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    303 KB Misconceptions about Arms and Armor thread. Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:23 No.12435523  
    Having looked through a few of the threads we've had recently on various fantasy armors, I'd say you chaps need some schooling:

    Plate armor isn't THAT heavy, and as long as it's properly fitted it isn't hard to move in. A full suit would weigh between 45 and 80 pounds, usually towards the lighter end.

    "boiled leather" armor wasn't actually boiled. Cuirbouilli armor (the proper term) was heat treated either in an oven or in hot water but the water never reaches temperatures anywhere near boiling. The term "hardened leather" armor would be far more appropriate.

    There is no such thing as "studded armor". All variants are simply metal armour with a textile or leather foundation. The rivets or studs hold the metal plates to the foundation. The historical term for this is "brigandine". Adding studding to leather or textiles will do nothing. If anything, it'd be likely to actually reduce its ability to protect you since attacks would be less likely to deflect off.

    The term "mail" refers to what DnD calls "chainmail". The terms "Plate mail", "scale mail" and so on are fabrications. Historically, "scale mail" would be called "lamellar armor", and "plate mail" "plate armor" .

    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:24 No.12435536
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    What DnD refers to as a "longsword" is actually an "arming sword" (or broadsword, if you really must. It's wrong, but not quite as wrong). Longswords were what DnD calls "bastard swords" - swords usable with one or two hands.

    Swords are not particularly heavy. Single handed swords are usually between 2-3 pounds, and even two handed swords are usually between 3-4 pounds. Some two handed swords weight eight or more pounds (these were called greatswords - see pic), but they were used more like polearms than swords, and weren't particularly common.

    Katanas are neither exceptionally good or exceptionally bad swords. The only remarkable thing about them is the convoluted method of manufacture.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:26 No.12435556
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    >>12435536 Some two handed swords weight eight or more pounds (these were called greatswords - see pic)

    Oops, meant to upload this.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:29 No.12435578
    I have this problem where I always believe things people tell me so long as it sounds possible. Maybe it's because I really hate it when people tell me I'm wrong because I don't carry studies and statistics around in my pocket.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:30 No.12435590
    Crossbows were made illegal by the pope because they were too devastating.

    Maces are actually one of the most effective weapons against a lot of types of armor because the armor can't stop the blunt force trauma.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:32 No.12435601
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    >Katanas are neither exceptionally good or exceptionally bad swords. The only remarkable thing about them is the convoluted method of manufacture.

    THANK YOU. Not that anybody will listen, but thank you.
    >> QuestionC 10/13/10(Wed)22:32 No.12435602
    Not a weapons expert, but what little I've read historywise...

    * Heavier plate armor (80 lbs) was from a early period of plate armor where knights were basically wearing both mail and plate at the same time.

    * The creation of plate armor obviated the need for shields.
    >> 40Kfag from /m/ !!rthE8hgFXea 10/13/10(Wed)22:34 No.12435624
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    >>>Katanas are neither exceptionally good or exceptionally bad swords. The only remarkable thing about them is the convoluted method of manufacture.

    6/10 for insensitivity
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:35 No.12435638
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    Oh, and here's what a historical broadsword looked like.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:36 No.12435645
    >>12435523 "boiled leather" armor wasn't actually boiled

    I didn't actually know that. Huh. I suppose it makes sense though - all it is is leather that's been cured to be very very tough.

    I'll add one of my own - there are two reasons katanas got such a badass reputation. Firstly, by the time Europeans encountered them, they'd stopped bothering to make decent swords for a century or two (19th century cavalry sabers were pretty much all utter crap), and thus had no experience with how deadly a sword could be. Secondly, in the leadup to WW2, Imperial Japan spent a lot of effort pushing "Katanas are the greatest sword, ever" propaganda on their citizens.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:36 No.12435650
    This man preaches the truth! It is good to see someone who has paid attention where necessary!
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:37 No.12435660
    Except he's not trolling. He's right, in fact. The Katana had an advantage as a slashing weapon due to its curve, but the relatively blunt point made it useless as a piercing weapon and thus limited its effectiveness against armored opponents.

    And the method of manufacture is remarkable, if only in that it managed to produce swords of reasonable-to-high quality given the horrbily shitty nature of the iron ores to be found in Japan.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:39 No.12435681
    Excellent points, OP. I was having a discussion with someone about this recently and I'd mentioned that today's military plate armor was heavier (or about as heavy) as some suits of traditional plate.

    Katanas actually had to be made with that convoluted method of production because of the shit-tier quality of Japanese iron at the time. If anything, the katana and other Japanese swords are great examples of really getting the most out of what you've got
    >> 40Kfag from /m/ !!rthE8hgFXea 10/13/10(Wed)22:40 No.12435684
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    I know he's right, but it still hurts!
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:40 No.12435689
    >Crossbows were made illegal by the pope because they were too devastating.

    Actually no. While the crossbow was certainly much better against armour than the bow, the pope didn't just ban crossbows, he also banned all ranged weapons, including slings.

    >Maces are actually one of the most effective weapons against a lot of types of armor because the armor can't stop the blunt force trauma

    Again, not quite true. While the mace is a good choice against armoured opponents, the warhammer is far superior.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:40 No.12435692
    Beat me to it, you sly dog.
    >> hohoh i know you will all reply to this and it will become a shitstorm! 10/13/10(Wed)22:42 No.12435707
    >>>>Katanas are neither exceptionally good or exceptionally bad swords. The only remarkable thing about them is the

    fact that they look wicked radical, brometheus.

    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:42 No.12435710
    >implying a trained euro-American officer would be to frightened to remember he had a double action revolver that could kill the swordsman before he even got close in addition to the fact that Swords at that time wern't better than the average sword used by footsoldiers and a perticularly rich officer wouldnt be able to get himself a finer blade if he wanted it
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:42 No.12435714
    Splitting hairs, but true nonetheless. What exactly made warhammers far superior to maces?
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:42 No.12435715
    Minor point I'd like cleared up regarding blunt weapons, actually. It seems to me that because the interlinked pieces can distribute impact force across a greater area, your bog-standard chain hauberk or a shirt of lamellar/scale armor would be more effective protection against a mace or hammer than a suit of plate. Any truth in that?
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:43 No.12435721
    Actually, at the very end of the Edo period, there was an upswing in the quality of average Japanese swordcraft. Japanese swordmaking is basically divided into three eras: "Old Swords" are the cream of the crop, and go from the Kamakura period to around the end of the Sengoku era. "New Swords" were the shit tier--this is the majority of Tokugawa era swords. Swordsmithing traditions were allowed to lie fallow or just plain out and out lost during this time, thus you only really saw the basic lamination techniques and none of the advanced shit save a handful of really really dedicated smithing families (like, yes, the Masamune line). After that you had the "New Revival Swords", starting somewhere in the early 1800s before Perry arrived. These swords are better than New Swords, but not quite up to Old Sword standards.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:43 No.12435731
    I'll throw my two cents in.
    Cavalry was considered as secondary to infantry until the middle ages because stirrups hadn't been invented. It was only until around the turn of the first millenium that stirrups were invented and lances could be used effectively.
    >> Longsword Tank 10/13/10(Wed)22:44 No.12435735

    From which era? That sword is obviously post-Renaissance, as basket hilts on swords were only implemented as a development of the complex hilts found on rapiers.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:44 No.12435741
    Swords were rarely used by foot troops. Foot troops usually used polearms of some sort. Spears and halberds were the norm
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:44 No.12435743
    It was good up until...

    >>12435536Katanas are neither exceptionally good or exceptionally bad swords. The only remarkable thing about them is the convoluted method of manufacture.

    holy fuck do you actually browse /tg/?

    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:44 No.12435747
    Yep. It's just that the final product wasn't equally shit.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:45 No.12435749
    I try to tell people that plate armor was not that heavy but no one wants to listen.

    I even saw a documentary with a guy wearing full plate armor were they proved that it was easy to both run and jump with it, though your movements were slightly clumsy unless you are trained in using it. Mounting a horse without help was possible as well.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:45 No.12435759
    From any era, as these types of swords are the ONLY ones that were actually called "broadswords" in history. Using broadsword to refer to an arming sword or longsword is a wholly modern thing.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:45 No.12435760
    The fact that they were heavier and focused the impact on a smaller point I think, plus the fact that many of them featured spikes or picks on the reverse for picking apart downed opponents.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:48 No.12435796
    best tg thread in forever
    >> Cerebrate Anon 10/13/10(Wed)22:49 No.12435799
    This was actually an interesting piece of history...

    Throughout Pre-Revolution Europe, there were scattered efforts by the Catholic Church to eradicate War. The Pope declared ranged weapons anathema. The Church declared that High Saint Days were days when Christians could not do battle, then suddenly increased the number of such days so that a properly-devout Christian soldier could only ride into battle on 3 or 4 non-sequential days of the year. The Church tried ineffectually to convince Europeans that they couldn't go to war with other Christians.

    All of this meddling failed, of course, but it was an admirable effort...and, of course, it really pissed off Martin Luther, who just saw a bunch of meddling priests screwing up the religion with politics (next time somebody goes over Luther's objections, pay attention to the parts about excessive Feast Days. This is what he meant).

    If it weren't for other Popes essentially leading troops into battle, this might be enough to make me respect the whole religion.
    >> Longsword Tank 10/13/10(Wed)22:49 No.12435802

    I understand that, but I'm specifically asking what period in time it dates from, both for my own edification and for the benefit of our lurkers. My knowledge of hoplology is still somewhat hazy once you hit the post-Renaissance time period.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:50 No.12435813
    Dude can cartwheel! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:50 No.12435820
    Oh! My bad, my bad. I believe that is a very early 18th century design. Like c.1700.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:50 No.12435821
    Ah, I didn't know that. Looking at historical examples of blunt weapons used in the past, I was somewhat surprised to find out that they weren't all that large; maces were about the size of one's fist, and warhammers were the size of, well, hammers. I guess I was expecting some DnD-scaled stuff.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:50 No.12435823
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    LARP fag here

    I have made a fucking steel cuiras - with pauldrons and everything

    even made steel bracers and greaves

    my one chainmail is HEAVIER than all of the above combined. i shit you not.

    (armor is 2mm steel - not sure how that translates to gauge or inch - but its good armor, and good steel)

    pic fucking related
    >> Agares !a9.MfebhPU 10/13/10(Wed)22:53 No.12435850
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    assuming you're talking swords here.

    this baby could have been the apex predator of the sword world. other than the odd looks it possesses a nearly ingenious design.

    >a sword/axe hybrid= much like the falchion, most f the weight was at the end of the blade, making an overhead or side to side strike powerful enough to permanently disable an opponent.

