Tell me this /tg/:What would the world be like if the Japanese economic bubble had never burst?
>>48185231Japan would utterly rule the 2d animation industry. Sakuga fans rejoice. fyi it was in the 80s that cartoons outsourced to Japan for animation work. A lot were intros and others were cuts that would be utterly budget-breaking for burger animators (not to mention skill).
>>48185231>everybody would still be using fax machines instead of the internet
>>48187082So basically today?
AltHist thread? Anyways, Japan would be an economic superpower not unlike China today. However, they would be limited by land and would either be forced to create artifical islands or some other means of having more land to put their increasing population.
>>48185231We'd live in a world where the Japanese economic bubble is just about to burst.To make your question work, we'd have to redo the economy entirely. It was always going to pop.
>>48188432Nice try smartass. Why not answer the question first?
>>48188507The Japanese bubble burst due to rampant land speculation. The land speculation occurred because Japanese businesses were doing too well and companies had too much money. They literally had nowhere better to invest in, so they did the "safe" bet of real estate. Exact same thing as 2008.We've reached a point where sometimes business generates too much money. There's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more capital looking for investment than there is demand. The economic model we have is so drastically i favor of supply that we have to make up demand in artificial markets that turn into massive bubbles.So yeah. The Japanese model, just like the 2008 bubble, was inevitable. That's the answer to your question.
>>48188622But what if there was no bubble? What if it never burst? Not OP but try looking at the problem more creatively
>>48185231>What would the world be like if the Japanese economic bubble had never burst?Anime would had been most dangerous than ever.
This is the only japanese bubble I know, sorry.Doesn't look like it's gonna burst.
>>48188622Whatever happened to companies reinvesting in themselves or providing big employee bonuses for a good quarter?
>>48190301The company is already growing, as it's doing well, and unlike google (and a few others) most companies - especially those in traditional industries - don't have a "do research on whatever" division, so what would they reinvest in?Most of the time they're not going to strike out into totally new business areas, that's a ridiculously huge risk, losing them value (for taking said risk) with no guarantee that the expansion will work, so they put their money in a "safe" bet like property that should bring modest returns.Big employee bonuses are pocket change, those happen anyway, and you can't give too big a bonus to those working at the bottom - it sets up bad expectations
>>48187347Even more on steroids. Imagine Akira-level and Artmic overanimated stuff far more often. And of course glorious five-tone shading. The bubble would mean budgets would make Kabaneri-looking tier stuff happen far more often.
Toha Heavy Industries would be all over the place and experimenting on new technology for mechanical transplants.
>>48192757>>48191723>>48187163Let's make a setting out of this. A few facts to outline:>The Japanese business model either changed or was altered in some way so that the bubble doesn't exist/exists in a state of indefinite stability or growth>Japan is a major economic superpower, dominating industries like automobiles, electronics, and robotics>Various international Japanese corporationsAnything I'm missing?
>>48193034Can't the anime industry be used as a propaganda machine? Kinda like Hollywood minimizing Red Army casualties and contribution to the victory at ww, something along the lines of "Japan did nothing wrong".
>>48193194Maybe anime portraying how terrible the Americans were during the occupation? Anti-imperial sentiment in the thirty/forty years after the war still pretty high, even during the 80s and 90s. So I imagine not many nationalistic/propaganda anime would be made about the Japanese Empire (although thinly veiled stuff like KanColle and Gate might still be made), just nothing overt.
>>48193034>Let's make a setting out of this. A few facts to outline:>The Japanese business model either changed or was altered in some way so that the bubble doesn't exist/exists in a state of indefinite stability or growth>Japan is a major economic superpower, dominating industries like automobiles, electronics, and robotics>Various international Japanese corporations>Anything I'm missing?>Germany dominates European industry, Japan would dominate American industryThey lost the war but won anyway...
>>48193452I forget, what sort of industries/businesses did German companies dominate?
>>48193488What Industries does Germany dominate?> Heavy Machinery> Engineering in General> Craftsmanship> Cars> Panzers> Trains> Weapons
>>48193542If we were to go full sci fi/futuristic I could imagine Japanese electronics teaming up with German trains/cars/tanks (maybe some sort military contract for the last one). Combining weapons with robotics would make for some smart guns. Further down the line maybe exos.
>>48193609>I could imagine Japanese electronics teaming up with German trains/cars/tanksThat actually seems really reasonable. Japanese electronics with German mechanics.
>>48193566KanColle isn't strictly a nationalistic franchise/anime but I get what you mean. A resurgence of pride in the military as well as the strength of the economy and portraying the healthy work ethic of the salaryman as well as them working together in a sort of shared effort. Maybe not specifically nationalistic but highlighting the strengths of a non-individualist workforce.
>>48193652The only question remains of what would happen in the rest of East Asia during all of this. If Japanese electronics/robotics companies are joining forces with German heavy machinery/engineering companies, then maybe the Chinese might be looking to get in on it as well? I would also imagine Korea would start to get a lot of trade and tourism, with its proximity to Japan and everything.
>>48193710>then maybe the Chinese might be looking to get in on it as well?Well, that would probably depend on how Russia/Soviet Union fares as PRoC China has always been very closely tied to them regarding economy and military materiel....or you go the route that the PRoC lost the civil war and actually "modern" China is descended from the RoC. WOuld also be very interesting.
>>48185231China would find ways of shitting all over Japan, as China hates the Japs. Probably through cheaper imitation of quality Japanese products like now. Instead of China owning American debt, they'd own Japanese debt and start fucking with them.
>>48190301>ReinvestmentGROWTH. I.E Nintendo & Sony>Big BONUSWhatever. I.E SEGAA lot of Jap companies is also structured to be a lot of smaller things in the same sector, they are not like Google which is spreading its tentacles everywhere because they don't know what is profitable.
>>48193820I don't know much about the RoC. What would've they looked like?
>>48193710>>48193820>>48193873Also if you go with Japan: Electronics, Germany: Engineering/Mechanics, then the main "selling point" for China would be: Pure manpower. I mean the thing China is best at is simply pure size of workforce, plus production capacity and knock-off/reproduction talent. Granted that causes a suffering in quality, but that could be remedied.Also thinking back to the WW2 talents, Germany was good at tanks and infantry, fighters and fast-bombers but lacked tactical bombing and naval wise they had subs but no regular battleships or carriers. Meanwhile Japan was good at the whole carrier/battleship fleet thing (plus the interesting airplane carrier-sub concept), bad at tanks and had far more developed plans for strategic bombing and very nimble fighters. They'd both complement each other quite well actually, plus joint development in subs or fighters would have been interesting.
>>48193873I could imagine China making counterfiet Japanese goods and turning it into cheap shit. Might make for an intresting black market with Chinese markets selling their counterfiet shit to the highest bidder that (ie people/companies/countries that can't afford/get the Japanese originals)
>>48193969>I don't know much about the RoC. What would've they looked like?Well, the biggest "remainder" of the original Republic of China is Taiwan. So, if they had won, modern China probably would look a lot more like Taipei and Hong Kong.
>>48193661I deleted my post because I mixed domestic propaganda and foreign one.>A resurgence of pride in the military as well as the strength of the economy and portraying the healthy work ethic of the salaryman as well as them working together in a sort of shared effort. Maybe not specifically nationalistic but highlighting the strengths of a non-individualist workforce.That is the "Japanese Way of Life" I was thinking of.
Ok so stuff we have so far:>The Japanese business model either changed or was altered in some way so that the bubble doesn't exist/exists in a state of indefinite stability or growth>Japan is a major economic superpower, dominating industries like automobiles, electronics, and robotics>Germany has various big companies that dominate the heavy machinery, tanks, trains, and weapons industries>Japanese visual media is used as nationalistic propaganda outlet>Japanese corps team up with German ones (Japanese electronics and German tanks/trains/weapons)>China has lots of manpower and makes counterfeits/cheap versions of Japanese goodsSome questions:>Where is Korea in all of this? What about Russia?>What is the Japanese-American relationship like?>Is the Japanese military purely a defensive JSDF or have they regained a national military capable of invasion and offense?Any other questions/points I missed?
>>48194263>Japan is a major economic superpower, dominating industries like automobilesI'm no expert on cars, but I'd say German cars are mostly high-end/luxury or work (trucks etc.) while Japanese cars fill the low-medium gap, plus especially dominant in motorcycles.
>>48194263Korea is still an Asian Tiger, but their national companies (ie LG, Samsung, Hyundai) is just a branch of the Japanese conglomerates?As far as I know Taiwan and Japan has good relationship, maybe it could be kind of Asian Canada.>What is the Japanese-American relationship like?
