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    104 KB Attempt at homebrewing an Epic-scale game Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)07:49 No.3077034  

    There was a very interesting Epic thread recently, which got me thinking about making a non-40k game using similar mechanics.

    Its big "thing" was unlike Epic, where you bought "detachments" which were always the same, your army would be based on a number of "companies" or "sections" (half-companies) which you then split into as many control groups as you wanted. You would be encouraged to do this, because there would be combined-arms synergies for certain units (for example, if you had a certain ratio of Battle Armour to infantry, the infantry gained additional firepower bonuses - and these stacked. Say the golden ratio was 2:1 meatbags to mechs for a given bonus. If you had 4 squads of men in a group and 2 points of BA, the bonus would be doubled.

    At the company level, you would have immense choice in assembling your force. Each company entry would have a "basic composition" at rock-bottom points for bulking out your force with grunts, a "standard composition" which would be a relatively balanced force (for single-company games) and then the option to customise a company for specific roles.

    Companies could also exist in three different tech levels, from basic up to experimental. This would adjust the cost and unit options accordingly.

    Choosing the size of a game would thus have two parameters - number of companies and company cost. So if you wanted a massive battle of grunts, you'd say have a large number of low-cost companies.

    (more to follow)
    (Hygogg unrelated)
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)07:56 No.3077040
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    The provisional list of company options for one faction (I'm doing this a faction at a time, and the first one is your typical "high-tech empire") are as follows:

    Infantry (Motorised Infantry are just an upgrade)
    Armour (Encompasses Artillery, Mobile Anti-Air)
    Special (Field HQs, Field Engineering Bases, Stationary Emplacements)
    Mech (Everything from Battle Armour to things the size of small Titans)
    Air (Ranges from light fighters up to anti-gravity battleships)
    Naval (Ships of all sizes)

    If you can suggest any I've missed, feel free.

    Before I go on, a word on the setting. Essentially, you have a river delta with two nations, one on each side. These nations are always going to war with each other for land and shipping rights to the river. Tech level is 3025-era Battletech meets Command and Conquer with a few nods to stuff like Front Mission, Ace Combat and Gundam (so there are anti-gravity flying fortresses, experimental mechs with particle beams and small Titan-like war machines)

    That's to start with. Two factions with largely similar tech to get the system down, and then expand it across the planet with other nations as I get more confident at balancing.

    (More to Follow)
    (UrbanMS unrelated)
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)08:06 No.3077061
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    As to game mechanics, I want a compromise between the rules-heavy nature of early editions of Epic and the abstraction of 3rd and 4th edition. I'll probably keep standardised "Anti-Infantry/Anti-Tank/Anti-Air" values, and then add on top of that individual rules for units in the form of passive bonuses or one-shot weapons.

    For example, a 3rd Generation (high-tech, 2nd being basic and 4th being experimental) AA mech may make "chained" attacks, because it's armed with 8 flak cannons. If it hits, regardless of if it damages the target, it may attack another valid target (so if it starts firing at aircraft it can only "chain" aircraft) within the control group and within range, until it misses or 4 hits have been allocated.

    The 2nd Generation AA mech doesn't have that rule, but instead may make a special missile attack, done like a Cyclone Missile in old 40k - it has 8 shots, and may fire as many in one round as it likes.

    By giving each unit a special rule or two, I'm trying to get a sense of the variety of old Epic without the complexity. There will also be, thus, a reason to field a mix of units (the 3G AA unit can suppress or break up formations easily, while the 2G one is better against large air targets with its missiles) and there will be EXCITEMENT AND GAMBLE.

    For group activations, I'm thinking groups have no coherency per se, but some synergies will have range limitations. That way you can have artillery attached to an infantry group, and the infantry can move ahead and spot for it.
    >> I apologized on 4chan 11/28/08(Fri)11:25 No.3077354
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    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)11:51 No.3077456
    That's reassuring, but not hugely helpful.
    >> OP 11/28/08(Fri)12:14 No.3077521
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    So, it's time to talk serious business.

    Unit stats. I'm thinking:
    Speed: 2 values, Move and Class. Speed Classes are:
    Slow: Full Round Move is 1.5x Move
    Normal: Full Round Move is 2x Move
    Fast: Full Round Move is 2.5x Move

    Armour: A grade between 1 and 5. This is how much is taken off the dice roll when attacking. Armour 5 units are stupidly rare, and civilian units are Armour 0

    Hits: The number of hits it takes to destroy the stand or unit. Also the number of shots it fires, unless it has other rules.

