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  • File : 1281144777.jpg-(10 KB, 449x265, post-900sledge[1].jpg)
    10 KB Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:32 No.11560329  
    D&D, any edition, only holds up until you realize the party thief can easily be replaced by a 20 pound sledgehammer and some spikes.

    Need to foil a trap? Spring it at range with a 20 pound sledge.
    Open a door? Break it open with a 20 pound sledge.
    unlock a chest? Just jam a spike into the hinge and hit it with a 20 pound sledge.
    Need to pick a pocket? why bother, just hit them with a 20 pound sledge then rifle their pockets while they are out cold.
    need to disrupt a perfectly balanced counterweight? hammer throw a 20 lb sledge at it.

    Meet your new party thief, the 20 lb sledge.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:35 No.11560357
    The 10 pound sledge is more versatile than your 20 pound dead weight could ever be.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:35 No.11560362
    need any amount of subtlety? Use a 20 lb...oh, wait.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:35 No.11560367
    what about climbing a wall?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:36 No.11560370
    But can a 20lb sledge Love? Can you have witty banter with it, without seeming insane? Can it do all that with a top hat and monocle?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:36 No.11560379
    hammer some spikes into it with the 20 lb. sledge.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:36 No.11560380

    break it down
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:37 No.11560383
    20 lbs. Sledgehammers have terrible Streetwise scores.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:37 No.11560386
    Ten pounders are banned in my campaigns. Fucking overpowered pieces of shit.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:37 No.11560387
    Yes yes yes yes
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:37 No.11560389
    butthurt thief fag
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:37 No.11560395
    what if you need to listen at a door ?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:38 No.11560402
    Stop with your fucking edition warring
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:38 No.11560404
    when streetwise fails, blunt force trauma prevails
    >> Nasty Sunny Beam 08/06/10(Fri)21:38 No.11560410
    Quite true OP, quite true.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:38 No.11560420
    >implying rogues are the only ones who listen at doors
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:39 No.11560423
    Any 20 pound sledge that can't isn't worthy of the task.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:39 No.11560424
    Why listen at a door when you can instead listen at an open window? again 20 lb sledge comes through for you.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:39 No.11560425
    Then you listen at the fucking door, retard

    That's not the thiefs job
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:39 No.11560428
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    All the proof I needed
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:39 No.11560429
    OP said any edition
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:41 No.11560445
    Can a 20 pound sledge perform diplomacy checks
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:41 No.11560449
    Why would you need a thief to listen at a door?

    They don't even have any abilities to make them good at it
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:41 No.11560454

    Yes. You'd be surprised how readily people are willing to agree with someone holding a 20 pound sledgehammer.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:42 No.11560471
    threatening someone with massive head trauma is very diplomatic.

    besides, that's the bard's job. If there's one thing a 20 lb sledge can't do, its sing.
    >> Sharktopus !ugYMtSf7A. 08/06/10(Fri)21:42 No.11560472
    Why perform diplomacy when you can beat them with a 20lb sledge til they tell you what you want to know.
    Either that or use intimidate
    >Tell me or i beat you with my sledgeco. 20lb sledge
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:43 No.11560479

    There was a time in D&D that only thieves could listen at doors.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:44 No.11560489

    Nah, but my bard can.

    Plus if you fail diplomacy you can fix it all with the sledgehammer.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:44 No.11560501
    That's dumb.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:45 No.11560511
    in that case
    this is the best solution. no more door
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:45 No.11560517
         File1281145552.jpg-(91 KB, 460x276, SLEDGE.jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:46 No.11560520

    Yeah, back when it was good.
    >> P !!ejI/2vCO8dC 08/06/10(Fri)21:47 No.11560530
    Because a Fighter can't physically put his ear against a door?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:48 No.11560548
    Hey guys, there's a few magical traps here.

    Oh, wait, none of us can see them.
    Hi there TPK!
    >> Sharktopus !ugYMtSf7A. 08/06/10(Fri)21:48 No.11560550
    I hate to admit it, but fighters really aren't that smart.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:49 No.11560556
    That’s it. I’m sick of all this “Masterwork 20 Pound Sledge” bullshit that’s going on in the d20 system right now. Thieves deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

    I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine thief from the gypsies for 2,400,000 rubles (that’s about $20,000) and have been practicing with her for almost 2 years now. She can pick slabs of solid steel open.

    Gypsy trainers spend years working on a single thief and run it through exercises up to a million times to produce the finest thieves known to mankind.

    Thieves are thrice as sharp as 20 pound sledges and thrice as sexy for that matter too. Anything a 20 pound sledge can open, a thief can open better. I’m pretty sure a thief could easily break into the highest-security vaults with a simple twist of the wrist.

    Ever wonder why medieval banks never bothered conquering the gypsies? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the sneaky gypsies and their thieves of mass theft. Even in the Great Depression, bank repo men targeted the thieves first because their stealing power was feared and respected.

    So what am I saying? Thieves are simply the best lockbreakers that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for thieves:

    (One-Handed Exotic Human)

    1d12 Damage
    19-20 x4 Crit
    +2 against doors and locks
    Counts as Masterwork

    (Two-Handed Exotic Human)

    2d10 Damage
    17-20 x4 Crit
    +5 against doors and locks
    Counts as Masterwork

    Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of thieves in real life, don’t you think?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:50 No.11560573
    20 pound sledge is always willing to go first at any suspected door. You just gotta give him a little throw first.

    20 pound sledge is a team player and will never steal from the other party members.
    >> Sharktopus !ugYMtSf7A. 08/06/10(Fri)21:51 No.11560584
    Wow, this copypasta really can be editied to fit ANY requirement................creepy
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:52 No.11560600
    I'll admit it, I lol'd.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:53 No.11560617

    Well played good sir.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:53 No.11560620
    best use of that I've ever seen.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:54 No.11560626
    what do i need sledge for, if I'm a warrior and carry a warhammer with me all the time?
    I break chests and boxes with it all the time!
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:54 No.11560629
    I lost it at "Thieves of mass theft"
    Good show, sir, good show.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:55 No.11560637
    See that's ok because you are already in a committed relationship with the 20 lb sledge's sexy cousins. They do the same work plus bash monsters besides. It's alright.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:55 No.11560641
    You are mistaken and also dumb
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:57 No.11560658
    Use a silenced hammer.

    >Kissinger, downers
    That's right, 20lb. sledges make great negotiators!
    >> Sharktopus !ugYMtSf7A. 08/06/10(Fri)21:57 No.11560662
    .......Well though i may not agree with what you just said i'll defend to the death your right to say it.

