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/tg/ - Traditional Games

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Evening /tg/.

I'm going to be playing a necromancer in a upcoming campaign, and I was wondering if anyone had any useful/fun tips (like specific items to carry around, amusing things to do with undead minions). There is going to be a lot of political intrigue in this campaign, with nobles back stabbing each other and such, if that helps any.
Cleric, Wizard, or Sorcerer?
System and class?
In the game im playing, my necromancer keeps all of his undead clean and clothed as to more easily fit in among people. Of course this doesnt work with some of them which he keeps in a pocket dimension bag.
Going to be Pathfinder. I was thinking of running Undead Lord Cleric archetype, if that helps at all. I more or less know what build I want to do, I more was just curious for fun things to do with minions.
What is your DMs stance on undead?
There is a mystery for the Juju oracle that as printed (and later errated by buthurt devs) that allows you to raise any mindless undead with a neutral alignment, and intelligent with your own, so lawful good undead are possible.
His stance is at least allowing me to run a necromancer. I'll have to find out what undead I can and cannot create, but I'm just going to assume standard undead. If you are asking about how he feels alignment wise, he's pretty gray on what each alignment means.
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You really have two routes. Small amount of DEADSTRONK goons, or large amount of general upkeep dudes who make your castle spiffy. Do the whole "Poor Yorrick" act in public with an animated skull, freak everyone around you out when it starts just screaming. Talk louder and louder, then yell "I CAN'T WORK WITH YOU LIKE THIS" and throw the skull into the crowd.

Also, store your champion skeleton in a suitcase: carry it with you everywhere. Don't forget to fortify bones if you go skeletons. Shadows and ethereal that make spawn are all about starting the end of times. Ah, if you have a place that you need to defend, consider burying piles of bones on either sides of the roads/in the fields/in town, and when an alarm is rang, have the skeletons pop up and rise to the defense of the town. Ghosts are awesome. Get a Ghost cohort, have it either possess people you don't like, or be a Telekinetic Warrior of destruction.
Don't forget to give out copious death curses, and invest in whatever passes for PF cleric illusion, so that the vile stench of your corruption doesn't get sensed before your plans have reached fruition.
>There is going to be a lot of political intrigue in this campaign, with nobles back stabbing each other and such

You know what paranoid conspiracy-minded nobles love more than anything? Bodyguards who see nothing and hear nothing of the intrigues around them and can never be forced to testify as to what they know. Bodyguards who can't be bribed, seduced, or poisoned. Bodyguards who are just there to prevent outside assassins or an inside double cross, as the nobles plot and scheme and deal.

Sure, it's a bit creepy at first to have a skeleton serving drinks and a couple zombie ogres (carefully preserved and perfumed so as not to offend the senses) guarding the doors. But they'll quickly see the advantages, and more importantly pay you handsomely for supplying all this to them. And who's to say you can't slip an intelligent undead into the mix to take notes for your own benefit?
Hmmm, selling undead to the nobles. That is definitely something I'll have to try.
Wheel skeletons, Reanimated corpses with souls of Political enemies inside them to sell for the secrets they hold, Deep rot (Search /tg/ Archives) and Necrocoin (Coin valued by the necromancy info they hold within in addition to their use in cults and underground black market services and as advertisement tools when stimulated by magic) will al assist you in your dark politics.

Also, ensure the subjugation of vampires to hide your own agendas.

Also use the fear of witch-hunting and necromancy to your advantage to spread mass hysteria like that one evil skeleton ventriloquist thing

And arrive to work on the corpses of the dead affected by plague, and spread your own.
Also maintain a good public standard, such as doing charitable things.

Seriously, As a necromancer I find the money just piles up over the time.

As for use of crypts and the like, repair them to ensure the dead have respect and nice abode for their resting places.
>Also, ensure the subjugation of vampires to hide your own agendas.

Want to elaborate on this?I understand how vampires are undead and ask, but I fail to see how they can help hide schemes, unless you mean they help with body disposal.
This. I raised half a local graveyard once to save a village from raiders. Once the villagers realized their own forefathers had saved them, they were convinced I had been sent by their gods to save their village. Good times with friends.

