I've been working my way through skills. I know this doesn't mean much without the general rules, but you can definitely pick up a lot about the system itself just from reading them. The translation itself is very rough and subject to change. Sorry if some stuff sounds a little awkward (this is all draft-level work and I keep changing terminology as I go and become more familiar with the system so what I have done isn't even all consistent with itself). I don't know if there's much to talk about from little I have done. It seems like everyone else who was all gung-ho about actually translating it has suddenly fallen quiet since the game was actually released.I have Guardian, Samurai, Monk, Cleric, Race, and Common skills done.http://pastebin.com/u/yukamichiSorry about the awkward formatting on pastebin, I'm doing everything up in spreadsheets (for now) and had to export them as tab-separated-values for the sake of making them share-able.If anyone has any specific requests about things they want to see translated, I can maybe prioritize those next, as there's a whole lot of game left to go, but I'm not making any promises, and also I'm drunk and watching anime right now so it's not like it will happen right away.I hope somebody actually talks about this game so I feel like I'm not translating stuff for only three people like I'm pretty sure I did with Kancolle and that was really a fucker of a rush job and I need to go back and do it properly at some point maybe after all the books are released Book 2 is in the mail and will come some day and I'm super excited about it even if nobody reading this spoiler cares
Many thanks, anon. This thread deserves some more attention. How do the basic mechanics work? Does it do anything new or innovative?
You are doing the Lord's work anon keep at it!
>>317654071000 internets to you!
Neat! I was thinking about homebrewing a game after watching the lone season of the anime.
>>31765407Doing god's work anon.Soon we'll all be able to sit around lamenting the fact that we've got a translation but nobody to play it with.
>>31765407That suit reminds me of this every time, I don't know if it's the same show or not.
>>31765407I'm both glad and disappointed that the Fox-tail race just let's you pick a general ability instead of replacing one of your class abilities with another class's ability at random.On one hand it's a lot more fair. On the other hand it's a lot less hilarious.
>>31768590I know right, I was looking forward to the playing a fluffy mystery box of skills.
>>31768725To be fair, it's probably an easy enough thing to replace. Just change it so it's "Lose 1 combat skill from your class, gain 1 combat skill from another class at random."It might completely ruin or break your character though, so there should probably be a list of skills you can't lose or gain. Such as assassinate from the assassin.
>hatehold on. monsters have an aggro list? I'm not sure how I feel about that.
>>31765407Keep on keeping on. You are doing god's work.
>>31767490>How do the basic mechanics work?It's basically a "2d6 + modifiers compared to target number" system, though you can add bonus dice to a check as well as modifiers. 4 main stats, with a +1 modifier per 3 points in that stat to checks based off of it. Bonuses are mostly focused on skills and equipment, and the majority of them are focused on combat. >Does it do anything new or innovative?The game's major gimmick, at least as far I've picked up, is Hate mechanics, and class (and more specifically, really, ability) synergy in combat. The game is everything I hate about 4E but I don't really care because it's not an overt affront to the franchise that built my love of gaming as a child that's just using its name as brand recognition.>>31768590What may disappoint some people, is that this game is NOT a PnP Elder Tale. Your LHRPG character level is not your Elder Tale character level, you don't level as if you were an Elder Tale character, etc... Your ET character level is a fluff stat that doesn't affect your advancement or overall power level as a character in the LHRPG. Your CR (Character Rank, LHRPG levels) 1 character could be an ET level 90 character, for example, you don't gain levels as if you are an ET character, etc... As much as so many of the rules are devoted to really crunchy combat, thematically the game still tries to be about the main themes of LH, adventure and camaraderie. I don't think it's really supposed to be a game about grinding and micromanaged builds, and all of the non-combat stuff that there aren't really super-simulationist rules for are supposed to be where you have fun and experiment and just roleplay for roleplaying's sake.
>>31768868It's an RPG about being stuck in an MMO and aggro is important in that.
>>31768868It's a tabletop game based on a series about people in a world that is/was an MMO.Disliking aggro mechanics is a bit petty.
>>31768868Knowing my group I imagine this is how the session will go.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU
So Hate.It's a non-capped numerical status, and if you can't tell from reading over the (poorly formatted) skills, the more skills you use, the more your hate rises (and sometimes falls, depending on who's using what skill on who).There are a couple effects of Hate. The most important is "Hate Top," which refers to the PC with the currently highest Hate score. The Hate Topped character takes extra damage from enemies, and their current Hate score happens to be a multiplier for that extra damage.Hate Under characters (every character who is not the Hate Top) (these need more fluid translations but I'm not at that point yet, bear with it for now) get a bonus to their Defense checks against enemy attacks. Also, if an enemy attacks you and hits, your Hate ends up decreasing. So managing Hate and trying to make sure that your Tanks are the ones taking blows (and getting healed) instead of your DPSes is supposed to be a big part of combat.
>>31769092Somehow I knew that this is what you were linking to. I haven't seen this in years. It doesn't stop being great.
>>31768898I can live with it not being a direct port of the game, that would have been cool but probably impossible to pull off without it turning into a colossal clusterfuck. As long as the flavor is properly maintained, which as far as I can tell seems to be the case, I'll be happy.
>>31768898>>31769441You could probably add in actual boring MMO grind if you wanted to, but why would you want to?I mean yeah, you can make it so the players start at level 1 with only some of their skills, and crappy gear, and make them slowly rise up and increase stats, but honestly that seems like a lot of extra work to make the game less fun.
anon, you've done good work today
This needs more love
>>31769827This is probably beyond the scope of this thread but the game Super Console had a Patience stat. It was per group so the players had to decide when to use it. Spending a point let you level up, solve a puzzle, etc. In this game you could have a Grinding stat that lets you exchange points for leveling up, getting a rare drop, cash, gathering crafting materials, increasing faction reputation. You would only get 1 point a session.
>>31765407For some reason, websites other than Amazon.jp seem to put the book's release date in May, so I haven't received it yet. Not that I can read it anyway.What content is going to be included in Kancolle Book 2 anyway? I'm not sure if I want to continue collecting it if it's going to pile on expansions to infinity
>>31769247This is a pretty creative way to make hate management for tanks interesting.More creative than any of the real mmos I've played anyway.
>>31765407Okay, so, does the rulebook contain rules for non-japanese classes or not?
>>31773826Aren't all of the classes universal, just with name changes?Like the Samurai is the Pirate elsewhere, but other than appearance they function the same?