    I may be thinking of barbarians however. Theyre both equally "smash first ask questions later" in my experience.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:58 No.11560666

    just make it a 40 pound sledge and you don't need diplomacy
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:59 No.11560678
    No, fighters are usually smart

    A lot of fighters use combat expertise, which requires at least 13 int

    And mine has 16

    You probably are thinking of barbarians, which is why you are mistaken
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)21:59 No.11560683
    in the land of the 20 pound sledges, the 40 lb sledge is king.
    >> Sharktopus !ugYMtSf7A. 08/06/10(Fri)22:01 No.11560703
    Aaaah yes, combat expertise. My fighter has that, I don't know how i missed that flaw in my own logic.
    Curses, 10 points from griffindor it seems
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:04 No.11560730
    Fighters generally fill the role of "Intelligent combatant" where as barbarians are "dumb muscle"

    Fighter is a classic choice for party leader as well
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:04 No.11560738
    20 lb sledges, also known as Mauls, work well with fighter feats as well. Its like a fighter is wielding a thief with every swing!
    >> Sharktopus !ugYMtSf7A. 08/06/10(Fri)22:05 No.11560747
    ........tell me more. Its good hearing other people's experience with fighters, it'll give me some tips for future reference.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:08 No.11560774
    well for starters, what build have you got for your fighter so far?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:09 No.11560780
    My party has a fighter and a thief in it. It would be hilarious to see that
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:10 No.11560795
    Wait, guys, wait!

    What if a thief character uses a 20 pound sledge?

    ...Mother of God...Captcha says 1855 carcasses...
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:10 No.11560800
    Thats a point. Tell us how you'v set up your fighter and I guess we can tell you how to go with it.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:11 No.11560806
    Well, I'm playing a fighter in a game right now, with UNGODLY STATS. I am amazing at rolling.

    He has 16 intelligence, is the party leader, and (at this point) is the strongest member of the party, though once the mages get wicked, he'll fall behind.

    I play him as an unarmored 2-handed fighter, which is working pretty awesome so far.
    It's Pathfinder, and I took the 2-Handed fighter class features from the APG, which trades Armor training for some bonuses, which works for me, since he doesn't wear armor anyway

    He's actually depressed and an alcoholic, but everyone thinks that the drinking is a comedic device, so they're not worried.

    I also mentioned how awesome I am at rolling.
    At least two thirds of my rolls in that game were twenties.

    I did a bunch of badass things, like ripping open a golem and tearing out the gem that was animating it.
    Also running up a giant's axe and cutting his arm off at the elbow.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:11 No.11560810
    Thats because the ensuing explosion would take out a town
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:13 No.11560837
    the resulting explosion would make Hiroshima look like a wet firecracker.
    >> Sharktopus !ugYMtSf7A. 08/06/10(Fri)22:15 No.11560862
    I'm assuming your guy will have many more levels that mine:
    Lvl5 human fighter
    str16, dex12, con15, int13, wis13, cha13
    feats: endurance, diehard, quickdraw, combat expertise, powerattack, improved unarmed attack
    Sorta got him going as a heavy armoured fighter to make up for low hp. Longsword, heavysteel shield, fullplate. Recently got him an enchanted bastard sword, because DM told us we can pay to train in the proficiency rather than wait to level and select it as a feat.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:17 No.11560881
    >improved unarmed strike

    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:19 No.11560905
    Incase he gets disarmed so he can punch like the fist of the north star?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:20 No.11560917
    Why the fuck not?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:21 No.11560929
    Listen, friend, the answer is obvious.

    Use a 20 pound sledgehammer. That's all you'll ever need!
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:21 No.11560931
    Looks OK i guess. Combat expertise is always a must for fighters. Adding that onto your already huge AC though is a dick maneuvre i would love to see
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:22 No.11560937
    Level 4 human fighter
    Str 20
    Dex 17
    Con 18
    Int 16
    Wis 15
    Cha 17
    40 HP

    We're also using the "Defense Bonus" variant, so unarmored is actually viable

    Most of what I've accomplished has been through insanely good rolling
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:22 No.11560942
    >level 5

    Deep Slumber, he is now useless and going to be CDGed.
    >> WAIT A SEC....... Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:22 No.11560943
    Item familiar? intelligent item?
    I think I'm going to make one in the next game a join.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:23 No.11560956
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    I like this thread...
    >> Sharktopus !ugYMtSf7A. 08/06/10(Fri)22:24 No.11560967
    Its sickening how much better your character is. But then again, you're on pathfinder, im on faerun3.5. Dunno if it makes a difference or not, but whatever.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:24 No.11560971
         File1281147850.jpg-(8 KB, 192x256, Haitch2.jpg)
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    ...it really hits the nail on the head.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:24 No.11560975
         File1281147864.gif-(45 KB, 70x110, 27498_hammertime_gif.gif)
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    This many posts and no hammertime?

    I am disappoint, /tg/
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:24 No.11560977
    >Combat expertise is always a must for fighters. Adding that onto your already huge AC though is a dick maneuvre i would love to see


    "My high AC got higher" isn't a recipe for enemies missing you more, it's for them NOT ATTACKING YOU AT ALL AND RAPING THE REST OF YOUR PARTY BECAUSE YOU JUST MADE YOUR OFFENSE FAIL.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:25 No.11560997
    Pathfinder has something to do with it, what with the significant power boost for fighters

    There's also my rolling really really well
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:26 No.11561008
    No difference really. Sorry, you just suck at rolls
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:26 No.11561014
    Disregard him, he sucks cocks
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:27 No.11561020
    >really really well

    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:27 No.11561023
    Stealth and subtlety are apparently worthless. Why all that shit we teach to counter-terrorism teams about stealth, properly breaching without using a shotgun or a charge, effectively taking down unaware or hindered opponents as quickly as possible can all be done by a 20lb sledge. While we're at it, how about effective negotiation or intelligence gathering? 20lb sledge of course. Effectively finding ambushes and traps before they're sprung? 20lb sledge of course.

    OP, you're a fucking retard.
    >> Brokazaki !!GGO9kwAPCR4 08/06/10(Fri)22:27 No.11561026
    So for your stats you rolled two 18s, two 17s, a 16 and a 15, and you claim that like a third of your d20 rolls are 20s? Do you roll on the table? Has anyone become suspicious yet?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:28 No.11561037
    I think your guy is fairly well laid out so far. Trying to think what other feats he'll want at lvl6

    >scurviest appointed
    get scurvy, receive promotion
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:29 No.11561049
    Also, people still roll for stats? Amazing.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:29 No.11561054
    Pathfinder just made my 18 Str become 20 Str, really, but there are a few neat feats and class abilities too
    >> Sharktopus !ugYMtSf7A. 08/06/10(Fri)22:29 No.11561056
    I havent thought that far ahead myself actually...........its troubling
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:29 No.11561061
    >OP specifically said D&D
    >use modern day examples.
    >call op a retard.

