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  • File :1210072541.jpg-(71 KB, 350x500, nero-web.jpg)
    71 KB Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)07:15 No.1671260  
    A while back I was watching someone play through Devil May Cry 4, and there was an interesting bit of dialog that ocurred after a battle between the half-demon Dante and a mad scientist villain who'd come up with a way to attain massive amounts of power by turning yourself into a demon. I'm paraphrasing, but basically the lines went something like this:

    Glasses McStuttery: Impossible! How can there still be such a gap between your abilities and mine?
    Dante: You sacrificed your humanity. It's that simple.

    Now, the scene goes on to basically imply that "humanity"=having a heart, caring about people, fighting for Twoo Wuv, etc. and that it'll always win out in the end. But Dante's blunt reprimand had already sent me off on my own mental tangent. See, it's always bugged me that the soul had so little meaning in Dungeons and Dragons- it could be a huge part of the fluff, but crunch-wise it's no more than an explanation for things like Level Drain. The only time it really comes up is when you're trying to rule about whether someone can be raised and so on. And it's not just D&D- selling your soul is a classic concept at the core of western supernatural fiction. So why is it always left so vague? Here's how I would approach it. . .
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)07:16 No.1671265
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    In this. . ."cosmology" seems the best word. In this cosmology your soul is the source of your humanity and mortality- when you grow as a person, develop in a way that goes beyond memorizing trivia or lifting weights to bulk up, your soul is the key. Your experiences are the paint, your soul is an infinite canvas and you are the picture.

    The forces of heaven and hell, demons and angels- these beings are not created with souls. They are immortal, and many attain incredible power, but most do not "train" or "learn" even though they are completely sentient. The only way for such a being to develop on their own is to get their hands on a mortal soul, and that is something one can only relinquish willingly. This is why the forces of hell are so willing to bestow untold pleasures upon someone who would sell their soul, particularly a heroic character who has proved their soul's strength- to them the forces of hell will gladly give power. Think of it from a player-character's perspective; snap your fingers and bam, you've got the half fiend template, no further obligations or mandatory alignment change. The forces of hell will give you even more power- more ability score increases and supernatural abilities- as payment for additional services, but that's only if you're interested. Tempting, no?
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)07:16 No.1671268
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    To speak plainly: Without a soul, you stop gaining experience points. Simple as that. You usually don't feel any different at first- you're just as strong and smart as you would be otherwise. But your skills, personality, maturity, alignment- those things will now remain unchanging, like a blooming flower that you pluck and press. You no longer age, though you can still be killed or die of disease- and that's the end of the story. There is no "what happens after you die", because in every sense that matters there is no "you"- just a brain and a body, going through the motions.

    And of course, the forces of evil aren't the only ones who can use souls. An angel can make the exact same bargain. In several good-aligned religions this is seen as an ultimate act of devotion; not something that all should aspire too, but rather an act that goes even further (Some would say too far). Several times, different factions and good-aligned deities have clashed over when (if ever) it is right to accept such a gift and whether they have the right to ask it of their mortal devotees.

    So a demon or celestial who gets a soul can now gain class levels. Just another sort of power to give their side an edge in the eternal war, right? Most outsiders think so- now they can acquire new skills mortals can- but its not quite so simple. See, as soon as they acquire a soul, their fundamental nature is no longer static. The "Always" preceding their alignment disappears, and they even begin to age (albeit slowly). Fallen angels and redeemed devils- normally such a deed is done artificially, by warping their nature with magic. Such methods won't work on an outsider with a soul, which quickly reverts to its true nature; but these outsiders are now fully capable of 'deserting' on their own. A soul is a dangerous thing; a wise outsider never takes such things lightly.

    That's about the whole of it- any thoughts/suggestions?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)07:17 No.1671272
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)07:20 No.1671281
    Not only is this a cool idea, it opens up for a potential campaign of a party of ensouled outsiders that have to contend with having free will and changing. Me like.
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)07:20 No.1671283
    Nice to hear you're fitting in, anonymous. Hope you enjoy your stay!
    >> Clarence, Mage 05/06/08(Tue)07:20 No.1671284
    Very, Very interesting.