It was a pain in the ass to rebury everyone neatly, though.
Simple, they are easy to command, act as scapegoats for your actions, and are ideal experimental resources.

And they are the shittiest of all undead and everyone hates them.

I mean, if you cause a shitload of problems for a community, with undead it takes the ma while to figure out a necromancer is behind it, but there are noticeable patterns, such as missing corpses only.

Vampires draw attention through common Conventions (Dracula tier shit) and leave fresh bodies behind.

Example, a town is catching on to you, so you use a vampire, catch it kill it, take credit and leave, using your cover name to hide your necromantic actions.

If you need an excuse for tomb and crypt hunting, donate money to the restoration of said crypts and no one is the wiser.

Need Kids for spell components?

Kill them all and make it look like changelings.

Murder mystery?

Reanimate the victim to discover the perpetrator and have the zombie dispatch it's own brand of justice, whilst pillaging the culprits belongings, or incriminate them as the murderers using the corpse, saying it rose on it's own.
>An ancient evil has risen

Make deal with ancient evil to have it subtly perform it's wishes as you reap the benefit's from "Slaying" it.

I.E Suck a cities defenses dry and the like from rewards and further quests made as the ancient evil slowly works it's way into the governing hierarchy to rot it inside out as you provide the distractions from the main issues.

Additionally, betray ancient evil later for even more power if you want to get greedy.

I mean, when I dealt with Ancient Evils I'd always try to shove them in something, amulets, weapons, you name it, mother of fuck, reducing the high and mighty to accessories is fun.

I turned a Dominator demon into a chair once.

When I died, I sat on him for all eternity.
>There is going to be a lot of political intrigue in this campaign, with nobles back stabbing each other and such, if that helps any.

Go tell-tale heart on the opposition. They had a political rival killed. Make the corpse haunt them, but dissapear when anyone goes to check it out. Make the heart beats louder and louder until theres a corpse whispering from under his bed, "You killed me....you killed me.....YOU...KILLED...ME".

Then offer to solve his problem for "favors".
This has given me a lot of ideas to ponder. Thank you, kind sir.
Oh right, And there's one game where Fucking the dead gives you superpowers and makes you look more like the dead themselves.

If you undetake this, go overtime on the good deeds other people support you and say you burden a curse you had from braving a dungeon to save or something nice that just so happened to involve undead
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Additionally, you may want to look into methods of entering the Realms where Necromatic intelligences reside, like that one quest in NWN with the forest Spirit but instead of a poisoned deer a dickhole flying sky skeleton that picks and spawns undead in a area of negative energy and shits on everything below it.

At least, that's How I see Necromantic intelligences.

Asshole sky skeletons that can fuck you up hard.

Infact, discovering their defeat will definitely get you good graces, because it means Paladins and clerics and the like can finally clean up after Nero-messes via placing holy items at the source of the intelligence then proceeding to smac kthe shit out of their physical forms (If they don't get ass-pounded by a mere fraction of the negative energy realm)

Hell, imagine what kind of epic gear and items you can craft with the trapped souls of Necromatic intelligences.

Is this your theme?
This goes to prove how little I actually know what one can do with undead and how many different undead types are out there.

I've always wondered if exploding undead were possible, as that would be s great assassination device.

>get exploding runes scrawled over skull
>have undead assassin grapple target
>"common, fucker, read the runes, read 'em"

Could be a fairly clean assassination method. Not much evidence left.
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Alternatively you could have a rainbow skeletons.

As in skeletons you either enchant to reflect the color spectrum equipped with color spray and some sort of disease/contagion spell that gives them epilepsy.

You could make Ribbers from adventure quest, as Skeleton Ribsnake that grapple opponents in their ribcage, clamp down and drain them of blood, or large constructs which have Acidic bellies which shit out their victims as skeletons or a spell that turns an opponent into a random undead creature whom it's allies attack who's dialogue is warped to generic evil undead quotes.

