What ever happened to this project? I loved the idea of it.
No talking allowed.
If you post it, they will come.The redone system still has a lot to be decided. The head namefags might be around, still.
>>19797429Well I hope they do, hell I'd even be willing to help out with it if possible.
>>19797267The project faded over time since it wasn't really going a direction any one group liked. The attributes, stats, they were not working out too well. The game mechanics were full of game references, and not concentrating enough on the actual gameplay.Seriously, they were so interested in "the theme" they forgot the goal was "Play the Legend of Zelda, tabletop, and I want to be a Goron with racing and Hammer skills!" please let me be a frekkin goron!
>>19797267Hey, my logo!
>>19797492Well that sucks.
>>19797492Eh, I won't disagree with that. Though, honestly, one of the stated design goals originally (I originally worked on only the Races and how to handle Hearts and Defenses, and most of my ideas got thrown out anyway) was 'Let's make it feel like Zelda, not like d20 with Zelda trappings'. Which was fine. But it did get bogged down as design stuff got changed around. I think Hearts went through like three revisions, damage went through like 3, skills and magic... it was a mess.
>>19797563that's rather unfortunate.
>>19797520Yeah, we should start over on the attributes and not worry so much on trying to them the base attributes on the triforce.The base attributes/skill system should be entirely about what you are capable of doing in the game.Like we got the one Link in Twilight Princess, can only move like most people, but can fight while moving and can fight mounted on a horse. Then Skyward sword length, tough as a Goron, can use extra energy to sprint like the mailman... cannot move and swing his sword at the same time. Ye Olde original game link, forward strike specialist, a fencer with a broadsword that shoots lasers, the ultimate sword and boarder really. Ocarina of Time link, can horseback archery but has no idea how to use his sword or most gear from up there, incredible acrobat but doesn't learn what his ascended form teaches Twilight Link until sometime after the game.We have to make a system that can represent all those links, or a mixture of different link skills, as well as the species we want playable like Deku, Goron, Zora, and Gerudo.
>>19797609I think triforce should have influence on the game and characters but not as the games main stats, that takes things a bit far and makes it hard build the system.
>>19797609See, I really liked the usage of the Triforce attributes to represent physical ability (Power), mental strength (Wisdom) and knowhow/likability (Courage). Tying that to skills isn't terrible (but I'm primarily a WoD player, so Attribute + Skill feels the best to me). Honestly, though, I could see using a derivative of the Cortex+ system (or whatever is in Marvel Heroic RPG) for it and being alright that way too (it even fits with Courage/Power/Wisdom as reassignments for Solo/Buddy/Team). Were I not working on actual Job conversions and system writeups like Sphere Grid and License Board for Super Console, I might be interested in fiddling with this project.
>>19797563Hearts weren't fucked with too much. We covered the heart and magic meter easily, really.Everything in game is earned through in game accomplishments. Defeating a Ghoma Queen would get a whole heart. The first time you catch 5 cuccos for a lady with alergies gets a heart piece or bottle. Bottles are glass, rare, tough to break with the glass so thick. whatever they make that glass out of it's pretty much plexiglass, nigh unbreakable... can't hurt anyone if you 'get smart' and chuck it at them. It just bounces.
>>19797669An Attribute+Skill setup is good and I like it too. But trying to force everything into the triforce based attributes wasn't capturing the feel of the game, and is therefore against the stated goal of the game.
>>19797669I only have basic knowledge of that system but it sounds interesting!
Wait how the heck is it supposed to work as a party? One guy does all the long range stuff and another is the bombs guy?
>>19797741Same setting, multiple heroes instead of just the one?
>>19797714Yeah, that I will agree with; as much as I liked it, it didn't go with the design feel.>>19797672Maybe I'm meshing the damage/armor/lessening of damage and hearts revisions together. I kinda dropped out of development due to RL, which always gets me.>>19797741You could do it that way, or you could be any combination of whatever. People with bows, daggers, swords, lances, whatever weapons they chose to use.
>>19797741Kind of. But not really. It all depends on the GM. The mechanics of the game need to be laid down fast. Because the real haul of the project is converting every zelda dungeon ever into it.And then making more.And never stopping....I had a vision for this... oh well...
>>19797854Uh... isn't that for stuff that requires money to get going? Nintendo is not going to license a Zelda RPG.
>>19797854...ok. Get me the money and this will become my whole thing. Shouldn't cost too much.
>>19797909Nintendo won't let you.
>>19797905It was a joke, I know it would never happen.Though this actually going some where again would be awesome.
>>19797905SHHHHH he was gonna do it! Just work on the project and when someone gives you money don't question it! Better yet, say thank you and be grateful.
>>19797802Just seems odd your entire party could be replaced with a mute child prodigy. Barring Four Swords the series doesn't really strike as really compatible with both multiplayer and skill specialisations. Unless you left it at only one slingshot/hookshot/boomerang/etc seemingly in existence.
>>19797931Even if what you said was true, if the mute boy isn't there then it's gonna take the 3 or 4 of use to make it through this dungeon. Also this dungeon is several times larger and the puzzles require people cooperating.While there hasn't been much multiplayer in Zelda, even the singleplayer games have provided examples of requiring cooperation to solve the puzzles.>>19797922Yeah i know. It'd be nice though.
>>19797931It's one of those considerations that was discussed ad nauseum, especially by people who were going 'Why do Zelda, it's about one guy?' And my response was always 'Yeah, the games are. that doesn't mean scenarios set in the Zelda universe have to be, especially in games where you have organizations like the Knights of Hyrule (LttP) or pirate crews (WW) and such'. It's one of those considerations that you really have to look at and go 'Yeah, this is one of the things we'll move away from thematically in order to make it more accessible'.
>>19798009Exactly! People didn't fall in love with Link, it's the world he's in and the uniqueness of it all. That's what makes it perfect for roleplaying in!
>>19798052And honestly, I've had a post OoT setting treatment done that incorporates stuff from future games altered to fit the post-OoT/MM setting, such as the Cult of Ganon led by the dread wizard Agahnim, supported by traitors to the Hylian Races, led by the Four Masked Generals, who were a Zora, Goron, Deku Scrub and Gerudo wearing the Masked Beast remains from MM (Mechanical Goron Minotaur Goht, Piranha Masked Zora Gyorg, etc.)
I think a D10 roll and keep would've fit this a lot better. D6 R&K is awkward.>>19798186that's badass!
>>19798213And as a plus you can steal L5R's mechanics wholesale! Tada, balance achieved!Not that anyone is going to actually step up and pull this together though.
>>19798186More information is needed.I do wish I could play something like this.
>>19798009Also, as said, there are plenty of examples where Link worked with others to get through things. Expand the dungeons and puzzles and there you go...>Deku is not tall enough to get up that ledge, Goron needs to toss him and then we can get the ladder.>None of us have anyway to get through these plants. We need a chain chomp.>There are already 5 of us, and we still need 5 monkeys to complete this broken bridge.>Ok, these switches only work if we stay standing on them. So two of us can stand on them, and the other two go through to the cage to face the Iron Knuckle. The two people heavy enough for the switches are not ranged so we need another solution if they want to add to the fight. We can try luring an armos in here, so our Goron hammerguy can go fight the knuckle. Our ranged Deku guy we might be able to add weight to so he can hold a switch and fight......and an Iron Knuckle isn't even a boss, adding a puzzle for his terrain advantage can make him insane.
>>19798213Heh, thanks. The Happy Mask Salesman was a planned antagonist; Agahnim was Ganon's avatar from the Sacred Realm; the Masked Traitors led mostly the Beast Races, but there were some other Race Traitors in the Cult... this was for a MUSH (large online text-based game), so Link, etc. were appable, but would be played alongside everything ranging from Hylian bards and soldiers, to Goron smiths and warriors, Zora merchants, Deku Scrub merchants and thieves, even Kokiri. Easy enough to alter the setting to be one of the 'Link has not been called yet' or 'Link is off doing other crap' setting. Also, FUCK YOU CAPTCHA. I DID NOT MISTYPE YOU.
>>19798269>chain chompLINK'S AWAKENING FTW!
>>19798244Stealing L5R's mechanics would be Ideal for R&K in my opinion.That's just me though.
>>19798269That doesn't sound so bad actually. Was skeptical about it before but if somebody can stretch their brain enough to come up with enough dungeons and puzzles like that then it could totally work.Is the page on 1d4chan a relatively accurate picture of the progress on this?
I was a fan of having the Power/Wisdom/Courage attributes, but I can see how they would have made shit complicated. Maybe move them into separate bonuses for physical, mental, and social actions respectively or something?Like, Skill Roll for attacking gets it's character's power rating as an extra bonus to whatever else they have?
So, anyone out there taking charge, taking notes and going to make this?Or y'all going to chatter on and on until the next "Anyone remember this? What happened to it?" thread?
>>19798404It could always be split like L5R having each Triforce be a "Ring" that is broken up into 2 different stats?
>>19798428Chatter, I have a couple other projects and I am moving to Japan.
>>19798381Not that guy, BUT CONTRIBUTING MY TWO CENTSDungeon design was actually one of the things I was most curious about. I'm playing Wind Waker right now (with the intent to complete it this time) and while I've contemplated the idea of creating a dungeon for some other game system (such as 4e) that would take the feel of going from room to room in search of keys, the biggest gripe I found was the combat. Zelda combat is all real-time reflex testing, but perhaps it was my inexperience with other game systems that prevented me from seeing how one could create that "Zelda feel" at the table while battling bulbous-headed plants.
>>19798428I guess I'll take charge until somebody else shows up who wants to. Preferably that'd be somebody who worked on this before.First order of buisness is to establish what we need to work on. From the chatter in the thread, it looks like skills will need looking at. Anything else?Also post what you think about the current skill system.
>>19798448Eh, I never had a problem with it. But I run a lot of games where the layout and positioning is all imagination, rather than a grid like 4e or other D&D variants, so for my group it's not a big deal at all.
>>19798496Chatter makes it seem like attributes need to be looked at.
>>19798448Someone who is simulationist, and already looks at things like "how do i translate a modern firefight to the tabletop" doesn't see this as any different of an issue.Different characters will be good at different things. One character times his strikes better. Another can just smash the deku baba with his hammer. The last still sees Deku Babas with those "first hour of the game" eyes with his wooden equipment and terrible combat skills, without the others there this would be a heroic challenge for him. Until he gets better gear or better skill at striking the weak points he won't be able to handle the deku babas in a single round like his comrades, but he can at least knock one up to allow an ally to get a vine strike in.
>>19798499That sounds neat. I have little experience with narrative-focused gameplay (mainly due to my group being the dungeon crawling variant with a decent dose of roleplay) so maybe I'll try that out sometime. Maybe have them fall into lava and respawn losing a healing surge.
>>19798496>I guess I'll take charge until somebody else shows up who wants to. Preferably that'd be somebody who worked on this before.>First order of buisness is to establish what we need to work on. Either you're in charge and going to make this project your bitch, or you're not in charge and you're going to let the /tg/ hivemind faff about. Make a decision.
>>19798519Skills, attributes, whatever they're called. I'm talking about the 9 combinations of Physical, Mental, and Social and Power, Wisdom, and Courage that you roll with to do stuff.
>>19798560LOL, Why do I like that 'lose a healing surge' thing? :) And I get that; my group and I play a lot of NWoD, BESM, and Scion, so positioning is all about narrative.