    Your imagination is good and you should feel good.
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)07:23 No.1671298
    It really sets up the story well, yeah- after all, succubi and the like are the equivalent of the birds with the rings around their neck, meant to acquire the item for their master instead of keeping it for themselves. What happens when a low-ranking footsoldier gets their hands on a soul and has to try and keep it a secret?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)07:36 No.1671345
    Listen to this man. He speaks the truth, and has harnessed the destructive forces of the Parody Sue.
    Much like Tesla and his cannons.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)07:42 No.1671373
    Dagda... You are awesome on a stick, repeatedly bashing /tg/ with your brilliance.

    I also hate you for taking far more than your fair share of good ideas.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)07:47 No.1671385
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    daga is a pretty cool guy, eh makes great ideas and doesnt afraid of anything

    Pic chosen at random. May be completely unrelated.
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)07:53 No.1671406
    Okay, anyone have any suggestions to offer?

    What sort of ensouled outsider would you play, if that was the campaign your GM was going to run?
    >> Clarence, Mage 05/06/08(Tue)07:56 No.1671417

    I'd play an Angel. Angels are very interesting to me for some reason. Demons and Devils obviously have selfish reasons, and an Angel who becomes Ensouled would have done so for supposedly a reightous reason, but delves into Selfish Reason, as they gain power and more Emotional Depth.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)08:00 No.1671431

    Angelic crusader, styled after the Archangel Uriel from christian mythology- An Angel of Repentance, wielding a flaming sword and merciless as any demon, seeking good through eradication of all evil.
    >> RAWK LAWBSTAR 05/06/08(Tue)08:02 No.1671438
    Dagda you are a sexy beast
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)08:09 No.1671459
    I don't like it. Fuck you Dagda.
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)08:13 No.1671469
    I'd play a Baatezu, especially if he has a gentlemanly attitude even in his demonic form. Whether he chooses to further his descent into evil to redeem himself into the light, I like to do it with class...even though spikes are growing out his body.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)08:14 No.1671471
    Lantern archon, with a soul and a new anthropomorphic body, unsure of how to deal with corporeal sensations and emotions. The lanterns have a pretty vestigial amount of 'divinity' in them anyway, so it shouldn't bump the ECL up by too much, and the character would still retain a certain degree of naivete and uncertainty.

    I can foresee later on poor little Lanty being offered 'upgrades' to higher status (planetar, deva, solar) in exchange for the soul they bear, which gradually grows stronger. It'll be a struggle for little Lanty to hang on to his newfound soul and progress the slow way, eventually exceeding all the planetars who laughed at him when he was first created.

    Sort of the Little Celestial That Could. Make Lanty a female paladin for the lulz.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)08:19 No.1671482
    Well, I think suddenly aging because of a soul needs work. There are beings that don't age and ways to stop aging that don't have "no experience" as a cost.

    Mortals that lose their soul stop aging.. I like that.. but make it not work the other way around. Mortality is a gift packaged with the ability to gain experience because experience piles up. Eventually everyone wants to call it quits. Mortality is the natural "out".

    So an ageless being not only has to contend with a changing nature.. but put up with the pains of potentially living forever with lifetimes of grief.. sorrow.. or even just getting to the point where everything looks like it's repeating itself and their new need for change can't deal with it.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)08:20 No.1671485
    Fallen angel, rising again.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)08:23 No.1671498
    I'd like to play a character that becomes tempted by the offers that Hell and readily accepts them. And instead of realizing his error or turning back, he continues doing what he has always done, except wth the added goal of becoming more and more powerful as he becomes more and more corrupted.

    Needless to say, I like the theme/concept/whathaveyou of corruption.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)08:26 No.1671511
    In 4e they're making corruption a major element to the humans. Its their flaw. I like the idea but if it could have a bit less mechanics and a lot more flavor it would be cooler.
    >> King of the Robots 05/06/08(Tue)08:30 No.1671525
    Getting a soul could be a sorta act of reverse possession (in that the human takes over the demon).

    If you're an X-outsider chewing on 100s of souls over your lifetime, one of them is bound to come back up.

    A least a couple of settings have had the idea where you can gain another's power if you consume them, but part of the process is a battle of wills, where the winner takes it "all". The risk of this is, if you accidentally try to take the powers of a creature with a stronger will than your own, you lose, and they gain the power.

    For this, taking a soul, you suddenly find that soul has bonded on to you.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)08:32 No.1671530
    Really? I'm not too up with all the fourth edition stuff going around. All I know is that the fluff's been blargarg'd to hell and back and shot back to purgatory for the hell of it.