Imagine turning someone into the form of a vampire and then everyone thinks he's some OP Vampire Progenitor because he walks out in the Sun trying to tell people he's not a vampire but all they can hear is DARKNESS TAKE YOU AND I WILL DRAIN YOU DRY and everyone tries to kill him but they fail because he's too not undead for that, the only way to tell they're not what they've been turned into is to cast a translation spell or have a magical item on with discerns this.

You could also make flying skeleton head clusters that shoot fire and explode on death, that may or maynot have snakes inhibiting them like hermit crabs

Or better yet, A Demi lich that is a Pelvis bone, because if you give Pelvis bone gem eyes and gold sheen, feathers and dream cathers it'd look akuaku/ukauka as fuck

And now, for a shitty shoop of what that would look like.

I don't know if anyone has said this yet but since there is going to be intrigue just remember, "dead men tell no tales" does not work with Necromancers.
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>Escort Mission
>Fighter proclaims
>"Remember, we need him alive, dead men tell no tales."
>Necromancer Butts in
>"I reanimated the asshat who said that once."
I'm assuming you mean in Pathfinder or the like? Always have the Command Undead spell prepared, or even get a wand of it. It's often overlooked by novice GMs, or ones who don't have a lot of experience with undead, that anything given certain undead templates is automatically dominated by that spell, regardless of level. So theoretically, as a level 1 wizard with Command Undead, you could instantly and completely dominate a level 20 zombie dragon. I destroyed a guy's entire "DnD with zomblies!" campaign with that spell. After two weeks, there was never another zombie in the zombie apocalypse.
I believe command undead in Pathfinder ids a feat that clerics use their channel energy uses for, but I could be wrong. Been a while since I've looked at it.
I think I just found my next familiar.
Can you do fossils in PF? Because if you can, you'd better get all Harry Dresden on somebody.
Everyone has made some great suggestions for being balls to the wall evil.

I've played and undead lord. skelebro was fun had him as a skeletal champion we were BFFs. That the domain restriction does keep you from getting some of the better spells.
My tips
>Wizards get some nasty spells but if you want a horde go Cleric/Oracle. Its easier for them to get wizard spells than the other way around. (domains/revelations). Neutral clerics can cast evil spells and use negative energy.
>your a cleric/Oracle? great you may not have the spells but you can wreck face in close combat. Easily. Second Animate dead requires touching the dead. that means that bug bear you just killed is mystic nosepoke from being your personal murder machine.
>Mindless undead don't get saves from control. Intelligent do. and their spawn don't even have to try. That means if your controlled shadow goes to town on a roomful of villagers. That's a room full of Shadows that are not listening to you.
Sounds like your setting would benefit from you handling undead on a much smaller scale, as in only a handful of corpses, but each one is extensively enhanced in different ways to make them stronger on their own, unless you want to stand out as the weaver of the undead
I thought that as long as you controlled the Shadow that created them, you controlled their spawn by default.
>Charisma is not a dumpstat in an intreague campaign. and Clerics can be just as good as a bard at diplomacy.
>Intelligent Undead can be convinced to work for you. So diplomacy is doing double duty for you. Someone mentioned having a murder victim kill their murderer? That is a good excuse to create a murder ghost to work with you. Even better, if you play your cards right its gonna make you look more lawful than evil. "Do the dead not deserve vengeance?" is a pretty decent excuse. Its not gonna let a paladin work with you but it might keep you from being shanked.
>Animate dead has a lesser version available at level 2. Simple skeletons make great meat shields and flank buddies. I used a trio with tower shields as moving cover.
>people don't want you to raise their grand dad? how about criminals, monsters, or the kingdoms enemies. People care a lot less if your skeletons are wearing signs that say "in life I took in death I give"
Not in Pathfinder and a change from 3.5. Spawn don't even have to make a save. In addition intelligent undead like shadows get to make a save every 24 hours. Not bad for a quick dungeon delve but if your talking month long intrigue plans that's a month of saves.