    Yeah because our special forces routinely delve into the temple of elemental evil.
    >> Brokazaki !!GGO9kwAPCR4 08/06/10(Fri)22:30 No.11561069
    If you're used to heavily armored fighters running up to the enemy to protect their allies and then the DM just has them passing up your fighter to go attack the squishies, you're just stuck with a shit DM. They can meta game too, y'know.
    >> Brokazaki !!GGO9kwAPCR4 08/06/10(Fri)22:31 No.11561084
    Dude have you SEEN afghanistan?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:31 No.11561087
    20lb Sledge is a cool guy and doesnt affraid of anything!
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:31 No.11561093
    I roll on the table, in plain sight.

    They are all just sort of wowed.

    The only time I don't roll incredibly well is when I use this one orange d20 of mine.

    Every single time I have rolled it it has come up as a 1. I stopped using it.

    When the DM was going to roll and attack against me, I handed him the awful die.
    It was a 20.

    That die just hates me.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:31 No.11561095
    The principles remain much the same. You're entering an unknown area filled with hostiles, in many cases the monster's actions and motivations fit with the counter-terrorism idea.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:32 No.11561107
         File1281148368.gif-(1.56 MB, 368x265, hammertime.gif)
    1.56 MB
    'Lets spring the trap with the hammer!"
    "Nothing could ever go wrong."
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:33 No.11561113
    Shark, do not take improved unarmed strike. Take Weapon Focus
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:33 No.11561118
    20 lb sledges still don't do sneak attack damage...
    >> Shas'o R'myr !!J5+vjygjQuK 08/06/10(Fri)22:33 No.11561122

    That's why you get the fighter to do it.

    Wait, 20 pound sledge made fighters useful!

    >Hammer sushi
    >Right you are, captcha.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:34 No.11561136
    Crit x4

    Don't need it
    >> Tomathy Jones !MfG2qlRHks 08/06/10(Fri)22:35 No.11561138
    >endurance, diehard, combat expertise, improved unarmed attack
    What I've just listed are feats that you should need to get rid of and trade for something else.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:35 No.11561140

    Oh yah a 20 lb sledge of course, why does anyone in Mouseguard sneak away from owls and crows when all the have to do is use a 20 lb sledge oh right a mouse can't possibly lift it

    OP, you're a fucking retard.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:36 No.11561152
    You're retarded, he needs combat expertise
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:36 No.11561154
    except that D&D isn't that subtle. Other than traps, its rather straightforward, and every example the OP gave would work in game terms.

    he should have threw the hammer. 20 lb sledge is more than happy to go it alone for the good of the party!
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:36 No.11561161
    You're an idiot
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:36 No.11561162
    As I recall, official stats for sledgehammers in d20 is as per warhammer. So 1d8/x3.
    >> Tomathy Jones !MfG2qlRHks 08/06/10(Fri)22:37 No.11561164
    >implying that Combat Expertise is good
    It's not.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:37 No.11561165
    Can a 20 lb sledge make a bluff check?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:37 No.11561175
    >Barbarian walk up to door, leans 20lb sledge against it
    >Waits 10 seconds says "Sledge hears nothing"
    >*hammers door in* room full of Ogre Magi
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:38 No.11561180
    well you could bluff if you are or are not holding a 20 pound sledge behind your back so in a way yes.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:38 No.11561186
    D&D is exactly as subtle as the group makes it. A group relying on effective surprise, speed, and awareness is much more effective than one that just slams through every challenge. Not to mention that a 20lb sledge isn't going to do fuck all to many doors. Even with a wooden door, we're looking at hardness five, which means it's going to take at least a few rounds to hammer through it. Open Lock is a full round action, a rogue with a decent bonus can pop open a lock in six seconds.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:39 No.11561188
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    >"Sledge hears nothing"
    >> Shas'o R'myr !!J5+vjygjQuK 08/06/10(Fri)22:39 No.11561190
    I am officially naming my character's 20 pound sledge "Party Rogue."

    >involuntary marimba
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:39 No.11561194
    I'm asking if the hammer itself could make a bluff check.

    ...I feel like making a 20 pound sledge construct for use in my next campaign.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:39 No.11561196
    You're wrong.

    Also it's a pre-req for a lot

    Stop being stupid
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:40 No.11561203

    asspained rogues, mad at their sudden irrelevance.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:40 No.11561205
    Wait, what happens if you give the party thief a 20 pound sledgehammer?
    >> Tomathy Jones !MfG2qlRHks 08/06/10(Fri)22:41 No.11561213
    Unless he's going to be tripping--and I'm guess that he's not going to because he lacks the feat--he doesn't really need Combat Expertise. Especially since it sucks.
    >> Shas'o R'myr !!J5+vjygjQuK 08/06/10(Fri)22:41 No.11561219

    20 pound sledge kills the rogue.

    20 pound sledge hates competition.

    >raspier of
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:43 No.11561232
    Also, rogues are the only ones that can actually find most traps. Enjoy having every trap in the dungeon depleting your resources as you make your through.
    >> Shas'o R'myr !!J5+vjygjQuK 08/06/10(Fri)22:44 No.11561250

    Clerics can actually find traps as well.

    Cleric with 20 pound sledge is your rogue.

    >Havas understand
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:44 No.11561261
    actually, in 3.5 D&D a cleric will have a higher wisdom and will spot traps easier than the rogue randomly, and a Wizard will search for them better. Spot and Listen are wis skills and Search is Int.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:45 No.11561264
    There are also things that a 20-lb. sledge can do that a rogue would not be able to do:
    - survive without air for six days straight
    - survive being submerged in water for a month
    - be repeatedly struck against a wall until a tunnel formed

    Screw you, lazy rogues.. you're outgunned and outclassed.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:45 No.11561269

    and elves. It's an Elvish sledgehammer. Now what?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:46 No.11561275
    ...if somebody adopts a defensive stance right in front of you, are you going to fucking stand around and engage him?

    No, you aren't. You're going to go for the people who are less protected.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:47 No.11561288
    You forget a key point in the matter: they don't have the ability that arbitrarily lets them find traps unless they want to waste spell slots on it.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:48 No.11561295
    How many traps do you reasonably expect to find in a given day?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:49 No.11561314
    20lb sledge of returning...For higher level games.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:50 No.11561338
    D&D was designed with the idea of dungeons being loaded with traps in mind. They're meant to be every bit as big a threat as the monsters.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:51 No.11561342
    so what if you...

