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  • File : 1295048262.jpg-(22 KB, 320x400, morrow-chara01.jpg)
    22 KB Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:37 No.13522237  
    So what's the deal with slavery in Morrowind? Why beast races are enslaved and noone does nothing to change that?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:39 No.13522256
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    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:39 No.13522259
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    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:41 No.13522267
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    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:43 No.13522293

    Why is anyone enslaved? Look at that and you should find your answer.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:43 No.13522294
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    It is our birth right.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:44 No.13522303
    Because they're not considered real people by the natives.
    And the empire doesn't do anything because Tiber Septim made a deal with Vivec that basically allowed Vivec to do whatever the fuck he wants. But hey, Tiber Septim got an artificial god out of it, so it's probably win-win or something.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:45 No.13522321
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    It's because of the damn cliff racers.

    >>Captcha: harsh harsheat
    Yes, the ashlands are a harsh place, Captcha.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)18:46 No.13522327
    A few reasons. First, while Morrowind is technically a part of the Empire, they were never conquered and got an extremely favorable accord, meaning that their laws and traditions are enforced above Imperial law. Second, Black Marsh is on the southern border of Morrowind, making it relatively easy to launch slave-raids on isolated Argonian communities. Third, Argonians are just different from Dunmer, meaning that it's easier to justify enslaving them from the Dunmer point of view.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:47 No.13522340
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    Because Argonia is a stone's throw from Dres (the biggest slavers in all of Morrowind) land so you get lots of argonian slaves that way.

    No idea how they get so many Khajiiti ones though. Or why.

    But any race can be enslaved in Morrowind. Dunmer just seem to have a thing for scales and fur, I guess.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:48 No.13522348
    'cause grimdark, fool
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)18:52 No.13522382

    Well, the beast races aren't even considered sapient by the more traditionalist Dunmer. They treat them more as beasts of burden that managed to pick up a few tricks, like speech. They acknowledge that the mannish races may or may not be sapient and have souls, which is why they're enslaved somewhat less frequently, but no such restriction applies to the Betmeri. Besides, it's a fairly easy sail from the harbor at Tear to various places along Elsweyr, explaining the presence of Khajiti slaves, while the northern sea passage is blocked by glaciers and the roads to Skyrim and Cyrodiil are blocked by mountains. Not only is it easier to capture the beast races geographically, they're on the fringes of the Empire and have to put up with meddling Imperials less.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:53 No.13522396
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    What are you on and where can I purchase some?

    >pattats yourself.

    Yeah, you can pattat yourself too, Captcha. S'wit.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)18:56 No.13522421
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    Morrowind was a pretty bleak game at times, when you think about it. The landscape is dour and hostile, the natives the same, slavery is accepted, sacred necromancy is practiced while a theocratic Inquisition hunts down and kills philosophical necromancers and members of other cults, and a mad, dreaming god at the center of a volcano sends out hordes of plagued minions to sweep away all non-Dunmer from Morrowind.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)18:57 No.13522430
    Well, grimdark is probably too strong a word, but Morrowind is at least drearybleak.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)19:04 No.13522473
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    The only thing keeping Morrowind from grimdark is the player-character. If it weren't for the Nerevarine, Morrowind would be fucked. Well, fucked in a slightly different way. That whole "Ministry of Truth" falling thing almost makes you wish Dagoth Ur had won, eh?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:06 No.13522488
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    I'm gunna say it was pretty grimdark becasue everyone you helped, everyone (especially the ashlanders) who though "Oh Lord Nervarine gunna lead us all ovah da rainbow to the promised land of no mor temple or volcano an no mor slavery." got their asses fucked with the Nervarine buggered off to the mystic east Vivec got his 'lol, Highest Love~" trollery by letting the moon fall, the volcano erupts, oh and EVERYBODY AND THEIR GRANDMA INVADES EVERYWHERE! INCLUDING FUCKING HELL! ect ect ect.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:07 No.13522506
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    Because they're beast races.



    I have a team of them slaving away in my kwama mine in Uvirith's Grave.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)19:09 No.13522523

    Given the location, I always thought that a glass mine, a diamond mine, or an ebony mine would have been more thematically appropriate for Building Up Uvirith's Grave. Seriously, there's lava down there! That is no place for finicky giant bugs to lay eggs!
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:11 No.13522538
    Ugh, don't remind me of that. It's almost like those guys are deliberately trolling me.
    "Liked Morrowind? Well guess what, we're just gonna completely and utterly annihilate any possibility of a future game ever being set there again. No need to thank us!"
    Not that a future Morrowind game could ever satisfy me, glittering gem of hatred that I am.

    Although it does kind of make sense that Vivec's waning powers would make Baar Dau fall again. But did it have to take half a province with it?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:11 No.13522539
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    Vardenfel's wildlife fucking loves lava or something.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)19:14 No.13522569
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    It wasn't the Ministry of Truth falling that really bothered me. I thought that it made a lot of sense within the game. What doesn't make sense is for the Argonians and Nords to effortlessly swat aside the Daedric invasions and simultaneously invade Morrowind as the Moon is falling and the Volcano erupting. Morrowind could have probably weathered one or two disasters, but not three separate invasions, a volcanic eruption, and a meteoric impact. Just about the only safe places left in Morrowind are Telvannis lands, and even then it's primarily because they're so geographically isolated.

    Here, I made a map! It took me until approximately the heat-death of the universe to make this in Paint.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:19 No.13522628
    The Red Mountain thing bothers me because I thought it only erupted when a Dragon Break occurs. Although I'm still not quite sure what a Dragon Break is, and if there was one during/after Oblivion. The way I understand it, a Dragon Break is just weird time shit, right? Several mutually exclusive things all happening simultaneously, like all the endings of Daggerfall. Was there something like that after Oblivion?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:22 No.13522660
    It's a still a volcano a large seismic event like a moon impact would cause an eruption, any dragon break eruptions I'd call coincidence or related to the now gone Heart of Lorkhan
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)19:23 No.13522668

    Nah. The last time it erupted was at the Tribunal's apotheosis and the ensuing Dragonbreak, but it doesn't erupt for every single Dragonbreak ever. At any rate, it probably then erupted because Lorkhan thought it would be suitably dramatic or something. Also, no Dragon Break occurred to my knowledge in Oblivion, although you never know. The ending of the Shivering Isles was somewhat interesting, in that it's the first time a mortal has mantled a psuedo-Daedric entity, so we don't really know what that would cause. Probably not a Dragonbreak, though, because it takes place within Oblivion and not the Mundus.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:24 No.13522675
    Blame red mountain erupting.
    All the meteor did was turn vivec city into a crater.(and set off some chain reaction, since they needed some reason for red mountain's eruption)
    For the mainland, blame the invasions.
    Though, really, you'd imagine house Dres to put up a better fight against a few races they could handle well enough on home terrain to bring back hordes of slaves.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:28 No.13522717
    >finish most of Morrowind
    >hey, I wonder what happened to everyone I saved in the canon?
    >expecting happiness and rainbows

    Well that made my accomplishments feel smaller less notable.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)19:29 No.13522723
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    To be fair to the Dres, they were still reeling from the loss of their three Gods whom they'd worshiped for millenia and also a Daedric invasion. I suppose the justification is that, apart from Cyrodiil, Mehrunes Dagon was most strenuously targeting Morrowind for revenge and it bore the brunt of his assaults. Although you are right. The Dres had been stalking and capturing Argonians for centuries on their home turf, so unless all of Tear's warriors had already been wiped out the Argonian invasion doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially because it was only a single rogue Hist and his army invading, rather than the entire nation.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)19:31 No.13522743
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    Nah, the Nerevarine directly caused the Oblivion Crisis and thereby the chain of events that led to Morrowind's destruction. So your accomplishments mattered! You just inadvertently killed everyone you ever knew or loved! Nerevar would be proud.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:34 No.13522770
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    >You just inadvertently killed everyone you ever knew or loved! Nerevar would be proud.

    To be fair, they killed him first, multiple times even.

    >surviving luche

    exactly captacha
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:47 No.13522896
    Fuck, here I thought I had Elder Scrolls cosmology figured out, and you fuckers start talking about Dragon Breaks and the Nereveravorivorime being responsible for the Oblivion crisis somehow.

    Fucking Bethesda.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:51 No.13522917
    You're not supposed to have the elder scrolls cosmology figured out.
    That said, the dragon break is more or less the explanation for the "canon" Daggerfall ending, which is all of them.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:55 No.13522953
    Since we're already being confused here, anyway:
    What is CHIM, does Vivec have it, could it have allowed him to stop the ministry/volcano/invasion/whatever?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:58 No.13522978
    >What is CHIM,
    Basically true godhood, or certain death after realizing how the world works. Also an ingame explanation for the console commands.
    >does Vivec have it,
    Possibly, but unlikely.
    >could it have allowed him to stop the ministry/volcano/invasion/whatever?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)19:59 No.13522991
    Logically; what would of been the effects if you killed Vivec? I've read there is a way to beat the game even if you kill him; though I'm more curious about what do you think would change in the events that occur afterwards.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:01 No.13523007
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    >What is CHIM,
    Fuck if I know, the closest I understand it's metaknowledge, which is anything from a Buddist cosmic 'emptiness' to being implied to 'understand' that one is a videogame character.
    >does Vivec have it,
    oh yes, if it exists that is.
    >could it have allowed him to stop the ministry
    Stop it? hell he caused it, so yes.
    can't say, but it couldn't have hurt.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:02 No.13523014
    CHIM is a being that realizes that its actually all a dream (kinda) and that everything is part of everything else. It is a huge battle of will to remain an existing thing after that point. most things that achieve CHIM simply dissipate into everything else.

