so who or what were the ancient baatorians
>>34338430Guys who existed before Asmodeus and his guys crashed from the heavens, apparently.Supposedly as old as the Obyrths and Baernaloths, they retreated into the darkest corners of Hell once Asmodeus and his gang decided to clean house. What remains of them either got trapped on the material plane (such as Zargon, according to the Elder Evils), or they retreated underneath Malbolge (since there are underground tunnels there where even devils fear to thread, according to Fiendish Codex II) and Cania (where the devils uncovered dozens of frozen cities buried deep beneath the ice with something still living in them, again according to Fiendish Codex II). What else is known about them is that, according to Planescape fluff (which got retconned later on), if you leave a petitioner on Baator long enough without turning him into a Lemure (a Baatezu), he naturally turns into a Nupperibo (a Baatorian) which furthers the claims that the Baatezu are invaders in hell (which fits with the whole Asmodeus fell from the heavens in order to fight the demons story).Some rumors about their Lords exist - apparently they became so evil and powerful that they didn't need bodies anymore. They became disembodied minds merged with their domains, floating around and controlling everything. Basically, they became one with their circles.Also another rumor is that the Archdevil Baalphegor, Mephistopheles' consort, is one of them - since she's strong enough for Asmodeus to respect her, even to the point that he keeps Mephistopheles alive despite him constantly taunting Asmodeus because of her. She invented over half the strategies and techniques the Baatezu use everyday, she's a notoriously cunning diplomat and strategist (even Bel asks for her counsel on matters of war), and is the strongest spellcaster in the Hells (next to Armaros). She's also given enough freedom to just leave the Nine Hells whenever she sees fit, and she's left them apparently for good.
There was a Planescape adventure where you come across a nupperibo in the process of finally evolving/transforming into an ancient baatorian. What it is isn't clear, but it does seem a bit Lovecraftian.Whatever the ancient Baatorians were, they are to the devils as the obyriths are to the tanar'ri.
>>34338751Zargon does look a bit Lovecraftian, yeah.
>>34338766Devils, despite their appearances, at least looks like things you can discuss with (not counting the Lemure).That guy looks like the lovechild of Khorne and Nurgles in roid rage
From the Greywiki:> Before Asmodeus led his followers to the Nine Hells, there already existed an even older race inhabiting the plane. It is wrong even to call them "creatures," because they actually the essences of powers and beliefs from an unimaginably ancient age. They still exist scattered about the plane, their presence virtually unknown and unknowable. Occasionally they take on physical form in Maladomini, drawn by some mysterious reason to the catacombs beneath the layer's ruined cities. There, they are virtually unkillable monstrosities that absorb all light.> The ancient baatorians evolved from the nupperibos, fleshy, bloated fiends who were both blind and deaf. The nupperibos evolved from the larvae that came to the plane long before there were any mortal spirits. Legends say the first larvae were created by the yugoloths, who cast off their lawful and chaotic taint in the form of writhing, spiritual worms that became the first inhabitants of the Nine Hells and the Abyss. Tales From the Infinite Staircase features an "advanced nupperibo" that has been kept captive for centuries until it evolved tentacles and the ability to vocalize and see: the next stage in their evolution to a mature ancient Baatorian.> When Asmodeus and his followers—who would become known as the baatezu—came to the plane, it is said (in Faces of Evil) that most of the ancients had already vanished or hidden themselves away, but Elder Evils tells us that their king and father, Zargon, still ruled a kingdom of running slime and rampant evil. Determined to have the plane for their own, the invaders butchered or enslaved those ancient baatorians who remained. Asmodeus battled Zargon, but found him resistant to most of his attacks; Asmodeus could destroy his flesh, but he would always regrow from his indestructible horn. Finally, Asmodeus cast the horn of Zargon to the Prime Material Plane, where it was buried deep beneath the earth.Continued in next post.
Continued from >>34339092> However, the larvae still evolved naturally into nupperibos, which continued to evolve into mature ancient baatorians. To put a stop to this, the baatezu began the ritual of routinely transforming larvae and nupperibos into lemures, the beginning stage of their own race, or into imps. Those nupperibos who are not transformed are sold to the yugoloths or slaughtered. This continues to this day. Powerful devils who fail their masters are transformed into nupperibo form for a period of humiliation until they believe the wretches might be productive again.> The dogai, or assassin devils, existed as shadows of malignant will before the baatezu came. Rather than figure out how to slay the formless creatures, Asmodeus ordered them melted down in a pit of fire and given new forms, tasked with slaying mortals who defy the devils' will. They are now considered a caste of baatezu, but their origins were earlier.
>>34338430>THIS IS BULLSHIT! YOU CAN'T GROUND A PC!
>>34338430>ACCORDING TO MY RECORDS, YOU HAVEN'T BEEN FLAYING THE SKIN OF THE INNOCENT! WHAT's WRONG, SON? SICK?
>>34339092>people thinking Asmodeus couldn't win>kill Zargon instead and keep him down so Asmodeus doesn't have to trouble himself>just as planned.jpeg
>>34339730That's my theory too.Asmodeus could've killed the dude, but decided that having him out in the open is more beneficial. After all, Asmodeus couldn't kill him, right? That means he's not so tough, right?
>>34339775It's could also be that Asmodeus couldn't kill the guy, so he decided to make the most of it, forcing the Material Plane to endure a great evil, making the mortals' life worse, until some of them decides that being evil is the solution.Powerful, smart, charismatic, with a memorable presence: Asmodeus is a great villain. Except in Pathfinder.I wonder how he will be in 5e.
>>34339886Whatever the case, he's been using Zargon all this time. If he could kill him, then he's spreading rumors how he's weaker than Zargon so his enemies underestimate him. If he couldn't kill him, someone out there will start worshiping Zargon and their souls will end up in hell.It's a win-win for him.
>>34339775The last time somebody rebelled against Asmodeus because they thought he wasn't so tough, it ended up with a brutally crushed rebellion, and all that saved Mephistopheles was that his wife is Baalphegor, else he would have had a truly hellish fate waiting for him.Although the one thing Asmodeus truly loved (his wife) was shanked by Levistus as part of it, I think. In such a way that she can never be resurrected or revived, too, since her soul is annihilated/obliterated.
>>34339965If he ever cared about Bensozia at all, that is. He's the Lord of Lies, he could've made that shit up as well.There was some fluff in some Dragon magazine how the only reason he made Glasya at all was because she would be free to wander the planes and spread his evil where he couldn't reach. Basically she's a tool, nothing else - similar to how Belial treats Fierna or Mephistopheles treats his half-fiend daughter Antilla.Same part also mentions that Levistus had a thing with Glasya (he was the heartbreaker of the Nine Hells, after all) and that part of Glasya wanting to murder his ass is because he broke her heart.
>>34340024Levistus is too cold-hearted to be trusted. It was her own fault.
>>34340024We don't know a whole lot about Bensozia. She was loyal to Asmodeus, supposedly, and Levistus killed her when she refused to help him, thus earning his iceberg punishment. He hasn't taken another consort since, and Glasya has his blessing to kill Levistus as long as it's lawful. One can draw their own conclusions on whether Asmodeushas cause to be lying. And the best lies have truth in them somewhere, if you can find it.
Only one ancient Baatorian has ever been named and properly identified, and strangely enough it happened long after the general fluff about that race was gone from the sourcebooks. Also interestingly is that the entity in question didn't even originate in AD&D setting...The Lost City was a Tom Moldvay module published in 1982 where the PC's found the titular lost city of Cynidecia where a debased and decadent breed of humans worshiped their primeval devil-deity, Zargon. Now The Lost City was a Basic D&D module, meaning that it took place in the Known World, which at that point was quite different and distant from AD&D and its Great Wheel. Later on, during 2nd edition, the Known World became Mystara and was properly translated into the Great Wheel cosmology - this meant that by inclusion, so was Zargon. However the one-eyed monster (yeah) was not identified as an ancient Baatorian until Elder Evils, one of the LAST products for 3rd edition, published in 2007. In that product (and in a previous Dungeon adventure), the Lost City and its progenitor had been sort of eased into a "generic" D&D world rather than being specific to Mystara, and Elder Evils easily postulated that it could be inserted anywhere.What's interesting is that the backstory about Zargon battling Asmodeus is all new for that product. Originally Zargon had no connection with Asmodeus or the baatezu, because those concepts didn't exist in basic D&D. So obviously the writer of Elder Evils did this was a way to connect Zargon to the Great Wheel and specifically to refer back to the scraps of lore about the Ancient Baatorians that were included in various Planescape products.So here we have a monster from a basic D&D module in the 80's, revived in the 00's and connected backwards to a race of creatures created in the 90's.D&D is an odd place, sometime.And yeah, he really is the literal one-eyed monster.
>>34340024To be fair, Asmodeus seems to genuinly care about his daughter. At least as a valuable subordinate.
>>34339965More recently, Baalphegor amused herself by taking the form of a cute, blonde-haired human girl of the apparent age of 10 and living as an orphan in the small town of Caermor.
>>34340141He's the next one to go. He's been steering into NE territory for a while now - making deals with Yugoloths and other ice-related creatures (that king of evil ice elementals, forgot his name), acting like a dick to everyone because that iceberg he's trapped in means no one can hurt him and so on. Installing Levistus back as the Prince of Stygia was a great move - everyone's too busy monitoring him to try and figure out what Asmodeus is really planning to do. Hell, everything after the Reckoning was a great move. He puts Mephistopheles and Baalzebul back into their office, knowing that they'll be too busy plotting against each other instead of plotting against him. He keeps Levistus to draw attention. He installs Glasya as the Duchess of the Sixth so he has one Archdevil who will always be loyal to him. He lets Fierna take over Belial's throne, which leads to half the nobles of the Fourth to divide their loyalties between the two. Mammon and Dispater are too terrified to do anything against him, and Bel is too preoccupied with the Blood War to do anything in general.>>34340208See, according to that same fluff that has Levistus be Glasya's former lover, Bensozia hated Asmodeus' guts but was too afraid to do something directly. Hence the "she was loyal to him" part. So she decided to help the only guy who would dare to openly stand up to Asmodeus - and that is Levistus.That part about Levistus breaking Glasya's heart? Glasya walked in on Levistus fucking her mom, loses her shit and kills her. Martinet (Asmodeus' constable) stumbles upon the murder scene, and decides to pin it all on Levistus.Asmodeus hears about this, puts Levistus in an iceberg for daring to plot against him (not because he was boning his wife and daughter) and sends Glasya to Mammon's court, from where she'll begin plotting revenge against her father.And that plotting leads to the Reckoning.
>>34340388Baalphegor is the best Archduchess.
>>34340208While it's not terribly informative about motives and plans, let's see what the original appearance of Bensozia has to say.Like almost all of the consorts, dukes and other assorted fiend royalty, Bensozia originated in Ed Greenwood's two-part article "The Nine Hells" printed in Dragon Magazine #75-76 (1983). Unlike many articles in Dragon, this two-parter attracted Gary Gygax's attention, and since Gygax liked it he reprinted an abbreviated version of the information within in the Monster Manual II, published later the same year. I'm fairly sure there was some communication between Greenwood and Gygax on this, but whatever the backstage reason, Greenwood's political landscape ended up being canonized and has been the source for every description of Baator's nobility since.Now let's see.Bensozia (Queen of Hell)"Bensozia is the consort of Asmodeus, and staunchly supports her mate. She is personally the most powerful of the consorts, but her influence is entirely linked with that of Asmodeus; it is said that "Bensozia speaks not, save by the leave of the Great One." Bensozia seems happy in her position, although she is not always physically with Asmodeus but her natural manner is coldly polite and haughty, seldom revealing her true feelings. She bears a brass scepter that does 4-16 damage to all creatures of good alignment, 3-12 damage to devils, and 28 damage to others. Empty-handed, she strikes with her hands for 2-12 damage. [Paragraph about spell-like abilities and spells omitted here]Description: Bensozia is a tall, statuesque, human-appearing devil. She has long white hair, large glistening black eyes, scarlet skin, large brown hooves, and a forked tail. She always wears loose black robes with a scarlet silk lining within, and as Queen of Hell, a diadem of beaten gold set with large rubies (total value 26,000gp)."I really like her physical description, kinda eerie. Shame this was the most information she ever got.