>Intelligent undead reminder. Shadows might play your game but MANY intelligent undead only want to see the world burn. And more importantly keep grudges. That vampire you forced to do your bidding last week might think you should fuck off and die.
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just gonna post some necromancer stuff if you don't mind
I'm trying to find just a fun way to play a necromancer, not necessarily the most efficient way. While having powerful, great spells is fun and all, there's already two guys in the group who just LOVE to be the best at whatever they do, be it battle field control or raw damage (talking like total powergame).

As a result, I want to do something more entertaining, and having a personal body guard (skeleton champion) sounds like a lot better times to be had than "hur dur I win encounter in one move"
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Some great advice here thanks.

>people don't want you to raise their grand dad? how about criminals, monsters, or the kingdoms enemies.

I was thinking about running a "clean up service." One noble fucks up a secret agency of another noble, I offer to dispose the bodies. Was thinking that would be a safer way to get resources than to raid graveyards.
It's a wizard spell, you're thinking of rebuke undead.
Found what I was thinking about.

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But wait there is more.
>Cant trust the living dead but cant live without them?
>That's what friends are for. Ricky the Rogue got caught with the Barons Daughter and had a short drop with a sudden stop? Bam now hes a ghost. All aboard the sneak attack train.
As a cleric you can provide more buffs than anyone. Plus you come with free flanking for your friends.
Our campaing became Pirate time, i found a whole spell that was how about a free skeleton crew. For Fun I suggest bigger HD undead Quality over quanity. My turns without care my turns could last longer than the GM+Entire Party. Thats not Fun.
Perfect. Want to go the extra mile? Speak with dead doesn't work on undead. But with a good bard, you can make those undead say anything about their former boss you want publicly. Just needs a little bit of ventriloquism.

>Necromancy has some great debuffs. And clerics has some great buffs. Go nuts. Also most negative energy spells work in reverse. Channeling negative energy will make your buds heal but also hurt your enemies (and your friends)
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enervation A basic but nasty spell, but it can also heal your dudes. Find Spells that can work twice.
>There is a lot of undead fun to be had. But do make sure know the special rules back to front. If your creating undead on the fly it will help sped things up.
Also Skeleton Summoner is a trap don't take it
You mention quality over quantity, and something I'm looking into right now is various undead, and undead templates. Are undead variants and undead templates the same thing, or are they different beast. (i.e., a burning skeleton). I find the RAW very unclear especially when it comes to spells such as Animate Dead. In other words, are templates fast cheap ways to create quality undead?
>Also use the fear of witch-hunting and necromancy to your advantage to spread mass hysteria like that one evil skeleton ventriloquist thing
Sounds like a great way to get hoisted by your own petard.
Never forget that you can reanimate more then just humans.

A common tactic I used was reanimating common animals such as horses. They never tire so they are great for messengers needing to deliver mail or some such.

Also remember that the undead retain their other forms of movement except for Skeletons who can't fly and that Zombies with fly drop to Clumsy which isn't all that bad.

The above is useful for using animals that can Swim to clear sewers and patrol beaches. Using creatures with Burrow speeds to burrow which has all sorts of uses to miners. Also Climb speeds which my DM forgot about when suddenly I had Messenger Spiders climbing alongside buildings to get over traffic.

Worried about maintaining your undead? A little alchemy can go along way to preserving your dead and so can metal working if your DM agrees. I covered my Skeletons in coatings of metal to keep them safe. Fliers? A little tin. Burrowers? Some iron claws and tar coating helped keep them good. Zombies? More tar. (Tar because he wouldn't let me have rubber.)

And once you have a nice coating on your undead? That's where the artistry comes in. Down time and no more undead to raise? I started stylizing my undead. No longer were they shambling things of bone and rot. Now they were elegant pieces of work made of porcelain, painted clay, etched metal, and other ornate coverings.

By far the cheapest would be painted clay. It breaks off? You slap some more on. You go metal and it scratches? Buff it out. They aren't made for combat. These were a gentlemens undead.
>They aren't made for combat. These were a gentlemens undead.

>Not designing legions of undead for conquest

Decadent fool, squandering your power!
This is probably a better place to ask than any:

Which is all around better for low level undead, skeletons or zombies? Or do they each have things they are better at?