>>48194341That makes sense, especially considering how Germany is a powerhouse in heavy machinery/industry. Would both make the same amount of money (Germany makes a lot because their cars are expensive, Japan makes a lot because they sell a lot to a vast array of people) or would one be above the other?>>48194351>Samsung and Hyundai as Japanese branchesI can dig that. Especially with Hyundai being a child company of a larger Japanese car company. I don't know my Japanese phone companies so I don't know about Samsung though. I can see places like Taiwan and Hong Kong being major tourist attractions for the Japanese. Especially if someone is fleeing from Japan they could go to Taiwan or the Chinese mainland (but that's dependent on what the political landscape in China is like)
>>48194351>Korea is still an Asian Tiger, but their national companies (ie LG, Samsung, Hyundai) is just a branch of the Japanese conglomerates?>As far as I know Taiwan and Japan has good relationship, maybe it could be kind of Asian Canada.Plus if China never went communist, then the whole North-Korea debacle would barely exist and the Korean War would turn out as a decisive victory for the Southern Side uniting it.
>>48194351Shit, accidentally posted it before finishing.>What is the Japanese-American relationship like?>Is the Japanese military purely a defensive JSDF or have they regained a national military capable of invasion and offense?US still holds political sway over Japan as their economy grow more and more reliant on each other it starts to weaken.Japan military is still defensive JSDF but with bigger budget and probably technology too.>What about Russia?Given that we have now two superpowers encircling it, I think Russia could use some boost too. Attach China and North Korea, apply some STALKER like badassery.
>>48194486>Japan military is still defensive JSDF but with bigger budget and probably technology too.I'd imagine a "Japanese Bundesweer".
>>48194449>>48194486So is Korea north and south or one Korea at this point? Because the outcome of the war majorly effects Russian communism. I like the idea of a Russian-Chinese (possibly North Korean if the war splits the country) alliance though.Another question we need to answer is how far in the future this is.
>>48194510So....a military that is part civil service and part armed forces?
Pic is DIB-200, one of the Japanese Bubble dreams.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIB-200>>48194553Honestly I prefer unified South Korea, makes it simpler and no need to deal with Kim shenanigans.>how far in the future this is.2077? Refers to the rpg, future enough to have believable cyberpunk techs but close enough to still be projectable.
This is going to be A E S T H E T H I C setting right?
Shimizu Mega-City Pyramid, another japanese pipe dream.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimizu_Mega-City_Pyramid
>>48194606A unified Korea would lead to a destruction of communism in Korea and would most likely end the spread of communism in East Asia I think. Which would make a Russian-Chinese alliance all the more necessary for the two nations. I agree though, a couple decades after 2050 makes just close enough to be realistic and just far away enough to be sci fi. What sorta cyberpunk techs were you thinking though?
another benefit of japanese superpower would be the presence of sweet sweet japanese snacks all over the globe.
>>48194766What are my tastebuds looking at here?
>>48194825Delicious chocolate mushrooms>>48194781What is this?
>>48194715>What sorta cyberpunk techs were you thinking though?I was thinking something along the line of Deus Ex Human Revolution, Binary Domain, Ghost In The Shell and Kikokugai. Not overly grim but also no teens in giant robots. Very advanced mechanical transplants and power suits but organic stuff is still out of reach (maybe vat-grown meat, but no clones). A person's mind can be put into a artificial brain but for some reason it can't be copied/backuped so death is death.Okay, maybe some minor robots for the children and teens (pic).
>>48194845>What is this?Chinese Civil War between PRC and ROC ends in a stalemate/truce and South Korea wins the the Korean War.Basically switching them, with a unified Korea and a demilitarized zone now spanning northern and southern China.
>>48194887Just to clarify, those are toys called Medabots (Medarots in original).>>48194825Chocolate mushroom/bamboo shoots with cookie stems, simple but quite tasty.Name is Takenoko no Sato and Kinoko no Yama.
>>48194887Maybe augs aren't as widespread as in Deus Ex and mass produced augs are still experimental. Medical transplants, vat-grown meats, Exos/powered suits, maybe some drones/robots for recreational usage as well as scouting/heavy labor robots for the military. I like the idea of an artificial brain for disabled people but it seems a bit subject to bioethics.
>>48194630Hang on, is that the chick from Labyrinth?
>>48194924I like this idea. Puts communist China closer to Russia while still allowing for a more capitalist China to emerge. Korea is unified and has close ties with China/Japan assumingly. Only problem I can see happening is what sort of relationship the RoC would have with Japan economically because what I gathered from the OP was that the PoC was a hotbed for cheap knockoffs of Japanese goods.
>>48194965yeah, the japs had a thing for her apparently.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjrmLtlzlO0
>>48185231Nothing, japan has never done or created anything even remotely useful.
>>48195007>the japs had a thing for her apparently.>Germans love Hasselhoff, Japan loves ConnellyIs there some weird obscure foreigner the USA adored in the 80-90s?
>>48194781>>48194996A landlocked Communist China is at a massive disavantadge though , they wouldn't settle for that.
>>48195029>what is a walkman
>>48195141Not the anon you are talking to, but if PoC allied with Russia, a major economic and military power, they wouldn't be at a disadvantage.
>>48195150do not feed the troll
>>48195182>that cockpitliterally why?
>>48194659First thing I thought of when I read OP.Of course, economics isn't the only thing standing in the way of these types of superstructures. The whole reason they were envisioned in the first place was to deal with potential overpopulation but with Japan's birthrate crashing and burning that future seems all but out of the question now.
>>48195141>A landlocked Communist China is at a massive disavantadge though , they wouldn't settle for that.They wouldn't be landlocked though, they'd still have shorelines and important harbors.Still you got a point, they'd settle for a bit more.
>>48195348I would imagine with the Korean and Japanese (and possibly American) governments backing them up though, the PRC would have a hard time taking back the RoC.I'm honestly more interested in knowing how the Korean War turned in the south's favor as well as how the Chinese Revolution became a stalemate.
>>48195322Maybe more of these types of buildings would be built, especially with more and more people that would be attracted to Japan as their economy grows. Don't know how sustainable it would be for the Japanese economy though.
>>48195262Because it's cool, particularly so because all the high speed wind.
Updated some stuff (note: none of these are final):>The Japanese business model either changed or was altered in some way so that the bubble doesn't exist/exists in a state of indefinite stability or growth>Japan is a major economic superpower, dominating industries like automobiles, electronics, and robotics>Germany has various big companies that dominate the heavy machinery, tanks, trains, and weapons industries>Japanese visual media is used as nationalistic propaganda outlet>Japanese corps team up with German ones (Japanese electronics and German tanks/trains/weapons)>China is split into PRC and RoC after the Chinese Civil War ends in a stalemate>DMZ spans northern and southern China>Korea is a unified South Korea>Korean companies (LG, Samsung, Hyundai) are branches of Japanese corps>Taiwan is like Asian Canada>US-Japanese relationship is more even>JSDF holds a stronger military role but is still ultimately a defensive force (think Japanese Bundesweer)>PRC-Russian Alliance>Japanese megastructures to counter overpopulation>Present day is around 2077>Experimental augmentations, exos/powered suits, vat-grown meats, and helper robotsMore questions:>What is America doing?>What is happening in the Middle East?>What about the Philippines?>Is Russia in a strong or weak position?>Are augs a thing? What about artificial brain transplants?>Are drones/robots widespread?>How advanced is military technology?
>>48195877>>48195348>>48195163Well, in the case of a split China, plus (South) Korea and RoC being heavily backed by the US, plus the Japanese-American co-operation, I'd agree that the PRoC would be heavily involved in their negotiations with the Soviets and ComIntern and Warsaw Pact deals, way more than they did in reality.I mean they would have two heavily democratic/US-sympathizers directly on their doorstep, a somewhat reversed Cuban Crisis maybe?
>>48196079A threat of all-out war between the two Chinas with Russia and their allies/satellite states is an interesting idea. Especially when you consider China's place as an economic power in East Asia. China might be pressured into unfair economic deals with the Japanese and Americans, possibly the Koreans with Japanese backing. Maybe a sort of backdoor dealings with the Soviets/Russians?
Bumping for intrest
>>48196289>A threat of all-out war between the two Chinas with Russia and their allies/satellite states is an interesting idea.It's a curious variant, as the Cold War was simply east vs west, but in this case you'd have the Soviet states in the middle, with the NATO on their west border and America and their backed countries to their east.