>>19798576It's a great technique given it's their true life force in 4e. After a battle they can just pump themselves back up to full, but without their delicious surges they become much more wary.I have always been more into White Wolf's fluff than gameplay, but I'm hoping to take the Vampire: The Dark Ages for a spin, even if just a one-shot, sometime to get a feel for the mechanics.And from the posts it sounds like we may want to focus on defining what things are first.
Useful Links:http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive.html?tags=Legend%20of%20Zelda%20RPGhttp://1d4chan.org/wiki/Legend_of_Zelda_RPGAs far as I know, the only two threads that come after the version on 1d4chan are the two revival threads. Can someone confirm or deny this?
>>19798653OH GOD THAT FUCKING DICE MECHANIC!THAT IS THE FIRST THING TO GO!The game needs to be a lot simpler and more fluid. Along with the completely inflexible attribute system we also had that horribly crunchy dice mechanic. Just make it additive for Nayru's sake! It needs to feel like the game, and really the game had a very, VERY simple stat system. You can hit things, some things hit harder... THE END! Zelda fans want to play ZELDA, not YAHTZEE!
For now, let's roll with the definitions as used on 1d4chan.The current issue is the various combinations of virtues and attributes is too complicated, and what it should be replaced with. Some options include getting rid of attributes and using the virtues as bonus boosts, giving skills a parent virtue. If you want to put in your thoughts about this, now's the time
>>19798813I completely agree with this.
>>19798813>Nayru's sake>THE END!>not YAHTZEEStop.
>>19798820Don't crowdsource too much, dude. Just remember, your guiding star is "what is in the game... how do I play that on tabletop?" always go that way! The only reason I am not taking this over is RL issues, otherwise I would love to take this and would really, really appreciate being one of the guiding forces behind this to help prevent shit like the current clunky as hell system.
>>19798829>>19798813Holy shit, it is like Yatzee. Boomer, you have a suggested replacement or will I have to work on one?And do people have any preference between rolling a target number or getting a target number of successes?
>>19798813Hah, I remember posting back in the original threads and telling everyone how fucking horrible the dice mechanic was but a the swarm of faggots working on it went buttberserk when called on it and couldn't understand how their special little snowflake idea was so horrible
>>19798888Making changes without first submitting them for comment, even if you're in charge, is a great way to get shitty game mechanics.That's my philosophy.I might not post for a while because I'm working on a replacement skill/attribute system.
>>19798889For the sake of simplicity, we can use one or two D6 as a working thing, and that gets added to stats/skills whatever. It's actually easier to change the dice mechanic and ranges later (it's an algebra thing) then to change the base mechanics.Pretty much, It's a lot easier to change the X and Y in the formula than the symbols we put between them.
>>19798889My preference is that you grow some balls and learn to make decisions all by yourself.>Making changes without first submitting them for comment, even if you're in charge, is a great way to get shitty game mechanics.Meanwhile, dithering about waiting for ~/TG/ APPROVAL~ for everything is a great way to get nothing accomplished.
>>19798991He said he wants comment, not full on approval. Already we are off to a better start then the last guys and they got pretty far.
huh. I would very much like a LoZ roleplaying game as such.So far, we simply used mutants and masterminds for our round (2e) at lower powerlevels with some more powerpoints so people could play all the races without problems.Well, the world we play in is basically a crossover of wind waker and majoras mask, about half a century after wind waker located, and after they actually found another continent to live on and have adventures, and discovered most of the races they thought extinct, like the kokiri. Shortly after they declared it their new home, Zelda became the queen of the land they claimed, with Link as the king (yeah, they actually got together and have a son in this setting), however Link dissapeared about 15 years ago without trace.The group is consistend of one kokiri with fairy companion (ok, sidekick), a goron, a zora, a rito and a buisness scrub deku (so he could have arms and a leaf monocle)For whatever reason noone wanted to play an actual human, but the kokiri got himself a horse pretty soon as everyone complained about the lack of one.Its pretty wacky with all the races around, and the adventures are mostly for the sake of adventuring, treasurehunting and occasionally saving some people. Although recently we found a temple and are currently discussing if temples are ok to explore, tooSo far, the system works well for us, but Im sure this would work great, too, if it ever gets finished
>>19799096Could you clear something up for me, aren't Kokiri supposed to die if they leave the forest? Did you just hand wave that away as childish stories or am I mistaken about it?
>>19799157Isn't that a myth?
>>19799157Pretty much. Also, in WW, the Koroks left their island. They weren't Kokiri anymore, but still...>>19798991Fuck you too. What you want is somebody to make the game for you and not to bother you while he's making it.
>>19799157I -think- it was decided that it was just the Great Deku Tree's way of keeping the Kokiri safe, i.e. "Don't go out of the forest or you'll DIE... (because I can't protect you out there.)"When the Deku Tree died and Link helped clean up the world, the Kokiri ventured out and made connections with the other races.At least, that's what I remember from the other threads.
Right, so attributes are basically gone, pretty much subsumed into the virtues. Each virtue gives a bonus equal to it's level on applicable rolls. Virtues also cap at three due to the the new syatem. GM has final say on what bonus applies.To give an example, Power would give bonuses to rolls for damage, intimidation, feats of strength, and the like.Wisdom would give bonuses to rolls to pick up on hidden things or suspicious behavior, to research something, or to determine a creature's weak point.Courage would give bonuses to rolls to hit, tests of skill or luck, and, of course, fear checks if there's a monster that has fear magic or whatever.
>>19799191Calm yourself. Wisdom. I handled it.Like I said earlier, 1 or 2 d6. Also, gotta look at the games... I shall start perusing gamefaqs for numbers.
>>19799278Definitely 2d6. Six possible outcomes doesn't seem enough.
>>19799267See, that was close to the problem right there.What's the difference between a link attack roll and a goron punch and a gerudo sword swing and a goron hammer smash and a zora fin strike? Way more than a three point range.Is everything pretty much going to be skills+feats+racial abilities with the triforce bonuses just kind of hanging there?
>>19799364>See, that was close to the problem right there.Are you saying what I have is close to the problem, or what I changed was closed to the problem?I'm assuming the former for now.Well, I think so. Aren't there differences in the damage of Goron link versus regular link, link with master sword vs. link with giant's knife, and such? And where else would the triforce bonuses go if they weren't floating there? (and yeah, I'm aware the last sentence implies that there absolutely mst be triforce bonuses, but I don't mean to imply that.)
>>19799461The point is, do we need triforce bonuses if we are going to have stats that range of 0-10 at the lowest estimate for now.
>>19799497To clarify what i meant, picture this.We have a human with a sword and a goron with a hammer. Should a human with basic sword outdamage a goron with a basic hammer because he put 3 points to his power?We need to start completely over with the attributes, abandon the old system (at least the messed up triforce and dice mechanic) entirely, and look at the game we are basing this on.
>>19799497Well, to be honest, I can't see a Legend of Zelda RPG that didn't have stats of the three virtues tied into it. And players would only get one point to start, and high-difficulty DCs could be adjusted to account for them.But maybe you're right. The skills could also be organized under the virtues.
>>19799589Well if you can;t imaging it, just imagine how much of a role the TriForce played in the games......in some games you get ONE piece of it and it does nothing other than be aquired......it's the MacGuffin. No it does not need game mechanics based on it. It has never had any in game effect other than "the goal".
Old hand chiming in. I never used a name, but I was there from the very first thread.I agree that the stats system needs an overhaul. I used to love the whole virtue/attribute roll/keep thing, but after taking a break from it and looking on it again, it's definitely pretty clunky.However, the triforce virtues should definitely stay in one way or another. Even if they don't have a significant effect in the video games, they're a hugely recognizable part of the franchise, and making them part of the core stats of this game instantly identifies the system as something uniquely Zelda. They don't have to be a huge influence that single-handedly defines your character's capabilities, but they should definitely play a tangible role.
>>19799538Seeing as 3 points of power means he's a mountain of muscle and paragon of the virtue of power, yeah, he should do more damage.If it helps, the increases to this would be obscenely rare and hard to get, and I might put in requirements for levels 2 and 3.
>>19799649NoNo no noNo noSeriously, it is amazing to see how the flops of licensed games actually get produced. I had no idea it was done subconsciously and with the best intentions but that is exactly what you are saying you want to make.We are NOt making "an RPG by the way it has Zelda Refences"We are making "THE LEGEND OF ZELDA! THE RPG!"It is not good enough to throw in a Zelda reference "just because". And it is terrible to try and base the mechanics off of a non-sequitor Zelda Reference. Anything we do must be "true to the source material". It cannot merely "mention the source material repeatedly".So, until a way that is true to the material can be thought of to include the triforce in there, forget it entirely for now. We don't want the foundation of the game to be a complete misplacement of our intentions.
>>19799617>Implying Link could have done half the crazy shit he did without being the chosen of the triforce of courage
>>19799699Have fun making your own then.
>>19799662Just three points? Then what about the full range of everything. Deku, moblins of varying types, gerudo, sheikah, regular humans, all the way up to Gorons. Are gorons just all naturally at three?Read this >>19799699Please heed it. Refrain from making "Zelda References". Do not make a random "RPG in a Zelda Wrapper". Make "The Legend of Zelda RPG".
>>19799699Wait. Let me get this straight. You're arguing *against* using the Triforce as a thematic element of a character because something something harblblblbleargh.I'm trying to understand your reasoning here, but its making my head hurt a little.
>>19799713The Links without the Triforce of Courage did just fine.
>>19799699The thing is, the video games test player capability, not character capability. There's not much in the way of "stats" to translate to a pen-and-paper RPG format (unless you count The Adventure of Link, but anyone would agree that one doesn't really fit the typical conception of a Zelda game in the first place). How do you define character stats based on such a context? Zelda is defined by gameplay -- the dungeons, the items, the puzzles -- not really anything remotely resembling a stat system. Thus, we have plenty of "artistic license", if you will, when if comes to building the skeleton of stats that allows the player to experience that gameplay. It's not like including a reference to the Triforce in this one area where we have liberty to play around with things a little means the whole game is going to be Generic RPG #3289: Now With Zelda References. It's waaaay to early to make such an assumption. Take a chill pill.
>>19799807Ok, as it stands, the triforce mehcanic does not work. But you really really really want the triforce in there somewhere.And yet YOU can't explain why or where. Please do not break the entire game and make it as unZelda as possible because you want to throw Zelda References everywhere. We want "A Zelda Game" not " A Game that Mentions Zelda A Lot but otherwise has nothing to do with it."
>>19799747Gorons, for example, would have a racial specialty for strength and a racial weakness for balance, or something like that. Or an actual bonus to strength, if such a stat is added.
>>19799821You're thinking, good.The point is, all videogames use statistics and numbers, right there from the beginning. Just making them more background doesn't mean they are not there. I give all the info in my posts to answer most of the questions you asked, but here it is again.Deku, weak, much weaker than goron.Goron, strong, much stronger than Deku.Need to accurately represent the differences between the two of them as shown in the game. Need to not hamstring them or box them in by giving them only three stats with an extremely limited range, as was done in the last project and as is being argued for to do again.
>>19799831YOU are the only one claiming that this will somehow make the game un-Zeldalike and generic (and not supporting it at all beyond 'it isn't in the games bluh bluh bluh').
>>19799831>Ok, as it stands, the triforce mehcanic does not work.Okay, so you fix it so it works? "It doesn't work now, so it never will, better give up guys" is a shitty design philosophy.>And yet YOU can't explain why or where.Because I just came into this thread a few minutes ago, that's why. I know you're a tripfag so this is hard to understand, but Anonymous is more than one person. I don't know who you're arguing against here.>Please do not break the entire game and make it as unZelda as possible because you want to throw Zelda References everywhere. We want "A Zelda Game" not " A Game that Mentions Zelda A Lot but otherwise has nothing to do with it."So you want to remove the Triforce from a Zelda game because using elements of Zelda in a Zelda game is referencing the source material (oh noes!) and that irredeemably ruins everything?Thank God you weren't whispering in Gygax's ear, otherwise DnD wouldn't have any Dragons in it.