    >curvaceous= though a little convoluted, using the arch of the sword to reach around a shield would be devastating to the defender's arm

    >get stabby!= the sharkshead point makes a moderately powerful skin-can opener.

    the drawback? nobody gave it any love
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:53 No.12435852
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    >What exactly made warhammers far superior to maces?
    The warhammer delivers about the same force with a mace but does it in a much smaller area ( probably a little faster too, since the head is smaller). Also, the spike is a great way to kill you opponent.

    I really can't say for sure, but I imagine they might give a slight advantage due to the thickness and larger surface area.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:53 No.12435853

    About your pic: Not only is the very idea of an axehead on two ends of a staff ridiculous, but also there is no recorded use of a double bitted ax at all, despite the slightly less ridiculousness of it.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:54 No.12435863
    That's called a...khopesh?
    >> Longsword Tank 10/13/10(Wed)22:54 No.12435870

    You accidentally hit upon a good point. Your armor is nothing like medieval plate armor, both in terms of effectual thickness and carbon content. At least, that's the assumption I'm jumping to.

    However, mail armor was harder to move around in than plate. Not necessarily because of the weight of the armor, but because plate armor came with a quilted harness that it could be strapped to in order to more evenly distribute the weight. It's actually a bit easier to manage than the average modern soldier's loadout, in my experience.

    >macking until
    Yes, Captcha. Plate armor also gets you bitches to mack on until
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:56 No.12435888
    >>12435660Except he's not trolling. He's right, in fact. The Katana had an advantage as a slashing weapon due to its curve, but the relatively blunt point made it useless as a piercing weapon and thus limited its effectiveness against armored opponents.

    Katanas are good at thrusting. Yes, longswords are cool too but don't be a hater.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:56 No.12435892

    While the khopesh is fuck-awesome, it lacks the length necessary for a cavalry sword (which is what curved swords usually are), and strait swords are usually superior in a straitup duel.

    So the only real thing of not about the khopesh is that it's a really early example of a sword and that it's FUCK AWESOME.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:56 No.12435897
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    Also, I'd like to borrow OPs thread for a moment to speak to some horseshit that's been floating 'round /tg/ recently.

    A lot of people have claimed that using the hilt of an arming sword as a weapon was an attempt to sneak a halberd into sword-only honor duels. This is a gigantic sack of shit. Using the heavy counter-weight pommel as a bludgeoning weapon was common, when you could manage it, because the blunt smashy-smashy could hurt men in plate armor pretty well (like a mace.) This didn't mean the arming sword of the plate armor era wasn't still a sword; it's just that a variety of tactics were applied to it to deal with plate armor.

    In this picture you can see a man holding the blade half-way down the hilt; this is called "half-swording," and provides greater control and precision at the cost of reach. This is especially important to note with Longswords- ever noticed how many of them have a very long non-sharpened area in front of the blade (the Ricasso?) That was meant for gripping, for half-sword technique. It allowed you to hold the weapon out in front of you almost like a spear; holding the enemy at bay. It was hardly necessary to the employment of the longsword, however, since it was a perfectly fast weapon in it's own right.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)22:58 No.12435918
    They could, as well as any metal object with a pointy end and a handle can, but not particularly well compared to other weapons. Certainly not as well as a european sword.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:00 No.12435927
    This, more or less, though really I want to see what a katana's tip actually could do to a shirt of chain with proper backing from a gambeson or other padding. Just to finally KNOW exactly how strong a katana's thrust actually is.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:00 No.12435931

    true, but for LARPing purposes it does its job frighteningly well - seriously.


    i know. but for the concept of weight... then ya, steel armor can be quite light. I am also aware that its nowhere near as thick as old medieval armor - but hey: how thick was roman lorica hamatas (the legionaire armor - i was heavily inspired by its design in making my armor)
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:02 No.12435949

    Point of information: Lorica Hamtata was Roman Chainmail. Lorica Segmentata was the interlocked-plate armour you see in most modern depictions.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:03 No.12435963
    >>12435918They could, as well as any metal object with a pointy end and a handle can, but not particularly well compared to other weapons. Certainly not as well as a european sword.

    They penerate usually as well as a longsword, sometimes better.

    Both of those swords will do worse than say, an estoc
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:03 No.12435965

    i honestly doubt it'd do much

    'cutting through armor' - it really is not something that you do unless you have something like an axe or similar chopping weapon... and its quite likely to get stuck or tangled in the armor just the same (and inside your target too... but you've disarmed yourself as well)
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:03 No.12435968
    Another point about the katana:


    Yes, they did. Starting at about 1300ish.

    The Celts had been doing it since 700 BC.

    Thats' a 2000 year gap.

    Also, has anyone ever noticed that the katana pretty much didn't change a lick for 500 years? Show me a European sword from 1300 and another one from 1600 and the differences are jarring. Because Europeans weren't a bunch of isolationist pansies and actually changed their sword designs to accommodate developing technology.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:04 No.12435976

    Looks really awesome.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:04 No.12435980

    my bad - but the question stands, how thick was their stuff?

    the replicas i've seen of that type of armor do not use metal much thicker than what i used...
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:05 No.12435988

    thanks :3
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:05 No.12435990
    >>12435714What exactly made warhammers far superior to maces?

    Warhammers came arounda fter people stopped using shields and more plate around

    It's worse against shields
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:05 No.12435992
    Not really. There is another blade which has the same emphasis on forward-weighting; the Kukri, and Kukris are only useful as short blades due to the fact that weighting the blade in such a manner made it very unwieldy. True, it does give it a lot of slashing power due to said weighting, but it's a lot cheaper and a lot more effective to use the axe in that manner. And virtually -any- bladed weapon intended for war could 'permanently disable' an unarmored opponent with a single overhead/horizontal blow, provided they landed the blow correctly. In addition, the Africans created a sickle sword called the shotel which could also reach around shields-The problem was is that it, like the khopesh, was also very unwieldy.
    Plus, the khopesh lacks the tapering point required to punch through armor effectively.
    >> Agares !a9.MfebhPU 10/13/10(Wed)23:06 No.12435999
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    here's a big one for grimdark animefags

    repeat after me:


    although I do recall seeing a few illustrations in a spanish fencing manual about defending yourself from scythes.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:06 No.12436004

    Katanas changed a fair bit actually. Very early on, they were straight-swords and were basically straight copies of contemporary Chinese blades, they slowly started to switch over to a more curved design, and eventually started to get insanely curved before swinging back to the approximate curvature we associate with all Katanas today.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:06 No.12436005
    >>Misconceptions about Arms and Armor thread

    hmmm, what are the chances it's gonna devolve into katana hatewanking
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:06 No.12436006
    I don't imagine it was very thick. Thicker than those pieces of tinfoil they're always wearing in documentaries, of course; but since they placed such a heavy emphasis on defending with the shield, handing out heavy armor would seem a bit redundant.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:07 No.12436009
    Proper war scythes have the blade parallel to the haft, giving you a kind of forward-curved glaive.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:07 No.12436019
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    Whereas these are weapons made out of those tools.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:08 No.12436028
    >>12435927This, more or less, though really I want to see what a katana's tip actually could do to a shirt of chain with proper backing from a gambeson or other padding. Just to finally KNOW exactly how strong a katana's thrust actually is.

    I've seen tests done before, let me find the article.

    But basically, it does as well as a longsword
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:08 No.12436031

    Yes, the initial design of the katana circa 1100 was strait. It got the curve we know of today at around 1300 and did not change at all after that, unless you count the shortening that it got during WWII, but that isn't really a katana.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:09 No.12436035

    Spanish? probably instructions for defending yourself from irate farmers after having deflowered their daughters in the middle of the night.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:10 No.12436051
    A useful skill, you must admit.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:10 No.12436053
    I know, which is why I want to test a thrust. Penetrating attacks are more effective against armor than cutting ones.

    This. This. FUCKING THIS. Also, even while the broad strokes of the weapon shape remained more or less the same (a single-edged blade, curved), there were a lot of internal differences due to heavy experimentation and refinement of the exact lamination processes involved across different smithing families. For an example, see the katana cross-section brique I posted above. Unfortunately the loss of some of the more complex methods of doing this were part of why swordsmithing in Japan took a heavy quality hit during the Edo period.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:11 No.12436058
    Both of these terms are modern inventions anyway, we don't know what the Romans called their armor.

    Typically better armor was between 1 and 2 mm, you don't want them to be that heavy, or it is not useful.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:11 No.12436063
    >>12435870However, mail armor was harder to move around in than plate. Not necessarily because of the weight of the armor, but because plate armor came with a quilted harness that it could be strapped to in order to more evenly distribute the weight. It's actually a bit easier to manage than the average modern soldier's loadout, in my experience.

    harnesses can also be worn for chain armor.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:13 No.12436081
    throwing a belt over it is really the only alright way to distribute the weight of a hauberk. Well made plate armor was just better
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:13 No.12436088
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    I like swords, I like longswords since I saw Lodoss War and played JRPG's. I also like katanas

    They are both good swords :l
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:14 No.12436090
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    Really? I'm the the anon you responded to and while I'm firmly on the "katana is neither shit tier nor ungodly awesome" side of the argument, I'd have figured that the thickness of the tip would've gotten in the way. Though that said, not all katana tips were exactly the same, either (pic related).
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:14 No.12436093
    >>12436051 A useful skill, you must admit.

    Deflowering farmers' daughters in the middle of the night?

    ...Yes. Yes it is.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:14 No.12436100
    Wait, Japanese things gave you a love of longswords? You crazy, bro.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:15 No.12436108
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    OP: How would adding the studs make it less likely to protect you?

    Also, here's a picture of brigandine armor, for the thread's informative viewing enjoyment.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:17 No.12436122
    >>12436090Really? I'm the the anon you responded to and while I'm firmly on the "katana is neither shit tier nor ungodly awesome" side of the argument, I'd have figured that the thickness of the tip would've gotten in the way. Though that said, not all katana tips were exactly the same, either (pic related).

    yeah, the tester was pleasantly surprised.
    God damn I'm having a hard time finding the article, but this guy tested a whole bunch of swords (various european kinds that went from made for slashing to very pointy thrusters, and katana). He also swung a pollaxe.

    It was tested versus various thicknesses of padding, and chain.

    But on thickness, look at it another way- the spikes on pollaxes, bodkin arrows, those are all thick too, and a katana point is a triangular wedge.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:17 No.12436123
    >>12436081 throwing a belt over it is really the only alright way to distribute the weight of a hauberk

    Properly fitted mail "hugs" your body. Its' weight is distributed surprisingly well, especially when you add a proper military-belt.

