanaged by Hitler et al and no outside aid.So a shit-load worse really.But yeah, more landmarks for future generations to gawk at.
>>51411092>more landmarks for future generations to gawk at.Only thing that counts, really
>>51410925>Now now, they're still butthurt over muh Madam President failure to win against hundred kilos of shit in a wigThere's no need to be upset. Feminists can still rejoice when France gets its first female head of state in 1500 years.
>>51411162Le Pen's jaw is pretty manly
>>51394416>Nazi Germany winning the space race is probableGerman post-war economy would have been a shit-show worse than the USSR's was, even if they won. Even prior to the invasion of Poland, Hitler was being warned by his own advisors that his plans to occupy relatively undeveloped eastern European territories would actually end up being a burden rather than a benefit on the German economy. They simply wouldn't be able to afford an Apollo program.Couple with the fact that as soon as his V2's weren't neccesary anymore, Von Braun would have probably been thrown back into jail as a political dissenter, as he was during the war for 'defeatism' when he complained at a private dinner party that he'd prefer to be using rockets to explore space rather than flatten London landmarks.Hitler was much, much more into architecture than rockets for enhancing national prestige, just look at how much influence his personal architect, Albert Speer had within his inner circle, relative to the V2 rocket program which had to fight for funding with half a dozen other wunderwaffe programs. The Nazi's rocket program would have been slashed the moment they didn't have anyone to launch them at anymore.I don't know where the 'If the Nazis won we'd have Moon colonies by now!' meme has come from, but it's exactly that, a meme.
>>51411264Question about those wunderwaffe: other than rockets, were they viable? Because from a lot of people I get the impression that Hitler threw money at the most retarded playthings rather than at Russia or Britain or America.Though on the flipside, a succesful wunderwaffe could've turned the tide of the war (the atombomb could be considered one) so maybe it wasn't as stupid a modus operandi as it might appear?
>>51411264>They simply wouldn't be able to afford an Apollo program.>implying the US could afford the Apollo programYou don't seem to understand how deficit spending works
>>51394723I'm wondering what 60s America would look like. Without lend lease and the war in Europe, all the war production is going to go East. And the war in the Pacific is going to be much different. Be interesting to see how the development of the a-bomb happens.China's going to play or a lot different too, with both the US and Russia having more resources free.
>>51411323How much a studio and set would really cost, though?
>>51409294Is this sincere or a shitpost
>>51395126Yeah. Barbossat has to happen. Outside of Germany spontaneously getting nukes.
>>51411299>were they viable?Depends what you mean by viable. Would they have been able to get them to work? Most of them, probably. Would they have been a cost effective use of increasingly limited resources? Definately not.The V2 program wasn't even really viable. If they'd developed them earlier in the war, then yeah, they might have stood a chance of forcing Britain to surrender since the V2's were practically impossible to intercept and did catastrophic damage. That is assuming the Nazis actually worked out that their entire spy network in the UK was being run by British Military Intelligence agencies and their best spy-ring for reporting successful strikes was actually just a single Portugese guy and his collection of sockpuppets.Even then, Britain wasn't the real threat to Germany, it would have helped, but V2's wouldn't have done shit against mobile Red Army divisions so really it was just a huge waste of resources.They should have just put their money into perfecting the Panther and streamlining it's production, rather than fucking about with 'war winning' super-weapon concepts.At sea, if they'd ramped up U-Boat production rather than trying to get into a dick measuring contest with the British Home Fleet's battleships, again, they would have had much greater success.>>51411323Well enlighten me please.Because I haven't got a clue how a nation which would be busy making the Weimar Republic look like a prosperous economic powerhouse, had already plunged itself massively into debt creating the illusion of prosperity in the late 30's AND had just sunk huge sums of capital into an unexpectedly prolonged and bloody war, would suddenly be able to do something that ultimately defeated the much more technically adept and economically stable USSR.
>>51411501with pol it's always sincere or shitpost
>>51411457It's not a question of studio set, the special effects to simulate low gravity cost a damn fortune before CG was a thing.
>>51394142>>51394367>>51394583>>51394950All this fucking art where the "wenderglobe" is a thing.You fuckers need to learn architecture. That shit would have had its own weather, considering the height of the dome, and would have taken an easy 20 years to build. Slave labour or no. Im all for alternate visions of history, but the idea that "Germany just does it" is bullshit.
>>51411457More than you'd think;>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6MOnehCOUw
>>51407146Read 'Black Earth'?
>>51411524>At sea, if they'd ramped up U-Boat production rather than trying to get into a dick measuring contest with the British Home Fleet's battleships, again, they would have had much greater success.But that's what they did? The surface fleet production plans were abandoned with the outbreak of war.
>>51411597Didn't Albert Speer have the same opinion - he said the swampy soil of Berlin wouldn't be able to support that monster dome, IIRC. But Adolf wanted it built anyway.
>>51410960>didn't listen to the actual economists in the party.The Nazis had actual economists in their ranks?I thought they all fled to Vienna...and then to Chicago.
>>51411645Yeah, after they'd already wasted a fuck load of resources building the Bismark class warships. They even laid down steel for the next gen super-battleships which were nothing but an 'ours are bigger than yours!' aimed at the USA and Japan.Plus, they then wasted a load of time developing 14 different, new kinds of U-Boat, instead of picking one and producing enough of them to starve Britain into surrender. This is true across their entire war effort. People get the idea that the Nazis were running on super-science because they had all these 'firsts' relative to the Allies, when in reality, both sides were usually considering the same tech.The Allies did a cost-benefit analysis and decided a new super-heavy tank that could solo thirty Tiger II's but could only be moved on the five largest roads in Yurup wasn't worth it and just built another 10,000 Shermans with a slightly bigger gun.The Nazis would just shout 'FUND IT!' before yanking the money from the program three months later to allocate it to the next thing that had caught the Fuhrer's fancy.The Nazis funded research programs like a retarded kid trying to pick what he wants in a sweet shop.
>>51411764Well they had Schacht....they just didn't listen to him very often.