Zombies are basically perma-staggered, but I believe they keep more abilities from life.

Skeletons for infantry troops and all around usefullness.

But are weaker to begin smashed to shit.
So zombies for tanking? What about skeletons with armor? Or can zombies use armor as well?
Carry lots of skulls.

Animate them to bite your target, get facts about the strengh of a human bite.

Throw skulls at enemies to bite them like Unholy Pikmin.
>so you killed fellow human. Your neighbor, its ok he was sleeping with your other neighbors wife. Now you want to make him into a Skellington.
So you cast Animate Dead http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-dead
> This requires you to be a 5th level cleric. The spell allows you to control 20hit dice (4hdxCaster level) of undead. (this is separate from command undead the two stack for max undead numbers)
>He was a level 3 rogue but that sucks for him
he loses those Hit dice. all he gets are his racial (human) hitdice
>so he is a base 1 HD
>But you really want to say fuck you. so you make him a burning skellington. This doubles the HD so he is a 1hd skellington that counts as two HD. Now Kill your neighbors and make 9 more burning skellintons

Lots of Skellington vs Zombies.questions.
Skeletons are simple. at 3rd level with lesser animate dead your looking at creating 12 simple skeletons from Humanoid corpses. or 12 zombies.
Zombies dont get weapons but they get a nasty slam but, skeletons. Zombies get an ability called staggered though. this means they can ONLY ATTACK OR MOVE. Zombies may still fly while skeletons cant but at low levels thats poor action economy.
>Level 5 you get real Animate dead. This means you can make Fast Zombies. Goodbye staggered. Zombies work great with monsters with lots of Hit dice and natural attacks. Zombies keep those. and gain extra Str and Hit Dice
So zombies are great for animals/monsters, creatures with natural attacks, and skeletons are great for humanoid creatures?
One more quick reminder.
Skeletal champions are sweet. They also require
Create Undead instead of animate dead
A good way to have a sack of instant tiny idea. In addition there is a beheaded version of undead that can fly and shoot fire from their mouths
Natural or special attacks for zombies. Hand duties for skeletons.
>also on the the debate weapons can be come or go.if you have so much money that you can give magic weapons to your basic undead you should be using that money better.
>that said archers are annoying and imagine a giant skeleton with a giant bow. That's a walking siege weapon with little upkeep. Basic humanoid skeletons with Bows can be devastating as well. Remember at level 3 your looking at 12d10 damage from 12 skeletons with crossbows. For an investment of 300 gp (and 12 bodies but that's simple.)
I thought create undread cost a bunch of gp in material components...
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>Playing NWN
>Finally figure how to into Playing as creatures
>Do this
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The spell "Create Undead" is for making advanced undeads - wights, ghouls, skeleton champions, etc. The cost is 50gp/HD which isn't that bad considering it's a level 6 spell, so the player should have some gold to afford a few powerful undead baddies.

As for basic skeletons and zombies using "Animate Dead," it's only 25gp/HD, and since most skeletons have 1 HD, it's pretty easy to mass create a bunch of skeletons for not much.

Look at it this way, if your minions are doing the work for you, you really don't need to invest in a fancysmancy magic weapon as you wont be dealing damage. At least you probably wont if you are going with the quantity approach.
I, for one, would like to hear more about Drew the Lich's adventures in NWN.
Well, when my Screenshot folder piles up, we'll have more amusing stuff.

I'll hand out the .bic file later.

As for the spells missing, you need to purchase them again to learn, an unfortunate side effect of the tools that were used to pull it off.
Figured this was a safe thread to post in.

I'm starting a game tomorrow where I'm a necromancy specialized Wizard. Any advice other than what OP has gotten? Starting at level 3, so no animate dead yet.
Go Pale Master of course.
Damn it, knew there was something I was forgetting. It's Pathfinder.
And all in all that's a excellent investment compared to a masterwork weapon or +1 weapon. And at Higher levels and HD the investment pays off even better.
Wizard Necromancer is a lot different style wise. Your going to be behind on the create spells and not have access to the harm spells. Wizards get some great debuffs though. My suggestion is play a wizard. at level five when you get access to animate dead lesser the pay off is a lot less, and even at seven with animate dead.
Personally play a wizard with some side undead. your spells are your strong point not your creations
Look up the spell 'blood money'
It fits so well with the necromancer theme.

