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>Inb4 the same exact pattern of argument over the DND alignment system that occurs in every thread.

So I can understand the purpose of the DND alignment system for the purpose of Angelic/Demonic outsiders and spells like "Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos"

However... Doesn't that make the True Neutral alignment the most objectively overpowered alignment in the game?
Simply being a bland and boring little shit, with no real dedication or commitment to a way of life or specific personality is the most powerful?

That's terrible.
Borderline HERESY.

Please tell me that there is some means to Cleave and Smite the living fuck out of the cursed apathy that is the Neutral alignments, with doubled effect on True Switzerlandism, in one of the Gorillion splat-books out there.

Meeting True Neutral, and Chaotic Dumbass (neutral) BBEG's in this probably BBNG is getting rather fucking tiring as a Paladin.

After this problem is solved feel free to continue whatever shit-fit you're going to throw over the DND alignment system... I don't care.
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>>29360104
There are numerous effects you can use that make people temporarily count as a different alignment, but for the life of me I don't know remember what they are.
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>>29360104
>I don't care

BY THE GODS!
YOU'RE ALREADY INFECTED!
IT SPREADS!
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>>29360104
>Inb4 Have you tried not playing DND
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>>29360104
There is a reason the Neutral Planet is earth's greatest enemy you know. Their callous disregard for having strong feelings grants them a power too great and terrible for any one nation to wield.
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>>29360209
Some people are just born with a heart full of neutrality.
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>>29360104

The BBNG's plot involves getting some fries and not inconveniencing anyone too much.
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It doesn't even work for the angels/demons/what have you.

There are good demons, there are evil angels. Alignment is just a totally irrelevant clusterfuck of stupidity.
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>>29360563
You know it.

How would you stop them if they were to incidentally fuck up something.

Like apathetically destroying earth to make way for a space highway?

They're borderline immune to half of the paladin's abilities.
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>>29360743

Would a Good Demon would be affected by Smite Evil, since it would retain the (Evil) subtype?
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>>29360768
Yes.
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>>29360563
I like the idea of something like a semi-omnipotent race that wields great power but they absolutely can't be bothered to make use of it. They live immortal lives and just don't care, merrily going along their little routines in their depressive, apathetic society where even the darkest disasters are met with a shrug.
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>>29360743
>Good demons
>Evil Angels

Oh boy here we go.jpg

I mean, just because demons have the Outsider(Evil) classification, and that the template says "Alignment: Any Evil" doesn't mean that they're all evil... Oh wait yes it does.
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>>29360764
Were the Vogons lawful evil or bureaucratic neutral?

Also, bureaucratic needs to be an alignment, separate from lawful.
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>>29360104

>Doesn't that make the True Neutral alignment the most objectively overpowered alignment in the game?

Maybe objectively it makes it the least susceptible to spells and effects related to alignment, but that hardly makes it overpowered. There are lots of spells, feats, and classes that are powerful and require some non-neutral alignment.
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>>29360768
Yes.
>>29360796
You there. None of that. Get thee away with thine bullshit.
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Rolled 76

>>29360104
True neutral is the best alignment. It is the aliment of people who are neither gods nor devils, but just everyday sinners doing the best they can to get by. It's the idealistic warriors who realize that sometimes one needs to get one's hands dirty to get the job done. It's those who fight for their families or their friends, fuck the 'greater good.' It's real people with real motivations that have the capacity for both good and evil.
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>>29360827
Did... did you just describe CN?
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>>29360792

Tom Bombadil
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>>29360872
No, that involves a distaste for law. Law is often the very best tool for a wide variety of jobs. Just not all of them, and not always.
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>>29360802
A bureaucracy kinda drains one's souls essence away naturally.

So realistically they lie outside the alignment spectrum as their souls dwindled out and left husks filled with paperwork.

So we can only assume TN is the closest descriptor possible.
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Rolled 51

>>29360872
Nah, Chaotic Neutral breaks tradition and law even when going along with them would be easier. True neutral is sometimes law-abiding and sometimes a criminal, depending on who they are and what they're trying to do. It's the 'not black and white, but shades of gray' alignment, which is why it's the best.
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>>29360676
I am now making a campaign based around a BBNG
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>>29361100
Also, I apparently need reminders to clear my damn email field.
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>>29360743
This is some fucking grade A heresy right here. There are no good demons, and there are no evil angels.
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>>29361122
>Participating in quests
It's like you want /tg/ to die or something
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>>29361171
That was from a CYOA, actually.
>inb4 "that's not any better"
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>>29361193
I didn't even need to say it.
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>>29361145
>>29360743

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a
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>>29360802
...But Bureaucracy is the true opposite to Chaos!
Both drive you insane, but the difference is the presence or absence of Order!
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>>29361227
>one faggot decides to make a good succubus
>GUIZE ITZ CANNAN!11
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>>29361239
You can fill out the correct paperwork to commit acts of chaos.
Just be sure you submit them in triplicate to the local Alignment-assesment office three business days in advance.
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>>29361227
Anon, you know Mary Sues don't count.

They break the rules on purpose.

They're like Setting munchkins. They abuse the setting rather then the rules.
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>>29361257
>"There are no good demons evah!"
>Evidence to the contrary
>"That doesn't count because I called the person who made it a faggot"

Yeah, you sure showed me.
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>>29360104
I read the entire thing in his voice.

It was glorious.
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>>29361292
It doesn't count because it's a fucking barely-official blog where some guy decided to make one, and because even fucking WOTC themselves can't tell them what my setting is like.
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>>29361257
>arguing canonicity

That's like five Hitlers, anon. You're on thin ice.

Always Evil/Good/Whatever is boring, anyway.
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>>29361281
Is it buzzword bingo time already? Quick, someone use "objectively". That's my favorite.
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>>29360104
I find your words to be non-objectionable and mundane.

Neutrality is okay.
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>>29361313
>Barley official
>On the offical site
>Some guy made one
>And it was voted for by others
>what your setting is like
>Implying your setting is correct

Saying it doesn't count because you don't want it to count doesn't count
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>>29360104

>However... Doesn't that make the True Neutral alignment the most objectively overpowered alignment in the game?

