Character advancement is free-form, with XP investment improving skills and attributes. Virtues are extremely difficult to improve, and shouldn't change much over the course of a typical game. Techniques range from new combat moves (such as the jump attack and sword beam) to unique racial talents (zora creating an electrical field) and passive abilities (being able to walk across shifting sand unhindered.) Most techniques have a skill or attribute prerequisite before they can be purchased. Certain races may recieve XP discounts or lower prerequisites for certain techniques.

Core races consist of Deku Scrub, Goron, Kokiri, Rito, Zora, Hylian, Gerudo and Sheikah, with more under discussion. Each race gets a couple nifty abilities (eg, Gorons can roll into a ball and roll around, Zora can breathe underwater, and so forth). Humans (which include Hylians, Gerudo and Sheikah) instead get a +1 to the Virtue of their choice (though this can't be applied to put any Virtue over the usual starting limit of 4), and get discounts on certain techniques associated with their race. No other races get any bonuses to Virtues. Each race also has a Mass score, which affects movement speed, getting knocked/pushed around, use of the hookshot/clawshot, and so forth.

Damage is measured in hearts, and can be dealt in fractions of up to 1/4 heart. Your character has hearts equal to 2 + Physical, making the minimum number of hearts 3. Hearts can be increased by increasing your Physical value, and by obtaining Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers, which will be distributed as rewards for beating bosses and tough puzzles and the like.

Magic spells and items use Magic Power (with a basic attack spell using 2MP.) The Magic Meter is divided into blocks, each with 6MP. Starting MP is equal to 6 x your Mental value, or one block per Mental. Additional blocks can be aquired by improving your mental score and as rewards (like Heart Containers)

Some current issues that need working on to kick off the thread:

>Techniques
We need to put together a solid list to make the game playable. This includes XP costs, which leads me to our next point...

>XP awards
The following system was proposed in the last thread:
>1 XP just for showing up to the session
>1 XP for generally making steady progress in a session
>1 XP each for smaller milestones (beating a miniboss, figuring out a major puzzle in a dungeon, completing a minor sidequest)
>2 XP each for major milestones (beating a dungeon boss, completing a big sidequest)
>1 XP for each instance of particularly good RP, creative problem-solving, etc.

>Thus, you'll typically get no less than 2 XP per session, and more likely somewhere in the 3-5 range, and you don't need to keep track of every little thing. Low-cost techniques would be 2 or maybe even just 1 XP, with the most advanced techniques being closer to 10. Skill ranks could probably use the same system currently on the wiki, just doubling the costs. Attributes would cost 3x the next rank, and Virtues cost 5x the next rank.

Can we agree to this, or should we work out something else? Discuss.

>Monster stats
We've got a good start, but the bestiary is far from complete.

11 threads down, and still going strong. Let's get shit done!

Have we statted Majora's Mask yet?

>>15290438
The mask itself? No. In fact, beyond basic weapons and a handful of spells, very few items have been statted. That's also something that needs working on.

>>15290438
We'll hold off on big, campaign ending bosses until the very end.

>>15290527
Added Majora to the list of Immortal threats.

>>15290257
that XP award system looks solid to me. The intention is that players will pick up a new technique or skill level every session right?

>>15290704
For low-ranking techniques and skill levels, yes. Higher skill ranks and more advanced techniques might take a session or two to save up for.

>>15290646
Majora's Mask, Majora's Wrath/Incarnation should be treated differently. The last two are what happens when the Mask gets enough power, while the first makes an ordinary character into what's effectively a demigod BBEG.

Okay, plot hooks, anyone? There's the old "hired to defend the kingdom", "searching for artifacts", and such...

>>15290849
Plot hooks aren't something we really need to worry about. That's for the DM to create and not something the game needs to provide. Besides, these things naturally appear. Literally any of the dozens of typical tropes will do to kick off an adventure.
-Village burned down by raiding army
-It is your destiny to save the world
-Stranger dies and leaves you his quest
-You set out and find the world is a lot bigger than you knew
-You seek fame and fortune
-Conscripted
-Villager kidnapped

And so on and so on ad nauseum...

>>15290849
Haven't posted in these before, but...
Travel to the Golden Land.
Help a Witch or Hedge Wizard get a rare and exotic ingredient that only grows in a distant and faraway land.
Find or rescue missing important person.
Pilgrimage to a Great Fairy Fountain.
Something is causing the dead to rise in the local graveyard, fight Stalfos and Poes on the way to stop it at the source.
Salmon haven't come upstream to spawn in Lake Hylia this year. The Zora are starving.
Dodongos have migrated to Deku Forest. Fire everywhere.
Ganondorf is dead. Gerudo seeking strong, sensitive Hylians to prevent extinction.
Goron chief commissions giant statue of himself, needs escort for world-famous sculptor.

Now I want to play in an IRC game. Don't we have enough material for a basic playtest by now?

>>15291339
Well, here is a look at what you need to play a game and what the status is of each:

>Starting Character Stats
--This aspect is mostly done, though still tentative. One thing we haven't discussed is starting equipment though.

>Character Advancement
--This one is still only about half way done but not too important to get started immediately.

>Enemies and Combat mechanics
--This one is pretty solid as most of the main things have been worked out. The exception is magic, so there will be little chance for anyone to play a magic-based character.

>Dungeons
--This one is up to you. At some point we should talk about good dungeon design in the wiki and give a few sample original dugeons.

>Puzzles
--Again, like dungeons, this one currently falls to you. Prep time will be very large for most sessions without streamlined design tools. We should look into this. Also, some of the out-of-combat skills have yet to be fully developed though the ones included should cover most circumstances.

>Treasure
--This is the big one. We don't have our magic items defined yet at all. However, you could easily just wing it and pull any items you please from your own knowledge of the Zelda games or create your own appropriate to the dungeon.

>Bosses
--This one also falls to you unless you want to steal some classic ones. Eventually we will have some of the classic ones stated out and give a good guide for designing memorable and challenging boss encounters.

Just about everything else is really up to you and your own creativity. the framework is mostly there. Just a few things need to be patched up and then everything will need a LOT of playtesting.

>>15291496
good rundown

like you said a lot of the things like boss and puzzle design are up to the individual GM to do. When we bundle this into a pdf we should include a sample dungeon or two, but if we're going to be playtesting then someone is going to need to make one anyway so its not really a concern right now. The enemies need more fleshing out, since we only have a handful actually statted out, but that can wait too.

Starting equipment and magic need immediate attention though, since without them there cant really be any play-testing. Suggestions on that front?

>>15291496
Hello there, chaps. First time posting, but I'm loving everything. I do have a suggestion for equipment though. Not certain it is a great idea, but you could have several "kits" of gear that don't neccessarily assign classes to startin characters, but do give a sense of role.

Warrior gets a one-handed weapon, medium armor, and shield.
Rogue gets one-handed weapons and light armor.
Berserker gets a two-handed weapon and light armor.
Healers and Mages get a basic staff, a single spell, and robes.

One thing that does seem standard with most Zelda games is that ranged weapons aren't standard but must be found in dungeons.

>>15291933
giving starting kits pigeon-holes characters into specific roles. One of the main concerns in design so far has been trying to maintain character creation's classless nature. Starting packages would be convenient, but too standardized.

>>15291933
Warriors should have the option to switch the shield and weapon out for a two handed weapon. Kind of like the pikes town guards get as standard. Also, why the two-handed weapon for Rogues?

>>15291933
Oops, meant two one-handed weapons for rogues. And yea, swap sword and board for a two-hander sounds good. Maybe have two or so options for five or so kits?

And again, not perfect. I'm aware it gives some form of structure to a class-less system, but it is only a starting point and as of so far, most talk does involve the classic ideas of a deku rogue, a rito ranger, gorin warrior, etc.

>>15291933
This doesn't give the option of a spell blade or a magic shield defender.

Should be, you start with X rupees and can buy your own starting package at full market price. (Should hylians get bonus rupees?)

propose this instead of starting packages:
1 weapon of player's choosing
1 suit of cheap armor or clothing
1 additional item which could be a tool like a boomerang, a shield, or could be given up to have a better suit of armor.

>>15292066
Suggested starting equipment:

Warrior gets a one-handed weapon and shield/two handed weapon and medium armor.
Rogue gets one-handed weapon and light armor.
Berserker gets a two-handed weapon and light armor.
Healers and Mages get a basic staff, a single spell, and robes.

Maybe give Healers a trinket like an empty bottle/potion to start with? More fluffy and makes them valued? Rogues get an instrument?

>>15292092
i was thinking about that, but we'd have to settle on equipment prices to do that which is a whole new headache

>>15292101
But there should be a suggested started equipment list as well. GMs and players can decide which option to go with, if any.

>>15292104
Stealthy characters shouldn't be pigeon-holed into duel-wielding, wizards shouldn't be forced to use staves and link-like adventurers should not be forced to gravitate toward sword-and-board fighting. This business about starting kits based on role is a really bad idea, and it ruins so much of the feel we've built so far.

>>15292118
what about giving each character 3 pieces of equipment at start chosen from a specific list?

>>15292142
Did you read it? Suggested. One handed weapon. Sword and weapon OR two handed weapon.

