/tg/ is Julius Caesar a mary sue? I mean look at him.>Genius military commander>Great political career.>Good with women.>High Charisma.>Greatly expanded the empire.>Egypt just happened to kill one of his opponents in a plot contrived way.>Died in a dramatic so special snowflake way.This is giving me many warning signs.
>>30697620>Great political career.You're kidding right?His entire career was the Senate shitting on him as much as they could because his Uncle went over their head to pass the Marian Reforms
>real person>History reduced what we really know about him>mfwNo
>>30697674And he still took over them in the end. This seems worse then I thought.
>>30697755No reallyIt's because he had the army, who were shit on by virtue of being connected to himSo they assassinated him after he "won"He lost on the political front, only won on the military oneNow Augustus, HE was a Mary Sue
>>30697620Mary Sue is a term that applies to fictional characters.As best as we know, Julius Caesar really existed.QED: No, you nincompoop.
>>30697779> who were shit on by virtue of being connected to himOkay this made me laugh."Hey gaiz lets go shit all over the guys protecting our asses from the barbarians. No way this can go wrong."
>>30697806>As best as we know, Julius Caesar really existed.You sure about that? You sure you are sure? he doesn't feel realistic to me.
>>30697809No one has EVER claimed the Senate were smart"Hey gaiz, the army now gets land after severing for 20-30 years. Let's spend all our time blocking them from getting their land, so that they are more loyal to the Generals who lead them on conquests(and get land for them) than us"
>>30697620>Greatly expanded the empire.>empire>Julius CaesarHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA-F, see me after class
>>30697846It's even funner in movies and shit today when the protagonist or whoever goes on a four minute long speech and convinces a senator with it. Even though Roman senators where some the slimiest people in all of rome.
>>30697887Don't you know anon. Every nation that has any kind of imperialism is a empire. I learned this from my history class. After we got though 4 months of world world 2.
>>30697921Oh oh I got a good one, before the Marian Reforms"Hai gaiz. I know our Army is built on guys who can afford their own weapons and armor, but why don't WE buy up all the land of the dead soldiers, so no one else can get it and afford weapons and armor"
>>30697943>Implying we'd even recognize Roman Imperialism today.
no because he was realhe is not a wish-fufillment devicedue to that he is simply awesome
>>30697966There is only one kind of imperialism. At least that's what I learned in class. Rome definitely hit that kind when they invaded poor Carthage. They just wanted to be left in piece but of course the Europeans had to invade Africa again which is exactly what imperialism is.
>>30697965Wait what. I'm not even joking right now. Did they really do this?
>>30697620Not a Mary Sue.He didn't immediately turn into a angel upon being stabbed by Brutus and start leveling his attackers with prismatic bolts and thunder from the heavens.Instead he just died like any other faggot stabbed with a knife.
>>30698092>They just wanted to be left in piece>left in pieceWell now they can RIP in PieceRome>Everything else on Earth
>>30698092So Imperialism is only the act of Europeans invading Africa?
>>30698151YesRome used the Citizen Soldier systemTheir land-owning citizens signed on for a Season or two and paid for their own weapons and armorThey died and the Senate started buying up all their land to make themselves more wealthyThey ran out of Land-owning people who could be soldiersSo Gaius Marius came up with the Marian Reforms, the Senate said "no" because the Solders would get land after working for 20-30 years. Marius said "Fuck you" and took the vote directly to the People, they said Yes
>>30698218Mind you I am simplifying things by quite a bitBut this is the basics of what happened
>>30698217Yes. If it was say Asians doing so it wouldn't be imperialism even if they did the exact same things as the euros.>>30698218Some things never change. The incompetence of senators is one of them I guess. Kind of amazing Rome lasted so long really.
>>30698277Wanna know the best part?Caesar was going to keep the Senate around, lower than him but still powerfulBut their assassination of him led to Augustus taking almost all their power from them
>>30698166>Rome>Everything else on EarthAgreed dear anon.
It's only bad if it's fabricated and designed to be that way; it's not bad if it just unfolds to be like that.The story of Julius Caesar wasn't a tale crafted in order to create the ideal imaginary leader, it actually happened.In a similar way, imagine a charismatic dragon-blessed paladin-king of three separate kingdoms, the liberator of nine nations who was beseeched his god to restore his humanity after he was turned into a vampire and who fully decapitated the seven-headed demon-duke of the Infinite Spire with a single swipe of his sword.If this backstory was designed by someone for his character, it's "mary sue" as you call it.If these were all events that occurred over the course of a campaign gradually turning the character into this, that's fucking awesome.Julius Caesar falls into the latter.