    Take a 20 pound sledge, drill a hole through the handle, then tie a rope through it?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:51 No.11561351
    Add in a few other traits:
    >of Mercy
    - does subdual damage on command
    >of Wounding
    - when mercy doesn't send the proper message
    >of Flaming Burst
    - when wounding seems too subtle
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:51 No.11561353
    You find out that throwing a 20lb sledge is not easy.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:52 No.11561359
    No that is what u make the thief go do.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:52 No.11561361
    You have a cheap boat anchor?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:53 No.11561375
    Improvised grappling hook?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:55 No.11561407
    >20 lb. sledgehammer of returning
    Thief, go fetch the hammer. Its down that five-hundred foot cliff, I think.
    >20 lb. sledgehammer of flaming burst
    When I give the signal, which is striking them in the groin with the sledgehammer, you set him on fire, thief.
    >20 lb. sledgehammer of wounding
    When he's curled up on the ground after I strike him and he's already on fire, give him a few boots to the head to add to his misery.
    >20 lb. sledgehammer of mercy
    Nah. I'll just thwack him with the handle. He seems a nice enough guy.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/06/10(Fri)22:56 No.11561426
    *Intelligent/item familiar sledge hammer equips monocle of trap finding and triggers trap.*
    any magical item can replace a rogues trap finding ability.
    >> 01011001 !!q8KxB04TJME 08/06/10(Fri)22:57 No.11561448
    A barbarian with a death wish works pretty well too.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/06/10(Fri)22:58 No.11561450
    sorry rouge^.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)22:58 No.11561455
    No one has explained how a sledge hammer can replace stealth, subtlety, and skill with negotiation (and no, threatening them with a sledge is not an answer, anything worth negotiating with will just waste you for that). It's a retarded premise. If we had went with "wizards can replace rogues", we'd have been cooking with gas, but this is just stupid.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:00 No.11561485
    >> 01011001 !!q8KxB04TJME 08/06/10(Fri)23:00 No.11561489
    I think your fun is broken. Come back when you get it fixed.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:01 No.11561499
    wow. you are butthurt.

    We're saying that "Stealth, subtlety, and skill with negotiation" are not needed when you have the might of a 20 pound sledge on your team. Anyways, that's what the bard is for. Rogue is unnecessary and not a credit to team
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:01 No.11561501
    But this isn't fun, it's just stupid.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:01 No.11561502
    Get a Bard, he does it better.
    >> 01011001 !!q8KxB04TJME 08/06/10(Fri)23:02 No.11561510
    Grasp rod, remove from ass.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:03 No.11561526
    is your ass a type 1 bag of holding? because you seem to have a lot of immovable rods shoved in there.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:04 No.11561539

    Wizard 16 strength carries 20 Sledge. Now wizard thief without multiclassing.

    >Captcha unloved artists
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:06 No.11561561
    Not to worry, 20 pound sledge can help with those too!

    Sledgehammer of Disjunction
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:06 No.11561562
    hohohohoho, this made me chuckle

    but seriously who plays D&D seriously(/efficiently) with an expectation of long term survival?

    just play in a manner that keeps you and the others in your group amused and you cant go wrong.

    that and you can always disguise the sledgehammer as a walking stick or other non-threatening/diplomatic item.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:07 No.11561572
    Hey, that'd take care of those magical traps that were mentioned earlier, too
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:07 No.11561575
    >No one has explained how a sledge hammer can replace stealth, subtlety, and skill with negotiation (and no, threatening them with a sledge is not an answer, anything worth negotiating with will just waste you for that).
    Allow me the honor enlightening you.
    A rogue dressed for a dungeon crawl will be covered in knives and anti-trap gear, plus his own supply of weapons. A sledgehammer can be disguised as a tool. So, we've covered stealth, as sledgehammers don't talk, make more noise than you force them to or engage in inter-party bickering. Plus, they rarely, when ever, steal from fellow party members. So, +1 to the hammer.

    Subtlety: a lost art with a man covered in maneuverable armor, weapons and tools; to a tool, its a given - it will not be lying to people, nor trying to gain the upper hand in deals it makes. Its very much an honest device. +1 to the hammer, again.

    Skill with negotiation? Easily done, once again, in the hammer's favor. A rogue requires either guile or a reputation, frequently both. A sledgehammer has an existing stock of legends, stories and folklore, all well-established by every in-game culture. It needs no boasts or bardic sagas - every major industry has use of them, in some capacity, so it has a wide skill set, or at least, wide application thereof. Rogues? Plenty of skills, sure - but not where it'll count the most: dependability, honesty, trustworthiness. Its got integrity, and integrity goes a long way.
    >It's a retarded premise. If we had went with "wizards can replace rogues", we'd have been cooking with gas, but this is just stupid.
    Wizards with sledgehammers? Now, we're cooking with gas.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:07 No.11561580
    Why wouldn't they be necessary? It's more preferable to spend anywhere from 15-3 rounds breaking down a door (depending on damage rolls) while alerting everything in creation to your presence when you could potentially pop it open in one with no noise and still maintain the element of surprise? It's more preferable to take damage from potentially dozens of traps so you can smash them with a sledge (an act I might add that doesn't work on magical traps) when you could bring a rogue along and find them before they activate? It's more preferable to be caught unaware by an ambush when you could have had another chance to see it before it was sprung? It's more preferable not to have an effective ace in the hole with a well planned first strike and be forced to start combat with the enemies at an advantage (remember, you already alerted them to your presence, they've prepared)? This premise is retarded. Also, bards suck harder than rogues.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/06/10(Fri)23:08 No.11561587
    stealth- intelligent hammer is tossed is places in a castle or warcamp and the party leaves, The item is retreaved at a later time and tells all.

    subtlety- in a fucking D&D game, you gotta be shitting me.
    skill with negotiation by force- "yeah see my buddy sledge over there, he wants to beat the sweet ever living crap out of you and open your skull like a pinata.
    I may be able to talk him out of it if you cooperate with us.
    skill with negotiation not by force - negotiate a truce? hope the rouge has skill points up the ass to talk some sense into 2 people who have been doing this their entire life and running kingdoms.
    what you want to negotiate/haggle? have the sledge hammer offer his services to take care of any errands he might need done.
    want to negotiate with a dragon? no.... do what he says or he will eat you.
    It's a retarded premise. If we had went with "wizards can replace rogues", we'd have been cooking with gas, but this is just stupid.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:08 No.11561591
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:09 No.11561596
    You could have an Intelligent Sledgehammer listen to the door! :D
    >> 01011001 !!q8KxB04TJME 08/06/10(Fri)23:09 No.11561599
    >Also, bards suck harder than rogues.

    You just went full retard.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:09 No.11561603
    >15-30 rounds
    Don't take out the door; take out the lock or the hinges.

    So much for spending the afternoon battering the door down.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:11 No.11561627
    Where are the rules for that? All I see is a statement that wooden doors have 5 hardness and 15 hitpoints.

    They do, they have less skills, less utility in combat, and in exchange they get some minor buffs for a party and a spell list that quickly loses relevancy.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:12 No.11561633
    sorry rogue, the party has decided to give your treasure shares to the 20 pound sledge.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:13 No.11561655
    My god, summer /tg/ really is stupider.
    >> Colt10mmGuy 08/06/10(Fri)23:14 No.11561669
    Can a 20 lb sledge have the mono and exterminator upgrades?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:15 No.11561689
    what are those from
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:16 No.11561695
    There are rules for the hardness and HP of various materials depending on their thickness. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out!
    >> Colt10mmGuy 08/06/10(Fri)23:17 No.11561709
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:17 No.11561714
         File1281151073.jpg-(31 KB, 375x178, ouch.jpg)
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    Pg. 167, PHB 3.5, upper right corner.
    Pic related; its you being wrong.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/06/10(Fri)23:18 No.11561716
    oh noes a locked door. wait dont we have Acid flasks? hey what about those gloves of rusting. hey wizard do you have anything that can rod the wood, bend metal, or melt this door? of wait you have a invisible servant that can appear on the other side by looking through the key hole and open it from the other side.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:19 No.11561732
    Hardly, it just says the DM can ad-hoc the DCs for weak locks. Says nothing about targeting hinges or the like.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:19 No.11561739
    You're overcomplicating things.