There is absolutely nothing making anyone start with it. Just a fluffy option.

That said, >>15292165 and >>15292104 with the total worth of the equipment coming out of a universal amount of starting rupees would probably work best.

giving starting equipment out of a rupee pool has a few problems associated with it. First the fact that we'd have to actually come up with prices for all of the items, which would be a long chore full of fighting and bitching. Second the fact that buying equipment isn't a big theme of the games, most of the stuff link has he finds in dungeons or gets from someone else.

Maybe we should just keep both possibilities open and move on to something that won't end up in a two-sided battle? Maybe back to exp costs for techiques, now that we have experience pretty much done?

Link's Link. The PCs aren't. They're adventurers/heroes/town guards/NPCs. The people with standard dialogue or quests who die off-screen and wait to be saved. This is them being badass for once, going out on their own quest. They're not the chosen of goddesses or Heroes. They'd have lives and possessions beyond a forest tunic and a wooden ocarina.

I say list of items, let them pick 3, a suit of clothing, money purse and 3d6 ruppees

>>15292506
I like the idea of characters starting with only a fewer items. Clothes and a weapon, along with some leftover cash seems adequate. Perhaps a magic-using character knows one simple attack spell, and maybe even one alternate spell.

Characters should be finding new and useful equipment throughout their campaign, so it's better to start them out with only a few items than with too many.

>>15292506
sounds good to me

>>15292458
which is why i'd give them 3 items to represent the items they have on hand and a certain amount of ruppees to represent the disposable income that they can afford to blow adventuring rather than on maintaining the farm or feeding their families.

>>15292758
aren't spells going to be treated as techniques?

>>15292758
Why not clothes, a weapon, and an item? Enough for some interesting options while not too much. A healer might have a hand weapon and a bottled potion, while a town guard would have a pike/sword and shield.

>>15292847
I like the idea of keeping it more general instead of making them choose one from each category. That way characters that won't need clothes (like some gorons, zora and deku scrubs) don't get shafted.

>>15292866
So two items, a weapon, and normal clothes? (the last is useless for sale)

>>15290257
I really like this XP award system. That way you could get 2 XP if you spend the whole session derping around doing nothing and no more than 10 if the party is unbelievably productive.

>>15292798
Spells would be tied to items, like the Fire Rod, Quake Medallion, and the crystals for Ocarina of Time's spells.

>>15292847
I like this idea. A potion and an empty bottle seems like a fun starting item anyway.

>>15292914
so most spells would be a Melee/Mental/ either Power or Wisdom roll?

>>15292914
Maybe have that for majorly powerful spells, but there are sorcerors and witches in Zelda who don't use such artifacts. What about their powers, and minor spells? Sure, world-ending or major mystic stuff like Din's Fire or the killer energy balls Ganon spams would need some sort of item, but what about minor stuff like Wizrobe powers and such?

>>15292962
Maybe the spells could still be acquired like items but not require an actual item to use. For example your wizard learns a minor spell from a sage in a temple, he can now use it at will with a proper Magic roll and the right MP cost.

>>15292981
A sage, or a spirit, or even a certain pair of ancient Witches...

That could work!

If we're giving each character a certain small number of items to start with maybe a spellcasting character could choose to trade any amount of those for low-level spells possessed? That way a character could start off with a robe and a few minor magical tricks up his sleeve.

>>15292981
Or even a page in a spellbook, or maybe a little talsiman carried on a belt?

>>15292955
Spells use the Magic Skill, so Magic + Mental, keeping whatever virtue is related to the roll
>Power Spells: Fire/earth, direct damage, terrain altering (creating platforms, destroying walls)
>Wisdom Spells: Ice/water, defensive buffs or hindering offensive magic, healing.
>Courage Spells: Wind, Offensive buffs, movement and exploration spells (teleporting or transforming)

>>15293071
It could be any sort of item depending on the GM and players' whims. This has the added benefit of letting characters fluff their individual magic-user however they want. They could make a shaman that has a necklace full of totems, a wizard with a spellbook full of pages or a creepy smiling man with a bag full of masks.

Starting Kit:
Offensive item
>Melee weapon, low level spell, simple ranged weapon (are bows too potent for starting characters?)

Secondary Item
>Shield, potion, different low level spell, simple armor?

Thoughts on this?

Incidentally, this might be a fanfic, but it has some interesting ideas that could be used: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3387336/1/Never_After

Stuff like the Sheikah history?

>>15293390
I still think it works better to give them three general items that could be anything instead of forcing players to pick from categories

>>15293390

This seems very logical to me

How do we handle starting money? Should everyone start with 0, or could they relinquish their secondary item to start with some extra cash? Might be a neat option for rich characters.

Also, if GMs wanted to ease into a game, they could have willing players get their starting gear through a "tutorial" of sorts.

>Flidin Kumgang

>>15294183
im a big fan of letting characters have establishing quests

We have Rito, but not Koroks? Hmm.

Since they can both fly, maybe use the Rito's flight ability for the Korok, but reduce their mass and movement to that of a Deku? Maybe the two races could share certain techniques.

I'm looking at the character sheet at the moment, and I'm confused about what exactly the Techniques section is for. My initial thought was that it was for special moves like a shield bash but then there's no spots for attributed virtue or a roll.

>>15295270
the Techniques section is for Techniques. the lack of designated space for attribute/virtue/roll is likely just due to space constraints

Do Garo count as race or class?

>>15295562
Since there aren't many of them, I say make them a class.

Let's define races as anybody who has a "home section" in the canon video games. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Races_in_The_Legend_of_Zelda#Races)

And let's define classes, as anything found IN those home sections. For example, that GIANT Goron, could be a class.

So to answer your question, I think Garo should be a class.

>>15295694

It's not a class, nothing is a class, because there are no classes. Classes were removed in the first topic.

>>15295834
Oh...

>>15295562
Nope, but they might be a race in the future, and they're going to be statted as monsters soon.

>>15295562
>Do Garo count as race or class?
a R.C.C.

>>15295562
Aren't Garo just ghosts? Still scouting for their dead empire?

So let's say that you choose three Items when you start. Those can be Spells, Shields, Weapons, Armor, what have you.
What about letting starting characters choose up to two of the same thing in the beginning (except for [probably] Shields and Armor)?
It lets them start with three bottles and their fists or sword/shield/armor. (Clothes are a free Item).
And if there were two spells from each Virtue, they would have a neat little variety of stuff available. One offensive, one non-offensive.

>>15293071
>Power Spells: Fire/earth, direct damage, terrain altering (creating platforms, destroying walls)
>Wisdom Spells: Ice/water, defensive buffs or hindering offensive magic, healing.
>Courage Spells: Wind, Offensive buffs, movement and exploration spells (teleporting or transforming)

Power
>Magic Missile-esque? Small Fireball?
>Lesser version of that block-creating rod?
Wisdom
>Ice Beam reduces target Movement by X/ freezes them in place?
>Weak Healing spell?
Courage
>Buff? Increase own/allies speed?
>FLY WITH THE WIIIIIND

>>15296249
Garo are already statted as monsters. Check the wiki. There is a Garo Apprentice and a Garo Master entry.

Lets see.
1 Mental= 6MP
2 Mental=12MP
3 Mental=18MP
4 Mental=24MP
Most mages will have 24 MP, or twelve uses of a standard attack spell (2MP).
Buff spells shouldn't stack, but might be more expensive (to avoid spam).
Healing spells should probably heal something like 1/2H per MP, so a standard Single Action Healing spell could be Heal 3 Hearts,use 6MP (a block).

Lesser Fireball
A ball of flame flies towards your foe.
Power Spell-Starting Option
Single action
2MP-1/2H Fire Damage-Range 10

Lesser Summon Block
A block of earth appears in midair.
Power Spell-Starting Option
Single Action
4MP-0 Damage-Range 5
Summon a 1m^3 block in an empty area. The block levitates, counts as Normal Terrain and can be walked on. The block disappears when the user's next turn starts.

Lesser Freeze
A freezing wind encases your enemy.
Wisdom Spell-Starting Option
Single Action
2MP-1/4 Ice Damage (Freeze)-Range 10

Lesser Heal
Healing waters cover wounds, and disappear with them.
Wisdom Spell-Starting Option
Single Action
6MP-Range 1
Heal the target 3 Hearts.

Lesser Aiding Wind (Needs a better name)
The wind speeds you feet, nearly lifting you where you go.
Courage Spell-Starting Option
Single Action
4MP-Range 5
The targets Movement is temporarily doubled. Lesser Aiding Wind wears off after 4 turns.

Lesser Gust
A gust of wind carries you through the air.
Courage Spell-Starting Option
Double Action
6MP-Range 5
The target is moved twice their movement. If they are not on a solid surface after moving, they fall. Unwilling fliers may take an opposed Physical check to counter this.

Do we have any format for these stuff? I think someone did some stuff after converting the spells from Link to the Past.

>>15297263
Many magic users will have 3 Mental, if they don't miax. We're trying to build around generalist characters, here.

>>15297706
True. And that means that the average Mage will be able to use 9 offensive spells if they cost 2MP (as the OP said).