True neutral outsiders are affected by Protection from Law, Chaos, Good, AND Evil.

True neutral characters are hit for full normal effect by Holy Word, Blasphemy, Word of Chaos, and Dictum.

He who stands in the middle of the road gets hit by both sides.
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>>29360792
Aren't these the Mordons?

>>29360104
There are powerful Neutral outsiders, aren't there? Can't you just use Smite Creature Type?
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>>29361316
That was my point. The guy was pointing out a WOTC blog and saying "GUIZE HERE'S A CANON GOOD SUCCUBUS!" and I was pointing out that there isn't a fucking canon, and that he's stupid.
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>>29361393
Absolutely nothing counts unless I say it counts. D&D has no canon.
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>>29361404
One other good succubus involved a Helm of Opposite Alignment.
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>>29361239
No it's not. It sits at the nadir of the Law-Chaos Axis.

>Law
>Complete and file forms in triplicate indicating you intend to file forms

>Chaos
>Add the filed forms into a massive archive of non-sequentially stored forms, so that searches for said forms will be as inefficient as possible

Just look at the Central Bureacracy.
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>>29360796
Just what the heck do you think the (Evil) thing means, and why do you suppose there are Outsider (no subtype), Alignment: Evil (like tieflings and half fiends) critters, and Outsider [Evil], Alignment: Evil critters?

A good demon is fully affected by anti-good and anti-evil effects. A lawful good demon would be the polar opposite of a neutral char, hit by any alignment effect (and, interestingly, able to qualify as a member of any alignment).
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>>29361316
That's only about 56 femtohitlers and you know it.
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>>29361421
Oh, I apologize. I didn't realize I was speaking to the Omni-DM, in charge of all settings and lore.

Seriously, if you want to say your setting has only evil demons, go right ahead, but the fact that wizards posted a good demon means you're wrong for telling other people that there are no good demons in d&d ever.
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>>29361404
Falls-From-Grace

I rest my case.
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>>29361145
>there are no evil angels

The guys who invaded and usurped the Ancient Baatorians would like to have a word with you.

Also it says in the core monster manual what happens when you have a good demon.
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>>29361396
Are you sure? Neutral clerics can both rebuke and destroy Undead, can't they?

Shouldn't they be able to hit both sides?
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>>29361490
Neutral clerics have to choose one and stick with it normally, defeating the purpose of being neutral.
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>>29361452
I'm not telling them there are no good demons in D&D ever, I'm telling them that that's retarded.

Angels and demons are supernatural beings with no free will. They are what they are, and they can't fucking alter their nature. If your setting has demons as just "regular folk with spikes who live in hell and are usually not very nice," then fuck you and your shit setting too.
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>>29361509
That's dumb.
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Neutrality is great. Master Yoda fucking proves that. Grey Knights assemble.
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>>29361539
> Angels and demons are supernatural beings with no free will.
> no free will
Citation from MM? (as we speak about dnd)
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>>29361490

>Are you sure? Neutral clerics can both rebuke and destroy Undead, can't they?

>Shouldn't they be able to hit both sides?

Yes I'm sure, and you're sorta correct. They have to choose whether to channel positive OR negative energy and normally can't change it. This choice can't be antithetical to their god.

iirc someone like Wee Jas ONLY lets you channel negative and someone like St. Cuthbert ONLY lets you channel positive, but I'm probably wrong on this count.

You also can't cast alignment based spells contrary to your deity. That being said, yes, a neutral cleric with a true neutral god can use, and be affected negatively by, any of the alignment based spells -- though personally I would, if he wanted to, just grant him the Balance domain (which has the Word of Balance spell) as a free domain, and not permit alignment spells, but yes, he is intentionally able to use quite a huge variety of effects.
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Meh. The RP is ruined if people are going for "most powerful" anyway.

It isn't a videogame, the point is coming up with a character and roleplaying as them.
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>>29361560
>Yoda
>Neutral

He was Lawful Good, especially during the Clone Wars.

The only True Neutral in Star Wars were the Kaminoans.
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>>29361539
I apologize, I thought this:

>I mean, just because demons have the Outsider(Evil) classification, and that the template says "Alignment: Any Evil" doesn't mean that they're all evil... Oh wait yes it does

was you. If not, I suppose it was someone else saying there are no good demons ever.

I won't even argue with you about it being retarded or not.
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>>29361560
The warriors of the Inquisition are yours to command.
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>>29361568
>iirc someone like Wee Jas ONLY lets you channel negative and someone like St. Cuthbert ONLY lets you channel positive, but I'm probably wrong on this count.

I'm pretty sure this is only true of spontaneous casting. A cleric can convert their spells into heals or harms, but which they can do is locked in. I think a cleric can normally cast both. Though I'm starting to doubt myself as I type this.
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>>29361602
>Anything but the original trilogy
>canon
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>>29361620
Still Lawful Good during the original trilogy.

The only Neutral in the original trilogy was Ben Lars.
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>>29361617
Yeah. "channel negative" or "channel positive" refers to rebuke undead + spontaneous inflict, and turn undead + spontaneous cure.

>I think a cleric can normally cast both.

Yeah. Its easy to forget: good clerics can still harm, evil clerics can still heal. They just can't cast opposed alignment spells; on the other hand, good wizards can totally cast evil spells and vice versa. Still trying to find where it notes such does not affect their alignment, as this is a frequently contentious element.
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>>29361648
Now get back to moisture vaporating!
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>>29361539
>They are what they are, and they can't fucking alter their nature. If your setting has demons as just "regular folk with spikes who live in hell and are usually not very nice," then fuck you and your shit setting too.

This is a false dichotomy.

D&D demons/devils can be good. It's vanishingly rare, but possible. They are not, however, merely "not very nice" guys who happen to be in hell.