    But if strong enough to actually force the point and go 'I'm just part of everything else but fuck you universe I'm still a distinct thing' its basically like getting access to the game editor whilst playing.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:04 No.13523037
    A lot of shit started because he went missing.
    So that shit would come around sooner.
    Not entirely sure how it would play out on the whole, though.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)20:07 No.13523061
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    A Dragon Break occurs whenever weird time shit goes down and Akatosh had to fix it. This usually happens when a mortal ascends to godhood, or a god is killed/split up, or something else involving gods happens. Basically, he picks up all the shards of time and stitches it together as best he can, but there are some minor inconsistencies. Have you ever read Thief of Time? It's a lot like that.

    Second, the Nerevarine helped cause the Oblivion Crisis by destroying/banishing the Heart of Lorkhan. The Heart was the key to the Red Tower, one of the metaphysical anchors keeping reality pinned down. It's destruction weakened the barriers between Nirn and Oblivion, meaning that White-Gold tower was the last anchor standing, and it's key being taken out of commission would allow Mehrunes Dagon to invade.

    Third, CHIM. To understand CHIM, you need to understand that the Elder Scrolls reality is basically the dream of an immortal sleeping godhead, unawake and unaware. To achieve CHIM is to realize that you are nothing but the figment of a figment of an imagination, while still retaining your sense of individuality. Most people can't do this, and "Zero-Sum", or fade out of reality and become one with the Godhead. Those who retain their sense of self, the ability to say "I", achieve CHIM, and act as lucid dreamers, able to change the world around them as they see fit, and are essentially omnipotent. However, they risk losing their sense of self, and if they do, they Zero-Sum and fade out of existance. It's a fine line, realizing that you are a dream and yet retaining self-awareness. If you forget the former, you go back to sleep. If you forget the latter, you fade away.

    I don't even want to go into what Dagoth Ur really was, because that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:07 No.13523063
    goddamnit, reinstalling

    does anyone have that jpeg of all the essential mods and the order to install them so morrowind looks really pretty?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:11 No.13523097
    You know what I'm going to fucking love? When we get an updated Morrowind Mod for TES:V
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)20:11 No.13523098

    This (http://forums.encyclopediadramatica.com/showthread.php?t=9644) guide is regarded by /v/irgins as being the most up-to-date and comprehensive. Ignore the Encyclopaedia Dramatica link; apart from a few minor quibbles I have with the author's choices, it's actually a rather good introductory guide.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:13 No.13523116
    So what happens when someone achieve CHIM, bugs the shit out through improper console use and crashes the game?
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)20:14 No.13523123

    He boots it back up and reloads his last save. Duh.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:15 No.13523128
    Does anyone have a good link to download Morrowind? I never got it for PC, had it for Xbox instead (my PC sucked at the time).

    I too would love this essential mod list as well.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:15 No.13523131
    Dragon Break.
    Chimguy probably ceases to exist.
    Gods need to fix up your shit.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:16 No.13523135
    Havent we gotten into the habit of taking the eldar scrolls seriously yet?
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)20:16 No.13523139

    Don't know where to download it the game, but once you do find it I posted the guide here >>13523098.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:17 No.13523147
    So what was Dagoth Ur?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:18 No.13523155
    Thank you Alpharius
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)20:18 No.13523157

    He dreams that he lives. I'll get into it more later when I'm not about to eat dinner.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:21 No.13523186

    If you torrent it make sure to get the GOTY edition, as there are differences in regional copies that mess up mods. (Unknowingly installed the British version, took me awhile to figure that out.)

    Also, what does /tg/ think of using BRP for a Morrowind campaign? Or should I just use 2E, as it's all based on a 2E campaign to begin with?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:21 No.13523188
    I don't understand why people complain about the destruction of Morrowind. The love letter from the fifth era says that it was basically the best thing that ever happened to the Dunmer, that a new and vigorous Dunmer culture thrives underground and in Skyrim with all sorts of crazy Dunmer quirks dialled up to eleven, with extra magic spaceships.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:22 No.13523189

    Hey Guys, Listen.

    What if.

    What if the Dwemer obtained CHIM.

    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:22 No.13523197
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:23 No.13523207
    BRP is pretty awesome. But so is 2E.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:23 No.13523213
    Reading through this guide. Man thats a hell ton of mods. Maybe I'll get lucky and find a friend who has all this shit installed and he can just drop box the whole folder over to me.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:24 No.13523221
    Britfag here, I've never had any problems with mod compatibility.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:25 No.13523233
    Open the can, fagballs.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:28 No.13523267
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    Because in Cyrodiil elves are slaves.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:29 No.13523269
    >magic spaceships
    >Belief-engines, properly called the “Auxiliary Semi-Shockpoint Nilgularity”, provide energy for short dream-sleeve jumps in case a Vehkship’s main ego is damaged, allowing the C0DA Paravant to potentially get to the safety of a voidyard orbital.

    By creating the equivalent of an Nu-class Mnemolic, shrinking it instantaneously via a creatia tesseract array, and then projecting the resulting moth-talk well to a nil-point just outside the ego’s hull, an ASSN can slingshot the Paravant into era-streams without the needed energies of nearby aetheric bodies or shockpoint application.

    The ASSN is strictly Last Ditch technology, however. It’s often deemed as too dangerous for its own good, because it works on the rarified principles of Phynaster’s Inversion, a set of mathematics that doesn’t exist in our own dimension. Vehkships have vanished in nil-space trying to make an ASSN jump—indeed, the celestial irregularity known as the M4bV Legerity, in which the C0DA Oblivion Vanquisher appears and implodes in perpetuity, is the belief system’s most famous cautionary tale.

    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:31 No.13523294

    >updated morrowind

    By the time TES V happens Vivec is dead and Morrowind was conquered by Argonians.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:32 No.13523306
    I think by that point the Argonians are all zombies in the thrall of Umbriel.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:33 No.13523313
    Even knowing it's not the real reason, CHIM makes me think of what happened to the dwarves. I know they all somehow merged into the essence of a new god or something, but it still reminds me of the whole "completely gone one day" thing.

    That being said, Im rather mediocre with the whole lore angle. Stupid question: what are the elder scrolls anyway? Never found a simple answer. Dot hey alter reality? Hold it together? Simply hold great secrets? Incredible magic? I know a scroll was stolen in the thief arc in oblivion, and it was treated as a BIG FUCKING DEAL.

    That being said, I can see some people not considering Khajiit real people, as the entire species varies enormously, from four legged creatures that look like giant cats to humanoids to every color and shade and shape in between.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:33 No.13523317
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    No, they fell one step short.
    "To achieve CHIM is to realize this, to recognize the Godhead, to see that everything is him, that you are him, and still maintaining your individuality. You are still able to say I, and thus you have achieved CHIM. In knowing that everything is merely an extension of the same thing, an extension of you, you have power over it in the same way you can move your arm. It is like a little part of the Godhead having a lucid dream, where he is still dreaming though he knows he is dreaming and thus has control over the dream."

    They could not maintain ego in the face of this forbidden knowledge. They were not ready, perhaps too weak, perhaps unable to process the sudden revelation, not having built up the mental fortitude; or perhaps it was the sudden and simultaneous realization in every dwemer on Nirn that they were all one and the same person, matter, spirit, etc.

    In any case, such absolute knowledge would unmake them, leaving nothing in their passing save for ghosts of mer long since dead. They were and then were not. Only memory remains.

    That's like literalist Hinduism right there, Jesus fuck.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:34 No.13523330
    Want to know what happened to the Dwarves? They became Lorkhan's body, rather than being completely unmade.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:35 No.13523344
    They're a set of (presumably) Aedric scrolls that can be 'tuned' to a particular time and used as tools of prophecy. They are a HUGE FUCKING DEAL.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:36 No.13523345
    The Eldar scrolls are scrolls.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:36 No.13523354
    The elder scrolls are pretty much divine scrolls that record everything there is to know about the past, present, and future.