>>48196614The idea of a communist vs capitalist East Asia with Soviet countries trying to re-establish communist rule in the region is one that hasn't been done yet. A Cold War between the RoC and PRC with Japanese-backed Korea being a major player in the conflict. I think the Japanese government might want to profit off of the stalemate as well, while at the same time pushing for the RoC to retake China and push back communist influence in East Asia, as well as Asia as a whole. They just can't act because of the nature of the JSDF and everything. I would imagine the Americans would be a distant supporter of the Asian Cold War, supporting the Koreans and Chinese in funds while the Japanese give them the weapons and infrastructure to maintain the DMZ.
>>48195877>What is America doing?>What is happening in the Middle East?>What about the Philippines?Will have to think about it some more.>>Is Russia in a strong or weak position?Given that there are now two "western" superpowers, I'm pretty sure Russia should also be one. Now the question is if it should stay USSR/Communist or post perestroika/capitalist.>Are augs a thing? What about artificial brain transplants?Augs should be a thing but I'm not sure about brain transplant, it's an interesting thing but also rises many questions.>Are drones/robots widespread?>How advanced is military technology?>>48196737 idea sounds nice. Superpower Japan using the the main land conflict as a test bed for new military grade drones/robots.Although I'm not sure if it would be useful, I like the idea of a new era of battleships armed with powerful point defense system based on lasers and precise and heavy railguns, being the japanese Yamato the most famous.
>>48195348I wouldn't be surprised if communist china pushed for India and influenced them to become a communist state. Also, south-east Asia? would ASEAN be even formed? IIRC it was spearheaded by five countries. What I see is that both RoC and PRC would push to influence other countries there. Greater co-prosperity sphere by the japs? influencing the Philippines and/or Indonesia and such?
>>48196921I like the idea of USSR/communist Russia and it makes sense not only historically but it makes for an interesting relationship with Korea, as said above by another anon. I like augs as well but I was never a big fan of brain transplants. It works for stuff like Shadowrun, but I don't think it might work for this setting.>Superpower Japan using the the main land conflict as a test bed for new military grade drones/robots.This sounds super cool, as does railgun cannons on JMSDF battleships. The idea of a Japanese military-industrial complex in a Cold War China is a new and interesting idea that would be a new and novel one.
>>48196957I don't think ASEAN would be formed, especially if a Korean War left a unified Korea. This would mean there would be no Vietnam War since communism would not spread to Vietnam. Most likely there would be a larger effort by Korea, the RoC, and Japan to support the region. It might be called a Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere by Japanese nationalists domestically but more likely than not would be something along the lines of an East Asian Prosperity Alliance or the Association of Asian Nations.
>>48197369Hmmm, so less democratic problems then? IIRC those countries received their own share of problems due to communist china. So the political situation would be what we are experiencing right now, though with more 'we are brothers and shit' Also, one vital part of this is the south china sea, which according to some holds valuable resources. I can see them saying shit like, 'this sandbars are ours, dare move in, your dead'.
>>48185231What do you plan to do with the answer to this question?
>>48197519>I can see them saying shit like, 'this sandbars are ours, dare move in, your dead'.Reclaim Chinese sand.
>>48197315So Japan still follows the article 9 so it's military is "defensive" and the maritime branch is the most notorious one. Battleship Yamato, the symbol of the military, is the first of a new generation of battleships carrying powerful and precise lasers that can neutralize multiple missiles with ease and high-speed railcannons.My idea, although maybe too artificial, would be to have Japan as dominating the seas, US dominating the air and USSR dominating the land.
>>48197548What do you mean?
>>48197519I think Japan could quite easily take those as either part of a governmental relocation project or as a Japanese company uses them for facilities.
>>48197741I'm asking about OPs reason for asking the question, what /tg/-related activity does he intend to use the answer for?
>>48197643I think Germany would dominate the land, especially with joint Japanese-German projects on tanks and weaponry. The US might likely be confined, since they never really spread their influence throughout the world (since the Vietnam War never happened since Korea was never split in two)
>>48197779OP here. I thought it might be a good idea to build an AltHist setting with other fa/tg/uys.
>>48197779World building? Planning to run a game in such scenarios?
>>48194781The only issue I have with that is that you put some of the most anti-communist areas (Tibet) into communist territory and vice-versa, but otherwise this seems fine and a logical conclusion of a frozen PRoC-RoC civil war shortly after the win against Japan.
>>48198067I'm not a huge history buff. Would this be the map of East/Southeast Asia circa 1960s or earlier?
>>48195877>What is happening in the Middle EastWhat if the German and Japanes economy was so grand because the middle east is largely communist, taking away almost all of the strategic circle full of oil and resources from the western world; This would prevent the Western allies from forcing the German/Japanes artificial oil/rubber industries to be closed or make them reopen them again. In RL, they had them closed down because they were a potential risk to the allied oil industries. The Germans and the Japanese invented multiple ways to turn coal, of which they (and in this world, importantly, also the RoC) had a lot, into oil and other synthetics (The Japanese would be reliant on Chinese and Korean coal for this without controll of Manchuria tho). Both of them had bans placed on them to stop all of it after the war.Faced with a more devastating/earlier oil crisis, they might repeal their bans, catapulting those German/Japanese companies that owned those production plans to the top of the most powerful and rich companies in the world, fueling the economy that we are talking about here.
>>48197799What kind of game? What system?
>>48198260Not everything has to be for a game. Settings have been done before on /tg/ that weren't made in the intention of creating a setting for a game. Stop being so uptight.
>>48198242So Japan would still be reliant on coal and fossil fuels? I get that they would import coal and oil from China and Korea, but once the 21st century rolls around, I imagine countries like Japan and Germany might look towards sustainable energy, especially hydro and nuclear (possibly wind in Germany). I do imagine an earlier (and thus more devastating) energy crisis happening as the German and Japanese markets expand across Europe and Asia respectively. I imagine America might try to stockpile its own resources as this happens in order to counteract this.
>>48198242Wouldn't Japan and Germany be able to circumvent that through synthesizing and/or looking to alternate sources of fuel?
>>48198242Also, to expand on this, if Russia would be less sucessful in spreading communism in Asia, they would likely try to spread more into the middle east. The Russians, even the communists, had a weird obsession with aquiring istanbul to receive a warm water port. They even posed it as a claim in peace negotiations. In RL, they were not able to convince the rest of the allies, but were content with grabbing a lot of european puppets. But what if they had not only been less successful in asia, but more diretly in Europe? My favorite strategy in WW2 strategy games as the allies is to take the sound to enable baltic acess for me and land in East Prussia behind the German lines while I land in France as well, so the soviets can't just plow through to Berlin so easily. What if all of/most of Germany had been taken by the western allies while the Soviets plowed through Poland? Either by doing as I outlined or by the German military just being more successful in doing so; Their plan was to hold of the Soviets for as long as they could so more land would fall the the western allies. Had this worked, I am 99% certain a dissatisfied Stalin would have come down on Turkey, and from there on it could have escalated quickly via invasions, revolutions and "revolutions" all over the middle east. A Soviet Union without East Germany (probably even without the Czech Republic, leaving them with the wall in Poland, Slovakia, Hungary) would be focused far more southwards. At this point, Greece is pretty surounded and also with some genuine communist revolutionaries, if you know what I mean.With this scenario, we could explain both the situation of Japan,East Asia and Germany without making the Soviets weak.They would actually be even stronger, with access to warm water ports both in the persian gulf and the mediteranean and a dangerous proximity to imperialistically oppressed Africa and India. Also, they would later find they not only have a lot of sand,but 2/3 of all resources
>>48198457Later on, sure, but it would explain their strength that helped them over the bubble before technology permits such things.>>48198339Yeah. Either the western world goes heavy on atomic stuff or they develop alternative energies. Both seem very possible seeing as those are the ways Japan and Germany handle that shit nowadays.This could actually be very good for the climate lolImagine what Germany is doing today happend 10 years earlier and in Japan as well, and was exported into all the world. That could turn their own energy crisis into a new, gigantic part of their industry. The Chinese would replicate a lot of that of course, as they do today actually.If you want to get really hard sci-fi about it, you could make some hypothetical methods of storing the fluctuating engery spikes of alternative energies into a reality. Gigantic artificial plateaus with artificial lakes up top to store energy in a kinetic way. My favorite completely serious and real aproach (not kiddig by the way) is to saw out a hundred meter tall and kilometer wide cylinder out of a mountain massive with geologically stable stone, install a ginormous watertight rind and just pump wate in there. a circlic ring of mountain just lifts itself up several dozen meters; in times of need you just open the vents and run that high pressure water through water turbines again. That's about as sci-fi as real modern science planning gets.