That's 9 turns if you attack once a turn, 4.5 if you double attack.
Mages don't have much lasting power without drops, so Pots and such are very, very necessary.

>>15297740
Mhm. There was a random drop table in an earlier thread that could be adjusted for simplicity.

To compensate, spells should be a bit stronger than weapon attacks. I had a fire spell (Power, 3/4h fire damage) and an ice spell (Wisdom, 1/2h ice damage, plus reduce enemy movement) that seemed more potent than typical weapons.

>Tioven WHAT

>>15298030
Yeah, that seems good. Just as long as we make sure that it doesn't lead to Mages being God-Tier or a few turns before becoming useless.
Any comments on the spells I made other than MP costs/ damage?
Oh, and stronger spells could take multiple turns to set up. Like the ones in Eternal Darkness if you've played that.

I had an idea that we could allow damage increment to increase for every turn the mage spent charging up the spell (and obviously putting more MP into it in the process). That could make it so that mages wouldn't just spam whatever spells they had and then be done, they would be more of a really powerful glass cannon.

Alright, grabbed this from Thread 7. Kudos to whoever made it.(These may be TCN's. (Also it just did 1/2H, not 3/4H.))
So then all that's needed is some utility/non-offensive for each virtue and a Courage offensive, and Mages get a small selection to choose from.

Also: I am going to assume that -Success: means that that thing happens once for every success. It's a pretty smart move, actually.

Greentext is quoted:
>Fire (Power)
>Attack
>A bolt of fire roars as it soars past.
>-Cost 2MP
>-Range: 10
>-Success: 1/2H fire damage.

Cube(Power)
A cube of solid matter appears in midair.
Utility
-Cost: 4MP
-Range 5
-Success: A one meter cube is created. The cube is immobile, levitates, acts like a 1m tall obstacle and can be walked on. The cube disappears on the start of your next turn.

>Ice (Wisdom)
>Attack
>A beam of ice sails through the air.
>-Cost: 2MP
>-Range 10
>-Success: 1/4H Ice damage, and the target's movement is reduced by 1 until the beginning of the caster's turn.

Heal(Wisdom)
Wounds disappear as pure magic flows into them.
Utility
-Cost:4MP
-Range 1
-Success: The target is healed 1 Heart.

Wind(Courage)
Attack
A gust of wind rushes forth.
-Cost:2MP
-Range 10
-Success: 1/4 Wind damage, and target is moved 1 square.

Flight(Courage)
The wind streams upwards, making flight effortless.
Utility
-Cost:4MP
-Range 5
-Success: The target is lifted into the air and moved 5 squares. If the target is not on a solid surface when it stops, it falls.

Also also:
>No enemy attacks with wind, and yet that's what a tunic defends against
>tunics are pretty much useless

>>15298589
Charge Spell(Active)
-Requirements: 2 |Magic| OR 4 Mental
-XP Cost: 4XP
-Actions: 1
The next spell you do gains an additional 1/4H to it's Damage Increment and an additional 1MP to its Cost. After using Charge Spell, your next action must be either using Charge Spell again or using a spell.

>TIME/ns Citati
As an amateur physicist, my mind is blown. Not sure what it means, though.

>>15298646
those spells are really powerful if each success gives one increment of damage, but the MP cost means that even a highly specialized mage would have to be judicious about his use of them. We'll see when we get to playtesting, but those look good so far.

>>15298823
im not sure about adding only 1/4 to the damage increment since at higher levels that technique would be basically useless. Although i suppose at higher levels you would be getting more successes so it all comes out in the wash.

Goddess's Strength (Power)
Utility
Magical power infuses the target with supernatural strength
-Cost: 4 MP
-Range 1
-Success: The target gains +1k1 to all Physical Power rolls for the next turn

thoughts?

>>15298836
...That's how it works for everything.
Fire:
Base DI 1/2H, roll Magic/Mental Power
Sword:
Base DI 1/2H, roll Melee/Physical Courage

Each success deals the Damage increment in damage.

Also! For everyone looking for spells and stuff, CTRL+F through the old threads, or here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?xpboltmdiicta7z

>>15298995
>Use Goddess's Strength on ally
>Have 4 Mental, 4 Power
>Roll 6k6 since I have 4 |Magic|
>Succeed on everything
>Ally has +6k6 to all physical power rolls next turn
>Ally is also horribly optimized and rolls base 6k6 with |Heavy| Physical Power
>Ally Rolls 12k12
>ooooh noooo

Welp, better go buy that cube of d6!

(...Maybe just change it so that you don't need to roll for it? It's probably a good idea for buffing spells, and removes horrible, horribly stacking.)
(Sorry for being a dick. It just seemed to need a bit of testing to avoid, well, that.)

>>15299097
point taken, but any ludicrous stacking is bound to occur if we let buff have increments like that.

Would it be as bad if it was +1k0? That way they wouldn't be able to get more successes than they have power, they would just be pretty much guaranteed to preform at or near their normal maximum.

>>15299097
Maybe for buffs and certain other spells that we don't want to scale or don't make sense to scale, we should instead have the skill check be a matter of getting X successes on an unopposed check with the success threshold dictated by the spell, or else the spell fails? Seems to me that this would make much more sense.

>>15299162
>>15299135
A flat +2k2 maybe?

>>15299197
that would be enough to boost a generalist up to the level of an optimized character at first level, and an optimized character up to pretty gargantuan strength. Works for me.

>>15298878
Magic Charge(Passive)
-Requirements: 4 |Magic|, Charge Spell
-XP Cost: 8XP
When using Charge Spell, increase the Damage Increment by 1/2H rather than 1/4H.

>>15299135
We should have pools capping at 10k10 or something. 6 |Skill| 6 Attribute 6 Virtue already has you rolling 9k9.

>>15299162
Or the buffs could simply not need a roll at all! Sometimes rolling is good, but instant effects are also good.
Let's not turn this into RIFTS.

>>15299222
However, if there is no roll involved whatsoever, it makes the |magic| skill entirely irrelevant for that spell. Anybody, regardless of skill, can cast the spell if they can manage to obtain it and have the available mp. This strikes me as a bad idea.

>>15299240
To be fair, it seems most spells have a decent |Magic| requirement, so it involves at least SOME investment which directly detracts from other areas.

>>15299197
Perhaps. But increase the MP a bit.

>>15299220
But it also let's the a maxed out character roll 11k11.
Also:
Optimized for a thing
>4 round the board
>Roll 6k6+2k2

Generalist
>3 attribute, 3 virtue probably
>No skill most likely, since he's not really made for this
>Roll 3k3+2k2

Remember: we're trying to avoid using too large dice pools. Rolling nine dice for a maxed character

>>15299240
Spells need something so that a beginner cannot cast the Spell What Endeth The Worlde and stuff like that.
Spells really, really need |Magic| Requirements.

>>15299311
Actually there was some discussion on whether to have spells as Techniques or separate.
I'm not sure what got agreed on, but nothing ended up on the wiki.
It all ended with them not having any Requirements strangely enough.

So what will you need to play this game? (Besides the game itself)
>10d6 each
>2d10 for GM?
>Graph (Unless you play without)
>Minis (Ditto)

Just an IRC connection.

>>15299347
Spells have always been intended to be treated as items right from the start, never techniques. It may not necessarily be a physical object (it might be a blessing bestowed by a Great Fairy, or a lesson learned from a sage), but it's definitely an obtained "thing" separate from what you spend your XP on.

>>15299791
That's sensible. No weight, obviously...

How would it work for a Wizrobe or Ganon?

>>15299939
It doesn't matter for them, they're not PCs.

I know we shouldn't worry about these kinda things right now, but I wrote up some fluff for people who want to use any of the video game's Mythos as lore for their campaigns.


Possible Settings:

Hyrulean Civil War: Taking place between the events of Skyward Sword to Ocarina of Time. While undetermined how long this war lasted or for what reason it started, the war sparked conflict between Hylians who wished to unify their tribe with the Zora and Goron, while the other wished to wipe them out so they would not get close to the Sacred Realm. The end result was the Royal Family called a cease fire and unified the Zora and Goron tribes together with the Hylians. This war also brought about how Link was given over to the Great Deku Tree by his mother who fled from the war but was mortally wounded in the process. Afew years would pass and the start of Ocarina of Time would begin here.

Interloper War: While undetermined if this takes place during before or after the Hyrulean Civil War, this war is made mention in Twilight Princess. After the Goddesses crafted Hyrule and the Triforce, word of their legend spread across the land and a tribe of "Dark Interlopers" using a dark and unknown force of magic tried to take hold of the Triforce for themselves. The magic they used was known as the Fused Shadow. The Goddesses commanded the Light Spirits to craft a new Realm called the Realm of Twilight, and cast the Dark Interlopers into that realm, along with breaking the Fused Shadow into separate pieces and hiding them away in different templed. Descendants of the Interlopers would later be known as the Twili.