>>31773826I was under the impression that the regional classes were just cosmetic/fluff reskins, with the underlying mechanics being identical.
>>31773875I don't know, I assumed there was actual functional differences.That would be more interesting, besides, doesn't it make sense that a paladin is better at taking direct hits and protecting but worse at dodging and inflicting damage than a viking?
>>31773920Even if it made sense, it would kind of suck to have an MMO where you'll never get to play a specific class with it's own mechanics because it's only available in Europe or something.
>>31773920I'd imagine there's maybe a few skills that behave a bit differently but ultimately they'd play the same.
>>31774075Like vanilla WoW, in a way
>>31765407I'd like to see the Summoner skills translated. Let's face it, people, the guy who gets the cosplaying undine is the guy who picked the best class.But thank you for translating any of this at all. You're a pretty cool guy.
>>31774150I still don't understand what's up with the Giraffe hat.
>>31774075I just find it really hard to believe that a class called Hunter could be a top melee DPS class like Assassin is.
>>31774518Maybe it's one of those dual-wielding rangers rather than the arrow-shooty kind.
>>31774150I'll be honest, I've wanted to make a summoner character this entire time. I'm gonna patiently wait for this best anon to translate it.
>>31774518I somewhat assumed that assassin had a ranged build, just because we constantly see characters with bows and crossbows, but there's no ranged weapon class.Assassin is the only one that comes close.
>>31774726Assassin does indeed have a ranged build.
>>31774726>ranged weapons:>nearly allIt's at least possible.
>>31774726Well, backrow sniper is listed as one of the options for assassin.
>>31774557It seems more sensible to say that some stats have just been shifted around, maybe melee abilities made ranged and vice versa to make a class who specialises at long-distance attack but has a melee option, rather than specialising in melee and having a ranged option
>>31774726Assassin has a ranged build. It's considered somewhat uncommon but still capable of dealing the damage it's supposed. Which makes sense, fast and swingy melee tends to the be the "popular" class in any MMO.
>>31772909I believe the second book has ~60 more ships in it, and new classes and new rules for them (subs, CLTs, seaplane tenders, aviation battleships and cruisers), and the replay is a manga. I believe I read that there are only supposed to be 3 books in total, so at least as far as I'm concerned it's not a bad deal for ~1200 yen a piece, but that's just my opinion.
>>31768417Once it's finished, setting up and playing the rpg will sustain me until fall.
Race.Class.Subclass.Time to share them, anons.
>>31776291R: FoxtailC: ClericS: BerserkerCleric has good Health and mana pools so it should be able to use any ability it gets fairly well. That and the ability to wear plate armor.
>>31776291R: Werecat.C: Monk.S: Tracker.Evasion-based off-tank/dd, great at 1v1 PvP, can ambush his foes. The main strategy is death by a thousand cuts.
>>31776291R:WolfearC:GuardianS:Still torn between berserker and blacksmith. I've always been a fan of wearing gear forged with my own hands.
I would play the shit out of a LH TTRPG
>>31776459Good thing OP is doing the Good Lord's work then, eh?
>>31776459Now imagine you can't use any LN/anime characters except "(s)he sits in the council doing important shit". Still fun?Speaking of which, what does rulebook say about these characters?
>>31776291Race: FoxtailClass: SamuraiSubclass: BrewerRampant alcoholism is the only correct response to being trapped in a fantasy world.>>31776459Well, uh, good, because it's out in Japan and being translated by helpful anons... so yeah. Woo!
>>31775669Is this the second book? I can't tell because I don't read Japanese.http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=MED-BOOK-0017951200 yen per book is fine, I guess, except that after import costs to my country I'm paying way more than 1200 yen per book. And Japanese TRPG books seem to sell out REALLY fast too so I can't buy them in "bulk" to save on shipping and all that. Life is suffering.
Thank you for doing this! I got the book when it came out, but my Japanese isn't good enough so it's really slow going for me. I'm looking forward to playing this with some friends. Can you look at the EX Power section? It's on page 88-89.
>>31776580Yeah, that is the second book. And yeah, Kancolle especially seems to be selling out really quick, I believe they're doing small print runs because it's (in theory) a pretty niche product. The basic book is on its 3rd print run already.
>>31765407You're the best OPI still hope to run this with some f/a/tg/uys someday.
>>31777975I actually chose wolfear because of the whole battle-rage thing they do, like a mini-zerker effect.Considering most of the time, a wolfear doesn't even have the ears or the tail, it's a non-issue.The cat people and the fox tails are the ones you really should be concerned about.
>>31778001>Replying to bait>In a Log Horizon thread>Throwing out your own bait for no good reasonAnd here I thought we could all be civil.
>>31777975Werecat only because statbonuses to agility, which will help my Monk/Tracker. I'd pick dwarf or human otherwise.
>>31774498It's an item set with a good bonus, but looks very silly.
>>31765407>yukaWere you the one to do the subs for Horizon in the middle of nowhere, some years ago?
>>31779081Never heard of it.
I just added a quick summation of character generation rules (and the Summoner skill list earlier, since a couple people asked and it's also my favorite class too). I know chargen rules are kind of pointless without the full skill lists at the moment, but whatever, it will all get done eventually regardless of the order it happens in.
>>31776291Race: Race of RitualClass: HunterSubclass: Tracker.Gotta minmax for damage, maximum mana means maximum abilities even if it fucks with my maximum health
>>31765407R: DwarfC: MonkS: Undecided between Tracker or Berserker
>>31779478Thank you. You are a good man.
>>31779478So the summoner just replaces themselves with their summon? I suppose that's a good way to handle it mechanically without worrying about them abusing extra actions or anything. Still feels a bit weird though.
>>31765407I can assure you that if you finish the classes and majority of the skills at the very least, I can guarantee you I'll be running a campaign for it. Already have 5-6 people amped to play this, just from what in the pastebin.
>>31781374Is there a reason /tg/ isn't used for traditional party campaigns, only quests?
>>31781790Probably a combination of the fact that anyone can jump into a thread and post.It's just easier for everyone involved to use the game-finder thread to find a group, then use another method to play online.