I've found it helps to think of D&D alignment not as morality, but as substance. Good and Evil are actually physical things that you can touch. An evil outsider in D&D is made of Evil in the same sense that a fire elemental is made of fire. Evil, the substance, has an impact on behavior, which is why "usually evil" races act in "evil" ways that seem logically unsustainable. "Being" evil or good, that is, having Evil or Good in you, is sort of like mercury poisoning, in that it makes you various shades of retarded. But whereas a goblin merely has a touch of the stuff (it's quite potent), a devil is made of it entirely - consistent with how outsiders work - and thus that HUGE EVIL makes the chance of any other moral conviction overriding that urge minuscule (but not technically impossible). This also justifies why a "good demon" can still be smote, and how a newborn imp can register as more evil than the most nefarious of humans - it's not that he's just the worst little shit ever, but he's actually crafted of Evil, the gunk.

I'm not saying it's a great idea, but that's IMO the clearest way of picturing it.
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>>29361683
It really, really should.
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>>29361704
Why aren't there Planes of Good and Evil then?

If they're substances, we should change alignments to Positive and Negative, since that's what [Good] and [Evil] spells channel.
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>>29361755
Aren't those called Heaven and Hell/the Abyss?
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>>29361617
A Cleric spotanious cast is locked on selection of your channel type, what spells you are able to cast of the Heal/Harm is not affected but you cant spontanious into the opposite even with the feat that allow you to channel both types.

Dont think you are restricted by aligment based spells either for that matter, but thats more DM to DM basis and dont qoute me on it.
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>>29361755
>What are "all of the outer planes", Alex.
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>>29361704
That's actually a fairly good description of it, I think.
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>>29361704
What about that succubus from Planescape: Torment?
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>>29361761
Depends on the setting you play, Golarion have a plane for every of the 6 Good / Evil combinations, where Infernal is CE i think and Abyssal is LE etc.

Dont remember what the plane setting was in forgotten realms and dont even start on planescape.
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>>29361704
OP here.

Did we just actually make some kind of progress on explaining and understanding the DnD alignment system?

That's going to resort in a black hole opening somewhere.
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>>29361807
Forgotten Realms used the Great Wheel in 3e, and probably in 2e.

Eberron uses it's own non-aligned system, though some planes are still dominated by certain alignments.

We all know what happened to 4e.
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>>29361843
No, what that guy posted isn't a new idea
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>>29361843
Nah. Just give it 5 minutes for someone to pop in and say that that description doesn't count despite it being extremely accurate and in-line with everything.
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>>29361755
>Why aren't there Planes of Good and Evil then?

It depends on what version you're on I guess, but at least back in original planescape, there were. IIRC the yugoloths, the NE outsiders, considered the Nine Hells, Abyss, Gehenna, etc. to be tainted by Law and Chaos, making them the only "pure" evil creatures (and thus the best ones). I only mentioned good and evil, but under the "substance understanding of alignment," Law and Chaos are equally things that outsiders can be made of (and can be present in trace quantities within mortals).

Negative/positive energy doesn't quite fit into this, because there's no chaos/law energy of the same kind. Then again, "negative energy" need not necessarily be the same thing as "evil the substance." Negative energy is associated with undeath - it will even kill an evil outsider - and clearly has some association with evil, but it's worth remembering that the positive energy plane is also not a very nice place in the sense that if you go where it's too strong your head will explode (along with the rest of you). Trying to conflate "evil the substance" and "negative energy" may not be very helpful or instructive.
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>>29361807
Golarion is a plane by itself.

Normal DnD planescape stuff still applies though to most extents.

Infernal is Devils, Lawful Evil
Abyssal is Demons and Daemons, Chaotic Evil and Elder Ancient Chaotic Chaos Evil, respectively
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>>29361772
>>29361761
I'm only familiar with 4e.
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>>29361704
So the question here...
Is it still in the rights of a Paladin to slay someone that is the rare case of being good to an extent, but is still make of raw Demon Devil Evil?

I'm going to go and probably say yes, since you can't assure that their presence isn't causing some kind of passive evil influence, and that you are still taking elemental evil out of the system.

This makes me question the title of "Temple of Elemental Evil"
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>>29361890
you poor bastard
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>>29361843
I must admit that this is actually more logical in both mechanics and lorewise.

Having alignments behave like a sort of "element" would be kind of mindbending, but it could make up for some interesting theorycrafting.

Personally i think Aligments on characters is more like a description, its what they are most likely to do in a situation but not restricted to bide by it 100%, Aligments in mechanics of smite and protections would make more sense if they behaved like a element ( like positive or negative but as a different "layer" or whatever )

So a element could be:
Fire as Natural Element
Chaotic Evil in its Behavior
True Neutral in its Aligment

But its rather mindbending and get rather cluttered rather fast in terms of detection and stuff.
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>>29361890
Congrats. You picked the edition that doesn't have a convoluted web of arguments surrounding alignment. I suggest fleeing in celebration.
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>>29361804
>What about that succubus from Planescape: Torment?

I haven't played Torment (gasp!) but I would assume that any non-evil succubus is one that has somehow managed to beat the gigantic odds and exercise free will to an extent that overrides the fact that they are composed of evil. As I said, that's really, really unlikely - think of how much "evil" must be in a goblin and how many good goblins there are, and then think of a being that's actually crafted out of the shit - but in the D&D understanding, outsiders mostly have unabridged free will, and thus the door is open (just a crack) for them to overcome it. But it's rare, as it should be.

>>29361807
>Did we just actually make some kind of progress on explaining and understanding the DnD alignment system?

I don't know, man. That's the explanation that makes the most sense to me and I thought it was worth posting. It's not like I'm claiming canon or anything.

I normally just shine alignment entirely in the games I GM, but back when I played Planescape it was helpful to just jump in the deep end and embrace alignment for all its weird quirks and inconsistencies. Thinking of it as "stuff" was the best way to justify how the system treats it.