    Also, describe these mechanics and flavor, or provide a link.
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)08:44 No.1671565
    Nah, not the approach I'm going for. In this cosmology you can't have growth without mortality. Undeath, constructs. . .they need a soul to develop too (a la Warforged), they just aren't organized in terms of of acquiring them.
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)08:46 No.1671570
    By mortality, do you mean to include dying of old age?

    Would be cool to see a 'youthful' warforged grow a mesh-wire beard over the span of several years.
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)08:49 No.1671579
    Trouble is that I don't intend to have souls be quite that overt. Your conscious mind can survive without a soul just fine, not counting depression and the like. Still, the soul you acquire can influence *how* you develop- even if the guy was born in the worst part of town and killed for money on a regular basis to get by, if he had a kind nature, then you may start to develop one yourself.

    This is way more compelling than it ought to be. Go for it, little guy! We're all rooting for you!
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)08:54 No.1671593
    I like it. Very Planescapey.
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)08:54 No.1671594
    Basically, yeah. I don't know about a beard, but warforged do indeed grow as people and there are all sorts of physical reflections of that, even if most are deliberate actions on their part (compensating for a lack of biological ones). I can see it turning out that most warforged have their "circuitry" or whatever slowly break down even in the face of constant maintenance, giving them an effective average "lifespan" of only a century or two.
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)08:54 No.1671599
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    Forgot mah pic.
    >> String Games 05/06/08(Tue)09:02 No.1671624
    How do you explain the elves?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:08 No.1671647
    I was going to say pretty much the same thing.

    Although a hound archon would be interesting as well, it'd be fun to have a stuffy lawful hound archon receive a chaotic good soul.

    Having him struggle to fit in with the ranks of the other hounds as his increasingly exuberant personality begins to assert it's self, finally he leaves their company feeling stifled and joins a rowdy adventuring group.
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)09:10 No.1671653
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    I'm a bit slow, Dagda, so let me get this straight: Basically, potentially immortal beings such as angels, demons, and constructs are willing to sacrifice their immortality for the power to break their 'template'-based limits through the power of experience?

    So, at least from my point of view, beings like angels, demons and constructs are creatures that are formed with inherently large power compared to mortals, but that power eventually 'plateaus' at some point.

    Mortals, on the other hand, start off weak, but due to them having 'souls', are able to advance in power at a very fast rate, their capacity to become very powerful limited by woefully short lifespans.

    This chart illustrates the power accretion that I had in mind. Am I more or less in tune with what you are talking about?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:10 No.1671655
    >>You no longer age, though you can still be killed or die of disease- and that's the end of the story.

    You turn into a zombie?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:10 No.1671656
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:16 No.1671672
    The air in the crypt hung still and heavy, where only moments ago it had rung with the sounds of battle; the clamour of steel and the sizzle of reality being ripped open by potent magics.

    The melee was over, and silence had fallen like a curtain of felt, dimming and darkening. Small fragments still smouldered in the corners of the ancient tomb, casting wavering shadows on the old stones.

    A single bell-like tone broke the silence, and a light that had no mortal source kindled within. A spark of scintillating brilliance hung in the air, emitting that pure, clarion note. It hovered for a moment, as if uncertain, before zipping through the dank air, lighting first over one still figure, then another. It seemed to be looking for something. Its movements grew ever more frantic, until a wracking cough tore the silence. There was a creak of mouldering timbers, and then a loud crash as the armour-clad figure, lying half-buried beneath what was left of an oak-and-iron door, pulled itself free of its confinement only to lie, shuddering for breath.

    The spark darted over. In the light of its glimmer, an observer might have made out the fine features of the woman who lay there, gasping for breath. She fumbled at the straps of her armour, perhaps to loosen it to facilitate breathing, but her nerveless fingers proved unable to work the buckles, and she subsided, her breathing laboured, sucking in the fetid air of the tomb with such a rasping desperation as if it were the sweetest, flower-scented breeze.

    Her eyes opened at the sound that the spark made. They were clouded with pain and shock, but she blinked them rapidly, and they cleared somewhat, as she regarded the little ball of light that hung over her face, chiming almost like a purring cat trying to comfort a stricken owner.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:17 No.1671675

    "Unless," she said, her voice hoarse with screaming but somewhat thick with ironic humour, "I miss my guest, you're an emissary of the one I have served for so long."

    The light dipped for a moment and sparked, as if nodding.

    She heaved a sigh that turned into another fit of coughing, as the light flitted to and fro in alarm. "Well, just in time, I guess. You're here to take my soul, aren't you?"