>>19799831"As it stands"? Dude, we don't even have a base mechanic to work with here. The old roll/keep mess is being scrapped, I think we're all agreed there. All we know is that the Triforce is going to be involved. Some way. Somehow. We don't have a dice mechanic yet. Neither do we know what other stats there will be -- just that the Triforce virtues will be part of it. Once again, chill pill. Wait til we have a more complete idea of how things will work before claiming that this idea is ruining the game.Look at it this way -- when someone suggests making a Zelda RPG, one of the first things people want to include, before coming up with any other mechanics or stats, is Triforce virtues as stats. Happened in the original incarnation of the game, and it's happening again now. That should tell you something. It may not reflect how things work in the video games, but the inclusion of a Triforce stat is the polar opposite of "unZelda".
Just chiming in to say I really wouldn't mind a generic rpg system refluffed with Zelda things, I really don't see the big deal. The game is already fundementally different than the game series on the merit of being party and roleplaying based.It'll end up being the same rainbow coalition of murder hobos no matter how much you fluff and tweak the mechanics.
>>19799887Nowhere did I say that these would be the only three skills. That'd be retarded.Does adding stats such as Strength, and other stats like that make it too generic for your taste?
I think the problem with a Zelda RP would be too many people wanting to play Link... or Link relative of some number or some recolor mary-sue of.
>>19799924I think the base assumption is there isn't/never was a Hero of Time/Seasons/Winds/Infinite Pockets. On the other hand if that's what people want to do and the players and gm are cool with it then what's the problem right?
>>19799913What people want to see when they walk in the door is "The Triforce" What people want to play is "The Legend of Zelda"The Triforce is not the backbone. It's the face. Don't shove it into the system backbone. That is all I am saying. Yes, please, include it somewhere, as said. But include it somewhere appropriate, as said.
>>19799976So what would you base your Dream LoZ Game on? The sounds Link makes? The buttons on your favorite console's gamepad?Please, do enlighten us as to what the "backbone" of LoZ is.
>>19799924Once you've made the game, and sent it into the world, there is nothing you can do to stop asshats and that guys from also playing it along with the target audience. The Link Expies are beyond your control and beyond the focus of making the game.
>>19799915Personally, I don't think it's so much about the core mechanics as it is about gameplay. A big thing that we kept going back to in the original project was the handling of items. Unlike in most games, where items are add-ons that you basically have free reign to choose for yourself to customize your character on top of innate abilities, items in a Zelda RPG would be tightly controlled by the GM in the form of quest rewards and treasure found in dungeons. And of course, items would be key for navigating the (heavily puzzle-based) dungeons.Songs and magic were to be handled similarly in the original project, which apparently got changed in the last reboot, but I felt was a good idea.
>>19799976What I'm getting from this is that if its in a Zelda game, don't include it because that's a reference and that's bad.
>>19800000The world and the Dungeons obviously... Are you really that dense? The Triforce is a Macguffin that literally does nothing in the games other than look pretty for the most part. It by no means has to be the main stats.
>>19799966Eventually you get people fighting for the spotlight and arguing over who is the real legendary hero. It's like having a DBZ game with several girls catfighting over who really is married to trunks because they all wrote it into their backstory.
>>19800021Dropping your trip doesn't make your arguments any better, you should know.
>>19799976Personally, I don't see having Triforce stats in the system backbone as being mutually exclusive with the idea of a LoZ tabletop game. Quite the opposite, really -- if you want to talk about "background" stats in LoZ, you're basically just looking at a sort of physics engine plus some form of health/damage tracking. Translated to RPG form, pretty much any generic stat system that can reasonably model a person's capabilities would do. May as well just use GURPS or some shit. Adding Triforce stats is a great way to add a uniquely Zelda flavor to what would otherwise be a pretty generic core mechanical backbone.
>>19800021And if you don't like it being part of the main stats, then houserule them the fuck out. God knows it'll be easy enough given how they're implemented as bonuses capped at three.
>>19800000NOW WE ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE!So, you're playing the game, seeing triforces everywhere. Do you "do a triforce"? What is your "triforce skill"?No, no, wait... that's not right...In all of the games, it's the equipment and how you use it. Imagine yourself playing the game.Do you triforce the enemy? Triforce your sword at the enemy? Triforce the puzzles. ...you swing your sword at the enemy, hit the switch, get the key, open the door, on the floor, everybody bomb the dodongo....you don't triforce the Dodongo either. You bomb dodongos. I just love to bomb dodongos.
The Zelda games are puzzle games at heart, so maybe allow each character to start with one zelda-tool (grappling hook, ice wand, block-making wand, boomerang, etc) and maybe a weapon if the tool can't serve as such. That way they'd have to cooperate to solve whatever puzzles you come up with. Might need to base the first phew dungeons around their starter tools, though, until they pick up enough new tools to make do.Just a suggestion if someone want to make their own homebrew; I don't have it in me to start a whole new zelda project right now.
>>19800076Look buddy, I'm not sure if you're high or really tired or just trolling but I have no idea what you think the discussion is even about anymore. I am one thousand percent sure nobody was suggesting anything like that.
>>19800076So trash everything that isn't an item or Link. Got it. .Show's over guys, we've got our game right here!
>>19800076Boomer. I'm going to ask you to stop complaining or leave.You are the only one that has a problem with this, you are perfectly capable of houseruling it out, and we're wasting time we could be spending on new things.
>>19800076You may not "triforce" the Dodongo, but you do have the COURAGE to stand and face a fire-breathing lizard several times your size whose armored scales block your sword. You do have the WISDOM to strike at the weak point on its tail or wait until its mouth opens and toss in a bomb. The POWER of your cuts or your bomb's explosion is what does the Dodongo in.The thing about the Triforce is that its virtues are very flexible concepts that can be applied to a variety of things, hence why they're perfect as an ancillary stat incorporated into a more typical set of stats.
>>19800113I hope he's trolling, I really do. Because I don't want to live in a world where people as autistic as that exist.>If it isn't explicitly a mechanic in the vidya, you CANNOT use it as a mechanic in the RPG.>themes? imagery? creativity? Link didn't use those to bomb dodongos! DENIED
>>19800135...you think you are fighting me, but you are on the right path...
The drama in here is more entertaining than any game you guys could make! Keep it up it's delicious!
>>19800125Just ignore him or else this isn't going to go anywhere good. Tripfag's gonna fag no matter what you or any of us say.
>>19800088That was more or less the plan for the original project, and definitely something worth keeping. Start with a limited set of items, and the GM plans dungeons around what items the party has access to and distributes new items in said dungeons and/or through side quests. Occasionally put significant items up in stores with limited stock (like how you sometimes get your first bomb bag that way in some games and such), but mostly markets would be for restocking consumables like potions and ammo.
I vote health containers have to be bought/found
>>19800155For somebody who's busy with your own projects and moving to Japan, you sure are invested in making sure we make exactly the game you want.
>>19800155You are aware that it was pretty much always the plan to have the triforces as auxiliary stats?Ones in addition to the ones we're going to start working on now?Strength is a given, but only need one mental stat. Intelligence, as wisdom is a virtue. I'll be thinking of more, in the meantime post any you can think of.
>>19800228That makes me feel a lot better. It was starting to sound exactly like the last project, and that ended horribly. I didn't want to see this one go the exact same way.
>>19800228Aslo, I had enough straw stuffed in my position to start a farm.
>>19800228>IntelligenceThat's a boring name. Give it something a dozen other games haven't used, like Wit or Crafty/Craftyness or Clever or whatever that isn't Intelligence.>>19800197Make them rewards to quests. I'd like to see the game encourage players to get attached to the land instead of just rolling in and killing shit. Heart containers could be bought, but they're also a reward for connectiong to where you are and helping improve it by helping key NPCs. Also for exploring/learning things.
I like the idea of attributes based on each end of the triforce - courage, power, and wisdomhigh courage allows you to be dexterous, swift, crafty and charismatichigh power makes you strong and resilient, wisdom makes you insightful, knowledgeable, and able to perform some magics or use magical tools i would say by adding to dice rolls based on attribute valuesskills wouldnt be too hard, the problem is that there is a large arsenal of tools and sorting them might be a challenge. courage:>dodging>diplomacy>archery>gadgets like the grapple or boomerangpower:>swordplay>blockan'>use of heavy weapons like ball and chain>use of bawmbz wisdom:>knowledge of lore>magic evidenced in the game like shapeshifting, teleporting, summoning from the twilight realm etc etc>consorting with powerful beings >knowing many languages and then artifacts like the ocarina, the wand, the mask, and other such shit could be inherently better used in the hands of someone with alot of points in a corresponding attribute, and you get points added to rolls for that. the wand works better for the wise, the master sword works better for the powerful, the ocarina works best for the courageous putting in actual points for this is questionable and open to suggestion - does anyone like this train of thought?
>>19800320I also think it's best to let players choose 5 or 6 skills they want to focus on rather than preset classes, and they can call themselves whatever. I also believe in racial bonuses such that a goron is going to be stronger than a wise gerudo who is wiser than a brave elf whatever etc
>>19800320This post looks sexy
Ok, so Boomer (who, by the way, has been in on this since the first thread) is arguing against using the Triforce as the main stats, not against not using the Triforce (bar as an item, of course).Tea Homebrew Guy (who I've never seen, but seems pretty chill) has been misunderstood as arguing for using the Triforce as the main stats, but is really arguing for using them as a supplement to the main course, as it were.These are NOT mutually exclusive, unless I'm misreading this whole thread.What I'm seeing is that NO ONE wants to just refluff the Tri-stat System (Body, Mind, Soul) into Zelda. Right?
>>19800242Nah, dude, we're all with you on that one. Even me, and I was crazy gung-ho about the whole <Attribute> <Virtue> setup back then. Let my love of categorization get the better of me, I guess.>>19800228I think "Wits" is probably better than "Intelligence". Keeps things a bit more broad, and I think broad and general is the better side to lean toward for core stats.Other than Strength and Wits, Charisma and Agility are also probably good. Maybe also Willpower, if we think it would actually come up enough to warrant its own stat. I'm hesitant to include a Toughness stat, though, since I don't think hearts and magic (and stamina, if we decide to use it) should be influenced by other stats (apart from maybe the Triforce virtues). Doesn't seem to be much need for it if it doesn't contribute to hearts. Though we could perhaps roll Willpower in with it for any kind of "resisting" sort of thing. In that case, maybe call it Grit or Guts or something, though perhaps Toughness might be better given the potential confusion with Courage.And Mass or Weight is probably a good idea as an extra modifier on knockback-type effects, since there are a lot of those in LoZ. Not really a typical "add to skill" kind of stat, though.
>>19800320>>19800379thank you, and im worried about it being too narrow, but I could see a zora for example, who is an apprenticing alchemist and thusly is wise, but also very courageous and so he uses a sling to shoot his potions. this mixes those two attributes, one might be a bit beyond the other and power would be very low for a young zora obviously. characters could still be diverse
>>19800320>skills wouldnt be too hard, the problem is that there is a large arsenal of tools and sorting them might be a challenge. One solution? Provide a list of those tools/items and their stats (and maybe some original ones?) but the GM chooses which ones are in the game. I don't know much about the games, but while there are some standards (every game has a boomerang, right?) there's got to be ones that are unique to each game. The Gm choosing what goes in shakes things up, leaves the players not being able to assume/guess what comes next.