>>51411643Better yet, read Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder. It's the definitive history book about what happened and what was planned in Eastern Europe/Ukraine.
>>51411799>government by capitalists vs government by socialists(fascists)
>>51411828His service under the NS regime must have been like one giant only sane man sketch
>>51411799So Japan simply did not have the industrial or military capacity to defeat America but tried it anyway, and Germany would've had the capacity to defeat the Soviet Union and Britain if they actually spent their money reasonably?Holy hell, so many people died for this unorganized shitfest? Which also makes me wonder... Japan did Pearl Harbor in 1942, right? The same year as Stalingrad? And they also signed a non-agression pact with the SU right? Maybe I'm saying something incredibly stupid here, but even if the Japs were starved for resources wouldn't it be better to invade Russia? Even if Stalingrad ended in a German defeat, the Russians would now have to fight on two fronts thousands of kilometers removed from eachother, and every victory on one front would translate to a defeat on the other. Was the only reason for this really the Japanese navy having a tight grip on the emperor?I guess the old saying is true: war is far too important to be left to politicians.
>>51411884Pearl Harbor was 1941. And no, Germany did not have the industrial capacity to beat the Soviets, their only chance was a quick success with Operation Barbarossa and beating the USSR to a pulp before they could organize
>>51411799There was also shit like the way Hitler believed competition would breed strength and efficiency, even in things like research and military divisions - which was why there were several nazi nuclear programs, all fighting for resources, and why the SS had panzer divisions even when the Heer was under-supplied
>>51411884Japan invading Russia would have have ended with Soviet realizing that it might be time to surrender their eastern lands.Or at the least the parts they can't defendThis is the same Russia where sailing east from Moscow is halfway impossible unless you where in the best parts of summer.
>>51411884The part of Russia that Japan could reasonably conquer had nothing worth conquering.
>>51411926>There was also shit like the way Hitler believed competition would breed strength and efficiencyTo play the devil's advocate, on paper that sounds like a good idea.
>>51412012It was a good idea for Hitler, it meant people were always second guessing and attempting to curry favour with him, which is how he ended up so firmly secured in his position.Unfortunately it also makes everyone as paranoid as fuck, and means everyone is constantly overstating their own perfomance, understating their rivals (or actively trying to fuck them) and generally just means you're playing Divide and Conquer with your own people. It's part of the reason people rarely criticsed his decisions, not matter how mental.None of which is helpful when attempting to fight a major industrialised war.Good for the man, bad for the country.
>>51412012On paper communism and multiculturalism sound like good ideas too, and look how those turned out.
>>51394142>alt-history Eastern Europe where the Nazis won WW2Isn't that the most overdone type of alt-history?What about a setting where the the Allied invasion never gets beyond liberating France, and Germany and adjacent lands fall into Soviet hands? Alternative Cold War where much of Europe is under a more successful Soviet Union?Haven't seen that before.
>>51411884>Germany would've had the capacity to defeat the Soviet Union Technically. Again, it was Hitler who decisively fucked them by micro-managing his generals on the eastern front, but really, the whole of Op Barbarossa was a pretty desperate attempt to flatten the USSR before it picked up momentum. Stalingrad was a mess and it was largely Hitler's doing that it went on long enough for the units there to be cut off.Hitler, being the egomaniac that he was (seriously, read Table Talk and Albert Speer's autobiography) focused on Stalingrad because in his mind, reputation was everything and Stalingrad carried his opponent's name. Stalin just saw it as a good opportunity to drag a large chunk of the Germans invading his country into an unneccesary war of attrition that his forces were much better equipped for. The moment the Red Army got their act together, they could defence in depth to such a ridiculous degree that the relatively small Wehrmacht didn't have a hope. Blitzkrieg only works if you can punch out through the enemy lines into their soft underbelly, their logistics. The Red Army was so fucking deep the panzers ran out of fuel before the reached the rear echelon.Japan was fucked the moment it poked the USA. Even if they'd completely sunk the whole US fleet at Pearl Harbor, American industrial capacity could replace naval losses faster than anyone else on the planet by a long way, and the US population is collossal next to Japan's. Even the guy who led the Pearl Harbor attack knew they'd already lost before the last ship finished burning.I assume they thought they could hit America, grab a bunch of Pacific Islands whilst it's fleet was out of commission, then try and sue for peace. No idea WHY they thought that, but they did apparantly. Bit like Hitler expecting Britain and France to ignore the Luftwaffe flattening Warsaw, it apparantly did genuinely shock him, which makes you wonder what world he was living in.
>>51411651>expert says it can't be done>hitler wants it anywayLeadership of Nazi Germany summed up right there.
>>51412262>the US population is collossal next to Japan'sNot really, in 1940 it was USA 132m vs Japan 73m. Not even double. But yes, American industrial capacity was 11x times higher. >which makes you wonder what world he was living in.Dictators live in a bubble of sycophants because all the critics have been executed or silenced.
>>51407379The only army more disappointing than Austria, is Serbia and Italy, the latter were just lucky enough to be on the same side and have a third ally behind Austria (Russia)
>>51394142GURPS Alternate Earths did this. Several times, actually. They're they various Reich timelines, with Reich-5 being a near-future high tech nazi world. Remarkably complete treatments. The lastest version is a chapter in Infinite Worlds; however, that chapter mostly focuses on the Reich timelines in the context of their covert operations on other parallel universes. The version in Alternate Earths (or possibly Alternate Earths II, I forget which) is more workable for a standalone game in its own right. The bottom line is that where your divergence point goes will greatly determine what the post-war world looks like. One thing to note: the myth that nazi germany was highly productive and efficient economically isn't supported by the facts. The nazis themselves wanted to look good, and the allies wanted them to look powerful so as to encourage their own war efforts ("Work harder! The nazis are putting in overtime!"). In truth, like other nationalized systems, there was an initial "sugar rush" of productivity in the first days after nationalization, followed by a long decline in innovation and productivity and a vast increase in corruption. Up to a certain point, looted riches and slave labor made up the difference, but in the end even that didn't reverse the decline. In many ways, that was even more devastating than allied bombing. The Soviets went through something similar, but it took much, much longer. And no I don't think it was their system that made the difference-- some communist systems identical to the Russians' fell apart much more quickly. It doesn't appear to have been culture, either. I'm not sure what the difference was.Of course, the nazis after a victory and under a new fuhrer might have made radical changes to their system, much as Deng Xiaoping changed things and turned China into a powerhouse global power. It's so dependent on individual personalities and events that you're pretty much free to author things however you want them.