If you're going to take it TOTALLY LITERALLY then it adds up new cans of worms, like whether you can extract Evil from things, or make someone Evil by putting Evil in them, and so on, so it's probably still best not to think about it too hard.
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>>29361873
Sure (I'm a little surprised that this isn't fairly obvious, but I guess it's just been part of my "explanations and houserules for my game" file for so many years), but education is still progress.
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>>29361909
>Is it still in the rights of a Paladin to slay someone that is the rare case of being good to an extent, but is still make of raw Demon Devil Evil?

That depends on whether the paladin considers his duty to be against "evil the morality" or "Evil the substance." Usually there's a great deal of overlap here, particularly with evil outsiders. Considering that demons and devils are known to deceive, however, and that if we treat Evil like a substance it is inherently bad news - just because a rare enlightened devil has overcome its influence doesn't mean it will do so forever, after all - I should think that a paladin would be justified in eliminating a Thing Made of Evil even if it's acting rather nice.
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>>29361953
>New Campaign idea: BUILD THE EVIL EXTRACTOR!!!
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>>29361953
The process of her fall from evil is full of spoilers, but I think it involved manipulation and betrayal.
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>>29361953
I'm not quite sure it makes that much sense.

>Good and Evil are elements of the universe
>Somehow every mortal has enough of one to offset the other and gain a moral alignment, or somehow lacks both/balances both to be Neutral
>Law and Chaos somewhere, possibly associated with "poles" of Law and Chaos in the multiverse

It's a little confusing.
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>>29361930
Well, if you think of it as an element of someones soul, that basically influences the tendency of their acts, it explains alot.

Like how Protection from X stops things beyond outsiders.

Sure mortals can be redeemed and replace parts of their soul, or at least the elements hovering around it influencing it

Same goes for order and chaos.

It is also more likely that the Soul attracts the element itself, even though the element influences the soul.
That way it could explain why a Paladin could fall into an Anti-paladin, by such a traumatizing event dispersing the good around his soul and then attracting evil to fill the empty shell.

Just as one can begin to remove earth from a bowl and watch it fill up with air.
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>>29361998
>even if it's acting rather nice

Especially then, since it's probably working an angle.
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>>29362007
Orzhov BBEG?

Orzhov BBEG.

Also someone archive this thread.
This is literally the first time in ages we've made any sense of the alignment system.
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>>29361953
>or make someone Evil by putting Evil in them, and so on

There is the Helmet of Alignment-Swapping.
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>>29362033
Well it's not hard to conceive the elemental chaos having "Poles" of earth, air, wind, water...

Like the image in >>29361880
It's not that hard to see the Outer Planes of the Gods to work the same way.

If every natural bit of life is made of positive energy, and careful combinations of earth, water, air, and fire... Then the Living thing's souls could be affected by the raw stuff of Good, evil, law, and Chaos.
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>>29362033
>Good and Evil are elements of the universe

And Chaos, and Law, equally so. I was just picking on Good and Evil earlier, but the system treats the axes essentially the same way.

>Somehow every mortal has enough of one to offset the other and gain a moral alignment, or somehow lacks both/balances both to be Neutral

Not quite. Remember that the Alignment and the Substance are two different things. Having Evil the Substance in you predisposes you to be morally evil, but it's not a certainty. The question is what causes what - when a human baby is born, does it contain evil and good already in it? Presumably not, otherwise that raises all sorts of tiresome "does my paladin fall" questions. Evil the Substance predisposes to evilness, but it may be that evilness also generates, attracts, or accumulates Evil the Substance. This seems necessary to explain why a mortal who changes from Evil to Neutral can no longer be the target of Smite Evil; his change in moral outlook has eroded the Evil within him. Maybe he's still got a little, who knows, but in any case it's not enough to trigger alignment-based effects.
>>
I have to say, this thread deserves to become a part of the archive due to the good discussions and ideas.... someone remember how you report it for archive? :S
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>>29360792
Meh.
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>>29362077
>There is the Helmet of Alignment-Swapping.

What's especially interesting about the Helm of Opposite Alignment is that, if it were simply an item that mind-controlled/dominated you to perform evil acts, you'd expect it to be an Enchantment item. It's not, however - it's a *transmutation* item. Transmutation, being the school of substance alteration, is a good fit for an item that changes your Good-the-Substance into Evil-the-Substance.

I'm sure the designers weren't thinking about it when they made it, but it's a fun little coincidence.
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>>29362061
Archive in Foolz or Suptg?
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>>29362160
Dude, Gygax is like Tzeench.

I'm positive he went to his grave not explaining jack shit about stuff on purpose just to confuse and piss people off.
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>>29362077
And by evil we really mean semen.
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>>29362125
What if every sentient being has an internal compass, that turns towards different points of the axis of the Outer Planes, that dictates their alignment?

So rather than being a substance it's a physical force, like magnetism for the soul.
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>>29362160
So if Pure Good™ and Pure Evil™ are assumed to exist as physical substances, can we extract and refine them?

I'm going to need the kingdom's entire prison population, an industrial-size food processor, and the biggest centrifuge we can build.
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>>29362252
>So if Pure Good™ and Pure Evil™ are assumed to exist as physical substances, can we extract and refine them?

Ah, but here's the rub - we've established already as part of this theory that Pure Evil™ is not inborn into mortals (otherwise you could smite babies), but rather generated or introduced (a minor bleed from the planes?) by evil actions.

It may be, then, that Evil the Substance also needs evil actions to *sustain* it, since presumably if a human stops doing evil things he will eventually register as not-evil on the paladinometer - perhaps not instantaneously, but soon enough. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos may simply not be sustainable outside the confines of the body and soul.

Maybe you could still perform an Evil Transfusion, though? We're on increasingly shaky ground here.
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>>29362252
See, >>29362007
and, >>29362061

It's a good basis for a BBEG.