    Resolve: A morale stat.

    Weapons have the following stats:

    Range: Self-explanatory

    Shots: The number of shots each model in the stand makes. The total number of dice rolled is Hits x Shots

    Base Strength: A number between 1 and 10. Roll over this to hit. Low is good.

    Armour Mitigation: A number between 1 and 5, which counteracts armour's negative modifiers. Most weapons are AM0, and high-AM weapons can cause auto-hits.

    Target Modifiers: Modifiers between +5 and -5 which are used when firing at specific targets. The layout of the stat is AI/AT/AA (Infantry/Tank/Air) Most weapons are at least +0 against most targets, and usually about -2 against Air.

    A sample unit card:

    2nd Generation AA Mechs (Northwood VI)
    Speed: 10cm
    Armour: 2 (quite tough mechs)
    Hits: 4/Stand
    Resolve: 6 (Perfectly average)

    60mm Light AA Gun
    Range: 20cm
    Shots: 1
    Base Strength: 8+
    Armour Mitigation: 1
    Target Modifiers: +2/+0/+2 (good vs Infantry/Air, OK versus tanks)

    70mm Rockets: The lance may fire its rocket pods instead of its flak guns. Each mech has eight rockets, and may fire up to eight of them in a turn. All mechs in the lance must fire the same number of rockets.

    70mm Rocket:
    Range: 30cm
    Shots: 1-8
    Base Strength: 8+
    Armour Mitigation: 2
    Target Modifiers: -2/+1/+1
    >> I apologized on 4chan 11/28/08(Fri)12:14 No.3077522

    Well, there's not really much I can say. I like what you've got so far, but you haven't really shown me anything that I can pass comment on.

    I like the 4-tier technology system, I like that you'll be keeping lower tiers relevant, and I like the concept of being able to see bonuses to fielding mixed unit types.

    Your formation creation sort of sounds like how the Imperial Guard worked in Epic Armageddon. They would have a basic core (usually infantry or tanks) and you could attatch detatchments to that formation, though you wouldn't get the synergy bonuses that you would in this (obviously.)
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)12:16 No.3077530
    >> OP 11/28/08(Fri)12:24 No.3077563
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    EDIT: FUCK, I forgot the Northwood VI's Speed Class. It's Medium.


    Activating a group means you can pick one Action for each stand within it. These are:

    Full Round Move: Move your speed, multiplied by either 1.5, 2 or 2.5 according to your Speed Class.
    Move and Engage: Move your unmodified speed, and attack at -1 to your roll.
    Close and Engage: Move half your speed, and attack with no penalty.
    Full Round Attack: Attack at +1 to all rolls.
    Overwatch: Remain stationary and attack with no penalty at an enemy unit during their turn.
    Counteract: "Delay" a move action until your opponent's turn. You may only move your unmodified speed.
    Fortify: Remain stationary and do nothing. Until you move, your armour is one grade higher.

    Melee combat is abstracted. Melee weapons are simply range 0 weapons, and unless a weapon is range 0 or has the Small Arms rule, it takes -2 to all firing in base-to-base contact.
    >> OP 11/28/08(Fri)12:31 No.3077590
    Hopefully now there are some rules it will be better. Combat is as follows:

    It's a simple D10 roll against a target number.

    Take your weapon's Strength, and that's it. Then subtract the opponent's armour and add your weapon's target bonuses and anti-armour bonus.

    Each Hit you take off a stand reduces the number of shots it can put out.

    Example: A Northwood VI stand fires at another one.

    The basic To Hit is 8+, less 2 for armour (so you would need a 10 to hit.) However, the flak gun has Armour Mitigation 1, so you only need 9+.

    If you stayed still and attacked, that would go back to 8+.

    If you were firing at a Armour 2 air unit, then you'd be on 7+ normally or 6+ for a Full Round Attack, because the Flak Gun is +2 against air.
    >> I apologized on 4chan 11/28/08(Fri)12:54 No.3077676

    I like the speed and speed class idea, though it seems like the first thing that you'd forget to do in the middle of a game. I do like the idea though. Probably Easier just to have Move and Full Round Move as set numerical values.

    >A grade between 1 and 5. This is how much is taken off the dice roll when attacking. Armour 5 units are stupidly rare, and civilian units are Armour 0

    THIS. I LIKE THIS. It handily represents how some weapons can counteract armour, and damage reduction in a single stat.


    >Hits: The number of hits it takes to destroy the stand or unit. Also the number of shots it fires, unless it has other rules.

