Previous thread: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/48185231/So last time a bunch of anons came together and made a cyberpunk setting set in 2077 where the Japanese economic bubble never burst. Here are some of the details for the world>Japan is a major economic power in East Asia>The South Koreans won the Korean War>China is split by the Orange River with the communist People's Republic of China in the north and the Republic of China in the south>The USSR has expanded to the Middle East and North Africa, taking over areas such as Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, ect...>After WWII, the Jews were relocated to Ethiopia and fought a series of wars with the local Muslim population>Germany is a major producer of tanks, luxury cars, trains, and firearms>American corps have established many operations in the Banana Republics, exploiting them for resources and drugs>Heavier reliance on sustainable and nuclear energy>Some technologies in this new future are: robots for recreational use (as well as some experimental military ones), mechanical transplants, lab-grown meats, exoskeletion suits, smartguns, and augmentationsHere is the google doc for those that want to make suggestions for the world:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xVFbFnROjO4Tz1YOoX9SaiYO-PxBdNR9IBCd_1cCcjU/editNow let's start off with some questions:>What's going on in Europe? How are the French and British reacting to the new strength of Germany?>Let's figure out some corps. What are some examples of Japanese corps? American? German? Russian? Chinese?>How far removed is South Africa from the Muslim-Russian struggle in the northern regions of the continent?>Does the US occupation of Japan end earlier or later than it does in our own history?>How common are augmentations?>Does Japan only dominate Pan-Pacific trade or does their influence reach to Europe and the Near East? What about Germany?Pic is a map of the current borders of East Asia (with Japan in corner)
>>48261041I kinda do not like the how China is split up. I think RoC should just stay in Taiwan. Why? It would led to a far, far weaker China for my suggestion. So you have Russia expanding in Asia and Middle East, which China somewhat regards as its sphere of influence. China would absolutely hate this and probably fight some wars with the USSR over this. We can make it so that the wars cost both the USSR and China economically and socially. We can make it so that the Republic of China (Taiwan) has made revolutionary groups backed by Korea, Japan, and the United States of America. I feel like this can led to way more interesting social, political and economical impacts throughout the setting. For example on the news we can hear about "freedom fighters/terrorist" bombing some government building in Beijing. Plus it can led a war between Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and United States to restore the Republic of China. Or that can be the back story behind that.
>>48262039The revolutionary groups would be based in People's Republic
>>48262039So during the Chinese Civil War, the Communists fought the Nationalists but couldn't force them to surrender so the Nationalists sought refuge in Taiwan and built a new government there? I do think though that the RoC would try to retake some mainland cities, possibly the nearby Hong Kong. The only thing I don't get is why the majority of China (which is communist) would be fighting Russia (a major superpower). If it was the RoC with capitalist backing, I could imagine that though. I think the RoC would be too busy with the PRC to make attacks on Russia though.
>>48262133If you study Cold War history you would know after the Sino-Soviet split the Chinese and Soviets had small border wars. In this setting's timeline these border wars ended up the same way but both countries still vastly disliked each other over these. So later on, when the Soviets expand, the Chinese feel threaten by this. The Chinese build up their military along the Sino-Soviet border. Some incident happened which sparked into another border war that then quickly escalated into a full blown war after talks broke down. The Chinese were able to capture a decent amount of land and the Soviets countered attack. The war is in a stalemate. I'll make another comment about the social issues and Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and United States role.
>>48262227>after the Sino-Soviet split the Chinese and Soviets had small border warsWow did not know this. Thank you.
>>48261041This map is just full of shit and so detatched from any political reality it's not even funny.
>>48262133>>48262227To make it simple the Nationalists will be the revolutionaries that Taiwan/Republic of China backs.During the war between USSR and the Chinese, Taiwan inserts propaganda (can make a cool cyberpunk quest) into the Chinese public. The propaganda shows that the Chinese government lied about things about the war and Chinese troops committing war crimes. This cause Nationalist groups pop up and start rebeling against China. They bomb, take out top officials and other acts of terror. The Chinese government calls the Nationalist terrorist and massacres a decent chunk. Taiwan, Korea, Japan, United States, ANZAC, and the UK decides that China has gone too far and intervenes. In the West, there's resentment due to apparent imperialistic actions but is positively accepted in Japan, Taiwan, and Korea. Anyways the Blue Dragons (Japan, Taiwan, Korea, US, ANZAC, and the UK) helped the Nationalist to capture what is shown on the map. During this time the Chinese Government signs a peace treaty with the Soviets. The peace treaty reverted territories back to preborder war but China is forced to pay the Soviets. Anyways, the Civil War and the War with the Soviets greatly weakened China.
>>48262365OP here. Didn't make the map, it was just posted in the previous thread by another anon. What would you change about it?
>>48262365I wrote out a decent explanation in these two posts>>48262227>>48262415
>>48261041What's the point of this alternate CP2020 timeline? The original CP2020 is already an alternate timeline in which Japan is quite powerful.
>>48262415This is a great explaination. So to sum up:>Chinese Civil War splits China in two. The RoC is forced into Taiwan as a result>The PRC strengthens their northern border due to fears of Russian invasion due to their expansion in the Middle East>War breaks out and grinds to a halt>Taiwan/RoC inserts propaganda in the Chinese public to disrupt the public and sow distrust. This works and Nationalist groups pop up in the PRC and commit acts of terror (possibly led by Taiwanese agents)>Communist China retaliates by purging many Nationalists. This causes other countries (namely Taiwan, Korea, Japan, the US, and the UK) to intervene>The intervention garners a bad reputation in the US but other East Asian countries celebrate it.>The capitalist forces push back the PRC and recapture parts of mainland China for the RoC>This leads to a peace treaty with the Soviets and the PRC is forced to pay the USSR, which in turn leads it to a weakened state.Only question is what Germany is doing during this engagement. Do they involve themselves?
>>48262418Everything. It literally makes no fucking sense.>>482624331) You've got united Korea. A SERIOUS stretch already, but probably the only thing possible in the entire map2) You have ROC that magically lands on the continent and takes over entire south of China - HOW THE FUCK you even imagine that? ROC was pushed away, because it lacked any support from rural population. After a generation under Mao people would fucking fight ROC soldiers with stones. Not to mention such "minor" inconvinience as in entire ROC population being smaller than People's Liberation Army or ROC not having any fleet capable of going back.3) Korea is united and under ROC control. By means of magic, I guess?4) Korea, under ROC, a relatively flat peninsuala, separated from rest of ROC, is not taken over by Communists just by throwing shitload of people on it, not to mention actual tactics.5. Communists and Soviets are on war, they lose entire souther underbelly (the fucking granary of the nation) and somehow they not only still can feed their population, but stop full-scale Soviet invasion that would be in case of such magic inamment6. Rest of the world does absolutely NOTHINGThis is so fucking detatched from any plausability or just basic eco-political reality fucking Twilight 2013 starts sounding reasonable by comparision.
>>48262442>not trying to make a different cyberpunk setting with some fa/tg/uyscome on anon
>>48262532>I don't understand international politics: The Post
>>48262542Not him, but the original CP2020 setting was good as it was and now is a fun retro-future concept.This thread is just bunch of random bullshit.
>>48262539Not the anon you are replying to but:>Korea is united and under ROC controlWrong. The South Koreans won the Korean War.>Korea, under ROC, a relatively flat peninsuala, separated from rest of ROC, is not taken over by Communists just by throwing shitload of people on it, not to mention actual tactics.See my previous comment.>6. Rest of the world does absolutely NOTHINGBut they do do something.Nice try shiposter-kun
>>48262569>random bullshitSuch as?
>>482625391) Not a complete stretch if you rewrite the Korean War history for the setting.2) It's in a fictional setting somewhat based on reality plus you missed the part that a good chunk of the population are nationalist.3) We can write it so there's a pan Asian NATO treaty mostly led by Japan and backed by the US. Of course the powers are different than NATO.4) What? Korea, with support, can handle and protect itself.5) The war ends in a stalemate and the treaty reverts land back to the original owners 6) US, Commonwealth, and the Pan Asia Alliance does something. I quickly whipped up an explanation that can be added onto and fixed.