>>31781790Well, I tend to go for Campaigns over Quests, because they're longer, and tend have more story which leaves more room for shenanigans to ensue.However doing a campaign on 4chan would be chaotic at best because of everyone having the freedom to post, and myself only having the capacity to keep track of 8-10 peoples characters at one time.So unfortunately, it won't be on 4chan
>>31781790Because it's not well suited towards it. You can't talk to players individually, post timers and other delays instead of real-time chat, the fact that you have to physically manipulate images each time you want to change something like a position on a map, etc...
>>31782192This. It's not particularly well suited to quests either, mind you, but whatever.
>>31774498Rare phantasmal gear from African server, she's actually an incredibly powerful summoner.
>>31773826Mamare stated that the release only covers the Yamato which kinda implies he'll do rulebooks for the other servers at one point. We'll have to ask next Q&A though.
>>31765407Quick question. Are all the subclasses in the book the same as in >>31768882 ?
>>31785204Not OP but quick answer, nope. The subclasses are distinct things from the actual classes. Subclasses are where you get your crafting abilities and the special abilities (I believe Hunter is what allows you to use a bow, but don't quote me on that).
>>31785467Ignore this, saw my mistake too late.
>>31765407Huh. After going through the guardian skills, I noticed a distinct lack of Aura Saber. Perhaps later books will add more skills?
So race of ritual gets the shit end of the stick?I was thinking of RoR + Summoner is this good?
>>31786056Race of ritual has the highest attack, I think, but lowest hp. So, for summoner, that hides behind summons, its probably fine.RR Guardian on the other hand is not that good of an idea.
>>31786056How so? They trade some HP for an extra point of Fate, and it looks like Fate can get you some pretty nice effects. Plus they have a big INT bonus and a racial skill that gives them an even bigger INT bonus, which is good for a caster.
>>31785204The pastebin has a few different ones, like spell thief.
>>31786155+2 int a +4 int abilitywell uh thats great but they gain no other statUnless the racial boosts to hp arent that high
>>31786172Well if you're going DPS hope you have someone tanking for you, then.
Wait, so each time you take a skill, you raise its SR by 1, with the cap being your Max SR or the skill's Max SR, whichever is lower? Am I getting that right?
>>31788104Yeah. From CR 2 through 10 you get 2 combat skills and 1 general skill each rank, at 11+ it's 1 combat and 1 general. Also each of your base ability scores increases by 1, and your HP increases by your class HP modifier.
>>31779478Keep it up you wonderful bastard.
>>31788261How often does your Max SR go up?
>>31788449The Max SR for a skill is set by the skill, it doesn't change.
The skills normally go to lvl4 in the show. And to get a skill to lvl5, you needed a rare dungeon drop. And you could get only a few skills maxed.Is it same way here?
>>31788486Then what's the point of "At CR 1, your maximum Skill Rank (SR) is 1."Is it just to keep you from dumping into the same skill at the beginning?
So given that combat will probably be secondary in actual campaigns, let's talk about subclasses and overskills and why your personal favourite is better than that guy's favourite.Pharmacist all the way, recreate real life medicine using magical ingredients. Make steroids out of ogre blood and energy drinks out of pheonix feathers and test them out on your friends.
>>31789088I want to take Scribe and go full Indiana Jones on the world.>Exploran'>Map-makan'>Lore recordan'>Museum Guild Hall keepan'Though speaking of subclasses and such... do you get a production subclass AND a rp subclass, or just one or the other? I could never be sure.
>>31789197One or the other, Production just refers to subclasses that use up materials and create items with them. Also some subclasses have to be earned, Vampire for example would require you to go out and find another vampire and be turned by them. Soujirou's subclass is unique to him after getting an in game accomplishment as are some of the other ones you see on guild masters or other important characters.
>>31789274Huh. Can Vampire be forced on you? What would happen to your current subclass?
>>31789373Dunno hasn't been explained beyond being listed as a possible subclass. you would probably have to meet some requirements (likely a quest line).also changing subclasses resets you back to level 1 unless your previous class was apprentice.
Someone who does not know what a Log Horizon is here (I'm in this thread because i just like reading rule books, so a new system getting translated is of interest to me):It looks like the Race of Ritual has 0 base hitpoints, compared to 8 or 16 for everything else. Is this a typo on OP's part, or are they supposed to be made of wicker, spit, and dreams?
>>31789088I kinda want to play a chef on the quest for the finest, possibly Phantasmal ingredients. Doing high level content not for loot, but because goddamn dragon meat.
>>31789683It's not a typo, their extra Fate point makes up for it.
>>31789683The latter. They're the cannon least popular race.
>>31789683>Someone who does not know what a Log Horizon is hereLog Horizon is a light novel series and anime about the players of an MMO called Elder Tale. They get trapped in the world of the game. It's mostly about them setting up a functioning economy/government and adapting to the world. >It looks like the Race of Ritual has 0 base hitpoints, compared to 8 or 16 for everything else. Is this a typo on OP's part, or are they supposed to be made of wicker, spit, and dreams?Should be correct. They are an unpopular race for players because they're super fragile.
>>31789683The Race of Ritual playstyle is pretty much "Disregard defense acquire magical power".
>>31789759Toriko pls go
>>31789882Hey! It's a valid thing after the apocalypse. Watch the first few episodes, you'll see just how important a tasty meal is.
>>31776291H-AlvBardScribe / MusicianI want to see if its possible to create my own song that would wreck the game.
>>31786056You're forgetting there are tons of good ways to mitigate or avoid damage in the game.Tracker subclass give you stealth bonuses.Sigilmancer subclass gives you defense bonuses by wearing tatoosSorcerors have 2 escape spellsSummoners has a spell that lets them swap places with their summon (you can assign a summon to stay in town)Kannagis have barriers
>>31789373>>31789423Getting bitten by a vampire just unlocks the Vampire subclass.You can choose not to take it.
>>31781200pretty muchin a sidestory one of the main characters is a summoner who stuck his soul into a magical horse
>>31773875Localization teams for ET existed and were allowed to change things.Samurai and Kannagi were localized classes for Japan.
I love the concept of this game, but I would have no idea where to start if I ran it. Anyone got any good plot hook ideas? I'd prefer not to tie anything in with the main story because dicking with canon isn't my thing.
>>31796151Well, as far as I've seen most of the main plot takes place on the Japanese server, so you'd probably be in the clear anywhere other than there.You could set the game just after the Apocalypse, where everyone has suddenly found themselves in this world, and nobody is sure quite how things work yet. That might be good for a group who hasn't seen the show and you want to play out the discovery.For a group that knows more about the show, you can set it a bit later, after things have settled down, and getting more into political aspirations.