Wait are we creating a game where we create and play a character in the Zelda universe or are we creating a game where we play deconstructed pieces of Link?
>>19800386I dunno. all I saw was a tripfag being a screaming idiot railing against a project he's not interested in while somebody new stepped up to try and get things moving.
>>19800392>And Mass or Weight is probably a good idea as an extra modifier on knockback-type effects, since there are a lot of those in LoZ. Not really a typical "add to skill" kind of stat, though.Doesn't need to be a separate stat. Just say "Lets you perform Knockback" on that item/weapon.
>>19800416I like. I'll write a list up right now of tools that arent so miscellaneous as to be irrelevant and are deserving of a skill slot yaknow. I think we'll need them sorted on a spreadsheet and then the GM that runs it can just pick what he wants to work with and what he doesnt so there isnt too much possible for players like a guy that uses every gadget and weapon ever in history. and if some of you guys dont like the idea of the triforce based attribute system, proceed with writing your own game but im going to want this simple enough for anyone to run, and making it feel LoZish is up to hell well a GM can implement the system, or maybe tweek it.. idunno i like where this is going
>>19800386The general consensus in previous incarnations of the project was that Tri-stat is a little too coarse-grained and general as a stat base. The original project used a sort of combination of Tri-stat's stats with the Triforce to make a roll-keep system, but that was an absolute mess.>>19800320We've actually got a good base to work with from the original project as far as defining what each virtue affects and what skills to use. We don't have to use the exact same skill list, but I do like the original goal of keeping skills as broad and simple as possible so you don't get those "orphan skills" that are only useful in certain very niche circumstances. Here's what the original list was:>Shield (both blocking and bashing)>Heavy (ie, megaton hammer, biggoron sword, etc.)>Melee (all other melee weapons rolled in here)>Ranged (all ranged weapons)>Magic>Acrobatics (dodging as well as jumping, balancing, etc.)>Stealth>Perception>Sway (catch-all social skill)These were effectively subdivided in the original version by the whole attribute/virtue system, but since we scrapped that mess we might want to break some of them down into different skills.
>>19800457I was thinking more like Weight as a modifier to how far you get knocked back/knock others back. High Weight = you don't get knocked back as much, and knock others back more, while low Weight has the opposite effect. So a Goron wouldn't get pushed around as much, and would push others around more, whereas a lightweight Deku would get tossed around easily and would have a tough time pushing a a human around.Would also be useful for pressure switches and the like. You must have Weight X or more to trip the switch.
>>19800473>and if some of you guys dont like the idea of the triforce based attribute system, proceed with writing your own game but im going to want this simple enough for anyone to run, and making it feel LoZish is up to hell wellExcept using the Triforce IS NOT ZELDA-ISH
>>19800432Because I think we should be creating a system where we play various denizens of Hyrule. >>19800416Because the idea of dealing out Link's equipment to the party sounds awful. His equipment should be rare artifacts. Almost all his equipment was found at the end of dungeons.
>>19800519>Because the idea of dealing out Link's equipment to the party sounds awful. His equipment should be rare artifacts. Almost all his equipment was found at the end of dungeons.You just don't give up, do you? Oooh nooo, Link used these things! We can't use them in a Zelda RPG because that would be a reference and that would be baaaaad.
>>19800519>Because the idea of dealing out Link's equipment to the party sounds awful. His equipment should be rare artifacts. Almost all his equipment was found at the end of dungeons.I'm not sure whether to agree or disagree with you on this point. On the one hand, yes, the classic LoZ items (boomerang, hookshot, etc) should be treated as rare artifacts -- hard to get, tightly controlled by the GM, not just something you can slap some rupees down in the market square to buy. On the other hand, "dealing out Link's equipment to the party" is pretty much a necessity for having a properly Zelda-style game. It's all about the items, and using said items to solve puzzles.
Just use GURPS, you fucks want something that's somehow generic yet not zelda references there you go. It's not unique but you threw that notion out a long time ago when you started quibbling over stat and skill names.
One thing I'm not in favour of is tying wisdom/intelligence into puzzle solving ability as I've seen suggested here and there. Half the focus is solving puzzles, I don't think anyone wants every room to be solved with a dice roll.
It's cool, Boomer was under the impression that we were making the triforce virtues the main stats. (>>19800242) It's cool, just a misunderstanding.>>19800259So thus far, stats suggested have been strength and wit. MAna and Constitution are covered by heart containers and magic bar extensions, though it might be an interesting idea to allow some stat points or whatever gets decided on to be spent on an extra heart container or magic meter. I also came up with finesse, which is the character's control of their own body for stuff like acrobatics or tricky sword maneuvers. I don't actually think this needs a social stat, as the NPCs aren't really there to be bargained with. Though maybe it does. Opinions?>>19800320I don't think we can make this system work without stats as well as skills. It might be possible to have what the stats should cover be the skills, though. IE: players have the choice to put skill points in strength or horse riding, to pick an example, but it seems like that's being different for the sake of being different and also would lead to some characters that were basically invalids but could ride a horse really well.
>>19800606Yeah, puzzles in this game should absolutely be a test of player ability, not character ability.Here's what we worked out for the virtues in the original project. While their mechanical implementation was borked, I think the thematic delineation is solid:>Power is associated with pure force. It is blunt and straightforward, not bothering with finicky matters of subtlety and finesse. It is aggressive and imposing. Ganon exemplifies the virtue of Power.>Wisdom is associated with contemplation and manipulation. It is refined and precise, preferring to take the time to analyze a situation rather than forcing its way through. It is defensive and discerning. Princess Zelda exemplifies the virtue of Wisdom.>Courage is associated with heroism and a balanced approach. It bridges the gap between Power and Wisdom -- not as brutally aggressive as Power, but much more straightforward and action-oriented than Wisdom. It is persevering and straightforward. Link exemplifies the virtue of Courage.
>>19800606I'd think they'd be more "roll for hint" things, puzzle conveying in table tops is already damn hard. It either reveals itself too easy "you enter a room and there is an eye above this locked door" or trying to explain the damn water temple without a shit ton of aids.
>>19800574HEy hey Hey, I thought boomer was annoying too, but like I asked, "Are we making a game where we play people in the Zelda Universe or are we making a game where we play deconstructed pieces of Link?I'm not against Zelda references, I love the game I wouldn't be posting in this thread if I didn't.>>19800575I know, it's hard to think of ways to create puzzles that don't require Link's stuff but I just don't know how we should approach this.
>>19800519Except I wasn't talking about just handing out the items as candy? I meant "There should be a list of all the LoZ items. Then the GM, as part of building the campaign, chooses which ones are going to be available." I did not then say "Then the GM just pisses all over Link and gives them out for free." I didn't even go into how the PCs get them.I can go into more detail about what I meant, if you need me to elaborate on that.
>>19800641Please do. I stand by the idea that the equipment should be considered artifacts however.
>>19800626I proposed some stats here >>19800392.Quick recap of my suggestion:>Strength>Wits>Charisma>Agility>Maybe Toughness/Guts, for resisting assaults both mental (eg, ReDead's shriek) and physical (eg, poisons)I could see dropping Charisma, though it would be good for making the world a little bit more lifelike.
>>19800662I'm liking this already.
>>19800639>but like I asked, "Are we making a game where we play people in the Zelda Universe or are we making a game where we play deconstructed pieces of Link?So what do you suggest when it comes to gear, which is apparently a big fucking deal in zeldagaems? Because using the same things Link does for the game is a big fucking travesty or something.
>>19800639It's not so much a matter of it being hard to make puzzles that don't require Link's stuff, but the fact that such puzzles just wouldn't be Zelda. That's the single defining feature of the Zelda franchise, so removing that makes it just a generic RPG set in Hyrule, which is precisely what we're trying to avoid.
>>19800662All right, I'll break this down for you in bullet points/a numbered list.1. Somebody makes a list of all the items that appear in the Zelda series. From mundane shit to magical fucks.2. Then those things get statted out.3. Now you have a list of items all sorted and statted and ready for use.4. Next, somebody who is going to GM a Zelda game takes that list and reads it.5. After reading it, the GM chooses X number of items that will appear in his campaign.6. The GM decides what items he wants to use in his game.8. Holy fuck are you this dense on purpose or are you trying to give me a brain injury with your words.
>>19800668Equipment is a big deal in Zelda games. Without the thing you got from the last dungeon, it is literally impossible to get through the next one.>>19800681Shit now I'm on the fence about my own ideas. Although to play the devil's advocate:What's so bad about a generic RPG set in Hyrule? And why is it doomed to be generic if it doesn't have things from the games?>>19800701>Steps 1-4 are purely part of creating the system>Step 5 and 6 are the same>Step 8? You skipped 7 smart ass.This doesn't solve the problem this just helps the GM create dungeons that require certain equipment.
>>19800632Even at it's trickiest it'll be "You see 4 platforms and an unlit torch sconce, the door is barred. Wat do". It all sounds pretty dumb when you put it like that. Dungeon layouts might require some drawfaggotry to do justice.
>>19800701Please, calm down. That last bit is only going to invite more arguing. >>19800662It seems you me you dislike the idea of characters starting the game and finding, say, a boomerang laying on the ground. While where the items will be found is ultimeately up to th GM, most items should be bought, quested for, or as you say, found in dungeons.
>>19800753I'm thinking battlemat may have to be a standard.
>>19800662Not the guy you're talking to, but personally, how I think items should be handled is basically just as they are in the video games. You start with a very limited supply (just one or two items), and acquire the rest by accomplishing things in-game -- delving into dungeons, completing quests, etc. The GM decides what items you get (except perhaps for starting gear, though even that will be chosen from a restricted list), and when -- ie, placing them in dungeons and such. Items would of course play a pivotal role in navigating to and through dungeons, so the GM would need to have control over the party's inventory to plan puzzles appropriately.Shops would serve the same purpose as the video games -- buying ammo and potions, replacing broken shields, and occasionally acquiring a new item that happens to be the last in stock.To my knowledge, this has pretty much been the consensus for how items should be handled in the game pretty much since its inception.>>19800751>What's so bad about a generic RPG set in Hyrule?Nothing bad about it, it's just not what we're trying to do here. It's not Legend of Zelda: The RPG, you see? It's a fine game, but not the same style of game.
>>19800753Well, it's not like the solution is any less obvious in-game.
>>19800776I like you homebrew guy. You're not a total asshat. And yes, I just don't want Link's equipment being starter equipment.
>>19800780Not necessarily. Positioning can easily be conveyed through narration. Even for games like more recent editions of D&D where battlemats are assumed, I've had plenty of success running them without any visual aids. Just takes a bit more Q&A -- "About how far away is X? How close together are Y and Z?"
>>19800751>This doesn't solve the problem this just helps the GM create dungeons that require certain equipment.Which, funnily enough, I wasn't addressing in the first place! I was just throwing out a worldbuilding idea that for some reason you've jumped upon like it took a dump on your princess.>>19800776>Please, calm down. That last bit is only going to invite more arguing. I'll calm down when people stop being such rampaging chucklefucks. In case you haven't noticed, half this thread is autistic tripfags arguing for some literalistic view of a Link Simulation RPG.>>19800662When you say "artifacts" you really mean "only glorious Link can touch these."
You could stat up all the equipment, and then only allow a few of the more mundane, basic items as starter options. Maybe sword, boomerang, bow, and maybe maaaaybe hookshot.