>>51394782IRL Stalin had just purged the Russian army general staff. As in, pretty much liquidated everybody. Yes, Russia survived by luck, iron determination, and a ton of American money and materiel aid.Stalin was sure he had at least a year before Germany set its sights on Russia. He wasn't a fool. He saw that Germany couldn't handle a two-front war, and felt that Hitler wouldn't attack while the Soviets were still sending the Nazis raw materials. I think his plan was to let the fascists and free-marketers fight it out. Whichever side won, they would be dangerously weakened by the effort and Stalin could march in and gobble up everything himself. His own writings from the time seem to support that. Many in the older generation hate this theory, because it smacks of the nazi propaganda meant to justify Barbarossa... but allied rapproachment with the USSR was sensible and moral enough without them having to be painted as totally innocent victims. Meanwhile, Stalin felt that Britain's plan was to provoke a Russo-German war. That Britain's plan was to conquer Europe by waiting for that war and then storming across europe turning it into an imperialist capitalist bastion. So he basically didn't believe any of the intelligence reports he got (tons!) that said that the Germans were planning invasion. It just didn't seem possible to Stalin because it was so dumb. Hitler was driven by a sense of destiny and his own belief that he'd die in early middle age. He felt that only he had the will to defeat Russia, so he moved up the timeline. I think he also saw Russia's industrialization and maybe felt it was "now or never" not realizing that there was no condition under which Germany could fight the entire world and win. IE "never or never". But that last point is controversial. Also, given Hitler's personality, it's possible that Barbarossa was driven at least in part by boredom and a desire for more short glorious ground campaigns.
>>51412262Germany was also greatly hobbled by poor intelligence capabilities. The British famously turned nearly every german officer sent ashore and doubled nearly every agent they recruited. And that's in addition to one of the greatest triumphs of signals intelligence in world history. The Russians penetrated them so hard that the German ambassador to the USSR warned them about Barbarossa. Sure, Stalin refused to listen to his intelligence agencies, but once the shooting started the soviet commanders got better briefings on German general staff activity and planning than the Germans' own field commanders. So far as I know, and despite widespread propaganda to the contrary at the time, the Nazis basically failed to recruit anybody of consequence, and their signals intelligence was surprisingly weak as well (the Red Orchestra's capture being more about the GRU's desperation than the germans' competence). There was a lot of spy-vs-spy skullduggery in the occupied countries' colonies and neutral countries. But not much of that amounted to anything. Some I think was that (like Americans) the Germans weren't culturally suited to espionage. But I think much of it was ideological. Hitler had no shortage of admirers... before the war. Once the war broke out, his supporters in other countries were mostly nationalists for their OWN countries rather than Germany and so cut their ties.Fun fact: the House Un-American Activities Committee searched for and attacked suspected fascist sympathizers on weak or no evidence-- often going after political rivals rather than real nazis. The tactics were used ten yeras later by the same committee to go after communists-- called the Red Scare.
>>51413035>Fun fact: the House Un-American Activities Committee searched for and attacked suspected fascist sympathizers on weak or no evidence-- often going after political rivals rather than real nazis. The tactics were used ten yeras later by the same committee to go after communists-- called the Red Scare.This would make for a really interesting setting in the US, fascist and communist witch hunts for years, in the midst of a three way Cold War.
>>51409865>far right GermanyNot gonna happen lad. Krauts are the ones trying to ruin Europe AGAIN.
It would be a very weird alien and above all ~heavily alternative~ history.The Nazis would require absurd amounts of either futuristic technology or magical bullshit to win WW2. There is no possible conventional scenario possible for a Nazi victory aside from "suddenly a fucking asteroid crashes onto the USA and Russia simultaneously".I can imagine a Wehrmacht-fucking-murders-the-Nazis-in-a-coup-and-joins-the-Allies-in-a-march-to-Moscow scenario but that's about it as non-scifi plots go.
>>51409901>like all German plans, it backfires in ways previously thought unimaginableThe Savage Hun is the second closest think the world has to cartoon supervillain territory.
>>51394367/o/ was behind this image. But that is some crazy ass engineering and urban planning
>>51407177they both planned on ausrottening the native population squatting on the land they just grabbed
If Russia exists at all as a rump state in Asia it would later be annhilated or at least get a coup d'etat once the Krauts find out about that huge oil and gas reserves. Would be basically US invades Iraq, except with cold and forests instead of heat and sand
>>51399063This is the core struggle under super-late Nazi rule. Everyone they wanted to get rid of is gone, but that doesn't mean your highways aren't gonna stay brutally authoritarian. If you didn't want to go this way for 3 hours you shouldn't have got on, they'd say. Diverging from your path shows weakness and uncertainty, not to mention a criminal lack of faith in the government's chosen direction for you.
>>51416520Then why wouldn't the Reich Urban Planning Minister order the construction of monorails and subways instead? Imagine half those surface roads replaced with beautiful parks, and the upper roads as monorails that glide serenely above the fatherland.
>>51414709>Wehrmacht-fucking-murders-the-Nazis-in-a-coup-and-joins-the-Allies-in-a-march-to-MoscowWW2 was an allied punitive conflict against the Germans. They couldn't give less of a shit about the Russians and anyone who did got Patton'd.