>>30698302>Senate around, lower than him but still powerfulThat's honestly one of the most efficient systems a dictator can have. Need someone to keep a eye on the people and make them think their votes matter.
>>30698166>>30698305Arminius was here, Rome a shit.
>>30698339I just think it's hilarious that Napoleon Bonparte let the people vote him Dictator for Life. Then after he was defeated, they did it again with his nephew.
>>30698361Germania hereArminius and Rome a shit
>>30698373Got to admit that takes some charisma right there."Hey guys vote me in as dictator I swear I won't use you all to the best of my ability and pleasure.""Seems legit"
>>30697943>>30698092>>30698277/pol/ pls go
>>30697887The idea of Imperium predates the principate.
>>30698373The Hundred Days is something too>Land with barely 50 men>"Shoot your emperor now or never">Soldiers pick never>After four or five divisions of this, "Louis, brother, stop sending me men, I have enough already"The whole thing rested on diplomancy
>>30698616God, I know. He was such a badass about it too. He ripped his shirt open and shouted "Soldiers! You may fire when ready!" or some shit.I hope I can die with balls half that large.
>>30698642I just can imagine some jackass firing right now.
>>30698663 “If any of you will shoot your Emperor, shoot him now.”Also, it was 600 men
>>30698663Can you imagine being the only guy who fired their rifle at Napoleon? Just that one jackass? Especially if you missed, that would just be terrible.
>>30698697I was imagining more some neckbeard doing the same thing and everyone laughing at the neckbeards hairy belly before giving him lead.
>>30697620And Nero was actually a girl with magical superpowers
>>30698797>Played the fiddle while Rome burned, and people think he started the fire>Wasn't even IN Rome at the time, was out of the City doing diplomatic shitObviously he had magical powers
>>30698797God damn each time I see her I want to cry. Nero was a hairy old man. Yet her personality is so hilarious it doesn't matter any more.
> Baldassarre Cossa> turbo adventures youth> was a shitkicker> was a womanizer> saved a qt gf from the Inquisition> was a pirate> was caught in storm but somehow survived and became a trusted servant to current Pope> suddenly appeared to be cunning and sheming as fuck> eventually became Pope himself> built unimaginable wealth> fucked everything that moves> poisoned a qt gf because fuck her> eventually got overthrown by butthurt haters> still told something to the current Pope that caused him to make Cossa cardinal again> the only real failing was that he probably got robbed by Medici
>>30698381We all know who was the champ of ancient Germanics
>>30698797Why not Elagabalus
>>30697620Mary Sue litmus tests break down hard when you apply them to real people. I once ran guitarist Django Reinhardt through one using details supplied from the most extensive biography I could find. Between being a famous musician, the member of a persecuted minority, have a meaningful name that he gave himself, etc, he scored somewhere in the low 60s on a scale of "35+ means the character is a Sue".
>>30699039Always love those things. Remember one time Gene Simmons scored a 50 some.
>>30699039That's because the real lithmus test is and has always been whether the character is an idealized self-insert.
Could be worse OP, Caligula may have been the biggest That Guy in history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNwLDsOcG_0
>>30699298Well, we all know that God is a hack with no imagination, no sense of humour and a love for self-inserts. Of course he injects Mary Sues all over history.The world is full of real Mary Sues.
>>30699400>Caligula Honestly I wouldn't mind partying with him. Though I would hate to have to be around him constantly.
>>30699400No. His uncle Tiberius was worse. Much worse.
>>30699470>>30699400I remember reading somewhere that Caligula had actually been mocking the senators, priesthood, etc when he did a lot of his crazy moves. His appointment of his horse was meant to mock the senators by telling them that a horse could do your job. The Senate would later slander his name after his death.Apparently he was loved by the people.
>>30699563>Tiberius >WorseTiberius a best.
>>30697887empire with a lowercase e is not the same as Empire ya dingus.
>>30699618It's hard to tell with Roman Emperors. A ton of them are known now as insane when in reality they were fine, the senate just slandered them after death. However, being thousands of years ago, it's really hard to separate the truth from the slander.
>>30699400Caligula wasn't even the biggest That Guy in Roman history.That honor goes to Elagabalus.
>>30700291>Elagabalus>Decide to wiki the name for laughs.>Cassius Dio reported that Elagabalus would paint his eyes, epilate his hair and wear wigs before prostituting himself in taverns, brothelsWorst that guy ever.