>>19800753wait, at it's trickiest? There are ways to do puzzles much better than that in tabletop. Not to mention there are new opportunities for puzzles due to it not being a video game. A lot more options for word puzzles and stuff.Unfortunately, it's about one where I am, so I'm going to go to bed. Your homework is to think about any thing an LOZ hero might do that would need a stat other than strength, wits, agility, charisma, or guts.
>>19800842No I mean the fucking Hero of Time that saved all of Hyrule owned these. You know? The guy that saved us from Gannon? Not like we'll totally just hawk all his equipment as soon as he dies. That's why in the games you could just buy all the equipment you've needed to go through all the dungeons.
>>19800802Starter equipment would basically be the same kinds of stuff you see in the vidya. Crappy training sword, fragile wooden shield, etc. If you're wanting to play a ranged character, you get a toy slingshot. If you're wanting to play a mage, you have some weak talisman or some shit. Want more and better? Go clear a dungeon, or deliver trinket X to person A, who trades you item Y to give to person B, who gives you doodad Z that person C just so happens to be looking for...>>19800867How Link's equipment (as in, the shit Link actually personally owned) is handled is entirely up to the GM. It might be that it was lost over the ages and that's what you're finding in the dungeons. It might be that it vanished with him (and him being gone is why the PCs need to step up) and you're just getting similar items. It might even be that you're playing in a non-canon version of Hyrule where Link never existed. That's all story shit, not stuff the rules need to be concerned with.Bear in mind that pretty much all of this general stuff was thoroughly discussed in the original attempt at this project, and at least a few of us here (I'm assuming I'm not the only one) were around for that. We might have goofed bigtime with the core mechanical framework, but as far as the general handling of the broad concepts goes I think we managed to do a pretty good job on the whole.
>>19800867So what's your point here? We're talking about a game that does not have Link. So how are the heroes going to get shit done if they're not allowed to touch the precious widdle artifacts that belong to somebody who doesn't exist?Can they be significant items? Sure. Are they artifacts solely by virtue of Link rubbing his dick on them? No.
>>19800863I mean tricky for a standard Zelda puzzle. Even then the really hard ones were always a matter of beating the clock.
>>19800907>>19800924Does Link exist in the setting or not?
>>19800942Hell if I know. All I know about this game is that is a clusterfuck of ideas and sperg that isn't going anywhere. Again.
>>19800942It doesn't -matter-. If the GM wants, the players can find The Longshot That Link Used... or they could just find a Thing that Works Kinda Like the Hookshot As Heard Of In Legend.
>>19800942As with all of these nebulous /tg/ creations: It's up to the GM.I'd be in favour of not having any kind of Link or prophecy, other people might want him as a playable character. If you want to leave his weapons/the shit he found in a chest on little pedestals or use them is irrelevent. Right now it's more important to stat them.
>>19800982I has to be the latter, because Link's equipment are Artifacts and you simply cannot allow them to fall into the grubby, unworthy mitts of the players.So those scrubs are going to have to deal with second-tier equipment to avoid tarnishing the Hero of Time.
>>19800942Entirely up to the GM. The RPG is a set of tools to let a group play a game using the iconic Zelda races and items in the iconic Zelda style of navigating through puzzle-filled dungeons using items to solve said puzzles. The suggested setting is something resembling that of one of the games (assuming OoT Hyrule as the default), but as with any RPG the GM is free to use whatever they want. Could be based on any of the Zelda games, or some new version of Hyrule entirely of the GM's own devising.Generally speaking, though, Link is probably absent in some form or another. Maybe he's dead, maybe he's MIA, maybe he's off dealing with some even bigger threat than what the PCs are up against, or maybe he never existed at all. But he needs to be removed from the picture in some way or another so the PCs have room to shine and a reason to be doing the heroics instead of him. Nobody likes to be directly overshadowed by an NPC, and you bet your ass that motherfucking Link is going to overshadow you.
As someone who was hoping to start a game of Zelda RPG using the /tg/ made rules on 1d4chan, I find this thread intriguing. Whatever comes of it, will you guys be posting or saving what you come up with anywhere?
>>19800907>>19800982>>19800993>>19801012I had a whole post written up, but it's pretty much covered by these posts.>>19801003Now you're just being ornery. Let it go, the issue is up to the GM, it doesn't matter.
>>19801016>And again, players would start equipped at the kokiri sword- deku shield level, so Link's or not, players would not start with the crazy magical shit.Really? You're going too fall for the trap of making reference-laden RPG instead of a true game?>>19801052Somebody better archive this, if only as a warning of how not to make a game.
>>19801052It's been archived as "Legend of Zelda RPG Revival Revival", on SupTG.Now I'm seriously going to bed. Behave yourselves, and if you disagree with someone, please try to reason it out.
>>19801059>Now you're just being ornery. Let it go, the issue is up to the GM, it doesn't matter.I see you've still insisting on refusing to take charge and let the /tg/ hivemind flail around.
If you want to include Link, he may have saved Hyrule once upon a time, and left his items in various dungeons to test for worthy successors in the hero business. But really, Link's position is up to GM discretion.Canonically speaking, each of the video game's characters, things, and places are each different reflections of the legend, which may or may not have ever taken place in the same universe.
As a die hard fan I made my own . I saw what you were doing here, took some of that, took some of 13th age, took some l5r. Here, If yo dont like it you can go fuck yourselfs. This is a me only sort of project, so you can actually see what some of us motherfuckers do here instead of call each other faggots all day and accomplish nothing. Core rules.... https://www.dropbox.com/s/mdfrycb0aqgadzb/Legend%20of%20zelda%20Playtest%20rules.pdfCharacter sheet. https://www.dropbox.com/s/taz838dhxpgp8fr/Zelda%20Character%20sheet.pdfYou could probably run a sameple session, however I dont have basic equipment typed up yet. Swords and shields and all of that. But it's simple enough. Anyway, you are welcome , the people who are actually interested.
>>19801134I'm only two pages in but holy shit I love you for the designer notes. More games need to explain why they do things the way they do.
>>19801181Thanks ! I fucking hate that we dont get to see why shit was done the way it was , and I took it upon myself to change it. If you like it a lot and want to help , im always looking. Oh I also have the math figured out in an excel sheet . So yes, im quite savvy on a very intimate level of how the die rolls work.
We should get an alpha game running on Roll20
>>19801134Looks awesome so far! Loving the design notes!
>>19801204>I fucking hate that we dont get to see why shit was done the way it wasYeah, I can't think of many RPGs that have a "this is why we did this" section. Stars Without Numbers comes to mind and...maybe some ORE game(s)? I don't know right now, I'm tired and drunk.>If you like it a lot and want to help , im always looking. I'm skimming all over the place right now so probably can't give you anything coherent. Tossed my 4chan e-mail up for shits and giggles though.Though I noticed the Questions section at the back. Also nice to see more reasoning behind stuff. With fairies, one idea for the targeting mechanic is a "spend 1 or X rounds not attacking and paying attention, get a bonus to hit/damage/critical chance." So you sacrifice immediate chance at damage to get a better chance to lay down the hurt. Or something.
My biggest help I need is with layout and art stuff. Sure the game is alright , but to give it some flare. And I dont want to give it a shitty half assed fan made module where you can see that people were trying to make it look like a big budget book, but really turned out to be a "b" movie sort of thing. The one that comes to mind is the zelda d20 rpg. The lay out and style didnt really evoke a well put togheter zelda game.
>>19801134Not quite my cup of tea, but definitely an interesting take on it. You kind of lost me at the skill trees, but I do appreciate the notes on design rationale.As for the project in this thread>>19800863>Your homework is to think about any thing an LOZ hero might do that would need a stat other than strength, wits, agility, charisma, or guts.I personally think these five stats should probably cover it pretty well, since they're fairly broad. The main sticking points I can think of would be magic and perception. Arguably these could both fall under wits, but it feels a bit off to me. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of splintering off stats too much, because personally I don't like it when a game has stats that are only useful to certain niche characters. Since magic in LoZ seems to be more mystical and less grimoire-studying, perhaps rename charisma to "spirit" and use that for magic as well as music and social interaction? Since spirit can also refer to personality and attitude I think that might be a good way to handle it. Perception-type stuff could still fall under wits, since "wits" kind of implies a sort of perceptiveness and responsiveness.
>>19801327Eh, the skill trees arent mean to be that hard to learn, you basicaly start at the top , then whenever you gain a heart containter (and therefore a point) you can put the point in a virtue or attribute, or race and gain any skill you can. It goes from top down pyramid style.
>>19801313>My biggest help I need is with layout and art stuff.Fuck, I'm tempted to offer some help with that. I've got a copy of InDesign, allegedly about to graduate with a degree in graphic design and I need actual design experience real fucking bad.No guarantees but I might be able to help in making a PDF.
>>19801348I meant "you lost me" in that you lost my interest there. They're quite simple, just a bit less fluid and customizable than I'd prefer character advancement to be.
>>19801313>zelda d20 rpgOkay, gave this my half-assed and drunken eye. It's...something, all right. >Colorful Triforce on every page>body text in non-black color>yellow fucking everywhere>image quality spotty; pixellation in places>boring cover>253 pagesSomething inside me doesn't feel so good now.
Would a triforce battle grid be cool or taking things to far?
>>19799157pretty much what the others already said.Kokiri are born in the forest, and its a myth that they die if they leave it. The deku tree (of course there is one silly anon, as if there was ever any doubt of that) is a bit overprotective about that, simply because kokiri are of childish statue and at usual not very good at fighting.Ours overcame the fighting part by getting himself a horse to smash his enemies underalthough there is still the rumor and possibility that the deku tree meant that kokiris are going to age if they leave his protection, but even if thats true its very slow aging, about a tenth if not less of normal humans.
>>19803181Definitely taking things too far. Personally, I think this game should have as little reliance on battle grids as possible in the first place, and using a weird, nonstandard battle grid just because it bears a resemblance to the Triforce is just silly.
How's this progressing chumps and chumpettes?
>>19806225Read the thread, pretty much. We've established the need to rework the stats system from scratch, and reaffirmed the goal that items should be handled in this game the same way they are in the vidya -- unique, hard to come by, and crucial for navigating dungeons and solving puzzles.As for actually making a stats system, we're working on it. Kind of have some stats outlined, but not much in the way of numbers yet, and nothing solid for skills either.
>>19805356my game has no grid. It uses a zelda style battle field. I am >>19801134 .
The talking is all well and good, but there needs to be more pictures.
>>19806893How about some of the pictures from the drawfags the original project attracted?
>>19807008One of the problems with this game's development was people kept trying to add in more races. I don't have the full image, but there were proponents for monstrous PCs, including the full range of 'blins.
>>19807078I think why everyone remembers this project is because of the huge drawfag support, actually. I've got a massive folder of artwork that I'm posting these from.
>>19807104Couple more and I'm done for now.
>>19807104I remember it for the number of threads it got before croaking.>>19807053And of course nobody wanted to step and go "shut up and lets work on the basics before we get to that shit."
Nothing "happened" to this project.It still exists. With a little bit of work on the DM's part, it's useable.People just got tired of adding to it.
Aight, I'm back.Neat to see there's a rules-light system. Anon who needs design experience, I say go for it.>>19807053The 'blins are pretty solidly enemies, yeah. Playing them would be like playing a goblin in DnD. While it's possible, it's definitely not core.So it looks like people think Strength, Wits, Agility, Spirit, and Guts is a good combination. However, having a stat be both used for magic and charisma seems pretty unbalanced to me. I'm inclined to split spirit into two things, one for magic, and one for social stuff. I also was thinking about having a stat be for playing instruments, but that's almost certainly skill territory (though charisma or whatever it gets named would probably provide a bonus).I'm not necessarily against imagedumps, but please keep in mind the reply and image limit as you do them.