    Poorly fitted mail just hangs from your shoulders, and is more tiring than armor that weighs twice as much.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:17 No.12436129

    Record of Lodoss War. A distinct lack of Katanas, and a metric button of traditional Western High Fantasy. Also Longswords.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:17 No.12436134
    I'm talking as someone who has no actual knowledge of the subject, but aren't katana similar to tanto in cross-section, and aren't tanto damn good at piercing things?
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:18 No.12436147
    not OP, but it could catch strokes that would otherwise glance off.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:18 No.12436149
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    >>12436100Wait, Japanese things gave you a love of longswords? You crazy, bro.

    A big part of my childhood was Secret of Mana.

    Then wRPGs give katanas crazy stats compared to regular longswords, and D&D goes and makes them "Superior".
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:19 No.12436160
    >> Close. Scale armor (erroneously termed "scale mail") and lamellar armor are not the same thing. They are differentiated in that scale male is attached to backing material and is more flexible. With lamellar armor, the scales are attached to each other in bottom-to-top patterning as opposed to the top-to-bottom patterning of scale armor.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:20 No.12436163
    >>12436108 OP: How would adding the studs make it less likely to protect you?

    Not OP, but the idea is, studs would stop glancing blows from sliding off.

    Brigandine works because the studs are attached to metal plates on the other side of the cloth.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:21 No.12436179
    I'm willing to bet it cut through the softer materials fairly well, failed miserably at cutting the chain, but did surprisingly well on the thrust against chain?

    True enough, though the internal profile of the steel in a tanto is usually radically different. Personally just to be safe, I'd want a katana with the o-kissaki, as that looks like it has just enough slenderness at the tip to successfully burst a mail ring.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:21 No.12436185
    Not OP, but I think it would be similar to arguments against boob-plate.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:22 No.12436187
    This, and they'd just be added weight unless they are set right next to each other... and if you have enough metal to do that, why aren't you making it into plates in the first place?
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:22 No.12436188
    Now I know why /tg/ is on a neverending tantrum over anything even remotely positive towards katanas.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:25 No.12436227
    >>12436179I'm willing to bet it cut through the softer materials fairly well, failed miserably at cutting the chain, but did surprisingly well on the thrust against chain?

    The guy didn't test slashing against chain with his swords, he didn't want to damage them.

    another interesting note though is the really optimized mail and plate breaking points did bad against padding, couldn't pierce it 'cause it was too thick.

    The swords with sharp edges pierced the padding though 'cause its point could still slice through.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:26 No.12436239

    Yeah, just agreeing with previous anons here, but your modern steel mock-up is nothing like medieval plate. I've worn both, they are night and day different.


    Correct anon is correct, ultra heavy plate is usually very early. It can also be very late- some attempts at armor that could stop bullets were made- the stuff become horse exhaustingly, shoulder deformingly, use a crane to get mounted heavy.

    One of the reasons plate obviated the use of shields is that two handed thrusts and heavy, heavy chops were needed to damage plate to a reasonable degree. So two handed leverage on otherwise one handed weapons became the norm.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:26 No.12436249
    Yep. Though hilariously D&D's treatment is pretty tame compared to some treatments. It's just a masterwork bastard sword, no different in any way than a masterwork bastard sword forged European-style.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:27 No.12436259
         File1287026835.jpg-(218 KB, 547x900, leatherarmor.jpg)
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    >why doesn't adding rivets increase the protection given by leather armor?

    its simple really.

    rivets are used to hold stuff together. look at the pic here - its very related - its typical fantasy leather armor.

    now, the big circles are the rivets. HOW DO THEY PROTECT??

    they're drawn round - anything hitting them would deflect into the softer leather, which can be cut/stabbed through

    if VS a mace or other bludgening weapons, then the studs just make it worse... if hit, they'l transmit the impact into your body.

    you need larger plates or something similar to absorb or fully prevent contact, not loose rivets that can be punched into the softer leather.

    because again, leather armor isn't that stiff - it will bend and yield, making it flexible...
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:27 No.12436262
    Hm. Interesting stuff.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:27 No.12436266
    ...Huh, didn't know that there was that much variety in tips.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:31 No.12436312
         File1287027069.jpg-(84 KB, 400x400, 1232406781613.jpg)
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    Not trying to be difficult, but I don't see why the studs being attached to metal plates would cause it not catch blows just as often as studs not attached to metal plates. Theoretically, they stick up the same amount from the armor. What am I not seeing?
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:32 No.12436329
    Yep. There was also variety in where exactly the apex of the blade's curve was, whether or not there was a groove, and as mentioned before, the exact complexity and steel grades involved in the lamination layers.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:32 No.12436334
    >>12436312 Not trying to be difficult, but I don't see why the studs being attached to metal plates would cause it not catch blows just as often as studs not attached to metal plates

    Yeah, but if there's metal plates behind, THOSE PROTECT AGAINST THE BLOW.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:33 No.12436342
    The idea is that the studs aren't the things catching the blows, it's the metal plates which they're holding against the leather backing.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:33 No.12436343
         File1287027206.jpg-(63 KB, 659x945, ridgefinal3.jpg)
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    Straight, curved, that's easy to see differences in yeah.

    but don't forget cross sections, that adds a whole nuther dimension (GET IT?) to sword design.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:36 No.12436384
    Also, somebody posted a pic of Anima katanas. Anima katanas are kind of interesting. They do the same damage as a basic long sword and have the same speed. They're slightly easier to physically break, but *significantly* harder to break or affect otherwise (say somebody tries to cast a spell that turns your weapon into a rubber chicken) via magic.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:42 No.12436450
         File1287027740.png-(171 KB, 380x248, angederp1.png)
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    >ceramic armor
    >elf shit
    Hmm... elf manure ceramics. Due to high fibre content, makes for great armor when treated correctly.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:43 No.12436460
    rolled 53 = 53

    Metal Shields, unless it was a buckler (which were 8 or so inches across) nobody made or used metal shields in combat (though I don't know about jousting). Shields were wood, they were expected to break, and people brought as many as they could afford/carry to the battlefield.

    >shicint honorable
    good point captcha, Shields were also commonly associated with dueling (this is where the word swashbuckling comes from, a kind of dueling popular before rapiers, involving bucklers)
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:43 No.12436462
    I read that as "Anime katanas" and Sacred Blacksmith immediately came to mind.

    I feel... unclean
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:44 No.12436472
    Fun fact: War hammers look nothing like you would think. They'd better be described as a military pick-axe. Wonderful for punching right through plate armor (or anything else) and though it would have a hammer head on the reverse, it would hardly ever be used as such.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:45 No.12436500

    I think the difference is that there are, well, metal plates under the leather, in that case. The design might not deflect the hits as well, but the metal underneath will make the armor more resistant to penetration. Whereas leather armor with studs in it for no good reason is the worst of both worlds...it combines the (relative) softness of leather armor with the ineffective and hindering studs for no real gain.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:46 No.12436502
    rolled 50 = 50

    I totally lol'd. I think the same thing every time I'm reminded that ceramics are used in modern armor
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:46 No.12436509
    Turks and Persians used some all metal shields. They were small tho. Not that much larger than a buckler, but still technically shields because they were strapped like shields.

    (still more of an aberration)
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:47 No.12436519
    Weren't bucklers still used with rapiers for a short time before stuff like offhanded cloaks and the main gauche became popular?
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:48 No.12436535
    rolled 58 = 58

    I did not know that. If you are going to use a shield of that size, though metal is probably the way to go. Larger and it sucks
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:49 No.12436538

    How about pavise shields?
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:50 No.12436551

    bucklers are usually paired with slashing/chopping weapons (the "swash" in swash-buckler)

    you don't really want to parry a slash with your arm, even with a cloak.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:51 No.12436562
    rolled 73 = 73

    Wood stops opposing crossbowman's bolts just fine
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:51 No.12436563
         File1287028302.jpg-(43 KB, 548x811, armourclassmortuarywl0.jpg)
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    Ahh, so more weapons like the English mortuary sword or what we now call "side-swords", then?

    Incidentally, I loved that Assassin's Creed 2 had shitloads upon shitloads of that particular type of sword.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:52 No.12436570
    >>12436551 bucklers are usually paired with slashing/chopping weapons

    What? no, that's completely wrong. They were mostly used with side-swords and rapiers. Neither of which you slash with.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:52 No.12436576
    This reminds me, how exactly would one use a dagger or a cloak as an off-hand weapon? The cloak I can guess, but aren't there plenty of better things to parry with than a dagger?
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:53 No.12436581
         File1287028383.jpg-(384 KB, 1000x1000, pavise_1_gr.jpg)
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    Would YOU want to carry around a shield as big as a Pavise made out of solid metal?

    No. Shields were wood, occasionally skinned in metal.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:53 No.12436582

    a mortuary sword is not a side-sword. it's used more like a saber.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:53 No.12436583
    You can slash with a side-sword--they still have a full cutting edge. They were basically arming swords with more gorgeous hilts. The techniques of the time were starting to favor thrusts, though.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:54 No.12436590
    So when you parry their blade with your rapier, you can step inside their guard and stab them quickly.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:54 No.12436593
    I said "or", bro.

    A main gauche usually had a handguard and/or a pair of catching prongs on it to aid in deflection.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:54 No.12436596
         File1287028475.jpg-(17 KB, 296x287, I33.jpg)
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    here's some dudes chopping with bucklers
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:56 No.12436609
    >Pope doutook

    not him but...
    Yeas they were, even on battle fields actually. Spanish Sword & Buckler units were infamous in the early 16th century, and were used in the Italian Wars to break up enemy pike formations. The swords thay used were Espada Ropera -style "rapiers". Not quite as light as the what most people to day would picture a rapier as, but close to them.

    You have to remember that rapiers didn't just take the place of old arming swords. The two types of swords (rapier and "broadsword") coexisted for centuries. Rapiers were already a distinct class of weapons by the end of the 15th century, and broad bladed swords capable of hacking swings remained the primary type of sword on the battlefield until the early 17th century, and for example some French cavalry swords of the mid 19th century still retained the broad, heavier blades of earlier arming swords and broadswords.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:56 No.12436611

    It was more about the "Expected to break" and "Carry as many as they could afford". There are pavises who'se paint jobs are minor works of art.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:58 No.12436623
         File1287028686.jpg-(327 KB, 1000x1000, pavese.jpg)
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    Ah forgive me then.

    And yeah, some of those suckers are pretty.
    >> Anonymous 10/13/10(Wed)23:58 No.12436633
    Yeah, I've seen the super early rapier designs you're talking about...a lot of them basically looked like a normal arming sword, sometimes completely lacking a knuckle guard, with a slightly thinner-than-normal blade.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:02 No.12436670

    Bucklers were mostly used with thrusting swords. Saying "you COULD slash with one" doesn't change that. You can slash with a damn rapier if you have to, but that's primarily not what it's for.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:03 No.12436683
    See the picture of brigandine in

    Note the large plates and small rivets. It would be very hard to have a shot hit the rivet, and if it did, it would make only a tiny difference as the force spread out into the plate(s) struck. The plates would disperse the force and prevent penetration.