>>48262532Well. Is the Warsaw Pac still around or nope? If yes, the Soviets would get support from Poland, Czech, and E. Germany. If nope, I'm not too entirely sure. Maybe we can write it so that Germany gives the Pan Asia alliance some assistance.
>>48261041>fought wars with local muslim populationyou know that Ethiopia is 80% christian right?
>>48262744My bad, just mixed the two up after looking at the archive.
>>48262701I don't know much about East European history so I don't know. I was imagining the Germans would give the Pan Asian Alliance assistance, though this would all depend on when the conflict takes place.
>>48262039In the first thread (which was actually just extrapolation from a random "what-if"/"Explain X" question >>48185231) it was figured that the Chinese civil war was a stalemate and that the PRC was friendly with the Soviets in this timeline, in a not-quite-a-puppet way - there's no Sino-Soviet splitThe RoC wasn't amazingly hot either, but they had a lot of economy in producing cheap copies of Japan's commercial tech
>>48262921Fucking this. Thank god someone from the old thread is here. god knows how terrible I am at explaination. Wish more people would just read the old thread instead of complaining.
>>48262921Hmm, so China is more like a North/South Korea and Vietnam setup. In my explanation I was somewhat trying to make things a little more interesting in the present day setting. Although my explanation would assert the Pan Asia Alliance and the West as the world powers which can make the setting a little more bland.
>>48263108I honestly like the set up that was presented by >>48262921 mainly because it allows for more international politics and posturing without any need for multinational alliances and treaties. Also makes relations more tense I think, what with the interactions with the Koreans, their Japanese suppliers, the RoC (whom the Koreans support) and the PRC (who have a tenuous relationship with the Russians)
>>48262973It is 250+ replies, and you didn't even link it.>>48263158I feel I should point out that the OP map doesn't have the RoC and Korea supporting each other, just on the same side.But thanks, I agree that having the two Chinas both as lesser powers supported by major ones (not that they're happy about it) makes for a more interesting proposition
>>48263502OP linked the archive of it. But I get what you mean about the long reply chain.
>>48263502Sorry if it didn't come across clearly but I think what the map is trying to convey is that they are both blue/capitalist.
Are we not going to talk about how the flying fuck Japan's economy didn't collapse?
>>48262365>>48262539>>48262555Holy shit the amount of fucking autistic sperglords in this thread is extraordinary. I never knew people could be this autistic about a fucking pretend setting.
>>48262583>Lack of basic logic is goodKill yourself>>48262652>I quickly whipped up That's the main problem, you idiot. Instead of thinking long and hard about setting that makes even a vestige of sense, you whipped bullshit out of your ass within few minutes and you are apparently amazed it doesn't make sense.
>>48267087You contribute to the setting then, you autistic sperg
>>48261041>What's going on in Europe? How are the French and British reacting to the new strength of Germany?France never got over their Gaullism stage and have incorporated many of its overseas territories into France proper. It's mostly unconcerned with Germany as it realizes that it doesn't have to economic strength to compete against Titans like Japan, the USSR and America. Britain remains relevant only in its political influence via the UN. The actual country never went through the resurgence of the 1980's, so its national industries continued to decline until they were made near irrelevant as British Industry simply collapsed under the strain of extensive subsidies, and continues to exist as shackles that slow British economic growth. London is still an important city, but the UK remains very weary of German industrial might and knows that it could easily be economically crippled by any of the major powers. With this economic stagnation and little hope for the future, the British youth increasely resort to crime.
>>48268812>against Titans like Japan, the USSR and America.I like that name for the world superpowers. France stepping away (like I imagine many other European countries would) is a realistic choice as well.>Britain remains relevant only in its political influence via the UNI can see the British government trying to exert power but failing to under the strain of the superpowers such as Russia and Germany (don't know if Germany would be a part of the UN, Japan definately would though)>the UK remains very weary of German industrial might and knows that it could easily be economically crippled by any of the major powers.Makes for an interesting dynamic how the UK (which used to be one of the world's main players) is now reduced to one that is heavily reliant on German/Japanese/American goods for support, especially the expansionist USSR moving into the Middle East.>British youth increasingly resort to crime.London turning into a hot bed for crime makes for an interesting setting, especially with the Russians trying to incite rebellion in Greece.I would imagine Spain would more or less follow the French's lead though.
>>48268937Spain would also probably faulter, potentially never democratizing as the fear of foreign influence is much too great. Maybe even become a hotzone or seperatists in this timeline (Spanish Civil war 2, electric boogaloo?). Ireland may or may not be united. Depends on how weak we want to make the UK.
>>48269104>Maybe even become a hotzone or seperatistsI don't see there being separatists though (unless we were gonna go the anti-capitalist/anti-christian route). I'm the wrong person to ask this though, since I'm more of an asian history guy.It honestly could go either way with Ireland. They could take this opportunity to split away from England or stick with them for strength in numbers as well as a united Britain. I honestly would like them to stick together.
>>48261041>How far removed is South Africa from the Muslim-Russian struggle in the northern regions of the continent?South Africa is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. American and Japanese companies basically control the country, which is a post-apartheid market liberal state. Its parliament is still mostely white and the current PM is actually the son of a Japanese immigrant. Its valued for its mineral wealth but otherwise holds little importance. >Does the US occupation of Japan end earlier or later than it does in our own history?Probably a little bit longer to the point where Japanese society was really influenced by American venture capitalism that would allow it to grow so large in the first place. It would also justify feelings of uneasiness as a long term occupation would hammer the point home to the Japanese that a moments weakness could result in its further defeat and reoccupation from a predatory US or USSR.>>48269195Spain had basque seperatists throughout the 80's-90's. At worst, we could see an independent Basque Country.
>>48269356>the current PM is actually the son of a Japanese immigrant.Congrats on your election..er...Mr. Yonazawa?>Japanese society was really influenced by American venture capitalism that would allow it to grow so large in the first placeThis makes a lot of sense actually. A longer occupation would also justify a more nationalistic country (due to anti-American sentiment) and in response more trust in the JSDF would form. Maybe a rewriting of their constitution would come sooner.
>>48261041>How common are augmentations?Common and cheap enough that you can get a couple basic ones if you're solidly middle class. The lower-middle could maybe afford one basic ones if they're lucky, and the absolutely impoverished might result to illegal, jury-rigged augmentations performed by unlicensed specialists. Anything potentially dangerous is of course extremely restricted and is outright banned to any non-active military personal. However, the Yakuza have connections that they can use to their advantage to obtain some...higher quality equipment. >>48269431>Mr. Yonezawa I rike it.
>>48269487So the military has access to augs? Wouldn't this cause a huge scandal/controversy in the international community, especially among communities like the UN and the Pan Asian Alliance?
>>48261041>After WWII, the Jews were relocated to Ethiopia and fought a series of wars with the local Muslim population>>Germany is a major producer of tanks, luxury cars, trains, and firearms>>American corps have established many operations in the Banana Republics, exploiting them for resources and drugsTransplanting history a hundred years into the future does not make for the most intriguing setting
Also what's the status of Brazil, considering it's the country with the largest Japanese diaspora. Do we see a real dominance of the political scene by Japanese Brazilians? Do they migrate back to Japan en masse?
>>48269555I would imagine some would try to become Japanese citizens again. Considering the strength of America, some would try their luck with some connections with Japanese corps or risk being laborers to the Americans. Possibly some would try their hands at politics but only the ones hand-picked by the Americans would make it into office.
>>48269528Most augs would just provide logistical support. Stuff like built in night vision or enhanced hearing. Any explicitly offensive would be barred under the Geneva convention, but im sure they can find a loop hole in it somewhere to exploit.
>>48269531I think there was a mixup, in the previous thread we had discussed that Eritrea would be the place were the Jews would be relocated to, not Ethiopia.