War of the Bound Chest: This War took place before the events of the Minish Cap. One day in Hyrule the whole land was overwhelmed by evil creatures nearly obliterating it. While on the verge of destruction the Picori(Minish) appeared to a lone hero and granted him a Picori Blade and source of magic called "Light Force" that drove away the evil creatures and restored light to the land of Hyrule. To ensure that the evil would not return the Hero of Men banished all the evil creatures in a chest called the Bound Chest and used the Picori Blade as the seal. To prevent misuse of the Light Force the Hero of Men placed the magic within the bodies of the Royal Family, giving the current and descending family members the Light Force Magic.

The Imprisoning War: Taking place during the start of the Adult Link Timeline in Ocarina of Time, this war began as soon as Gannondorf entered the Sacred Realm and ceased the Triforce of Power. Gannondorf once obtaining the Triforce Piece, infused himself with powers from the Twilight Realm which granted him dominion over evil creatures and transformed him into the Beast named Ganon. Seven years later the Hero of Time would appear gathering the Seven Sages and with Princess Zelda's assistance sealed Gannondorf away into the Sacred Realm.

The Twili Invasion: Taking place during the Child Link Timeline just after Majora's Mask. Went the King of Hyrule caught wind of Gannondorf's plans to rule over Hyrule, he instructed the Sages to banish Gannondorf into the Twilight Realm. Afew years later the Twili would escape from the Twilight Realm and invade Hyrule fusing the Twilight Realm upon the land. The attack on Hyrule was coordinated by Zant, a Twili who overthrew Princess Midna from her throne, and tainted the Twili into beast like creatures with Gannondorf's power.

The Great Flood: Taking place after the events of Ocarina of Time's Adult Link Timeline. After Gannondorf was sealed away in the Sacred Realm, the hero of Time returned back to his time period. Once again Gannondorf would break free of the seal and summoned a massive flood that would drown Hyrule. The people called out for the Hero of Time to save them, but he did not return and thus Hyrule was sunken under a massive flood. Hundreds of years later the land would repopulate on small broken islands, however the people of this land still practice Hyrulian traditions in hopes of invoking the return of the Hero of Time.

The Faithless Years: This takes place in Majora's Mask's past as the game gave subtle hints of the Hyrulian's decent into losing faith in the three Goddesses. In Termina's past the people of the land slowly began to lose faith in the three Goddesses and started creating their own tribal-esk gods in the hopes of having their wishes and desires come true, one of them being Majora. While still vaguely practicing the traditions of the Goddesses, their faith grew idle over the years upon the third eve of Termina's Festival the Moon grew a face and began to descend upon the land. Through the course of the three days people would spin into a chaotic fit of uncertainty, despair, and madness, however there were some who still held faith and became at piece with their final hours, but through it all knew they would turn out alright if they just had faith. Some say their returned faith was the key in reawakening the four Giants who saved the town from utter obliteration by the crazed moon.

Thread archived since we forgot hat one time!
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15290183/
It updates every hour or so so it'll last until 404.

Now. Who put "Drawfag" as a tag for the last thread? I'm pretty sure drawthreads get autodeleted during culls, so let's hope LL notices that we're worth keeping.

To Captcha: My keyboard is not a scientific calculator, nor can I write out complex formulae with it.

>>15301291

May have been me. I am a drawfag by trade, didn't know /tg/'s not a huge fan of us. Sorry bout that.

>>15300506
Can I try? some ideas

"After the Carnival"
Though the threat of Majora was ended by an unnamed hero, Termina's woes continue. Clock Town continues much as it always has, but the Zora and Goron communities are in turmoil after the deaths of their leaders. Rumour has it that the Gerudo pirates are engaged in a battle for control of the coastline with the Zora of the Bay, and these proud people have called for aid from their oceanic cousins. Inland, the Deku tribesmen continue their isolated existence, with the exception of the odd emissary. Rarely, outsiders will be permitted to enter their lands unharmed and even conduct tasks for the tribesmen, though few are allowed near their great palace. The Gorons fared worse, however, with no leader after their Elder recently passed away. With their clan lost in internal bickering, the back trails over the Mountains go neglected, and travelers over those snowy routes disappear with frequencies unheard of since the defeat of Majora.

In such times, the people of Clock Town, and Termina, have much work to do.

Character/plot concepts:
Majora's Mask:
You're a former Town Guard, or even a current one with orders to oversee a band of hired investigators/adventurers on some task.

You're a Mask crafter or apprenticed to one, and you need some special ingredient or access to location to craft a very...special mask.

There are rumours of lost treasure on the ancient plateau of Ikana, within the abandoned homes and beyond the impassable, great gate of the Palace. Of course, there are just as many rumours of disappearances, curses, and things better left slumbering...

A small man with an oversized backpack and a mocking smile has a job for you...

>>15301388
/tg/ is, the archiver isn't.

A merchant running a recently opened Bomb Shop in Clock Town is having trouble competing with the existing Bomb Shop. To counter this, they've ordered a prototype bomb of some sort from the Goron crafters. Your group has been hired, and generously paid, to oversee the moving of a crop of this new bomb from the Mountains to Clock Town. Of course, things won't go as planned...

The Deku tribesmen are notoriously hostile to outsiders. Since the Three Days, however, they've been much more open, going so far as to end emissaries to the other peoples of Termina. One of these emissaries has approached your group with a request...

There have been reports of nighttime attacks by Wolfos in Termina Field. Though no one has been seriously hurt by the creatures so far, there has been a serious drop in traffic in and out of Clock Town as a result, and an increase in convoys. Your group has been hired by the Town Guard to try and solve the Wolfos problem, and maybe even find out what made the creatures venture out from the swamp outskirts...

>>15301604
Something is wrong with the Clock Tower's inner workings. You must venture deep into the grinding clockwork and find the source of the fault, as well as the town repairman who disappeared inside without a trace a day ago...

Ill just leave this one here

The Gereudo have kidnapped a prominent Clock Town merchant's family and are demanding a hefty ransom. Can your group find a way to ensure their freedom? Adding to the trouble, or perhaps offering a source of aid, the Zora are engaging in skirmishes with the Gereudo. (Years of resentment and hostility having boiled over into full-out warfare after the theft of their eggs and the apparent murder of one of their singers by the pirates.)

By the way, I have an idea for Zora, fluff-wise. There are different types- river, bay, and ocean zora. They range from the squat, scaly types we see in ALTTP to the more elegant OOT and MM Zora...

Thoughts? Gives more variety while explaining away the issues with the different portrayals.

>>15301682
...YES
THAT IS THE GREATEST ZORA EVER

>>15300499
There was some time between Link leaving forever and Ganondorf escaping, enough time for the Sage of Forest and Earth to be replaced.
I'll probably have my players play through the time between Ganondorf's escape and the Great Flood.
>Pic related

>>15301738
Or call River Zoras Zola, since that's another possible translation.
Zola are more a monster/NPC race though. Also natural fireball attack.

>>15301824
So we have the xenophobic, subhuman River Zora, or Zola, with instinctual magic and a more intelligent King.(Only seen in ALTTP era unless GM decides otherwise)

The intermediate lake/bay Zora (OOT, MM, TP era)- somewhat isolationist in the case of Hyrule, performers and somewhat integrated into the Clock Town society in Termina. Less magical, use fins as weapons, have access to magical attacks in the case of their heroes. Fast swimmers.

And a fanon creation, the open ocean Zora: intelligent, generally very isolationist, sleek, pack hunters (or schools) and rather territorial when outsiders are involved. Known to assist shipwrecked sailors on occasion, but do not take well to intruders who disobey warnings or enter their temples. Think sharks. Less humanoid than the bay Zora, but not abhuman creatures like the river Zora/Zola.

Back to the subject of magic, I think we can all agree that there should probably be some way to tie non-scaling effects (like buff and utility) to |magic| skill. The question is, how do we want to do this? I can think of two ways:

1) Skill rank prerequisites.
2) Unopposed |magic| skill checks to determine success or failure; difficulty of the check is defined by the spell.

I can think of several arguments for each:

>Option 1
First, it's simpler -- both in application and to design.
Second, it can also be applied to scaling effects to prevent abuse by low-skill characters.
Third, it's a stricter measure of control.

>Option 2
First, it's more consistent with other skills and other uses of the |magic| skill. You need to roll to use a sword and to cast an attack spell, so it only makes sense that you should roll to use a buff or utility spell.
Second, it reinforces the designation of magic as item-like rather than technique-like in nature.
Third, it keeps the Virtue distinctions between different kinds of magic relevant. Granted, we could simply have Virtue prerequisites as well as skill rank prerequisites with option 1, but that further blurs the line between magic and techniques.
Fourth, while it may be a looser restriction than option 1, the treatment of spells as items means that even if spell use is less restricted, spell availability can still be tightly controlled. Stronger spells simply wouldn't be available at character creation, and past that point the GM dictates what spells a player gets and when.
Fifth, it allows for a more sophisticated scale of spell power level.
Sixth, (and this kind of goes both for and against) it's good for drama. A lucky roll at a critical moment can allow a player to use a spell that's a bit out of their league to turn the tables in a tough fight. Conversely, a poor roll on a usually reliable spell can turn what might have been a cakewalk into a legitimate challenge.

