Elder Scrolls lore part deux.Mantlan. CHIMan. Realizing Numidium was just a giant Evangelionan.Personally, I think that - unfortunately - they'll totally ignore the Skyrim protagonist's importance when making the next game. They basically did the same to Nerevarine, who was a similarly bullshit-powerful figure of local religious importance, so...
So.. wait. The janitor was helping the thread stay alive by deleting the "NOT /TG/ RELATED" spam, but then he deleted it? Or another janitor/mod disagreed with him?
>>20576673Or the OP did it. Or the janitor did it accidentally. It's a moot point. Elder Scrolls is a setting. A setting in which a roleplaying game has occurred. A table top one.
>>20576673I see your Dunmer and raise you a Redguard.
Why do we love TES lore? Not because it's original. Almost nothing in TES is original. Even the Dunmer are just carbon-copied drow. They're organized into houses, they have institutionalized assassins, slavery, they're total assholes, they have three main deities, they even worship a spider god (Mephala).We like them because they're a glorious amalgam of unoriginality, twisted around just enough to be interesting.And yes, I'm quite sure the Dohvakiin will be reduced to a footnote in future games, just like all the others.
>>20576691I'd absolutely fucking love to see TES minis and a TES wargame. Holy shit.
>>20576673The world may never know. That is unless the powers that be could stop with the code of silence bullshit and tell us fucking why once in a while.
>>20576703>Even the Dunmer are just carbon-copied drowYou shut your whore mouth. They're elven Jews, as previously established
>>20576702I'd love to have a proper Hammerfell game, or at least a detailed map and some additional lore to run a Pen and Paper game.
>>20576703They also worship a weirdo Athena and an asshole traitor-god.
>>20576702Racial tiers, dependent on amount of awesomeBRO TIER: Dunmer, Redguards, OrcsCOOL TIER: Nords, Argonians, BosmerMEH TIER: Imperials, KhajiitBORING AS FUCK TIER: Bretons, Altmer
So yeah. Today since I have the day off I'll try and write up some stuff about Dwevangelion.The lore and metaphysics are too perfect to pass this up, gentlemen.
How did Vivec achieve CHIM? If it came from the heart of Lorkhan why didn't it affect Almalexia and Sotha Sil?
>>20576730Jesus Christ how horrifying.
I think the PC from previous games would best be summed up as "Multiple peoples doings, personified as a singular hero's doings in legend." The neravarine is the closest to a single beleivable hero. The other two most recent "Legends" are... bad.
>>20576726BRO TIER: Dunmer, Argonians, OrcsCOOL TIER: Nords, Khajiit, Redguards, BosmerGENERIC TIER: Imperials,BORING AS FUCK TIER: BretonsRAPE TIER: AltmerYou're wrong and I'm right.
>>20576738It's not really clear when Vivec achieved CHIM. The Heart did NOT do it, however. All someone can take from the heart is stolen divinity. It's fake and fleeting.Note that Dagoth Ur actually achieved anti-CHIM.
>>20576726The Orcs are little more than misogynistic idiot savages who know how to work metal.
>>20576738It's totally independent of the Heart. It's just something people can learn how to do, or something. Alternatively, it's just a bullshit catchall explanation for any retcons and/or other inconsistencies in the lore.If it even exists. Which it might not.
>>20576738The Heart may have given him some insight, but his CHIM didn't come from Lorkhan. You don't get CHIM from others - it's a thing you achieve.As for Almalexia and Sotha Sil? They didn't achieve it because they were never looking. They were content to make themselves play-actor versions of the Daedra they were emulating, and stay within those portfolios. Only Vehk went looking for the answers.As for the specifics as to how he did it? Gimme five seconds, I'll throw the links together again.
>>20576746This, though I'd move Khajiit up for having an established cuisine.
>>20576769http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-twenty-onehttp://www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-thirty-fivehttp://www.imperial-library.info/content/towerI can also give a quick-and-dirty explanation if you'd rather not read all of that right now.
>>20576755That's not even true in Daggerfall, dude, where they aren't even playable. Gortwog is a total bro even then. They did have some... linguistic difficulties in Morrowind, I'll give you that.
The Orcs are eventually going to realize that as long as they worship Malacath, Orsinium will keep being destroyed. He is, after all, a god of pariahs and downtrodden.Of course, without Malacath, who are they?
>>20576801The go to smiths, since the Dwemer aren't around.Spooking of which, I'd be interested in a game set 'before' the fall of the Dwemer, when the various civilizations weren't in their current apocalyptic states.
>mfw shitspammer is too stupid to recognize an Ordinator and resume his spamConfirmed for fiilthy newfag AND butthurt baby
>>20576789There are exceptions, some Orcs born with exceptional charisma, intelligence and wisdom. Like the Librarian in Cheydenhall, or the Chef guy in skyrim, but by large orc culture is not very pleasant or fair. If it weren't for the legionairs they'd not even be tolerated besides being thugs and blacksmiths.
>>20576822I love the Orc book merchant in Leyawiin."Buy a goddamn book, damnit!"
They need Nerevarine to return. Maybe try to make Morrowind independent or something, and return it to Daedra worship(since the Tribunal is gone, except for their eternal god-presence)
>>20576832Right, I mean Leyawiin.The Orc in Cheydenhall was the Butler.
>>20576818I'm watching you too, scum.I'm watching all of you.I could make an effective replacement for spy satellites with all the watching I do.
>>20576836Takemymoney.jpgIf the nerevarine returned with his near god-like power and liberated Morrowind I cannot tell you how happy that would make me.
>>20576822Also the Orc librarians in Balmora, and Winterhold's colleges.
>>20576848Apparently orcs love books.
>>20576788I sort of understood the first one (except about the lizard gods) but the second one is gibberish to me. Explain it please.
>>20576857Those copies of ABCs for Barbarians did NOT go unused in the inner-city schools of Orsinium.
>>20576861That's the true test of the 36 lessons... do you delve deeper in a futile attempt for greater understanding, or do you grasp the true meaning that there IS no meaning, that there is only gibberish?
>>20576857Orcs in general aren't stupid, but savage. But there are some REALLY stupid orcs out there to perpetuate that myth.Like that Orc maiden who was kidnapped by Trolls in Oblivion and demands a mace to be beat the tar out of them because her idiot father wants her to act like an imperial hussie.
>>20576857Perhaps bethesda was trying to make some outliers, to offset the stereotype. I seem to recall there were a couple Orc alchemists in Morrowind as well, though my memory is a little hazy.
>>20576705We have a wargame.http://1d4chan.org/wiki/ScrollhammerNo minis though, conversions only.
>>20576878But there clearly is meaning. Even with my limited knowledge of TES lore I can see some of it. Do you just like being contrarian?
>>20576750>anti-CHIM.Uh... kinda? That's not exactly an accurate description I think.
>>20576881Orc dialog in Morrowind is really weird too. You've got that guy in Suran who will give you the most detailed information in the game about various different weapon styles, and then you've got the guy in Caldera who can barely put a sentence together, and gives you a diamond cause it's a "stupid rock." Or you ask a normally intelligent Orcish commoner about Khartag Point, and they go from spouting coherent Morrowind lore to "dat a big rock hurr."
>>20576881>>20576887Orcs aren't usually stupid, but when they are they're legendary. In skyrim a necromancer who traps you in a small pool of water in has a journal that references how he told one that if he could hold his head underwater longer than a burning candlewick stays lit he's go free. The orc drowned in minutes.
>>20576893I don't deny that there's hidden meaning, only that those hidden meanings aren't actually meaningful. If that means anything to you.
>>20576939Dunmer are generally dicks.
>>20576861The lizard-gods simply refers to the creation myth of the Tsaesci. It's part of the concept of the monomyth - various stories that all tell the same ur-Story, of the Convention, but which might change details. The world was an egg - the striking was the Convention.I think. It's been a while since I've read the Tsaesci creation myth. In any case, it's not important.The first thing to get out of the way is that the entirety of existence, from the most mortal part of Nirn to the great expanses of Magnus' Aetherius, is the dream-hallucination of a schizophrenic Godhead. Each thing within it is a subdivision of the Godhead's persona experiencing itself subjectively, anon unto eternity. The delusions of ego, therefore, are the only things that separate one part of the Dream from any other part - your concept of yourself. "I."To achieve CHIM is to realize this fact, but that's not all that's required. Once you've realized (and not intellectually, but truly) that there is no real distinction between you and everything else, that you are them and they are you, that "I am all We," if you don't go anywhere from there, you zero sum and dissolve into the universe. You cease to exist as a separate entity.But if you can realize that there is no difference, and then still maintain your ego, your sense of self, your identity, then instead of dissolving you achieve CHIM, the state of royalty, which is akin to lucid dreaming. You, a Dreamer who knows you are Dreaming, can alter the Dream.In essence: "I am and I are all We."
>>20576939Any meaning you can find in that book is circular and meant to deceive. Much of the lore of the Elder Scrolls is steeped in Mysticism which is only ever explained in allegories. The book takes advantage of the reader who assumes that there is a deeper meaning when there is not and keeps leading them on.
>>20576949that's putting it lightly, but at least they have an interesting culture. Where as Bosmer are FILTHY TREE CLIMBERS.And Altmer are just dicks who ride on the fame of their ancestors, so, really haven't gotten shit done in a while.
>>20576949That doesn't stop them from being hilariously awesome. Like Athyn Sarethi, the main Redoran questgiver, fighting his brother in a duel to secure leadership in the House. His bro was prophesied to never shed a drop of blood, so everybody assumed he was unbeatable. Athyn just used a mace and killed his ass stone dead.