    > I can see some people not considering Khajiit real people, as the entire species varies enormously, from four legged creatures that look like giant cats to humanoids to every color and shade and shape in between.
    Same applies to argonians, 'cept with lizards instead of cats, different 'evolution' triggers and they don't reach the 'human but not' stage as far as I'm aware
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:39 No.13523374
    So this CHIM is knowing you are part of some God. I get that. How does this relate to daedric gods? Is oblivion outside the whole dreaming god thing? If this is too stupid to answer, where can I find this info? Its interesting.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:39 No.13523378
    Everything is part of the dreaming god thing. The whole deal.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:42 No.13523406
    Its a god dreaming about roleplaying as someone roleplaying in a roleplaying video game.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:49 No.13523480
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    >morrowind thread
    >deep and complicated aspects like slavery
    game of all years
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:51 No.13523493
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    We need to regress the TES Franchise down another 6 dreamlevels, so we can get to Limbo!
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:51 No.13523500
    Man I'm mad I sold my xbox copy of Morrowind now. At least I could boot it up immediately and start playing. Now I have to hunt down a torrent then install a shit ton of mods :/
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:52 No.13523502
    Oh it's regressed alright.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:53 No.13523515
    They're not regressions: they're anti-creations, allowing TES to progress further towards the divine.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:55 No.13523534
    You don't need mods.

    Play it without mods, or console commands, all the way through.

    The awesome will make you cry.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:55 No.13523537
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    >doesn't have Morrowind GOTY legit
    >doesn't have a backup of favorite Morrowind mods just in case
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:55 No.13523538
    I already did that on the xbox ages ago though. I would kind of want something a little prettier if I'm going to go back.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:55 No.13523540
    Get me a game where bandits never wear daedric armor, where I dont need to micromanage everything I do to get x5 skills, and where the magic and alchemy systems dont break the game while at the same time continue being a blast.

    If those were addressed without a dozen mods next game then SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:57 No.13523554
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    Sedicious speech, citizen? Do you know what the penalty for that is?


    That's two more days than first degree murder!
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)20:57 No.13523556
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    Okay, back. If you still want I'll type up an essay on why Dagoth Ur was unique, but if interest has dwindled I won't bother because it's basically a massive clusterfuck of information and mind-fuckery.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:58 No.13523566
    Do want info on Ur
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:58 No.13523569
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:59 No.13523573
    By all means, throw a tl;dr. I actually like the lore.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:59 No.13523575
    Fucking do it or I will HAUNT YOU.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)20:59 No.13523579
    >> Dantalaeon !!2TQS185pmIh 01/14/11(Fri)20:59 No.13523580
    You all just realized that "fetcher" is just Dunmer for "furfag."
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:01 No.13523593
    >implying interest in Dagoth Ur will ever die
    >That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:02 No.13523609
    >And with strange eons even death may die.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:02 No.13523617
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    No fur here, serjo. None whatsoever.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:04 No.13523629
    On account that every other race uses it as well, you're wrong.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:04 No.13523631
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    A moment ago I made a potion which gave me 16k speed. Game crashed. GOTYAY
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:05 No.13523642
    Why hello there, Lifts-Her-Tail. I have a spear here that needs polishing.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:05 No.13523643
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:07 No.13523657
    The way I saw it was that the world that is thought of as the mortal one is just another daedric realm, with its respective god dead mad or sithis. Or more than one at once.

    But fuck if I know really.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)21:07 No.13523659
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    Right then. To understand Ur, first you need to know what the Dreamsleeve is. When mortals die, they go to the Dreamsleeve where their souls experience the afterlife they believed in and are purged of memories for the soul to be recycled in the next life, in some other form. The Dreamsleeve, to its name, is also the area where dreamers go when they sleep, meaning that all sleepers touch the afterlife when they dream.

    Second, you need to understand that Ur died. None of this "mortally wounded" bullshit; Ur was killed stone-dead. However, because of his connection with the Heart of the World, also known as the Heart of Lorkhan, he dreams of Reality. He is stuck outside the cycle of death and reincarnation, and when he sleeps in the Dreamsleeve he projects himself to the waking world. You'll notice that when Dagoth Ur dies, he leaves nothing behind. Even ghosts leave a bit of ectoplasm behind; not so with Dagoth Ur. He simply vanishes. That's because you're fighting a dead god's dreamself.

    But wait, there's more! To understand the Dreamsleeve even further, you need to understand the cosmology. Picture reality as a wheel. Nirn is the hub of the wheel, the Aedric Earthbones are the spokes, and the gaps between the spokes are the realms of Oblivion. The Dreamsleeve is a thread going right through the hub; it goes through the Mundus. When a person achieves CHIM, he leaves the Wheel and sees it on its side; he sees the O turn into an I when seen from a different perspective.

    But not Dagoth Ur. He is awake in the Dreamsleeve, and he does not see the I. He sees ∞. Instead of seeing himself as part of the ineffable godhead, he sees all creation as part of himself. He has achieved the exact opposite of CHIM, and works to supplant reality with his maddened dream, making all in his flesh and of his flesh.

    If he had won, there would be nothing but the solipsistic Dagoth Ur.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:08 No.13523667
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    The only romance in Morrowind was Ahnassi... I think we can infur a few things about the Nervarine's prefurences in that.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:09 No.13523672
    It still blows my mind that his Daedric axe actually took 60,000 points of damage and exploded after one swing. It must have been like getting hit by a supernova.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:10 No.13523679
    Wait what? Story please.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:12 No.13523701
    This shit is mentioned NOWHERE in any of the wikis or main sources.

    This seems to be very obscure/hidden stuff. I had no idea TES was this deep.

    Found a thread talking about it.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:12 No.13523707
    Its been a long time. Did Ur create that divine disease that made you an immortal mindless abomination unless you got really lucky and were a player character?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:13 No.13523711
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    Pic is the story.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)21:14 No.13523716

    It's never really spelled out, but you can piece it together from every source on Dagoth Ur in the main game itself and Vivec's Teachings on cosmology. The last bit is critical to the understanding of anti-CHIM, but you can piece together the "dead god dreaming" stuff just through the game itself.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:15 No.13523720
    >Why beast races are enslaved and noone does nothing to change that?

    Because beast races deserve no better?
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)21:15 No.13523728

    Wait, I take that back. You CAN piece it together just from information within the game itself, but you have to be able to parse the mysticism of the Sermons of Vivec. Vivec's Teachings are pretty much the Lessons, but simplified.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:15 No.13523729
    Mhm. It's like a hardcore easter egg in the plot I guess.

    I'm sort of sad that I didn't figure this out for myself and got it spoiled here. Never would have though.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:16 No.13523732
    >Mad Dream
    aka his point of view.

    So Reality in Tamriel is mutable more or less.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:17 No.13523742
    Tamriel isn't real. It is ALL the Dream of the Godhead.

    Not sure how Dagoth Ur could change that though. Maybe Alpharius can explain.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:18 No.13523751
    Can't really call it spoilering you wouldn't have ever figured it out, now can you?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:18 No.13523753
    So if it's all a Dream how does Lorkhan tricking Akatosh into being 'reality' work out?
    >> Iounnius Reballius 01/14/11(Fri)21:18 No.13523754
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    >Dunmer, dunmer, tellin' lies,
    >Blackened face, and blood-red eyes,
    >Gravel throat is what he has,
    >"We're watching you, scum" is what he says.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:19 No.13523763
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    So, when you are using sunder and keening you are 'un-anchoring' Dagoth Ur's Dreamline back into the mortal world?... from... the outside...

    Then, does that mean the Heart kind of unteathered from Mundis and ziplined back to wherever Dagoth is/was/existentialwhatisallthis?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:20 No.13523766
    There are demons from other planes of existence, magic that can things from nothing, gods that use mortals as playthings, and scrolls that contain all knowledge of everything ever. It's always been pretty obvious reality in this setting as rather mailable.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)21:20 No.13523772

    It's a bit tricky. If he had succeeded, he would be the only dreamer. The sole solipsistic entity within the Godhead's dream. The Godhead would dream of Dagoth Ur, and Dagoth Ur alone. What would have happened then? It's hard to say. It could have stayed that way for eternity, two dead gods dreaming of each other in infinite regression, or Dagoth Ur, being the sole thing on the Godhead's mind, could have ascended to become the new Godhead. But the better question is, is there a difference between the two? Dagoth Ur is the Godhead and the Godhead is Dagoth Ur, regardless of the technicalities.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:21 No.13523773
    The Elder Scrolls series: Way more complex than anyone ever realised
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:21 No.13523781
    Weird shit happens in dreams.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:22 No.13523788
    ITT Michael Kirkbride's writings.
    Don't think for a setting any of this was even thought about much less thought up by anyone else.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:23 No.13523791
    including the people currently responsible for it's continuation, unfortunately.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:24 No.13523795
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    God's blood, do I ever love the Elder Scrolls...
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)21:25 No.13523803

    Dagoth Ur was tied to the Heart, but the Heart may not have been tied to Dagoth Ur. The Heart of Lorkhan is the Heart of the World, and when you "destroyed" it, you woke Dagoth Ur up within the Dreamsleeve, ending his nightmare temporarily. Without the Heart in the physical world, he cannot affect the Mundus by dreaming. However, we don't really know what happened to the Heart. Most people seem to think that it was banished... somewhere, whether it be to Oblivion or Aetherius or the Dreamsleeve or somewhere else entirely.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:25 No.13523804
    More like:
    >Morrowind: deeper than Evangelion and the depths of space combined
    Contrasted with
    >Oblivion: kiddie pool
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:26 No.13523813
    I would kill to see more argonian and khajiit homelands and culture. They are some of the most unique characters in the game and it's a damn shame there's not more flavor around them.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:27 No.13523817
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    >including the people currently responsible for it's continuation, unfortunately.