>>48198467So after the Korean War ends in the Japanese/American's favor and the Chinese Civil War ends in a stalemate, the USSR turns its focus to the Middle East? I would imagine they would try to spread communism and establish more puppet states in that area. Greece is a major target, as is Turkey (although this might be subject to more straightforward military aggression) as well as places like Saudi Arabi, Egypt, and places like Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan. This would put the Russians at an advantage and have the PRC try to make a deal with the Russians so that they could give them support in order to take back China or at the very least project pressure onto the southern Chinese government. A Russian Constantinople is a good one though.
>>48198613I would imagine Japan/Germany would lean heavily towards nuclear/atomic but develop other forms of energy production as experimental tech. This would put the Japanese energy industry at the forefront of the world's tech. I would imagine that with less of a worry about the energy crisis, focus on space travel would increase as well (what with the Japanese focus on robotics and electronics as well)
>>48198286Pretty sure there's usually an intention to use the setting for something most of the time. But mostly I just wanted to know if there were any considerations to make, like what parts the players were going to be involved in.
>>48198185Sure, seems about right. The map someone posted later seems better, because that border is largely around the yellow river and such, which is a very realistic demarcation line considering how massive it is and how hard it would be to break for both sides once you you settle in there and bulit some heavy forts and mine fields. Tibet makes sense because it would be sparsely defended, though i expect heavy anti-communist guerilla activity, considering the RL america funded it. If in this alt-hist the border between east and west is close, the americans might not have stopped their support. They sent the CIA to train tribesmen into anti-commie resistance fighters. If that was the cold war border, Tibet and Central china would be my hottest contestants for "regions 1mm from sparking WW3" with Anit-commie and commi action respectively.
>>48198689It seems as if the setting is leaning towards cyberpunk so possibly that. Maybe set in either East Asia or Germany (Japan or China seem good places for an East Asian campaign). I'm not the OP though so I don't know if he was actually planning to do that.
>>48198716>They sent the CIA to train tribesmen into anti-commie resistance fightersSo Tibet was turned communist by the Chinese but the US sent CIA to train anti-communist guerrillas? If the Chinese Civil War ended in a stalemate and if my geography is right then wouldn't Tibet be within the anti-communist RoC border? The CIA training anti-communist natives seems like something they would do but I don't see how the Tibetan government would go communist. Maybe the Russians would send SpecOps into the country to train communist militants, not the other way around.
>>48198678I would imagine they would sooner or later look towards the renewable energies, because even with them as superpowers, they would still have Papa USA look over their shoulders and hinder their nuclear efforts in fear of Nuclear weapons being made by the looser superpowers put on a leash. This could get annoying enaugh for them to try alternatives like solar, wind, hydro and for Japan geo thermal.Space stuff seems exicting, but it would have to come from Japan, as the USA forbid the Germans from building Rockets or producing Rocket fuel. Another reason why the Germans today are so fond of ESA, they kind of used the loopholes left for them and regeared their efforts to satelites, they use the french to send them up there to cicumvent these restrictions.If Japan goes heavy on Space stuff, that would be another reason for Japanese co-operation, as they could sell the Japanese rocket industry satelites and the internal systems required. Question:>In this alt-hist, does Japan allow/encourage private space operations? In reality Japan does non-comercial, science only and no cooperations.
>>48198884True that, I would imagine Germany would join up with the UN for space programs. I would imagine that many Japanese companies would use space as a testing ground for new robotics/electronic techs. In actuality, I don't know how supportive they would be of privatized space ops. I doubt they would support military/security companies going into space but robotics companies as well as GPS/surveillance companies might have their support.But I agree, most of the superpowers would try to stray away from nuclear as fast as possible because even if American didn't exert their military might like they did IRL, they would still be a force to reckoned with.
>>48198845It's up to you, really. Both are possible. It only happened after the Commies rolled through Tibet. Tibet was independant in all but name, but throughoutly incapable of defending themselves. They could not really pose any resistance when the Commies seized Manchuria and started to roll through the RoC and just handled them as a revolting reactionary province. The RoC had no effective controll or military presence in Tibet, it was sovereign in all but name.The CIA did their CIA things because they are the CIA and because they wanted to cause havok behind Commie lines while there was still an actual fight. The commies turned their attack into a plow to the coast and the CIA saw no use in those shenaginas anymore, as the RoC was thousands of miles away then and locked to Hainan and Taiwan, and then Taiwan only after the capture of Hainan later.In this alt-hist, the Tibetians would still have no way to resist the commies. But with the border so relatively close now, I can imagine the CIA would still try to cause trouble behind the demarcation line and maintain conection to behind the iron curtain so close to the possible action.The commies also have a point to cause trouble in central china with some commie support hot spots in firm grip of the RoC, with no way to take it behind mountains and mountains and mountains and 4 MASSIVE rivers and reactionary strongholds Yunnan and Guangxi in their back. So Western China along the border to Tibet would on both sides be a hotspot for revolt and unrest with no way for the other side to take or hold it in this case.So yes, the Map makes sense, from a strategic point of view and from a "how would the war turn out"-point of view, I was merely pointing out that "beyond this point, there be unrest". This would be a region of interest if you want to play this setting and the cold war is not over.
>>48198845>So Tibet was turned communist by the ChineseNah, just because the PRoC marched in there and painted it red does not make the people believe in it. It is on the "wrong side" of the border, but they definitely do not agree with the Communist government. Kinda like the before mentioned Taiwan and Hong Kong today: China may say it owns them but it really doesn't. Though maybe it could turn into "China's West Berlin", i.e. an isolated part of the Southern China in the North and autonomous.
>>48199081>In this alt-hist, the Tibetians would still have no way to resist the commies. But with the border so relatively close now, I can imagine the CIA would still try to cause trouble behind the demarcation line and maintain conection to behind the iron curtain so close to the possible action.>Though maybe it could turn into "China's West Berlin", i.e. an isolated part of the Southern China in the North and autonomous.I like those ideas.
>>48199102>Kinda like the before mentioned Taiwan and Hong Kong todayKind of like Tibet today still, really.The commies just built a lot of roades and founded new cities along their roads and railways to the Tibetian resources and then resettled a few million Han Chinese there. That's their solution to Tibetian unrest: If we just move so many chinese there that the majority of the population is not Tibetian, they will not cause pro-Tibetian unrest. Blilliant!In this alt-hist, with the only Han-Chinese they have in Beijing and close to the yellow river, that's not really something they could do, so Tibetian resistance would stay high.
>>48188622I'm dumb, how did the land speculation cause the bubble to burst?
>>48199081I'm not OP, nor do I think OP wanted to make a setting just for himself. I do see what you mean though.
>>48199102Ok I see what you mean. Tibet is under communist control but they don't really support the local commie government. I think a West Berlin idea fits Tibet much better though.
>>48199822>nor do I think OP wanted to make a setting just for himselfI kinda want to now though
>>48200277What, make a setting for yourself?
>>48194011You don't have to imagine. They've always been doing that.
>>48200630>China>the country that invented silk production and paper>always copying shitYeah right.
One question we haven't answered yet:>How advanced is military technology?We have confirmed robotics and railguns are a thing, as well as possible electronic integration with German-manufactured firearms. What other sorts of tech will militaries be using in this time period?
>>48196921Russia goes the way China did in our Timeline, limited capitalist reforms while remaining outwardly communist. Thanks to this the Warsaw pact doesn't disintegrate, or else the USSR hangs on keeping most of the Soviet Republics in place.
>>48202219So Russia is a ghost of its former self, trying to retain an image of its past while surrounded by powerful neighbors (aka Germany and Japan)? I like it.
Don't let the thread die!Welp, I'm going to bed so hopefully this will still be up tomorrow.
>>48190301Markets are mature and the return on investment into your own company has diminishing returns. Speculation on things like real estate doesn't (until of course, the bubble bursts, but you have a golden parachute by then)
>>48202387Do you think Russia would support investment in the Trans-Siberian railway by the Germans and the Japanese?If you improved it a bit, you could be shipping stuff from Berlin to Beijing (or Seoul) in five or six days.Could be a source of a lot of money, and possibly quite a bit of discontent if the Russians see the German and Japanese companies doing well off the transit link, and using their own equipment to upgrade it and are bitter about it
>>48206593Nah, really don't think so. Though on the other hand, if the SU has actual power over the PRoC because the civil war is frozen, I could totally see them develop the infastructure in Siberia and even Mongolia too. In RL, there was never much in the way of that between SU and PRoC because the Chinese wanted to go their own way and soured the relations to the SU. With a dependancy on the SU, the SU and the PRoC would probably be very interested to turn the resource rich but infrastructure poor steppes and deserts of Central Asia into heavy industry hotspots connected to the rest of the Communist sphere to give the PRoC a chance to keep up with the RoC. If we use either the of the maps posted here, the RoC has most of the Population, most of the favorable and agriculturally rich terrain, the majority of the people and better and safter access to the global market.The SU would be very interested in building up Central Asia and Mongolia both in infrastructure and industry because it would be their access point to their warm water ports, the chinese market and the resources of the middle east. So I definiatly see them develop the Trans-Siberian infrastructure, even though not to the benefit of Europe and East Asia.