    The light dipped again, but even as the woman smiled, her features beneath the mask of blood still beautiful and young, her eyes widened in alarm at the sound of a telltale scrape. Part of the pile of bones that lay amongst scraps of cloth that might once have been a robe was shifting. The skull rotated on the ground for a moment, as if looking around, before rising on invisible currents, and whisking itself out of the chamber.

    "That damned lich!" the paladin gasped. "We must have missed its phylactery. It'll be weeks before anyone finds us here, and by then it'll be too late! If only I had more time!" She coughed again, and fresh blood splattered across her gleaming breastplate. "Little archon, isn't there anything you can do?"

    The light wavered in uncertainty. It was pledged not to interfere in the events of the Prime Material Plane. It was a messenger and observer, not an agent of change. Nonetheless, something in the woman's pleading look seemed to touch what passed for a heart within the thing. Its glow dimmed, then brightened, and the sound it emitted swelled as if joined by a chorus, a whispering that enfolded the paladin.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:17 No.1671678
    She listened to it for a while, occasionally asking questions, but her strength was fading and they both knew the urgency of what must be accomplished before the spark of life left her body.

    The light dipped closer, coming to rest on her forehead, quivering almost like a butterfly lighting on a flower. Its glow brightened, until it would have been unbearable for any mortal observer. The note it emitted grew higher and higher, breaking from melody with an agonized screech that came both from the archon and the paladin - a scream that broke off into more tortured coughing, as the light faded.

    The paladin still coughed and struggled to draw breath, but with less desperation. She laid her hands on herself, glowing for a moment with unearthly vitality, before clambering laboriously to her feet, rising with the help of her sword, wobbling unsteadily as if newborn.

    She opened her eyes to regard the chamber, and behind those eyes glowed a cerulean light. A celestial flame illuminated her as if from within.

    She took a single step forward and immediately fell on her face amidst the clamour of armour striking stone. She groaned. "One step at a time," she muttered.

    Within that battered body, the soul of the paladin withdrew in on itself, and the consciousness of the archon expanded to fill the gap. It felt a barrage of newfound sensations, not least of which was pain.

    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)09:21 No.1671694
    Mmmmm...sounds good so far. Proceed.
    >> String Games 05/06/08(Tue)09:24 No.1671709
    Well.. beings like that aren't so much born as made.

    There would never be any period of gain at all, I think. They just pop into existence as they are. Powerful. Knowledgeable. They would have never known the pleasure of figuring out something for themselves or working hard to achieve strength and talent..
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:26 No.1671713
    That's pretty much it. The paladin/archon now has to round up a new bunch of allies to finish some business, all the while being pursued by its celestial superiors, who want to know what the hold up is on the paladin's soul and who will also want it to stop interfering in mortal affairs. I can foresee some Inevitables also showing up just to announce THIS IS NOT DONE and attempt to forcibly separate ensouled celestial from mortal existence - at the edge of a sword. And those are just the GOOD guys. There's still a lich running around out there out for vengeance.

    I have decided that one of the paladin's party members will be a half-elf bard who is hot for her, and who the celestial will have to keep fending off. Maybe the bard will eventually get through to "her" and the archon will embrace the full beauty and passion of mortal existence.

    Cue buckets of tears when everything is over and both archon, which never had a body to begin with, and paladin, who never knew the bard, have to depart.
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)09:27 No.1671719
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    So their 'power accretion' is stagnant?

    Adjusting chart...

    Would this be more indicative with what you say?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:28 No.1671722

    That scale better go to 10 000.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:29 No.1671726
    ITS OVER 9000!
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)09:32 No.1671734

    I knew someone would make mention of that. Which is precisely why I did not put any numbers. I don't want that youtube video running in my head again.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:32 No.1671738
    Tying morality into it seems like a bad idea.

    Wouldn't this make devils and demons not want souls because they'd turn into moralfags when they got them, making them useless to their superiors?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:33 No.1671742

    It would provide a fluff reason for seeking out the most evil bastards for soul-devouring.
    >> Clarence, Mage 05/06/08(Tue)09:34 No.1671744

    I'd like to add the fact that /tg/ hates Captain Obvious, unless it's drawn to RIDICULOUSLY stupid levels by the ENTIRE community, ala THAT HORSE IS SMALL.