>>48269603I think strictly offensive or physical proformance-enhancing augs would be developed by security/cybernetics corps and used by them, just not by the national military. The Yakuza would be a prime example of this. They would have military-grade augs that would allow them to preform better than most JSDF troops but as a result they would be much more expensive to maintain/buy as well as smaller in numbers due to the nature of the Yakuza.
>>48269487Prime Minister Tashiro YonezawaI can already see it now.
>>48269632That makes sense. Maybe just the USSR uses them for combat troops, and that they're effective during combat but are also really bad for the poor sods health (not that it would matter, always more Tovarisch to die for Soviet Motherland). This disgusts the Japanese government so much that they are very careful what kind of augmentations are distributed, even among active personel. Offensive Augmentations could be Japanese knockoffs of Soviet versions (or authentic Soviet versions that somehow managed to be successfully smuggled in by a sheer miracle of incompetent border security).
>>48269841>that they're effective during combat but are also really bad for the poor sods health (not that it would matter, always more Tovarisch to die for Soviet Motherland).This is very good for flavor reasons (and also because it would retain the Russian "die for the Motherland" montra).>Offensive Augmentations could be Japanese knockoffs of Soviet versionsI see that more of a Chinese things than a Japanese thing though. I imagine the Japanese would be all about creating their own augs (even offensive ones) while still keeping them humane as to differentiate themselves from their Soviet counterparts. Again, smuggling strictly better Soviet combat augs would be more possible through the PRC border than the Japanese border, especially when they are so far away from the Russian heartland.
>>48261041>>Does Japan only dominate Pan-Pacific trade or does their influence reach to Europe and the Near East? What about Germany?So far, they dominate in Asia, most of Africa, parts of Europe, South America, and present a major threat to U.S. manufacturing. Their (somewhat) friendly rivalry with the U.S. economically would be a sharp contrast to their quite hostile relationship with Russian expansion.
>>48270044>Japanese passive aggressiveness vs American straight forward aggressive competitionMakes for a very interesting dynamic.>most of AfricaWhy? I thought Russia was expanding/a dominating force in the Middle East/North Africa. If anything, it should be them, not the Japanese. And if not the Russians, at the very least the Germans.>parts of EuropeI can imagine Germany being more of a presence than Japan.>South AmericaMakes sense, considering the Brazilian-Japanese population there. Would be a fierce competition with the Americans though.I do think that Japanese goods would still be popular in America. Especially in the present day.
>>48270131Africa just because it's a region that has resources that are very important to exploit. I was thinking more South-Central Africa where you can see the influenceAnd in Europe, they would be trying to sway European nations to invest in their country and the region in general. Think the AIIB.
>>48270226>I was thinking South Central AfricaThat would be intresting. The length is a biy of a stretch but if there are India-based corps that are part of a Japanese conglomerate I could see it. I can imagine Africa being more an experimental region/test ground than an actual area of intrest though. I think America/other Asian countries would be most Jap corp's main areas of intrest.As for Europe, friendly competition between Japan and Germany would be nice, especially when they both share a common enemy. I would imagine many nations would be wary to trust the Japanese though.
>>48269356>Does the US occupation of Japan end earlier or later than it does in our own history?>Probably a little bit longer to the point where Japanese society was really influenced by American venture capitalism that would allow it to grow so large in the first place. It would also justify feelings of uneasiness as a long term occupation would hammer the point home to the Japanese that a moments weakness could result in its further defeat and reoccupation from a predatory US or USSR.Yeah, one would assume Hirohito and his Generals and Admirals would realize their dire situation and not just prolong the war out of their spite/honor. As such the Japanese surrender would come way earlier and Hiroshima and Nagasaki would never happen which would lead to a way different relationship and outlook of Japan and US on each other.
>>48261041>>After WWII, the Jews were relocated to Ethiopia and fought a series of wars with the local Muslim populationETHIOPIA IS CHRISTIAN YOU DENSE FUCK
>>48271528So wait, if the bombings never happen, then does an American occupation still happen as well?
>>48261041>The South Koreans won the Korean War>After WWII, the Jews were relocated to Ethiopia and fought a series of wars with the local Muslim populationDamn, that's a pretty far back place to start for a Cyberpunk setting. I'd figure you'd need to diverge in the 80s, but, damn.
Russo-Japanese and Russo-Sino border skirmishes, still happening? If so, it could set the stage for a good war.
>>48272791Yeah, occupation still happens - the US wants a strong presence to resist the communists at the end of the war, perhaps even to the point of forcing the Japanese to support the RoC against the PRC. It's worth noting that the USSR at the end of this WWII has managed to claim/negotiate their way into having Istanbul and a fair bit of Turkey, so the US is very keen to halt them where they can.That said, not 100% on their not being an a-bomb>>48270301India hasn't been covered yet I think, save maybe a murmur of being at least a little friendly with the soviets.I think it's probably a big enough country, in the right place, to be a mix between the two sides while not being split - at least by 2077 - but I don't really know
>>48273066>That said, not 100% on their not being an a-bombFatman and Littleboy were not just to force Japan to surrender, it was to scare the Soviets. It failed miserably, of course, because Stalin had a great spy network and they already knew about it, but nonetheless the idea behind it was that the Soviets would see America's power, and fuck off.
>>48273036I doubt the Chinese would be eager to go to war with the Russians again but it could possibly work out between the Japanese and the Russians, especially considering Japan's allies in Asia. A inter Chinese war sounds more intresting imo.
>>48273066>I think it's probably a big enough country, in the right place, to be a mix between the two sides while not being split - at least by 2077 - but I don't really knowIndia was socialist for the most part, and very much was in bed with the Soviets. If WW3 ever kicked off, they had treaties to assist the Soviets by any means. I'd imagine that India is still aggressive towards Pakistan, and pro-Soviet.>>48273087Russian bid for land in China using border skirmishes as a justification? North China is pretty damn industrialized after all.Alternatively, the Russians never fully captured Sakhalin, and Russo-Japanese border skirmishes kick off on the island, which leads to a low intensity conflict for control of it. Ends in a relative stalemate after peace and a DMZ is established, but absolutely soils any and all relations between the two nations?
>>48273079Yeah, it's a bit far back, but it's good for depth - it's also good for answering stuff like "why is the USSR still around in the 2070s?">>48273079Yeah, I like keeping the Bomb as a way to keep wars between major powers off the table>>48273036Russo-Sino not really - maybe a couple of scuffles with the RoC, but they're further away. The PRc doesn't split away from the soviets in its smaller form, it's still mostly friendly (though a little resentful)Russo-Japanese is a bit more likely
>>48269195>What is ETA
>>48273066I can see the war ending a bit sooner due to stronger anti-war efforts from the military/emperor but ending up the same way (except with a longer occupation) simply due to anticommunist pressures in America. The longer occupation (as well as the bombings) foster a stronger sense of nationalism in Japan, leading to more of a trust in the JSDF
>>48273036What if they make a deal with the USSR to buy Sakhalin? This could happen in the 90's with a cash strapped Soviet Union undergoing Perestroika, agreeing to hand over a mostly worthless piece of land for a hefty sum, that would help save the Soviet economy from total collapse like it did in reality. This would also be the moment where the U.S. starts questioning its ability to control Japan like it was able to in the past. Cue an event in which U.S. diplomats unsuccessfully try to get Japan to call off the deal, which produces fallout and animosity between the two nations.