>>48206907Wouldn't Japan and Korea want them to stay out of Asian affairs though? I would imagine they would be quite capable, what with the projection of their militaty as well as softer economic strength.
>>48207382They would have about as much leverage over that as the USA has about North Korea: None. Look, in their own spheres, the other side had NO way of making the other do what you they want. This is still the cold war after all.
>>48207631>The US has no leverage over North Koreakek, the RL USA can exert tons of pressure on North Korea. But I get what you mean. Even if Korea/Japan tried to push the Russians away from Asian affairs, I doubt they would back off, with the Russians being who they are and all.
>>48207382I think they would dabble in the immediate area, SE Asia/ Oceania region.
>>48206907>even though not to the benefit of Europe and East Asia.They'd probably get some of the benefits anyway just by the thing existing, but it'd probably depend how open this version of the SU is to trade and things - upgraded infrastructure isn't to be sniffed at, especially if they need some of their own infrastructure in the area to get the most out of their alliance with the PRoC
>>48208127you do realize the only trade the SU did with the western powers was selling them Methan and such? There would be NO benefit at all for the "Westeners" from this. Do you really think the Soviets would allow them to use their glorious communist infrastructure for capitalist trading? kek
>>48208127I would imagine they would be more open to trade, especially with communism's spread stopped in the RoC and Korea.
>>48188622Fine. What if they DIDN'T invest in housing and instead invested in IT technology instead?
>>48208333which is why I said that the SU under Stalin would then just go through with his southern ambitions that the western allies talked him out of. Take Turkey to scatch that century old itch of having safe access through Istanbul, from where things in Greece and the Middle east could easily escalate to make the Soviets take on Persia, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, before the western allies are in a position to respond. That should spice things up.
>>48208389I think its been pointed out Japanese companies aren't Google, they don't have a RESEARCH ANYTHING blue sky department to toss their money into.
>>48193252Nah. Think more Japan grabbing the demonization torch against China and turning it to 300 degrees Celsius.
>>48208437Glorious Soviet Union will prevail against the Devil from the West.
>>48208641Tenou Heika Banzai!
>>48208416Southern USSR is a good idea and makes intresting play between the Germans and the Russians as well as European politics.
>>48210213I know right? It makes the Soviets weaker on the outset, but later on they find out that they not only controll a lot of sand and a lot of people open to anti-imperialist sentiments that in this alt-hist gets satisfied by communism instead of radical islam, but they also accidentially controll the strategic circle with with 2/3 of the worlds strategic resources. Ooops.They start out weaker but might be able to carry on for much longer with the cold war than they did historically, because they have more resources to fuel their incompetently led planned economy.Another scary thought I just had: If we are getting into sci-fi and cyberpunk here with 2070 and what not, a planned economy run by big data analysis, mass surveilance and administrative AI is a SUPER scary thought, especially because it could maybe even work. Of course, a cyber-SU would prohibit anything like the internet and instead create government limited networks that are constantly analysed and completely lock out anything "reactionary" or "imperialist" instead of going the "Great Firewall" way of having a limited internet. The Communists of the SU were a lot more strict with this kinda thing than the modern "Communist" party of China ever was.Just imagine the Cyber showdown between the futurist Japanese and their allies and the Communist desperatly trying to show that their Communism is best. Kinda like a space race, but instead with computers and Man Machine Interfaces and robotics.
>>48210528>crazy AI communist RussiaAmazing. What if the databanks were in Turkey/Instanbul? This would make it a hotbed for not only illegal hacker activity but also a high priority target for security corps.A couple questions I think we should answer though:>It's already been mentioned that augs are a thing. What are the Chinese's (PRC and RoC) view on them? Korean? Russian? German? American?>What about drones/robots? We've said the Japanese test military drones as well as helper robots, but what about the rest of the world?
>>48210935Well Istanbul has always been full of spies and such, at least up until WWII, so I could see that staying the sameGiven that it's such a huge city - it'd be one the largest in the Union (IRL, the largest city in Europe) - I could definitely seeing it being home to a lot of soviet infrastructure And while I don't know about being particualrly crazy, a computerised (and later AI-run) planned economy might not be quite as weak as the actual one - the very limited implementation of one that happened in Chilie seemed to have worked okay, though it wasn't hugehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_CybersynI think Russian hackers would, like most Russian organised crime, speak their own kind of Fenya, probably mixed in with this world's version of Padonkaffsky jargon - Russian criminals apparently pretty much have their own mini-language, and computer experts can be pretty unintelligible anyway if you don't know your stuff, so I could see that combining in the Technosoviet Vory >>48210528Speaking of the space race, do you think Japan would try for the stars?I could see them doing a lot of robotic stuff, but less manned - just enough to show that they're trying.While the Soviet Union was always doing space things, though they launched from their mainland, Cuba would have been better if they could get away with it - there's a reason the US launches from Florida.Actually, have we thought what Cuba and Latin America are doing?
>>48212480True. I can see it being a major hub of international trade and crime, what with it being a Russian city while being close to Germany and the rest of Europe. The Arabians might want something to do with it as well. The lingo of those living in Istanbul would be a great cultural detail as well.As for space, I think it was talked about that Japan would have robotics and electronics testing/research missions in space, some privately funded and others more publicly funded by the government. A lot of drones and stuff I could imagine. And I don't think we've talked much about Cuba and Latin America. Would America still have their way with them or would that be stifled, especially with the Japanese economic boom and all?
>>48212480>Actually, have we thought what Cuba and Latin America are doing?Well, if the Soviet Union has all the tensions of China/Japan/Korea on their doorstep, plus their main focus on the middle east instead, I'd say their communist support for Cuba would be rather slim or very stretched.I mean what if Bay of Pigs was a success and instead of Castro Cuba would be governed similar to Puerto Rico?
>>48212699Agreed. Little to no communist influence on Cuba. I could imagine the US trying to spread from Florida into Cuba though.
>>48212699Yeah, I was thinking if they had most of the middle east to deal with they wouldn't have as much time for supporting South and Central American regimes
>>48213074But that would leave that area open to American influence wouldn't it? I imagine they would be very scared of the Japanese economic empire (like RL America was at the time) so they might try and strengthen their connections with South and Latin America.
>>48188507>>48188622Damn, son. You just got--B T F OTFO
>>48213250I'd assume so, but I don't know all that much about the region - I just know that quite a few regime changes were encouraged by the US in the cold war - even fairly stable countries, like Brazil, had some junta issues.On the other hand this does make them fairly interesting for a cyberpunk setting - there's a reason that the area was known for Banana Republics, and the origin of the term is in a few of the few IRL megacorps that worked like fictional ones - not just being huge and rich, but also the getting military stuff done.
>>48213819>American megacorps jewing it up in Brazil and CubaI love it. Would South America turn into Africa 2.0 after America sticks their dick in it?
Something I just thought of regarding the religious of the world>Because Russia takes over the Middle East/Turkey, radical Islam never catches on and the majority of the area becomes Eastern Orthadox>Buddhism enjoys a huge boost in popularity thanks to the Japanese and Chinese>Christianity is a minor/secondary religion in East Asia>Judaism fades into irrelevance due to Russian influences in the Middle East>Muslims are persecuted as Christian Russians exert their control on major cities in the region and as a result, Istanbul is renamed to ConstantinopleWhat do you guys think?
>>48216144I wouldn't say that radical Islam wouldn't be a thing or Judaism fading. Muslims are a very large group over there so I doubt they'd be persecuted but they and Jews probably would be shoved to the sidelines as "minorities" for positions of power etc.Kinda like black people, there is no real persecution going on but still an inherent preference for white people on many occasions.But indeed those Islamists which would commit acts of terrorism would target the Soviet Union instead of the "Western Satan" of the US. There would have been no 9/11, but maybe something similar in Moscow?