    Small scale obvious is frowned upon, weak, and unintelligent.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:35 No.1671751

    But....they tend to go after purer souls.

    Moreover, if its' tied to your morality, then the evil people wouldn't really have very strong souls, would they...
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)09:38 No.1671761
    To clarify: you ARE referring to the 'over nine-thousand' meme with regards to the 'small-scale obvious'?

    Pardon again. I really am slow at times. Especially when I'm very tired.
    >> Clarence, Mage 05/06/08(Tue)09:40 No.1671773

    Yes I am. Don't worry, everyone's gurgh when tired.
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)09:41 No.1671776
    Unless the current universe considers the 'purity' of a soul synonymous to 'potential for growth'.
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)09:42 No.1671784
    Pretty much. Of course, this is only if you limit "power"'s definition to skill/experience. Outsiders can still acquire magic items, get promoted to a higher form, that sort of thing.

    Also, I'd cast mortal's increase as being more linear.

    Yeah, I'd say it doesn't go beyond the very subtle. If a being gets someone else's soul, goes adventuring for a year and then pays a visit, small things about them will remind you of the person who sold their soul- similar to comparing the behavior of a parent and their child. It doesn't dictate their chice of alignment, class, whatever.
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)09:44 No.1671794
    Or varying, for that matter. Some mortals advance in a linear rate, while other, more ambitious ones are capable of fast development, as reflected by the parabolic graph.
    >> Clarence, Mage 05/06/08(Tue)09:44 No.1671798

    What happens if a mortal gets ahold of another soul?
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)09:46 No.1671807
    Nah, I'd say that the movement rate would vary but the acceleration would generally stay at 0 unless the character experiences a major lifestyle change (starts/stops adventuring, mainly).
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)09:49 No.1671822
    In that case morality would be a bad choice of words.

    Something like how Ms. Marvel regained her memories of her family but none of the emotional connections.
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)09:51 No.1671829
    It wouldn't really be beneficial to try and contain multiple souls within a single body/mind- though the theoretical potential for twice as much advancement means that there would definitely be some people willing to try and experiment. Really, the most likely result if someone managed to force two souls to stay in one body would be that that person would start to develop two increasingly deviant personalities, complete with altering appearances when they shift (Not so much blatant physical alterations as changes in how they move and (it seems) the lighting).
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)09:54 No.1671834
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    Oh yeah, you're right. So would this be more accurate?
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)09:57 No.1671845
    A soul is seperate from body and mind. It's like. . .you know the analogy where I said "Your experiences are the paint, your soul is an infinite canvas and you are the picture"? I take it back, the canvas is what we're born as, with outsiders coming with something printed on the canvas to begin with. Your soul is the paintbrush, the only way for paint to get onto the canvas. You can take a brush from someone, wash it, and use a completely different set of paints; but a thick brush will still paint differently than a thin one.
    >> Dagda !hTbo821v7U 05/06/08(Tue)09:57 No.1671847
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)10:02 No.1671865

    Couldn't resist.

    But what about adventurer-mortals(so as to separate them from the commoners) who are untouched by outsiders? How would the painting analogy be applied to them?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)10:04 No.1671872
    wait don't tell me dante in DMC4 is a fag again. Why can't he just be like DMC3 forever. Doing ridiculous shit and making fun of people all the time forever.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)10:12 No.1671911

    Loli-Lanturn Archon?

    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)10:13 No.1671916
    A lantern is a wisp-looking creature, right?

    I might do this as a 'before-I-sleep' project.

    Loli lantern paladin, right?
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)10:26 No.1671971
    Anyway, how would one envision an anthropomorphic lantern/human hybrid?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)10:48 No.1672063

    So would it be a possibility for someone to try and split their soul into multiple containers, to try and achieve a kind of pseudo-immortality, but still keep the benefits of advancement? Yes I'm thinking of Voldemort.

    Would a Lich just be someone who has removed their souls and has chosen not to give it to anyone? Perhaps so that there is an afterlife for them after they die?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)10:49 No.1672068
    Voldy should have fucking won the last HP Book. I mean fucking seriously.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)10:50 No.1672076
    There's the Eidolon spell, which lets you create another you at like half your level, but it's not permanent. There's also Heart of Stone, which lets you swap your heart for a big ol' rock and hide it away to protect it.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)10:53 No.1672095
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    So someone without a soul is not aging?