>>20576878>>20576934>>20576961I am so glad that other people share my opinion of the 36 lessons. Some folks on the web think they're the fucking greatest things ever written, and the only source of the One True Lore.
>>20576966The Altmer have taken great care to actually ensure that they are in fact the same species as their ancestors. Unlike the Nords or Dummer who are basically degenerates of their ancestors or those bastard half-breed bretons.
>>20576966>Bosmer>not having an interesting cultureRead a book.
>>20576961People keep saying this. I keep disagreeing.The Sermons are a rather dense text that require sifting Vehk's historical revisionism from fact, and understanding what his lies illustrate. But they're not nonsensical, and the conclusions I've reached don't seem to circle back into the Sermons.Why exactly do you say there's nothing of actual substance there?
>>20576966Bosmer are religious carnivores with a weird-ass hive mind magic that gets broken out under extreme circumstances. Altmer are cold-hearted intellectuals trying to either find a way out of Nirn or reverse the events that led to it being formed in the first place.The Thalmor aren't against humanity. They are against the IDEA of humanity. Their goal is to eliminate it from ever having existed, so that the mer can go back to being divine and deathless.
>>20577000Well actually if you read carefully- Oh god, this is just like my fucking Modern American History lecture class.
>>20576961True, but through apopheny(Spelled wrong, can't find correct spelling) we could all easily bring out a deeper meaning that is true to us, but entirely separate from the writer's image.
>>20577005The one thing I liked about Skyrim was fudging my personal canon a bit to pretend my Viking Shitkicker custom class motherfucker was a veteran of the wars against the Thalmor. Fuck the boring plot, fuck the stupid underwhelming dragon crap, I smashed some Thalmor good.
You know why House Redoran was the best? Because while all the other houses quailed before the daedric invasion, the Redoran fought to the last. They actually raised their palace as a necromantic beast to fight the daedra, as it had been built in the shell of a titanic crab.Redoran go down fighting the enemy.
>>20577017Fair enough, I guess. A lot of what I've come to understand of the Sermons comes from reading other Kirkbride works that expound on them, though.Vehk's Teachings were as a whole really helpful in that, as was the Loveletter (even if the Loveletter is a goddamn hard thing to wrap your head around at first).
>>20576909It's a pretty impressive testament to his determination that he actually drowned. Survival instinct hardwired into the brain would be screaming at you to go up for air.
>>20577005The Thalmor don't just want that, they want the destruction of the entire Mundus so they can go back to being spirits again. As long as the Mundus exists, they'll be trapped. So they hate Lorkhan and they hate everything he represents, and everyone who represents him (Shor, Shezarr, Talos, etc).The ultimate goal of the Altmer is the destruction of the universe. Which is pretty badass, but also asspained to a degree that is beyond comprehension.
House Hlaalu - elf globalist capitalistsHouse Telvanni - elf libertariansHouse Indoril - elf religious bigotsHouse Dres - elf southernersHouse Redoran - elf bushido
>>20577027Survical instincts also tell you to don't charge your enemy when you're outnumbered and retreat is an option, a favorable option. But that's what makes them special. They don't care about living to old age. Hell, they're more Nord than even the heroes of Sovengarde. Just the whole Malacath nonsense keeps them from their just resting place.
>>20577022It's hard being a Khajiiti Redoran. But when the slave trader's bones suddenly show up stuffed under their beds it helps me sleep better at night.
>>20577022>Redoran fought to the last. They actually raised their palace as a necromantic beast to fight the daedra, as it had been built in the shell of a titanic crab.This was the best thing ever. >Alright, it's settled. We're all going out in a blaze of glory. Any questions?>I just don't feel like it's AWESOME enough.>What if we raised the entire town centre as a giant undead crab monster to fight beside us?>Yeah alright let's go.
>>20577037That's... actually really accurate. Wow.
>>20577032Which is contrived in the first place because regardless if they kill all humans, they still haven't destroyed the actual cause of their perceived mortality.
>>20577037So basically they're a bunch of Elf Americans... and then Redoran.
>>20577044Redoran supported the slave trade because it was one of their rights from the treaty, not because they particularly liked slavery. Hell, I recently went through a Redoran playthrough of Morrowind and I can't remember a single Redoran actually even owning a slave.They're definitely the best house, and considering what's happened to all the others, I think they took the best option.
>>20577059They don't want to kill all humans. Or rather, it's incidental to their goals: If Talos didn't exist, humanity in general wouldn't even matter that much to them.But because Talos assumed the role of the Missing God and is holding the Wheel together as the spoke at the centre, the Thalmor need to remove him before they can go about undoing Convention.This necessitates killing the concept of Man. Not killing all men, as then they'd still exist as a concept, but literally erasing the concept of mankind from the universe, because if they can do that, they will erase Talos as well.And then they can go about their business and undo Convention, and live again as et'Ada.
>>20577037I always knew Telvanni were best.
>>20576959Ok I knew most of that. But we don't know what Vivec did specifically to reach CHIM or when he did it?>It's part of the concept of the monomyth - various stories that all tell the same ur-Story, of the Convention, but which might change details. The world was an egg - the striking was the Convention.Does that mean that Tamriel isn't special? I've heard that the world began at Direnni Tower and expanded outward. Is that only true from the pov of Tamrielic myths?>>20577032Are the Mer aligned to Anu?
>>20577069They owned a couple slave pens, but they did not really employ any slaves, besides that, their general awesomeness won me over.also, Apophenia, FUCK
>>20577079They weren't the best, but they were the most terrifying. A bunch of wizards with godlike power and absolutely no concept of morality all stewing in their island mushroom forest?A recipe for disaster. One of them was boning his daughterwifeclones. No wonder the Daedra raped them, they apparently just passed the problem on to underlings.
>>20577075How do they plan on killing a concept? Remove all evidence of mans existence, then wait for all of the people who remember mankind to die off?
>>20577100They must mantle the CHIM and put the deus ex in the machina with the mcguffin Heart of Lorkhan but not before they squibbledibibble the Kirkbride Device and consume Chimarvamidium.
>>20577081Ah, sorry. The specific method of achieving CHIM is generally referred to as seeing the Tower: The world is a wheel. In order to achieve CHIM, you have to look at the Wheel on its side, where it forms not a wheel but a Tower. And you have to recognize the significance of that.This can happen in a flash of inspiration, or it could happen as a result of focused meditation, or anything really, but it's all based around that one critical moment where you realize everything, and then overcome yourself to avoid zero-summing.As for Tamriel: It might be special. It might not. There are theories that Akavir is a mirror of Tamriel, an inversion of it. But worrying about one continent is missing the point that ALL of it is Lorkhan's gift to You.So you can understand his greatest act of compassion (if it was compassion) and overcome his failure (for it surely was, regardless of his motives).The entirety of the Mundus, by the way, began at the Tower Ada-Mantia. I don't know whether this is also known by the name Direnni or not, I've not read near as much about the 0th Tower as I should have.
>>20577100That's the current ill-conceived plan. That is until the Redguards, Orcs, Nords and Bretons kick their chiseled jawlines back to the pussy willow islands.
>>20577098>A bunch of wizards with godlike power>in their island mushroom forests>they weren't the bestDoes not compute
>>20577116Edgy post, bro.
>>20577100No one knows.Of course the Thalmor are literally elf Nazis, so they might have no functional plan. Just like the nazis.
>>20577100I imagine in similar fashion to the Marukhati Selective when they tried to excise the Merish aspects of Akatosh - they have to change the myths that make up the Gods.So, erase Man from Talos, to erase Talos from Man, to erase Talos from Everything.But this is just me theorizing. I can't remember if they ever stated their actual plans, I just know that in order to kill Talos, they have to kill the concept of Man.
>>20577081>Are the Mer aligned to Anu?Not exactly, and it's not really all of the mer, it's just the Altmer. All of the Mer resent their mortality and resent being stuck in a "world of limitations" but only the Altmer actually want to destroy everything. The other mer have just sorta accepted their place in the world... as opposed to the human races who have actively embraced the world and think it's the coolest thing ever. I have no idea about the goals of the beast races though. So they are aligned in a sense, but they probably don't see it that way.If their plan to unmake creation actually got moving, they'd likely receive a lot of resistance from a bunch of the big Aedra, and likely several of the Daedra as well. The biggest aedra supporter of the "kill the universe" movement was Trinimac, and he's Malacath now. Most of the Daedra really like Mundus because it's a lot of fun, and if it was destroyed their lives would be a lot more boring.Of course, it'll never happen because if it does, they won't be able to make any more games.
>>20577127When you understand the intrinsic wisdom of this post >>20577116 and have therefore achieved CHIM you will understand.Hint: All they did was bone their sisterwifedaughterclones and accidentally unleash daedra in their tower basements. They were ineffective godlike wizards.
>>20577129How could that post POSSIBLY have upset you?
>>20577137Well, not all Mer hate the Convention. The Dunmer, for instance, fucking love that shit. Similarly, the Redguards have a very Mer-ish outlook.But in general, it's possible to split it that the Mer are Anuic and the Men are Padhomaic. Just remember nothing is ever that simple in practice.
>>20577157>nothing is ever that simple in practice.What about masturbation? That's pretty simple.
This is the best Elder Scrolls thread on 4chan ever. Why didn't I think of it /tg/ is the best place. Fuck /v/, and /vg/ is just a waifu fest with no regard to the lore or setting.