>>48185231Globally? I can't even begin to imagine. Within Japan? Horrifying. At the height of the bubble property in the heart of Tokyo cost nearly 10x the price of an equivalent space in the heart of NYC. If that kind of pricing was allowed to not only continue but increase it'd be preposterous. Assuming nearly all sectors maintained the kind of growth they'd had in the bubble's growth stage, various companies including the legally registered Yakuza families might well have income higher than the GDP of whole countries.
>>48216399Maybe a Moscow bombing in the wake of tensions rising between Muslims and Russians? This might cause the USSR to crack down on the Islamic community. I do agree that he Jews would become borderline irrelevant though, especially with the Germans in such a large role in the world economy. As for the Muslims, maybe a glass ceiling for them as well as certain jobs (i.e. government jobs) walled off to them? I don't know how willing the Muslims would be to bomb their own city, but an attack on a Russian governmental building (maybe a databank center as was mentioned before?) could be possible.
>>48216455keeping in mind that the poor would be just as poor as ever so there'd be a ludicrous gap in wealth and power to fuel craziness. At least the homeless would have a plethora of giant electronics boxes to build their inevitably massive hobo colonies with.
>>48216532>At least the homeless would have a plethora of giant electronics boxes to build their inevitably massive hobo colonies with.
>>48216532>>48216562>At least the homeless would have a plethora of giant electronics boxes to build their inevitably massive hobo colonies with.Holy shit this is fucking fantastic
>>48193034US (And I'll bet Soros/Globalists) ran around screaming "Remember WWII! They come with money now!" and Australia closed it's legs faster than you can say "Shiver me timbers." Same with the rest of the Pacific Rim.Solve that and you have a eternal economic miracle.
>>48193820You'd need a US General willing to sacrifice blood. (Mao was weak as a kitten when he finally took Bejing.) Or a Nuke.Good luck! Americans hate casualties!
>>48217234>implying anyone would listen to the US when Japan was rich as fuck and had the tech to back it upNot every country is just willing to follow whatever the US says.
>>48217351This happened in reality. Australia was seen a a place to inveast until Aus closed it's doors on Japanese money. Japan 'overheated' and then the bubble burst. Then SK was sold the industry and used the money as a form of national subsudy program. (This is why Japan has 20 years of stagflation.)
>>48217851I was moreso referring to your comment about the entire Pacific Rim than Australia though
Unless Latin America is enough to stave off overheating of the economy...Canada (1980): US Bitch.US: HAHA!Aus: Already mentioned.Unless SEA is kickstarted (risky!) or the Phillippeans (US' loyal long time friend.)I don't see it.
>>48218131>tripfag is a killjoyAs expected
>>48194449>Plus if China never went communist,It would remain the "third pole" because they've almost always had the means to act on their distrust of the West.
>>48199394Not that Anon, but let's see if I can put my working knowledge of economics to work. Ever heard of the Dutch Tulip Boom? Same idea. Money only has any value because it circulates. Stuff has to be brought and sold regularly for things to actually be worth the money you pay for them. So the Japanese, who had been depressing their currency like fuck all throughout the 80's so that they can get sweet American dollars for all their stuff, wound up with a fuckton of money. But it can't just sit there or else it might lose it's value. I heard one time some Japanese outfit bought a decommissioned missile silo and turned it into a massive wine cellar as an investment. But it's more typically land. Land is traditionally a safe investment, so they start buy it. A lot of it. People who sell land know that the Japanese are around in force to buy up stuff in whatever market they invested in, so the price goes up. The Japs need to get rid of their money, so they keep buying. This makes the speculators and real estate agents pretty fuckin' pumped, and it works great for a while. The price keeps going up so the demand is high, and the suppliers keep selling. And this all works really well until someone starts to sell at the high price they paid for it, but doesn't get it. Suddenly money isn't circulating anymore. Prices go down because the process drove the price artificially high, and the Japs wound up turning their money into _less_ money. Their plans for that money go down the tubes, and long story short you have a crash.
>>48218578Weren't we going with China being split between nationalist and communist though?
>>48218160Namefag, get it right.! denotes a trip.
>>48185231OVAs would still be a thing and Hawaii would be Japanese as fuck.>>48200665They also invented Freedom, Liberty, the constitution and US political institutions.With which I mean "guns".
>>48221978Why do you feel the need to tripfag?
>>48214798Even if the US is a fair bit more involved than the OG timeline, I don't think it'd get quite that bad - probably pretty equivalent to how it is now, more or less (if I knew more about Latin America this would help)Though whether there'd still be all the cartels and drug trade and such, that's up in the air. >>48216144I can't see Eastern Orthodox expanding much under the soviet regime - they were officially atheist, after all
>>48188622>There's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more capital looking for investment than there is demand.What if they decided to invest it in space? Like mining the asteroid belt or some shit?
>>48188622How is it that the economic model is in favour of supply?
>>48195414MacArthur being allowed to use the atomic bomb is the quickest answer to how the Korean War ended in the south winning. But if you've got this alternate China at the same time, there wouldn't be a need for it because the north wouldn't have been getting a shitload of support from China anyway.
>>48222304Because it favors producers. Those in charge of the means of production. Turns out if you (the government) lend very cheaply (often at rates below inflation) that money isn't spent on consumer products that drive the market, but instead on investment products (which are important, but already have a glut of money).A Demand side economic policy would instead be directly distributed among consumers. Remember the stimulus checks after 911? Basically that. Of course, that wasn't a miracle cure either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6rSljTwdUthis video seems useful to extrapolate USSR/Russia actions in this AltHis. I'm not Russia nor knowledgeable enough to confirm it but background searching the author makes him seem reliable.
>>48223972What about investors? You might say that it's easier to get investors to part with their money than it is with customers because all investors have to go on is faith in creating demand, while customers don't need a crystal ball to know how to spend their money.So it's easier to ferment a false economy on the investment side.
>>48222105Totally forgot about that. But even if they were offically atheist, was the communist population still religious or was that just completely wiped out?
>>48222496So basically the Japanese-American forces would shit all over the Korean communists?
>>48222145>It's like salarymen....IN SPPPACCEEE
>>48224934Not that anon, but yeah. The only reason the north held out was due to massive amounts of chinese support.
>>48225049Since it was just after/during the American occupation, I can imagine the Japanese forces during the Korean War merely acting as reserve/support forces while the Americans did all the heavy lifting.
>>48223997I'm confused as to how this extrapolates AltHist Russia's actions
>>48224833Hard to say - the EO is the biggest religion in Russia, and survived the Union, but it's more that if you ask people they'll say they're religious, rather than going to church a lot.In the Union it was permitted, but officially frowned upon - you could go to church, but being all public about it probably wasn't a good ideaOverall, and particularly if this Union's satellite states are most of the middle east as well, I'd say religion is a minor thing - you might be religious, but not publicly.
>>48225536Maybe this would cause tensions between the Muslims and the Russians then? Especially between radicals and the more fanatical atheists of the USSR
>>48225580Probably depends how fanatical people got about the USSR, but I'm definitely thinking there would be tensions - depending how far the USSR and their Satellites extends into the Middle East there might be serious issues over the control of Mecca and such. On the other hand, a lack of Israel in there and either Satellite or full Soviet Republic status for a lot of the areas could be quite calming on the region - though the US (and Britain, thinking about how the Great Game worked) would probably be trying to disrupt the region (as the USSR might in South America)I think it's worth noting that Britain and the USSR once jointly invaded Iran to secure a route for Lend-Lease in WWII, and the soviets weren't quick to give what they'd took back (which led to the first complaint filed against a country to the UN) - maybe this time they don't leave
>>48225580>What is the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan?
>>48226960Don't you mean Liberation of Afghanistan, tovarish?
>>48226929>The Brits and Commies work together to roast kebab and jewsFuck yeah
>>48226929I can imagine the Russians turning Islamic holy cities and sites into restricted areas thanks to atheist movements though. Keeping religious influence to a minimum and all that
>>48194009Actually, the Japanese neglected tanks because they were low on oil and had to prioritise the navy over their land forces. Plus, large swathes of China (their main battleground) are basically impassable to heavy vehicles, especially back then.The major reason Japan went to war with the US/Allies was because they'd been suffering through an embargo on oil and wanted secure the Dutch East Indies and the Philippines for themselves to give some degree of self sufficiency.
>>48227156Not the anon you are replying to, but the IJA developed fast and light infantry tactics that were incredibly successful against the Americans, especially when it came to the pyschological aftereffects of night attacks and such.
>>48227046And I can imagine that kind of thing would have consequences later on. Didn't Mexico have a civil war because some brilliance told Mexicans that they couldn't be Catholic any more?