I mean, traditional DnD is a bad setting for morally ambiguous pseudo-science, which is why nothing like this has ever happened in an official DND supplement...
It's better left to the Nucking Futs Pathfinder Alchemist who can legitimately find ways to make Positive energy zombies, and become a Pos. Energy undead themselves.
>>
>>29362252
>BBEG uncovers the existence of EVIL as a substance
>Plots to collect and slay millions of beings to harvest the fragments of EVIL within them, in order to forge a truly EVIL weapon
>Sends slaves into giant stone crushers
>Sends captives into giant stone crushers
>Sends underlings into giant stone crushers
>Gathers the collected blood on the Ethereal Plane

Pure EVIL refined.

But I think >>29362199 makes just a little bit more sense, I think.
>>
>>29362302
Well, Outer Realm substance around a person's soul is both in part a magnet for a man's moral compass, and is attracted to the moral compass tilting in the first place If I recall correctly, the pointer in a traditional compass is also magnetic if that helps speed along the metaphor.

So it WOULD make sense to gather up objectively evil people and then try to physically rip the evil from their souls if you were to gather evil, but who knows what effects that does to the person involved.

You can obviously transmute good to evil, but what happens when you rip it out entirely?

Also:
>>29362303
>>
>>29362337
What about this?

Soulstuff is generally Neutral substance that surrounds a being's moral compass. The alignment of the Planes and their racial collective unconsciousness, as well as their home plane, dictates the directions in which a soul's moral compass swings, as influenced by the soulstuff. And this transmutes the soulstuff into Good or Evil.
>>
>>29362423
That sounds great.
I couldn't have described it better.

I don't know why but DnD Cosmology is really interesting and fun.

Probably because my childhood was influenced by Planescape: Torment
I was like 8 or something, got lost for like 3 days in the starting Dustman crypts after killing literally everything and everyone.
>>
>>29361890
4e doesn't appear to have objective good/evil as part of its setting. Or rather, Chaotic Evil is an objective force; the Abyss and its dark heart is a festering cancer in the heart of the Elemental Chaos, and the heart of the Abyss has also driven many other deities and beings to depraved madness as well.

Everything else in 4e, though, is not good or evil in a "universal" sense, there's very very few alignment specific effects, and something like a devil is evil because of what its done (horrifyingly depraved acts for the last few thousand years), not "made of evil." Demons can poach from the ranks of angels, mortals, and even devils alike.

So yeah, 4e's pretty unusual in this regard, and I find it interesting -- though its totally different as well, which is bad to some folks.
>>
>>29361872

>Forgotten Realms used the Great Wheel in 3e, and probably in 2e.

I seem to recall that 3e's FR cosmology is very superficially different from the Great Wheel.

Also, Ed Greenwood (supposedly) originally planned for most the gods to share a Mt Olympus type place, good and evil deities alike, but felt coerced into using the Great Wheel type thing.
>>
>>29361909
This is actually an easily answered question.

The paladin isn't required to kill evil beings. He's required to punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Is the good demon still harming and threatening innocents? No? Then he doesn't have to kill him.

The paladin's code seems black and white, but it actually enables huge wiggle room.
>>
>>29362252
>>29362303


I think this is the general basis of the petitioner pokevolution of the outer planes and how a dead outsider dissipates into the substance of their plane.

Note also that, according to Fiendish Codex 1, the Abyss was the first outer plane to exist, and that the gods crafted the world from Raw Chaos and Pure Evil...


>I mean, traditional DnD is a bad setting for morally ambiguous pseudo-science, which is why nothing like this has ever happened in an official DND supplement...

...and that FC 1 also has rules for extracting this powerful, versatile substance from the bodies of demons to provide permanent boosts, to empower magic items, or to fuel the XP costs of spells.

All forms of mucking around with this is considered a chaotic act, but not an evil act, ergo even a paladin-sorcerer can dick around with it (paladins aren't barred from chaotic acts, just evil ones).
>>
>>29362199
maybe that magnatism doesnt start when you are born, but the closer you get to an alignment the more your soul is open to the plane of that alignment, and the more you are pulled in. so a baby goblin isnt automatically being drawn towards abbadon, but as he gets older it gets harder and harder to NOT be NE.
>>
Part of me is thankful that Pathfinder narrows down the bajillion useless outer planes and condenses them into 9 aligned planes (Two of which have different names depending on whether you're playing core or campaign setting.)
>>
>>29362609

Just because a paladin is more beholden to uphold good than law doesn't mean he still won't fall if he commits enough chaotic acts to drop him to Neutral Good.
>>
>>29362721
Golarian may be a bad, awkward catch-all, but if you actually use the more specified planes, or do a planeswalking adventure like Reign of Winter, It's actually pretty good.
>>
>>29362747

Golarion's real problem is that the devs want the Material Plane to be all this other stuff, like other planets and cosmoses and then there's the Dark Tapestry which is basically just Deepest Darkest Far Realm in space.
>>
>>29362744
Just commit 1 more lawful deed (such as: binding a lawful good celestial) per day than chaotic deeds.

As long as your god doesn't give a fuck (your god in all likelihood used abyssal essence to shape the world or part of it, and so is eminently unlikely to give a fuck; infinitely moreso if he is NG), you're respecting authority, abiding your promises, behaving with honor, and doing more lawful acts than chaos, you're golden.
>>
>>29362744
That's what I was thinking.

As a normal person you can commit a few acts of a certain degree every now and then without your soulstuff changing to your moral compass.

As a Paladin though, you are barred from Evil acts...
However it doesn't mean that tilting to chaos isn't a threat.

Especially if you start to play around ripping out and tossing about the soulstuff of people, even evil ones.

Better off containing it in a corpse, then having that stuff out in the open air.
>>
>>29362785

>Especially if you start to play around ripping out and tossing about the soulstuff of people, even evil ones.

Extracting a demon's essence may damage you and the demon, but it doesn't have to kill it, and it can even be consensual.

>Better off containing it in a corpse

If you kill a demon, its essence returns to the Abyss, there to form a new demon.