    Try pouring water under the door, then looking at the reflection, instead. Same concept, but it works even if the keyhole is blocked by.. I dunno.. anything.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:21 No.11561752
    Oh noes, a locked door, let me try acid against a 5 hardness, let me use a 1/day and highly expensive magic item, let me waste spell slots that could be better spent on an encounter, let me pray there is a key hole that goes through to the other side visibly so I can waste a spell slot. GG, moron.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/06/10(Fri)23:21 No.11561755
    when targeting an unmoving item, dont you auto hit? dont you deal max damage?
    target hing, use sledge hammer to break IT not the DOOR
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:21 No.11561759
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:21 No.11561760
    You really are stupid.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:22 No.11561766
    Someone make OP post into a picture.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:22 No.11561776
    Hinges have the hardness of iron and no, you don't do max damage, though you do auto-hit.

    Acid damage doesn't void hardness, sonic damage does.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/06/10(Fri)23:22 No.11561778
    if your party relies on a rouge that much to 'OPEN A LOCKED DOOR' by all rights they should be killed.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:22 No.11561779
         File1281151374.jpg-(17 KB, 365x87, ouch2.jpg)
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    I see you didn't bother to check the actual page, and just blindly stared at the image without grasping the actual concept. As your Aspergers' appears to be a significantly advanced case, play with yourself while you look at this picture, from the page in question, in the area of the page mentioned previously.

    Again, pic related; you being wrong, still.
    >> 01011001 !!q8KxB04TJME 08/06/10(Fri)23:24 No.11561805

    First fucking sentence.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:24 No.11561808
         File1281151485.jpg-(46 KB, 600x375, Homewrecker-600x375[1].jpg)
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    Don't blunt weapons also do full damage to things like skeletons, constructs and living statues?

    Pesky engineer? Take care of it with the 20 pound sledge!
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:25 No.11561821
    >he pointed out that I don't know the rules, he must have aspergers.

    Sorry bub, you're wrong. There are no rules for targeting the hinges of doors. Also, crowbars and portable rams fall under that "HEY, WE REALLY WANT FUCKING EVERYTHING TO KNOW WE'RE HERE" and are only viable if your DM only throws carefully selected level balanced challenges at you.
    >> Colt10mmGuy 08/06/10(Fri)23:25 No.11561829
    So can I add mono and exterminator to a 20 lb sledge or not?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:26 No.11561840
    For a moment, OP, I managed to forget what a shithole /tg/ has been lately. Thank you for that.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:26 No.11561842
    That just specifies that damage isn't divided before hardness, it says nothing of ignoring hardness.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/06/10(Fri)23:26 No.11561845
    sonic damge you say, I'm sure a caster such as a wizard, bard, cleric, sorcerer, or warlock should have something or an adequate inventory of magical items that mimic this effect that they are able to use.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:27 No.11561850
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    I hope you're not the same guy I've posted to twice about. That.. would be kind of funny, mostly kind of sad.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:27 No.11561854

    If one of my players said he wanted to target a hinge, I would decide if it was exposed or not, and give him bonuses as such. DM's rules trump all.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:28 No.11561858
    Enjoy wasting resources when the rogue could do it for free.

    Must state it again, it doesn't void hardness. The damage is just applied in full and then reduced by hardness as normal.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:28 No.11561866
    Our paladin tried to set off a trap at range with an eleven foot pole.....light bolt to the hole party and everything else in the halway
    >> 01011001 !!q8KxB04TJME 08/06/10(Fri)23:28 No.11561876
    >when the rogue could do it for free.

    But that's just it, having another party member splits loot and treasure further. It's hardly free.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:29 No.11561880
    check with your DM but yeah I'm pretty sure.

    Playing DH and hunting heretics? use a POWER SLEDGE.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:29 No.11561892
    You make it sound like you could cut down on party members. You're going to have the same number of people regardless, you're a group. And rogues contribute in a variety of ways, as you still haven't explained how this sledge invalidates their other talents or their in combat contributions.
    >> MR. RAGE !D9l9S8Lio6 08/06/10(Fri)23:30 No.11561897

    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:30 No.11561906
    thats why you need a sledgehammer of disjunction. One tap and that magic trap is gone
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:31 No.11561913
    No you Mr. Rage, I had assumed you possessed of more foresight than this.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:31 No.11561924
    That's why you need a sledgehammer of a 9th level spell that covers a wide area at will.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:32 No.11561936
         File1281151961.jpg-(142 KB, 775x582, ouch4.jpg)
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    Ah. Apparently, you're also unclear about:
    - object size in relation to AC
    - object hardness
    - intuitive thinking
    Its cool. Thinking am hard, so I've provided you with a chart, to .. y'know.. help you along, until you can fake it.

    Given that different doors will have different sizes (ie: the lair of a huge red dragon's front door will be vastly different in scale and materials than say, an Orcish bakery or a Gnmish fish market, to cite a few ultra-common locales), the idea at work is to try out the ol' brain and give it a whirl.

    You're ill-equipped to handle this, I know.. but you'll overcome the more public aspects of your handicap, eventually.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:32 No.11561940
    Sledgehammer of dispell magic?

    doesn't matter.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:33 No.11561946

    Thief's cut is 1000 GP from last game..that sure buys a lot of replacement items...but Most of the thief's functions are covered by said sledge....
    >> MR. RAGE !D9l9S8Lio6 08/06/10(Fri)23:34 No.11561960


    >locksmith Kazunori
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:34 No.11561961
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    OP, how does it feel to be fucking awesome?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:34 No.11561963
         File1281152064.jpg-(84 KB, 400x325, rustmonster.jpg)
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    >Need to foil a trap? Spring it at range with a 20 pound sledge.

    The trap springs open, releasing a hungry-looking rust monster.

    >Open a door? Break it open with a 20 pound sledge.

    The door splinters open, revealing a nest of rust monsters.

    >unlock a chest? Just jam a spike into the hinge and hit it with a 20 pound sledge.

    Some sadistic bastard left a rust monster in the chest.

    >Need to pick a pocket? why bother, just hit them with a 20 pound sledge then rifle their pockets while they are out cold.