Albert Speer talks about his and Hitler's concepts:>Our happiest concept, comparatively speaking, was the central railroadstation, the southern pole of Hitler’s grand boulevard. The station, its steelribbing showing through sheathings of copper and glass, would havehandsomely offset the great blocks of stone dominating the rest of the avenue.It provided for four traffic levels linked by escalators and elevators and wasto surpass New York’s Grand Central Station in size.>State visitors would have descended a large outside staircase. The ideawas that as soon as they, as well as ordinary travelers, stepped out of thestation they would be overwhelmed, or rather stunned, by the urban sceneand thus the power of the Reich. The station plaza, thirty-three hundred feetlong and a thousand feet wide, was to be lined with captured weapons, afterthe fashion of the Avenue of Rams which leads from Karnak to Luxor. Hitlerconceived this detail after the campaign in France and came back to it againin the late autumn of 1941, after his first defeats in the Soviet Union.This plaza was to be crowned by Hitler’s great arch or ‘Arch of Triumph’ as he only occasionally called it. Napoleon’s Arc de Triomphe on the Place de l’Etoile with its one-hundred-sixty foot height certainly presents amonumental appearance and provides a majestic terminus to the ChampsElysées. Our triumphal arch, five hundred and fifty feet wide, three hundredand ninety-two feet deep, and three hundred and eighty-six feet high, wouldhave towered over all the other buildings of this southern portion of theavenue and would literally have dwarfed them.
>>51394142The author of this alternate-history piece did a great deal of research on the Nazi plans for Europe. I would suggest giving it a read.
>>51416846Hitler really had an obsession with surpassing Paris, didn't he? He even had half a mind to destroy it as soon as he conquered it, and then again gave orders to destroy it in 1944 as the Germans were retreating. In that between period his idea was to 'destroy' it by overshadowing it. Makes me wonder if Hitler would've made for a good architect in an alternate history where he never rose to power.
>>51394142>Watch Man in the High Castle and play the first two Call of Duty games.>Become interested in Nazi Germany culture and get awestruck by their sense of design, futurism and order, while keeping in mind the horrors of Holocaust and the atrocities committed by Josef Mengele. >Can't talk about it on 4chan or other websites, because people will think I'm some edgy, insecure white supremacist /pol/tard.>Can't mention it to IRL friends, since most of my friends are liberals and I don't want them to think I'm a Neo-Nazi, despite me having at least three factors that would get me sent to a concentration camp (white-Hispanic, diagnosed autistic and bisexual).Fuck this Allied Earth.
>>51417101I understand that feel even though I don't know anywhere near enough about Nazi Germany's culture to speak about it.
>>51416790Oh nice, and how about the Eastern Front, where by far most of the fighting took place? How about the entirety of Asia? Or even Africa? Freaking moron.
>>51394142Well if you want to keep everyone comfortable I'd make it dark and dreary and have everybody moping about some kind of slave labor while screaming SS wave machine guns at their starving faces.OR if we're talking about Europe about 6 decades after Nazi occupation, people will have more or less settled down, with some resistance in the eastern bloc (which would not have been decimated and robbed of culture by years of gommunist influece).Basically you'd have the same deal as before, but politicians speak better German and there's no voting, or strip clubs, or Islam (not that uncle A didn't like Islam, they just wouldn't have any reason to leave their happy desert club)
>>51417010Paris and Rome seem to have been Hitler's ideal cities, yes. In his memoirs, Albert Speer also notices this:> ...there was an adolescent feature of Hitler’s approach to architecture:whatever he designed had to be gigantic. His boulevard had to be wider than itscounterpart in Paris. In Linz, he wanted to rebuild a marble frieze to make it thelongest in Europe. The Reich Chancellery in Berlinwas to have a corridor running from the main entrance to his study over a quarterof a mile long. Hitler wanted a visitor to feel he was ‘visiting the master of the world’. Even in his Alpine mountain retreat, the Berghof, he hadto incorporate the largest lowerable window in existence.
>>51394142It would look fucking awesome.Europe would be white, actual space exploration, Atlantropa, good art, good architecture, science without the PC bullshit, society that cares about its fellow man and helps him out - it would be like paradise really. And the best part is, if the Nazis won, then even if they eventually fall, they will have done their job improving human history, there will be no horde of savage peoples to knock at the gates of Europa for invasion, nor will (((they))) ever be able to subvert civilization again.A world where the Nazis won WWII is just strictly better for white people, aka, the West, and for the human species as a whole.
>>51417250A Nazi-ruled Eastern Europe would still be decimated and robbed of its culture, just by Nazis rather than Bolsheviks. Even in the most charitable interepretation of Hitler's views, the Poles and Russians would've been destroyed nations like the Delaware Indians.
>>51417101>while keeping in mind the horrors of Holocaust and the atrocities committed by Josef Mengele. Good goy-I mean guy!
>>51417336- Western Europe would be all-white, yes. Eastern Europe...that's already been discussed.- Atlantropa was the project of Hermann Sorgel, a kooky scientist who ran a one-man campaign. The Nazis had nothing to do with this sea-draining project.- Good art...that's debatable.- Good architecture...well, if you're into gigantic neoclassical stuff. - Science would be fairly good, if they dropped the "relativity theory is Jewish science" thing. The Nazis had a lot of very good scientists, both the US and Soviets used them post-war.- Society that cares about his fellow man - yes, if he belongs to the correct racial community. A world where Nazism won in WW2 would certainly be better for Germans, that's a given. It would be a nightmare for Slavic peoples and Jews, also obvious. It's interesting to speculate about the fate of those countries that fall "in between", though.
>>51401006>1950's are a golden age as the Reich extends it's dominance across Europe, and lays the foundation for a new order. The whole of Europe is rebuilt along german ideas, even by the independent nations>1960's a malaise begins to set in as social problems crop up. Thousands of german youths have turned to a anti-reich, anti-aryan counterculture, and slavs demonstrate for civil rights. A war in the remaining Russian territories to secure newly discovered oil spirals out of control as Chinese funded Red Guard Russians stymie the massive german warmachine in the frozen Urals and Siberia>1970's sees the rise of one a young reformer, the first of a new generation of leaders since the end of the Second World War. He rallies the reich to elect him as Fuhrer with the phrases "Let's get this continent moving again!" and "Ask not what your reich can do for you, ask what you can do for your reich!" He begins the liberalization of the Reich, the restoration of civil rights to slavs. Initiates an ambitious plan to put a man on the moon as a symbol of renewed progress by the Reich. "Why do we choose to go to the moon? Why does Die Mannschaft play Arsenal?"