    Now imagine instead that you had some fairly stiff but still flexible material. You punch metal things through it, creating weak points more likely to tear. Out of those weak points you've got a bunch of studs likely to catch all the force of a weapon. So, A) blows won't glance off like they would with just stiff material, B) studs would transmit the impact on tiny points instead of big areas, and C) the force would be caught by things attached to the parts of your armor most likely to tear/break.

    That's three degrees of bad idea right there.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:04 No.12436685
    Chillax, dude. Nobody is saying that it changes anything, only that side-swords were still, strictly speaking, in that whole "cut and thrust" class.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:16 No.12436805
    In other news, horned helmets are a fucking terrible idea and were never worn into battle.

    God damn Wagner and all Victorian pseudohistorians forever.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:17 No.12436819
    Granted, much of the reason that "mail" is used is because medieval historians were also maddeningly imprecise at times - many documents use "maille" as a catch-all term for all armour.

    The entire Japanese "cult of the sword" really had an upswing in the Tokuwaga period. Because it was an enforced period of peace, proficiency with the traditional samurai battlefield skills - horsemanship, archery, and naginata/yari fighting were devalued - armour and polearms are hardly what you'd take with you for a trip into the city, for example, and thus they'd be left at home: this is where the association of the naginata with samurai women begins (because that would be what they would have on hand to fend off a robber or the like). What samurai always would carry, however, was their sword, and as a result, sword skill became more highly prized.

    Part of the reason cavalry came into greater prominence during the medieval period was the growing inability of the Roman Empire to maintain the roads they had built - without the roads, armies of heavy infantry could not move very quickly or efficiently, necessitating the use of cavalry as a quick reaction force.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:26 No.12436907
    You are now aware that the colichemarde is pretty much the first pure thrusting sword - up till the late 1600s, ALL swords were to some degree slashing/cutting/chopping weapons.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:32 No.12436972
    >The entire Japanese "cult of the sword" really had an upswing in the Tokuwaga period. Because it was an enforced period of peace, proficiency with the traditional samurai battlefield skills - horsemanship, archery, and naginata/yari fighting were devalued - armour and polearms are hardly what you'd take with you for a trip into the city, for example, and thus they'd be left at home: this is where the association of the naginata with samurai women begins (because that would be what they would have on hand to fend off a robber or the like). What samurai always would carry, however, was their sword, and as a result, sword skill became more highly prized.

    This is true, and yet highly ironic given that this is also the period where the general quality of swords started to drop.
    >> four 10/14/10(Thu)00:33 No.12436981
    Battle axes were nothing like woodcutting axes (far thinner and lighter heads) and apart some ceremonial axes never had two heads. A heavy weapon is generally a bad thing, a tired arm can quickly become a dead body. Pic is a dude with a Danish axe. Slashing with swords, daggers, anything really is so popular in fiction, but axes cut through things like nothing else. The lopping off of limbs and heads was primarily an axe thing, not that that would carry a significant advantage over a stab to the gut. Real life has no HP, pretty much all wounds are crippling if not disabling.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:33 No.12436984
    Best goddamn thread on /tg/ right now.
    >> four 10/14/10(Thu)00:34 No.12436992
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    Fuck, here is pic
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:35 No.12436998

    Things are idealized and fetishized more as they become less common and/or are thought to be under attack. Witness all the people who never gave a shit about atheist marriage, interfaith marriage, or divorce, but will shout to the rooftops about the "sanctity of marriage" when you suggest a gay couple be allowed to do it. More text and energy about the Sacred Meaning of Marriage will be produced from the last couple decades than the last two centuries.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:36 No.12437009
         File1287031005.jpg-(76 KB, 1200x600, ThatTimeAgain.jpg)
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    B-b-but axes have a disadvantage over swords on the weapon triangle!

    In all seriousness, yes it is. Certainly the best weapon-related thread we've had in weeks, too.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:36 No.12437010
         File1287031005.jpg-(16 KB, 282x180, A000056.jpg)
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    Estoc called, it think's you're a faggot.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:38 No.12437028
    ...and now it's been ruined thanks to 4chan image faggotry.
    >> four 10/14/10(Thu)00:39 No.12437033
         File1287031145.jpg-(15 KB, 640x405, ph-0.jpg)
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    Well I guess that was corrupted or something. Whatever, not a very good pic anyways. Can post pics of wacky Indian weapons now? I really like wacky Indian weapons. Pic is a pata, a sword that you stick on your fist punch people with. It's a rarer and more outrageous relative of the katar punch-dagger.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:40 No.12437051
    I actually have a character that uses one of those.

    True enough, and such nostalgia is probably what eventually led to the general quality upswing of the "new revival swords" period in the early 19th century.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:42 No.12437066
    Hear ye hear ye!
    'Tis a glorious day on /k/ in the year of our lord 1492!
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:42 No.12437068

    Your mother was a pike and your father was a guisarme. Face it, Estoc, you're a polearm with quillons.
    >> four 10/14/10(Thu)00:46 No.12437090
         File1287031573.jpg-(277 KB, 1024x768, 2821253353_9061a20abb_b.jpg)
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    Khanda are big Indian chopping swords what look fancy. They've got reinforcing on the sides because the blade is thin. The handles often look cushy and lovable like a nice sofa.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:50 No.12437120
         File1287031800.jpg-(23 KB, 668x162, Kriegsmesser.jpg)
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    Aw, it corrupted too--won't load more than a bit after clicking. I always liked the khanda more than the tulwar, though the tulwar is cool too.

    Speaking of adding quillons to a weapon...take a saber, add a knife handle and a quillons, and you have a Kriegsmesser, pretty much.
    >> four 10/14/10(Thu)00:50 No.12437125
         File1287031823.jpg-(36 KB, 450x312, bagh-nakh.jpg)
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    You know bagh nakh? Those are real fucking things, and they look like this.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:51 No.12437132
         File1287031890.jpg-(67 KB, 413x550, Image67.jpg)
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    Awl Pike was here, you jelly Estoc?
    >> four 10/14/10(Thu)00:51 No.12437139
    what the fuck is going on with (my) images?
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:53 No.12437151

    You got a virus, bro. One of the ones that spreads in JPEGs.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:53 No.12437157

    interference from the alien invasion
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:54 No.12437169
    S'happening all over /tg/, bro.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:54 No.12437172

    this is what you get for saving those pictures of girls pooping
    >> four 10/14/10(Thu)00:54 No.12437173
    But I use so much NoScript... trolling?
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:55 No.12437176
         File1287032134.jpg-(18 KB, 328x317, 523452345.jpg)
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    Pardon the horrifically ugly 3D model wielding them but do pay notice to the instruments themselves.

    Katars: The unsung heros of badass weaponry. Imagine a blade that could be wielded with a single hand, could be used for slashing maneuvers, could penetrate nearly any armor and came built with telescoping tri-blades which could be used to expand and eviscerate a foe or entangle and disarm his weapon.

    Now imagine you had one on each hand and could move with the agility of a boxer. These fuckers could do some fucking work. Granted they don't have a great reach a skilled Razput (Mispelled and cannot be arsed to fix) warrior could fuck UP some 'typical' swordsmen with a mixture of martial arts and exotic weaponry that is actually efficient and not just for show.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:55 No.12437177
    Not funny man.

    4chan is having a stroke, it'll pass.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)00:55 No.12437185
    Trolling. It's happened to me too and I just ran a check.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:00 No.12437225
    >>12437176 Katars

    No thanks. Block a heavy blow with one and your wrist breaks.

    They're banned at a lot of reenactment societies because of it.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:02 No.12437257

    probably why >>12437033 had that huge gauntlet built in.
    >> four 10/14/10(Thu)01:05 No.12437276
         File1287032705.jpg-(18 KB, 640x427, ph-0.jpg)
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    The large majority of katar were not triple bladed. They were good defensive weapons, but the 'agility of a boxer' thing would take a good deal of training as they had pretty thick blades (for mail-piercing) and would mess up the balance of your arms. Not that they'd slow you down or throw you off too much, but you would definitely feel the difference between katar-wielding and unarmed. Also, what's up with katar handles? They look like they'd spin about in your hands, especially because they seem to have been uncovered metal and your hands would get sweaty. Were there special grip gloves, or were they tied on somehow? Here's a wacky parrying weapon, hopefully it won't corrupt.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:07 No.12437306
    >Now imagine you had one on each hand and could move with the agility of a boxer.

    Now imagine you're fighting someone who has invested equal training and natural gifts into using a weapon with more reach.

    Once you add in "now imagine being at the apex of graceful and deadly with this weapon", it's all a moot point.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:08 No.12437313
    most katar had shafts that would come down from the sides of the handle and strap around the forearm for support.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:09 No.12437316
         File1287032945.jpg-(27 KB, 600x450, GunKatar.jpg)
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    I'm sorry, I *had* to.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:09 No.12437320
    Well the Katar family has alot of sub-sects. The more advanced retractable tri-bladed model Was remarkably light (3 lbs' each) and used a secondary handle that one depressed, as you would depressed a throttle on a motorcycle, and pop out the two extra blades.

    The secondary handle provided the stability not to let it ;twist' side to side. But that's why I said skilled Razput warrior. They used a slew of exotic weapons that were frighteningly deadly but only when employed with the martial art they trained with. Very fast, very power punches, and could deflect incoming single-handed sword sweeps with the tri-bladed formation and a twist.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:09 No.12437324
    were they actually used paired?

    where can I find a guide on how they were used anyways.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:10 No.12437330
    It's Rajput, by the way. And yeah, they were pretty badass--they were behind a lot of Indian weapon designs.
    >> four 10/14/10(Thu)01:11 No.12437337
         File1287033066.jpg-(22 KB, 640x480, GunKatar01.jpg)
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    I meant defensive here for deflecting blows, not blocking. I felt the need to post this weapon because of the sheer what-the-fuckery it evokes. Those are two blunderbusses built into the katar. Weapons like these were pretty much never used, they just were expensive fancy things to show off the skill of their makers.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:11 No.12437343
         File1287033100.jpg-(11 KB, 454x306, Jackie Chan with Ladder.jpg)
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    Oh hey guys, what's going on in this thread?
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:13 No.12437354
         File1287033197.jpg-(4 KB, 301x124, TantoPistol..jpg)
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    Somebody needs to post the gun mace and the pistol-dagger.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:13 No.12437361
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:14 No.12437365
    I swear to god I would never engage jackie chan in close range combat. I would drive 800ft away and pop his brain out of his skull with a high power sniper rifle.