>>48227023Jews? If Israel isn't there, how would they even get involved? After the Holocaust, there'd likely be a push for some kind of state to be given to the Jews, and it would come out of British or French colonial land. If the Soviets are allowed to take the Middle East, then there'd have to be somewhere else, wouldn't there? Who owned Ethiopia after the end of the war? Perhaps some other section of African clay?
>>48227554Wait, so if Israel isn't in the Middle East, where would it be? Africa? Europe? Maybe some British isle?
>>48227844"Does any of you guys need Madagascar?"
>>48227844My question exactly. It also wouldn't be called Israel, for that matter, since it wouldn't share any of the land of the biblical holy land. Maybe some other biblical name that isn't coming to mind. That being said, I'm thinking Africa. Ethiopia comes to mind because there's a shitton of Ethiopian Jews. Giving them a country either in or around that area would probably still lead them to being a Cold War hot spot, since they'd be right across the Red Sea from Soviet Saudi Arabia. They'd also be a major western influence in an area around a number of African muslim countries.
>>48227962Samefag. It just occured to me: Eritrea would work. The British could assign some portion of it after the Italians lose it in World War 2. Instead of the first Arab-Isreali War, there could be a war to take the rest of Eritrea, then formalize relations with Ethiopia. This perhaps does not have happy consequences for the stability of Africa, but what does?
>>48227962This is interesting. Either Ethiopia or Eritrea works (though I personally prefer Eritrea due to its size). I would imagine an Eritrean Reclaimation War happening after the Jews were given a part of the country at the end of WWII. The only question is if Western nations (namely America and the EU) would still send supplies and support to them. The new location and leadership of Ethiopia would also cause tensions between nations like Sudan, Egypt, Kenya, and Saudi Arabia.As for names of this new Jewish country, a quick search on Google brought these up:CanaanJudeaPalestineEretzSamariaOr we could just keep the name of the country in the present day.
>>48228253Meant to also reply to>>48228204
>>48228253Given that the whole reason Israel was made out of a chunk of Jordan in the first place was political capital from the Holocaust, I'm sure that just like in real life, they'd get western support. According to Wikipedia, Eritrea has a fifty percent Muslim population, so the guns would probably flow in thanks to the First African-Samarian War.
>>48228441I would imagine though that there would be some push back as to the Jewish refuges and settlers which would in turn lead to tensions between the Jews and the Muslims. This would eventually come to a head when the two factions' differences would escalate to conflict. With the Muslims trying to push the Jews out and the Jews trying to create a country for themselves. Of course the African Muslims would be supported by the Middle Eastern nations like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, ect... while the Jews would be funded by the Europeans.
>>48228713Probably so. But from what little I know about the subject, I don't imagine your average 1950-1960's African army is more well organized than your average Arab army of the same time period, which is really what the Samarians (I really like that name) would bring to the fight. http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-warsAssuming they win that war and take Eritrea, then there'd probably be a few more similar wars until they reach a standstill. Egypt would eventually stop supporting efforts to push Samaria into the sea for the same reason they stopped in the 1970's: the Israelis made it clear that they had fighters and the ability to destroy the Aswan Dam, and if they didn't stop that shit, they'd drown that fucking country. However, I think this really gets interesting when you remember that they'll be around for the continuing Congo and Angolan wars. With the Soviets unchallenged in the Middle East, Africa would be perhaps even more of a major front in the Cold War.
>>48228925>I don't imagine your average 1950-1960's African army is more well organized than your average Arab army of the same time periodExactly. Especially with European help I think the Muslims would have a hard time resisting the Jewish armies. But I agree, once the initial push of the war grinds to a halt there will most likely be more conflicts in that area. And with Russia pushing to the Middle East instead of towards the Far East, the Americans would have to race against the Russians to stop the advance of Communism there (especially after the failure of Communism in Korea and China). I can definately imagine Africa being the major front of the Cold War. The only question left then would be if other European nations would take notice since it would be so close to their borders. I can imagine Germany trying to take advantage of the situation by selling weapons and tanks to both sides but I don't know about countries like Italy and France, and especially Britain.
Wait, if in this AU Korea was a cakewalk...Would that mean M*A*S*H wouldn't happen?I-I'm not sure if I wanna live in this timeline.
>>48229048This also raises an interesting question: If Africa becomes a major front in the Cold War, would America get involved in a war there, instead of Vietnam?
>>48229114>EGYPT WAS A TIE!
>>48229114I mean I would imagine the Vietnam War would've never happened since the capitalists won the Korean War and the Chinese Civil War ended in a stalemate, with the nationalists holding Beijing.
>>48229188I get that, but I mean at some point would America directly commit troops to one of the many other Cold War proxy war, since Vietnam wouldn't be a thing.
>>48229102Alternative timelines converge towards least necessary difference.Good news: M.A.S.H. still happens, it's just set in Vietnam instead of Korea.Bad news: The laugh track is still there.
>>48229188>the Vietnam War would've never happenedSo, would the whole Hippie/Flower Power movement not be a thing? Would the US be even more militaristic?
>>48229229Yeah definitely. Possible the Cold Wars in Saudi Arabi/Turkey/Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan.>>48229245I think people were talking about the US expanding into South and Latin America. I think the proxy Cold Wars in the Middle East would be a far off thing for many Americas. Remember that there is also the involvement of the US in the Korean War as well as distant deployments to aid the Muslim nations in the Middle East. Possibly the Turks and the Jews. The US would have a much different relationship with the Islamic community though I think.
>>48229230Not him, but I haven't seen it with a laugh track. I'm glad>>48229301Remember that most of those areas are fairly strongly communist in this timeline - Constantinople will probably be the second city of the USSR, after MoscowThe Korea/'nam jungle war vibes can still be kept with South American incidents, though I'm tempted to suggest that the 'nam-replacement might be an even bigger debacle - even more drugs, lots of megacorp involvement saying they bought the war, that sort of thing
>>48229490>Constantinople will probably be the second city of the USSR, after MoscowThe Russians would like that as well. I can also imagine it being a huge hub of trade as commerce comes in from not just Europe, but also from other USSR satellite states. As for the American conflicts in South America, I can definately see American corps trying to profit off of them, especially in Latin America and parts of South America. The natural resources there might even establish the US as a major exporter of goods that other European countries sought after during the Age of Colonization. Lot's a drugs though. Curious to see if the Mexican/Brazilian drug cartels would form or if they would just be illegal/underground parts of US pharmaceutical corps operating in the black market.
>>48229490>Constantinople will probably be the second city of the USSR, after Moscow"Have to rebrand Orient Express to Soviet Express, Ivan!"
>>48229490I'm thinking Congo, Angola, Rhodesia, or something. Angola, I think, has the most potential for African Theater Cold War conflicts.
>>48229761Rhodesia not going belly up would be nice.
>>48229823sup /k/I could go either way on it, but SOVIET INVOLVEMENT in big block letters threatening a western ally might've been a pill that could be swallowed publicly if it were more obvious. In Vietnam the Republic of Korea sent over their commie fighting specialists to aid in the fight, so I imagine the Samarians would do the same here.You put black anticommunists on the front lines with white anticommunists, and it might've nullified the Civil Rights objections in the United States.
>>48229761With African forces so far south, I don't know who would support them. America wouldn't want the Russians to spread Communism down south and I doubt Japan would care about Communism unless Russia was trying to spread it into Asia. Which leaves Germany. Either them or the Egyptians might want to stop the Russians. I doubt the Jews would want to support the South African conflicts either since they would be too focused on keeping their own borders defended from Islamic nations. Which really only leaves the North African Islamic nations, Egypt being a strong example.
>>48229944>sup /k/Blast, I've been had!
>>48229944I still think there would be objections from the US domestically about blacks and whites serving together. Especially if they were white Jews. Also remember that a huge thing about the Civil Rights movement was domestic, not whether or not people of different races should serve in the military in the same units. It was more about social justice and legal equality at home.
>>48230001Right, but if the US were to intervene in the Rhodeisan conflict, you'd need the people to support whatever Administration was in office at the time. And it's easy to paint the Rhodeisan conflict as "White people killing Black People", which would sap an awful lot of support, especially in the middle of the Civil Rights movement. To make it work, you'd need to sell it as "fighting communism", and it'd be easier if Ethiopia helped.
>>48230087While definitely think the American government would sell the conflict as fighting communism I don't think it would have a huge impact on the Civil Rights movement. I think it might be a plus for them in terms of ways to show the positives of race equality, but it might likely die down quickly, depending on how long the war goes on for. I can see what you mean though.