    I'm not sure about this, it seems like there'd be a lot of bookeeping for this, where the Blast Marker mechanic for E:A represents it pretty well, with no need for bookeeping.

    >Armour Mitigation: A number between 1 and 5, which counteracts armour's negative modifiers. Most weapons are AM0, and high-AM weapons can cause auto-hits.

    I don't hate it, combined with strength gives a decent way of portraying high penetration - low damage weapons.

    >Target Modifiers: Modifiers between +5 and -5 which are used when firing at specific targets. The layout of the stat is AI/AT/AA (Infantry/Tank/Air) Most weapons are at least +0 against most targets, and usually about -2 against Air.

    I like this too, it's a good adaptation of the Epic rules that makes sense.

    Most of the orders seem functional. Only one way to find out for sure though.
    >> OP 11/28/08(Fri)13:01 No.3077693
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    You're dead right on the Speed Class thing. I'll keep that as what goes on behind the scenes, and have the stated speed as "10 (20)" or "20 (50)"

    Stuff could have a high Speed Class but a low speed to represent something that takes a long time to get up to speed but can cover ground steadily, while a high base speed but low Speed Class would represent jump jets or secondary movement systems.

    As to Hits and Shots, I wanted a compromise between highly resilient units a la Battletech/BFG and mowing down waves of men in single shots like Epic.

    I'll look again at Epic's Blast Marker rules and try to make a compromise.

    I guess it's time to start statting out units and testing the game - this is the fun part!
    >> I apologized on 4chan 11/28/08(Fri)13:18 No.3077755

    Yeah, I've been meaning to ask, are you the same guy who did all of that Mekton Zeta stuff on sup/tg/?
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)13:23 No.3077781
    I like, I like. Perhap a few tweaks to make it smooth, but mostly good.

    So, cover would add to the strength value of a stand (and lack of it reducing in certain circumstances)?

    To add my own two sense, I've always wanted a change in how 'range' in games work - the fact that bolters can never, ever hit anything further than 24 inches annoys the crap out of me, for example.

    Simply have an accuracy level (alv) of each unit ranging from 1 to 5 (5 being best) and range incriments of within 12", 24" and 36".

    1d10 To-hit roll at 12": A.lv-1<4, A.lv-2<6, A.lv-3<8, A.lv-4 auto-hit, A.lv-5 auto-hit.
    1d10 To-hit roll at 24": A.lv-1<2, A.lv-2<4, A.lv-3<6, A.lv-4<8, A.lv-5 auto-hit.
    1d10 To-hit roll at 36": A.lv-1<1, A.lv-2<2, A.lv-3<4, A.lv-4<6, A.lv-5<8.
    Or something like that.
    >> L@@K PLAYTEST RULES INSIDE OP 11/28/08(Fri)13:34 No.3077840
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    I sure am. The setting I'm working on is one which I feel fits wargames nicely, and I'd quite like to have a system for using the whole gamut of units featured in the fiction I've written (Mekton doesn't support infantry or naval units too well, and its aircraft rules are a tad simplistic)

    Urban War does range bands, and does it very well. However, I don't think they would suit this, since by definition a large-scale game abstracts a lot of things.

    But now, the main attraction! War For The South Seas Alpha Rules!

    Get them here: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yz2jumkzmxc

    The .zip contains:

    "Alpha Rules," detailing everything written so far. For the minute there are no points values or anything, so just try out the style of combat.
    Datacards for the 2nd Generation Infantry (with Weapon Team variations), Main Battle Tank, Anti-Air Mech, General Purpose Mech and APC.

    In terms of force compositions, a Company would be 10 lances (stands) of mechs, 10 tanks or a variable number of infantry.

    A company is 10 Platoons. Each Platoon is between 1 and 5 Stands of infantry, with or without transports.

    A max-size company is thus 50 stands of infantry and 25 transport vehicles.
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)13:34 No.3077842
    So all units can fire with standard weapons a fair distance (inch scale is a little off perhaps, that table is what I used for an epic-scale game involving flying castles), with less accurate weaponry or troopers rarely hitting until at a closer range; also encouraging everyone to get up-close and personal for that auto-hit (providing they don't have cover, or aren't moving at great speed perhaps).
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)13:42 No.3077879
    Youf fluff sucks absolute balls.
    Read this:
    Think again.
    >> OP 11/28/08(Fri)13:47 No.3077909
    This is very interesting to me, thanks for pointing it out.