Secundus Defecated Here
>>30700291when Emperor Elagabalus had friends over for dinner, he would wait until they had drunkenly passed out, put them all in one room, and release his tame lions and leopards into the room so that he could watch his friends panic when they woke upi mean in retrospect that's pretty funny but could you imagine
>>30700291Elagabalus was married as many as five times, lavished favors on male courtiers popularly thought to have been his lovers, employed a prototype of whoopee cushions at dinner parties, and was reported to have prostituted himself in the imperial palace. His behavior estranged the Praetorian Guard, the Senate, and the common people alike.>employed a prototype of whoopee cushions at dinner partiesOh wow.
>>30698305>Rome>better than ottomansI bet you think that Alexander the Great was the greatest conquerer known to man, too.
>Almost done downloading last episode of Spartacus>Mom says she doesn't want me watching that show>Says it's not accurate>Says Rome was good, and the slaves were violent animals>I tell her that words fall from mouth like shit from ass>I set upon her with a gladus I made from toilet paper rolls and dragon dildos>Dad runs upstairs to see what the fuss is about>Tell him his whore wife stands fucking Roman>He stands Roman as well>My two cats (named Ashur and Andy after the honored dead) set upon him like drunks to wine>We fight them off and hold the top of the stairsI have barricaded the upper floor, and liberated the neighbors wireless after they cut my connection but we run low on boxed wine and hotpockets. I stand with choice, go out the window and set upon the Roman shits who loiter in house like fleas on dog, or lead my cats in bold attemt to raid the nieghbors fridge (and fuck their daughters with my raging cock). Tell me brothers,what is the best course of action that leads to swift death of Roman scum, and quick return to watch episode 10 of based Spartacus?
>>30700375Okay that is actually pretty funny and something I would do once as a joke.>>30700443>Ottomans>disgusting Turks.>Comparing to Rome.Greatest conqueror in the world would probably be some Ottoman guy though. That types always been masters of invading places.
>>30700528Nah, greatest conquerer goes to either Temujin (Ghengis) Khan or his son, Ogedai Khan. They created the longest contiguous land empire ever in 25 years of conquering.
>>30698166Oh, I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you over my SUBLIMITYOr maybe it's just the Janissaries shooting some Armenians.
>>30700631What is it with humans and big hats? Whenever somebody is important, they always get a big hat, and the most important gets the biggest hat!
>>30700617Difference is the ottomens are still invading in some fashion. While no one gives a fuck about Mongolia.Though asking who is the best is kind of a dumb question because each one worked in differing times. The mongols started getting beat back by the Mamluks.
>>30698218>They ran out of Land-owning people who could be soldiersThats because the teutons killed all of them
>>30700631>tfw you will never wage glorious war against the Ottoman scum in the name of Christ
>>30700631Sir.Uh, Sir?I don't mean to alarm you, but your hat is an onion.
>>30700950>being shit-teir feudal>not member of glorious Islamic empiresIt's like you hate being smart, powerful, pious, and cultured.
>>30702056>glorious Islamic empires>Not being part of the glorious British empire.
>>30702118>Cry me a river
>>30702056The Ottomans and indeed, Arabs in general got the foundation of their "glorious advanced societies" from the corpses of the Eastern Roman Empire, Persian Empire and Byzantine Empire.Which... You know, were at the pinnacle of social, economic and military achievements in their day.
>>30700368Secundus, stop defecating here!
>>30700521I have no words of wisdom to impart, but go forth brave warrior, and fight for what you believe in.
Is it just me /tg/ or are the Irish just a race for people who want to play Mary Sues?>come from a tiny fucking obscure island.>show up everywhere, doing everything. Wherever you go, there's some special snowflake Irishman shoved into the mix for no reason.>Oh so persecuted, even though everyone loves them, and wants to be them at least once a year.>Supposed to be lousy at warfare for balance, but also supposed to be crazy brave and get to win against the British and the Vikings.>Ever since they added the Scottii there's been a million fucking variant races added, so you can play your stupid fucking special snowflake irishman.>haughty, too superior society to take place in world war which pulled in every other society.Fucking bullshit man.
This feels very /lit/ty. Are any /lit/erateurs in here?
>>30704161Technically, they tried to backstab the British during Dubbya Dubbya Dos. Then the Brits were all "Oh it's okay! We don't resent you!" afterwards.