>>34340484It's a shame there isn't more info about the various nobles of Hell.Here, have a Bensozia.
>>34340533Definitely. I think the problem is that any given fiend sourcebook will pretty much spend itself talking about the Lords of the Nine themselves and have little to no space left for anyone else. Look at the third party books, which were the most extensive sourcebooks on fiends ever (BOVD, Fiendish Codex). They don't even have room to cover the deposed lords Geryon and Moloch. Hell, we STILL don't know what Moloch is doing after his ousting (Geryon's been tangentially covered). Hell, after being around for about 20 years we still don't know -anything- about Archduchess Zariel.Not even the nobles whom Gygax considered important enough for statting in MMII are usually covered anymore. Glasya is a Lord now so she gets in, but Titilvus, Bael, Amon and Martinet rarely get any page time other than a namecheck.
>>34340390> He lets Fierna take over Belial's throne, which leads to half the nobles of the Fourth to divide their loyalties between the twoI thought the two implicitly shared power over the Fourth (and sex)>Asmodeus hears about this, puts Levistus in an iceberg for daring to plot against him (not because he was boning his wife and daughter) and sends Glasya to Mammon's court, from where she'll begin plotting revenge against her father.> He installs Glasya as the Duchess of the Sixth so he has one Archdevil who will always be loyal to him.Isn't that contradictory? Is she plotting against him or is she loyal?
>>34340604Moloch was described a bit in Dragon 360 and was mentioned in 361, if I remember correctly. Dude's been stuck on the first layer of Avernus and massing an army and trying to gather as much outcasts as he can. His goal - retake Malbolge. I've no clue if he's still loyal to his old master Baalzebul or not. Tartach, his former legate and Glasya's current consort, is apparently terrified of the idea of the guy storming the Sixth, since he's apparently one of the greatest generals the Hells ever had.Amon recently had an entire article devoted to him - guy's stalking Stygia with an army of wolves and killing Levistus' minions left and right. He's apparently still fiercely loyal to his former master Geryon and wants to see every other Lord pay for what happened to his master during the Reckoning. Glasya sponsors him in secret, while the other Lords try to ignore him as much as they can.The others got a namecheck and some fluff dropped for them. Martinet, Titilvus, Bael and Lilith were described alongside Tartach in the Dragon magazines 360 and 361. Others (mostly related to Glasya) had their own articles over the years.As for Zariel, we never really knew much about her. There are some sources who state that she's a fallen Celestial called Apollyon who fell by choice in order to punish the wicked (that's how zealous she was) and other claim that she was Tiamat's daughter. Zariel is also stuck in Bel's fortress where he drains her slowly over time of her powers - apparently Asmodeus kept her as the Lord of the First and didn't pass on the Lordship to Bel so he can keep him on a short leash.
>>34340731Fierna is the official Lord of the Fourth, while Belial rules from the shadows. Half the court is still loyal to Belial (because he's the smarter and more charismatic one) while the other half is loyal to Fierna (because they expect her to kick Belial and his followers out once she figures out how to be a proper ruler - which is an idea Glasya gave her).As for Glasya, she has no allies inside or outside the Nine Hells besides Asmodeus. Every other Lord knows that she's responsible for a lot of shit, and they'd like to repay her for all the trouble (especially Baalzebul - she took away a good part of his court and is partially responsible for his transformation into the slug form), but they can't as long as she has Asmodeus' protection.So, she's loyal to Asmodeus because he protects her from retribution and will do his bidding, but she's also plotting to take him down once she consolidates her power and has the strength to do so. There is also mention that Asmodeus would be really disappointed if she wasn't planning to kill him - devils are weird like that.
>>34340484Thank you a lot for sharing this!Yeah, Bensozia definitively sounds awesome.>>34340533>It's a shame there isn't more info about the various nobles of Hell.That so true. I'm always sad when potentialy interesting characters and monsters never get the spotlight. Just look at the Yugoloth. Or the Demondand.On the other hand, I suppose it does leave rooms for GMs to create their own interpretations.>>34340604I agree with you. Apparently, Moloch was last heard in the adventure "Apocalypse Stone" and in an article in Dragon magazine.
>>34340604>Hell, after being around for about 20 years we still don't know -anything- about Archduchess Zariel.In the various games I've played in across the same setting Zariel was Torm's second in command basically but a god-destroying gnome charmed her into attacking him so he struck her down to hell where she got a sweet job before Bel usurped her.Every party we've played that has reached high levels and been antagonistic towards Hell has nursed plans of freeing/redeeming her but it never happens.Torm meanwhile went crazed and decided to go live in the Abyss and become a god of crazed slaughter.And at least our first party nursed schemes of punching him in the dick and asking what his problem was, but again they never came to anything.Fun background fluff though.
>>34340780>Dragon 360Dammit all, I knew I should have looked up the digital-only issues. For some reason I never did, mostly assuming that they were dedicated to 4e material, but I see here that 360 has James Jacobs' last Demonomicon entry as well as the archdukes. Thanks for the heads-up!Zariel is interesting from a development standpoint. Originally the Lord of the First was Tiamat - this was stated in no unclear terms in 1st edition AD&D. Then after the big upheaval, once they got to reintroduce the Lords of the Nine suddenly we got Bel. It took them a few Planescape products to actually reveal the names of the 2e Lords, but Bel was one of the first to be detailed. And even then it was said that he deposed his former mistress to ascend himself. Zariel was not actually named (that I know of) until Guide to Hell by Chris Pramas, which also introduced the Reckoning. Since then Zariel has received the obligatory namechecks in BOVD and the Fiendish Codex, but never (to my knowledge) a proper lore entry. Long time to go without one.My personal canon is that she is indeed a fallen celestial just like Triel/Baalzebul, and that she was the first and mightiest of the Erinyes.Also as a side note, I always thought it was a shame that two of the coolest consorts were the ones to be retroactively killed off - Bensozia and Cozbi, Geryon's consort.
>>34340858>So, she's loyal to Asmodeus because he protects her from retribution and will do his bidding, but she's also plotting to take him down once she consolidates her power and has the strength to do so.Typical devil loyality, then.>There is also mention that Asmodeus would be really disappointed if she wasn't planning to kill him - devils are weird like that.True. Speaking of which>>34340780>>34340604Didn't Geryon got shived because he was too fixated on the Lawful part of the LE alignment?
>>34340898You're welcome. The 360 and 361 issues were still for 3.5e, while the later ones were for 4e, but had some cool stuff in them. They're listed under Codex of Betrayal, so if you decide to check them out, search for that.Zariel usually gets mentioned alongside Bel as the one Lord he betrayed (and Bel will never live it down). And that she was the first lord to strike in the Reckoning - she mustered a large army under the pretense that it's going to be marched into the Blood War, but then she stormed Dis with it and took everyone by surprise.I also liked Cozbinaer. She appeared later on in some adventure - badly wounded and trapped inside some suit of armor that kept her alive. That's probably also when she met her end at the hands of some adventurers.Naome was interesting too, especially considering how she was relatively normal compared to Belial and Fierna who are the greatest sadists in the Nine Hells. An interesting idea I saw somewhere said that Belial and Fierna are actually one being - Fierna is just an avatar of Belial he made in order to check who's loyal to him and who isn't.>>34340907>Typical devil loyalty, then.Yep.And Geryon did get exiled because he was "too loyal" to Asmodeus, which was considered a weakness.He did get an article in some Dungeon or Dragon magazine, not sure which exactly. Apparently Geryon went insane in exile - he figured out that Asmodeus didn't exile him because his loyalty was bad, but because he was the only Archdevil he could trust with an important task (but didn't mention what that task is).He figured out that Asmodeus trusts him to realize what his mission is on his own, and that he will be allowed back in the Nine Hells once he accomplishes it. And apparently that mission is something so unspeakably Evil that Asmodeus himself doesn't want to be associated with it.
>>34341329>He did get an article in some Dungeon or Dragon magazine, not sure which exactly. Apparently Geryon went insane in exile - he figured out that Asmodeus didn't exile him because his loyalty was bad, but because he was the only Archdevil he could trust with an important task (but didn't mention what that task is).According to the "Tome of Magic", Geryon becames a vestige after the Reckoning. He supported Asmodeus, but he was ignored when other devils were rewarded for their services.The "Tome" suggest it shattered the faith he had in himself, and that Asmodeus absorbed his soul (as he is the predator of those who lose their faith).
>>34340533She looks... well, cultured. I could see her as a consort to Asmodeus.
>>34340731>Is she plotting against him or is she loyal?Yes.
>>34341613His (and the Hag Countess') essence were absorbed by Asmodeus and then passed on to Glasya, to empower her and make her the official Lord of the Sixth.According to Dungeon #176, he spent countless ages confused and disheartened in the Astral as a Vestige, but then managed to somehow pull himself back together (similar to Orcus and Tenebrous) when he found a new purpose in life.
>>34341760Thanks for this .pdf>>34340390See, according to that same fluff that has Levistus be Glasya's former lover, Bensozia hated Asmodeus' guts but was too afraid to do something directly. Hence the "she was loyal to him" part. So she decided to help the only guy who would dare to openly stand up to Asmodeus - and that is Levistus.That part about Levistus breaking Glasya's heart? Glasya walked in on Levistus fucking her mom, loses her shit and kills her. Martinet (Asmodeus' constable) stumbles upon the murder scene, and decides to pin it all on Levistus.In 3e, Levistus killed her after she ignored him, and Martinet told to Asmodeus. In 4e, Glasya killed her and Martinet said it was Levistus.
>>34341987The Levistus killed Bensozia story is considered official by the Baatezu. The rumors circulating around Hell say that Glasya killed Bensozia because of Levistus, and that the story about Levistus killing Bensozia is a cover-up.Basically, chose what you want to be true.
>>34341987Man, I really failed at greentexting here.
>>34342097>The rumors circulating around HellWho started the rumours?
>>34342143Probably the other nobles - not directly, of course, they have their minions to do that for them.It must be boring spending eternity plotting and torturing, they have to pass the time somehow.
>>34341329Yeah, I'll have to take a look at them. I was not happy with the 4e Demonomicon entries that I checked out, but probably some of the others were alright.>ZarielYeah, most of the info about things Zariel actually did and where her allegiances lie are from Guide to Hell by Pramas, a late 2e product. BOVD and FC usually just kind of mention Bel usurped her and keeps her captive to leech her essence. Interestingly there's several versions of that, too. Begging for an adventure, really.>CozbiTo my knowledge, the statement that Levistus destroyed her when he reclaimed Stygia is the canon explanation (Fiendish Codex II). I could see her surviving by hiding in exile perhaps, but it seems unlikely anyone will revisit her.>NaomeAnother one who was killed retroactively, like Cozbi and Bensozia. She was actually not mentioned at all when Guide to Hell brought Belial back, nor did Monte Cook namecheck her in BOVD. It was only in FCII that it was noted that "some say Fierna has taken her late mother Naome's place as Belial's lover". As you say, the interesting thing about Naome was that she was kind of a middle-aged, laid-back devil, if I recall right. I can always punch up the Dragon issue again. Of course, devils and shapechanging and that, but it's an interesting image to project for such a creature. Makes you wonder why she and Belial ever got together.I'd love to see an actual product or issue quote for these "rumors" people keep posting. Like, are these from a 4e product or just things people saw on a forum, or what?