I'd say that overall wizard necro >>>>>>>>>> cleric necro.

Why? Command Undead.

Combining Command + Animate Dead, you can animate ALL the big monsters in the whole campaign.
So as opposed to creating a lot of undead, I'll create some undead and throw debuffs around.
That is a spell slot for a cleric ability. Admittedly better with intelligent creatures for length of time but the ambiguous wording about harmful orders could be a double bladed sword.
Also animate dead is a 6th level spell that doesn't help the man. A Wizard with 6th level spells is just gilding the lily by that combo. Clerics just give you more undead sooner.
Yea most of the thread works pretty well for you. But you get haste and many many other wonderful spells. Undead hordes will come to you in time you just worry about getting away with them. Anything else about your wizard? Banned schools?
Banned Enchantment and Divination I think.

Not much I wanted out of them.

At least I might be able to convince my DM to throw some undead at me so I can Command Undead them.
>amusing things to do with undead minions

>On the way out to a dungeon outside a village, for instance,
>Raid the local cemetery for a few nights,
>raising a few "kamikaze" hirelings.
>have your party wait patiently while completing these preparations.
>"Zombie, open that door!
>Zombie, open that chest! Zombie, walk into that room!
>Zombie, walk across that chequered and suspicious floor!"
that is certainly more effective than using summon monster 1 repeatedly
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>banning divination

Are you sucking your DMs dick, Anon?
Animate Dead is a level 4 spell for wizards.

And this isn't a case of "quantity has a quality all of its own," this is a case of animating the biggest AND the baddest monsters. You can certainly maintain, what, 50+ commanded undead with the spell by the time you cast animate dead -- there's almost no chance that there'll be badass monsters you won't be able to control.

>That is a spell slot for a cleric ability

The cleric ability doesn't come anywhere near close.

Cleric ability: You can control 2 undead of half your level. Whoopty doo! If you game it, you might be able to add +6 levels.

The only use for the cleric version is obscure shit like alliping tarrasques.

Wizard necro > cleric necro.
Use skeletons as engines in necrosteampunkish machines made of animated bones and steel. Like skeleton powered trains and such. Be practical necromancer. Treat animated dead as robots or automatons, make them dig trenches, build walls and roads. School of modern necromancy!
>Wizards are better than clerics at being necromancers
>Because of awesome spell that is wiz/sorc 4
the spell in question
is wiz/sorc 4, but also cleric 3.
This means clerics get this awesome 2 levels earlier.
Furthermore, cleric's command undead feat STACKS with the HD control this spell grants, wizards do not have such stacking.

Clerics are still the superior necromancers.

>This means clerics get this awesome 2 levels earlier.

Okay, so they can pull it off a little sooner. If you think you will spend a significant amount of time in the level 5-6 zone in which it'd matter, then yeah, the necrocleric is better (for that time period).

>Furthermore, cleric's command undead feat STACKS with the HD control this spell grants, wizards do not have such stacking.

And wizards don't care about the HD control. At all. The HD cap for wizards is "all of them."
The perpetual energy that is a skeleton is highly underrated. And if you are concerned that the spell making them are Evil, just do so much Good with them that the cosmos itself is forced to re-evaluate undeath.
>And wizards don't care about the HD control. At all. The HD cap for wizards is "all of them."
no it isn't
The HD cap is
Wizard: 4x HD
Cleric: 5x HD
Random question, there's no Pathfiner thread up.

I'm playing a Witch in Pathfinder, but me and my DM can't seen to find out how my Familiar is controlled. Unlike with a Ranger, where it details how to train a pet, a Familiar has very few rules on how it is controlled. I feel I should control it, but then what is the point of being able to verbally communicate with it at level 5? But on the other hand, I don't feel that the DM should control it like an NPC, coz then I'd fucking hate it like all DMNPCs.