>>30704161>Oh so persecuted, even though everyone loves them, and wants to be them at least once a year.That's only Americans, and that's a VERY recent thingMost places used to not hire Irish people
>>30697887So you gave him a minus F?F-, see me in my office.
>>30704190Improbable, people in this thread are actually having fun
>>30698845>>Played the fiddle while Rome burned, and people think he started the fire>>Wasn't even IN Rome at the time, was out of the City doing diplomatic shit>Obviously he had magical powersThere's also the fact that he conveniently took advantage of the newly demolished land to expand his palace. It wasn't a crowd-pleasing move.
>>30700368To the one defecating here. Beware of the curse. If you look down on this curse, may you have an angry Jupiter for an enemy.
I'm sorry OP but when it comes to Mary Sues in historical literature and such, you can't beat Diomedes.>Young attractive king>Leads third largest army to aid Agamemnon>Never commits hubris>Most valiant soldier>Most experienced commander despite his youth>One of the strongest warriors (beats the fuck out of Ajax, Hector, and Aeneas>Only one besides Odysseus to lead night missions>Weapon and armor was forged by Hephaestus>Athena is wet for him>Attacks and wounds Aphrodite>Attacks Apollo>Attacks and wounds Ares>Suffers no retribution from the Gods
>>30699459 Angel of YHWH here.Lucifer, I TOLD you to stay off /tg/! Gabriel's gonna get pissed if you miss his trumpet recital again. Let Michael play his war games unmolested.
>>30700950Tepescu, you need to calm down a little. You remove kebab any harder, there won't be any kebab left for us! Sincerely The Holy Roman Empire.
Just a High Int High Cha character.Any Level 8+ DnD character is more Sue than Caesar.
In reality from what his contemporaries said, no.In his own writing and what people who had a massive hard on for him say, you best believe your fucking ass.
>>30704329Hell for a while they were enslaved and not even considered white. Just look at those negroid features.
>>30697809At the time, "barbarians" weren't even a remote problem
>>30706051Genghis khan had blue eyes.
>>30697620>Good with womenMen too. His critics would refer to him as Queen rather than King when he was heard to be sharing the bed of another man.
>>30707414Having sex with men is okay so long as you are dominant. The problem with July was that he was submissive with other men. Pathetic.
>>30697620How can a man, who wasn't given any of this, and had to forge his own career and success, can be a mary fucking sue? It didn't appear out of thin air, y'know, he actually had to fucking work for what he got. So no, he ain't no mary sue, nor Gary Stue
>>30697806Got any evidence of that? You stupid funDIE, I bet you believe in all sorts of other stuff without evidence too like gOD.
>>30698423>imlying that gritain, america and canada weren't influenced by RomeISHGGDY
>>30697620>Genius military commanderWell, not genius. Caesar was competent and audacious and really, all the Legions need is a competent commanders and they've got a good chance of winning. >Great political careerHe was killed by a mob on the senate floor after having to deal with a civil war. Hell, some of those men were people he was fighting against in said civil war.>High Charisma...I will grant you that.>Greatly expanded the empireMostly, Caesar added what is now France to the Republic.>Egypt just happened to kill one of his opponents in a plot contrived way.More like Egypt killed Pompey in order to get Caesar's favor. Kinda backfired and the assassins ended up executed.>Died in a dramatic so special snowflake wayHe got mobbed by the enemies he refused to kill. As for the drama? Showmanship. It was his final performance and he knew it.
>>30704161>win against the British and VikingsAre you some idiotic American mick who thinks the Irish did something other than starve and live in a shit place noone else wants, or do you actually believe that Vikings eventually moving on to richer pastures and the Brits cutting the money-vacuum from their economy equate to winning?
>>30697620Emperors hired people to make everyone think they are sues.
I love Augustus.He's the best emperor.Could you imagine glorifying yourself to the point of divinity and doing it by profiling yourself as a humble traditional values kind of guy? I mean who does that? How is that even possible.You know his Augustus wasn't his real name, his real name was Octavius, Augustus means something like 'the majestic one'.He had a whole wall built listing all the great things he had done for the city. He completely controlled the artistic world.That guy was a PR genius.
>>30708840a political genius too. And bretty good ruler overall.
>>30707403>And red hair
>>30708894>AugustuHe wasn't that good militarily though, mostly he just delegated. He was a great civil leader.
>>30707450Same thing with Nero; the problem wasn't that he lay with his Egyptian slaveboys (let's be honest, who doesn't amirite) but that he was the bottom