    "To us here at Bethesda, fantasy is all about being a knight riding his horse and fighting monsters :V'
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:27 No.13523821
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    Well, there are a couple of write-ups for Knights of the Nine that expand upon the meta-fluff. So it's still there (and hopefully isn't being phased out for Skyrim)
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)21:28 No.13523826

    Well, if you wait until 2020 Tamriel Rebuilt will (probably) be finished and you can visit the very northernmost edge of Black Marsh. Alternatively, TES VI (released 2017) has a slim chance of being set in either Elsweyr or Black Marsh.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:28 No.13523830
    I always wanted that too, and pictured Black Marsh as being similar to Indochina. But now I get the feeling Bethesda would try to inject Medieval Europe into everything.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:29 No.13523835
    haha, that's p. much a quote right there. Fallout 3, right?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:29 No.13523838
    Kirkbride wrote some stuff for Oblivion as a contractor. Notably Mankar Camoran's speech and the Mysterium Xarxes.
    I've heard people claim he wrote for Shivering Isles and Knights of the Nine as well but i'm not so sure.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:32 No.13523864
    I want a game set in Akavir.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:32 No.13523867
    Not to mention the insistence there is only a single subspecies of argonian/khajiit will make things rather odd when you walk into their respective homelands. Since it'd probably be too difficult for bethsoft to figure out not every (sapient) subspecies has to be playable.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:34 No.13523880
    Personally when it's comes to fluff I like to hear about Lorkhan the most, he's strangely consistant amongst each races myth and legends compared to the various other aedra and daedra.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:35 No.13523886
    This mod sounds interesting. What is it and how/where can I get it?
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)21:35 No.13523895

    Him and Akatosh/Alduin. Those two alone appear in every mortal mythology, although their roles differ depending on whether they like the world as it is or hate it.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)21:37 No.13523916
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    Just search for "Building Up Uvirith's Grave". It allows you to transform the Tower of Tel Uvirith into a fairly thriving town.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:37 No.13523925
    Not to mention the uncanny valley they have on every face they've ever made.

    Though it still would be cool, in a perfect world, there would be a dozen subspecies kinds of both races just wandering around in their cities. I wonder if the less humanoid ones can talk..

    Suddenly, the tiger mount you've used is revealed to be a political agent sent to keep tabs on you for their government!

    Yeah.. I havent slept much recently.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:41 No.13523956
    >I wonder if the less humanoid ones can talk..
    Quadruped khajiit can't talk, but they can understand human language. Hilariously enough the most magically capable khajiit-race is pretty much an awakened housecat.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)21:42 No.13523971

    ...maybe. As in all things Elder Scrolls, there's always room for bias and clerical error. But, yeah, I like to believe that the housecats are the most powerful wizards too.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:48 No.13524023
    Okay, I looked it up, but it seems to be incompatible with Uvirith's Legacy, which I currently have installed. Is there a way around that?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:50 No.13524032
    wasn't there a mod that was basically both in one?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:52 No.13524056
    Found it.
    Building up Uruvith's legacy. (how cleverly named)
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:56 No.13524102
    Awesome. So this mod is actually two mods in one installation, or is it a patch-mod to let you use the other two together.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)21:59 No.13524135
    It's stand alone, according to the description.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:03 No.13524183
    Ah, okay, except it does talk about downloading and running both this mod and the standard Uvirith's Legacy mod at the same time.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:05 No.13524217
    what would happen if the godhead attained a sense of individuality?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:06 No.13524231
    Something to do with stuff from the original not being in this one.
    It's probably better not to run em together unless you consider said content absolutely unmissable.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:10 No.13524281
    Wouldn't you playing the games be a good representation of that?
    I mean, unless you stay absolutely in character, you're pretty much the godhead assuming direct control over the champion/nerevarine/whosoever.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:15 No.13524326

    BUUL doesn't alter the interior of the tower in any way, apparently, in order to make it compatible with other interior mods. I'm not sure if that means the interior is left as vanilla Morrowind has it or not, though.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:16 No.13524335
    >>assuming direct control

    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:16 No.13524336
    but every character you play as hasn't reached CHIM
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:17 No.13524347
    So they're unaware.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)22:20 No.13524368
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    This thread.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:20 No.13524370
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    No, the Argonians and such invaded after the Oblivion Crisis ended. The dunmer and the Tribunal in particular have done a lot to piss off the daedra over the years (if you did the temple quest line you'll know what I mean). They got raped during the Oblivion Crisis, and the denizens of the Black Marsh went in for sloppy seconds, riding a wave of anger that burned and festered and grew under centuries of exploitation and oppression. Much blood was spilled on both sides of the borders, mostly that of dunmer and traitor Argonians who sold their kin into slavery.

    Now that they're all displaced and space genocided they'll be the bitter, black-skinned Jew-analogues of Tamriel, pissed off about everything and nothing in particular, possessed of a strong will and brutally efficient fighting tactics.

    Probably make good unarmed fighters.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:21 No.13524376
    so it's just a conscious dreamer dreaming of an unconscious one. The more I think about this, the more I think the hero of daggerfall has a good chance of still being around with CHIM
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:21 No.13524379
    Sauce, please?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:21 No.13524382
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:22 No.13524386
    Probably xLovers. It can be found over at hongfire or just googling it.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)22:24 No.13524411

    The Dunmer were already Jew-analogues. Led by the prophet Veloth to flee persecution to a promised land, awaiting a promised Messiah destined to restore the rules by which society is lived and expel the foreign invaders, a cadre of priests bent on suppressing all rumors of the Messiah, and so forth...

    The Nerevarine is basically angry, violent Jesus to the Temple's Jewish Elders and Uriel's Caesar.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)22:25 No.13524418

    Except that he was squished by Numidium.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:27 No.13524440
    Nothing the good ol' king'o'worms can't fix.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:29 No.13524456
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    Yeah... about that, see....
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:30 No.13524469
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    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:31 No.13524483
    oh yeah. Forgot he caught a rather bad case of faggotry.
    He'll.. get over it eventually.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:31 No.13524485
    This is the same person that caused a dragon break, being six places at the same time, dying and living at the same time, and all other kinds of weridness, starting to sound like CHIM
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)22:36 No.13524524

    Although really, who knows? As a Main Character™, he possesses CHIM in the gamist sense by default. It's considered somewhat bad form to point that out, though.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:43 No.13524584
    So have normal TES Gods obtained CHIM? What about daedric princes? Are these guys ONE WITH THE UNIVERSE or are they just really strawng?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:44 No.13524595

    Would have been so bad if Traven hadn't got such a hard on for fucking over the mages guild in every way he could, and the plot writer saying necromancers are bad and giving no justification for it. Then being unable to do anything to start repairing the damage Traven did once taking his place.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:46 No.13524602
    I hadn't realized that one needed to justify the idea that guys who STEAL PEOPLE'S SOULS are evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:47 No.13524616
    Daedric princes have hints going both ways.
    Could be they're very powerfull outsiders.
    Could be they're still part of the godhead despite that.

    Pretty sure gods are just a very powerfull part of the godhead.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:49 No.13524627
    god damn, I thought good lore was making a cohesive story without retcons everywhere. this shit is awesome
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:49 No.13524633
    Before Oblivion necromancers could just be guys who are interested in life and death, like the biologists of TES. No longer. now they are bad bad bad and that's that.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:50 No.13524645
    and stealing daedric and animal souls to make your sword magical is any better?
    Still souls, and still thinking beings in the deadrea's case.
    Always seemed to me more fear of it being turned on the humanoid races more then any innate evil.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:53 No.13524663
    In the daedra's case, you could be doing them a favor, though.
    Being locked in a gem and later magical device means they won't be going back to oblivion.
    And for some reason daedra are absolutely terrified of going back to oblivion.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)22:55 No.13524674

    Traven was pretty much the villain of that questline. He went against Galerion the Mystic's founding ideals of the Guild by restricting access to knowledge to a select few, encouraged regional specialization, used his private army to ban an area of magic he personally found offensive despite it's long-standing legality and tradition in Cyrodiil and the wider world, and was generally an idiotic douche.