How's the magic system going to work?Gonna do Mana points?
>>19807302Why do we need "Charisma"? The Zelda games aren't about that kind of thing.They're about grunting while swinging swords and solving puzzles, not looking pretty.
>>19807302I don't think there's anything unbalanced about having a single stat for both magic and social stuff because those are both fairly niche roles. While they're both certainly useful things, they aren't exactly things everyone would use.>>19807342Definitely mana points, since the video games use a magic meter. The bigger question is whether magic should be handled in the typical RPG style as an ability intrinsic to the character (and thus you learn spells by paying XP and so forth) or in a style closer to the Zelda games where they're handled as items (whether actually physical talismans like a Fire Rod, or just that you have to find a tutor or scroll to learn a spell from just as you have to find a boomerang or hookshot or what-have-you).
>>19807344The idea of having charisma is to make the world a bit more realistic. Yeah, the actual Zelda games don't have much in the way of interpersonal interaction (the hero is mute, after all), but that doesn't mean that can't be a part of the RPG. Just because Link doesn't do it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in Hyrule, and even if it's not a major part of the core gameplay pattern it could still come up.Plus we need something to handle stuff like ocarina songs, and that typically falls under charisma or an equivalent stat in most systems.
>>19807463There are some things in Zelda that only affect social things. Spells and songs. The song of healing, and so on.But leaving that stuff to GM discretion would be fine.
>>19807463The main issue I have with having social stuff handled outside of the rules is that it limits roleplaying potential. If you aren't very suave in real life, you can't effectively play a smooth-talking character without relying on stats.But on the other hand, we're already relying heavily on puzzles solved by OOC skill, and as noted social stuff probably wouldn't be a major part of most games, so I suppose in this case having no social stat/skill might be acceptable. Still kind of rubs me the wrong way, but I guess I wouldn't be as vehemently opposed to it in this context as I would for other games.So if we remove social stuff from the domain of mechanical adjudication, that leaves music and magic under the fifth stat, whatever we call it. Perhaps "mysticism" would be a good name for it then?
>>19807342Pretty much.There'll be a magic bar, and it'll be divided into segments, and spells will cost so many segments.>>19807344So, you're suggesting social interactions be done entirely by roleplaying? That ... could work, actually. Have players do their best to talk down a shopkeep, and so on. Quite unique.Does anyone else have thoughts on this, otherwise I think I'm doing to roll with it. Also suggestions for a better name than 'spirit' are welcome.Sorry, I deleted my previous post to think about it a bit more, but people saw it. Looks like people are okay with the idea, and we can always fix the stats later. Spirit is now mysticism, the stat of magic and music.
>>19807618How popular is music going to be cause in LoZ music makes magic look like shit.
>>19807647The general consensus we had going in the original project was that music is mainly for noncombat/narrative stuff, so generally limited in scope, whereas magic would be more useful for combat.And really, I think you just haven't been playing the right Zelda games. Sure, most of the newer ones haven't done much with magic, but magic is pretty boss in LttP. Fire and Ice Rods, the Medallions, Cane of Byrna, Magic Cape, etc.
>>19807676Problem is that those burned threw magic really quickly.
>>19807562Well, yeah, there's not much being social will get you, other than some discounts or something, or convincing somebody with a secret to spill the beans without threats, irrefutable proof, or doing a quest for them. There could be a speechcraft skill, though...
>>19807738That's Zelda magic for you. Powerful, but limited in use.
>>19807802Still better than DnD magic in terms of balance
>>19807761THE WIND FISH IN NAME ONLYFOR IT IS NEITHER
>>19807738That's because link was not a mage class.He was a jack of all trades, master of none.A dedicated casterwould suck at using a sword but might be better at casting magic.
Alright, we have stats. Next up is skills. Some obvious ones, partially drawing from the previous project, are riding, ranged, heavy, melee, block, stealth, acrobatics, and maybe speechcraft. I'm going to eat, and see if I can playtest that warmunchies game with my brother. While I'm gone, your job is to brainstorm ideas for skills and discuss the one's I've suggested.It'd be pretty cool if we could get each skill to fall under a certain sage (Fire, Water, Forest, Light, Shadow, or Spirit), but that's not absolutely necessary.
>>19808114I think link was more of a swordsman.I mean he does get training from some of the best swordsmen to ever live he does fight giant monsters with nothing but bombs, swords, and shields.
honestly I think a zelda system would be best to heavily revolve around items, like the games.I still have the original posts I made in the beginning when this system was first proposed, the one that was item-based, which everyone built on afterward. I know they built on it because they kept the |pipes| around the skill names.I can post it if anybody wants to see it.
>>19808231Well I'll just post it, cause what's the harm>Anonymous 05/19/11(Thu)02:18 No.14976917 Alright so I just started writing some notes and I'll paste them here while explaining them. This is my attempt at making basically a new system from scratch for this. It's primarily Item-based, since that's what I feel is the biggest part of Zelda as a series. That's why character stats are fairly minimal. STATS: Power (POW): Determines physical attack power. Wisdom (WIS): Determines magical power. Courage (CRG): Determines health and defensive power. These stats are abstract concepts. It doesn't literally mean you're courageous, or wise. It just means that your power is primarily in that "realm" so to speak. If you want to push a block, it would be a POW check. If you're trying to dodge a trap, it'd be a CRG check. Pretty much all noncombat actions that require significant effort would be analyzed on a case by case basis and assigned one of those 3 categories at the GM's discretion. There's no contrived and detailed skill system. Next post will detail the item classes.[cont.]
>>19808281>Anonymous 05/19/11(Thu)02:23 No.14976963 >>14976917 ITEM CLASSES: |Blade| - Sword, Knife, Axe, etc. |Armor| - Magic Armor, Zora Armor, Darknut Armor, etc. |Rod| - Cane of Somaria, Fire Rod, Cane of Byrna, etc. |Instrument| - Ocarina, Flute, Pipes, Drums, etc. |Tool| - Hookshot, Boomerang, Grappeling Hook, etc. |Bomb| - Waterbomb, Powder Keg, Bombchu, etc. |Heavy| - Ball and Chain, Greatsword, Hammer, etc. |Bow| - Fire Arrows, Ice Arrows, Light Arrows, etc. |Shield| - Mirror Shield, Hylian Shield, Kokiri Shield, etc. Items in this system are the focus. You can't really do much of anything without items (with a few exceptions, of course.) For each of these item classes, your character has an item level. It uses a notation like this: |Item|#| where # is your level in that item class. For example, |Blade|3| Each of the races you can choose from can only use 6 of these items (with the exception of hylians), starting off at level 1 in each item class that they can use, and 0 in the others. They also have specializations in certain classes, and they'll start at level 3 in classes that they specialize in. Next post will be the races.[cont.]
>>19808289>Anonymous 05/19/11(Thu)02:29 No.14977012 >>14976963 Each of these races would also have several traits/abilities that I've yet to think up, but they'd be things like Zoras being able to swim and breathe underwater, for example, and Gorons being able to survive extremely hot temperatures. The POW 1, etc, beside the race name is the stat bonus that race gives you. The scale of the numbers isn't entirely ironed out, but the ratios should give you a general idea. RACES: Hylian: POW 1/WIS 1/CRG 1 Balanced race. Can use any item. Starts at level 2 for each. Gerudo: POW 3 Agile female thieves. Specialize in |Blades|, and |Bows|. Can also use |Armor|, |Heavy|, |Tools|, and |Shields|. Goron: POW 1/CRG 2 Heavy, sturdy rock eaters. Specialize in |Bombs|, |Armor|, and |Heavy|. Can also use |Bows|, |Shields|, |Instruments|. Zora: WIS 2/CRG 1 Nimble water-based fighters. Specialize in |Rods| and |Instruments|. Can also use |Armor|, |Tools|, |Bombs|, and |Blades|. Kokiri: WIS 1/CRG 2 Child-like forest spirits. Specialize in |Bows|, |Instruments|, and |Tools|. Can also use |Blades|, |Shields|, and |Rods|. Deku Scrub (Lost Woods Expansion): Coming Soon Skullkid (Lost Woods Expansion): Coming Soon Rito (Great Sea Expansion): Coming Soon Next post will give some examples of powers/abilities. It's not entirely ironed out yet.[cont.]
>>19808303>Anonymous 05/19/11(Thu)02:38 No.14977115 >>14977012 I also should have mentioned how leveling up works. When you level up, you get points that you can put towards item levels. You get more of these points for actually using the items you're leveling up. This is at the GM's discretion at this point, but it could always be worked out further. Each race would have a bunch of unique powers as well, as you level up. These powers might have item levels as a prerequisite. As long as you meet all of the prerequisites, you get that power. You don't have to "choose" it. Here's one example for Gorons: Withstand Blasts / Level 3 Req: |Bomb|5| CRG(10) Damage taken from your own |Bombs| is halved. It requires you to be Level 3, have a |Bomb| level of 5, and 10 Courage. Once all those are met, you have that power. One thing I'm still foggy on is how combat would work exactly. Here's an example of how an offensive power might look. Rollout / Level 1 Req: None You move your speed + 3 in a straight line and attack everything in your path. You cannot act next round. POW; 1d6 + POW Damage. Last line is the attack. It uses POW for the attack roll, and 1d6 + POW would be the damage. But I'm not sure. If anybody has any feedback, that'd be nice. This about all I've got right now.[and that's all of it.]
>>19808281>move a block>strength check or equivalent......hmmm... Doesn't entirely feel right. To be more specific, how about how well you move the block is a check, if needed, if your score is high enough to move it. Deku can;t move it on his own? Needs a goron to help? Cool, or better yet, items like the Goron bracelet are just for this situation.Part of dungeon design would also need to include two different warnings, since dungeons would essentially be prepared modules. One, the "items" you need just going in. Two, the dungeon must contain items to solve it's puzzles. In case of GM mistakes, like letting the party in a dungeon they don't have the tools for, the GM is encouraged to add on a room, fight, or puzzle with the missing item OR handle it old style and let them try another dungeon and come back to this one later.My mind got thinking about the gameplay when you mentioned the strength check. It was always a solid "can or can't" in the games, with items turning the can't into can, and player skill handling the rest.
>>19808425Not to mention its a bad impediment to play. What happens if you fail your "move the block" check? Can you try again and is there a limit/drawback/time constraint? If so, why even require a roll in the first place?Is it a "one try and that's it?" approach? In that case, how retarded are you to pull a "rolled poorly? Welp, dungeon's inaccessible now!"
>>19808425Str check to see if you can push it.Then move at half-speed. Once you succeed the check, you don't have to pass it again. But if you fail it, you can retry (although the DC should be clear to the player, so he doesn't keep trying with no hope of success, or stop trying because he missed by 1 point)
>>19797356>What ever happened to this project?I'd say, like most /tg/ projects, the issue was that it was being developed publicly on /tg/ and over the internet. Not that either of these things are intrinsically bad, but they come with certain complications, most of them having to do with people feeling outraged that the project that THEY contributed to isn't going the way that THEY wanted, and that feeling of injustice leading to some pissy bullshit./tg/ might be a good place to playtest hypothetical mechanics and crowdsource ideas, but it's really frustrating when everyone who posts in your thread feels like they now have equal ownership of your ideas.