>>48269555Gives it a good reason to be on better terms with the Japanese and less preyed upon by the US megas - as Brazil's the biggest and probably most stable country in South America this seems reasonable - their natural strengths combined with the support of the Japanocorps for Japanese Brazilians in positions of power making Brazil a respectable secondary power, though there's a fair bit of preference to Japanese business
>>48273132I like the idea of a short lived Russo-Japanese War where Japan gets to test its new military might and is successful against the Russians as a result (pro-captialist Chinese and Korean help helps them a lot in this conflict)
>>48273156>"why is the USSR still around in the 2070s?"Speaking of which; why is the USSR around in the 2070s? The country was very clearly destined for death. They would have to have serious reforms and handled dissent MUCH better than they did, because the USSR collapse was almost inevitable. Not being able to feed your people, having a military that was a fucking joke (The Red Army by the 80s was absolutely garbage. NATO would have steamrolled the Warszawa Pact if it weren't for the fact that Russia's nuclear doctrine existed), and encouraging in-fighting and misinformation in your intelligence agency makes not for a good country.I recommend having a period of reform for the USSR, to make them more stable in the long run. Better international trade relations, and perhaps a military coup to keep the country's leadership more on the same page than its internally balkanized structure that was in place by the 1980s.>>48273194Perestrojka still happened? Sure, and I think the purchasing of Sakhalin would make sense to help the Sovs, but Perestrojka needs to get undone. Maybe have Janajev assume power in the attempted coup in 1991, and have the hardliners run the show from there? Gorby really was the death of the Soviet Union. The nation just didn't work without hardliners running the show.Vid related is a good idea of what good have happend (Minus the nuclear armageddon)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCblCImmgu8
>>48273236I was thinking Perestroika was done in a different way that still lead to a recession, but didn't nearly damage the Soviet economy as much as it did in real life.
>>48273208Brazil would be a point of contention between the U.S. and Japan, where both countries would battle it out for diplomatic favors and political influence. Brazil itself also is much wealthier and developed than in real life due to the Brazilian Miracle going on for a lot longer than it did in reality, making Brazil much wealthier with a robust middle class that would be able to survive the eventual crash, which didn't hurt the Brazilian economy nearly as bad In this timeline.
>>48273194Sounds like a good idea. The purchase of Sakhalin will certainly be a major event in the 90s, comparable to the annexation of Crimea. It will not only show to America that she's not in charge of Japan anymore, but it would also make evident the new power of Japan to other Asian nations, who still have in memory the atrocities of WW2. I'm also sure that these events would cause some turmoil in both countries. In the Soviet Union, military leaders and nationalist will protest about the weakness shown by the progressive goverment. Heck, it may even trigger a coup in the USSR to restore hardliner power. Meanwhile in Japan, liberals and pacifists will protest about the imperialist turn of the country. This can have an effect on Japan's internal politics in the coming 21st century.
>>48273236Well for one thing they've got Constantinople (which is about as big as Moscow and a huge port) and a large part of the Middle East as Soviet Republics and/or Satellite States, so they have a lot of oil money from that.They also have some significant investments and allies in resources in the PRC/Mongolia region, though those may have come laterThe other thing is that their economy hasn't been quite so disastrous - their central planning was both somewhat compartmentalised and largely computerised - first with telex-type machines a la Project Cybersyn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn) then later with AI - by 2077 the Soviet Distributed Economic Planning AI is the largest and most advanced of its kind in the world, though other, less ambitious AIs are "smarter">>48273194>>48273303This seems like a good turning point for the USSR - a period where allowing the dreaded foreign investment and purchasing shook up the country, while adding an influx of money - for example if the USSR grudgingly facilitated the Japanese and the Germans (major economic powers and allies again) to trade via the Trans-Siberian railway, under two conditions: the engineering powerhouses upgrade the damn thing, and they have to pay Soviet handling/rolling stock fees.It's a huge cost, and a galling admission of weakness, but being able to ship thousands of tons from the Japanese sphere to European markets in a few days made the costs worth itHardliner power might thus be more focused on keeping the ideology of the country strong and stable
>>48273303Not the anon you are replying to but I like this a lot. Changes Japan from a passive to an active nation while stirring up imperialistic sentiment in the nation ironic how the opposite happens in Russia.
>>48273395>Soviet planning AIs for the MotherlandI love it.
>>48270044Obviously, Germany is going to be the biggest fish on the pond on that continent, but its power was limited to the ECC. An organisation which Spain was not allowed to join for the whole dictatorship drama. In OTL, one of the reasons the Franco regime fell was the percieved backwardness of the country compared to the rest of Europe, symbolised by the ECC. But if in this setting the Franco regime continues, that means that it will have to use force. And that may isolate Spain further, making the country less stable. Its only real ally is the US, whose public opinion is increasingky disgusted by the Spanish regime's actions against its own people.In the 80s, Spain is practically isolated. There's a real fear in the Goverment of a communist revolution lead by the Soviet-backed ever-growing PCE. Terrorist organisations like GRAPO gain popular support. The late 80s in Spain are marked by brutal terrorist attacks and political violence and even more brutal government repression with the aid of CIA. Even the Catholic Church, one of the foundations of the regime, protests against the violence of the regime. By the early 90s, the Governement is at its knees, in spite of American support. A communist takeover seems certain.Enter Japan.After the purchase of Sakhalin, the Japanese government, with a newfound confidence in their cnation's power, and the US pressures the USSR to stop funding the PCE and GRAPO in Spain. This gives some breathing space to the fragile Spanish State, but stability is far from achieved.Then, Japanese diplomats make a series of negotiations with Spain without the US knowing. In exchange for economic and covert military support, Spain would grant Japanese companies privileges and it would reduce political repression to prevent a Second Civil War from breaking out.cont.
>>48273631Allying with an unstable fascist nation in a faraway continent may not seem like teh best idea at first, but Japan has two main interests in Spain. First, its large fishing fleet. The unstoppable growth of the Asian economy has meant that the fish reserves of the continent have greatly suffered. Spanish fishing may be the only thing keeping the Japanese supply afloat. Remember that the Japanese are the top consumers of fish of the world.The other is Spain's geostrategic location. Once Japan has gained the trust of the highly nationalistic Spanish government, it can open naval and aereal bases at the other side of Eurasia and in North Africa (Canary islands). Thus Japan would have presence in both the Pacific and Atlantic. Spain may also be used as a lever by the Japanese to replace Soviet influence in Africa by theirs.In spite of its secrecy, by the 2000s, Japanese support to the autocratic, yet softening, Spanish State is evident. This makes unconfortable both the US, who further realise the true extent of Japanese power. Japan also begins negotiation to the ever-weakening UK in order to gain access to Gibraltar, the key to the Mediterranean.Germany is shocked by the turn of events. Japan, its greatest economic ally, has entered its natural sphere of influence, Europe, without permission. As a result, Portugal is added in the EEC, to contrarrest Japanese influence in the peninsula. France is also not amused by Japanese influence in a bordering country, which may also pose a potential threat to her African colonies.
>>48273631>>48273771I like this but my only worry is that i don't see Japan doing something that they know would both upset the Soviets and the Germans. Sure it creates conflict, but ultimately its unnessary conflict for the Japanesr side as it makes too many enemies than it gives them gains. The fishing/naval angle is very intresting though and I can still see Japan/Germany/the UN working together against Russia.I would much rather an unstable/wary web of relations than nationalistic Japan making enemies that they don't need.
>>48268355It's very simple - operate in realistic boundaries, instead of running wild.Want a change?Here, get Korea united. Suddenly ENTIRE REGION has a massive shift. Japanese are no longer extorted by North, so is South. South needs to invest shitload of cash in North (because North taking South is a joke, really), Chinese interests are completely fucked up in the area (they are currently leasing a non-frozing port from North to cut short 1k km over Manchuria, shipping over 150 km railroad and then loading on ships)Congratu-fucking-lations, you now have:- Korea that is both at odds with China and massive expenses to put on North (while keeping their army)- China that yet again is fucked with access to the sea- Japs that lost one of the main reasons they maintain half of their army... or, sorry, self-defense forces- RoC is still a strategically important, but absolutely meaningless military shithole in the middle of nowhere, with no real means to get back on landAnd even based on those, you can still run a decent cyberpunk setting. For crying out loud, Feng Shui managed to have an entire setting build around future Hong Kong and you can't handle broad strokes of a full region setting.
>>48273812You're right in that softer power is more appropiate for the Japanese. Maybe the Japanese can take over the Spanish fishing sector economically while having an ambiguous relation with the government.On the geostrategic interests of Japan, maybe you can make that the rise of Japanese power create a kind of imperialist lobby/faction/party that wants to make Japan grow militarily and economically. The general public in mainly against said faction, but they are still quite influental in Japanese politics.