>>34342837About Belial and Fierna? Some rumor from the WotC forums from ages ago.Naome was described as pretty mannish for a female devil (she originally appeared as a beautiful golden woman, then as a husky red-skinned devil with human-colored skin on the parts of her body that she showed off when dealing with mortals), to the point that she appeared androgynous. There is alsto the fact that she didn't mind the rumors of Belial getting it on with Fierna, her coming up to the idea that Fierna should replace Belial on the throne which he accepted, and that Belial and Fierna apparently have never been seen together in public.Combine all that, and you get the impression that the two are the same Archdevil.
>>34343349There's no hint of any of that in the official books, though. In 2e there was only Fierna, as Belial was probably seen as too Satanic to be included in those post-scare days. Only with Guide to Hell was he reinstated and it was revealed Fierna was his daughter. And I'm pretty sure it's been said they're not at all shy about being seen together.
>>34343608Again, it's just some theory I saw posted ages ago on some forum.And it seems too similar to what Mephistopheles did with his Molikroth persona. I doubt that the same trick would work twice in Hell.
>>34343670It does, yeah. And besides, Belial being the shadow power behind his own rule sounds pretty fruitless as a scheme.The interesting question is how Naome died, and why Belial was ever together with her.
>>34343349>(she originally appeared as a beautiful golden woman, then as a husky red-skinned devil with human-colored skin on the parts of her body that she showed off when dealing with mortals)Oh my.
>>34343829Technically, it could work. Belial can focus on doing whatever he had planned on a cosmic scale (apparently he's working on mastering his own version of Hellfire that's more elemental in origin compared to Mephistopheles' as well as expanding into Stygia), while Fierna deals with everything on the home turf.Though his plots are put on hold until he gets his daughter back under his control.As for Naome, apparently (according to Dungeon 197) she got killed by Glasya. Belial and Naome noticed the growing tension in the Nine Hells and the frequent clashes between Mephistopheles' and Baalzebul's forces, and figured out that the best way to calm everyone down was to organize a raid on the Abyss. So they convinced the other Lords (Naome is famous as a diplomat and she did most of the talking) to muster their armies and put them under Zariel's control.Glasya, still furious about the whole Levistus thing and wanting to fuck with Asmodeus, kills Naome. This puts Belial over the edge, and he orders Zariel to march her armies on Dis. And so the Reckoning happened.In short, Glasya's a bitch.
>>343440114e really made Glasya responsible for everything, it seems
>>34344049Yeah.Apparently they thought that she wasn't established enough, so hey, why not make her responsible for everything that happened in the recent history of Hell?On the other hand, she's pretty much screwed if she ever loses Asmodeus' protection. Every other Lord wants her dead.
>>34344011It seems odd that they put so much emphasis on Glasya in that article. I mean I realize that each fiend article needs to present its subject matter as really badass, but if you go back to her introductions Glasya was never presented as being some super-smart schemer. She was Asmodeus's wild daughter who was fucking various other archdevils in fruitless attempts to piss off daddy. Hell, even 3e had her not be the agent of her own empowerment, it was clearly stated that it was Asmodeus who had schemed to make her an archdevil in order to get her under control.Making her some Machiavellian schemer feels a lot like Canon Sueing.
>>34344211True, she never was some brilliant schemer or anything similar. She showed promise during her stint as the Leader of Erinyes, and that was mostly it. She served as Mammon's chief consort (a position no one contested because of who her father is) for a while, and before that she was stuck in Nessus doing nothing.Then again, it is said that the entire thing was orchestrated by Asmodeus. Everything she did during those times, she supposedly reported to him.Speaking of Mammon, after Levistus, he's apparently the next one to go down. His chief consort Glwa and his senechal Focalur (who's actually running the show there since Mammon's too busy enjoying himself) have decided to set up some guy Bael as the next Lord of the Third, with them being the puppet masters pulling the strings.
>>34344211>>34344661It can all be charted up to 'Asmodeus did it' and 'Just as planned'
>>34344661Asmodeus is probably planning to eat her or fuck her or something to gain more power.You know, you'd always expect Mephistopheles to be the first to go in ANY situation, given that he not only has the ambition but openly swaggers and brags about how he will rule Nessus soon. And also engineering multiple plots to get ahead.Then again he does end up as a barmaid, so...
>>34344211>>34344661>>34344832>>34344848To be fair, she was genuinely competent in 3e. Not the most powerful or the smartest devil, but she pulled her weight, and did deserve her promotion to Duchess.The 4e fluff makes her looks like a bratty, moody shithead who wanted to make everyone's life shit in high school, somehow managed to beat them at their own game, and then landed a big job on Daddy's company just because-
>>34345020>The 4e fluff makes her looks like a bratty, moody shithead who wanted to make everyone's life shit in high school, somehow managed to beat them at their own game, and then landed a big job on Daddy's company just because-Well, that sounds legit for the world of devils.
>>34344832Business as usual.>>34344848That's probably what's going to happen. 4e hints that she's the key for Asmodeus to break free of the curse that binds him to the Nine Hells (at least, that's the speculation), while in the Fiendish Codex II he kept her around to establish more control over the Nine Hells (Glasya's ascension to Archdevildom wasn't so she gets more power, but to show how Asmodeus can easily kill and dethrone every other Lord he wants as well as to get her under control).And yeah, you'd think that Mephistopheles would be the next one to go, but then you remember that all he does is basically posturing. His court is a chaotic mess where no one respects him (hell, the pit fiends of Cania are loyal to him as long as he has one dude serving as his enforcer), his cult is among the smallest ones (he's confused with Asmodeus half the time by the infernalists) and he's invested way too much into Hellfire research and gained too little (what's worse, his enemies have began using his secret weapon against him).No wonder Mephistopheles is always angry. FCII mentions how he appears as a calm and collected noble when appearing in front of others, but then flies into violent rages the moment he's left alone, swearing and cursing everything.
>>34345106Now I wonder who would win in a fight between Mephistopheles and Juiblex
>>34345106Depending on where 5e takes Asmodeus. He was a bit more aloof in 4e since they made him a deity proper (insert Serpent joke here). I could definitely see him maneuvering Glasya into a position where sacrificing her for power would enable him to move up in the world. But then again, he probably could never truly escape because Baator is part of him, now. Unless he could... maybe make Glasya take his curse instead and go off and sit on a beach somewhere? IDK.At least they never canonized "The politics of Hell". If we had had to deal with Asmodeus being an upstart and weaker than his old master as well that would have really fucked everything up. Actually that article was one of the reasons that Dragon magazine began "cleaning up" its own material and making it so that it would be stuff they COULD print in a sourcebook even if they probably wouldn't. The move more towards "100% official content". Compare the early wooly wild issues with the Orgy rules, Politics of Hell and weird reader-submitted monsters to the Ed Greenwood days with sombre lore articles, Ecology of and such. It was a huge paradigm shift.Mephistopheles is amusing to have around, at least. He's appropriately enough the most Faustian of all the Archdevils, and that's a fun archetype. I'm still kinda miffed they made him red-skinned in 3e, though. I thought it was a nice departure to have him blueish black.
>>34345741I wonder how 5e will interprete him, too.At least it would probably be better than Pathfinder's version.
>>34345740I always wanted to see Asmodeus and Demogorgon fight.>>34345741Well, according to the Fiendish Codex II, Asmodeus' goals are fairly simple.First, consolidate his power over the Nine Hells. To do that, he established Glasya as the Archduchess of Malbolge, gave Phlegestos to Fierna (an inexperienced Archdevil) and frightened the other Lords into submission by just blowing up the Hag Countess.Next, spread Evil and Hell itself. This one is pretty obvious - he gets more power the more Law and Evil are spread throughout the Multiverse. However, if we're doing the Planescape thing where belief makes things real, he's also working on spreading Hell itself. People believe he's the King of Hell, and that belief makes it real - Mephistopheles and Baalzebul can try to wrestle power from him, but in the end they'll always fail. However, because he's the King of Hell, he can also never truly leave it - the same belief that empowers him forbids him from leaving.Finally, deal with the Abyss. His goal is to pause the Blood War and redirect it from being fought on the Law-Chaos axis to being fought on the Good-Evil axis. He wants to topple the Heavens, and for that purpose he's been making an army in secret. Remember how he fell from the heavens and his wounds now bleed eternally? Those same wounds also create pit fiends who are fiercely loyal to him and who will make an appearance when the Apocalypse (the Good-Evil version of the Blood War) finally begins.So maybe Glasya has no ulterior purpose but to serve as another one of his tools. We'll see where they take the whole story in 5e.
>>34346340>Finally, deal with the Abyss. His goal is to pause the Blood War and redirect it from being fought on the Law-Chaos axis to being fought on the Good-Evil axis. He wants to topple the Heavens, and for that purpose he's been making an army in secret. Remember how he fell from the heavens and his wounds now bleed eternally? Those same wounds also create pit fiends who are fiercely loyal to him and who will make an appearance when the Apocalypse (the Good-Evil version of the Blood War) finally begins.This wasn't actually in the FCII. The idea of Asmodeus being a gigantic primordial being who lies bleeding at the bottom of Serpent's Coil was only mentioned in Guide to Hell and briefly (as a rumor) in BOVD. It's not even vaguely hinted at in the later publication.
>>34346879Fiendish Codex II, pages 73 and 74.
>>34346340>I always wanted to see Asmodeus and Demogorgon fight.That'd be awesome, too.We can build this. We have the technology.
>>34347039Nothing about the Serpent there, mate. Just that Asmo fell from the heavens.
>>34347099But I didn't even mention the serpent? Only that he bleeds pit fiends and that he wants to usurp the heavens.You mean the part about shifting the Law-Chaos towards the Good-Evil conflict? That was worded poorly, sorry.He does want to deal with both demons and the celestials, though - but apparently his desired end-goal is godhood, and he can only achieve it after he deals with the Tanar'ri first.
>>34347168The part about him wanting to achieve godhood. It's funny how he sorta stumbles into it by sheer chance after the whole Spellplague fiasco.
Should we do the maths for a fight between Asmodeus and Demogorgon?I think that could be great
who is the equivalent to asmodeus in the upper planes?
>>34347416For the Celestial Hebdomad (the guys in charge of the LG Archons) it's Zaphkiel, the Tome Archon of Mysteries.For the Five Companions (the guys in charge of the NG Guardinals) it's Talisid, the Celestial Lion.For the Court of Stars (the guys in charge of the CG Eladrin) it's Morwel, the Queen of Stars and the Lady of the Lake.
>>34347540Fucking Guardinals. Not even the WotC guys likes them.
>>34347540I'm gonna say: we almost never hear of those guys.
>>34347630Because adventures in the Upper Planes are hard to devise and would be either boring (for Good characters, because no killing) or no way of survival (Arcadia and attacking Evil people for no reason besides them being Evil).
>>34347630That's actually a thing Paizo has succeeded in, giving us some fun choices with Chronicle of the Righteous.Still, the lack of contested realms (Carceri, Gehenna) really hurts the setting, since they decided to just make abyss into "everything goes", but forgot the charm of interplanar conflict. A few more Hells would also be nice.
>>34347608Yeah, they were dropped from 4e.>>34347630Not much to hear about them. The Hebdomad are too busy governing Celestia and serving as teachers to the other Archons, the Five Companions are an adventuring band travelling the planes and fighting Evil (but are mostly content to chill on Elysium), and Morwel is one colossal fuck-up.That, and what >>34347763 said. It's hard to include them in your adventure unless your players are actively looking for them. Morwel made an appearance once in 3e, in some adventure that had the players go to her court in order to beg her to help them deal with Demogorgon.
>>34347800Paizo's big idea to reinvent Asmodeus was to make him a misogynist. I'm not impressed.
>>34347763That reminds me, isn't there a spot on one of the upper planes that's an evil shithole swamp cause a Baatorian is imprisoned there?