>>19808631That's just a bad idea. Not everything needs to be rolled.
>>19808672>but it's really frustrating when everyone who posts in your thread feels like they now have equal ownership of your ideas.That's when you become the alpha nerd and go "fuck you, no. I'm doing this my way. Deal with it." As seen done by...nobody in this thread. Except >>19801134coming in here and posting his almost-made take on the game.
Ahh good, this seems like a good thread to be a massive cunt on.Splicing the thread with the now deleted ERP or Erotic Roleplay thread from moments ago. Let me just say right now, I'm talking the PnP or digital D&D sense.Would you every run one? Why?Have you ever been in one? Post you experience.
>>19808827Would never run one but I've been in one. Was actually ok but it was a one off. The rest I've been in/seen were just creepy to the max.
>>19808827Yeah and it was shit. It creeps me the fuck out and it creeped the other players out.It was along the lines of "I'm the wizzzzard. Dare you enter my magical realm?" sort of shit.
Re: pushing blocks - I'm of the opinion that you wouldn't need a roll to do it, but it would be fairly obvious if you can push it or not.Example: in OoT, there were blocks you could push from the beginning, blocks you could only lift with the Silver Gauntlets, and blocks you could only lift with the Golden Gauntlets. Each one has a unique look and feel, and it's obvious which one you're looking at.My proposal is that we do the same thing with pushables: they'd just have a STR threshold you need to push it. A Deku might not be able to push a lv2 block, but a Goron could. Of course, this is just my opinion.
>>19808827Been in several, all freeform. It's just multiplayer fapfiction.My favorite was my mermaid who fell in love with a human. They met up in a hotel room. Sex ensued.
>>19808921Just put something next to Strength in the book that says "You can push/pull/carry objects with a Weight equal to STR." Then when making dungeons the GM assigns a Weight to blocks, doors, other stuff that can be affected by STR.Also, give an option for teamwork, players pooling their STR to work together. Not all at once, maybe two people working together have "Highest STR+1" or something like that.>>19808827>>19808863>>19808902>>19808945Fuck you people.
>>19808631I would say rather than a strength check, just have it so you must have strength X or higher to move the block.
>>19809020And giving Weight values to all kinds of objects in dungeons might open up alternate ways of "solving" them. Give groups an option to brute-force their way through things if they don't want to dick around with finding solutions.
>>19808231>>19808289I support the idea of using a skill list that's primarily based on items, but it is important to have skills for things that are definitely present in the games, but not linked to item use -- acrobatics, stealth, horseback riding, etc.I also don't think it makes sense to have skills for items like armor or the power bracelet that you just equip and get some passive benefit. Not every item should be tied to a skill.I also like the idea of trying to keep skills as broad as possible, but that might be difficult to do, especially since half the reason that worked in the original project was because of how things were subdivided through the virtue/attribute system, which we've acknowledged is way more hassle than it's worth.
If you want the triforce attributes, why not make them literally three flavors of divine intervention? Some kind of ultra-precious extra boost of power/wisdom/courage that must be earned?
>>19809270That would be a good way to handle increases to your virtue stats, but I figure it makes sense for PCs to start with at least a modest bonus in one virtue, since PCs are by nature special/elite to a degree. Not every random peasant will necessarily have virtue stats, but the heroes and villains definitely should, if only to a minor degree.
>>19809327No, I mean like fate points, not basic stats.
>>19809361Not to sound too much like Boomer's overreaction earlier in the thread, but I think that deviates a bit too much from the spirit of the games. Having Triforce virtues as passive bonuses can easily be handwaved as being a behind-the-scenes factor of Link's capabilities in the video games, but there's not really anything in the games that suggests any kind of fate point sort of mechanism. Link's capabilities are pretty much consistent except for influence from items, so introducing any kind of temporary surge of ability seems out of place to me.
>>19809422Nothing in the games supports the concept of adventurers and heroes that aren't Link or people who aren't Link using Link's artifacts either.If you're going to get all literalist about what does and doesn't fit, then just go play the games again.
>>19809270That probably won't work out for this project. There are some bottle items sort of like what you suggest (the stuff you get get from Nayru, Farore, and Din in Minish Cap), so a temporary boost like you describe might be good for them.
>>19809472>Nothing in the games supports the concept of adventurers and heroes that aren't LinkNigga what? There are plenty of other PC-caliber characters in the video games. Zelda/Shiek in OoT, as well as several of the sages in that game. Ralph in Oracle of Ages. Tetra's pirate crew in WW. The group of resistance fighters who help you out in TP. And that's just the ones that immediately pop to the top of my head!They might be overshadowed by Link, but that doesn't mean Link is the only heroic character in the land. The whole point of this game is that something's going on that, for whatever reason, Link can't deal with, so lesser heroes need to step up to the plate.Besides which, all that is purely a narrative issue, not a gameplay one. The point of this game is to replicate the characteristic gameplay style of the Zelda games, not fit flawlessly within LoZ canon. Lesser heroes working together to handle a problem that Link isn't around to deal with (for whatever reason) in no way conflicts with the concept of a game where the hero(es) navigate dungeons using items to solve puzzles. However, a fate point mechanic would be very out of place for an RPG that's trying to emulate the gameplay style of the LoZ video games.
>>19809671Do you play as any of them? Are any of them the Hero of the Zelda games? No.Don't talk to me about trying to "replicate the characteristic gameplay style of the Zelda games" when you're making a game that isn't anywhere close to the Zelda games.
>>19809754I think you're missing something. No, we can't completely recreate the feel of playing LOZ. But we can try to get as close to it as is possible in a tabletop game.
>>19809811Either that or he's just trolling. This project does seem to attract those from time to time, even in the original run.
So, on the subject of skills, here are some things I think should definitely be represented:>WeaponsAt the very least, a division between Heavy (eg, Biggoron sword, megaton hammer, ball & chain) and more standard Melee Weapons seems to be in order. The Melee side of it could perhaps be further subdivided, though I'm not sure that's necessarily a good idea. On the one hand, further subdivision makes simulationist sense, but on the other hand keeping the skills fairly broad makes it easier for characters to use a wide variety of different items, which would be good for a game that relies on the use of various items to solve puzzles. Personally, I prefer more general, condensed skills, so I'd go with Melee Weapons, Heavy Weapons, and maybe a separate Brawling skill for pugilism and grappling.Likewise for Ranged Weapons, there's the issue of how much to subdivide it. Especially given the wide variety of different ranged weapons in the games, we could wind up with a whole lot of very limited skills if we split them all up separately. And given that ranged weapons in the video games tend to be more puzzle-solving tools than actual weapons, and each has a pretty distinct role in what kinds of puzzles they solve, I think it's best to keep ranged weapon skills as condensed as possible. I could see Bombs being split off to a separate skill, since bombs aren't necessarily thrown, but other than that I think it's best if ranged weapons are all handled under a single skill.
>ShieldsThere has been some argument in previous attempts at this project that it should be a "block" skill, allowing for both shield use and parrying-type stuff, but personally I prefer Shields. For one thing, it makes it more obvious that this is the skill you use for shield bashes, and for another it helps emphasize the centrality of items.>MagicAssuming access to different kinds of magic effects is tightly controlled, I see no particular need to subdivide the Magic skill into different kinds of magic (eg, defensive vs. offensive). Basically, this would be the skill used for both item-based magic (Bombos Medallion, Fire Rod, Lens of Truth, Cane of Byrna, etc.) and more "innate" magic (AoL and OoT spells). I very strongly support the idea of treating all magic, whether item-based or innate, in an item-like fashion, rather than something bought with XP.>MusicThis should be obvious. Perhaps call it Instruments if we want to keep the emphasis on items, but if we want to allow for the possibility of evoking mystical music effects just by singing Music is probably better. Or just add a disclaimer that voice is an "instrument" in its own right.
>Miscellaneous toolsI'm not sure if this really should be a skill or not. There are, of course, a number of miscellaneous items that don't fit nicely into any of the above categories. A lot of these can probably be handled without the use of any checks at all (eg, pegasus boots, power bracelet/glove, iron boots) but a few might be more appropriate to use skill checks for (eg, spinner, magnet gloves, arguably grappling hook). Should we have a "Tools" skill or something as a catch-all to handle these odd items, or just try to find ways to stat them that don't rely on skills, or what?>AcrobaticsDodging attacks, jumping chasms, more exotic Shiekah-esque stuff. All that jazz.>RidingHorses in several games, and birds in SS. This should definitely be in there.>StealthEven Link has to get his sneak on from time to time, and then you've got real sneaky types like the Shiekah.>PerceptionBecause if you have Stealth, you need something to counter it. Also useful for spotting weak points on bosses or oddities that might give you a clue to solving a puzzle.>Speechifyin'Catch-all social skill, if we do decide to include one at all. Seems odd to me to have a skill without a corresponding base attribute, though I suppose Wits could work. (It doesn't have to be called Speechifyin', I just don't really like the name "Speechcraft", and can't think of anything better at the moment.)
>>19809422I'm the one who made that suggestion, and I agree with your reasoning as long as those three aren't the only stats. I can't believe a game where everyone who's good at melee attacks will be good at ranged attacks, for instance. Maybe it's best to scrap inherent attributes altogether and make everything run on skills.New idea: Although Link has 4 "hit points" per heart, could there be a way for some people to gain more?
>>19810952>Maybe it's best to scrap inherent attributes altogether and make everything run on skills.Nah. Stat + skill is a tried-and-true method that is definitely better than skills alone. For one thing, skills alone leaves you in trouble when it comes to adjudicating things that aren't among your listed skills, and for another it makes sense that underlying levels of general capability should contribute to multiple different skills. There's still probably going to be the occasional case where it doesn't quite fit perfectly with a simulationist outlook, but verisimilitude isn't that huge a priority for this system.>New idea: Although Link has 4 "hit points" per heart, could there be a way for some people to gain more?Just get more hearts.Though technically some Zelda games treat armor as effectively giving you more "hit points" per heart, but at the end of the day it basically just amounts to damage reduction/extra hearts.
Alright, finally free from family obligations.Good thinking on stats, though I would like to have a few more stats. Maybe a lore skill, for knowledge checks? A survival or gathering skill, for how much stuff you find by cutting grass and maybe other wilderness-related stuff?
>>19811422That wilderness skill thing could also govern things like bug catching or fishing and other side activity stuff if the group was so inclined to do that in between dungeon delving.
Can I get a Fierce Deity mask?
>>19811608Oh, yeah, good idea. God only knows if we'll actually ever make Fishing worthwhile, but it'll at least be an option, even if it's barely past the 'roll 3d6 for how much the fish you caught weighs' level of complexity, it'll be an option.
Getting too crunchy in here. Zelda games aren't about the fiddly details.Might as well make my own at this point.
>>19811700There you go, don't hurt yourself.No seriously, what kind of silly question is that? Work it out with your hypothetical gm.
>>19800386I'm the Race/Defense/Hearts Guy.Upthread I mentioned the potential for deriving something from the Marvel Heroic RPG. It could be the easiest way to utilize the Triforce, combined with various powers and abilities. I can go into a little bit more depth about the baseline and my thoughts if you want?
>>19811743There's a rules-light system that seems pretty good further up in the thread that might catch your fancy. Otherwise, I wish you the best of luck making your own!Swimming, and possibly also climbing, seems like it should get a skill. Thoughts on this?
>>19811854>TriforceUgh, no. I thought we already cleared this up, the Triforce has no place here.
>>19811893If you want to reduce skills you could have acrobatics, climbing and swimming as the one "athletics" skill.