>>20577137The Khajiit are technically Elves as well, since they were made from Bosmer. But largely they're mostly interested in trade. They're pretty much lions, incredibly capable, but especially lazy and undriven unless specifically provoked. besides only about half their race are actually sentient. Argonians? Even they don't really know. The few who were born in Blackmarsh don't really seem too keen on talking about it, even despite the centuries of mostly peaceful interaction with Imperial humans. We know they've got sentient tree overlords and are largely immune to poison and disease. That's pretty much it.
>>20577137As far as I can tell the 8 were a stolen concept from the Khajiit, or, part of the concept was taken from the Khajiit, who themselves picked it up from elsewhere. (lol). Currently they're caught up in the Empire's politics and border wars, so I think they're a Confederacy again, if they ever really trully stopped. The Argonians... Well, they're Argonians.Anarchic Libertarians.
>>20577181But /tg/ is my primary board, my first board, and my home board.
>>20577157The Redguards are a little biased because they accidentally their home continent. Of course, with enough training and stuff, one lone Redguard could cut open the entire universe with his sword, or split an atom, or split an IDEA. So they take a bit of a different approach than the Nord-descended humans do.
>>20577187>everIt's not really different any different than usual. Although if you're used to /v/ quality I can see why it might seem that way.
>>20577205Well yeah, but even before then, Yoku mythology has more in common with Merish mythology than Man.To the extent that that's possible to discern. It's implied that the Redguards have an absolute clusterfuck of a religious canon. They have a god of We Have Too Many Gods, for chrissakes.captcha: esProjec discoveryRather apt, really.
>>20577196There are like fifty different races of Khajiit, though. The only ones we've ever seen ingame are the suthay-raht. They apparently have things ranging from "horrible little monkey" to "giant fucking sabertooth tiger." Is there really a consensus of beliefs across all their species, or are they as internally divided as they are diverse?
>>20577227I was under the impression that there were only four races, dependent on the phase of the mood. Two of which are the sentient ones, the Ones you see in Skyrim and Oblivion and the ones who walk on their toes in Morrowind.
>>20577119>achieving CHIM is generally referred to as seeing the TowerNo I understood that. What I meant is do we know how Vivec did it.>and then overcome yourself to avoid zero-summing.Is there any info on how long you have to ''regain your ego'' before you zerosum? Or is it instantaneous and you either zerosum or chim at that moment?>Tower Ada-Mantia. I don't know whether this is also known by the name Direnni or not, I've not read near as much about the 0th Tower as I should have.Yeah Direnni is Akatosh's spaceship. It was a dungeon in Daggerfall on the island of Balfiera but it's now taken to be one of the Towers. I'm not sure how far back the lore about the Towers goes in real life time but I think it came after Daggerfall.>>20577137>>20577157Alright. Thanks.
>>20577227They supposedly also have powerful magic users indistinguishable from housecats.This is simultaneously terrifying and perfectly logical.
>>20577205Are you serious about the split an idea thing? Because I never though that power levels in the Elder Scrolls got that crazy.
>>20577256The Pankratosword. One swing of the technique destroyed Yokuda.The entire continent.Now imagine a Sword Saint who goes beyond that. The Redguard's swordfighting techniques get -insane.-
>>20577256Elder Scrolls goes up to breaking the fourth wall, as the retcon of Cyrodiil from jungle to temperate forest and the change of the entire Empire itself from Roman Empire to a more generic fantasy kingdom is directly attributed to Talos.
>>20577256Really? CHIM is basically omnipotence.
>>20577227The Daggerfall ones aren't Suthay-Raht, are they?>Is there really a consensus of beliefs across all their speciesWell, we don't here much about any divergent culture, besides among slaves.>>20577240There are two moons, each with four relevant phases, for sixteen combinations and thus sixteen races.
>>20577245Vivec is the first NPC to directly allude to CHIM in person. Based on Conjecture from the fact that his power is different than the Tribunal and his books we can possibly assume that maybe he could have become one or be aware of it enough to conjecture that... tl;drWe guess so because it seems about right.
>>20577256Yep. The art has been lost (probably deliberately) but the simple threat of a mortal Redguard warrior doing it was enough to make Vivec turn and run away like a little girl. At the height of Vivec's power, before the Tribunal got cut off from the Heart.
>>20577245Oh, you mean how Vivec himself specifically did it, the actual series of events? Oops, I didn't realize, sorry to keep regurgitating stuff you already knew. We have no idea at what exact point Vehk achieved CHIM, or how it was that he came to his realization.The only safe bet is that he did it before he wrote the Sermons.
>>20577245>Is there any info on how long you have to ''regain your ego'' before you zerosum?No, but it seems to be implicitly instantaneous.
>>20577196The Khajiit aren't elves, they're descendants of other beast folk native to Tamriel, they've been dawdling about that continent since before man came to Skyrim. And the Aldmer came to Summerset.http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiithttp://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aldmer
>>20577281The Pocket Guide to the Empire specifically refers to some Khajiit as being elves with cat's tails.UESP is a great source for game info, but it's a bad source for lore. Use the Imperial Library instead.
>>20577278Mind you, Vivec is CHIM, so anything he does, even in defeat (such as being killed by Nerevar), is somewhat a result of him not needing to give a shit.
>>20577268I forgot the moon that orbits... the moon.Is there anything in this lore that isn't recursive?
>>20577293They appear visibly similar to elves, they're not actually elves themselves.
>>20577293Imperial Library, on the other hand, includes a lot of stuff of very dubious origin, so people will read it and think it's a fact. People talk about CHIM a lot, for instance, but that's not even confirmed to even be a thing. It might be a thing, or it might just be fanwank.The Trial of Vivec, for instance, people quote all the time, even though it was just an RP session on the forums, and it's directly counteracted by lore in Skyrim.
>>20577279>Oh, you mean how Vivec himself specifically did it, the actual series of events? Oops, I didn't realize, sorry to keep regurgitating stuff you already knew. No, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.>The only safe bet is that he did it before he wrote the Sermons.Gotcha.
>>20577313>The Trial of Vivec, for instance, people quote all the timeBecause Kirkbride was involved. And we base the lore more on what he says (being as he's the one who wrote it) and not on what the hacks Bethesda's employing now are doing to it.
>>20577313Yeah, the best source of lore is to actually read the books you find in-game. Does anyone know of a mod that adds all the books from previous games into Skyrim?My book trunk feels empty.
>>20577293Have you seen the Daggerfall Khajjhit? That's what they're referring to.
>>20577293The pocket guide to the empire isn't terribly accurate, I mean, it's written by imperials after all.That aside, Mer, Man, and Beast are all separate, and the Beasts themselves are more separate still, Imga, Argonian, Khajiit and Lilmothiit aren't related in any way.
>>20577313Some people have brought up that it's entirely possible that the Trial doesn't have anything to do with Azura, because she speaks in a broken syntax that she has never spoken in before or since.In which case it was a brilliant bit of theatrics by Vivec to let him ponce off for an era or two, while still going out with a bang.I still like to think that it was Azura, only he might not have banished her for very long (she was, after all, back and talking in Oblivion). But it's entirely possible it was all an artifice of Vehk's. Because he was bored or something.
>>20577268There's also the Mane, born on the eclipse, so seventeen races of Khajiit.
>>20577335>>20577333I think he is referring to the Khajiit from Arena/Daggerfall. They look like mer but they aren't mer or men.
>>20577337And it's annotated by an Altmer who was a Thalmor before being a Thalmor is cool. So you get two totally unreliable sources of disinformation fussing at each other. Still, that's part of what makes it fun.>>20577331I personally think that Kirkbride is overrated, but even the IL page says that it's only "semi-official" at best. Every good writer needs an even better editor, after all.
>>20577343I haven't really payed much Morrowind, is he still around during Skyrim? And what exactley happned that chased out the Dunmer from Morrowind?
>>20577363There is also the version anointed by a Redguard.
>>20577373I think they still take the "disappeared" stance.
>>20577337The thing that makes the PGE the basis on which everything builds is the fact that it also has the Altmer annotations.In any case, the Khajiit are -now- a beast race. I was never denying that they're a beast race, merely that they are also a mer by lineage to the group of Ehlnofey that also formed the Bosmer.But it's also possible that they aren't. I dislike that though, mostly because I like the Argonians being the unique "Major" race that isn't descended from the Ehlnofey. The Khajit as unique beings don't really have the same mystique the Argonians and the Hist have.But my bad for jumping in as hostile as I did. The Khajit may or may not be Mer.
>>20577361Seventeen species. Depending on the phase of the moon. Some look like mer with tails, other are unintelligent animals. Yes, that means the human looking ones give birth to the animal ones.
>>20577373Vivec is long gone even before Oblivion. It's possible that the Nerevarine is still alive though.Basically, a meteor struck southern Morrowind and destroyed it, and Red Mountain exploded and destroyed the rest. There's only a fairly small amount of livable land on the south (which is occupied by Argonians) and the west (which is occupied by Nords). And then there's the Telvanni, holed up in the last of their mushroom-towers hoping that nobody will notice them.Honestly it makes me kinda mad, the Dunmer get no breaks. I swear that the devs are intentionally pissing on Morrowind because they're mad that nothing they've done since has been anywhere near as cool. It doesn't make sense to fuck up their own lore on purpose, I know, but I can't think of any other explanation.
>>20577279Of course, the problem is that CHIM would let him rewrite history as he pleased, so he could have his Sermons exist before he actually wrote them in his own timeline.Anyway, Vivec got it by a slow process. He alluded to it with Molag Bal, who knew about the concept and gave him the word itself (in exchange for sex). When he actually clicked over to getting it is uncertain. It was after he wrote his sermons, thus before the Nerevarine prophecy was fulfilled, and before his Trial, after he became a god with the Heart of Lorkhan and possibly before Hjalti conquered Tamriel (a reference is made that Vivec has killed the Emperor and the Emperor has killed him, as I recall, but since they're gods/CHIMsters it didn't really bother them).And that's a really big time period for him to gain it in.