>>48230168The question isn't "would they" but "could they". I think given a little help, they could. Alternatively, or perhaps in addition, if the Russians hold Constantinople, Greece becomes an important potential Cold War hot spot. The Russians would want to expand their strategic depth, and NATO would rather the Mediterranian remain their lake. Expect coups, spies, and the like.
>>48230356Russian spies tries to incite a Communist revolution in Greece sounds really cool, especially with Germany so close by. This would make Constantinople not only a hub of trade and commerce, but also intrigue and spying, especially since it would become one of the largest places in the USSR. I doubt war would break out in Greece like it did in Africa or the Middle East though, but there certainly might be some riots and protests against the capitalist government.
>>48229944>>48228253>>48228441>>48228925Sorry to burst your bubble, but the only way notIsrael would be called Samaria is if the notIsraelis were trying to emphasize that they're in a more or less hostile country which isn't really their own. Same goes for Canaan and Palestine, all those names come from the names of peoples that the Israelites didn't get along with terribly well. You've probably heard of the "good Samaritan"? He's called that because Israelites tended to think of Samaritans as bad folks.Judea was a part of Israel.I don't know anything about Eretz one way or the other offhand.
>>48233564>implying I was operating inside a bubble at allI was lost for names so I picked some off the first result I got on google. I was just taking shots in the dark. There was no need to be a dick about it.
>>48234042I didn't mean to be a dick, nor to imply that you were operating inside a bubble. Where I come from, "sorry to burst your bubble" means that I'm sorry to tell you something that will ruin the fun you were having or anticipating; I guess it doesn't mean that where you're from.I fully understood that you were just taking shots in the dark from google, I was trying to inform you that some of those shots missed their mark, including the one you liked the most.I'm sorry if I came of sounding harsher than I intended.
>>48234153No it's ok. And it wasn't as if I was expecting fun to be had off of the names or anything (despite the enjoyment I have from worldbuilding). The purpose of me listing out those names was just to get some people start to talk about the names for this new Israeli nation.
>>48187163But the US military invented internet. Japan had nothing to do with it.
>>48235139>implying the internet could've gotten as far as it did without computer processors and electronics the Japanese created
>>48235270right they just starting building that shit without internet and then whoa! all that work into building shit did something.i think american was also building shit like that otherwise we wouldn't have invented the internetbut sure lets make japan no better then elves and go on about how great the shit other people built is but take credit for it.
>>48235411whoa there amerifat lets not get our hamburgers in a bunch
>>48235411>no better than elvesit all makes sense now
>>48193969They originally were generic third-world dictators, then Taiwan needed to have an actually industry and they became an electronics industry.
>>48235270You mean the designs they stole from American tech firms, and copied to sell at a cost undercutting everyone else because they just go "fuck copyright laws".
>>48229188Ho Chi Min was active before WWII, the IndoChina war would still happen, though maybe without Chinese support.
>>48230472Yeah, Constantinople would be a major deal in pretty much every sphere for the USSR - I also can't see war breaking out in Greece, but there'd probably be a lot of posturing and espionage
>>48238004What do you mean? Sorry I don't know much about the war.
>>48240570Indeed. A lot of threats and posturing but not a lot of action to back it up.
Can we call this setting Asiawave?
>>48242732Why Asiawave?I've actually been thinking up names and the only good one I've come up with is Cyberpunk 2077
>>48216455Massive japanese hive cities complete with sections that amount to muli-trillion dollar urban castles that take up huge swathes of vertical and horizontal real estate, run by Zaibatsus and Yakuza families with the spending power of small nations is classic cyberpunk/dystopia future. And it fucking rocks.
>>48243378>Japanese hivecities built on artificial islands with megastructures ruled by the high class Yakuza elite that have control over whole markets of the Japanese economy>Not to mention the advances in medicine, cybernetics, electronics, robotics, and technology in general that make Japan a futurist's dream
>>48243378>>48243571Japan needs to be the focus of more cyberpunk settings. It's not done enough (at least in the one's I read/play), especially Shadowrun.
>>48243724>It's not done enough in Shadowrun>The global currency is the nuyen, Japanese slang is everywhere, the Yakuza are just as likely to be in your hometown as the cops, and the Japanese skipped over Pearl Harbor and just went right on to San Francisco. What more do you fucking want?
>>48244043Little to no information is given about the inner workings of Japan and most published campaigns are set in the US.
>>48243724>GiTS>Akira>Patlabor>Neuromancer et alNot everything on the list is "cyberpunk", but it all deals with a technologically advanced future Japan and the conflicts therein. Are there any other similar works out there (barring stuff like RTS games or Infinity where it's just a stereotypical aesthetic and nothing else)?
We should write a setting world doc/timeline. Unfortunately I'm terrible at these. Anyone have any suggestions for a template I could follow or better yet someone that wants to do one?
>>48244481>>48244444Dude that shit's quints get it right
>Japan invades communist states with explicit approval of world powers>Japan buys off pacific islands from colonial powers and builds new megacities on every hunk of otherwise useless land, making neon lighthouses all over the pacific>Japanese culture spreads at a breakneck speed through the western world and the pacific>Japanese scientists excel at their profession, making more and more new scientific words that relatively quickly turns english terms archaic, like english is doing to current languages.
>>48245087>Japan invades communist states with explicit approval of world powersI doubt other Western countries (especially America) would allow Japan to invade other countries, even if they were communist. I also don't think they would have any place to expand TO. Besides the nearby northern China and the territory they hold, the only nearby country would be Russia but I doubt Japan would try to incur the wrath of a world superpower that has its grip over the majority of the Middle East as well as parts of Africa. If anything, I think Japan would try to expand its sphere of influence to other capitalist countries, like southern China, Korea, Southeast Asia, ect...
>>48245087This sounds super interesting, any ideas of what sort of words would be Japanese words instead of English ones?
>>48245087>Japan invades communist states with explicit approval of world powersNot really a fan of this one - in any scenario imaginable, that's a world-wrecking war The soviet union can coexist fine in a cyberpunk setting, and this thread has outlined pretty well a fair few details about the USSR in this timeline
>>48245087Going a bit too far I think.
There's some pretty cool stuff in this thread, just a couple unanswered questions I think we could flesh out.>We've already established religious relations in the Middle East and Africa (Jews get moved to Ethiopia, Russians take over the Middle East and there are religious tensions there between the communist atheists and the Muslims) but what about Europe and Asia? I would imagine Buddhism would enjoy a boost in popularity in East Asia, probably in the capitalist countries like the RoC, Korea, and Japan.>What's the military's relation with the public? Are security corps prefered over the military in Japan? What about Germany and Russia? America? I can see German security/defense corps becoming very wealthy/popular.
>>48245414Eh, I think the part about the Japanese making new cities on pacific islands is a good idea and Japanese culture spreading like wildfire is basically a given in this new future. Japanese words replacing english ones is a nice touch too.
>>48245369>>48245305Japanese war in Vietnam instead of American.>>48245319Nanomachinery being called Chiisanology or something like that. The Japanese word for small.
>>48245829Would the Russians have still tried to turn Vietnam communist if the capitalists won the war though? Especially after China was split in half following the Chinese Civil War.
>>48245897Probably. The eternal altaic spreads his influence world wide.
>>48246036Not the anon you are replying too, but wouldn't the Russians be too busy with expansion in the Middle East and Africa to worry about some tiny Asian country?
Does anyone have a bullet list of details about the setting for when this thread inevitably dies? Also, we seriously need a name for this.
>>48249518I'm saving the thread and will repost it sometime this week when I drew up a few maps and outlines for the setting/althistory.
>>48249681OP here. I would appreciate that. Would you like me to create a google drive and I can post the thread whenever you have those finished?
>>48194421Samsung actually does a whole lot more than electronics. They're a conglomerate that bundles about 20% of SK's entire GDP under one brand name. They even have an amusement park.
>>48187416I think you mean robots
Ok so for anyone that's interested, I just made a google doc for all the world details of the setting. Just make a comment I'll be sure to add it in.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xVFbFnROjO4Tz1YOoX9SaiYO-PxBdNR9IBCd_1cCcjU/edit
>>48185231Space elevator, and moon bases.
>>48251093>Colonize the stars for the Emperor!It's just like 40k
Don't let the thread die!
>>48191723>The bubble would mean budgets would make Kabaneri-looking tier stuff happen far more often.Kabaneri only looked good for the first two episodes, after that they used five tone shading only in a few very short mostly still scenes (all closeups) sprinkled throughout. Otherwise it actually looked super fucking average.
>>48254950>five tone shadingI thought they used four tone shading.