>>34347823Belierin, the third layer of Elysium.And it's not known if it's a Baatorian or something else entirely. The entire layer serves as a prison for legendary evil creatures - I think the original Hydra (the one from the Greek myths) is also trapped there.
>>34347812>and Morwel is one colossal fuck-up.oh?
>>343478004e dropping most of the border planes was silly as well. Throw everything into the Abyss and Baator! It's too complex to understand other forms of evil!
>>34347822Well he was the Devil.
>>34347630It's mainly 'cause the good outsiders hang in the background and let the good deities take the spotlight.Evil deities on the other hand are totally sidelined by the whole Blood War clusterfuck.
>>34347894Morwel is the Eladrin's ancient queen, probably the only one they ever had, and all she's known for is having dozens of consorts over the years (now reduced to two) as well as fucking up whenever she deals with the Abyss.Long ago, after some giant cosmic war which resulted in the Obyriths defeated for good, she decides that it's the best move to send her armies into the Abyss and purge its evil for good. What she didn't notice are the dozens of Tanar'ri, who she decides to ignore only to focus on their masters. This results in the Tanar'ri rising up, killing both the Eladrin and the Obyriths in the process, and her losing a giant part of her forces.So basically, she's indirectly responsible for Demogorgon, Graz'zt and every Tanar'ri Prince there is.Pale Night, an ancient Obyrith Lord, decides to take revenge on the Eladrin and tricks one of Morwel's consorts (and Morwel as well) that Eladrin children are in danger, and that she can protect them. This results in an entire generation of Eladrin being trapped in the Abyss for Pale Night to torture and eat. When they figured out what happened, the Eladrin consort and an entire army swooped down into the Abyss to save the children, only to be slaughtered like pigs. This led to another never-ending war, in which thousands of demons and celestial fight over one Abyssal plane for those trapped children whose numbers have only been diminishing over the years. Morwel lost several other powerful Eladrins (who were also her consorts) just in that place alone.Then she also almost lost one of her current lovers, Gwynharwyf, to Demogorgon during some raid on the Abyss which also went wrong for them.She's too busy fucking around to do any good. She's even forbidden the Tulani (basically the Eladrin equivalent of pit fiends) to directly interfere in the affairs of mortals, since they apparently aren't noble or wise enough.
>>34339886>Except in Pathfinder.Wut?How is he in Pathfinder?
>>34348029So?Why would the Devil favors one gender over the other? He'd be an horrible monster to everyone equaly.Asmodeus is LE incarnate. Having him being petty like that don't make him more threatening, it makes him patheric. Like if you had the CEO of a major corporation known for dumping nuclear wastes anywhere who'd still go break his ex's windows because he can't get over her.
>>34348160He's Satan... and he's disrespectful of women, too! He hates girls and their badwrong cooties.
>>34348248What?So like... that's his big thing now?Misogyny?I mean does gender even apply for something like that?
>>34348267That what I'm saying.He literaly calls a bunch of hyper-powerful devils Whore-Queens because he can't stomach to have Dukes of Hells be women.I repeat. Incredibly powerful shape-shifting enbodiments of evils are ignored because Asmodeus doesn't want girls in his clubhouse.It's fucking ridiculous
>>34348406Well Whore-Queen sound almost biblical to be fair.I mean it's a pretty silly characterization to have him be that petty about something, if that is what they are going for, but if that's all then it's not that much worse than the other things they've done with Asmodeus over the years.
>>34348469>I mean it's a pretty silly characterization to have him be that petty about something, if that is what they are going for, but if that's all then it's not that much worse than the other things they've done with Asmodeus over the years.That's exactly what I'm saying. What Paizo did to him was just silly.Especially when they have a god running around whose hobby is to torture people until their mind and flesh are horribly warped.
>>34348629>>34348469>>34348406>Paizo in charge of writing evil characters
>>34348834Now I am quite glad that my fluff point of view is mostly Planescape + selective bits of 3.X and that I never had anything to do with either Pathfinder or 4e.
>>34348152>She's even forbidden the Tulani (basically the Eladrin equivalent of pit fiends) to directly interfere in the affairs of mortals, since they apparently aren't noble or wise enough.This is hilarious, considering her massive incompetence.
>>34348267Paizo is appealing to the SJW crowd with that one, clearly.
>>34349022I dunno, eladrin are really fucking squishy. Probably best they stay at home.I once used that Book of Exalted Deeds spell that reverses the alignment of summons (so if an evil wizard summons a fiendish wolf it becomes a celestial wolf and turns on him) while fighting some demons and so we got a friendly ghaele instead of a glabrezu or whatever. Fucking thing got oneshotted. You should've seen the elf's face.
>>34348933I think PF's version of Lamashtu fills a need.
>>34349132funnily enough, there was a major good-aligned god in pathfinder who disapproved of homosexuality (erastil, a rustic god of farming and community, with a preference for traditional family values). don't know if it's been brought up recently, though.
>>34349147Mechanically, they're supposed to swap in and out of being annoyingly incorporeal balls of light to avoid being squashed, but yeah.The little BoED familiar eladrin were pretty cool, though.
>>343404274 years later and still makes me laugh.
>>34348933What is wrong with Asmodeus in 4e? Should he have stayed as some evil proto-divinity?
>>34349235I generally tend to do this for fertility deities."I don't really care where you stick it, as long as there are offspring. Would you mind dropping some kids at some point, please?"
>>34349592Honestly making him the god of magic in Forgotten Realms was just inexcusable.Now magic is evil and the setting is fucked.Not that all the other shit they did to FR was any better of course.
>>34350012People care about Forgotten realms?
>>34350012Is Asmodeus god of magic in Forgotten Realms? He devoured Azuth and took his divine essence to become a deity but not of magic.I could be wrong, I don't follow Forgotten Realms.
>baatoriansHow do you guys pronounce this? Bay-Ah-Torians?Baaa-Torians?Bah-Ah-Torians?Bat-Orians?
>>34349921If they're both infertile, would the God be against banging homosex or incompatible species d'you think?
>>34350012Fuck forgotten realms.If they explicitly kill every named character in the setting, then we can talk
Were the ancient Baatorians actually mentioned outside of Tales from the Infinite Staircase in 2e? There's nothing about them in Planes of Law, I think, and I can't find anything in Faces of Evil: The Fiends.
>>34350278in a D&D context, temples of the fertility god would probably have methods of curing infertility for exactly this purpose.
>>34350330Check the thread. Zargon is mentioned as an ancient Baatorian (that is, one of the things that came before the devils) and he appeared in a few adventure modules.Otherwise, I don't remember that they made an appearance as monsters with stats (because, according to the fluff surrounding them, they have ridiculous regeneration and are virtually unkillable things that devour light itself). They have been mentioned as things living under the ice of Cania, in the tunnels beneath Malbolge, or in ancient ruins beneath Maladomini.They are mentioned as something older than the Baatezu and things even the devils fear.
>>34350216I don't believe Asmodeus was ever a God of Magic in Forgotten Realms. Even after consuming Azuth in 4e, I believe he simply took the portfolio of Graz'zt, a minor deity of intrigue and betrayal. And he is no longer a diety in 5e. He's returned to being a demon, while several gods in Faerun have been revived inexplicably.Bhaal, Bane, Myrkul are all back, as are Azuth, Deneir, Leira, Helm, Tyr, Savras, Talos, and of course, Mystra. At least according to this list at the back of the PHB, which might simply be there for example purposes. But if you recall, besides the Dead Three dying during the Time of Troubles...Mystra was murdered by Cyric, which caused 4e and all sorts of terrible shit.Savras died when Mystra died and her demiplane collapsed on itself.Azuth escaped to the Ninth Layer of the Abyss, where Asmodeus ate him.Deneir wrote himself into the Weave to try and keep it from totally unravelling a second time.Helm was murdered by Tyr in a fit of jealous rage.Tyr was killed after he gave up his deific powers out of guilt for his crime and heroically sacrificed himself. Lathander evolved into Amaunator, so technically he was dead in 4e. And Amaunator is more interesting anyway.Leira was killed by Cyric wielding Mask, though there were always rumors that she was just faking because what better illusion than faking your death?Talos was actually Gruumsh in disguise all along, according to 4e, so he was just a figment of our imagination. And Velsharoon, lich god of Necromancy, is still dead after bursting into flame for no reason and leaving his corpse on Faerun.
>>34350434If I recall, description of Cania also had something about having blocks of ice in which one could recognize an angelic being fighting against something with many spikes all over the body. I think it was somewhere said that it was caused by ice bombs used during that conflict and it froze opponents mid battle.Also, I'm pretty sure that Kytons are not Baatezu and predates their coming, so they might be related to Baatorians.
>>34350517Oh wait, a quick Google tells me that Asmodeus was the Greater Diety of Sin. And that's it.
>>34350517>Mystra>NGWhy do they keep doing this? Also, whatever happened to Asmodeus being one of the Super God Serpents who eventually fell and whose old body formed the Nine Hells?
>>34350517watMask is chaotic neutral now. Drasek Riven wasn't chaotic neutral..................................................................................................HMMMMMM
>>34350434There's also the Mother of Demons and some other one mentioned as being an ancient Baatorian. And I think Ghaunadaur has some rumors about him being linked to them in the fluff, though he's meant to be an ancient, inscrutable entity.
>>34350517>Leira>Lliirawhat these two goddesses have the same name, only spelled different.
>>34350628Mask has been Chaotic Neutral for at least 2 editions, counting 5e as one.
>>34350590>Also, whatever happened to Asmodeus being one of the Super God Serpents who eventually fell and whose old body formed the Nine Hells?what edition was that?
>>34350517Don't forget, all the drow gods but Lolth and Ghaunadaur, who isn't really one but has some mad drow worshippers, are all dead.
>>34350517>several gods in Faerun have been revived inexplicablyThey retconned 4e into never happening. There's no such thing as the spellplague anymore.
>>34350590During 2e, there was a bit of a fluff pissing contest between the various writers. As 2e had the completely retarded idea of making gods into the Powers, which are basically omnipotent, to be noteworthy you'd have to write just about anything as either blocking the Powers or as being superior to the Powers.All the 2e shit about "this is a doublegod! nah this is an overgod! this is a megagodzord!" retardation has one place: the garbage.
>>34350579Yeah, they generally appeared as tentacled slug monsters.As for them being frozen mid-battle with the Celestials, it's possible that Cania wasn't always the frozen hellhole it is today. There are entire frozen cities down there, with their inhabitants still intact and frozen in ice, aware of everything that's been going on. I think it was hinted that Mephistopheles uncovered Hellfire in one of those cities, and that it is the primordial essence of the Nine Hells from before Cania froze over.There were also reports of devils hearing maddening laughter in collapsed tunnels beneath Malbolge during the Hag Countess' reign, even though anything trapped in them should be buried alive. Considering how apparently the ancient Baatorians had ridiculous regeneration (and according to something I found online the only way to permanently kill one is through a Wish or a Miracle), I wouldn't be surprised if they're still alive, only imprisoned.If so, there's probably a couple of them in Carceri, since that is the dumping ground for Evil and forgotten things all across the planes.>>34350646I heard that they were tied with the Illithids somehow, and that their Greater Deity Ilsensine is apparently an ancient Baatorian.
>>34350686Looks like 2nd Edition, Guide to Hell.
>>34350679Are you trolling? In 3.5e, Mask is neutral evil. In 4e, he was dead, but chaotic neutral didn't exist in 4e. 5e is the first time he's had this alignment. He's also NE in 2e.
>>343506864e. >>34350666Lliira is a Welsh name. So you pronounce it Schaeira, or something.
>>34350754I thought all the shit about Ao and the guy Ao served and so on was 3e?