>>20577373Vivec is long gone by Skyrim. A shit-ton happened to Morrowind, including multiple invasions, the Red Mountain erupting, and the Ministry of Truth impacting. Vvardenfel is almost entirely uninhabitable now, just a couple ports remain. And the mainland, though less fucked, was still sacked and pillaged and was under ash for a while, presumably killing at least one year's crops.
>>20577331Everybody forgets that Ted Peterson was part of that. I was there when it happened, and people STILL just seem to remember MK rather than the others.
>>20577396It also implies the human looking ones have sex with the animal ones.
>>20577421Not in a Teen rated Bethesda game.
>>20577373Vehk is busy fucking around gods-know-where until at least the Fifth Era, if not forever.As for Morrowind? It got fucked. Hard.First Vivec disappears, so the Dunmer have to figure out a different way to keep Lie Rock in the air. They do this by throwing souls into a machine. It ends poorly, but first! Oblivion Crisis, they get fucked hardcore. Then, due to an accident with the soul-eating machine, Lie Rock falls. The impact triggers an eruption of Red Mountain.The Empire has basically fallen apart at this point, so the Nords and the Argonians take this as their cue to invade. The remaining holds of Dunmer have to deal with two hostile forces.And then Umbra the city is raised and floats across the island, killing everything in its wake on its path to the Imperial City.They got fucked, over and over again, with something rusty.
>>20577432The fetchers had it coming.
>>20577439Yeah, as cool as Morrowind may have been, it's a fucking shitty place full of shitty people that pretty much were asking for it.
>>20577439>>20577445Sounds like we have some lizard-lovers here.
>>20577432Didn't the Redquards also do a minor invasion where they went on basically a smash-and-grab for Dunmeri treasures?
>>20577457That was an awful low death total.
>>20577445So there's slavery. You don't call invading and occupying a people against their will slavery? The Empire isn't much better. You can't judge a whole species on the actions of tyrants, because if you went that way, you'd write off EVERY species. They all had their moments.
>>20577466>implying slavery is anywhere near the only shitty thing the Dunmer do
The Dunmer were not nice people, but nobody deserves the amount of ass-rape that they've received, especially considering what's happened to the rest of the races (basically nothing, except the Redguards). There HAS to be a meta reason for it.
>>20577485Like what? Eat scrib? Act wary towards outlanders who historically have invaded and controlled them their entire existence as a species?
>>20577466Not just the slavery, the politics, the people, hell even the landscape looked like it was the result of a long forgotten dump in a moist corner in a dank, dark room.
>>20577505Eat chokeweed and die.
>>20577495Careful, you'll bring out the conspiracy theorist guy earlier (who was me) that thinks the whole thing is a reference to the Jewish Diaspora.
But everyone in TES is a dick. I don't see the Dunmer as especially dickish.
>>20577495Vehk knew, and it was foreshadowed as early as the Sermons, that Vvardenfell was living on borrowed time."Later, and by that I mean much, much later, my reign will be seen as an act of the highest love, which is a return from the astral destiny and the marriages between. By that I mean the catastrophes, which will come from all five corners."The reason for the destruction of Vvardenfell is prophecy.
>>20577505There was that prick who made you strip for promotions.He wasn't a dunmer, but he belonged to a House if I recall correctly.
>>20577503Morrowind entered into the Empire by treaty with Tiber Septim. Among other things, the treaty allowed them to keep many aspects of their native culture (slavery, necromancy attitude, and so on).They weren't conquered, per se. Similarly to Hammerfell, they entered the Empire by treaty and, if they so desired, could theoretically leave it whenever they wanted.
>>20577495>There HAS to be a meta reason for it.Dunmer are popular, which makes them a good target for getting an emotional reaction from fans.
>>20577515Regardless of how much or how little merit that idea actually has, please don't. The thread will just devolve into /pol/, which is the last thing anyone wants.Keep it up with the delicious delicious lore.
>>20577526Sorry, meant to quote>>20577503
>>20577525Hell, even before this."'From my side of the family,' the first cousin said, 'I bring you a series of calamities that will bring about the end of the universe.''And from my side,' the second cousin said, 'I bring you all the primordial marriages that must happen within them, each one.'"
>>20577495>There HAS to be a meta reason for it.Yeah, Bethesda was butthurt that Morrowind fans vocally denounced the way Oblivion was made more generic and more console-oriented.
>>20577527Oh, so only their NEIGHBORS were invaded. Yeah, that's not threatening at all. We'll only kill you if you don't do what we say, and hey, you even get to keep SOME of your culture!How nice. Sounds like a non-choice to me.
>>20577439Indubitably.A word on the Pocket Guide to the Empire. It doesn't really look into the ancient heratiges of the various peoples so much as it's designed to be a Guide, go figure, to the current state of affairs, it offers a little bit of recent history but nothing terribly scholarly overall. Also, if one looks at Notes on Racial Phylogeny, you'll find that, to the best of the empire's knowledge, Khajiit aren't interfertile with any other race but their own. Were they related to elves, they'd be able to bear offspring with them. However, the Aldmer, didn't even come to present day Summerset, Valenwood, or Elswhere until well after the race had been established. The same with the Argonians, where were relatively unknown until the 2nd Era.
>>20577559They also have three living gods who are more than capable of beating off invasions. Almalexia fought off an Akaviri invasion (with some help from Wulfharth/Underking), for example. Or there was the time that one of them flooded Morrowind but let all the Dunmer breathe water. Everybody else died.
>>20577542Actually almsot all the writers talk about how they regret making Oblivion extremely generic and waving it off. Which is why they made skyrim so sytleized and true to the lore. Skyrim itelf was a prety generic place originally so it doesn't have the fantasitical landscape, but it's pretty much faithfule to Morrowind.
>>20577589They also began to lose power and hide it from their flock.
>>20577596Perhaps, lore wise they did "okay" though they're pretty much ripping off their earlier works, nothing really new happened lore wise, longer than a couple paragraphs here and there, and gameplay, crunch and actual substance was a nonfactor in that game. It was just another dime a dozen action game for money, Bethesda is dead, so what we're left with is the mod community and their old games.
>>20577598Didn't happen until almost the very end of the Second Era.
>>20577598Yeah, by the time Tiber Septim came knocking on their door, they'd already been cut off from the Heart for over a hundred years. They were still super-powerful at that point, but they didn't want to risk an all-out war against the Imperial Legions. The Legions at that point essentially had divine favor, and the Tribunal didn't want to get into a Clash of the Titans scenario if they didn't have access to their own power source. So they cut a deal.
>>20577612Now I don't want to be that guy, and post that copypaste we all know, but I certainly can say that perhaps Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are right there on the same level.In writing, in depth, in gameplay. Just because some people enjoy one game more than others doesn't make the other games shallow.Just different. To be honest, the primary reason why Morrowind looks deep, is because it's an alien as fuck environment.
>>20577620What? The Tribunal lost access to the Heart in 2E 882. Tiber was already busy conquering Tamriel by that point (he finally completed it in 896, by which point he had Numidium). Depending on whether you believe he conquered Morrowind before or after the First Pocket Guide was published (2E 864), the Tribunal would have most likely had full access to the Heart of Lorkhan when they made their deal with the Empire.
>>20577626Oblivion? Equal?Listen, I understanding wanting to foster understanding and harmony, but c'mon...It was so generically typical. They even washed out the roman bits, which were the only things the Imperials really had going for them. No, I'm sorry, this game isn't equal by a long shot.
>>20577639Remember when Cyrodiil was Roman Legion + Jungle? And the descriptions of the Imperial City?Yeah. They fucked that one up good.
>>20577626They're all fun games. But, Morrowind didn't make you the chosen one every time you walked into a guildhall, you actually had to work for progression, and they had requirements for you. I'm not going to go into a crunch argument about the games, because then I'll lose my will to play videogames for a week. But, for what they were, all the games were fun, some just had more substance than others.
>>20577626For me, it has to do with the amount of actual text in the game. Daggerfall and Morrowind have an absolutely immense amount of text in them, almost all of which is unvoiced of course. The ability to have everybody spew out a long and detailed explanation to every question you have gives an incredible amount of leeway with the depth of your game. When you add in all of the books and scrolls, you get even more depth, and you haven't even started on the quests yet.Oblivion and Skyrim, on the other hand, are limited not only by the size constraints of voiced dialog on the disk, but also the expense of recording all that dialog. So the amount of interrogation you can do is greatly limited, and the game becomes shallower as a result. The space can only be filled by quests or by books... but the quests and books were pretty much the same as in the previous games, there was no expansion there. So the games DID end up being shallower, simply from having everything voiced.I'm not going to get into which quests were better, because that's pretty much a personal thing. For me, however, Morrowind was my favorite, followed by Oblivion, which I actually really enjoyed even though it was substantially simpler. Daggerfall and Skyrim I consider to be mediocre.
>>20577626Uh, no. Arena isn't even comparable to any of the others, first of all. Leaving it aside, Morrowind clearly has the greatest depth of lore, and Oblivion the least, while Daggerfall has its own stuff which is worthwhile in its own ways and Skyrim has lots of good mechanics in terms of gameplay and crafting. Saying "hurr, they're all the same" is just as retarded when talking about games as it is when talking about people.
>>20577626I can accept Skyrim as good in its own right but not to my preference. But Oblivion? Oblivion is just so much worse than the rest.
>>20577672I never said they're all the same.Don't put words in my mouth.I said that they are more similar than people would like to think.