>>31789833>trapped in the worldThe game world becomes real, so to say.
>>31796151You can run right after and have your party try to defend Landers in Susukino. Or during the big goblin attack. Or just make up an event, since we'll never get a full list.
>Each PC starts with 350G, a Backpack, an Adventurer's Set, and a Sandwich.>a SandwichThat's oddly specific. Does the sandwich DO anything, or is it just there to facilitate the "gamefood tastes like cardboard" reveal?
>>31796151It's way too late at night for me to bother to list all the random fluff/backstory for other servers(or look it up rq) but you have ALOT of breathing room.
>>31796151Pick a location/server, think of what the players in that region are like (eg brazillian players, russian players, american players etc)go from day zero and use that to write a hook
>>31796956And remember, it's only a matter of time before the BR hordes conquer SA and begin moving northwards.If thought the goblin king arc was bad...
>>31796981>>31796956>BR versus RU world warwhoever wins, we lose
>>31797267RU wins, BR all suck. It's a fact of gaming.
>>31765407If there are any sections about the stats themselves, that would be great to have especially with the quick chargen rules.Your efforts are much appreciated. Thanks for everything.
>>31797706BR have numbers (there are always more BR, also a fact of gaming) and idiot tenacity on their side. Not to mention the ruskies will often be easily distracted by their irresistible need for vodka and borscht as the war of attrition drags on.
>>31798395Oh, please, they band together when against a common enemy, so bloodthirsty and chaotic that they destroyed their own cathedral during gang wars. In New York.
>>31798395What is the #1 rule for Warfare?Never get into a land war in Russia.
>>31765407Very nice!Thank you very much, OP. I've already got a bunch of local players interested in playing a Log Horizon campaign, so your work will not be in vain.
I've only watched the anime but I was wondering if the oceans were considered zones. In WoW if you went too far from shore you started taking damage. If you had a boat and knowledge of sailing could you sail from the north american to European server?
>>31798626Also, I could try putting the stuff you translated so far in formatted .tex files and edit them, so we can easily make it into a .pdf.Would anyone be interested in that?
>>31798834They are/were popular areas. An entire expansion was dedicated to the seas, and it's content is still pretty popular a decade and a half later.Raid level monsters roam the oceans, making long voyage dangerous if you don't have a formidable group, something is awaking in the Bermuda Triangle, and there is Cthulhu-esque dungeon at the bottom of the Mariana Trench that has a staggering list of complicated requirements to even reach.
>>31798834>>31798948Oops, quick follow up.The expansion is the entire reason Sailor, Pirate, and Fisherman exist.- Fisherman deals with your normal fishing and is the only subclass that grants bonus damage to aquatic monsters and underwater combat.- Sailor teaches you character everything needed to run a ship.- Pirate is similar to sailor, but is more focused on ship to ship combat.Also, the Bermuda Triangle is the only aquatic area whose level range we know. The area is a popular leveling spot for mid level players from both the North and South American servers.
>>31798874I've already put it all in an .xlsx file (except for the chargen rules). Here's the resulting .pdf.
Is there a class that focused on DoTs and causing stat penalties in Elder Tale? I could never determine if there was a class that fit my play style in Log Horizon.
>>31799121Nice! I actually just finished putting the Chargen rules into a .pdf, so have that, too.
>>31799130Swashbuckler's main builds is stacking up as many dots as you can.Assassin, Druid, and Enchanter also have semi-viable dot builds in the novels.>>31799121>>31799149Love ya.
Guy who did >>31799149 here; I'm also willing to work as an editor for all the translated stuff and to help compiling it into a coherent whole.I'm not that good at making things look pretty, but I can at least make things consistent and well-origanised. Which would be the top priority for an actually playable translation.
>>31799121Quick note. Anchor Haul -> HowlSorcerer should be Enchanter, as Sorcerer is another mage class all together. There are probably some other things to nitpick about, but this was just at a quick glance. Thanks for the compilation.
>>31799910That's not sorcerer or enchanter, those are skills open to all of the magic-using classes.And I wouldn't waste your time trying to compile these while they're still in draft form.
>>31776291R: Race of RitualC: SummonerS: KnightAccording to the LN, Knights can wield any melee weapon and use shields. Given that Summoners can enhance their physical damage every turn, this build should be able to yield a good amount of melee DPS. What's more, summoning a Sword Princess is my solution for ranged or aoe combat, which is enhanced by Weapon Mastery: Sword.Survivability is going to be an issue. I'm either going to need a Sigilmaker friend or switch Knight for Sigilmaker and hope that short swords will work instead.
>>31793680It's more than just localizationA bunch of different companies made content for the game. Some of them stuck pretty close to the Japanese model, some of them just made their own shit (the Korean version was pay2win). There's all sorts of shit out there. Which is nice because it allows room for convenient GM asspulls.
>>31799910There are a ton of errors but as >>31799945 said it's in draft form, so I'm not going to bother for now.>>31799945>those are skills open to all of the magic-using classesOh that's interesting. Are there similarly shared lists for warriors, weapon-based, and healers? (I noticed that several healing classes referred to Resurrection but I didn't see it anywhere, so here's to hoping that this is true...)
>>31800028Yes, each of the 4 different types (Tank, Healer, Weapon, Magic) has its own skill list that is shared among the 3 classes of that type.
>>31769247Two things worth mentioning about Hate. Firstly, enemies don't HAVE to attack the guy with aggro ("Hate Top".)Secondly, the extra damage taken by the guy holding aggro is applied after the normal damage and is considered "direct damage", which does not have the PC's defense (reduction) applied to it.
>>31800187That second part makes it interesting for the GM, since D&D 4e's tanking largely created lose-lose situations for the GM (which meant that enemies would behave arbitrarily, since they would be screwed in either case).I like it.
What does Arch-class mean? Subclass?
>>31800355Probably, seeing as sub-class isn't mentioned.
>>31800355Arch-class (I'm presuming that's an awkward translation) is the archetype your Main Class falls under (Tank, Healer, Weapon, Magic). Your sub-class is, uh, your sub-class. Stuff like Blacksmith, Scribe, Cook, Prostitute, ect.
Alright, two questions:1. What do sub-classes do? I mean, they do DO things, yeah? I see references to a bunch of production subs in the general skills, but I want to get my Berserker on.2. Is there a mechanical benefit to /glassesadjust?