>>48273886I think an emerging militaristic/imperialistic factor fits better. There's growing support within the government for (though the general public, especially those that lived through the war don't support them) it. This causes tension in Japan whilr not outright giving them unneeded enemies abroad, especially amongst their trade partners and allies.
>>48273303The return of hardliners to power can be most exemplified by the People's Network - the soviet cyberspace.Heavily monitored, widely available, and in many places the networking services are mandatory (check China's credit systems ideas to see what sort of thing I mean), the People's Network is a massive technocratic organ of control, even as it allows the citizens of the Union to communicate with each other and access the great libraries of public data and media.That said though, the tracking systems, business servers and secure intranets of the People's Network make it a juicy target for hacking, by criminals, foreign agents and even internal soviet forces.>>48273631>>48273771Interesting that Japan would do such a thing, but if Spain is unstable and in danger of collapse I guess I could see it - Germany, the US and the UK might have just looked at it as a pariah/exploitable zone with little to offer them, but Japan wants something from Spain, and as possibly the world's largest economy it's in a position to get it - though it might not do so quite brazen a fashion, given that they are friendly with Germany
>>48273919Seems like a good idea to me. Maybe in the future a kind of pacifist movement appears in Japan to prevent another disaster like WW2 if the government gets too expansionist.>>48273926Yeah, Japan's plans may be a bit rushed. Instead, I propose that the Japanese try to convince the Francoists to give up power voluntarily to prevent a civil war. Then, a democratic regime is formed under Japanese and German guidance, which is then accepted into EEC, but it still holds many economic and political ties to the Japanese and the Germans. Maybe later on the Spanish suffer some kind of economic crisis and decide to break off from the EEC and allign themselves fully with Japan.
>>48274051I would say the opposite. Tired of being linked to Japanese and German corps, after economic reform, the Spanish break off and formally re join the rest of the European nations.I can imagine the pacifist faction in the Japanese government already being pretty popular, at least after the war/occupation
Nth for Rhodesia becoming succesful
>reminder that Japan outfits the Yamato with railgunsTENOU HEIKA BANZAI
>>48274109Yah, a /k/ommando suggested that last thread - he was immediately outed as a /k/ommando.But that's okay, /k/ and rhodesia are cool - it'd be interesting to have an African state that's not totally gone to pot.>>48274139The NEW Yamato, not the original. That really shouldn't have to be clarified, but you know You know, in the last thread I figured a reason the Japanese Defence Force might build a new battleship (other than it being damn cool, ofc) - the JSDF is limited by various things on what it can and can't have - Japan cannot hold offensive military weapons - this has been interpreted to mean that Japan cannot have ICBMs, nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers or bomber fleets.Japan's quite creative about getting around that - see pic related, the largest and latest Japanese surface combatant, a "helicopter destroyer", which is suggested to just happen have aircraft lifts large enough for the F35, at least some of which are being bought with mention of variants.Post WWII it'd be reasonable to not ban Japan from building battleships - as obsolete weapons, they don't need to be banned, even when it's the nation self-policing.Fast forward to, say, the 2040s or 50s (or earlier depending on tech), Japan is a major power, anti-missile lasers can lock on to all but the very fastest projectiles, the pro-imperialist faction is rising, their booming heavy industry wants to show off, lo and behold the JSDF gets a shiny new flagship - the new Yamato, with it's massive railgun broadside and bristling with laser point defence turrets.
>>48274109Rhodesia would still be a very minor nation that relies strongly on South Africa to export surplus outside of Africa. This inadvertently makes them fall into the Japanese sphere via South Africa's PM's close ties with Japan.
>>48273812Germany wouldnt necessarily be opposed to growing Japanese power in Europe if it opposes the interests of the USSR (which is everyone's common enemy in this timeline). I think it's a good compromise though that the more or less "friendly" relations the U.S., Japan and Germany have are also marked by economic rivalry between the three, each trying to outdo the other in terms of economic growth and political influence. Japan's decision to prop up Franco's regime would be in everyone's mutual interests, though they would rather they be the ones with the say.
>>48275671>the more or less "friendly" relations the U.S., Japan and Germany have are also marked by economic rivalry between the three, each trying to outdo the other in terms of economic growth and political influence.That makes a lot of sense - politically they're all allied, but economically there's a lot of competition, and there's areas that they each consider "their" markets
>>48274358I like the idea of the pro military Japanese faction outfiting the military with cutting edge tech. This could extend Japan's land forces as well (as was touched on earlier with augs and other tech)
>>48275671I can see where you are coming from. I can just imagine unless the imperialist faction becomes very prominent in Japan, aggressive military action in foregin countries would be something they would be more careful about. Especially in Europe. I can imagine them doing something more subtle or subdued.
>>48276387Like what areas? Cars and possibly heavy machinery, but I don't see much other cross over.
>>48277714I was thinking locale-wise: Japan's biggest areas of influence are South-East Asia and the Pacific, the US considers Latin America as its playground, and Germany is the largest and most influential economy of EuropeThere are wrinkles, of course - the Philippines, perhaps for US-influenced in the Japanese Sphere, Brazil being Japan-friendly in South America, the Spanish co-operation with the Japanese in Europe etc.
>>48278540Oh ok that makes more sense. I would think India would br a contentious area for Japan/Russia, as would Turkey for Germany/Russia. And of course there's spain for Germany and Japan as well as North Africa/the Middle East for Germany/Russia.Are there any I'm missing?
>>48278540Brazil is very much an isolationist country, most Brazilians only care about Brazil, other countries are practically a world away.
>>48278639Well it's not all fully worked out yet - Turkey's an issue because Constantinople is the USSR's second city, and the middle east in general is for the most part directly or indirectly soviet.India isn't really finalised at this point, nor is much of Africa I'm not sure the levels the USSR and its allies trade with the rest of the world though, anyone got thoughts on that?
>>48266012> "I never knew people could be this autistic about a fucking pretend setting"> is a poster on /tg/
>>48279020Well the USSR trades with the PRC for one. I would imagine they would trade with France and other countries hit hard by German expansion and economic domination. Possibly sympathizer groups in countries like India and their satellite states in the Middle East/Eastern Europe would trade with them as well. Maybe some Oceania/SE Asian countries that resent Japanese expansionism and monopolies as well. Nothing offical though, especially in Asia. The Trans-Siberian Railway is still a thing Japan and Germany would use I imagine.
>>48278892Brazilians =/= Brazilian government though
>>48279020The relations between India and Pakistan have cooled slightly flowing the Kashmir Compromise, where the PM of Japan brought the 2 sides together to negotiate an independent Kashmir state and settling most border disputes between the two powers. Pakistan would also never divide itself from Bangladesh in this timeline as the difficulty in administering the two regions would be forgotten following a resurgance of Pakistani nationalism and a desire to keep the two together in order to preserve the balance on the Indian subcontinent with its much larger neighbor. India itself has greatly improved, particularly in the South which is a hub for international commerce and tourism. The North in Uttar Prattesh still remains blighted by extreme poverty, and has stagnated in growth as the population leaves in droves Southwards. A Super-Bug similar to Ebola effected the region in 2025 which killed approximately 10 million, and was the worlds deadliest plague since the AIDS epidemic.Overall, both countries have improved markedly enough to be considered secondary powers, and several Indian companies are listed among the worlds largest. To Japan, it's mostely a source of cheap, seasonal labor that is brought to Japan to work the dirty jobs that havent yet been mechanized before they're shipped off back to India. This practice is heavily condemned by both the USSR, who decrys it as exploitation of the proletariat, and the Japanese Imperial faction, who are disgusted by the governments importation of uneducated gaijin when there are still unemployed Japanese. Still, there have been a tiny handful of Indians who have managed to gain residency and make a name for themselves in Japanese business, though they continue to face silent disproval from their Japanese peers.