>>34350785Really? Because I'm pretty sure the Forgotten Realms wikia still says he CN, but that it hasn't been updated for 5e at all yet. I know he was NE in 3.5e and before.
>>34350790>Lliira is a Welsh name. So you pronounce it Schaeira, or something.I'd like it if this was true, but the 2e Faiths & Avatars says this.
>>34350800I'm fairly sure Ao and the Wall of the Faithless (ergo horseshoeing Greenwood's Christian believes into the game) was an AD&D innovation.
>>34350844it says neutral evil?
>>34350517Graz'zt was never a deity, just a demon lord.>>34350590>Also, whatever happened to Asmodeus being one of the Super God Serpents who eventually fell and whose old body formed the Nine Hells?4e created a 'revised' cosmology that distilled some of the more important or interesting parts of previous editions with room to add new parts to the back stories of deities and other planar beings. They went with the fallen usurper angel, I am guessing, because overdeity serpents didn't fit with the 4e gods, primordials, and primal spirits being of comparable power. Also ties with Lucifer.
>>34350686Second edition, from the book Guide to Hell.
>>34350873Then I guess they decided there needed to be a deity for non-evil thieves to pray to.
>>34350885I'm sorry, I meant Gargauth. But I was wrong, as Asmodeus was just God of Sin.
>>34350885>Graz'zt was never a deity, just a demon lord.Grazzt fucked Waukeen and stole some of her power or something
>>34350933damn gurl waukeen is hot
>>34350933He didn't steal her divinity, though.Kinda like Mephistopheles stole some of Mask's powers in that Erevis Cale book, but didn't become a divinity himself.
>>34350753But why are Bhaal and Myrkul back then?
>>34350983yea i know, but he's still pretty fucking awesome. look at waukeens tits!
>>34350922Ah, that makes sense since Gargauth was an archdevil and his portfolio is what Asmodeus should have as a god.>>34350933The Harlot's Coin heresy?
>>34350933>Although he has not yet achieved divine status, Graz'zt is worshiped by many monstrous races, most notably the lamias. Many of his high priests, known as the Chosen, are female, and the rituals they perform are violent and involve themes of darkness and betrayal. >The Dark Prince is a deeply sexual, erotic being. He is known on many worlds only in legend, as a dark figure who visits witches and sorcerers, granting them sexual favors as well as magical powers. As a result, his female consorts have populated the multiverse with a depraved host of half-fiend children. He definitely fucked her.
>>34350754>As 2e had the completely retarded idea of making gods into the Powerpretty sure that was a planescape thing. they were called powers rather than gods because some people in the setting didn't consider them "real gods", and they were more powerful because you were moving from localised manifestations of the gods (on the prime material) to the realms of the gods themselves.
>>34351049>The Harlot's Coin heresy>This heretical schism of Waukeen's faith taught that Waukeen had gradually sold off pieces of her divinity and virtue to Graz'zt in order to finance her church. They believed that it was for failing to pay her debts to him that Graz'zt imprisoned her during the Time of Troubles. These heretics taught that Waukeen earned her freedom only because she finally paid her debt to the demon, resulting in Graz'zt owning the majority of Waukeen's godhood. The heretics therefore believed that all who worshiped Waukeen were really worshiping Graz'zt instead, and they were content with that arrangement.FR has a habit of these heretical little cells being proven right in the end. hell he might be a secret god after all
>>34351099Also: >This manufactured impasse gave the Dark Prince time to work on his master plan: to find a way for his daughter Thraxxia to possess, control, or impersonate Waukeen well enough to fool the gods and elevate Thraxxia to be the new goddess of wealth.Was apparently the original plan, and when that failed he decided to fuel the heresy.
>>34351055Graz'zt - the greatest fucker in the Abyss.He has also been masquerading as Malcanthet and sleeping with Kostchtchie in order to ruin what remains of her reputation.
>>34350858>ergo horseshoeing Greenwood's Christian believes into the gameyou might be reading too much into this. a christian in forgotten realms would also end up on the wall of the faithless (because being christian would mean rejecting worship of any of the gods there).
>>34350857But why the double L's, Greenwood? Why?>>34350731Considering Eilistraee is Greenwood's fetish deity of choice, they'll probably come back in some form?
>>34351099The big three demon lords (Demogorgon, Graz'zt, and Orcus) are the demons most commonly worshiped, so I can see it happening.Orcus is the one who is actively pursuing godhood, with the whole Tenebrous/Last Word phase. Given that he had godhood but not as himself and is now trying to become a deity again, it would be amusing if Graz'zt succeeded instead.
>>34351219What if you worshipped/believed in a dead deity like Amaunator et al?
>>34351219Illmater or whatever is pretty christian
>>34351225Don't see why they're not all gods. If some random ass half-incompetent tanar'ri like Lloth can become a goddess, pretty much anyone with any power should be able to.
>>34351240Kelemvor relaxed the punishment of the faithless quite a bit. if you were a good person but didnt worship a god you could still have a "decent" afterlife in the not-so-terrible section of the City of the Dead, i think if i remember right
>>34351253only AO can approve someone becoming a god, they have to be given a portfolio and no two gods can hold the same portfolio (for some reason)
>>34351253Lolth was already a goddess before she was condemned to the Abyss.Demogorgon almost succeeded in becoming a deity (or something worse) during the whole Savage Tide campaign arc. Apparently the plan was for him to consume an entire world, fuse both his minds into one, and become the King of Demons instead of a mere Prince. And he'd gotten away with it too if it wasn't for Orcus, the Eladrin, Malcanthet and a few others messing with his plans.Basically, they fail because adventurers stop them from becoming deities.
>>34351316Who would want to God of Demons? They'd be plotting to steal your divinity all the time, and you'd actually need worshippers to survive now.
>>34351368King, not God. Basically the same power level, without the whole pesky business about needing followers and shit.
>>34351429anyone with legitimate AO-granted divinity needs followers or they weaken and die
>>34351253In game, Lolth is the main deity worshipped by a humanoid race that performs a lot of religious rituals and prays to her. The big three don't have as strong a hold over the societies of their worshippers nor as many.Out of game, Lolth was either a deity or demon lord first depending on edition. A lot of the evil humanoids like orcs and troglodytes have one god that is prevalent in their societies like Gruumsh and Laogzed. Also, I think the religious anti-D&D scare during 2e influenced whether or not demon lords were actually gods.
>>34350517You guys know the story of how Bhaal came back, right?Adrian (The Player Bhaalspawn) gets randomly attacked by Viekang, who is present in Throne of Bhaal as one of the only people you can save during the siege adventure by casting fear on him and causing his innate powers to teleport him away. They fight, one of them turns into the Slayer, murders the other, goes on a rampage, is stopped by adventurers, and Bhaal's divine essence returns to the Outer Planes to start over.
>>34351455Again, he wasn't getting divine status, he'd only become ridiculously strong - strong enough to challenge a God.And it didn't take place in FR.
>>34350590Because having the god who controls one of the most powerful forces in the universe be Chaotic Neutral is too edgey for TSR/WotC
>>34351490odd thing is, Mystra is perfectly fine with liches and demiliches and all kinds of evil magic, as to her they are just scholars exploring the great mystery of magic. she should be TN
>>34351246he's a jesus expy, but not actually jesus, so a christian would have to reject worship of him.
>>34351526Well, that's why Velsharoon existed. You can be CG and still let people of all alignments use magic.
>>34351534hes Jesus' incarnation in the FR universe. elsewhere he masquerades as a large talking lion
>>34350777>I think it was hinted that Mephistopheles uncovered Hellfire in one of those cities, and that it is the primordial essence of the Nine Hells from before Cania froze over.Well, makes sense, given that Nessus wasn't a thing before Asmodeus.
>>34351224>But why the double L's, Greenwood? Why?The AD&D Deities books weren't written by Greenwood, so who knows if he even thought about that or not when he wrote it in the 1e Campaign Setting.
>>34351274Not fair towards the people who were not good, though. Which caused Ao to bring some verbal beating on Kelemvor and telling him to bring equality on this punishment, by bringing it back.
>>34351455Good that Ao matters only in one Crystal Sphere, which is not the case with many gods that exist on many words. Lords of Nine and Demon Lords alike are not bound to Toril's Crystal Sphere, so Ao can go suck a dick.
>>34351891No, Asmodeus' fall caused a big hole in Cania that is Serpent Coil now. Which is why I prefer to believe in the Snake thing.
>>34351982I thought he made the eight and ninth circle as well. You know, since Baator was Celestia inverted.
>>34352016It was inspired by Dante's Inferno. Celestia is inspired by Dante's Purgatory mixed wit h Dante's Heaven. Hell, Gerion was initially based on Gerion from Dante's Inferno.
>>34350790Mofo, in 4e Asmodeous was a heap-big Fallen Angel who killed his god and in so doing turned his personal "heaven" into the Nine Hells.
>>34352185>Angel>able to kill their god
>>34352242He got some sort of superweapon, I can go find my Manual of The Planes if you need details.
>>34352310Nah it isn't terribly important, I can search for myself later if I'm interested. Actually I probably will even though 4e lore isn't that important to me.I really just felt like posting YHVH.
>>34352348>>34352310>>34352185Also interesting in that it's implied to be the creator god of humanity, which is why they don't have a patron deity like the elves/dorfs/etc.Also probably why Tieflingland got its start.
>>34352558Zarus is the one true god of mankind.
>>34345741>I thought it was a nice departure to have him blueish black.I think that Dispater was always of similar color. Though he was more metallic.
>>34352558The Devils that formed the pact with the rulers of Bael Turath might have chosen a human kingdom partly out of a dim ember of ancient loyalty to their old boss?...interesting.
>>34352725Or Bael Turath was already worshiping Pre-fall Asmodeus.
>>34352742I read somewhere, but it might have been in Essentials, that Asmodeus did NOT approve of their shenanigans, and not only killed them all but wiped out every trace of their existence except Tieflings and Infernal-Pact Warlocks.
>>34352833Clearly they fucked up, then. Or specifically because they remembered who he was.Just tossing out conspiracy theories here.
>>34352725>Bael TurathChange it into Bal Turath and it will sound much more Jewish. Here is your answer.
Where can I find 5e's material on Forgotten Realms? I want to see this shit for myself.
>>34352975Dungeon Master's Guide or, alternatively, the Campaign Setting book.
>>34353003Those are out already?
>>34352975FR is 5e Base setting, DMG and PHB will probably have info.
>>34352642Zarus was the first human, ascended to godhood upon death.In such a circumstance, He Who Was would be the one who made Zarus.
>>34353030No, and that's the point.>>34353034PHB is already out, there's some info in the appendices at the back.
>>34349219Because fertility deities aren't allowed to be good aligned? Somebody at that company has serious issues to work through on that topic. The amount of "pregnancy is ickybadwrong" is kind of bleh.
>>34351526She can promote her beliefs however she likes. She just has to allow everybody equal access to it regardless rather than forcing them to play by her rules.Pretty reasonable, honestly.
>>34351526She tried to prevent giving magic to evil people, the other gods threatened to slap her shit. Same time frame as Kelemvor tried to do away with the Wall of the Faithless.I believe the relevant book is The Trial of Cyric the Mad.
>>34353411magic is available to everyone, she's the embodiment of magic, she should be neutral. even pathfinder understands this
>>34353519No, Mystryl was the embodiment of all magic, and she was Chaotic Neutral.Mystra is just the inheritor of Mystryl's powers, an ascended human.
>>34353547The spark of divinity lying dormant in the remains of Karsus should have been reignited by Midnight when she was killed by Cyric in 1385 DR. The greatest wizard ever to walk the earth is now the Lord of Magic, locked in a vicious war with Shar over the fate of the Netherese Empire...