For that matter, if you kill an evil anything that has a soul, you are creating a new tortured monster in the lower planes.
>>
>>29362846
The Quincy Solution is called for:
remove the Demon from the cycle.
>>
>>29362521
As far as I remember...
>Prime Material Plane squished against the Ethereal and Shadow Planes
>Inner Planes the same
>Outer Planes the same
>Deities and powerful mages/outsiders create their own demiplanes to inhabit
>Ao rules over all
>>
>>29362699
Or perhaps a being's actions can alter the compass?
>>
>>29363037
>Ao exists over all
fixed
>>
>>29363057
yeah. so if you somehow redeemed some asshole and he was LG for years and years, it would be hard for him to fall into the same habits.
>>
>>29363077
>>29363037
I can't read Ao without thinking of Ao from Eureka Seven: Astral Ocean.
>>
>>29363057
>>29363092

Basically.

It's a feed-back loop to an extent.

If someone is inclined to be lawful good, perhaps by LG acts around him as a child, he will attract law and good soulstuff into his soul, and that will continue to steer him in the direction of LG and strengthen his soulstuff.
>>
>>29361193
that's even fucking worse.

those are literally the only threads i autofilter
>>
>>29361145
>>29361257
Read Planescape.

Chaotic demons will literally act Lawful to piss off other demons. The ones who are feeling particularly rebellious and or chaotic will start acting good.

It's perfectly cannon.
>>
>>29360104
>the cursed apathy that is the Neutral alignments
Neutral has nothing whatsoever to do with apathy. It is a lack of adherence to an ideology. Neutral on the Law/Chaos alignment means you don't care whether you follow the rules or break them. On the Good/Evil axis it means you hve no sense of right and wrong. It does not mean you are apathetic, it means you pursue your goals through whatever methods seem the most effective at the time, regardless of their ethical or legal status.

So whoever it is in your world who is playing neutral as apathetic is doing it wrong.
>>
>>29361396
What version of D&D is this?

Reading the text of Protection from FOO, it explicitly only protects you from FOO, not non-anti-FOO.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm
>>
>>29363419
Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me autofilter exists.
>>
So the devils have Asmodeus, demons have their various archdemons, modrons have Primus, and archons have Zaphkiel and whatever else lives in the seventh heaven. But is there a supreme figure among the rilmani? Is there a being who is the neutrallest of all?
>>
>>29367050
There is, but he never speaks to anyone, or else he might form an opinion.
>>
>>29362322
>Gather enough souls "magnetized" towards evil and compress them until they're dense enough to create a black hole of evil.
>>
>>29367600
Isn't that basically the abyss?
>>
>>29360792
Like not even Q whimsical god-geings
just a bunch of depressed cubicle workers in a day to day routine that can't be arsed to use their game breaking reality warping powers for anything
they could instantly teleport to work if they had to but they take the crappy car so they can drive by the coffee shop
>>
>>29362252
Just dig up some lost elven civilization, stick a tube in the ground and pump up that delicious morality.
They're dead fossils they're not using their souls anyway, you can use it to fuel your machinations.
Fuel from fossils, but what should we call it?
>>
>>29364003
>Simply being a bland and boring little shit, with no real dedication or commitment to a way of life or specific personality is the most powerful?
>>
>>29368693
>I see no advantage to being immune to all alignment-based bullshit.
>>
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>>29360104
>I can only think with my sword
convert them. if you can't, you can probably find a reason to smite them instead.

you're literally complaining that people aren't evil enough.
>>
>>29369155
Int is the only dumpstat a paladin has.
>>
>>29368617
Aetherium? Ectite?
Might just be an alternate take on ectoplasm? Like the goo left by ghosts is a manifested form of the moral decisions they made in life and their after-death existence.
Saturium (I'm thinking saturnine, like emotionally-based names)
Ectite, Ectane, Protium, Moragen, Emogen, Ethigen, Orichalium...

Empathane...

Hmm... I should study roots more.
>>
What about 4e's alignment system?
>>
>>29368617
Nah, this stuff returns to the Planes after a soul is claimed by their god and goes to the afterlife, to be reused when a new soul is born.
>>
>>29373604
4e doesn't count.
They bastardized the Planescape, and alignment is no longer relevant.

Woohoo, go NEXT
Chaotic Randumb paladins all the way!
>>
>>29373632
>reused
Wait.
Wait...
Does this mean that there is a limited amount in the universe?
>mfw a BBEG sets out on a quest to become the evilest, so his soul will attract all the evilstuff in the universe, thus causing everyone else to be neutral or good.
>>
>>29375568
Well, just like there's a limitless plane of Water, I doubt there is a limit to evil or good.

Evil just doesn't seem to linger around in corpses that aren't about to become undead.

Same goes for Good, it's still recycled, but the source is literally infinite.
>>
Alignment should be used as a tool to guide one's roleplaying. Nothing more or less. If you're straying, the DM should let you know and discuss changing your alignment as a means of character development.
>>
TRUE NEUTRAL STORYTIME.

In the ancient history of the World of Greyhawk the Suel and Bakluni empires were built upon the magical foundations of Law and Chaos. They became too powerful, too contentious, and too extreme. War was inevitable. The Suel magi, intolerant of the maddening chaos of their Bakluni rivals, unleashed the Invoked Devastation. This apocalyptic ritual was simply a continent sized disintegration. It made all the lands of the Bakluni co-terminous with a previously unknown outer plane (probably somewhere in the Abyss) which disintegrates all it comes into contact with, a much larger version of the secret mechanism behind the disintegration spell. The lands of the Bakluni were indeed devastated by this invocation. Everyone in the Bakluni lands died watching everything around them crumble into gray dust...
>>
>>29378214

...but some Bakluni archmages survived. Hidden in pocket dimensions, able to teleport out of range in time, travelling in distant lands. They escaped the Invoked Devastation. They escaped, they survived, and they plotted a dreadful revenge. Temporarily putting aside all their chaotic differences and divisions, they united to bring about the RAIN OF COLORLESS FIRE, a multitude of gateways to the quasi-elemental plane of acid. Acid poured upon the Suel lands and reduced their kingdoms in a nightmare of corrosion. Few survived. Civilization itself collapsed. Barbarism reigned for centuries. Tribes worshipped demons. It was the darkest possible age.
>>
>>29378328