    Quite interesting..
    >> Synbios !TUyewbhdRo 05/06/08(Tue)10:54 No.1672102
    Can't age, but can't gain experience.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)10:55 No.1672107
    Man, I don't usually say things like this, but I really hate when you post here. You are much more tolerable amongst the shitstorm of /v/
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)11:17 No.1672214
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    Fun stuff. Pity D&D cosmology fills me with ire and hatred.

    I've always run with the idea that the desire for souls stems from the fact that souls are the substance "Spiritus Dei": lit. The Breath of God. Each human has the breath of the Creator as an indivisible part of him that can only be given up through choice.
    Spiritus Dei is an integral part of God's omnificent powers, what animates and drives reason and wisdom in humans can be harnessed and used for near-limitless creation in realms beyond human ken.
    If, behind the paper-thin tapestry of our world, the angelic beings wage wars then surely it is Hell’s best interests to gain and manifest the power of the creator-God (whom, we assume, the loyalist forces are also separated from) to warp and twist reality and thus further their dominion.

    My players, of course, chose to be the Fallen.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)11:20 No.1672230
    your genius lost in a see of anonymous faces
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)11:52 No.1672338
    I don't care for it. Exp is the driving force of players and taking that away takes away any motivation to trade one's soul for power in the minds of players.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:00 No.1672380

    Honestly, if xp is the primary driving force of player action, you are doing something wrong.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:07 No.1672415
    Alot of somethings id say
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:08 No.1672420
    No, you're doing something right. Regardless of what "roleplayers" say, metagame motivations do and SHOULD apply. If a player knows that they wont be advancing at all without a soul, they aren't likely to do it, and tricking them into doing it is assholish and bad sport. Jesus Christ, it's as much a game as it is a story, NUMBERS MATTER IN GAMES.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:13 No.1672441

    Thats your opinion, i think its bullshit, and you suck at reading comprehension. Metagame motivation should be at most the secondary, if not tertiary motivation behind the actions, with their characters personal goals, the overarching metaplot or various duties taking priority. For me, freeform RP's are an ideal kindof like communism- a nice idea which never works due to human nature. Therefore, you add a system to the story to keep things in line. But the story is always more important than the system- the flow of narrative always takes precedent over what the numbers say.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:16 No.1672454
    Its people like you who dont deserve the legacy of Gygax
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:16 No.1672460
    Yes the number matter... TO HELP TELL THE STORY!!!
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:16 No.1672462
    and I believe in keeping a fair game with a nice story, note the story is put second
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:17 No.1672467
    Want to play some Nobilis on IRC this weekend?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:18 No.1672470

    So, that quirk of grammar means what exactly?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:18 No.1672471
    Go fuck his corpse then.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:18 No.1672475

    What day, what time, what server, what channel? I fucking love Nobilis
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:20 No.1672481
    My question here is: why does the story require taking one of the most basic concepts of fantasy and turning it into a statistical shot in the foot?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:20 No.1672482

    All of us at /tg/ owe gygax an unpayable debt. He is the father of the modern form of our subculture. Yes, he had his flaws, yes he had his mistakes. But without mistakes, we never learn. Respect his memory, though don't idolize him- He had serious flaws, and made some bad decisions. But don't let that make you any less grateful for his impact.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:20 No.1672484
    Awesome! You sir are a genius!
    What system are you running this game in?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:26 No.1672512
    I'll state my point simply: selling your soul to gain the half fiend template IS NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES balanced by losing the ability to gain experience permanently. Selling your soul needs to be tempting, and when a player knows they wont be advancing, I'm willing to bet 9 out 10 players wont do it unless they're planning to destroy a campaign.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:27 No.1672518
    Hmm.. Hadn't put much thought into it, just a passing idea. Perhaps a new thread should be started...
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:32 No.1672538
    Fuckgreat idea, Dagda. You better believe this into my brainbox.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:33 No.1672540

    Probably not. But you balance it by other means- Rather than experience based progression, they're granted additional gifts by hell lords or elevated in rank in exchange for services. Honestly, you seem rather too fixated upon the mechanics. Just homebrew dude, it'll be fine.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:34 No.1672548
    Mechanics matter when playing a game, that's where I sit and that's where I stay.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:35 No.1672557

    Yes, they matter. But you seem to be acting like they are the be all and end all.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:36 No.1672565