    I am NOT going to get every bone in my arms broken by a fucking cement mixer and cardboard cutout of Susan Boyle. Or whatever else is within his reach,
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:16 No.12437384
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    >Was remarkably light (3 lbs' each) and used a secondary handle that one depressed, as you would depressed a throttle on a motorcycle, and pop out the two extra blades.
    >Was remarkably light (3 lbs' each)
    >three short knives
    >three lbs
    >remarkably light
    >mfw six foot long zweihanders run 4 to 7lbs
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:16 No.12437388
    >>12437257 probably why >>12437033 had that huge gauntlet built in.

    If you strap it to your arm, you lose a lot of agility with it. If you don't strap it to your arm, you risk breaking your wrist when blocking with it (or when having your strikes blocked).

    I'm not saying it was a bad weapon, but there was a reason why they weren't more commonly used.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:17 No.12437392
    >>12437365I swear to god I would never engage jackie chan in close range combat. I would drive 800ft away and pop his brain out of his skull with a high power sniper rifle.

    as you look through your scope, aiming at his head, you see Jackie stare straight at you with a look of shock.

    Then he just disappears. You search the surrounding area, he's not there.

    You hear the sound of the rooftop door shutting.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:19 No.12437406
    >Close combat with Jackie Chan

    No thank you. I don't want my obituary to say "killed by a horseshoe to the skull."
    >> four 10/14/10(Thu)01:20 No.12437418
         File1287033602.jpg-(14 KB, 489x326, indian mace3.jpg)
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    I'm pretty sure they were more often used with a buckler. India also had terrifying D&D style morningstars. Here's a link to a pic of a sort of axe called a bhuj because I don't feel right posting so much: http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms-and-armour/600/1915.48.69.jpg
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:28 No.12437490
         File1287034111.jpg-(55 KB, 600x520, hunting falchion.jpg)
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    The Falchion, in my opinion, is a great example of the pinnacle of european slashing sword designs. It's wider blade and slight curvature allowed it a lot more impact force and surface contact when swung.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:31 No.12437514
         File1287034308.jpg-(43 KB, 640x504, bruce lee and jackie chan.jpg)
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    oh, hey bro.

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:35 No.12437556
    More of a chopping sword than a slashing one, but I do agree that it's a lovely design.

    Do we have any fans of the Greek blade forms on here? Kopis/Xiphos/Makhaira?
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:44 No.12437619

    Utterly agreed. The Falchion isn't really a slashing sword. It's more akin to a chopper than a slashing sword. The pointy tip may exist, but the real use of it's as a cross between a sword an an axe.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:48 No.12437650
    Poor Clements has been trying to correct these kinds of misconceptions since 1993.

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)01:54 No.12437707
    Looks kind of good, except...I could've sworn "bastard sword" was not actually a historical term.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:01 No.12437768
    Welcome to the SCA-Forums, ten years ago.

    >Crossbows were made illegal by the pope because they were too devastating.

    And this is a lie, and even the pope knew it when he banned slings and bows in the same sentence. But Technological Progressfags have never heard of that ever.

    >(19th century cavalry sabers were pretty much all utter crap)

    Nigga, 19th century sabers were tested to hell and back. Back then we had an array of machines at every arsenal to stress-test blades which results in extremely uniform high quality in sabers.

    >Spanish Sword & Buckler units were infamous in the early 16th century, and were used in the Italian Wars to break up enemy pike formations.

    That's plain wrong. There's one battle where they managed to push back the pike-wielding Landsknechts after those had managed to storm a fortified camp and were in disarray and another accout where they managed to just sort of slide under the spears and into the formation but in general the Pikes wasted them so hard that generals stopped using them in set battles.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:03 No.12437796

    it's a hand and a half sword, hence a bastard.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:07 No.12437840
    Yes but the historical term was just "long sword" (as opposed to arming sword). "Bastard sword" and "hand and a half" are usually given as modern inventions by most of the sources I've come across.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:14 No.12437904
    >>12437768 Nigga, 19th century sabers were tested to hell and back

    Maybe in Europe, but all the US originals I've handled from that period have been pieces of shit. Horrible, horrible balance & quality compared to stuff from a century before.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:27 No.12438051
         File1287037676.jpg-(68 KB, 400x600, 1.jpg)
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    this is what is under the leather in a coat of plates what dnd confuses for studded leather
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:31 No.12438088
    Zweihanders: less a large sword, more a really nasty quarterstaff with metal bits. That's one of the reasons they had that leather/wood section between the guard and the blade. With a Zweihander, you had several different points to use as weapons;
    -bludgeon/knock out w/ pommel
    -whack them with the guard, either the crosspiece or the rings on either side
    -Hit em with the wood section between the guard and the blade
    -hit em with the spikes on there
    -flat of the blade
    -point for stabby fun.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:34 No.12438120
         File1287038081.jpg-(23 KB, 294x500, brig_craig1_1.jpg)
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    To be fair, for a short time there was a fashion for clothes that looked like brigandines, but weren't armor. They were just cloth with metal studs in.

    This is what a proper brigandine looks like on the outside:
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:36 No.12438135

    Here's the fucking pic, it shows both inside and outside of a proper brigandine:

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:49 No.12438255
    So... clearly this thread is worthy of archiving....
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:51 No.12438270
    >Technological Progressfags
    I like that. I'm going to use it in the future.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:52 No.12438278
         File1287039154.jpg-(54 KB, 627x640, greek2A.jpg)
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    >Do we have any fans of the Greek blade forms on here? Kopis/Xiphos/Makhaira?

    Hell yeah, Kopis/Makhaira (which I think refer to the same weapon) are badass.
    By the way, Xiphos is the Greek word for sword, not a specific kind of sword. After all, the common ancient greek sword is just a leaf bladed shortsword.
    >> Salamanders Fanbro !!C+aj9Hmz1qe 10/14/10(Thu)02:53 No.12438285
    Good luck, OP, I've tried to educate them for years with no signs of progress.

    Presumably, it's trolls all the way down.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:54 No.12438293
    It was my understanding that xiphos was used for the leaf bladed two-edged sword, kopis was the forward curved single-edged, and makhaira was the back curved single-edged..
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:54 No.12438305
    Mmm...sure, why not. Even with 4chan's images fucked to shit we actually have some good info in this thread.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)02:56 No.12438320
    >Poor Clements has been trying to correct these kinds of misconceptions since 1993.

    Clement is a dick about it. Furthermore, 70% of his wirting is whining about how the SCA is doing it wrong and 30% is about how he's the Center of the Universe and not the Sowiet Union of the international EMA-community.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:00 No.12438355
         File1287039610.jpg-(27 KB, 70x340, Makhaira.jpg)
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    Nope, Kopis and Makhaira are used interchangeably to refer to the same weapon.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:01 No.12438371
    >>12438255 So... clearly this thread is worthy of archiving....

    So go archive it then. I've never understood this trepidation about archiving. If it isn't liked, it'll get downvoted and sup/tg/ will just delete it anyway.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:01 No.12438380
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:06 No.12438421
    Huh. Whoever wrote the Wikipedia article might be wrong, then. Not that that's particularly uncommonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makhaira:
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:07 No.12438430
    Nice chart, I've always been looking for a good chart like that.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:07 No.12438431
    Gah, I cannot into the enter key for some reason.

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:08 No.12438447
    Thanks. I truck it out a lot in response to "but the katana never actually evolved in the 1000 years of its existance!" arguments.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:16 No.12438516
         File1287040585.jpg-(28 KB, 421x500, 1PSW-001.jpg)
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    Looks like there is a difference after all. In the kopis page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopis) it says this: The difference in meaning between kopis and makhaira (μάχαιρα, another Greek word, meaning "broad knife" or "short sword", "dagger") is not entirely clear in ancient texts,[1] but modern specialists tend to use both terms referred to a class of curved weapons, the only real difference being the direction of the blade curvature.[2]
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:16 No.12438523
    i dunno, i have always been a fan of polearms, and in most of the RPG's i dont feel that wepon fighting in general is depicted well.
    for example the Bisento while weaboo i imagine would fuck shit up its like a faster more slicy Halbred. With Poles i can keep people at range and hack off limbs all day. the fulcrum and force generated by the 6 foot section is srs bsns. Im an Amtgarder, Nerfnight and proud. But i use a flatblade because...well im not a pussy. I give my vote to best weapon class to polearms, hands down
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:20 No.12438548
    Oh yes, I'm quite fond of the various cleaver-like swords, be they Kopi, Kopesh, Falchion, Saber or otherwise.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:25 No.12438585
         File1287041131.jpg-(43 KB, 182x284, s_katakama_yari.jpg)
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    I like the bisento as well for its sheer killy glaiveness, but my favorite Japanese pole weapon is actually a variant of the yari shown here (assuming it loads properly): the katakama yari.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:28 No.12438609
    hey tha wouldnt be half-bad. you could punch through armor with the hafted L section and still deliver a mean thrust. ill have to try and make one of those the next time a have a decent core handy
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:29 No.12438612
    I should consider myself lucky I've never heard that bullshit before. It'd also be useful in comparing katana quality. So many people think all katanas are the same. So many people also think all european swords are the same too. :|
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:30 No.12438620
    one thing i've noticed that no-one ever seems to realise, at least in relation to games with electricity based magic. Full plate armor would render the wearer almost totally immune to the effects of electricity. i.e. Faraday cage. it doesn't really matter what the source of the electricity is.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:33 No.12438649
         File1287041631.jpg-(105 KB, 414x720, 33_200805181844261.jpg)
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    I've always loved Tanbogiri myself. Such a beautiful, and fairly practial Yari.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:34 No.12438652
    The Japs used a whole bunch of funky variations with the yari. One blade at right angles, two blades at right angles, paired crescent side blades, trident form blades, setting a right-angled hook at the *tip* of the blade instead of the base...really weird and cool stuff.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:34 No.12438653
    Oh wow, I've never seen that type before. That's sexy as hell.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:36 No.12438666
    Depends on the purity of the metal, if it's a high-resistance type it's generate tremendous head at electricity traveled though.
    Gettin zapped or broiled? I'd say they suck equally
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:40 No.12438695
    I doubt it's gonna work, aside from the fact that the armor is gonna get extremely hot, Faraday cages need very pure metals for good conductivity. Plate armor needs to have carbon to be good.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:43 No.12438716
    Typo'd. Tonbogiri. Dragonfly Cutter. It was actually Honda Tadakatsu's personal weapon, and one of the Three Great Spears of Japan. Ends up in a lot of vidya gaems, but they usually look like ungodly bastardizations of the real thing.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:43 No.12438718
    >The Japs used a whole bunch of funky variations with the yari.