>>31800623>Is there a mechanical benefit to /glassesadjust?But that would be unfair to the subhuman non-glasses-wearing unwashed masses. Unless airglasses count.
>>31798948>and there is Cthulhu-esque dungeon at the bottom of the Mariana Trench that has a staggering list of complicated requirements to even reach.Where was this stated? I've read all the books that are currently translated into english and I haven't heard anything about this.
>>31799945Really? Huh. In that case, then I guess the Arch-class should go in that tab instead.
By the way, do we have a scan or something like that yet?
>>31802428there's only a rough character creation pdfand a chart of racial skills>>31799149>>31799175Plus the pastebin link in OP's post has all the class skills
>>31802472I know, I'm the guy who made the rough character creation PDF.I was talking about scans of the original Japanese book. You can often get some decent information out of rulebooks even if you don't understand the language.
>>31802537not that I'm aware of
>>31799945So, weapon class, healer class, etc, are additional skills, not just a category?
>>31799992>close to the Japanese modelIn the lore of the LN, the game is actually an American MMO. That's why when Americans chose pirate to replace samurai, every other country that didn't have a replacement as well defaulted to pirate.
>>31801067It's from Mamare's world notes. He stated in one of the Q&As that they're pretty much canon since we'll never see the other servers, outside of maybe one coming up in volume eight, in the actual novels.Information from Mamare's old googledocs. Missing a couple guilds, one or two locations, the war between Korean and Chinese players when it was still an mmo, and all of the cities we added to my map which Mamare deemed canon last time he was here.http://pastebin.com/SVHDd394
Once this is done does anybody plan to put it all into a nice format?
>>31804577I was planning to compile everything in some way, but I can't into nice aesthetics.It would mostly be simple black-and-white like the character creation file.
What if, in new seasons, there will be inter-continental travel?THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES
>>31804827That's what Gryphons are for.
Guys, we can make working swordmages with this
>>31804840I thought griffons didn't last that long. In the anime itself they could only get half-way across Japan in one flight. The fact that they were able to make a steamboat did raise my spirits.
>>31804883Forgot to change my STR and INT modifier for the attributes after playing around with the stats
>>31804840Actually, that's what boats are for, however, a lot of high level monsters live out in the ocean. Well, at least high level when the seafaring expansion was released.
>>31804896They last for a limited time only, I think.Also, there are already steam powered ships that can, probably, travel.And there are always fairy rings that teleport you to a place determined by the star and moon positions.
>>31804883Maybe you can factor in spellthief, whatever that does.
>>31804541No info about the Scandinavian server?
>>31778345Will probably make a hit and run character, I think. Low defense will work out with speed, barriers and runes, I think.
>>31804883Close Burst isn't limited to spells, and you can use Foxtail to pick it up on any class.Close Burst Monk anyone?
Foxtail is only General skills. Close Burst is a Combat skill.You could have a monk with Fly though.
>>31807168By General skills you mean Weapon Masteries and such? Or class archetype general skills too?
>>31807221>You gain 1 General skill from a list other than your Arch-class, Main Class, or Race. You may increase the SR of that skill as normal. (Bonus) Decrease your Max HP by 10
>>31807312That means that you can get one any skill from other archetypes, classes and races?That's a huge list.
>>31807375No, because they're marked General or Combat or whatever. Apart from Sorcerer, each class only has a few skills marked General.I guess you could get an abnormally high Pow by copying Elven Teachings or Dwarven Skill, though I'm not sure how useful that would be. Or you could pick a second subclass skill and craft two kinds of items, though again...
>>31804541>that city in Poland called Kurwa>New Londonheim on the FalklandsOh Mamare, you so silly.
>>31805905The only thing that's known are the different classes at this point.http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2014/03/23/log-horizon-international-server-class-poll-goes-live
>>31807168The Sorcerer's Flip Gate could be good on a tank since it gets allies out of danger and generates decent hate. Then again, why are you trying to tank with the squishiest race?Taking Mind's Eye ("no sneaking up on me") from Samurai looks like it could be useful on a spellcaster to protect them from Assassins.
>>31807722>Not being an archer with Phantom Step and maxing out speed
>>31776291RoRSorcererSigilmakerI shall be the wizardest.
>>31804541So why is the U.S. split between servers like that? It looks like an arbitrary line.
>>31807903I think the author didn't care enough to trace the borders, or the map there really looks like that now. It did have its gang wars and such that changed the owner of some territories.
>>31807964This. Though the only server lines that changed were between China and Korea. Forget who won the toll land.
>>31805905None. No guilds, no areas, nothing.>>31807715Uh, incorrect. Mamare posted all the alternate classes a few weeks ago.
>>31807640Those are fanmade. Mamare probably has no idea if their significance.
>>31808078Who cares. He deemed them "canon" after the finale.
>>31808059>I live in England>Scandinavian server>VikingFIRST TO THE BATTLE, FIRST TO THE FEAST!
>>31808059Well, at least Lumberjack is gone.
>>31808200Wait minute... I don't remember England being part of Scandinavian... Should't England being part of Western Europe server?
>>31776291race:werecatclass: im torn between either monk ( who would be good against a single person) or swashbucklersubclass: berserker would compliment both of the classes im torn aparteither way im going with the solo-army build
>>31807964Who made the map though? I thought this was a fan-made thing. I'm just wondering where the person who made the map got the info for that border.Not that it really matters, it just looks strange.
>>31808276Should, yes, but look at the divisions. It's grouped with Norway and Sweden and the rest, strangely, and besides, the vikings did more or less rule here until the French came and took over in 1066.
Mamare made this for his personal world building use. >>31808013And I based this >>31804541 and it's predecessors off of those server lines since they always sparked a heated discussion.
>>31808432Author's notes, I think.
Dammit.>>31808432 see >>31808515
>>31808515Aha! Thanks. Maybe there were so many players on the North America server that they split some of it to another? Hmm...well, it's probably just a whim or not enough information on the author's part.
>>31808632It's probably because the lines are MSpaint tier and he couldn't be assed to draw them properly. I'd probably just use country lines for that if I were DMing. Not that it matters too much? If you live in the NA part south of that line, you're still almost certainly still going to connect to the NA server. Your physical location has basically zero impact on where you start within your server as far as I can tell.