    Well he said that soulless beings like Archons and Demons can gain power by advancing to a higher form or by obtaining magical items. Perhaps this is possible for soulless PCs?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:39 No.1672579
    Yes, they matter - otherwise you'd have a collective story-telling exercise (no bad thing) as opposed to a game. But if they're the driving force you get a collective exercise in accountancy, which isn't anyone's ideal of fun. Not even accountants.
    >> Cat's Cradle 05/06/08(Tue)12:45 No.1672620
    People WILL play a storytelling only style of game. I do it all the time. There are people that RP for the sake of RP.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:53 No.1672675
    This is entire thread is discriminating against robots.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)12:56 No.1672695
    You could also make the argument that the original transfer is not quite complete. Perhaps the purer souls transfer more completely, thus allowing for more power (and perhaps more bits of personality).
    Perhaps, given enough time, the soul might even repair itself (maybe you have to have a minimum amount of soul for this to work). This could even allow celestials/etc to gain a small amount of their own soul, (influenced by the borrowed soul, of course) though not enough to repair itself once the original soul is freed/transferred/etc.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)14:40 No.1673204
    So (for the sake of argument) if souls were SO valuable to demons, and humans (being the greedy, impatient bastards that they are) decide to go along with this, why would they need any more after say the first thousand years? Or do souls run out (fade away or whatever) if used in this improper way? Might be a strange way to redeem an evil person by angels, or a way to condemn an otherwise good person for demons...
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)14:53 No.1673284
    I assume there wouldn't be a limit to just angels devils demons and the like, right? Elementals are outsiders... and a Monk Earth Elemental would be kinda nifty.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)14:57 No.1673316
    I perfer to think of it as an arms race sort of thing, rather than just something they need.

    Demons and Devils are constantly collecting souls to make sure that the other doesn't have more, nevermind the infighting within each side.

    Furthermore, Angels are collecting souls as well to counter whatever it is that the fiends have planned, but are otherwise loathe to do so. Perhaps they can manage to keep up because their souls are generally quite willing(like, for a bigger cause over myself willing) and this makes whatever more powerful(or it could be that for them, it's an end, not a beginning, they give their souls up after they've gained all the power they ever needed)
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)15:00 No.1673343

    sounds good
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)16:33 No.1674080
    So are Liches the result of sealing your seal into an outside object. The closer they are to it the better they can think and use the powers they had, the further away the more their mind becomes like an undead. This can be a ritual developed by the kings that would become mummies, they are confined to their crypt and have to rely on workers to get things done for them.

    Elves could have artificial souls since they were created for a purpose. It is only by traveling with humans do they become fully aware. This explains their long life and lvl 1 elves being 50 years old.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)16:38 No.1674113
    In the homebrew system that I'm whipping up, there is a stat that relates to the soul, spiritual power, and the Nobility of Character.

    Immortals (Who use a brain-replaced-with-computer technique) and cyborgs get instant 0s.
    >> Boston Tentacle Party !!sS2TVHm9A4b 05/06/08(Tue)17:16 No.1674394
    A motherfucking Imp.

    Hell yeah.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)17:53 No.1674661
         File :1210110807.jpg-(109 KB, 400x536, warforged6.jpg)
    109 KB
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)17:59 No.1674707
    An unpayable debt? Then I declare bankruptcy, I will not pay him or his heritage a single penny.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)18:10 No.1674789
    Well, I suppose the question to ask would be what the hell happens to your soul after you die and you didn't give it to anyone. Does it float aimlessly in some kind of purgatory, or is it reincarnated into an outsider with matching alignment, the form of which depends on the strength of the soul itself when it died. Thus, outsiders are made of soul-stuff, but do not actually possess a soul. This also ensures that as long as there are people dieing, there are always more outsiders appearing trying to get their souls.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)18:27 No.1674899

    That brings up another question.

    Where do souls come from?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)18:39 No.1674967
    Hmm... interesting thread...

    I've thought about the same considerations, and came to something different, with the basic dualism of the "mortal" races being important (souls in my world don't go to any planes since I don't have the outer planes, but rather decay naturally with the body unless something else intervenes...). However, anybody with the outsider template is not dualistic - their body is also their soul. Mechanically there's a similar solution - they progress by evolving their soul rather than through levelling usually, since it's so much more effective normally. Mind you, this means that all outsiders have a good reason to reform on their native plane... since I make them dissolve after too long divorced from it. The advantages of hitting monk 20 become more obvious if, when killed on another plane, you're fine if your friends finish the thing off then summon you back.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/08(Tue)23:09 No.1676458

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