    No. None of the Aedra nor any of the Daedra have achieved CHIM. Thus far only mortals have accomplished it. It could be that the gods are less likely to achieve CHIM because they're already invested of so much power and personality.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)22:56 No.13524686
    Then what, theoretically, do you think would happen if a God or Prince achieved Chim? Does reality break down, since they're so strongly connected to it?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:00 No.13524725
    I don't think the increase of power would be as large as it would for a mortal.
    Though they could possibly just become the head of their respective panteon.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:03 No.13524760

    I don't know. If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say that little would actually change. The idea behind CHIM is that they're basically the same entity except with Omniscience and Omnipotence, but since there are a non-zero number of entities with CHIM any drastic change detrimental to another entity would just be undone. But I don't know that. A mortal with CHIM is exactly as powerful as, say, a theoretical Akatosh with CHIM. Since they both have the same suite of powers, neither of them is any more powerful than the other. Besides, even if a Daedric or Aedric entity were to die, or if the newfound royalty conflicted with their metaphysical roles, some mortal or daedric entity would step into the gap. You see that sort of thing with Sheogorath. It's implied that the events of the Shivering Isles have happened before, and that a mortal can mantle an Aedric or Daedric being and combine with them/take over their portfolios. If you really want to get a better answer, or solicit more opinions, you'll need to go to one of the lore fora.

    I'm really just scratching the surface, here.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:03 No.13524766
    I dont think it would make a difference. CHIM is godmode, whether or not you were a demigod or a peasant beforehand. It still presents the same dangers too.

    From this thread Ur sounds like a writer's ubersue lovechild. (I am outside life and death, I will subsume all reality rather than disappearing and being absorbed like everything else.)
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:04 No.13524772
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    How much info is there on Dunmer saints?
    Ever since I saw this image, I've been wanting to learn more about them, particularly 58.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:04 No.13524783

    Not really. Vivec is more the Ubersue lovechild, while Ur is the Lovecraftian horror lurking in your Dreams.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:08 No.13524827
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    You can find some info on them in the in-game book "Lives of the Saints", and high-ranking Temple members and Savants will talk to you about the topics "Greater Saints" and "Lesser Saints", giving you a bit of information on each one. I believe that Tamriel Rebuilt is currently expanding upon the Saints, giving them each a fictional biography, but it would be considered non-conflicting non-canon at best.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:13 No.13524880
    Huh? I was under the impression that the shivering isles was something new and unique. Mortals and daedric gods are as different as apples and oranges. The old madgod says point blank he doesn't know what to make of you, and he's been around in one form or another since the beginning of creation.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:14 No.13524894
    I like to think that that faggy high-elf was not the true King of Worms, but just a powerful (in lore sense) necromancer who found the staff and took on the mantel.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:16 No.13524916

    Who was Arden-Sul? No one seems to know. The Heretics and the Zealots all have different answers, as does the Madgod himself and each of his different courts. Besides, why would you trust the words of the Prince of Madness? Even if he doesn't lie, how does he know what he knows isn't tinted by the lens of his insanity? There are so many conflicting sources within the Shivering Isles that it would be unwise to take everything Sheogorath says as truth point-blank.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:24 No.13525005
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    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:32 No.13525059
    I dont trust the words of the prince of madness. I trust the words of the prince of order who was standing in front of the hero at the end. He said something to the line of "what of you? God? Mortal? I know not"

    It really didnt strike me as the sort of thing he would have any motivation to lie about. As being the dfaedric prince of order, well, he's not a great guy but he has the least reason of all to lie of all.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:33 No.13525075
    I hate the fact the Steam version rejects mods.

    Means I have to find a safe working torrent.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:34 No.13525081
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    Vehk is more of the Trickster Archetype.

    He's a silver tongued bastard who simply won't die no matter what. Cons within cons.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:36 No.13525095

    The Cursed Prince of Order who was, until very recently, the Prince of Madness, and well known for forgetfulness. We know that, as the Greymarch approached, Sheogorath became more like Jygallag. While I'm not saying it necessarily has to be so, it may be that Jygallag still had aspects of Sheogorath even after his change. The god in both his aspects is an unreliable narrator of the highest extent, one who knows little, says much, and lies frequently.

    Granted, it could be that everything proceeded just as Jygallag said, but where's the fun in that?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:36 No.13525097
    I never found the alleged hints that the cycle had a cycle of "Cycle Breaking."
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:37 No.13525101
    I think we can at least agree that Shivering Isles was really cool.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:38 No.13525112

    Pretty much, yeah. Now, I haven't had as much time to pore over the Shivering Isles like I have Morrowind, but it was still a lot of fun and I feel like there's a lot of meat there that I haven't quite figured out yet.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:40 No.13525121
    It gave me some hope for Skyrim, at least.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:45 No.13525159

    My feelings on Skyrim are mixed. I saw a lot of stuff that looked pretty neat, some stuff that looked not so neat, and a few blatant lies thrown in for good measure. Also, calling it now:

    Ice Wraiths are gonna be the new Cliff Racers.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:45 No.13525160
    So let me see if I understand Dagoth Ur.

    He died, but because he was tied to Lorkhan's Heart, he was still technically *of* the World, despite also dreaming in the Dreamsleeve. Because he was OF the world, then, he dreamt of reality but because he is also OF the Dreamsleeve, he is able to percieve all of Mundus as well...and he tries to super-impose his dreams of "reality" upon Tamriel itself?
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:46 No.13525171

    That's pretty much it in a nutshell, yes.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:48 No.13525183
    >Ice Wraiths are gonna be the new Cliff Racers.

    Imagine they have the same screetch as the skeleton from daggerfall.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:48 No.13525185
    this thread makes me so depressed for skyrim :(
    I know it's going to be beowulf: the movie: the game, but it can never live up to the complexity of morrowind
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:49 No.13525192
    Awesome! *pats self on back*
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:50 No.13525195

    It might. There's a lot of potential stuff for Bethesda to explore, like Man/Mer relationships, the nature of Nordic theology, thu'um (confirmed in the game but called Dragonshouts in the article), and the more earthly concerns of imminent civil war between multiple Nordic factions. They have a lot of threads to pursue in Skyrim. The question only remains as to whether they'll pick up those threads.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:50 No.13525198
    holy shit, I just remembered
    Hrothgar was the king in beowulf
    god damn it
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:51 No.13525208
    simply from
    >dragons have been locked away for thousands of years
    I assume they're ignoring the lore entirely
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:51 No.13525213
    Dwemer ruins seems to be confirmed for a comeback. (which might fit, the original mythology being nordic and all)
    It was mentioned in one of the Game Informer things and now one of those automatons was shown in the sound videos.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:52 No.13525216

    Bethesda pinches names shamelessly. I don't think that Hrothgar was a particularly uncommon name, though.
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:54 No.13525237

    Well, I see two possibilities. One, they're ignoring the old lore entirely. Two, they're deliberately simplifying it for newcomers in the article to hype up the game without an unpalatable infodump for today's gamer on the go. Personally, I hope that the lore is all there, safely contained within the in-game books, ready to be picked up by those who want it and ignored by those who don't. That way everyone wins.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:54 No.13525239
    I don't know, I can see a lot of skyrim taking aspects directly from beowulf
    dragons, warrior kings, constant wars between nations, snow... other stuff
    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:55 No.13525243
    Skyrim is supposed to be 200 years after Oblivion, right?

    >> Anonymous 01/14/11(Fri)23:56 No.13525253
    It was just the way they phrased it
    "the lore is CLEAR that dragons were banished"
    it sounds to me like they wouldn't make that leap without being supplied with that info
    >> Alpharius 01/14/11(Fri)23:57 No.13525261
    That seems likely, yes, especially given that the few Dunmer survivors apparently settled in Solstheim.

    Hey, there are worse things to rip shamelessly from.
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)00:00 No.13525284

    I will admit that the phrasing worries me somewhat, especially because we know damn well that the dragons were never banished, but for now I'm just chalking that up to "banishment" being a more exciting word than "wandered off". It makes their return seem more portentous and awesome to the person who just doesn't have the time to sift through obscure in-game texts and developer posts. Only time will tell, though.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:01 No.13525300
    the deeper aspects of beowulf are easily glossed over
    like the entire point of the story was the death of the warrior king, being replaced by diplomacy and bla bla
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:02 No.13525309
    TES lore buffs are grossly outnumbered these days, so I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped it all together
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:05 No.13525324
    At the very least they'll just copy/paste a bunch of books from the previous games. Right?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:07 No.13525344
    no, all the books will give you skills, but they won't have any text
    they will just be [this book describes the proper shield wielding technique] +1 block wielding
    just kidding, there is no block skill
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)00:10 No.13525363

    The thing is, stuff being made available to lore-buffs doesn't impair the enjoyment of a more casual gamer at all. If you didn't know any of that Dagoth Ur stuff before this evening, for instance, do you feel that your enjoyment prior was significantly impaired because of your lack of understanding? Of course not! It shouldn't be too hard to create enough stuff to placate the nerds while allowing a fairly accessible, enjoyable game on the surface. Unlike a few other hardcore TES fans, I don't really begrudge the casual fanbase. They want to have fun, same as me, and we have fun different ways. Morrowind and, later, Knights of the Nine and the Shivering Isles both allowed us to have our fun without pissing on the other faction. A lot of people have talked about Oblivion being "dumbed down" for the console crowd, but I don't think that was an act of deliberate dumbing down. Rather, I think it was a mixture of laziness in the writing department and a certain unfortunate love of the Lord of the Rings movies that led them astray, rather than any particular calculation to make the series more appealing to new players at the expense of the old.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:16 No.13525413
    but why hire a guy like MK to make an intricate story if barely anyone will understand it?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:19 No.13525440
    well, the lord of rings trilogy was coming out during the development of oblivion, so that probably did it
    what movies are coming out now?
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)00:20 No.13525444

    I dunno, professional pride? I know that people keep buying Morrowind today just because of the word-of-mouth hype its received for its depth and environment, so it's not like a complex story is a detriment. It might be a bit expensive, but it has to be a lot cheaper than hiring Patrick Stewart to voice like ten lines and you'll get more mileage out of a good story than you will out of Patrick Stewart.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:23 No.13525476
    I don't think marketing would let them do it
    people don't want stories
    why do you think avatar did so well?
    from the screens I've seen, they won't be using graphics as a selling point, which is good, but I think they might be overdoing the fighting
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:26 No.13525497

    To be fair, thanks the the whole Warp in the West thing Manimarco is dead, a faggy high elf, and a black moon necromancers pray to as a god.