>>51417594> 1980's sees a detente between the Germans and the Russians/Americans, as well as increased liberalization at home. In the end of the decade, Hitler's "racial barrier" at the Urals gets opened. "Mr. Fuhrer, tear down this wall!" shouts the dynamic American leader.> 1990's - the Third Reich restores civil rights to all, decides that there is no objective basis for who is an "Aryan" or not, and finally elects its first black president. > 2000 - the Third Reich apologizes for the Holocaust.
>>51414709That one scenario you think is plausible is basically the LEAST likely scenario. Roosevelt considered Russia a non-threat at worst and a country to be charmed back into the community of nations at best. Call it deluded if you like, but that's how things played out even before Hitler was a factor. There are several turning points where the Nazis might have won. The initial drive to Moscow was much closer than the allies realized or the Soviets were willing to admit. Stalin himself might have been overthrown and the Russians defeated in the chaos. In the first days of Barbarossa, the Russians and especially Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis as liberators... had the Nazis not been mustache-twirling evil supervillians without being willing to even fake a trace of mercy or respect they might have won (and then shown their true colors). Roosevelt might not have been able to get lend-lease to help the Russians... or might have died, given his delicate health. FDR's vp was terrible (and eventually replaced by Truman in our timeline), we can only guess how stupidly he might have prosecuted WW2. Churchill quashed all talk of an armistice to buy time in the days when Britain stood alone; had he not been prime minister, the Brits might have done that to buy time... not understanding that time helped the Nazis even more. Japan's attack on America might have been later, different, or not at all. Or, Germany might not have declared war on America in solidarity with the Japanese, forcing America to fight a bloody island-hopping campaign FIRST while the Nazis defeated the Russians and sealed the North Atlantic. The German physicists might not have dragged their feet on war technology, or might have seen the possibility of a fission weapon, but either way a nuke delivered by buzzbomb to London might have been war-ending. There is a long list of things that might have handed the war to the Germans. None terribly likely, but history is full of weird chances.
>>51417591ABLOO BLOOcry more, /pol/
>>51394914It's alt-history. You can just say Hitler made good decisions and not bad decisions.
>>51416688They might at that! Rail lines should be of a gauge and width to permit movement of tanks and war materiel. Cars at the time of Hitler were the glorious new technology. Remember also that roads are more flexible, and inflexible mobilization schedules were a key cause of WW1. Remember also that looks were way more important than genuine efficiency. So if huge long highways with few on and off ramps looked better to some party functionary, then that's what you get approval from the Party to build. We can argue about the political side, but economically nazi central planning was every big as self-defeating, corrupt, political, and boneheaded as communist central planning.
>>51417775I'm winning, you're losing.Better abandon that hatred of whites before you're tossed in oven, traitor.
>>51417842>We can argue about the political side, but economically nazi central planning was every big as self-defeating, corrupt, political, and boneheaded as communist central planning.Yes, it was. It was (national) socialism, after all.
>>51417919sob sob sob
>>51417745>1940's US goes to war with Japan after several violent provocations, particularly the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Unperturbed by the war in Europe due it's end before the US can intervene, Roosevelt leads the US to annihilate Japan and conquer the western Pacific Ocean. Due to the collapse of the Soviet Union the US and rehabilitated Japanese army units are able to destroy the Peoples Liberation Army of China. Korea and a nationalist China emerge as independent, nationalist republics friendly to the USA, and competing with the Reich for the remains of the Soviet Empire.>British colonies are still released, but communism is less popular than German style Fascism, with a less authoritarian and more industrial bent.>1950's the Culture War between the USA and the Reich begins with German investment in radio, films and television that subtly and sometimes openly attack US culture and democracy. The USA fears to be losing its status as a "shining city upon a hill" that all the world looks to when the Reich launches the worlds first satellite in 1952. A space race begins, which the German have an immense lead in. However, the US exportation of popular culture is more popular than that of the Reich. Young aryans from Amsterdam to Konigsberg wear jeans, listen to exotic jazz and talk about Marlon Brando and Rear Window. American culture is even more popular in East Asia, especially in Japan, China and Indochina, where hundreds of thousands of US troops are stationed>Reformers in Germany's Ministry of Culture are worried that state planning is hampering the ability of Aryanism to spread beyond the borders of the Reich. Their concerns are noted but ignored as non-aryan culture is irrelevant except in it's elimination
>>51394142If I was to run this I would go with a couple of assumptions.Japan never attacked the US. Instead focused on China and the suez canal.America remained isolationist.War in the east happened; and is still on going. Soviet Russians and Chinese moaist fight a war supplied via American companies wanting raw resources (think modern day africa, weapons for diamonds, gold, food, oil etc.).Occupied countries dissestablishd and separated/ combined into manageable independent Colonial governorships.Mass forced eugenics and migration has moved populations in the colonial areas east and west French to Eastern Europe slavs to France etc.England still at war, and currently suffering from embargo.Canada and the other colonies fending off aggression. India has become independent but as multiple different countries.South Africa suffered a boer uprising and while not part of the 3rd riech it is closely tied to it in Africa where British, Belgium and French rule is being removed and replaced via Italian and German aggression.The US and Germany both have nuclear capabilities. First drop was on Moscow via v2 to start German Russian war.
>>51418088>You will never be a Soviet stormtrooper raping a German maiden on top of the corpse of her late husband-to-be while she cries for mercy in her incomprehensible goobledygook language, then forcibly marry her and force her to take care of your spawn, slowly watching every shred of hope and joy fade from her eyes until she's nothing more than a walking corpse>You will never teach your children to hate the German, including their own mother, as if he were the devil himself>You will never come home from a leisurely stroll through the park to find your wife has hanged herself>You will never propose to give her a funeral and be interrupted by your own son, who says a funeral is more than a German deserves
>>51417919Ahhh, finally the /pol/tards show up to shitpost in what's been a pretty decent thread so far. Farage wouldn't give you the time of day, loser. And Trump would happily see you have a little "accident" that lands you face down bleeding out in an alley, or face down in your bunk pleasuring your cellmate with what's left of your rectum... also bleeding out.