>>15301905
Why split them up? Unless we're doing this with all races, this just seems needlessly complex.
But then again, I didn't like making Hylians, Gerudo and Shiekah the same.
I can understand Shiekah, but Gerudo? If they're going to need seperate pages of fluff anyways, why not make them seperate (If identical crunchwise) races?
It just bugs me.

>>15301926
But the difference between offensive stuff and defensive is the difference between Opposed and Unopposed checks.
And well, I think a mixture is best. Healing spells can work, since 1H/Success is a max of 9H, but just buffing would be more like a flat "Roll to see if you succeed". And some stuff probably doesn't even need a roll.
Perhaps you could write up the cons for both?
I'm leaning towards Option 1, but arguments against it could be good.

>>15301905
River Zora/Zola should be kept as a monster race, same as Moblins.

And let's keep fanon out of this.

>>15302019
>Perhaps you could write up the cons for both?
The cons are basically just the inverse of the pros for the opposing option.
Option 1 is inconsistent with other skills, blurs the line between spells and techniques. risks undermining the relevance of Virtues with regard to magic (particularly Courage-based magic, which would include many non-scaling effects such as buffs and utility spells), requires a more limited and quantized scale of spell power, and prevents the possibility of interesting dramatic outcomes based on lucky/unlucky rolls.
Option 2 is more complicated, can't prevent low-skill characters from using advanced powerful spells like the Bombos Medallion, and is generally a looser restriction on use of spells.

>>15302157
Buuut if someone wants to play them...

River Zora
-Mass 4
-Movement 6 (Swim 8)
-Fireball: River Zora can spit a fireball as a single action. Attack: Mental Wisdom, 1/4H damage, Range 20
-Aquatic: River Zora have a natural swim speed, and can speak and breathe underwater.

I do not know how to make the attack reflecting if the opponent blocks with a shield and/or Butterfly Net.
Perhaps roll to hit yourself?

But yeah, homebrew for a game that's not even in alpha. Whoo.

here is a list of the most common Zelda enemies (excluding the ones done), they have been in at least 3 games each most of them have been in more.
Armos
Bee
Blade trap
Bubble
Boulder
Bow-Wow
Buzz Blob
Chaser
Cheep-Cheep
Crab
Crow
Cucco
Dynofos
Dodongo
Eyegore
Floor Tile
Floormaster
Flying Pot
Freezard
Gerudo
Ghini
Gibdo
Gohma Larva
Gonponga Flower
Guay
Gyorg
Hardhat Bettle
Helmasuar
Hinox
Lanmola
Lunel
Molodorm
Pincer
Piranha
Pokey
Pols Voice
ReDead
Real Bombchu
River Zora
Sentry Eye
Shell Blade
Skull Kid
Spark
Spike Beetle
Spiny Beetle
Stone Statue
Takkuri
Terrorpin
Thwomp
Vire
Whisp/Anti-Fairy
White Wolfos
Winder

>>15302157
>>15302019
I say we split Hylians and Gerudo. Sheikah...maybe, probably just a class of Hylian.

So River Zora/Zora are definitely separate? Maybe the former are NPCs only?

>>15295562
>>15296280
NPC Race. They're ghosts still scouting for their lost empire, which was an enemy of the Ikana. Their Master is in the Ikana Castle where he died.

encouraging bump.

A lot of good work continues to be done on this. All of /tg/ is rooting for you gents. Keep up the good work.

>>15303248
River Zora are pretty solidly only an NPC race. Gerudo and sheikah already have a pretty high level of distinction from standard hylians so i don't think anything more is necessary. Besides, when theres so much to do in terms of the magic system and enemy stats i don't think this is really the time to bring the discussion back to racial templates.

>>15303248
there aren't any classes. The word itself has been kind of an instant rage trigger for the duration of the project.

(Been occupied all day, sorry)
We have plenty of races for now. Maybe we can focus on monster PC races after we do some testing and get out a first release.

(But on the subject of river zora, the Geozards from Phantom Hourglass would make a good high-threat monster.)

Mount rules from an older thread:

When mounted,
-You and your mount are considered to be occupying the same space, although you remain seperate targets.
-When your mount moves, you move with it.
-You and your mount share the same set of actions (2 between you and the mount)
-You must make a Spiritual Courage check (moderate difficulty) every time you attempt to control your mount. If you fail, the GM determines your mount's action.
-You subtract your mass from your mount's speed.


Natural Rider
Requirements: Spiritual 3
XP Cost: low
Passive technique
You can control your mount's actions without making checks.

>>15305553
any objections to putting this on the wiki?

>>15302019
>But then again, I didn't like making Hylians, Gerudo and Shiekah the same.
I don't like it either. I think giving them discounts on different techniques will get convoluted and messy for one thing. How about Gerudo get 1 free low xp cost Racial or Weapon tech at creation, Hylians get +1 to any virtue, and Sheikah get some kind of bonus to resist illusions?
>The Sheikah tribe, at least Impa, was famous for... their ability to “see” through fake walls as noted in the Shadow Temple and the Well, which were created with such power in mind

>>15306154
This sounds good.

Sorry I havent posted in like 3 days. Been a little busy. I'll dump some drawfaggotry as an apology.

>>15306154
working more on racial templates is moot right now anyway since we havent figured out all of our mechanics. I say we finish building the system before we start arguing about retooling the racial templates.

>>15305553
I kind of feel that Natural Rider should be a slightly higher level technique, with a lower level one that makes riding checks easier. There is some middle-ground between "Can ride a horse" and "Can empathatically make the horse do whatever I want."

>>15306226
the low level one can be no checks on simple stuff like moving but still requires checks on complex maneuvers or whatevs

>>15306243
That works. You can get a mount to go where you want, but you need the higher-up technique to get your horse to jump a chasm without a second thought.

...And this is your BBEG. That's all the Zelda drawfagging I've done in the past couple days; does /tg/ approve?

I'm rather fond of how Bongo Bongo turned out. I did all of these as part of a 20-minute speeddrawing contest.

I've actually been working on my own Zelda homebrew for a while now, but with a heavy Wind Waker bent.

The Classes
> The Swordsman: An adept melee fighter who tears apart the battlefield with his powerful blows.

> The Adventurer: A skilled archer who flings himself around the battlefield with his trusty clawshot and attacks from afar with his deadly bow.

> The Conductor: A great songstress who calls upon the might of the gods with her baton, wrecking towering foes with the power of the winds.

Each class receives bonuses to their respective abilities, and heavy specialization is encouraged. The multiclassing system works like this:
Let's say a character has take 3 levels in two of the starting classes, Adventurer and Conductor. 2 levels in Adventurer, one in Conductor. Now instead of receiving a +2 modifier to actions such as using the grappling hook, he only receives a +1 bonus, this is because a -1 modifier has been applied for every level he's taken in another class. This is balance out his access to a new tier of Conductor skills, and to prevent one player becoming a jack of all trades and cheapening dungeons that would normally rely on very heavy teamwork.

>>15306297
I figured since this is a Zelda RPG thread this would be ok too, I have more to post, but I would really like some feedback.

bump

>>15306385

Post more, then we'll give you feedback by taking all the good stuff for ourselves /Tetra.

But looking at your multi-classing example, wouldn't you be taking a -1 penalty to Conductor abilities, making them unusable?

>>15306531
On a d20 roll, -1 is a very small penalty, I shouldn't have used the word ability, I meant actions. If you want to maintain that sort of dual class you have to do it actively, it'll be easy to understand how it balances when I post the leveling system. The leveling the ability/skill systems are actually combined, the composite working more like magic then anything else.

>>15306297
Leveling

At character creation players select a deity to follow, the initial list being Farore, Din, and Nayru. Then according to their class and their diety, they assigned a blessing. A blessing works essentially like a spell, you must meditate to assign it to your blessing slot (starting at one) each day, and then must expend some of your magic to use it (if active or not a song, songs have cooldown times instead of using magic) or enjoying its constant effects till you reassign. (if passive)

Now the blessings are located along a tree, and they each have a certain favor requirement before you can advance. Favor is a number representing the gods disposition torwards you, and can be increased through various means, the primary method being sacrificing pearls of favor. These are large spheres found in dungeons or dropped by powerful enemies, and by crushing them your favor total increases by one.

Now each gods favor tree is split into three class groups, and as you earn favor you may start obtaining blessings from other classes besides your own. The tree is split in several tiers, and as you move up it you will eventually pass into another tier, any branch you pass through a tier in gains a level.

I built it this way, instead of using an XP system, to give the DM a little more control over character development, and to make it slightly more Zeldalike.

>>15306692
this actually sounds pretty cool
do you have pc races or is everyone hylian?

Looks like this threads picking up speed again.

>>15306737
Right now everyones Hylian, but I'm working on the race system. The problem is sort of shoehorning the different races into these class roles, and though there's alot of room when they branch out later, in the beginning I'm finding it hard to balance, and keep them true to Zelda fluff.

Especially the Rito, I don't want to take away its eventual ability to fly, but that being a racial ability wrecks the whole class triangle.

Can we start archiving this thread?

>>15306799
see >>15301291

>>15306763
By the way, this is my trip if I have anything more to post.