    All at the same time.
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)00:26 No.13525501

    I disagree. While a good story isn't mandatory for the enjoyment of a video-game, it certainly enhances it, and I think that Bethesda can do a good job with it's background lore, especially because of the Shivering Isles. I remain cautiously optimistic, therefore. It might suck, but odds are it won't.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:29 No.13525527
    I see what you mean, and the new interviews with todd howard make me really want to believe everything that comes out of his mouth, but the key word is "can".
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:32 No.13525558
    Anyone have a link to the "must-have" morrowind mods?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:34 No.13525580
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:34 No.13525584
    better bodies
    better clothes

    everything else is just customization:
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:41 No.13525637
    What's this about Vvardenfell being destroyed? And daedra swarm and red mountain exploding? Invasion? Bah! That seems so inconsistent with the de facto rules of storytelling and the TES universe. It feels like Bethesda was giving a "fuck you" to everyone who hated on oblivion for its shallowness, citing morrowind (and daggerfall, for that matter), as the example better games. It was their way of saying, "yeah, you like that dingy island? Here's what we think of your dingy island."
    Maybe I'm just too cynical, but what can we expect for Skyrim? I want to be optimistic, but unless Kirkbride takes a lead role in the writing, I think we can expect a "Lord of the Rings: Scandinavia."
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:44 No.13525669
    I don't know, I think they just wanted a fresh start
    they wanted to remove all previous politcal forces from the world
    so no more great houses
    no more septim empire
    and soon the social order of skyrim will be destroyed

    then nothing will be left
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:49 No.13525723
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    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)00:58 No.13525808
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    I dunno, I'm still holding out hope for "Bloodmoon, but Shiny".
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)01:05 No.13525892
    I just really hope that there is some Telvanni love in Skyrim, at least a few Tel-XXXX towers and mages making an attempt to get shit back in gear.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)01:08 No.13525911
    Wait Wait, What did Nerevarine do to cause the Oblivion Crisis?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)01:13 No.13525955
    there's supposed to be a huge population of scholars from morrowind in eastern skyrim
    at least, there was before they invaded
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)01:13 No.13525956
    Landfall was foreshadowed in Morrowind and possibly before. They've been promising to kill Morrowind for a while.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)01:16 No.13525981
    there are so many things that they have planned out
    fuck, I bet there is a secret vault in the bethesda headquarters with a dozen or so scrolls that lay out the entire story from beginning to end
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)01:17 No.13525988

    Basically by destroying the heart you started waggling you fingers into the creases of an already threadbare reality.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)01:49 No.13526196
    Could it be possible that a daedric or aedric entity would try to avoid CHIM because though they have their own identities they also have identities in the hearts and minds of all those who worship them, thus if they achieved CHIM they might be either ripped asunder or lose control over themselves because they are being controlled by the group mentality?

    Either that or is it possible that because they are a fundamental part of the sleeping-god's mind they can't achieve CHIM because they are actually separate ideas with set paths rather than 'mortals' that don't have a set path or pantheon in that regards?

    Also is it possible that the sleeping-god in question is lorkhan, hence the reason why his heart survived, and because of this the aedric and daedric entities are unable to gain CHIM since they are their own entities and not connected to him on that level?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)01:59 No.13526276
    The thing that gives me hope was that they described dragons as being different from the usual dragons of myth.
    The exact quote as well as I can remember it is "In myth you had these huge awesome dragons breathing fire, Skyrim has that, but instead of the dragon breathing fire he is speaking this ancient dragon language that creates the fire or ice, he is speaking a language that creates these effects rather than having fire breath."

    Also if I remember correctly, the dragons went low key and started serving mankind when the empress made the bond with akatosh, and since then dragons have basically vanished because no new dragons were born and the existing dragons became so old and powerful they could walk amongst the citizens of the empire under human guise.

    Now that the imperial bloodline is kaput, the dragons are having a 200 year long orgy, making new baby dragons and shit.

    The thing that scares me is that they will become the new bandits, but from what I have seen they are trying to make it feel more epic and less common. I like the idea of every now and then seeing a dragon flying in the sky and going "Hmmm, I COULD track that dragon down by following it, and perhaps either kill it or persuade it..." but who knows what they will actually do.

    I am just happy that A: we can control what we do with each hand and B: we can now use magical staffs as light sources to see in caves.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)02:22 No.13526474
    I'm worried that the new "two hands" approach for spellcasting is going to wind up costing the game custom spellmaking.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)02:26 No.13526504
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    >there are so many things that they have planned out
    fuck, I bet there is a secret vault in the bethesda headquarters with a dozen or so scrolls that lay out the entire story from beginning to end

    >dozen or so scrolls that lay out the entire story from beginning to end
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)02:26 No.13526508
    I doubt that, the game has always had custom spell making, though I wonder if they will add combo options to spell making?

    Like if you cast one fire spell with a cold spell it will create a cone of steam, where if you cast a different fire spell with the same cold spell it would instead cause some kind of explosion?

    Also I wonder how the Thu'um will work? they said they have 20 different powers that you use dragon souls to power, does that mean there are 20 different powers that you use a soul for each, or 20 different powers with levels so you can enhance a power you already have?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)02:34 No.13526561
    >the game has always had custom spell making

    Yeah, it also always had goddamn Mysticism till now, too.

    Fucking "Mysticism college of magic is lolredundant" bullshit. I guess they're just fucking finishing the job of killing it they started in Oblivion when they gutted out teleportation and neutered telekinesis into a fucking glorified house decorating tool.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)02:37 No.13526592
    You are complaining about telekinesis and removed teleporting, but aren't mentioning how much the game was lessened by removing levitate?

    I mean god, how many times did you find something special or hidden on a high up ledge you thought "I will just go up there to rest away from mobs, no way in hell there is anything up there" only to BAMP! have an enemy and a chest just sitting there staring at your slowly floating pimp-self.

    Teleportation is made redundant by the fast travel system, telekinesis was nice, but was mainly used to do things like steal out of the line of sight of NPCs, which is more of a game system cheat than an actual aspect of the game.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)02:54 No.13526705
    Don't get me wrong, taking out levitate was a pisstake (though lessened, somewhat, by the considerably more claustrophobic Shrinky-Dink's brand Dungeons in Oblivion), but I was focusing my bile on Skyrim's excising Mysticism. (Levitate is Alteration).

    Telekinesis was used for what magic uses everything for: doing the same things as the other classes, only better.

    You could steal with it, pickpocket with it, it could spring trapped doors and chests from safety. Of course, the latter is rendered moot by the lack of actual traps now in favour of havok physics toys.

    I do agree, though, that the teleportation wasn't as necessary in Oblivion as it was in Morowind (especially Divine/Almsivi Interventions), but kicking out Mark and Recall was a terrible idea in my opinion.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)02:57 No.13526724
    yeah, the thing is I suppose they are going to either combine those spells into a different section or perhaps have them just be basic magic that you don't need to skill up?

    Also I am personally hoping that necromancy comes back, and that is where soultrap goes to.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)03:05 No.13526796
    I mean, you can theoretically put them in other colleges of magic (Dispel And Spell Absorption/Reflection would go in Restoration, Telekinesis and Soul Trap in Alteration, Detect Life in Illusion) it just feels weird to say that an entire branch of knowledge that's existed since Arena, has has numberious written in-game texts and stories told about simply never existed.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)03:39 No.13527072
    The two handed casting thing does kind of worry me... one the few good changes in Oblivion (besides archery) was being able to swing a sword, block with a shield and cast a spell all without any hotkey juggling or attack mode switching.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)03:51 No.13527211
    why would it worry you though?

    Also they give an example that says you can quick change your gear, their example was you shield bash one guy then 'drop' it so you can cast with that hand, all the while using a sword to fight off the rest of your attackers.