>>34353713As badass as that would be, I don't think we want Karsus back.Think about it, the moment before he died he inherited not only all of magic but the ability to see through all of time and space and realize that he just fucked up everything forever and was powerless to stop it.It's canon that his remains still have the psychic imprint of the utter soul crushing depression of that realization and that just being around where his body fell to Toril causes people to become suicidal.
>>34353256Honestly why I like Forgotten Realms' thing on Fertility, where the goddess of farming and agriculture is NG and her dogma specifically says if you're not keeping your wife continually preggers you're doing it wrong.All of her festivals involve knocking up your girl as well.And then her lore also states that this is her in a more controlled state, since back in the Netheril days she was far wilder.And while typing that, I remembered why people say the Forgotten Realms are the original magical realm.
>>34345741It made perfect sense for him to be blueish-black. Mephistopheles is famous because of Faust, and while the most celebrated costumes were red, Mephistopheles himself actually describes Hell itself as cold. Or at least I recall that being a notion of Hell associated with Mephistopheles. The basic gist is that God/Heaven = The Sun, light and warmth. Hell, as the farthest point from God, is ergo a place not of fire, but cold.
>>34353256I'd argue that they're trying to appeal to the opposite, actually; pregnancy is supposed to be a process of birth that is natural and beautiful. As such, it makes an easy target for body horror. Lamashtu is supposed to be an incarnation of the monstrous feminine, after all.
>>34347763I once had a great campaign where the players became ultimate undead monsters and besieged Elysium with the help of Nerull.Epic level evil campaigns are something else, let me tell you.
>>34348406That doesn't make sense at all. I love Golarion, stupid tone-clashing and all, but that's just... what? I'll come out and say it; I'm a godless liberal faggot (except not really godless... or a faggot... and really more moderate) that usually approve of Paizo's world decisions, but this is just -stupid-. These are transcendent shape-changing entities. Unless they're all based off of formally mortal souls (please god no) than this should be a non-issue.I mean any form of prejudice is based off of societal factors and definitions founded off of inner constructions of the identity of self. So what fucking standard of masculinity are devils using? Do other outsiders use standards of gender? When did they start using them, and why? At the dawn of time, did one energy being say to another energy being, "Right; I'm gonna ' make it so that I have a floppy tube hanging between my legs with my boys on the outside. You make it so you've got a foldy thing with all your shit on the inside. Now let's control the universe based on that."It's just dumb.
>>34351080>pretty sure that was a planescape thingyes... planescape is a 2e setting... hence why it has 2e stuff in it...
>>34351219No shit, a Christian would go to the Wall of the Faithless, but the idea of God punishing atheists for not worshiping his mortal/divine intermediary is clearly an element of the Christian hyper-reactionary hogwash that shat up 2e and owod.The ultimate example of politics being crammed into every orifice of RPGs is owod, in which on the one hand you had hyper-reactionary crap; VtM Gehenna featured at least 3 endings in which its basically "pray to Gawd and apologize for being such a horrible hu- vampire being," and on the other hand, the hyper-progressive nature of WtA (western civilization is in the thrall of not one but two cosmic forces of EXTREME negativity, one being corruption and the other being a force of stagnation out to EXTERMINATE ALL LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE) and MtA (in which science itself is an oppressive conspiracy).Thankfully, nowadays the closest this sort of thing comes to is, eh, futa elves, which I'm not convinced is even political so much as OotS inspired.
>>34351293Lolth has always been both a demon and a goddess -- a very unusual status.
I never played D&D apart from the video games but discussions about the lore, especially teh metaphysical are my favourite thing.But what I really like is reading about the most powerful entities in the setting, especially if they are incomprehensible ancient and mysterious.I don't want to turn this into a powerlevel thread but who are the most ancient and most powerful beings in d&d, and if I am interested in the lore of those, what should I read? As an example the lady of pain is supposedly pretty much what I mean, mysterious and powerful. Could /tg/ indulge me, please?
>>343557862e has a surplus of Most Powerful Beings.Ao, Lady of Pain, Asmodeus, Yaziran (sp? the lawful good serpent), possibly the Baernoloths, possibly the Dark Powers of Ravenloft are all "the most powerful" beings as far as has been printed.
>>34355600it really does sound like you're reading too much into all this. vampire was based on judeo-christian myths (cain, lilith, ect) so it's hardly surprising the ending scenarios were an extension of that.
Am I a terrible person for liking some of the 4e changes to Faerun? Mulhorand and Unther being gone is great, I'm okay with Abier being featured and Dragonborn getting their own nation in Faerun proper, High Imaskari is decent nowt hat the Netherese/Shadovar gone full retard, Mystra gets punked (wish she would just stay dead tho..) and the Chosen rekt. Everywhere that got blown up is places no one played or really cared about anyway except for Thay. Tell me when the last time anyone played outside of the Sea of Fallen Stars or the Sword Coast and i'll call you a liar.
>>34355869Well, VtM had Noddist vampires believing in that as their origin, and with other vampires believing in other things as their origin, but most of the material wasn't even remotely based off Judaeo-Christian origins.
>>34338766Fucking Wayne England art. Look guys, he can draw perfectly straight lines!
>>34355786read "elder evils", which includes a number of very powerful ancient evil types."on hallowed ground" and "deities and demigods" flesh out the various gods of the multiverse. anything more powerful than them tend to be obscure and only mentioned in bits and pieces of fluff, aside from the LoP.
>>34355924But my Al-Qadium, ported it over from AD&D I did, then it vanished. It probably went to Genie hell like Camilport.
>>34355924The Fiendish Codices have information of the Arch-Devils and Demon Lords, as does the Book of Vile Darkness. The Book of Exalted Deeds, while otherwise bland, has information on all the top good guys, too.
>>34354358This. Lamashtu represents the dark aspects of fertility. She is evolution and deformity. She is basically ancient peoples ideas about "monstrous" births like all the disturbing variations on conjoined children, cyclops babies, harlequin syndrome, and such filtered through an actual magical universe where giving birth to an actual monster is possible. Fertility on the good side is mostly handled by Pharasma who is responsible for each childs fate. She is both life and death.Basically, Lamashtu's fertility is a corruption of Pharasma's life giving aspect.>>34354679The Whore Queens are called such because thats their name in Christian Demonology. Agrat Bat Mahlat is an actual angel of prostitution in gnostic texts. Same with the other Whore Queens. Asmodeus's misogyny is merely reflective of the attitudes of the ancient patriarchs of the Old Testament and Torah.
>>34355786I personally would say Pandorym, of the Elder Evils, is the most powerful single named entity.The "most powerful" abstract entities (no names or use in any story) are the great shapes of the Far Realm, who outclass entire pantheons of gods.Pandorym itself outclasses all the gods in existence and has a mission to devour them all if it ever gets released.
>>34358657>I personally would say Pandorym, of the Elder Evils, is the most powerful single named entity.The funny thing is... he's originally from an FR novel.
>>34338430>so who or what were the ancient baatoriansThey were bad shit that you did NOT want to mess with.
>>34355924play the Neverwinter Nights 2 Expansion "Mask of the Betrayer" and get one of the four endings that, while it's technically the single most evil thing you could ever possibly do, is also the most awesome one of the bunch. Don't read the spoiler below if you don't want to be spoiled on that ending. Just remember; eat everything. Gods included.What happens is if you've consumed certain individuals; myrkul's essence, someone else, and the first bearer of the curse's true love, you gain mastery of it, and van eventually consume the hunger of the wall of the faithless itself, which is essentially the foundation upon which the planes sit. you become so powerful that Kelemvor screams "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!" and an entire pantheon of gods comes after you to try and kick you. You kill about half of them before they force you to escape into another part of the infinite multiverse to wreak more havoc.
Anyone else remember this module?
>>34358502Which is not really something we need to perpetuate. I realize how much flak that's going to catch from the average 4chan user but its not really a good excuse. 'Its shitty because it was shitty in the bad old days!'But these aren't the bad old days. So why not change? The option is wide open.
>>34358502I guess... It still feels weird thinking of Asmodeus, or any greater outsider for that matter, as distinctly gendered beyond roles in fertility/virility. I'm still used to Planescape where they were closer to living concepts than normal life. I can understand the reasoning, and I've always kind of liked the Whore Queens in demonology,
>>34338766I have a larger version of that
>>34358902>That's an odd place for a horseco-->Oh it's a pillar he's knocking overMeh.
>>34358973Zargon is easily one of the worst elder evils.His apocalypse is "all the water in the world becomes ooooooooze!"he's worse than Juiblex.
>>34354257Some of the circles are hot, the inner three are cold because satan's flapping his wings so hard trying to get back to heaven. If he'd stop, the ice would melt and free him.
>>34359043Source: Browsing through dante's inferno in high school and not touching it since.
>>34358879In Pathfinder Asmodeus represents the dark side of tradition, of authoritarianism. He is in essence a personification of fascism. Fascism is highly misogynistic and is very much LE. Asmodeus is not meant to be someone you join, but is to be opposed.
>>34359341A marked difference from D&D's Asmodeus, who is the tempter. An insidious and manipulative entity who makes it so you really, really want to join him, and that's what compromises your soul even if you don't actually do so.
I've always wondered why Larloch and Armaros didn't just shack up together to practice their spellcraft. Seems like they'd get along; and they could continue their gathering activities easily: Neither of them would have a problem opening portals to the Prime.
>>34359011>turns all water into ooze>Fighter flashbacks to corrosive oozes>has a panic attackThat Zargon guy is a right bastard
>>34348834>Cishet: Lawful Evil god of getting pronouns wrong, making racist comments, telling rape jokes, and being privileged
>>34359341Unless you're from cheliax, in which case his system fucking works and they can respect that.Also because the police will harass you if you don't.But the main reason is because his system works, and worked in the Bad Old Days after aroden went kaput.
>>34352642>>34353020Daily reminder that Pelor is Zarus with a beard.
>>34359489Reminder that nothing burns more unforgivably than the SunReminder that all Sun gods should be evil
>>34355814I personally would not count Asmodeus in that lineup. He's statted, unlike LoP, Ao, and the Dark Powers.
>>34359520As a morlock, I agree 100%
>>34359011Do all elder evils have their own respective apocalypses?
>>34359461Well, yeah. Fascism backed up by magic and a god would be like that. It worked in Italy under Mussolini for 30 years (what Cheliax is meant to represent).
What was the very first evil? Where it all started? Before demons and devils and hells and all that, the very first evil monster. Some mean Overdeity?
>>34359590No one is quite sure from when and where Evil came. There is only rumor, pure speculation; "it arrived with Good, of course." "Good and Evil has always existed together, constantly at war." "Good created something from which Evil sprung."And of course, the most infamous, "why should martials be anywhere near as good as casters anyway? It just isn't REALISTIC!"
>>34359590According to Immortal's Handbook, it's Satan.In that book, Asmodeus, Lucifer, and Satan are all different things.
>>34359572Half the point of the book. It's an overarching campaign guide with suggestions for setting them up for hugeass epic encounters and suggestions of where to stick filler, basically.Heavy on the endgame, fairly light with hints on the early game.The apocalypses range from "Eternal darkness" to "The dead won't stop getting back up because the moon is evil and undead" to "Everything gets living supercancer and is now pregnant YES EVERYTHING" to "All the water is now ooze" and honestly I don't remember the rest.Decent book to steal fluff from.
>>34355814Only two of those are really in the same class, and that's Ao (Mastur of the Universe, hur hur) and LoP, but she's a mystery.Asmodeus might have fit if the "Asmodeus is an avatar of the healing serpent" theory was still canon. The Powers are prisoners, the Baernoloths are vanquished by time. I have no fucking idea on Y.
>>34359676Is there a list somewhere online I can look at for that? Sounds pretty cool.Maybe a campaign could be made wherein one has already happened... like the moon one. And then they need to go to the moon to fix it.Not sure how to make one work with the other apocalypses though.