>>31808842Yeah, not a big deal at all. It would've been interesting if there was a reason for it though.
>>31804541So, why isn't Dixie in Texas?
>>31809047Although not canon, you could probably justify it as being the region that Spain had claimed and is therefore more related to South America; much in the same vein as why the UK counts as Scandinavia.
>>31809120Because Texas is only included in a very broad definition of Dixie?
>>31809120Originally it was in Austin, but the city somehow ended up in South Carolina after a massive discussion on why it the heart of Dixie is in Alabama or some such.>>31809256This.
>>31809288It looks like Dixie may be located where Charleston is in the real world, which makes sense given it's history.
>>31809256>Because Texas is only included in a very broad definition of Dixie?That doesn't explain why Dixie is marked as being part of Austin.>>31809288>Originally it was in Austin, but the city somehow ended up in South Carolina after a massive discussion on why it the heart of Dixie is in Alabama or some such.That makes sense. Thank you.
>>31808059>>31807715Aww my localized class didn't even get an offhand mention.
>a statue of god where their building would be located, called the Monument of the Covenant.>The statue has become a huge joke to players around the worldCan someone explain just how this is a joke? From the pastebin that contains the author's old googledocs.
>>31810520Because it's a bit arrogant and probably looks bloody ridiculous. Though Mamare never really explained it further.
>>31776291Human or wolfearMonkBrewerI like drunken fist
>Western Europe Guild>Straight Panties, guild that only wears panties on the lower half of their bodies.Best guild? Inb4 there are guys.
>>31810652>Best guild? Inb4 there are guys.Of course there are guys! They are ALL guys! Are you saying you're not manly enough to join the ranks of these mighty, manly knights?
>>31810676>>31810652I'm picturing this guild actually just being a gag thing, and they're all mortified when they wake up after the apocalypse in their panties.
>>31810520God is probably the ceo in a buddy christ pose.
I wonder. Did the body builder subclass make it into the trpg?>Bodybuilder - Abnormal Status - Muscle Posing - Bewitch enemy using the beauty of your muscle, stunning them at a chance.>Bodybuilder - Abnormal Status - Muscle Friendship - Increases the chance of stunning enemy when 2 people perform Muscle Posing. Raising the rank of this skill allows the number of people that uses Posing together to increase. If a whole party (that is 6 people) uses Posing, the skill's name is changed to Muscle Dream. If Full Raid (24 people), Muscle Fantasy. If Legion Raid (96 people), Muscle Mythology. The activation of the skill by a Legion Raid, that is 96 people, have only been recorded twice in the whole history of Elder Tale, making the skill counted as one of the rare skills.
>>31810723>a gag thingThese men of Justice are no mere gag guild! The panties represent their creed!The body of the panties represents Strength of arms, keeping your weakest parts safe.The elastic band represents Wisdom, keeping everything in place. No matter how things have changed, the elastic band holds fast.The silken frills represent Honor. Without honor, these men are nothing but mere vigilantes out for some perverse notice of justice.The pain in your crotch represents your drive for Justice! Just as your dangly bits ache, so too do the hearts of all innocents ache when Justice is not done!
>>31810652I bet those pantsu have amazing stat bonuses. Like the giraffe hat. Ridiculous clothing is always the best, it's the law of MMOs.
>>31811935It's not the pantsu. it's the subclass that lets you etch runes onto stuff. basically their entire bodies have runic tatoos that provide the same or better benefits than armour.
>>31811004Dear Gods. There are factions.
>>31810652This is extra silly when you remember Western Europe is supposedly filled with mercenary adventurers serving noblemen and fighting dragons.
OP is love,OP is lifeWe're all rooting for you.
>>31816320And now all I can imagine is 96 people standing in formation, flexing, saying, as one: u mirin' brah?
>>31816957Even the mages and healers.Especially the mages and healers
Someone throw down the archive.
>>31816957this has to be playing over skypehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyx6JDQCslE
>>31815859>fighting dragonsMore like staying in the castles, letting all Landers outside to be killed by mobs.
>>31819858What shitty Adventurers. Why in god's name would you play on EU if not to slay dragons?
>>31796277It's the starting health potion that you meet in many online games
>>31819858More like killing dragons and serious business and ignoring the shit mobs that kill landers.
>>31821211Well, you know. Protecting the lord's castle and all that royal court stuff. Also, Adventurers are, basically, WMDs for the kings there.
>>31808059>Want to be pirate>Paladin class on my serverI cri
>>31821290What's a paladin?
>>31810652>>31810676Manliest guild>>31810723After apocalypse underwear didn't exist because it wasn't a part of player's equipment that's why after crafting rediscovery these were first to be made in bulk
>>31821259>>31821280So what you're telling me is, Straight Panties is the only thing standing between the peasants and horrible death? That when the Landers see the glorious nearly naked forms on the horizon, they rejoice knowing their salvation is at hand?Because that's my headcanon now.
>>31821332Maybe. Also, its War of the Three Kingdoms in China. And depending on area, its either gang wars, or pioneer exploration in NA.
>>31821406And all we know about New Zealand and Australia is that there's a big pacifist guild in Perth.Want to be a Hunter so bad, but nothing is known about them or the area they exist in
>>31821520So make up some stuff!Just don't be the guy reposting stale spider crap for the nth time.
>>31822004Umm, okay...There's a great big raid dungeon carved from the stone under UluruCoober Pedy is a hub of underground roads leading across the continent used by players, but is undiscovered by NPCs.The parrot-men of New Zealand are the most intelligent and peacful demi-humans, the peacefulness is a side-effect of their intelligence, they're smart enough to know that causing trouble leads to adventurers.
>>31804910This is pretty fun. I believe Druids might make a better gish though, since they have abilities that work off of weapon attack. Plus, they can equip spears and axes and have some decent armor choices.
>>31823898The game isn't even translated and we are already working on the best crunch. /tg/ everyone!
>>31821406Unfortunately that "war" is only taking place in a single city, and it's more of a standoff between three of the biggest guilds.On the other hand Korea is the server that has broken itself up into three kingdoms, but they're too busy trying to find enough resources to survive.
>>31824317To be fair I inferred some of what I said from the LN data. The TRPG performs differently - for instance, Summoners don't have that HP nerf that the LN has. It might also be likely that Enchanters don't have the sprinkler build.Right now it's just conjecture.
>>31824317Some of it translated.
Can't wait for the Assassin skills. Need dat BIG DAMAGE.