    In their pockets you find:
    2 pencils
    1 ball of string
    8 raisins
    1 rust monster

    >need to disrupt a perfectly balanced counterweight? hammer throw a 20 lb sledge at it.

    the counterweight was the only thing holding the wooden portcullis to the rust monster pens closed.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:34 No.11561970
    That picture seems irrelevant, it hasn't disproven anything I've said. You can sling insults all you like, but until you prove yourself right, you've accomplished nothing but making your lifespan effectively shorter by wasting this time.

    I'm not seeing anything for hinges. They're part of the door, an object that has its own rules for being broken.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:35 No.11561972

    You don't even need to attack the door to get in. This is medieval times. At most all you'll need to do is break off the doorknob with a little bit of force, then you can open the door. is not rocket science
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:36 No.11562001
    They are not covered by said sledge, as I've pointed out repeatedly. Everything the sledge does cannot be done without considerable risk and considerable noise. You may scoff and say that subtlety in D&D is pointless, but subtlety is the difference between them being ready for you with their potions readied, their ranged weapons aimed, and their best buffs in use and them sitting around playing cards.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:37 No.11562006
    In your world, could someone break, say... an ice cube?

    A single inch of solid ice, commonly found in a beverage, typically a frosty one.

    ...wait, no?

    Holy hot dicks from Hell, you've got unbreakable ice cubes!

    Contact every bard in the region, this shit is some serious epic saga stuff going on over here!

    ..or you could ... y'know... consult a chart.. or wing it.

    So... ice cubes. Yep.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:38 No.11562019
    not if you breach like a swat team with the sledge or ram.

    Have the fighter breach with the ram, the wizard throw in the smoke or the flash then just enjoy your surprise round.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:39 No.11562025
    One room cleared and a dungeon of well aware monsters to go. Or are all the adventures in your games one encounter long?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:39 No.11562034
    >Barbarian "Thief" bangs on door with sledge for 15
    >Rounds. Party steps back into hall buffs up, knocks
    >"Gets ready" monsters(ETC) open door to
    >Investigate. Best thief ever.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:40 No.11562037
    You're all missing the best advantage of the party thief.

    Dragon bait. Dragons... they will not be baited with a 20 lb. sledge.
    >> 01011001 !!q8KxB04TJME 08/06/10(Fri)23:40 No.11562040
    Are you suggesting just letting the party rogue assassinate everyone while the rest of the party sits around and jerks off? Because that's significantly more boring.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:41 No.11562055
    well fuck by that logic the monsters would be well aware anyways.

    Combat is a loud, noisy thing. Wizards chanting spells, Fighters clashing steel against steel, its noisy as fuck and they would have been aware anyways.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:41 No.11562056
    Buy glitter and apply it with some glue.
    Congratulations, you've got a semi-blinged out sledgehammer.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:42 No.11562062
    Which is why any character with training in theivery in 4th edition can defeat those things.

    Quite Frankly I rather like my Warlock Thief

    Captcha also enjoys the 20 lbs sledge theif.

    >teethe and

    Misery Lots of Misery on the floor
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:42 No.11562063
    According to the elite array (you know, the stat array used to playtest the game), a fighter is going to have a 15-17 strength, depending on race. So compared against the DC 18 of a door to be broken down, he's going to succeed around 25-30% of the time. A rogue with a 15-17 dex and full ranks in open lock is going to succeed around 30-35% at first level against a common lock, next level those figures rise by 5% each and continue to rise, while the fighter's wont rise until 4th level.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:43 No.11562072
    GNome illusionist..Now sledge looks like tasty thief.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:43 No.11562076
    Combat can be considerably quieter than slamming down a door.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/06/10(Fri)23:43 No.11562079
    your telling me a magic user doesn't have plenty of scrolls on hand in case something like this came up?

    your telling me there is a ceiling that is slowly coming down and a door needs to be opened and no one in the group bothered to buy something to help them in any way shape or form?
    your telling me the group didn't stock up on magical items that could outright nip this in the ass?

    your telling me they didn't pull together can raise 3k worth of gold (unless they are mud farmers adventuring in the greatest drought and famine the world has ever seen and making gold worthless)
    to buy a chime of opening?

    your telling me the players are that stupid they can't think ahead?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:43 No.11562085

    Gold plated 20 pound sledge!
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:43 No.11562086

    Everbright enchantment.

    Smack the rust monster with the 20lb sledge whilst bellowing a throaty laugh.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:44 No.11562090
    D&D, any edition, only holds up until you realize the party sledge can easily be replaced by a 20 pound hobbit and some thieves' tools.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:44 No.11562095
    You're telling me those resources couldn't be better spent?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:44 No.11562097
    After consulting a few relevant charts, hearing anything in a dungeon seems to be a whole lot of hard work, really.
    Every room you've cleared, if you've left it devoid of life, contains zero people to help sound the alarm.

    Add in every intervening wall, door and passageway and its officially improbable to be heard further away than a couple of hundred feet, unless you've got some seriously solid-statted critters tuning in to every mouse fart and bat crapping, all day, every day.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:45 No.11562108
    Not really. what's the noise of one loud bang of a door collapsing vs several loud bangs of fireballs going off or the death screams of the dying goblinoids
    >> 01011001 !!q8KxB04TJME 08/06/10(Fri)23:45 No.11562116
    >unless you've got some seriously solid-statted critters tuning in to every mouse fart and bat crapping, all day, every day.

    At which point stealth would hardly work anyway.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:46 No.11562120
    > implying any but the most idiotic monsters or the most sublimely lucky parties will be able to achieve 100% lethality in every room of a dungeon.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:46 No.11562131
    Potentially minutes of banging and the monsters in the room sounding the alarm versus an average of 6-18 seconds of quick fighting.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:47 No.11562139
    Exactly. My vote is to replace the party rogue with a sledgehammer and give the unholy listening post creatures a severe headache, followed by a more severe headache.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:48 No.11562155
    So, your adventuring group is prone to leaving survivors behind it?

    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:48 No.11562159
    several minutes. Its a fucking wooden door not a fucking bank vault

    Captcha: hot naughty
    It seems all this talk of banging is turning captcha-tan on
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:50 No.11562188
    Right, and combat with the monsters wouldn't alert everybody in the dungeon anyways?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:53 No.11562218
    Check out the DC increases for hearing something loud, after filtering it through multiple stone walls, unless you're playing in the Pathfinder module "Escape from the Paper-Mache Hacienda".
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:53 No.11562219
    1d8 damage versus a hardness of 5 or around a 25% success rate for breaking it down (which I might add does not need the sledge).