>>51418218lol, haven't heard of any Soviet soldiers forcing German women into marriage...normally, the war bride thing happens when the conqueror is richer than the conquered people. That wasn't really the case with the Soviets, who were a lot poorer than the Germans. But yeah, a lot of violent raping on top of fathers' corpses, and lot of German husbands getting cuckolded by a whole platoon and hanging themselves. Not really a pleasant topic - although, to be fair, it's still more kind than what the Germans would've done if they won.
>>51418429>lol, haven't heard of any Soviet soldiers forcing German women into marriageLet me dream bruh, it's a lot more sadistic than just putting a bullet in her head after you're done.
>>51394142Well, something interesting is that some of the Nazis were pretty interested in Islam. They thought it was more compatible with Nazism than Christianity. I believe it was Himmler thought that Muslims would make better soldiers due to their belief in martyrdom in combat, and organized Muslim SS units.Assuming this idea started to get implemented on a wide scale, you could see something interesting with what's essentially a "Nazi Jannissary Corps" of fanatics indoctrinated into a Nazified form of Islam. Maybe that's one "path to usefulness" for all of the semi-untermenschen who aren't being exterminated outright. Strong children are taken and indoctrinated at a young age, taught to think of themselves as simultaneously elite and servile, the iron shield that protects their Germanic masters. They're usually sent to the frontlines in whatever continuous rapacious wars are going on, as their casualties are less important than those of "pure" German units. In the continual Social Darwinist struggle of conflicting Nazi government wings, controlling and influencing the Jannissaries might be one of the key factors to ensuring your will is made manifest.
>>51418872Intriguing. I can also totally see the Nazi Muslim Janissaries instituting a coup against the Reich in 2040.
>>51418872Whoa, that's a weird twist. Actually, it's also weird but true that some online Aryan supremacists are actually Arabs. I don't know what the attraction is. Maybe the antisemitism? But yeah there's this weird Nazi/Arab nationalism crossover. And, no, before you ask I know a lot of Iranians (ie actual real Aryans) and none give a flying fuck about Hitler even when they're happy Persian nationalists. I guess they're confident enough in their historical identity that they don't need to borrow someone else's. This thread has some wild, far-out ideas. Definitely have to try some if I do infinite worlds.
>>51418872It's worth noting that the version of Islam that Hitler admired was basically what you see in Lawrence of Arabia, not the modern Iranian or Saudi theocratic state versions of Islam.Islam in the pre-oil Middle East was mostly about being a warrior loyal to tribe and family. The actual religious aspects of it were of trivial importance to the average Arab. Plus, it was heavily romanticized in pop-culture depictions in the west, in a way essentially comparable to the unhistorical 19th century version of the Viking ideal. So Hitler sees these mysterious badasses in the desert who hate Jews, love war, are devoted to their own people, and believe in a strict code of honor. It's understandable how that would appeal to him. There's no real reason to believe that a modern Nazi regime would be tolerant of what Islam has turned into in the late 20th and early 21st centuries.
>>51419057Lead by an alternate universe Vladimir Putin, castrated in childhood and raised to serve Allah and the ubermenschen? A master spy and administrator who overthrows his corrupt, indolent German masters? And then have protestant North America and Catholic (but Islam-curious) south America as the last bastions?
>>51419058Naturally you'll have a nazi europe with highspeed rail, electric interurbans, subways and bike usage with comparable rates to modern Netherlands, and minimal urban automobile usage, yes?
>>51417758To be honest, actual history has a lot of things going horribly right for Germany to do as well as they did. But honestly a few more flukes and things could have been different.
>>51419397Uhhhhhh.... no. I think the thread consensus is that like all forms of socialism, national socialism starts with a rush of very big, PR-friendly public works projects, and then inexorably sinks into corruption, inefficiency, and incompetence. I especially like this guy's idea: >>51417594>>51417745Ie familiar enough that the changes are really creepy.
>>51418218You're a despicable subhuman.
>>51419175You can sterilize them without castrating them. Castration might work favorably for choirboys but it's more of a hindrance for anyone raised to be a fighter, no matter what Game of Thrones tells you.
>>51418473Heh. Have you considered treating the Germans honorably, helping them rebuild, all the while looking at them with disgust and horror at their crimes? Having those same conquerors selflessly stand vigil for half a century to defend them from enemies who you treated with unspeakable barbarity and who now want bloody justice? Having them live with themselves as the moral lepers of the world, an embarrassment to their own children? An example to the world of naked evil? Realizing that you were wrong, that your victims were better than you, and that you're almost irredeemably damned?
>>51419626Yeah I meant chemically. Though getting completely gelded and having to take hormone supplements might add to the angst factor. If you want someone to be a real fanatic eager to sacrifice himself, try making him a permavirgin.
>>51395212By the end of the Purges most of the Jews were expunged from Stalin's regime, so we already kind of know how well Russia holds up without it: pretty fucking well.
>>51405455No, it's just that to maintain regional power and global relevance, the EU (conceptually, not in practice, obviously right now the EU itself is a shitshow) is really the best way to go.Keep in mind that neither of those goals is necessarily a positive or a negative, but if those are your goals, you really only have federation as a real option.