>>34359732Maybe only one apocalypse can happen at a time so the other Evils are first trying to undue the apocalypse to they can cause their own
>>34359732It was a 3.5 book, might still be on /rs/. Other than that, gonna be slim pickings. Came late in the cycle.
>>34359676i'm currently in the last stages of a 3+ years long game based around the elder evils book. so far i have included pretty much every apocalypse and creature from all sourcebooks in the D&D world that i have. all party members except one are 20th level.it's been a long time coming but i don't think there' s more than a month or so of game left.the PC's have just left the last town of "friendly" people inside the ruined canyons of the 9th layer. here there is just stillness and ice. they didn't plan for it to be so cold. the next section is largely underwater where they will proceed through the courts to the audience chamber for an avatar of Mr. Asmo himself and beg his assistance to stop the end of the multiverse.can't wait until they start attacking the celestial heavens and climb mt celetia with the crawling city to assault the observatory and get in the way of a god from the edge of time and space tearing through bubbles of planes and cosmologies :)so far they're strategy is "ghost ride it to beginning of time and kill it when it's a baby what could possible go wrong".
>>34348629>Especially when they have a god running around whose hobby is to torture people until their mind and flesh are horribly warped.>What is Torog?
>>34359806I think he is referring to Zon-Kuthon, god of not!cenobites.
>>34359837>>34359806Torog's from 4E and that's also his schtick. Except he's also the god of the underdark, got gacked by his fellow gods for unclear reasons, and crawls everywhere on the sluglike remains of his ruined legs and feet because they're broken and chained to fuck.4E lore has some good points, I'll admit. I steal a lot of things from it.
>>34350517>the Dead Three are backhell fucking yes
>>34359883Oh definitely. I play pathfinder and I steal a ton of it too.
>>34350271I pronounce it "Ba-ha-torian", but French is my native language, so...
>>34359590My interpretation is it is the Negative Energy Planet itself.Which can be thought of as the heart of Overgod Death, the impulse to destruction.
>>34358502>LamashtuJesus Christ that goddess is way to many (of my) fetishes in one divine entity.>That fucking Demon Mother's Mask in Inner Sea Gods.>>34348629>>34359837>Zon-KuthonBut /tg/ told me they only added him because some guy at Paizo has an BDSM/Corruption fetish he has to put into everything (WotR, SecD ect)
>>34359989They are in my opinion some of the best evil deities in fiction, not because of their personalities of portfolios, but because they are three evil deities who has been friends (not only allies) since mortality and remained a sort of evil trinity into godhood.
>>34360038Uh, tu est un grande putain, putain fromage, un petite bite, je suis tres desolè mais mon francais est terriblè simplement et je ne injurier pas dans le mannière un sal homme francais devoir etre.putain.
>>34359572Yep.>>34359011I personaly think Jormugandr got the best one. It's straight up "if that guy wake up, the planet is wrecked". I mean, in an edition they gave stats to gods, Jormugandr is specificly said "trying to stat him is meaningless. The PC can't fight a creature whose head is the size of a continent"
>>34360073inoriteRunning Legacy of Fire and this was my face having to explain Lamashtu worship (thankfully over skype)
>>34359806I meant that Asmodeus looks like a joke next to guys whose gimmick is to horribly torture all beings in creation when his own is being a dick to women.
>>34360073More like they wanted to do something interesting with the Kytons and decided to just go full cenobite with them instead of just hinting at it like 3.5 does.
>>34358502>Lamashtu represents the dark aspects of fertility. She is evolution and deformity. She is basically ancient peoples ideas about "monstrous" births like all the disturbing variations on conjoined children, cyclops babies, harlequin syndrome, and such filtered through an actual magical universe where giving birth to an actual monster is possible.This is why Lamashtu is my favorite god in -any- fantasy. It pulls a well-done trope reversal, turning something natural and necessary into something repulsive and vile, both in-character and on a meta-level.Plus the amount of sheer shit that you can do with having her involved with the BBEG is great.It covers anything from the king's son becoming Grendel, to a mad alchemist trying to return the world to its crawling chaos by decomposing all life into bacterial slime.
>>34359676>The apocalypses range from "Eternal darkness" to "The dead won't stop getting back up because the moon is evil and undead" to "Everything gets living supercancer and is now pregnant YES EVERYTHING" to "All the water is now ooze" and honestly I don't remember the rest.Leviathan: earthquakes and tsunamis for EVERYONEHulks of Zoretha: everyone's going insane with rage. Can't ask why, too insane.Sertrous: the soil is now snakes.Kyuss: the soil is now parasitic worms that control minds.Pandorym: the gods are now DEAD. (DM decides what happens from there, might not even be a real apocalypse.)
>>34360183Fuck I actually remember pandorym>Step 1: A bunch of wizards and other dudes make the most powerful sentient superweapon ever because reasons.>Step 2: They realise 99% of the way through what a godawful idea that is and try to shut the project down.>Step 3: It doesn't like being shut down. Most of them die, the rest flee to the outer planes and get every single outsider that values the souls coming off the material plane to come help them fuck it up, including a fair number of gods.>Step 4: Lots of people die, pandorym split into a mind and a massive invincible crystal body, which get shunted onto different planes and sealed.>Step 5: The Inevitables find out hundreds of years later that the wizards were slightly bending the truth when they were getting help, and being the insane lawful assholes they are, send a single inevitable to free Pandorym to right this wrong.>Step 6: He's slowly, methodically, getting there. Oh fuck please stop him.
>>34355786Not counting overdeities like Ao, the most powerful god mentioned was Jergal, The Lord of the End of Everything. He was described as being on the edge of true omnipotence (before he gave it all away, that is).
>>34360294It would actually be stupidly easy to permanently put an end to the inevitable through the use of ANOTHER inevitable. Namely the big dick ones that are tasked with keeping the divines in order and are most known for trying to stop ascension, and then pulling a complete 180 if the ascension actually happens
>>34351466What about the whole Throne of Bhaal itself? Or did you just make that up, and if not, source?
>>34360450He's just doing his job, man.
>>34360294>>34360450Pandorym is not a god or created weapon, though.It isn't even a being of the Far Realm.It's.. "something" from so far outside this reality that the people here can't even recognize it. (Its body is a 30 foot wide sphere of annihilation, actually.)The inevitables don't have any information on it either, only that it was the wronged party in a contract, and so it needs to be freed.
>>34360495I know, but in the case of obligatum, his job is going against the job of his higher ups.
>>34360514Pandorym is made to KILL all the godsHence why the dudes who try to make sure the gods don't die MIGHT be interested in it
>>34360514My headcanon for it? It's an old walkerA very angry oldwalker
>>34360533It made a proper contract to do so, though. It's all quite legal, so he is unlawfully imprisoned.Maybe they'll send another inevitable to stop Pandorym once he's freed, though.(Inevitables do not think things through.)
>>34360560You could probably convince them to make an exception in this case since completion of the contract would mean the destruction of everything forever
>>34360585Inevitables do not make exceptions! You need to start thinking in terms of Law, boy.
>>34360585A perfectly ordered nothingness. And they don't make exceptions.
>>34360117I'm Swiss, actualy.
>>34360610>>34360608>>34360585Of course they make exceptions. With the proper paperwork. You'd better start now. You may even finish before the heat death of the universe. This is a pretty big exception, you know.
>>34360560>>34360608>>34360608>>34360610The only thing that would convince a Inevitable to go along with it would be to use jurisprudence from an recognised authority. Or maybe a precedent, if there is one.
>>34360695Je ne connais jamais! Eh.. tu est un bonne nombre. Merde, je ne apprecier pas quatre-vingts, les swisses jai octante, mais..Nous pouvoir tu baise la fromage? Pour la trou dans la fromage? Il est valide. Je connais. Putain il. Je ne souci pas plus.
>>34360516Pol is leaking again.
>>34360161Yeah, it's been said before but Paizo really took off the kiddy gloves.
>>34360830Whoa. That's some really bad pseudo french here.Also, Swiss people say "huitante". It's the Belgians that say "octante".>>34361050For everyone but Asmodeus
>>34359419Armaros is forbidden by Asmodeus' decree to meet with anyone (except himself, when he comes over for a game of chess) and is monitored closely.
>>34359590Supposedly it was the Baernaloths, but that's probably a load of bullshit they're spreading since the Obyriths and the Baatorians existed around that time as well.What predated them, no clue. The Draedens supposedly predate the Multiverse, so maybe its them.
>>34361150Yeah. I speak better than I write. Large french expat community, and I work as a bouncer. Used to be the other way around. You get the idea. Blah blah, snobbery for the crime of speaking the French language, excuse the hypocrisy.
>>34360476Murder in Baldur's Gate Adventure Book.
>>34361235Oh yeah, I totally get it, don't worry.If you want to insult the Swiss, you should call them greedy and tell them what they did in WWII was disgusting.
>>34361241There are PCs or NPCs that can potentially become Chosen of Bhaal, the circumstances of which aren't described. Bhaalspawn will also apparently be wandering around, given a "Bhaalspawn Slayer" NPC at lvl 3.
>>34361259I'll keep it in mind. Normally I just dial down my comprehension/speaking ability. I'm not fluent by any means, but if you really mangle french, the look of revulsion on the faces of french people is amazing.
>>34361262Basically the adventure begins with Viekang trying to murder Abdel in public, and even if Abdel wins(with or without the help of the players) Viekang dies and Abdel immediatly becomes the Bhaalspawn Slayer, a monster in frenezy, and the players kill him(or Viekang if Abdel loses) .After the death of the Bhaalspawn Slayer, Bhaal ressurects. Simple as that.The adventure itself is about whom of three citizens of BG will become the chosen of Bhaal(or one of the players).
>>34350753>They retconned 4e into never happening. There's no such thing as the spellplague anymoreEverything that happened in 4e is canon. It's just that the Spellplague has been fixed by FR's superheroic NPCs now, and it got better.
>>34360168>>34360148>This primitive hyena mask is usually made of leather, but may be made of soft metal like copper or carved from an animal's skull. The wearer gains a +2 competence bonus on Handle Animal and Heal checks. The wearer can smell when nearby creatures are in heat or otherwise especially fertile (creatures such as humans that can breed at any time of the year always smell fertile unless they are barren).>If Lamashtu is the wearer's patron, the mask counts as an unholy symbol and a hole for a third eye appears in its forehead. The wearer can use summon monster II once per day to summon a fiendish hyena, which obeys the wearer as if they shared a common language. The wearer may interbreed with animals within one size category of the wearer's size. The offspring of such unions are members of the mother's race with the fiendish simple template and bear monstrous aesthetic features of the father's race.My god... so many conflicting emotions about this thing.
>>34351274I thought that's what Kelemvor originally tried to do, but ti caused too many issues, so he reformed himself as completely neutral, causing some huge rift between him and Mystra (Midnight). He let one of their former mortal friends wither away in the Wall of the Faithless.
>>34350753>They retconned 4e into never happening.Just a retcon? Or did they use some storyline to make it vanish, like a time travel adventure?
>>34361472He's incorrect. 4e events happened. It's just that "The Sundering" separated the twin worlds again, a bunch of gods came back, so on, so forth.5e is supposed to be several years after the 4e official "campaign date".
>>34361533so Abier is gone?Did the parts of it that port over into Toril remain?
>>34361533Does that mean Tymanther and Abier are gone?
>>34351055funny, in my campaign grazzt and wauken fucked and their baby is one of my players. she made it into lv28 arcane trickster, betrayed our group in the last adventure was claimed hero of the north and is the ruler of silverymoon nowadays while the rest of the group ended scattered all over the cosmos and/or dead.