>>31800853Airglasses totally count.
>>31829664Assassin + Hunter subclassHow many arrows?
>>31829664Supposedly Assassinate isn't the strongest skill, it's the Assassinate equivalent for 2h weapons.Can't wait to shank someone with a claymore.
>>31831867Well duh, BIG SWORD = BIG DAMAGE, I thought everyone knew that.
>>31833332You wouldn't know it if all you saw was Akatsuki offing things with her shortsword.
I hope swashbucklers or pirates or someone gets an equivalent to Titans Grip.My desire in most games is to dual weild giant weapons, and too many RPGs and MMOs either make it impossible, or simply not worth it
>>31826018I wonder if Issac's silly combo build is possible.
>>31836524Doubt it, the dual-wieldung build is already considered the extravagant, even if most commone one in the source material.If any class could get that skill, it's the Guardian.
Any news about translation?
>>31843110No updates in a while, hopefully OP is just busy with other stuff and not kill.Went ahead and archived just in case, we're only 38 posts from bump limit.
>Skill called magical gatherer.So you could say they are in charge of Magic Gathering?
You da best, OP. Keep up the good work.
I wonder how big a group we could manage to make.
>>31849342Well, considering that Guilds are a thing...This is just begging for a large group stress test.
>>31849473and on the note of guilds.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O22RtQ2_gI
>>31810804>body builder subclass>posing abilitiesI think I am in love
>>31849473I was thinking more along the lines of home servers generally based on a person's RL timezone to handle events better (that way you dont have a small group up to no good while you're too asleep to stop it) but I like your idea a bit too. I kinda figured guilds worked better as a nemesis than as something to make.All of the Japanese guilds use fairly "evil" means of control and are viable BBEG groups.
Here's a question, why not let players take two subclasses: A Production one and a Roleplaying one. That way, you don't have to miss out on an entire facet of the game (crafting in this case) just because you want to do something rather cool. IT seems like something that devs would come up with.
>>31850081You can house rule whatever you want, if you host it.
>>31850081Because Letting players do everything is stupid and gives less of a reason for people to work together. Roleplaying classes let people have fun and many of them give combat bonuses, while Crafting classes let people provide items to others. Letting people give themselves combat bonuses and craft the items they need gives less of a reason to form guilds and parties as solo play becomes more accessible.Hell 3 of the classes (bard, kannagi, and enchanter) are all based around buffing allies to force people to party up.
>>31850081There are plenty of games that work like that. Sometimes being a merchant etc. is a class in its own right, and you give up combat skills entirely by becoming one. They're still popular.
>>31850174>>31850221>>31850254Valid points, and I won't say that I didn't enjoy playing Reccitear at times. An idea on my part: how about including a quest that allows two sub-classes, with the 2nd starting at 0. Anyway, we will see when the translation is finished.
>>31850081I dont know. that's just the way it was designed. My best guess is that it encourages people buying extra characters so that they have a crafting mule.
This reminds me. In the same way that Shiroe writes that one contract up, I wonder if an Overskill for Scribe could be developed to create contracts that allow the signing party to change their primary class
>>31851504Why? Create a new character instead, since its doesn't have levels to grind.
>>31853258I'm sure it would be possible, but I'm not sure why anyone would waste rare materials doing something like that unless they just reaaaaaaally didn't like their class for some reason.
>>31853319Imagine being stuck on an alt, which you hate, but use because the abilities are good for farming.
>>31853468Why would you log in to an alt before your main on day 1 of a new expansion release?
>>31853525Misclick, wanting to transfer an item over, not feeling like talking to Dickass Bob who's on your main's friend list, ect.
>>31853525Only Japan had the expansion, if I'm not mistaken.
>>31853319Unlikely but you might have leveled a character that you've gotten sick of because it's used often and was ordered by the guild to be on that character for expansion day if they weren't the type to give day1 as a day off.I know when I'm in a guild I eventually get sick of a certain job/class I normally like due to overuse even if it's because i'm good at it.>>31853647American game. Expansion was worldwide.
>>31853749Unfortunately, on their Earth Japan was the first and only server to get the expansion. Makes absolutely no sense, but there you have it. I'd just house rule that fact away, even though it ruins the entire premise of the greatest party ever.
>>31854604No... they really werent. it was a worldwide release. The bloody NAME of the expansion even hints that if the other servers didn't have the expansion go live they wouldn't be stuck in the database to begin with.I have no idea where you got your idea from but you need to find the person that told you that and call them an idiot.
>>31854752From Mamare you dolt. It's the entire plot of the sidestory. No other servers can reach past 90.
>>31772814>Super ConsoleHoly shit, someone except for me has read that.
>>31776291Race of RitualEnchanterCookFull suppot mode.
>>31854817I don't see how the servers could still be connected if they're not all running the same version.
>>31855675Well they aren't servers anymore now are they?
>>31855675They've never run the same version. Each regional host adds tons of their own quests, events, subclasses, gear, etc.Hell, the SEA version of Elder Tales doesn't even mesh with the rest of the world since they pull from their own mythology instead of the games overarching story. It's the reason why people flock there since it's like a different world.
>>31854817Where? I even rechecked the very first novel and there is no mention of Japan specifically being the only one to get the expansion released. Where did Marmalade say this because he clearly didn't say it in any of the LNs. Not only that but the entire logistics of it being that way are too stupid for it to be real with a writer that actually bothers to think this sort of stuff out.Australia for example due to being generally in the same time zones would also have the expansion live if it was a timezone thing.Plus the expansion was pre installed. For what purpose would an american company have Japan get to play their worldwide game in advance while everyone else cant access the same/equivalent product they paid for and downloaded? You'd end up with everyone rushing Japan to play expansion content until their home servers unlock it. Hell under your scenario people would have planned to just run to japan to max out levels and then go back after raping the entire server of it's expansion content.If it was characters of Japanese origin only then most of the Japanese guilds would have been on other servers raping the expansion content while noone else could fight it. Do you have any idea of the consequences of what you're claiming would have?
>>31855853Mamare notes, Kanami's side story, and a bunch of Japanese sites. I believe the Japanese wiki and the original web novels also make a mention of the fact.Believe me, I know it makes little sense, but it's the actual story.
>>31855853If it's any added benefit /a/'s had a theory for a few months now that the restriction is slowly lifting as the world grows. It would explain a few things, especially the ancient being waking up in the Bermuda Triangle.