    You ever take a sledge to something? You can produce sounds in the low gunshot range for noise. Fighting is a fuckload quieter.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:54 No.11562237
    Why would it be filtering through multiple walls? There are monsters in the halls and that's where you'd be hitting the door.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/06/10(Fri)23:54 No.11562242
    monsters are moot. they would be slaughterd, the door is the problem and the sledge hammer has solved it as well as replaced the rouge.
    rouges are now obsolete, his job has been split up between the rest of the party, and 1 sledge hammer.
    there will be no back stabbing or stealing from party members.

    as I see it, the person playing the rouge should man up, toss his character sheet away and make something a little more useful, like a halfling monk.

    instead of tossing obstacles l in my way try telling me 20 things a rouge can do that a sledgehammer can't. and they have to be useful.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:54 No.11562243
    >You can produce noise in the low gunshot range
    I have seen no rules for this. As >>11561821, rules are important. Intuitive thinking isn't.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:55 No.11562251


    My god.

    I must see her.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:55 No.11562258
    You're clearly not interested in actually listening. I'm done with this thread. You heard it here first, stealth is worthless.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:56 No.11562259
    Behind every door, monsters, monsters everywhere.

    Does your GM have any non-monster-filled rooms in his dungeons?
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:57 No.11562267

    Regarding the OP: rogue backstabs can turn the tide of a fight, man. Your sledge hammer just can't compare.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:57 No.11562272
    Argument one: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and Thief.
    >Proven time old tested "The norm"

    Argument two: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and any character w/ 20lb sledge.
    >Higher survivability in combat, sledge replaces more >than half the functions thief provided.

    Argument three: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and 20ln sledge.

    >Loosing 4th party member for combat. Retains 50+% of thief functionality. More risk more reward and experience for party.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:57 No.11562279
    Make a Hide check.
    Apply Power Attack.
    Reap benefits.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/06/10(Fri)23:58 No.11562286
    bard, animate object
    send him in first
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:59 No.11562292
    Its also cheaper to feed, house in the local inn and doesn't catch the attention of the city guard when it crawls out to do its own side quests.
    >> Anonymous 08/06/10(Fri)23:59 No.11562297
    Can sledgehammers detect traps?
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:00 No.11562305
    >half-orc fighter in plate mail making a hide check

    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:01 No.11562321
    Throw it down a suspect corridor; if it can be retracted by a length of cord tied around its handle, its more likely safe-ish to walk in. Bounce it off of doors to check if its also trapped; if it detonates into geckos and confetti, the door is probably trapped.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:01 No.11562322
    Tell that to the plants, constructs, undead, oozes, and other enemy rogues.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:02 No.11562333

    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:02 No.11562339
    Or, you could hand it to someone wearing less of an appliance store.

    Your call.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)00:03 No.11562348
    doesnt need to, he will set them off, he is a creature now and he weighs 20 lbs.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:04 No.11562365
    >Wizard with shit-tier attack bonus and a staff trying to sneak attack

    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)00:05 No.11562377
    you hear that guys, he is finally coming around.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:05 No.11562380
    This is glorious. I am imagining a summit of D&D classes, the representative of the rogue droning on and on about how they deserve a greater cut of the party shares, when the bored barbarian representative interrupts.

    "This is preposterous. Anything a rogue can do, a 20 pound sledgehammer and a few spikes can do."

    Silence blankets the room for a few moments as the realization sets in.

    Then pandemonium as each class representative responds in their own way to this realization.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:06 No.11562388
    It is when half the party is wearing full plate.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:06 No.11562393
    Wow, you mad.
    >Wizard with Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength and Haste.
    I'd rather he gave it two shots to the Half-Orc Fighter, all told. In his hands, its more likely to both hit and do damage, as well as keep my meatwall in a more strategic location.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:06 No.11562396
    Further proof that barbarians are actually geniuses.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)00:06 No.11562403
    that gave me chills.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)00:09 No.11562428
    wait. dire sledgehammer....... or even .... a maul
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:09 No.11562429

    Enlighten me as to how this is done.

    You see a long dark hallway. In the middle of the hallway, you see many skeletons resting on what appears to be a pile of sticks. At the end of the hall is a door that looks like it's been opened recently. Or at least a lot more recently than anything else in this dungeon.

    How do you detect this trap with a sledge hammer without being hurt?
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:10 No.11562440
    its a description of this thread, really
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:11 No.11562448
    What if you also applied a Symbol of Fear/Pain/Sleep/Death to the heads of it?

    Potent weapon is more potent.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:12 No.11562457
    is there a spell that lets wizards alter magnetic fields?

    If so have the wizard launch the sledge down the hallway like a railgun round.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:13 No.11562476
    Telekinesis could do that, in theory. Ditto most of the Bigby's-based spells.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:14 No.11562478
    thx OP, my next thief will be an enchanted sledgehammer with a higher Ego score than the poor sod carrying it

    captcha: liability SS
    >> 01011001 !!q8KxB04TJME 08/07/10(Sat)00:16 No.11562494
    The rogue sputters about how useful he is while everyone else pretty much agrees that the sledge is better?

    Yeah, that is pretty representative.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:16 No.11562504
    depending on the level of magic and the party I would throw the sledge at various suspect areas(Spot). Dragging it back as needed. You can add various magic to this as needed.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:16 No.11562506
    Sorry, I was trying to bait an edition war when I made this thread.

    you're welcome. Glad you had fun.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)00:18 No.11562518
    animate object (target hammer) have it walk the path.
    any pressure plate needing 20 lbs of pressure will be set off and any sensors.
    magical traps DC 20+: Detect magic - study to determine its information, spell craft check to determine its full ability (rune, firetrap, sigil)
    the wizard then explains how to get bass the traps.

    if all else fails send in the monk to set off all traps and not take a single point of damage.
    have the mage cast summon creature, and have them set them off. have the unseen servant drag a heavy item across the room.

    did I miss anything?
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:19 No.11562525
    well you said "any edition" there wasn't anything that pitted one edition against the other. There was however enough to pit rogues against the classes that matter, so we took up that fight instead.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:21 No.11562543
    Unseen Servants can only manipulate 20 pounds or less, but can drag up to a hundred pounds; if the trap is set for a higher weight value, it'd be worthless. Citation available.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:21 No.11562549

    Excellent. There's a hole in the door now. You can see something metallic through the hole, but can't quite make it out.

    You are now short a sledgehammer and have not yet triggered the pressure plate trap that's under the skeletons. You also have no idea it's there and will trigger it when you go to inspect the door.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:22 No.11562555
    Stupid edition war? Don't worry, 20 pound sledge replaces the rogue in both!

    (was joking)
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)00:22 No.11562559
    unseen servent fails, mong goes in and sets off all the traps, and avoids them skillfully.

    did I miss anything else??
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:22 No.11562565
    the skeletons will trigger it when they move, won't they?
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:23 No.11562568
    Grab Mr. Backup Sledgehammer.

    Why wouldn't I carry a spare?
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)00:24 No.11562588
    sorry MONG = MONK
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:24 No.11562599
    Give the monk the sledgehammer; have him destroy the traps while he's out there, to make it safer for the party to pass it by, if it can be destroyed in lieu of bypassing it.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:26 No.11562608

    Excellent, you trigger the pressure plate and suddenly the door at the end of the hall opens. You can make out what was behind the door now. Tons of loaded arrow traps! Time for a reflex check! If you fail you take 7d6 damage.