    Yeah, like everyone had those. The only thing odd about the Japanese is that they predominantly use tangs on their polearms rather than sockets.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:48 No.12438749
    i think if you gave it a large enough tang that it would be more effective than sockets forcing the impact to travle through half of the blade instead of only 10% of it
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:49 No.12438764
    Everyone did have the Yari, just like any medieval army it was SPEARS SPEARS SPEARS SPEARS SPEARS swords SPEARS SPEARS SPEARS swords, and then
    beacuse arrows are cheating
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:50 No.12438771
    Socketed yari were used as well, actually. The point I was trying to make wasn't that they weren't notably more varied than anyone else, but rather that they weren't notably *less* varied than anyone else.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:50 No.12438774
    sorry Haft...not Blade

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:51 No.12438782

    Could you line the exterior of the plate with a conducting mesh and an insulator and rely on the inner plate for blocking blows?
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:52 No.12438786
    Also derp, that should have read "wasn't that they WERE notably more varied than anyone else".
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:52 No.12438788
    true they did kinda stick to the big stick pointy end methidology and didnt develop it much further...much like another sword that could have been more promising..

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:56 No.12438805
         File1287042961.jpg-(56 KB, 900x728, 2008040218.jpg)
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    My favorite spear or pole weapon by far is the Japanese Jumonji-yari. Their other weapons are overshadowed by the Katana, but I think the most beautiful weapon the Japanese made is that spear, especially with red lacquered wood.

    Sort of like a pike in utility and aesthetic appeal, up there on my list of favorite weapons with the Chinese Ji halberd.

    I'm really happy to see an intelligent weapon thread on /tg/ that didn't devolve into essentially Whites vs Asians again. The katana is an interestingly nuanced weapon with a wide variety of designs, but it's also very divisive these days. The fact is that a curved, cutting sword in one country will do about the same thing as a curved, cutting sword in another country made with the same materials. The differences are too small to definitively say one sword is inferior to another, I think.

    Besides, since I like spears, swords aren't such a big deal to me.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:56 No.12438810
         File1287042997.jpg-(76 KB, 690x636, daggeraxe.jpg)
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    Chinese dagger axe from... 200BC or so
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:57 No.12438814
         File1287043027.jpg-(86 KB, 630x440, Wat.jpg)
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    ...That's the complete opposite of the point I was trying to make. They innovated as much as anyone else.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)03:59 No.12438829
    Oh god those things. Those things are hilarious. I've always wanted to see one in action in like a movie or something.

    Jumonji yari are awesome.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:01 No.12438840
    Amtgardfag again.
    yeah poles rule our stickjocks like to remind us that:
    'poles are'nt people'
    a weapon that you cant get close to, with 2 handed leverage,quick,accurate, slash/stab/bash/trip
    fucking hax weapon
    <3 poles
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:01 No.12438844
    Rather I think you should say they innovated as much as was necessary for their environment and geographical region.

    If the Japanese had been located on the mainland, they'd simply have developed differently.

    But yeah, with swords and spears the Japanese actually did have a wide variety of designs; the differences were just much more subtle and understated than in other places.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:01 No.12438846
    >I'm really happy to see an intelligent weapon thread on /tg/ that didn't devolve into essentially Whites vs Asians again.

    I'm surprised nobody posted katanavsbroadsword.gif.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:02 No.12438847
    took me a second to get you picture.
    but its lol worthy
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:04 No.12438859
    It's a pretty awesome weapon. The Chinese definitely knew the value of having good war picks.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:06 No.12438872
    Yeah, those things are pretty awesome, and rarely get enough love.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:06 No.12438875

    were they the first to use such polearms?

    I don't recall any other BC civilizatins using long hafted weapons that are made for swinging
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:06 No.12438878
    Perhaps they might have, but they still innovated quite a bit more than they get credit for. Indeed, it's really *only* relatively subtle innovation with their swords. When it comes to pole weapons, bows and arrows, and even the matchlock guns they got from Europe (they created devices to keep rain off of burning match cords and actually solved the flaw with the snapping matchlock where the impact against the pan would extinguish the match), the innovations become much more immediately visible.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:08 No.12438886
         File1287043693.jpg-(56 KB, 324x432, sca1.jpg)
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    SCA Armorer's guild member here to answer any questions.

    Also ; breastplates do not extend past the first floating rib. This is around the belly button.

    The historical interior diameter of chainmail is over half an inch.

    The invention of firearms did not automatically remove plate armor from the battle field. It wasn't until the invention of the musket that guns were routinely capable of piercing armor. For some time, you had fully armored warriors walking around with black powder pistols.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:08 No.12438887
    The only times I remember jumonji-yari being particularly prominent in media is in both Samurai Warriors and Sengoku Basara, both times used by Sanada Yukimura. In the former he just has one as his main weapon, in the utter batshit insanity of the latter he fucking dual wields a PAIR of the things.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:09 No.12438894
    >For some time, you had fully armored warriors walking around with black powder pistols.

    These were the curaissiers, were they not?
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:10 No.12438901
         File1287043824.gif-(65 KB, 223x322, 01.gif)
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    Another awesome looking, but Holy fuck long blade Yari.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:11 No.12438904

    what are the merits of lamellar armor
    is it functionally the same as brigandine?
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:11 No.12438905
    what hurts more getting hit while wearing plate or chain?
    since you guys go balls-to-the-wall swinging rebar and shit. im curious
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:12 No.12438913
         File1287043926.jpg-(34 KB, 600x600, HW2152Close-yari.jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:12 No.12438919
    >Holy fuck Long Blade Yari
    is right, you could spit a horse with that thing.
    id be worryed tha the blade would snap
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:12 No.12438920
         File1287043958.jpg-(36 KB, 555x576, 20090606_5856f586640a53ca2306o(...).jpg)
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    Better pic
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:14 No.12438932
         File1287044079.jpg-(138 KB, 403x276, 8d8abfed4ae4cb30a6f58fd8dbe2d3(...).jpg)
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    higher res of the decor on it. Im a sucker for ordnate weapons.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:14 No.12438933
         File1287044080.jpg-(163 KB, 878x586, WGP-09_Cuirassiers_box_cover.jpg)
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    And they were fucking scary. Can you imagine these fuckers barrelling towards you guns blazing?

    Pic also /tg/ related
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:20 No.12438954
    >Can you imagine these fuckers barrelling towards you guns blazing?

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:21 No.12438957

    Armorsmiths used to shoot breastplates with a pistol, which would leave a dent. People would look for that dent when they were buying armor.

    It depends on the type of brigandine. It would be most similar to pocket brig.

    It's more similar to scale mail, it's just larger metal plates laced together with cord, whereas scale mail's rung together with mail rings. I suppose this means it would be easier to repair if you get a plate knocked out.

    Chain. It doesn't do much to take the bite out of strikes. I bruise under my chain all the time.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:23 No.12438967
    Huh, here's an interesting set of quick videos. Guy with a bokken against a guy with...whatever the naginata equivalent of a bokken is called in moonspeak.

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:25 No.12438974
         File1287044701.jpg-(46 KB, 350x420, Musketeer.jpg)
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    Nah, Brigandine are less maintainance-intensive and take shapes more easily. All those strings holding lamellar armour have to be constantly checked and replaced while the rivet simply hold.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:26 No.12438978
    Chainmail: Turning Slashing damage into Bludgeoning damage since the 4th century!
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:30 No.12438999
    Armour never did go obsolete in the sense it wasn't capable of stopping bullets. It went obsolete because you couldn't manufacture it for an entire army and you were better off using that skill and labour to make more guns.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:34 No.12439027

    Huh, I would have thought the dude with the polearm would win in a 1 on 1 fight, but katana-man won that handily.

    I suppose polearms were better at fighting in formation, yes?
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:35 No.12439029
    totally not how i use a pole. but whatev' Mr.Katana does a good job.
    srsly dont think Mr. Naginata knows what the fuck he is doing through
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:37 No.12439042

    Don't make the mistake of extrapolating from just one fight. Odds are, the katana-guy is just better than the naginata-guy.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:38 No.12439057
    They generally were better at formation, but to be fair I thiiink that last one went to the naginata dude. Was surprised to see the katana dude find a way around the naginata and decisively strike in the second, though.

    This next one I hesitate somewhat to post here because it could risk flames, but this thread is close to its end anyway, so what the fuck. This is Bokken vs. Longsword Waster.

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:39 No.12439063
    Watching it over a few times, the Naginate never backs up after the Katana parryes the attack which puts another 5 feet inbetween you and your target. He doesnt disable the legs(rediculsously easy to hit) not does he do any folow through, as the katana does.
    Dunno cant say i have fought a 1 vs1 match like tha ever. but i could teach Naginata a few hundred things
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:41 No.12439069
         File1287045667.jpg-(6 KB, 200x244, Kalari-Urumi.jpg)
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    Now this is a scary weapon.
    For both parties.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:41 No.12439071

    holy balls I didn't know official kendo tournaments let you use two swords
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:42 No.12439077
    I've seen some kata for two shinai.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:43 No.12439082
    Indeed. Though I've always been rather fond of the Hindi word for it: "Aara". "Urumi" is its Malaysian name, btw. Still, a rather scary weapon indeed.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:45 No.12439095

    70 year old woman with naginata against nito kendo.


    Couple dudes screwing around with isshi jiai before practice I think.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:51 No.12439125
    the latter of these videos is a good fight imo they both know that they are doing
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)04:59 No.12439176

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:01 No.12439190
    I think I'm falling in love with those Japanese polearms.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:03 No.12439207
         File1287047024.jpg-(639 KB, 1800x1215, Zeughaus_.jpg)
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    >It went obsolete because you couldn't manufacture it for an entire army

    Come to Europe, see that we could.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:06 No.12439231
    he Kendoka Really knows his shit, those downward strikes with the Shinai got in every time.but thahs a good video to illustrate how range with polearms can be a real bitch. Dont know much about Kendo scoring so im not sure on who won
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:07 No.12439232
    I think he ment to say that it wasn't as expensive.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:09 No.12439249
    I love how they go crazy towards the end in the second vid. Hilarious yet awesome.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:10 No.12439253
         File1287047440.png-(133 KB, 166x369, Polish_Horseman's_picks_from_X(...).png)
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    I dunno if anyone mentioned horseman's pick. It was one of the most useful weapons against armored enemies. It usually was used to hit them in the head. No helmets could protect against that. Only this weapon had one big downside. It was pretty much one hit weapon because after the kill it was very hard to remove it from enemy head.

    Also as an ex-weeaboo I know how hard it is for some people to accept the fact that katanas are medicore weapons.