    The fluff was really a secondary consideration while the rules were being worked out - it's only loosely based on the setting as a whole, focussing on a single campaign in a larger war.

    This may change, though. If I brought in the entire setting, it would be quite different.
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)13:50 No.3077922
    The tram was descending into the depths of the geofront. I looked down, at the approaching streets of Lower Kepler. After all this time, I was back on Mars.

    The station turnstiles let me though. It was just a short walk to the hotel where I was to meet the contact. At Pravda Square I passed the statue of a half-melted flamer tank and two heroic figures climbing on top of it to fly the flag of the Progressive Alliance, and smirked. We were young back then, and imagined ourselves revolutionaries, but when the time came to fight, we were all useless and frightened babies. That tank, on this very square, I remembered now: It had just melted half our unit, along with most of the street, when Inder fried it from behind with a 'tac. Too little, too late. The Proggies lost, that time. But I learned from our mistakes.

    The hotel was called Andromache and decorated strictly in early colony kitsch. Space suit helmets and mission logos lined the walls. Huge paintings depicting muscular men and women, slogans telling of the brotherhood of humanity and that we all must strive for the common good. I ordered a coffee at the bar, and got it in a rusty tin with the insignia of Fed Col marine corps. Everything about this meeting seemed designed to spook me, to remind of past mistakes. I tried to shrug it off as a cute gesture, but it did get to me.

    "Lev Casillas?" The suited, stereotypical looking G-man was wearing tech-specs made to look like sunglasses. "Nice to see you here. So I take it you've decided to take us up on our offer?"
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)13:56 No.3077952
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    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)14:02 No.3077982
    Is that there some Metal Slug?
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)14:03 No.3077986

    No, it is not.
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)14:11 No.3078011
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)14:33 No.3078113
    >> Anonymous 11/28/08(Fri)14:46 No.3078164
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    It was once known as SF3D, now known as Maschinen Kreiger. Setting full of powered armor and AI-tanks.
    >> L@@K PRO PAINTED PLAY TEST OP 11/28/08(Fri)14:51 No.3078196
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    Well, I'm running a game solitaire on Vassal, and a few things are coming up that I'm noting down.

    1) Rules for embarking and disembarking. I'm treating it as a free action if you're within 5cm of your vehicle, so you can mount up and leg it if shit goes south.
    2) Initiative. Currently I'm using a "roll off for who goes first each turn" system, and it works quite well.
    3) Group sizes. There's no upper bound. I might keep that, so people can "band-box" and get maximum synergy, but have it impose a penalty on your initiative roll, because the orders have to go to every single unit. The more groups you have, the more autonomous the groups are and so you may get a small bonus. Large groups would then be more defensive and reactive.
    4) Infantry are hard to hit at long range with tanks. Well duh. An all armour force will founder unless you field some AA mechs or (coming soon) AFVs with your tanks.
    5) Lances of mechs will need to be big points. They're multi-hit units which can lay out some terrifying firepower. However, they all have to fire at the same target and so unless they're fighting other multi-hit units they're less useful - otherwise you overkill things. Tanks, on the other hand, will be cheaper and able to split their fire.
    6) Units with multiple weapons. I'm ruling unless the unit has a special rule saying otherwise, you have to choose one. Lances of mechs may get a rule allowing them to divide their shots between different weapons and targets, but I'm worried this will be too powerful.

    I'd urge people to try the rules either solitaire or against long-suffering friends, and post up potential exploits or weaknesses. I'm not sure if Disposable Railguns are too powerful at this stage, they can hit very hard. Equally, AT missiles could be a bit weak - 8+ isn't amazing.
    >> I apologized on 4chan 11/28/08(Fri)14:55 No.3078209

    In all fairness, Machin Kreiger (is that what this is?) does seem to have been the inspiration for a lot of designs from metal slug.
    >> That Space Opera Guy 11/28/08(Fri)20:41 No.3079818
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    This won't die yet. I'm still playtesting!

    Here are some more unit cards I'm working on. They offer some interesting options, mostly giving infantry some added AT punch in the form of APCs with light cannons and allowing armoured companies to have "outriders" (repurposed APCs with bigger guns):

    2nd Generation Transport Vehicle (Anti-Tank)
    Speed: 15cm (30cm)
    Armour: 1
    Hits: 2/Stand
    Resolve: 6

    65mm Autocannon
    Range: 20cm
    Shots: 1
    Base Strength: 8+
    Armour Mitigation: 2
    Target Modifiers: +1/+1/-1

    Transport: A stand of APCs can carry 2 stands of Infantry.