>>15306807
good idea. i was going to suggest you start namefagging if you continue posting your system in this thread so people don't mistake it for part of our system

>>15306692
Does anyone have any ideas or criticisms? One of the things I'm trying to finetune the blessing system lategame, since by then it has branched so much that it's ludicrous in size.
I am also considering allowing "passive worship" or to allow players to take up a secondary diety midgame.
I've been trying to balance it so that each blessing scales as you gain favor, preventing any from becoming obsolete. It's more like taking a prestige class in DnD then gaining more powerful spells as a Wizard.

Bumpity Lump

>>15302157
You know, you mentioned something that made me think a bit.
>blurs the line between spells and techniques
Thing is, we already do that. It's sad but true. Many Techniques use MP, and some racial ones are extremely similar to spells. (See: Deku Bubbles)

So here's what I suggest we do:
-All spells (Or many, at least) have |Magic| or Mental requirements
-Spells in general are sorted into three groups:
--Spells that stack effects per success
>Attack spells, (Some) healing, Travel spells
--Spells that simply roll to see if you succeed
>Spells whose effects are not conductive to stacking (Sleep, telekinesis, Unlock Lock,whatever)
--Spells that you do not roll for
>Non-stacking spells that you simply wouldn't need to roll to hit with, like buffs, lighting something immobile and inflammable on fire, and other reliable stuff

Since some spells should stack (Damage etc.), some shouldn't, but need an opposed check or accuracy (Freezing an opponent is hard to stack as [Freeze] currently works) and some should just simply be reliable.
You wouldn't really want to roll every time you create magical light or so.
Also wasted MP is a real pain, especially if Utility spells use more than offensive ones.

Sorry for rambling: just my thoughts.

>>15307132
I agree 100%. Very well put.

>>15307132

The thing is, as i see it, a spell in this case would be something that is linked or depends on the /magic/ skill, yes there ara techniques that require mp, but they dont have a magic prerrequisite. As oppossed to a spell that should require some level in magic skil to be castable. There lies the crucial difference, having to use mp in this system doesnt mean you are casting a spell. I dont think that should be a problem as long as we know that difference, but then again there will be some people that will think thats illogical.

>>15307132
My thinking with the |magic| skill checks for non-stacking, non-opposed stuff would be that it's not a matter of "can I hit the target/overcome their defenses?", but "can I adequately control the magical forces necessary to achieve my desired result?" And as >>15307887 notes, just because something uses MP doesn't make it a spell -- this is true in the video games as much as the system we're working on.
The real issue in my mind is preserving the identity of spells as item-like in nature, which skill rank and/or Virtue prerequisites would compromise -- we don't have prerequisites for using a sword, or a shield, or a bow, or a hookshot, why should we for magic? Techniques use prerequisites, items (which includes spells) use skill checks.

Using skill checks could also be applied to songs once we get those worked out. Most songs have the kinds of effects that we probably wouldn't apply rolls for if we were to allow such a system with magic, producing non-opposed, discrete effects. This means if we use skill rank prerequisites as the deciding factor for controlling then the |instrument| skill would pretty much never come into play with actual checks. And considering that songs are also treated as "items", just like spells, the same issues apply there.

For the sake of consistency between "items", and to make sure that skill ranks and virtues remain relevant in |magic| and |instruments|, I think requiring skill checks is best. To avoid requiring rolls for trivial effects, we could make techniques for the |magic| skill that let a character ignore checks below a certain difficulty level.

>>15308102
What I have an issue with is how certain stuff, or even certain in-game items, don't seem like they really need a roll.
The Cane of Pacci, for instance. Rolls for such items should entirely be up to the GM: 4(2) (2 successes that are 4 or higher) or something might be the requirement for flipping a boulder, but flipping a small pot would be 1(1) or something and not even require a roll.
Like in DnD, where characters start autosucceeding certain tasks after a while.

As for |instruments|, it's hard to get an idea of what to do there.
Perhaps songs like the hawk one and Eponas are so simple that they don't need much of a roll, while songs like the Warp songs should need a significantly harder check due to difficulty/complexity.

As for songs, we really need to write up some. Just stealing from the games won't work for everything here: Eponas song would need a rename, but is otherwise fine, the hawk call as well, but songs like the Bolero of Fire shouldn't be with unless the Death Mountain is important enough to warrant a warp.

Checks are only needed if there is a chance of failure.

>>15308239
>>15308458
The problem is, *most* things in the video games don't really have any sort of variability or chance of failure. You use Din's Fire? Automatic damage to everything in the area. You use the Cane of Byrna? Instant force field, no questions asked.

It's all well and good to say "there should only be a check if there's a chance of failure", but how do we define "chance of failure"? If we're going strictly based on what's represented in the video games, the only magic that would have any chance of failure would be ranged attack spells like the Fire and Ice Rods from LttP. And not one song from the video games would require a check. This means that |magic| and |instruments| would function very differently from other skills, existing primarily as a system of prerequisites rather than a measure of ability to succeed at a type of task. It also means that spells and songs would often have to be nerfed to compensate for their reliability compared to weapons and tools. This would make playing a mage or musician character kind of lame.

In converting video game elements to P&P format, a level of abstraction must be added to make it work, and certain things must be altered for the sake of game balance. The way magic works in the LoZ universe is never very thoroughly examined in the video games, so as designers we have a lot of space to fluff out in whatever way best justifies the mechanical choices we make to create a balanced and consistent system. We can easily say that controlling the mystical forces behind magic and songs is actually a lot harder than Link (being the superstar hero that he is) makes it look, and so you need a skill check to see if you can pull it off. Of course, trivial things like flipping a pot with the Cane of Pacci can be done with check difficulties that are equally trivial, but in order to preserve a degree of similarity between skills, use of more powerful effects should be restricted by skill checks, not prerequisites.

>>15308957
Does anyone have that list of how many successes should be required for unopposed checks? It was something like 1=trivial, 5+=legendary

Because let's face it: having a maxed out skill only adds 3k3 to a roll.
If the only restriction on magic is succeeding on rolls, having any rank whatsoever in |Magic| is only needed when the requirement is more than six successes. Which is a crazy amount of successes.
What we should have is a mixture between the two: there are prerequisites for certain skills (Perhaps having enough Virtue or even a race as well) and there are checks when the check itself is needed. If the task itself is trivial enough, a check may not be needed.
In the end the difficulty of a check should be set by the GM. If someone wants to use a fire spell to light a campfire, or pick up a rock or climb a fence or something they shouldn't need to roll for it.
Similarly, spells should probably be more accurate at closer distances. Unless you have shaky hands or something.

Actually, should we include a mechanic to let players Take 20 or so? Just for trivial tasks, of course.

>>15309154
I don't feel like looking it up, but I was the one who came up with it in the first place, so I can easily recreate it.

Since the most balanced a PC can be (before bonus Virtue points for being human) at character creation is 3-2-2, and since PCs as a rule are always at least somewhat above average, we can describe the Virtue rankings as follows:

1 = Below average
2 = Average
3 = Above average
4 = Phenomenal
5+ = Legendary

And since Virtues determine how many kept dice you get, these descriptors can be used as guidelines for how many successes are necessary to accomplish a given task.

But anyway, you make a good point about the relative contribution of skills to a check. Skill checks alone would be a good way of reinforcing Virtue associations, but could well prove insufficient for tying it to the |magic| skill. We may need rank prerequisites after all.

As for dealing with checks in general, checks can certainly be waived at the GM's discretion for trivial tasks, and a "take 20/take 10" kind of system would probably be a good idea to implement. The take 20 version would be more like "take all sixes", and the take 10 should probably be some kind of preset array based on pool size; we'd need to look at the crunch statistics in that spreadsheet on the wiki to figure that out.

>>15309250 again

>>15309154
Also, I forgot to mention, but I don't think we need to include variability for range. That's probably a bit more complexity than we're really going for with this system. Nothing's stopping a GM from houseruling such a thing in, of course, but I wouldn't make it part of the core rules.

>>15309250
!
By the way, since the max an optimized character will be rolling at level one will be 4k4+2k2 for a skill-relevant thing, wouldn't that push the entire thing up a bit?
And a maxed character is rolling 6k6+3k3, so Legendary++ tasks might be too simple.
Aaaand that's without boosts from spells/items/songs/race.

>Plan agereque
We should have a requirement for age at the start? I don't know, Captcha. Link's just a kid in some games.

>>15309324

If we did put ages into the games, I guess limiting;
Power and wisdom and/or Physical and mental

Those seem like ones that would be inappropriate for a child, physical/Power should also have a lower cap for older characters.

((I'm not suggesting we do this, but it is quite a nice optional rule; especially in long campaigns..))

>>15309727
>>15309324
I think the proposed solution was -1 Mass for children.
Makes them faster, smaller and lightweight.

>>15309884

YES! I remember reading that, but I don't think it was ever "officially" put in. Either way, you can't expect a child to come toe to toe with an adult in combat or come close to the cognitive abilities of a trained spellcaster!

Also, what are the cutoff age for a child of each race?

>>15310038
Child...14 for humans, Zora and Gorons we'll have to wing it...Deku nuts might have faster development?

>>15310038

>imo

Human: 14
Kokiri: Pfft okay.
Rito: 14
Goron: 10
Deku: 4 (5?)
Zora: 14

>>15310057
Works. It shouldn't really come up for most PCs, anyway.