>>19811894No, it has a place here, but that place is not as any sort of main stat. It's currently implemented as a +3 max bonus for thematically matching actions, with PCs starting with 1-0-0 an any given virtue and advancement very controled.
>>19811854Easier than a trio of auxiliary stats that provide mild static bonuses to appropriate tasks?I think we're good on the Triforce stuff.>>19811893>Swimming, and possibly also climbing, seems like it should get a skill. Thoughts on this?I think these are probably better handled as a simple issue of moving half speed or something of that nature. Racial traits and standalone upgrades purchased with XP might improve that rate, but overall it should be fine without being tied to a skill. If you ever need to do something particularly challenging, it can just be handled with one of the base stats by itself.The thing about mobility skills like that is that they tend to be neglected in favor of stuff that has a more constant impact on the game. Sure, it's definitely nice to be good at swimming when you hit the water temple with its rapids and whirlpools and shit, but 95% of the time it doesn't come up, so it's not really worth investing in compared to skills that are used on a regular basis for combat or more common noncombat challenges. Giving bonuses to such things in bigger chunks through another system (and at a better XP-to-bonus rate than if you were buying it as a skill) makes it more worthwhile.
>>19811994I skimmed down the thread as I posted that. I didn't realize the massive crazyfest had ended until I got to the end of it, which was after I posted that. I'm totally good with Stat + Skill + Mod (as said prior, NWoD nerd says that is good). Here, have some Zelda music as my reparation.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPWEJMGxTBshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEbFLSfHqQ8
>>19811994Also, why not just a generic Athletics skill that covers swimming, running (LET'S DO THIS, MAILMAN!), and such physical challenges?
>>19811994You make a fair point. I don't think there's a single acolyte or inquisitor who knows how to swim in all of Dark Heresy because of that.>>19812091I may be biased because I just suggested it here >>19811930 but while you might only need to swim in one or two dungeons, they pretty much all have some physically exerting test or obstacle.Different races could have penalties or boosts, ie Zoras got swimming down but if I remember right in Majora's Mask Gorons and Deku Scrubs seem flat out unable to swim.
>>19812185Hivemind. Plus I overlooked yours, but it's a sound idea. It makes it not useless to have general Athletics, since you can call for Athletics to run, jump, dive, foot chase, swim, balance...
>>19812091I suppose a general Athletics skill could be acceptable. Especially if we let it cover jumping instead of Acrobatics (at least simple long/high jumps, as opposed to more, well, acrobatic jumps). Since Acrobatics will already be pretty valuable due to being useful for dodging attacks and possibly certain special attacks like the back slice, taking away a major noncombat use of it shouldn't hurt its value too much.
>>19812185Gorons, being born from stone, are too heavy to swim; they sink and 'drown' (in game, lose a heart). Deku Scrubs are light enough to skip for a short time on the water, but their bodies get soggy in the water and they sink too (lose a heart). That's not even including oddball races like the Rito (who are the flying evolution of the Zora).
>>19812218Bunny Hood must give an Athletics bonus then. :D
>>19812246Hence, again, making Items important. Zora's Mail, or other Zora-make objects (Zora's Brace, Zora's Vest, etc.) that allows people to function underwater without the larger drawback (Goron's losing health, etc.) As an example, look at OoT. Link needed both the Zora Tunic and Iron Boots to get into the Water Temple. A Goron, then, only needs a Zora Bracer or something (or just a seriously-upsized Zora's Mail). A Deku, however, might need a third item (Zora's Brace, Iron Boots, something to stop the soggies?) That could honestly be a function of racial weakness and items. >>19812335Oh, whatever. Get over yourself.
>>19811930Good idea. Though there's a difference between bouncing all over the place like a ninja, so I'm going to keep acrobatics as well.As of now, the current skills are:Melee HeavyRangedShieldsMagic*InstrumentsTools?AcrobaticsRidingStealthPerceptionSpeech*Athletics*Wilderness*Lore*=could use a better namePerhaps there should be a dual-wielding or offhand skill? It seems to me that dual-wielders would get more benefit from their skill points than people with sword and shield because it the former don't have to divide their skill points between melee and shield.And I'd still like there to be a multiple of six skills, but I'm not going to force the skill system so everything matches up to a medallion. Can anybody think of anything we missed? Maybe an alchemy skill, making potions from bugs and shit? Or a division of Lore into different areas of focus?
>>19812434Magic - SpellcraftAthletics - What's wrong with this? It's descriptive for a wide range of things.Speech - Is this just for manipulating people, or what? If so, then perhaps Socialize or Manipulation or Presence.Wilderness - Survival? Potionmaking would fall under something like Lore, since something JUST for potion-making is too niche.Tools is fine; it represents using esoteric crazy stuff like Spinners. Also, do magical tools like the Dominion Rod, Cane of Byrna, Fire Rod or Magic Powder fall under Spellcraft, Lore or Tools then?
>>19812434I don't think any sort of crafting skill is a good idea. Since items are already going to be strictly regimented by the GM, it makes sense that any sort of crafting would be handled as a purely narrative thing, not based on skills.
>>19812501Also, are Bombs, Bombchus and other related objects falling under Heavy or Tool?
>>19812501>Also, do magical tools like the Dominion Rod, Cane of Byrna, Fire Rod or Magic Powder fall under Spellcraft, Lore or Tools then?Spellcraft. Definitely Spellcraft.
>>19812524Definitely not Heavy -- that's for big, hefty melee weapons.I would've thought bombs would go under Ranged, but having them under Tools actually sounds like a really good idea. Certainly gives the skill a bit more of a significant value, and seems like a pretty good fit.
>>19812434Also, you have 15 skills; that's PLENTY of skills, and you could easily split them up thus for the medallions (if the Virtues are what you meant, if not ignore that):Power - Melee, Heavy, Ranged, Athletics, RidingWisdom - Spellcraft, Lore, Perception, Presence, InstrumentCourage - Shield, Tool, Stealth, Survival, ToolMaybe?>>19812549Yeah. Considering that using Bombchus is all about figuring out the best crazy physics (or just spamming the fuck out of them), Tool seems like it's appropriate.
>>19812595WHOOPS, I meant...Courage - Shield, Tool, Stealth, Survival, Acrobatics
>>19812595Also, are we going to use a similar damage setup to the last time? IE: Successes on attacks - successes on defense = quarters of hearts removed?
>>19812595Nah, he meant the medallions from OoT -- Forest, Fire, Water, Light, Shadow, and Spirit.While certain skills might fall primarily or entirely under a given Virtue, not all of them would be. Some would depend on what exactly you're trying to do. For instance, an axe, a dagger, and a sword would all fall under Melee, but they would probably be Power, Wisdom, and Courage, respectively.
>>19812650Well, we need to figure out what kind of dice method we're going to use first. I would guess it probably won't be success-based this time, since that'll simplify the probability spread considerably.
>>19812653True enough. Also, I couldn't see a real way to fit them all under various medallions (since a lot of Shadow and Spirit would overlap, for example). So just ignore what I posted above; it's been a long, long day and I'm very fried from work.
Medallions? Why? Depending on the game, there are anywhere from four to eight main themes for dungeons; there's not a whole lot of reason to force them into six categories, imho.Of course, that's just my opinion.
>>19812678Well, if we're doing Stat + Skill, whatever die we use just needs to have it's target number determined. NWoD has 8+ on d10, OWoD has 7+ on d10, Arkham Horror has 5+ on a d6... Alternately, a differing mechanic (that still works on stat + skill) could work out at defining die types (d4/d6/d8/d10/d12/d20, with purchased bonusess intervening or something), making a die pool, which you roll for a total and try to beat a TN for success, with totals past the TN generating increased success. That also makes it a bit more like the games for combat in that, outside of armor damage reduction, damage is fairly static (you always take 1/4 Heart from a Chuchu, you always take 1 Heart from a Stalfos swing). So you could, say, have a Stat at d6 and the appropriate Skill at d8+1, rolling against a TN of, say, 9 for a 'I'm gonna whack that Chuchu with my Deku Stick!')
>>19812767Because we're going full retard here.
>>19812767Wait for the next time people try to revive this game and raise a stink about it. Then whoever's nominally in charge will agree with you and trash all the progress after a hundred posts of arguing. See: Triforce stats.
>>19812434Yeah, thinking about it more, there's probably no chance we'll get both a number of skills divisible by six AND have all those skills be balanced and useful in their own right. Scrap that idea, and If you see me talking about it again, remind me how unlikely it is to work.I still like the idea of alchemy though, seems a good use for the bugs and fish and shit. As does the offhand stat, to make stuff fairer, though it probably would be better to just go the simpler route and apply penalties for dual-wielding.>>19812650For now, yeah, though it might be changed when we get around to looking at the combat system. >>19812506But see, here's my thinking. Potions are consumables. I can see how it would get frustrating that a player could make potions but not a crude wooden sword, so maybe a way to get potions for cheaper if you supply ingredients.
>>19812797Well, stat + skill can also be taken to mean adding them to determine the modifier you add to a fixed-die roll, not just a determiner of dice pool size. Personally, I'd support a fixed-die method, since it'd have the simplest probability curve, but if there's a lot of support for a dice pool I'm cool with that too.Whatever we do should definitely stick with a single die type, though. KISS. The original version used d6s for the sake of being convenient for folks who aren't really into gaming (and thus don't have other kinds of dice) but might want to give it a shot because it's Zelda, which I think was a good idea.
>>19812911I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to craft potions or whatever, just that we don't need to make rules for it. If a player wants to craft consumables or any other item, they can work out a suitable way to handle that with their GM. It shouldn't require the investment of character-advancement resources, especially since some GMs might want the limited access to potions and other consumables to be an important factor for the party to consider.Just keep it a narrative factor, not something defined in the crunch.
>>19812913Yeah, that's true too. At that point, though, we have lots of floating target numbers that vary wildly. Not unwieldy, though. If making a dice pool, then dice rolled above X = success is probably the best way to go about it. If we want to stick with d6s, then make it simply a roll of 5 or 6 is a success ala Arkham Horror (and if you have, say, a magical effect or Granny's Tasty Soup, 4+ is a success, ala a Blessing in Arkham Horror). I may do some figuring and probabilities while I'm at work tommorow (my job is SOOOO slow right now), if the thread's still kicking I may have some more input based on a die pool vs. a modifier + die roll.
>>19813001Makes sense.>>19812913Forgive me for my ignorance, but what is a fixed-dice roll? Is it another name for your average 1d20 or whatever?I'm personally partial to a single die roll + modifiers due to experience with them, but successes from a die pool also seem like they might work. In those systems, bonuses are generally granted as successes or extra dies, yeah?>>19813038If you do, that would be much appreciated.I'm taking off for the night. Your homework is to think about whether you prefer a success-based system or a target number-based system of rolling die, and to post about why you prefer whatever you do.
>>19813348Yeah, fixed-dice means you roll the same die (or set of dice) every time, as opposed to a system like a dice pool where what you roll changes depending on your stats.I think for this system, a success-based dice method would probably be best. While fixed-dice are easier to work out probabilities for, I think a success-based system would be better for people who are new to gaming, and I think making this system have a low barrier of entry for non-gamers would be good. Success-based dice pool systems are pretty straightforward to learn -- roll a handful of dice, see how many come up X or higher. Pretty much no mucking about with math, which is definitely something that tends to turn off non-gamers, even if those who've played a few games before are used to it. Makes it seem more like a game, and less like homework, you know?
So did we decide on which dice system we were going to use?
>>19814489Reading through this thread, I have no damn idea and I don't think anyone else does either.