Can someone enlighten me on this? I assume it's a very similar system in 3.5e.
>no it isn't

Again, Command Undead: level 2 wizard spell.

As long as they don't waste their time with orc/peasant zombies, the cap essentially doesn't exist for them.
You control it. It's intelligent so training is unnecessary. Most of the time it just hangs out and gives you the Alertness feat.
ok, found the spell command undead

It lets you gain control of a single undead for 1day/CL with no HD requirements. With limitations on what you can do to them.

There is a higher level spell that removes said limitations but is wiz/sorc 7. called
it also has min/CL duration instead of day/CL.

The cleric's command undead feat
Replicates the wiz/sorc spell level 7 control undead, only indefinitely so.

This means clerics have a significant advantage in controlling intelligent undead. but a really dedicated really high level wizard/sorc can manage to control more mindless undead.
The feat lets you control (cleric level) HD. Which isn't much. The only use of it is to hope the DM sends allips your way. It also lets them roll to break free EVERY day, making it not just small scale, but unreliable as hell.

It is not what anyone should call a "significant" advantage.

And they don't have to be really dedicated, or high level, to have the edgy -- again, you probably shouldn't be bothering with animating weak puny medium sized undead, just animate and/or command every huge and beefy undead.
Oh, and I say this as having extensively played both arcane and divine necromancers. Arcane is just crazy better... for most purposes. Divine is better for the first six levels though, absolutely.
>Arcane is just crazy better
you have yet to explain how.
That highly limited spell that lets you command 1 extra skeleton per casting for a limited time before having to be recast?
the 4x HD in skeletons from that other spell is more than enough skeletons. The difference is in controlling sentient ones.

>It also lets them roll to break free EVERY day
The wiz/sorc 7 spell it replicates let them roll a save too and lasts only a few minutes. So if you want to keep them controlled indefinitely, at level 20, it will take you 72 castings a day per undead and give them 72 different saves (and SR checks) to resist it.

>That highly limited spell that lets you command 1 extra skeleton per casting for a limited time before having to be recast?

It lasts a week.

You can easily keep a dozen or more skeletal giants, hydras, dragons, etc. animated and controlled, far in excess of what the cleric could ever manage.

And no one cares about Control Undead (the level 7 spell), Command Undead is where its at.
oh, I was thinking 1HD human skeletons.
I didn't realize you can use it to keep a stable of giant / dragon / etc skeletons.
ok, that is impressive.
>Go to bed expecting this thread to autoprune
>wake up and refresh thread and see /tg/ discussing the finer points of undead control with various classes, clarifying some poorly written rules.

Never change, /tg/.
out of curiosity.
What happens if someone throws an AoE dispell on his little army of super skellingtons?
Its Intelligent, enough that the rat on your shoulder could tell you your being flanked. This means it can take orders as a cohort. Flank this, bring me x, Follow Steve don't be seen and tell me if he does something bizarre.
The point of verbal communication is the above order for following Steve. In addition you could send him with your rogue to keep you aware of whats happening. All in All the familiar allows you a second set of telepathic eyes that you can cast through. That's like a chain of 3-4 spells and this is free. Also gets skill points and your knowledge. And its own perception check.
I still dont feel like the wizard is hands down the best ever. But after examination I will say you are right Command Undead is an extremely powerful spell with few limitations. 10/10 would take a wand of. I still like the divine support better.
>May I suggest one crazy build. Ancient Lorekeeper Archetype Bones Mystery Oracle. Take Haunted because fuck it. A little slow on the build up but no breaks once it hits its stride.
Depends and I'm not entirely sure. For the Animate dead and Command undead spells. I expect a loss of control which means those skellingtons can do what they want (kill fleshbodies). For the Command Undead ability,nothing because its not a spell.