>>51417804I'm not sure that there's any chain of decisions that lead Hitler's Germany to victory in WW2. Just different paths to defeat. How's this one? > FDR dies. Henry Wallace becomes President.> Wallace stays strictly neutral, basically a tacit supporter of Molotov Ribbentrop> Britain falls> Operation Barbarossa begins> Opposition from antiwar movement to entering the war to save the Soviets. > Moscow falls, Soviets forced completely over the Urals. > Pearl Harbor comes late, but accompanied by the German Navy surprise attacking ports on the American east coast and the US Navy. > Philippines falls, soon after so does Hawaii. > America under long siege, suffers repeated party switches and schizo foreign policy> Germans finally invent the nuke> America surrenders and becomes puppet state> American Holocaust begins> By the 70s, the world is officially declared judenrein> 2014: thanks to computers, moral exhaustion, and Japanese genetic testing techniques, the last isolated Jewish holdouts are exterminated> With God's Chosen People now extinct, the Age of Damnation begins> Karmic plague spoils, corrupts, and undoes every human endeavor> An Italian caldera opens up, swallowing the Vatican whole and plunging the world into an ice age. A meteor annihilates Mecca, destroying the world's energy supply just when it's most needed> Strange mutations plague newborns> With no spiritual force to stop it, at last the Demonic Path takes on physical reality. > Demons pour out; a full invasion from Below> governments collapse as word finally gets out that the demons aren't killing their victims, but doing something much, much worse.
>>51419903If you mean out of positions of power, you're right. If you mean dead, then you're wrong. Stalin died before the Doctors Plot purge went anywhere. Jews suffered harassment, but that's it.
>>51417101There's no real shame in being a futurist.
>>51420146>everything is going good, world objectively becoming a better place>BLOO BLOO KIKES ARE MAGIC!
>>51420192I did mean out of power, yes. Good thing to bring up, though.Do we have any figures on the economic impact of creating the concentration camps? How much in terms of fiscal resources could they have freed up by not making them, and instead keeping suppression at an ideological and police level?
>>51418429>>51418473 This was actually a fact, hundreds of thousands of Germans were removed to Russia to "work" to repay the Soviet Union.
>>51420323Nothing better than guesses and declarations. If you're going to measure it empirically, the problem is that you only get to do it one way, so you never really know the counterfactual. The Nazi work camps are believed to have been pretty much useless or worse. Partly that's Nazi corruption/incompetence, partly it's that German industry required materials machined to higher tolerances, and partly it's that the work camps were never seen as real economic assets they way they were for the Soviets, Chinese, or others. They were run more to be misery for their victims than to maximize production. In general, slave labor isn't super efficient, and as you go from early to late industrial revolution, the skill/motivation factor becomes decisive. Gulags turn skilled, at least somewhat motivated citizens into unwilling unskilled slave laborers. Because you can't trust someone to use any skills they have. The stuff prisoners can do will always be the first and most easily made obsolete by machinery and (later) automation. Plus, it's not a resource you can easily reassign as social needs change. If you want a hint about how bad concentration camps are as economic assets, take a look at what Deng Xiaoping did for China in the 80s. He liberalized a very narrow strip of China, and the growth there fed massive standard of living improvements for the whole country. Now the army's gulags and the prison camps are all that's left of communist economics there... And both are big black holes for money, they have to be lavishly subsidized to stay afloat. The big thing is this. Go into Excel and calculate 1.01, 1.02, 1.03... 1.06, each on its own column, each taken to the 50th power (50 years of compounding). That's how much the country's economy grows by over that period, and taken per capita, is how much your standard of living goes up. See what a difference even 1% difference in growth rate makes? Gulags are a dead end economically.
>>51394142I had an idea for how the Nazis could, although not win the war, at least knock the Russians out: Instead of actually sane people deciding that Communists later is better than Nazis now, the people designing Lend-Lease think they can use it to keep the market-capitalists alive while letting the fascists and commies choke each other to death. So, they don't lend to Russia.The little extra breathing room this gives the Germans let's them take Moscow, though not a lot further, which breaks Russian morale and most likely kills a large amount of the Soviet government. The USSR breaks up into rump states, most of which are puppets of the Germans or anarchists done with governments altogether, the Germans turn their attention elsewhere, though still have to leave a ton of men behind to keep it occupied.However, with the Americans having entered the war by that time (Assuming Pearl Harbor still happens, which it probably would), Britain really can't fall due to it being so heavily guarded by the Allies, and none of the Axis really have a hope of touching anyone in America, as basically no European power has that ability due mostly just to distance and no friendly port to be based out of without conquering it first.Not too sure where to take the idea from there. My thoughts were the Pacific theater becomes a bigger focus, probably with ideas of occupying Japan and helping/occupying China and going through Russia to get at the Germans being flung around, or invading up through the Alps in Italy.
>>51421096>The little extra breathing room this gives the Germans let's them take Moscow, though not a lot further, which breaks Russian morale and most likely kills a large amount of the Soviet government.That's stupid. The overwhelming majority of Lend-Lease happened in 43 and onward. Its impact was how it enabled Soviet large scale counterattacks, not help them hold on to the initial rush.
>>51421115Fair. Just a stupid idea I was throwing around.
>>51409901Europe becoming an Islamic Caliphate is a pretty big and formerly unimaginable backfire.
>>51417758Hitler and Heisenberg both didn't see the value of nuclear weapons. Hitler wasn't awed by it compared to other flashier wonderweapons since the effects weren't immediately visible and the description sounded ludicrous at the time ("a thousand tons of TNT, the atmosphere might light on fire, etc"). Heisenberg and his team didn't accomplish much. They had a team of like 10 guys working in some basement. Whether it was because Heisenberg was a theoretical physicist and didn't really know engineering, or because he actually was anti Nazi (see: his meeting with Bohr) is unclear. Either way, the Nazis didn't have the scientific capability or the economic commitment to create a fission weapon before 1950. Compared to how much the US pumped into Los Alamos, with all the superstar physicists and engineers there, the possibility of a German nuclear bomb is one of the greatest myths of the war
>>51421285It's definitely something I'll have to try. "Oops Jews were the real master race we doomed" was funny and unexpected, too. This has been a pretty damn good thread guys. A few /pol/shits notwithstanding, people had great ideas and kept the whole thing interesting and mostly on topic. Nice job, gents.
>>51420742>heh Nazis were so dumb, those DEATH CAMPS weren't remotely sensibleWhat a tremendously stupid person you must be.