>>48279569Alternatively, America helps Pakistan by sending troops and supplies to crush the Bengali nationalists, ensuring Bangladesh remains a part of Pakistan
>>48279569That seems pretty reasonable - given their location between the soviet and Japanese spheres of influence, to have not-terrible relations with both.Not good relations with either china though
>>48279569I like the idea of the Russians being opposed to Japanesr induced foreign labor (as well as the Imperialistic facton's response to it). The extreme poverty to the north also allows for more Russian power struggles in the region (maybe covert destablization efforts by the USSR to undermine captialist/Japanese support) as well. The silent treatment from the Japanese bosses/overlords is very in line with how they would treat successful gaijin though.
>>48279607The addition of America seems like a bit of a stretch but it might work to make India/Pakistan a new hot zonr in Asia.
>>48280139This would have been long before Japan becomes relevant. The Bengali independence movement was in 1971
>>48280124India would be more like that neutral power that you don't want to fuck with because of how lucerative its markets are, and the Indian governments and its corporations know this. Both Japan and the USSR would have to be very careful not to offend Indian sensibilities at the negotiating table lest they start to give on side or the other preferential treatment. Besides, given that China is now split in two, agitating the most populous country in the world is probably not a very good idea, they have nukes and a space program after all.
>>48280326True, no one would want to offend the Indians I they know this so they eould try to make an open market to rake in as much dough as possible. I imagine southern India would become very prosperous while the wealthy dispairity in the north would become huge.
>>48273867Sorry anon, no one in this thread seems interested in logic and actual international politics. The ideas have centered around American delusions of the Cold War, with little to no nuance over why Communism occurred in the countries it manifested in and no fucks given to the legacy of Japan's actions leading up to WW2 and beyond. No one here realizes that China's #1 enemy during the 60s was the USSR and that they built giant networks of tunnels in preparation of each city being nuked by the USSR. No one also realizes that Pakistan and India exist, which are key players in Russo-Chinese relations as the primary country that pushed for recognition of the PRC as China in the UN and as the closest Asian ally Russia could rely on.No one gives a shit. Let them fap to their imaginations.
>>48280519>muh logic>muh realism>muh politicz
>>48280559Should've refreshed. The fact remains, those two countries fought bitterly over their own border conflict over Kashmir and they both had different strategies to interact with their largest neighbors, Russia and China.Any and all analysis should've started there if it's post WW2. If you were adamant about including a European power, then include Germany regarding China since China was close economic allies with Germany up to WW2. This was made apparent in that both ROC and PRC officers had their standard pistol of German make.
>>48280617It's an anonymous project on /tg/. If you want it to adhere to rigid details, then this isn't the place to look. If OP wanted to have an in depth and realistic alt-history project, he would have stated as such.
>>48273867>>48280519Also PRC involvement in Africa in the 70s is being overlooked. I don't think one can really analyze Africa without first looking at how it as a continent is undergoing various independence movements and that other countries interacted with them (that weren't US/Europe). The Tanzam railway is an early manifestation of Mao's vision, having stated publicly that cooperation with Africa is vital going into the future. Look at Africa today and make judgments based on who actually trades with any of those countries.Japan did have some influence over Asia as a whole through the Asian Development Bank. Maybe start there instead of spouting about an Asian NATO that South Korea and pacifist Japan would've never voted for (and why Japan nor the US ever brought it up in the first place).
>>48280617desu althist is unrealistic to begin with. thats the whole appeal of it (and really cyberpunk as well)
>>48280738It's also /tg/, where we actually pull in more outside information than other boards. That's why we had the reputation of not needing any other boards.The fact remains, you can make shit up and not care about anything involving reality, but it makes for a very poor campaign setting because it just has too many plot holes everywhere. Rather than handwaving everything that doesn't make sense, why not study up on history and start with the places where there is a lot of historical ambiguity? Clandestine action is great for that.
>>48280841Where would you recommend?
>>48280940So we know according to released classified documents that the CIA trained Tibetan agents in the 50s, paradropped them into the region, and had them instigate a rebellion. Historically, the PRC put down the rebellion but much of the Tibetan government at the time fled with the agents. Afterwards the PRC threw away the Tibetan government and began directly administering the region.This is a potential lynchpin in that it has created some level of animosity between India and China, who had a border conflict war in the 60s (Sino-Indian War). Given that India is Russia's close ally and that Pakistan was already moving to be China's closest ally (which is true up to this very day), it makes for some interesting regional conflicts. What is most interesting is that Russia and China were experiencing a breakdown in relations - not only were Russia's communists fundamentally against a populist revolution that sponsored the farmer (instead of the industrial worker) as the critical component to success, they also did not like how Mao classified China's communism as being inherently subservient to Chinese principles.So instead of the US propagandizing the Tibetan government in exile as a martyr of human rights and leading up to this dead end in US interests over the region, why not classify it as a democracy vs totalitarianism struggle in which the US pumps more agents into Tibet, reaches a stalemate with local Chinese troops, and characterizes the divided Tibet as "Germany but in the East?" This forces India's hand much moreso as the primary avenue for which supplies can reach the region, making India responsible for reinforcing its border (despite its wishes, especially at the time). It would lead to either a deeper Sino-Soviet split in which actual war occurs (breakdown of diplomatic relations), or stabilization of relations (Vietnam and North Korea would have to be resolved, but then you have a China not amenable to Kissinger/Nixon).
>>48281084Let's continue with the idea that Russia and China actually stabilize relations. Can you imagine what China would look like if it went the Soviet route for its industrialization? I can't, but that's where we can make shit up. No one knows what a Soviet China would really look like, but we can imagine it to have more public control (direct control over private enterprises as opposed to the mixed public/private market strategy), a deeper focus in military technologies, an earlier shift from charismatic politicians to technocrats, and perhaps more normalized relations with India.Alternatively, we could consider the US and China needing to normalize relations a lot sooner over the much louder clandestine action. Say the US and China normalize and open up shortly thereafter. If Russia and China also stabilize relations, then you can have a situation where the US and Russia can normalize earlier, with McCarthy not taking root and the propaganda in the US restricted to just one party. You then have a situation where shit isn't so divided in Europe (or maybe it still is, at the cost of US/European interests). If we think of Russia and China as deepening their ire towards each other, we can potentially see a normalized Korea, a sooner US-Pakistan alliance, and perhaps a Middle East that cozies up to the US moreso. Or at least, we can expect Pakistan/Afghanistan to be viable US allies, creating a sort of "West vs East" situation in the Middle East. China would have to be a lot less hostile to the US' allies, including S Korea and Japan. Who the hell knows what would happen in that weird love/hate polygon?
>>48281084>>48281259>look guis I'm so smart I know so much!!!fuck off
Over 80 murdered by Muslim jihadis in Nice, France, tonight. France is on the verge of civil war. Your alternative world where the USSR occupies the mideast is looking better than our real world.
>>48283687>I prefer right wing deathsquads and communist juntas to brown people!But the world is much better than it was in the cold war.
>>48283687>France is on the verge of civil war....against whom?
>>48283687>civil warLiterally whatalso>implying France is relevant
>>48283687>tfw Japan will get its military backLife is good
>>48282173Fuck you, the other anon asked.
>>48261041So the Pacific seems like a pretty big hotspot in this setting, but what's Australia doing during all of this? Does Japan's growth draw from Australian resources, creating mining/agricultural export backed economic growth for the sunburnt country? And there's already a shit-ton of asian tourism to Australia, would that grow as well?
>>48286987Yeah, it seems quite believable that the Aussies would fall quickly into Japan's sphere of influence a la South Africa. Australia can be a really good political, economical and even military ally for the Land of the Sunrise. The US can still hold many ties with Down Under, but we can say that Japan calls the shots there.A possible factor in Pacific geopolitics is Indonesia. What's going on down there? Are they allies of Japan? Or are they a bulwark against Japanese influence in the region? That could make a military alliance between Australia and Japan more likely.