>>15310038
Note that the average stat is 3: most PCs will have something over that.
I'm not entirely sure, but I think our current position is for the PCs to be The Protagonists, and therefore somewhat better than normal [INSERT RACE HERE]. I might have gotten that wrong though.
But if so, the players shouldn't recieve all too big penalties for playing a child (hell, -1 Mass isn't a penalty, it's a speed boost). Plus, you know, the problem with skills.
>Standard 4 points to spend
>Max of 4
>Options: 4,3,1 / 3,3,2 / 4,2,2

>Assuming max of 3 for children
>Same for points to spend
>Options: 3,2,1 / 2,2,2

And since Attributes cost quite a bit, they should get a bonus to something else to balance that, and everything descends into complexity.

Since Zelda has had quite a few protagonists who are children (and, at one point, a Goron), players should not be punished for playing a child.

Fuck, Link in Wind Waker didn't even have the Triforce of Courage for most of the game. And see what HE was capable of.

>>15310219
Counter-argument: Link is the goddess-damned Hero of legends. He is not a normal person by any stretch of the imagination. He's BBEG level strength and stats. For PCs, there should still be penalties. (Kids in Zelda usually aren't seen in combat, eg: the Bomber Gang in Majora's Mask, kids in Castle Town...)

>>15310701

Liking this; and I didn't say a penalty either, I just said a lower skill cap which I believe is slightly different to a penalty. I suppose it could be removed after a certain amount of questing as the child would end up bulking up or getting smarter from constantly reading spellbooks.

>>15310852
>Assuming that the skill cap for Physical/Mental is 3
>Assuming that the PC still has 5 (got it wrong last time, apparently) points to distribute
>Options:3,3,1/3,2,2 or 4 spiritual,2,1
So you no longer get the same amount of options: either your character is a generalist or he's Spiritual.

>>15310701
(This may be relevant, or may not)
>The Hero of X has almost always had the Triforce of Courage. Exceptions being Four Swords and the beginning of OoT/MM and Wind Waker.
>Note that the exceptions are the ones where he's young.

Counter-counter argument:
Since the PCs are probably not normal people, being PCs and all, I don't think we should have them on the same level. If anything, the players are probably at the level of important NPCs: Those Guys in Twilight Princess are probably the best example.

Speaking of la resistance from TP, what should the stats for that Rocket Launcher be?

>>15311144

Wasn't it discussed that we wanted it to be pushed more towards generealist anyways? And you seem to think like this is something that will affect the game massively; it's the rules for playing children, not everyone. If it was for everyone, yes, I would agree with you, but this is like taking a flaw. You get a no, or very little bonus for taking a penalty. The point is, is that it's 100% optional. Players arent FORCED to play children (counter argument of "DM says its campaign neccessary" is moot as the DM could say anything) they MIGHT choose to.

((if this seems like I'm attacking you personally, I'm not.))

>>15311144
Important NPCs but not the Chosen Hero unless the GM says otherwise, in which case the bonuses would cancel or otherwise make up for the child issue. It's not a major problem, anyway.

>>15311556
>>15310852
This. Let's just note the effects of playing a kid, the changes to rules and RP opportunities, and move on.

I don't think we need anything nearly as complex for child characters as what's being discussed, and I think anything that makes playing a child a significant detriment would run counter to our goal of capturing the feel of the LoZ video games, given how many of these games have Link as a child hero. Sure, Link may be a special case, but so are the PCs -- they're just not *quite* as special as Link. A child PC is still a far cry from your typical ankle-biter, just as an adult PC is a cut above your typical adult.
Personally, I'm in favor of just making it so a child PC would just be required to take the -1 Mass option for their race. K.I.S.S.

>>15311946
this

I thought this was kind of implied in taking -1 mass and +1 movement. If that doesn't seem like enough to some people we could give children -2 mass and +2 movement, or -2 mass and +1 movement to make it less of a minmaxer's option.

>>15311946
There should be some acknowledgment of the fact, though. And it's unusual- you don't want to hand out triforces to the PCs, right? These guys aren't meant to be Link clones- they're far closer to the background NPCs, though obviously marked above the crowd in some other way.

Let's just go with -1/-2 mass and the +1 movement bonus and leave the rest to the GM. We have bigger octarok to fry!

>>15311144
I dunno. Power/Ranged? It might just work the same as cannons end up doin'.

I originally thought child characters would treat their mass as 1 lower than the default mass for their race, so they could still customize their mass a little bit (so an average zora kid would have Mass 3, Movement 6.) That might be unbalancing, though.

Anyway, keep up the good work. Will try to contribute more when I get the chance.

>>15313361
yeah that seems ok. That way a child character can be anywhere from runty (mass 2 human) to unusually big for his age.

So, what's the consensus on Magic and Music?

Also, I don't think that prerequisites are all that necessary for certain spells or songs. Since they're treated like items, the GM controls when a character gets a certain spell.

That's just my thought though.

>>15313421
The exception for that would have to be Dekus, because then the average Deku child would have 1 mass, which could then be reduced to 0. So Deku children should have the same average mass as adults.

0 mass should be reserved for Minish-sized creatures and insubstantial things like Poes.

>>15314385

Well that should be fine. In Majora's Mask we can see Deku children next to Deku adults and they're relatively close in size.

why not use Links adventure as a source out of all of the zelda's its probably got the most Rpg like features...

>>15315840
from the Link's Adventure wiki page:

Experience levels

In this installment, Link gains experience points to upgrade his attack, magic, and life by defeating enemies.[2] This feature is exclusive to Zelda II in the game series. He can raise each of these attributes to a maximum of eight levels. Raising a life level will decrease the damage Link receives when hit, raising a magic level will decrease the magic points (MP) cost of spells, and raising an attack level will strengthen his offensive power. Each statistic requires a different amount of experience to level up, with the life level requiring the least number of points to level and attack requiring the most.[2] When enough points are acquired to raise a statistic, the player may choose to level up that statistic or to cancel and continue gaining experience points towards the next level in another statistic. Once Link has raised a statistic to the maximum level of eight, further advances in that statistic will earn Link an extra life, without advancing the statistic itself.[2] Link can acquire up to four Heart Containers and up to four Magic Containers that permanently increase his life points and magic points. Other games in The Legend of Zelda series only allow Link to increase his strength through new weapons, items, and Heart Containers. Certain enemies drain Link's experience when they attack, but he will never lose a level once raised.[1] The game however only saves the level at which the player's experience is at and how much experience he needs for the next level, not how many experience points he currently has. So if the player has 750 experience points and the next level is 800, if the player saves and resets the console or loses all his lives, he will begin with 0 experience points and 800 for the next level.

>>15315888

Magic

In place of actively-used items, The Adventure of Link features spells for Link to use during action scenes. Each spell is learned from a different wise man in towns. Link often has to complete side-quests, such as retrieving lost items, before they will teach him their spells. Some spells are necessary for advancing beyond certain points in the game; both the Jump and Fairy spells allow Link to reach the top of ledges that are otherwise too high.

so that's there if anyone wants to use it as reference

>>15315840
>why not use Links adventure as a source out of all of the zelda's its probably got the most Rpg like features...

Precisely because it's more RPG-like than the other Zelda games -- it really doesn't feel much like a "proper" Zelda game at all, and the whole point of this project is to capture the classic Legend of Zelda feel in a P&P format.

>>15315840
Because Zelda's changed a lot since then. OOT is probably the better source.

>>15315840
TCN statted some of the spells from that game in an earlier thread, but I can't seem to find them.

BUMP

What do people think about the issue with magic and songs?

bump¡

>>15320171
It looks like the consensus is leaning toward using skill checks to see if you succeed (except for really trivial effects), and we should probably also include skill rank prerequisites for spells, since checks alone probably won't be sufficient for enforcing |magic| training. Even though the GM can control when the party gets a spell, there's nothing stopping the party mage from letting the heavy-weapons lug borrow the Bombos Medallion for awhile, and that's not right. For "learned" spells like Din's Fire it's not a problem, but a lot of spells are tied to a physical item which can be passed from character to character.
I don't think we'll need Virtue prerequisites, though -- since Virtues are the primary determiner of kept dice count, their contribution can probably be adequately reflected in the skill check.

Songs don't have the same issue of sharing amongst the party, so we might be able to get away with not having prerequisites, but it might not be a bad idea to use skill rank prerequisites anyway.

>>15321509
Maybe some technique lets non attack spells like Fairy Form or Nayru's Love be cast without a skill check, unless we want to use degrees of success for those somehow.

>>15322199
Techniques to use non-scaling stuff without a check should be fine. Probably a couple different ones, for different levels of difficulty that you get to bypass.

>>15321509
The big guy could certainly borrow the magic item, but the fact that he probably doesn't have a whole lot of points in mental or in magic would make it impossible for him to do much with it. I don't think we need skill prerequisites.

>>15322296
If we tune the skill check difficutlies right we may be able to go without prerequisites, but that could be tricky to pull off. We'd need somebody who's really good with crunch...