>>51420742Fascinating. It would seem that literally enslaving the slavs is a bad idea, or at least less productive then propaganda-ing them into compliance. Third Reich economic planning would be much easier if one could back off one annihilating the slavs.
>>51421380No argument there. It's just a case of yet another what-if that might have driven the war the other way. Hitler murdering and driving into exile with his enemies such an overwhelming number of his best scientists is a monument to "Oft evil will shall evil mar."It would have been even more ironic if the fighting in Europe had still been in doubt when the Bomb was completed. The very people he drove out of his country and declared a war of extermination on would have been responsible for turning Nazi strongholds into radioactive parking lots.
>>51421493Anon was asking about the labor camps' productivity. Not the death camps, which of course were a straightforward waste of resources that generated nothing in return. Point being that command economies of any kind are bad news economically, regardless of the ideology that they wrap themselves in. The way for the third Reich to have enjoyed a good long term economy would have been to abandon racism and employ their human resources productively, or better yet ditch national socialism altogether and use free markets. Even a little extra growth over a long time results in vast differences in standards of living and overall economic might. The Germans learned this lesson quickly, the Russians took a generation longer before reality caught up to them. China took the hint and became a great power again.
>>51421666Well, Free markets are on the decline again now. The cycle continues.
Would it be possible for Britain to coexist with Germany in the event of a German victory over the USSR? I can see all of Europe falling in line, save for the Brits, who agree to a peace deal since neither side is willing to pay the cost of killing each other. From that point the Continent becomes Nazi-EU, fairly banal save for an international effort to hunt communists, and dependent upon French, German and Italian Fascism to keep the rest of Europe from drifting away. The Italians give up on conquering the Balkans once Germany makes it clear that war is a waste of time, and everyone goes along merrily colonizing places outside Europe: The Germans colonize Poland, Ukraine and Western Russia; France pushes far harder to keep Algeria and succeeds in creating enough patriotism to crush revolution there, while still losing Vietnam; The Italians fuck around in North Africa but over time stabilize their colonies. Turkey receives funding from the Triple Alliance to keep radical Islam at bay, making it an honorary partner to the Triple Alliance, while acting as their ally in the Middle East. I'm not sure what would happen to French and British mandates in the Middle East. Does anyone have a recommendation? This area of the world has been skipped over.>>51421439Please make liberal use of the crazy ostentatious images of Berlin in this thread>>51421666Well, Death camps sorta generated a return by allowing controlled alteration of demographics, which was a goal in itself for the Nazis
>>51421737>Would it be possible for Britain to coexist with Germany in the event of a German victory over the USSR? Not with Churchill and Hitler. But if Hitler dies early of cancer or something, and the Tories lose an election, then maybe a peace is "plausible enough" for RPG setting purposes. >>51421691It's the natural cycle: free markets can't outcompeted command economies in the political/persuasion arena, but command economies can't outcompeted free markets in the standard of living/economic might arena. >>51421737Whether the Nazis felt that what they got from the camps was politically worth it or not, economically they were a black hole that had an unequivocally negative impact on productivity.
>>51421666>muh free market
>>51394265Israel does nothing of the sort, the Palestinians have illegally occupied our land and we are simply getting it back.
>>51395825Are you all women born after 1990?**It's pretty ingrained in most people now, even me and Ex would plan this sort of stuff. "This many year until we have kids so we can do cool stuff, this many years until we get married so we don't waste too much money when we can't afford it"We're all about experiences now, the "I wanna settle down, have a house and a kid" culture is dead.
>>51411837It's by the same dude and Black earth was written later. I think I'll manage.
>>51422763Somewhere somehow, a tear is shed for Western civilization.
>>51408494>Joke is made>Laught track fills a space between more speaking while viewers also laugh>View no longer laughs over the next line>Also adds "more" laughter to the roomThose reasons seem servicable.
>>51422763One of the only things I want after graduating college is a wife and two kids. This worriesme
>>51423214They're still out there, but most university level men and women have much higher aspirations for themselves than people generations ago. "Settle down age" is WAY higher than it used to be.Easier access to education also puts more people into that category. People like me from a low income family, go back a few generations and I would've been slogging my ass off at a 9-5 job, going to the pub after work and chasing poon. Now I'm an autist with a degree.
>>51417281>I swear, Albert, it really is this big.>If you say so, mein Führer.
>>51417101>white-Hispanic>concentration campAmerican education
>it's 2017>people are still assblasted about the nazisLiterally why?
>>51423787People are still assblasted about Napoleon. Shit, people are still assblasted about Julius Caesar, I don't think it's a huge stretch for people to be assblasted about something in living memory.
>>51423821Who the fuck would be assblasted about Napoleon? Bongs? Russians?
>>51423821>People are still assblasted about Napoleon.
>>51400493>not a timeline where the Bosnian pyramids are captured before activation and the khaganate is saved from autism>hwan empire collapses under its own weight, post-war world sees an expansion of the psionic arts and the nephilim never leave earthA perfect world was in our grasp
>>51422763The settle down age has gone up, but in my experience all the girls in my age group loudly said that they wouldn't ever have kids... Right up until they settled down and had them. I've got two, with a third on the way. The few who did stick to their guns all the way to menopause (party girls and political radicals) seem kind of bitter about it. The subcultures who have kids very quickly supplant the coastal elites who don't. Don't panic. There's plenty of chances for you to have a family.
>>51423821Hell, Purim is coming up. We're still assblasted about Haman from 2500+ years ago. And yet here we are, two millennia, and they're busily koshering the White House kitchen in preparation for four years of MAGA. Real life, as in alternative timelines, is filled with strange chances.
>>51421380>Hitler wasn't awed by it compared to other flashier wonderweapons since the effects weren't immediately visible and the description sounded ludicrous at the timeThat might be a side effect of Hitlers WW1 experience.He might understand that even if the Fireball is 1km wide, the only thing you gain is the need to use fewer bombs, and some better bunker penetration.Also the logistics of firing it is a still a nightmare, which only got fixed post war improved V12 rockets
>>51394142My guess like this.Fatherland.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvR15G8yEhg