    Furthermore katana tip armor-piercing ability is just another myth. I've seen some documentary about melee weapons on Discovery where they tested it's "armor-piercing tip" and it simply didn't do shit (later I've read some more stuff about it and it was again confirmed).
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:12 No.12439267

    That was a demonstration match, so they're just going until the time is up. Unfortunately in most cases the naginataka isn't allowed to use both ends of the naginata in shiai like that; but it is very interesting when those restrictions are taken off with people who are members of older schools. Then you see the back end of the naginata being brought into play more frequently to parry and close when hitting the legs and cutting towards the chest. (couldn't find any video of it, but I get to watch it in person often enough living where I do.) You'd see a lot more of the naginata person opening up with the blade almost on the ground, letting the person with the sword close in and basically impale themselves by just raising the blade etc.


    Think this is probably at a high school.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:14 No.12439279

    The tip on the katana still varies an awful lot, there are more than a few examples of them being about as pointy on the end as a lot of western blades. Only issue with those ones is that the tips tended to break off when slashing. Won't dispute that they were really just generic all rounders though.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:14 No.12439280
         File1287047680.jpg-(12 KB, 166x369, Horseman's picks.jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:15 No.12439288
    Naginata dude would have won on points simply because he got more touches in, but I agree--it was a good effort on the kendoka to get in the hits he did.

    That's not really the problem on here. Most of us have been trying to argue not that the katana is a super awesome all-powerful weapon, but rather that it isn't the shit tier worthless piece of garbage it gets claimed as on /tg/ a lot. The katana's tip shouldn't work against a solid piece of plate, naturally (that R. Lee Ermey thing doesn't count--yes, you saw penetration, but it wasn't nearly enough to hurt somebody through padding). But against chain, with an o-kissaki? I dunno, that tip looks like it might actually do the job.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:18 No.12439307
    Thats pretty much how i open up my fights 70% of the time, with the tip on th ground, to run them through as they advance.
    Though one of the drawbscks to poles you loose any and all advantage you had once the opponet picks up a sheild. not rally any good video's of poles getting rolled on jewtube. but it takes some squirly polework to get by a sheild with a pole
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:21 No.12439324

    If said shield doesn't cover the legs too well, a glaive or naginata still has a nice advantage there, since the main target is mostly uncovered, and attempts to block it tend to leave the opponent off balance.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:23 No.12439333

    Also, bayonets.
    >> Dorn 10/14/10(Thu)05:26 No.12439358
    I know I'm late to the party, but just to add another random fact out there, this was why Medieval knights (especially in the earlier periods of chainmail) would wear a thick set of padded cloth armour underneath the chain. A slash from a sword might not break the chain, but the force was often still enough to break bone, so padding was used to soften the impact. So yeah, if it hasn't already been put to bed, a hammer/mace on chainmail will still be devastating.

    The surcoat as you see in >>12435536 was also a useful "invention" for armour - crusaders lifted the idea once they got to the Middle East, as the inhabitants there were already using fabrics like that over armour to keep the intense heat and sun from turning their metal armour into (often literally) an oven. It also served the useful purpose of allowing a western knight to show off his heraldry, so they took it back to Europe with them, where it eventually became the norm.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:27 No.12439364
    Here's a couple more fighty vids. One I've posted before, back in the "Rapier vs. Katana" thread. Ironically though there's no katana in this; it's Rapier vs. Longsword.


    The other is one of the same two dudes, but this time a parrying dagger gets into the mix.

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:30 No.12439375
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    The decrease in sword quality was of course due to the fact that demand for swords of quality wasn't very high, given that it was peacetime and the Tokuwaga pretty much had a stranglehold on everything. This era also saw the rise of formalized ideals about Bushido - formalized rituals regarding seppuku, the role of the samurai, the importance of death, and the inclusion of Zen philosophy all start to coalesce in the Tokuwaga era - again, because in an era of peace it was increasingly necessary for a warrior class to somehow rationalize or justify their existence, given that they weren't fighting.

    In previous eras it would have been madness to suggest a samurai consider death before deserting his post - plenty of historical tales from places like the Tale of the Heike show samurai willing to cut and run against poor odds.

    It is allowed in higher level matches, but is rarely taught at the basic levels simply because it's really hard to learn Nito. You need to be equally proficient with both hands to really gain any sort of advantage, and really most of the advantage is if the other guy is unfamiliar with how to handle two swords.

    Naginata-do is at a bit of an institutional disadvantage because I believe cross-discipline matches will only allow kendo-valid targets; in Naginata-do striking at the ankles is an important tactic (see pic), but under kendo rules this would not constitute a point. I'm not really sure why it would be that way, but I suppose it might have to do with perhaps trying to make a more level playing field for the kendoka.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:30 No.12439377
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    Whilst these guys are mostly experimenting (they do know what they are doing though, the spear guy learns that the spear gets knocked away too easy on overly long pool-cueing attacks and the swordsman knows to rush and manages to do so at points but they're both experienced fighters in other weapons), the traditional method for spear vs shield is stab low, stab high. either you get through due to speed or you wear down the guy with a shield as moving them about, even light ones and having the force in the block to successfully deflect to shot rather than have it push the shield out of the way, is very tiring.

    Spears are essentially hobbled by safety rules in a lot of things, theres a hell of a lot more that can be done with them if say, stabbing to the foot is allowed. after all, kill shots are not always required, sometimes its better to wound and maim to allow for killing after that.

    Actually thats worth repeating, one shot kills are not always required. And by the surprisingly low casualty counts for most battles involving such weapons (with most kills being in the rout) its safe to assume that one-hit-kill shots are somewhat rare. Battlefield grave finds such as the Visby and Towton graves also indicate a lot of limb wounds.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:31 No.12439381
    oh definitly, but once you take the legs out of a sheild they go into what we call 'turtiling' where they drop to their knee's and now they are just a sheild with a head as they hide behind the sheild. granted ill leg sheilds and leave them there to bleed out/hobble after me.but you have to ger danger close to really get a definitive kill in. plus they like to block with the sheild and run up the haft of the pole and slice and dice. keeping your range and waiting for an opening is your best bet make, feint and make them open up their sheild, are a few of the things i do to get around sheilds.
    nasty combination : sheild wall+ poles behind, we have all seen it in the movies but you get to see how brutally effective it is when your one of 300 people fighting 300 people.
    >300 people fighting 300 people.
    Reasons i love Amtgard
    the feeling is like no other
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:32 No.12439385

    And a short clip demonstrating usage (and counter) of a kusari-gama.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:32 No.12439386
    Hitting guys with shields in the legs was apparently simply what was done around the time of Hastings. Supposedly they found that 80% of all the wounds between the infantry were to the legs, because that was the only way you could realistically hurt someone with a shield, a hauberk and a helmet in the press of battle. Cut out their legs, they'll either be trampled to death or you can finish them off later.
    Regarding the polearm thing, once you give the swordsman a shield, it's more of an even fight in my opinion, and much more interesting to watch.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:33 No.12439392

    Huh, I've never seen a bayonet-based martial art before. It makes sense of course that they would exist. They'd certainly be a lot more useful than sword training from about 1700-onwards.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:33 No.12439393

    Actually, in isshijiai both naginata and kendoka are allowed to score on the sune. Only thing is that pretty much nobody ever bothers keeping score in those matches since they're really for entertainment value more than anything else.

    And as far as nito goes, in kendo, while it is uncommon you can start learning it right off the bat, but you're more than likely going to just get pounded over and over for years (more so than anyone sticking to chudan or even jodan) before you get even half decent with it. Guys usually start nito around 3dan.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:35 No.12439401
    Pretty much nailed it. It's still ironic though that the focus on the sword in Japanese culture coincided with a time of waning in the general quality of swordcraft due to lack of wartime need.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:37 No.12439413

    With naginata, hitting guys in the legs is pretty much just what you do regardless of what the other person is holding...if you're using naginata of the shorter variety anyway.


    Weaboo getting his ass handed to him by some 1st year student.


    My school has a kusarigama school associated with it, the joke is that if you can dodge a ball you can dodge a ball with some chain on it.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:38 No.12439418
    Jukendo became big in the late Meiji and Taisho era, I believe, as with the modernization of the Japanese military came the use of the modern weapons of the time, which included the bayonet.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:38 No.12439420

    Not a Kendoka, but my experience with the military sabre is that going for the legs with a non-polearm is tantamount to suicide in any situation where your opponent knows what he's doing (and since you don't know the skill of your opponent before you fight him, you always gotta assume that's the case).

    Sure, I might go for a hit there if I realize his lower guard sucks or he overextends himself in a thrust, but I'd never consider legs my primary target area. I assume that's the same for Kendo.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:40 No.12439431
    I hate it when people assume you can get into a knife fight. The only reason you'd use a knife in a modern setting is to cut and run. You can't recover from a stab wound as fast as they do in movies. Hell, you don't recover. Remember kids; if someone pulls a knife, get the fuck out of there, because chances are you'll be the one who ends up dead, regardless of martial arts or any of that shit.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:41 No.12439433
    Pretty much, though it's still an effective target if you do get the opportunity. Femoral artery severed = very quick death.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:41 No.12439436

    Yes, it is about the same for kendo, and to be honest, having done saber fencing for a semester in college, it's probably a worse idea for the kendo guy to try going for the legs. With the fencing equipment you've actually got a lot more flexibility in terms of how it lets you move... with kendogu...not so much. You'd basically be offering the back of your head to someone.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:42 No.12439442
    makes sense, going for a leg opens up your shoulder/back and head depending all of which you dont want to get hit in if you have to get hit
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:42 No.12439443

    Not so much ironic, rather exemplary of supply and demand. There were a lot more samurai around during the Tokugawa period once they had been turned into glorified pencilpushers, so demand for swords went up while the need for them to be combat-worthy went down.

    Cue clever merchants and smiths suddenly churning out low-grade, high-ornament katanas.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:43 No.12439446

    Points in kendo are awarded by an experienced judge/referee (the guy you see adjucating). Doesn't seem like any points were awarded (the judge would raise his corresponding arm or flag), so it was either a sparring match or a draw. Points in kendo aren't based on number of touches, but rather solid hits that conform to proper form are the only hits that count pointwise. Most matches are to the first two points by either side and usually have a time limit of two to three minutes.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:44 No.12439450
    yeah knife fights are ugly.
    Rule one of knife fights
    Winner Bleeds
    Losers Gush
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:45 No.12439456

    Exactly, and if your opponent likes the high guards, all he needs to do is drop that motherfucker on your head as you try to hit his thighs.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:46 No.12439458

    Typically they don't have the judges awarding points for those kinds of matches. They're just there to keep it from getting dangerous/call the time/look good.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:46 No.12439459
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    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:46 No.12439460
    is the Men worth more points out of curiosity or is it the same as the arms and chest?
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:47 No.12439463

    All points are equal.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:47 No.12439464
    scratch that,make that Rule 2

    Rule 1: Dont get into a knife fight
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:47 No.12439466
    I think all of you could learn a thing or two from this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neSjLgV8YII&feature=related
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:48 No.12439470
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    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:49 No.12439472

    The tsuki (throat) is also a valid target in some matches, although I believe it is discouraged at lower levels - the throat stab motion can result in serious injury if you are off-target.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:50 No.12439480

    Generally speaking they don't allow tsuki in tournaments until 1dan.