Hey kids want a good feat Ole' Uncle Necro Suggests http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/undead-master. Do you like more Skellingtons. Longer skellingtons?
You'd roll a contested test for each. Any you pass would become uncontrolled; what an uncontrolled skeleton does is never mentioned, though it may be different in Pathfinder.
Last time necromancers were mentioned someone posted this


I'd recommend it, it's got some pretty cool shit in it.
You want to build your own personal necronomicon spellbook that follows you around like a familiar?
Can be done.

You want to build a giant set of wings out of stretched human skin that holds onto you with stitched on forearms?
Totally covered.

It's got some ridiculously cool feats in it as well; and a few of the spells are fantastic. There's even one that covers gaining permanent control over intelligent undead (at 9th level mind you)
You control it, although some DMs insist on controlling it instead, its a part of your character.
It is also sapient.
Neat but not Paizo, I've had some GMs give 3rd Party stuff the stink eye. I'll look into but just a warning to other necrobros
Roll on the confusion chart?
Also Intelligent Undead if their control is lost will do whatever they want.

>Necromancers are fun. Always winning is not fun for everyone. So I implore you ask your DM before you do this. Remember every enemy they throw at you could easily become your ally. That might taste bad to some.
>I mentioned yesterday that Charisma is not your dump stat; well it still isnt. Leadership is always broken-good. Think about it. Necromancer cohorts or followers. Undead cohorts like vampires or death knights.
>Just because you created an intelligent undead doesn't mean you have to control it magically. Diplomacy is always an option. You might be evil but that doesn't mean you need to be an asshole to your minions.
>when you play with fire you make sure you cant get burned right? Resistance to fire and the like? Well be prepared to deal with negative energy. Level loss is a bitch, don't let it happen to you. There are some nice abilities that let you use negative energy when you feel like it. Not bad to be healed by both.

This may also be general PF questions/build advice?
What sort of necromancer?
Ooga Booga Voodoo spirits, primitive witch doctor?
A priestly necromancer, similar to the heirophants of Egypt?
An omnicidally against the living one?
A practical necromancer who uses his minions for contract labor?
An anti-undead exorcist necromancer?
I've always wondered if classics who channel negative energy could still use the cure spells. The don't have the good aligned descriptor, so I would assume yes, but then again you are using positive energy.
>I mentioned yesterday that Charisma is not your dump stat; well it still isnt. Leadership is always broken-good. Think about it. Necromancer cohorts or followers. Undead cohorts like vampires or death knights.
combine the two, undead necromancer cohorts
You also forgot the core 3e D&D necromancer wizard.
A wizard who channels negative energy to slay his enemies and can't control or summon undead for shit
Not spontaneously.
So an evil cleric could prepare Cure Light Wounds and then spontaneously turn it into Inflict Light Wounds. A good cleric could do the opposite.

From PFSRD "A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good, and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions."
>Cure and Inflict spells do not have alignment descriptors.
>Even evil cabals get boo-boos

>All in all another reason to be neutral without a god. (pick your own domains, cast any spell on the list)
>Remember these rules, it allows the cleric to help his living allies. As long as you can make the good times roll with a wand of cure light wounds, Your party has less reason to shank you for "crimes against the natural order" or something.

>excellent +10 points to Ravenclaw. I like your gumption.
I thought I read somewhere that that Inflict Spells had the evil descriptor.

But yeah that's good to know that negative channeling clerics can cast Cure spells if they are prepared. I was more looking into just making wands/scrolls of the stuff so I can have those spell slots open for buffs for my skellies.
Nope http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/inflict-light-wounds
See next to necromancy thats where the evil tag would go like here in animate dead http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-dead
I checked 3.5 and not there either.
>Wands are always the way to go. Also you shouldn't have to pay the whole thing. a wand is 750gp for 50 charges. Encourage the party to chip in for their own well being. (Good or Evil)
>I love the inflict spells thematicly but I find them lack luster until the mass spells or Harm. A good weapon and smart buffing will make your turns feel way more productive than wasting a spell slot missing an inflict attack for the third time in a row.
Don't perpetuate the edgy evil stereotype.
Necromancy can be the most goodguy school of all.
But, anon, the only ones who understand me are the undead.

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