    Honestly not too many people used shields for what they were intended for, they were just ways to get a higher def. I would rather have staffs and weapons that give you a bonus to parrying honestly.

    Imagine a staff that causes shock damage whenever you block a hit with it, causes light to flow out when you are in a cave(read: acts like a torch) and lets you cast spells better than just using your hand.
    As for skyrim, No matter how bad they screw it up, that teaser song is fucking amazing.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)08:04 No.13528814
    >with all sorts of crazy Dunmer quirks dialled up to eleven, with extra magic spaceships.

    ...al I wanted was my own flying ship, but that's even better.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)08:28 No.13528994
    Alright, read through the ENTIRE thread now, damn it was long, and deleted the first post I made.

    What I like to know is about the Mer. Why does the Altmer hate Lorkhan and Nirn? From what I've gathered, it's because they feel Lorkhan robbed them of their place in the spirit realm... But humans did not exist there. So what is it exactly that puts Men and Mer apart on a fundamental level? Or is part of CHIM realizing that there really IS nothing that puts them together, and that it's just a matter of cultural points of view?
    If this is so, then is the hole Altmer "fuck you Lorkhan" attitude built on knowledge of the Godhead or is it again a matter of cultural distortions of the truth, which I assume the first Altmer to enter Nirn were aware of? And if so, musn't these "firsts" of all races have all had CHIM, or... help me out here.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)09:25 No.13529373
    I think the verdict is that they NEARLY achieved chim but failed to retain their sense of self identity so they were absorbed so to speak by the godhead.
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)10:04 No.13529629

    The Altmer are descended from the Aldmer, or the progenitor elven race. They don't really have any special knowledge of CHIM or of the Godhead, and their attitudes towards Lorkhan are more cultural and mythic. They believe that the act of creating Mundus bound the Aedra and weakened their ancestors, and they believe that, by weakening or unmaking the world, they can return the Mundus to its primal state before the laws that govern reality were set. Prior to the current era, there was a lot of bad blood over this fact, with men and elves trying to basically wipe each other out back and forth. The Elves wanted to wipe out the men because the bloodline of Man itself exists as a metaphysical anchor holding the world together, something the hardcore Altmer wish to undo, while the Men wanted to kill all the elves because of constant attacks, slavery, and attempted genocide.

    Now, there are two factions that are sort of built around understanding the Godhead, although their members Zero-Sum more often than not. The High Elves have the Psijic Order, dedicated to understanding the Psijic Endeavor, and it's built around the school of Mysticism and using it to unravel the secrets of reality and ascend. Even though they were Dunmer, both Divayth Fyr and Sotha Sil were members of the Psijic Order. Even though they're primarily High Elves, they don't really get along with or agree with mainstream High Elf society, being a group of mystic advisers to ruling kings. The other faction is solidly Imperial, the Moth Priests. They use Mysticism and the knowledge of the Elder Scrolls to both aid the Empire and attempt ascension, although they Zero-Sum quite frequently when they come to the true understanding of the universe.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)10:27 No.13529781
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    "This is where you get off. Come with me."
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)10:36 No.13529844
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    You know what I'd love to see in Skyrim? No more scaled enemies, or at least a much better functioning system.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)11:49 No.13530420
    So what exactly were the Aldmeri before the Mundus was created? Some form of non-divine spirits? Or does "divinity" as a concept become meaningless from the "ancestral" point of view, like the ancestor-worshipping Ashlanders, who call even the Deadra Princes "ancestors"? I seem to recall that this is why they oppose the Tribunal, since they aren't true ancestors but rather dirty usurpers. True? And what is their issue with the Nine Divines? If Daedra are ancestors then surely the Divines must be, or at least Akatosh?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)11:56 No.13530475
    They were something along the lines of aedra.
    Nine divines are pretty much as is, though.
    Gods or mortals who became/were revered as gods. I mean one of the nine is a previous emperor, Talos I believe.

    And I don't think daedra were ever considered ancestors of any sort, though they had some major influence over the ancestral development of the dunmer and as a result were regarded as gods rather than archdemons.
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)11:59 No.13530495
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    The Aldmer were descended from the Old Ehlnofey, a progenitor race they hold were descended from the weaken Aedra. When the Aedra created the Mundus, they bound themselves into the Earthbones to stabilize the world, not realizing that it would cause them to weaken greatly or perhaps even die. Each regression from the Divine further weakens their godly potential, or so the Altmer claim. The Dunmer are not descended from the Daedra, except in the metaphorical sense. When Boethiah ate Trinimac, he used Trinimac's voice to trick the prophet Veloth and his followers into worship of the Daedra, and so they fled the Aldmeri dominion to worship their new gods in peace. The Daedra were not involved in the creation of the world and are ancestors to none of the mortal races.

    I couldn't find the pre-made one, so I whipped up a crappy family tree describing the origin of the various races.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:11 No.13530585
    So Deadra being regarded as ancestors is basically just an old mistake or misunderstanding on the part of those who practice ancestor worship?
    And where does the Ayleid fit in that tree? Does this have something to do with how Aldmeri was remade into Tamriel? Or is that theory incorrect?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:11 No.13530591
    There's no objective difference between ANYONE. That's part of what achieving CHIM is all about. You realize that everyone and everything is part of a dead/dreaming Godhead's...dream.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:14 No.13530609
    Yes but, there is still a somewhat canon timeline, and with somewhat clear causes and effects, distorted as they may be.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:15 No.13530619
    Well yeah, of course. I'm just saying that's part of what achieving CHIM is about. To everyone who hasn't achieved it, all the percieved differences, cultural or otherwise, are so important that they may as well be real to them.
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)12:17 No.13530626
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    Have an improved family tree. Yes, the notion that the Daedra are the ancestors of the Ashlanders is a mistaken one. Also, the Aldmer weren't remade into Tamriel, but their ancestors the Aedra were.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:17 No.13530630
    They're either just aldmer under a different name, something inbetween aldmer and altmer or 'made up just for oblivion so who gives a damn' .
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:19 No.13530646
    Wait, what are the Ehlnofay?
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)12:19 No.13530648

    Not really. They're their own subset who carved out a separate Empire within the jungled heartland of Cyrodiil, and enslaved the Nordic/Nedic colonists already living there. They were also called the Wild Elves, and were pretty important within the backstory of the Empire.
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)12:20 No.13530657

    Progenitor race. They don't exist anymore because they were transformed into the two branches of mortals, the men and the mer.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:22 No.13530666
    No, the Ayleids are clearly mentioned in the book "The Wild Elves" in Morrowind. And they are refered to in several other books as well. They were for example the tyrants that Saint Alessia fought against during the slave rebellions, yes/no?

    So this "land" the Altmer claim to hail from is in fact the pre-Mundus dream of the Godhead, where they were still (I know I know, CHIM sort of negates all this) spirits and not corporeal? Oor am I wrong again?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:24 No.13530680
    Shit guys I just achieved CHIM aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:25 No.13530688
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    After viewing these, I'm actually kinda hopeful...

    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)12:27 No.13530702

    For the most part, you can sort of ignore the CHIM/Godhead thing when discussing most aspects of the lore not directly related to them. The Aldmer claim to have come originally from a southern continent/city before they moved north from there, settling most of the world, but that also gets confused with myths and remembrances of the pre-Mundus Mythic Dawn Era of Tamriel. Remember, what we know is mostly filtered through the confused myths of the elves, so we don't really know a whole lot more than they do.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:33 No.13530739
    Hm, well, let's try, then? I for one can't help but think that their lost continent is a metaphore for their pre-Mundus existence. But wait, if they, according to tradition, left there because of some calamity, then it doesn't fit with their loathing of Lorkhan. Unless the creation of the Mundus in turn triggered something which forced them to leave their previous non-corporeal existance and settle on the new Mundus in order to not be destroyed...?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:36 No.13530760
    Missing the proper evolution of the man races though. And I don't even fucking know how the Akaviri races are counted. Logically, they'd be descended from the Elnohfey as the Tamrielic ones, since they sure as hell aren't Hist.
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)12:37 No.13530767

    The creation of Mundus WAS the Calamity. They hate Lorkhan because he actually created the world, and the Altmer hate living in the world, bound to corporeal flesh and not transcendent, insubstantial thought. What do you think the Dwemer were doing? They were trying to unmake reality to return to the Gray Maybe. What was the Mythic Dawn doing? If you sifted through Mankar Camoran's rants and waded through his text, he was orchestrating the destruction of the Mundus to return to the first brush of creation, before Lorkhan's meddling.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:37 No.13530776
    A centurion sphere? I guess that pretty much kills the fear that the Dwemer might not be in.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:38 No.13530780
    So do all Altmer feel that way, or is it more of a cultural/philosophical thing for them?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:38 No.13530781
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    When I saw the Dwemer Sphere Centurion, and heard the transformation sound, I knew that I wanted this game more than any other.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:41 No.13530804
    Annotated Anuad

    Over many years, the Ehlnofey of Tamriel became the Mer (Elves):
    The Dwemer (the Deep Ones, sometimes called Dwarves)
    The Chimer (the Changed Ones, who later became the Dunmer)
    The Dunmer (the Dark or Cursed Ones, the Dark Elves)
    The Bosmer (the Green or Forest Ones, the Wood Elves)
    The Altmer (The Elder or High Ones, the High Elves).