>>34351182Malca was the only female to reject grazzt iirc. So grazzt just polymorphs into her and fuck people around and that's what he call revenge? lol
>>34361533faerun is like the mideast fuck this, my wiz lives there since 2e but i'm considering moving to sigil and never look back
>>34360516Think about it. He Who Was is clearly an expy of YHWH. People of Bael Turath were expies of Israel. Asmodeus eradicated Jews, besides those that he swayed on his side. He did that as part of his "eradicate every trace of He Who Was" plan, so he had to eradicate the last worshipers of his former boss.
>>34361213Unless Obyriths and Baatorians came to be after Baernaloths took Law and Chaos out of themselves.
>>34361213Draedens are all kinds of creepy. So are the leShay.
>>34362893Yeah, there's one that's so big that an entire level of the Abyss formed around him.>>34362448Never trust a Yugoloth or a Baernaloth. We only have their word on that issue, when apparently there were other things in the nearby planes.Besides, didn't they say that the expunged Chaos and Law turned into the Baatezu and the Tanar'ri? Not the Baatorians and the Obyriths?
>>34363061In 3e the Baernaloths created the obyriths, who created the tanar'ri. Maybe. It's never explicitly stated.
>>34359695>Ao (Mastur of the Universe, hur hur)no, he's just master of abeir-toril. there are implied to be other overdeities but they are mostly removed from the affairs of mortals. the greater gods of the more obscure pantheons (like the finnish pantheon) are said to be moving toward overdeity status, which is why they are steadily becoming more reclusive.
>>34363061>>34363252I am using the whole "Obyriths are makers of the Tana'ri" as basis for that. Because they can't be makers of Baatezu when they are mostly fallen devas and such (not counting Kytons, which would be as old as Baatorians).
>>34363539Besides, the baernaloth thing may be just so much careful manipulation by the 'loths. It's great PR after all.I'm wondering how much truth there is to their story of Apomps.
>>34363252Weren't the Obyriths stated to be natural products of the Abyss? According to the Demonomicon of Iggy, the original Tanar'ri were made from mortal sins and fears which the Obyriths molded into other forms (because they couldn't understand them)..Demogorgon is a firstborn Tanar'ri and is stated to have been born out of the primal fear of the savage beasts and monsters lurking in the wilderness, for example.Maybe they asked for help from the Baernaloths in the crafting process, who knows.
>>34363778We don't know. We really don't know anything. I'm only referring to this paragraph:>As Cabiri explored the depths of the Abyss, it is believed that he discovered some of the truth behind the creation of the obyrith race, a discovery that compelled him to resurface and seek out the obscure fiends known as the baernoloths. Whatever he confronted them with was enough for them to engineer his captured and subsequent imprisonment in the then still-young Wells of Darkness. Yugoloths often visit Cabiri's well, more often than any well in the layer, which suggests that his imprisonment remains of interest to these neutral evil fiends.- Dragon #357, "Gazing into the Abyss"
>>34363874Interesting.Maybe the 'loths are vvisiting him because he managed to find the Baerns? They have lost contact with their makers, from what I remember, so a guy who managed to find them would be of interest to them.
>>34363918I found it highly interesting that the entry suggested not only that Cabiri could FIND the baernaloths but also that they took an active, direct hand in something within recent memory (relatively speaking, Cabiri was imprisoned well after the rise of the tanar'ri).Either Eric Boyd (the Paizo guy who wrote that article) really wanted to do something with the baerns, or he just didn't "get" that they're supposed to be hidden. On the other hand Cabiri's schtick was finding out secrets. So maybe he could find them after observing the multiverse for so long.
>>34363947Weren't the Baerns also involved in choosing who will be the next Oinoloth? I remember Anthraxus had something to do with them.If so, it's possible that the Yugoloths who want more power and prestige are looking for him in order to get their blessing. Which could be an elaborate setup for the higher-ranking Yugoloths to spot pretenders and potential usurpers. They are the masters of misdirection, after all.And that unified creation myth (that the Obyriths and the Baatorinas were made by the Barenaloths) is mostly rooted in the Gray Wastes, while the other planes consider it hogwash. Though it is possible that they had a hand in shaping the Tanar'ri - it is mentioned in one Dragon magazine (I think 353) that the Obyriths had no idea what to do with mortal souls that ended up in the Abyss, while the Baerns already figured out the whole larva process. So it's possible that they collaborated on creating the Tanar'ri.Similar deal with the Baatezu - they could've taught the first fallen celestials down there how to turn a Lemure into a Baatezu instead of a Baatorian.
>>34364117I think so. I really need to re-read Planes of Conflict.By the way this was the best fucking lore thread of all time.
>>34364253Agreed.Did someone save it yet?
>>34364379Already done it.> http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/34338430/Great thread.
>>34364117>it is mentioned in one Dragon magazine (I think 353) that the Obyriths had no idea what to do with mortal souls that ended up in the Abyss, while the Baerns already figured out the whole larva process. So it's possible that they collaborated on creating the Tanar'ri.>Similar deal with the Baatezu - they could've taught the first fallen celestials down there how to turn a Lemure into a Baatezu instead of a Baatorian.That makes a really lot of sense. >>34346340>frightened the other Lords into submission by just blowing up the Hag Countess.Personally I don't think that they cared about Malagarde that much - after all, she was just a Night Hag, which means that she wasn't even Baatezu, not mentioning that she was NE instead of LE, which would make her a very hated being among the Nine.
>>34364117>>34364466Although one correction: Nupperibo, not Lemure. This reminds me that one of the Planescape supplements had described hierarchy of advancement among Baatezu and how Lemure was under Nupperibo, but to become even higher, a Nupperibo had to be "demoted" into Lemure first.
>>34364466It's not that they didn't care about her, it's that Asmodeus killed her with such ease. She just started growing one day and exploded, her entrails and flesh covering the entire layer. If he can do that to one established Lord of the Nine, he can do it to any other one just as easily.Though it's said that Malagarde was messing with some ritual that'd turn her into a divinity, and that her growth spurt was because Asmodeus corrupted her ritual, which resulted in her exploding everywhere.>>34364482Right, my mistake.
>>34364522Well, she had it coming, that's for sure.Damn, why the Evil Planes must be so much more interesting than Good Planes?Still, I'll prefer keeping most of Planescae fluff and not using Faction War.
>>34364549Planescape, gods damn it! Freaking problems with p button...Anyway: Illithids - beings that traveled from the future to escape end times, or beings from Far Realm? Personally, I prefer the first one. Makes them complete opposite of Aboleths.
>>34364549Good planes are by their nature not really adventuring sites. Unless they're under attack, being corrupted or you're playing in an evil campaign out to wreck shit there's not much to DO there other than go seek help or negotiate. Hell, evenif you are playing an evil campaign a good plane is a much less interesting place to go, because everything's basically okay. It's like invading suburbia.
>>34364574The first one, since the Aboleths don't remember them (and they have genetic memory - they remember the beginning of the world, but have no memory of where the Illithids came from, and that freaks them the fuck out). Though I'd like to imagine it mixed in with a bit with the second one, and say that the end times weren't because of the whole Good/Evil war, but because the Far Realm finally broke in and took everyone by surprise before Tharizdun and Shiva destroyed everything.Also, apparently one of their deities has some connection with the Ancient Baatorians, since he looks similar to one, is LE, and is a psychic monstrosity (the Ancient Baatorians apparently relied more on psychic powers than arcane might, since their Lords were described as being incorporeal).
>>34364699>Also, apparently one of their deities has some connection with the Ancient Baatorians, since he looks similar to one, is LE, and is a psychic monstrosity (the Ancient Baatorians apparently relied more on psychic powers than arcane might, since their Lords were described as being incorporeal).I didn't knew about this one. Sounds interesting.BTW: Tharizdun came into being with which edition? With all the 4e shit and their Primodials, I became confused.Yes, I dislike concept of Primodials, because of the fact that Obyriths were defeated by Wind Dukes of Aaqa, which were elemental in nature. Not mentioning that 4e made Obyriths Far Realm related for some reason...
>>343648381st edition of AD&D. Tharizdun's old, but didn't get much focus since he's supposed to be eternally imprisoned due to how dangerous he is. I read somewhere an interpretation that he was supposed to be some sort of the embodiment of the heat death of the universe, since he has Cold and Entropy as his domains.And the Obyriths in 4e weren't Far Realm related, they came from a previous multiverse which they destroyed and corrupted to the point of it falling apart. So instead of trying to prevent its destruction, they decided to skip town and settled in what would become the Abyss in 4e.
>>34364928So, Obyriths partially snatched part of the thing about Aboleths? Still bad. Old fluff best fluff.OK, this makes Tharizdun much more interesting now. Where was he imprisoned?And can anyone elaborate on the possible connection about deity of Illithids (not sure which one was implied) and Ancient Baatorians?I am trying to recall what were those things under the ice of the Paraelemental Plane of Ice, whose member of race was in one of the Layers of Abyss, also asleep...
>>34364980>I am trying to recall what were those things under the ice of the Paraelemental Plane of Ice, whose member of race was in one of the Layers of Abyss, also asleep...OK, found, draedens. The Sleeping Ones that are in Plane of Ice were mentioned in "The Inner Planes" for Planescape. Ulgurshek that is in the Abyss is mentioned in Fiendish Codex I for 3.5
>>34364980Fun fact: aboleths are olders than the gods, so they do not worship them.They respect some being known as "Elder Evils" (different from the ones in the book of the same name), who are, according to "Lord of Madness":"Bolothamogg, Him Who Watches from Beyond the Stars, is a guardian force that seeks to protect the Far Realm from the "taint" of our reality. Bolothamogg has some sort of alliance with the demon lord Areex.Holashner, the Hunger Below, is one of the few Elder Evils to exist fully in the Prime Material Plane. Appearing as part squid and part centipede, this massive creature burrows through the deepest reaches of the world, driven only by its unending hunger. It eats stone, magma, creatures, and anything else in its path.Piscaethces, the Blood Queen, is the source of the aboleth race, depicted as a vast aboleth with no tentacles and with mucus the color of blood.Shothotugg, the Eater of Worlds, dwells in a distant corner of the multiverse, physically far removed from the world itself. An undulant mass of seething fluid the size of a mountain, Shothotugg travels through the gulfs of space from world to world, poisoning and parasitizing any world on which it alights.Y'chak, the Violet Flame, is unique among the Elder Evils in a terrible way—it is actively interested in the development of life or, to be more precise, in the development of the destruction of life. Its true form is said to be a brilliant pillar of violet flames that conceal an inner form so horrifying that to see it clearly is to invite utter destruction upon the body and soul."
>>34364980> I am trying to recall what were those things under the ice of the Paraelemental Plane of Ice, whose member of race was in one of the Layers of Abyss, also asleep...You're thinking of the Draedens, the things that predate (or are made by things that predate) the Multiverse. They are pretty Lovecraftian - giant brains with flailing mouthed tendrils that stretch for miles in every direction. They also hate any form of matter and will devour it if they can, and spend most of their time either in the Plane of Vacuum or between the worlds of the Prime Material.Gygax had a boner for Lovecraft's stuff, and Tharizdun is the product of that boner. Tharzidun was made by Gygax way back in 1982, and he was some ancient evil deity who got imprisoned by an alliance of all the other gods. He was cast out, imprisoned in a demiplane made entirely from crystals that drove whoever looks into them mad. He has several cults, most of which are led by insane prophets and aberrations, who seek to free him and end all existence everywhere.If he breaks free, the Multiverse is fucked. He got a minor mention in some magazine, and his imprisoned and sleeping avatar has Divinity level 11 and is treated like having 20 levels in Wizard and 20 levels in Cleric. Dude's a fucking beast.As for the Illithid god and the Baatorians, check out Ilsensine. He's mentioned as one of their patron deities, but not their creator, and looks like a "disembodied brain of emerald color that trailed countless ganglion-like tentacles". Some people assume that he's an ancient Baatorian because he just showed up out of nowhere from the Outer Planes, he fits their descriptions (what little we have on them) and the rumors of them being psychics.