    Some places will have students learning it immediately though, since the more they practice, the better they'll be at not screwing up and nailing someone right in the throat.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:51 No.12439483
    >This era also saw the rise of formalized ideals about Bushido - formalized rituals regarding seppuku, the role of the samurai, the importance of death, and the inclusion of Zen philosophy all start to coalesce in the Tokuwaga era - again, because in an era of peace it was increasingly necessary for a warrior class to somehow rationalize or justify their existence, given that they weren't fighting.

    Actually the Idea they had was that the Samurai were supposed to lead and educate the other classes. I've forgotten what the Japanese term was, but they considered themselve to be the people of the brush and the sword, sort of like the ages that preceded it they had been the people of the bow and the horse.

    Bushido only became popular within the last hundred years or so. It's like the current shape of muslim extremism, which is the first movement in the arab world that every acutally demanded religious law to dominate state affairs completely.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:53 No.12439494

    In my MMA fencing group, we allow throat strikes (MMA not being as weighed down by rules as Kendo ec. yet), but we also enforce the use of steel gorgets underneath the fencing mask. The latter may have a kevlar bib, but that's hardly enough to stop a kilogram of spring steel at full thrust.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:54 No.12439498

    Also, munetsuki (thrust to the chest) used to be a valid point when jodan players were a lot more common. These days you can still do it (technically) to set up for another waza, but you may be penalized for it depending on the judges mood.

    Naginatado used to allow the same thing, only it was a thrust to the chest using the back end of the naginata. It was supposedly taken out for a combination of safety reasons, and the fact that it wasn't unheard of for the armor to be broken by a hit like that. (I'd rather not wind up having to buy a brand new do because someone couldn't hold back a little.)
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:54 No.12439499

    It usually ends with one guy getting rushed and stabbed. Most people don't even know the other guy has a knife, since they won't give you time to draw before they slam you and slit your throat. If you go out with a knife, willing to use it, then you'll probably end up dead or in jail.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)05:58 No.12439518
    yeah i have been rocked in the adamas apple a few times. really ruins your day,so dies getting stabbed in the eye. we try and generally avoid the head...
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:00 No.12439524

    *Generally speaking* the kendo men is adequate to keep your throat from getting pounded, and the majority of the time even if your opponent misses, the shinai hits the flap and is directed off to the side of your head. Sometimes though...shit happens. Like when you get blasted in the crotch the second a match starts.

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:00 No.12439528
    Heavier plate armor was for things like jousts or parades, where they didn't really need to be mobile or the like.

    A joust could be deadly if you were in a good suit of plate armor, so you used something that you'd never actually wear into battle, something that *would* keep you alive at the cost of never being useful for anything other than a joust.

    Parade armor was made just so you'd look badass coming home on the victory parade.

    Katana's are pretty looking swords though, with the hamon on them, they were very nice to look at, but people forget that almost all samurai warfare was carried out with spears or bows, very few actually used their swords as anything more than a status symbol and sidearm.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:03 No.12439539
    Chinese invented stirrups in the AD periods, the technology just didn't migrate well.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:06 No.12439559

    Against a single person doing that it shouldn't be that hard to bait them out of it.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:07 No.12439565
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:10 No.12439585
    Granted you should always wear a cup, but it was a freak accident, considering stabs are illegal in kendo.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:11 No.12439588
    from my experiance, once they go down they go in to 'Full Defense" just because they know that they have no openings so its tricky to get them to open up. Tricky but do-able
    Or under the sheild to the other leg and the femoral artery, good night...Knight
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:12 No.12439595
    Ohhhhh, i didnt know that.
    Explanes why they dont wear a cup.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:14 No.12439607

    FYI thrusts are legal in kendo, they just don't get scored unless they're to the throat.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:15 No.12439613
    Thank you for correcting me.

    Captcha: bromil respects
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:15 No.12439617

    If they are wearing maille, then glaiving their femoral artery will be impossible, since most maille protects the crotch area and the thighs.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:19 No.12439634

    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:22 No.12439646
    I was assuming unarmored fighting.i apologise for the miscomunication.
    armored? Chop down on their sheild shoulder like Fist of the north star. is your suing a glaive or a sililarly bladed weapon the shield will be splinters and their arm is usleless mush due to you having the 'high ground' extra force'
    Least thats what i would do
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:23 No.12439649
    i <3 you, so much
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:23 No.12439654
    fuuuu typing fail. my bad
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:25 No.12439660

    Yeah, the glaive is a bastard of a weapon to fight. I'd say that the best weapon agains a soldier armed with a glaive is either a bastard sword, a spear or a lance.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:27 No.12439671
    The armour wieght issues is probabley what gets me most annoyed, in the Warhammer RP the "Encumberance" system has to be the one thing I actually hate about the system.

    Encumberance is meant to be a combination of an items wieght and its size which in principle sounds like a good idea but in execution its retarded.

    A character can mange an encumberance 10x their strength. While a lot of items seem to have an unreasonable amount of enc the problems don't really start until you get to armour. Full plate armour has an encumberance of 395, combine this with a sword and a shield you are looking at 495. You will also suffer at least -10 to you agility as well, perhaps more penalties if you are over encumbered. You can just tell that the rules have been written to conform to the old "If a knight falls down he can't get back up." stereotype.

    The rules just don't take into account that when you are wearing armour as opposed to carrying it its encumberance should be lower and that manufacturing and wearing armour that turned you into a clumcy hulking mess is fucking stupid.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:27 No.12439673

    Oh, and I forgot; the enemy might use his shield to protect his arm, using his blade to lunge at you. Of course, that is assuming that you haven't used that wonderful hook to take it away from him, which is what I would do.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:28 No.12439675
    Someone waaaaay up there said something about hitting with the heavy pommel on your sword. See this vid for why not:


    And I've looked at a bunch of other stuff from him too. He seems to make sensible points, at least to the untrained ear.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:32 No.12439702
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    >either a bastard sword, a spear or a lance.

    So the 3 most common weapons?

    The glaive is good but not that great. The large bladed types of spear like the partizan work just as well for its role, and against anything reasonably armoured, the halberd and similar outclass it.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:36 No.12439717
    pommel to the ground, use the haft to block. step back for 'breathing room'. strike. i use my haft as a sheild all the time as long as you can see it coming you can deflect blows pretty well. But its not a fool-proof guard by any means.
    Sword and Board is a mean combination...probally why it was so popular. i could go into Fight Mechanics for hours on each weapon all have their merits, i just prefer the pole. I have seen one unarmored Sword and Board take 25-30 people with out getting wounded. just like i have seen a Dagger roll an entire Sheild wall. anything can happen, yo
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:43 No.12439740

    It's just that a lance is generally a horse-mounted weapon, and the glaive is made for stopping cavalry charges, and I made a mistake with the bastard sword thing. I meant great sword.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:44 No.12439744

    He's talking about Dark Ages swords, not longswords.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)06:54 No.12439766
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    >the glaive is made for stopping cavalry charges

    No, this is a bit of a misconception. Along with most polearms, they are not made for stopping cavalry charges. They lack the reach to effectively combat cavalry or ward off horses with a hedgehog's worth of points. Warding off cavalry was better left to fieldworks such as trenches, stakes, even a field full of potholes. Anything to actually break the impetus of a charge. After that, the next most effective tools are longspears (later; pikes) and discipline. Longspears (like spears, but over 12 feet in length) were sufficiently lengthy to out-reach lances and due to the small spear point, could be deployed with multiple ranks concentrating their weapons The Scots used them to good effect on the English through most of the medieval era for instance. Polearms like the glaive are end-heavy and are unsuitable for ranks other than the front to engage with.

    They're simply a good general purpose infantry weapon. They won't punch through metal armour or concentrate enough force to regularly deliver concussive force on a level to break a person through their armour, but will cleave apart a man in no or fabric based armour. Which is good enough most of the time.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)07:09 No.12439815
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    >great sword.

    Not a particularly common weapon, even less so on the battlefield. Its heyday was in the early renaissance being wielded by guards of banners and officers. Its a vicious weapon, but its not a front line weapon by any means. Its good enough to outreach the single handed short swords and daggers used in the brawling conditions of pike blocks that have got past the push, and in such conditions its an intimidating weapon that can be used to great effect in such circumstances. But on the front line its outreached and out performed by polearms. And contrary to popular belief, no, they can't chop the heads of pikes and other hafted weapons as the hafts are most commonly made of ash, which is incredibly tough for its weight.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)07:18 No.12439850
    >>12439766 Warding off cavalry was better left to

    A mutherfuckin' scheltron, yo. Anyone who says otherwise is a goddamned liar.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)08:25 No.12440088
    Nitto Ryu style kendo, short sword in one hand, long sword in other.

    Frequently stated that "power is in your left hand and precision your right, by seperating the two hands you gain power for your short sword but lose precision, and lose power for your long sword but reinforce precision" Lots of people don't like fighting against it because it's tricky as fuck. Short sword is used primarily to distract or parry, but can score points.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)08:47 No.12440173

    Sounds similar to some Spanish and French styles of rapier & parrying dagger fighting.

    Interestingly, some schools taught that the dagger should be the main killing weapon (as it allows for more precise strikes and is better in a grapple), with the sword mainly used for blocking and as a diversion.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)08:49 No.12440180
    Sadly he's wrong about pommels in this case
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)08:50 No.12440185
    The sword is used for frighteningly fast powerful blows, the dagger is used to tie up the weapon usually. Depends on the kendoka in question though.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)08:56 No.12440210

    He's a historian who specializes in dark ages Europe and earlier. He's automatically assumed that, because nearly all pommels he's familiar with aren't counter-balances to the blade, that it was rare for pommels to counter-balance the blade. In truth, apart from the pommels in the particular places and times he's familiar with, most pommels DO act as a counter-balance.

    So yeah, he's not exactly wrong, just overly focused on his own narrow areas of expertise.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)10:13 No.12440579

    he usually speaks about one handed swords. And in that case the pommel rarely is a counterbalance.
    >> Anonymous 10/14/10(Thu)10:16 No.12440607
    >>12440579 he usually speaks about one handed swords. And in that case the pommel rarely is a counterbalance.

    Apart from pretty much every one-handed sword made in Europe in the last 600 years or so

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