>>20577116That's surprisingly accurate.
>>20577639>>20577691That's just visuals over substance.If someone would import Crysis trees into Oblivion, would that improve your experience?
>>20577692>Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are right there on the same level. In writing, in depth, in gameplay.
>>20577704>are there on the same level.If I wanted to say they're all the same, kiddo, I'd say they're all the same kiddo.So quit putting words in my mouth kid. Take some lessons from the debate club.
>>20577700It's not just visuals.
>>20577709>Say they're on the same level>someone says "No, this one's better at this and this one's better at that">"stop putting words in my mouth"Really?
So hey, /tg/, I've been meaning to ask thisIs there ingame evidence specifically for the idea of reality being a dream that these god-brains are conjuring? Or is it just OOC knowledge to explain IC enlightenment or whatever?Is it even called CHIM ingame? It has been so fucking long since I played Morrowind
>>20577720Read the first few posts before you start whining.
>>20577700Hey bro, I liked Oblivion too. Other than the Fighters Guild, all of the quests were great, and the ability to make poisons and fight barehanded without automatically losing was nifty. And you got horse animations that were almost total clones of the Daggerfall ones, and Daggerfall-style fast travel (even though I liked silt striders). Yes, it was shallow on the lore front, but it was still strong on the story front. Honestly Morrowind had enough lore for two games at least. The complexity was decreased, but not SO decreased that I was pissed at it. The game's major flaws could be fixed relatively easily through mods.Skyrim, on the other hand, is too far removed from what I want in a game to really be enjoyable. I wouldn't call it "streamlining" so much as "a wholly different design philosophy." Loads of people love it, but my boat it does not rock. The magic system in particular irked me to death. It was uncustomizable rubbish and a waste of time all the way through... unless you had the right perks at which point it became utterly gamebreaking... like Morrowind Alchemy gamebreaking.
>>20577721I'm pretty sure the "god-brain" thing is discussed in game, but it's just written in books as something someone beleives to be true, it's not definitive.>Is it even called CHIM ingameYep, by Vivec.
>>20577721CHIM is half-canon, half-easter egg and half-explanation for how ingame characters react to the Player messing with his inventory/drinking twelve potions within one second/switching weapons and spells like fourteen times within one second.For example, Vivec doesn't levitate. He sits on a chair that lacks textures.
>>20577721CHIM as a term comes straight out of the Sermons, which were an in-game text in Morrowind. As for direct evidence of CHIM/acknowledgement? The closest you get is the Tiber Septim quote the priest of Talos in Skyrim quotes, about breathing in royalty, which is a reference to CHIM, or at least might be.The majority of the information about CHIM comes from outside of the games, via Michael Kirkbride's writing. Arguably, though, the fact that it's possible to piece together Dagoth Ur's anti-CHIM should at least lend some support to the idea that there is a CHIM, if he got it backwards.The Godhead is such a high-level metaphysical concept that the odds of it ever being acknowledged in a TES game are slim to none.
>>20577736The worst part about Skyrim's magic is it's right there next to a great new crafting system for weapons and armor.
>>20577700It lacked that certain edginess and grit in the game. You had all the cliches in there from the Fighter's Guild # 466 to the "Honerable Thieve's Guild."About the only thing that had any depth do it was the Dark Brotherhood and even then it was cartoonishly evil. Compare the thieve's guild in Skyrim verses the thieve's guild in Oblivion. Which is more interesting? A bunch of silly ethical burglars that don't try and hurt people or a lowly group of bastards who aren't above real thievery?
>>20577750Oh man, imagine Skyrim's weapon/armour system with Morrowind's magic spell creation.>"I AM THE INVISIBLE LEVITATING MAGE-WIZARD OF DOOM! PREPARE TO DIE!"
>>20577740Technically it's not from Vivec, it's from the Sermons. Most people either never read them or read one of them and go "WTF AM I READING" and move on, so it's super-easy to miss them.The Godhead though is never mentioned by anyone ever, at least not ingame.
>>20577759Well, they're all Imperials.And you know what they say.Doesn't matter how much magic goes around, white people are crazy.
>>20577770>Technically it's not from Vivec, it's from the Sermons.Uh, you know who wrote the Sermons don't you?
>>20577750 Oh man, imagine Skyrim's weapon/armour system with Morrowind's magic spell creation. >"I AM THE INVISIBLE LEVITATING MAGE-WARRIOR IN HEAVY ARMOUR OF DOOM! PREPARE TO DIE!"
>>20577774Obviously, retard. I was explaining the reason that nobody knows about it, because while EVERYONE talks to Vivec, NOBODY reads the sermons.
The godhead is the highest level of reality. It's above Anu and Padomay and those are already abstract concepts above the gods.
>>20577770Actually, I did some digging, and I think I did find some minor references to the Godhead." Above them all is the horizon where only one stands, though no one stands there yet. It is proof of the new. It is the promise of the wise. Unfold the whole and what you have is a star, which is not my domain, but not entirely outside my judgment. The grand design takes flight; it is transformed not only into a star but a hornet. The center cannot hold. It becomes devoid of lines and points. It becomes devoid of anything and so becomes a receptacle. This is its usefulness at the end. This is its promise."And..." They are dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the governance of the stars, dominated at the center by the sword, which is nothing without a victim to cleave unto. This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite."But it is safe to say that there will never be explicit mention of the Godhead, ever.
>>20577797What is there NOT to understand mate?The ultimate form of White People. Nicolas Cage.
>>20577783Wait a minute...Guys...Guys what if...Guys what if the reason the godhead is never explicitly mentioned, is because YOU are the godhead.Like, the player is the godhead.
>>20577806The player is the player. The godhead is your computer/Bethesda
>>20577791The first one I can see as a plausible possible reference, but I just can't see how the second one relates.
>>20577806If we want to go there, then I'd say the developers, not the player.
>>20577814The second one is a reference to Vivec. It's almost three in the morning, I just derped hard.
>>20577806Shouldn't the Godhead be the devs and modders?
>>20577814The first one seems to be talking more about the center of the wheel, creation, while the second one seems more like a reference to mantling.
>>2057780The player is the dreamer yes, that's the whole theory. The Elderscrolls are the game disks themselves. They can predict the future because they are the future and past entirely and at the same time the very fabric of the universe. You go crazy, see weird shit because it's machine code.
The godhead is everything so everything related to a TES game is the godhead. He's the developers, the code, the players, the save files and the manuals.The ending of the word is hurpederp.
>>20577823>The Elderscrolls are the game disks themselves. They can predict the future because they are the future and past entirely and at the same time the very fabric of the universe.TES: 6 confirmed for being scripted dog shit.
>>20577822The dealbreaker for me about the first one being the godhead is the "no one stands there yet." If it was the godhead, then something would HAVE to have been there from the beginning or else the universe wouldn't even exist. But isn't the center of the Wheel supposed to be the Adamantium Tower and/or Talos and/or Lorkhan?
>>20577747>>20577747The Sermons have CHIM as what Molag Bal told Vivec about. Mankar Camoran's Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes also described CHIM quite explicitly."CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King once jungled."Then Heimskr is quoting Many-Headed Talos (something Kirkbride threw up in the Bethesda Lore Forum back during Oblivion) in Skyrim.
>>20577836It could be referring to the time when TES was just the homebrew D&D campaign of the devs.
>>20577836It's a reference to the concept of Amaranth, the thing at the very end of the road, beyond CHIM and the other walking ways. The Godhead is fractious and schizophrenic - the one above all where no one stands is the Amaranth, the Godhead reborn in its own hallucination.The paragraph then does divert to talking about the Centre of the Wheel, but I felt it would be better to copy the whole passage than just the one sentence.
>>20577836The godhead is a sleeping, dreaming, may-as-well-be dead thing. It cannot perceive itself, and nor can it perceive its children.Reaching the "final stage" (Amaranth) means you have a new godhead which can perceive itself and its children, but also has children that can perceive it and themselves, who give birth to more children who can perceive themselves and the godhead, and so on and so forth.
>>20577843>Witness the home of the Red King once jungledTiber Septim and Cyrodiil right? Why is he called the Red King?
>>20577843Camoran is full of shit on a bunch of other topics though, so you can't just take everything as fact. He even calls Mundus the Daedric Realm of Lorkhan, which obviously can't be true unless they retconned about half of the existing lore. So the most plausible explanation is that he's just lying to the player. The Commentaries may similarly be full of lies.The Sermons are full of incorrect history and outright lies too, which makes digging through them for actual info that much more irritating.
>>20577861The color red is directly linked to the Shezzarine. Talos, the mantle of Lorkhan, was the Red King.
>>20577861Red Legions.The Imperial Legion.Also red dragons as his heralds (jewel in the crown of the Empire, they were).
>>20577866Weirdly, the Commentaries are bang-on.His speech is wrong because it was a rough draft that wasn't supposed to go in before editing, but Bethesda took it out of MK's hands before he was done, I think.
>>20577854>>20577855>AmaranthOh god. It goes deeper? Is this something that has yet to happen or does it happen every time the greater is recaptured in the smaller? For example did Auriel and Lorkhan do that Amaranth thing when they created a reality below that of Anu and Padomay?
>>20577891No. Amaranth is beyond CHIM. It's the state where the things you dream wake up and become dreamers themselves. Then they begin dreaming, and their dreams wake up, and so on and so forth. Onward forever throughout eternity.Nobody has reached it, or at least there's no evidence for Talos or Vivec (the two confirmed CHIMers) reaching it. If they had, "Tamriel and the Mundus would have been in their rearview mirror".
>>20577874Is he even working on the series anymore?