The main issue, as pointed out here >>15309154, is that skill checks alone wouldn't be able to make for an effective block against use of advanced spells unless we used absurd success number requirements. However, if we're ok with it being hypothetically possible (if pretty unlikely) for a character with no ranks in |magic| to use stuff like the Cane of Byrna and the Bombos Medallion, then skill checks alone could be sufficient.

>>15322438
>having any rank whatsoever in |Magic| is only needed when the requirement is more than six successes. Which is a crazy amount of successes.
You can only have as many successes as you have kept dice. Virtues are a lot harder to rank up than anything else and not all spells use the same virtue, so there is incentive to rank up |Magic| rather than trying to max out all of your virtues. Maybe we should mock up some "characters" with varying levels of skill in magic and have them all try to cast the same average difficulty spell and see if this is really as big of a problem as it's made out to be.

Don't mind me just bombin some dodongos.

Imma color it soon.

>>15290257
added this to the wiki
would like to propose the following changes to the wiki

Character Generation
>Acquire Skills: Skills start at rank 0. You get 6 points at character creation with which to purchase skills at a cost of 1 per rank. Skills may not exceed rank 3 at character creation and you may start with no more than one skill at rank 3.

Character Advancement
>Virtue: 5 × Next Level XP.
>Attribute: 3 × Next Level XP.
>Skill: 1 x Next Level XP.

something for the book i whipped up

I liek. Keep it up, I'm so hungry for info that I could eat an octarok.

>>15323701

i think that character advancement is too quick. Id put virtues up to 6 or 7 and attributes up to 4. As for skills isn't there already a table that scales with the level of the skill?

And she's done!

>>15324208
Its gorgeous

>>15324208

>>15324109

iirc, it was something like this:

(skill level)
(XP Cost to reach level)

1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 5
1 . 1 . 2 . 2 . 3

>>15324067
>>15324208
Wish I had a tablet so I could do up my drawings like you guys.

While I can't post pictures, what things should I draw for the time when I can post them? Maybe monsters.

>>15324674

Sounds good to me!

>>15324665
that was it. I like that a lot better than having skills cost a flat 1 point a level, because it encourages generalism.

>>15324674
Try a ReDead. See if you can mixthr Ocarina and Wind Waker styles.

>>15324772
not sure you actually read my other post carefully enough.
what I suggested here >>15323701 for skills at character creation has the exact same outcome as >>15324665 except it simpler to explain. and with the current chart being used for character advancement as well it's possible to max out a skill in 2 sessions, which is why I suggested a slightly steeper point cost (1 x next level xp) that actually encourages generalism even more, and makes it more difficult to get those final ranks. here's a comparison starting with the current table (rank, then cost, then total cost)

1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 5 . 6
1 . 1 . 2 . 2 . 3 . 3
1 . 2 . 4 . 6 . 9 .12

vs

1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 5 . 6
1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 5 . 6
1 . 3 . 6 .10.15.21

>>15324109
>As for skills isn't there already a table that scales with the level of the skill

>would like to propose the following -changes-...

>>15325007
This please, but maybe more OOT and less WW. Think a withered, naked corpse wearing a burial mask and with teeth exposed in a rictus grin.

>>15323701
>>15326229
let me put this all together so you can easily compare and contrast

>>15326955
Character Generation
Current................................................................................... Proposed
Virtues
4 points at 1 point per rank, no higher than 4 ranks.......... No change.
Attributes
4 points at 1 point per rank, no higher than 4 ranks.......... No change.
Skills
6 points starting at 1 per rank +1 at every odd rank......... 6 points at 1 per rank, no higher than 3 ranks
no higher than 3 ranks.......................................................... no more than 1 skill at 3 ranks (all possible outcomes identical)

Awarding XP and Character Advancement in next post...

>>15326968
Awarding XP
1 XP just for showing up to the session
1 XP for generally making steady progress in a session
1 XP each for smaller milestones (beating a miniboss, figuring out a major puzzle in a dungeon, completing a minor sidequest)
2 XP each for major milestones (beating a dungeon boss, completing a big sidequest)
1 XP for each instance of particularly good RP, creative problem-solving, etc.

Character Advancement
Current....................................... Proposed
Virtues (7 x next level).............. (5 x next level)
| 1 | .2. | .3. | .4. | .5. | .6. |........... | 1 | .2. | .3. | .4. | .5. | .6. | Rank
| 0 | 14 | 21 | 28 | 35 | 42 |........... | 0 | 10 | 15 | 20 | 25 | 30 | XP Cost
| 0 | 14 | 35 | 63 | 98 |140|........... | 0 | 10 | 25 | 45 | 70 |100| Total XP

Attributes (4 x next level)......... (3 x next level)
| 1 | .2. | .3. | .4. | .5. | .6. |........... | 1 | .2. | .3. | .4. | .5. | .6. | Rank
| 0 | .8. | 12 | 16 | 20 | 24 |........... | 0 | .6. | .9. | 12 | 15 | 18 | XP Cost
| 0 | .8. | 20 | 36 | 56 | 80 |........... | 0 | .6. | 15 | 27 | 42 | 60 | Total XP

Skills (+1 every odd level)........ (1 x next level)
| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | .6. |................... | 1 | 2 | 3 | .4. | .5. | .6. | Rank
| 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | .3. |................... | 1 | 2 | 3 | .4. | .5. | .6. | XP Cost
| 1 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 9 | 12 |................... | 1 | 3 | 6 | 10 | 15 | 21 | Total XP

>>15327025
>>15326968
Those proposed changes look good to me.

>>15327025

I still dont like the propposed skill advancement required xp, it makes skill rank very hard to up from fourth rank, skill rank arent very powerful by themselves and if one would require tha much points to get to 4 and up it would make qualifying for techs quite hard already.

>>15327675
I don't think it's really that bad -- even the biggest step (rank 5 to rank 6) can easily be accomplished in two sessions, and possibly even one if you're particularly productive. Maxing out your primary skill (which would start at 3 ranks) would still only take four or five sessions, and quite plausibly as few as two or three.

>>15327675
any tech with a skill req higher than 4 is suppose to be hard to get. that's the purpose of skill requirements.
skills are not as insignificant as people seem to be making them out to be. look that the XP cost of getting +3k3 via skills compared to the XP cost of the alternative method of getting an additional 3k3. also consider that skills still give you the extra kept dice regardless of what Virtue you use with it since most skills can use any of the three virtues.

you guys are awesome. please, keep on doing this

>>15328225
here's a breakdown of how I think of skill requirements

1 - the Technique requires a minimal level of competence in the skill
2 - you should probably have some level of confidence in your skill level to perform this Technique
3 - you should be at least somewhat specialized in the skill in order to learn this Technique
4 - to learn this Technique you should have some dedication to the study of this skill(spent xp on it after character creation) and a significant level of competence
5 - the Technique requires an impressive level of expertise to perform
6 - only the truly masterful can learn this Technique

>>15327025
I think it's worthwhile to have skill advancement progress like virtues and attributes (# x next level) to keep things uniform. I also think that it's the better choice since raising skills should require more of an investment than it currently does.
For similar reasons, I also believe that CharGen should follow the proposed skill allocation of 1 for 1 with a max of 3 in one skill.

I think the minimum XP cost for Techniques should be 2, and each player should start with 2 XP to buy one low level Technique from any category, but it must be spent at character creation and can't be saved for later. What should be the maximum XP cost for Techniques?

>>15329328
how about a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 9?

>>15327025
Hm, I'm convinced now that i look at it put together like that. The new skill progression is fine with me, especially since it will make everything simpler to calculate for the players.

>>15329328
the most expensive techniques shouldn't be more expensive than 10-15 imho. That way a character can learn them in a handful of sessions, anything else would take an agonizingly long time.

>>15329418
how about 12? I figure Skill/Attribute requirements will be the primary barriers to entry for top tier Techniques, and by the time players are ready to buy those they'll probably have at least a small surplus of experience saved up.

>>15329418

It should also be taken into account that the highest level Techs might have prereq's that would make its difficult to get them without effort anyway. Therefore, such high costs MAY not be appropriate...

>>15329483
12 isn't an unreasonable cost, Its something that a player can save up in 3-4 sessions once he has the skill requirement out of the way.

>>15329414
>>15329475
minimum xp cost for skills and attributes is 1 and 6 respectively and maximum xp cost for skills and attributes is 6 and 18. Setting Techniques at a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 12 puts it right in the middle between skills and attributes, which seems appropriate to me.

>>15328453
>>15329529
I'm going to add these to the brainstorming section under Techniques on the wiki later as a general guide for anyone who wants to submit techniques, unless anyone has any objections for which you have several hours to make your case.

I believe 2 to 8 XP was settled as a good price range for techniques in an earlier thread, though this probably didn't make it onto the wiki. I definitely wouldn't put the minimum any lower than 2, and 12 seems a bit high for a technique cost, given that any technique advanced enough to justify a higher cost will also have hefty prerequisites, so 8 should probably be sufficient. Techniques should be something you can get fairly frequently, at least if you're only going for the most basic ones.

bump

>>15329787

I agree 100% since techs already need an skill prerrequisite, they shouldnt cost less than 2xp or more than 8xp.