As civilization rebuilt itself, new archmagi arose in the East of Flanaess: Mordenkainen, Bigby, Tenser, Rary, Leomund, Nystul, Bucknard, Drawmij. In their researches into the hidden mysteries of the past, they discovered the truth behind the ancient legends of apocalypse. They saw parallels in the current age. The rise of great powers, opposite extremes, always ending in disasterous conflict. At first, they were only concerned with knowledge and learning, rediscovering the secrets of the past and forging new ideas and advancements. But the truth bore hard on Mordenkainen and Bigby. Scrying into the future, discerning the motivations of gods and demons, it all pointed to doom for Oerth. The prime material planes were created as an eternal battleground for Law, Chaos, Good and Evil. It was a crucible of souls. To Mordenkainen, and others like him, it was utterly intolerable...
>>
>>29378662

Mordenkainen brought together his fellows, and convinced them of the need to maintain the balance of the world, to allow no extremes to dominate, to counter eternal manipulations from the outer powers. They agreed, and the Circle of Eight was born in secret to prevent the world from plunging off the pivot. The most powerful archmagi in the world had embraced True Neutrality and would now act to preserve civilization from behind the scenes.
>>
Does true neutral always mean you're some sort of retarded faggot druid, or could you be someone whose actions aren't generally good, evil, chaotic or lawful?
>>
>>29378885

The Circle of Eight placed themselves in and around the Free City of Greyhawk. It was a wild land, dominated by dangers of every type. A land that bred adventurers. These they recruited, and sent on bizarre and often inexplicable quests and missions, all to further the secret ends of True Neutrality. The Circle became successful, despite their many quarrels. It seemed that Mordenkainen's vision of peace through balance was becoming a reality. But someone disagreed. He was a member of the Circle, dedicated to True Neutrality as much as any. He saw the circle as rising up to become the very thing thy feared, an extreme power inviting an even more extreme backlash. He struggled with his conscience for years, searching his soul for an answer. They would call him Rary the Traitor...
>>
>>29378953
How is this hard? A neutral person does good things if they're in his best interest, or if he feels like it, and turns a blind eye to evil if its in his best interest, or if he feels like it.
>>
>>29379246
isn't that just evil
>>
>>29375051
>bastardized

You mean improved.
>>
>>29366413

>What version of D&D is this?

The one you linked to just now.

>Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

>Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.
>>
>>29379258
No?
>>
>>29379246
You just literally described Neutral Evil.
>>
>>29379258
Evil types do evil acts when they stand to benefit, or if they feel like it.

Neutral chars don't do evil acts, but they don't necessarily mind benefiting from them. They also don't necessarily mind the darker shit that isn't fully evil, like slavery and racial persecution, that good characters can't abide by.

On the law/chaos axis, they abide by the law when convenient or desirable, and break the law when convenient or desirable.
>>
>>29379422

>You just literally described Neutral Evil.

Literally is not the new figuratively, dude.

>A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience.

Neutral Evil people -do- evil things.
True Neutral characters don't, but they allow them.

Remember, "evil inaction" is not a concept in the objective morality system -- all flavors of evil inaction are neutral.
>>
>>29379514
this system sounds pretty retarded.

surely evil acts should just be things that benefit yourself at the expense of others.
>>
>>29361119
Everyone already did. They just missed him.
>>
>>29379692

>surely evil acts should just be things that benefit yourself at the expense of others.

Nah, that rules out selfless evil, and that also makes it so paladins can fall by inaction, which is stupid as fuck.
>>
>>29379619
No actually mean, that you just described Neutral Evil.

I don't meant that as a buzzword, you literally described the Alignment.
>>
>>29379146

Rary feared that the Circle's actions would inevitably be discovered and discerned, and that all the powers of the Multiverse would turn against Oerth. He scryed the future, he searched for a way out, a way to save his world. And he found one. To preserve the world, Rary became convinced that the Circle of Eight must be broken by betrayal and murder.

Rary, the peacemaker of the Paynim Tribes. Rary the Wise, Rary the Deliberate, settler of arguments, always the voice of reason, who stressed moderation and compromise -- must and would turn against his friends and allies. It drove him insane.

Meanwhile, the Circle focused it's efforts on the continent spanning conflict known as the Greyhawk Wars. It began as part of a struggle between two evil forces. On one side was the recently freed Demon Prince Graz'zt, his (sometimes ally sometimes enemy) lover Iggwilv, their son Iuz the Evil, and Zuggtmoy, Demon Queen of Fungi (Iuz's lover). They opposed the Demon Prince Demogorgon, who had sown madness and demonic possession throughout the corrupted nobility of the Great Kingdom. Soon, every nation became embroiled in this struggle. The Circle worked to manipulate events that spiraled out of their control. When the wars dragged to a halt through sheer exhaustion, the Scarlett Brotherhood, an cruel order of Suelese Monks, sent diplomatic feelers to all the nations and their delegates came together in the Free City of Greyhawk to forge an unlikely peace.

That is when Rary struck. Using secrets earned in confidence, he and his confidant Lord Robilar fought an unprecedented magical conflict against Tenser and Otiluke. The carnage of this Wizard's brawl were horrendous. Many innocents perished despite the best intentions of both sides. The treaty negotiations themselves were imperiled. When the dust settled, Rary and Robilar had fled, and Otiluke and Tenser lay dead beyond all hope of resurrection.
>>
>>29379274
Less fluff means poor world building.
>>
>>29380006

What part of "to be evil, you must perform evil actions" is eluding you, comrade?
>>
>>29361227
That's almost as bad as the Good Illithid Monk.