>>20577891Oh god. That sentence makes no goddamn sense to me. We're talking about The Elder Scrolls, right? The video games with the elves and the swords? We didn't cross over into a discussion on Hinduism or some similar real life religious philosophy, did we?Help me, /tg/, I'm scared.
>>20577891Jesus Craps!At this rate we're all going to reach enlightenment faster than all of Buddhism.
>>20577891Auriel and Lorkhan (well, Lorkhan, mostly) were creating the Mundus as a means to stop the continual downgrading of everything by Transcending."Lorkhan is the Spirit of Nirn, the god of all mortals. This does not mean all mortals necessarily like him or even know him. Most Elves hate him, thinking creation as that act which sundered them from the spirit realm. Most Humans revere him, or aspects of him, as the herald of existence. The creation of the Mortal Plane, the Mundus, Nirn, is a source of mental anguish to all living things; all souls know deep down they came originally from somewhere else, and that Nirn is a cruel and crucial step to what comes next. What is this next? Some wish to return to the original state, the spirit realm, and that Lorkhan is the Demon that hinders their way; to them Nirn is a prison, an illusion to escape. Others think that Lorkhan created the world as the testing ground for transcendence; to them the spirit realm was already a prison, that true escape is now finally possible."
>>20577891Amaranth is the Final Goal. It has never happened yet, but it is the conclusion of the Walking Ways. It's explicitly addressed in the Loveletter from the Fifth Era, which is up on the Imperial Library - you should go take a look.There is an ongoing theme whereby power in TES comes to you by way of love, and I think that's pretty handy to illustrate exactly how things work:CHIM is the love of self, and by extention love of the world, but it is fundamentally selfish - you are asserting your own identity in the face of the irrelevance of that fact.Amaranth is the love of a parent.
>>20577908He did a lot of contract work in Oblivion (over fifty in-game books, plus the stuff in Knights of the Nine). For Skyrim, well, I'll let the co-lead designer speak on that:"We all try not to take it to heart that only MK can save Skyrim from the trash heap - but I can say that even without directly writing any books, I'd say there's more of his influence on Skyrim than Oblivion. Probably a lot more - if you look at the chapter from the PGE on Skyrim, (pretty sure that was one of his - I can't remember any more who wrote which one, it's Bilbo and Strider all over again), and that chapter is the foundation for the whole setting. And if you look really hard, you might even find a painted cow. (No comment on flying whales.)"
>>20577904>No. Amaranth is beyond CHIM. It's the state where the things you dream wake up and become dreamers themselves. Then they begin dreaming, >and their dreams wake up, and so on and so forth. Onward forever throughout eternity.We're entering a weird place here, I think.
>>20577915This isn't just lore, this is the DEEP LORE.Kirkbride decided he wanted to make a ridiculously batshit crazy deep hidden lore underneath the regular lore, and then another even crazier deep lore underneath THAT one, and so on. There's at least three layers, and everything that he's written about it has been borderline gibberish, with the tiniest of extra-obscure vague hints about it. Most of the concrete info has come from the man himself talking about it, rather than people figuring it out, simply because it's so arcane.And then John was a zombie.
>>20577938Well, that trimmed down the original quote."To the close dreamers, don't forget the Amaranth. There *is* one step beyond CHIM, but you're right in that it is not godhood. It's the flowering of a statehood where the images you give birth to in your dream-- stolen (?) from first dreamer-- wakes up. Wails knowing free will. And begins to dream in the same way. Children of liberty without end, and then the music lives forever as a pirate radio tuned against the rules of Heaven and the vulgarities of Hell."
>>20577936So uh, did he leave on purpose, or did he get fired? And why?
>>20577959He's a huge jackass. I think that's the main reason.
420chan crew here.There's no need to be frightened /tg/. Just keep trucking on into the depths.As long as you're not schizophrenic, ther
So, am I right in assuming that Amaranth is the stage in which you become living creation itself, and give birth to descending planes of gods who create more planes into infinity?
>>20577915That's the beauty of it. They're games with fantasy weapons and sweetrolls and sophmoric jokes. And also there are books in the games with more text in them than some other rpgs have altogether and they reveal a backstory that's completely crazy. And they're 100% optional.
>>20577947The other thing is that, at least to me, it's implied that the Amaranth cannot be a solo effort. There are references to "they who do not fail," to the new men, to so many pluralities that it suggests to me at least that this final (incalculable) effort must be a feat that steps beyond the selfish isolated struggles of individual Ruling Kings.If Love is the point, then why could one person alone reach that final stage? It seems more likely to me that you can't leave anyone behind.But that might just be me interpreting it to fit my bias.
>>20577959He just moved on to a different gaming company. Bethesda brought him on for Redguard because they wanted to make the setting more different from cookie-cutter fantasy.I think it was Douglas Goodall who actually quit outright. Apparently he, Kirkbride and Todd Howard used to have huge arguments about the direction things were going. In the end, Todd's view won out, and we got Oblivion.
What if Amaranth is the modding community?
>>20577986Perhaps it's the transcendence of all man/mer/beast once they reach CHIM?
>>20577973I recognise the picture with >>20577855 from I think the official lore forum that Bethesda has on their website. It's a pretty good example. It's when you're the Amaranth, what you dream CHIMs out and also Amaranths out itself, and then what they do as their Amaranth (which is also you, because you're the one dreaming them just as they are also dreaming you) results in more CHIMers who also Amaranth, which are also all a part of you, and yeah, you see where this is going. It doesn't stop.
>>20577959He's abrasive, half-nuts, drinks like a fish and didn't get along with Todd Howard at all. IIRC it was fairly mutual because of the above and he didn't like what they were doing with Oblivion - and said so repeatedly at volume to Todd's face.
>>20578006That's the implication that I got. That you can't just go it alone and become the Amaranth - Lorkhan left everyone the tools, so you have to make everyone use them. Why else would he not simply succeed (when it was clearly an option to him) and become the Amaranth himself, without any need for this futzing about?
>>20577996It could be, but personally I find the fourth-wall-breaking solutions to things like the godhead and CHIM to be very... dirty. Like spaghetti code or holding an engine together with duct tape and string. They work, they make sense, but they lack all of the elegance of a well-constructed machine. I would vastly prefer them to have an in-universe explanation.
>>20577996I... I think I see the universe, /tg/.I feel the CHIM overtaking me. It is a good pain.
>>20577915Yes! Yes!!! This is what I've been waiting for!An actual meta-physical, enlightenment and magic conversation on /tg/ that is accepted and slowly understood by the posters therein.
>>20578025I think you put it better than I have, and I've mentioned my misgivings with the fourth wall theory several times. Props, sir.
>>20578019>drinks like a fishI don't think he only drinks like a fish.
Oh yes, my friend, it goes much deeper. As deep as you're willing to look. It's quite the mindfuck, especially when you start drawing parallels to the "real world". Ever wonder what Zen was all about, before the 60's hype? Khabbala before Madonna? Hinduism before the Beatles?
>>20578019>He's abrasive, half-nuts, drinks like a fish That sucks but at least his work is g...>and didn't get along with Todd Howard at allHe sounds like a great person.
>>20578019>>20577995Given the lacklustre feel that Oblivion had, I'd say he was right to disagree with Todd Howard, then.
>>20578025Personally, I'd say the fourth-wall explanations are easter-eggs to the ingame explanations.CHIM is as much about ingame magic, as it is about Vivec using the dev tools to turn the chair he's sitting on into an invisible chair by deleting the textures.You just don't notice that easter-egg, because most players won't open up Vivec in the dev tools.
Novice here. How do the Daedra and the Divines relate to all this godhead nonsense? How does Lorkhan play in?
>>20578047Todd Howard is actually a decent designer, but he's a godawful leader. Under his leadership we get stuff like blander Oblivion and Skyrim, and Fallout 3... but at the same time, when he actually made a MECHANIC for Fallout 3, it was the VATS system, which was pretty much the best thing about the entire game. He made VATS because the game didn't feel "Fallouty" enough. I think he would be fine if he was demoted.
What if Amaranth is all of our places within reality and our ability to create worlds with our imagination? What if we were the Amaranth all along?
>>20578066I'd say the primary reason why people hate him is because he makes really good games, but forgets to make them perfect.I mean, if some random Czech studio made Oblivion, we'd praise the shit out of it.
>>20578063The Daedra and Aedra (literally: "Not Ancestors" and "Our Ancestors" - or in the case of the Chimer, "Daedra" means "Stronger, Better Ancestors") happen to be et'Ada who either didn't contribute or did contribute to Convention (creation of Mundus), respectively. the Aedra are basically dead, since they sacrificed parts of themselves. The Daedra hold Mundus at arm's length, but not as far as the Magna-Ge living in Aetherius do.Lorkhan was one of the et'Ada. Neither Aedra nor Daedra, but... erm, well, Lorkhan.As to their relationship with CHIM, there's a mysterious quotation that "how else do you think Princes relate to the royalty of Ruling Kings?" (or something like that). They know of it, certainly (Molag Bal told Vivec about it), but they can't reach it. That's what the Mundus was for. A testing ground for Transcendence.Regardless, all the et'Ada are the result of the duality of Anu and Padomay (IS/IS NOT). Those go down to Anuiel and Sithis (Stasis and Change), and from there you get Aka and Lorkhan (and eventually the rest of them, but those first two are the most important).
>>20578066>I think he would be fine if he was demoted.This. He has great mechanical ideas, but he needs to be in a position where someone can slap him in his face and say "No Todd, that's fucking retarded. It's a bad idea, and you should feel bad." when he starts fucking up fluff and atmosphere.