>>48287208>The US can still hold many ties with Down Under, but we can say that Japan calls the shots there.I mean, just going IRL statistics, Australia's imports vs exports for America and Japan are pretty much inversed, monetarily. (In that the cost of the stuff we import from the usa is the same as the cost of stuff we export to japan.) And (obviously) Australia is an 'americanized' country, so that may be a point of contention where you have this very western/american culture that has very close economic ties with Japan, creating a country that in many ways relies upon the two opposing 'Titans' (to borrow >>48268812's turn of phrase.)
>>48286987I think Australia would more or less stay the same.
Let's talk tech. What sorta stuff would the everyday person in Japan see? What about Germany? The USSR? China? What techs have become mainstream? Which are more experimental? Which see military usage only?
>>48287559Augs are fairly normal to see. Service robots are common, and nearly everyone even in the poorest parts of the world has an Internet connection. Japanese citizens would have access to very high quality tech, but because the cost of living in Japan has skyrocketed, most Japanese cannot afford much more than a middle class salarymans lifestyle. The ones who are wealthy are increadibly so, able to afford health treatments that bump the average lifespan up from 90, to 105, of which they are able to retain their youth for a much longer period of time. "Smartphones" have evolved into contacts lenses that you insert into your eye and that responds to your eye movements and are ubiquitous among all but the most techphobic Japanese.
>>48287833Given the way the ageing population of Japan is now, do you think cyberpunk-future-Japan would see something similar: being a nation of high tech overall, but with the large and respected older population keeping a lot of anachronisms around?
>>48287833Only 105, even by 2077ish?
>>48287833>Augs>Smartphones>Middle classI thought we were writing a cyberpunk setting here?
>>48291629A middle class of sorts can exist in a cyberpunk setting - consumer goods need consumers, after all.Smartphones can exist in a cyberpunk setting - they fit into the same category as old-school "cyberdecks" in many cases battery and raw power will mean that they cannot be the be-all and end-all of portable computing; they don't have to obsolete bigger gear. Also pic related is something you can buy right now.Augs, well that really depends what they are, but I'm sure suitably priced and fluffed they can be okay - they certainly can fit into cyberpunk, implanted tech has always had a place in the genre
>>48292119I was making a joke that Cyberpunk must be 80s in nature.The picture I posted previously really should have tipped you off. Augs = Steyr AUG. I'm saying it's a stupid term made by a shitty game.
>>48292246Ah, not /k/ enough to recognise an AUG.Also I've not played Doosex
>>48292246Plus people seem to say that shit unironically in /tg/'s cyberpunk threads
>>48292298I figured most people would recognize the AUG. C'mon, haven't you ever seen Die Hard?
>>48292362Would a nogunz? But yeah, I wasn't really thinking about it. And Die Hard is a christmas film, I'm usually merryPosting a more cyberpunk gun - if you ask the 80s, the future is caseless
>>48292623It still is with the State's LSAT program.But really, we all know the future is caseless bullpup flechettes.
...and now Turkey's got a coup d'etat.
>>48291596That's an average. They can potentially live for much longer. The oldest man to ever live would have reached around 150 years old
>>48292851>caseless bullpup flechettes.I'm sure there's something missing... telescoping rounds maybe?
>>48261041Is Korea part of the Republic of China? Wat
>>48298160No, just allied due to capitalism.
>>48298160No, just on the same side - they're kinda-allies, and, more importantly, they're both capitalist
>>48261041Okay, can someone write up a cliff note version of Japan's post-WW2 history in this setting, and limit it to the parts relating to east and southeast Asia?Might want to expand some fluff about Indonesia in this setting.
>>48302253>>48302253Okay nothing's set in stone or anything, but to summarise:America still drops the bomb and comes in to occupy and reorganise, but with the USSR having finagled/forced their way into capturing Istanbul and claiming large portions of the Middle East setting up the Far East as a bulwark of capitalism becomes even more imperative.To this end the Zaibatsus are barely touched at all, though some evolve into Keiratsu anyway (there's very little difference, and IRL their dissolution was stopped for this exact reason) and the Reverse Course starts even earlier - there's less focus on changing Japan, more on getting it up and moving to prevent Communism in the East - with typical American insensitivity this includes using Japanese troops to help fight Chinese and Korean communists during both countries' civil wars, though they were at least smart enough to put them under American command (as the Japanese military is still banned from "offensive" action in this setting).Post-war reconstruction, and later reconstruction in Korea happens mostly under Japanacorp control - maybe one or two Korean corps emerge in the Miracle on the Han, but it's largely the Japanese that get the top end of it, through Korea-based subsidiaries and sponsored corpsThus the economy of Japan and Korea booms pretty much the same way it did IRL, but more so - the corps were less shook up, and there's the whole of Korea to modernise, so it took longer but had even greater results.At this point there's the issue of how Japan's boom-bubble doesn't burst - this hasn't really been discussed much, as we're not economists and it's a complex question, especially when it's the most major change that inspired the setting. It's been mentioned that most companies, especially traditional ones like enduring Japanese banks and holdings companies don't have a google-like "research anything" blue-sky division - they invest in, safe stuff like property, which leads to housing bubbles (cont)
>>48303976In this timeline there’s more options for the corps to buy property outside of Japan – around South East Asia for sure, in Brazil, highly likely, probably in South Africa and with the American occupation being a bit longer there’s relations enough that they buy more in the US too.There’s also room for the corps to be more confident, and invest in expansion – they still have something of a property bubble, with prices in places like Tokyo being ridiculous, but the money is more spread about and in less danger of going crazy or popping the bubble. Consumerism is in full swing and personal electronics establish themselves as THE thing to have.Going forward from the super-80s and into the future (i.e.: past the 2000s) there’s a rise in both militarism/imperialism and some reactionary pacifism – the purchase of Sakhalin in the 90s from the Soviet Union gives the nationalists great confidence, even as the Japanese liberals protest. The upgraded German-Japanese trade link (via the somewhat cash-strapped Soviet Union) only improves all three nations’ economies.A fair few of the megacorps invest heavily in developing the Japanese military-industrial complex, to great profit whenever the nationalists get in power. By the 40s or 50s this has led to some serious build-up, including the massive railgun battleship Yamato. The US finds that it’s not really the boss of Japan any more, and its economy overtaken for the first time. Japanese culture, and Japanese language in the sciences becomes more and more noticeable. That’s about it – we haven’t really got too much post 2000s stuff for the setting
>>48280573>Buiding a setting grounded in real-world>Ignoring history, politics and common senseKill yourself already
>>48282173>Anon 1 ask a question>Anon 2 answers that question>Anon 3 goes shitposting
>>48303976>>48303995Just a reminder that anyone is free to write in comments in the world doc and OP can put it in.
>>48303995Well we have some stuff about possibly a USSR internet intelligence supercomputer AI, augmentations, advances in science and cybernetics, the riots in France/Britain, USSR advances in North Africa, covert ops in the Chinese mainland (either by the RoC or US), tensions between the Chinese communists and the Russian communists, expansion of the Japanese megacorps overseas on the Pacific, ect... I think a lot of technological advances would be happening the in the late 20th/early 21st centuries. One thing we haven't been able to nail down though is what techs belong to what countries/what countries invented what technologies. Maybe some of them were joint efforts?>By the 40s or 50s this has led to some serious build-up, including the massive railgun battleship Yamato. I imagine this would come later, possibly by the 80s or so, with the rise of the Imperialistic/Militaristic Faction in the Japanese government
>>48304172I did mean the 2050s - enough time for the best point defence lasers to be a credible defence against missiles, if used en masse (which is why it's a battleship, got to have space for all the lasers)A lot of tech is join effort/quickly propagated - you don't see many things these days that's confined to just one or two countriesI think there was mention of synthetic oil and alternative energy being big in both Japan and Germany - with the Soviet Union sitting on the oil in the Middle East they have quite a bit of leverage with the rest of the world, making alternative fuels a very desirable option>>48304131Forgot about the word doc
>>48304247Oh ok. 40s or 50s definately work better. I imagine a 70s energy crisis following the Soviet expansion in the Middle East would also force many countries to switch to other energies. This would then lead to the world's leading consumers in energy (Germany and Japan) to switch to nuclear. The US wouldn't like this though and a switch would quickly be made to alternative/"clean" forms.