>>31856126I thought Kanami's side story involved her being in Europe and doing a journey to the east. Why do that if it's still a game? Plus, isn't one of her party members a newly sentient gold farming bot?
>>31856220Kanami's story takes place at the same time as the main novels and Mamare has hinted that if Shiroe wants to succeed against whatever big bad is out there he'll need outside help from an unexpected source aka Kanami's party.Anyway, the entire reason for the journey is due to Kanami somehow knowing that Japan is the only server that got the new expansion content, and her wanting to hit the new cap.Yes.> Coppelia is the Chinese bot. > Leonardo is the TMNT cosplayer that is falling for Coppelia.>Kanami was the leader of the Tea Party before moving to Rome.>KR is one of the original members of the Tea Party that stuck his soul in one of his summons and traveled west before running into Kanami. Sacrificed his summon/life and is now back in his original body in Minami.>Elias Hackblade is the hero of the game's main story and is the character on all the boxart.
>>31856220>sentient gold farming botwat
>>31856421Okay, I think I got confused on what everyone was talking about. What you're saying is that Japan got an exclusive content patch that raised the level cap.I thought you were trying to say that Japan is the only country living in the Database. That's mostly due to me assuming the update caused the Apocalypse though.
>>31856520Ah, sorry about that. No one knows the cause since it didn't happen at midnight when the release went live, but at 12:02.
>>31856520Well, the series hints that the update DID coincide with the Apocalypse, which was a World Fraction-level magical event that shoved the personalities and minds of the players into their Adventurer avatars. Which is why Landers are like 'HOLY SHIT THEY TALK NOW, WHY DON'T THEY ACCEPT QUESTS?!'And somehow this coincides with the destruction of the legendary heroes (as seen in Kaname's story), as well as the <<Genius>> monsters and the weird shit going on (like a raid boss damaging itself to spawn more mobs, and three raid bosses assisting each other).
>>31856126Aaaand I accidentally deleted my post but I'm now disappointed in marare for not holding back his inner YAMATO DAMASHI.Shiroe even specifically got teleported after he clicked ok in unlocking his expansion.Did everyone outside of Japan forget to check their menus after a month?(allowing for time dilation for the popup to occur)Mamare either seriously did not think through the consequences of that "little" action or Japan is about to get annexed by the rest of the planet as word spreads cross server which is easily done.
>>31856656Yeah, I think the main confusion might be from operating off of that assumption. If you assume that the expansion causing it, then saying other countries didn't get the expansion raises several questions and plot-holes.Without it, I do question why Japan got an exclusive update, but it's nothing too unusual.
>>31855842They had to have had run the same build as the other countries, else adventuring parties couldn't travel to other countries.What I'm wondering is how the whole world got pulled into the Database if only Japan received the update.Like >>31856126 says, it makes no sense.>>31856421KR was probably communicating with her via IM or something, just like how Ooshima was talking with Shiroe.
>>31856802I'd bet that the update is just a red herring, and everything going on is only coincidentally related to it by dint of happening at the same time.I agree with the other posters, the update makes no sense in that context, and probably has nothing but coincidence with it.
>>31856757For all we know it could have been a server stress-test or something to make sure the expansion didn't explode the game (somewhat ironic in retrospect), and the rest of the servers were slated to get the update later that day.>>31856802>They had to have had run the same build as the other countriesWrong, as long as it was all based off the same framework there is nothing stopping various servers from running different versions as long as a program was in place to rationalize objects from different server versions.>What I'm wondering is how the whole world got pulled into the Database if only Japan received the update.I swear to fucking god if I have to say this one more time... IT WAS MAGIC, MAGIC DID IT, A COMPUTER PROGRAM CANNOT TELEPORT PEOPLE INTO AN ALTERNATE DIMENSION.
>>31856866>I swear to fucking god if I have to say this one more time... IT WAS MAGIC, MAGIC DID IT, A COMPUTER PROGRAM CANNOT TELEPORT PEOPLE INTO AN ALTERNATE DIMENSION.This.The only theories we have at the moment for who could have possibly cast such a spell are the Six Scrapped Princesses who are said to be dead, and the rumored city of Alvs hidden in the Tibetan mountains.
>>31856972I'm betting on it being the Race of Ritual.There whole back story is just a bunch of mysteries and they are the most magically powerful of the races common to the land.
>>31856972I am waiting to hear more of WHY this happened. I mean, if the Scrapped Princesses are alive (and perhaps behind the Geniuses?), it makes sense in context.
>>31857031They're not a mystery at all. RoR are just humans that were experimented on. They were created alongside werecats, foxtails, and wolfhairs.Can't remember if it was before or after the Alvs were wiped out.
>>31857103Damnit read somewhere that they were from a mysterious tribe, there goes my cool headcanon for the race .
>>31856866Your first reply answers the problem of different builds, thanks.Your second reply implied that I said a computer program pulled them in, which I can understand why you'd think that reading it now. I wasn't being very clear and I apologize.I never said a computer program pulled the whole world into the Database, I was just wondering WHY it happened to the whole world at the same time the update happened, that only one country installed. That goes back to the question of builds, which you answered. Either way, like >>31856852 said, it was probably just one huge coincidence.
>>31858618>it was probably just one huge coincidence.But its not. One major hint about the ET world they're in is that flavor texts for equipment and drops become real.Its possible the latest Novasphere expansion may have introduced new raid bosses aka 'Geniuses' or 'Alv Princesses' and their lore had something to do with whisking people into the game.
>>31858929The point is it wasn't causal. The expansion didn't contain some malicious magical sourcecode that caused everyone's computers to become inter-dimensional gateways of their own accord. The expansion certainly facilitated it in some way, even if it was just the catalyst for a dickass wizard to wake up and decide "Haha, time for World Fraction!" or something along those lines.
>>31859048>The expansion didn't contain some malicious magical sourcecode that caused everyone's computers to become inter-dimensional gateways of their own accord.Actually I take that back, partially, because if we operate under the assumption that it is possible for someone to have embedded a functional magical formula into the game it isn't impossible they they could have uploaded just that specific bit to all the servers independent of the rest of the expansion content, though I have no explanation as to why the hell they would do that.
>>31859148Since I think you can interact between servers, they probably released a patch to make sure they wouldn't crash due to new expansion content.
>>31859211Fair enough, that would make sense.