>>20578085If some random czechs made Oblivion, we wouldn't have even heard of it.
>>20578063It's always seemed to me that the Divines don't really exist, they're just make believe gods like Christianity, more or less a subconscious placebo.Where as the Daedroth (Plural for Daedra.) physically exist, and have their own dimensions parallel to our own, that even seem to operate on our planes physical boundaries as well, as we're able to perceive them and enter them. You can invoke the gods themselves, and they'll dick around of their own accord whether or not anyone says anything or even thinks about them, but I wouldn't say they are gods, or perhaps they are the embodiment of the limitations of gods, and what is a "God" doesn't get more powerful than them.
>>20578036>>20578025I say the OOC explanations are bland if you take them as the deepest level of explanation. If there's only a correspondence between them and the IC explanations then I don't mind them. Just my opinion.>>20578063The Godhead is a higher level concept. If you read this book http://www.imperial-library.info/content/annotated-anuad it explains the relation between Anu and Padomay and the et'ada. Above those two directly is the Godhead.
>>20578099>implying there are men capable of telling Todd Howard that his ideas suck - in his face
>>20578099and then I saw Chim.
>>20578105The Earthbones do exist - if they didn't, we wouldn't have the Mundus. Beyond that, their wills are intact even if they are, by and large, dead, and they do interact directly with the mortal world. Kynareth in particular has had a hand in a lot of things. I'm fairly certain the Way of the Voice is a gift from her.
>>20578105>Divines don't exist Dude, end of Oblivion had Akatosh fighting Mehrunes Dagon.
>>20578105I was under the impression that the 'gods' are basically the fundamental forces of the universe. You have some minor god off somewhere being gravity, You've got old akatosh being time, arkay being beginings and endings - all that good stuff.
>>20578105The Divines (and the rest of the Aedra) very much DO exist, though. Akatosh is Time, for instance, and so on. The reason that they don't show up very often is that they're MORTAL. As in, you can kill them if you try hard enough. The Daedra don't have that problem, so they don't have any issues with showing up (or pieces of them) and wrecking the place for fun. They aren't as strong, either, because they had to give up a lot of themselves to create the world, but they're still strong enough when they need to be (e.g. Martin's transformation). You even meet several of them when you do Imperial Cult quests in Morrowind. They just don't have as active a hand in the world as the Daedra do because they're busy keeping the world together.
>>20578128AH.See, I've read some of the creation myths that involve them, the less dogmatic ones anyway. But by and large I stay out of the churches of the 9, and toss their books aside, mostly because I find Withershins more interesting.
>>20578105>It's always seemed to me that the Divines don't really exist, they're just make believe gods like Christianity, more or less a subconscious placebo.Nope, they exist and interfere regularly. It's just that they usually take the classical "I'm not doing SHIT in the mortal world unless someone wants a cold sore cured or something big is happening; I have better things to do" attitude.
>>20578139The Aedra are directly influenced by the beliefs of mortals. The Aedra have been referred to a "corpse-crystals" (read: earth bones) through which thought and belief filter through to create the gods you see in the games.In other words: I think Kynareth is a dragon. Enough people believe that too. Thus, Kynareth is a dragon.
Hey, anybody want to see a video of a really drunk MK wearing a creepy mask and blabbing about lore to some chick on a video chat?
>>20578169That was actually Lady Nerevar, his significant other.But that video is great, post the link. It also might open some eyes as to what the Reman Dynasty actually is, at least the other session they posted a transcript of underneath.
>>20578169...Do you even have to ask?
>>20578169>pic related>what happens when you don't
I don't know. Maybe I should share the lost "fireside chat 2" video. You guys might spread that shit around. MK is probably embarrassed about it enough as it is.
Alright you guys, alright, I'll share it. You gotta promise to keep it under your hat though. Lemme go find the link.
>>20578180Lost? It's... literally, right there. Also, I am possibly ninja'ing you, but the crowds are going to tear someone apart if the stalling continues.http://www.imperial-library.info/content/fireside-chats?page=1
>>20578169Did Boethiah shit out Malacath?
>>20578187Ohay, the video has been set to private. It wasn't like that last time I was there. Balls.Read the Reman transcript though. I want to see your reaction faces.
>>20578187Naw, try to click on it and see, it's set to private. I'm not jerking you here, I'm trying to find where I stuffed the link on here. I have the video too, I guess I can upload it to Youtube,
>>20578163>>20578153>>20578139>>20578132>>20578128okay, I get it now, but... At the same time they're Discworld gods, and other times it feels like (to me) they're just personified names for the forces of nature. Like in the big creation story for Nrin, mana could just as easily be cosmic radiation and the mutled existence of it all could be the plane(t) just forming.It's not so much that I don't get it, that I've just passed that part of the story entirely, since unlike Daedra, I don't see them walking around breaking shit and making deals, and they've never talked to me.I'm just going to go back to my sand hut now, and eat sweet meats...Captcha: Edward qrediTu?
>>20578196Why is there no transcript for the second one?
Fucking hell. I'm uploading right now and it says it's going to take an hour. Sorry, the link I had to an already open version is dead.
>>20578139>>20578153>>20578163>>20578199They're corpse-gods. Hold up a curtain and shine a light, and you see the silhouette of the dead god. It changes slightly depending on how you look at it, and as the curtain ripples, it "moves" in that sense.Their essence lives on (Kynareth is the breath, Dibella the sex, Mara the compassion, and so on), but they aren't really alive. Martin turned himself into an avatar of Akatosh/embodiment of Akatosh by merging with all the Dragonborn souls in the Amulet of Kings (which itself is a giant soulgem filled with the souls of all past emperors, and what maintains the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion through White-Gold Tower).
>>20577700I saw a mudcrab the other day.Horrible creatures.Indeed.Good dayStop Taalking!
>>20578199If you've ever talked to Wulf, John Hawker, or Ama Nin, all of whom can be met during Imperial Cult quests in Morrowind, then you've spoken with Talos, Zenithar, and Mara respectively. I'm pretty sure Kynareth talks to you directly in the Knights of the Nine questline in Oblivion, too.
>>20578216Well, the first transcript was provided because there was no video. There was no need for a transcript of the second.It would appear that MK was also not exactly that happy about the second video, since it's been set private, so there being a transcript would be kind of missing the point of burying it.
>>20577776>I can't hear you over my constant effect noise enchantment>No really I can't hear shit>Why did I think this was a good idea?
>>20578247It wasn't really ABOUT anything anyway, the only piece if information to take away was that they considered making the Dunmer Elizabethan at first, with a focus on court intrigue.Other than that he says he's writing a new story about Cyrus and then Lady N reads a pretty poem in Yokudan speech. That's about it.It's pretty embarrassing for MK. He's so drunk he can hardly stay on topic.
>>20578269Ahh. I'd never watched it much past the Yokuda recital, so I didn't really get to see him meandering all over the place.
>>20578237The Prophet is Talos, too.
>>20578264I had a character with like 280 points worth of Sanctuary from constant effect enchantments one time. The game was so hilariously easy because absolutely nothing could hit me ever.>fight Gaenor>he hits me every fucking time>nobody's successfully hit me once in like 40 levels>is this what pain feels like? I'd forgotten...>die horribly
>>20578289Doesn't he have something like 700+ Luck? Stupid little Bosmer.
>>20578187Why hasn't anyone hired him to do more stuff? The man is a drunken, raving loon but by god he writes some damn good mythology.
someone needs to archive this page, it isn't often that we reach true enlightenment.
>>20578300He was on contract with another company a few months ago. Not sure what happened.
>>20578300Because he's a drunken raving loon and mythology doesn't sell games.
>>20578300Maybe he writes such good mythology because he's a drunken raving loon?
>>20578105>Where as the Daedroth (Plural for Daedra.) Daedroth is singular.
>>20578196>RemanI don't get it.
>>20578307And only refers to Daedroth, anyway.Daedra is the correct term for Daedra of any number. Daedroth only refers to one kind. Daedric Prince is the proper term for the rulers of the sixteen princedoms.
>>20578306Well, other developers for Morrowind said that the Sermons were Kirkbride with a whole lot of coffee after a bar session nearby, working non-stop from sundown to sunup. Or something.
>>20578302Doing shit work for iphone game company. Poor guy, he wasn't meant for this world. His genius wasn't meant for the likes of Bethesda.In another life he could have been a spiritual leader.
>Now he’s Caligula. But not like weak tee-hee Caligula. He’s still got the Alexander shit going on. You can notice that in the outline. I think in the cut part of the 3rd edition Pocket Guide to the Empire, where the Daedric lords were talked about, it was mentioned that Sanguine frequented Reman’s court. Later he was like “I’m out, man.” [Attempt at a groan sound of Sanguine’s for effect] Reman out-Daedra’d the Daedra. Ahaha oh wow, how did I miss that?
>>20578309Reman Cyrodiil was the founder of the Reman dynasty and the first Emperor to actually have the Amulet of Kings in a few generations because the Empire descended into mindless hedonism.Which, amusingly, is exactly what Reman himself did, only worse. Read the transcript of Video 1, trust me.
>>20578312>>20578307got it backwards *shrugs*, I knew the difference at one point or another.
>>20578322>cut partWELP, I'm an idiot.
Well it appears we've started autosaging. New thread, anyone?
If I was filthy rich I'd hire him to write the fluff of an rpg for me.
>>20578341Nah, let's ride this one out for at least a while longer.
So! Bonelords! If there's a bonelord of Nerevar in Necrom why don't people ask it what happened during the war?
Wait... how does the afterlife work in TES?I get there are a lot of ghosts... but like... what is supposed to happen to people when they die?