>>48304323Yeah, the rise in alternative fuel sources (even just liquifacted coal) in the 70s and 80s could be a reason for a Soviet slump that would lead to changes and the problems of the 90s.
>>48304382I think the most interesting part about this is despite the huge economic disparity between socio-economic classes as well as rising tensions and wars between the communists and the capitalists, the world more or less no longer suffers from the energy crisis we face today. That, combined with internet for everyone as well as augmentations for those that need it paint the future to not be as grim as many other cyberpunk setting set it out to be.
>>48303976>>48303995Hmm, maybe Indonesian timeline would go like this...>1945 gain independence like original timeline>Soekarno becomes first president, Indonesia went non-bloc>1965 some CIA agents tried to do a false-flag operation and plant Soeharto to power in order to combat communism in Asia>But maybe since China and the USSR is having its border wars and communism is seen as currently weak, the plan doesn't receive much support inside CIA. Soeharto tries the coup anyways but failed.>Soekarno, however, did not chastise the US beyond the usual speech, standing firmly in the non-bloc movement. Indonesia butts heads with Malaysia over border disputes but didn't go far.>Meanwhile, Indonesia sent students into both the eastern and western blocs before the crisis. IRL those sent to the East Bloc never returned after the 1965 fiasco, but in this timeline those students could go on and become intellectuals and return with knowledge.>In this timeline, perhaps Soekarno rescinded his President for Life status after 1965>Overall, Indonesia's stable status attracts economic growth from both the East and West bloc corporations/organizations>1970s, Japanese corps invest some of their stuff in Indonesia, along with the other SEA countries. Indonesians quickly become a growing market for the Japanese.>Perhaps during the 1970s there's more and more Indonesians going to work to Japan, or Japan-owned corporations>Maybe since there's no brain drain in the 1960s, plenty of Indonesian scientists work in Japan>This could have led into Japan's technological advance, and some of that technology splashed back to Indonesia>On the other hand, it could be that Western corps and Japanese corps try to gain Indonesian (and SEA) market, leading to a situation where the corps have more power than the government>This could lead to a growing divide between the rich and poor, and growing urbanizationcont
>>48304483Yeah, there's less of an energy crisis, but there's still strain, and synthetic fuels aren't cheap, easy or particularly clean (you might get one of those)I've always thought Cyberpunk doesn't have to be all grim all the time - people still live, love and laugh - even when there are corps that move nations, immense exploitation, mass surveillance and intrusive cyberware, there's still a fair life for a lot of people, and technology itself isn't evil.One thing I'm wondering is how to keep the Soviets around - I'm thinking a renaissance of sorts in the 2010-20s - maybe space based success - and perhaps some of the state organs (design bureaus, goods manufacturers, etc.) being allowed to operate in a limited capacity outside the union to reduce the dependence on natural resources, acting a little like the capitalist megas - I don't know all that much about how a soviet economy would handle that though.Pic related, the Soviet Concorde - not all that good IRL, but Britain and France (though they've not been discussed much) are less strong in this timeline.I'm also reminded of a Gibson-Stirling story, Red Star Winter Orbit about a failing soviet space station - it's not cyberpunk, directly (it's from the Burning Chrome anthology though), but it's an interesting look at what the founders of cyberpunk thought might be in the soviet futurehttp://pastebin.com/yUXdshLk
>>48305033>So you have corps reigning supreme over the government, plenty of smart people but not enough jobs for them>Indonesia could become the classic Cyberpunk we see Japan is becoming todayFeel free to tweak or criticize, I don't feel so sure about the factors. But it all hinges on the 1965 fiasco not happening, or did happen and failed.
>>48305033>>48305062Seems pretty good, though Sino-Soviet wars aren't really a thing - here it'd be RoC vs PRC boarder skirmishesThe CIA not fucking up deosn't seem so reliable, but the US and Japanese strength and the lack of Communist power in East Asia outside of the smaller PRC and the arse end of the USSR seems like there'd be less of a need to actually purge, so the relationship there is better and any anti-communist impetus for the president to remain president-for-life is severely diminished (he might still be it though, depending on what the CIA are doing)Non-bloc movement makes sense - along with India Indonesia is recognised IRL as one of the founding countries of that, and the Fiasco of 65 not happening allowing both sides to mix to a degree seems reasonable
>>48279569Im imagining Southern India would be SUPERPOWER BY 2020 tier with all the conveniences of modernity, while the North would be a quarenteened hellhole with abandoned villages and cities, communist rebels, bandits, and Calcutta would basically look similar to Pripyat from STALKER.
>>48305044>synthetic fuels aren't cheapMainly this. Lot's of money would be put into energy megacorps I think.>I don't know all that much about how a soviet economy would handle that though.I think due to a much larger USSR the Russians would aim for a more populist type of economy, maybe try to utilize their working class in the Middle East and North Africa.
>>48305811Northern India would be a hell hole. I love the idea of abandoned cities/towns, commie rebels, and lawless bandits with rogue soldiers and OPERATORS trying to live off the land and survive there.
>>48305838>Takeshi takes a wrong turn down a Bombay street on his business trip, the city has been present so far, the buildings pleasantly remind him of his hometown in Nagoya until now. >Suddenly comes across a giant steel door guarded by two Indian soldiers that look like they're carrying enough firepower to turn a tank into slag.>Can see smoke and hear distant gunshots coming from inside the wall. >One of the guards amplifies his voice to ear deafening levels and shouts "THIS AREA IS RESTRICTED, GET OUT OF HERE CIVIE!">Takeshi turns around, and heads back to his hotel still wondering what the fuck he just saw.
>>48306082>Don't go in there, Mister.>Why not?>Beyond these gates is...the ZONE.
>>48305838>Be going through Chandigarh>It's stupidly hot>The ruggedised deck you bought in Mumbia that was promised to connect to both US and Soviet cyberspace connects to neither>Someone's shooting at you from some ruins>Are they separatists? Rebels? Bandits? CIA or KGB proxies? Chinese, Indian or Pakistani?>Doesn't matter, they all shoot the same>You could be living it up in New Dheli right now>But no, your contact wanted to meet up near the borders so you wouldn't know where he's from>Asshole>Just another day in the Quarantine Zone
>>48306273>no SFGweak sauce
>>48306273Wait do people have decks in this future? Or something more compact?
>Be Kim Park, "Security Guard" from Unified Korea>Company I work for gets hired by the Kashmiri government to quell striking farmers, which are bringing the economy to a standstill.>Banter with my fellow Nip and Gook operators on the flight there. Insults like "Fish fucker" and "Dog eater" are liberally thrown about. >Touchdown in Jammu and get met almost immediately with crowds of smelly farmers picketing the airport. >Throw my canister of tear gas into the crowd and shoot my non-lethal ADS laser in an attempt to disperse the crowd. >A sharp, needle like pain in my side disperses quickly as combat stims flood my body.>Turn around and see some street rat teenager desperately trying to reload a revolver that must have been at least 100 years old at this point. >I almost pity him as I place a computer targeted hollow-point round directly between his eyes. >Turn back to the crowd and continue to suppress them until they disperse, with the leaders being rounded up and executed. >Get my side patched up and keep the antique bullet as a souvineer of sorts. >All this considered, a rather uneventful operation.
>>48307045Eh I was just using it as a more cyberpunk word for laptop, with emphasis that it can connect to the net
>>48307252What about "holopad" or something like that
>>48307208Wait what? How does he not die from a gunshot?
>>48309437You should totally ask /k/ that question
>>48311395Because it's a monumentally stupid question and that anon deserves /k/'s ire. >>48307973Eh, PAD is alright - Personal Access Device, also like ipads 'n shit
>>48311760PAD sounds like a pad women put on
>>48311760>a monumentally stupid questionLiterally how?