    On the other continents, the Wandering Ehlnofey became the Men: the Nords of Atmora, the Redguards of Yokuda, and the Tsaesci of Akavir.

    >the Men
    >Tsaesci of Akavir.

    That's right, men. No the faggy snake Yuan-ti clones everyone seems to want.
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)12:43 No.13530819
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    Here you go. If it isn't clear, the Bretons are a crossbreed between Nord settlers in High Rock and Altmer.

    These days that's more of an extremist viewpoint among the High Elves. While, traditionally, that's what they've believed, many of them have grown attached to the Mundus and don't want to destroy it. You'll note that Ocato, a High Elf, was just as against the Daedric Invasion as anyone was. Primarily it's a philosophical strand running through High Elf society rather than something the race as a whole embraces.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:45 No.13530826
    So this southern continent may or may not be a metaphor. Maybe it was an actual continent or maybe it was the pre-Mundus existence. If it was an actual continent then... I don't know. If it is a metaphor, then the part where they "fled" from a calamity is a historical distortion of Lorkhan's trickery?
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)12:45 No.13530829

    That doesn't mean a whole lot, in terms of appearance. The Khajiit are technically elves and the Argonians are basically walking tree-things, but they sure as hell don't look like elves or trees, respectively.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:46 No.13530837
    I don't think that the Argonians are actually plants. I think they're symbiotic life-forms to the Hist though.
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)12:47 No.13530843

    Exactly. In the Elder Scrolls, descent doesn't necessarily equate to similarity.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:49 No.13530853
    Tree-things, not trees. The Hist looks like trees but they most definitely are not actual trees.
    Or is it that actual trees are decidedly not Hist? I mean, the Hist predates most everything that came into existence on the Mundus without first existing in the Mythic Dawn era.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:51 No.13530868
    I think I read somewhere that the Aragonians are mindless lizards until they lick the Hist tree.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:54 No.13530895
    To be fair, the ohmes khajiit look like bosmer.
    So much so they use perma facepaint to not be mistaken for one.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:55 No.13530903
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    >implying Argonians are ever anything but mindless
    Filthy s'wit.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:56 No.13530909
    If that was true, then how could Argonian populations exist outside of the Black Marsh?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:57 No.13530915
    "In the end it's just iteration upon iteration upon iteration, untill we run out of time. And the game ships"
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:57 No.13530923
    Pilgrimage back to blackmarsh when eggs are almost ready to hatch?
    Or that the hist with you, that's what the blackwood company did.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)12:59 No.13530934
    I hope that by this he means that any game at any part of development cycle could be polished more, but you kind of need to know when to stop.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:04 No.13530968
    But if the Khajiit are really descendants of the Bosmer, then what about their housecat wizards? They have an affinity just because the two separate races are similar in appearance and disposition?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:07 No.13530986
    I'm not sure about the whole bosmer descent thing. Especially since bosmer and khajiit seem to hate each others gut.

    But khajiit are rather magical in nature anyway, what with the phases of the two moons determining how they'll end up looking.
    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)13:07 No.13530991

    They're more like magical descendants. Azura bound them to the Lunar Latice, altering their forms and creating different variations of Khajit depending upon the moons when they were born.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:18 No.13531051
    More questions!
    Diveyth Fyr's clones/daughters/consorts. Some form of reference to Dagoth Ur and his Ash Vampires kin? When spoken to they all seemed to be very different in disposition, maybe because they had become so cloesly related to Dagoth Ur himself that they had become some fort of reverse-clones? Who, like Divayth's daughters reflectected his major characteristics, mirrored Dagoth's characteristics? A subtle play on how you become more like Dagoth, body soul and personality, the further you "ascend" as a Sleeper? Or am I being silly?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:20 No.13531071
    >>Akaviri races
    The snake people could be somehow vaguely connected to Hist. The monkey guys are a who the fuck knows though
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:21 No.13531076
    I think you're being silly.
    As far as I ever figured out, his research into the corpus disease led him down a path of magical genetics work, and into cloning. Then he had the classic lonely nerd thought 'my own clone! then neither of us will be virgins!' and made genderswaped clones of himself.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:23 No.13531085
    The Imga, maybe? And if the Imga are in anyway related to the Altmer as they think they are, then that'd make the "monkey guys" into Mer.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:23 No.13531089
    Speaking of Fyr... I always got the feeling that he was supposed to be the Hero of Battlespire, what with his extreme power and collection of artifacts that came from there. Did anyone else get that vibe from him?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:24 No.13531094
    I think he was referring to the motang.
    though, those could have a similar backstory.
    With less reverse-furry, of course.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:25 No.13531100
    Isn't he far too old for that?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:26 No.13531104
    The fact that they derived from research on the Divine Disease, created by Dagoth Ur, the very same thing responsible for turning things into Sleepers and Corprus mosnters, only helps my theory. He reverse-engineered the reverse-clone properties.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:26 No.13531106
    Never played battlespire.
    But it helps that he pretty much WAS the canon main character.
    >> Shas'o R'myr !!J5+vjygjQuK 01/15/11(Sat)13:27 No.13531107

    Fyr is NEVER too old for anything.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:28 No.13531115
    4000 years young and getting younger every year!

    I wonder if having sex with your clone counts as masturbation?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:28 No.13531117
    Fyr is 4000 odd years old and nobody fucks with him, ever.
    I think that counts as a retired PC
    Also doesn't he have some of the special artifacts that the PC picked up in a previous game?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:29 No.13531122
    Badly phrased. I meant that he reverse-engineered the reverse-clone properties and got the physical and mental reverse of the corprus reverse-cloning. And made his daughters with it. But the divine properties were still beyond him, which is why they don't share any particular metaphysical link like Dagoth Ur does with his Sleepers.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:29 No.13531124
    You can never be old or powerfull enough for the spire.
    I mean, it's the place people like Mannimarco(the real one) and Jagar Tharn went to get more powerful. Surely Fyr is a man of simillar caliber.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:42 No.13531204
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    >> Alpharius 01/15/11(Sat)13:46 No.13531230
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    Alright, that was a good thread everybody. We've reached autosage. See you again next time.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)13:47 No.13531235
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    >bunch of angry slave-bait led by demented tree conquer more land than two hardass forces combined manage to raid.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)14:33 No.13531637


    -Hlaalu Helseth made some pretty bad decisions, leading to the utter collapse of House Indoril.
    -Oblivion Gates opened up all over Morrowind, causing widespread chaos which the soldiers would have to contain.
    -The Tribunal is gone, demoralizing the Dunmer population.
    -Fugitives from Vvardenfell flee to the mainland after the eruption of Red Mountain, creating more chaos and a strain on the economy.
    -Mainland Morrowind has a lot of jungle and swampy areas to it thanks to the abundance of Saltrice plantations, and Argonians are natural jungle and swamp fighters.
    -The Empire pulled up stakes, leaving Morrowind to fend on its own.
    -According to the rumours in Oblivion, the Nords and Orcs were besieging House Redoran, whose holds were in the northwest part of the country.

    So yeah, I'd say it was fairly accurate.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)14:34 No.13531644
    Argonians are really under rated as a race. They can fuck some shit up when they feel like it. Also the Nord/Orc thing was just a informal, quick land grab of convenience, while the argonian invasion was a bloody revenge fueled attack.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)14:40 No.13531705
    How exactly do the other Tribunal gods and Nerevar factor in to this? Also I forget - why exactly did Almalexia flip her shit?
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)14:41 No.13531714
    House Redoran is unfortunate. They are powerful warriors, noble and storng, basically lawful good. Helseth and and Dres basically teamed up to take them down politically, leaving one less House to defend against invasions.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)17:28 No.13533192
    If I remember there was only Vivec left alive, and he didn't seem to care. I remember there was some area where you could actually get to a shrine to him in oblivion. You had to do a bunch of glitches or some shit but you would eventually be able to get in and find Vivec just floating there, and if you tried to talk to him he would say "don't you have someplace important to be?"

    So possibly the story is he wasn't even IN morrowind when the big bad shit happened.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)19:21 No.13534260

    I guess you never played the game since talking to Vivec is part of the main quest.
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)19:27 No.13534314
    she killed sotha sil because she thought he had betrayed her or something and went insane with corruption
    >> Anonymous 01/15/11(Sat)19:51 No.13534524
    I was talking about TES4: Oblivion, and if talking to vivec is part of the main line in oblivion then it must be after you rescue the priest-bastard and join the blades, because once I got access to the katanas and blade armor I split, became master of the mage's guild, thieves guild, dark brotherhood, and the MADGOD in that order.

    Fuck the normal world, it fucked itself over so bad a daedric lord raping the ivory tower they worship would probably go unnoticed.

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