>>20578312Daedroth is the singular form of Daedra.As in "Five Golden Saints are a group of Daedra; This one Golden Saint is a Daedroth."It's also used to refer to a specific species of Daedra.
>>20578365Everybody goes into the Dreamsleeve. There, the memories and identity of the individual are washed away, the soul is turned back into primordial soulstuff, and then it's spat out the other end into a new body (which could be anything - man, mer, beast, animal, whatever).If you promise your soul to a Daedric Prince, it goes to them instead of the Dreamsleeve.Nobody knows just what the fuck Sovngarde is. I've heard theories that it's just what you expect to see in the Dreamsleeve ("you're told you're going to Sovngarde, and so when you go your mind impresses the concept of Sovngarde on the Dreamsleeve").
>>20578365When a mortal dies, usually their soul goes to the Dreamsleeve, where it lives out its conception of the afterlife as its mortal memories are bled from it, and it is ready to re-enter the world pure and free of recollection.This has gotten a tad complicated as of late given the revelation that Sovngarde is a real place, not simply one of many possible visions of the Dreamsleeve. So some souls go to Sovngarde instead, to feast and fight with Shor forever (or at least until the end of the kalpa).
>>20578383If its all made of the same stuff how come you need a black gem to hold a mortal's soul?
>>20578393Because by then it's been recycled into the generic ooze.
>>20578365They are claimed by the aedra or daedra they align themselves to, or in the case of honorable Nords, Sovengrad which is also a real of Talos. There are other possible afterlives. Whis is why the whole Aldmeri kill talos thing is bullshit since their spirits are effectively immortal. The exception being soul trapped souls in black soul gems, but I'm not going to spoiler Dawnguard for anyone.
>>20578393If you're soultrapped you still have your identity and everything that makes you different.
>>20578393Maybe a mortal soul is just too big for a regular soul gem and if you break a mortal soul up into "soulstuff" you can make like 10 bear souls out of that.
>>20578404Why would Sovngarde be a realm of Talos? He isn't there or in any way associated with it except that he filled Lorkhan's spot. Shor isn't there either, or Wulfharth (although being dead on both counts, this is understandable).
>>20578313Kirkbride himself said that. He said it as though this were a glorious thing.
>>20578420The man is like Hunter S. Thompson; he drugs and drinks himself into a literary frenzy of bugfuck-crazy ideas and then brags about his methods when he's done.
>>20578416Shor wasn't there when you came calling, but Shor still dwells in Sovngarde. Not Talos or Lorkhan or Shezzar, Shor specifically.This is because of the power of mythopoeia - Sovngarde to the Nords is the final resting place of great heroes, and who is a greater hero than Shor?
>>20578440Shor was there.The heroes were forbidden to do anything against Alduin until Shor said otherwise. Then you showed up and told them to help. And they helped you.
>>20578457Well yes. I mean the excuse given to you was that "Shor is out." Because if he was there, he would've blinded you.But being that you were a very clear Shezzarine at this point, you being Shor (or an aspect thereof) (or a brother-concept) and speaking with his authority is pretty self-evident.But for those who don't read up on the mantling process or know about mythopoeia, Shor was indeed out.Disclaimer: I base all this on hearsay. I've yet to actually finish the main storyline.
>>20578440Shor's soul is wandering around as Wulfharth or whatever Shezzarine it's acting as this week.Shor's body is the two moons up in the sky.Shor's heart was under Red Mountain, before the Nerevarine sent it somewhere else in the Mundus.Shor most certainly does not live in Sovngarde, unless he recently pulled himself back together from being somewhat dead.
>>20578468You're mixing up Lorkhan and Shor now. They're not the same thing, except that (when) they are.Lorkhan is the missing dead god. Shor is an aspect, a myth-fragment of the missing dead god that exists in Sovngarde with the Nord heroes.If it weren't impossible for Lorkhan the original to do anything other than be dead as a sack of bricks, you could get the two together to have a conversation and some tea. You still can go get Talos.It isn't as simple as a Shor = Lorkhan = Shezzar = Talos equation. They both are and are not the same thing, at the same time.
It's kind of funny; overall I found the writing to be much better in Oblivion than in Skyrim but in terms of lore Skyrim was way better than Oblivion.
>>20578467>>20578493Wrong guy you're replying to. They don't say Shor isn't there, only that you can't see him in his high seat, which I always go and sit on immediately afterward, for the lulz. Unless I'm forgetting their exact words because I haven't finished the MQ in a while, they don't say he's absent, only that you can't see him. You DO get to see Tsun (the Nordic Zenithar).
>>20578498That's because Imperials learn grammar and spelling during primary school.In Skyrim, there is no primary school.
>>20578538That reminds me of the fictional-racism shitstorm that took over 4chan like the moment Skyrim was released.>DUNMER SUPERIOR>FUCK OFF SCUM, SKYRIM FOR THE NORDS>IMPERIALS UP IN THIS SHIT, ALTMER GO HOME>NORDS ARE DESTROYING MANKIND>KILL ALL MER
>>20578493>>20578526Something else that I forgot to add, Shor's heart is actually acknowledged as the same as Lorkhan's heart in Five Songs of King Wulfharth:"Then in walked the Devil of Dagoth, who swore he came in peace. Moreover, he told the Nords a wondrous thing: he knew where the Heart of Shor was! Long ago the Chief of the Gods had been killed by Elven giants, and they ripped out Shor's Heart and used it as a standard to strike fear into the Nords. This worked until Ysgramor Shouted Some Sense and the Nords fought back again. Knowing that they were going to lose eventually, the Elven giants hid the Heart of Shor so that the Nords might never have their God back."They're not completely different.
>>20578568But isn't that what mantling is all about?People that are eachother, yet are distinct persons?I guess TES makes more sense on 12 tabs of acid.
>>20578568The missing heart is always going to be an important part of Shezzarine mythology. I was never arguing that they are wholly separate deities. They are the same thing, except when they aren't, except when they are. It's complicated - it's the same way you have Alduin talking to Aka-Tusk, despite both of them being The Dragon God of Time.The deities are schizophrenic and fractious, none more so than the gets of Anu and Padhome. Lorkhan is a dead god sleeping as a pair of moons. Shor is a Nord hero who dwells in Sovngarde with his warriors. They're the same individual, at the same time.It's not a binary thing, is all I'm saying. It isn't "Shor is Lorkhan" or "Shor isn't Lorkhan." It's both.
Kind of makes me thinks of the Christian Trinity.One god is three distinct entities. (Father is the Spirit is the Son.)Or in this case considerable more.Lorkhan is Shor is Talos is Ysgramor is the Dragon-Born is whatever. All individual people also.
>>20578589>>20578595>>20578568Missing a heart is just something that all the bits of Lorkhan/Shor/whatever you want to call him share. The Heart of the World and its part in Convention is a pretty big thing for the Mundus, so it makes sense that all the facets of the guy share that quality in one way or another. Just like how Shor is dead and only has a ghost/soul (Wulfharth).
>>20578613Technically, God is everything, in the more esoterical gnostic-ish philosophical christiand subgroups.Same deal in Hinduism. Brahman is everything.
>>20578560Yeah, that was fun. I liked to imagine my character hating a good portion of Skyrim; fuck the Nords for invading Morrowind, fuck the Imperials and everyone in the Empire for leaving Morrowind twisting in the wind, fuck the Altmer for being world-destroying elitist pricks and fuck Argonians because fuck Argonians. It was great because no matter which route I chose I ended up killing a race I hated anyway.
>>20578623>Shor is deadWell, yeah, but Talos is basically a replacement, forged in the empire out of genuine Shezzarines folded up to a million times.
>>20578624Right, but that's getting back into CHIM right?
>>20578625>play Redguard>I just wanna go hoooooooooooooooome! Oh wait, Imma kill that Thalmor fuckass!
Well, it's been fun gents, and you kept me up several hours longer than I intended, but I'm going to have to head on my way now.It was fun though. Thanks for a fun night spent talking about crazy lore. Be well, /tg/.
>>20578625Too bad there were so few Argonians to murder.
>>20578636My second-favorite race after the Dunmer; fuck yeah imperialism and a martial culture done right.>>20578682Peace be upon thee.And on that note, I'm out as well. This has been the best TES lore thread I've seen in months on any board; it was an honor and my pleasure to participate.
Do you think it is possible to include CHIM as a pseudo mechanic in an RPG?I am imagining running a game in Tameriel, where the players have certain things handwaved so they can fulfil their prophecies, and as they become stronger so does the handwaveyness, or strange things like invisible chairs become apparent to them...
>>20578796Mantling seems more rpg appropriate. If they achieved CHIM they'd get to be DM and the process is so obscure that there isn't any way to rp it.
So I am thinking of a Mantling campaign, the re-rise of the tribunal :) or whatever deities they best start representing as they continue through to the end of the game...
You guys are making me want to go and actually play Morrowind. Skyrim has been fun, but... this shit is *amazing*.
>>20581554I want to, as well, but I need to learn how to mod it first so it's actually playable.
>>20581756I'm sure plenty of these mods are already up and/or out already. As for learning how to mod, just derp around, explore the files system, see where graphics, sounds, text, etc. is stored. Don't modify it yet, but just familiarize yourself with how things are organized. That'd be the first step. Such is my advice, anyway.
>>20582191Thank you kindly, fellow elegan/tg/entlman.
Morrwind playable, and graphically more advanced than both Oblivion and Skyrim combined. (Oblivion had higher graphics than Skyrim in truth.)http://www.moddb.com/mods/morrowind-overhaul-sounds-graphics/downloads/morrowind-overhaul-sounds-graphics