Almost. Atleast that succubus paladin isn't printed in an actual book.
>>
>>29380067
It can mean poor or better world building, depending on quality of fluff. For example, the Elemental Chaos holds more potential than all the Elemental, Quasi-Elemental and Para-Elemental planes put together, as every storyline ever told or invented with the Planescape elemental planes can also be told in the Elemental Chaos, but the reverse is not true.
>>
>>29380102
Since its an established part of the lore that good beings can become evil, and good is inherently more attractive and desirable than evil, its just as logical for evil beings to become good.
>>
>>29379992
>selfless evil

what does that even mean

is evil supposed to mean you consort with demons or something?
>>
>>29380018

The Circle of Eight was now the Circle of Five. Rage and sorrow placed Mordenkainen beyond the hope of reconciliation. He put all his considerable talents to the purpose of vengeance. Rary was well prepared for this, despite having been driven mad by his convictions. Despite all of Mordenkainen's best efforts, Rary continues to elude his former friend. To this day, Mordenkainen continues to seek revenge, scarcely giving thought to Rary's motivations.

THE END... for now.
>>
Is there a spell that grants protection from the neutral? Does one need protection from neutrality?
>>
That paladin succubus breaks the rules. She should fall for associating with herself.
>>
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TFW in the most recent PF adventure path, there's a CG succubus cleric who was basically made CG because a CG deity mindraped her in her sleep
>>
>>29380217

>what does that even mean

One of the most common takes on evil is the idea of the loyal evil vassal who is 100% A-OK with taking one for the team, and doesn't exhibit any noticeable ambition towards replacing the boss. It also includes evil beings that don't view their cause as evil (ie. "I must exterminate all the orcs, even their children, it will make the world a better place in the long run, you'll see"), evil clerics who serve out of devotion instead of greed, etc.
>>
>>29380151
Meh. That makes it "Kitchen Sink" but I guess that's a subjective matter of taste.
>>
>>29360104
Bureaucratic neutral master race.
>>
>>29380274
You cannot be your own associate, your own ally, or your own enemy, as far as the rules are concerned.
>>
>>29380259
All forms of Protection from Evil/Good/Law/Chaos also work on Neutrals.
>>
>>29380506
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/protection-from-evil
>>
>>29380381
Like cramming in norse myth, greek myth and judaeochristian stuff and everything else, plus Sigil itself, isn't kitchen sink.
>>
>>29380582
Yup, PF is very different, mainly in terms of removing all counters to magic types.
>>
>>29380506
I don't see this listed anywhere.
>>
>>29381064
You mean the part where Paizo added the ability for it to be resisted by SR?

Yeah, that's definitely removing counters to magic alright.

And blocking Neutrals wasn't even mentioned in 3.5's protection from evil.
>>
>>29379367
Only some of that applies to neutral characters. And you're missing the best part:

TN characters can cast all 4 versions of that on themselves.
>>
>>29382579
It blocks non-good summoned creatures (and their natural weapons) and mind control (regardless of alignment).
>>
>>29381334
>>29380582
>>29382579
>3.5 protection from Evil:

This spell wards a creature from attacks by evil creatures, from mental control, and from summoned creatures. It creates a magical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the subject and has three major effects.

First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures.
>First effect, Evil only.

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.
>Second effect, all alignments, even Good.

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.
>Third effect, all except Good.
>>
>>29382830

Ah I see the difference, they're both very similar...
However doesn't that mean that the C in CoDzilla is weakened slightly though?
Isn't that a good thing?
>>
>>29382935
Found the source link:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Protection_from_Evil

Well, i must say i really prefer the Pathfinder wording as it states evil in all of the cases.
>>
>>29380342
You could do that. It would create an interesting dilemma. Or the players could shrug and say "works for me."
>>
>>29382983
...what does making neutrals more powerful, and protections against mind control spells weakened, have to do with the C in CoDzilla? Both clerics and wizards can cast protection from evil.

>>29383618

Yeah, we can't have casters having viable countermeasures against them, now can we?
>>
>>29380506
>All forms of Protection from Evil/Good/Law/Chaos also work on Neutrals.
Only in 3.5. PF changed a lot of things for curious reasons. True Neutral is the one PF alignment immune to all Protections.
>>
>>29369888
In PF, Wis is a Paladin dumpstat too.
>>
>>29383884
Ah well it's good both are weaker.
>>
>>29361648
I'm pretty sure him being a drug dealer makes him at least chaotic neutral; if not LE.

And you don't know what's in that blue milk he kept feeding too Luke
>>
>>29383992
Yeah, a good way to make casters weaker is to eliminate any of the cheap reliable ways to defend against them.
>>
>>29361227
>>29380102
Paizo printed a non-evil demon. A CN risen succubus, almost CG.
>>
>>29361704
Because Good is harder to maintain in large amounts, yet obviously prevalent even in Evil creatures, wouldn't it make sense to say Good is more widespread but less powerful while Evil is concentrated and virulent as well?

Like, in DnD many of the bad guys, up to and including BBEGs are not born bad but are sort of memetically infected by witnessing evil acts. either as a cultural norm or a watershed moment in a character's development? Like a paladin falling from grace kind of.
>>
>>29360792
Basically in every game I run I conceive of there being a hidden tower of TN wizards protected by all sorts of spells that makes it practically unfindable by even the most sophisticated magic or most shrewd pathfinders, and who do nothing but study and practice magic all day. I never tell anyone this. Especially not my players. I wouldn't even mention it here if I weren't anonymous. Actually, I consider that in every campaign it's the same tower that somehow exists on all planes. Maybe someday I'll let a party stumble upon it in a chance of one in infinitrillion billion gorillion. The wizards won't even know what to do with them. The party will ask if there are any rewards. "Nah." Are there any quests they could do? "Well, I guess we could ask someone to get some reagents, but Phil's visiting his in-laws next week and he can fetch some on the way. We'd rather not get involved or indebted or anything. We'll just teleport you away now. Please don't tell anyone. But we don't really care. It's not like anyone would find us. Have a nice life!"
>>
>>29386762
Beats me, but you'll notice good versions of creatures are usually stronger than evil ones.

Compare solars and planetars vs balors and pit fiends, gold vs red dragons, etc


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