    2nd Generation AFV (Anti-Tank)
    Speed: 15cm (30cm)
    Armour: 1
    Hits: 2/Stand
    Resolve: 6

    65mm Autocannon
    Range: 20cm
    Shots: 1
    Base Strength: 8+
    Armour Mitigation: 2
    Target Modifiers: +1/+1/-1

    TOW Missile: Once per game, the stand may make an attack with the following stats:

    Range: 20cm
    Shots: 1
    Base Strength: 7+
    Armour Mitigation: 1
    Target Modifiers: -1/+1/+1
    >> OP 11/28/08(Fri)20:44 No.3079840
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    >>3079818 (same guy, honest)

    2nd Generation AFV (Anti-Air)
    Speed: 15cm (30cm)
    Armour: 1
    Hits: 2/Stand
    Resolve: 6

    Fast-Tracking Autocannon
    Range: 20cm
    Shots: 2
    Base Strength: 7+
    Armour Mitigation: 0
    Target Modifiers: +1/+0/+2

    Special: Fast-Tracking
    This stand may divide its fire between different targets, and gets +1 on Overwatch shooting.

    2nd Generation AFV (Flamethrower)
    Speed: 15cm (30cm)
    Armour: 0
    Hits: 2/Stand
    Resolve: 6

    Flame Projector
    Range: 10cm/Area 5cm (place a 5cm circular template at the designated area)
    Shots: 1
    Base Strength: 9+
    Armour Mitigation: 0
    Target Modifiers: +4/+0/-5

    Flamer: This unit's attacks ignore cover and Fortification.
    >> OP 11/28/08(Fri)21:41 No.3080198
    And now a little more on tiers/Generations:

    Tier 1: Reserves, Militia and other units not really suitable for front-line use. They will have their own lists, and won't be competitive with higher-tier units.
    Tier 2: Front Line, mass-produced units. Good but not great, with abilities focussed on disposable weapons and ablative armour, so they have a strong start but can get quickly bogged down.
    Tier 3: Elite units. Abilities are either passive upgrades or specialist ammo types, or weirder.
    Tier 4: Experimental units. Generally a 0-1 choice full stop, possibly even equivalent to a whole half company.

    Here's an example of an expensive Tier 3 unit:

    QXV3-S Field Base
    Speed: 5cm (10cm)
    Armour: 4
    Hits: 1/Stand
    Resolve: 6

    Anti-Air Cannons
    Shots: 5
    Range: 20cm
    Base Strength: 8+
    Armour Mitigation: 1
    Target Modifiers: +2/+1/+2

    Range: 25cm
    Shots: 1
    Base Strength: 8+
    Armour Mitigation: 2
    Target Modifiers: +0/+1/+0

    Range: 0cm (Melee Weapon)
    Shots: 4
    Base Strength: 7+
    Armour Mitigation: 2
    Target Modifiers: -2/+0/-5

    Special: Field Repair
    The QXV3-S allows any unit within 10cm of it to force the opponent to re-roll the first hit against it each turn.

    Special: Fire Base
    The QXV3-S may split its fire between multiple targets, allocating hits AFTER dice are rolled.
    >> OP 11/28/08(Fri)21:43 No.3080209
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    Here's an example of a Tier 4 unit:

    "Pelican" Superheavy GCD
    Speed: 15cm (25cm) (Flying Unit)
    Armour: 3
    Hits: 5/Stand
    Resolve: 6

    Cyclic Cannon Arrays
    Range: 30cm, Area 2cm (place a 2cm blast template where the shell hits)
    Shots: 1
    Base Strength: 6+
    Armour Mitigation: 1
    Target Modifiers: +0/+0/+0

    Long Range Missiles:
    Range: 40cm
    Shots: 2 (This number is regardless of the number of Hits)
    Base Strength: 9+
    Armour Mitigation: 2
    Target Modifiers: -2/-1/+4

    Special: Air Carrier
    The Pelican may transport up to 5 stands of fixed-wing aircraft or helicopters, or 1 Light GCD.

    Special: Drop Ship
    The Pelican may transport 1 Section or Company of land units comprising no more than 10 Hits worth of Stands.

    Special: Gargantuan Air Unit: All units firing on the Pelican receive a +1 Target Modifier against it.

    Special: Fire Base
    The Pelican may split its fire between multiple targets, allocating hits AFTER dice are rolled.

    Special: Advanced Fire Control
    The Pelican may fire both its weapons as part of one action.

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