    Of course, if you had magnetically launched your sledge hammer, you'd have to deal with less arrow traps. So only 7d6/2 damage. Either way, you're still taking damage
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)00:26 No.11562611
    did I miss anything??!
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)00:28 No.11562640
    its a monk doing a reflex check, anyone else see a problem here? no? didn't think so.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:28 No.11562642
    My group has a running joke about my adamantine greatsword we called the "skeleton key". I'll leave it to your imagination as to how it got that name.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:30 No.11562651
    don't forget that technically the skeletons would provide cover so you have to roll the percentile for each dice.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)00:30 No.11562665
    it was key to killing skeletons? *rim shot and crickets ensue *
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:31 No.11562666
    It opens skeletons?
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:31 No.11562667

    I think the problem comes in with the wizard doing the reflex save. Seeing as arrows don't just stop after the monk avoids them and they aren't catching/smacking them all away unless he's an epic level monk.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:33 No.11562696
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    Can't count the number of times 20 str and a hammer has solved the party's problems.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:33 No.11562699

    Alright. DC is 19 as this is a level 7 campaign. Still a good shot at dodging though.

    The arrows sail past you and continue down the hallway. Who's behind you?
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:33 No.11562702
    What with the blasting effect of the supersonic sledgehammer, nobody thought to take cover?

    TPK as Darwin's law, man. Fuck 'em for being unprepared for an obvious outcome.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:34 No.11562713
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    We alway keep the druid in back
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:35 No.11562718
    Didn't arrow traps use a shitty attack roll instead of a reflex save? Not to mention you pulled that 7d6 out of your ass.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:37 No.11562747
    yeah this sounds like shades of Jack Chick's "Bitterleaf missed finding the trap, I declare thee dead" grudge trap.
    >> 01011001 !!q8KxB04TJME 08/07/10(Sat)00:38 No.11562753
    Yeah, it's usually like 1d8 damage with an attack roll. Just send the fucking barbarian in, trap sense exists for a reason, as does d12 HD.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:38 No.11562757
    someone archive this thread
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:38 No.11562760

    It's 7d6 because it's a bunch of arrow traps, did I not mention that? I'm pretty sure I did.

    I assumed a level 7 party here. Basic arrows traps are too simple for a level 7 party.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:43 No.11562796
    Since you've already pulled an arrow trap out of your ass, can you also get that stick out of there?
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:43 No.11562804

    Christ, if you really want to argue with the DM, I'd be a dick in this situation. I'm pretty sure it's a 10 attack roll+d6 of damage.

    So fine. Level 7 traps have about 18 attacks rolls or so, so there. 18 attack roll+7d6 damage. Still a big old pain in the ass.
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)00:46 No.11562831
    Wizard uses barricade bucker, swift action (faster than a free) to create a wall of force to appear blocking all arrows, "bring it on"
    4k-gp, insta mage saver.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:46 No.11562832
    protip: arguing with a DM is a great tactic to get him to forget mundane or easily overlooked details. Like for instance, this guy is so preoccupied by making this trap do damage that he's probably forgotten all about the poison that was going to be on the arrows. Especially if this is a trap that he pulled out of his ass instead of written down somewhere.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:47 No.11562835

    Thats actually pretty reasonable for an arrow trap. Thats 7 arrows from a short bow. If anything it should be 7d8 considering they would be shot from a light crossbow or the equivalent thereof at least as a hand crossbow would be stupid for a trap.

    As for calling BS on multiple arrows, have you even seen an arrow trap in a movie that only shoots ONE arrow? Fuck no, you see a fucking WALL of arrows coming at the hero/s
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:51 No.11562875

    Ah, I get it. So you only play wizards approved adventures right? I'm sure your sledge hammer will do fine in the tomb of horrors.


    Alright, you win. But in the end, your sledge hammer was useless.
    Now imagine if the trap flooded the room instead of using arrows.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:51 No.11562876
         File1281156704.jpg-(2.01 MB, 1980x1882, 1278874338618.jpg)
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    Can we go back to that whole wizard railgun thing?
    On to something with that.
    Or,alternatively,army of animated 20lb sledgehammers.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:57 No.11562928
    this thread... was a good thread.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)00:58 No.11562945
         File1281157133.jpg-(20 KB, 456x352, triple_h_sledgehammer.jpg)
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    sledgehammer > thief
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)01:08 No.11563044
    take into account that in order to reach maximum distance the arrow must be in a arching position.
    unseen servant is still around, you have a chance of hitting the hammer he holds.

    you forget. arrows do not seek out 1 target, the ones that missed should have made it over.
    unless you want us to make spot checks to see wooden stick on the ground, even though you said there were sticks under the skeletons.dronery xliii
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)01:20 No.11563157

    Nah, fuck it. I give up. You stopped them all.

    The point was just how ridiculous the premise is. A sledgehammer is equal to a rogue? You might as well say wizards are useless because there's scrolls and wands.

    By all this logic, one might as well just play dnd with a party of clerics and have one get use magic device.
    >> RAIL GUN! Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)01:21 No.11563167
    railgun,- levitate a mithral hammer of returning+Brilliant energy. cast Launch item. sending it 100+ feet.

    make a tube, or glove enchanted with "launch item spell" (note make it a higher lvl spell to increase the weight allowed to be launched. this, inturn, will negate the need for lavitate)
    now launch to your hearts content.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)01:24 No.11563190
    hammergun. I love it.
    >> RAIL GUN! Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)01:29 No.11563251
    if you make it into a tube, cast "true shot" and launch it into the balls of that lizardfolk shaman.

    I have a a few others.
    much like bag of boulders, which allows you to produce a rock from a bag, throw it, and then watch as it increases in size to become a massive boulder

    I came up with the ballista version.
    though to reload it, you need a dispell or have a recharge of 1 day for a new bolt to form.
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)01:31 No.11563267
    The rule of law, any edition, only holds up until you realize that government can easily be replaced by a shotgun.

    Need to provide clean drinking water? Shoot people and take theirs with a shotgun.
    Maintain roadways? Shoot the ground until it's nice and flat with a shotgun.
    Maintain public order? Just shoot all the troublemakers, and then shoot anyone who starts something anew with a shotgun.
    Need to establish a system of treaties and laws under which you can guarantee that travelers abroad will be safe and well-treated? Shoot it with a shotgun.

    Meet your new government, a shotgun.
    >> RAIL GUN! Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)01:32 No.11563290
    I'd vote for him! (just so I wont get shot.)
    >> Anonymous 08/07/10(Sat)03:59 No.11564950
    A shotgun breaches a door with greater stealth than a sledgehammer?

    WTF are you smoking faggot?
    >> Evil_Pie 08/07/10(Sat)06:41 No.11566055
    shotgun with a silencer

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